WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1485 - John Wilson

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

While John Wilson spends his time filming everything around him, one question he’s constantly asking is whether he should be filming everything around him all the time. John talks with Marc about how his lifelong fascination with film combined with his terrible experiences in reality television led to an embrace of the documentary medium. They talk about the creation of his show, How To with John Wilson, and how it became a way for him to process emotionally difficult things in his life. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? How are you? I'm back from Boston. It was a good trip. It was good, man. There was some closure there. It was good. I'll talk about it in a second. So today, I have a pretty great conversation with John Wilson. He's a documentary filmmaker and the creator of How To with John Wilson. I watched all of the seasons. I didn't know what I would think, but I grew to really appreciate his approach. And he's an actual real artist, this guy. And as the seasons went on, there were three of them, it got deeper and

darker. And I don't think there's been anybody in recent memory that really captures New York as authentically as John Wilson. I will say that. Look, I'm in Denver, Colorado at the Comedy Works South for four shows, November 17th and 18th. A couple of those are sold out. The late ones, they're still tickets. I would come. Los Angeles, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on December 1st, 13th, and 28th. The Elysian on December 6th, 15th, and 22nd. And Largo on December 12th and January 9th. Then my 2024 tour gets started in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday,

January 27th. San Francisco, Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. Portland, Maine at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts, right outside of Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets. And they're happening. I mean, we did the pre-sale, a lot of pre-sales. Exciting, because they feel like they're far down the line, but maybe they're not.

Maybe that's me. Maybe that's me, man. Boston, Massachusetts, as you know, if you've had any experience with New England, the fall is truly the best time to be in Boston, Massachusetts. I mean, just flying into Logan and seeing all those, like just the trees below, you know, like in full red, orange, yellows.

It's just, to me, it's like immediately disarming and immediately meditative. I don't even know how to explain it, but nothing really transports me to another kind of a mental, emotional zone, like crisp air, clouds. And, and then when you get on the ground, that old architecture and the strange kind of like spoke like city layout of Boston, which I guess is because it was done for wagons or, or not for cars or horse trails. I don't remember. I don't know the history, but you have Boston and then you have all these spokes that are highways and streets out of Boston. And, and it's, it's, it was always a pain in the ass to drive there because like several highways go the same direction, but at slightly different angles. So you don't know you're not heading the West you

want to head until you're like in another city or another town. You're like, how do we get to fucking, you know, here when we were trying to, we're just going West. That's because there's five different Wests, but that's kind of like choices in life, you know, in a way it's I'm using a metaphor, but because Boston was where, you know, I, I mean, so many of the choices I made, you know, were dictated by that city on some level. And, and, and it's kind of strange to go back. I mean, I learned how to think there intellectually, kind of, I learned how to have sex beyond

my own. I learned how to fall in love. I learned how to write, freak out, understand art, fail, fail at sex, bullshit, write poetry. I learned how to dress kind of though that's still evolving, do drugs and drink. I learned how to do comedy as a job in that city. And it's just a few things and there's memories attached to all of that. I mean, it's a defining city for me, but I rarely go back just for fun. You know, I don't know why that is. And I was trying to think about it, but I guess it feels

like a place of, you know, kind of profound transition for me, you know, because, because it was, it also feels like a source of, of a full spectrum of early embarrassments and failures and, and mild to profound traumas. I mean, on some level, you know, why would I want to go back? But, you know, I went back and I'm, I'm always excited to go back. Cause you kind of wait for closure. And I think it kind of happened this time because this time was, was a little different. I mean, I think if you get old enough, uh, it's just a matter of time before the memories, you know, of whatever kind of fade or shift. And if you don't kind of revisit them over and over again, uh, for whatever reason, usually to use as a hammer on yourself. If you don't, if you don't, if you don't revisit them and give them life, they kind of lose their juice.

You know what I mean? If you don't revisit them and give them life, they kind of lose their juice. You know what I mean? I mean, I can still juice them up, but it's like finding an old, outdated piece of equipment that still works when you plug it in. You're curious. You're like, I wonder if this will work. And you're amazed if it does, but what difference does it really make? You can't use it, and it might blow up.

But it's nice to have on the shelf you know what I mean it's nice to keep all those memories on the shelf pull them down and hope they don't explode when you plug them in but my old my old friend Jimmy Jimmy Loftus happened to be in the country which he's rarely he's out doing the things he does he was in a nearby state he was up in New Hampshire. So he came down to hang out with me. And this is a guy that I went to freshman year of college with. I've talked about him before. I love this guy. We've been friends, I guess, like it's fucking, I don't, I mean, I don't, it's crazy, but you know, we spent the whole day, you know, just kind of walking around Boston and Cambridge just for hours, just, just talking like a couple of

people that have known each other like 40 years, 40 fucking years. Is that crazy? It was, it was a very nice, very reflective day, but also, you know, nice to be alive and be the people we are now. And just kind of to get into it, you know, I mean, I, that's usually what I do with my oldest friends, actually, you know, when I haven't seen them in, in maybe years, you just take a whole day, you know, just walk around, you eat, you have coffee, you sit, you talk, kind of let it unfold, have some silences. And I, I just, I find that, and I, and I'm pretty consistent with this. I do it with, with LipSide. I do it with Boulware. I do it with, um,

John Daniel recently. It's just, that's the way to do it. It's the best way to reground yourself in a friendship that has lasted, you know, sometimes for decades. It's just take the day, get off the phone, take a walk with no plans and, you know, have something to eat, have some coffee, walk some more. All right, so here's what happens. So I get there and I told you about it. I was doing the Cam Neely benefit. This is the comics come home benefit. I've done it a few times before in the past. And, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's always interesting to go back to Boston. You know, it was, it was a great lineup. Uh, but it brings me right back to my roots to in some ways there's the basic roots are just you know filthy risky raw boston comedy you know i mean i've done three or four of these and i remember what it was like to start there you know this is like the 27th one they had dennis leary hosts it it was me bill burr Robert Kelly Tammy Pescatelli Orlando Baxter Alex Edelman Rachel Feinstein Lenny Clack Lenny Clack and uh Pete Davidson it was at the garden

I don't know what they call it now the Boston the old Boston garden packed 13,000 people now for me you know I was excited I was going to play with the band. I rehearsed, they rented me a guitar and an amp and we, you know, we rehearsed it. And then, you know, Dennis tells me the lineup and I'm like, oh man, Bobby Kelly, then me and then Burr. And I'm looking at the schedule. I'm like, why do I got to follow Bobby Kelly? Look, I love Bobby Kelly. I love his comedy, but he's a filthy fuck. He's a filthy fuck. And I was like, God damn it.

But I'm not going to be a primadon. I'm not a primadon. I'm a professional. But why do I got to follow him? And I said to Burr, I'm like, why don't you just, why don't I just go before him? And Burr's like, uh-uh. You got the spot.

I don't think he had anything to do with it, but I got to be the buffer between Bobby and Bert. Now look, you know, I can handle myself. I'm a pro, but I just knew I'm like, what are you going to do,

Bobby? What are you going to do? He goes, I don't know. I might tank. And I'm like, I don't think so. I've been,

I've been in this position before. I've seen him before. And if I can, if I don't even know how to explain it, but you know, it was, and here's the weird thing. It might have triggered something from many years ago. Many years ago when I was just starting out in Boston,

I got my first guest spot at Nick's Comedy Stop. And that's where you do 10 minutes on a show, a regular show, pro show. And I went on after Leary. This is early Leary when it was just, I mean, I don't remember if you remember, it was just an assault of high-speed ranting. And whether he did well or not, it didn't matter. So I remember I got up there and I tried to just jump on his energy, failed, and I bombed. I bombed so badly that I remember it to this day well.

