WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1477 - Tom Papa

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

Tom Papa’s last trip to the garage was mostly about his comedy past, reflecting on how he and Marc got to where they are in their chosen profession. This time, Tom and Marc are thinking mostly about their futures, how they’re navigating the comedy world at their ages and success levels while staring at a not-too-distant time when the stage light goes out for good. Just two comedians discussing meaning, maturity, mysticism and maintaining the funny. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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insurance don't let the i'm too small for this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just 19 per month visit zensurance today to get a free quote zensurance mind your business per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck Knicks? What's happening? happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it it's a holiday correct some of you are are not working what's happening is it it is a holiday well i hope your day is going as well as possible i find it difficult sometimes to not think that my day-to-day life on some level, because of the nature and reality of the world, is some exercise in denial.

But I don't know what the alternative to that. It's terrible what's going on in Israel. It's terrible what's going on in Ukraine. It's terrible. You know, there's a whole list of terribles. But, you know, when there's so many human lives lost, it's terrible. I can't, you know, there's a whole list of terribles. But, you know, when there's so many human lives lost, it's just fucking awful. And I feel completely powerless in the face of most of it.

I reached out to a couple of friends of mine who have family there to make sure they're okay and their family's okay. But outside of that, I don't know what to tell you. All I know is that if I take in the information and just go about my day, I feel like I should be doing more. I do not know how much more I can be doing in the face of almost anything other than talking about it, whether it be war or fascism or climate change. I tried to talk about it. I just, it's, it's difficult. But that said,

I had a pretty good day yesterday. I just made some choices about my day. And I, I'm not a guy that doesn't work well. I, I really work a lot. I always need to be doing something. Alongside of feeling that anything I do just to have a life is in some form denial, I think that anything I do that isn't somehow working or doing something proactive to fix or cook or write or think, anything that's not leading to something else. I think, what are you doing? So I have total inability to relax and just enjoy my fucking life, really. Even if it's a hike. If it's a hike, it means you're getting the exercise in, getting the dopamine up, getting your heart rate up. It's an effort to frame stuff just as, hey, it's okay, dude, to sit and watch a movie.

You don't have to think of it as research. It's okay. I talked to Tom Papa today. He was on the show back in 2018, episode 919. Good guy. Always liked seeing Tom. You know, we work together at the comedy store a lot. He has a new book out called We're All In This Together, So Make Some Room.

So I wanted to have him back on. And not just a book. I enjoy talking to this guy. Funny guy. Sweet guy. How's your hope holding up? Do you have hope? That's the other thing I started thinking about.

It's like, what's the difference between hope and denial? It's just a tonal difference. It's atonal. And if you do them both together, it's atonal. And that brings us to jazz. Because what I chose to do the other day after I worked out compulsively like a madman to the point where I was sore, I spent several hours engaging with jazz music on a few different levels. But before I talk about that, let me tell you where I'm going to be. I'm going to be in Bellingham, Washington at the Mount Baker Theater for one show on Saturday, October 14th as part of the Bellingham Exit Festival. I'm in Portland, Oregon.

A late show was added to my dates at Helium on Sunday, October 22nd. my dates at Helium on Sunday, October 22nd. I forgot to mention, I have a date at Largo that just got put up on the website. That's October 16th here in Los Angeles, California. I will be at, where is it? Where am I? The Boston, the old Boston Garden. I'm at the TD Garden for Comics Come Home on Saturday, November 4th. Then I'm at the Chemo Theater in Albuquerque, New Mexico for one show on November 11th. I believe that might be sold out. Denver, Colorado. I'll be at the Comedy Works South for four shows, November 17th and 18th. There's more L.A. dates coming.

I'm at Dynasty Typewriter, December 1st, 13th, 28th. I'm at the Elysian Theater on December 6th, 15th, and 22nd. Also, this is the last week for you to be eligible to win one of my signed tour posters. I'm giving away signed tour posters that are no longer available for purchase. To be able to win, you have to be signed up for WTF Plus by October 15th. So go to the link in the episode description or click on WTF plus over at WTF pod.com. There are 30 posters to give away and winners will be picked in a random

drawing. So sign up by October 15th to be in the drawing. All right. Is it jazz? Am I jazz? Yeah, that's, that's something I always think about,

but I'll tell you what, how, what unfolded in the last couple of days. So I was sitting at home and I'm like, is there a way to enjoy my day? Is there a way to do that that doesn't involve eating or masturbating? Is there a way I can just enjoy my day without adding just a small vibration of shame to it? adding just a small vibration of shame to it. So my buddy Dan, Gimme Gimme Dan over at Gimme Gimme Records, gave me this Pharoah Sanders box set for my birthday. It's a specific box set. It's the Pharoah album from 1977. It was a small release.

It's not a skronk album. It's not like... Not that. But I'd never heard it before. And I don't really have any way of contextualizing many of the jazz people that I listen to. You know, I know the difference between skronk, as my friend Dan calls it, and bebop and big band and hard bop. And, you know, I can, you know, I can get the variations. But I always associated Pharoah Sanders with a certain amount of free form.

But this one isn't, and it's beautiful. And I put it on and I read the story about it and I listened to both sides all the way through. And then I listened to a couple of live versions from the same era. There's a second vinyl in there of Harvest Time Live. And it was beautiful. It was meditational, you know, and I don't always know how to even talk about jazz, to be honest with you. But so then I just said, well, let's make it a jazz day. And then I watched the first two parts of the Wayne Shorter doc, and a lot of things were brought together for me. And I just don't know the history, and I should know it. It seems like information that's available. I didn't know about Wayne Shorter and about his childhood and about, you know, him moving through his childhood into Art Blakey's Jadis Messengers and then on into Miles's Quintet, which redefined Miles altogether.

And then on into Weather Report and all the tragedy he he encountered in his life and his compositional genius, all of that stuff, his Buddhism. all of that stuff his buddhism you know after all was said and done i don't know like if i can tell in certain situations that i'm not sure i can tell the difference between someone on the spectrum in a certain way and a devout buddhist in terms of their presence he was clearly a genius but how he weathered the tragedy he did without completely collapsing. He sort of attributes to Buddhism in the big picture and looking for the indestructible happiness or whatnot. But the nuances of the way he plays and how he's respected, and it just gave me this whole other understanding of his music. And then, you know, it enabled me to go back into that Pharaoh Sanders record

and kind of figure out, you know, no matter how many jazz docs i see yeah you know i i don't think i'd ever heard the thelonious monk quote that jazz when he was asked what it is he says it's music that white people can't steal and because of the time it was coming about that bebop and hard bop and the way pop music worked and just how much appropriation there was or outright theft. And that gave me another nuance and shorter tells a lot of Miles Davis stories, but it was, I spent four hours engaging with jazz music. I listened to one album once, got some new information, listened to it again in a different way, changed my brain a little bit. And it was, it was great. It was a day well spent. But there was part of me that

was sort of like, was it though? Was it well spent? I mean, you could have been doing other things. I watched Pope of Greenwich Village the other day. I don't know why. I hadn't seen it in a long time. And I wanted to try to figure out again, however many years later, whether or not Eric Roberts was good or just completely over the top and overacting. And I'm going to, uh, I'm going to, I'm going to, uh, err on the side of Eric Roberts was being Eric Roberts. Charlie, they took my thumb, Charlie. Um, but I enjoyed the movie. I enjoy a little Burt Young occasionally. I'm a Burt Young guy.

He's great in it. I don't know what this need to watch old movies is. I think that in the face of oncoming disaster, chaos, catastrophe, apocalypse, sometimes it's just nice to ground yourself in something that is familiar, but you don't quite remember. And when you watch it again, what it meant to you the first time works as a foundation. And then how you take it in now, it just sort of,

it kind of, it gets, it almost gets your entire being up to speed. You're like, this made an impact on me years ago. I don't quite remember why or how. And then you watch it or listen to it or read it again. And it kind of, it makes the jump or it doesn't. Either it arcs over all those years that you had sort of left it behind and reconnect some part of you to something younger. I don't know if I still don't call that nostalgia.

