WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1479 - Rob Halford

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

Fans know Judas Priest frontman Rob Halford as the Metal God. But he says there’s one guy called Rob Halford and another guy called The Metal God. Now, at 72 years old, Rob is embracing a life where those two personas are separate but the same. Rob talks with Marc about the perspective he’s gained after writing two books about his life and the self-awareness that comes with age. They discuss his coming out story, the court case that saw Judas Priest on the front lines of a First Amendment battle, and the origins of heavy metal. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fuckadelics what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it i just did a show up here in Bellingham, Washington. I'm recording this in my hotel room in Bellingham, Washington. Now, Rob Halford is here today. He's the front man of Judas Priest. He's regarded as one of the greatest metal singers of all time.

He wrote a memoir in 2020 called Confess and followed it up last year with a second book, Biblical. And I talked to him. I did not know what to expect. Again, I could poke around and see him on other things, but I had no idea. And I don't know that Judas Priest played a, well, they didn't. I'll be honest with you. They were not one of my bands. I was not really a metal guy early on. And it's weird when you come to metal later. Now, the thing about Judas Priest is that they were pretty accessible. I mean, they had hits. I knew the hits.

I knew the whole vibe. But I was not a metal kid. I guess, I don't know if my anger went other places or I didn't realize it was anger or I was finding my release elsewhere, you know? I think Jewish kids are more prone to, Jewish teenage boys are more prone to masturbating than metal. I'm sure they go hand in hand for some people,

but I understand the music. I was happy to talk to Rob. And it was kind of exciting because I never know what to expect from anybody when I talk to him. But what a lovely guy that guy is. And what a smart guy and a humble guy. He's out there in Arizona living a life

with his husband sometimes in San Diego. It was great. Okay, look, you guys, do you want to know where I'm working? I'll be at Largo tonight, all right? I've got Sophie Buttle and Allie Mack with me. Next month, I'm in Boston at the TD Garden for Comics Come Home on Saturday, November 4th. Denver, Colorado, I'll be at the Comedy Works South for four shows, November 17th and 18th. And Los Angeles, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on December 1st, 13th, and 28th. Also in LA, I'm at the Elysian on December 6th, 15th,

and 22nd. And Largo again on December 12th and January 9th. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets. And that's how it's going. New material is going pretty good. Bellingham was great. You know, it was part of a festival up here. And I just, I want to tell you people, if you are the people I need to tell, that I do grown-up comedy. It's for adults. It's on you. you it's your discretion whether you want to bring your children i'm not nate bargetti i love nate bargetti i've watched this special his newest one twice and i envy the cleanness of it but it is not what i do i'm not a family act and it was just one of

those things i'm walking around bellingham i went and did a sound check at the Mount Baker Theater and then I'm rushing to the one vegan place I walked into. You know, what's interesting about eating vegan is that whatever town you go to, if you find a pretty good vegan place, you can eat there the entire time you're in town. And I used to like run around and try to eat all the foods that the places had to offer,

you know, especially if, you know, they are known for something. But now with vegan stuff, it's like, just give me a real vegan restaurant that's not garbage. So I went to this place, The Fat Beat. I went there twice because it was exactly the kind of food I made at home. Maybe a couple of different sauces and their approach to beet kraut was a little different, but it was exactly what I like to eat. So I went there twice.

I'd go there three times. I went to this other place, Old Town. What was it? Like the Old Town Diner, the Old Town Cafe this morning. Amazing, amazing tofu, oatmeal. It was good. Nonetheless, so I'm walking out of the theater after a sound check people are seeing me in the street they're like hey mark maron i'm like what's

up you know that thing and and then some guy walks up to me and he's got his wife and two kids with him and these are young kids they got to be maybe 12 and maybe nine and and it's a whole family and he's just thrilled he's like oh my god we're so excited we're gonna see you and i'm like are you bringing all of them are you bringing those those children i don't think i i don't think i had that tone but i was like are they coming he's like yeah we're all coming i'm like well i gotta be honest with you man it's gonna be kind of a a rough ride really i i i don't know what to tell you, but it's going to be tricky. And then I actually said to the guy, I said, you know, I'll try to give you a heads up when something that might be difficult for them to process is about to be talked about. And I'm

like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, I got a 1200 people in there and I'm like worried about this grownup who, I don't know how, how would you know me? And I'm like worried about this grown-up who I don't know how how would you know me and I'm like I'm not criticizing him for this you know I get it you know I think sometimes parents of a certain ilk will bring kids places and really believe that they'll just go over their head they won't be able to process it but I don't think that way so now I'm worried about the kids and I actually made the offer offer to him that I would, you know, I'll give you a heads up when you got to, you know, hold their ears. I don't know what, but I just don't understand who would make a decision based on what, you know, to bring the

kids. And I really don't have anything against kids. It's just that like, you know, parents, you spend your life, you know, trying to guide your children and protect their brains, especially in the culture we live in culture we live in but they're like yeah come on let's get in the car and go see mark and i'm like i think my comedy is for everybody but it is it is for grown-ups i mean yeah there may be some advanced ish you know 15 to 20 year olds you know i they they can wrap their brain around what i do and i'm not gratuitously filthy but i talk about heavy grown-up shit so that kind of threw a wrench into my brain for a while and i didn't know what i was really gonna do i i realized early on it what i really tried to think like well what if i just made my act clean and that kind and i'm and i'm not talking about language i'm talking about ideas that i just don't

think are appropriate for for for that young a person and it would probably come out to about 23 24 minutes probably with the bigger pieces but nonetheless i still didn't really know what exactly to do so i thought about it and then you you know, I got on stage and I said, look, um, there in Bellingham, I tried to characterize Bellingham. It was kind of funny. I just, I'm like, I don't have a sense of this town, but it seems like it's filled with like doulas and potters and people that look like they're about to hike or just got back from a hike. And then there seems to be a few men around that look like they might make TikTok videos of them cooking meat outdoors with just a fire and a cast iron pan. And a few men

who look like they might be trying to play banjo in their fifties. It got good laughs. Maybe I nailed it. But I said to the people, I said, look, there's, there's a family in here. I'm not going to point them out. I don't know where they're sitting, but I thought about it. Maybe I nailed it. But I said to the people, I said, look, there's a family in here. I'm not going to point them out. I don't know where they're sitting. But I thought about it. And I thought like, look, man, this is not appropriate for children. And it's up to you. But I will refund your money if you want to split. I'm just telling you that up front because I can't tailor the act. And I'm not judging your parenting skills either, but I do want to say that as sort of a parental, it's an R-rated show.

So I don't know whether or not they took off or whether or not I changed some young man's brain forever. Because don't you remember the stuff that you saw that you weren't supposed to see when you were like 12, does it ever go away? I mean, I think I saw porn for the first time when I was 15, which is like,

just that's just, you know, the way it is now, but it did fuck my brain up. I remember seeing, you know, Jackie Vernon, when my parents took me to comedy club

and i think that might have been the primary sort of exciting traumatic experience that set me on the path to being the comic that i am now i don't know i felt bad i mean i just don't know what they based on is the only thing they saw me in bad guys. And they're like, we're going to go see the snake. I don't know how it landed or, or, or what happened, but I felt like I did. What would you call that due diligence or fair warning? Who knows? Maybe I'll hear from them. Maybe, maybe I'll, I'll hear from that kid in 10 years, Dude, you know, Jake Fogelnest, his dad used to take him to the Boston Comedy Club in New York City when he was like seven. And that kid used to watch me when he was like seven.

He turned out okay, but it was touch and go for a while. All right, look, thank you, Bellingham. It was a great food, great show, nice people. I enjoyed it. I'm looking forward to Portland next week. Rob Halford. Rob Halford, I didn't know what to expect, but I just, I knew he was one of the great heavy metal guys, but I also knew that he was gay and out, and that was a big deal. And I also knew that, you know, they were on trial when a couple of kids killed themselves and their music was blamed, but I didn't know how he would be as a guy. And it was quite a lovely conversation.

This is me talking to Rob Halford, the front man of Judas Priest. His books, Confess and Biblical, you can get them wherever you get books. Biblical comes out in paperback on November 7th. And this is me and Rob chatting it up. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode

where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special

5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. How have you not met Iggy Pop? It's that thing where, you know, you grow up in music and you suddenly form attachments to people that are not specifically about music.

It's more about the character of a person. It's more about the character of a person. It's more about their personality. Yeah. And, of course, the world knows he's just a remarkable man on many levels.

So, he's just a guy like yourself. I'd love to meet this guy and just sit down and flap my lips and open my heart.