It's one of those old machines that I can plug in and it might blow up. But I, I didn't let it blow up because when I saw I was on the list after Bobby, I'm like, dude, all right, this is your, this is your shot at closure. This is it. You just fucking go up there, suck it up and do your fucking job, you baby. And fucking Bobby got up there. I'm just watching him in the wings. And he just, he just crushes with this like fast paced, lyrical barrage of rabble lazy and filth. And it's just, you know, it just involved, uh, fucking at his age in a small house and his wife's vagina was dying and they didn't have lube and there was coconut oil involved and gagging and fingers. I mean, it was pure Bobby Kelly and I knew it. I knew it. And it's just, it is blowing the place apart. And I'm just sitting there and

I'm like, oh my God. And I'm just like prepping for tankage. Just prepping for the big shit-eating fucking festival I'm going to have. But then, like, I didn't let it blow up, you know. I just didn't let it blow up. You know, it wasn't, you know, just a blustering bunch of hilarious filth. but I was able to do what I do. And I got some quality laughs. And then I played with the band on the asshole song and it was, uh, it was pretty fucking fun, but all in all, it was a great trip to Boston. And, uh, it was great to, to do the benefit to help that cause.

So John Wilson. I think the funniest thing about John Wilson is that right around the time he was supposed to show up at my house, I kind of wandered outside and I thought I heard a car stop and I walk out into my street and I just see there's a car

that had driven him here with the driver and then I just see him wandering off away from my house with his camera. And I'm like, of course he is. It's a guy who lives through his camera. He was, uh, he was shooting the, uh, Halloween decorations across the street. And I'm like, you done? You want to, you want to talk or you, you want to get some more, uh, You done? You want to talk? You want to get some more footage?

So I enjoyed this talk a lot because I don't think he talks a lot, generally speaking, to other people, perhaps publicly or at all. I don't know. But, you know, it was engaged and good and interesting. He's made three seasons of How To with John Wilson for HBO. And this is me and John hashing it out. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

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Zensurance. Mind your business. doing a lot of talking today yeah i'm gonna right after this i think i'm gonna go i think pitch a new show and then right after that i'm going on kimmel kimmel today yeah that'll be fun he's all right i i have a little costume that I had someone make. Oh, yeah? For Halloween, but I haven't tried it on yet. It might be... What? I don't know.

Hopefully they let me wear it. Oh, yeah? What is it? It's just a toilet, but there's some interactive elements to it. You're going to dress as a toilet? Yeah, you know, for Halloween, because... In reference to the show where the shit's peeling toilet? Yeah, it's kind of a, you know, it's trying to raise awareness, yeah, I guess, about the lack of public restrooms.

Well, in the new season, you discussed that video from your show, and it was some sort of... Oh, yeah. Right. And it was like, you know, it was an act of conscience that you admitted that when you use the video for the last season? I forget. I think it was the second season. Right. The second season.

That I used it. But it was based on a video you saw that you were mad that you didn't actually witness. Yeah. So you like, I like you guys, you get these HBO deals and then you find you have enough money to, like, I guess in the second season you had enough money to reconstruct or build a bathroom that was like the one on the video you saw of the sewage backup through the sink and the toilet. And you recreated it entirely in the studio. Yeah, but there was something that still felt a little off about it. I wasn't sure what it was. What, you mean your recreation?

Yeah, the recreation of the bathroom. Other than you were trying to sell it as something real? Yeah, it was just kind of like the quality of the sewage. Yeah, the quality of the sewage, and also I think the way it was coming out did not seem authentic. Even though the real video was just as cartoony, but there's just something that's just a little off. You believed it.

Yeah, that it's, I don't know. People did ask me if it was real, which made me feel like I had screwed up somehow. But you knew you were doing it at the time. Yeah. Well, you know, it was for a tax credit. I mean, in the first season of the show, Nathan and I built this entire...

Nathan Fielder. Yeah. During the pilot, we were trying to figure out what the show even was, and we built a full fake subway set and had this kind of small talk situation happening there with a hostage negotiator and someone else. And, you know, so it was like a big kind of budget thing. And we shot the whole thing and ended up just not using it so you didn't use it at all uh no no because of the integrity issue um it just didn't feel like

the right uh kind of thing for the show it it didn't feel like i was the kind of person that constructed situations like that. Yeah. I like the more grounded, you know, just stuff that you see naturally. In a reality. Yeah, that was always the richest material to me. That sounds like more of a Fielder thing. Yeah, I think we were trying to figure out how much was Fielder and how much was me. In the first season?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because we just didn't really know what the show was. How'd that relationship begin? Well, I was a big fan of Nathan for You as it came out. I would watch it regularly. And then one night, my friend Clark was at a gallery opening and saw Nathan there and introduced himself. And it turns out Nathan had seen this one movie that I did.

And then Clark texted me. And then I immediately came out just to say hi. You were at home in your apartment? Yeah, I was watching Jeopardy at home. Yeah. And which movie had he seen? It was called, it was a movie I can never release called Los Angeles Plays New York. And it's, I basically wore a bunch of hidden cameras and to get onto and got onto a court TV show. Yeah. And as a As the guy who had been wronged?

Yeah. And yeah, I was... The plaintiff? Yeah. You know, someone owed me $1,000. So I tried to get the real person to come on court TV, but he refused. So I basically just faked it with my friend.

Oh. Yeah. And so you played the court. We played the court, but I was genuinely in a, in a place where I did need a thousand dollars. Um, you know, and, and I, I, and that's what's, what was great about the court TV thing is that they not only pay you, but the, uh, defendant doesn't have to actually pay you. The court pays you. Well, that's part of the, that's the appeal of the fake court. Yeah. So, that's how they get defendants on to begin with, is that they say, like, you've already won, basically, because even if you lose, you don't have to pay

what this person is suing you for. So, they're looking for relatively small claims problems. Yeah. And if it wins in court, they can't really enforce the payment, even if you make your case, and the guy was there and he admitted to it. That court can't make him pay.

Yeah. But you will get paid. Yeah, you will get paid, and you'll both get appearance fees. So was the reason you can't show it because of court TV licensing? Yeah, both court TV licensing and the person that I initially was trying to sue. Yeah. He also

sent a cease and desist letter to me the one time I tried to show it. Was this a friend of yours? No, no. This was some person from Los Angeles. That you just borrowed a thousand dollars from? Sorry,

the story's a little muddled here, but I, yeah, I was hired to make a fashion film from some guy in Los Angeles who was visiting New York. And I made it, and he refused to pay me. And I tried to sue him, but he didn't reply. So I fabricated the entire thing just to get my money back in a roundabout way.

But do you think in terms of like no matter what, like, like the show and I watched all three seasons and there's a few things I noticed. But in talking to you about this right now, is there – are you always thinking in terms of whether it will be documentable no matter what? Like, I mean, it seems at this point, because of the nature of how you do documentary, that almost anything that happens in your life from, you know, waking up to making coffee, you seem to be thinking, like, should I be filming this? Yeah, it's something I, um, I feel like it's, it's the one thing that's always given me purpose. Um, to have the document. Yeah. You know, I, I, I, I feel like certain subjects are, um, I mean, when I, when I started making the show, I took my normal process and just kind of put it on steroids. So I was really filming, you know, every egg I made or sausage I grilled, you know. You mean, oh, after you started the show?

Yeah. But before that, your process, other than the court TV thing, I mean, what were you putting together previous? I would film casually just kind of oddities on the streets of New York. As sort of a real document, almost like a still photographer in the 30s or 20s, like a Jacob Rice or somebody that you were showing the sort of tone of the city. Yeah, yeah. A lot of, there's a lot of like kind of old street photographers that are like major inspirations. Like Ouija? Yeah, yeah, Ouija.

