WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1481 - Joan Baez

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

Joan Baez is in the midst of examining her life as the subject of a new documentary, Joan Baez: I Am a Noise. Among the many revelations is that, at a very young age, she gravitated toward sad music. What she learned early on was to embrace the music of struggle as a way to rise above the sadness. Joan talks with Marc about the emergence of the folk scene in Cambridge and Boston, how her deeply ingrained pacifism shaped her activism, and how she put in the work to rebuild her relationship with her son. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Every veteran has a story. Whatever your next chapter, get support with health, education, finance and more. At veterans.gc.ca slash services. A message from the Government of Canada. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode

where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast broadcasting from a hotel room in Portland, Oregon, where I've been for a few days. How are you guys doing? I love Portland. I was concerned the last time I was here. I couldn't get a sense of how the city was doing necessarily. I'm not sure I would know one way or the other, but it felt a little, I don't know, it maybe is during COVID or just post COVID. It was just, I guess everything was scary, but I certainly like being here. food thing. This place is just Portland is it seems to be just progressive politics and unbounded culinary experimentation built on a very solid foundation of ancient darkness. I don't know

what it is. And I've said this before. I just don't. There's something about the climate, about the foliage, about the weight of this city there's a history to it that i don't quite know or understand but it seems fundamentally american and fundamentally from like the 1800s and just there's some and i always talk about this there's not It's just a frequency of mystery and slight darkness to it. And I feel like everything that's happening culturally here is just in balance with that, that it's a delicate balance. I feel like at any time, the ancient darkness could be awakened and engulf the city? Am I being dramatic? Am I being poetic? What am I even trying to say? It connects with me.

It connects with me. Do you know where I'm going to be? Do you know if I'm going to be in your town? I don't know. I don't have that many road dates coming up throughout the end of the year, but I will be in Boston at the TD Garden for Comics Come Home on

Saturday, November 4th. I'll be in Denver, Colorado at the Comedy Works South for four shows, November 17th and 18th, and Los Angeles. A lot of dates in Los Angeles. I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on December 1st, 13th, and 28th. I'm at the Elysian on December 6th, 15th, 22nd, and Largo again on December 12th and January 9th. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets to all those things. And hopefully by the time I tour the dates, the theater dates I'm going to do in the new year, I will be tight, refined. My hour plus will be solid. It's been pretty fun. It's a strange thing that happens to me when I'm doing club work because I believe that to see comedy in a comedy club is where it really happens. That's where the connection between an audience and a performer is really kind of electric

because you can kind of do the one mind thing. You're not just on stage presenting your act and then waiting for laughs. It just becomes this other engaged thing. And this club has been great. I'd like to thank Helium Comedy Club personally for adjusting their method of paying tabs so I wouldn't have to deal with a random bunch of digital beeps from point-of-sale machines during the last 20 minutes of my set. There's been none of that. They're doing it old school, taking the credit cards out to the bar.

Hopefully, they'll get that technology fixed so it can just run normally. But man, I was nervous about that. But that hasn't been a problem. But the shows, the shows are wild because when I do two shows a night, you know, I'll do the first show and then the second show, I don't ever do the same exact show twice. But the second show, I don't want to drift into, I don't know how to autopilot. It's not the way that my brain works. I can't do my jokes like that because they're not structured that way. So I end up trying to engage in the moment in like last night,

well, it would be Saturday night's second show. It was just 40 minutes of riffing and old stories and trying to figure out how to stay in that present, which I think is why I've designed my life the way that I've designed my life. It seems that between comedy and talking to people on this show, I am forced into the present through engagement with other people. And I think that's one of the great nourishing necessities that some people forget to do or they're not in the situation where they can do it. Engaging, same airness, baby. The same airness is where it's at today in terms of engaging.

I talked to to Joan Baez. Now, look, this is one of those interviews where you've got such a huge life, a life that spans decades and decades, and just an important figure culturally, musically, and in terms of activism. And it is not somebody that I grew up with, because I'm a tail-end boomer. I did not come up in the sixties. Certainly have a tremendous reverence for all the music and all the things that happened in the sixties, but I didn't live it. Like I've listened to Joan Baez records, but it was not totally connected with me. I like, I couldn't reel off her songs, but I always knew who she was. And I have a lot of the records on vinyl but there's this new documentary

out about her it's called Joan Baez I am a noise now when I got the opportunity to interview her I was like of course I'll interview her but I'm going to have to immerse myself in Joan Baez so I watched the documentary and what was, and this happens too when I talk to people, and maybe you've experienced it as well, and certainly as we get older, things that we may not have been able to connect with, we are able to connect with now, or as years go by, as you keep trying, or you keep reconnecting, or all of a sudden, out of nowhere, someone's art reveals itself to you in a way that you couldn't quite grasp before.

But there was something kind of amazing about watching the documentary and really getting to know her, Joan, as a person. Because a lot of these people are so mythic. They occupy a different space in our minds. I don't know her as a person. I don't know a lot of the people I talk to as people. I know their output. I know their reputation. I know the work that defines them culturally, but you can't necessarily connect with them as people. I'm not saying

they're not authentic, but you just don't know. So I watched the doc and I was able to go back to her first records and have a different experience with the full arc of her career. Because you sort of go through a timeline in the doc and she's talking a lot and she's talking about what she's gone through and some of the trauma she's experienced. But just getting to know her as a person and then going back and listening to even the first records and then the mid-period records and the newest or the last record, there's a fullness to it that I couldn't have gleaned from just listening to her without knowing about her. All the music came to life in a very kind of authentic way. So it was a pretty great experience. So I spent a lot of time with

Joan Baez's music leading up to the conversation that you'll hear today. And it was an honor and I was nervous about it because she's talked about her life. A lot of people ask her the same questions. And I'll just tell you this as somebody who talks to people that have a public narrative as much as I do, that one of the tricks is that I know what people want, what they always ask her. They always ask her about Bob Dylan. They always ask her about Martin Luther King. So how do I sort of sideline that a little bit to kind of get another place with her? And ultimately what happened was she was so kind of straightforward that we just ended up having a good time. And sometimes, despite whatever information I may get from a guest, that just being in the same room with them and having that back and forth, that kind of symbiotic engagement of conversation

and knowing that she was having a pretty good time. And for me, that's what I come away from this interview with is that I know that Joan had fun and she told me so after we finished. She was great. It's so exciting. And I can't stress this enough in terms of what I do to actually get to know these people as much as I can in the hour plus, hour or so time that I get to spend with. They just become just people. The myths are brought down from on high in the cultural imagination, in my imagination, just down to my level, which is just a guy in a renovated garage talking on a couple of microphones. And it was really, it was fun. We had some laughs. She told a couple of funny stories and I just was very charmed by the whole thing. I've had this thing

on my mind. I've heard people be critical and, you know, and I've made fun probably in the past myself. I still see people out in the world on the street, outdoors wearing masks or in, in big areas where, uh, it's probably not that much of a threat wearing masks. And, and I don't know what it is about people that are like, what the fuck are they doing? Why are they doing that? I remember primarily Asian people even long before COVID wearing masks, and it was a little disconcerting. But the truth is, who cares? Why is it your problem?

If someone's wearing a mask outside because that's their choice that makes them feel safe, a lot of people do a lot of things to make themselves feel safe. You have certain types of boots, maybe certain types of underwear, maybe a hat. There's a million things that people do either superstitiously or not so superstitiously to make themselves feel safe or more comfortable in whatever their life is, whether it's outdoors or indoors. And it's like, you know, just shut the fuck up. If people want to wear their masks, it's just part of life now. Whether you believe that they need to or not, if it makes that person feel comfortable, so be it. Relax.

It's not your problem. Just let people be. Why can't people just let fucking people be? Isn't that what that used to, wasn't that the whole idea of this place? To live the life you want to live, to make the choices you want to make if they're within the law and within the understanding of how society works. I'm like, Jesus, can't people mind their own fucking business? Anyway, enough. Let me share with you now this conversation I have with Joan Baez. As I said earlier, there's a documentary out.

It's called Joan Baez, I Am a Noise. Go to joanbaezdocumentary.com to find out where it's playing near you. And now you can sit back or lay back or walk or whatever you're doing and enjoy my conversation with the amazing Joan Baez. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the I'm-too-small-for-this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies

starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Are you tired of talking about yourself yet? Never. Okay. Never. It's ongoing? It's ongoing since birth.

