WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1472 - Aparna Nancherla

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

Aparna Nancherla says the self-fulfilling prophecy of imposter syndrome is convincing yourself you don’t belong and acting in a way to prove yourself right. It’s something she’s dealt with no matter what level of success she’s achieved in standup, writing and acting, and something she’s worked to overcome. Aparna and Marc talk about feeling like an outsider even while compiling a list of accomplishments, struggles with performance anxiety, and the persistent question, “What’s the point of anything?” Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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What the fuckadelics? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How are you? How's everything? How's the hike going? Today on the show, Aparna Nancherla is here. She's a comedian, actress, and writer. She came up in the alt comedy scene that was happening around the start of this podcast. She's written for Late Night with Seth Meyers, Totally Biased with Kamau Bell, and Inside Amy Schumer as well, and was a regular on the Comedy Central sitcom corporate. Her new book is called Unreliable Narrator, Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome. And she's been around a

long time. I'm glad we finally got a chance to sort of meet. But I mean, I've met her before, but this is the first time I really talked to her. You know how that goes. That's what this is about. So I know a lot of you are kind of on the edge of your seats about what's happening with my refrigerator repair guy. I don't know. To catch you up after all is said and done, after months of him, him and his son, him again, there's yelling, there was insanity, things were taken apart, broken freezer door. I mean, this is a journey. This is the refrigerator repair journey. journey. This is the refrigerator repair journey. But after all is said and done and most of the work was done, it worked for like three days, the ice maker, and now it's making the same noise it made when I first reached out, only a little worse. Now I'm leaning towards a new fridge, but it seems like a big undertaking. And I'm kind of weird about old machines and doing everything I can to get them to be new again. I think that's sort of maybe what I'm trying to do with myself as I approach 60 here in a matter of days. Wow. Nine days until I'm 60 years old.

until I'm 60 years old. Don't tell anybody. Nine days away. I haven't really given that big a shit about my birthdays in the past, even the ones that you think would mean something, 40, 50, maybe even 30. But this one seems significant, doesn't it? Seems like it's time to kind of wind down, turn the volume down a little bit, change the frequency to a lower one, kind of get into some lizard mode to kind of extend my experience here on this plane. plane. But in terms of the refrigerator, I don't know where we're at. I reached out to the guy, no response. I think we might be on taking a break from each other. I think me and my refrigerator repair guy, Alex, I think we're on a, he's kind of, I don't want to call it ghosting because my experience with him is that we end up getting back together again after a couple of weeks. We'll see what happens. I'm kind of over it though. I've had enough of this arc. I've had enough of this storyline, the broken fridge. I should just suck it up, get a new fridge or forget about ice or make ice by hand. How hard is it to do that? Fill a couple of trays. Who needs a fucking ice machine?

But that's always the case. I just wanted my machine to be what it was at some other time. Doesn't matter. I'll let you know how that goes. 60 years old. 60 years old. I'm just a little younger than my parents now that's the weirdest thing I think I've talked about it before is that because my parents had me so young and they're both still alive now that I'm approaching 60 that you know I have friends who are almost as old as my parents it's just it's not that the age gap closes but it certainly shifts they're just not that much older than me my mom's 22 years older than me. Right?

That's kind of crazy, isn't it? My dad's like 26 years older than me. Nuts, right? But now the gap is closing, but I imagine, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen with them. I'm going to see my dad this Friday because I will be at Wise Guys in Las Vegas tomorrow. That's Friday. Because I will be at Wise Guys in Las Vegas tomorrow. That's Friday.

Oh, my God. I'm going to see my dad tomorrow. And Saturday, September 22nd and 23rd for four shows. I'm in Bellingham, Washington at the Mount Baker Theater for one show on Saturday, October 14th. As part of the Bellingham Exit Festival. I'm sold out in Portland for October 20th through 22nd. Boston, I'm at the TD Garden for Comics Come Home on Saturday, November 4th. And I'll be in Albuquerque, New Mexico at the Chemo Theater for one show on November 11th.

Denver, Colorado, I'll be at the Comedy Works South for four shows, November 17th and 18th. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets to all of those. Okay. Also, I wanted to throw something out here. Like I felt bad the other day I was talking about St. Louis and all the things I did in St. Louis. And I couldn't remember the jock over at the KMOX station, I believe it is. Dave Glover was the afternoon drive time I did. We had a nice conversation about music, about aging, about all of that, but I couldn't remember his name, and I said, I think it might

have been Roger. It's not. It's Dave Glover. I just wanted to make sure I straighten that out, I just wanted to make sure I straighten that out Because after all that Love I gave to St. Louis And spacing his name out If he even noticed That's got to be That kind of stuff Stings a little bit

So Dave, I'm just doing this for you I hope you hear this It was a very pleasant conversation we had on your show Alright, little cat news Sammy seems to be evolving. Sammy, who I thought might had some sort of, might've been on the cat spectrum of some kind, which I guess all cats are, but he was just a little, not quite, not quite right. A little off, but all of a sudden he's turning into something else. He's just quirky. You know,

what do I expect out of cats? I mean, they're dumb. They're all dumb, but they're interesting. But yeah, Sammy is starting to come out of his shell is the point. So now I want to discuss a dream I had that I'm trying to put together. It's weird when you remember dreams, but here's what I remember. I remember I was asked by a couple of character actors, one who was in the seven ups, which I just watched and also the French connection. But I recognize they were character actors in my dream.

They told me that I needed to go kill a bunch of people, kill a bunch of Japanese people at this place. It was, they were Japanese mob or something. It wasn't AI, the place, and it wasn't a karaoke bar, but it was a reality themed bar. Yeah, it was a reality themed place. And there were going to be four or five that had to go and hang out with them and then shoot them with a pistol. And I remember that feeling in the dream that like,

I'm not a killer. I can't do that. I can't do it. What if I don't do it? And then the character actor was like, well, now you know about it. You have to do it because, you know, if you don't, the implication was that they would have to kill me. And I, I was pretty sure I would get killed if I tried to do it. But then somehow or another, I pulled it together and I was like, nah, I can do it. I can take them all out. And, uh, that was the end of the dream. I don't really know where to go with it, but I was able to sort of figure out why it was loaded up in my brain. Kit and I were talking about anime. That kind of fills in the Japanese element. I just gone and shot a gun. So that terms of the reality themed place, I like the idea of that, a reality themed anything. That's obviously because of all this news about AI. But look, I'm just happy that

I'm not a killer in my dreams or one in real life. But that moment in a dream where there there's something terrifying or something that you can't get out of the the idea that if i didn't do it they would kill me i felt that in real in a real mental and emotional way and there it's such a relief to wake up when you're in that feeling. Like just that moment is like, oh, my God. Thank God I didn't have to go kill all those people and probably get shot myself at the reality themed bar. The reality themed event. Anyway, as I said, Aparna Nancherla is a comic. She's got a book out. It's called

Unreliable Narrator, Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome. Having a convo, having a chat. Every veteran has a story. Whatever your next chapter, get support with health, education, finance, and more at veterans.gc.ca slash services. A message from the Government of Canada. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel.

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Okay. Now you're good. I just had to adjust the knobs. Everything is a question of adjusting the knobs. Yeah, all kinds of knobs. Internal knobs. Internal knobs. External knobs. Other people's knobs.

I know, I know. Those are the worst ones. Yeah. Because you can't, you have no control over them, really. Because you have your idea of the ideal settings and they have their idea of the ideal settings, and they have their idea of the ideal settings. Yeah, and then there's the factory settings. Yeah. Which none of us can override. That's right.

It's the worst. It's weird, because I don't know. When did I meet you? Do you know? No. I couldn't pinpoint an exact anecdote, so I figured it was the festival circuit or an L.A. show. Yeah? Yeah.