Robert Frank? Yeah, Robert Frank. And, you know, kind of Gary Winogrand. Yeah. I kind of, I feel like I never saw anyone do it in motion and put it all together into something cohesive that felt like a self-contained piece that could kind of travel. Because I wonder that in, because like the one thing I noticed

when I first started watching the show was that it was very honestly representative. You sort of are preoccupied with the slightly grotesque nature of humanity and its detritus or detritus, right? So you do like dead animals you know fluids gunk unidentified gunk uh you know people who you know are just uh can't help but be slightly uh grotesque yeah but but I was wondering yesterday or a couple days ago

when I was watching some of the new season, so do you have an, it sounds like you have an active archive of moments. Yeah. Yeah, there's a really just colossal archive of material that makes it easy to cut a lot of this stuff together because whenever you need a transitional moment or you need, like, you can build a poem out of anything. So you think in terms of poetry? Yeah, yeah. But, you know, very kind of basic

poetry, you know, it's like... Well, I mean, it's visual poetry. It's poetry that evolves out of montage. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's like I try to keep it very kind of basic and, you know, have like a very basic rhyme scheme with some of it so that it like, you know, it feels a little childish. But, you know, even if there's something kind of a dark truth within it. Right.

But it does seem like, you know, to match lighting consistency, you're pretty good with that. Are you aware of, do you have it subcategorized in terms of overcast or night? Interesting. Yeah, there is a kind of a sequence of of of dusk and nighttime but i i usually only shoot i mean as a rule i only shoot with natural light um right so i it makes it a little easy because like i can usually stop filming whenever the sun sets all right so most of it's daytime yeah like yeah most of just, and that's how

I keep it consistent. But then every now and then I'll just be out at night randomly and I'll get some stuff. But yeah, I just try to keep the process as simple as I possibly can. You know, it's like, I mean, I see you have this, the give me shelter poster here. It's like the Maisels were just such a huge inspiration early on because you know you look at something like salesman yeah and it's like all they were waiting for was a camera that could do sync sound you know and then and then look at what they did with it yeah and like do we did we really need to evolve past that point you know right with even with stuff just like a some like a brace to to keep the camera on you like i know i try not to use any of that stuff

steady camp yeah yeah well i mean i saw you out in front of my house filming the uh you know i i knew uh right away i mean i was just walking out to see if you were here yet, and I heard the door shut. And then I kind of saw you through my hedge there, you know, wandering. And I thought, like, well, how is he missing the address? And I realized, like, oh, he's got to be filming. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There were some nice Halloween decorations.

Yeah, that guy goes crazy. Yeah. And, yeah, you know, so I, you know, with something like that, you know, I'll try to just shoot it in a way that could maybe be used in a non-Halloween context. And what are you shooting on? Is that what you shoot on all the time? No, this is just what I'm shooting on kind of right now in the off season because. What is it? It's just like a Sony DV camera.

It's like a DCR PC9. Newer one? No, it's from the early 2000s or 90s. With the little screen that pops off to the side? Yeah, it's great. It's got a great zoom. It's got night vision. And it's, you know, I can't use it for like something like how-to,

but that's just my kind of home video camera. So it's just for me. Right. So this thing, this living in this, moving through life in this mediated way, when did that start? Pretty early. I think when I was maybe 14. Family had a Betamax kind of deal? It was a Hi8 camera. Yeah. I think our first one was a Hi8 camera. And it just became, you know, just this accessory that I had with me all the time. And I just like was inseparable from it. I remember even I got held up for it at gunpoint when I was in Long Island growing up.

What town? In Rocky Point. Yeah. It's on the North Shore north shore you give up the camera no the the guy i was walking through a parking lot going to radio shack to get a new battery for the camera and this car just comes drives right up next to me um and opens the door and the guy has a like a gun yeah he's pointing it at me and he's like, give me the bag. And to me, I was like,

thinking in the moment, like, there's no way I can give this to him. All of my movies are on this tape. I can't, I can't get like, then all the, they'll all be gone. So I just said no. And then he's like, give me the bag. And he starts to get out of the car and I just start walking and I, and then he gets back in and drives away. And then I go to radio shack and I'm, I, I, I, I'm like speechless. I can't talk. I can't tell them what I want. And then I don't really tell anybody what happened for a couple of days. And then I don't really tell anybody what happened for a couple days. And then I finally tell my parents. Yeah.

And they call the police. And it turns out that they had just, those guys had just robbed a gas station. And I don't know why they wanted my camera. Did your parents tell you, why didn't you give it to them? Well, yeah. To me, the movies were the most important things in the world.

I didn't... So it wasn't even a courageous thing. It was just practical. Yeah. You saved all those movies. Thank God. And those tapes are probably corrupt now or something. You haven't looked at them?

And you oddly weren't filming the event. No, yeah. I think that would be a little too threatening on my part to be filming the man with the gun. It's not anymore. It seems like what everyone does. Yeah, exactly. It's to the point

where they don't step in. All this footage of people, of these guys who just jump out of a truck and raid park cars at the beach and stuff. Those are crazy. And somebody's shooting them. Oh, really? Yeah. It happens all the time.

If people down in Malibu or somewhere park to go walk out to the beach, these trucks just come upon where the cars are parked, break the window, take everything out in seconds, and split. But there's enough footage of it to make you wonder, like, did anyone make a call?

Did the plate get taken? Like, I mean, what's happening? It's a tough choice. Have you had to make that choice where you're like, well, obviously you edit, but there's obviously stuff that, you know, you capture where you're like, should I help this person? Yeah. I don't know. There are those.

It's never something that drastic. It's, you know, if someone is in like clearly in distress, I try not to film. I mean, there has to be something kind of comedic or poetic about whatever's happening. And if it's just kind of brutality, I try to... You don't encourage that. You're not looking for that. Yeah. I mean, that's why it's very easy to get this wrong. How so? wrong and how so i i i the i just i've just seen a few people try to kind of imitate the show yeah in in their own way yeah lightly and it um

yes sometimes the joke is is kind of mocking right whoever's on screen rather than like kind of... Having an empathetic lens as opposed to letting someone hang themselves. Yeah. To me, the joke, I usually want to be on myself. You know, if I'm filming someone clip their toenails in public, then I kind of want to make it seem like that's something that I or we have all also done in a way.

Well, in that episode, it was about ears, right? Yeah, yeah. And then, well, it was sort of a montage of people self-grooming to one extreme or another. But ultimately, the quest was, if you can't use a Q-tip, what do you do? And then it does become about you and you kind of offer up the footage of the camera attached to whatever the tool was

to remove the wad of wax in your head. Yeah. So you're not sitting there going, that guy was clipping his nails on the street. What an idiot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's just like a very,

there's a delicate equation that goes into kind of every shot and line combination. But early on, you know, when you were shooting as a kid, you're just making silly movies. I mean, you sort of captured that a few times within the series. Yeah, and there was a lot of experimentation and like a lot of really, really bad stuff that I hope nobody ever encounters.

Do you have brothers and sisters? You have a brother, right? Yeah, I have a younger brother, Tom, and he is an amazing photographer. He shot a lot of the behind the scenes photos on the past couple seasons. Did you grow up in that? I mean, why both of these sort of lens guys? with these sort of lens guys? I think that he came into it a little bit later, but kind of outpaced me in that department.