I call that a sort of figuring out whether the piece of art has grown with you and whether or not it still has something to say to you, something to inform. So look, Tom Papa is here. So let's get on with it. His book, new book, we're all in this together, so make some room, is available wherever you get books, and he's out on tour now. Go to tompapa.com for cities and tour dates.

The guy's a tight act, man. The guy is a craftsman. He's funny, and he knows what he's doing. And I'm going to talk to him right now. He knows what he's doing. And I'm going to talk to him right now. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Well, do you exercise? Do you work out? Yeah. But like, what?

Mostly cardio. Right. But I just hang from the bar. You'll hang from the bar? This company put a pull-up bar and some other stuff in my garage. So you have a full gym? Eh. I make shifts.

What company? Because you're such a powerful influencer? Yeah. They're like, maybe we can get this guy hanging from the bar. Right, exactly. This guy has a minimum following and even less muscle mass.

It'd be great just to see him struggle to get one in. That's what regular people want to see. That guy can't do it. I can't either. Let me get one of those bars. Exactly. And I really have been, yeah, want to see that guy can't do it i can't either let me get one of those bars exactly and i really have been uh yeah and i i was i was like i'm gonna by the end of the summer i'm gonna be able to do at least one pull-up no no they're hard man they're hard i mean like you do an overhand or

underhand i guess a chin-up is this one yeah that's the pull-up that's the hard one this one i could do a couple like in a gym on the road I could do a couple, like in a gym on the road. Oh, yeah? I could do a couple. In the gym on the road? Yeah. When I see it. You have more energy in the gym on the road because there's less at stake? Yeah. It's like just the existential loneliness of being in a hotel gym.

Feels you like a superhero. Wow, I'm the only man alive. On display for the lobby of the days in i've been trying to run more on the road and this has been a real conundrum i don't like uh it's hard to pack like a pair of running shoes on the road it's you got to really commit you gotta yeah you gotta decide you know it's like so hard how do you handle it? I usually wear the sneakers on the plane. Which kills me. Me too.

What's wrong with us? Because... What are we going to dress up on the plane for? I'm like, I wear my boots. I got to take them off. There's fucking metal in them. But I'm not... I will not wear sneakers.

Yeah, but you look good. You look better. And because... You know why? Because the sneakers is an indication of that army of lazy people that are just wearing... Especially middle-aged men, wearing those shoes that they're not working out. It's kind of like...

Those ones that you almost got for free? What are those? What was that brand? No brand. There is no brand. They're just soft... Sketchers. No, there was like a thing.

There was this whole movement around these shoes that have nothing to them. They're like slippers. What the fuck were they called? I feel like we did ads for them. I don't want to because I don't want to join them. I don't either. I get what you're saying.

So wearing my sneakers on the plane just kills me, but there's no room in the carry-on to put them. It's all about getting that thing in that goddamn carry-on. I know. I just bought a new one yesterday. And my wife's like, is it smaller? And I was like, it's the same brand, the same everything. I'm like i'm like no it's the same and i put it next to the old bag it's like a it's like a half inch on each side small they just keep pinning you in and making them small i mean

for for three days i mean you know you can get by like you know then it's like easy peasy right a week yeah that's when you're in trouble yeah for, with the one bag. You can do it, but you might be, you know. You ever put the sneakers in your shoulder bag? Yeah. That's sad. Yeah, God forbid you put them on and not be one of those guys, as opposed to the guy that's got sneakers jammed into his computer bag on the plane.

Exactly. You know what's so funny, too, is that I did wear the sneakers in the airport, and I'm usually boots, and I'm wearing the sneakers, and I'm connecting in Phoenix, like a mile walk, and I'm like, this is pretty comfortable. I know. This is why all those people are wearing these. It's like at the Salt Lake City Airport where it takes an hour to walk from your gate. And wear boots like a-

Clunking around. At least I look cool. But I don't know if I've met people. I don't know if I've ever talked about it specifically about this. But yeah, I mean, I will. And you see people online with your security who've got it figured out where you're taking off your dumb boots who might have metal in them so even if I'm TSA or first it doesn't matter yeah I got to take them off because there's metal in they're like you don't have to take any and you look at their comfortable shoes and they think they've got

one up on you that like they're educating you and you can't just say that yeah but you look like a putz the fuck you know what I mean look at you up. Yeah, yeah. I'm still like, you know, I'm going to get off the plane and I'm ready to go do things. What are you ready to do? Go to the hotel and, you know, put on your real clothes? Order Pizza Hut like they have a guy in the room across from you? Oh, it's the worst. But are you out all the time? I am.

I'm going hard. Yeah? I'm going really hard from now until. When did you start? Like, I don't know. It's never ending. I slow down a little bit in the summer, but it's every weekend now. What do you do?

You'll do any fucking place? Pretty much. No, for the first time in my career, I can go play nice theaters. This is the first theater tour? Really? For the last couple of years. What are we talking, like 1,100? Yeah.

That's like the average. Yeah. I have a huge one in New Jersey that's 2,000. Which one? NJ Pack. Oh, I don't know if they're in there. Oh, in Newark. Yeah.

It's a great spot. I think I did that once. They have the Victoria Theater, which is the smaller one. Where your Jersey guy, right? 600, yeah. Yeah. So I'm trying to, that'll be my biggest. But yeah, mostly around 1,000.

So I'm just, and my daughters are both gone now. I just dropped my other daughter off at the, pretty much. I'm sorry. Pretty much. At school, so we're empty. And I thought my wife was going to be done teaching, so she was going to come with me. So I just packed the, I'm like, there's no reason to be home. Let's go.

Yeah. And now my wife's teaching, so she'll be home alone in the empty house. Oh, is she sad about that? Yeah, she's sad about it. Yeah? Yeah. But not that you're gone, that the kids are gone probably. Yeah, that the kids are gone.

Yeah. Me, it's more of the same. But wait, so, okay. gone probably that the yeah that the kids are gone yeah me it's more of the same but wait so okay so you like you sell out the new jersey pack um i don't know if i'll sell it out we're close yeah but it's not till october end of october yeah i'm like where else i've been doing well uh this weekend i'm going to uh like tacoma and salem salem oregon And then I'm going to San Francisco and Salt Lake City. Where are you going to Salt Lake? The King's Theater. Like I just did the club there. Wise guys.

Yeah, yeah. Great. Because if I'm working out an hour, I'll go do the clubs. Yeah, for sure. And even in markets, like I'm going to St. Louis next week. And I think, like I kind of have a good sense of what I can pull. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And like I'll go do St. Louis because I'm not going to do a theater in St. Louis. St. Louis is a tough market. It is. So I've got five shows there. And, you know, totally a couple of the late shows aren't looking great. But it's a total of like 700 tickets. And I'm like, that's about what I would do. Yeah.

You know, at a theater, 7, 800 maybe. But there's the beauty of like if you are working out something new, a big thing, a big hour. I hate saying the hour, but your new act. Yeah. Five sets is better than one set. Well, that's why I do it. Yeah, it's better than one set. You know, but you do like, you do remember, you know, after a second show on a Saturday, you're like, oh, Chris.

Yeah, this is hard. That's what I wanted to say when I came up on the porch by the way. Your special was so good. Oh, thanks, man. It was so funny. Thank God. It was really, I mean, really, really. I watch a lot of them for my radio show,

and I love you and love your comedy and all that, but this special just was like laughing, like alone in my house, just like laughing out loud, which is hard. Even comedians you love, you're just like, yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah. Like a little chuckle. Sure. This was just like, ha ha. Oh, good.

Ha ha. That's good. I'm glad. It's so good. That's very nice of you to say. It really was. Well, you know, I do think that, you know, as an old man now, you know, I've relaxed a lot of the muscles that made people sort of go like, yeah, it was intense, man. You know, it was a good special. It was intense.

It got pretty heavy, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've been able to get funnier. Yeah, but without eliminating the subjects. No, no. You're still dealing with the same stuff. Sure, sure. But it's funnier.

