WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1488 - Fisher Stevens

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Fisher Stevens left a lasting impression on Marc in the early ‘80s when Fisher was in Brighton Beach Memoirs on Broadway. Since then, Fisher’s career has taken him from acting to directing to making documentary films, winning an Oscar for The Cove. Fisher talks with Marc about landing himself in director’s jail, what drove him toward making docs, how working with the United Nations led to his role on Succession, and why he needed a different set of tools to make the Beckham docuseries for Netflix. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates!

All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuckateers? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Today I talk to Fisher Stevens. There's a million ways you might know this guy. He's a character actor, and he's been at it for a long time. He's only my age, but he's done a lot. As an actor, he's been in things like Reversal of Fortune, Hail Caesar, a lot of Wes Anderson movies. Recently, he was on Succession as Hugo, the communications manager. He's also a documentary filmmaker who won an Oscar for producing The Cove in 2009. He's the director of the new docu-series on Netflix about David Beckham. But he's memorable.

The weirdest moment, though, is he had a big impression on me, and I talked to him about this, because I went to see Brighton Beach Memoirs. I must have been a year into college. I'm not even sure why. I don't even know what got me to the theater to see a Neil Simon play. But I was there, and he had just taken over

for Matthew Broderick. And I just remember him as being fucking hilarious. And I never really forgot him. Then I'd see him in movies like Flamingo Kid and this and that. I'd be like, that's that guy. And he's always that guy, but you know, he's got a lot of range and he's here. It was nice to talk to him. That memory kind of stuck with me though. Okay. Listen. Starting tomorrow, Friday, I'm in Denver, Colorado, with the Comedy Works South for four shows, Friday and Saturday. Now, they're very close to selling out. The early ones are sold out. But there are some tickets, and I'm not bullshitting you, not many, for those late shows.

So get on that if you haven't. I'm at Dynasty Typewriter in Los Angeles on December 1st, 13th, and 28th. The Elysian on December 6th, 15th, and 22nd. And Largo on December 12th and January 9th. Next year's tour kicks off in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th. Then San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. Portland, Maine at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts outside of Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. And Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th.

Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets. So do I sound better? I feel better. I got to be honest with you. All it takes is getting engaged with the life again, talking to people. And here I've had some great interviews that you can look forward to in the near future or the future in general. Taika Waititi was in here. And I really got lit up for that. I watched a lot of his movies, some of them twice, and I think he's a real genius. So sometimes even when I'm feeling heavy hearted, and this isn't a, it's not a therapy ad. It's just, it is what it is. It's my life. And this podcast is a big part of my ability to stay out of my head, a big part of my ability to stay out of my head.

That and many other things. I find, and I've talked about this before, I get obsessed with little projects just to keep level, man, just to keep level, whether it's cooking a banana bread or trying to fix my boots. I got very upset over some bullshit about boots. I know the world is ending. I know there's tourists. I know the world is ending. I know there's a tourist in trouble in the world, but, uh, but sometimes I just got to stay grounded by getting obsessed

with something mundane and seemingly inconsequential. But the thoughts I've been having in terms of, I don't know, I just wait for them. You know, I just wait for them. And sometimes they give me a window into something or the beginning of a way of thinking. I was in my car yesterday and the old adage that I believe most people are innately good was in my brain because I don't know that I believe that anymore. And it might've been triggered by it being addressed by the protagonist of the new Fincher movie, The Killer. I don't think that most people are innately good.

I do think that most people are innately sad or innately scared. And whatever comes from sadness and fear, it's a, it's a crapshoot. Maybe it could be good, or maybe it could be awful, or maybe it could be somewhere in the middle where it's just mildly exhausting and off-putting. But I don't know about innately good. I think that there is an evolved, almost instinctual compulsion towards compassion that I think some people roll with or some people work against, but obviously the enemy is the mind. Self-preservation based on survival is also an evolved thing, and that can get in the

way of compassion. But usually it doesn't have to because, look, you know, we're just out there living in the world, living in life. All I know is that eventually, for me, once I start engaging with other people, listening to what's going on in their life, feeling the feels, that I can get level again. And I don't know what I would be if I didn't have those. I don't know what I would be if I was isolated. I don't know what I would be if I didn't have a social circle or the ability to go out and do comedy or, or talk to people. I don't know what I would be if I was just at home online, letting the algorithm take me down whatever fucking chasm of hell it chooses.

Well, I don't want to dismiss the fact that, uh, you know, I got something lopped off my forehead by the, uh, dermatologist, but you know, he says, we got to takeopped off my forehead by the dermatologist. But, you know, he says, we got to take a look at that. And I'm like, you know, should I be worried? He's like, no. I'm like, then leave it on my head. Then leave it on the head if it shouldn't be a problem. So I had to wait a week and a half to see.

And I get a call. And it comes up on my phone. The Skin and Beauty, whatever the dermatologist place I go to. And the guy told me if it's nothing, they'll text me. If it's something they'll call. So you get that heart dropping into your guts business. I pick up and it turns out just a sunspot. No problem. And from what I understand, as one gets older, there'll be many more things lopped off uh hopefully things you don't need and hopefully things hopefully things that are benign but nothing changes your day in a more positive way than uh being told not to worry about the thing they sent to the lab. That's for anybody.

So that fear was, uh, quelled. Also, I guess another thing in the plus side is that, um, Charlie beans. Roscoe is,

uh, on the mend more than I would have imagined. Uh, you forget, you know, when a cat gets sick, uh, what an asshole they are,

or he is maybe, I don't know. Maybe it'll pass, when a cat gets sick, what an asshole they are, or he is. Maybe, I don't know, maybe it'll pass, but he's okay now. I can't really track what the fuck caused it, though. I don't know, man. It seems to happen, the two times it happened over the last year where he got this sick and didn't eat and his stomach was fucked up, it happened the day that the house cleaner came. But I lock him in the room now, and she only cleans the floors. And then I use this bonus stuff, and that's supposed to be pet safe, but I can't help but think it has something to do with that.

But he doesn't engage with any other cleaning products. I don't know. I know I'm opening the door to people going, uh, to, to people sharing their experience, maybe with that particular floor treatment, or maybe there'll be many recommendations for pet safe plant-based stuff. But I thought this was the good stuff. Who the fuck knows? All I know is that he's better. And now I'm giving him this probiotic sludge that comes out of a syringe and probiotics, a little bit of pumpkin and some digestive food. But he's eating like a pig and he's back to knocking cans over

filled with sodas of different kinds that I always forget to not leave on the counter. He's back into jumping into cabinets filled with glassware that happens occasionally. He's back to jumping on the bed with a scrunchie ball in his mouth right when I fall asleep. So all systems go with Charlie, and he's looking better. Thank you for asking. The other cats, fine. Everybody is fine. Sammy seems to be affectionate in moments and then mentally challenged in others. And then seemingly fairly zen and zoomy in others. And Buster is very consistently Buster. So that, my friends, is the cat report. Thank you for your concern about Charlie Beans Roscoe.

But we're out of the woods on that. Not sure we were ever in the woods, but when something doesn't eat, it's easy to project. Even when the vet goes, no, don't worry about it. Cats don't have to eat for a year sometimes. I'm like, that's not true. Yeah, you don't have to worry about the thing I'm lopping off your forehead. I'm like, then why are you doing it? Why are you telling me these things? Why? Come on. Fisher Stevens is here. Did I mention that?

As I said before, I've liked Fisher Stevens for a very long time. He's done hundreds of things. I don't know all of them, but he did make an impression on me when I was a younger man and saw him on stage in Brighton Beach Memoirs. Like, I can still remember it. All four episodes of the docuseries Beckham are now streaming on Netflix, which he directed. So now let's talk to him. Let's talk to Fisher Stevens.

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Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. When I watch a doc or I read a book, you know me in a position to lead people.

Because I know. I already know. You know what I mean? And sometimes that's necessary. Sometimes it's not. But when Naomi Klein, I had to read that shit because I had to be in the saddle with that

and not look like a fucking idiot and be able to kind of do the whole thing where personal, political, cultural criticism. I think I held my own. I was very concerned about that one. That one took. Because she's also, I also was a little intimidated interviewing her. What did you interview her for?

For the Dolphin movie? No, for Climate Change, for Before the Flood. I was going to say, for the Beckham movie, did she have a lot of leftist? She was a fucking huge fan of Beckham. She was, she thought she hated him until she saw it and then she,

no, she, I ended up cutting her out of it. Yeah. It was very clinical. Well, yeah, we got it like, with real intellectuals,

it's, if you want to, you know, you want to get personal, you got to get personal first. Yeah. And then see what that, what can happen.

But she's, you know, she's the real deal. she's the real deal. She is the real deal. She's a lot smarter than me. So it was very scary. Yeah. You know, I thought, oh, fuck.

