WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1489 - Taika Waititi

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

Taika Waititi has his hands in dozens of projects at any given time, but he says the connective thread of all his work is that he’s still trying to impress his deceased father. Taika and Marc discuss the core of grief in all of Taika’s films and television shows, including the Thor movies, JoJo Rabbit, What We Do in the Shadows, Reservation Dogs and his most recent film Next Goal Wins.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it to it how's it going where are we at i know i know it's it's terrible and beautiful at the same time and that is the way life is i hope you're kind of uh able to focus on having a holiday this week i hope that happens for you i hope it's a good one and not a horrible one. I'll try to broadcast my yearly broadcast from down in Florida where I will be doing a solo cook-off for a smaller group this year. It's the first time I've been down there since my aunt passed away a few months ago, and it's going to be a little heavy, but that's what life is. Life is heavy. You know, it comes and goes, but as you get on with it, it comes more than goes. But then eventually it just fucking goes. I hope you're all right.

I'm a little loopy. I just got back from Denver. I did four shows, and, man, maybe I'm getting too old for this shit. I don't know. Maybe I put too much of myself into it. I did four shows. And man, maybe I'm getting too old for this shit. I don't know. Maybe I put too much of myself into it. I can't tell. All I know is I did four shows and I am wasted. I love going to Denver.

I've been going for years. And I always loved that downtown Comedy Works. And that's always where I've worked. And I think it's one of the best rooms in the country. But I got to be honest, that Comedy Works South, just as good. I don't know what it is with those places. The audiences are good, but there's something about the structures. And from what I understand, the woman who owns the place, Wendy, she designed both those rooms, and they are really some of the best rooms to do comedy in this country. And why do I need to say

that? I'm just telling you, I enjoyed it. I got real work done. Taika Waititi is on the show today. I talked to him. He's a filmmaker, actor, and comedian. He won an Oscar for Jojo Rabbit. He directed the last two Thor movies. He's the executive producer of the series What We Do in the Shadows, Reservation Dogs, and Our Flag Means Death.

His new film is called Next Goal Wins. And he's a fucking genius. I watched all his shit before I talked to him. I'd seen some of it and I watched some of it again. I watched some of it for the first time. And that guy is a tour of the highest order, has a point of view, has a vibe to his movies, has a unique approach to comedy, is a very funny actor, works tremendously well with kids. It's just brilliant. And him and Sterling Harjo, who we talk about, are just amazing. There is a way of capturing the native way of life, Taika from New Zealand and Sterling here in Oklahoma, where you can just kind of create the tone of the life that they live. And it's a different tone than the

rest of us live. And it's got its own kind of groove and its own humor and its own heart. And it's just amazing. And it runs through almost all of Taika's movies, including this new one, Next Goal Wins. But I just was thrilled to talk to him, but even more thrilled to sort of have a reason to go back and watch some of those movies because they're tremendous. I was fucking excited. But I'll ramble about that in a minute. I'll be doing a live talk with Cliff Nesteroff about his new book, Outrageous, at the New York Public Library on Wednesday, November 29th. It's a free event, and you can go in person or watch the live stream. Go to nypl.org slash events.

My Los Angeles dates in December. I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on December 1st, 13th, 28th. The Elysian on December 6th, 15th, 22nd. And Largo on December 12th and January 9th. Then in 2024, I'm in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th. A second show, I'm in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th. A second show has just been added for that night. Those tickets will go on sale tomorrow, November 21st at 10 a.m. I'm in San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. On February 4th,

Sunday, I'll be hosting a screening of McCabe and Mrs. Miller at the Roxy Theater right there around the corner from the Castro. You might check their website. I don't know exactly how they're going to be selling tickets. I'll be in Portland, Maine at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts, outside Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. And Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th.

I'll be adding more dates for the fall. I will be coming to a city near you. This isn't the whole of the tour. If I survive, I will be adding more dates, so don't panic. Man, Denver got some records, wax tracks, got some records, a few. Didn't need them, got them. Sandy Bull record, Glenn Campbell and Bobby Gentry record, Asylum 66 record, a weird Herbie Hancock record.

I feel like I got one other record. I don't remember what it was, but I got them. But here was the thing that was kind of funny. The last show, it was Saturday night, my opener, Georgia Comstock, who was very funny, killed. And I got up there and I was kind of trying to contract my, you know, reel in my brain. I knew right away it was going to be hands-on and it was, I had to stay on top of it, but I was going to do what I was going to do. It went very well, but there was a guy right up front and his wife. And apparently

there was, they was not laughing, just looking at me, just sitting right up front, a big guy, couldn't get him to bust an expression at all. And that's a fucking nightmare. The rest of the fucking crowd is, is going with me. It's great, but he's just sitting there and he's got this look on his face that was impenetrable. He wasn't mad at some point. I made fun of him. And, and then I made fun of him again. And there was a younger woman sitting next to him, also not laughing, who he said was his daughter. So I figured it ran in the family. But then he said he was too much like me to laugh. I'm not sure I bought it, but I just had to adjust to that. And I got to be honest with you, it made me angry and it gave me

an edge for the whole show. It wasn't bad. I was able to go in and out of the vulnerable places, but yet with a little bite to it. But something that's never happened to me before was that I do the whole show and at the very last bit, the guy didn't laugh once. And at the very last bit, he lets out the most awkward, ridiculous laugh that I believe was genuine, but it was, it rose above all the other laughs and kind of, you know, took shape in the ether as a ridiculous noise. And at that moment I said, thank God I didn't make you laugh the whole show because there was no way we were going to get past that laugh as a crowd. Maybe he was self-conscious about it and he chose to hold it in. I doubt it.

But boy, it was just one of those laughs where it was like, wow. And there was one there on Friday night, too, but no one made light of it. And look, it's a natural thing, but sometimes they're so unique that you got to be careful because the audience knows like that's a weird laugh and it's very noticeable. And then if you draw attention to it, then they do it more because they do it unconsciously. And then it becomes the fabric of your show. But the fact that this guy didn't laugh the whole show to the last bit and then laughed and it was ridiculous and annoying and show-stopping i've never been so grateful and i've never uh misread a dude uh worse i i don't know what his story was but uh i was so i kept telling him like i'm gonna get you and thank god

thank god i did not that's what i'm gonna. So look, Taika Waititi is here. And I watched all his movies in order, even the ones I've seen. And it's just a genius filmography because he has a unique vision and he's hilarious. I watched Eagle versus Shark, Boy, Boy is another one, What We Do in the Shadows, Hunt for the Wilderpeople, which is beautiful, Thor, Ragnarok, Jojo Rabbit. I watched Thor, Love and Thunder. I watched his new one, The Next Goal Wins. And I was just stunned and amazed and moved at the kind of vibe of his movies, the vision of his movies. It's just, you know, no one really,

there's something about, and it makes total sense that he produced Reservation Dogs with Sterling Harjo because Sterling works with American natives and Taika comes from New Zealand natives and the groove of native life and native spirit and native heart is it just threads through all of most all his movies. And it's very similar to Sterling's.