Yeah. He's a sweet guy. I interviewed him years ago, and he's definitely not the character. That's it. Yeah. That's it. You see, there's this guy called Rob Halford, and there's this guy called the Metal God. Yeah.

And I've always enjoyed that kind of separation in personalities because I think it can be quite useful. Yeah. My friend Alice Cooper is my neighbor in Phoenix. He's like the epitome of this idea. separation in personalities because i think it can be quite useful yeah my friend alice cooper is my neighbor in phoenix he's like the epitome of this idea yeah you know you see this this whatever this is on stage and that's where your focus is on the experience of a live show as well as the music yeah and then you you have all these wonderful things flipping around in your mind like what does he have for breakfast?

You know, the crazy stuff. And you realize, you know, we're all the same. We're all the same. But that's what I love about entertainment. And that's what I love about show business. We need it. Humanity needs escape. It's just a vital part of what makes the world go around.

Sure. Yeah. It's just a vital part of commit to the full regalia of an elevated character i mean and clearly you're in both books that it does feel amazing but uh but was there a sense other than with drug and alcohol that you would become the metal god it kind of wraps itself around you you're not aware of this happening yeah this this moniker this metal god thing came about from this song on the british steel album metal gods and i'm definitely not the kind of guy that wakes up one day and goes today i'm going to be known henceforth from the metal guard all all bow down and praise me it was just popping up in interviews and conversations and this that and the other this is pretty cool you know it's nice to have this this attachment but then you see you have to be aware of the seriousness of this kind of position yeah because some people a lot of people

really commit themselves yeah they really make this strong emotional commitment and connection to you so when when you bump into me pushing my trolley yeah and fries or whatever that can't be the metal god because there's this there's this great manifestation that goes on about is this this is on stage, is this how he dresses when he walks around the house and goes to the store, whatever. Right. So you have to be respectful. I think respect is the big thing in the relationship that we have with our fans, especially. Respect your fans, because God knows, without them, we wouldn't have what we're doing right now.

You know, everybody needs a support system. Yeah. Because God knows, without them, we wouldn't have what we're doing right now. Everybody needs a support system. Yeah. Whether it's a family, whether it's a million fans, whether it's a work friend, whether it's a school friend. Right. That connectivity is important to us on every level. So I embrace it, and I probably understand it more now as an old man in my 70s, my early moving to mid 70s, I appreciate the value of what this moniker, the Metal God, means now more than I did like 20, 30, 40 years ago. But it seems like even when you write about it, that you always had a real empathy for whatever the struggles of your fans were going through or for whatever really why they needed the music or who they were as a group that they you know were experiencing emotional upheavals on a full spectrum of levels as as

usually at the beginning adolescent you know angry repressed frustrated troubled people so but it seems like you never you always sort of felt that and identified that. So to be gracious in encounters with them. I imagine now if somebody does find you and sees you travel, you're still metal enough. I mean. Yeah, I think you do. I think you do. You never lose that mantle. Yeah.

You never lose it. It's there with you, particularly when you're out in public, but you're not on stage. Yeah. And my radar is always on, you uh particularly when you're out in public but you're not on stage yeah and and uh my radar's always on you know when i'm out and about people coming at you yeah and you know exactly who they are at this exactly and and you just you're gracious yeah absolutely and there's no way to be any other way than that and lord knows when you when you've done a show and you get on the plane and you fly for two hours and you get off the plane and you're checking into the hotel at three in the morning and there are people waiting for you. Right. You better be ready for that.

You know, you better be ready for saying, wow, thank you so much. You know, it's the middle of the night and you're here. And yeah, sure, I'll sign this stuff. You have to be ready for that. Sure, I'll sign all 90 of the records and the pictures. Yeah, yeah. They may go into and the pictures. Yeah, yeah. They may go into the eBay world. This is a whole other podcast.

Have you noticed those guys all look the same? The eBay guys? Like no matter what city I go to, maybe there's one or two, but I'm like, are you the same guys? They travel. They catch a plane. They catch a bus. They catch a train. They do.

They text each other. Right, right. I had an incident not too long ago in Phoenix. I got off the plane from a long flight somewhere. How do they know you're on the plane? Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you. What?

Before I was surrounded by a bazillion things to sign, I said to this one guy, I said, how the hell did you know that I was on that flight? You knew him from the other place? And he goes, oh, we got a friend on the inside that works at the airport. I go, what do you mean by that? How were they able to get the flight manifesto of the passengers? And he goes, oh, we got somebody that works like with the fire department or something. And I said, you know who's on the plane? Yeah.

And he goes, yeah. I'm like, what? The lengths that some people will go to. And that's a kind of a scary thought. It is. That somebody that's nothing to do with what we're talking about is able to get the plane manifest and, oh, he's on this plane leaving at this time and getting in at this place.

Looking for celebrities. At this gate at the airport. That happened to me once. Like, obviously, I'm not a metal god, but I have a few fans. And I couldn't understand how they knew. Because it was like in iowa or somewhere like how the fuck did you know that i'm on this plane everywhere i'll tell you where it's not i tell you where it doesn't happen in my worldly travel so far i don't think it really happens

it doesn't happen in japan i don't know if you've ever been to japan no it's a beautiful place i want to go you gotta go it's this incredible balance between the Western experience and their Eastern philosophy, who they are and where they came from. Yeah. Incredible, incredibly respectful people. It seems aesthetically pleasing. It is. Yeah. And, you know, it's just mind-blowing the things that you can see there if you're into all of this art and creativity, music, whatever it is, kabuki.

It's just absolutely fascinating. But the way they balance that up, you know, because up until the Second World War, they were closed off from the rest of the world. You know, they lived their own thing. It was purely Japan. Yeah. And then, of course, things changed dramatically, but they never lost that part of their DNA. Yeah. There's a great band called Baby Metal.

I don't know if you've heard of them. No. There's three girls. There was a lot of kickback when they first came about because it looked purely manufactured, commercially manufactured to make money, you know? It's a Japanese metal band? Japanese metal band, Baby Metal. Okay.

It's an all-girl band. Yeah. It's all-girl singers. Sorry, they've got guys in the band that play with them. And they dress in a really kind of special way. And when they first appeared, there was a tremendous amount of hostility and pushback. Because, again, in the metal world, there's a tremendous amount of protection and self-worth and self-value. Of the authenticity of what is perceived as such?

It's got to be real. Keep it real, you know. So when this band first appeared, there was a real lot of pushback, but they worked so hard. And now, I mean, in Japan, they sell out stadiums, 80,000 people a night. They'll do what they call a black show and then a red show. Everybody dresses in black. Everybody is 80,000 people a pop, you know. Oh call a black show and then a red show everybody dresses in black everybody is 80 000 people apart oh yeah massive in their own country and they've worked

really hard to take this idea take this music around the world and it's going it's going traction i've watched them exponentially grow but this idea we're talking about with the way the japanese people will take something from from the West, that's the right word to say, and then emulate it, but give it their own identity and creativity from the Japanese point of view. Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of that in Japan, you know, and there are no eBayers. Yeah. But now there will be.

There's none of those guys. None of those guys. It's never women. There's none of those guys. None of those guys. It's never women. There's a few, but yeah. Here's another interesting thing about metal.

For the longest time, it was a predominantly male structure. Yeah. You didn't have girl singers. You didn't have girls in bands. Oh, no, this is metal. It was a very sexist, misogynistic thing. But you did have girlfriends who were pretty excited. Yeah, yeah.

But in the role of musicians, it was, and I never, as a gay guy, I could never really quite figure that out, you know. But, again, we break through, slowly but surely, you break through barriers. That's what I love about music. The openness and complete, unconditional love of music is acceptance for everybody doing whatever they choose to do. Yeah. And so.

Sometimes more popular, sometimes less, but you can kind of do whatever you want. But again, respect, you know. So it's great to see how that's changed now. The metal world is so much more open than it used to be. Well, before I, I kind of want to go into the metal world a little bit, but before I lose my thought around the metal God idea, is that in the new book, Biblical, like it seems like, you know, with the success of the first book, you were basically able to just make a list of things that, you know,

you had something to say about and just put the book together like that. Whatever it is, streaming, band managers, sex, sobriety. But one thing that you cleared up for me, because I know musicians, I talk to musicians sometimes, and I've had friends in bands, was you kind of were able to kind of, to get back to the metal god idea, to talk specifically about how a lead singer becomes insane. Because, like, you know, I know, like, I've known guys in bands,

and there was always this idea that, well, the singer's insane. And you were able to avoid that, but you were able to observe the insanity happening in other bands. Brock, you know, as I was driving here today to the Cat Ranch, You know, as I was driving here today to the Cat Ranch, I passed Forest Lawn, where I had two beautiful memories of Ronnie James Dio's memorial and Lemmy's memorial service. And I'm trying to link that to, in an abstract way, that they were not lost through insanity. They were lost through totally different issues. Right. But as far as thinking about those guys in the world that they lived in, the craziness of the rock and roll world, the insanity, the sex and drugs and rock and roll.