Yeah, but like that one, like I just really needed to show up for that. And I always do. What was I freaking out about the other day? Yeah, I just had, look, there's no interview I do here that I'm not going to stress out about. You know what I mean? Right. I'm not freaking out about you too much. I don't know. I feel like

for some reason we are somehow kindred spirit. I don't know why. Yeah. It's a Jew thing. Yeah. We're the same age almost. What are you? I'm 59. I just turned 60. Okay. I'm about to. Okay. There you go. So we're kindred spirits. Yeah. But like I had

Rodney Crowell on the other day. He's a songwriter. Okay. He's a big country songwriter, been around forever. He's written for Willie. But he's his own guy. But I was freaking out about that. Right.

And you know who's going to really register that? No one. Right, right. But I think the reason why there's some deeper attachment that I have to you is I don't know when you did it, but I saw you in Brighton Beach Memoirs. I saw you. Wow. And I don't even know how I got to that show. Give me a year.

1983, 84. I did it for a year. 83, 84. So I'm in college at that time and i you know i remember seeing it i'm like who the hell is this guy he's very funny he seems like a character and you know and i and i related to it and you know i don't i don't know how i got there why maybe were you acting at that time in college, I was probably trying. I was taking some classes. I was doing some plays.

Right. But I wonder why I ended up there. Wow. Yeah. I don't know. I can't remember how or why. Do you remember that experience? Me being there?

Yeah. You were incredible at the audience. I remember looking at you and seeing you in the audience and going, wait. Yeah. There's something about that guy that reminds me of me. Yeah, that guy's going to be somebody. You know, I have a very funny story to tell you because it's been a thing with me and my friends that I've never done your show until right now. And a couple of my friends, a lot of my friends have been on your show, but particularly my, one of my best friends, Griffin Dunn, I call him up.

I go, Hey, how you doing, man? I go, I go, where are you? He goes, Oh, I'm doing Mark's show again. I'm like, again? I'm like, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, um, yeah.

I said, well, tell him I want to be on. He goes, Oh yeah, I did. No, no, it ain't going to happen. It ain't going to happen. And, and, and no, it's just this funny thing. Yeah. Because I love your show and I've wanted to be on he goes oh yeah I did no no it ain't gonna happen it ain't gonna happen and and and no it's just this funny thing yeah because I love your show and I've wanted to be on your show and I never get the call and and and then I'm in the editing room at Beckham yeah we're editing the doc my uh story producer Al comes in he goes oh you're you're mentioned in Mark Mark Marin's show yeah and I'm like what what? And we play it and it's Jay Smith Cameron

who I work with on Succession and you said literally something like, I don't know why my name came up but you said, Fisher,

I want, I think, I don't even remember if he's been on my show or not. You literally said that and my editor, Michael Hart,

who's one of your biggest fans, he's like, oh my God because I would come in and I'm like, fucking Mark Maron won't have me on the show. I'm really fucking pissed. He never allowed me on the show. So we had this whole funny running gag going. But that's hilarious because I don't know,

that's a deeper problem with Griffin Dunn because I can't imagine. No, no, Griffin was kidding. Oh, no, no, by the way, he was totally bullshitting. It wasn't, no, no. I didn't even know he totally bullshitting. It wasn't a, no, no. I didn't even know he was on twice. So he was on for one and then he came back for Dick? I don't know.

But he loves, he just loved to. Funk with you? Yeah, we do that to each other. We're great friends. You know, I'd call him up. I'm being like, oh, yeah, I'm hanging out with Keanu and Leo right now, Griff. So I can't talk to you. Yeah.

Even though I'm home by myself, like, watching Netflix. Yeah. Yeah. So, no, but it's just been a running gag. So here I am and I'm very excited. There was never any Fisher Stevens, no, I don't want to talk to that guy. Yeah. Never happened.

That's good. I'm glad we're getting this out. I had to get it out. Because I remember when you were on Succession, I was like, that guy. Right. Right. Yeah, you know. And it's funny because my two real memories of you or what I hang on you is that very early. It's not as early as I thought.

I mean, I was already in my 20s. But that. No, you were probably. Okay, so you may have been 19 because we're the same age. I was 19. Well, if it was 84, 81, right, 83, I was probably 20 or 21 because I turned 20 in 83. Okay. Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was probably around there, second year of college maybe. Right, right, right. Huh. So I knew that. Okay. And then there was the other thing

that just hangs in my mind forever is like you dated Michelle Pfeiffer and I was like, man, that Jew's got game. That could have been me. Shit. I don't know if I thought that. I never assumed that. I was never that confident, but I was sort of like, huh, you know, not knowing anything

about it, but good for you. Well, thank you. Yeah. I didn't mean to make it awkward right out of the gate, but those were the two things. That's fine. It's not awkward. I'm just flashing about it in your life. Very good That's fine. Yeah. It's not awkward. I'm just flashing about your life. Very good.

Good memories. Yeah. And I look at your filmography, and you do a movie every 10 minutes, and I haven't seen a lot of them. Yeah. I haven't either. Really? No.

I mean, the acting stuff. Now, what is that about? Okay. So where do you grow up? Where is it? I grew up in Chicago until I was like 12. I moved to Greenwich uh to the meatpacking district with my mother oh okay so in chicago like uh jewish chicago uh yeah well yeah i

born in hyde park yeah then moved to highland park which is yeah right sure then then moved to connecticut then back to evanston and then to evanston yeah evanston well which is a great town and uh i know that place i used to do a theater down the street from there in rogers park to Evanston and then to... Evanston. Yeah, Evanston, which is a great town. I know that place. I used to do a theater down the street from there in Rogers Park, the main stage. The main stage. It was a weird little place. But Evanston's where the school is, right?

Northwestern. Yeah. My sister lives there now. Yeah, it's like a little town built for people with a little money. It's on the lake, but there's other parts of Evanston that are not as nice. Yeah, the dicey parts of parts of evanston dicey parts of evanston yeah but so so what happened you got brother sister i have two sisters so my mother uh was uh was an uh art wanted to be an

artist was a painter and uh took me and my sisters in the middle of kind of in the middle of a night sort of thing to New York City. What? Yeah, it's a long time. Your mom was a painter? Yeah, she was an abstract expressionist painter. How was she? I thought she was good. She lacked confidence.

Yeah. When we lived in Connecticut, she shared a loft in 1971 and 72 with Marilyn Minter, who became a very well-known, is a very well-known artist. They had a loft together. It's a rough racket. It's a, I mean, you think acting is... No, no.

Art is the hardest. It's the hardest. I dated a painter for years. My mother was also sort of a failed painter. Really? Yeah. My mother, you know, it's a sad thing to sort of see that, you know, that this is what she wanted to do. And she would paint all the time.

But when she finally went back to school for her master's, you know, I was already out of the house. She was in her 50s probably. And just couldn't, didn't have the confidence to hang in there with all the young people. That's the problem. My mother really also got into New York City, the life, the Studio 54, the going out. I mean, that was the time. Yeah. So why did she kidnap you and your sisters? Because my father would have never let, they were split, but he would have never wanted her to move. And she moved us into basically a gold plating factory that she bought with her boyfriend.

In New York? Yeah, on 13th and Hudson. Now it's very expensive. It's across the street from what is now called the Gainesvort Hotel. Sure, I know that place. I know. It turns out a buddy of mine I went to college with, I had no idea. Freshman year of college.

I just saw him recently. Like I had no idea about his life, really. And it turns out his grandfather was a butcher in the meatpacking district, and they own like half the real estate. Oh, wow. That's a good friend. Well, I mean, I just didn't know that that,

you know what I mean? All of a sudden you find stuff like that out. But what did they know? It was garbage back then. It was garbage when I lived there. Yeah. What was it like? Do you remember it?

Very well, Very well. Very well. It's like a heavy gay cruise, right? Heavy gay Puerto Rican, and then Puerto Rican people bashing gay people and gay people. And these are your earliest memories? Like you ate? Well, no, no. I was 12, 13, 14.

Was Florent there? No. Not yet. Wasn't even there yet. But I remember blood dripping in the streets. Not human. Cow. Oh, yeah, because they were still doing the business.

They were still doing the business. You still see the cows hanging. But it was vibrant. It was exciting. I was mugged a couple times in the hood. At 12? 13, 14. Were they going after $6?

They wanted my bus pass or a couple bucks. It was ridiculous. Yeah. Just other kids. So you stayed there for a while and then- And we moved. We lived there for like, actually, well, the reason I got into acting was because my mom was dating an actor who was also a maitre d'.

So she's living with Minter? No, this was the earlier years and then and then we moved she she we she came back to new york it's kind of complicated well did you have to go back to evanston because your dad legally he wanted us back at evanston uh he wanted us back to chicago but then my mom was like fuck this we're gonna go to new york with the kids yeah with alan her boyfriend you're you're gonna go to school there. And she just took us. And it was, my sisters, let's say they were 10 and 8. So it was not a great scene for them to live. Yeah. I was, you know, 13-ish, 12, 13. So it was not the greatest scene to raise kids in a gold plating factory turned into a you know a loft so um a space right but

was it like literally like there was no functioning plumbing for an apartment you had urinals and stalls so literally i could have a conversation with my mother in the in the stalls yeah if i if i needed to urinals and stalls yeah and um she would spread her canvases in the back. So it was a real squat loft. It was sort of. It was like that. Yeah. And then my dad is like, no way. And he took my sisters back to Chicago and I stayed with my mother.

