WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1476 - Larry Charles

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

Larry Charles always knew he liked comedy but he also knew he liked being a button-pusher. Those preferences are on display in his writing for Seinfeld, his work on Curb Your Enthusiasm, and his direction of movies like Borat, Bruno, and his latest film Dicks: The Musical. Larry and Marc talk about comedy’s role in the world as a display of defiant humanity, their shared appreciation of John Waters, and Larry’s filmmaking experience with Bob Dylan. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuck nicks? How's it going? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. I want to get this right out in the beginning because I want people to know, and I can't come out and knock on every door. I can't email all of you. I don't know who you all are, but I do have some gigs coming up. the one I want to tell you about and make sure you know about is that I added a sixth show, a sixth fucking mouth, six. I was doing five. Now I'm doing six. I've added a show in Portland, Oregon. We've added a late show on Sunday, October 22nd, because those things sold out so early. So if you're in Portland and you want to go to Helium, go get a ticket. You can get tickets at wtfpod.com slash tour. I'm also in Bellingham, Washington at the Mount Baker Theater

for one show on Saturday, October 14th as part of the Bellingham Exit Festival. These are Pacific Northwest gigs. If you're in Seattle, make the drive. I won't be back to Seattle until the spring. I won't be back to Portland until probably the late spring if I come back. So these are shows that are going to happen once in a year. I also wanted to clear up this bit of business. And it might only be important to one or two people. It might be important to SNL historians. It might be important to deep deep cut alan zweibel fans it might be important

to alan zweibel because he texted me about it so zweibel reached out to me and i guess this has been well documented he was a little upset that uh that chevy didn't quite credit him for it during our conversation uh and he took some credit for it, I believe. But the joke was, the post office is about to issue a stamp commemorating prostitution in the United States. It's a 10-cent stamp. If you want to lick it, it's a quarter. And that was Alan Zweibel's joke, and he was on the show. He is featured on episode 1135. Great guy, great writer. I told him I'd clear that up. Now it's clear.

We're good. Did I mention today that Larry Charles is on the show? And man, we got it going, man. And there's some people I just lock into and we definitely had a great conversation. He was a writer on Seinfeld and a director on Curb Your Enthusiasm. He directed the movies Borat, Bruno, The Dictator, and Masked and Anonymous. His new

film is called Dicks, The Musical. And there are some guys I just kind of lock in with and we just go. And Larry was definitely one of those guys. I've been wanting to meet him and talk to him for a long time. I always thought that he was somewhat of a mysterious character and might not be a person who would like to talk to me or that I would be able to talk to, but it was like kindred spirits, man. It was definitely a symbiotic kind of riff party, slightly Jewish in origin, I think, by the nature of how we connected mentally and genetically in terms of the groove, man. There's the eternal kind of Ashkenazic groove that kind of moves through the universe, certainly through comedy and show

business and everything else. And I think we grabbed hold of that for an hour plus. And it was a great conversation. But I do want to say something about this movie. Now, look, you know, I don't know all the Seinfeld episodes. I never locked in. And then eventually I just, it went away. I mean, I know it's always available, you know, ad infinitum. Is that a way to use that?

Forever, somewhere. There's always a Seinfeld episode playing somewhere at any time. But it was not my show. And certainly, I've known about Larry for years. I knew about his involvement with Curb. I knew about Borat and this stuff. And he always seemed like this interesting guy that was able to kind of carve out his own comedy life. But the point is this movie, I don't know what I'm getting into when people send a film to me to watch. And I know this is Larry Charles and I know that he's a boundary pusher. I know that he is a comedic risk taker when given the freedom to do that. I had no idea what to expect. No idea what to expect from this musical, Dicks.

Now, I assumed that the title meant dicks, like dick, like, you know, dicks, but I still didn't know. And I got to be honest with you, it is a filthy, crass, insane, legit musical. And, you know, we talked about it. It came out of the minds of a couple of guys who improvised it. Nathan Lane is in it. Megan Mullally is in it. It's a real musical, but it is transcendently filthy. And I would say gratuitously, so why not? I mean, it is designed to be as filthy as it can within the sort of world that it creates. And because it's a musical and because it is sort of grounded in an idea, a conceit that is fundamentally a gay conceit, that there's a balance to the filth because it is not really making fun of anybody in a way that's mean or vicious, but it's certainly insanely dirty. And, and I would say provocative. It, it is a type of comedy

that for me, and I, and I talked to him about this, that there were, there were times in the seventies and he came up around, he's a little older than me, but there was a type of comedy happening coming out of San Francisco, coming out of New York, coming out of Los Angeles to a degree, I'm sure many major cities, that was just full-on, balls-to-the-wall smut for the sake of smut, for the sake of filth, for the sake of being dirty. It was some sort of reaction to the creative license that Lenny Bruce created, that Robert Crumb picked up on, that even people like Al Goldstein were sort of on the pulse of.

There was something happening, John Waters for sure, where the comedy was slightly secondary to how bad could the taste be? And I'm not talking about taste in your mouth. I'm saying this is bad taste shit, but there was a whole world of comedy that did that. And there is a certain aggressive, just fucking dirty camp to it. And I think it's directly connected to Waters. And this is something that I'm sure John Waters would love, but there's some things that you can't

even understand where they came from. But for some reason, they make perfect sense. And they're completely fucking dirty. But they are rooted in something. There is something about gay culture in here that is completely embracing, yet completely kind of not making fun of, but just taking to the limit. I guess they're making fun. But because it is driven by gay characters, there's a balance to it. I don't even know. I found it to be kind of mind-blowing. And above all, it honors the structure of a musical. So it really works somehow. I can't really... Look, you know what you're getting into. If you like Borat and you like those movies, that type of movie, this one is so well thought out. It's not an improvisational adventure. There's dance numbers. There's a full spectrum of, of dirty ideas in it. And it's just, you don't see this shit anymore,

man. You know, you don't see pure, you know, dirty, well-articulated, well-visualized, well articulated, well visualized, well choreographed, uh, good songs when it comes to, uh, to your comedy. I would say there's several trigger warnings, but the bottom line is it is a complete celebration of filth and bad taste in, in a way that I have not seen, you know, certainly since John Waters and certainly since the sevents and certainly not with this kind of production value. I loved it and I was happy that I did and I could enter the conversation with what he was there to talk about. I mean, we talked about everything, but man, that fucking movie, Dicks the Musical. But man, that fucking movie, Dicks the Musical. See it if you can. And just let yourself be kind of mind blown by pure filth in the most uplifting and funny way possible.

So listen, folks, I have to bring you some bad news. I have to bring you some bad news. The refrigerator odyssey with my Ukrainian repair guy, Alex, has come to a close. I've decided to bring it to a close. I couldn't go on anymore. I, you know, it's broken. The last we left off, it was still broken. I texted Alex.

He said he was out of town. He would fix it when he got back. I have not heard from him and I've not reached out again because I can't be that guy anymore. It's ridiculous. It was a fucking farce. And I guess no harm, no foul on some level. He was pretty dead set on fixing it. I think it felt to me like it was a, you know, his life's, it would be a life-defining moment to fix my refrigerator, but I can't do it anymore. I can't pester the guy. I can't wait around for something that's not going to happen. It was a codependent relationship, and, you know, I haven't closed it up with him. I haven't said, look, I don't want to see you anymore. Or look, you know, this isn't working out. Or I'm moving on to other repair personnel.

I just ghosted him and I'm fucking done with it. Because, you know, I'm proud to announce that I purchased a new refrigerator that will be delivered later this month. It's basically the same model and, uh, and it's going to fit the hole in the wall and I'm starting fresh. I mean, I know that thing was 15 or over 15 years old and it's been through a lot, but look, man, it's not even about the ice maker anymore. The thing is old. It's yellow. The, the seal, the seals are getting kind of flat. It's yellowing around the seals The plastic is drying out

And it's just a lot of things A lot of things It was a beautiful piece of equipment I know Alex loved it I know that his feelings for the refrigerator Were different than mine He really thought that he could help it He really thought that he could bring it life

And make its next few years, not prosperous, but productive in terms of ice making. But I can't even say he dropped the ball, but I think we're both giving up. That happens in these relationships. And this was really a threesome in a way. It was me and Alex in this old fridge that was kind of running out of steam. And days are numbered, but I'll spend quality time with it. I'm not going to tell Alex. I'm not going to tell the angry Ukrainian repairman that his project, his life project, the thing that was going to kind of send him off into the sunset, a kind of thing that he could kind of put a notch on his belt for victories in his life

is just not gonna happen. I'm not gonna, I'm not even gonna bring it up until maybe he'll get in touch with me in a few weeks. I'll go like, it's done, dude. It's done. That fridge is gone. You hated it anyways. It's gone, baby.

So I'll let you know how it goes when I let him know. I don't assume he'll be emotional about it. I don't know. But he did warn me that the new ones have too many computers in them, which means that on some level, because he is the licensed repair guy for Thermador, I imagine I'll see Alex again down the line and we'll be sort of convening over another refrigerator. That's more complicated, not as good. But nonetheless, that means there's a future for a new triad of me, Ukrainian Alex, and the Thermidor that's got too many brains. That's the name of the book. That's the name of the short story.

That's the name of the fable. That's the name of the children's that's the name of the fable that's the name of the children's book it's all happening folks okay here we go so the film that larry did called dicks the musical opens in theaters tomorrow friday october 6th and will be expanding in future weeks the movie is being distributed by a24 and it has an interim promotional agreement with SAG-AFTRA. And this thing is a, it's a fucking dirty, filthy movie. It is a crass bit of provocative and truly edgy humor. And it's definitely not for everybody, but I don't know how that promotion, I don't know how that plug will make almost everybody go see it. And I'm going to stand by that. This is me talking to Larry Charles. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode

on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive.

FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I'm noticing I'm going to be 60 next week. Right. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. I made it. Yeah, right. You know, I don't think you notice them until 60. Really, I didn't. Like, you know, it didn't matter.

But for some reason, 60 is like, fuck. Well, I can't pretend that I'm not going to die anymore. That's right. That's it. I think I was able to pretend that I was immortal in my mind, and that allowed me to do a lot of crazy things. Right. And suddenly I had like an epiphany of like, wow, I could die now.

Like, yeah. Any time. And people we know are dying around us any time with no logic. I know. Yeah, and I think like I had this weird framework in my brain Anytime. And people we know are dying around us anytime with no logic. I know. Yeah. And I think, like, I had this weird framework in my brain that if you made it to, you know, to 23, okay, that's the first hurdle. Right. And then if you make it to, like, I think I put it at, like, 34, then you're good.

And then if you make it past 55, you're probably in for a good run. Yeah, yeah. But I don't know if that holds up. Is it true? I don't know. It's something I tell myself. Yes, I think we have to delude ourselves. That's the only way we're going to get through this.