And it's just totally unique to me. And totally that when he when Taika does comedy, it's hilarious. So let me share this conversation I have with him. And I did want to mention upfront that we are talking, um, about Sterling Harjo right, right, right at the beginning here, who created reservation dogs with Taika. I think we just got into it. I think we actually got, got riffing, got talking off the mics and just got into it, but that's But that's who we're referring to. This is me talking to Taika Waititi.

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Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. And you shot this new movie four years ago? I shot it in 2000. This time four years ago. Yeah. Then the pandemic happened. It was a year of just doing nothing.

I didn't look at the film. Then I did finish the film, and there was a strike, so no one wanted to do anything for, again, another year. Yeah. So now it's out. And when did you do the pirate thing? 2021. Did the first season. So that was after.

Then the second season was last year. Yeah. So that was after. After I shot this film. Yeah. What did I do? I did Thor. Yeah.

Another Thor film. Oh, you did the second Thor after the new one? The second Thor after I shot this one while I was in post on this one. Then I did these TV shows. Yeah. I shot the pirate one. And then I shot Time Bandits with Jermaine. Yeah.

And another TV show, Interior Chinatown. What is that one? That's one based on a book by Charlie Yu. And it's a great kind of, it's about a kid who lives in Chinatown who realizes that he's

a background character in a police procedural, like CSI. And all the light when the cops come in. Is it a doc style? No, it's sort of like, I mean, basically it's like a Wong Kar Wai film. It's a bit like Fallen Angels or Chungking Express.

And it's got, yeah, so we're using all those old styles. But he lives in this town, and the style of the shooting while he's, you know, we were with him, it's, you know, when we're with him. It's all like handheld, very raw lighting and then when the cops turn up, white cops turn up to investigate things, the lighting turns into studio lighting and the camera goes on dollies and it's all beautiful

and he's like, why is everyone backlit? Why are these cops on backlight? Everyone looks beautiful. And you came up with that device? No, Charlie Yu, who wrote the book, we came up with that idea together to change the lighting and to change the style whenever the cops turn up. And then he starts being pulled into that world. And then suddenly he's like, oh, my God, I'm lit so beautifully. Everything around me.

He starts being pulled into the white world of stardom. But what was, you know, because I'm friends with Sterling these days. He came out to my birthday party. That was very nice. And, you know, I was in the last season of that thing. And what was the involvement, what was your involvement in that and how did you kind of bring that? Because I think that, for me, is one of the best TV shows in the last 20, 30 years. Yeah, yeah.

And how did that all come together? So Sterling and I were in my kitchen in the house I was renting up in Laurel Canyon. Oh, here. How'd you meet him, though? I met him in 2004. As a director? We were both directors.

We had short films at Sundance. So going back to your short film. Yeah. So I had a short film there. He. We had short films at Sundance. So is it going back to your short film? Yeah. So I had a short film there. He had his first short film at Sundance. We met up through a guy called Bird Running Water, who used to work at Sundance, used to run the native program,

pulling indigenous filmmakers together. Sterling and I met and hit it off. We realized we had the exact same childhood and upbringing, but he was in Oklahoma and I was in New Zealand. Interesting. And we just became best mates. And for years we would just be friends for so long. Yeah.

And then about three or four years ago, we were in this house I was renting in Laurel Canyon, and we were just lamenting how our representation on screen is always. As natives, as always. You know, when you talk, as always, you know, when you look, you talk to anyone about, you know,

like what's the first thing that comes to mind when you ask someone, you know, when you say the words native American, it's always a guy on a horse, you know, shirtless, feathers, and all of the paint and making noises.

Yeah. And it's, which is crazy because, you know, natives around the world have been dressing contemporary, like contemporary clothes for longer than they were dressing like that on horses and so of course and so we were like we're never funny in things we're never like there's never anything it's always we're scouts

and we're always like you know sitting on mountaintops talking to spirits and like yeah but by the point you had this conversation you had done you hunt for the wilder people and and you sort of defined a new version of new zealand native anyway yeah yeah but we were talking mainly about american yeah and so in the kitchen that night it was like you know like we're just sitting around having a cup of beers and we realized you know that we both wanted the same thing. Right. And we came up with this idea about something set on the res. We named it Reservation Dogs that night. And we said, what about something called Res Dogs?

It's about these kids. Yeah. And this is the things they do. And we basically pitched the idea to each other. Yeah. And I had a deal with FX. Yeah. And I said, I'm going to call them up tomorrow. Yeah.

I called them the next day and I said, we want to do the show. And FX are great. And they said, love it. We'll do it. We need this. Yeah. And it was like that easy.

And were you part of the original casting and everything? Yeah, the casting and the writing and the first thing. But then, and what they wanted originally was like, Taika, you have to direct it and this stuff. And I couldn't do it. Where was I? Oh, that's right. I was back in New Zealand in quarantine trying to take my kids back to New Zealand.

Yeah. And I was supposed to direct it from a hotel room. And it was just ludicrous. Over Zoom? Over Zoom. Huh. They'd carry like an iPad around. That's crazy. So it was just ludicrous. Over Zoom? Over Zoom. They'd carry an iPad around. That's crazy. So I could talk to the actors.

Not only was it that ridiculous, but also it's not my culture, it's not my people, it's not my story, really. Help create the show. But that's just Sterling's world, and it's set in his hometown. And so it always should have been him directing that.

So he directed it, and I just became a producer and sat back. But it's interesting that show, because I'd never seen anything like that, because there's, like you said, there's the idea of what natives are. But there's also the, you know, the universe of growing up like that. And that culture has an entirely different pace, timing, spirituality. Yeah. And so everything is all new, even the, you know, just the, the timing of the humor. Yeah. And it's the same, it's the same with your early movies, but like the one thing I noticed, cause I, I, I kind of watched them all.