Oh, thank you. I mean, you're always funny, but this was like, I don't know. I worked hard. You craft at it. Yeah, you're better at it. Yeah, yeah. Before you would kind of be like, okay, but now you're like, give me the same stuff, but it's got these laughs to it. And I think I'm a little lighter in certain ways and i

you know it was interesting with that was you know we did two shows and the first it was a town hall and the first show they were just too excited yeah they were you know everything was like it was oh it was too much yeah and you you know when you're doing two for the special you kind of get your footing on that first one but literally the audience was too was too good. And the second audience was hard. It was a real audience. Like, I had to work for it. And I'm like, we're going to use that one, right? Because, like, I had to go get them, you know?

And as much as people say, like, I sit down, I do this, or like, you know, I know. Like, I was up and moving. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, going after it. It's interesting, though. When I rewatched it, and just so it'd be fresh. And, uh,

there was, when you, you go to the, you go to the stool pretty quickly. Yeah. You kind of come out and you pace back and forth and you sat down and that shot was so great. Right.

And you sitting, I was just, I, I wanted you to sit for some reason. Yeah. Like I just, there was something like you look, you're good in that space.

Not as no one, not a lot of people do that. No. Yeah'm a i'm a good sitter but that was weird because because that was one of the jokes i mangled there's a couple of jokes that i i blew and all i only know that uh you know they're they're they're fine enough but there was a beat i missed and one other thing but because when you work when you really work a fucking hour you know you like it is sort of once you get down to it, you know it. And the trick is to be engaged with it, to not walk through it. I know.

But there was a couple moments in there that I riffed. I live a little more than that. Yeah. Are you working on one? Really good. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to shoot in the spring like end of the winter spring

when was your last one in there uh last last october uh-huh what was it called uh uh what a day okay what a day i don't know if i watch that one i've been watching your sets lately though yeah about the yeah i mean i can't remember but you've been funny lately thank you you're always funny I mean we've talked about it before there's a your pacing is

you always say whenever I hear you talking about me to somebody else you always go precise he's very precise Jack Benny

he does the Benny takes I'm always thinking to myself yeah my jokes are a little tight but I feel like you want me to be fuzzier. No, no, no, no. You know, I'm like, I'm learning from.

Shaggier. No, because like I'm learning from you. You know, like, because in the last special, I'm very deliberate. I'm not frenetic. You know, I'm not, you know, know there's not like that's what sort of left even my friend jonathan said recently to me he watched me he's like yeah you seem a lot more paced and delivering like but he didn't say it in a positive way and i'm like anyway you want manic crazy mark like that that's when i'm working shit out yeah no you're right like now you say it

it's like an economy of words in this one that made it more impactful and that's like that's something i learned from you or i learned from jeselnik or i just learned from you know even even nate you know who used to open for me that when i'm myself which i'll do sometimes i'm always myself but sometimes if the audience isn't great you know i'll pull the stool up to the lip of the stage i'm like what do you want you want real you want the lip of the stage. I'm like, what do you want? You want real? You want the real thing? All right. And people like it, but it's hard to manufacture that, and it's hard to enjoy.

Apacing yourself, it's a great craft. Yeah. When I look back at the specials, I just think I have become more deliberate because I'm doing much more stand-up than I think I have since I was a kid. Oh, interesting. Because what am I going to do? I go out like three, four nights a week to the store.

And then you get a chunk and it's new and it's frenetic. And then you just start kind of honing it and figuring out the beats and then leaving the space that you need. honing it yeah and figuring out the beats and then you know leaving the space that you need but i i think it's just this evolution for me of like i'm still enjoying evolving whatever my craft is yeah like i'm not set yeah in any way yeah yeah yeah and you could and you should take pride in that you're achieving it like it's there is there is this uh like i said like the subjects i think like in the first like i think in the first 15 minutes oh yeah you've talked about all of it all of it the end of the world the end of the world fascism pandemic yeah yeah fascism i got that all out of the way i felt it was my social responsibility i was very aware of that like i'm gonna throw all this shit up front it's gonna be a lot but then we're going right into grief you know like a little bit of a transition yeah yeah it was it was good it was

really good and uh and the stuff about your uh your mother's boyfriend just like him not having a point to his stories like that's like a tom pop a bit i really i did kind of love it it was like closer to like family stuff that I've seen you do. It was a different time. It was a different time. That's it? Yeah, yeah. You couldn't add to it?

No arc, no nothing? It was a different time. Yeah, yeah. That poor guy. Everyone takes a hit. Are your folks still around? They are, yeah. They're like 76.

Wow. Yeah. Really? What hell are you? 42. Wow, like 76. Wow. Yeah. Really? What hell are you? 42. Wow, that's not true. No. 54.

I'm going to be 60 this month. Wow. And both of my parents are still alive. No. 80, 84. Good genes. I don't know. I mean, my dad's losing his mind.

Yeah. So like, sure, the physical existence part, those good genes. He sounds nicer now, though. He is nicer. He sounds like more cuddly. Yeah, it's like pushing buttons on a memory machine where you're like, dad, do you remember when we lived in New Jersey?

He's like, yeah. What do you remember? Like, then you hit little buttons and you can watch it kind of light up. Yeah. But then it sort of drifts into sort of like, I don't know. Looking at the water, I love that't know. Looking at the water.

I love that one too. Looking at the water, the water guy. There's a lot of stuff in there. It's so weird how quickly it goes away. I know. Isn't that terrifying? Talking about Alzheimer's.

No, it's like on purpose. I know, you're discarding it. But it's so stupid, I think. I don't know if we can handle it. I don't know if we can keep it all in.

But I mean, like, I mean, I've talked about this with other people. I mean, there are jokes that I did that I know, like, I'm still a discoverable person. Yeah. You and I are both. It's not like we're selling out arenas. Yeah. So, like, you know, there are people that have not seen the stuff we did four years ago. Which was really good.

Right. I know. And there's part of me that's like, why not just do a Greatest a greatest hits and then you realize some guys used to do that you know every i i don't i think about it when uh when i do corporate gigs oh why not yeah uh what are they expecting uh they're expecting a clean funny show yeah that's it they're you know half of them don't even half of them aren't even comedy fans and they're not even paying attention they're just being brought in there because it's their night, you know? And, uh, and I'll, if I'm working on something like new, the new act that I'm in, it's not going to be as tight or.

Yeah. It's usually a little, uh. You're on a workshop at the corporate. Yeah. And it's a little less palatable. There's like, you know, I haven't. So I'll go back to the other, the last two. Oh yeah.

And, but it's, I got to, so I'll go back to the, the last two. Oh yeah. And, but it's, I got to look it up. Oh, right. Yeah. Some guy keeps bothering me at the comedy store. These two old guys that go there like every fucking night.

Yeah. And I guess it's good. I, I guess that's how they're deciding to, uh, spend their time. Yeah. Whatever.

You know, this guy keeps telling me, it's like, you know, do the, the, the gun thing, the bat thing.

Why don't you do that? And that guy seen it like a hundred times. And I'm like, I don't even remember how it starts. I know. Do you remember the opening? Can you put the needle in the groove for me? Because I don't know what the fuck. I know.

I literally have to look it up or listen to it off Spotify. But I don't think that's Alzheimer's. I just think it's, you know, we have trained ourselves for whatever reason to think that like once it's out there, it's done. Which is so stupid. I guess. I mean, like, there was stuff left over from my last taping, and I'm kind of pulling it out a little bit now. You know, I mean, why not? But there's other stuff happening.

You know, I guess it's. But when you hate, when I do go do, like, a corporate thing, and I'll take out a joke that mark it's 20 years old like a 20 year old joke yeah and it kills in a way that nothing yeah currently kills and there's but there's something to that like those jokes mature they they age but is it more simple is it like it's stylistically yeah it's yeah it Yeah, it's more palatable. But there's also something to those jokes, like that they do get better. In four years, it's a better joke than in some of them. Some of them die on the vine.