Well, it's funny because the last three days, I get nervous before I talk to people. And I watch the film. And then I started at the first album. Did you really? I did. Because I've heard most of them before. But after seeing the movie and then hearing your reflections on these different periods in time and then going back to those records, it's different. Because before I saw the movie, I don't know that I really knew you, right?

So now I know you and I'm like, oh, this was that album. It was a rough time for her. She talked about it. Oh, this was that album. It was a rough time for her. Yeah. She talked about it. Yeah.

But what I was thinking is that from the beginning, you know, given, like, I don't know how you're handling, you know, the reveal in the movie. I would hate to consider what, you know, what comes up in the last third of the movie about your trauma as a spoiler. Yeah, we don't spoil it. You don't. Somebody said the other day, well, what do you do if somebody asks you directly about blah, blah, blah? And I said, oh, I answer indirectly. Really? So you're considering that you want to? I just don't want to be trite and overstated.

And so in the film, it goes as far as I go speaking about it. Not the same. Right. We wanted to make a film that I would call Honest Legacy. Yeah. And wanted to include as much as we possibly could. Right. On every level.

And wanted to find a way that that traumatic stuff doesn't overshadow everything. Oh, so that's why you kind of waited. You kind of talked, alluded to it. Yeah, I think that's clever. I mean, this film was made in a very clever way. Yeah. And that's part of it, the breadcrumbs, you know. Yeah, I think that's clever. I mean, this film was made in a very clever way. Yeah. And that's part of it, the breadcrumbs, you know. Yeah.

Because I was wondering about that. Because, like, you know, you kind of start alluding to it early on in the movie. I'm like, oh, what happened? Yeah, yeah. No, it's a clever piece of work. And it's also how we got there was starting off to do a film about the last tour. You know, even if it wasn't going to be the last one. Yeah.

It's what do I do with myself next kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So, and then at a certain point, I gave them the key to the storeroom. I'd never been in there. Yeah, what is that store? I thought like this is interesting. She's got a museum ready to happen. But it's literally, it looks like a vault.

It is a vault. And when I think, you know, and Karen gave, literally, I said, okay, do it. I mean, and I knew I wouldn't have any say. That was the first time you'd been in that place? I had never been in it before. Well, who was managing it? A commercial place. No, but I mean, who was putting the stuff in there?

Oh, okay. Well, first of all, my mom's stuff saved everything. Yeah saved all of the letters, all those little tapes, all the pictures. That you gave to her? That I sent them. Yeah. Okay. And then my dad saved everything. You know, he was a camera buff when he was 10. Right. So by the time we came around, he was well into it in eight millimeters and Polaroids and all that stuff. So he had saved that. And then all of the tapes, the singing tapes, the therapy tapes and all of that. The therapy tapes.

Now, who was recording your therapy sessions? My therapist. Oh, no, I did. I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you could listen later? Yeah, so I could see what the hell happened during that session. Sure.

Yeah, because you're in sort of like you can get into a zone. That is correct, yeah. So it was all in there, and you just – do you feel like part of the revelation to you? Like was that something you were trying to keep away from yourself? No. No? No, it's something I want to keep away from the public. I never talked about it.

Never talked about it. But I mean the storage space itself. Oh, the storage space itself. Did that represent a past that you? No, it just represented. I didn't want to have to deal with that. Literally. Let me tell you something, Mark.

I thought a storage unit was somewhere you put your lampshades. Sure. And old bureaus. Oh, no. Yeah, not at all. The people put everything in there. Apparently. And it's very daunting.

Are you going to, why don't you have an archivist go in there? First of all, they wouldn't want to hear this stuff any more than we did in the film. No, but don't you want the— Oh, no, no. We have an archivist doing different sections, the different parts of it. Are you going to give it to an institution? You know what? I don't really care.

Sure. My assistant cares. I said, you know what? Chances are with global warming, we're not going to be here long enough for somebody to consider an archive. I know. When people keep seeing, you know when people say on the news or anywhere, it's like, well, history, we'll see.

It's like, I don't know if history. There's not going to be history. I mean, what's the matter with people? I don't know. I don't know what's the matter with them. You know, I don't know that knowing is any better. No, it's a balancing act. For me, denial is your friend.

Sure. Because it keeps you from just falling off the cliff. From screaming and crying all day. Exactly. Screaming and crying. And then for a period of time, you have to translate screaming and crying into some kind of positive activity. Some kind of, you know, and I talk about it when a kid says, well, what can I do? Yeah.

And kind of, you know, and I talk about it when a kid says, well, what can I do? And I think a lot of things. We're just not going to have the big movement at the moment that makes us feel as though, hey, you know, we really can do this together. That doesn't exist right now. It doesn't. Does he think it exists anymore? I mean, what has to happen? I don't know.

I don't know the answer to that because we never could have dreamed up this scenario. Well, people were speculating. You know, I mean, yeah, I guess we couldn could have dreamed up this scenario well i well people were speculating you know i mean yeah i guess we couldn't have dreamed it up but i like when you were younger it did seem that you were part of uh an activist youth that actually facilitated change that's correct and that's yeah because there was a fewer tv stations and no phones that's part of it and and music was a smaller business in a way and And also music, whether it was coincidental or not, it was a 10-year period of unbelievable talent. That's right. And people are waiting for that to happen again, and it probably won't. So we have to create whatever's going to happen in that space.

Or would we even recognize it? Would we know it? I mean, there's probably some talented people in different pockets. There are talented people doing talented things. They, from what I hear, who get known at a certain level, are willing to talk about certain things, but they're not really, I don't think, interested in taking risks, dealing with civil disobedience, all stuff you really have to do to make social change. It's not going to happen. And also the sort of the bad guys, the right, the fascists have now appropriated all the language of the left.

Yeah. Listen, there is a book by George Lakoff. Yeah, I know that book. Yeah, okay. Don't think of an elephant. Yes. You know, the right knows how to talk. We don't. Yeah. I mean, bless his heart. Because. Don't Think of an Elephant. Yes. You know, the right knows how to talk. We don't.

Yeah. I mean, bless his heart. Because we're trying to get everyone to agree. We're trying to get a point across. So that's like 15 minutes of blather. Nobody will remember. And this jackass says, build a wall. Lock her up.

Boom. And it's done. He doesn't have to talk anymore. It's easy. We can repeat it over and over again. It's a chance. And it's done. He doesn't have to talk anymore. It's easy.

We can repeat it over and over again. It's a chance. Well, like when I was watching the movie and I was thinking like, you know, given your childhood and some of the things you were dealing with that were nebulous. Like, I mean, you kind of allude to the idea that you knew you had psychological issues early, right? That there was some sort of talk about, you know, drifting into different personalities. Well, earlier, I mean, I'd never seen those letters either. We think Joanie has some psychological problems, and I'd never seen those doctors. Really? They didn't tell you?

Mm-mm. I mean, I knew I had some problems. I didn't know anybody had written that about them. To your parents. I mean, the movie is a learning experience for me. You know, that about. To your parents. I mean, the movie is a learning experience for me. Yeah.

I had no idea the extent, for instance, that my son had suffered. I mean, I knew he had. And we've been very smart and talked and been to therapists and referees and reached a level that has transformed our lives. In terms of growing up with you as a mother. Yeah. Yeah. And just sitting on top of that little rock saying, but mom was out trying to save the world. And you see this little kid sitting there in his little puffy jacket. So for me, it's a gut punch. And what do I do next? Same with the

sisters in a way, not as profoundly painful, but they never said that stuff to me. Yeah. I mean, the sort of ego and sort of competition between you and Mimi was like, it's brutal. Yep. But when you were a kid, like the idea that you would, because like I'm trying to figure out like, just because of the way my brain works, I don't know if your brain works, is that it seems to me that the music you gravitated towards early on, which defines you, was incredibly sad music. Yeah. Yeah, it was. And the interviewers, when I was like 22 or something, why are you singing all those sad

ballads? Yeah. Well, I didn't know. You know, I didn't know. But they were probably keeping you sane. Thank you very much. They were playing the guitar and finding a way to interact with people, which was by covering my face with my hair and having a guitar between me and the people. Yeah.