Yeah. Part of what we have. Not so much the drugs now because everybody gets off the bus and starts lifting weights yeah which is great is it yeah i think it is yeah tell that to tell that to jim morrison um but uh but yeah the insanity the way that you have to really get your mind in focus and to be able to sit back and think, what is actually going on here, you know? Yeah. Why am I emotions in this place, you know? Why do I have to reach for a drink now?

Why do I have to take a drug now? Why is this peer pressure? But also the idea that some of them drift into an ego state of mind, elevated ego state of mind where they are the band. And the limo has to be at 66 degrees. And if it's 67, I'm not getting in that limo. It's an easy trap to fall into. Because it just happens.

You've got to be aware of it happening. I mean, of feeling those things. I don't know how you would do that. I'll tell you the thing about a lot of bands is that, I was going to say, I was going to use Priest as a reference. Yeah. You know, guys even now have difficulty talking to other guys about their emotions and their feelings. Sure. It's just the way we're made up.

And I come from a different place. I was born in 1951. But also British, so that doubles it. Yeah, you don't cry. Men don't cry, you know. Men bring home the wages and put them on the table and all that kind of stuff. And stuff everything.

Yeah, and stuff it all and never let that out, the anger and the frustration that so many men must have felt back then. But even now, you know know it's a subject that this whole thing about men being open and and men hurting and men having feelings yeah you know it's it's vital that even in 2023 we we push the message out that we we have to talk about these things but in bands here's the thing when a when priest finishes a tour, that's it. We have literally no contact with each other, you know. And it's, you kind of use the word family. Yeah.

But it's almost like a dysfunctional family. Yeah, of course. Because you've got all these guys with different temperaments, different characteristics, different personalities. Yeah. And this insanity thing, I wish there was somebody I could go and speak to, you know? Yeah, right. And if you don't have that, but you're surrounded by yes people because they want their job, they want their wage packet every month.

They're going to go yes to everything. Yes, you're right. Yes, this, yes, that. Yeah, take a few more drinks. Yeah, have some more drugs. Yeah. You know, because they value what they've got going on in life, you know? They're not going to suddenly say,

don't do this, don't do that. You're fired. Nobody wants to be fired. So this over-believing in yourself and inflating who you are, it's a deadly trap. Yeah, and you can't be self-aware about it. It's one of those weird things

because I think everybody has that blind spot of ego where they don't have a complete reflection of who they are. They don't have the humility enough to see themselves clearly. So I imagine when you have 20,000 people chanting your name, how would you not tip over into some sort of strange kind of position? It's very easy to fall into the, don't you know who I am syndrome? Right, No. Right.

But I tell you, this is also part of my own kind of dysfunctional life as it was then, not so much now because I've been clean and sober for 36 years. But you do, you play to all those people, you pour your heart out, You're letting out all this pain and angst in your voice and your performance. I'm just talking about me. I'm not talking about the rest of the band. I'm just using this as an idea. You've got all that, right? You come off stage.

You do your food. You do your chit-chat, whatever. Where are we going tomorrow? Blah, blah, blah. You go back to your hotel room. You close the door. Yeah. It's you, blah, blah, blah. You go back to your hotel room. You close the door. It's you. It's you, man.

It's you. Look at yourself in the bathroom mirror. It's just you, dude. Sitting there eating a candy bar from the mini bar, maybe three candy bars, jerking off. Did you read my jerking off story? Yeah. That was pretty funny, wasn't it?

It was. I felt bad for you. Finagled away to watch like 10 seconds of a porno on those boxes that I used to have on the TVs. Yeah, pre-computer. Pre-getting your porn on your phone, you really had to bend your brain a bit. But no, the humility of that is interesting, especially because I've been sober a long time, too. And when you do get off stage and you're still feeling that you're jacked up and you've sort of burned through the possibility of hooking up with somebody or whatever. And then you get back to your hotel room

and it's just, you know, candy and jerking off. And at some point you just got to be like, I'm winning. This is good. I deserve this. Yes. Well, do you think that for all those years, one of the things that kept your ego in check,

because in the writing, it seems like it, even in the midst of it, and even looking back on your behavior, your drug problems or whatever, that this sort of being closeted and then on top of that self-medicating, that there was a type of shame that kind of grounded you in your personal life that probably saved you in some ways from your ego getting too far away from you. Yeah, I think my background is from where I come from in the West Midlands. Yeah. Called the black country. Yeah. It goes back to the Victorian age where it was all coal mining and steel.

And, you know, the country was covered in black soot and so toxic. I talk about in Confess, you know, walking to school past a metal steelworks and the toxic fumes and everything was blowing into people's gardens and homes. But the roots of who I am are from my family. And this business of this being from the West Midlands and being from the black country and being a yam-yam, as we call ourselves, a yam-yam. What does that stand for? It's kind of a nickname for the personalities of the West Midlands and the black country. Yeah.

You don't put yourself on a pedestal. It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter what kind of house you live in. It doesn't matter how much money you've got in the bank. You don't do that. We're all the same. We're all people on the same level, regardless of our material wealth, whatever it is.

So is that level, though? regardless of our material wealth, whatever it is, you know? So is that level, though, that sounds sort of pleasant and almost utopian, but is the level that we're all on shit? I think that helps, you know. I figured that out late running life, you know. We're all swimming through shit and trying not to drown. So you try, you struggle to try and find that balance. And it's terribly difficult to do when you're, A, you're gay and nobody knows about it apart from a handful of people.

Yeah. You know. And then B, you've got this cocaine problem. And then C, you've got this, like, I come off stage, I must have my six cans of Budweiser, a bottle of Dom Perignon and a line of Coke every show. Yeah. You know, you've got all that going on. And I read this book after it was done.

I'm like, who is this guy? Which one, the new one or Confess? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who is this guy, you know? Yeah. How did you get through that, you know? And then we go into this beautiful spiritual higher power thing that i that i knew was always going on in the background through all that shit that i was going through there was

somebody there you know you did think that there was somebody there yeah and um i think even in those really dark moments there was there was like that little teeny tiny bit of light, little bit of a spark that was going on, you know. This thing about loneliness. Yeah. You're born alone, you die alone. Right. You know? Sure.

Get that into perspective, you know. I just watched the ending of War and Peace, a great BBC production. Yeah. And watching some of the people pass in that show and some of the people pass with friends around them. And I think that's a great way to go out. Yeah, if you have the time. Yeah.

Sometimes it happens quickly. I would like mine to be quick. I don't want the long lingering exit. Yeah. But maybe a day or two? Yeah. Give me a Maybe a day or two. Yeah. Give me a day. Give me time to text all my, I'm going now.

I won't be coming back. You won't be getting any more texts. No more dick pics for you. You know, not sending any more porn over the phone. All that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But the idea of higher power, like it seems like, you know, you went to rehab, but in the book you say you don't really do the thing.

You don't do the secret meetings, which I've kind of not grown out of. I still go occasionally. But it seems that the idea of the spiritual framework of AA kind of stuck with you in terms of. I think that was always there. Yeah. I think I just needed to be shown the way a little bit sure yeah i was 30 days in in rehab and i and i met some beautiful people that were all from from all walks of life and that's a great thing about that right we're all yeah we're

always the same uh so this understanding of the there is something else going on that, you know, if you tune into that, if you find a way to experience that and hear some ideas and some suggestions. You ever hear that saying, God doesn't wake up and think he's you? That's pretty good. But yeah, but you also had that like something. I mean, I had it too. There was always some part of me that believed that, you know, I wasn't going to lose myself. And you were at the precipice of suicide because of the hopelessness and loneliness of cocaine and everything else. But you didn't do it.

I mean, there's something that got hold of you, whatever that little window. Like something. I mean, you did a pretty good hold of you, whatever that little window, like something. I mean, you did a pretty good run, but yet you didn't die. Yeah, and why didn't I die? You know, I mean, there you go. And then you say, well, why did some of my friends die? Well, didn't your partner die from it? Yeah, my partner who put a gun in his mouth.

Oh, my God. That was just, you know, he was having one of his tantrum rages and I had to leave because I knew it was just going to get explosive. And I left and I went to a hotel by the airport in Philadelphia and I called a friend. I said, would you just go check in Philadelphia. And I called a friend. I said, would you just go check in on him? And he was gone. He walked into the room and he could still smell the cordite.