That's all of it, though. Yes, yeah. We're Americans also. We have the good privilege, the fortune of being able to even spend time contemplating this stuff. Sure. If you're in Mogadishu, you're just running all the time, you know? Well, yeah. And I think there's something about the framework of the series that you did, you know, around

that stuff that I want to bring up. But personally, the anxiety is directly relative to mortality awareness. Yes. And I think the anxiety for me is that like I get obsessed with bullshit. Absolutely. Distractions. Right. We have to distract ourselves from our crushing reality.

Well, at all costs though. Like I used to talk about Ernest Becker all the time about the denial of death. Yes. That if we're not part of something – okay, so you and I are not believers. Right. So, you know, so we don't have, we're not afforded the luxury of feeling part of something bigger than ourselves. Right. That's mythological to define our existence. Yes.

So it really has to be about, you know, why the fuck is this coffee machine not working? Well, and also I think, if I may, I think our egos, you know, we lost control of our egos along the way somewhere. You know, we lost control of our egos along the way somewhere. And now, you know, as we're sort of facing mortality, the ego is sort of trying to fight us on this reality. Right, right. So, like, the denial of death and all those things are the ego holding on. Because I've expanded my vision of what life is after death. It's like, okay, maybe we are electrical impulses or we're energy and somehow we go on. But Mark and Larry don't go on.

I know. Is there any comfort? The ego, the construction of our personalities is gone. Right. But do you find comfort in electrical particles? No, I don't. Not at all. It horrifies me.

I want Larry. Yeah, right. Electrical particles with no consciousness. That's right. How is that uplifting? Yeah, it doesn't help us. No, it doesn't help us at all. I did have a-

Good for the cosmos, but not for us. Be part of cosmic dust for eternity is something. That's right. That's right. That's all you're going to get. Yeah, well, I mean, I've been doing this bit on stage about how I blacked out at the top of a mountain recently, and it's a sort of a kind of a multi-level bit about my girlfriend's passing and about death awareness. But when you black out, have you blacked out recently?

No, I have not. Have you ever? I don't think I've ever blacked out. You should. Well, I drank tequila when I was a teenager, and I think I blacked out then, but that was the last time. Right, but then people tell you what you did. Yeah, exactly. You wake up with vomit, and you were still engaged in the world.

Exactly, exactly, yeah. But no, I blacked out and I realized because I stretched and then I went down and I was by myself and then I came to with my face on the ground, but when I was out there was nothing. Wow. And it was comforting. Wow. Because I realized if I hadn't woken up, I wouldn't

be the wiser. Right. And it wasn't horrifying. You know, it was okay. I don't want it. Yeah. But if it happens that quickly, God willing. You're right. That is a kind of a way to look at it also. Like when it happens, it's going to be over and it's not going to matter what you think or feel or what anybody else thinks or feels.

You're going to not exist anymore. That's hard to wrangle, isn't it though? Yes. Because I went to an estate lawyer yesterday to redo my will. And you're having this, you know. They want me to do that. I'm about to start doing that myself. Well, you have to. And I put it off, by the way, because I don't want to, like, make a, you know, a definitive statement about my death. Yes, that's exactly it. But that's the horrible thing. I'm sitting there with her. And all the paperwork that you have to sign, it's all relative to you not being there. That's correct. And then the sort of ego fight that happens in the moment is like, you know, you're giving

this person all this money. Is that all right with you? And I'm like, what the fuck difference does it make on some level? But then your brain goes like, well, do they deserve it? Right. Then you've got to weigh that. But it's also like, it's not if you die. It's like when you die, what are you going to do?

So that when you die, that definitive thing is too overwhelming. And I've avoided that kind of conversation my entire life. Oh, yeah. And she was very funny because there's that, you know, the medical stuff, like, you know, if you're, you know, on the machines or whatever, or in medication. And she says, I think you should, this is important today. The DNR. Today, you got to do that.

Because who knows when you leave. You're going to get hit by a bus, as they say. Yeah, I know. That is fucking scary to me. It's pardon, pardon the cursing. No, no. It's knows when you leave. You're going to get hit by a bus, as they say. Yeah, I know. That is fucking scary to me. It's pardon the cursing. No, no. It's curse all you want. Okay.

So I guess where to start this stuff is I had a conversation with my producer, kind of like trying to process certain stuff. Like I watch Dicks. I watch the new film. Uh-huh. And it's kind of an amazing movie. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much.

And it's amazing for all the reasons that you've sort of evolved as a guy who's going to create stuff that's jarring. Correct. But it's pretty well balanced. Yes. In terms of, you know, it's not irresponsible in its crassness. Correct. It's not gratuitous. It's not gratuitous, and it's sort of morally balanced.

Correct. It is. It's also a weirdly, especially for me, a life-affirming, very human movie. Well, I think that the choice to use a musical as the context, and, you know, it's a real test of that genre. Yes. context and to you know it's a real uh it's a real test of that genre yes because you know you you you went out of your way to uh to sort of obviously hire the best and the brightest in the musical racket yes and so the songs hold yeah and the actors are musical professionals nathan lane

megan malali you know in the two leads who i didn't know yeah right they're from ucb by the way in new york oh and megan Stallion, you know, these people. Megan Thee Stallion, yeah. But what's sort of fascinating about it is the element that makes musicals, you know, heartening and powerful is all in place with this sort of, you know, ridiculous and, you know, kind of balls to the wall, you know, offensive fest. Well, you know, a musical is a unique, at least a modern musical, this musical was a unique opportunity, at least as I saw it. The musical is such an artificial form. So the musical existed before you chose to film it?

That was an existing musical? No, they had a review at the UCB that was about 30 minutes long where they played all the roles. Okay. And it was kind of a short little short story sketchy version of what we wrote, what became this movie. And it took about a year to really develop it into a script that could be shot. But I love the form of the musical being artificial, so artificial that you can break the fourth wall, that you could talk directly to the audience, that you could interact with the audience. And I drew on a lot of influences from Stanley Donen and Gene Kelly and On the Town and Singing in the Rain. The musical is what it is, but it's also a deeply dug in genre of film.

Yes. That is as important in the history of film as any other. There's only a few. Yes. And it was something, oddly, that became very popular during the worst times in our country. Interesting, too. Yes. Right?

Right. Absolutely. I mean, post-World War II is really when the musicals started to flourish. Yeah. And so, okay, so when you saw it at UCB, was this an improvised exercise or was it a scripted thing? They had been doing it for—they had been working it for like five, eight years already by the time I saw it on tape. And so it had been—it evolved, but it was just always the two of them playing all the parts.

in the review that we didn't wind up using in the play because we had to sort of create a screenplay that would actually have some structure and kind of lead to some place and have a little bit more of a story than the review does. The review, because it's 30 minutes long, they didn't worry about narrative and things like that. Well, yeah, and also once you realize

that the way you set it up, you know, with the one-liners or the idea that these are two gay guys playing gay guys. I can't remember how you framed it. Two gay men. First time gay men have ever written anything. That's the first thing you said. And then playing straight men.

So it's already kind of ridiculous. But by the time the conceit of the thing unfolds, it becomes more and more absurd. of the thing unfolds, it becomes more and more absurd. But there's, because, you know, when you say UCB, I have to assume that the idea of sewer boys came out of an improv. Probably so. And I don't even know the origin of that. Yeah, it doesn't matter. But you decided you had to visually manifest it.

Yes, that's right. Yes. As soon as I read the sewer boys or heard them talk about it, you don't see them in the play. And you don't see the vagina in the play. But as soon as I saw those things were being talked about, a disembodied vagina and the sewer boys, I knew for the movie, I mean, I love science fiction. I love horror.

I love making people scream in a movie theater leading to laughter. So I thought those are going to be fantastic elements for the movie if we can manifest them in some way. But obviously as a riff, as something that's spoken, you know, it just functions as a joke. But once you realize it visually, it becomes a joke, but it also becomes something grotesque. Exactly. And envelope pushing in a way. I love that.

I love those, that synthesis between the grotesque and the horror and the comical. Yeah. And I think like the naked fight in Borat, you know, these things were showing their asses and were showing their balls and it's kind of gross and hilariously funny. You're laughing despite yourself. And getting to that point is a very cathartic moment, I think, for the audience.

But with Borat, you know, in most of those things, it's visceral in the sense that it's just human flesh and people doing something vulnerable and bizarre. But when you're actually creating props, but there's a precedent for all of it. I mean, the vagina precedent is the plant in Little Shop of Horrors, right? Little Shop of Horrors. I'm not a massive musical fan, but there were musicals that I loved as a kid, like Little Shop of Horrors. Funny thing happened on the way to the forum because it was super funny.

You know, there was a few musicals that I thought really spoke to me. Fiddler? Rocky Horror. You know, Rocky Horror. No, Fiddler? No. Well, Fiddler I knew because my parents were so into it. Like, my Bar Mitzvah album has me, like, with the sunrise, sunset, you know, through the

picture and all that stuff. So, yeah, I'm aware of those kind of shows, but I wasn't into them. Right. No, of course. Yeah, but it's part of the tradition. Exactly. Right. But the story is really these identical twins that don't really look alike, who didn't know they were identical twins, coincidentally live next door to each other, work at the same place, and then realize they're identical twins, and they're both in their 30s, and they decide that they figure out that both the parents were separated

and they didn't know about each other, and that they're going to try to get their parents to get back together again. There's a twist in terms of how the brothers' relationship evolves. Correct. But for me— Well put, by the way. They've been doing this a while. But for me, the sort of bigger life of the idea, because Nathan Lane to play a, you know, a kind of dirty mouthed, older gay man who is fine with that.

And then the idea of the sewer boys being there. There was also something that the sewer boys is not just absurd. Sewer Boys is not just absurd. Correct. And, you know, the implications of certain things and the mother in the wheelchair that might not need the wheelchair whose vagina fell off. All of it seems absurd, but for some reason it reads as human and provocative in a deeper way. Yes. And then to have Bowen Yang as a slightly, I would say, campy, bordering on drag god. Correct. Camp, by the way, the sensibility of camp plays a big role in the movie as well.

For sure. People today don't really know what camp even is. And so being able to introduce those elements, the guys used to call this, they're doing straight camp. They're playing straight men. It's campy for them to play straight men. this, they're doing straight camp. They're playing straight men. It's campy for them to play straight men. Well, how do you define camp? Well, camp, I think, is generally the gay culture exaggerating the straight culture. That's how I would- So that was in your mind from the beginning?

Yes, very much. Because we come right out and say, because that's what the movie really is. It's two gay guys playing straight guys. we tell you right at the beginning and people laugh at that. And that also helps relax people. When you get a laugh right at the top, people start to relax and they can kind of be more open to what's going to come. Like in Borat again, to go back to that, the opening has the Kazakhstan TV station logo and people just laughed at that. And then they were able to accept and flow with us. And then it becomes a trip that we're all on together. Right, right. It's very different, though, because like I was thinking about the humanity at the heart of all this stuff, because that was a conversation I had this morning in terms of,

where do you put comedy of this type? You know, with Borat, the vulnerability comes from his empathy for normal people. Yeah. Really. Yeah, and he's innocent, really. Right. And so all his, which gives you permission to go very far with the humor because he doesn't know any better. And here also because it's gay guys playing straight guys,

you could go for straight, politically incorrect type of humor. Right. Because you know it's a comment on that rather than adulting it. Right. It's not rooted in sort of shock value, fuck you, woke people, whatever. But with Borat, though, a lot of the humor relies on the vulnerability of the Marx. Correct.