You know, I've seen ones in the past, but I watched them all in a line, is that you, and it's same with Sterling, and I imagine was part of why you guys are friends, is that you guys can run the weight of the world through kids. Yeah. And it's a way to make it universal and understandable, and the limitations are just the emotional range of children.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the topics are all there. But also, I think looking at things through a child's lens really highlights how ridiculous the grown-up world is, and the shit that we do to each other, and the things that we come up with, and even with Jojo Rabbit, you know, like, when you look at the Nazis, right? Right. You look at, like, the shit that they put on their uniforms. Yeah.

You know, they were a bunch of kids. Yeah. Immature kids who were like, this is what's cool, lightning bolts and eagles and I want a skull and crossbones on my hat. Yeah. And, like, you know, they were, like, literally, they thought, this will be scary. So cool. And this is so cool. And, like, they grown-ups decorating their uniforms

with a skull and crossbones but i think like even like you know boy which i think is kind of a masterpiece and i don't know how how well how out there that that's gotten in terms of people seeing it but i mean that the father character that you play in that because that mixture of a of a kid's sense of fantasy and and and and belief that his father is this amazing person. Yeah. And then when the guy finally shows up and he's a buffoon. He's a fucking loser. But he's a clown.

Yeah. He's a loser, but he's endearing. Yeah. I mean, I could have made it, you know. No, exactly. I could have just made him just like your cliche, like, asshole dad. Right. But he is trying.

He's trying to be a cool dad. He wants to be loved. Right. And that's like, and I think most of those characters and most villains, I think, want to be loved. They want to be liked. They want people to notice them. Well, there's a difference between. That's behind most villains.

Right. There's a difference between, like, you know, characterizing somebody as a heel and as somebody who's truly evil, right? So the doofus villain, you know, always has that immaturity, right? That you kind of, you empathize for him and you realize that he's limited. Yeah. And it comes, I think everything, I think every villain, it all comes back to their parents. Yeah. Sure.

It comes to dad, like, my dad. All the problems. I'm trying to impress my dad. Trump is still trying to impress parents. Yeah. Sure. My dad. All the problems. I'm trying to impress my dad. Trump is still trying to impress his dead dad. I know. But that's like all the problems, whether it's trying to impress your dad or just that they wired you in a fucked up way. Yeah.

And your entire life is just trying to get your needs met that will never be met. Never. I'm still trying to impress my dead dad. I'm still, everything I do, I'll show you. Really? Yeah. Look at me now. Yeah, yeah.

Go fuck yourself. I won. I'm better than you. Well, my dad has lived long enough to realize that I'm better than him. But now he's losing his mind, so it doesn't stick. Oh, shit. You're like, you remember this? Yeah, yeah. yeah i won and now you don't even know it anymore it's kind of funny to see him kind of drift away i just saw him well and boy i played my dad

basically my dad did bury a bag of money in the field and never found it again it's such a a great comic device because initially in the movie, you don't think that he's bullshitting. Yeah. And then there's just this journey of this kid trying to help him dig this thing up. Yeah, yeah. But we used to go back to help.

Yeah, he buried a bag. He never found it. It's still somewhere in this field back in our community. One of these paddocks has got a bag of money buried in it. A lot of money? Yeah, a lot of money. That he got in a nefarious way? Yeah.

And it's sitting there. And that's all the discontinued banknotes, so it's probably worthless. But that's like 100 grand sitting in a field somewhere. Really? Well, they've got to make that right, even if it's discontinued Well, they got to make that right. And. Even if it's discontinued. They got to make that right. If you find that bad. You owe it.

They owe it to you. Yeah. Maybe they'll take a little bit off the top, but they got to give you the money. So wait, so like, did you, was there, I don't know New Zealand obviously, but is there a reservation type of culture? No, we weren't put on reservations,

but we have small, like, you know, our tribal lands that we've always stayed on. So we were never moved around because there's just not enough room. But a lot of that land for every tribe was taken. So in World War II, we went and fought for the crown. Yeah. And every non-Maori soldier who returned from the war

was given a parcel of land to build a house and that was their reward for fighting except for the people who were from New Zealand. So none of us got any and we came back and it was just... What was the logic on that? Racism? Oh, yeah. We're just like you guys

So the Maori that went to war But weren't indigenous to the country No no There were no Maori who went to war Who weren't from New Zealand So every Maori who went And there were a lot of them Came back to nothing

And came back to the government Taking more of their land And giving it to white soldiers I see And so there's a lot of resentment And from that and came back to the government taking more of their land and giving it to white soldiers. I see. And so there's a lot of resentment. And from that, we're getting into it now, from that stemmed a huge amount of resentment that then trickled down to their children,

which is my dad's generation. Yeah. And so my dad's generation grew up very resentful of their parents who fought in the war but who came back and then there's a lot of alcoholism and they were like, how come we're just losers and we don't have any land,

we don't have any money, we're not allowed to speak our language at school. And so my dad's generation rebelled against society and their parents and started,

that's where all the gangs in New Zealand started around that time. What kind of gangs? How did that manifest itself? My dad was one of the founding members of a gang called Satan Slaves, which was a bike gang.

So that's really in the movie. Which is still going today. In the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the movie you portray them as not really an organized bunch. Yeah, yeah, well, they were. But in the movie I wanted to sort of poke fun at people. Anyone could start a gang.

Sure, yeah. You just need more friends. So it was modeled on the Hells Angels? The Slaves were modeled on the Hells Angels and headhunters and all those gangs. A lot of them. And then another gang started called the Munger Mob, which is like a very big gang in New Zealand and a lot of my family's in there. And they were not bikers. They were not bikers.

Yeah. But, yeah, that's – so I think late 60s and all through the 70s and 80s and up until today, that was like a very big part of New Zealand society with these Maori and just non-white people who needed something. Right. Who started gangs and creating their own world. Were they shooting and robbing? Yeah, a lot of rumbles, a lot of crime. So there was a competitive territorial element to it. Yeah, they were always fighting each other and fighting the cops.

Did they have a business? Was it a shakedown business? Or was it like, you know? A little bit. That came later, that stuff. You know, when they realized that they could actually make money. Right. By terrorizing people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this is what you grew up in. Did he do jail time? My dad was, yeah, he was in jail when my mother met him. Really? That was their romance? Yeah, yeah.