Oh, really? So I went back like two hours later. I go over to the hospital and he's all hooked up and he's gone, you know. But they keep him long. Thank God his organs went on to save other people's lives. But that's the extreme, you know. Was that your first real partner? Kind of, you know.

That was Brad? Was his name Brad? Yeah. Yeah. The one, the love of my life now, Thomas. We've been together for 3,000 years. Oh, that's good. He's from Alabama.

Oh, nice. And he's a vet. Yeah. He was in Mogadishu. Oh, wow. That was heavy. Yeah. He was in Special Forces Mogadish vet. Yeah. He was in Mogadishu. Oh, wow. That was heavy. Yeah. He was in Special Forces Mogadishu and in Iraq.

So it's a very interesting part of our relationship. He sounds like he's a real metal guy. Yeah. But he's never really opened up on that side of stuff. And you know how the gays know everything. We don't. Yeah. You know. Again, respect. of stuff and you know how the guys know everything we don't yeah you know again respect don't draw things out of people if they're not already leading you there sure you know yeah i definitely

know that so i talk to people twice a week yes so so uh this business of uh of beings in this dark is the only way out is the blackness, you know, and then hopefully some light or flames. It's a miracle. It really is a miracle. That's the only way I can describe it. It kind of is, right? Because as you get older. What do you think about that part of you? Is miracle the right word to use?

Well, I mean, I don't really know. Well, what happens is, and I imagine you feel it every day, is you wonder, and you say it in the books, you know, like, why am I alive? I would not have been alive. Like, that's what you really know once you get a little bit of sobriety. There was no way that I was going to continue living as long as this, if I continued that. And whatever stepped in, I mean, I think the real miracle is when you don't really think about it anymore, but, you know, drugs or anything else.

But the miracle, it was a miracle, and I do think there is some will involved, but the fact is that when you get the real understanding that you can't do it anymore and you know that in your heart, that's kind of a miracle. You're sick of being sick. Yeah. You're sick of feeling sick. Yeah. And also just that when you get that idea that in the racket they call it the powerlessness, that you can't.

The only thing you need to know that is if you put another, if you take drink you're fucked and you have no protection uh against the next one really i guess it's a miracle i feel all right do you pray i do at times uh like i if i can't sleep i'll run like a mantra of a serenity prayer through my head because of the rhythm of it and the idea of it and this sort of non-denominational element. It's a great little prayer. It is. I use it all the time. Yeah. I start my day with prayer and I end my day with prayer.

That's just become, you know, as well, when you're an addict, you kind of push one addiction out the way and you bring another one in. So I'm kind of addicted to prayer, which, is that right? It's relatively healthy, I think. I think it's, yeah. So, but I find that really important to me. I pray throughout the day. Really? Just, you know, I'm not down on your knees thing, because I think, man, if you want to

go really, really deep and thinking about human consciousness and the cosmos, and we're all atoms and neutrons and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. Well, I can't do that. I mean, the prayer thing for me, I mean, it was given to me as a suggestion to do. I don't really have a tangible, not tangible, I don't have an established God in my mind, but I do know, and somebody once told me that,

when you do pray, the sort of neural pathways of prayer are sort of in the collective unconscious. So when you tap into that, there's a history that almost goes to the beginning of civilization that enables you to sort of put yourself into a relationship with something bigger than yourself, but also ground you in your humanity. And there it is. It's that you just, that was just so beautiful and simple. Yeah. That's what it is, you know? Yeah. And I think that's probably why I love it so much, because it makes me feel peaceful.

Yeah. You know, no matter how difficult a day I might have had, would you go to that place when I'm lying in bed and I've read my daily meditation? You got that book. I got the book. Yeah. I read that every night before I go to bed.

It's the same book you've had? Oh, actually, that got so battered and bruised, I thought, I'm going to put this in a safe place because I carried it around the world

for 35 years. I know that book. It's a popular one. Touchstones? Yeah, yeah. And so I thought, I've got to, I'll keep this there.

Maybe I'll put that on eBay. Thomas, put this on eBay when I go. So I got a new one. I primed myself a new one about a few months ago. So I have the new Touchstone. So I did the Touchstone thing. And then, God, my prayers are getting long. It's like almost 15 minutes of praying.

And do you conceive of a god? I love this thing where the atheists go, I don't believe in this man on a chair with a white beard and a white robe. Where did that come from? Well, you are the man on the beard with the white beard on the chair. Yeah, this is my, I call this my Gandalf. I like it, yeah. This is the beard that Dolly Parton tickled recently.

Oh, that's right. Rock and roll. Was that great? Yeah, that was just surreal, man. You know, when I knew that she was going to be there, you know, the gay thing, I must have a selfie with Dolly. And it ended up being more than that. We ended up going viral, this picture of me and her singing the end of Jolene.

You know, it just goes around the world. And then, you know, like three weeks later, I get a note from Dolly. Would you sing with me on my new album? And what is going on? Yeah. It's a song called Bygones. And it's a beautiful song. It's about letting bygones be bygones.

You know, there's that phrase. And when you think about what that means, she's a beautiful person on every level. She's just this bright light of love. Yeah. And you read the words, because she's been through a struggle. Yeah.

You know, all this business about the log cabin and the bare feet. It's real, man. Yeah. Country music is a struggle. I saw a t-shirt the other day, music is the best magic. Yeah day, music is the best magic. Yeah.

Or music is the greatest magic. Yeah. Which it is. No, totally. You know, what is this stuff that floats through the air, through the radio? Well, I was listening to the songs that I went to when I was in high school, your songs from Judas Priest. And, you know, and they just drop into the groove in your brain right away, right at the opening. There are the drums, and you're like, I know this song.

And the interesting thing about music, it evolves with you, and there's nothing else like that. I mean, you can read literature, and it gets deeper as you get older and you know more things. But music, it may represent some earlier part of your life, but then you listen to it again and you reposition it in your mind and in your heart. And this is why when you go on stage with a band called Judas Priest, and you know everybody in that room wants to hear a song that you wrote in 1980. Yeah. They don't give a shit about anything else. They want to sing Living After Midnight, Rocking to the Door.

Yeah. they want to sing Living After Midnight Rocking to the Door yeah you know and if you don't if you don't provide that opportunity you better just you know it's going to be bad it's going to be bad it's going to be bad

there's going to be chairs there's going to be bottles and these are like 50 year old men exactly do not piss off an angry 50 year old

50 year old metalhead yeah from Georgia yeah who has not been drinking his Bud Light, but he's just, he's lit. Yeah, he's lit and he's ready to... Play some fucking little enough to be breaking all your asshole. He wants to tap into him and his buddies

driving in that Camaro in the 80s, right? Absolutely. But you, outside of that, outside of the full catalog of hits, I mean, you you didn't shy away from taking chances of losing that guy in Georgia. ballsy and vulnerable in a way that I can't even imagine going into it that you didn't know it was a risk in terms of how you would be perceived. It's fearless. You've got to be fearless. Yeah. You know.

But, I mean, when you did it too, I mean, did you – I am a pig. Yeah. We're all pigs in shit. Sure. Look, the sentiment isn't lost on me, but when you did that, were you looking to erase what you had come from, or were you looking to just try something? Everything that we do in creativity has a connection. If we're not purely able to do it ourselves, there are some brilliant, genius people that do everything themselves.

I've never been able to do anything myself. I've always had a connectivity with another person. Yeah. And that's how that project came about, you know, through John 5. Through Trent. Trent gave me the opportunity to release it. Yeah. But John 5, John Lowry, he came into my life.

Bob Lowry, Bob Marlette. Yeah. Bob Marlette came into my life. Bob Lowry, Bob Marlette. Yeah. Bob Marlette came into my life. Yeah. And suddenly we have this thing. We're just banging around ideas in Bob's house in Calabasas or wherever he lives. And we're making this music. And I loved it because there wasn't really an idea other than let's

just see what we can make and it turned into this thing too i said we need a name well there's just me and you is just there's only the two of us yeah it's two and then we went off into this um we went off into this this land of i'm a pig and digging a hole and, and then, and then suddenly to, to start wearing like, uh, slightly more extravagant clothes that are not really metal. Yeah. And wearing a lot of makeup. Yeah.