Correct. And people were very patient with him, actually, which helped with the humor to a large degree. But also it creates a sensitivity and an empathy with people that we judge harshly as a group as being terrifying and possibly the end of democracy. Yes, that's right. Well, as the director in those situations, I found myself even having sympathy sometimes for the white supremacist or somebody because I knew we knew more than they did. You know, we always went in with much more ammunition than they knew we had. So they're kind of a little bit at the disadvantage in those dynamics. And sometimes I feel bad for the person like, well, they really have no idea what the fuck is going on. Well, but that's sort of the question that, like, you know, is kind of, you know, in my mind about, you know, what comedy is for.

You know, and on the series where you sort of go to all these war-torn countries or authoritarian countries and do documentaries about what is happening there in comedy. What's it called again? Larry Charles Dangerous World of Comedy. Yeah. It was four parts, right? Yes. Yeah. Is that, you know, what is that about it was four parts, right? Yes. Yeah. Is that,

you know, what is that about? Because like, not, not, I'm not asking that. I'm just thinking out loud in the sense that like, I was trying to figure out when you approach these people, these dupes, these, you know, foot soldiers of an ideology, is that where I come from in terms of my approach to comedy and into the audience? Is that like, well, these people obviously had childhood trauma. They're misguided because their brains don't work correctly. You know, it's not necessarily that they're salvageable, but it can be sympathetic. But after a certain point, it no longer does become sympathetic. But my approach is they're fucked up people.

Yes. And you're right. They are. But there's a mindset when you're shooting like Borat of like there's a killer instinct. No, no. I'm not judging that. What I'm judging is like – You can judge it, by the way.

It's worth judging. No, no. It's fine, you know, and I understand that there's a killer instinct. But somehow or another, it still balances itself out because I know you got to get these people to sign off on this shit. Yeah. So – but my point is like how do we fix it? Right. Whereas, you know, I think that your comedy doesn't deal with that.

Right. And that going back to the documentary series. Yes, yes. Is that I think what we find after talking to Raoul Peck about, you know, growing up in these countries where, you know, authoritarianism and war is a constant from day one of your existence. Yes, yes. So you've integrated that experience into your being. Yes. It is the way life is.

Yes. Now, we don't know that as Americans, but what I understood this morning is that it's not that when you say comedy is courageous in these environments, certainly it is because of what it's up against, but it knows fundamentally on some level, it's not necessarily going to facilitate change. Right. But, but what it does facilitate is the defiance necessary to maintain your humanity. Correct. It reflects, it reflects their reality. And that resonates with the people that are listening and watching what they're doing, even if they're just doing it on their iPhones. Like in places like Liberia, which are war-torn places, you walk down the street in the middle of Monrovia, Liberia, and half the people are amputees or missing eyes or whatever. And the fact that comedy kind of emerged almost like had a surge in the wake of the Civil War and Ebola is the power of comedy there, you know.

And it kind of gave people a place to turn, a little catharsis, a little connection to their community. It restored their humanity after having it relates to freedom of speech and whatever. That's sort of a different fight. And that, you know, it's not that Lenny's humanity wasn't present most of the time and even more so as he got less funny. But I think my misconception in thinking about it, you know, previous to this morning was that, you know, that comedy somehow, you know, serves a point in fighting the fight, which I'm not sure necessarily does. What it does, the fight it's fighting is the portal through which, you know, people can maintain their humanity as opposed to become sort of dead-eyed zombies or authoritarian stooges.

Right, that's right. Well, even in this country, when you think about George Carlin, you know, George Carlin was trying to do that as well, you know. But the sad thing is when I watch a George Carlin video from 10 years ago, he's talking about stuff that hasn't changed. It's still like that today, you know? He's commenting, but the changes that you're talking about

don't really wind up occurring. Not only do they not occur, but, you know, for some reason, because of the entitlement and the comfort that we have here culturally, if you want to call that, outside of being fundamentally distracting and disabling people's ability to deal with almost anything. Right.

The popular culture. That Carlin, at that point, the only way that he became full on like that is to really give zero fucks. That's right. That's right. And comedians today are having trouble doing that. And that's why you're having this kind of this comedy is in a weird transitional phase right now. My point of view on it is it's it's it's it's transitioning into something bad.

OK. And I'm not sure about that. Well, no, I mean, I think it's become tribalized. And my point of view is that once the sort of the fight of whatever it is, anti-cancel culture or we can't say what we want, which is total bullshit. I agree. that are provocative, but their egos feel like they're philosophers and have social momentum and that they're leaders of men. That, you know, what happens is they're not deep enough to realize they're being co-opted by a fascist ideology. So they're being used. They are pawns in the same game. Right.

Absolutely. People like Russell Brand, they're being used at the same time that they are exploiting. But, yeah, well, there's the grift at the base of it. There's the protection that, you know, speaking to that, you know, if you're speaking to the people that are intolerant and don't respect vulnerability or apologizing, then you've always got a livelihood as long as you don't apologize. Right. And but that's the Trump. That's the Trump philosophy. But that but he opened the door to that.

That's the Trump philosophy. But he opened the door to that. But what I'm seeing is that these egos that believe they're fighting some good fight are being duped. But they're also making a lot of money. So I don't know that they give a fuck that they're being duped. So in light of that— Now you're getting into the capitalist system itself also, which eludes a lot of people. They think they're making progress. They think they're helping.

They think they're making change. But you're right. They're part of the system, really, that think they're making progress. They think they're helping. They think they're making change. But you're right. They're part of the system, really, that perpetuates all those things. That they're making money. Yes. And in their mind, winning is money. Correct. And once that becomes part of comedy, it gets washed down.

And then the thing that I noticed recently that bothers me the most is that once these tropes are set by the reigning voices in comedy and an ideological contact is set, which is anti-woke or free speech, is that then you have thousands of hacks who decide that, like, I guess I got to do my trans bit for you now. It's like, no, you don't. Right. There's four of them. But weren't those people also doing, you know, sort of cheap comedy back in the 70s? When I was selling jokes in front of the comedy store, I used to watch all those comedians get up on stage. And there was only a couple of comedians who were brilliant. No, no, no.

Hack is hack. Yeah. become focused and sort of dismissive of established marginalized people or feelings where you can't get past that. You feel like you have to jump. So there's always been hacks. Yes. But when does the hack become part of the momentum that's dangerous culturally? Well, I think that happened to us. That happened in the 70s and 80s, led to all those bad sitcoms.

You know, maybe the culmination. Well, bad sitcoms is not, you know, like, it's not Kristallnacht. No, no, that's true. It would be interesting if it was. It'd be a good sitcom. Yeah, yeah. There was that show like Heil Hitler, I'm Home. It was an English sitcom. Did you ever hear about that one? No, no, yeah. There was that show like Heil Hitler, I'm Home. It was an English sitcom.

Did you ever hear about that one? No, no, no. Yeah, like Hitler moves next door to a British family, and it lasted like one episode. But what's your point that the hacks led to a sort of mediocre status quo? Yes, we had a period. I knew a lot of comedians at that time who weren't very good, who weren't trying very hard, who didn't have any vision, didn't really have mastery of the language. It's always been a grift. Yeah, but it was a white thing, just a white male thing to a large degree. And so what's changing now is it's not a white male thing.

In the mainstream. Yes, exactly. But the fringe stuff was very hard. I mean, I think Richard Pryor becomes very important in this conversation. That's it, sure, of course. He's the transition from the obscure to the mainstream. Yes. And exposing people.

And Carlin and all those people were influenced by him. And so that expanded the language. And that allowed good comedians to explore more interesting things and bad comedians to make more cheap jokes. Sure. You know, it seems to me that what's happening with Dix, this new film, is that, you know, we are in a moment in this country that, you know, is eluding most people. But it's real. Yes. Is that, you know, the threat is real. Yes. Is that, you know, the threat is real. It's almost seemingly unavoidable at this point, whether it's authoritarianism or climate disaster. And and, you know, what what I saw Dix as in this context. And this goes back to there's two things that happened is that, you know, like sometimes I don't know how to contextualize John Waters. But if Dix was not done professionally and was not done with real actors, it would be a 1970-something John Waters movie. Correct, yes.

Yeah. And so- Who I'm a massive fan of as well. Why wouldn't you be? But what happens is, in light of what we're talking about, is the humanity that you're defending and speaking with a voice of defiance in this movie are exactly the people

that are going to be first against the wall. Yeah, that's right. Well, that's what makes this movie so, I think, liberating possibly, because we are sort of like throwing the gauntlet down to the entire audience, you know. My brother, who's a Trump supporter, watched the trailer, and he actually loved it. And he showed it to his friends who's a Trump supporter, watched the trailer and he actually loved it. And he showed it to his friends who were all Trump supporters back in Long Island. And they were digging it. And my premise has always been. The whole movie? Yeah.

My premise. Because they don't. You know, they're looking for something that's funny. Yeah. They don't really care about the things that happen in the movie as much. Specifically. So they don't care, you know, in the sense. They're not worried about it.

They're not worried about God care, you know, in the sense— They're not worried about it. They're not worried about gods, you know. But that you went out of your way to balance that last musical number with the fact of Bowen Yang's character. Yes, right. So, but they're not going to read that. Yeah. They just like what you're saying. Right. They don't care.

And that doesn't bother you. No, it doesn't. Because I can't control it. Once it's out there, like when you make a joke on stage, you can't control whether the audience is going to laugh or not. Right. And this is the same thing in a movie theater. To me, once the movie's done and I have confidence in the movie itself, I let it out there and people are going to get what they get out of it like a painting. Right.

Hopefully. They'll look at it and people will see different things and they'll go back. It's a very dense movie because I want people like a great album to go back and listen and watch again and again, because it's all stuff that they missed as well. And so that to me is very important here to sort of provide something that can sort of, that actually seems like an obscure esoteric thing, but that actually could have a mass, mass audience. I believe a movie like this can appeal to everybody because why? It's funny. It's actually funny.

And you can sing to it. It's got great songs. Those two things, my mother would love this movie. You know what I mean? I'm not sure kids are going to be doing the musical. Well, anybody over the age of 16

can see the movie. It's true. We call it almost a family film, you know, because kids, I guess, under the age of 16, maybe parents might, my kids probably could see it.

But I understand why people might have some restrictions. But the truth is, it's really for everybody. Sure. But the combination of defiance in the face of oncoming fascism in support of marginalized communities, LGBTQ primarily, but even there is, you know, the presence of Megan Thee Stallion and her number in it is not, you know, I'm not overlooking that. Sure.

But on top of that is that what you get, and I think what you like, and probably, you know, before you were a more evolved person, just the... Still trying, man. Sure, we all are. But that closing number

is one of the great musical fuck yous to half the country. Sure. We all are. But that, but that closing number is one of the great musical fuck you's. Yes. To half the country. Yes. There's a, there's almost a more conventional ending before that moment. And it seemed to us that it was wrong. Before the brothers.