How did that work? She had a friend. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. How does that work? She had a friend. She had a friend who was giving books out to, had a program going around prisons. Oh, for prisoners?

Yeah, just like introducing them to different books. She tagged along with this friend of hers and met this guy who looked like Omar Sharif. That was your dad? In the prison, that was my old man. And they hit it off, and then she sort of was like, oh, wait for you, I guess. And then he got out.

They got together. She sort of entered into that world of the gang. There's a middle-class Jewish schoolteacher. From where? From New Zealand. Her family were originally from Russia, but she grew up. She was born and raised in Wellington From New Zealand. Her family were originally from Russia, but she grew up, and she was born and raised in Wellington in New Zealand. Then they got together, and then she got pregnant.

He went back to jail. He was in jail the day I was born, and he was in and out most of his life. But that was sort of like a very normal thing. When I think about it, it sounds actually insane, but it was a very normal thing. I think a lot of people growing sounds actually like insane but like it was a very normal thing and I think a lot of people growing up in poverty

that is a normal thing you've always got a family member it goes away there's that uncle but that uncle was my dad now in Boy so that was your story in a way

that was very much my story we shot in my hometown we shot in the house I grew up in we shot at the school I went to we shot there was

a lot of my family are in the film. Yeah. All the kids are my nephews and nieces. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was, every location in Boy is something I've lived. Because, like, in that movie, I think it kind of sets the stage for, you know,

your sense of comedic balance and your sense of emotional balance to where even though there are moments in that film where the father is clearly pathologically selfish and abusive to his mother, you, the character playing you. But somehow or another, you're able to write a line to where the empathy doesn't drift really from that guy. So I imagine that whole movie was sort of a learning curve in terms of how you're going to have your point of view. Yeah, and I think we'd

add films like Once More Warriors, which is a really great New Zealand film, but it's brutal to watch, and it's just one of breaking the waves. It's just relentless. And you're just like, oh man, once every ten years maybe I'll watch this but like

a great film but like I think you know we especially as Maori we've got to change the way we tell our stories

and I just felt like man for all the fucked up shit that went on in my childhood you know

like fighting and just people being fucking stabbed and chopped up and all sorts of in my childhood, you know, like fighting and just people being fucking stabbed and chopped up and all sorts of crazy shit. There's, you know, there were really fun times. Like there's, you know, weirdly people just laughed their way through everything and like made a lot of jokes around stuff and like, you know. Or just the process of digging holes.

Digging holes and like just make it, you know, like just really, yeah, and there's something, and some of the jokes are even in bad taste but at least there was humor through that time and that's what I feel like

in my films. It's like if you can pull an audience in with humor, you know, just sort of lube them up and then deliver the message you want. That's like,

I think the ultimate way of telling a story. Of course. Yeah, it's not essentially a comedy, you know, that's, I think, the ultimate way of telling a story. Of course. Yeah, it's not essentially a comedy. You know, it's a different,

people don't know what to call it, but it's really just, it's still a drama, really. It's still a drama. My films, they always say,

oh, it's comedic, direct. Yeah, but my films are dramas with jokes. Yeah, yeah. And with, you know, characters that are

deep enough to be comedic characters without losing their humanity. Yeah, yeah. And with, you know, characters that are deep enough to be comedic characters without losing their humanity. Yeah. There are great comedies which are comedy comedies, you know, which is just wall-to-wall jokes

and like, but you don't care about anyone. You don't care about the characters. Even when they have that moment where they're like, oh, and there's like supposed to be some sort of... Yeah, because they're not real.

They're not founded in anything. No, no. You know they're going to go back to of. Yeah, because they're not real. They're not founded in anything. No, no. You know they're going to go back to being ridiculous, and you know they're going to undercut that emotional scene with a joke at the end of it. Right, and dismantle the scene. Yeah. And diminish it. Yeah.

Yeah, because I realized the other day that I would say two or three of Scorsese's heaviest movies are fucking comedies. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? I mean, Goodfellas is a comedy. For sure. Right? And Wolf of Wall Street is totally a comedy goodfellas is a comedy wolf for sure right and and wolf of wall street is absolutely totally a comedy king of comedy yeah it's a comedy it's a comedy but

it's gnarly yeah right and also in in boy you kind of set the standard and not unlike reservation dogs of the impact of american pop culture i mean the whole thing in boy is driven by michael jackson really yeah and and that was what, even as a native person in that country, that was like this thing. Yeah. Unavoidable. We used to think, we thought Bob Marley was from a tribe down the road when I was growing up.

I didn't realize he wasn't from New Zealand. Another gang? Yeah. Because, like, everyone looked like him. Everyone had dreads and listened to reggae. Like, New Zealand has the highest listenership of reggae per capita outside of Jamaica. And it's like the furthest away on earth that you can get. And it's like an identity thing with identifying with people who are just minorities.

Different types of natives. Was your dad, did he ever do a job or an art or anything? He was an artist. He was. He was a painter and a sculptor and a carver, and he was a brilliant, brilliant artist. It's like the movie. Exactly. Exactly like the movie. He wouldn't know what an outsider artist was, but that's what he was.

But he was in and out of your life, really? In and out of my life, yeah. And your mom was always in it? My mother was always in my life. And she's- I lived with her mostly. And then I would live up on the coast with my grandmother or my dad. Yeah, your dad's mother?

Yeah. And was there Jewishness in the house? No, not really. Yeah, yeah. No, no. My mother's parents, they joined the Communist Party when they were young, when she was born and stuff. And they were just sort of like, that was the time. Progressive Jews. Yeah, yeah. Secular. of like, that was the time. Progressive Jews. Yeah, yeah.

Secular. They were like, you know, religious on the side. Yeah, yeah. You identify, but you don't need to put the work in. Lazy Jews. Well, you know, you do it a little bit. Yeah. Oh, when it counts.

Because enough to keep your Jewishness, because no matter- Your Jewish card. Yeah, exactly. And no matter how much you engage, you're still a Jew at the end. Oh, for sure your Jewishness because no matter. Your Jewish card. Yeah, exactly. And no matter how much you engage, you're still a Jew at the end. Oh, for sure. If they come after you. And no matter how much you disengage, you're still Jewish. Sure.

So, but you started in stand-up basically? Yeah, I started in, well, my background is painting. So I was painting pictures and that's all I wanted to do. Did you go to school for that? Yeah, I did a few not a painting school, not an art school but painted with a bunch of people So it was what you wanted to do?