And then suddenly going on MTV one day and go and speak. He's a gay man. Yeah. And it's out, you know, are you addressed in that get up when you, when you came out? It's a great picture of me on the internet.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause you go, well, look, obviously he is, you know, you were dressed in that get up when you when you had a great picture of me on the Internet. Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, obviously is, you know, this this this kind of closed minded thing. All gay people like to wear a dress. Well, that's interesting that, you know, you you had this space because you were in a different manifestation of you. different manifestation of you and that the the the risk that you felt during during priest around being out uh for all the number of reasons that it would ruin the band it would ruin you the fans would turn on you but now you were like almost you weren't the metal god in that moment i was the metal goddess almost you know so so yeah so i i just went in i went all in, you know. And then through kind of a really strange backdoor, and I use that openly in reference to Shishi LaRue,

the porn director, Larry, we met up, and he goes, oh, my God, you've got a new project going on. I must make a video. So like fast forward two weeks, and we're in a lot somewhere in Hollywood. For Pig? For Pig. Yeah. And he's got all of his porn friends. It's all porn, you know?

Yeah, sure. And I told Trent and Jimmy Iovine, because it was on Nothing Records. Yeah. And we did the whole thing, you know, and it was pretty risque. It's still on the YouTubes. Send it to the guys, and Jimmy goes, I'm not releasing this. I go, why?

He goes, there's no porn in it. I go, what? There's no porn in it. I go, you want porn in it? You told me it was going to be porn stars. I said, there is all porn stars if you look at them, if you know porn. Oh, there's what's it, Bridget the Midget,

there's blah, blah, blah, you know. Yeah, well, they weren't doing the fucking and the sucking and all that bit. It would never have got played. That's the whole point. Oh, yeah. It would have been banned. And I'm like, I mean, so you want me to make a video

that's going to be banned, which means the music isn't listened to, so it's just like silence? Yeah. It's like silent porn. There's just nothing going on, you know? Yeah. There's just a black screen.

Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted. It's like, wow, you know, how the business works. So did you release a video on it? We released a video, and, you know, from an artistic point of view, I think she did a fantastic job. But that was after you came out? That's a very good question.

That's a very good question. Had we made, was all that made before we did the video? I can't, you know, I'd have to look through it, through some kind of timeline of events. Around the same time. It was around the same time, yeah. And so this thing now that we're going to go into about if you can find the headspace and the opportunity and the moment to come out, do it.

Absolutely do it. When I was driving here today, I knew we were going to talk about a lot of stuff. Yeah. Do it. Absolutely do it. You know. When I was driving here today, I knew we were going to talk about a lot of stuff. Yeah. Do you think there are more gay men, do you think there are more gay people

than we know are gay? Yes. There you go. Of course. And I think that, you know, culture is the pendulum swinging the wrong way again. Mm-hmm.

And I think that in certain states and in certain places that it's become life-threatening. It always kind of was. But I think there's a tremendous lack of empathy, support, protection in entire states now through legislation. I think we're in a bad time. Yeah, people are terrified yes people would i mean we have been we have been part of a group of people that have been you know murdered burned alive yeah you know whatever

tortured god all the most horrific things have happened to gay people as they have for other minorities you know whether it's the jew. Sure. Fucking whole color course. Imagine Jewish gay people. Jesus, double. I know a few. Yeah. There's plenty. But so, yeah, you know, as much as that is like, it's terrible.

Yeah. It's been terrible since day one. Is there going to, when is there going to be an end to it? I don't think there'll ever be an end to it while we have the attacks going on, the extremist attacks for political reasons or for bigotry. You can't get rid of bigots. You can't get rid of that kind of mentality of people. But don't give them a bigger voice. Of course. Don't give them a bigger voice.

And that pushes on to people that say, man, I would love to come out, but, you know, I might get walking down the street and somebody's going to hit me in the back of the head with a baseball bat. So what a terrible thing to have to walk through as a gay person that's in the shelter of your own mind. But put that forward to people that are openly out and people know about it down your street. Hey, have you heard so-and-so? They're a fag. Let's go kick the door in. You know, all that kind of mental stuff is going around. But even when you come out, I mean, I get it all the time.

Not so much, but I mean, compared to some people, but I get bashed, you know, through texts. I see what people say about me and all that kind of stuff. But initially, you were surprised by the outpouring of support and the voice you gave to people that were in your position. Yeah, because you fear rejection. Yeah, of course. You fear rejection.

That's the primary reason. People won't love me because I'm going to tell them who I am. Does that make sense? Well, it does if you're a gay person and you know, maybe you've got the kind of a job that for whatever reason. Yeah. But I think it's very interesting that this, the moment that you, you, you sort of impulsively did it, you had some space. I had some space. Do you know, I, I, I, I question whether if I had not have come out like I did, would I still be in the closet? You mean if you were just going along with Judas Priest? Yeah.

Because I talk about in the book about having to hide because it was suggested to me by people in the industry, don't tell them that you're gay. It'll be the end of the band. What a horrible thing to think about, but it's a fact. But the end of the band yeah what a horrible thing to think about but it's a fact but the guys in the band knew right the guys in the band knew and people in the in the label knew that and you know particularly through the 80s when everything was peaking in metal and a lot of the guys looked like women yeah the hair years sure my friends from motley crew yeah poison yeah my friends from poison i'm just they're good friends sure you know i'm just saying just think of how we will some of us

were looking then yeah it went from you know full-on sort of uh dom leather to full-on drag queen but but for some reason people didn't frame it that way. I don't know. How did he get to that place? Because we have the New York Dolls. Why before that? Well, that's 72. Why before that?

No. Yeah. And they spawned Aerosmith, and they took up where sort of the Stones left off in the 70s in terms of fashion and kind of elevated that. And then it seems like Aerosmith kind of took it into rock straight up. But yeah, it became a thing. But what was the tipping point? What was the tipping point when guys started to look that way? I can't think. Was there a band?

Was there a person? Because, you know. I think it was an evolution. I mean, you know, because Jagger was, you know, there was always drag around. But, like, what the hair metal bands did, they were literally teasing their hair. I think it was a case of,

we've got to do this, too, otherwise we sink in the shit. You know, we've got to... Guys, we're all going to go down to CVS and get, like, a bucket load of makeup and hairspray on that yeah and nail paint and we've got to do this if we don't look like this yeah it's the end and that's the then yeah was the the dark side of the business you know you you had to really follow my leader.

Look, they're top of the charts. We've got to look that way. We've got to sound that way. And it's not that far removed now to some extent, particularly in popular music. Were you surprised, though, with some of the lyrics and the outfits that people didn't know? Well, you know. Well, you know, I mean, as far as, you know, opinions and ideas about the attitudes of didn't you see the elephant was in the room wearing a tutu?

How come you didn't understand? It wasn't a tutu. It was a leather military cap. How come he didn't understand that? How come he didn't understand that? What I did find amusing was that when I, you know, when it became aware that this is a gay guy, well, yeah, look what he looked like. What do you mean?

Yeah, you've got the whips and the chains, and what does that mean? Yeah, well, you're obviously gay. So there's a guy here in a metal band, and he wears a biker's cap, and he's got, you know, got on stage with a studded belt, and he's got a whip and some handcuffs, and he's a biker's cap and he's got you know got on stage of the studied belt and he's got a whip and some handcuffs and he's wearing all this leather stuff and so he's he's gay yeah everybody that dresses that way is a gay you know marlon brando on the waterfront you're a gay you know well but but you know at the time like like, who was that artist? What's his name from Sweden? Or, you know, the guy who did the sort of very gay cartoons of sort of art.

Oh, Tom of Finland. Tom of Finland. What a great pioneer. Right. But there are moments on stage where it looks like Tom of Finland created you. But here's the thing, though. Yeah. How can a straight person have that perception?

No, I get it. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, they might have come across Tom of Finland. Who knows what's under the bed? Yeah, of course. So, you know, it wasn't just a hustler and penthouse. Yeah. Yeah.

I just thought that was mildly amusing because he dressed like that. Yeah. You know, he's got to be a gay guy. But it is interesting, the thing we were talking about, that the shift in the sexuality in presentation with the hair metal bands was something so aggressively feminine that was seen still through very straight eyes of the fans as just being a natural kind of evolution of the music. straight eyes of the fans as just being a natural kind of evolution of the music that you know it was it was definitely i mean those guys were definitely in drag i think they i think the side that that helped maybe bring some kind of balance that the music was tough yeah the music was tough right and maybe it was because the girls liked the guys looking like girls, and the girlfriends of the girls that looked like the guys looking like girls went along with it. Sure.

Maybe, I don't know. I think it's just like, it was just, I don't know what the psychology of it all is. It's interesting. But can we talk about before, because I don't, like, history or sense of metal, like I was a late comer, you know, I grew up in, you know, I graduated high school in 81. So it was around, but you know, my bands were not specifically the metal bands, but who defined metal? I mean, because you're kind of a band. Ooh, that's a great question. Yeah, that's an encyclopedia of answers from whoever you ask that question to. But you talk about the metal community and it is a metal community.