Right, right. There was a way to end it. That would have been more conventional. People would have gone, Oh, it's a nice, but that was an interest of interesting to me.

I wanted to push past that and, and see how uncomfortable I could make people while still drawing them in at the same time. But I felt that with Nathan's presence and Bowen's presence and even Megan Lally to a certain degree and their sort of total commitment to this thing. Yes. as musical performers that, sadly, it felt like a final kind of like, you know, fuck you to what we're going through. Because, you know, on some level, and you know this, this is just, if it becomes popular enough,

is going to feed the fire of the book burners and the abortion deniers and the gay haters. Yes, but they'll see the movie and like it, and then they'll burn the books and they'll hate the gay haters. Yes, but they'll see the movie and like it, and then they'll burn the books and they'll hate the gays. But the fact of the matter is, I can't control that part. No, I get that. But considering it,

that in talking about what we were talking about of working with an authoritarian culture and the possibility of it, is that ultimately that doesn't matter because the courage of those people that you documented in your series was that they may be killed for this yes uh or it may not be noticed or it may be steamrolled or appropriated by the dominant paradigm of authoritarianism yes you know but it's the fuck you is necessary yeah well in those countries in a country like say liberia

yeah where there is such uh chaos and there's no currency and there's no breakdown of the government, people make their art the thing that we, they figured out over the years, they don't have to like, you know, make you, they don't have to scare you. They have to seduce you. So we're all seduced by great TV shows and great movies, and we're distracted by those things. And we're then indulging in that same capitalist system, and there's no way it's going to change as long as we do that. But that's fine.

You know, if you fine. The difference is that if you can get the funding and it makes a little money, then you can work within it, which is also the problem with... I struggle with that, by the way. I try to make things like Dangerous Comedy or even this movie. This movie is a very low-budget

movie. Politically for me, ethically for me, I find it offensive when movies cost $250 million and the world is in the state that it's in. So I'm also looking to make a statement in the way these things are made, you know, and using an integrated crew, for instance, which is almost unprecedented in my experience behind the scenes, you know. So I'm trying to make those political moves behind the scenes also to make the movie work on that level too. But what we learn about capitalism is that how easily symbiotic it can become with fascism. Absolutely. But in that gray area,

the capitalist system in the form of media companies is still willing to take risks if you can convince them that it's going to make money. And if you can make it for no money, they're like, well, fuck, it's a win-win. Yeah, that's right. The worst that can happen is we pull it or it just goes in the toilet. Yeah. The way I can make a radical work is by saying I could do it for a little money. And the way they say yes to it is because they think, oh, that radical little work that's

not going to cost any money is going to make money. Absolutely. That is the system. You know, I haven't figured that's not going to cost any money is going to make money. Absolutely. That is the system. You know, I haven't figured, I haven't been able, I've been doing stuff on YouTube. I've been trying to figure out a way to get out of that, to move out of that. It's very, very difficult to do, you know, because YouTube is owned by somebody, you know, Instagram is owned by somebody. Everything, you know, it's very hard to get your word out, get your thoughts out.

Yeah, but outside of that, you're, you know, the amount of effort it has to take, even as somebody who's 15, it's your whole life to try to get something to surface on there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we as old guys, you know, just on an energy level and also on being savvy to the language of how most platforms work, we're a little at odds. Yes, that's right. We've allowed, you know, the government has allowed those regulations to fall by the wayside so these companies can operate without any supervision whatsoever. And they are, and people think they're going to be discreet or somehow self-regulate, but we see that's not the case.

Greed overtakes everything. Everything. That's why the sky's on fire. Exactly. And I don't know, I don't fully understand the blind spot, even on behalf of corporations that are run theoretically by human beings. Right. At what point, I talked about in one of my specials that there's this idea that, well,

we'll adapt to it. You know, after the case, yeah, we fucked everything up, but let's get some minds on this and figure out how to make money off of it. Well, we'll adapt to it the way Philip K. Dick did in whatever the book was where the people living on Mars. Oh, yeah. And they had the perky pats. And they had to take the hallucinatory drugs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's how we're going to adapt. We're going to wind up just being, you know, in a complete, like, TV environment. Sure. Entertainment distraction. We're almost there. And he was saying that we were living, you know, that our modern life was a delusion, and we were actually living as slaves of the Roman Empire. Well, that's like the, right, that's sort of

a matrix-y thing, but it's also, the only difference between reality and that is that, you know, we're just going to make this planet Mars. Correct. That's right. That's exactly what's happening. They even have that TV show now, Stars on Mars. Yeah, so they have that already. But going back. To show us how

it's going to be sure yeah thank god we need that prepare yourself i'm going to be gone i think i always said that but now it's sort of like i guess i'm going to see the beginning right right let's hang out for a while but but going back so you know in the 70s uh because like i see you because you had the the benefit of being slightly older me, you were able to fully appreciate this sort of explosion of insane filth and a certain type of lifestyle in New York in the 70s. Yes. Patriarchy aside, what was happening comedically was pretty mind-blowing. Yes, I agree. I agree.

Between prior, there were the local comedians in New York playing those clubs. I mean, I wasn't even old enough to get into those clubs, but I would see them on local shows and stuff like that. Where'd you, you grew up in Long Island? In Brooklyn. Oh, that's right. So you grew up in- Trump Village.

Trump Village. Yes. So did you see the old man? I saw the old man quite a bit. Oh, yeah? He would come around, make the rounds? Yeah. He looks like Satan.

Yeah. He's a very strange guy, and he would bring Donald along when Donald was like a teenager. Yeah. And it was Donald. He looks exactly the same as he looks today. Same vibe. Same vibe, same hair. Yeah.

Always the long coat. What were they doing there? They weren't fixing anything. Were they just collecting money? Yeah. They used to. The Little League Field was going to open, so they came to the opening of the Little League Field. Or there was a new thing at the building, and they would come to do something like that.

You've got brothers and sisters? I have a younger brother, and then I have— Oh, the Trumpy. The Trumpy. He's a cool guy. I mean, he's a great guy. That's what I mean. It's like when you talk—for me, I have talked to so many people who I would disagree with vehemently about things.

I realized, as you were talking about before, there is a humanity there, and I'm always curious about that humanity. One-on-one, you can see the vulnerability. Absolutely. But now when they can just act anonymously on social media platforms or go to rallies, it becomes a different— Or actually vote for the wrong person. Sure.

So that's bad, too. Not that there's a right person anymore, by the way. Right. Right. I understand what you're saying. But I think what's more disturbing is how they manage their mind. Yes. How do you compartmentalize hate with humanity? And it's an interesting phenomenon, I think. So when you're growing up, what are you doing? You're already a comedy fan early on?

My father was a failed comedian. Who was that? His name, his name, his professional name was Psy Co, the exotic neurotic. And he came out of, he came out of World War II like a lot of the guys did, Buddy Hackett, Jan Murray, all those guys wanting to be a comedian. There were a lot of them. I read that, what is it, John Berger book? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's also the Lenny Bruce book, also the Albert Goldman book, talks about Hanson's

and all those. But it just talks about that there was an explosion. And there were guys doing each other's acts. There was like at least a dozen guys performing in uniform. Absolutely. And it was just, it was a racket at the dinner club. My father used the GI Bill to go to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts and try to become an actor. And he failed at that and he failed at the comedy and eventually fell out of it.

But he was always at home on all the time. So I was exposed to a lot of comedy. We didn't have records actually, but he knew all the schtick. Yeah. And he was constantly doing schtick. And he was constantly, instead of saying, did you do your homework? He would like, we'd watch like Public Enemy. He'd ask me like trivia questions.

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what business did he end up in? He drifted through a lot of businesses. He eventually became like a hospital accountant. And then eventually towards the end of his life had like a medical supply business, a small thing.

Did he live long enough to see your success? Yes, but he was kind of competitive with me, sadly. They always are. Yeah. how did that manifest itself he would say uh i saw you on tv you look fat oh yeah you know stuff like that that's not competitive that's uh that's a passive-aggressive drag you down to his level you know you can't succeed if i didn't if i may i'll tell you a perfect story about my father and fame and my success. I was working on Seinfeld. My father came to California, which he rarely did.

And he said to me right from the time he arrived, he said, I want to take a picture with Jerry. Yeah. And I said, look, Dad, I don't ask people for favors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how I get a buy in life. I don't ask anybody for anything. I don't owe anybody. They don't owe me.

He's like, I really want that picture. I'm like, I'm not going to do it. And so the week went by. He kept on hocking me about it. On Friday, the last day he was here, he's like, come on. I want to take that picture with Jerry. I was like, I relented. And I brought him to work in Studio City.

And I went up to Jerry, who's very graceful. I said, hey, my dad's here. You want to take a picture with you? He's like, yeah, sure. Come on. We went outside to take the picture. Before we took it, Jerry said, you know what, Larry? Let's take the three of us.

Right. So we took a picture with the three of us. Then my father said, I'd like to get one with just me and Jerry. So he took the one with him and Jerry also. About a year later, I'm in his house in Long Island. Yeah. And on the mantle is the picture of him and Jerry. Sure.

You know. Of course. That says it all about who he was. And what about your mom? My mom was a saint. She was a sweet lady. She was killed in a, she was like enjoying her life

in Florida and she was killed in a car accident. And like the nicest, my father, who was kind of a prick, lived to be 91. My mother was like cut short and so unfair, you know, and,

and that's one that I- They were retired already? Yeah. Well, my father had just retired really. They were together? They were not together. They had broken up, but my stepmother and my mother died the same week. Wow. And that kind of broke my father, I think, to some degree. And he started to kind of drift after that. Oh, yeah. You know, the big payoff is not great. No, no. And also, that's another illusion that we sort of labor under is like the peaceful death. You know, it just doesn't work that way, man.

You know, you're not usually in bed, surrounded by your family. It's like you passed out on that mountain. That could have been it for you. Yeah. You know, alone on a fucking mountain like Julian Sands. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. There's always plenty of options to think about. That's right. And I think you and I are the kind of people that think a lot about them. I really try not to, but there are moments where, like, if you go deep with it, you know, I do have moments where I'm, like, going to bed and I'm like, is this it? Yeah. What about in the middle of the night?

That's what I get. Am I going to wake up? Right. Yeah. But if I really go deep with the existential terror, you know, it's literally unmanageable. Yeah. And that something clicks in that stops it. And yet that dread is a completely appropriate reaction to our lives.

Of course. They're dreadful. I apply it to everything. Yeah, and I think that filter really works. I mean, that's a reality for us. That kind of keeps us grounded to have that dread. People that sort of program themselves to not experience it. Yes.

In light of their own selfish, specific worlds. But not comedians. No, not many of them. Some of them, like, I think. Are there well-balanced comedians? I think I've learned over the arc of doing this show and talking to many of them, there are a few well-balanced comedians, but there's more well-balanced people who come out of sketch and improv.