I remember meeting you, and it's weird because after I kind of went through your book a little bit. Yeah. And watched some stuff, you know, I'd seen you on stage before, but I just watched some other stuff to refresh my memory. Oh, sure, sure, that you're a consummate interviewer. Well, I don't know about that. But I always felt like there was something familiar and maybe something I couldn't handle. What does that mean? It means that I come from depressives.

Yes. And I am sort of wired by depression. Yes. And when you sense someone who has innate depression, there's a familiarity to it that inside you, you're just sort of like, all right, well, she can do her thing. Oh, yeah. I find that so strange with mental health where sometimes if you sense someone has the same general area of yours, you kind of, there is a little territoriality. What is yours like? Well, there's that, but there's also this sort of like fear.

Yes. That, you know, you're going to get, you know, reinfected. Oh, for sure. Especially with depression where I have friends with depressive. Yeah. And I'll be like, okay, I'm on an upswing right now. I really can't have you bringing me down. That's right. So call someone else for help.

Yeah. Well, yeah, it's odd because there are other similarities that I have. But, I mean, so when did you, where'd you grow up? I grew up outside Washington, DC in Northern Virginia. Oh, I have no idea. Like in Alexandria.

I went to high school near Alexandria, but I grew up in McLean, like near Lane. McLean. Yeah. There used to be a comedy show in Alexandria at a hotel there. Yeah. Chip Franklin used to run a show at the

Holiday Inn or one of the, it was just over from, I remember, you know, I used to do it when I was younger. What? Yeah. My first open mic was at a Best Western. Where? In McLean. Yeah? Yeah. What was the first comedy show you saw? I think Jim Gaffigan at the Improv. Oh, really? Yeah. In D.C.? Yeah. Oh, so before Jim was huge? I think it was when he had a couple CDs. I think it was before, yeah, he was doing like the big theaters.

But when you, like, what brought, why are your people in D.C. area? My parents are both doctors and they emigrated from India in the late 70s. Oh, really? Yeah. And like, do you still have a lot of family in India? Yeah, I would say still like most of my mom's family is there and about half of my dad's family. Really? Yeah.

Do you go? I used to go. I feel like as I've gotten older, I just haven't made the time or like, you know, it's been harder to schedule because I went a lot when I was a kid with my parents. Yeah? Yeah. That's a long trip. It is. We would always detour through Frankfurt or London.

So you have a relationship with India anyways. Yeah. But I have an older sibling and they were born in India and I was the only one born in the in the U.S. yeah how many sibs just one oh okay yeah just one older two years older but I I always kind of had this weird pride of being like I am the real American like when I which is in hindsight so shitty but you say that to your parents I'm the only one who deserves to stay. Yeah. Well,

it's kind of, I don't know about that part, but it is true. I guess it just on a, on a citizenship level, you're the, you know, real American.

Yes. Yes. But I grew up like during the height of the Gulf war. So I think I fully bought into the propaganda of like greatest country in the world. Really? Yeah. You got sucked right in?

I got sucked right in. I remember. How old were you? I think I was like seven or eight. Yeah. Seven or eight. Yeah. Oh, that's about.

Yeah, I think that's about right. It feels like late 80s, early 90s. Yeah. This is an answerable question, but I'm not going to. There's a way to find out, but not anything we could access. Yeah. Yeah. But so you got excited by being American because the news told you.

Yeah. And I was, like, all the careers I was interested in as a small child are all now, like, I would fully be canceled. Like, I wanted to be a cop. I wanted to be a soldier. Really? Yeah, yeah. So you have an older brother? Older non-binary sibling.

Oh, and what's that person do? They work in sort of public health, and they do a lot of, they're basically a somatic therapist. Oh, interesting. Like a therapist who specializes in somatic therapy. What does that mean? It's like a lot of body-mind connection. Have you tried it? I haven't tried it.

Really? But I think I need to, because I think I live very much in my head, and I need to be more attached to my body. It's hard when you have anxiety and depression to live in your head, because it's always not a great party. Yeah. I mean, like, and I know you write about it in the book, but like, if only I had more control over my imagination. Yeah.

Yeah. Because what it does on its own never goes to great place. Yes. You find that as well? Yeah. You're just confirming that? I mean, I feel like I have two flips. Because I feel like people who are prone to depression, anxiety, like we have, if we are comedians, we have kind of two sides of the same coin.

Where it's like, on one side, we're like, oh my gosh, the world, life doesn't mean anything. Everything's pointless. Like, why do I even wake up in the morning? But then the other side of it is also how you find jokes, right? You're like, why is this like this? Everything's so random. Well, I find, you know, when I tell my story over and over again, when people ask me why comedy is, because I felt that comics, when I watched them when I was a kid, were able to sort of disarm and make sense of pretty big things. Yes. No matter what they were. So I think for me, like my imagination isn't,

there's not two tracks. One is a comic and one is an anxious, depressive person. There's that track. And then there's the one that tries to make sense of it and make me feel better. Yes. And then look for at least some validation from other people that I'm not, you know, a fucking weirdo. I mean, I think I turn to comedy to connect with other people, but I think ultimately I still feel outside of everyone else. Yeah, because we don't live like normal people. Yeah.

That's the choice we made. Yeah, but we don't live like normal people. Yeah, that's the choice we made. Yeah, but I think I already felt that. And then I was like, I'll just embrace a lifestyle that confirms that. Oh, yeah, well, that's good to be less comfortable, but at least have a job in that world of discomfort. But I mean, people call comedians modern day philosophers. And I am that's a new mission. It's I don't like that but I do feel like sometimes as someone who is self-employed and waking up at 11 and then you know wandering to my living room and being like this is my job like I I do feel like sometimes I'm paid to think and that feels wrong yeah well that's interesting I guess we are paid to think I I generally uh

Yeah, well, that's interesting. I guess we are paid to think. I generally usually go with paid to talk. Yeah. But you do a lot more writing than I do. So, like, when I was going through the book, though, when you say that you felt a sort of weird patriotism and more American, that sort of followed you through elementary school? Yeah. I mean, I think I fully bought into the Army ads where it was like, be all you can be. And I was like, yeah, that's the point. But you didn't feel like an outsider when you were a little kid? I did. I think maybe that also was what attracted me to those sort of patriotism things to feel like part of something. Because I very much didn't

feel like I fit in with my classmates. And I was like, well, at least this would give me, I would be part of something bigger than me or would give me a sense of meaning in a way that I don't feel day to day. And what, like your parents, like, were they, have high expectations? Were they hard on you? Yeah, yeah, you know, South Asian parents have a reputation. You know, they were both doctors. I think they had a certain expectation we would become like doctors or some other. What kind of doctors?

Oh, your dad was an anesthesiologist. Dad, anesthesiologist, mom, endocrinologist. Endocrine system. Yeah. That's very specific. I know. It was one of those that you had to then explain. There was like a follow-up

explanation. People would be like, what kind of doctors are your parents? And then, what's an endocrinologist? Yeah. Yeah, because I think during my high level of hypochondria, I saw an endocrinologist. I don't know or remember what for. I always say it's like hormones and glands. Glands. Yeah. Glandular problems. It's a big gland area. Now, when they came over here, did they do their residency here? How did it work? My dad, I think, came here for his residency. And then my mom, I think, had an arranged marriage, moved here with my dad, but then got pregnant and then had to move back to India to finish med school. So they're in an arranged marriage?

Yeah. Oh, my God. That really stopped you cold. No, no, I've heard it before. I've talked to other people who have that in their family and certain people that have run away from it. I can't remember who I talked to whose mother maybe kind of got out of an arrangement. Maybe it was, was it Nimesh? I don't know.