Oh, what did your dad do? He was a salesman. In Chicago. So they went and grew up in a regular place. Yeah, I had a beautiful life in Highland Park until I was nine. And then the madness started moving around and stuff. But it was exciting, right? It was exciting once we landed in New York.

Then I was excited. I would say that the interim going to Connecticut back to Evanston was not exciting. It was kind of like, where are we going to stay? Where were you in Connecticut? Stanford, Connecticut. Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah. I thought it was going to be nice suburban life, and it was— No, it's not that great. No. So who is this actor? This actor.

Alan. Alan. Do you remember when you saw me at Brighton Beach, there was a really famous theater restaurant called Sam's or Charlie's on 45th street where all the actors would go okay so alan was the maitre d okay one of them yeah and uh that and he never you know he he would get like a a role in jesus christ superstar in a touring company or little things it wasn't going well yeah um but he did have an acting class that he studied at and that class lost its lease uh where to teach so they ended up starting when my sisters went back with my dad yeah they started teaching in our loft come on and then they because of because alan was in the class alan was in the class and the acting teacher dan fossey uh he loved the space he loved this the area was cool And, and they built a stage in my living

room. And that is how I became an actor because there were three or four classes a week in my house. Come on. In the loft. Wait now. So yes. Dan Fossey. I don't know who, if anyone's brought him up before, was he a guy? He was a guy. He had a, his most famous, uh, Danson, who was in the class and got cheers when he was in the class. I just did his podcast. Oh. A few weeks ago. You could have brought up Dan Fossey. They were very close for many years.

Yeah. And he's a great, he's just a great. Who, Danson? Yeah. Good guy. Good guy. I think he's a little hard on himself. Oh, interesting.

Dan would always probably say that to him, but yeah. You remember seeing him as a kid? I do. I remember meeting him. He was like the first, probably one of the first famous people I met because he got famous really fast. And so what's going on in the house? You're just hanging out, you know, and there's a stage in the middle of your house.

Yeah. Your mother's painting. My mother, no. And then she started giving up. She started working as a receptionist at galleries thinking, oh, this is going to help my career. No. I mean, she's like Heron Allen.

Yeah, he's a maitre d' at an actor's bar. And then she became a co-check at the restaurant. Money was scarce, and it was just a crazy time. And we'd have all these people in our house. But was it like one of those things where there's parties, there are artists hanging out? It became that. Yeah, it did.

And I was 14, 13, 14 years old, man, and it was like being around that was crazy. Grown-ups acting like fucking monsters. Children, grown-ups acting like children, and children having to act like grown-ups. Yeah, yeah. And that's, yeah. Walking around cleaning up the mess.

Not quite, but almost. Yeah. So what was the type of acting that you were witnessing? Was it scene study? Yeah. Do you remember a thing called Est? Yeah. Yeah.

So Dan. Werner, what's that guy's name? Werner Erhardt. Yes. Yeah. Dan was a kind of seminar leader as well as an acting teacher. Yeah. This is, see, this is where it all starts.

You know, this is where that reputation of certain acting coaches being cult leaders or having a cult, because there's some of that out here too, whether it's Esther, it's the other one, Landmark Forum or whatever. Well, Landmark Forum was Est. Well, Landmark Forum was EST. Yeah, it became. That's what EST became. Yeah. But like there is, so that's interesting because this must be a very early version of that.

Yeah. Was he applying those principles to you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was, I believe at the time I was the youngest person to do the EST training, the adult, because it was a kid's training and an adult training. And I did it when I was 13 because of this guy. What did that involve?

It involved two weekends of your life, 9 a.m. to God knows 1 at 2 a.m. And then you wake up and then you get there the next morning. And if you're late, they go, you're late. I go, oh, I missed those. But is that one of those things where you can't pee? Yeah, that's it. That's it. And you have to share in front of people and you raise your hand.

What have you got to share? You're fucking 14. I knew nothing. I knew nothing. I know. I know. And she yelled at me. I remember the train.

Yeah, it was awful. But anyway, Dan was a part of that. And I got very involved in it. I started going to seminars. I was in high school. Yeah. And I was very involved in it. I started going to seminars. I was in high school. And I was studying acting then. I started studying with Dan at 14 years old. Well, so now in retrospect, you know, because like, you know, Seinfeld was a Scientologist for 10 minutes.

But there are some people in, you know, William Burroughs also, you know, studied Scientology as a whatever, as the weirdo he was, as an intellectual. Wow. But both of them were able to sort of say that there are ideas here or there are tools that one can use. But do you find that there were things you learned in Est that were helpful? Absolutely. Yeah? And that fucked me up.

I'd say both. A lot of value out of Est, a lot of like taking responsibility for your life, making you feel like I'm not a victim. I can actually turn shit around. But also I think it makes you hard on yourself at the same time. Like, oh, I fucked this up. You don't think that was going to happen anyways with your dad in Chicago and your mom having parties at the house? Yeah, that would have happened anyway. True. So maybe S was more positive. No, but I do think it was

more positive. Yeah. But it was weird. I realized at 17, like, what the fuck? I'm brainwashed. I got to get the fuck out of here. And I cut it. That was it. So you studied acting for three years in your house. Yeah. Went to S seminars. Yeah, and was in high school. Yeah. And worked at 16. I started working. Were you a PS what?

No, I went to Brooklyn Friends. Oh, that's fancy. Yeah, it was very good. How'd you get there? That must have been early on in that thing. It was good. Brooklyn Friends. My teachers were all conscientious objectors during Vietnam because it was 77.

So the war just kind of ended and there was a Quaker school and it was very reasonably priced at the time. Yeah, very, very reasonably priced. So it's kind of a progressive school environment. Yeah.

English teacher talking about weed, getting high. I remember those, you know, studying Bruce Springsteen lyrics, I remember. You know, like really weird. You're taking acting classes in your apartment, you're going to Est, and then you've got groovy teachers.

It was weird. That's great. It sounds like a great New York upbringing. It sounds like a life that can only be given to you in that city. Only in that city. Sure. And sounds like a life that can only be given to you in that city. Only in that city. Sure. And, you know, that city,

you're from Jersey City, but you... Well, I mean, I grew up in New Mexico, but my people are from Jersey. Yeah, yeah. But, like, I always went to New York,

you know, I mean... Right, so you remember, like, New York at that time... In the 70s? ...was free. It was, you were free. I mean, it was dangerous, but you were free.

There was no... Well, yeah, and people would just let their kids get on the train. And do whatever. I used to take the bus in from my grandmother's to Port Authority when I was, you know, it must have been, I was like 14, mid-70s. And she's like, all right, have fun. You get off the bus at Port Authority as a kid. Yeah, and remember some of the shit you saw.

It's crazy, dude. Yeah. It was crazy. I know. It's crazy, dude. It was crazy. I know. I was doing a play when I was like 18 on 42nd Street in Theater Row at the time, like $24 a week.

And I saw a crowd around this thing. And I look, and there's a decapitated person that people are looking at. There's no head on the body, just laying there. Really? Yeah, it kind of horrified me. But that was like crazy. That was New York. Yeah, I remember, I was older.

It was probably around the same time I went down to see Brighton Beach Memoirs. I remember going into a peep show booth and watching two people fuck on a rotating table through a window with a bunch of other idiots in windows. And I was like, this is it, man.

This is what makes New York great. All gone now. No more decapitated heads in Times Square. No more fucking on the spinning tables. Man, it's not what it used to be. No. I can't stand going into Times Square now. I've learned to, like, you know, I don't go there much,

but I'm trying to get an apartment in the city right now, as we speak, to have and go to. Because I figure if I'm going to die, why not die there? It's like I had this moment where I'm like, I'm looking at places, you know, to have a second place or retire or like slow down. I'm thinking of the country. I'm like, what am I going to do there? Why not go to New York where, you know, I can just see, it takes five minutes to do anything. You can eat, you can see friends, you can go to two shows, you can go to a museum all in one day. And you can walk outside and you're not alone. Fuck it.

Where are you looking? E-Village, of course. Anything. You can hang out with Griffin. Sure. I can hang out with Griffin. I can hang out with Philip Glass. He's sitting there at the cafe. Somewhere. Yeah. But no, it feels pretty vital. He's sitting there at the cafe. Somewhere. But no, it feels pretty vital. Again, you live there now, right? I live in Brooklyn. I live in Clinton Hill,

Fort Greene. I've been in Brooklyn like 20 years. Really? Before it was Brooklyn? Before it was cool? It was starting to get cool. I can't remember time anymore. Yeah, it was starting. But no, no. I know. It's changed. Oh, but Times Square. But no, no, I know it's changed. Oh, but Times Square, I've grown to appreciate it like one would appreciate Tokyo.

Like, you know, because in my mind, you know, when you, you know, if you're nostalgic for the dirt and the filth and the time when, you know, New York was broke. That's one thing because it's romanticizing a type of lifestyle. But I think Times Square now is actually closer to what it was supposed to be originally. When they had this vision. That's right. Yes. You're absolutely right. So I think it's kind of manifested.