Right. Interesting. Because they know how out of sketch and improv. Right. Interesting. Because they know how to work with other people. Right. That's so true. I mean, the solo quality

of being a stand-up. Yeah, you gotta be a fucking lunatic. Yeah. A broken person. Right, right. To need that love.

However, I also believe, having worked with a lot of comedians too, that the experience of being on stage and having the love from the audience is like a chemical

longevity potion in a way. But I'm not unlike you. And from what I hear, I'm not unlike Larry, that I would defy that love. Whatever I'm looking for, it may be to honor what I was presented with as a child as love, but I don't buy it. Right. And I'd much rather, you know, as soon as they like me, create some discomfort. Correct, correct. And alienate them somehow. Sure, but there are plenty of comics that just, you know, eat it up.

Exactly, and I think like, I'm friends with Billy Crystal. He's somebody, I remember seeing George Burns when I was young. I used to write for David Steinberg when I was like, you know, in my teens. And he would take me to the Tonight Show or things like that.

I'd meet Johnny Carson and stuff. And I remember George Burns, before he went on, he would be sitting in a chair like, he was like a rag doll. Yeah. And they'd go, this is George Burns. He would come to life, 100 years old. He was in there, he was rocking, you know.

That's great. So there's something about that wave of love. Even if you are rejecting it, it's still permeating. Well, it's connectivity. You know, it's being seen and having an experience. It's a public experience and you're being, you know, you're, yeah. I have a hard time framing it as love, but it's something. But beyond the psychological element of it, there is a chemical element as well, I believe. Sure, of course, of course. You're having a dopamine rush. Something like that is going on.

And for me, because of how I do it, there's no autopilot. So you're never more connected than on stage in that dynamic. Yeah, well, the great comedians to me are like jazz players. And so you are going to adjust and play and feel and let that show be different than the next show or the last show. I am. Some don't. Yeah.

I agree. I say it's half and half. Right. Some people really get stuck in their acts. Yeah. But really, and it's also, you know, like I love Paul McCartney. I know he's been on your show. And I love Bob Dylan.

Yeah. You know, but Bob Dylan, you will never see the same song performed the same way with Bob Dylan. And with Paul McCartney, he can still nail the Beatles recordings, you know? And that's kind of the two ways to sort of look at that live performing thing. Yeah. Well, there's big show business. Yeah.

And then there's the little fuckers like me. Yeah. And Dylan also. Well, Dylan's a big fucker. Yeah. He's a big fucker now. In big show business. Yeah.

But yeah, I think that- He defies all these rules, by the way, for some reason. Of course. But I think it's wrong to—I think you really have to give him credit as being one of the great comedians in so many ways. I completely agree with you. And most people don't get his—he's so funny that most people don't really get his humor. Yeah, yeah. And the thing is, he doesn't care.

Of course. That's the key to Bob. But there's a moment that for me really sort of nails him. It's in that Rolling Thunder movie, whatever the hell that was. Ronaldo and Clara. Yeah, but no, the one that Scorsese did. Oh, right, right, right. No direction home. Right. Well, there's a moment where he gets off stage after the first performance, right? And I think it was a reporter goes, hey, Bob, how do you feel? And he goes, about what?

Yeah, yeah. That's exactly, you know, I spent two years with him, you know, writing this and making this movie with him, you know. And he would always, and Don't Look Back, there's a great moment where a girl's running up to the limo and going, can I get your autograph? And he says, I'd give it to you if you needed it. Yeah, yeah. And then to you if you needed it.

Yeah, yeah. And then they drive away, you know? It's like he has, or like, I had people come up to him all the time when we were doing the movie, and they go, what was it like going electric? And he's like, well, what was it like for you? Yeah, yeah, right. And then they don't have an answer,

and he walks away. Or he also has another thing where you can- It's a Socratic brain fog. Oh, my God. He will do things like you'll ask him a question. Not i actually wound up having a good rapport with him but i'd see people asking him a question and he would just not answer well yeah i mean would you break all the the rules jerry does that yeah oh he does yeah as now yeah like he yeah but uh but no but the thing about dylan is that like if you if you go back back far enough, you kind of know what he is and you know who he is.

He's like this sort of displaced Jewish kid who grew up worshiping people and then he would appropriate them and then kind of put it through the Dylan mill and kind of evolve. But now, you know, for me, I'm kind of weird about him in that like, yeah, because he puts out whatever these albums are. The last record, I was like,

do I need a fucking 18 minute song that mentions Don Henley? That's why I got hung up on that. I'm like, well, you got to bring Don Henley in. I got nothing against Don Henley,

but why is he in the fucking song? And then, but there's a point where it's like, look, man, if Dylan wants to die on a bus, so be it. Yeah.

I think he's okay with it. He's somebody who has come to some terms with this. You know, all these questions that we're asking, he has kind of transcended it. In every song, there's like nine or ten pivotal Dylan songs where, you know, he's dancing around the question, you know, elaborately. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Always exploring it from different aspects. In Rough and Rowdy Ways, which is the last album. That's what I'm talking about. Right.

The Kennedy song, The Murder Most Foul. That's where he mentioned fucking Henley. Yeah. See, I love that song, though. Why? There was something that really, Don Henley aside for a second, the idea of him sort of recounting almost like a bard-like retelling of the death of John Kennedy, I found very moving.

I think he's talking about the conspiracies. He's talking about all the realities surrounding the death and how the country has basically gone downhill since then. And he's written some version of that song every 10 years. That's true. And that's something that really kind of plagues him, I think, on some level, is the way the country has sort of evolved. But that movie is difficult for most people.

Yes. Most people don't even know it exists, I find, which is interesting. And then they see it, and again, it provokes in very good ways also. And it's also more prescient. It's actually kind of prophetic, ironically and inadvertently today because it really talks about the very same. Again, like we're talking about George Carlin. We talked about things in that movie that still exist today. The poverty, the homelessness, all that kind of the encroaching fascism of the country.

A third world America controlled by, you know, despots. Yeah. And, but, you know, his genius is like, it's, it's delivered to him. And I, and I think that like you were, you were given the privilege through either persistence or time to, to, to appreciate the fact that like, he's a Jewish guy I can interface with. That's right. Exactly. Ultimately we had that connection. It was very simple, really, in a way. Yeah. And he gets it. Yeah. You know, but, but there's a couple of moments with him simple, really, in a way. Yeah, and he gets it. Yeah, yeah.

You know, but there's a couple of moments with him where, you know, that moment on the Grammys where Shanling. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's one of the most, that's one of the best comedic moments I've ever seen in my life where, you know, Nicholson is presenting Dylan with that Lifetime Achievement Award. And they're both, you know, Nicholson's high. Right. And Dylan's like, you know, Nicholson's high. Right. And Dylan's like, you know, pausing where he's like, oh, it's like my dad always said. You know, and then this long pause.

And he said a lot of things. And then, like, you know, it's just like the most awkward moment. And then they go to commercial and Shanley comes back and says, I was just backstage. Bob Dylan and Jack Nicholson were just discussing how they should do more television. Yeah. Well, I think the thing I admire so much about Bob is that he does not give a shit. No, it's great.

He can have these awkward moments, these embarrassing moments. He's had more public humiliations and failures than any popular person. Yeah. And he's still here doing it, you know? And he's doing a lot. Yeah. He's welding things. Yeah.

Yeah, because I called Rosen. I called Rosen it you know and he's doing a lot yeah he's welding things yeah yeah because i called i called rosen you know and i was like you know i was trying to get dylan on the whatever the thousandth episode right and you know we you know and yeah the bookers were like that's a tough one maybe you write him a letter and i wrote a letter like a fucking schmuck and then they said why don't you call jeff you know and i and i'd met him before and i said that's great yeah so i'll call rosen up and i and I do this whole spiel. And I'm like, look, man, you know, I think you know the show. I've met you before. And, you know, we're doing this thousands episode.

I've interviewed a lot of presidents and whatever. And, you know, it'd just be a real honor if I could, you know, get Bob to do the thousands episode. What are the chances of that happening? And he goes, zero. He was straight with you. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, the thing is, Bob is the kind of person that he'll go, you He was straight with you. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, the thing is, Bob is the kind of person that he'll go, you know, I like that Mark Maron. Sure, right, right. Get me on the show.

Throw him a bone, yeah, yeah, yeah. He'll do weird stuff that just kind of strikes him in the moment. Yeah, yeah. So going back to the 70s, so your dad's doing his shtick and whatever. Right, yeah. But how do you get into comedy? Well, I started, you know, I was like really into comedy. I was watching TV.

I was the kind of person that used to memorize the comedy writer's credits. Yeah. Like on Laugh-In and stuff like that. Did you read My Favorite Jokes at the back of Parade Magazine? Do you remember that? No, because my father didn't get the Daily News. Oh, right. We only got the New York Times.

Right. So I did not read that. But I used to watch the comedians on Ed Sullivan and I was very into it. I loved getting laughs in school, getting the class clown kind of thing. And so I didn't know how to break in. Woody Allen really was the person

that kind of gave me an insight into a path, which was he was from the same neighborhood and he started writing jokes for people. Right. And I thought, well that might be a way that I could get in by writing jokes. And when I came out to California. When was this? This was like 77, 76, 77.

But were you doing standup? No, no, I wasn't doing anything. Yeah. But I was writing jokes. Yeah. On a yellow pad. Yeah. And handwriting.

Yeah. For a comedian. Yeah. And I would go to the comedy store and I'd stand in front of the comedy store. In the 77? Yeah. And I would say, hey, you want to buy a joke? If I recognize the comedian, Tom Dreesen, Joe Restivo, all these obscure comedians at

the time. Dreesen's back. Yeah. And he's a survivor. But they would buy, they would look at the joke and they'd buy a joke. They'd say, like Jay Leno was the first one that really bought a joke for me. And he said, I'll give you $10 if it works on stage. Yeah.

And you know how the comedy stories, you can watch through the window. Right, yeah. And I saw the thing get a laugh. I got the 10 bucks. And I started being a person that you can come to for jokes. And you how old? I was like 19.

Yeah. And one of the comedians was a guy named Darryl Iges, a black comedian. And he got cast on the show Fridays. Right. And I was back in New York at that time. I kind of quit LA and I came back again and he had recommended me for the show Fridays

and I went in and I got the job. And then I met Larry David there. So you didn't do stand-up? I did stand-up here and there. I was not, you know, you have to be the best version of yourself on stage to be a great stand-up. Well, you didn't give it a chance. Right, I didn't give it a chance.

What was your angle? I used to come out, like I would do things like I would dress like a Hasid and rap, you know, rap the Tefillin. You know, I mean, I was like- Whatever. Yeah. Whatever it took. I did bits, but I wrote good jokes for some reason.

I was able to write good jokes and I was able to sell those. And I saw my stand-up career wasn't good. I was working places like, do you remember a place like John's Place on Vermont? There used to be these obscure little clubs all over the city. No,

it was before my time. That's when I used to go on stage in those kind of places. And I never felt that I was really doing the best version of it. Well, who was, who was around at that time

that made an impression on you that you were seeing live that nobody knows anymore? Well, I was able to see prior. Sure. At that time, there were a couple you that you were seeing live that nobody knows anymore? Well, I was able to see prior. Sure. At that time, there was a guy named Tim Havy

who wound up committing suicide. There was a number of comedians who didn't make it. Yeah, of course. And there were some guys that were really super funny and just couldn't keep their shit together.