It might have just been who I talked to just recently that there was an arranged marriage, but it was a bust. Oh, yeah, that happens. Yeah, and then here they married somebody else. Okay, yeah, that happens. Yeah, and then here they married somebody else. Okay, yeah, that's a refreshing twist. What is the religious background that you come from? Hindu. Yeah, I need to, every time I speak to somebody with an Indian background, I need to be explained how these religions and castes work. how these religions and castes work.

Well, to me, I think Hinduism, especially right now, is having a moment where it is almost like the, you know, the fundamentalist right here, like the evangelicals, where it's like there is a far right kind of Hindu. Is that who the prime minister is? Is that who Modi is? Yeah. And I feel like it's to the point of, like, you know, persecuting other religions, which is not obviously in the nature of it.

Nature of it. Yeah. But you were brought up with it. And what did did you go like as a family to what kind of house of prayer? I would say we were not like Orthodox or like practiced heavily, but we would we were like holiday Hindus, you know, go to the temple on the big holidays. Sure, yeah, I'm a holiday Jew. Yeah, yeah. And is that the vegetarian? Some are, because it kind of depends on what caste you are.

And I think if you're like a Brahmin, which is like the high caste, that's like pure, so you don't eat meat. But we were not raised, we were not Brahmins, so. Brahmins. Yeah. That's the, what is that, the ruling class or the? I think it's like the, like, wise, like, learned people. Oh, yeah. So you're a little vague on it.

And then I think the royals are below that. And then there is like the workers, which was our, yeah. Right, right, the workers, Yeah, the billions of workers. The faceless masses. So when you were growing up, how different did you feel in school and stuff? Did you... I mean, I think it was not just like being like a brown kid. Like I was also really shy and really anxious.

So I think I just like any difference I felt was compounded by just being scared all the time of everything. Yeah? Yeah. And I didn't have the words for it back then. Like I don't think I even thought of myself as an anxious person until. How would you know that when you were a kid? Yeah, you don't know.

Your parents didn't like take you to doctors? My mom was always trying to make me less shy. How'd that go? Not well. What were those exercises? I had to practice ordering pizzas over the phone. We would have weekly family pizza night and be like, you're going to place the order. It was terrifying.

Really? To talk to the pizza guy? They didn't. I mean, they don't have time. Well, they can be a little harsh. Yeah. They're busy. They're not getting paid enough and they're mad.

So would you bail in the middle of the call? No, I would do it, but I would like, you know, kind of black out and go to a different part of my brain. Because of a pizza ordering thing. I mean, I would just like memorize the order, like almost like an incantation and then just spout it out. This is interesting because I mean, the way you're talking about it, this is fairly specific trauma. They don't cover this in therapy school. The pizza ordering, you know, maybe you need to do some EMDR on that. It's tough to break into the EMDR circles, I find. I've been trying to find someone to do EMDR, and I keep finding therapists who do it, and then they're like, actually, I've sort of moved on from that. Really?

They don't want to do it. Really? I mean, I think people are still doing it, but they're just like, that's not what I'm excited about right now. It's a passing fad within the therapy community? I thought it was really effective. So I'm like, I don't know why it's so hard to get any of you to do it. I have somebody. Okay, great.

She's good. I love it. I'll take recs. Yeah. So, all right She's good. I love it. I'll take Rex. Yeah. So, all right. So, it goes on. When do you start having real problems? In terms of, oh, with the anxiety?

Or just like, yeah, and the body image stuff. Yeah, I mean, that was all college. I would say my official diagnosis of depression was when i was 19 oh and when did you wait because like the other thing the other weird thing that we have in common is when i was in high school yeah um i went to an orthodontist and oh my gosh and i had had braces on my teeth for a year and a half and then the the orthodontist said, well, they're not going to fix your bite. And one orthodontist, who we only went to once, thought I had acromeglia. What's that?

That's where your bones have a disease where they keep growing. There's a couple of famous horror actors. Rondo Hatton was one. And who else has acromeglia? Well, like, you know, what's his name? Andre the Giant. Like they never stop growing? Yeah.

And they become giant and their bones get disfigured. Oh, my God. So he's like, you might have this. And he showed me and my mother a picture of this head with this massive protruding jaw. And my mom's like, we're not going back to that guy. So we went to another guy. Do you think that guy takes that out for every person? Because that's his bit? Maybe that's his bit for underbites. So I had this underbite and this jaw that was exactly

what you described in your book. It would never meet. And the threat was your teeth are going to wear wrong. So we went to another guy and he's like, well, here's what has to happen is, you know, we'll take the braces off. Yeah. We'll break your jaw, reset it, wire it shut. Yep. And then you'll, you know, you'll have to deal with that. And then, you know, and then we'll put the braces back on. And I was in high school and I'm like, I'm good. Like my mother, like I didn't do it, but you did it. I did it, and honestly, I think you made the right choice. Well, what led you to that? Was it a similar thing?

Because I still have sort of an underbite. My teeth don't meet, and they're all kind of, my mouth's kind of fucked up. But, you know, I make do. And when my teeth goes out, I replace it. What do you mean when it goes out? When it just leaves your mouth? Well, because of either the bite or sort of aggressive brushing, my gums are not great. Oh, neither are mine.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it has something to do with the same thing. So, like recently, I had a tooth that was a root canal and then it was, it's just natural. I mean, I'm 59, but I did have another one put in. You know, it took a while. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's just natural. I mean, I'm 59. Yeah, yeah. But I did have another one put in. You know, it took a while. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, you can just.

And I don't think any of that is because of the jaw. No, I don't think so. Yeah. I don't, like, the only problem with not getting the surgery is, like, my bite literally only meets in two places. So, chewing food, you know, properly is difficult. And there's a lot of wear on, you know, there's a lot of tension on these two or three teeth. Well, I would say with the surgery, I still don't have all the feeling back in my chin. Oral surgeons are the worst at that.

I had a thing removed from my, like, there was a, you know, sometimes when you bite your lip and you get, like, a bubble? Yeah. Because you break a gland? Yeah. I had one of those removed by a guy. He's like, oh, yeah, the feeling will come back. It's like it didn't. So over here it's a little numb, but it's not big.

Oh, geez. But so did you have a choice about the, like, was it, because you kind of make it seem like there was part of a cosmetic thing. Yeah, I mean, it was more of a cosmetic thing. I think I was given the same spiel about like, you know, your teeth are going to be worn down. But he certainly wasn't like, it's critical that you get it. But I was like, no, I look weird. I need to fix this. Right. Especially if I'm going to go to Hollywood.

Right. How old were you? 20. How old was I? Oh, so this was like after. This was like late 20s. Oh, so this is after you go through the dark woods of self-realization. Yeah, yeah. So in high school, you just were okay with your java?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. I wasn't even thinking about being perceived. Yeah, that's an interesting part in the book, too. How did you know? How is that not a red flag of depression you just didn't what does that even mean that you weren't you weren't aware of being well okay I went to a very competitive high school like it was like a magnet school you had to take a test

to get in and honestly everyone there was like overachiever to the max. And I think everyone there was unwell. But because we were all in this system, no one thought like our dysfunctions were bad. So it was like everyone was socially awkward because they were kind of high performing mental people. Yeah. I mean, it would be the full range. It would be like popular kids that were good at sports and were like future, you know, politicians. And then like this kid who like, you know, still physically looks like five, but he can like build a bomb or something. Yeah. And you.

And me in the middle. Yeah. What were you specializing in at that time? I was I was just trying to keep my head above water, Mark. Yeah. Yeah. But you felt invisible or that you... Yeah, I think I just felt like a... I think a lot of kids are kind of maybe still in this cycle where you just think if you get into a good college, like everything will work out. So you're really just building towards that. You're like, I'm going to get good grades. I'm going to do the three to four extracurriculars. You know, I'm going to be treasurer of Spanish Honor Society or whatever.