And you, you know, throughout both books, you're like, you miss metal when you miss it. And so it represents a community, you know, who were, you know, what is the history? Some people suggest that there was this great band called Blue Chair. Sure, I know them, yeah. Summertime Blues. Yeah. It was a really heavy song. Yep.

Some people suggest that the name Heavy Metal is from a Steppenwolf song. I think, isn't it from William Burroughs' book? Yeah, Heavy Metal Funder, William Burroughs as well. The actual name, but as far as the sound, this is the great debate, you know, because Sabbath using Sabbath as a primary example,

I've always, I've always pushed it. Sabbath. We're a heavy metal band. And my, my friend Tony will always, I only would always go, no,

we're, we're like a rock band. We're a hard rock, heavy metal. I said, no, you have, you mean?

No, no, I don't do that. So I'll take that. go no we're like a rock band we're a hard rock heavy metal i said no you're heavy man no no i don't do that so i'll take that i will take that trophy the judas priest were the first ever definitive heavy metal band yeah that's what i think so that's a big that's a that's a big thing to say you know because when this podcast comes out and they go, Alfred says the priest of the definitive heavy metal band. I stand by that statement for lots of reasons. Well, there was a drive to it that was different than Sabbath.

And it's a drive that you use through a lot of the records that I think you'll kind of move through a lot of heavy metal bands. It's a definitive sound. Yeah. It's a well-honed, fine craft that came from these guys in the band that all had their own definition of what this heavy sound, this heavy experience should be, you know? And also what you did with the Peter Green song. Green Manalisha yeah it's like you know

it was almost like metal was always there waiting to be born somehow a great a great lot of songs can take that um can take that interpretation and become bigger than the original idea yeah because that riff is so big it's it's huge and you again you don't know it. Songs take on a life of their own that you have no input or influence in any way shape or form. Once it goes out into the public arena, this now belongs to us. You may have written this song but this now belongs to us and we're going to tell you what this song is. Did you ever meet Peter? This now belongs to us, and we're going to tell you what the song is. Did you ever meet Peter? I didn't know.

I would have loved to have met him because the guy was a genius in terms of what he did with the guitar. You made him a couple bucks, I think. Probably. Probably quite a few residuals. Sure. But Christine McVie passed recently. She's from Birmingham. There's a lot of great music from Birmingham. yeah you know robert plant yeah um did you meet him yes i met him

before i was anybody he used to hang out in a bar in walsall oh he did and he'd be propping up the bar with his golden locks yeah stare at him yeah just stare at him did you like them as a band oh yeah they were a big influence for me yeah my early influences were sabbath yes they were the local guys we've known each other forever and they were really they were making this metal this mess so you were friends with all of them yes yeah still are now yeah and how's he doing oh that guy's just unbelievable you know yeah god there's got to be a biopic on that guy but i mean he's lived his life in the media yeah right from when sharon saved his life when he was at look was at the park in hollywood um and everything that we we know about him comes

from that moment in the solo experience but but he did tremendous work in Sabbath. Yeah. You know, when you become this larger-than-life personality, sometimes people forget about your musical abilities, the great things that you've done, the great monumental moments that you've had with music. And I think a lot of that gets lost on Ozzy because he's the guy that bit the head of a fucking bat.

That's, you know, okay, that might lead you through a door into a maze of a hundred other, you know, songs and albums and so forth. But for him to have gone through what he's gone through recently and for him to still have that, this great metal perseverance, recently and for him to still have that this great metal perseverance his metal determination um how we how we view it in the metal community that he's he's never giving up he's never giving in you know it's that no surrender thing like glenn glenn tipton our guitar player is parkinson just beating him up like but he's he will he will not quit you know yeah and then and then the discussion about people um not only music but in life that are facing challenges and difficulties health or

otherwise you know we've i think we've all got this inner strength it's there man it's all there we've all got it you know yeah it might be at the bottom of the shit pit, but it's there. The survival thing. Yeah. And how you do it. We've all got that. Yeah, and how, like, you, yeah, I know guys who are a little older than me that are getting these things. And initially, my experience is that their ego can't quite take it, but it will buckle you. And usually the desire is to survive.

It's all about survival. And, yeah yeah there's just such a humility to aging and to to illness that you to aging yeah have you changed as as a person in in the last like i just turned 60 just turned 60 but do you do you do you kind of feel differently than like when you like 20 or something i guess your perceptions on everything yes yes more self-awareness you know more more tolerance more uh being able to to stop myself from you know anger or from know, being more empathetic. This show has taught me a lot in terms of talking to people and getting out of myself and connecting with the pain of somebody

else. So a lot of that stuff has evolved. I'm still pretty neurotic and I still, you know, suffer from catastrophic thinking almost constantly. But in terms of behavior and just the humbling of the physical machine, sure, a little bit. And do you love yourself as a person? There are moments. I think that there's still a lot of weird self-flagellation that goes on for this or that. It's just my brain's wired for it,

a certain amount of like, you know, I'm an asshole or I'm this or I'm that. But I don't see evidence of it as much as I used to. So I know it's a phantom limb, but I haven't been able to completely, you know, get it under wraps. When you create stuff, is it, do you,

I'm, because I'm a perfectionist, I'm never happy with what I've done. Yeah. Like we've just made this new album that's coming out soon. Yeah. And I listen to it and I sometimes have to turn it off because I don't think I'm good enough. Yeah.

I don't think that, I don't think my role as a singer, as a lyricist, it's not good enough. Yeah. You know, that torture. Yeah. There's no other word for it. Why am I still doing that, you know?

Yeah, I don't know. Or the compare and despair business. Yeah, why? I mean, why? Because everybody else is going, it's great. And I love these people that say these things to me. It's fucking great, man. It's a great take.

These are some of the best lyrics you've written. Yeah. Fuck you. What do you know? of the best lyrics you've written. Yeah. Fuck you. What do you know? What do you know? You know. Yeah. Why do we do that?

Is that exclusively for creative, artistic people? I guess. Confident artists, they're a little annoying. You know, the secret language of self-flagellation, shame, and never feeling good enough. You know, that's our territory. I don't know. You know, with me, because I do stand-up and, you know, it is sort of a very personal and it evolves. And, you know, once the bits, like I don't beat myself up as much.

Sometimes I wonder why I say certain things. Sometimes I wonder why I think the audience needs to hear about things. I'm very personal. But I get a little perfectionist, but I can let it go a little bit sometimes. I think music's a little different because you can just keep taking and taking. And there's no end to how many times you can try something and eventually you don't even know anymore. to how many times you can try something and eventually you don't even know anymore. You know, with comedy, you know, you're kind of,

you know, once you put it on record, you put it on the special, that's it. And then it goes away. And can you let that go? Yeah, I can. I can. You've got to be able to do that, this let it go, let it go, this Disney thing.

What I have a hard time with is comparing myself to others. You know, accepting my own work, I've gotten better at that. go. What I have a hard time with is comparing myself to others. Accepting my own work, I've gotten better at that. But thinking that, you know, why the fuck is that guy got, you know, Why is he selling out Madison Square Garden? Square Garden in Armant like Chico's in Pennsylvania. It's under the pizza store and there's three people in the room. Yeah. Well, I mean, you, well, yeah, but I've gotten better at that.

I mean, and I think that, I don't think I, as my friend Jim Gaffigan said, I don't think I ever touched the sun. You know, I was never in Rio at that rock show for 100,000 people. I never had the experience that you had, but I've grown to accept the fact that like, hey, maybe what I do isn't for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. That's't for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. That's why.

Yeah. The light bulb went off. Yeah. That's why. Yeah. And then I have to accept that. And that's where I'm at now. Thankfully, I'm getting it done before I die, but it's still a little late.

Right? It's always late. But so we were talking a little bit, and I think we should talk about it because, you know, in talking about comics, like I recently rewatched, you know, not knowing I was going to talk to you even. I recently rewatched Bill Hicks' bit about the case against Judas Priest. Do you know that bit? Have you seen it? It's on my notebook of notes. Yes.

I haven't seen the bit yet. Really? But tell me what it is. Well, I mean, it's from years ago. Hicks has been dead a long time. You know, but it was a lot of the arguments that you made, which is like, you know, what kind of band would want their fans to die? Number one. Right?

Yes. Number two, like he just, you know, he talks about there. I think there's actually two bits he talks about. Look, if you're sitting around playing a record backwards, you're Satan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's because who put that idea in your head? Right. Satan. So like he was definitely, you know, really kind of fleshing out comedically and only his way. kind of fleshing out comedically in only his way. And he was a ballsy, kind of a real kind of aggressive, misanthropic humanist.