How so? He's just... He's a working photographer? He is an earth science teacher at a school in Brooklyn. So he's extremely scientific. He is a, he is a competitive marathon runner. He is like so much more detail oriented and I think smarter than me in so many ways. But I think one thing we share and really bond on is, is image making. And what, where did this come into your life as a kid?

I mean, like, what do your parents do? My dad was kind of a systems analyst, kind of worked in kind of computers for MetLife. My mom was a teacher. She taught at my high school growing up. She taught a couple different things. But she was a school administrator for a teacher. She taught at my high school growing up. She taught a couple different things. But she was a school administrator for a while. So, yeah, not, it wasn't, but also my dad would spend a lot of time bringing us to different museums growing up. And like, you know, we would always make these field trips to PS1 in Queens growing up.

Oh, yeah. And that was just a really cool eye-opening experience. Do you remember, like, what photographers you were exposed to? It wasn't photography that I was really exposed to there. It was more just, like, strange avant-garde art. And, like, you know, I would would it was just like a playground for me i remember there's this one exhibit i'll never forget where you know you walk into a room and there's a bunch of mousetraps on the floor and you and there's a bowl of ping pong balls at the

front yeah and the ceiling is covered in glue traps and you just throw ping pong balls into the into the room. And the traps go up. And they get stuck. And they fall down. And it's chaos. Amazing. I love stuff like that.

Because I remember, you know, like as a photography head, when I was in high school, I shot. And then when I got to high school, I shot. And then when I got to college, it became too complicated. I realized that there was no way I was going to wrap my brain around the chemicals and the papers and the film speeds to sort of really master it. So I bailed. And then I studied it as an art in, you know, it was my minor. Like I did a year-long survey in the history of photography. Oh, really?

Yeah. The guy started the first semester at cave painting, and the first semester was cave painting through the introduction of photography. So he laid the groundwork. Oh, wow. In terms of, you know, image representation, mediated experience, you know, all the way through like the Dutch and the camera obscura and kind of really defined. The idea was to ground photography as an art form, which was sort of a challenge in general

once everyone could take a picture. Yeah, yeah, right. So you had the sort of documentary school and the art photography school. Those were the two, right, existing ways of assessing photography as art. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, it's still debatable what kind of venue it should exist in.

Yeah, right. And, you know, where it's taken seriously. And I just watched that doc on Nan Golden. Oh yeah. Yeah. Her stuff is great. It's great. I didn't realize the menace and risk of it until I watched the doc on her.

Yeah. All of the street photography stuff was just, it was just, it was just like, oh, okay, this is it. Like,

you know, you, all the, like, like when I first started making documentary stuff, I didn't have any money. So it's like, oh, this is the one thing you can do where it looks the way it should, even if you don't have any money.

And you don't need to hire production staff or whatever. You're just like... Solo operator. Yeah, and that's... to hire production staff or whatever. Yeah. You're just like. Solo operator. Yeah. And that's, and not only is, can you pull it off, but that's probably the way that it should look. Yeah. And so it just like, I tried to figure out whatever the simplest way to do anything was

because that, you know, that usually yielded the, the, the content with the most life. Did you get into that Brisson stuff? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a huge Brisson head. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's, I, I mean, I, I, I read his, his book a handful of times. Yeah? The kind of notes on the cinematographer. And yeah, that was a huge inspiration. I just always loved the way he talked about kind of capturing kind of...

The moment? The moment and very subtle gestures. Yeah. And how powerful the, like just the, the speed at which you turn a door, a doorknob, um, can, like what kind of effect that can have, uh, on the viewer and also like what it means for the character. And, and I, I think about that a lot when I'm filming like a little hand gestures of people waiting on the subway, you know,

just nervous ticks and stuff like that. Right. That, that is a very Brassani, um, kind of lens. Right. So all this stuff,

it was able to, well, what's interesting is that, you know, outside of devices or, or what you start to put together as a story that, you know, the images themselves,

even if they only last a few seconds, are kind of infused with a point of view that, you know, is informed by all this stuff. And it's yours. Yeah. But, you know, it's also just this Frankenstein of, you know, all of these great artists, I think, that I try to emulate that I'm ripping off in a way. I don't think, well, yeah, it's like, that's one of those things where it's like,

with your particular, you know, medium, I mean, in terms of the shots themselves, it becomes very difficult to say, like, well, he stole that, you know, unless, you know, you're stealing poses or something. I mean, like, it's just an evolution. It's, it's a, it's a, it's an informed, you've informed yourself or, or integrated stuff. You know, you're not painting the same thing.

Yeah. I wasn't sure. Yeah. Cause like, you know, we're doing the same three notes. Well, yeah. Cause like the essay film has, has been around forever, you know, just the idea of this, has been around forever. You know, just the idea of this,

someone kind of narrating and as you're, you know, it's like even as far back as just like early newsreel stuff, that's just like the dominant kind of way a lot of stories were told. Right. But I feel like the essay film was always kind of somewhere within,

like on the fringe somewhere, like as like a, whether it be a memoir or a personal essay or something like that. And I kind of wanted to see if it could be elevated. Well, it seems like, what was it, Ross McElwee? Yeah, yeah. He kind of put it on the map in a way. Yeah, exactly. Right?

Yeah, and, like, somebody would be more familiar with that movie. Right. Well, I mean, it seems like when I talk to documentarians, like, you know, I had made the mistake. I somehow got it in my head that documentarians are journalists, which they're not necessarily. I think there is this idea when you just passively engage with a documentary that you're watching an investigation of some kind. But it does not. It's not unbiased. Whether it's a personal story

or whether it's an ideological point of view. Yeah. You're not there like the who, what, when, and where objectively, necessarily. Yeah. I guess the newsreels were sort of an attempt at that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's like kind of a folksy version of it. Yeah. But it's, yeah. Yeah, that's like, you know, kind of a folksy version of it.

Yeah. But it's, yeah, and that's what I love playing with so much within documentaries. You know, I've seen so many and I feel like I've attended so many Q&As of like documentarians trying to explain their work and dancing around the obvious. Which is, it's about them. Yeah. Yeah. That, that,

that, that, I don't know. I mean, it's different with every project, but I, I just like to be really front and center about how I am like an active participant, you know,

and, and, and, and I am like fundamentally changing this environment by being in the center of it, you know? Right. Well, that's sort of like,

you know, the gonzo journalism thing too, right? Yeah. It was a shift probably in the late sixties or something. Yeah. And that's also, yeah.

Like that stuff is, is, is all my favorite, like, you know, like my favorite books is, is, um, the neighbor's wife by that guy guy

tillies yeah yeah and and it's like i'm constantly talking about this book but you know i just i love that you know in like the third act of the book or whatever he just ends up at this polyamorous community and he's talking about his experience there right and how it's kind of destroying his marriage in a way. Yeah. And, you know. So it got away from him. Yeah. And, yeah, or like, you know, I was a huge Hunter Thompson fan

and like Hell's Angels was just such a kind of a big work for me. Oh, that's interesting because that's early. Yeah. And that's before he became sort of the kind of like drugged out clown genius. But he was still kind of... Infusing himself.

Getting really trashed and riding around in Harleys and stuff. Yeah, right, right. But he hadn't honed it into his thing yet. I mean, that was the first book. Right? Really? Yeah, right. But like, but he hadn't honed it into his thing yet. I mean, that was the first book, right? Really? Yeah, yeah. I think it's pretty, I don't know the chronology of it.

Yeah, no, because the fear and loathing stuff, that became like, sort of like, this is my thing. I am the story. Yeah, and I like how in work like that, you do embellish. And that's why I kind of wanted to talk about the exploding, fabricating and exploding restroom, just because that was a bit of a telltale heart for me, where I was just kind of living with this guilt of, of, of, of having fabricated something. Uh, when I, I, I do take the kind of purity of, of shooting, like very seriously a lot of the time and, and like go to great lengths to make sure that what you're seeing is real. But when you decided to fabricate the toilet, did you know that you would later explain it?