None of that. I had none of that. That's the thing. Like, I talk to comedians and it feels like a lot of them are like, I never was into school. And I'm like, I wasn't into school, but I just did it because I thought that's what you were supposed to do. I guess I wasn't a rule breaker. No, but I mean, but your parents probably drilled something into you.

Yeah, yeah. I think the expectation was like, if you're not doing these things, then you are not a valuable. Yeah, I think my parents just put me in school. So, you know, they were like, as long as we don't have to deal with you, you go ahead and fend for yourself. Yeah. I don't remember doing homework throughout. At all? Hardly ever. You just opted out.

Until my senior year when my grades were so bad, it looked like I wasn't, like I decided I'm not going to college and that, you know, whatever happens, happens. I'll work in where I grew up. And then all of a sudden I realized, like, I got to get out. So my senior year I locked in and, you know, got straight A's. And it was enough to sort of, like, at least get me into introductory college. Yeah, yeah.

Wow. You had the opposite of senioritis. Yeah, which is usually you don't do the work. Yeah, yeah. Senioritis is like, I'm good. I did the work. No, I was full of is like, I'm good. I did the work. No, I'm full of, I was full of panic and I wanted out. I finally saw like, oh, this is an opportunity to get out. See, for me,

it was like, I worked really hard all of high school, even though my heart wasn't really in it. Like I never liked school. But you did well. But I did well because I thought that's what you were supposed to do. And, but then I got to college expecting like all these answers to show up and like me to figure out personal answers and just like figure out what I was passionate about. Cause I didn't really like anything in particular. And because I didn't, uh, discover that my freshman year, then I, then I, that's what sort of led to my mental crisis. Cause I was like, well, then what is the point of any of this? Really? Yeah.

It's weird that you said you felt sort of invisible because, like, I felt very awkward, but I felt kind of amoebic. Like, I just felt like if I could just attach myself on to someone popular, then it would give me definition. Oh, I mean, yeah, for sure. I also felt that way, but I also was like, that's not even an option for me. These people aren't even giving me interviews. So freshman year, the existential trap door opens? Yes. Because like you got there and you didn't know what to study.

You didn't know what your interests were. You thought it would be delivered to you magically by going, which college? Amherst. Oh, so you're out in the country. Out in the wilderness. With those other three schools. What's out there? Hampshire.

Hampshire's down the street. Smith. And UMass. UMass Amherst. UMass. Holyoke. Mount Holyoke. Yeah.

Pretty out there. It's very pretty. And Amherst is the small, nice one, right? It's the one that used to be all men. Oh, okay. Yeah. So you're out there, you're away from home, you're out in the a woman before me, I channeled my existential angst into body dysmorphia. Oh, you got that too?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what sort of predated the depression is like I really started restricting my eating and I had to take time off of school. In high school? No, no. This was the had to take time off of school. In high school? No, no. This was the beginning of the second year of college. But that had been going on before, the restricting? No, it really started, I think, when I was like, what is the point of any of this? But you didn't ever struggle with weight.

I think I struggled with it in the way I think a lot of women did in the 90s, where I was just like, why don't I look like this person on the cover of this magazine? Right. Yeah. So you kind of entered an eating disorder, body dysmorphia. Yeah. Yeah. I have that too.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I figure it's like more common than we think. Well, and I was brought up in an eating disorder house. Oh, got it. I was raised by a mother with an eating disorder. So I'm a legacy. Okay. You're grandfathered in. But I do understand that the problem in terms of the kind of pressure on women to feel like they have to be something that they're not based on these ideals is a broad problem. Yeah. And also like my mom is a doctor who treats diabetes.

So I think there was always like sort of an emphasis on like, what's a healthy diet? Like these are good foods. These are bad foods. So did you become danger? Did you become anorexic? I lost a lot of weight, but I think for me, it was also, I was running a lot at the time. So I think it kind of slipped under the radar because people are just like, oh yeah, you're really active. Like that makes sense. You're small. So you didn't, you didn't give them the backstory.

No. You hid the backstory and took their interpretation and said, yeah, that's what I am. Yeah. But I diagnosed myself. Like I, Like, you know, usually it's like, oh, we're worried about Aparna. Like, that's how the Lifetime movie goes. But for me, I was like, I'm worried about Aparna. Well, that's good. That's a voice from the darkness that you kind of need. I mean, it was sort of like a doctor,

you know, parents being doctors influence thing where I stopped getting my period for a bunch of months. And I was like, this seems wrong. So then I went to the clinic and they were like, yeah, you lost a lot of weight quickly. Have you noticed that? And I was like, no. Uh-huh. Yeah.

That was the other part of this story of the surgery on your jaw. Yeah. Is that, you know, when your dad's a doctor, which mine was, Oh, you know, you can always, you're always seeing your dad's friends. Yes.

For any sort of medical problem. Weird. It was, it's totally boundaryless. It's like, you know, I don't feel well. It's like,

I'll call Joe and we'll just go to his house. I'm like, can we not do it that way? Well, I also feel like my, like South Asian, you know, people sometimes don't have boundaries with others. So like my- Other South Asians, you mean?

Yeah. And we would have community events we would go to. And there would be other South Asian families trying to be like, oh, my grandfather has this lump on his arm. Can you look at it right now? Like just getting free help. And it would happen. Yeah.

And they'd do it. And there's a lot of South Asian doctors. Can you look at it right now? Like just getting free health care. And it would happen. Yeah. And they'd do it. And there's a lot of South Asian doctors. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, yeah, like the sort of similarities that we share emotionally because of this type of, you know, it is a boundaryless weird thing. But what happened when you heard that voice in yourself say that you have these problems?

I mean, this was the beginning of you acknowledging and realizing you had depression? Yeah, but I honestly found it kind of cathartic in that it felt like there was finally a label for this thing that I just thought everyone was going through and handling better than me. Which was what? Just not knowing what the point of anything is. Oh. Yeah. But that's the label? Well, for me, like I would, you know, I grew up and I had periods where I just felt like I didn't like want to exist or like be here.

But I didn't know. I just figured it was something everyone was experiencing and sort of was able to cope with better than me. I used to. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. You know, I used to, when I first started doing stand-up aggressively, I would tell these stories when alternative comedy started. And I just really believed that everybody, if they just let themselves, was as angry as I was.

But years went by and I started to realize, I think they're just laughing at my discomfort. I really don't think they're like, finally someone's speaking for what's inside me. I hate to admit it, but over time I've realized there are well-adjusted people in the world. I know. It's the fucking worst. It's horrible to think about. So, okay, so how long does it take you to, to realize that you're, you're not well? So, I mean, that happened pretty quickly. Like, I feel like I actually lost most of the weight

over like one summer and later in the fall, I think I realized that something was off, but it was of course that tricky thing with life where I was like, you know, maybe not being healthy, but then I was running like faster than ever. So I was getting all this positive feedback for this thing that I was told was bad. So I think I was very confused because I was like, but wait, these people are telling me it's good and these people are telling me it's bad. So that's why I had to leave school because I just like couldn't get a grip on what was going on. And like my grades started to go down and all that. So you left school after your sophomore year?

The middle of my sophomore year. You just, how did that? I went to like a treatment center for eating disorders. Oh, geez. Yeah. How was that? Yeah. How was that?

I mean, my book is about imposter syndrome, and it was still imposter syndrome because they were like, actually, your case isn't severe enough. Typically, we wouldn't let in someone that's not as severe as you are. And so because I live too far away from the treatment center, they're like, okay, you can be a resident. Huh. Because usually you would just be a day patient. So you're there with, you know, people sort of at death's door with... Yes, like much more... Anorexia or bulimia. Yes. Huh. Now, the imposter syndrome frame...