I was making my safe zone. Yeah, and also the tone of that music. I've noticed it recently just in dealing with grief that there is a frequency of music that will enable you to hold that sadness. I mean, it's not just the blues, but a lot of the folk ballads and a lot of the struggle music was a way to rise above sadness. Sure. Yeah. And like, I have to assume, do you, that that was why it was so compelling?

I don't. You don't think so? You know, I mean, I'm thinking when we look back and there was more trouble than I knew in my childhood. I didn't know that. So it's reflecting that, I'm sure. But it's also, as you're suggesting, keeping me alive, keeping me going.

It was both. And as fame came along, there was both. There were both things. There was stage fright and freak out before I went on stage. And then afterwards, it was some identity, and people appreciated me, and I started to find my footing. Yeah.

But when you look in the childhood thing, like when you were doing drawings and you're trying to sort of – you were disassociating, right? On some level. Well, but everybody does to some level. I mean, daydream is at one end of the spectrum. Sure, yeah. And other personalities is the other end of the spectrum.

You know, there are other ends of that spectrum. Yeah. And one of the things about the film that's been really, really, really gratifying, and I wasn't counting on, I didn't do it for this purpose, but that all of the traumas that people have, somehow or other, so far, this film has given them a way, a lot of a way to talk about it the way they had not been able to. I mean, moms have said that. Yeah. Kids have said that. She, you know, one kid, my mom hasn't been able to deal with this stuff. And now she, you know, she finds a way.

So that to me is some kind of icing on the cake that I can do that. Of course. But it seems to me like, because I'm sort of the same way. I've started talking about like some trauma that I, you know, that I kind of knew in my brain. But there is sort of a spectrum of how we prioritize trauma emotionally. I mean, some of it you obviously survive with, and you may not know the impact until later, but you also don't want to live in relation to it.

Don't identify as a big problem. Yeah, or see yourself as a victim. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, or see yourself as a victim. Exactly. Exactly. One of the poems, it says, I wanted to transcend survival.

Yeah. You know, I don't want to be in that, but I mean, I have. Somebody asked the other night, well, it's in the film, what's the best decade of your life? And no question, it's right now. Is it? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And then I thought for years that the word happy, you know, somebody asked the other night, where is it now? How do you feel now? I waited a second and said, I guess I'm happy.

What the fuck? I didn't think that would happen to me. I'm the same way. I'm like, what is all this talk about happiness? Try it out, you know. What do you got to do? Let it all go? You know, there's a thing about forgiveness. One of my Buddhist friends says,

you can forgive a little bit and feel a little bit better, or forgive a lot, feel a lot better. You can forgive everything and be free. Huh. Isn't that a bitch? But I mean, but the act of forgiveness, you know, in the full spectrum of transgressions that you're mad about or hurt about.

I mean, you know, to really forgive, it's not a mental activity, right? Well, somebody asked also in one of the Q&As, how do you forgive? And I said, a little bit at a time. It's that thinking we have to just have forgiven, boom. And not necessarily that simple at all. Yeah. Yeah, because you've got to let it go. Right?

And that's hard, yeah. And if you have a certain type of brain, you kind of want to go back to those resentments, just have a little fuck you in you. Yep. Sure. those resentments just have a little fuck you in you. Yep. Sure.

And the more you're able to let go of the fuck you, the freer you are in my experience. I think that's true. And I think age helps with that. Yes, it does. Because if you want to be a fuck you old person. You're going to look like one. Yeah, that's right.

I know a few. It doesn't age well. It doesn't become me. Yeah, they's right. I know a few. It doesn't age well. It doesn't become me. Yeah, they're holding on to it, man. But, like, I'm curious about that scene, like, you know, how, just to go back, because I don't know a lot about that, like, Boston, where you started, is really, you know, where a lot of the folk scenes started. Yep. Yeah, I mean, it was, I think New York was a little later even.

I think maybe it was. Yeah. And also it was Boston, but in some ways the center of it was Cambridge. Cambridge. Was Passimes there or was it before that? No, Passimes is what came after Club 47. Okay, Club 47. Yes, the woman, Betsy, just took the whole thing, Club 47, and moved it across

town, and it became Passimes. Right. But she kept up the tradition of the folks, you know, wandering troubadours came through. It's admirable. Yeah, but those people, I mean, because I don't know, like my dad, you know, had a Pete Seeger songbook, and I don't know that a lot of people, or even me, have him in full context. But he was like mind-blowing, right? He was mind-blowing. And he, for me, was one of the turning points in my life. Yeah.

You met him or just the music? Early on, I do not remember the concert. But my parents, of course, were panicked that all I listened to was rhythm and blues. Right. What's a little girl? Yeah, yeah. So my aunt took me to was rhythm and blues. Right. What's a little girl? Yeah, yeah. So my aunt took me to see Pete Seeger. I must have been 16.

And apparently, that's what happened. It was like a good vaccine, and it took. And from then on, it was Pete Seeger and Odetta and Harry Belafonte. And I hid the Kingston Trio at the back of my record pile because that was very uncool. That commercial people in your house, you know. As a folky? Yeah, as a folky. Yeah.

I guess that folk music was, it wasn't initially a movement, right? But it did seem to lead into civil rights. I guess it always was that. I mean, there wasn't the songwriting phenomenon that happened. It was old stuff. Yeah. I'm trying to remember the first ones long before Dylan and that. But it was people singing old folk songs.

Yeah. It certainly was for me. And I was ridiculous. I mean, I was ridiculous. It was supposed to come from your great-grandfather to your grandfather. And I never read anything about it. Yeah. I never took notes.

I just had to learn it directly. It just moved you. Yeah, it moved me, and I was a real pain in the ass with it. You know, people wanted to set up a stage for me, all nice, put flowers here. And I said, no, we've got to have black on the stage. I don't want any props. I don't want to be commercialized. That was so difficult.

It's got to be just raw, bare, dark. Yeah, true. Yeah. Bare bones. Authentic. Yeah. Who were the people in that scene that you were playing with, like around? Was Fahey around there?

No. No. No. That was a little more progressive and a little bit later. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of them are obscure. Yeah. Relatively obscure.

Eric Von Schmidt was there. He never was a huge star. I think Dylan referenced him in a song, right? Probably, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Von Schmidt.

My sister Mimi. Yeah. My locals. I mean, Debbie Green. I learned so much stuff from her. She and I were going to BU. I went for- I went to BU. Did you really? Yeah. I went for six weeks and then had

to lie to my parents for the rest of the time. For a whole semester, I was sneaking up to my boyfriend's room at Adam's house, Harvard. He was at Harvard? Yeah. But like, were there old blues guys coming through too?

Yes, there were. They might have ended up more in Boston because by then Boston was kind of more mainstream. And then New York and Gertie's Folk City. And then you went down there? A couple of times. Oh, but it really wasn't part of your story. Not really. A little bit.

A little bit. That's where I met Bob was at was at Gertie's. Right. Folk City. And who was around there? Von Ronk was around there. Von Ronk was around, yeah. You know who was around was Hugh Romney, who is now Wavy Gravy. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And I met him in a club, and he was doing poetry. I mean, he was. Yeah, yeah. And he was. Ernest poetry, like straight up... Yeah, yeah. Earnest poetry, like straight up? Yeah, yeah. He was making it up

as he went along. It was about the stars and the sky. Like beatnik stuff. Absolute beatnik stuff. Yeah. And there was somebody else with him

and he was just having an on about the stars and trombones and instruments or whatever. And somebody said to me, sing to it.

So I started singing. It was one of my cooler moments in my life. Riffing with Wavy Gravy at the poetry scene? Yeah, before he was Wavy. So when did you start,

how many records? Well, you were pretty huge right away, right? Well, that's the trick of it, yeah. It was an overnight. It was. It was my wonderful Club 47, $15 a night. That was a raise. Yeah.

And two nights a week. It had been only one. So I was busy getting rich, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sitting around learning folk songs. And so what was your question? I don't remember. When did it become sort of international?

When did you become a phenomenon? I guess folk, you were there when it became a full international phenomenon. Well, the women who ran Club 47, it had been a jazz club. It was a jazz club. And then they saw this coming, and they took one night a week to make it a folk club. And then that went two nights a week, and then I don't even know if they had any jazz by the time I was well into it. Because they saw the wave coming, and they were smart enough to get on. It was all very earnest.