Yeah, sure. Like Lenny Schultz back in New York and people like that. Lenny Schultz, yeah, yeah. Well, he was at it a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He worked. He couldn't keep his shit together,, he was at it a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He worked.

He could keep his shit together, but he was the human incarnation of filthy chaos. That's true. That's true. I guess there was an audience for him. That's true. His son was coming around for a while. I don't know what he was doing. Really?

That's weird. Yeah. Omar Sharif's son came to the screening. I thought that was kind of weird. Huh. Yeah. They were around, these kids? Yeah, right.

Exactly. Well, that was a- Non-successful nepo weird. Huh, yeah. They're around, these kids? Yeah, right, exactly. Well, that was a- Non-successful nepo babies. Sure, yeah. They do exist. They outnumber the successful ones. But that's a fairly prescient and responsible thing to realize, that you have this talent and you don't have to do this thing that's killing people.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. Well, also, being on stage made me fucking sick. talent and you don't have to do this thing that's killing people yeah yeah exactly yeah well also being on stage made me fucking sick i could i was somebody who would vomit before i went on yeah and i thought this is crazy yeah i don't want to you know i can't do it but i do i'm much more comfortable with myself now so i'm more comfortable kind of like talking to an audience and stuff like yeah so so you you get pulled into fridays and you meet Larry, and you meet Michael Richards. There were some other people on that crew. I can't remember who they were or what happened to them, but I remember watching that.

Yeah. Because everyone, when I was a kid, I was an SNL person, and you're like, what's this thing that they're doing over there? Right, yeah. But it was good. We had some great bands also. To me, that was almost as exciting as anything, to hang out with The Clash, smoking spliffs with The Clash,

the Boomtown Rats. We had a couple of really cool bands on that show. And what was the first interaction with Larry? At our first writers' meeting, he's about 10 years older than me, so at our first writers' meeting, he starts talking, and I could tell he was from Brooklyn.

I didn't know anything about him yeah and we immediately just kind of gravitated towards each other in that first writers meeting yeah and connected yeah and that was it we became friends and he really more he became like a mentor to me yeah because i was a parking valet before i got that job you know that was the only real yeah i, I used to park cars at Century City. Yeah. Places like that. So he kind of helped me become a writer, really.

He kind of showed me the discipline and the craft a little bit of how to take my ideas, which were good, and focus and make them into a coherent sketch. Did you go do stand-up with him? I mean, watch him? I watched him do stand-up. I saw him storm off stage many times, you know, and spit, I saw him spit at the audience. Yeah, I saw him spit at the audience. You know, I work with Belzer a lot also.

I love Belzer. So I was at catch a lot. Belzer's a sweet guy. Oh, he was great. Yeah, yeah. Another inadvertent mentor to me. I mean, he was just really always very paternal to me. I was lucky that those guys were so nice to me and so generous to me and let me sort of watch and

observe and absorb. Well, there's their two opposite, their opposites of the size of the same coin is where Bell's was sort of like, you know, kind of let it roll off him and didn't, you know, invest as personally as Larry did. Yeah. Yeah. But Larry was very, you know, Larry's very generous person. Sure. No. Yeah. So I always felt. Not generous with this show. I'm going to add again, because. He's the other person you haven. No, I agree. Yeah. So I always found- Not generous with this show, I'm going to add again. He's the other person you haven't gotten on. That's crazy. Yeah.

Well, you know, I made a documentary. During COVID, I actually shot a documentary with Larry. I did a four-hour conversation with him that I cut in with clips and everything. It was great. And for reasons that I'm not going to get into now, they pulled it on the day of the premiere. So it's never been seen. It was supposed to be on HBO.

What? Like in January, yeah. What the fuck? So I had an issue with him also. We actually haven't spoken since then. Oh, so it was on him. Yes. So he's got, okay, okay.

He wants to maintain the mystery. Exactly. I think that's exactly what's happened to him, which wasn't the way he was. He's kind of entered that realm a little bit more than he was at one time. So you write Fridays, and you're just churning away. You're learning how to construct arcs and seeing through them.

But writing about anything that I feel like, which is incredible. If I wanted to do a science fiction parody or a movie parody, whatever it was, I could do it. It was really fun. But when do you sense, and obviously Larry, not necessarily material-wise, but as a person, when do you sense that, you know, you are compelled to push buttons? That's a good question. You know, it's interesting. got to the TV show, I was somebody that enjoyed pushing buttons, that enjoyed fucking with people,

that enjoyed using my verbal skills to sort of manipulate. You know, I think I had a sociopathic kind of tendency to take advantage of, you know, whatever my skills were. So I liked pushing a button. I liked seeing people upset or throwing people or fucking with people. I always enjoyed that even as a kid. And in my neighborhood, it was a very cutthroat neighborhood. And the insulting and the abusing was part of the dynamic of growing up. And also, I think when you have sort of a grandiose or narcissistic or steamrolling father, you know, there's only a few instinctual ways to get in there. That's very true as well. Very true. I never even thought about that, actually.

You know, that they're like, I really thought about it recently in a conversation I had with some guy who quit comedy recently, that, you know, when you have that overbearing thing and these guys that are, you know, controlling one way or the other, maybe not disciplinarians,

but just erratic emotionally. Yes, needy. Needy, but, you know, kind one way or the other, maybe not disciplinarians, but just erratic emotionally and needy, but, but, you know, but, you know, kind of big, right. Relentlessly needy. Right. You know, just to keep them at bay, you've got to be able to, well, that's my father's ego was completely unchecked. Yes. And since he had no satisfaction and fulfillment in his life, it, it even, it sort of grew in very perverse ways.

Right. So to do what that, what that skill of, of, of fucking with people, it buys you a little space. Yeah. And it's, it keeps you from being consumed by whatever. Yeah. I'm safe inside my own head. Yeah.

Yeah. And here are my defenses. Right. These are my protections. My armor. Go fuck yourself. Yeah. And that was an armor to some degree.

I agree. Especially in Brooklyn, it was a survival tactic. Sure. You know. And so when do you start noticing that comedically, I guess it was probably with Seinfeld, where you want to push the envelope a little bit and something, you know, the collective kind of harnessed you maybe a little? Well, you know, I was never somebody that was only into comedy.

I think like you, I have very eclectic taste. Yeah. So I didn't know what the, I wasn't thinking about a career even when I got that job. What else were you into? I was into, like, I thought I was going to wind up being like a Bukowski-like writer, writing short stories, working in the post office. I would have been pretty cool with that, actually. Yeah, right.

Then I thought, well, maybe I'll just be a comedy writer. I'll just sell jokes and be freelance. At that time, you could still be a freelance person, you know? There was a way to do that as a writer. Well, it's coming back. Yeah, right, exactly. But I would write articles. I wrote porno humor for Screw Magazine.

I wonder. I was going to bring up Al. Yeah, yeah. Because the last time I saw Goldstein. Another inadvertent mentor. Of course. And that's why I said at the beginning, patriarchy aside, the last time I saw Goldstein, he was working at J&R Cigars. Oh, man. He was like a fixture at J&R Cigars.

And I think it was primarily because he could just smoke all fucking day. And he was broke. Yeah. If Penn Jillette wasn't helping him out. I don't know. You know, that guy was. Yeah. But.

He took a big fall. Totally. Yeah. But Screw Magazine was sort of ever present. Yeah. In this weird way. Yeah. And kind of maintained its underground status.

Yes. Well, and for me, it was like, it was a very transgressive thing. It was. Yeah. And like, and my friends a very transgressive thing. It was. Yeah. And like my friends were very transgressive. And so to make my friends laugh, I had to go. We were into sick humor, you know, like what they would accuse Lenny of. We thought that was hysterical, dead baby jokes or whatever it is.

But that was what Lenny gave the culture. Yeah. Right. And sort of it took off through filth mags. Right. And with the writers, with Friedman as well. Yeah. And-

Bruce J. Friedman. Sure, Jerry Stahl, to a degree, was writing for those magazines. It was all- A mutual friend of ours. Yes. Yes.

But see, like, you know, to me, that was the heyday of stuff. And both, you know, as it evolved, the left and the right

began to have a problem with it. Yeah. And, you know, I get it. But it's sort of amazing to me, you know, as it evolved, the left and the right began to have a problem with it. Yeah. And, you know, I get it. But it's sort of amazing to me, you know, that it's very hard to capture the menace of a smaller cultural world that those things held for people who were gravitated towards them. But also as, you know, touch points in the culture. touch points in the culture. Well, I remember walking down the street in Brighton Beach Avenue when I was in elementary school

and I had like a little bit, like a quarter or something of 50 cents and there used to be used bookstores along Brighton Beach. And I went into one bookstore and liked the cover of Catch-22 and it was a quarter. Yeah.

And I bought that book like in sixth grade and read it and, you know, those kind of, it blew my mind. It's like, you could be funny talking about death. Yeah. you could be funny talking about death. Yeah. You could be funny talking about all these forbidden, verboten type of things.

Sure. That for some reason. It takes one thing. It blew my mind. For me, it was looking at a collection of underground comics in a B. Dalton bookstore. Absolutely. At some Spain panel and, you know,

and also some R. Crumb stuff. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah. The arc, after being a Mad Magazine person to get into The Lampoon. That was, yeah, it was my book. And then Zap Comics. Totally. That, those were all, these were all, and then the 70s, everything was kind of blowing up like that.

Yeah, I wrote the foreword for Drew's book, The Portraits of the Underground Comic Artist. I love Drew's work. But I was with CK, like one one day just fucking around in the village. We went into a blockbuster, and there was a bargain bin, and I saw him buy Putney Swope. Right. And he had never heard of it. Right. And it changed his entire fucking approach to filmmaking.

See, I saw those movies in the theaters. Yeah. Used to go into Manhattan, and you could see Putney Swope and Grease. Yeah. Or Grease's Palace, it was called, the other movie of his. Or you could see Pink Flamingos or Rocky Horror or Italian movies, you know, like Rossellini or I was a Godard freak. Sure.

You know, I mean, I wanted to see things that broke the rules and I think all of that stuff just kind of, I absorbed and that became my sensibility somehow. Yeah. But I like that this movie on, on a very real way is, is an became my sensibility somehow. Yeah, but I like that this movie, in a very real way, is an homage to Waters. Absolutely. You know, when I was in high school, my parents got divorced.

My mother moved us to Florida. I went to high school in Florida, and I met a girl finally, and I had a date finally with a girl. I was, like, really lonely, and I took her on a date to the movies, and I took her to see Female Trouble movies and I took her to see um female trouble and she never spoke to me again yeah yeah but I was turned on to John Waters yeah that had so

much of an impact on my life yeah John Waters sensibility it's like wow how did he because I used to think to myself back in Brooklyn how do these people get this these movies made yeah he got his parents to actually uh finance Flamingos, which was good. But it was like still shocking to me that you can go to a movie theater and see Divine eat dog shit. Yeah. I couldn't believe it, you know? But I wanted more.