Yeah. ...of your book, Unreliable Narrator, I mean, when did you, like, when did you come upon that? Because that seems to be the portal through which... Because you wrote a real book. It's not just funny essays. Oh, like a real book. And that's not just funny. Right. Right. I mean, you had you know, you took this on as a thorough memoir that are, you know, there are difficult parts to get through. And I imagine it's a relatively happy ending that you're a functional person. Yeah, but I think a lot of the book is just about how we don't neatly resolve a lot of these parts of ourselves. And we sort of land at different places in our lives, but they're not really things where it's like there's a neat bow at the end where it's like, and now I love my body unconditionally.

Yeah, that's like a week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then that week passes and then there's four months of like, I'm fucked. Yeah. And then one of those weeks comes and you're like, I'm not. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's sort of just exploring that we're all kind of messes. But what about imposter syndrome in and of itself? Because that's a subtitle, me, myself, and imposter syndrome. What about that spoke to you? And when did that sort of sing the song that you needed to hear? Well, I think I've always felt kind of outside the box of what people expect of me. Like even getting good grades in school, I'm like, I'm doing it, but you guys should know that I don't care about any of this.

And I'm not really engaged. Like I'm doing everything at the last minute. I'm not really engaged. Like I'm doing everything at the last minute. I'm not really like caring about what I'm learning. And so I always have felt this sort of outsider feeling of like, even when I'm showing up and doing things and people are like, oh, you're, you get great grades. I'm like, it's not, it's all a farce. Right. I didn't realize that was part of it. I didn't realize that, that you could be functioning perfectly well. I guess that is the nature of it. I thought that to feel like a fraud, you had to be getting away with something. But if you're actually doing the work, that there's at least evidence that you're not a fraud in the sense that it's not some trick. Yeah.

But it's still imposter syndrome. It's still imposter syndrome in that you continually feel like people are not knowing what's actually going on with you. And like, you don't feel you're like, you're actually as good as the work you produce because you don't feel like it's actually that good. You're just like, other people seem to think this is good, but I know the truth. It's yeah, right. It's so funny because there are so many people, especially in the culture we live in now, that, you know, if they're getting away with it, it's the best thing ever. Yeah. That, you know, it's just sort of like, you know, if this is what people believe about me, that's my brand.

Yeah, yeah. And, like, I have been, you know, chronically hobbled and fighting any sort of brand idea. Oh, yeah. And people always have ideas of you. Yes. You know, people have ideas of me, and they put me in this box, and they'd send me out on auditions or something. Yeah.

And I'd be like, I have no control over this anger. Yeah. This isn't a character. Right, right. You idiots. I know. I feel like I, the really perverse thing about Hollywood too is you can go out for a part

that's like a Marc Maron type and they're like, eh, you're not quite what we're looking for. Sure. But that's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you're not what we're looking for. We'd like some,

a you that's a little muted. You're too much you. We can't call this you. So after the eating disorder treatment, did that help? Yeah, it helped. I mean, that was when I first went on antidepressants. I don't know how long you've dealt with meds, but that was the first time I'd ever had any experience with them. And I definitely was in that honeymoon period where you're just like, I didn't know you could even experience life in this frequency.

What med? I think I started with Prozac and then that changed to Celexa. I, you know, it's like I never stayed on meds that long. I had a therapist who was like, yeah, take the Prozac until we work through this. Yeah, yeah. That kind of thing. I'm like, cool. Because I did feel a little muted.

Yeah. I liked Wellbutrin because it made me speedy. Yes. Like I could feel a physical effect. I'm like, I feel great. Yeah. Oh, fuck yourself. I was on Wellbutrin and I would clench my teeth so hard I'd get headaches.

So I had to go home. Yeah, see, I would welcome that. Yeah, see, I would I would welcome that. But yeah, so I haven't been on medicine in a while, but it was it gave you a little respite breathing room. I mean, I would say it almost gave me like a level of euphoria. Like that was when I first went on them was when I tried my first open mic. And I really don't think I would have had the courage to do it otherwise. Like I think it was from that boost. Huh? Yeah. So it was like, it turned off the noise. Yeah. Huh? It was almost like when I first had the diagnosis of depression, like I know there there's like stigma attached to it. And people are like, you know, not everyone wants to admit this is something they struggle with.

I felt the opposite. I was like, I wanted to tell everyone. I was like, hey, guys, guess what? I'm depressed. Like, that's what my deal is. You know, like it gave me something to attach on to. Yeah, it was like there's a scene in Iron Weed that I always remember. It was Tom Waits and Jack Nicholson.

And Tom Waits says, I just went to the hospital. Doc says I got cancer. And he says, I never got anything before. I mean, it was like that. It was kind of like, this explains me. Yeah. Well, that's great. I used to do a joke that I think is kind of like, this explains me. Yeah. Well, that's great. Like, I used to do

a joke that I think is probably off-base, but I wonder what you would think about it. The advertising for Prozac used to be like, you know, it'll give you a new personality kind of thing. Yes. And I used to say, yeah, but the old one's still inside you. And it's sort of like,

I'm being held prisoner. Let me out. But it does mute something because you can't go down those neural pathways the same way. Yeah. But I think for me, I was just like, well, I'll take the new ones. Because I've heard people feel that way with meds a lot of the time. They're like, I don't feel like myself. And yeah, I guess for me, I just felt like such a shaky sense of self before that I was like anything that's like given me something to hold on to, I'll take it. But you don't track any of that to, to like, because like, you know, depression is obviously

genetic and that sort of like weird nebulous self thing. I can also track to the way I was brought up. Yeah. To the up. Yeah. To the parenting. Yes. Were you able to sort of see both of those things or you just feel like it's biological? I think I see it as both nature and nurture. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And but even though you're not, even though it's a new personality, it enables you to address your life and your past problems with a certain confidence. Yeah. I mean, I think to me, also growing up as like a pretty introverted kid, I saw, you know, extroversion is kind of a little bit more championed in our society. So I was like, if I can get closer to a version of that, I think I'll do better in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so the comedy went well? My first open mic went well enough that I think I had the, you know, the seed was planted. Uh-huh. Yeah.

But I think if it hadn't, you know, I could very well have pursued, I don't know, sculpture. What did you major in in college? Psychology.

And you finished it? I got a bachelor's. Yeah. And was that after, did you choose that after you got on the antidepressants? Yes. Yes. I just think you want the full background. Yeah, yeah.

And did you find that useful? You want the full background. Yeah, yeah. And did you find that useful? I found it useful in that it was the only subject I found continually interesting. Just because I feel like psychology, you can see it at work all the time. And like human behavior, I'm just like, yeah, that fascinates me. Yeah, it is pretty fascinating.

And did you find it also helped you understand yourself? Yeah, you know, I'm someone who's going to stop to take the personality quiz. Yeah. Every time I read any psychological book, I'm like, this is me. Yeah. Totally. Everything. I'm like, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I can totally relate to it. You just go to the DSM or whatever it's called and look at pathologies. It's like, oh, I got a little of that. I'm like a well-rounded psychological problem. Yeah, it's like the opposite. People are like, no, no, that's not me when it clearly is. I'm like, no, all of it. Yeah.

So you graduate with that degree with no intention to sort of pursue it as you are. I mean, I started. I did some. I helped my thesis advisor do some research i i tried to go down a journalism track for a while oh journalism yeah but you never thought like medical school no i think it's very much the thing of like what your parents do you're like i want nothing to do with that my freshman year of college i was like i'm gonna go pre-med what because my yeah and uh i just leaned into it and that was after like your senior year to do with that? My freshman year of college, I was like, I'm going to go pre-med. What? Yeah,

and I just leaned into it. And that was after like your senior year awakening. Exactly. Whoa. And I just, I leaned in. I did well my first year

of college with biology and I understood photosynthesis. I remember that was like the sign that I could, I was capable of studying is that I took some biology class and I was completely obsessed

with photosynthesis. That's incredible. And I kind of tracked it. I learned the cellular elements and all of that shit. Yeah. And I'm like, I can do this. And then I called my dad. I was like, yep, I'm going to be a doctor.