Very earnest, yes. And it's interesting because it was all happening in the shadow of pretty dramatic rock music evolving as well, right? Not yet? Not quite yet. Oh, it's because it's the mid-60s. It was a cross, kind of a crossover. It would cross over to the boys from England coming over here. Right, right. But that was later because I keep forgetting that this is like early to mid-60s.

Yeah. So it was still pretty much pop rock music. Pretty much. I guess it developed into pop rock, but it was just folk. It's so weird. Well, I mean, not the folk developing, but alongside of folk, the popular music was rock and roll. Yeah. So you guys were like doing this almost ancient thing.

Last time I sang, Upper State, New York, and Pete Seeger came to the show. He just kept shaking his head saying, why do you need those drums? I said, you know, I get it, Pete, but some of us have moved on. He also said this great thing is people are always saying, well, who are the young groups you listen to? I don't know enough of them to really make any sense of an answer. And I said, they asked Pete. He said he doesn't really listen to music until he's forced to when he takes his grandchildren to the ice skating rink. He's a real purist.

So he only heard it when they were skating around on those bad speakers? Yeah. Yeah. So when does it become, like, when do you feel, because, I mean, you've mentioned in some of this stuff I've seen this guy, you know, Ira Sandpearl. Yeah. And I don't know really anything about him. And I know that, you know, you had a Quaker upbringing to a certain degree. But when does it become apparent, you know, once you become sort of a star in this world, when does it become apparent that the social responsibility activism?

To me, it came way early. I mean, I think it's worth noting that the first song I really, it clicked for me. I mean, I sang a lot and I loved it. It was Emmett Till. And so I was 15 or 16. And that song,

I was sort of beginning to find where I was super comfortable. And also mentions in the film that I had, you know, you had What Have They Done to the Rain. It's a very gentle, you know, protest song. And Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream. And those were current. But it wasn't until Dylan that we, and in the film, it says that really made sense whether they made sense or not, because they don't necessarily. But it's something that we were

really, really driven to have in our arsenals with those songs. Yeah. I mean, even like on the last record you did in 2018, that song, The President Sang Amazing Grace. Yeah. That's like right in the zone. Yeah. You know, and I don't know the person who wrote that. And you singing it was the first time I heard it recently.

This is like two days ago. I don't know the person who wrote that. And you singing it was the first time I heard it recently. This is like two days ago. And, you know, it kind of moved me in the way that those original songs do. Well, it's an extraordinary song. I mean, it's sort of channeled from somewhere. And it just. But it comes right out of that continuum. Yes, it does. Of real, you know,

activist music, folk music. So, most of this happened around you and Dylan when it becomes sort of activated? No, no, no. I had my first

little sit-in by myself when I was 16 in school because there was going to be an air raid drill and we were all supposed to, you don't get be an air raid drill and we were all supposed to, you don't get into your desks anymore,

we were all supposed to go home. And some parents were coming to pick up their kids. So my father's a physicist and I said, how long is it going to take a missile to get from Moscow to Palo Alto High School? And it wasn't really realistic having us go home and eat survival biscuits or whatever the plan was. So I stayed in school.

I just stayed in the class. They said, what are you doing? And I said, I'm protesting this nonsense that you're allowing these kids or encouraging these kids to believe they're going to be okay. If we start a war, they're going to be safe and they're not. So did that come from just a childish impulse or sort of a pacifist impulse? No, pacifist. And that's something you learned growing up?

Yes, that is something I learned. And Ira was the, they call him first day teacher, Sunday school teacher, basically, when I was that age, and he began the process of teaching me. At what Sunday school? They have it. They call it First Day School from the Quakers. Okay. And, you know, they find a room.

He would call it Sermons on the Pavement because we didn't have a room. But he's a Jewish guy, right? Yes, he was a Jewish guy. But he was teaching at this Quaker school. Of course. Listen, for the Quakers, there's no. Oh, yeah. It doesn't matter.

No. Just as long as the message is correct? Yeah. As long as you don't kill anybody. You can just come in. Anybody can come. And so that was the first time. And then as, so that was in your heart all the way through.

It was, yeah. From when I was very little, actually, it was. And when you, because you sort of delivered Dylan to the world. It's a painful birth. And I know you talk about it a lot, but I don't see, because I didn't live through that time, I don't really know what the electricity and the culture, you know, you all were creating. and the culture you all were creating, that obviously the two of you were speaking for an entire, not the entire culture, but certainly for the young people to kind of figure out a way how to have some language and action around what was a civil rights nightmare,

and the wars are about to come. And you were both aware of that. Yes, I think so. I think so. And I didn't write songs until I was 10 years in. So it was God on My Side. That was the first wow. Yeah.

You know. Yeah. The first wow. And you could still sing it. I mean, it's interesting because now a youth, the youth, or whatever was gun control, and they're singing Dylan songs because they haven't been replaced yet. There are no anthems to replace Dylan. Isn't that wild? Yeah, it is wild.

Because a lot of times I think, is there nobody writing this stuff or is there nobody with the sort of magical gravitas that those songs had. Probably a little bit more number two, you just said. Yeah. Because there was a lot of charisma banging around during those 10 years. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And when you guys played together, I mean, it seems that, well, certainly him,

but you were pretty careful not to associate or identify politically other than, I mean, other than, you know, this is wrong. Well, no. I mean, was I left wing or right wing? That's the whole point. Right. You're not a wing. Right. You're right there.

I would get in trouble. I mean, Argentina, they throttled me because I said a beating with a hose is the same whether it's a right wing with a hose or a left wing with a hose on the balconies kids falling over the balcony furious because i wasn't sticking to their program well that's sort of happening now uh around israel a little bit in in terms of how that's understood you know and that you know that you can't have like you're talking about just, you know, people outside of government influence or government control that are the victims of this whole thing. And there's a lot of people that are quick to identify everybody as being part of the monsters that are governing the situation. Yeah, people can't help themselves. And, you know, we try to make some sense out of it.

And, I mean, I have at least heard over and over again from the press that Hamas is not the West Bank, Hamas is not Gaza, Hamas is not, you know, the Palestinian people. But it's hard for people to grasp that if that's how their black and white mindset. And it's the same with the Israeli government. I mean, they don't represent all Jews. No, they don't. No, please, I hope not.

Some of my best friends are Jews. They got nothing to do with Netanyahu. Netanyahu, I call him. Yeah. There was something very heartbreaking about the moment in the film where after whatever you and Dylan went through, in the film where after whatever you and Dylan went through, and then you

sort of kind of come back around after he's become bigger than life, and you were kind of, you know, sidelined. It made me very sad. Oh, me too. It was horrible. You put it very specifically, I think you said, that it was really

there were just all these guys around. It was a boys club, and everybody was doing drugs. I didn't do my Quaaludes stint until way later. So this was right after he won Electric-ish? He went, yeah. He was in the process of doing it. Yeah, with the band. Yeah, and for him, I always have to give him credit that he did that.

He knew there was going to be this wall of fire coming from people who didn't want him to. Well, you know, I was probably more in that camp than I was open-minded. What's he doing with that electric guitar? Horrors, you know. But the purity of like, you know, it's very funny because

you know, I tried to get, you know, I don't know Bob Dylan. Nobody does. Is that what you're going to say? Yeah. But I tried to, I wanted to get him on my thousandth episode. I thought, like, look, I've interviewed presidents.

I'm going to get this guy. So I'm like, you know, I'm sending letters. I'm going through the bookers. And finally someone tells me to call Rosen, you know, Jeff. Yeah. And I just get on the phone with him. I had met him once before. I'm like, look, it's real important.

It's my thousandth episode. And I think it would the phone with him. I had met him once before. I'm like, look, it's real important. It's my thousandth episode. And I think it'd be amazing conversation if me and Bob and I go on and on. I go, what are the chances of that happening? And Rosen goes, zero. Yeah. And Rosen's the nicest guy in the world. Yeah. He's been with him forever.

And I said to him, I said, well, why don't you come on? He's like, are you kidding? Why do you think I have this job? I don't talk to anybody. But I just have a hard time, you know, because it seems to me that in some ways, you know, looking at the breadth of your work, that you knew who you were pretty early on-ish as a voice and as a singer. And it seems that when you met him, he was like this weird sponge of like, it seemed like a fairly sweet guy. And then like, you know,

he just kept letting things in that built him and built him. I mean, there were moments where like, you know, I can see the way he plays with his hat and it's like, well, that's Ramblin' Jack. I mean, he did. Yeah. You know what I mean?