I mean, was it a deep? No. You just said like, fuck it. Yeah, just because I wanted to. Who's going to know? Yeah, just because I wanted to. Who's going to know? Yeah, I mean, I could have spent the rest of my career hiding that or anything else.

Just like Dostoevsky, you know, just like Raskolnikov sweating and festering over the fact that he's getting away with murder. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, the same thing and i yeah and i i i wanted to kind of i i thought it would just be like a courtesy to to to level with the audience and and and also just kind of acknowledge the fact that there are these kind of fabrications in all documentary work. And the way you did that was created a massive fabrication. Yeah, yeah. Spent some more of HBO's money.

Yeah. And not unlike John Oliver, you know, went ahead and got explosives involved. Yeah. That was always a dream to blow up a car ever since I was a kid. When did the element, because, you know, I know, years ago I had this concept for a show that it was right when the Internet started that I could never really put down on paper because I didn't have like a way or a method of doing it, which was this idea that, you know, you search for something in the early internet, and then it takes you a series of places. And the story, you know, whatever you were searching for initially, you know, gets diverted

by the results of the search. And then you just kind of follow along with your impulses until wherever you started, you know, you end up somewhere else. Yeah. Totally, through random amount of searching. I can never really structure the idea, but it seems like it's sort of like how you do it, but it can't be that impulsive. Parts of it are.

I kind of, I like to, I like the work to be as close to like a neural imprint as I can, you know, if that's the word. But what comes first? I mean, like in terms of like, you have all this footage, but then you decide, like, you know, when you start something as seemingly mundane as how to clean your ears. And then like, I don't remember where that episode ended up. With a bunch of electrosensitive people. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So how does it get from how do you clean your ears to that? Well, I usually, I always just start with a title.

I usually, I always just start with a title. And I don't know why, but that is the thing that I carry with me. And it usually excites me the most. And then I will, okay, start with how to clean your ears. And then, I mean, yeah, I mean, and then when we're in the writer's room, we begin to, like before we should really shoot much of anything, we'll think, okay, I wonder what would happen if I did clean my ears and I probably will hear things better. Yeah. And then what can we turn this into a universal like kind of story that that is a portrait of like a very specific or you know like a problem in new york like noise yeah so so i i think i

think we have we we go about that far yeah with with some episodes yeah and and then we just try to do the kind of pbs version of it where we just talk to people who have noise problems or noisy neighbors. And then as we're talking to all these people, we just kind of try to take the first exit we can or take multiple exits and just follow them as far as we can. And that usually brings us somewhere strange. And how big is the writer room? This past writer's room was mostly just me and Michael Komen. And then Ali Vidi came in for one episode. But, yeah, the second season was four people.

Four or five, I forget. It was like, yeah, me and Susan and Connor and Michael. So once you get these ideas of going from, you know, cleaning your ears to noise, because like it seems to me that you

land on, you know, truly authentic and usually slightly, you know, compromised characters somehow that kind of, you know, fill out the humanity of each episode. And how much of trial and error is there in there? How much footage is there of people that you can't fit in? And, you know, how many and how do you sort of figure out how to do the shoots? There's a lot of disappointment and frustration.

I'm usually an emotional wreck during the writing, especially, and the beginning of the shooting. Because I really don't know how any of it's going to shake down. the beginning of the shooting because I really don't know how any of it's going to shake down. And I'm just like constantly kind of whipping myself. It's like, is this really just about batteries or just really like, you know, like I don't, I don't know what this is. And then, but, but then this kind of strange, strange thing happens and I don't know how then this kind of strange thing strange thing happens and i i don't know how to explain it i i i i don't know i don't i i'm not this kind of person but yeah there's just like this this weird synchronicity or i i don't know if it's manifestation or something but like just thinking about something constantly and looking everywhere for it,

like it will just, the universe will deliver it to you in really weird ways. But what's the location scouting involved? Is that just you? I mean, how do you end up at that guy's trailer in that one episode? Or how do you end up? Which trailer? The guys who were, you know, well, there seems to be a couple of strange living environments that you just end up in in New Jersey. Well, there's the guy with the big gun machine.

Oh, yeah. But there's also the guy below the water line. Oh, yeah. The weird sort of preppers. But, you know, these are really kind of marginal characters. Yeah. These are really kind of marginal characters. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I really like following those kinds of people just because they're not really represented. Well, how do you find them initially? Usually, okay, so, I mean, the sound cannon guy in Jersey. I mean, so once we have the basic premise of sound and noise complaints, then you can kind of do anything. So we just,

I think, one of my producers... With newspaper articles? Yeah, just found, like, we kind of, we basically built

a little newsroom. Right, okay. Whenever we get into production and it's just, like, constant, it's just like constant.

It's like, Oh, there's this story here. There's this story here. And then it all gets like kind of channeled through me at a point. And I decide whether or not, and, and,

and, or like Michael and I will decide whether or not to chase this story. And if it can fit into any one of six episodes, but we usually just go and film it anyway. Yeah. And we talk with, as long as it's an interesting story, we just go and meet up with them. And then I will cycle through six episodes worth of questions.

Yeah. All different topics. Right. And then in the edit, we'll just use whatever feels funniest. And usually the farther away from the actual subject it is, the funnier it is a lot of the time. Yet it's connected. Yeah, yeah.

The narrative still makes sense. Yeah, you have to do this, yeah, really, a lot of gymnastics to kind of, you know. I'm sorry. It's all right. Because, like, in the episode about fabrication, you know, that sort of goes, you know, you start with the Titanic, right?

Yeah, I think because I just was talking to some guy in Montauk at a bar, and he ends up talking about the Titanic. That wasn't really the Titanic. Yeah, that sank, that it was its sister ship. And then you just find this guy. that it was its sister ship. And then you just find this guy. Yeah, and that was really just like, I found this,

there were a couple of different books about this conspiracy theory. Yeah. But I just picked the one with the guy that had the funniest name. His name was Bruce Beverage. Yeah. And that, and I knew nothing.

I didn't know he was an ex-cop. I didn't know anything. Yeah. But he just was willing to meet us and talk about everything. And then he was just like, that was just like a totally random find that ended up paying off in the biggest way. Yeah. And it paid off in the way that there was, there's a moment there in the car where he's talking about secrets and fabrications in police work that got kind of heavy. Where he was revealing something without revealing it that he was carrying with him.

Yeah. It got very close to him possibly getting in trouble. Yeah. And that, I was like, I was so shaken. Because you didn't follow up that much. Yeah, but it was just like what I'm talking about with thematically, I did not think that it was the perfect monologue to tie everything up that I had been talking about after that moment.

And how does that happen unless you're actively pursuing it somehow, like even subconsciously? Yeah, no, I understand that. It's so strange. I mean, I think about that a lot and how I construct standup and that I write on stage.