But the ones that are good, they do get, they mature. I wonder if that's true. It is true. Really? Yes. Yes. Before we started cranking out specials and stuff. Yeah.

Stuff would, you know, sit in your act a lot longer. Sure. I mean, you know, Robert Klein couldn't stop his foot for 40 years. Yeah. Like, I remember, it's like this weird thing where they, like, there was some special of his, you know, an HBO special, and they literally showed a montage of all his HBO specials of him doing that bit. Oh, no, really? And I'm like, are we going to see it again now? There is a point where I remember seeing Cosby at Carnegie Hall, and people were asking for him to do the dentist bit.

Yeah. And, yeah, it was, it had spoiled. It had? Yeah. Yeah, people really wanted to see it and he went into it, but. Didn't care. Huh? He didn't care.

That it wasn't great? I don't know. Maybe he didn't, because, like, that, I mean, that's the trick of it, because I find that even when I'm working on stuff now, that, like, once I get something up and going, you know, I know I got to remember it. But, you know, if you've got an hour and you're doing short sets, you can just, you know, get tired of the new bits because you've got them in place. Right. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And it's sort of like, what am I using these short sets for? I know I can get laughs. I know. So, like, what are we going to do here? The short sets are? I know I can get laughed. I know. So, like, what are we going to do here? The short sets are so valuable, though. Like, I have this...

I have this 15, 20 minute wobbly part right now in my act. Which one? I probably saw it. It's about therapy. It's about people going to therapy

trying to figure out, like, there's no end to going to therapy that you're going to go forever. Oh. And we're not, we don't break

and they get to be fixed. Right. It's this whole chunk. And it's kind of like all over the place. I wasn't really sure what I was saying. Yeah. But man, go to the cellar for three nights, come back, go to the store for two nights, and just do that.

Yeah. Just do that part that really isn't the beginning of a set. It's really kind of a clunky. Just work it. And God, it gets so much better. And then you plug it back into the thing. I haven't been it and god it gets so much better and then you plug it back into the thing i haven't been in the cellar in so long i don't know why i turned on it oh you did a little bit yeah yeah i keep talking what do you do in new york i barely go i barely

work out when i go to new york like the last time i went to new york i hadn't done stand-up at a club in new york in years really because i i just like to go to new york if i have something to do we talked about this in the lounge yeah i saw you in the lounge that morning yeah that's right right oh because i ran into you when i was just going for no reason yeah you were just going for fun that's right at the american lounge yeah yeah it was a is a revelation to me yeah because i know we could do that yeah i mean like i mean like what am i doing do you know what i mean like i do not do sets i ended up going to the stand uh which I had never done, that stand. The last time I went to the stand, it was off of 3rd Avenue somewhere, right?

Right. The original one where- I've never been. Oh. It was okay. It was a little echoey. It was fine. Yeah.

But I have some- I've got it in my head that the cellar has become sort of a mill for... Too many shows? Well, there's too many shows, and there's this, you know, and I don't know, you know. Yeah, I just think it was better just knowing that, you know, no one was next door. That the band was next door. Oh, that he wasn't in charge of the place?

Well, just say, like, why is the band, I can't hear myself talking because they're playing a Beatles song. Oh, upstairs. Yeah. Well, that's only on Mondays. Okay. It's still great. It's still, you still walk in, you know, those rooms, they don't change.

They just, it's baked in. They're not easy rooms. No, not at all. That's what's great about it. The original room at the comedy store or or the original room at the comedy store is like i don't i have no fear of it no fear but it's not easy no but it's easy for me now and like there i think that some some part of it has to do with and i've used to talk about the story like this too you know like when i go back to new york and

i go into the cellar there's some part of me that story like this too, when I go back to New York and I go into the cellar, there's some part of me that's like, this is where the abuse happened. Right. It's in your head. Yeah, for sure. Who's the abuser, though? The audience?

Who's the abuser? It's just the whole place. It's not the audience. You're on stage and you've got to watch Manny would run in and just like laughing and pacing around back and forth. I'm like, oh, fuck. You see like Esty's head in the hallway like, now here we go. And then I tell him.

They let you early. And I tell him we'd walk in and I'm like, get out. I don't need that. I'm just trying to get through this without sweating. Jesus, fuck. It's so funny. But that's what I love. That's why both those rooms they're uh

comfortably uncomfortable yeah i mean they theoretically they should be great they show them the theoretically the original cellar room should be easy structurally it really should yeah but there is there's something to well back in the day before it became like this mass, you know, it was really a strange and eclectic audience. Like more than anywhere else. There'd be like, you know, a table of Hasidic Jews. Then there'd be a table of, you know, German tourists. It was like, and then there'd be some kids. And you didn't know who the fuck was.

Yeah. It was always kind of weird. They didn't know why they were there. You didn't know why they were there. Kind of. Right. You know, and fuck was. Yeah. It was always kind of weird. They didn't know why they were there. You didn't know why they were there. Kind of. Right. You know, and just the. Now it's popular.

Now it's. Yeah. People go expecting to see people drop in. It's like the store, you know. Yeah. But they're just something. Like I was talking to Soder about it, who I'd never really talked to or met. I recently had him on.

I remember I was in New York and I just went by the cellar, and I did a set in the regular room, and then they're like, you want to go do the underground? I'm like, I've never done the underground. You walk in, it looks like a larger cellar. Yeah. But Soder went on and killed, and I went on, and it was just that old feeling of the cellar came back.

I start my opening joke, it's like, meh. And then I'm like, oh, I remember this. I remember every part of this. That sort of like the vigilance and the sort of like, you know, guardedness you have to have in New York. You can't fuck around. Vulnerability is not necessarily welcome. You know, and then like I felt, I told Soda this. I'm like, you know, when you bomb as a grown comic, you know, either you acknowledge it or you just sort of, you know, feel that weird sweat on your neck.

Where, you know, like you're like, I know they don't see it, but I know what that means. How'd you play it? I just wrote it out. Like there's no, like for some reason that room, it's just, you're not going to turn them, really. One of my last bombs was upstairs in the in-between room, that little lounge room. I don't even know what that is. If you go, before you go down the stairs. Oh, into the underground?

Yeah, like, off to the side, there's a little room in there where Colin works out his stuff, like, every week. Yeah. And he asked me to open for him because his cousin wasn't week. Yeah. And he asked me to open for him because his cousin wasn't around. Yeah. And I went in there and just bombed. Yeah.

Bombed. Did you get the sweat thing? Yeah. Oh my God. It was like that vulnerable, like, oh. You're right. But you do that all inside now

where it's just sort of like, oh my God. It's like some sort of weird wake up call. Yeah, it's so funny. And then you like, but for me when that happens, it's like some sort of weird wake-up call. Yeah, it's so funny. And then, like, but for me, when that happens, it's like I'm, like, I'm just starting out. I know. Isn't that crazy?

I mean, I know, like, my body will carry me through it. And, like, it happens in the main room at the store sometimes where you're like, all right, well, this is the level. Yeah. That we're working with. We're not getting out of this. Yeah, and it's all right. Yeah, and I don't feel like pushing and trying to defeat it. Yeah, what am I going to do? Yeah, I'd rather just tell them, it's like, well, you're working with. We're not getting out of this. Yeah, and it's all right. And I don't feel like pushing and trying to defeat it. Yeah, what am I going to do?

Yeah, I'd rather just tell them, and it's like, well, you're not great. Yeah, I just need to say these words. Well, I mean, I will definitely take them to task. Yeah. Usually. Yeah. But also, I'm not one of these people,

like, you know, it takes a long time to realize that, like, you know, whatever anybody thinks, whoever goes before you can fuck it up for you for at least half your set. Yeah. It's not like, you know, like, no problem. Yeah, we'll just go 15 each. No problem. You know, sometimes you're like, oh, Christ. I got to take a hit for five minutes.

I thought we were all working on new stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Why'd you just open with your closer? Well, that's why I don't like the main room as much in the store because it's, it, it looks like a real performance space. It's like a Vegas showroom or something. So comedians get there and they feel like they've got to throw fastballs. Sure.