It's not attractive. But when you go there, there is a buzz available as a sober person from all that light. From all that. Like you just go there and you're like, oh, my. The spectacle of it is effective. But, you know know i'm not eating there or anything no and uh i went to the theater the other night what to see what i saw pearly revisited which is a great experience yeah you know what it is about no ozzy davis wrote it in 1961 um was married to ruby d i think he was understudying uh sydney poitier and Raisin in the Sun, I think.

Yeah. And he wrote this play while he was doing it, and it's so ahead of his time. It was a very white, a lot of white people in the audience, and it made you feel uncomfortable at times. Oh, yeah? Yeah. That's what you want. And it's what you want. And Leslie Odom and this woman, Kara Young, turn in these performances that are just mind-

Everybody's great. So when do you start doing that? Like, so you say you left. What did you do at 17? Where'd you go? Oh, at 17, I just was trying to make it. I quit school, quit high school. You didn't finish high school?

No. I got my GED. Yeah. I quit high school. You didn't finish high school? No. I got my GED. Yeah.

But I was working as a busboy and as a bike messenger, making a very good salary and studying acting. Delivering weed? No, delivering headshots and resumes for agencies. Okay. Your whole family is just like adjacent to the business you want to be in. But not at all in it. Exactly. Not in it.

I mean, my mom worked at this restaurant with Alan and we'd get free theater tickets for the previews, they were called. They're still doing it. And they'd give them away and I'd go to everything.

My mom would be like, I got you free. Sweeney Todd is going to open. Check it out. And you know, all these new shows. And so I was getting close. Yeah.

And then they'd all come in, the actors, to eat after their shows at the restaurant. I'd say, oh my God. So it was getting closer and closer. And then I got my SAG card when I was 16. It was a horror film for the summer called The Burning. Yeah. And it was...

Who was in that? Holly Hunter's The Burning. Yeah. And it was... Who was in that? Holly Hunter's first movie. Yeah. Jason Alexander's first movie. Wow, yeah. Brian Backer, who wins the Tony the next year to play Woody Allen. He looked like Woody Allen.

Yeah. And Ned Eisenberg, great friend of mine who just died, loved him, was in it. And it was like a slasher movie, and it was produced by these brothers who were getting into the movie business named Harvey and Bob Weinstein. It was their first movie.

So I got that and I'm like, I'm taking off, man. I'm going to be- Big part. Yeah, big part, pretty big. And I thought that was it. And then I didn't get another job for a couple of years. Yeah. But you did no stage work either?

Oh, I did a lot of stage. But stage, like, you know, not enough to make money. But, oh, tons, tons of plays. Off, off Broadway, off Broadway, off. Now, like, at that time, I can't, you know, generationally, I mean, were you working with guys that, you know, you could learn from or became big actors? Well, yeah, I was. I did a play called Geography of a Horse Dreamer, Sam Shepard play. And there was a guy in it who was one of the best actors. His name was Bobby Pastorelli, who ended up also dying. But he starred with Candice Bergen in that TV series for years. Murphy Brown?

Murphy Brown. Yeah. But before the play, there'd always be guys in the dressing room, strangers. Yeah. And he was dealing coke before the show. He'd have his customers meet in the dressing room, dealing coke while, I can say this because he's gone, but he was. But that guy taught me a lot. I watched him. He was one of the most exciting, brilliant actors.

The difference between, he taught you the English measurement scale? No, not that part. And it wasn't like he did coke before he went on stage. Yeah. But after, I'm sure he did. But yeah. But he taught you like what? Just his fearlessness.

He was just this. That's coke. It might have been. Might have been. Okay. Maybe I would know. But he was like one of the people that I looked up to. And he would just do different things every night.

Yeah. You know, actors have to take risks. This guy was like all those guys in that show. Yeah. But I wasn't working at that. You know, the best thing I got was William Friedkin directed me in stage, two stage readings at the Actors Studio and I got to work with him

and Glenda and Ellen Burstyn. Oh, really? That was my, For what? They were, believe it or not, a musical about

the Jewish ghetto, about Loach. Oh, yeah? Which was, Never Got Made? Francis Fisher starred in it. Never Got Made, she was brilliant.

She was one of the first, also, people I worked with that I was like, her, and then I got the first also people I worked with I was like her and then I got to work with Ellen Burstyn who was like

another level yeah so they but they were they were like week productions like I only got to work for a week

but it did show you what the task and the possibility of what a working actor looks like at all levels right

it does and you see but you can see like who's great who's great who's at other levels, right? It does. And you see, but you can see, like, who's great, who's at other levels. I mean, you did so much stage work. There's also stage great and film great. And a lot of times stage great stays there.

That's right. Right? It's a very different craft. Yeah. Yeah. But was any of this stuff you learned as a kid applicable? A lot. Dan taught me a lot.

Dan taught me about being fearless. Dan taught me about being confident, about when I get on stage, taking the stage. And, and then, um, and I got into Uta Hagen's class. It was another, uh, amazing teacher. And then who was in that class with you? You know, it was the cast of almost the whole cast of dream girls at the time. Cheryl Lee Ralph, Andy Curtis Hall, Oba Baptenandu. They were all in that class. Yeah. And a guy named Gareth Williams. I don't know if you've seen him in LA.

He's a big LA theater guy now. Now, like Uta Hagen, you're sitting with her. She's got to be old at that point, right? She was probably 70. She's one of the big method people. She has her own method, yeah. Like you come to class.

This is what I loved about these classes. They were so intense. You'd do a scene and you'd bring props. You. Like you come to class. This is what I loved about these classes. They were so intense. You do a scene and you'd bring props. You'd bring shit from your house. Right. And you'd be, you'd basically like recreate the room. Yeah. And, and.

Oh, interesting. And rehearsals were very intense with your. For just scene study. Yeah. For scene study. And it was like, she wanted you to feel like what it was like to be performing. She made this, she scared the shit out of us. But also the practicality of making the stage real enough to inhabit as a real space.

Yes. Right? Yes. Because that seems to be the trickiest thing. I mean, like, you know, you can, when I think about acting and what little I know about it from talking to actors, like there's the idea that the script's going to carry you no matter what if I know about it from talking to actors, like there's the idea that the script's going to carry you no matter what, if you believe in it, like you got the mammoth school, which is like any idiot can do this, just say the lines, but ultimately

it's stiff. It doesn't work. No. But then to inhabit, not just a character, but a space, I think inhabiting the space is actually harder. It's, and it becomes like, to to me it's one of the basis of my acting now from that and the other thing she taught us was you gotta come in you prepare the first five minutes like crazy so that you're once you're in you're in so she you'd start the scene

she go stop go back stop go back yeah so that you're so in it right at the beginning and then it'll it'll push you through. And it just gives you those kind of neural pathways, those chops. Yeah. You know, to sort of like, because obviously when you get onto a movie set or onto a big Broadway production,

you're going to be freaked out. But, you know, if you've done all this other stuff. It helps. At some point it'll kick in. Yeah. So when do the movies start coming? Well, before that, to be honest, the reason I got my first break was Matthew Broderick.

Was because of the show I saw, no? But the one before we did, I say we did because he was in a show called Torch Song Trilogy. Right, sure. I talked to him. Yeah. Oh, Harvey? Yeah. Harvey, yeah, I love you. That was a great one. Oh, he's amazing. I read his book. That's a. Yeah. Oh, Harvey? Yeah. Harvey. Yeah, I love you. That was a great one. Oh, he's amazing. I read his book. That's a good book. Oh, I love his book. Yeah, I love it. But to think the history of him in experimental theater of the late 60s, I mean, like you

didn't, like, you know, people know Torch Song and they know, it's sort of a, it's the mainstreaming of gay culture in a way, right? But, you know, he was a real deal. Oh, he, he. He was a dirty boy that was hanging out with La Mama when it started and with Warhol and with... That was great. He is a real

trend. I mean, he changed theater. He really did. He changed culture. He did. He did. I love Harvey. So it's you and Broderick. So Broderick is doing the play and I run into him and I knew him because we were, you know, I, we knew each other in high school. You're still friends? Still great friends. Oh, you went to high school, Brooklyn. But I went to Brooklyn friends. He went

to Walden, but we had mutual friends. I was in love with this girl at his high school. It didn't work out. Of course, Matthew got her. I didn't, but yeah. Anyway, that's a long story. But so Matthew says, Hey man, I'm, uh, I'm leaving the show Torch Song and it may move to Broadway. Um, and I'm like,

well, to do Bueller, to do the other show that you saw me in. Oh, to do Brighton Beach. Yeah. And,

and, and he got me, I, I didn't have an agent even at the time. So, cause I thought, I thought my career was over

after the horror film. I couldn't get anything. So, that was it? You thought you were done? I thought I was done. You gonna horror film. I couldn't get anything. That was it? You thought you were done? I thought I was done. You're going to get a new bike? Yeah.

Yeah. So anyway, he gets me the audition, and I got the job. And then he was leaving. I did Torch Song for a year, and it moved to Broadway. It was great. And then I got Brighton Beach he said I'm leaving this

I'll get you an audition then I even had an agent by then but he got me he pushed for me to do Brighton Beach and then I did Brighton Beach

and then I couldn't like it's weird I kind of knew who Broderick was I couldn't even picture him in it I thought that was

your show I think so too but then yeah and then you know why what picture him in it. I thought that was your show. I think so, too. But then, yeah. You know why? Because you're a Jew. Yeah. Well, he's half a Jew. It doesn't count. No, it required, like, there's a sensibility. I could see him doing it.