It was what I wanted to do. My dad was a painter so I was like, oh, I'm going to be like him. And so I did a lot of that probably until my 30s. But I started getting into theatre very early on. My mother and my father, you know,

which is one thing I really love about them, they never pressured me to do anything but art. They wanted me to do art. They wanted me to be. That's the best. She wanted me to be acting and to be writing and to be creative. My dad wanted to the same,

and I think I would have been disappointed if I'd chosen another path. And so I was just only encouraged to do that. My mother was a schoolteacher, and she would, for punishment, she'd give me two options. You'd be grounded, or you can write an essay on this William Blake poem.

And I was like, I'd rather be grounded. She says, nah, just read the poem and tell me about it. Well, it's funny, given those two people, if they were disciplinarian or forced you into something else, it wouldn't stick because you could just be like, look at you. Yeah, totally, totally. Well, that's great, though, that they made you do that. It's fantastic.

And I'm really thankful for that because growing up, there was just no other option. There was no other – I didn't have a backup plan. Right. So then I got into theater and did a lot of plays and stuff through my youth and through my 20s. And that's when I went to university. I met Jermaine and Brett, and we started writing plays together, and we put them on because no one else would hire us. I've got to be honest with you.

put them on because no one else would hire us. I've got to be honest with you. I never really locked in to Flight of the Conchords, you know? But watching Jermaine in Eagle vs. Shark and in What We Do in the Shadows, I'm like, holy shit, this guy's hilarious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is the funniest guy I know. He's the best writer I know.

He's just one of the greatest. And who's Brett? Is he the other? He's the other guy from Flight of the Conchords. Yeah, yeah. Another brilliant guy. But you guys were like a team or improv or sketches? I'm not suggesting that we're the same as Monty Python,

but they all met at university. It was that kind of vibe. We all worked together doing different little things, short films and little things together. And Wellington at the time was just a hive of creativity and there were a lot of cool people and cool writers and cool artists coming out of there. But did you do like Edinburgh or anything with those guys?

Yeah, yeah, Edinburgh. With the two of you? Yeah, in August, yeah, we went and did that. Me and Jermaine went and did that. Jermaine and Brett did that a couple of years. And they won the Perrier one year. And at that time I was just getting interested in film. Never solo stand-up or anything like that?

I did solo stand-up. You did? A lot, yeah, yeah, yeah. In New Zealand? Not in New Zealand. And then various places, just because it was kind of an off-the-cuff thing. But I did that,

but then a lot of it was also like, you know, the sort of, when it was trendy to be doing anti-comedy, you know, which is like, I can't. I can't yeah I can't I can't and now

when I think back about it I'm like fuck this pisses me off well to me I've met those guys and they're always kind of the same

you're like so why don't you just suck it up and do the work just do the work totally yeah yeah yeah stop failing

on purpose because you're too scared of actually doing the work what was your act like it was like more like it was like a lot of stand up on purpose because you're too scared of actually doing the work. What was your act like? It was like more like,

it was like a lot of stand up but with sort of more of a theatrical version of that, you know, we're telling a joke and then the microphone would be turned down. Yeah, yeah.

Just go silent and then my thought, recorded thought would come over. What am I doing? I hate this. I'm not good at this. Oh, that's funny.

Yeah, yeah. And they're like talking, you know, they're watching me. I'm just good at this. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. And they're like, they're watching me. I'm just going to be a dancer. This is way easier than this. I can't even write a joke. I'm like, you're a fraud.

You're a fucking fraud. And then they might come by and be like, and that is what she said about that. Yeah. That's funny. It's almost a cinematic device already. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you did the short film that you met Sterling during Sundance, that was what kind of put you on the map as a filmmaker?

Yeah, that was Two Cars One Night, and that was the first short I did, and then it got nominated for an Oscar, which was lost, but it was the thing that made me feel like maybe I should continue doing this. Yeah. And your parents were thrilled? Yeah, they were thrilled. My dad was like, well, you're putting our name out there. That's good.

And my mother, of course. Did he ever go like, well, you got any money? No, no, no. He had the money. Oh, he did. Good. Oh, yeah. He had the money.

He had so much money he could afford to bury it in places and never find it again. And then Eagle vs. Shark was the first feature? That was the first feature, yep. How do you feel about that, looking back on it? I haven't seen it in so long. Yeah. So I made this short, Two Cars One Night,

which was sort of like Boy, and I made that, and then I wrote a script for Boy. Right. But I was very scared about making that as my first film because I didn't want to fuck that up. And so I put that to the side, and I wrote the script, Evil vs. Shark, super fast, with my girlfriend at the time, Lauren,

and she and I basically just worked on the story and then made this film very, very fast. And it was like I wanted to just get that out of the way, just make a film so I've done it. And then I could understand my limitations, what the problems could be. And what were they? Well, I just realized that you need more time than you think.

And just understanding. Because I directed like three things. Yeah. Tiny little things. Right. And I needed to understand like what it was like to be shooting for this long and to edit an entire thing as well. And like what, yeah. So it was more like a test.

It was interesting because like what it reminded me of in terms of tone. Because like very quickly after that with Boy, you definitely found an emotional place that was authentic and and with the characters in in eagle versus shark it was almost like a a type of independent film at the time like napoleon dynamite or something yeah yeah yeah where you have these you know kind of peculiar eccentric characters that have an emotional life but it's it's limited but because they're peculiar, you know, they kind of carry the movie, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you kind of, you know, because they're, you know, for lack of a better word, nerds.

Yeah, sure. You know, who don't run the world, but you're in their world. You're willing to, like, give them a chance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though their decisions and the way that they interact and stuff start to piss you off. Right. You know, you're like, God, can you just be fucking normal?

Can you just talk to each other like normal grown-ups? It was funny, though, the twist in that, though, the family stuff. But again, like right there, and it goes all the way through all the work, at the core of it is grief. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like every movie, dude. Everything that I've made, the core is grief or dad issues.

Right. And it's like, you know, or there's something that it's about, boy is a comedy about child abuse or child neglect. Hunt for the Wilder People is my film about the foster system in New Zealand, the foster care system, and about children being neglected again. But right at the beginning, it's grief. The two characters in that movie, not just because of the treatment and the foster care system of that kid,

but also the one person that he liked dies almost immediately. Yeah, exactly. And it's Sam Neill's wife. Yeah. So they're just wandering through the wilderness. Not knowing how to talk to each other because the glue, the one person that grounded them is gone. And they're both grieving.