It's that it's almost like the room is dictating no you should be yeah putting on a show yeah and it's like i just want to work on this stuff so i've started asking just put me in the or i go i go for both you know sometimes you can get loose in the main room especially if it's like yeah not totally packed or like and also like you know i start to realize like and it I start to realize, it's okay if not everyone's laughing. A hundred percent. That's the thing. There's not that switch like, oh shit, I'm in trouble. I've got to really try to kill.

It's not about right now. Yeah, you just got to stay in the saddle and not ruin it for the people that like you. Well, yeah. I mean, that's the great part about it, too, is you come off of a mediocre thing in the main room because you stuck to your guns. Yeah. And you're trying your stuff out, and it gets to whatever, and whoever was just doing their special right before you. And then you come off, and all the kids that are parking cars and working the door are like, yeah. Right?

Yeah. Well, you who were, that's who I was playing the door. Great set. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, you were right. That's who I was playing for. Yeah, right. The comics that see the same shit every fucking night. Exactly. But what you were talking about before about old jokes is interesting because there's these old guys, you know,

when you watch Argus Hamilton or Tom Dreesen, they kill. And I'm really starting to realize that there is a language of comedy that predates us that I think a lot of the audience kind of grew up with. There's a rhythm to it. Oh, yeah. And like, you know, even if the jokes are not great, you know, they're good enough. But like Driesen will get up there and like he's got a very kind of singular cadence. It's old school, but it just kills because that is, that's the language of television comedy from, you know, the seventies, six seventies, 80, you know, but the, sometimes those guys are doing it in front of a room full of 18 year olds.

I know. And it's killing. I know. It's so it's, it's so it makes me happy. But they didn't grow up with it. You know what I mean? No, I know. I think there's something. I think that's true.

I think there's something to the pacing of that thing. And also just to the professionalism. I mean, what the fuck are these 18-year-olds watching? Like, let's talk like old men. I mean, I don't understand. I can't even get involved with TikTok comedy enough to hate it. Like, I can't do it. You were so funny.

We were at the back of the comedy store. I finished my set, and I come walking off. I'm trying to get out of there, and you're sitting in the back row. Yeah. So I sat down next to you for a second and you just turned to me and you go, tick tock. We got to do that now. I don't know.

Like, you know, I was like, yeah, I think so. I know, but there is a, there is a, well, two things.

I think the Dreesen and Argus, there's a pacing, and here comes the, it works. It's just, there's something baked into that. People perfected that, and there's a good, and it can't be terrible jokes, but it still works. I think that's the thing. It's like you and I do a different style. And like when I got, when I see guys that go kaboom, kaboom, kaboom, kaboom, joke to joke, there's always part of me that's sort of like, why, why, I can't, why don't I do that?

And it's like, cause I'm not going to sit down and write those jokes. Right. There is always that thing of you see somebody and you're just like, why don't I do that? Well, cause I'm not bad. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not like like you have to write all those jokes some of those like jokes like that uh-huh for me when they happen i'm like oh that's one of those jokes yeah i don't know how that happened yeah i didn't write it down but it's it's one of them you know so so i have a few of those but it's not i don't do an

hour of that drive me crazy i don't even know but then the uh the other thing to the tiktok thing it's funny watching my kids they're uh 21 and 18 and tiktok and social media has been around enough for that to have trended and trended out yeah like my kids will mock comedy not stand-up but comedy clips and stuff on the on tiktok as they'll be like you know oh that's 2010 yeah that's like like they're the sense of the the comedy language yeah within that is the same thing yeah but for their generate like they they've seen it they know it's hack now right and they're like oh they're, that's a hacky attempted joke. Huh.

Yeah. That's not your influence? No. This is them. I don't even know what they're up to. They're just on it, watching it, digesting it. Yeah. And then things, popular kids on TikTok are now hacky.

Yeah. They're now like they've trended out. Yeah. It's a new language. It's competitive. Yeah. With YouTube too. Like I don't, like I i and a lot of times i

don't know who they are i don't know who that guy matt what's his name is what's his name i don't even know who you're talking about he's a big guy matt right oh matt right yeah yeah yeah and i you know i i watched five minutes of him doing sort of rapid fire crowd work uh-huh and i'm like all right i get it yeah you know and i i don't but it's like i it's it just comes back to this thing that that used to annoy me but there's nothing that can be done about it is that when you and i got into it there was no there wasn't even bringer shows except at stand-up new york and we thought it was weird you know it's like you go you do the open mics you figure it out you get the 10 minute spot you know you it was weird. You know, it's like you go, you do the open mics, you figure it out, you get the 10 minute

spot. You know, you, it was totally comedy club dependent and we had a goal in mind, which was to be a great comic. Yeah. And now it just seems like, and this has been going on for a long time since alt comedy and since comic produced shows where it's like, well, can any fuck just do this? Yeah. You know, like without charisma or talent necessarily.

And like, look, I've seen guys, you know, come up in our generation that were definitely not funny. Yeah. And then, you know, figured out just by locking into who they were and it worked out, but it just seems like there's such a premium put on, you know, these small clips and I don't, and crowd work. Yeah. I mean, I can do crowd work, but it's like.

I know. Oh, my God. Like, why spend a half hour doing it? I know. Just so you can get your things to put, then post up. But, you know, they did it. And. I guess about selling tickets.

And they go sell big places because it caught, it caught. Yeah. I don't know. There's always that, there's always that mystifying. I'm not in the same business. Right? I'm just not. Nothing I can do about it.

Oh, yeah. I was on a plane once next to Jeff Tweedy. Oh, yeah. And it was after the, it was during the, it was the morning after the Grammys. Yeah. And it was the same, and I never him before, and we were just chatting. And he was there, I think it was Mavis Staples or something. Yeah.

And we were talking, it was like Katy Perry was big that year and a couple other people. And you could tell he was just early morning just kind of working through it in his head. And he said exactly what you just said. He goes, I don't think we're in the same business. And he really it he's like i've got a guitar i've got a lot of songs i'm doing my thing but it is not what they're doing no it's that's absolutely true yeah and i think that's you know we always get uh our feathers ruffle when it comes into our orbit but there's always been those acts

that have you know flourished and it's like oh but that's on my stage that's in what that's kind of what i do but it's not what you do yeah but i but i don't know like you know i i sometimes wonder why like i've got a good uh a good audience you know and and i you know and it's it's fine but there is some part of me that thinks like i should have a few more people. Yeah, I'm not even looking to play an arena. Yeah, I don't. And I don't even like playing rooms that are over 2,000.

Uh-huh. Because you lose something. It becomes this other thing. Yeah. And I feel like the nature of my soul that I'm exposing can't make it all the way back no into a 2 000 seat no you know because it's a different type of show yeah 100 but that is really the sweet spot and and how how insane by the way what that we're complaining about that yeah i mean what a great yeah career to go around the country packing out places a thousand two thousand seats of people that want to see you.

And then being like, but you know, these guys are doing six. And that guy's doing an arena. But there's just no way. Because like, honestly, Tom, like I am not really like other people. Really? And that, you know, and I'm speaking about my life and it's sometimes it's fairly specific yeah and it's not like there's not gonna be a you know a an arena full of guys going that's right that's my guy yeah yeah yeah sure part of the beer sales yeah yeah yeah it's just not i don't

know can i tell you a lynn shelton story yeah uh i don't think's just not, I don't know. Can I tell you a Lynn Shelton story? Yeah. I don't think I've ever told, I don't think I told you this. I was trying, I was,

this was like two or three specials ago and I was trying to figure out what to do. Yeah, I remember. Did I tell you this?

No, but I remember her talking about it. She almost directed your special or something? Soderbergh, Steven Soderbergh was thinking about doing it, and he was like, I can't do it.

You know who I really love is Lynn Shelton. Yeah. And I was going to perform in the Pacific Northwest where she was. Yeah. And so he kind of said, he connected us together, and she came out to a he connected us together. Yeah. And she came out to a club to see me. Yeah.