He was great. Yeah, of course. But there's a sensibility to the Simon things. I know. I had such fun doing it. Oh, my God. I had fun doing that show. Did you work with Neil at all? Yeah. Oh, yeah? Yeah, of course. But there's a sensibility to the Simon things. I know. I had such fun doing it. Oh, my God, I had fun doing that show. Did you work with Neil at all? Yeah. Oh, yeah?

Yeah, yeah, I did. And then he, I actually did one of his movies, Marrying Man, afterwards. And I improvised one day, and he gives me this thing, he calls me over with the finger, Fisher, come here. And I'm thinking, oh, he fucking this thing. He calls me over with the finger. Fisher, come here. And I'm thinking, oh, he fucking loves my shit. Yeah, I'm the guy.

And Paul Reiser's going, oh, he doesn't call me over. And he goes, Fisher, you rewrite one more line, you're going to walk the unemployment line. Wow. And I come back, and I tell Paul that, and he's like, ah! Yeah. Reiser doing his early stuff. Yeah, yeah.

He wanted out of comedy. Oh, Reiser? Yeah, yeah. He's just like, I'm going to be an actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, well, Diner. Well, Diner was big. Yeah.

I mean, that was a life changer, that one. But he's older than us. Yes, yes. Well, my first real good movie role was because I did, Gary Marshall saw me in Brighton Beach. Gary Marshall? He's another guy that has a way of talking. I know.

A fish out. Okay, now you move over here on the line like that. He's still in the Bronx, even though he's been in Hollywood for 400 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he saw Brighton Beach and cast me in- Flamingo Kid? Flamingo Kid.

You were great in that. I was just remembering that. That was Matt Dillon, right? Matt Dillon, who, talk about film acting. That was the first time I watched a guy and go, holy shit, he's doing a whole other kind of acting that's brilliant. Because Matt, at that point, he'd already mastered film acting. Yeah. I mean, and I was like, holy.

From my bodyguard up. Yeah, my bodyguard. And then Rumblefish. Yeah. Yeah. And outsiders. Yeah. And I was like, holy shit, this guy has a whole, he blew my mind.

Like, what was it? First of all, I was a theater guy, so i was very big and i had to come way down and and matt just like the camera like we were all very aware of the camera but for whatever reason matt was able to just forget the camera but know exactly where to look and how to look and not to he just inhabited just inhabited, I don't know. He blew my mind as an actor. Well, that's, that's the interesting thing. And I never think about anything other than like getting through it and making the choices,

being present, listening. And, you know, like I have the time when I do anything, you know, even if the camera's right in front of me, I don't know what camera is mine. But it's just irresponsible. But I talked to Jeff Daniels, and he really was like, he was in my face. He's like, as a screen actor, you have to learn how to use your face. Because he's like,

90% of screen acting is your face. Yeah. And I never thought of that. Yeah. And my mouth's always hanging open halfway. No, it's true. It's true. And Matt embodied that.

Yeah. And Matt was like at a, that was like a whole other level for me. Uh-huh. And I just was like, holy shit, I've got to rethink the way I do things. But also like at that time, you know, these were comic parts, you know?

I mean, I guess his had a little bit more depth or whatever, but, I mean, but you knew the parameters of your character. I knew the rhythms. Right. I knew the rhythms, but it was the way, I just had to come down, you know? Yeah. When you're doing the Broadway,

because I actually was on Broadway at night, and then I'd come and do that at the day. You know, so it was like. Were they shooting on the island? Far Rockaway. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it was cool. Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

So then as things go on with the film stuff, I mean, was there a point? Because, like, you're a guy that's a character actor, I would say. Yeah. Right? So you're going to be the guy they go to for that guy. Yeah. And were there points outside of, you know, the Flamingo Kid where you're like, this is it? Like when you're on a set and you're like, holy fuck.

You never get, once the movie ends, you get nervous. Like, and then, you know, you start auditioning and you start seeing all these guys. And now, like, it's funny. I've listened to a bunch of your podcasts. Yeah. And people, they go, oh, I was so, you know, back then I was in a hurry or I didn't appreciate what I had. You know, it was a lot of that. It was a lot of that. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. It was a lot of, like, what's next, you know? Well, you like to work. I like to work. And I was in a hurry. Yeah? For some reason. In a hurry to what?

Just get more, get more, get more? Yeah. Not make choices based on. Yeah. That might not be a hurry for some reason. In a hurry to what? Just get more, get more, get more, and not make choices based on, that might not be a good thing to do. Or like, why don't I take a month and go to Paris or do something or chill out? There was no chilling out. It was like, what's next, what's next? That's why I changed my life

because I didn't want to just be sitting around. So watch it. And you think you're going to do something. Maybe they've actually figured out that they can do things. I think some people got into acting because of that time. It's like, I just go out there for five minutes in like in three hours. Yeah.

So now maybe I'm going to read a book. Yeah. All I do is sit in a trailer going, what the fuck could they be doing? Yeah. What, when are they cutting to me? God,

I got to go. I got things to do. How long does it take to set up this shot? They're in the same place. I know. I know. I know. Yeah, well.

So, but you did do a lot of movies. I did. I did. And I did a lot of movies and playing a lot of different characters. But, I mean, you're working with people like, you know, you're working with, who is it, Jeremy Irons. Oh, yeah. I mean, like this,

like, that was a good movie. Yeah. Reversal of Fortune is a good movie. Yeah. Again, my scenes were with Ron Silver, another guy.

He's an angry little man. Right. But he, at that time, was at top of his game and was like a fucking beast to work with. He was so prepared. He was so good.

He was so focused yeah it was a blessing i love to pick up things um i don't know what happens you know i i i started getting offered a lot of television series yeah and i turned them down uh thinking tv is beneath me and and then i saw all my friends start taking TV shows and rich and, and then getting big movies. And then I, and then I was like, Oh shit,

I got to do TV. And, and it, you know, what'd you end up on? My first show was called Key West. Um, and it was one of Fox's first shows and it was really,

believe it or not, it was about a, uh, a bar that, uh, Jennifer Tilly's a madam and her prostitutes worked at the bar. And I was a writer for a newspaper that Ernest Hemingway used to work for. And I wanted to be Ernest Hemingway.

Okay. A young Ernest Hemingway. And how long did that last? 13 episodes. Yeah. In Key West in the early 90s. Wait a minute. Did you do soap operas?

I did soap operas. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was my big, those were my big claim to fame first. Yeah, Ryan's Hope is the first time I spoke on a soap opera. I had lines. It was incredible. Yeah? I actually tripped one day and made it a comedy,

and I was one of the early comedic roles on a soap opera. Okay. Was that a recurring? Yeah, that was a recurring during high school. Oh, so that's where it really starts. Yeah, I forgot about that. Jesus, I haven't thought about that in so long. I was a recurring.

I think I did maybe eight episodes. They offered me a contract. Yeah. And I said no. Yeah. I just couldn't. What was shooting a soap opera? They're just like churning it out, right?

Oh my God, every day. I can't imagine. Do they even exist anymore in the form they used to? They're just like churning it out, right? Oh, my God. Every day. I can't imagine. Do they even exist anymore in the form they used to? You're looking at a prompter, right? Your lines are on the prompter. No shit. Yeah. I mean, I never had more than four or five lines.

Yeah. But, yeah. But it was really exciting. But it's interesting because, all right, so you decide to do TV and then you're popping up in all these different TV episodes. Oh, now I love TV. Are you kidding? TV's changed. It's a whole different world. Yeah, but you did Friends.

I did Friends. You know, you did Frasier. Yeah. Good ones. Good ones. Yeah, yeah. Good ones. I'm only reading the ones I recognize. There's another 40. What about Mr. Vegas? Dr. Vegas. That was at a low point when I had no money and I was desperate.

What'd you do with your money? I spent it, not on anything. I don't know. I bought an apartment and actually lost money in Greenwich Village. Can you imagine in the 90s? Oh, really? Yeah. You didn't hold onto it long enough. I did not. Yeah. Dr. Vegas. Yeah, there it is. Yeah. So that was a classic Rob Lowe. Joey Pantoliano, my friend. I was like, Joey, I need some cash. Can you get me a guest spot? That guy's great. Hold on a second.

Hold on, fish. Dude, it was so hilarious when I interviewed him. Oh, he's the best, man. He's the best. And it was like a week before he got into that accident. He got hit by the car. But he was on Zoom because it was the COVID, right? And he didn't know how to work something.

And he's like, what the fuck? He's like, just doing Joey Pants. He's got to get his daughter in there to get the sound to work. And he's losing his shit. He is a legend, man. I love Joey Pants. One night, me and Matt Dillon and Joey and another friend of ours, Brian Collins, we went to Bobbo and we got drunk and there was a snowstorm.