And then that went away. How did that go away? Too much work. Oh, yeah. And I didn't want to be a doctor. I wanted to be intellectual of some sort. I wanted to be a poet, a performer. I wanted to just intellectual of some sort. I wanted to be a poet, a performer. I wanted to just express myself somehow.

I also wanted to express myself, but I felt like I took an acting class in college, but I felt like that thing, I don't know if you've ever felt this way, but you're in the class and you feel like you're not being taken as seriously as like, like they're the people who are being treated like real actors. And then you're, they're just like, why are you here? You just need an easy one. Yeah. Well, I always like, I could never, like, I think with acting that I was always really struggling just to hold on to me.

Yeah. So the idea of these people that just drift into voices and characters and stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I just don't have that kind of confidence really to lose myself because I'm barely holding on. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like when you talk to people like that, they're always like, no, but I admire what you do because you're just yourself up there. And I'm like, I don't even know who I am. How am I supposed to be someone else?

You know, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on with me. But I think a lot of people feel relief. They're like, I can just do that. Right, right, right. And I imagine that's what we do as an adaptive necessity. Yeah. But you know, that's our business. You know what I mean? Right. This is the me that I'm presenting. Yes. And I've worked hard at building it. It doesn't mean I can build other characters. No. So the comedy kind of stuck. It doesn't mean I can build other characters. No. So the comedy kind of stuck. So after you graduate, then you lean in? Then I leaned in.

Yeah, I did some journalism internships. Like I interned at NPR. I interned at a city magazine. And then that's when I started doing open mics at night. Yeah. And you built an act? I built an act, yeah. act yeah in uh in out in out there in uh in where you lived i mainly performed in dc so i came up in the dc scene yeah who was there when you

were there like when i was there it was like rory scoville seaton smith jermaine fowler uh yeah there was it was a good scene like you could get good stage time, and I feel like it's not an industry town, so you can kind of, you know, take some risks. What are the venues? The Comedy Cafe is gone, right? And the improv's there? Yeah, the improv was at Arlington Draft House. Oh, yeah.

It was more a lot of alternative spots, like little restaurant bars. Yeah, the Arlington Draft House. I remember when that opened. I did gigs there. I think it's bigger now. Yeah? I think there's a couple venues, like Montgomery D little restaurants, bars. Yeah, the Arlington Drafthouse. I remember when that opened. I did gigs there. I think it's bigger now. Yeah? There's a couple of venues, like Montgomery Drafthouse. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. So they had open mics and stuff? Mm-hmm. Oh. Yeah. And then when do you decide, like, this is it. I'm going to where? New York?

Like five years in, I was dating a comedian at the time, Hampton Yunt. And we both decided to move to L.A. No New York? No New York. Oh, really? I spent some time there, but he was very much like, I only want to move to L.A., and I was kind of like, either one seems good, but yeah, sure, let's do L.A. But you felt like you had, you were, did you have enough foresight to think like, well, you know, I've got an act, I'm sort of ready to show myself? Or you just thought like, I'll go do comedy there. Cause that's not a great choice usually.

Yeah, I know. I think it was just like need to be in a bigger pond in terms of moving to the next. And what year was that you came here? 2010. Ah, huh. I think that's around when we may have first met. Okay. Huh. I think that's around when we may have first met. Okay. Yeah. And what was, it feels like, was, I guess alternative comedy was sort of peaking. Oh, yeah, I guess so, yeah.

If not, like, on the sort of, on the other side of peaking. Yes. Because it's sort of, for most intents and purposes, has disappeared. Oh, would you say so? I don't know. Maybe I'm just out of the loop. I don't. I am fully out of the loop.

Well, it just feels like in the early aughts around, or maybe mid, that it was huge, you know, and that, you know, Hardwick had this world. Oh, right. And there was all these other worlds. Meltdown, yeah. Meltdown. And then, you know, that became a TV show, which you did. Yes.

And that must have been, what, in what, like right when you got here? Maybe a little after 2013, 2014. Oh, really? So it was kind of plowing along. But it just feels like all those rooms are gone now. Yes. And it was before COVID that it happened. Oh, right.

Yes. Yes. But that was sort of the other world of comedy. Yeah. That you entered. Yeah. You weren't going to the comedy store. No. Other world of comedy. Yeah. That you entered. Yeah. You weren't going to the comedy store. No, I definitely tried the clubs and I think I just was like, I don't feel like I get this as much as these other rooms.

You didn't feel supported? Yeah. I think there was something about the vibe that just doesn't sit with me. Yeah, I get it. You know, you can't be vulnerable at all. Yeah. Sit with me. Yeah, I get it. You know, you can't be vulnerable at all. Yeah. Like, you know, in the alternative rooms, there's a certain tolerance for vulnerability and longer form stuff that may not go anywhere. Yeah.

Whereas the clubs, it's like you had to deliver a thing. Yes. I mean, sometimes I felt stuck in both spaces because I did feel like in alternative, sometimes I wasn't like weird enough. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where I was like, well, I am still doing just setups and punchlines. Yeah, you're a straight joke person.

And they were like, isn't there? What else? Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. I mean, you do write jokes. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely alternative joke writers, but there's also the sort of lyrical.

Yes, poets. Yeah. Something. The storytelling element, which I am guilty of, but I believe over time that to do it right, they're filled with jokes. Yeah. If you break them down. do it right you they're filled with jokes yeah if you break them down so is that when you start doing that stuff do you were you like i'm going to be a comic or was writing always part of it well i think it was that was where the imposter syndrome played in where i was like even just

calling myself a comedian felt like too presumptuous even like two years in huh here or even in d.C. Right. Because I think I was just like, who am I to tell people I'm a comedian? Like, I don't, what have I done? Well, my thought would be coming from the old school is like, if you're getting paid to do comedy, then you're a comic. Yeah. Now, the problem I have is when people call themselves artists.

I'm very reluctant to say I'm an artist. Yeah. You know, I don't, I'm very proud and fine with comic. Yes. But artist, it's sort of like, let's just step back a minute. Yeah. Artist feels like you have a certain idea of the discourse you're presenting. Right.

But I think, well, I do have that, but it's still like artist is like, I don't want the pressure. Oh, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. Comedian feels a little less. Yeah, yeah. like, I don't want the pressure. Oh, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, comedian feels a little less. Yeah, yeah. It's a little more working class somehow. But you were getting paid as a comic? Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I feel like spot pay these days is a lot better. I feel like at that time you were doing shows and there was no money in sight. A lot of the alternative shows which is where the the sort of issue came is that it was indulgent you know on both sides yeah yeah yeah yeah as a performer you could be indulgent and as you know the venue would let you indulge and then they'd be like well you can uh you're some food and back you know and it was all driven by that. And that's where you get there was sort of a kind of invasion of amateurs. Yeah. That were able to kind of, you know, delude themselves for a while.

Oh, sure. Yeah. But that's always I think that's all. Well, there will always be a place for them. No, of course. But it was usually, you know, in a sort of more open Mikey sort of thing. Oh, yes. Not like, you know, you're headlining today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so when does the writing kick in? Oh, so, okay. So then I'm in L.A. for like two years. And then I get this writing job on Totally Biased. With Kamau. With Kamau. And that takes me to New York.

So Kamau is a great guy. Yeah. And you'd never written on a show before. And I imagine he was, you know, sort of very attentive to diversity. Yes. And because that was a time where there was a lot of talk about the lack of diversity. Yeah. And his whole show was about diversity.