With the hopes of maybe she'll direct my thing. And I was in this horrible club. Yeah. A horrible club. I don't even know which spot it was. It wasn't Lafts. Was it out in Laughlin or somewhere? Was it Dave?

It was like Portland-ish, Seattle-ish. Okay, okay. One of those. Yeah. And it was a horrible place, like connected to this mall. I remember having to go through this tube to get there, and it was just horrible. And I was so sick. I had this horrible, I had no voice.

You know when the post-strip and you can't talk anymore? Yeah, yeah. horrible i had no voice you know when the post strip and you can't talk anymore yeah and i'm out of my mind and i'm and the the setup they're playing this horrible music to begin with and i mean it's everything that is the opposite of lynn shelton's sensibility oh like a like a real artist like this is this is this is like when rob zombie came to see me in the beginning of my career and he came to the ice house and was like how many fucking birthdays you have to go through he was like what are you doing with your career like get out of here you know it was like that kind of thing so anyway i i went up and i struggled through a set and i was all nasally

shitty and the environment was terrible and i I walked Lynn to her car parking garage because I was literally concerned. I wouldn't let any woman in my orbit like just walk through this parking garage. It was just kind of sketchy. And I walked her out. I'm like, thank you, Lynn. We'll talk later. And she was like, I delightfully passed on directing my special. And I felt so bad because it was like,

she was such a cool kid. Yeah. And I brought her to like a horrible environment and I was not good that night. And it was just like, it was terrible. But it was a near miss. And then when I saw her with you at the comedy store one night,

and she was like, oh, right. Good, she didn't remember it specifically as a horrible thing. Yeah, she was so sweet. It was so nice. Well, look, man, I mean, there's liabilities to being a cool kid, too. Like, when I started being with her, she was like, yeah, I don't like Led Zeppelin. I'm like, what? How's that?

Like, I don't even understand what you just said. And I'm like, have you ever listened to it? And she's like, well, it was around when I was in high school and stuff, but I was just not, that wasn't my thing. I'm like, let me give you some Led Zeppelin. So within six months of being with me, she's like, this Led Zeppelin is good. Oh, really, you swayed her? Of course. Of course.

I mean, it's like it speaks for itself. Yeah. But, you know, she came up in the time where, you know, there were two camps. Right. She's like, was your age more? Yeah. I'm a few years younger. Yeah.

So when I'm in high school, you know, new wave or punk, you know, was just sort of just coming in. So, you know, at that time it was either disco or rock. Right. That had been around since the late sixties and seventies. Right. So that's what I grew up with, but some people avoided that because, you know, they had the cure and they had, you know, yeah, that kind of stuff or, you know, whatever was going on that happened in college. But I was, you know, radicalized by, you know, seventies rock and it sticks., 70s rock. Yeah. And it sticks. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. But she was great. Yeah, Lynn was great. I just, I don't, you know, I can't, you know, now that it's a few years, you know, back, you know, it's just, it's also weird and unfathomable, you know, that it just happens, but then it just, you know, it just happens, you know?

And that between that and COVID, it just happens, but then it just happens. So strange. Between that and COVID, it's like I have no sense of time. It's fucked up my sense of time. Oh, it fucked up everyone's sense of time, but to have gone through that during that time. Yeah, I don't know. Jesus.

All I tried to do was keep my shit together. The loss of it is, I think about it all the time. But it just flies by, man, in general. It's weird because I'm going to be 60, and I've always been the kind of person who says, life isn't flying by because that's how I felt. But now I'm approaching 60. I'm like, this is here now? Yeah.

It's here. This is here now. Yeah. And then you start going like, what happened? Yeah. But nothing changed, but it just becomes more. And you think about how quick the last 15 went, and then you add it to where the next 15 from here goes.

Yeah. It's like, oh, no. I know. I know. And if you're going to be, you know, rational about it, you're like, cause like my girlfriend now is younger than me.

And I'm like, you know, in a few years, I'm going to be like old and you're, you know, and you can, you know, I'm doing a bit on stage where you can judge,

you know, older men dating younger women, however you want. But ultimately it's going to get to a point where I'm going to be, have to go like, you know, older men dating younger women, however you want. But ultimately it's going to get to a point where I'm going to have to go like, you know, you can go. I understand. We knew this was going to happen, but like, it seems like you got a little juice left. When she sees you trying to read your pill bottle and you can't, how much younger?

She's 34. Oh man. It's young, but it's not. Oh, man. That's young. But it's not. That's a great age. Yeah, and she doesn't want to have kids. And, you know, she's been there for me in a fairly difficult time. And, you know, it's evolved into something very sweet. But I know I said something on stage last night that I think it got a good laugh and I was just riffing, you know.

But I always sort of half apologize for dating younger women, you know, because I'm like I said last night, I said, I'm it got a good laugh and I was just riffing, you know. But I always sort of half apologize for dating younger women, you know. Because I'm like, I said last night, I said, I'm not looking for it. I've dated women of different ages. I've dated age appropriate. I've dated almost age appropriate. And I've dated younger.

It's just random at this point. Yeah. Do you, when you talked in your act about, I think you used the word point. Yeah. Well, it's the life I live, you know. When you talked in your act about, I think you used the word mystical. Yeah. When someone passes, you can't help but... Go mystical. Go mystical.

Yeah. Is there a part of you with that or with your age, is there any part that's more religious? No. You don't lean into that part at all no i i don't because it's still sort of practical i'm doing a pretty big bit now about you know passing out at the top of the hill that i hike uh-huh and you know and also it's kind of tied in with you know trying to listen to patella swift and then hearing a song on this record that you know made me you know activated my grief,

but kind of carried it in that sweet way that music can and playing it on a loop and stuff. But there is this, you know, when Lynn died so quickly, you know, the loss is significant because she was a very charismatic person. And anybody's loss is significant. And it's devastating because there's, you know, it's a real absence. It's the goodbye. And you kind of feel that. Yeah. And it happens devastating because there's, you know, it's a real absence.

It's the goodbye. And you kind of feel that. Yeah. And it happens abruptly and it's, you know, and it's terrible. And it is so not unusual

other than tragedy. You know, you don't want to lose someone tragically. But like, when I passed out, I had this moment where like,

you know, when you pass out, I don't know if you've ever passed out. No. No. It's like, I kind of felt it coming. It happens like, cause I stretch and like, it was like a head rushing, but I went, yeah,

but I went down and like, I wouldn't have known it if I hadn't come to. Do you know what I mean? Like it's just, it's just nothing. Right. Like there was nothing. And, and, you know, and when I came to, I was like, oh my God, no idea. So I'm sort of like, well well if that's what it's like okay if it's just nothing

it kind of gave me some peace around her interesting I want to project the souls and everything else I still am sort of half mystical I found a giant feather right in front of this door here one day. It was like a crow's feather.

Yeah, but no, but then like, you know, I'm not beyond like, I got to look up what the significance of a feather is. But you take a quiet note of it. No, I did do it. I looked it up. Oh, you did look it up. Of course. You know, and it's like, it's just, that's the way the internet works. There's no sourcing of it.

It's like Native Americans. I'm like, oh, oh yeah that's good yeah and it means that someone's still looking over you i'm like oh that works good i'll keep the feather i'll keep it so if that's any closer to god yeah yeah yeah why are you closer to god as you get older i don't think i'm i don't know i've always been kind of mystical mystical that's different than yeah but i was i was raised don't, I've always been kind of mystical. Mystical, that's different than. Yeah, but I was raised Catholic and I've always kind of had this thing of being somewhat aware or trying to be in tune with something beyond. And it's weird, like at different stages I'll pray more or meditate more. You know what I mean?

Like there's always that thing. But I do feel like as I'm getting older, there is, and we're all going by the same brochure. Yeah. We all, like, this is very common. Yeah. That people kind of like start looking back at. When the lights start going out. Yeah. Yeah. And people, yeah. And they start to. this is very common. Yeah. There are people kind of like start looking at the lights start going out. Yeah.