He was a great comic. You should check it out. But I remember when all that happened, and even reading the account of it in Confess, it's interesting because of the culture we live in now and because of religious fanaticism and whatever other reasons and also this is

the age of the lawyer and that you were to this day not happy with the way it was settled. No, because now stepping back because stepping back

is a good thing to do. Yeah. Especially in something so violent. Yeah. It's like an atomic bomb going off in front of your face in a courtroom, you know, and you're literally hearing things where you just want to stand up and scream, but you can't because of court decorum and all that kind of stuff. It was almost like I'd be sitting there and I'd be looking around i'm like is this a fucking movie am i in a movie now this isn't real surely to god this isn't real but it was real very real and the ramifications of this suggestion that subliminal messages are real and subliminal messages can influence a person to do something it's just and and and to have a judge find for the

prosecution just think about that you know just think about how far that could go right the and the argument about using well in in did did this really happen in movie theaters they would they would insert two frames of popcorn into the movie, say, oh, I need some popcorn now. But that's not subliminal. That's real. You actually really saw something physically manifest itself in front of you.

How do you do that with music? This suggestion that do it, which wasn't even a thing, it was just the way I was singing and the way I, because I did it in the courtroom. Yeah. I sang the phrase and the way that it, you know,

if you want to bring Satan onto the stand, he definitely said do it. It wasn't, you know, it was just a complete fluke. It was a fluke. So to use that as your case, to potentially destroy this band

and to potentially put a radio station, every radio station in America would have to run a disclaimer before they played every song. You know, before we play this song, we would like to say that if you hear a subliminal message, we are not liable to...

You know the guy that speaks a million words in 10 seconds? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got to do that every time you play a song. The insanity of the whole end game was just, didn't people really think this through? Because a lot of people don't think things through. You know, I always think things through.

I can be impulsive and spontaneous, but at the same time, I know what the end is. I know what the end is. You know, I know what I'm aiming for. They didn't seem to have a game plan. They didn't seem to have an end in sight. What it was, it was shifting the blame. Off the parents. Yes.

And they wanted some sort of justice but couldn't take responsibility for their part of how they brought these poor kids up. Whipping post. And I have every empathy for what those family members and parents and friends went through. I have every empathy for their suffering and friends went through i have every empathy uh for their suffering yeah they went through but more importantly the loss of these two beautiful boys who were hardcore metal fans they loved metal metal was their shelter yeah metal was their escapism metal was getting out of the dysfunctional screaming and yelling and punching and throwing environment. Yeah.

And I'm going to go into this beautiful world of metal and I'm going to get lost and enjoy and forget all the shit on all this business. Process the feelings with the music. And then this terrible thing happens, which has absolutely no relativity to music whatsoever. It was a state of mind. It was a dare. It was kids playing around, whatever you want to talk about. That horrible moment when the trigger was pulled, the trigger was pulled,

and then these guys were in a courtroom in Reno, Nevada, fighting for their life. Beyond us, the industry was fighting for its life. That's why the label financed the whole thing, because they could understand what the potential was. So I run off to Puerto Vallarta to escape everything that's, you know, wait for the ruling from the judge. And he gives this very kind of ambiguous, wish-washy right well it could have been this

it could have been that you know the guys are okay they were just blah you know the i'm sure they meant well but blah blah blah and you didn't make it you didn't prove as opposed to just say this is all bullshit you didn't prove your case there you go so he he left uh uh an opening yeah that's the thing he left the opening yeah Yeah. That's the thing. He left the opening. Yeah. You know when you close a door, you're supposed to close it. Yeah.

But if you don't close it, you can see through the gap. Yeah. And you can hear people and you can see all the stuff going on. It's still an argument around rap lyrics, around rock lyrics that it promotes violence. And Zappa used to fight against it. I mean, there was big hearings on it. But what was interesting about yours was at the beginning of it that these subliminal messages didn't exist. And if you're playing a record backwards, what the fuck are you doing anyways?

And that your lawyers were able to prove that you can actually hear things and other things said backwards that were nonsense. Right. But the idea that the judge says that the first amendment doesn't protect speech that's played backwards is crazy he's saying it's crazy uh that that that must have been the the red flag at the beginning where you're like oh we're we're fighting for our life here if that's the way he's going to con the Constitution. Yeah. How one person who is a judge has his own particular... Yeah.

You read the Constitution, and it's there in black and white. I'm not American. I love this country. I've lived here long enough. I pay my taxes. All of my taxes are through the IRS. So I think I have a voice economically. But this is great. I'll read the constitution.

I'll tell you what I think. Give that piece of the constitution to the judge and he'll tell you a completely different story. I mean, but that fight against censorship has been real and long fought. Since Elvis went on. Lenny Bruce. Ed Sullivan.

Yeah. And they would do not put the camera below his waist. That's a great story. Did you see the biopic? Yeah. Just a great story. Yeah. But, but Lenny Bruce.

Yeah. It's a fight and I welcome it and I think it's important. Yeah. Because I'm about as liberal as you'll ever meet you know i hate censorship in any way way form whatsoever i'm all for giving people a heads up yeah and sure some of my friends would argue against that don't give them a heads up you know so when we went into the ratings world where d snyder had to go to washington and talk about you know we're not going to take it and

and twisted motherfucking sister all this business you know and all these guys in suits are trying to connect to this guy's world and they're clueless they don't even know what how much a gallon of milk costs yeah let alone talking about music you know yeah so um when when this all the typical business you know and we suddenly we had ratings on on records so you could argue that yeah it's in the movies movies have suggestions who makes those suggestions i don't know there's a board of people that go yeah there's too much there are too many tits in this film it It's an R rating or it's whatever. So this idea of putting that into music and parental guidance, you know. Yeah.

You know, you've got a 10, 11-year-old kid who's suddenly a metalhead and they want to hear a song and and this album and this is all this profanity and this and the other whose role is it to protect that kid is it the parents yeah the record label is it the band who's who's who's in the game who's on the pitch here now who's who's refereeing this whole thing right you know yeah we can give you an idea. We can give you a suggestion. We can put on this Judas Priest album, PG rated or whatever it is. I don't know what the hell it's called, you know? So that was a very interesting experience and exercise to watch this because I was in the country when all of those hearings were going on.

And I knew the heart and soul of it was politics. Of course, mobilizing religious fanatics. That's all it was. Yeah. It was votes. Yeah. It was all about votes. Yeah.

And to blaspheme music at that level, to pour fire onto it and set it to light just for your political agenda, just so you could get the votes, you know? Yeah. That's how you, I mean, there's a clip of Zappa in like 86, you know, around censorship saying that what this country is headed towards is a Christian theocracy. And it was on crossfire and robert

novak was like what are you talking about and he was right he's absolutely right i mean you know taking taking the books out of schools taking the books out of libraries in 2023 it's yeah and you know i was a i was born in 1951 and you know the world war ii had just ended and a lot of my country was still flattened and rebuilding. Yeah. And before that, there was this guy that would burn all the books that he didn't like and this guy would burn all the art that he didn't like

and this guy would, you know, Burn all the Jews that he didn't like. because he didn't fucking like Jewish people. Yeah. How far are we removed from that to now? Not that far. Not that far. Not even a hundred years.

No. Yeah. So, after all but i for some reason i want to come back you you were very close with ronnie james dio right we were yes we were friends i wouldn't say i was as close to him as some people but we had a friendship based on a mutual respect for each other's work and he came after you though right in terms of metal? About the same time. Oh, yeah?

He's got a great life story. Great life story from when he started. And Lemmy, was that a little after you? Lemmy, Motorhead, you know, Lemmy was part of what was called the New Wave of British Heavy Metal. Okay, okay, yeah. And so that music from both of those guys,

Ronnie in particular, because he's a fellow singer, and he still is a tremendous inspiration. I listen to ronnie before i go on stage just has just as you know you work yourself up rainbow ronnie or ronnie ronnie ronnie ronnie yeah you know you're going from a room with four or five people into on stage there's 20 000 people waiting you better be ready yeah yeah yeah you better be on yeah you know yeah what do you do before you walk out do you do you just walk out from your your dressing room oddly because i work in small theaters and comedy clubs i listen to the uh to the the the kind of uh volume of the audience chatter and i can sort of tell how much they've had to drink. Yeah.

Yeah, so I kind of gauge that and kind of mentally sort of prepare how I'm going to approach this, because I like to sort of be pretty vulnerable pretty quickly. I'm not there to blow them out of the water, but I kind of listen to the audience, I watch my opening act, and I decide what my approach is going to be for the first 10 minutes to get to where I want to go.