Yeah. And where does that come from? I mean, I understand the dad stuff, but the grief stuff. I mean, you know, I don't, I think, I just find people fascinating and I find that, you know,

we come from a, so in multicultural, when people die, we go through a long grieving process. It's a big deal. And there's a tradition

to it? Yeah, there's a tradition to it. What is it? Well, it's an open casket and people come from miles around

to the tribal grounds and you sit with the body for a whole week and you just sit there and you cry and you laugh and you tell stories about them. You eat

and people fight and people get drunk and you go through all of these stages of grief while you're sitting there and it fascinates me that very few Western cultures do that. In Ireland, I think they do that. like you know very few western cultures do that

you know in Ireland I think they do that you know people sit in their houses Jews do the shiver thing yeah but like this thing is like a

it can often be mayhem you know it's just like where the shit goes down people fighting over the coffee people coming in wanting to take the body to another tribal land

to bury it there because he had ancestors from that place you know a lot of fucking crazy craziness all of it comes out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, my dad built his own tomb. And that was a big deal. Yeah. Did he? That was a massive deal. Did he put him in it? Yeah, I put him in it. Yeah.

And, you know, you don't do that. You know, you're supposed to be buried with everyone else. And I was like, he didn't want to be buried with you guys. What did the tomb look like? It was like a concrete bunker. Yeah. And it had like a Dracula sort of, you know, sarcophagus thing in it.

He was building it. I said, what are you doing? He said, I'm building my sarcophagus. I'm like, are you dying? He said, no, I'm just getting ready. He goes, I want to put some beds in here for you and your brothers. I was like, fuck, there's no way I'm being put in here with you. And when did he die?

He died in 2015. But it's just like, I mean, this is what I'm talking about. These larger-than-life stories that are really amazing, which are great cinematic moments. It's where I find my fascination with family. Yeah. And like, you know, because in families, there's heroes, villains. There's like twists and turns.

Yeah. There's plot twists. There's all sorts of, you know, there's ridiculous moments. He built his own you know what do you call that a square that you put a coffin in what's that called

is that a sarcophagus maybe I'm thinking about Dracula you know the big with a concrete top yeah yeah you move it across

to get to the body yeah yeah yeah I mean I I think it is maybe a sarcophagus anyway he built that for himself when how old were you

this was like about two years before he died. Oh, okay. So he was older. This was his project. Yeah, yeah. This was his little project. Yeah.

What did he die of? Heart attack. Yeah. And anyway. You put him in there. Anyway. You put him in there. The coffin didn't fit.

No. He made it wrong? He made it too short. So what'd you do? Get a new coffin? Just saw the ends off the coffin. And he's in there. He's in there.

How many siblings do you have? He's in there with his motorbikes. You put the bikes in on top? Yeah, but the door was too small. For the bikes? Yeah. So you took them apart? I dismantled a fucking Harley and a Triumph, reassembled them inside his tomb,

and then sealed it. But, I mean, I think the testament to whatever the dynamic was is that you needed to finish. You needed to make it work. This guy left me with a DIY project that I wouldn't wish upon anyone. I'm like,

why don't you leave me some money? Why don't you leave me the bikes? You've got to go find it. I'm like, oh great, these are my bikes. And they're like, oh, great. These are my bikes. And my uncle's like, no, no, no. They're going in.

They're going inside too. You could have just said, fuck it. You could have just said, fuck it. Kept those bikes. Just despite them. You didn't. I don't want that guy haunting me. Yeah.

How many siblings do you have? Two younger brothers. So were they all helping out with the? No. No, no, they didn't help out. No. No. It was me and my uncle.

Me and my two uncles pouring concrete and making a concrete slab to go over the top of his rectangle thing. Yeah. And then putting these fucking bikes back together in the tomb. Did you have the people come? Did everyone come? Well, it was like, it's not a thing to build your own tomb, it turns out. So, like, everyone was a big, you know, it was a big issue. You know,

the whole community came and yeah, we put them in there, we sawed the ends off the fucking coffin, put the things in, covered it up and shit and then everyone came down

with some rose petals to have a look inside and every single person was like, hey shit, that's a pretty fucking good idea. I like this. I like a tomb.

I'll make my own tomb. Who knows, who's building tombs now? Maybe he just started the trend of tomb building changed the whole culture yeah he changed it

he just went against tradition we were supposed to all be buried together on a hill yeah and he was like I'm not being buried with those four motherfuckers

we wanted to be special yeah yeah well I remember him telling me about it and he said I said I'm not going to be buried in here

with you psychos and he goes well are you sure because there's going to be buried in here with you psychos. And he goes, well, are you sure? Because there's going to be a secret tunnel that only three people know about. He really thought he was like an Egyptian king. And he was like, yeah, I'm going to be buried in there with all my treasures. A secret tunnel? That's already giving me anxiety.

My ghost wouldn't even be able to get out of there. I'd be stuck in there with you. So no secret tunnel. He didn already giving me anxiety, like that my ghost wouldn't even be able to get out of there. I'd be stuck in there with you. So no secret tunnel. He didn't finish that part? He didn't finish the tunnel. Well, thank God. Well, at least maybe that's where you got your imagination. I think so, because he was a larger-than-life character, and all those big, big stories from those times back in the 70s and 80s, and I grew up around that, and those gangs and stuff, and just crazy characters, and I grew up around that, and those gangs and stuff, and like those crazy characters,

and I think that's where I got that, just that fascination with like, with people, and what people are capable of, and not only like amazing achievements, but the damage people can do to each other, and what they can do to themselves. And you don't feel like you have resolution

around your relationship with that guy? You know, I think sometimes, I think when he died, I thought, is there anything I wish I'd said to him for some closure? Yeah. And I thought about it,

and I thought, actually, no. There's nothing I think I needed to say. Yeah. And, you know, well, the cool thing is, I think we got our resolution when I was a finished boy

And the crew had left town And I was hanging out there And I went up to see him And he lives on a He lived on a Our house is up on this hill And it's like a hawk breeding ground Yeah

And so hawks get hit on the road all the time They come down You know Get a dead animal off the road And they get hit by cars Yeah And so my dad Started taking care of these injured hawks. Yeah.