Yeah. People. Yeah. And they start dimming. Yeah. And they're like, Hmm, well,

what else? What did it all mean? Where are we going? And all that kind of thing. not any, like I've said, I go, I,

there was a mystical, I always kind of had that sense. Yeah. Uh, and so it hasn't become like more intense right i don't know if i have myself reading more i just went through all of joseph campbell's interviews oh wow right so you get you get the whole spectrum of mythology yeah which is so great but what did that tell you uh that told me that that told me that i'm right that I'm sensing that there's something beyond, that there's another plane of something happening here all the time.

That humans are trying to interpret this feeling, and they've m, which is humans have always had this need to feel connected. Not that they're just close to breaking the code, but they need to construct something bigger than themselves to find meaning. But that need, I think, is generated by this weird feeling that we have. Right, that we're going to die. Maybe. So you're saying that the weird feeling is like God's presence and he's given us the puzzle, or she or it. Yeah, it.

Not that they've given it. I don't even know if there's a they or that they've given. Okay, but yeah, but sort of the weird need, it's like, how is it so fucking, you know, fragmented and nebulous that every goddamn culture since the beginning of humans has taken a crack at it, but there's still no- They can't do it. Revelation other than whatever they construct. It might be just we're hearing a hum, everyone's like what is that it's got to be

something bigger and it may be there is something maybe it maybe lights out when you pass out at the top of the hill and that the hum is only present here now when your eyes are open right but but the lights out thing is not terrible no it you know it's just like you know i think it's it's it's relative to our ego uh dying that, you know, that it's like, you can't just be nothing. Sure it can. You just ate a hamburger. You know, like,

you think that cow had a, you know, some other destiny? You know what I mean? Like, I just don't like, you know, this sort of separation we make, you know, from us and every other living organism on the goddamn planet that, like, we got to have a special place, right?

There's got to be a place where. Where we go. Yeah. Who the fuck knows where the dogs are going? But there's got to be a place for us. Yeah. I don't, like, I don't know if I'm comfortable with it because, like, now that, like, I'm at this age and, you know, I don't have any major health problems.

But, like, when I go to bed at night, I'm like, I don't know. Is this it? This could be. Yeah, whenever you hear stories now, it's like, how old was that guy? Always. 52? Just dropped dead. Oh, all right.

Had he been to the doctor? Yeah, he went all the time. Was he in good shape? Yeah, he was in great shape. Just dropped dead. Fuck. On his Peloton? Yeah.

I mean, it's, I don't know. I'm going to the doctor tomorrow. Are you? Yeah. Just for the regular? Yeah, for the regular thing. Well, I've been vegan for like seven months. You have?

I have. And because I wanted to see if I could, you know, I didn't have high cholesterol, but I just want to see if it made a difference. And it did. It did? And I'm wondering if it stuck. How much weight did you lose? I don't know.

I've been working out and stuff. I don't know that I lost a lot of weight. Are you supposed to lose weight? Yeah, I think so. When did you lose? I don't know. I've been working out and stuff. I don't know that I lost a lot of weight. Are you supposed to lose weight? Yeah, I think so when you're vegan. I don't know. Some people gain weight because they just sort of like they don't do it right and they just eat bread. I don't see you going just eating cookies. No, no.

I try to balance it out. But I wouldn't say I'm comfortable with death yet. I wouldn't say I'm comfortable with death yet. Because for me, though, it's just sort of like, who's going to get the cats? And someone's going to have to clean up. Because that's one thing I learned after Lynn passed away, that especially during COVID, it was everything I assumed that what happens is in the midst of all this tragedy and extreme grief and pain. And whatever anyone's experiencing who had a relationship with her of any kind,

it really is like, what are we going to do with this stuff? And that's rough, man. Because she had a lot of the same kind of stuff I had. She had boxes of like, if you're a keeper of things, which I'm not even sure there's a point to it, but I got boxes upstairs here,

you know, with stuff I wrote in high school, with things like art stuff and like all this stuff and I don't have any grand idea that like,

well, maybe it'll be bequeathed to a college library. But some people have offered to archive it, but still my insecurity it doesn't enable me to be like, yeah, you better get this stuff together because like, look, they opened a Bob Dylan center and you know, who knows? So, but ultimately it's like, you know, you call in family members and you call in people to, to sort of determine what that means. And, and really a lot of the stuff we keep means something to us. It represents something of our past, something of our evolution. Maybe we think it deserves more attention than it once got.

But ultimately, it is part of us. And once that goes, unless you're a grand person of letters or something, it's a box that a family member is going to go through and go like, I don't know what this is. Yeah. What are we going to do with that? I don't have any room for this. It's funny because it all gets whittled down to, well, I'll keep this bookmark. Right.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. I love this cup. I'll keep that card from him, that one cup from him. Yeah. And I'll keep that thing. That's enough. Yeah, and that's enough.

My sister has like three items from my grandmother. Yeah. And it is enough. Yeah, I have my grandmother's melon baller. Right. Yeah. And that is enough. Yeah. I have my grandmother's melon baller. Right. Yeah. And that's good. Sure.

Yeah. But I don't think, I don't, it's like, I don't know how much, you know, I guess I carry a lot of that stuff still in my memory. And,

you know, and certainly when, you know, we didn't get to have what we, I thought we were supposed to and destined to have, but I have, I have stuff for hers and, and I,

and I don't even know what to do with it. i've been struggling with some of that like you know because like ultimately like you know she had people that she you had long relationships with and ours wasn't that long and i don't know but i think at this point a few years later it's weird if i just sort of you know kind of reach out to the few friends of hers that I, you know, was in contact with after she passed. I said, like, do you want this book? You know, but. You should just send it. I should just send it, yeah.

That would be, that's a good, that's a nice. Right after I gave her mom a jacket and, you know, I was. Yeah. Kind of, because all the stuff was here and no one was coming down because it was COVID. So all the stuff that she thought was important was here. Right. It was either in my house or in the house she had rented. Yeah.

And it was like, it's gnarly stuff. Yeah. But getting back to that dying thing is like, look, man, you know, Saget's death affected me profoundly. And more so, well, obviously with Lynn, but Lynn sort of primed the pump for the reality of how fleeting this thing is, right? But like when Saget dropped dead, I'm like, that guy? What the fuck happened? And then like no one knows what happened. And the thing that got me the most was that, because he was one of us and he was a comic,

he was on the road. Omnipresent. Yeah. But just like, you know, a sweet guy. And yeah, I just, it was very shocking to me. Especially because he died on the road. Yeah. In a goddamn hotel.

I know. And, but a couple of things happened because of him dying is that, you know, I went to the funeral and it was over here at Mount Sinai, which, you know, I drive by it all the time. Yeah. And, you know, for the first few weeks and to this day, like, I was like, you know, he was at home last week and now he's in a box up on that hill. Yeah. And I drive by it every fucking day. Yeah. And I can't get it, get past it.

Uh-huh. That he's just up there laying there and he was like, you know, he's at home, you know, enjoying whatever. And it's really had this weird, I'm not, I'm not sure. Why though? Why, why him more than, like we've had that happen with other comics. Because I didn't, you know. Were you closer to him? No, but I felt like, because it was surprising.

Right. And because he was such a sweet guy. And it wasn't that we were really close, but I felt close to him. Yeah. And I guess it's because, I can't remember, I didn't go to him. Yeah. And, uh, you know, and I guess it's because like, you know, I, I can't remember. I don't, I didn't go to like Geraldo's funeral. I didn't go to Patrice's funeral. I didn't go to, you know, like these guys that we lost earlier on. I can't remember who else. Well, Hedberg, like, I don't even know what happened there,

but that, you know, but it wasn't like we didn't see that coming. It was terrible, but I didn't go to Mitch's funeral, but I did go to Bob's because, you know, it's of a generation of guys that I look up to. And maybe that was it. And it's also where you're at when these things hit. Sure. And I think, you know, I just, I think maybe I was avoiding funerals. Yeah. Yeah.