That's funny. I never thought of that. Yeah. Did you ever watch that doc on Ramblin' Jack? No. Oh, my God. It was almost like Dylan took his whole personality to figure out how to charm audiences.

But, you know, I'm not. As you're speaking, I have this great image in my mind from Rolling Thunder. Yeah. us this beautiful book of photographs. One of them is Jack Elliott's bare ass leaving the one room on the bus. Nobody even noticed. Well, that, well, like you just did an event the other night in New York with Jane Fonda. And so you guys are okay now? Yeah, and we didn't even know each other. We didn't know each other, but she was so firmly in the left camp with Hayden. Yeah, back in the day.

Back in the day, yeah. And I was really, I mean, if we'd go get arrested or something, I was in the pacifist camp. No matter what. Yeah, no matter what. So it didn't give us a whole lot of ground, Jane and me.

It was very sweet. She stood up at the Q&A the other night and she said, we weren't friends. And I said, it's not too late. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. So, you know, we have become friends. She's tough. She's tough, broad, and I really admire her.

Yeah. But I mean, all that came around when you went to Hanoi, right? I mean, you went over there like that was a different time. Like, it's weird because I was trying to think about a precedent, that precedent in terms of what happens now. And occasionally, you know, Sean Penn will drop himself into a war zone. And it seemed like then, again, because the communication environment was smaller, that, you know, it was not necessarily seen as a self-promoting journey to go give voice to something you believed in. Right, right. And even around, you know, draft resistance.

resistance. I mean, that's stuff like, I guess what I'm trying to not even figure out, but it seemed like everybody was just doing folk music and then everyone was dragged into standing up for something. Yeah, good. It's good. Nice to put pressure on people for that. Well, who else was going to do it? I mean, because, you know, it seemed like there was one journey going towards, you know, psycho astronauts, like, you know, drugs and just pushing the limit and taking the blues and turning them inside out and occasionally taking folk music and making it pop music. But in terms of the voice, and that's got to come directly from Seeger and Odetta and Harry Belafonte, right? I remember hearing about Pete that he has somebody like 60 Minutes, whatever it was back then, supposed to do a thing with him, and he's on the roof repairing the shingles. Yeah. He said, I'll be down when I'm down.

And I thought, oh, this is my guy. You know, I thought, oh, this is my guy. You know, that was the first thing that really took me about him. Yeah. And that was the path I wanted to follow. Now, when you like when you got involved with the civil rights movement, I mean, that, you know, that's that's like they were all happening almost simultaneously. I mean, I don't guess when that was happening that the war in Vietnam was fully realized yet, right, at the beginning? No. I remember in 1964. Yeah.

Before that. Yeah. We were sending our, quote, advisors in. And I got a letter from President Johnson. Right. Would I be interested in leading young Democrats for Johnson? And my, honestly, I was such a snoot. Yeah.

I wrote back and I said, if he took these visors out of Vietnam, I'd consider it. Oh, you're doing global policy. That's good. Yeah. Right off the bat. Yeah. And did you get a letter back? I've probably got a thank you very much back.

But who were, like, what were the organizing sort of factions back then? I know that your husband was, you know. Draft resistance, yeah. A public draft resistor, and that was the point, right? Yeah, and that made sense for me, aside from the fact that I fell in love with David. Yeah. Okay, this is about risk again.

Right. I mean, these guys are putting the whole thing on the line. Yeah. And that's why when I'm saying I admire these guys, I think I find places where I go, and it's something that courage is contagious and they, you know, they fill me with it and I'm, you know, able to go to jail and all of that stuff because of somebody else's courage. Yeah. But, but it's interesting because the, the direct

channel that you become is that, you know, when you, when you are sort of engaged with those people that you're saying have courage, which you do as well, is that that changes the meaning of the folk music. Oh, so you're back to music. No, no, no. No, I'm not. I'm just saying that your presence there was not coincidental. You were in that world because of music. But what I was making the connection was that once folk music became activated for current issues, that you become a representative of those issues, even if the songs don't speak to them. Exactly. Exactly, Mark.

That's what I tried. It's not about the content. It's about the context. Right. For instance, probably Woodstock or one of the, wherever it was. And I said, you know, we made a protest song out of green grass of home because all I said, this is my husband's favorite song. He's in jail at X for how many years because of X.

And then I sing a country and Western song. And it's become a political, you know, a political. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Your version of that song is probably the best. Oh, thank you. Those Nashville records

are kind of like, I'm kind of fascinated with them. Oh boy, those were sessions, the early ones. Oh my God, Jerry Reed, Pete Drake.

Yep. What's that guy's name, Pig? Pig, I don't remember his last name. Robbins, Pig Robbins, is that it?

I don't know, I'll just say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He would play the piano standing with his back to it. Yeah. Oh, really? Yep. He was blind, number one.

But number two, he'd back his bum into the piano and play with his hands looking the other direction. He was a showman. Or not looking the other. He was a showman. They were all showmen. There was a moment, because I had my New York producers from Vanguard, which is basically a company that recorded classical music. And so I was on pins and needles because here I was with these guys. But Dylan had already recorded with them, right?

A couple of them? I don't think so. Oh, not yet? Mm-mm. Okay. No. And anyway, we broke the ice by finally going to—they were leery of this pinko. And I was really leery of these rednecks, you know.

So we went to lunch at some point and Grady Martin, the king of them all, told this joke. And it was really a test to see what my reaction would be. It was some trucker driving through the south and he stops at a steakhouse and he goes in and he orders a steak. And she says, well, is that a rump steak, or would you like a flank? He said, just a steak. And she goes at it again. Would you like?

He says, listen, just cut off his horns and wipe his ass and bring me my dinner. So I go forward, because I thought it was very funny. And then we became friends, and then there was this issue of me being part of the guys, and my New York producer being this intellectual. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's on the other side of the glass, and I'm worrying about what he's going to say next. And at one point he said, I think this needs a little bit of a diminuendo, and there's this silence in the room.

And then Kenny Butchery moves in to the microphone. He says, I believe that's a little tiny window. Ask my producer. Please go home. Well, I mean, I didn't realize until the other day that you covered No Expectations by the Stones. Yeah. So those records were done because David liked country music so much. One of them.

One of them was for him. Yeah. Yeah. But that was the natural evolution, wasn't it? It was. It must have changed the way you looked at the music. You know what? I think in spite of his being a little bit stiff,

that Maynard Solomon, who ran the Vanguard Records, saw it coming. I was going to run out of traditional folk songs. And, you know, he kind of veered into country and western, which was convenient with David because that's what he loved. And then any day now, it was all Dylan's material. Right. But outside of sort of strange English and Gaelic roots, I mean, folk music is country and blues, right?

Yeah. Sure. I mean, we can include it that way, not worry about it. But going back a little bit, how did you get involved? Because you do have courage. I mean, you're down there marching.

So it's not, and I know there were other celebrities who were not necessarily regular people. Not big risk takers. Right. But it became a risk. I mean, it was a risk.ers. Right. Yeah. But it became a risk. I mean, it was a risk. Oh, sure.

Yeah, sure. I mean, certainly after those three were killed. Yeah. I mean, you must have realized in that moment that no one is really safe down there. Oh, of course. Yeah. And how did you initially get involved with that? King would ask me.

I mean, we had a report. You knew him before, you and Martin Luther King. Yeah, I did. And then he knew the Institute for Nonviolence. He became friends with Ira. So we would take his people. So that was Ira's institute? The Institute of Nonviolence.

It was mine. Yes, I opened it with Ira, yeah. And I opened it because I had learned so much from him. And then I thought, you know, if they're a group of people, we're probably going to learn more. That was really the inception of it. And just the introduction, the notion that that was a relevant and new idea, you know, active nonviolence as political protest, it's kind of, it's mind-blowing. And it almost feels kind of, it's mind-blowing and it almost feels kind of, not dated,

but you're not... That's because the only figure we really latch onto until King was Gandhi. Yeah. Yeah, that's dated. You know, and then there are all these things going on around the world. If they don't have the charismatic leader, you don't hear about them. This is a problem right now, Joan.