It's so funny. You're the kind of guy that's sort of like, this is like the moon landing. Yeah. That's right. That's right. It was so mind-blowing, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. Yeah.

I couldn't believe that somebody would do that, and I couldn't believe somebody filmed it, and I couldn't believe I was sitting in a movie theater watching it. But it's interesting because it's not, you know, given your skill set, it's not funny per se. Right. It's just fucking, you know, ballsy. Yeah. And insane. Yeah.

And completely counterculture. Yes, exactly. All those things that appeal to me. But could I add a wave of laughter to it? Could those things that were ballsy and outrageous and shocking and even disgusting lead to massive laughs? And that's what I started to explore. I wanted to do things that weren't – I wanted to make fun – I wanted to do comedy about things that weren't normally funny. Right.

But you were enabled to write like many of the best early Seinfelds. And, you know, you were rewarded for that. Yes. But ultimately in the arc of it, would you stay there for like six seasons? Four. Four. Yeah. Did you feel tethered?

Did you feel hampered? Yes. Yes, I did. I mean, at the beginning, I was just simply grateful. But I remember saying to Larry one day when I was struggling with a story, you know, I never really thought of myself as a comedy writer. And he said, I wish you had told me that before. You know? So I used to try to find premises that wouldn't normally.

But you thought of yourself a joke writer. Yes. Yes. I wanted to make sure they were funny, but I wanted to see if I could make fun of situations that wouldn't normally be funny, like death and things like that, which I brought a lot of that. I had like psycho killers and all kinds of murder and horrible things happened to Seinfelds, but they were funny also.

So that's where you earned that. That's right. And Jerry and Larry were, luckily for me, again, extremely encouraging. They didn't try to steer me in any direction. They wanted me to do my version of Seinfeld, which was great. And then maybe they would change it a little bit. But mainly those shows are fairly intact, the ones that I wrote. But they also knew that you were a specific talent and you were inspired.

And they knew ultimately that like, we can always change this or that. Yeah. But also there was a, for me, there was like a George Harrison quality, which is how I started to feel a little more trapped there after four seasons because I wanted to get more of my songs on the albums.

You know what I mean? Yeah, sure. And I was never going to be able to do it with Paul McCartney and John Lennon being in charge, you know? And so I had to, I left the show,

even though I could have stayed forever, I left the show because I needed to do something else. I needed to explore another part of myself. But, so how did that go? Because you ended up doing more TV writing. I did. I did. Because I wasn't really, like, focused on, I had given up the dream.

I had thought about being a director a lot. And on Seinfeld, I would stand with Larry during the rehearsals and I would say to him, because the director was a very conventional TV director, and I'd go, you know, you should cut over to this guy or get a close-up on him. And I was doing a lot of that, right? But I thought as I left Seinfeld that, you know, I was being offered a lot of money to be a showrunner, to do that kind of work. And I had a family and I thought to myself, you know what? I have to give up on the dream of work. And I had a family and I thought to myself, you know what?

I have to give up on the dream of directing. And I gave up on it and I did a couple of TV shows, found that I was still super unhappy, you know. Which one? Mad About You?

I did Mad About You. I mean, it was nice and they were great. But I didn't, I was tortured at that time. Yeah, sure, sure. And I did The Tick, you know, and I did a couple other of these things. Dilbert, you did the Dilbert.

I did Dilbert with Scott Adams. What do you think of that guy going a little off? Do you see that coming? People are going off these days, you know. There's something in the air. It's like the invasion of the body central. He's a brilliant guy, and he's a fun guy. I really enjoyed my time working with him.

Yeah. And he taught me a lot of interesting things, very unique original mind. But I think he kind of slipped into that Trump world and started to believe his own hype to some degree. What did he teach you? Well, for instance, he told me that when he was an engineer at the Bell Telephone that he would write every day 15 times, Dilbert is going to be a hit. Dilbert is a hit. Yeah, yeah. And so when I did Borat, I thought, I'm going to try that affirmation thing.

Yeah. And I would write every day for like a year. Yeah. Borat is a phenomenon. Borat is a phenomenon. And it worked. You think that was it? Well, you know, I don't know.

It gave you the confidence. Yes. It manifested my energy in a way that I did everything I could to make it work. It held some insecurity at bay. That's right. And he also looks at things. He had a great ability to look at things from another angle. So I appreciated his unconventional way of thinking about things.

You know, he had an engineer's approach to life. He always was looking for a solution. You know, and the solutions I think is what led him to some of the weird right wing stuff he's gotten into. You know, he sees it as logical. He sees everything as it's got to be logical. Yeah. That's what he based the mystery, the X factor, even though he's into all of that, he's still

looking for logic in life. bought into the kind of decaying of American civilization because of entitlement programs and that kind of – so I'm trying to figure out how a guy with logic would buy into something. He's probably sort of the libertarian bent. Very much so. I think that would explain a lot, actually. Yeah. All right. So you do, like, so the first one you do is the Dylan movie, the directing?

Or you do Curb first? The first thing I do, and again, how did I become a director after having given up on it? Larry starts doing Curb, and he says to me, you should do one of these. You should direct one of these. And I said, okay. And then I was a director. For, like, how many? A lot of them. But I only did one before the Bob Dylan movie.

I did one episode and then I was working with Bob Dylan for a year, writing in a cubicle in the boxing gym there. And I would go home at night and I'd say to my now ex-wife, I would say, you know, I should really direct this, but I'm too embarrassed to really ask.

It's Bob Dylan. He can get anybody to direct this, but I should really direct this. I'm too embarrassed to really ask it's Bob Dylan he can get anybody to direct this but I should really direct this and she said why don't you just ask him and so the next day I went in and said you know Bob I really think I should direct this

and he was like okay and that was it so I was a director you know he probably walked away going that guy's got it coming that's right

I'm going to take him for a ride yeah yeah well nobody probably would have taken this was again another 20 days these were both the movie that's out now and that movie were both 20 day shoots That's right. I could take him for a ride. Yeah, yeah. Well, nobody probably would have taken, this was, again, another 20 days. These were both, the movie that's out now and that movie were both 20-day shoots, which is incredible to think about when movies take a year to shoot sometimes.

But in terms of how that movie come out, and you frame it that it's something you go back to and eventually you'll get if you can find it and watch it. But, I mean, how much did Bob say, I'm not going to do it that way? Well, right from the beginning, he said, I just want to tell you, I'm never going to watch this movie. That was one of the first things he ever said to me. So, I mean, he wanted to do all kinds. He wanted the whole movie with dance,

like all the action people. So he's just riffing. He's riffing all the time. Yeah, yeah. He was trying accents on me. Oh, boy. And I would go, why? Knowing that he didn't give a fuck. He didn't give a fuck,

and even his real voice isn't his voice. You know what I mean? There's no real him, really, and he knows that. He's a protean personality, you know, which we all are to some degree, but he's very conscious of those many masks. Well, most of us don't want to float. That's right.

That's right. And he's kind of gotten used to it. Yeah, because he'll grab something. That's right. Somebody will give him something to grab onto. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why. Oh, interesting.

So then you go back after that, do a bunch more curbs, and then you start knocking out a few movies. Well, because I failed in my first movie. I failed. I thought, oh, this is going to be the beginning of my movie career. I'm going to start getting offers. I'm going to make movies now, and I had nothing. Yeah. And so I went back to Curb.

Fortunately, Curb was great, great fun. I learned a lot. I had a good time. I directed a lot of cool episodes. And also, I guess you learned how to handle real improvisation with the camera, which was helpful in working with Sasha. Which came naturally to me to some degree also, I think. But also with Curb, I was able to expand

in terms of we were able to, I was executive producer for two seasons also. So we did some really cool shows, again, exploring, you know, can you make fun of the Holocaust? And, you know, looking at what humor can handle, what humor can exploring, you know, can you make fun of the Holocaust? Yeah. And, you know, like looking at what humor can handle. Yeah. What humor can hold. Right.

You know, and I find, and again, like the Lenny Bruce inspiration, I find all that very exciting and exhilarating. And he was willing. And also you understood how Larry thought. So you knew where you were going to end up. Exactly. You know, before the structure became almost a hack of itself. Correct, correct.

And now it's so derivative now, of course. There's so many things that are like that. Well, it became derivative of itself after a certain point because you could just refill it. Yeah, it's like Ouroboros. Sure, but it's interesting that something like that that was so radical because you saw the sort of the kind of singular voice that drove

the sensibility of seinfeld yes doing its thing in its purest format yes but then there was no way it it couldn't become exactly what seinfeld wasn't that's right which was uh a successful franchise yeah repetition yeah that's right well all all tv series are sequels yeah you know every week you're going back. It's almost like church. Sure. People want to hear the same prayers and sing the same psalms. Yeah.

You know, there is something about that repetition that makes people comfortable. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I can never, one of my problems as a stand-up, even if I had good material, I couldn't do the same bit twice in a row. Yeah, eventually you get bored of them. Yeah. Once they work, it's sort of like, do I got to keep doing this?

Yeah. I could never, I could never lock into my act and make it sound spontaneous the next time. The trick is really as if you would have stuck with it is, is once you, once you get a new five minutes and you stick that in the middle, everything else kind of perks up again. That's how I see it.

I see. I didn't learn that lesson at the time. Yeah. It's like you got the new chunk and then you get the juice from the new chunk and then you can kind of ride it through the old stuff. Yeah. And maybe it'll even involve the old stuff. Of time. Yeah, it's like you got the new chunk, and then you get the juice from the new chunk, and then you can kind of ride it through the old stuff. Yeah, and maybe it'll even involve the old stuff into something else. Yeah. If you're that kind of writer.

Yeah. All right, but once you do Borat, which is huge. Yeah. And Borat only happened, I had met Sasha a couple years before, and he started the movie with Todd Phillips, actually. Yeah. And they didn't get along, and Todd Phillips left, and they came to me and said, would you

be interested in doing this? Yeah. And I loved Borat from the Ali G show, and I knew it was going to be funny. Super funny. And you knew that guy was a gifted fucker. Oh, my God. Well, we also agreed at the beginning, we want

to make the funniest movie ever made. Yeah. Like, that was the aspiration, you know? And he was, at that time time ready to go for it. Yeah. You know, he had no inhibitions at all. Yeah. Even though he's a very conventional person.

I don't know if you ever had an interview with him. Yeah, I did. Oh, okay. Yeah. He's a very conventional person in a lot of ways, but intellectually brilliant. Yeah. And really wanting to make-

I don't know if it's conventional or British. Right. Well, that's a distinction that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And really wanting to make. I don't know if it's conventional or British. Right. Well, that's a distinction that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, he's a family man. Sure. It's like, he's not Bruno.

He's not Borat. Yeah, of course. He's like, he's able to really immerse himself. Yeah. It's an amazing thing. I felt like after he had done Borat, like that was an Oscar worthy performance. Sure. Like it changed acting the way Marlon Brando did in On the Waterfront.