And so my cousin dropped off this wounded hawk to him, and he was building a cage for this thing. Yeah. I went up there as I finished boy, and everyone left, and just went up to say goodbye. I saw that he was building this cage so I just helped him out and it was one of those great again another cinematic moment

we never said a word to each other just built this big cage put the chicken wire all around it put some twigs in there for the animal to sit on threw in some dead rabbits

and then we nailed him the last nails put the hawk in there and we closed the cage and sort of just stood back and just looked at it not saying anything and then he just sort of

just did that thing where he just puts his hand on my shoulder and just gives me like two taps he goes and I was like oh this motherfucker loves me

and I was like that's our closure that's it I was like oh that's good that's what I wanted that's what I wanted for 33 years

two taps just two taps on the shoulder and the two taps can tell you a lot. Yeah, for sure. Because you feel the weight of the moment.

Yeah. Already. It was like, you are basically mute. You can't express anything to me other than these two taps

on the shoulder. And it was like, the two tap of the second tap was a tiny squeeze. Yeah, a little squeeze. Yeah, yeah. And that was good.

That's meaningful. That's great. For people. But you're like the opposite of that. You go. You talk. I hug it out. I talk.

I kiss every person I get in this space. You know, I'm like an HR nightmare. I'm like just grabbing people all over town. Well, what was your mom? Was your mom emotional? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She wanted to talk everything out.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's good. That's why Jews are good for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She wanted to talk everything out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's good. Jews are good for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, I feel guilty about something, and I want to ruin your day by talking about it. Let's get it out there. Let's process it.

This is good for you for me to talk about me. Yeah. Did your dad see boy? He saw boy. Yep, he saw boy. He was very proud of it you know and he knew it was about him

he knew all that he was like oh my god he was embarrassed about a few things but he saw the the humor in it all you know

he's embarrassed not mad he's like I can't believe you put that fucking story about my bag of money in this fucking movie for everyone to see

yeah but he was probably more worried that people would wonder where it was and he wouldn't be able to find it yeah yeah yeah exactly

why'd you tell anybody about that? oh my god he did these there's basically i love i love talking about this stuff he um he had this other crazy crazy idea of uh of basically like um of farming lobster and sea urchins yeah like our main food back down there yeah and so like we live right on the ocean and he got these diggers and he was digging these trenches to put the sea water

down into these big long big you know giant pits that were going to become like these ocean farming areas

he was digging and digging and digging and he dug up about 30 bodies come on 30 skeletons from like 600 or 700 years ago dug up about 30 bodies. Come on.

30 skeletons from like 600, 700 years ago. Was it a burial ground or a shipwreck or what? Back in the day when people battled, where you died is where you were left. Right. And so down on the beaches were the areas for a lot of battles, a lot of fights. And it was like the way that Maori fought,

like go out to the beach and like have it out. Yeah. But when you died, you, in those days. Yeah. You were untouched and you just, the bodies were just sinking into the sand. Yeah. And that was it. So he found fucking 30 of these fucking people.

Yeah. And he was like, this is getting right in the way of my project of farming lobster and sea urchins. So he chucked all the bones away and then he didn't believe in ghosts and shit, but he was like, I knew I'd done something wrong. I kept waking up, some fucking old woman was sitting on the end of my bed

staring at me. I was like, is that a ghost? He was like, I guess so. So anyway, he went and told the elders and stuff, and they in fact got all the bones together and gave it a proper burial. Really? And the ghosts went away. But his mindset was like,

these fucking old dead bodies are just in the way of my money-making scheme. So the lobster farm never happened. Never happened. These trenches just sat there. He commits, though, that guy. Oh, he commits. But you imagine that, digging up a human skull He commits, though, that guy. Oh, he commits. But you imagine that, digging up a human skull and being, oh, fuck it. No one can see.

Fuck this shit and throwing it away. How many are there? Another one? Oh, 30? That's crazy. But so when you did What We Do in the Shadows, I mean, like, did you feel like that was a big departure? Or, like, you know, that was just big departure or like you know that was just for a funny you know i mean what what it was a departure that was also but again that film is about grief and grief of like the loss of your own life and you know and also the eternity of

living forever yeah which is like a lot of people i wish i could live forever no you don't because humans are so lazy yeah they could that's why the great jokes in there is, you know, I've read these books. There's like eight of them. And they're not very good at instruments. Because when you live forever, you're going to put it off. I'll learn to play violin next year. And there's plenty of time. The great character, though, was the really old vampire. He didn't do anything. Yeah. It was one of my favorite jokes. The great character, though, was the really old vampire. He didn't do anything. Yeah, yeah.

It was one of my favorite jokes in there. But they all kind of respected him. One of my favorite jokes in there that took a long time to decide if we should put in the film was Deacon, the character who goes, and he says in the early parts of the film, he said, I don't know if you know this, but I was a Nazi vampire. And there's footage of him. And he goes, they rounded up the vampires and made them become Nazis.

And then he's like, and then what he says is, well, anyway, after that war was over, he goes, I don't know if you know this, but those Nazis, they lost that war. Yeah. And we tested that in America and people were like what the fuck man of course we know that because we fucking kicked their asses but they thought it was bad taste to put that joke in there yeah and I was like no the point is he's lived so long he's seen 12 Holocausts. Yeah, right.

He was like, I don't know if you know about that war. It was just another one. Those guys, they lost that war. Sure. That was the kind of joke. If you live long enough, you see people repeating the same shit. Did you leave it in? We left it in. We left it in.

We thought, you know what, eventually you'll get it. Yeah, and when I watched it, I didn't know what to expect because I'm not a horror guy. I'm not necessarily a vampire guy, but the conceit somehow or another, because it was so funny, it worked know, like I'm not a horror guy. I'm not necessarily a vampire guy. But the conceit somehow or another because it was so funny, it worked. Yeah, I'm not a horror guy. And, you know, I used to love watching vampire films. But the reason we made it was because vampires were so unpopular in film at the time.

It's like vampires are so stupid. Nobody wanted vampires? Yeah. And I was like, oh, yeah. Vampires are actually pretty lame. Like, when you think about, like, they just sit around by themselves dressing up how they used to dress 200 years ago. No real friends talking about the same shit. So you just put a bunch of them together. They think they're very cool, but they're the least cool monsters there are.

Yeah, you feel bad for them all. Yeah. Yeah, it was very funny. What was your, did you have experience with the foster system? I mean, with the Hunt for the Wilder People? I mean. I didn't, no,

but there's, yeah, there are a lot of sad stories in New Zealand about kids who went through the foster system. That kid was great. You're very good at casting kids. You know, everyone thinks I love working with kids. I don't.