It just started snowing. Yeah. And we're all like dressed nicely. I think we came from some kind of, I don't know, benefit thing. Event. Yeah. And we start having a snowball fight outside and we start throwing snowballs and Joey falls and breaks his collarbone. In the snowball fight.

You must have. It's still, you could still feel. He would have been fight. You could still feel it. He would have been yelling. Oh, he was screaming, I love Joey. But he did Vice Principals. That was good. But this is all later. Yeah, that's later.

Because he started directing at some point. I started directing. I did my first movie in 2001. It was a play that I directed at Naked Angels, this theater company I co-founded. Who was in that? Was that? It was Marissa Tomei was in it, Gina Gershon.

Yeah, yeah. John Robin Bates was a writer. Kenny Lonergan, Frank Boise. Yeah. Matthew Broderick, Sarah Jessica Parker. I think they met. This was a thing that happened in New York. I mean, there were a couple of these companies.

Yeah. Actor-driven companies. Yeah. Well, there was also David Mamet's company. Sure. Atlantic. Atlantic, which a bunch of people left because they didn't like the technique. So they came over to us.

Yeah. So it was interesting. Wow. Because Atlantic was very Mamet-esque. He literally has an approach to acting that is like the least respectful of acting. It's like he's a shit starter. And like there are guys that, you know, the weird thing about actors, I think that some people are just, you know, either you're innately an actor or not. I mean, Macy was there with him at the beginning of The Atlantic.

But I don't look at Macy and think he's a mammoth that, you know, he's a mammoth taught actor. He's, you know, he's just, you know, he's Macy. Yeah. But he does mammoth better than pretty much – I guess it's just innate in him. Well, maybe. Maybe it's just – maybe it is like maybe mammoth just set up a school to only do mammoth plays. I don't know. But Al loves mammoth.

Pacino. He does – he loves doing mammoth stuff and he's great at it. He's still doing it. I think he's great at it. He's still doing it. I think he's still. Well, the thing about Pacino is that he's one of those guys, and I said this to Chastain recently, he's of that generation, but he can still do it.

I think Pacino likes it when he can have a certain thrust, and I think that it satisfies him. Yes. And he's always been that guy. If you give him something where he can go, oh, yeah. Like, he, I think it energizes him. But when he needs to go in, he can still go in. Oh, yeah. Like, he can get very vulnerable and take real risks.

You know, I can't, I cannot get over his portrayal of Jack Kevorkian. I mean, like. It's unreal. It's unreal. It's unreal. It's unreal. Like, he can still do the real work, but I think he likes, you know, swinging his dick around.

Yeah. But if you look at the beginning of him, I just hosted Dog Day at a theater out here. That's the most vulnerable, fucked up movie in the world. It's... The best. I just saw it, too.

He showed it in the Bronx at the big movie theater recently as well. Al did? Yeah, Al did. It was unbelievable. Unbelievable. He's, I don't know,

he's magical, man. All right, well, okay, so he likes Mammoth, but he's not limited to that. No. And Mammoth's written some great screenplays.

I just saw him, you know, because I interviewed him years ago. It was the funniest thing. I was walking out of a haircut in Santa Monica. I never fucking go to Santa Monica ever.

It's just too far away, but yeah, I'm wanting to get a fancy haircut. So I walk out of this place and I see. I never fucking go to Santa Monica ever. It's just too far away. But yeah, I'm wanting to get a fancy haircut. So I walk out of this place and I see someone who could only be Mamet walking down the street. And he's a little bull, kind of like walk, you know, in his sunglasses. And he's walking by. I go, David Mamet.

And he turns around and goes, yeah, thanks. And I go, it's Mark Maron. He's like, oh, oh, yeah. Did you get that book I had sent over? I'm like, I don't even know what to do. What are you talking about? I haven't seen it in years. It was funny.

Yeah, thanks. I've never met him. Oh, really? No. He's a character, dude. Yeah, I know. I can imagine. I mean, I don't know.

I've been reading some crazy shit he's written. I don't know where he's coming from with that, but half of me thinks it's just to start shit. Yeah. I think that guy loves to start shit. Yeah. There are a lot of people like that. Yeah. So you start directing. Yeah. I think that guy loves to start shit. Yeah. There are a lot of people like that. Yeah. So you start directing that play.

I directed a play at Naked Angels and then we adapted it and we made a video kind of movie, a $700,000 movie with Marissa and Ron Eldard. And it was called Just a Kiss and we used rotoscoping. It was kind of arty. It wasn't great.

Actually, Peter Dinklage was in the play and i should have cast him as the lead in the movie and i didn't okay i must i i cast the writer feels like the kind of guy that'd still be mad at you for that i probably yeah i don't know i see him at school drop off he's pretty nice our kids go to the same school okay um but uh then yeah so i directed that thinking i'm going to be a director. And of course, the movie didn't do great. And then I started producing a lot. But then you did that Stand Up Guys movie. And what was the alignment with Leguizamo? Oh, so John and I, we met in 1988.

We did Midsummer Night's Dream together at the Public Theater, Joe Papp. Okay. And I was Demetrius. He was Papp. Okay. And I was Demetrius, he was Puck. Yeah. And he fucking put itching powder in my, he knew I had a quick change, and he put itching powder in my jock.

Yeah. And I started, because I started scratching my balls on stage and I was losing my mind. Yeah. And I realized he fucking did it as Puck because he was in character. Yeah. So I took shaving cream and I shaving creamed his entire dressing room. Yeah. And I realized he fucking did it as Puck because he was in character. Yeah.

So I took shaving cream and I shaving creamed his entire dressing room. Yeah. All over his shit. Yeah. And, um. And if people are wondering, this is how you prepare for Shakespeare.

Yeah. This is doing a major play at, at the public. Yeah. And then, um, we, uh, we both got written up, uh, by the equity deputy and, uh, find and we became great friends. And then we did a Super Mario Brothers movie together. And then I directed him in Ghetto Clown,

which we worked on for three years and toured and then went to Broadway and was a big success on Broadway. And you shot it too? I did it for HBO. We shot it for HBO. That wasn't that long ago, was it? No, it was like 2000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and that long ago, was it? No, it was like 2012. 10 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, and that, again, it's just like, I just love doing different things. Yeah. So, it was a very interesting process. And do you have a production company at that point? That point, I was, I did not. Yeah. At that point, I did not. I've had, I've gone through, like, I'm in my third production company right now.

Yeah. I've gone through, like, I'm in my third production company right now. Yeah. Hopefully I've learned how to, I've scaled everything way down and leaned and mean. Yeah. And, yeah. Well, I mean, Stand Up Guys, you had high expectations out of that, right? Yeah, Stand Up Guys was a weird one because the producer who I really love, Tom Rosenberg, he kind of sat over my shoulder the whole time.

Yeah. And it was not, you know, I would say I would have liked to have maybe done a few things differently. But you're directing like, you know, these big guys. Yeah, and they're awesome. Pacino, Walken. And Arkin. Yeah, Arkin, yeah. I mean, it was a magical experience.

But listen, after coming from the theater and doing what you want to do, it was the first time, A, I had any money to make something, and B, I had a lot of limitations creatively. But Al was great. And every Saturday we rehearsed at Al's house, me and Chris and Al alone. Yeah. And it was, I'd say,

one of the greatest experiences of my life were those rehearsals. And then Alan would come if he had to do his scenes. I mean, that was, to me, the best part of the whole thing was rehearsing at Al's house with Chris and Al and Alan and watching them.

Because Walken, like, he's become onto himself. rehearsing at Al's house with Chris and Al and Alan and watching them. Cause walking, like he's become onto himself. I think he always, well, you do. I think he, yeah,

I think so. I mean, God, he was great to work with though. I mean, why these guys show up, man, they were older than,

and this is like nine years. Um, and they were prepared. They knew their lines. They like were excited. It was amazing. Yeah, sure. And this is like nine years. And they were prepared. They knew their lines. They were excited. It was amazing. Yeah. It was amazing. The process was worth whatever happened.

Yeah, it was worth, but it put me in for whatever reason. I still think the movie's okay, but it put me in a bit of a director's jail. Really? Yeah, I couldn't really. Because why? Because there was money involved? Well, I thought I'd at least get to shot or get an agent. Yeah.

But then the good news for me was that it drove me deeper into documentaries, which I love doing. And I was deep in before. Yeah. But then I just kind of, you know. What were the first documentary? I mean, I know The Cove, my first got the Oscar, right? Yeah. But my first documentary was,

um, actually about soccer in America. It was called once in a lifetime. It was when Pele, Beckenbauer, uh, Roberto Carlos and Georgia Canalia came to New York to play for the New York cosmos.

And it was a story of trying to build the national NASL soccer league. It was a story of trying to build the National NASL Soccer League. And it was a really cool movie about this Hollywood studio executive, Steve Ross and Ahmaud Erdogan, who ran Atlantic Records, who tried to turn the league into something and build something. And try to get Americans to give a shit. To give a shit about soccer, which it just didn't happen. So that was how many years ago? That was in 2003, we started, 2004.