So anytime something evolves or anytime something's delivered to me, I have an idea and then I just riff. And then out of nowhere, this punchline will come. And I don't know what to attribute that to. How do you mean the punchline will come? Well, I'll have a funny premise and I'll talk about it. And then all the bits are sort of open-ended and would be my whole life if I didn't put them in specials. So as I talk about them more and I add more things to them with each performance, new things come. And there are certain moments that happen on stage where a bit gets finished. And I don't

know where that comes from. I know that I've left the space for it. But what comes out of my mouth, I didn't know was going to happen. And I'm sort of like, thank God for that. And I don't know why that happens. It's not part of the logic, but it's part of the excitement of how I do it and why I do it the way I do it. Yeah, that's cool. But it's similar in that, you know, you leave the space and, you know, maybe something will come eventually. Maybe it doesn't. Yeah. And that's what's, like, that's what gives all this stuff life is, like, you know, I, I like so many documentaries are, they're telling stories

about something that already happened, you know? So it's, it's like very formula, you know, they'll have this person, that person talking head. Uh, but you know, there's, there's something about the kind of work that I want to make where you're, you're, you're finding the story as it's happening instead of, you know, there's a lot of anxiety involved. And I think it takes, like, a lot more effort in a different way. But I think that that, like, you know, much like figuring it out on stage, it's just like that is the thing that gives it life and makes people, like, yeah. Yeah. And it also gives you life.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it also gives you life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because, yeah, otherwise I would get so bored of whatever I was doing, it just would feel like such a procedure. Right, of course, right. Well, yeah, and you can feel that all the time with all your shows. When did you, like, sort of, was it organic that you'd talk about yourself

in the, I guess, would it be second person? Yeah. Was that just an organic thing? There's something interesting about it in relation to how we're talking about point of view. That it assumes there is a voiceover, a narration. But you're talking to you. But it also puts it on the audience. It's an interesting device that kind of fucks with my head all the time.

Yeah, and I think... Where you're addressing yourself as you go into the place, you do this, you want to do this, you want to do that. Yeah, it pays off, I think, in different ways, and I think it ultimately kind of bonds me with the viewer. Yeah, it pays off, I think, in different ways. And I think it ultimately kind of bonds me with the viewer. Yeah, yeah. Because if I am saying, like, okay, if you want to make risotto, you have to buy this. That makes sense. But then I talk about when I, if I say that your ex shows up and then, you know, and they have an old sweater of yours or something. It's obviously a very, extremely specific to me.

But it, it, it, it does make you think about like where, like what in your life has happened that's been kind of like that. Right. Yeah, sure. what in your life has happened that's been kind of like that. So I try to just let you, I want the viewer to be able to see themselves in it as much as possible because that's the stuff that always inspired me the most growing up. Now, is it wrong in assuming that this last season,

the third season, seems like the most kind of painfully personal for some reason. I don't remember what season it was where you kind of explored your relationship with your landlady. That kind of comes back in this last season, but she goes away and it was kind of emotional. But it seemed like in this season three that you were having some existential issues throughout it around your love life, your physique, who you are in the world, your bad habits. And so it seems ultimately the most personal because it seems like you're going through real personal challenges

that were not just, you know, uh, you know, standard emotional stuff. Yeah, it is, it is a real kind of way to process things for me that this is, this is not like a-on in that way. Anyone that knows me, I think, knows what was really going on in my life when a lot of this stuff happened. Or when I filmed a lot of this stuff and I was dealing with some really complicated emotional stuff. Around what? It's some stuff that I may never talk about publicly. I mean, you do sort of brush a lot of it. You do refer to some of it in the season.

Obviously not whatever you do refer to some of it in the season. Yeah. Obviously not whatever you're keeping to yourself, but I mean, there were struggles, you know, around physique, around sexuality, around compulsion. Right, yeah. Yeah, right. I'm already like exposing myself a lot. Yeah. But there is even kind of a sub-layer beneath that. Sure, sure.

lot yeah there there is there is even kind of a sub layer beneath sure beneath that well yeah well i mean you got to keep the engine uh you know fueled up yeah yeah and but i want to make sure that that's always a part of it somehow just so i like it it feels authentic and and it feels right like it's it's not just a style exercise or something. Well, yeah. I mean, that would be – it has to be authentic because it's not – it doesn't sound like a writer's room could generate some of the issues that you were – Yeah, and I feel bad for them sometimes. You do? Yeah, because it really is – it does act like therapy a lot of the time. Well, I mean, but that's sort of the nature of first-person art. You know, like as a comic, I know what I'm processing. And I know that I'm not doing a character.

And I know that on some level, I don't even know if you have, well, that's a good question for you. But for me, like I don't know what my consideration of the audience is in the sense that, you know, when I'm doing this, you know, I know I'm being witnessed and I know that I'm moving through this stuff. But a lot of times I get done with a set. I'm like, why did I even tell them that? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I had so many of those moments. Yeah, especially with just like the

you know childhood sexuality stuff and it's just like who is asking for this like why like now I need to have all these conversations with all these people like

but it's I still try to behave as if I'm just making it for myself. Right. And for, like, you know, I used to just make things just for my five roommates that I lived with for a while. And if it made them laugh, if it made them feel anything, then I felt good. Yeah. Yeah. Were you able to answer that question?

What? What? Why? Why, why am I doing it? Cause I, I don't, I can't, I can't quite figure it out. Cause after a certain point you're at this edge of, of embarrassment, you know, like there, like I have found that in my life, you know, my biggest fear is it's not even exposure. It's being embarrassed. Yet I work within that area all the time. Yeah. That I'm going to offer this up. And, you know, it is some sort of – I see it as some sort of like, you know, preemptive exercise.

Yeah, you get ahead of it. Yeah, but no one's on your tail but you. Well, you know, they're always just right behind. No, I don't know. Yeah. I see what you mean. It's just an odd thing because you do have a limit, as do I, where, you know, you believe that you're holding on to a few things and that these little kind of views in are limited because you're affording access to whatever you're relatively comfortable with.

But you sort of think like, well, no, but I've still got this other stuff that I can't tell anybody or I don't want, you know, but isn't that only a matter of time? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Like when, when will, like the demands of your workout pace, like what you have in the tank. Right. Or, or just when do you become comfortable in doing that and what are you left with?

You know, what do we get out of this type of transparency? in doing that and what are you left with? What do we get out of this type of transparency? Because everybody talks about this. We live in this very sort of boundary-less culture where anybody can sort of get at you. So I guess there is something intuitive about like, well, I'll get at me first. Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of class clown stuff

originates from too, right? It's just, like, you want to make a joke about yourself before anyone else can. Yeah, but sometimes they fail. And, like, I can remember, you know, doing things as a class clown or doing things, you know, like, you know, impulsively that I thought were funny and I'm just, like, an idiot. Yeah. You know, it's, you got to test outively that I thought were funny and I'm just like an idiot. Yeah. You know, it's, you got to test out new material. It doesn't always work. Sure, sure.

But I don't think I knew that when I was younger. Yeah. You know, so, but in terms of like when you were growing up, were you, how, what kind of friends did you have and how were you seen in your age group? Like, you know, were you this nerd with a camera? Kind of. I think I was kind of was down the middle. How old are you?

Right now, 37. Oh, so by the time you were in high school, there was some nerd empowerment. When I was in high school, you're still pretty marginalized, you know. And I wasn't a nerd per se, but there was definitely them and us, but, but it seemed like somewhere along the line that because of culture and entertainment product and, you know, and, and also fantasy that, you know, the, the, those communities weren't as marginalized. Well, what was your nerd kind of activity of choice? I wasn't really of the nerds,

but they were still sort of, you know, band, chess. It was the old-timey thing. There wasn't an entire Marvel universe and a proud sort of mass-marketed Star Trek world yet.

Yeah. All these things were still sort of like, what are those guys doing? Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I hadn't, like, kind of, like, yeah, fused with her. Well, no, nerd-dominated culture happened. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

And it was probably by the time, it was probably existing when you were in high school. Yeah, a little bit. I think I was just more of like a movie nerd, though. I was just like kind of blowing through. I was just like, all right, I'm going to watch all the Terry Gilliam movies. I'm going to watch all the whatever. And I did that with my good friends. And we would really honestly just make movies every single day.