Where the fuck are they? I don't hear about them. Well, this is a problem right now, Joan. Where the fuck are they? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's like, I think that, you know, sadly, you know, that the evolution of whatever happened in the 60s with the boomers that became rich, that, you know, the self has become more important than the civic. It has. And when I look back, I really want to say that I don't think we can take away from the victories.

I mean, sitting at a lunch counter like that and that courage, that determination, that nonviolence, it's part of us and it's a part of the society. And even if we have fallen back way back, that's there for us to live up to again, one form or another. And that, you know, my advice, in a sense, to all the young singers and all the young kids, what can I do? What can I do? What keeps coming to my mind is whatever you do, go make trouble. Go make good trouble. Yeah.

Go make good trouble. Go make good trouble. Yeah. Go make good trouble. Yeah. I mean, right, good trouble because, you know, again, through appropriation of 60s radicals methods, you know, you have almost a coup at the fucking Capitol building, you know, that they're framing as a protest. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It all gets very tricky. I don't have much hope. No, I don't either. Oh, I'm glad to hear you say it because most people say, where do you get all your hope? I said, you know, I don't really have that much. You've got to do what you've got to do anyway. Yeah. That's it.

Somebody said, I think it was Ann Patchett, hope is a practice. And I don't practice it very well, but I do try. Right. Because being a caustic pessimist is not really helpful to anybody. No, and you're not, you get slowly, you're uninvited to parties. That's okay. That part's okay.

I don't want to, you know, bum them out. Don't invite Joan. Again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when did Buddhism become part of your life? Let's see.

Probably, let's see, maybe 20 years ago. Oh, that's it. Recent. But you see this little crossover from Quaker meeting because it's all about silence and meditation. Yeah. So the Buddhist friends I have, that was, you know, that's where I was.

It was comfort zone for me. There was introspection and openness and forgiveness and that was all Quaker lingo as well. Sure. So you had the practice but you didn't have the sort of maybe you didn't have the big nothing available. I didn't have the Kuan Yin sitting on my

desk there. There's a great Kuan Yin, a little poster. She's sitting there all peacefully and it says time to let go of that shit. It could go for anybody. Kuan Yin, a little poster. Yeah. She's sitting there all peacefully. Yeah. And it says, time to let go of that shit. It could go for anybody at any time. So after, you know, the big event in D.C., which, you know, takes you into another sphere in terms of what you represent with Martin Luther King. I mean, did you feel the weight of responsibility?

I mean, was there a part of you that was sort of like, oh, my God. You know, I just wonder in watching the documentary that the arc of what you were part of and then also what you were seen as and also was, did you feel like, how do I keep this up? you were seen as, and also, did you feel like, how do I keep this up? Well, you know, in the film, when it says, I feel like I lead a movement, I love that. I'm going to start a movement, you know, saying that I think people would follow, but I have to be ready to go if anybody shows up or not. And that's more the feeling of this little person and absolute determination. I don't think I felt it as, felt it as a weight on my shoulders. I mean, there's certainly challenges.

And then at the end of the film, it's saying, I used to feel the world on my shoulders. And my mom said when I was eight, she came and smoothed out my forehead, which was worried. She said, oh, honey, you look as though you have the weight of the world on your shoulders. So I don't really know the answer to the question, but confronted with, would you come into Grenada, Mississippi, and walk these kids to school?

And King's saying, I can't get there until Wednesday. Could you go Monday? That wasn't, oh, what a responsibility. It was, oh, boy, I get to do something meaningful. And you just go. Yeah, I just go. But you didn't have the same anxiety and stage fright around that kind of stuff. No, isn't that interesting?

No. Huh. No. Because it was service in a way. Thank you. Exactly. Right? Hallelujah.

Hallelujah. Hallelujah. But, like, how did you, you know, when they put your husband in jail, you knew he was going to go to jail when you got pregnant,

right? And that was part of the plan? I think we just felt, I mean, a cover of Look Magazine, a peace couple, David and Joan and holding the little baby.

And you'd already been on Time Magazine's cover, right? Yeah. Before? Yeah. A long, long time ago. Yeah. Horrible, ugly picture, but there it is.

I had my priorities and they didn't pay any attention to them. Yeah. It was kind of like the way we thought, the way we thought. People go to jail, people pay a certain price. You know, you risk something and you pay that price. It was a pretty big price. I see by looking at my own letters when I look back in the film. The responsibility of having a child and touring. I was visited by, when Gabe had been born, we were in my little shack. It was a shack. You were living on a commune or where were you? It was a commune.

My house was separate from the main commune. So how many people were wandering around? A lot of people wandering around. And people would come by the house and throw pebbles at the window. I mean, and somebody would show up at the door and say, we're, big sacks of grain, we're going to go and seed

the country. Would you come with us? I mean, fuck no. But they saw me as this one thing, you know? It was all projected onto you. Yeah, it was. And then some lunatic over at the main house, this guy digging a hole and wanting to

bury his boots. Okay, so he's schizophrenic. And they're all saying, can we give you something to eat? Would you like to stay here? And I said to him, would you like to go to the hospital? He said, yes. I can't even imagine that time, man. Just because everyone was, you know, once it got broken open and the youth movement, you know, kind of manifested in all its different ways, they were just untethered.

You know, they're just people wearing sandals. And you add some pretty heavy drugs to that. Yeah. It's New World Order. No kidding. I mean, because by, like, by what, 67, the acid was out. Yeah. Right?

And then there was all the dope. Yep. Wow. And they just show up. They would just show up. Yeah. And you had to deal with that on top of having a kid on top of having a record career and a husband in jail.

You've got some guy burying his boots outside. Plus one day I'm strutting around being a mom and I was going to have a visit from these women. Yeah. And I was not connecting to feminism at all. I was a strong woman, but was not a part of their consciousness yet. And so they came to visit, and I'm busy making tea, and I'd made cookies. Yeah.

And that's not what they wanted to see. All I wanted to talk about was being a housewife. Yeah. I was so enchanted with it. Yeah. They are not hearing about that. Did he have an okay time with prison, or was it hard? No, I think so enchanted with it. They are not hearing about that. Did he have an okay time with prison, or was it hard? No, I think it was hard

for him. I mean, the ones with the Quaker backgrounds, much easier. You've been trained in a different way. David was Fresno Boy of the Year, and the charismatic leadership role and resistance, and I think it was really hard for him in there. It was like

a year and a half or something? It was two years. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so after he comes out, it wasn't necessarily the prison that didn't work, it made it not work out. It was just the idea is you. You said I couldn't do intimacy.

Yeah. I couldn't. I like that look. Can I have a photograph of that look? You and me both, sister. Yeah. Still not great at it. No.

And, you know, at the end of all of my going through the tunnel, coming out, all the therapy, and I'm really grounded and feeling like a human being the first time in my life. And the therapist sort of hints at, well, the next step is you go and find a partner. I said, don't even bring it up. No interest. I'm happy. Why fuck it up? You know, for that next level of intensity.

And I'm happy. about the intimacy when you have experienced some sort of, you know, boundaryless, you know, predation or infiltration of your young spirit is that two things happen is that you want to protect yourself against that at all costs emotionally, but you're also fundamentally codependent. So if you ever even try intimacy, you're going to lose yourself in that other person. Well spoken. Right. Within like 10 minutes, you're like, we'll do whatever you need. Five. Right. Yeah. Yes. And I don't know how to fathom that shit, but I like the point of view that it's like, I'm okay. you know, living in my house by myself. I can be with people, but they don't have to be there all the time.

Right. And, you know, let me make myself perfectly clear. I live alone in my house, but I have a number of people on a two-acre property. So they're my friends, and I can call them if somebody's within shouting distance. So it's different from saying I live alone and being out in some. Yeah. I mean, I have relationships. I'm in a relationship.

But like, you know, at this age I'm at, which is just turned 60, you know, there's some things I'm not going to. You're a squirt. I know. But I do have this feeling that there are some things I'm not going to be able to unfuck. People or things? No, me. No, it's like, you know, I'm not going to be able to unfuck. People or things? No, me. No, it's like, you know, I'm fucked up,

but maybe this is some of it I can live with. If you want to live with it, then don't bother. I mean, that's exactly what I came to with trying to find a, quote, partner. It's definitely a choice. And for a while I would say, and I thought, and who knows, maybe it's true, if I were, you know, I'm really protecting myself

and I got my blinders on. But if somebody passed by and I was drawn to that person, maybe be worth thinking about. Guess what? Nobody's passed by. A lot of people walking out there. And I haven't seen, you know, I haven't allowed myself to see. But also after a certain point when you know who you are, you can't really trust your first instincts, can you? Absolutely.