Yeah. You know, you can never, he's acting with real people. Yeah. And it's credible. Yeah. You know, I thought that was a really kind of one of the miracles of the movie, but he wasn't really recognized for that, which I thought was kind of unfair. It's also the height of perfecting improvisation in a way. Yes, exactly.

Because he doesn't, we don't know what the other person is going to say. Sure, exactly. You know, and that made an interest. But yet he had in his pocket, maybe he told you this, he had a book of translations that actually had material in it. So if he forgot a question, if he forgot something, he had his little, he would ask, well, what word, how does he use, and he'd look up the word and he'd look for the joke. Oh, that's clever.

So he had that, yeah. He wasn't immersed in a method way. Well, he was immersed. Yeah, but he knew he was still doing a thing. He was able to maintain that duality, which is tricky in those kind of tense situations. Sure, sure. The type of egos that you had to sort of engage with really means that you have a fundamentally codependent person. Yes, I'm afraid that's so.

To sort of deal with Bill Maher for even more than a day is some sort of Herculean task. Yeah, I know. Mickey Rourke I've worked with and Val Kilmer. But religious. Religious with Bill, sure. You did that because you thought it was ideologically up your alley? Yeah. After Borat was done, we talked about doing a sequel to Borat. And I had this idea of Borat because the religion in Kazakhstan was the worship of the hawk.

Yeah. And I thought, well, maybe they should find a new religion for Kazakhstan. And he would go around the world and explore new religions. And we would have some fun with that. Yeah. He didn't want to do that. Right. find a new religion for Kazakhstan and he would go around the world and explore new religions and we would have some fun with that. He didn't want to do that. So, but I thought to myself, wow, religion. And I thought about all the movies and all the pop culture references and I saw that movie. And then I was told that Bill was also working on a kind of movie that was about religion. We met, it was the first time we met. Yeah. And even though we had a million mutual friends

like you and I probably do. And we were able to synthesize those two movies into one movie. Yeah. And it was okay experience? It was great. Yeah.

It was a lot of fun. I had like a, you know, a van full of people, that was it, and Bill, and we just drove around, rolling.

Well, he's one of those guys, the funny thing about him, I think, and I don't really necessarily love what he's become. Right. It's controversial, certainly. one of those guys, the funny thing about him, I think, and I don't really necessarily love what he's become. Right. It's controversial, certainly. But if you can disarm him, he's kind of just a kid.

Yeah, exactly. I always got along with him great. I mean, I found him to be a much more open, flexible person than he comes off in the TV persona. Well, yeah. Well, he's out in the world and he's a, you know, he's a heavily written for guy. Yeah. So he probably needed you to support him. He did trust me.

And we were in place. He just, he hates to travel, you know, to these foreign countries. So he was already sort of a little nervous. Yeah. Yeah. So, and he would get out of the van, do the thing and get back in the van and go. But then I would take the crew and we would go shoot other stuff. Yeah.

So I had a great time. It was really fun. That's interesting. And Bruno and the Dictator were very specific kind of characters to sort of get at something more specific than Borat. Yeah. Although, you know, the funny thing is Borat, because it was such a success, success breeds kinship. Success breeds camaraderie. Success breeds love on this kind of superficial level.

But when you deal with failure, everybody goes running from the ship. And blaming. Yeah, so Bruno was a much more complicated. I think it's like Paul's Boutique compared to Licensed to Ill. It's a complicated movie. Really? There are people that like it better? No one, I don't know about that, actually.

But Paul's Boutique has definitely got its, you know. Right. It's grown, though. Sure. It wasn't really loved at first. But Licensed to Ill is a punk rock record. You know, Borneal changed the face of hip hop. Right.

Well, Borat, to me, is much more the punk rock movie. And Bruno is much more the Paul's Boutique where it's complicated. We didn't set out to do what the movie became. We set out to have this funny gay character, you know, do these things. Yeah. But it turned out that America was so homophobic that the movie took a very dark turn. Yeah. And that became a much more interesting movie in a way, but not as funny maybe.

Right. You know. Yeah, absolutely. And The Dictator was just like a very sort of broad, you know, attack. This is where really, you know, I had a long conversation with Sasha about studying the buffon, the buffoon. Yes. And that was his great buffoon.

Yes. Yeah. Was his great buffoon. Yes. Was that character. Right. But because it wasn't something he had worked on for years, with Borat, he knew the underwear he was wearing, the socks, what he had in his pocket. He didn't have that kind of time with Aladin, the dictator. So he wound up not being quite as detailed as it could have been. And he had a second part

that he really didn't have time to work on enough. And so that second part, that Prince and the Pauper type of story had to be de-emphasized to a large degree. So the movie had a much more epic quality originally, and it kind of wound up becoming another version of the one-man show, which I think really hurt the movie and also changed my sensibility again

because that was a big-budget movie with pressure from the studio and I didn't get the support and I vowed to myself I would never make a movie like that again and I wouldn't. I would never make a big-budget, crazy thing like that. But the Army of One was a scripted thing. It was semi-scripted, semi-improv with Nick Improv. I had Nick Improv. never make a big budget crazy thing like that but the army of one was a scripted thing it was a semi-scripted semi-improv with nick nick improv i had nick improv and how was that for you i love nick nick is one of those people that will go to the mat with you yeah he's great we had a great

time together he's great i love him yeah i love him and russell brand played god in that movie yeah yeah yeah yeah it's not helping him now no No, no. I haven't posted any of the clips either. Yeah. I probably wouldn't do that. But, yeah. Well, good for you. I'm trying to be nice. I like that you had a fight with that.

Yeah, I thought about it for a second. Because I love the movie, and that's the movie nobody's seen. He's great in it, by the way. And you do like to fuck with people. Of course. Why not? But why hit a guy when he's down? And Russell Brand could take it.

Not now. No, I guess not. Yeah. I guess not. But- Also had a great experience's down? And Russell Brand could take it. Not now. No, I guess not. Yeah. I guess not. But- Also had a great experience with him, by the way, I should say. Sure. He was a charming, great, he's one of the great intellectual giants.

Yeah. Maybe a sociopath, maybe, you know, other issues. Yeah. But really, really, when my interactions with him were just nothing but positive. So, like now, because it seems to me like after that filmography and then you going back to directing and now but this seems to be the, Dix, the musical, seems

to be the most realized film I agree. That you've done and that, you know, the collaboration that you are as a older, wiser guy were able to do. You clearly let people do their job. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm also allowed, you know, because I worked on the script with the guys and gave them a lot of notes and even wrote one of the drafts, that I'm able to, I don't, I will only take material that I feel like I can put myself into somehow. Sure.

You know, I'm involved with the movie from the very, very inception of the movie. And so I wanted to reflect the things that I'm thinking about as well. And I was able to do all those things, you know, or work on all those levels. And with massive talent. With massive talent, luckily. Yeah. Nathan Lane, I think Nathan Lane this year became, finally people realize he's a national treasure.

Yeah. You know, I mean, he's been great for so many years. Yeah. So maybe this is the movie that will people, you know, for him, he's won Tonys. He's been Angels of America. I don't necessarily want him to be remembered for feeding the sewer boys. Yeah. But I do appreciate the fact that that's maybe going to be his most famous sequence.

I like the outtakes. I don't know if that'll be, I mean, the songs. The songs, yeah. And Malali, you know, sang the shit out of that. Did you know that she had a voice? Yes. Yeah, I mean, the guys told me, Josh and Aaron, that she's a gay icon. Yeah.

And the Broadway stuff, I really wasn't aware of that as much as I should. But she's a huge Broadway star. Oh, she's great. She's great. And she and Nathan had worked together before. Yeah, yeah. So all of that really kind of came together. And she really built that weirdo character.

Completely. Yeah. Completely. And this is something I guess I'm about to tell you. Yeah. They wanted to, they didn't like what she was doing at first. Yeah. The producers.

Yeah. And they came to me and they said, we may have to let her go. And I'm like, what are you, crazy? What are you? She's creating, this is early in the shoot. But that's so weird and short-sighted because I find this happens sometimes. It's like, she's an actress.

Yeah. You know, I'll listen to what you say and if I agree with any of the adjustments, she'll do them. Yes, exactly. And that's exactly how we did it. I would not let them let her go. It would have closed out in the movie

and that would have been the end of it. Yeah. And I had faith in her and she was committed. Yeah. And I knew she had something on her mind that could work great. Yeah. And it wound up being like one of the highlights of the movie, her performance. Oh, yeah.

It's great. It all worked out great. Yeah. And I appreciate you coming. Oh, man. It was a pleasure to meet you. Yeah. Great talk.

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, man. Oh, of course. What kind of jam session was that? What kind of riff party was me and Larry, right? What an engaged conversation. I enjoyed that immensely.

Dicks, the musical opens tomorrow and expands across the country in the weeks ahead. Please, please, people, hang out for a minute. Every veteran has a story whatever your next chapter get support with health education finance and more at veterans.gc.ca services a message from the government of canada it's a night for the whole family be a part of kids night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a special 5 p.m start time on saturday march 9th at first ontario center in hamilton the first 5 000 fans in attendance will get a dan dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction punch your ticket to kids night on saturday march 9th at 5 p.m

in rock city at torontorock.com. Folks, I answered your question this week on the full Marin in the latest Ask Mark Anything episode. Thanks for all the questions you sent, including this one. Can you expand about why the night of the Chevy Chase roast was such a bad night for you personally. Well, I can. I had accepted to do the roast. I'm not really a roast comic. I don't really know how to do it. I still don't. I didn't really know how to do it then.

I'm not very good at insult comedy as a genre. You know, I can be funny in an insulting way, but I didn't really know the format. It made me nervous. I had to write a bunch of jokes. My ex-wife Mishna wrote a couple jokes, and it was before the roasts were really a thing. But the bottom line was it was a huge dais. There were just, it seemed like, 100 people on it.

Many of them had nothing to do with roasting. The audience was huge. It was at the Hilton, I think, in New York City, and they were eating. And it was just a flat night. Chevy didn't really want to engage or be there. Everyone was bombing. And I just had a very hard time bombing that hard in front of that many people and my peers. in front of that many people and my peers.

And it just kind of sent me spiraling into a kind of, not a nervous breakdown, but it was embarrassing. It was hard to bomb that hard. Look, they made it look good, but it just felt like a very public humiliation. Now, granted, any bomb is that in a way, but you do get used to it. It just felt like a very public humiliation. Now, granted, any bomb is that in a way, but you do get used to it. It just felt like a very dismissive room.

Chevy wasn't fun. There was nothing fun about it. And once the joke started crapping out, it's just like any other bomb. It was just a big one. And I felt like it made me look bad. I felt like everyone was judging me, even though everyone else was bombing, except for maybe a couple of people. It was humiliating, and it made me doubt myself in a very deep way. To hear all the bonus episodes on The Full Marin, subscribe by going to the link in the

episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Here's me playing my new guitar. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boom or lives, monkey in La Fonda, cat angels everywhere.