You know? You know, I don't, I just, I wouldn't go. Yeah. And I don't think. I guess that's it. So how's your wife? How's everything with, you know, like what is the experience of growing these kids up? Because I hear you talking about the kids.

Yeah. You know, the weed and stuff and, you know, down the hall and all that stuff. Yeah. We kind of did it. Yeah. You did it. We did it. Yeah.

We did the thing. And they're good kids. They're good kids. Yeah. They're really thing. And they're good kids. They're good kids. Yeah. They're really great, but they don't live with me anymore. I don't have to do the day-to-day. And that- Like, that project, that 20-year project of being in the house.

Yeah. On, like, running that corporation. Right. It's now shifted. It's- And you were ready for that? Or spit out the shifted. And you were ready for that? Or spit out the other end. Were you ready for it?

I didn't understand it with the first one when she left. I was like, this makes no sense. You just have to let them go be people? You just have to let them go. And I had a thing in my act where it's like, wait a minute. I did all of this for you. I didn't want this house. I didn't want these animals. I didn't want these animals.

I don't even have friends. All my friends are your friends' parents. And now you're going to go? I should go. I was like, well, this makes no sense at all. And it really threw me. But now after seeing the rhythm of that, and then she comes back for a little bit,

and we hang and we go see her someplace else, and it's natural. Right. So now with my next one just left yeah last week yeah it was a lot more like yeah this is the way it's supposed to go and i guess then you start to look forward to you know what her life's going to be as an adult yeah in a way and your life comes back yeah well what's that look like i know that people start doing comedy again, but you never left. I never left. But you know those guys that are sort of like,

I guess I'll go on the road. It's like, you might want to spruce up the act a little bit. Just the mental space of being in your house without having to worry about anybody

but myself and the dog. Yeah. And your wife. My wife. But you know, there is a mental burden that you carry with a family. But that eases?

Yeah. Because for me, I don't know how people don't continue worrying more. You worry in bigger ways. I'm worried about them. The worries don't stop, but the day-to-day minutiae of are they coming down the hall? Are they okay right now? Yeah. Can we have sex now?

Yeah. I literally just got up out of bed. I had no clothes on. Yeah. And like walked down the hall, let the dog out, walked out into my backyard and just hands on my hips like – Finally. Yeah. Finally. Yeah. And then you catch yourself in the mirror,

and you're like, let's put some clothes on just to be by myself. But I guess if you know that, you know, like, if you've instilled, if you've done the best you could, and they turned out to be level-headed people, that, you know, there is a trust that evolves, that they'll take care of themselves. Like, I imagine the general panic. My parents couldn't even handle.

I had to call my parents any time I was out if I was going to be later than a certain time. And I guess that's normal. It's normal, but that's why they have to go. They're like these women now in my house. And I have to get up early and do something. I can't fall asleep until you're home. And then they don't want to tell you when they're coming home because they're women.

They're grown people. Why should I have to tell you when I'm coming home? Why can't you say, because it's still my house. Because we're roommates. We're roommates now. You're just being a bad roommate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it gets to a point where you're like, all right, you got to go.

Yeah. And are they having fun out there? Yeah, it seems like it. where you're like, all right, you got to go. Yeah, and are they having fun out there? Yeah, it seems like it. The first one, the second one is, my first one's going to be done with school.

She's going to graduate. What's her degree in? American Studies. Seems like she's writer, arts kind of person. Good. That's practical. Yeah. Worked for us.

It did it. Kind of. We were lucky. Yeah, I know. I mean, we worked hard, but when you really look at the big picture, it's sort of like, oh, my God. I know. I mean, I barely pulled it out. I know. It was not looking good.

Yeah, I know. Yeah, I don't know. All of that stuff, like big stuff, worries is like, and I don't know. I mean, my other one, like I said, just left. So she's like kind of in that freak out freshman, like, who are going to be my friends? And I'm sleeping in a strange place. Are they close or far?

They're far. They're both East Coast. Oh, wow. But we're back there all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, your worries, you never stop. As long as you love people, there's worries. worry about my parents i worry about my sisters there's always

worry but yeah i don't like yeah you gotta kind of let go i don't seem to worry about people as much as you know the bigger picture of the the world and you, my own fucking insanity. Like, I'm trying to do this joke where the idea is, like, I wish I had, you know, more control of my imagination because what it does on its own is not great. It's so funny because when I just saw a quote about imagination, like, don't let your imagination die, and they were saying it in the way of, like, when I think of imagination's it's something fantastical and you know and rainbows and

whatever and yours is going off it's just sort of like the dark side of town oh yeah how how am i gonna get fucked you know what's gonna fall i literally sometimes just think about, like, if I'm driving, I have to fight the idea that I'm going to be T-boned in the middle of an intersection. So in your act, when you talk about those two old guys on the bench, of different ways that you can be old, and there's the one guy who's real grateful looking at the water, and then there's the other guy who's like, well, that didn't work out. I have no fucking money. Which guy are you i you know i i don't i'm not i'm not like that because things did work out you know but i'm not i'm not totally at peace but there is sort of a a cranking of of dread yeah you know that my i seem to lock in and attach anxiety to everything yeah so i i wouldn't say i'm going to be angry and attach anxiety to everything. Yeah.

So I wouldn't say I'm going to be angry and bitter, but it'll be like, I'm just going to sit here and look at the water, but it doesn't look the way it used to. I mean, it doesn't, you know. I feel like on your tombstone it's going to say, told you. I was right. We'll see. So where can people, what do you got, a website?

Yeah, I got a new website. We got the full arc. I got a new website. We're at a tombstone, so it seems like a reasonable place to end. We're at tombstones and websites. Yeah, mine's tompapa.com. And all the tour dates are there? All the tour dates, my new book.

We're all in this together, so make some room. Those are essays about cats, kids, life, things. You have cats? I do have a cat. One? I have one cat and two dogs, and I'm all team cat. After careful analysis of living with all of them, I am way in on cat. I got three.

They're the best. But now the more frightening thing is one of these might outlive me. Yeah. Dude, I just passed out on the top of the hill. I got a one-year-old kitten. That guy's going to have a new owner. We have a lizard that has a life expectancy of 50 years. It's like, well.

What's going to happen to the lizard? What kind of lizard? A gecko. Whose is that? It was my daughter's whim when she was six. And you still have it? Yeah. My wife is really an animal lover.

And, uh, so what's the gecko do? Just hangs out on a branch and waits to be sprayed. We can only hope. It's got huge balls on it. We can only hope for that life to have huge balls to lay on, on a,

on a twig and wait to be sprayed. Every once in a while. And fed bugs. Crickets on a good day, paste on regular days. Oh, looking forward to those crickets. All right, buddy. It was good seeing you. You too.

All right, folks. Wasn't that lovely? The lovely Tom Papa. You can go to TomPapa.com for his tour dates and get his book, his new book. We're all in this together, so make some room wherever you get books. And now I need you to hang out for a second. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do Papa. Beep. Every veteran has a story. Whatever your next chapter, get support with health, education, finance, and more.

At veterans.gc.ca slash services. A message from the Government of Canada. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products

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Richard Dawson sees the TV. tv he's like who is that that's that's my next running man because yes he is a greek god running around i mean that's what then it makes more sense that he turns baby face to the audience yes that they're like they go you know who which one do you want to bet on next time? And the old lady's like, oh, Ben Richards. He's a bad motherfucker. Which is amazing. That's available right now.

Tomorrow for Full Marin subscribers, you'll hear my reaction to the Arnold talk right after he left the garage. That's all in advance of the Arnold WTF episode this Thursday. To subscribe to the Full Marin, go to the episode description and click on the link or go to WTF episode this Thursday. To subscribe to the full Marin, go to the episode description and click on the link or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF plus. Here I am trying to open it up a

little bit with the slide. It's a little clunky, but I'm starting to feel, I'm starting to feel it. I'm starting to feel it. Feel it. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda cat angels everywhere. Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda cat angels everywhere.