And they say, now you can get back to normal this. Now you can get back to normal that. But there wasn't any normal. So I'm just getting to it. Yeah. I'm just getting to it. I know. What's it really like to live, you know, in this way?

Like before, there was no before. There's now. So the sort of chronology of you coming to terms with your trauma was really you didn't know why you were so adrift. Like the thing I can't get out of my mind is you talking about the picture of the cover of that one record where you're wearing the goggles. I can't. I cannot. I remember that album in record stores when I was a kid, but then I was like, after you brought it up, I listened to it. And it's weird that that cover of you in the pilot's gear or whatever it was, you were just fucked up.

I was just fucked up, yeah. But I listened to those records. It's a good record. It is a good record. Yeah. But there is like, you can tell that, you know,

something is not holding you together like it was. That your voice is, it remains constant, but there are shifts in tone, you know, throughout all the records.

And some of them are grounded. You know, I can hear the difference between young you and then confident you, a few albums in. And then, like, the national records are strong as hell. But there's a slight difference when I think you become a little lost. Yeah. Because you didn't know really, I mean, who you were as an artist. Yeah, exactly.

And, yeah, and I was, I mean, Quaalude aside, which eventually it was, there was that cavern that I went into and confused. I love the scene of me trying to be hip and groovy with the Amnesty International concert. Oh, with the outfit and jumping around? This is why you're a dope. And you say you don't have courage. You put that in the movie. Well, you know, we have a joke about that.

Yes, I've been in the bomb shelter. Yes, I've been gassed in Latin America. Yes, I've dealt with the Ku Klux Klan. But nothing like the courage it took to do this film with natural light. Well, you look great now, but I mean, we've all had those sort of, you know,

kind of wardrobe, you know, misjudgments. Yep. Yeah. But so what is the, what were the, you know,

like the Quaalude thing, you say, you know, when did that start? I mean, what record are we talking about? Well, that would have been, I don't know what came before that, Goggles cover. Yeah. But it was that, that was the result of it, that album.

So it was right after Diamonds and Rust? I guess so. Yes. Because like Diamonds and Rust is a full-throated. It's a magnificent album. It's a great record Yeah And I wonder if that, you know, that whatever

Because a lot of those songs were yours, right? Yeah And I wonder if that was the beginning of the breakdown after that Well, not because of that No, no, no, no Yes, it was because of the sequences And I mentioned it, but it's only brief in the film. I've been hanging out with my gorgeous tour manager.

Yeah. Who was taking too many drugs, and I didn't even figure that out. Yeah. He's saying, oh, come on, this record company isn't good enough. Let's go here. And then it all fell apart, the manager I'd had for years. Oh, so your infrastructure, yeah got taken out from under you. Yeah.

And then you were just left with... I was just floating for years, but I couldn't imagine what it was. I didn't know what was happening. I mean, I didn't get it that without the management and the machinery, there was no way to get a record sold. Right. And that went on until 35 years ago. And I did three albums, which are obscure and absolutely, I absolutely love them.

That would be what? Speaking of dreams. Okay. Okay, yeah. Recently. And Play Me Backwards? No, Play Me Backwards was before that. I was getting my sea legs under me.

Okay. But Speaking of Dreams was before that. I was getting my sea legs under me. Okay. But speaking of dreams you love. I do. And during the making of that, those three albums or two albums, I literally woke up at night, sat up in bed and thought, why am I making these albums that only my family's going to hear? That's kind of when it, you who, and then I went looking for management. You know, that's kind of when it, yoo-hoo, and then I went looking for management. But aside from that, what's the timeline of you kind of retrieving these memories of your trauma? Oh, you know, I think it started, it started after I hired management, which was 35 years ago.

So that's like around the same time after Speaking of Dreams? Well, I was 50. You do the math. 89, 99, 2000. All right. In that area. So you hired the management and then you got off the drugs? Yeah.

And that literally had been off them for a long time. That was eight years. I don't remember when it started, but it ended when Carter took them off the shelves. And I was so relieved, you know. The Quaaludes were gone. Yeah, I'm still relieved. That's a hell of a drug. You kind of were kind of low to the ground. Who would be?

Yeah. And you were on the Rolling Thunder review all fucked up? Yeah. Yeah, not as fucked up as everybody else, but in my own way. Oh, my God. There is some cocaine watching that. Oh, yeah. Watching those concerts and to see McGuinn.

I mean, I thought his head was going to blow up. It did, and he went to Jesus. He did. That happens. Yeah. Yeah, Jesus is always there. When your head blows up. If you want him, he'll carry your head.

So how did you – so you did go into therapy when you – because in the movie, it doesn't seem like you have a full recollection of what happened. That's correct. Yeah. But enough. It says in there, I can't prove anything. Sure. And I'm not trying to, I can't prove anything. Sure. And I'm not trying to prove anything. But if 20% of what I remember as my own reality is true, then that's enough to have done the difficulties that I spent a lifetime dealing with. And I guess, again, not trying to prove it, but your sister's experience in life.

Mimi's was, yeah. Implied. Yeah, same thing. Yeah. It was only Pauline who went and lived deep in the mountains. She didn't believe any of this stuff or want to deal with it

because she loved my parents. Sure. I didn't, you know. But, you know, you did speak to your dad about it, right? You know, the difficulty and the sadness

is that you love your parents. And how do you figure out knowing that they don't remember things any more than I did. Right. And I wanted to remember my child. I wanted to get at what had made my life, you know, such a misery. It's so many turns. And they didn't want to. So there you're stuck with parents you love who don't know what you're talking about.

And you love them. And at the same time, you know, why did it have to be like this? Why couldn't they be as perfect as we thought they were? Or at least cop to it. But it doesn't seem, in your mind, in how you frame it, was it a singular thing or was it, it wasn't a pattern of? Right here, I get to where I'm not comfortable with details. Sure. But, yeah, it wasn't just one person.

Let's just say that. Okay. Yeah. And so, but you did go to therapy to unearth this stuff. I've been in therapy since I was 16. Right. For different, but, you know, just to help me get to the next airplane.

Yeah. You know, so this is a different, you know, it was a different kind of thing. You knew what you were. I knew what I was going in there to crack the kernel. Right. Yeah. And then you felt like, did you, did that run its course? Well, when people ask me what I'm proud of, you know, aside from the fact that I

communicate with my son, which is number one, you know, it's that I saw the tunnel went in and came out. So when somebody did say, how would you describe yourself? And now out of nowhere came the answer, which was happy. I thought that was so square. It was a load off, I imagine, right? Yeah. But it's nice because it seems that what you're saying, like some people, I guess you as well, get this mindset that therapy is just the rest of your life. Exactly. You know, I had a therapist. They were just friends and a therapist was among us.

I think lunch one day, she said, well, people don't really change. I thought, oh dear, I didn't want to hear that. But at that point, already I had changed, and I challenged her on it. And it can be that you don't change, you just learn how to... You make different choices. You make different choices, and you protect yourself.

I wrote a poem called Phobia, and how you can work with it. It was like a dance partner. But did you feel like, you know, once you came through this tunnel that, you know, you had like your sense of who you were became solid? Yeah. I felt whole and the phobias are gone. Now that's a biggie. Wow. Yeah. And I thought that the last couple records were great. I love the last record.

Whistle Down the Wind? Yeah. It's great. Yeah. And how do you, this is an interesting question because, again, the first time

and only time that I sat in a room with Jeff Rosen was with someone from HBO, Nina Rosenstein. And I was working down the street and she knew him, thought it'd be interesting if I met him. And he told me that like those records of covers that Dylan did for like A World Gone Wrong and a couple other ones, these covers he did. He's like, oh, yeah, I picked all those. Wow.

I didn't know that. Now I'm going to get myself in trouble. But there's this idea that like because, and I'm not saying it's you, but like you're choosing very interesting songs from artists that not everybody knows. Some everybody do. But, you know, you're doing a couple of Tom Waits songs and you do a Joe Henry song. And I have to say my manager himself was instrumental in all of that. Right. Because he has this pile of CDs, and he will go through every single one.