And then, you know, we started a movie club in high school. Yeah. There were only three of us. And, yeah. But I don't know. I think my popularity was just, like, I was just kind of inoffensive. And I think I made people laugh. So my superlative was most unique

in, um, senior year. And then I was class president in 10th grade just as an experiment because I saw that two popular kids were running to be class president. And I thought, well, the popular was going to be split and I think people might like me. So I'm just going to try it and see if I can win. And then I won, but I didn't do anything. The story was over. Yeah. And did you like, when you pursued film, did you study film and then work in film before you became you? Um, yeah. I mean, I, I, I went toinghamton university and it's like a suny in upstate yeah and i did a cinema program there uh i majored in cinema like all four years and you know and that was that was a really cool i i really liked it just you know because like that that that program was started by a bunch of experimental film

kind of legends yeah and which ones uh ken jacobs yeah i interviewed his son you know oh cool yeah yeah yeah and you know and like you know you had a lot of the kind of brackage and nicholas ray and all these people right but but it's kind of people don't really think of the program like that as much anymore. Or maybe like people don't care as much about experimental film stuff, but it really changed everything about the way that I, I think about, um, about the moving image.

Opened it up. Yeah. And it was just like, Oh, I need to stop making skit based stuff. I need to like really think materially about the work. I need to think like, likeially about the work. I need to think like, like, like why am I making this? Like, like what, like why, why a movie? Like why

not any other medium? And like, why do I like the moving image? And, uh, it really just like drilled it into me that, um, like, and, and yeah, and I, I, I did stick with it, but it was like a lot of internal processing and stuff. Did you work in any heartbreaking, you know, you know, jobs where, you know,

you became sort of like, what was your, did you seek work within the film world? Um, after college? Yeah. I mean, the, one of the very first jobs i got was like as a pa for this reality show called american gypsy which i don't even think you can like

i don't even never made it you know if that came out yeah yeah it's like sounds really problematic yeah but but yeah i would have to drive a 15 pass, like passenger van of this family from New Jersey that, that was like the family that they were featured. Yeah. And they would fuck with me constantly. Like bullying? They were just like, I would be sitting outside for hours.

And I was like, we'll be right out. We'll be right out. But, but that was like one of the first moments where I saw that the production had rented a restaurant that was supposed to be their restaurant that they owned. And they, they, they,

they rented an auto body shop. They, yeah, that they said, it was all fabricated and I was just like, Oh, yeah. And,

and, and the people that were making the show were just the most awful people. And, and I was like, oh, this world is, is twisted. And like,

I, um, don't think I want to be part of the reality TV world, but it's nice to know what's happening. Right. And you were already interested in documentary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just were already interested in documentary. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I just, and then I started working for a private investigator. Then I was like, that must've been good. That was cool. But also really boring.

Right. And then, what was your job there? I just had to edit all the footage that the actual PIs. Oh, but that kind of,

that had to inform something. Yeah. Oh, that radicalized me in a way for sure. Yeah. And then I was a school portrait photographer. Yeah. Oh, that radicalized me in a way for sure. Yeah. Then I was a school portrait photographer. I would drive around

to different middle schools around Massachusetts and, you know, seven in the morning and had to be the kind of rodeo clown telling all the kids to smile and stuff.

With the backdrop. Yeah, with the backdrop. That's great. Yeah, it felt so strange. Well, all that stuff seems like, you know, it all makes sense, right? When you look at it? Yeah. The intention, though, for you is to be funny.

Mostly. At the end of the day. Yeah, I think that's the... Yeah i think to balance your your your plight yeah whatever yeah stupid plight there is yeah it's just like just because it it's it's a way of connecting with people too. Like I think I do have a lot of social anxiety and the camera is like very much this tool that gives like relationship purpose in a certain way sometimes.

But yeah, like I, yeah, I'm processing stuff. I don't know. Funny. Yeah. I mean, the joke is that stuff. I don't know. Funny. Yeah, I mean, the joke is the, I mean, you know. Yeah, no, I do. It's just like, that's the Trojan horse. That's the best, that's like, once you have them laughing,

then like, there's just, that's just the best feeling in the world. Right, and also, but the poetry, the nature of the poetry, your poetic sense is comedic. Yeah. I think, yeah. I try to just because, you know, there's like a hidden joke inside of everything. Right. And I've just been so bored in so many different environments in my life where I'm just like looking around a room trying to figure out how to make jokes.

Well, that's funny. I don't know who shot you doing at those celebrity events. Oh, yeah, yeah. Or the red carpets. The Emmys, yeah. Yeah, where it's just like, okay, what is interesting in this environment? Right, but there's also just like very, the camera just moves past Ben Stiller or somebody. Yeah, yeah.

And you're in a corner wandering aimlessly. But, okay, so to close up, though, in that final episode about the cryogenics, which I found very interesting because, you know, no matter how elaborate the freezers are, you know, that it really becomes apparent that it's a grift of some sort. Yeah. I mean, they. What's the name of the company? Alcor. Yeah. They are, I just find them so fascinating.

You know, it's like I had heard of cryogenic stuff before, but I'd never been, I never talked to anyone that signed up. So when I encountered those people in Arizona, like, I just found it so fascinating. And I wanted the viewer to be able to also relate with them and not just like kind of criticize them. No, I didn't feel – I felt like the people that were doing it and the reasons why, you know, it is sort of, you know, this idea of a future where reanimation is possible. Yeah. But like – and also, you know, people's beliefs are people's beliefs and it all kind of combines. But when it turns where, you know, where the presentation turns to like, you know, well, you sign your, you get a life insurance policy and you can get up to three. Yeah.

That you realize like this place could crap out. Like, you know, if it goes bankrupt, those tanks are just sort of like, what are we going to do with this shit? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You, you, you, they, they could, they could sell you off. Or just throw you in the garbage. Yeah.

Or yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just, just, just blend you. It doesn't throw you in the garbage. Yeah, or yeah, exactly. Yeah, just blend you. It doesn't really. Yeah, yeah. There's no guarantees, especially when you're thinking of a timeline. And you're dead. That fast.

Yeah, and you're dead. But at the same time, what I find so relatable, I don't know. I'm personally not a very religious person. And this is the most practical version of an afterlife. I could, I, I, you could think of to me if it's like,

if you, if you do want to live longer than nature intended, you know, then this. Yeah. Roll the dice. Yeah. Even,

even if it's, I mean, like, even if it's not practical i mean i i remember reading somewhere that it's like the the science of this is is like it's so far-fetched that it would be like it would be like turning a hand turning a hamburger back into a cow yeah you know it it just it it's, it's really not there yet. Sure, but people want to believe. Yeah, but yeah. And so it's like, it's just the most interesting kind of thought experiment in the world to me.

Just like, you know, do, are you okay with death? Are you like, what is your belief system? Like they all different religions there too, you know? Yeah. And, but they all agreed that, but then you're also, when you are reanimated, you are basically in this room with the same people, you know. Look around. Yeah. So, this is the party. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And. This is the people that have to repopulate the world or whatever. Or no, it wouldn't be that. Yeah. But, but it's like, you have, but it's like you have these, it's like we barely, I don't know why people of the future would want to reanimate this many people.

It's like we barely know what to do with old people now. Right. Yeah, the whole thing becomes dubious. We don't want the old people. Yeah. Like, so it's like maybe if there was someone from. No one's going to come upon those tanks and go, thank God. Yeah.

Like. Yeah. Like. Old people from the past. I know. They're just their heads. Yeah. It's just their heads.

Or. The whole body. Whatever. Genitalialist. Well, that. Like, but that guy. Wait. When he started telling you that story, you must have been like, oh, my God.