And then that was very, you know, we had very successful sale. How do you get from there to dolphin fishing? Well, then I did Crazy Love. Have you seen Crazy Love? Which one was that about? About the couple from the Bronx in 1959 who fall in love and he's a 32-year-old lawyer. She's an 18-year-old secretary.

He says he'll marry her, but he's married with two kids. He gets heart... He's crazy, heartbroken. He hires these guys to throw acid in her eyes. They blind her, bald her. He goes to jail for 14 years, writes her love letters, and he comes out of jail and they get married. And this is a movie called crazy love and it's their story and we did that just show up on

netflix or something recently maybe maybe because i i feel like i just saw something about this okay well yeah you did i did that then the guy making the cove was uh saw that saw what i you know saw my movies and he was a scuba diving friend, buddy. I used to scuba dive with this guy. Yeah. And he was like, I've been filming. Are you an adventurer? I was before I had kids, yes.

I can't say I am anymore, but I was. Yeah, I climbed Kilimanjaro. I, like, scuba dive all over the world. I love that shit. But now that's all. Now I make movies and try to see my kids as much as I can. Climb Kilimanjaro. You scuba dive. Did you sail? I never sailed, no. I my kids as much as I can. Crime Kilimanjaro, you scuba dive, you sail?

I never sailed, no. I love to have people sail for me and be on the boat. But I'm bad with anything like knots, technical, anything like that. Are you okay with a tank and hiking? The tank, I'm okay. And hiking, I'm okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Hiking, but not, if I have to be driving something. Vehicles, no good. No, many people still don't like to get into a car with me. Oh, yeah, that can. I've had issues. Yeah. I've had issues with cars. So the guy who produced Crazy Love or someone who saw it.

No, no, someone saw it. And anyway, my scuba buddy had been filming this for like three years and said, I don't know what to do with this. And Jim Clark was financing it. My buddy said, Fisher, you do it. You come on. And we, yeah, so that took a couple years of, that took a, that was a lot of footage to put together. So then did The Cove.

What year was that? That was, it came out in 2009, 2009, 2010. Wild. Yeah, and then I got deep into environmental stuff. 2009, um, 2009, 2010. Wild. Yeah. And then I got deep into environmental stuff because, because what I learned making the cove was like, what the fuck is going on with the, I didn't know anything about the environment pre that really.

I mean, I knew we were not doing well, but once you learn, we're really not doing well now. Oh my, I mean, where i yeah it's bad it's really bad but then i got really into making movies about yeah the problem well that's good that seems like a righteous uh angle on documentaries well you feel like if you could

do something cool they maybe can make a. Like the dolphin slaughters definitely cut down. Like I saw like the, the, the, that actually making a movie could change. Yeah. But, uh, my last few about the environment,

nothing's, it's gotten just worse and worse. And I know I was overwhelmed. You fuck. You couldn't save us. I couldn't. God damn it. It's bad,

Mark. But I was counting on you. I thought you, and it makes you not even want to fucking. Finish this interview? Yeah, I just want to go out and sit in the sun and fuck myself up more in California sunshine. I don't know. But at some point before you did this Beckham thing, how does the offer for succession happen?

So you're saving the world, but then you get. Well, I'll tell you how it happened. It was because of the United Nations. The United Nations, I did a lot of shooting for the United Nations. Yeah. And Nick Bernbach- What do you mean you did a lot of shooting? I filmed the peacekeepers in Haiti, and I made little films.

You were on contract for the UN? No, I just- You were an archivist? I was just doing little- They asked me to do things, to film things. The UN did? Yeah, to put things together. Okay.

You're helping. I'm helping, yeah. And to do things, to film things. The UN did. Yeah, to put things together. Okay. And. You're helping. I'm helping, yeah. And it was interesting, right? And you present your little short films at the, you know, in the General Assembly, and it was like, it was cool. Like which ones did you do? The Peacekeepers in Haiti, you said? Yeah, Peacekeepers in Haiti, and did a couple films for them on that.

And, yeah, for the Peacekeepers basically yeah so Nick who asked me to do these little films says hey man there's this guy you got to meet he's a director named Mark Mylod and he wants to do a film about us and so the three of us had dinner well Mark Mylod was off about to go do this new show called Succession yeah it's like's like, oh, okay, well, when you get back, it'll probably be canceled, and when you're done, we can work on this show. Yeah. And I never heard from Mark Milad until, like, two years later.

Yeah. And I didn't even remember he was doing Succession, but he asked me to do a little part. It was a good part. Yeah. It turned into a very good part. Yeah. But it was, that was because of the UN.

Well, I think that part for you was good because, like, you know, I think it's an interesting thing where the character you're playing has to be, you know, an actor who's trying to survive in a corporate environment. Like, that there's another layer to it. Yeah. That the moral compass is garbage. Yeah. And you're just trying to it. That the moral compass is garbage. Yeah. And you're just trying to figure out how to stay in the game. Which is all, this is all you're trying to do anyway on that show. Cause you're, you're acting with everybody's a fucking brilliant.

I'd never been on a, I'd never been surrounded on a constant basis by more brilliant actors. Yeah. And everybody was like, I mean, every single person was like, also, you know, you do a show for a few years, there's never a moment that anyone was walking through. Every scene, every day. It didn't seem like anyone would let anybody do that.

No. It was a magical moment. And yeah. And I was only supposed to do a few episodes. And it just worked out that whatever. Yeah. I slimed my way in. Yeah.

Well, I mean, that was the character. That was who Hugo was. But talk about learning. I mean, I was like learning. I still feel like I'm still learning so much. Of course. How could you not? And it's wonderful to just be able to be around people that can just school you.

Well, I find that if you can stay in it, you know, whatever it is, if you didn't pick a field where you sort of age out or get forgotten, that, you know, whatever you're going to bring to it every year of your life that you survive, you know, and whatever lessons you've learned in life, which are many if you get to a certain age and you're still engaged in it, are going to inform whatever you're doing for expression. And then when you see other people take risks at a certain age, I think that those risks that we talked about earlier, you kind of take them for granted after a certain point. But then you get into an environment where you're like, oh, shit. Yeah.

You've got to be fucking on, man. I know. I know. So it was a great experience working with people. Well, it was an amazing show. And I've talked to a lot. You know, I talked to. Jay.

Well, yeah, I talked to. And Jeremy. And Jeremy. Jeremy was great. Jeremy was so honest with you. He was just like. Yeah, he likes being honest. It's his secret weapon.

I know. Yeah, I like him. He's one of those guys where he does this great work, but no matter how big that show was and no matter how much press he got about how he handles it, there's still this part of me that's sort of like, I hope it works out for him. He's going to be fine.

Not that I feel like it won't, but I mean, he's very intense. Yeah. You know, and that character, there are certain characters one plays in their life where it's sort of like Ham playing Draper. Yeah. Where, where it's just like a glove. Yeah. Amazing.

And, and you, you know, how are you going to match that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was you. You invented that guy. He really did. Yeah. I mean, and Kieran, I mean, Kieran's

that guy. Yeah, Kieran's a genius. They're all, they're amazing. I mean, Matthew, I mean, everybody, Snook, I mean. Great. It was so fun to go to work, but you had to fucking be at work. You had to work. You had to be ready. So, look, I'll be honest with you.

I watched all four Beckhams the other night. And I don't give a shit or know anything about soccer. I knew Beckham was a thing, but I had no idea the scope. I had no point of reference for him other than I heard the name. Right. And that he was a soccer player. And he was British. Yeah. Then I heard the name and that he was a soccer player and he was British.

But I'm like, well, you know, out of respect for Fisher, I'm going to watch this thing. And I loved it. I mean, I learned about soccer. I learned about, you know, him. I learned about, you know, the press and how they ruin people. I learned about the challenges of having a father who programmed you from an early age, about a person who gave up everything to be this thing they wanted to be and then became the best at it.

I learned all that stuff. It's a great story. And it's interesting because one thing I reflect on after talking to Schwarzenegger and seeing that documentary, and I just watched Rob Reiner's Albert Brooks documentary. As a documentarian, the job, I imagine, for doing something like Crazy Love or The Cove is a different job than shooting a sanctioned biographical documentary of a figure, a known cultural figure. Very different. Yeah.

A whole different set of tools needed. And, yeah. The line is different. The line is very different. Because, you know, I saw when he pushed the line. And I also saw that, like, well, you know, he's not looking to sandbag anybody. But not only that, his subject's not going to let him. Yeah.

So it's tricky. Yeah, it was tricky. And I pushed, you know, there were other things that I had to cut out because David just wouldn't go there with me, you know, but there were other things that I was- He's British too, so. They are.

There's two levels of not going there with you. Very repressed. Yeah. I mean, the guy never looks back, and he never, you know. I mean, there were moments where he couldn't even, like, you could see his body, you know. Couldn't say anything bad about certain people. There was a respect, and there was a, you know, a kind of, like, suck it up thing. But he wasn't going to throw his dad under the bus.

He wasn't even going to throw that manager under the bus. What, Ferguson? Yeah. He wasn't going to throw. Well, he threw Huddle under the bus. He wasn't even going to throw that manager under the bus. What, Ferguson? Yeah. He wasn't going to throw. Well, he threw Huddle under the bus. Which one was Huddle? The manager of the English team. Oh, the World Cup team.

Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Well, I think that guy got set up. I think Beckham was a pawn in that game. Yeah. What was amazing is that he endured it. That's what I was fascinated by,

how this guy survived that journey and continued. And 21, 22? 22, and continued to, like, thrive. It wasn't easy, though. It was because

he was a great player. He was a great player, but mentally, it's still difficult to be a great player when you're going through all that shit, like, mentally. It was still difficult to be a great player when you're going through all that shit. Like mentally.

It was crazy, dude. Yeah. That the World Cup, if people don't know, and I didn't know as of three days ago, that guy Huddle, the coach of the World Cup, hung Britain's defeat against Argentina on this 22-year-old kid. 21, 22-year-old kid. Yeah. For something that didn't even look like it was legit. It would have never been given a red card today. Yeah, and then as Simeone says in the movie,

you know, I was acting. I fell, you know, and the ref saw the whole thing. He was right there. I mean, he saw Simeone kind of fall. Right, so they throw Beckham out of the game. Yeah. And England loses the World Cup, and this guy gets blamed for it by the entire world.

Yeah, yeah. And because I didn't know anything about him, this unfolded to me like a dramatic tension. Good, good. Because you want to hear the truth. I didn't know anything about him. Well, how did you choose to do the thing? I was asked to do it, and I didn't think I should do it.

And then I met him, and he said, the world doesn't know my story. They all think I had this great, everything was roses, and I want to tell my own story my way. And I think you're the guy to do it because you don't know very much about me. And he was right in a way. And because I'm, you know, I wasn't into soccer until he left real, he went to Madrid. I didn't know anything about it. I thought the same about him that you did, basically.

But the thing is, is that there were two turns in his life where things got horrible for him, you know, really horrible for him. And I guess he's arguably one of the great players, correct? Well, great English players. Yeah, he changed the way people play. horrible for him and and i guess he's arguably one of the great players correct well great english great english players yeah he changed the way people play i mean the way he passed those those uh from the corner yeah the corner and his his dead ball kicks from and is not i mean he he was a he was a game changer literally the way that way that he played. He was incredible.

You know, now there's been so many great players since. Sure. But he was, the thing that he's brought up that was so, to me, interesting was how he mentally didn't become a drug addict, alcoholic, and fall apart in a family. He wasn't in them. I know, but. His dad wasn't going to let him, and the dad that he had living inside of him wasn't going to that's right that's right and he still has that in him sure this dad living inside him and yeah i mean and his dad's still around right yeah i mean it's like yeah i guess the second turn was the tabloidization of the affairs or the uh uh assumed

affairs which he you know diplomatic not even diplom, which he, you know, diplomatic, not even diplomatically, which he didn't handle. He didn't come clean in the dock, but he did. And, you know, whatever they were able to survive in that was, you know, a testament to whatever that family was made out of and what she's made out of. And just for me, it's sort of like these people after a certain pay point where they're like, I bought a house. I'd set up the house. And these aren't little houses. And then we sold the house.

I'm like, holy shit. I had a hard time leaving the one house I owned before that was a thousand square foot house. I'm like, I'm just going to die here. I don't know how. I don't want the aggravation. But just the sort of way that people with massive amounts of money are sort of like, just get people to take care of things. But really oddly, the two things that I came away with, outside of learning about his life and sort of the arc of his several different manifestations of trajectories of his career, was there was something he shot that I thought was very smart when, you know, he was out and he was retired. And, you know, and he was that the thing that started creeping into his his current life, you know, not working was like this weird OCD, you know, anal kind of like organization of things and cleaning where, you know, he's

talking about how he likes just hanging out at the house, but he's sitting there sort of polishing an oven. He likes that. He can't. No, I know he likes it. Yeah. But, but there was something where you're sort of like, this guy needs to get back in it.

Yeah. Something. Yeah. Well, that's the beauty of messy coming to miami because when we started filming miami was this bottom basement team uh in the mls that david is one of the major owners up runs the team once messy uh which i couldn't believe he got messy like that was the we were finished filming we locked picture and i had to go take a camera and run down to Miami to get that. But now he's got this exciting new, because Messi wants him around in Florida. And he's, the season's ended now for them.

But he had this great thing where he, oh, I'm back. I got a contender. Right. But also he had shifted his, you know, perception and understanding of the game once he sold out. You know, and that was the other, that was the third turn of the screw where, you know, perception and understanding of the game once he sold out, you know, and, and that was the other, that was the third turn of the screw where, you know, he was just sort of like, what are you doing? You know, going to America and it's, it's nothing, you know, and it turns out it probably

was true, but ultimately that shifted his perception of, of what it means to be involved in the sport. And, and I think ultimately with getting that player, he was like, he's in the sport again. Yeah. Right? Yeah, totally. I mean, I know there's big money there. But you didn't even like,

you didn't even go to any of those games when he was here. You didn't even have that in your conscience. Nothing. Nothing, right? Nothing. Isn't that interesting, right? Yeah. But I found it all very compelling.

And I was also happy his kids seemed pretty good. Because there's that scene that footage that you found of the car driving past those fans and that three-year-old kid losing his mind. How terrifying

would that be? So then all of a sudden I'm like, why haven't we seen the kids yet? It's not a good sign. But then when they finally do,

it's like, oh my God, you've got a bunch of good kids. Yeah. And they, Cruz, the one in the boat,

he's brilliant. He wrote me the sweetest, he watched the whole thing. Yeah. Mate, I can't believe I learned things about my dad I didn't even know. And I loved it, you know. And he, yeah, he's great. And the weirdest thing, I went to a match in England. Yeah.

In Manchester with Brooklyn and David. Brooklyn is massively famous in England. Oh, yeah? Crazy. For what? Being David's kid. Oh, yeah? But he was like a rock star.

Huh. And, you know, and... He's a player, too? No, Romeo is the player. But Brooklyn is... I think he's a YouTuber or Instagrammer., but I mean, it was kind of crazy. Much, probably much, he's more famous in England, but. Well, it just seems that like, you know, I think that, you know, the British, you know, if you can, if you can suck it up and live through what the British will put you through, what the British press will put you through,

that eventually you come out the other side and there's a respect that will never go away. Yeah. Yeah. You know, for that name, for that guy. Yeah. You know, because, you know, the entire country turned on him and then they turned back.

I know. Because of what he did. But, you know, it's a rare story that, you know, you get that kind of forgiveness and then you're just sort of instilled as part of the national fabric. And I think that, you know, I think that name, whatever this kid is doing, Brooklyn, you know, it doesn't hurt to be Beckham. No, for sure. Yeah.

But I think the British press watching this and watching the way they treated Beckham was a good thing for them to see about how difficult. What they put that kid through. Yeah. Yeah, but just because they wanted that story. What they put all of them through, the whole family. It seemed like the original turn against him was a consolidated effort to divert blame off of that coach and off of, you know what I mean? Your entire team and success shouldn't hinge on one player.

I know many times it does. They also lost on penalties, ultimately. They lost on a penalty kick, but no one talked about any of that. Right. So who knows, right yeah yeah yeah but i i like that you think it was important for them to see that because again just like you save the world i'm sure that because of your doc the british tabloid press is gonna rethink their approach to things no actually one one of the london times journalists this woman i won't even

say her name but she didn't even know i'd ever made it film before. And she goes, and they hired that slimy motherfucker, Hugo Baker, to do the doc. I mean, she literally called me that. So, obviously, it didn't have any effect on me. Yeah, she's blaming your character from a TV show. Yeah. I got to let that go. You do? I got to let that go. Good do? I got to let that go.

Good talking to you, man. You too. I'm glad I finally made it. It was really, really nice. It was fun, yeah. It was nice to be here. There was never any apprehension. It's the timing.

Yeah, I know. And it's just been a running joke that now will have to end. Yeah, and Griffin can go fuck himself. Yeah. Hear that, Griffin? Just kidding. Me too. There you go.

Fisher Stevens. The docuseries Beckham. Now streaming on Netflix. Hang out for a minute, people. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice r need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream?

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Folks, we've got another Ask Mark Anything episode posted for full Marin listeners this week. I answered your questions about lots of stuff, including this one about other interview podcasts. How do you feel about guests who have been on your podcast and credit their experience on your show with inspiring them to start their own podcasts? Dak Shepard and Rob Lowe are two I've heard on several occasions credit you. Well, that's nice. It's nice to give credit to what inspired you or what made you think it was possible. I do believe I was probably that person for a lot of people, for better or for worse. The medium has blown up, and I imagine the fact that I could do it made a lot of people feel that they could do it. But,

uh, look, I, I always like getting, um, credit for inspiration and for helping out and for, uh, good things in general to sign up for the full Marin, go to the link in the episode description or head over to WTF pod.com and click WTF plus next week, actor and director Tycho Waititi on Monday. And for Thanksgiving on Thursday, a talk with Dr. Elliot Cain, my jazz optometrist.

Yeah, he's the real deal, man. The real deal. And maybe Brendan and I will talk about the killer. Yeah, we had a lot to say about it off the mics. Maybe we'll get on the mics.

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