Every single one. And then he'll find a song he thinks will work, and he goes through that. At least, he told me at least 50 times before he would send it to me. So a lot came from there. Some came from me. Some came from me. Some came from my assistant, Nancy, who listens to a lot of music. Oh, I see. So it's kind of a, not a group effort, but people in your life are like, have you heard this?

The ones I trust. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And like, I mean, because you did, I guess she or they changed their name to Anne Honey. Yeah. She or they changed their name to Anne Honey. Yeah. You know, because when that artist was Anthony and the Johnsons.

Yeah. I mean, that is some of the most heartbreaking fucking music I've ever heard in my life. That song says exactly how I feel with all its heartbreakingness. Yeah. We need another world. I'm going to miss the birds. I'm going to miss the sea. I can barely get through it. Yeah.

You know. world. I'm going to miss the birds. I'm going to miss the sea. I can barely get through it. Yeah. And I think that you must have listened to their version a lot because they have a way of vocalizing that's very unique, right? Yeah. But you know, I don't listen to it a lot. When I learn something, then I put that aside. You take it. Yeah. You got to move yourself through it, right? And the Wait songs are always tight and fun. Yeah. Those songs are amazing. Do you know him? Do you live by him? Not really. He's a funny guy. You know, I met him on an airplane and he said, mumbled, thanks for doing my song. I just mumbled, thanks for writing them. Yeah.

And also the Great Correction is great too. I mean, those songs are really interesting. I don't know Eliza Gilkinson. No. Do you know her? Personally, I don't know. No. Isn't that interesting that throughout your life, other than Dylan, you do people's songs, but you don't necessarily know them because the song is its own thing.

It's its own being in a way. Yeah. And some I know. Sure. But if a song floats in out of the office here or an office there or a friend, then it doesn't matter to me. Yeah, it's a song. Yeah. Right? It's supposed to be that way.

But you knew the guys in the band, and you did, you know, the night they drove old Dixie down. And I didn't hang out with them. I didn't really know them. Oh, you didn't? No, I should have, you know. I was not in circulation. You know who I think a lot about is Danko. Oh, you didn't? No, I should have. You know, I was not in circulation for a lot of the years. You know who I think a lot about is Danko. Oh, yeah.

What a sweet soul that guy was. You know, his voice and his whole being. Yeah. I kind of think about him a lot. Do you have people

you think about all the time from that era? That era? There's some I play, like Robbie Robertson's one of his, what is his story, his album? It's one of his, what is his Storyville album?

It's one of my favorite albums. Things like that. Van Morrison, despite of him being what I consider a despicable human being, has written these beautiful, beautiful songs. Even if he writes the same thing over and over again, it doesn't matter. It's just his delivery. Oh, I know, right? It's very inspired and fluid and improvisational. How are your hands? How's the

playing? No, I don't play. If I want to play something, it takes me a month to get my fingers working. Really? Yeah, when I'm finished tour 2018, you say I hung up the guitar. I hung up the guitar on the wall and I didn't take it down for, I think, three and a half or four years.

And Bob Weir said, we'd be a part of this cool evening. And I thought, okay, well, I'll give it a try. Because the voice, as you start off in the film. Which evening was that with Weir? It was Hager and Weir, and it was a benefit for something I don't remember. But there were. So you know Bob. Yeah.

All right. And actually, he said Taj Mahal is going to be part of it. Oh, yeah. So that was the deciding factor. Yeah. Because I hadn't seen him in decades. Yeah, yeah. And I want to see him and hear him, so...

He's a talker. He's a storyteller and a talker, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, it took me a month to six weeks to be sure enough that I could do what I was doing, because it's in a whole different register. And the more I give up what I can't do anymore and really give it up, the more comfortable I am singing. I think your voice sounds great. I mean, because like, you know, I don't know if your ego allows it, but I mean, something happens if you keep singing.

Your ego allows it, but I mean, something happens if you keep singing. And it gets, there's something, there's a new character to it. Oh, yeah. That is deeper and more almost raw. Yes, it is. And as I say, I begin liking it, but it's the grasping, Because starting off as a high soprano, which I love, I love listening to. Yeah, yeah. And I've always felt that it was a gift and that my job was maintenance and delivery.

But I love that, those earlier days. So that was the job. Huh? That was the job. It's interesting you thought it was the job. Because your voice was very specific and very, you know, it sounded like you had to work at it, right? No, I didn't for the first. Never. Oh, yeah.

After about 15 or 20 years, things started going screwy. I thought, wait a minute here. I'm not making this note and this is uncomfortable. Somebody said, well, why don't you go see a coach? And I thought, well, harumph. Miss natural talent here doesn't have to do that. And so for the next, for the rest of the career, I saw, you know, one coach or another. And that helped?

Well, I wouldn't have been doing any of it without that help. So you're not going to tour anymore? No. Oof, no. You saw me on the bus. So you're just, what, going to enjoy your life? Oh, my God, I'm writing a poetry book. I just released the book of Upside Down Drawings.

I've been working like mad on this documentary. Yeah. I'll probably release this coffee table book of the paintings I've done. Oh, those look good. I've never that I can remember been this busy. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But it's with other things. Oh, those are good. I've never, that I can remember, been this busy. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

But it's with other things. Oh, yeah. The pressure of performing is lifting. You know, going out to do this, you know, talking with you

and talking with the press and so on is, you know, I've got to pack a bag and I've got to leave the house. But aside from that, without having to vocalize

and the discipline and the guitar playing, every single day that I'm actually singing, which is maybe four nights a week, there was no relief from that. I had to do that. Yeah. And right now, hell, I can paint my nails. Yeah.

So the dread is gone. Well, it's not dread. No. It got harder. So it wasn't as. Well, it's not dread. No. It got harder. So it wasn't as though it was fluid and fun. After I went to a vocal therapist about eight years before I quit, it became easier. Okay. Because she gave me some tricks I hadn't had.

But not having to do that travel. Yeah. Must be great. Oh, it's unbelievable. And you and your son are good? Me and my son just are just, it's an amazing love story. I mean, that he was willing to go and get help with me. We bashed this stuff through, and we haven't stopped.

I mean, it's a lot to unpack, and every time we unpack a suitcase full of mold, we take that stuff and get some help with it. Does he live close by? He does at the moment. He's living on my property. That's good. Yeah. All right. Well, it was great talking to you.

Hey, my pleasure. I thought we did good. We did real good. I love your garage. Thank you. There you go. That was me and Joan Baez having a good time. The documentary is now playing in theaters.

And hang out for a second, people. Every veteran has a story. Whatever your next chapter, get support with health education finance and more at veterans.gc.ca services a message from the government of canada it's a night for the whole family be a part of kids night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Hey, if you don't know about this there's a bonus episode for full marin subscribers every friday hosted by brendan brendan mcdonald uh the producer of this show and our friend chris lopresto uh and it's every friday and last week they had on film critic Matt Singer to talk about his new book, Opposable Thumbs, How Siskel and Ebert Changed Movies Forever.

You never heard the phrase, you make a good point on Siskel and Ebert, even when both of them often did make good points. They refused to concede that at any point, anyone but them made a good point. In all the years of the show, I think there's one example of gene changing his mind on the air for a movie the john travolta action movie broken arrow you know he gave it like a very mild positive review roger rebuts and says yeah i think pretty

much what you said is true except i don't think it's very good and you know this was even worse than you said and i didn't really care for this. And Gene goes like, you know what, I've never done this. And he never had and he never would again. He's like, I'm gonna twist the thumb down. You're right. What am I praising here? It's not really that good. Thumbs down. It's so funny, because I read reading it in the book. It was like somebody writing about like the helmet catch in the Superbowl. Like I was like, I remember when that happened. I had like this vivid memory of the graphic of the thumb being turned downward on screen. Like I'm sitting there with my dad watching it. Like, whoa, did you see what just happened?

It was almost as if a Hulk Hogan had just picked up Andre the Giant, honestly. It was almost as if a Hulk Hogan I just picked up Andre the Giant, honestly. To get the Friday show every week, plus my bonus episodes every Tuesday, as well as every episode of WTF ad-free, subscribe to The Full Marin. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. All right? Okay. Here's some guitar from the archives. Thank you. Thank you. boomer lives monkey lafonda cat angels everywhere.