Yes. So did you feel, have you had experiences in both kinds of writers rooms or just, that was your first experience? I mean, I think I got lucky in that that was my first experience and that was a particularly diverse writers room. And then after that, I worked at Seth Meyers and that was also, I think for like an NBC late night show, a more diverse room than I would have expected. Was there a feeling of like finally, you know, there's many voices here? I mean, was that a conversation?

No, I don't think it was an overt conversation. But I think I still felt like I didn't fit in those places as well. And I think that was. But this is just the way you are, I think. Well, that's what I. Yeah, I think that's what I realized was I was just like, I don't think it's that I'm a woman of color necessarily. Like, I don't think that's the end of the story. I think it's just that I don't feel like I fit into groups. Well, yeah, that's why we chose this world.

Yeah. But what was the experience on Kamau's show like? Did you get a lot of stuff on the air and you felt like, oh, this is good? I felt like I was constantly felt like I was going to be fired. That's not great. But that's like what imposter syndrome is. You're like, this has been a horrible mistake that you hired me. I don't know why I'm here.

Was there evidence that that was a possibility? Or was that just something you were doing to yourself? I think it's a combination of both because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where you convince yourself you don't deserve to be there. And you kind of keep proving it right. Right. Yeah. Okay. But there was evidence to the contrary.

Like I got on air segments. I was included in stuff. You know, people were like using my jokes. But I just constantly felt like I was struggling to keep up with everyone else internally. But you don't know if that was a reality or maybe you were really struggling. I still, I mean, still in hindsight, I'm sort of like, I don't know if I make sense in writers' rooms. Well, but what were you,. But these are panel shows. So were they mostly jokes and a few sketches?

Or what was the job? Yeah, it was like late night. So it would be like monologue jokes and then like segments and sketches and field pieces. Yeah. Yeah. But you were getting stuff on the air? Yeah, but those environments, especially when it's like a topical show, and it's like, you know, coming out weekly, or every other week, or whatever it is, like you

feel a pressure that it's like, even if you get one thing on, you're like, okay, now I got to think of three more, you know, like, it never ends. Yeah, like, I can rest for a second. I can rest for a second. And you started doing acting as well. Yeah, the acting sort of came after, because I worked at Seth Meyers and then I was let go from there. And I think that was sort of a point where I was just like,

I don't think I really know how to write for late night. And that's when just like some acting opportunities started coming my way. So it was kind of fortuitous. Uh-huh. Yeah. And how do you feel about doing that stuff? I like acting.

I think I didn't realize going into it how much it is just waiting. You and me both. It's like that's the hardest part of it for me. That is the hardest part of it. Yeah. Because doing the scene or whatever, I'm like, this is great, but this is like 1% of the job. Yeah. And you were doing mostly sort of guest spots, right? Yeah.

And then animated stuff. And BoJack, yeah. Did you do a lot of BoJack's? And did that get you other animated projects? Yeah. Because I think voiceover people are always like, you have a voice that would be good for voiceover, and then I never knew how to break in because it's very competitive.

And so I think that first break helped me kind of usher myself into other things. Well, it's funny because with voiceover, there are voiceover actors that can do 90 characters. Yes, that's not me. Yeah, it's like the same with me. Like if you're hiring me, you're going to get this or you're going to get some version of this.

How you doing? Those are the two. Like a horsey kind of, you know, this thing or me regular. I know. I used to feel embarrassed that I was like, my range is me to me. But now I'm just like, okay, that's what I'm bringing to the table. And corporate? That seemed like a big.

Oh, yeah. Corporate was Comedy Central. That was, you might know these guys, Jake Weissman, Matt Ingebrigtsen, and Pat Bishop made this sort of dystopian workplace comedy that I was. Looks like you did a lot of episodes. I was a regular on that, HR, the HR lady. Oh, you were? Yeah. How was that, fun?

That was really fun. I mean, working with your friends, I feel like that's like the best. Yeah? Yeah. And they were your friends? Yeah, I mean, I think that's helped me get the job. And you're doing stand-up through it all?

Yeah, but with stand-up, I started struggling more and more with performance anxiety. Really? Mm-hmm. It got really bad where I would just even—usually it would be so bad leading up to the performance, but then it started getting where it wouldn't even go away once I was on stage. Right. And I really didn't know what to do because like nothing seemed to be helping it.

Beta blockers? I was taking like propanolol. It didn't do it? But it wasn't doing enough. Yeah. So you were just terrified? I was just terrified all the time. And I finally-

Like days before kind of stuff? Yeah. Oh, so worst. And it was sort of that thing of like, I was getting more opportunities to headline and stuff and I felt like worse and worse about it because I think you know you're what you think people expect of you gets higher yeah and so I when I was working on this book I took a break from stand-up it was also like when the pandemic happened and I took

like a three-year break and I I think I never would have thought I would have come back to it after that long away but yeah since I've come back I would say it's like the best thing I'd ever done for me to get away yeah well yeah I mean I think about that a lot you know not but I don't know anything else you know I'm not'm not. No, yeah, I get it. You know, I'm not really a writer and I do some acting. Yeah. But it's just it's just part of my dialogue, you know, is to go up there and do the thing. Yeah. You know, I I tend to worry more about like when are people going to start start not giving a shit.

Yeah. Or turning on me. Oh, yes. Then like, you know, should or shouldn't I be doing this? But like I've gone I don or shouldn't I be doing this? But like, I've gone, I don't go very long without doing it. But because I am where I'm at in my life, sometimes when I don't do it, it's sort of like, okay, yeah, I'm okay. Maybe that was what I said after the COVID, like when no one was doing stand up. I didn't, I didn't want it. I didn't care.

I didn't want to do it. Yeah. And my first thought, and you'll relate to this, is like, maybe I'm all better. Maybe I'm cured. Exactly. But as soon as other people started doing it, I was like, ah, fuck. Here we go. That's the thing. My relationship with performing, it's like very love-hate. It's like I need it, but then when I'm doing it I'm like am I happy but then without it

I'm not happy yeah it's a weird it's a weird thing well I it to me it leads back to that thing where you feel you start to feel kind of invisible again yes because after a certain point it kind of defines you yeah and it is and I think it's one of the main reasons I got into it, a way to be seen and to be seen as how you decide to be seen. Yes. So when you kind of let that go, you're like, I'm back into this amoebic kind of like, who am I business? Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And you have so much control over, yeah, how long you're being seen, what other people get to see. The only thing you don't have control over is like whether or not people like seeing you.

Yeah. But see, I would have the anxiety for me comes in where what you're saying you worry about where you're like, are people not going to care anymore? Are they going to be over it? Like I would start having those thoughts as soon as I saw them in the audience. I would be like, they're already going to be like, this was a mistake. Why did I come? Yeah. Yeah. I tried to just fight that one. Yeah. The idea that I saw them in the audience, I would be like, they're already going to be like, this was a mistake. Why did I come? Yeah, yeah. I tried to just fight that one.

Yeah. The idea that I know them. Yes. Like, you know, just by, like, or you sit there and you listen to the comic before, you know, like, oh, fuck. Like, seriously. Like, if someone comes off stage before I go on and says, they're great, I'm like, god damn it. I know. So I kind of want to know that.

Just like, don't tell me they're great. That doesn't mean anything for me. That's the thing. It's like bombing now. I'm just like, it's not bombing that kills me. It's more just like when they like everyone else and then they like you less. Yeah, but like, and we're just judging that on what? I know.

Our own insecurities and the laughs we get, right? Yeah. But like after a certain point, I just decided it's like, well, you know, either I'm going to decide to sort of go get them. Yeah. Which I can do and just overwork it. Yes. Pick up the pace. Yes.

Or just sort of like sit in what I want to do. Yeah. And get what I get. Yes. And sometimes it's a little, not so much disappointing, but like it's more earnest than doing the charm trick. No, it is. I think I lean more towards the latter as well.