So that's how, that's what I do. But in terms of preparation, I don't know. I tend to just make sure I see where I am. I'm very, I'm sort of like, I love backstage areas because for me it's sort of like, this is show business. Oh, man, I love it i love it i love walking to the stage yeah yeah i love saying hi to the the janitor and yeah exactly yeah yeah i loved saying hi to those people you know because without them we wouldn't be able to but it's grounding it's grounding yeah it it does and i i love it you know because you go from that into

disney yeah you know yeah yeah. It's great. But when you do it, is there a correlation? Because in music, when I'm putting a set list together for the band, I start at a certain place, I take us through to this midpoint end, midpoint experience, and then I end with the fireworks for the July. Do you do that with stand-up? I definitely have a closing piece. You know, I kind of move around

and decide what I want to close with. We are working towards it. I like to leave room for improvising, you know, depending on the town I'm in. I like to make it very personal and have as less of a fourth wall as I can without them actually having a conversation with me. So, like, I'm creating an intimacy

where I think ultimately you're creating a spectacle, which is, you know, it's just a different racket, right? Yeah. It's a different racket, but it's just like, how do you cope with the person that flips you off or talks? Yeah. I'm pretty good at shutting them down. I can be relatively diplomatic, but at this point, most of the people that come are my

fans. I can be relatively diplomatic, but at this point, most of the people that come are my fans. And a lot of times when they talk, it's because I've created an environment where they think we're in conversation. And so I can be fairly polite with shutting them up and just say like, oh, look, I'm not that interested in you right now. I appreciate your input, but I think it's got to stop here. Yes, that's the polite verbal bird. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Now, where does ACDC fit into your world?

Anywhere? Oh, this is amazing. Yes. Love them. They were the ones. Who was I talking to? I was talking to the driver last night, Steve, who picked me up from the airport. We were driving from Burbank to the hotel.

Yeah. And we were talking about this big event that's coming up, the power trip. Oh, with guns and ACDC. Yeah. So we're going Friday, Saturday, Sunday. We're on Saturday night. I love Saturday night. Yeah.

So it's priest on Saturday night, ACDC and Judas Priest. The beautiful thing about this, and why is it happening? Because it's just too fucking coincidental. Why is it happening that Ozzy has to say, I can't make it, so I'm bringing my mates, Judas Priest, in to do my spot. Yeah. And we drop everything because we have each other's backs in the real sense of what that means. But why is it happening that we're with ACDC who took Judas Priest out on a European tour in 76, 78?

So was that Bonn? With Bonn. Oh, 78. So was that Bonn? With Bonn. Oh, God. Great. And we have one of the most amazing, and they're filling out every venue, and they really opened the doors for us in Europe, like Gene and Paul did for Priest with Kiss,

you know, a little bit further on in the 70s, early 80s. And we're going to go back on stage together and and here's here's the real kicker i haven't seen any of those guys since then wow we haven't seen each other since then i haven't seen angus since 1978 that's crazy i can't think of a moment when we've been in a in a truck stop or an airport or whatever. Yeah. You know, and 40-something years later, these bands are still together. Yeah.

And we're still doing what we love to do. Yeah. And we're on the same bill. Could have been on any of the other nights for the way life works. Sure. But we're on the same bill. Yeah. You tell me that's like, you know.

Beautiful. That is beautiful. circle yeah yeah that's the only way you can describe it you know because you look at a band like priest we've been making metal for over 50 years yeah and there's no you know again in show business you're going to start your career on blah, blah, blah, and your career will end on blah, blah, blah. There is no, the point from the beginning to the end is never set in stone. The end is never set in stone. Sure. If you'd have told me that I was going to be screaming my tits off at 72. No.

Yeah. What are you smoking? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I will take that the final drink yeah you know it's just too remarkable and then we go off into this you know serenity serenity prayer vibe and it's just beautiful man i don't think you can really understand this until you've lived life yeah you've got to live life yeah before oh yeah well that's what i've noticed too about getting older is that you've it almost seems like you've lived more than one life because you can look back and be like who the fuck was that guy exactly like you i have to assume that you listen to some records and you're like oh my god

you know i can generally see but you know again it's a wholly different thing i used to be afraid to look at my old stuff but i'm like oh that's me it's just not me now but it's i'm i'm me and in our brains you're like i'm not like that guy anymore yeah yeah that's you that that's interesting i can look i can look way back i can i can be more i can be more kind of at ease and comfortable with referencing something that I did 30 years ago than I did like five years ago. I'm too close to that. Sure. I'm too critical of that moment.

Yeah. But I can look back at that guy. Yeah. And go, oh, look at that guy, man. He's stumping around and jumping around and screaming and devil horns. And the motorcycling. You know, living the life. Yeah.

I can look at that and that's just, but the he gets i'm like fuck that you shit you listen to you that was that that was a b sharp flat minor too low you know you didn't pronounce the word properly you know look at the way you're standing you know yeah yeah you've been very hard on yourself but uh but but it is uh it's it's's sort of interesting. You intimated in one of the books that, you know, and I have this feeling too, like I'm not nostalgic because I don't look back and feel like I had a lot of great memories necessarily. You know, I had, I think, good times, but I feel better now about myself and about my life than I ever have. I used to hate that word, nostalgia. Yeah. And now I embrace it because I understand what it means.

I understand the emotion that's connected to what that word implies. What is it? and what is it well that that that 50 year old guy that's with the bud light and then and he's playing some fucking break of the law that's nostalgia that's nostalgia you know yeah sure and and so i love it i love it you do you know it's not the best kind of nostalgia, but I'll take it. Yeah. So it's going to be interesting. I hope it goes well. I hope you have time to talk to what's left of ACDC from when you knew them. Angus is still there, you know. What a great guitar player, too.

Yeah. Now, would you call them metal? No, I wouldn't. I would call them rock. I'd call them hard rock to some extent. No, I wouldn't. I would call them rock. I'd call them hard rock to some extent. But they are unique in the sense of you say that band's name and the songs start playing in your head and there is no other band that sounds like ACDC. They got that drive. So does yours's a brand it's a sound it's acdc you know and angus never messed with that he never went off into different no opportunities he was happy with what what he's got you know and i love that i love that commitment and that tenacity to stay as you are because again

you know it's that it's that sylvester stallone we only want you as rocky that's that's the public perception that you have to live with well and i think they always sort of knew it like you know when someone asked them about the like there was a question about the new record and i think there was an answer on behalf of angus or malcolm or somebody was like we've been making the same record for the last 10 records. What do you, what do you, what do you just rearrange the notes differently? Put a few different words in. Yeah. And that's great. You know, it's like comfort food. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. We'll have fun at that thing. Thank you. And it was good talking to you. I'll be back. I'll be back. Yes. Yes.

I'll be back. Yes. Yes. Great guy, right? Biblical comes out in paperback on November 7th. And of course, you can get all the Judas Priest albums wherever you get your music. Hang out for a minute. Hang out for a minute. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a special 5 p.m start time on saturday march 9th at first ontario center in

hamilton the first 5 000 fans in attendance will get a dan dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction punch your ticket to kids night on saturday march 9th at 5 p.m in rock city at torontorock.com. Hey, if you enjoyed all the Arnold episodes last week, you should check out episode 1095 with comedian Dan Levy, who tells a great story about pitching a movie for Arnold. Went to Arnold Schwarzenegger's house, pitched it to him, and that was an insane experience. Was he governor? He was not governor.

But his essence was insane. Really? Yeah, just like, you know, this is a guy whose voice has been in my head since I don't eat ever. And he is wearing like Lululemon. And he looks older and he's eating chicken. He's like, I heard you're so funny.

I'm like, no way. You see my C-cell special? There's no way you know that I'm funny and then we like sit down and he's petting his Labrador retriever as I'm pitching him the movie and I look up and there's an oil painting of him petting the same Labrador retriever and I was like my life is insane I'm pitching with my buddy Steve as alone and then we are like getting to the end and Steve has like the emotional part. And in the middle of that, like Arnold's really looking at us like, okay, this is good.

And then a fucking horse walks in the kitchen named Whiskey. A horse? An actual like horse animal. And he stands up and he goes, Whiskey, what are you doing? You're ruining the pitch. And we're like, what? And we're just, everyone's like, all his other people are just like nodding like, okay, yeah, whiskey's here. We're like, no, no, no.

It's a horse in the house. You can listen to that episode right now for free in whatever app you're using. It's episode 1095. If you want every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for WTF plus. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF plus. And now I will have Brendan pull a riff from the archive because I'm guitarless. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer Monkey La Fonda Boomer. Monkey. La Fonda.

Live. Thank you.