Yeah. Because that came out of nowhere. Yeah. That guy who is the caretaker at the cryogenic lab. Yeah, he watches the tanks. Right. And he's this kind of physically hobbled guy. Yeah, he's got a bit of a...

Scoliatic problem. Yeah, yeah. But then out of nowhere, I don't even want to spoil it for people, he tells you this story that I can't even imagine what you were thinking when that started to come out. It was the extended in discussion like kind of talk that we had it was a lot more graphic and oh my god and i had to it was a difficult very difficult thing to cut um like i mean it wasn't difficult to cut it out it was difficult to to watch all of it. Yeah, it was one of the wildest

kind of American stories I've ever heard. And I, but also there's this weird symmetry within the show where- Sure, within that episode. Yeah, and like you have these people that, you know, like his family, they're like, and, or like he's a genealogist and, and, you know, he just, he's constantly thinking about like how his family works so hard to get him there, but he just doesn't want to have one. But I also like relate us, like, you know, like maybe some people don't want to have kids. And obviously this is like a logical extreme, you know.

But did you get a sense of, you know, in the stuff that you cut out, why he did that? It wasn't as much a why. It was more he went into excruciating detail as to how he did it. Oh, my God. Yeah. All right. Well, that's. That stuff I died,

I don't think I need to kind of unleash on the world. And now... Well, that's respectful. I mean, yeah. I went right... You know, as with most comedy,

as with anything, you want to go right to the edge. Well, yeah. The edge was definitely there. It was a sharp edge, I imagine, unless he used a spoon. My God.

I didn't know. He did not mention a spoon. But people can look forward to that as the big closer. Yeah, but, you know, in an earlier episode, you know, in the first season, I have a guy who's trying to regrow his foreskin to maximize his pleasure, you know, and I kind of. Oh, I remember that guy. Yeah, yeah. And I just, I, they feel like kind of.

Bookends? Yeah, like bookends and like opposite superheroes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Oh, that's interesting. And now you've got to get releases from everybody, right? Anyone that talks. Oh, just talks.

I mean, we get releases from a lot of people on the street. But if I'm talking to them directly, it's like 99% of the time there's a release. But, yeah, also sometimes if you're talking to someone and they acknowledge the camera and they know you're filming and you tell them what it's for and that's all on camera. That's enough. Our lawyers are usually okay with that sometimes. Have you had any problems? No, not really. That's good.

No? had any problems no not really that's good uh yeah because i was just wondering what the logistics of of that are and i and i think the cachet of hbo means something which is good yeah and i i think that i i i'm i try to be very delicate about again like what i'm like saying about what you're seeing uh like for with footage of people on the street, you know, I'm, I'm not just going to show a messy guy and just say he's a slob, you know,

that that's like not right. Right. There, there, there's no like, you're not liable. Right. Right.

Whatever. Well, great work. Uh, I think you, uh, have a personal approach, real art in a way.

Um, yeah, I hope I can keep it up. I'm going to try to make something that's kind of similar, but just a slight shift. What, another season or a movie? Just another project. Oh, okay. Yeah.

What's the shift? It might be a slight genre shift. Oh, all right. But, you know, in the way that How To was tutorials. shift. Oh, all right. But, you know, in the way that how-to was tutorials. Yeah. Oh, I see. Still going to be documentary. Yeah, I think so.

I just don't really like working with actors. So I think nonfiction might continue to be my calling. What is it, an ego issue or too much talking? Is it? I just, I don't know. I just, I like to film people that aren't performing as much, you know? It just feels a lot kind of.

More interesting. Yeah. Good talking to you, man. Yeah, you too, man. More interesting. Yeah. Good talking to you, man. Yeah, you too, man.

I like talking to that John Wilson because it kind of got me going. And between me and you, when I brought up Brisson, I was thinking of Henry Cartier Brisson. Henri Cartier Brisson, the still photographer. But he was thinking about Robert Brisson, the filmmaker. But I didn't correct myself because it got him going and I was happy. You know, I like both those guys, but it wasn't the Person I was thinking of.

I don't even need to tell you that. But I did. Hang out for a minute. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snow need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know,

we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. So look, you know my buddy Cliff Nesteroff. I've talked to him many times. He's got a new book coming out, and it's amazing. It's called Outrageous, A History of Showbiz and the Culture Wars, and you can pre-order it now. I mean, it's great. It really covers all of the controversy that has surrounded show business in terms of people talking or saying

things, pushback against that, but the evolution of it from different groups, different points of view, different politics, all the way up through the present and the fucking madness we live in now and where that's really coming from and how it evolved. And this goes back to the 1800s, early 1900s, where actual mobs of Irish immigrants stormed vaudeville playhouses in protest for the way they were being stereotyped on stage. Yeah. Uh, and then all the way full circle to, uh, people claiming that they should be able to stereotype, which was the argument at that time too. It's, it's a fascinating book and it really, it really charts a thing that I didn't, um, have the thorough connect the dots to. And that's really the sort of through line from the John Birch society of the, I believe, the 50s, all the way through to the kind of right wing propaganda machine that's co-opted a lot of

comedy and comics that we hear today in intentionally provoking culture wars. It's a great book. Two years ago this week, back when Cliff was researching the book, we had him talk about what it really means to be canceled in comedy. The reality is, though, throughout history, it's not even a left-right thing. Right. You know, sometimes a right-wing force

might be in favor of censorship. They'll always deny it, but they'll be in favor of censorship. Vice versa. Maybe left-wing's in favor of censorship, always deny it. People kind of want to suppress whatever they disagree with.

It doesn't have to be a political thing this tug of war my point is it's not even a political point yeah is that this tug of war has been going on for the duration of comedy there's always a battle between free speech and censorship there's always a struggle between oppressed groups and the oppressor and they're always jockeying for power and it's cyclical and it goes back and forth all the time red Red Skelton in 1948 complained, you can't joke about anything anymore without people getting upset. Danny Thomas complained in 1958, you can't joke anymore without people getting upset. 1968, again and again and again and again. And it keeps happening. And it's not going to conclude. But this sort of intensified culture, this propaganda

chamber that we're trapped in with social media, with cable news, that is more heightened than ever before. But when you instill fear in people, you can get them to believe any old bullshit. It's how we get into wars. And so this is sort of like a war, but it's a cultural war as opposed to let's invade rack war. But it's still a dis as opposed to let's invade Iraq war, but it's still a disinformation campaign. It's still something of a conspiracy theory. The idea that you can't

say anything anymore. Ooh, they're coming for you. Ooh, they're going to cancel you. No, they're not. The only place in comedy where I can see firm censorship consistently is on network television.

ABC, CBS, NBC. Nobody complains about it. You get booked on The Tonight Show and Michael Cox says, you can't say cunt. You can't say cocksucker. Every comedian goes, OK, I'll take him out because you want to do The Tonight Show. Nobody goes, ah, you're canceling me, PC police. You know, when there is censorship in front of their noses, they seem oblivious to it. But that's still that's corporate censorship.

And like, you know, that the pushback on that is what? You know? Yeah, well, there's no pushback on it. I mean, it's a combination of corporate censorship and the FCC, which is government censorship. So those are your forces of censorship are the government and corporations, not individuals or college students or minorities. That's from episode 1278, Canceled Comedy. And you can listen to that now on whatever app you're using for podcasts. And if you want all WTF episodes ad-free and bonus episodes twice a week,

go to the link in the episode description to sign up for the full Marin, or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. All right, now I'm going to play some guitar. I know, it's similar to the guitar I play all the time. But, you know, I enjoy it. Thank you. BOOMER LIVES Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.