And I had to learn to slow down and just kind of do it that way, you know, because I judge myself against, you know, killers all the time. Yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, and I know I can do that. Yeah. But to me, it's like if you're more thoughtful and you let things, you know, kind of have a different pace. Yeah.

It's more rewarding if it really works. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're not doing all the dancing. But I don't know if you do the dancing. Not literally. and all the dancing, but I don't know if you do the dancing. Not liberally. I did a show recently where I wouldn't say I made the best decision in doing it, but it was a show where you have to try and be a clown.

Wow, that's bold. Good for you. It's courageous. How'd that go? Terribly. Did you put on a nose? No. No.

But it's all stand-ups trying to do clowning. And first, what happens first is you go up there and you get roasted. Your stand-up act gets roasted. Yeah. And that's the part where things went south for me. The first part? The first part. What show was this?

Now I'm scared to say because it's a podcast. Oh, and then you're supposed to do the clowning? And then you're supposed to do clown scenes and, and the director, um, makes fun of you. Yeah. It's what clowning is, I guess. I don't know about the whole kind of the, you know, like, I don't, I can take a few shots. Yeah. Especially if they're good.

Yeah. And if they're from people I like. Well, that's the thing. I'm like, the thing with roasting is it needs to be from someone especially if they're good. Yeah. And if they're from people I like. Well, that's the thing. I'm like, the thing with roasting is it needs to be from someone who knows you. Yeah, yeah. If I don't know you and you're making fun of me, how am I supposed to feel? Yeah, yeah. I don't love it.

And I'm not great at roasting. No. I'm only good at insulting people if I know them well or I'm actually trying to hurt somebody. You know, which happens just defensively sometimes. Yeah. I do it less. I'm like, if we're going to do a roast battle, it needs to be behind closed doors. We need to build up a couple years of intimacy.

Yeah. Yeah. I can't do those roast battles. I'm not, you know, it's just like, it's not, you know, and I don't mind. I like Don Rickles to a degree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I get the art. I like Don Rickles to a degree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I get the art of it. Yeah.

But I don't really want to do it. Well, that's always funny to me when people are like, oh, it's just a joke. Like, why are you so sensitive? I'm like, I'm a comedian. Of course I can't take a joke. Yeah, you have to. I'm the most sensitive. That's why I do this.

You have to learn after a certain point just to be like, all right, good one. You know what I mean? And then go home and be like, what the fuck did he mean? Yeah, of course I'm going to be mad about this forever. Yeah, exactly. Those things are cataloged. So what's the plan now? Just to tour with the book a bit?

Yeah. Yeah? I've never been good at setting goals. Me neither. Whenever people are like, what do you want to do next? I'm like, I don't know. I don't even know in a given day what I'm going to do next. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, me neither. Like, I'm always surprised by my schedule. Yeah. Like, I get up in the morning like, what? Oh, I forgot about that. I have to do an award show? Oh, my gosh. I'm kidding. by my schedule. Yeah. I get up in the morning like, what? Oh, I forgot about that. I have to do an award show? Oh, my gosh. I'm kidding.

It's not that bad. I'm always surprised, even though it's been on the calendar for a month or two. I think it's better to be surprised that you're going to do an award show because for me, I'm like, I would be so anxious about it. It would almost be better to just be like, guess what? You're doing an award show now. Yeah. I just forget that I have these gigs and most of the time I'm like, why did I take it? Oh, of course. Every time. Yeah. I've been

trying to be better about saying no to things that I know I'm going to cancel on if I agree to it. But, uh, now my trick is that if I say yes to a thing, because usually I'm just so flattered to be asked. Now I say yes to it if I'm like, if this were tomorrow morning or like in four hours, would I want to do it? And if I cannot say yes, then I say no. Yeah, I just say no to a lot of things now because like I feel old enough to do that

and a little more financially secure. Yes, yes. Especially, it's like, how many weeks do I, if it's acting, it's like, where is it? Oh, yeah. How many weeks? That's the thing with acting, they make you feel like you should be so lucky every time. To go to Scotland for three months, to sit in a trailer in Scotland. And you're like, Scotland, wow, that would be great.

Yeah, that would be great. You're like, you're not going to be seeing Scotland. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's good to know that stuff. Yeah. But, all right, well, you sound like you're in a pretty good place. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm very microcosm.

Like, am I enjoying this cup of coffee? Then, okay, that's good. Things are good. Things are good. That's good. So you don't let your, yeah, but I do that. And then like my brain sort of like doesn't take the same break. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like, here's a great cup of coffee.

And then my brain's like, but what about, I'm like, can we just? Yeah. No, it's a constant. You got to, I'm trying to be nicer to my brain. Like instead of being like, shut up, I'm trying to be like, I understand where you're coming from, you know, like the sort of Buddhist. Right. Can we talk about it later, though? Yeah, yeah.

Let's wait till later tonight when I'm in bed. Yeah. And then you can start this conversation. Yes. Well, good luck with the book. Thank you so much. It was fun to read what I read. And good to finally talk.

Yeah, great to talk. Wait a minute. Wait, didn't you do a live WTF? Yes. It was when I first moved to L.A. I did. Like 2011? 11.

Okay. I did Steve Allen Theater. Right. It was a panel. I think Ron Funches was on it, maybe. Sure. That was our panel. I think Ron Funches was on it, maybe? Sure. That was like the old, that was our attempt at making money. We'd do the live ones and try to sell them.

Oh, okay, okay, okay. So it was like, it was Steve Allen, so it was Ron Funches. Was Eddie Pepitone involved or no? Maybe, yeah, maybe. Yeah. I can't remember the other guests, but I, yeah, that was my first big LA break where I was like, maybe I haven't made a horrible mistake.

The live WTF. Yeah. At the old Steve Allen. That was my credit when I went on shows. Oh my God. Well, I'm glad I could, you know, provide you that. I mean, full circle. And also I made a, courtesy of my anxiety, I made a joke about abortion at the top and

I do not stand by it. And I'm sorry I said it. We can take it out. Okay. Well, I wasn't sure. I didn't want to censor your form. Well, yeah, we can do that and we'll just leave it at it was nice talking to you. All right.

Great. There you go. The book, Unreliable Narrator, Me, Myself, and Imposter Syndrome is available now wherever you get books. Hang out for a second, will ya? Every veteran has a story. Whatever your next chapter, get support with health, education, finance, and more. At veterans.gc.ca slash services.

A message from the Government of Canada. We can wait for clean water solutions. Or we can engineer access to clean water. We can acknowledge Indigenous cultures. Or we can learn from Indigenous voices. We can demand more from the Earth. Or we can learn from indigenous voices. We can demand more from the earth. Or we can demand more from ourselves. At York University, we work together to create positive change for a better tomorrow. Join us at yorku.ca slash write the future.

People, on Monday's show, you'll hear my talk with Chevy Chase. And if you're a full Marin subscriber, you can listen right now to me and Brendan talking about the experience right after Chevy left the garage. Does he think he got railroaded or something? Not that I could tell. I mean, I think he thinks he did 50 movies. And I think that, you know, he thinks he's still waiting for an opportunity that's going to happen. You know, I don't think he would, you know, in retrospect. But there was no talking about that kind of stuff, you know, reflectively other than the talk show, which he was.

That was the best moment, really, because he was like, you know, I was I was terrible at it. I don't I don't know what I was thinking. He said, like, you know, he had watched other people do it and he took the opportunity and he decided that he was, you know, he didn't need notes. He was just going to do it. And then he says, my first guest was Robert De Niro. And I'm like, what are you thinking? To sign up for the full Marin so you can get all our bonus episodes twice a week. Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus again.

Chevy Chase is on next Monday show. And then LeVar Burton on Thursday. Good times. Guitar time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. ¶¶ Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda, cat angels everywhere.