Yeah. It's very hard to work with kids. Yes. But you do it all the time. I do it all the time because like, also here's my secret. Yeah. Here's my secret.

Yeah. I cast the kids. Yeah. I use them. Yeah. They get great performances and then they're kind of ruined. And so I sort of toss them.

Get a new one. Is that some kind of weird, is that abuse? Because I find that they learn tricks. Kids, you know, you look at Hollywood kids, you know,

they learn tricks in their early jobs and it just ruins their performances. Then they're just like, then they're actors. After the first movie. Then they're actor kids.

Yeah. But like, non-actor kids are the best. Yeah. They're so great, like natural, they don't know that there are tricks. So usually you did, you cast non-actor kids? Always cast-actor kids are the best they're so great like natural they don't know that there are tricks

so usually you did you cast non-actor kids always cast non-actors huh yeah where'd you find that kid in Wilder People he was

he just lived in Wellington and I ended up doing a he just came in for some casting for a commercial I did and I thought

he was fantastic and I just cast him on the spot for my film yeah and he was amazing he was like he was and he thought he was fantastic and I just cast him on the spot for my film. Yeah. And he was amazing. He was. He was.

And also he hated nature. Yeah. He was the kid. He was a silly kid. Right. He would go out into the woods and stuff and I'd say, okay, I want you to sit here on this log. He looked at the log and there'd be like a spider web on it. He's like, oh, I don't think my character would sit on that log.

oh, I don't think my character would sit on that log. And Sam seemed like he had a great time doing that. Sam was fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. It was good for him to come back to New Zealand where he belongs and do some work. Yeah, I talked to him during the pandemic. It was a great conversation.

He's kind of a beautifully cranky dude. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's seen it all. I mean, he was in Hunt for the Red October. Yeah was a great conversation. He's kind of a beautifully cranky dude. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's seen it all. He was in Hunt for the Red October. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was Damien in Omen 3.

Yeah, I remember. Yeah, the older Damien. The older Damien. I always give him shit about that. I'm like, hey, when you were doing Omen 3, what was your character's, what was the motivation in that?

To be the Antichrist. And Event Horizon, the other great Sam Neill film, Event Horizon. Yeah. He's great. He's a great actor. Now, my late partner was a director, Lynn Shelton. Yes.

I don't know if you've met each other somewhere, but she would try to get me to watch Ragnarok all the time. Because I'm not a Marvel guy. She's like, no, but Taika did it, and it's different, and you'll like it. I'm like, I don't know. And then I watched it, and I liked it. And I have no sense of Marvel. And do you feel that, was that a good experience for you?

It was a great experience. I didn't really have this. I read a lot of comic books when I was a kid. Sure. Thor, admittedly wasn't one of them but I was aware of Marvel

and what they were doing and I was enjoying I loved Iron Man I was enjoying those films yeah but it wasn't anything on my radar it wasn't anything

I was going to end up doing I mean look at my films you know nothing says oh this is a trajectory to go and do Thor yeah but I thought

this is an opportunity to learn something to learn about studio systems and how they make big films and also an opportunity

to get some money because I just had my second kid and you know sure need money for the kids so I went and did it

and I had a great experience and they were fantastic to me and made a lot of great friends on that project yeah how was it received?

fantastic yeah it was very very well received so did you write the script? no I did a lot of on that project. Yeah. How was it received? Fantastic. Yeah, yeah. It was very, very well received. So did you write the script? No, I did a lot of passes on the script. Okay.

My process on the day is like to make a lot of shit up and improvise or throw ideas at the actors. Because I felt like it again had some humanity to it.

I don't know how they usually are because I really don't watch a lot of them. But it seemed like there was that balance of comedy and self-awareness. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when you look at Thor, right, he's a billionaire, trillionaire kid who lives in

outer space. Yeah. You know, he lives in a castle in outer space. He's so disconnected from the rest of the universe. And that's the thing that – but like everyone else, it's very hard to relate to a character like that, but like everyone else, he wants to impress his dad. And his dad dies in that one, right?

And his dad dies in that one and without him finally impressing him, you know, and he's like, that's really the heart of the story. Yeah, a grief again. That his dad died before he got a chance to show him how good he could be.

And then, I guess the other one came later. You know, that one, like, I don't know. See, because I don't know Marvel movies, like, you know, in the second Thor, I guess some people were like the CGI was different or there was issues around certain things. I don't know what your experience was. In what one?

In Love and Thunder. Right, right, right, right, yeah. But, you know, there was like Marvel certain things. I don't know what your experience was. In what one? In Love and Thunder. Right, right, right, right, yeah. But, you know, there was like Marvel freak out around it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the nerds. But for me, like, I don't have any concept of any of that. And when the black and white thing happened, I'm like, oh, this is an homage to George Melies in The Man in the Moon.

Oh, my God, amazing. This is like, yeah, this is like, Tyke is doing this on purpose, but I don't know what your intention was. But I was looking at it cinematically. Oh, yeah, on the moon. Oh my God, amazing. This is like, this is like, Tyke is doing this on purpose, but I don't know what your intention was, but I was looking at it cinematically. Oh yeah, on the moon.

Yeah, yeah. Can you imagine that and right now, I'm like, oh yeah, I get that. Black and white on the moon. Right.

Shit, I might as well give him that moon a face. Yeah, right. And have the bullet go right into his eye. Yeah, yeah. But Jojo Rabbit goes back to

some sort of fascination with the the almost childishness of Nazis yeah yeah

that's right and look you know we all love Schindler's List and we all love those films but just heavy

again heavy sure probably I could watch Schindler's List maybe once every again once every ten years maybe, five years. Yeah, yeah.

But I think, you know, obviously the conversation needs to keep happening. And what it came from was like there was a Guardian poll that they did in America. And you could find out the stats. Someone else can find out the stats. It's easy to find out. But they asked people under 20 these questions. And I think like 57% of people under 20 had never heard of the Holocaust. And like 65 had never heard of Auschwitz.

And that was like 10 years ago. I had a line about the future maybe 20 like 10 years ago. I used to do, I had a line about the future maybe 20, 30 years ago where I'm like, it's going to get to the point where kids are going to be like, oh wait, Hitler's the guy with the mustache, right?

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And the whole thing when that war ended was never forget. Yeah. And we're forgetting.

And so we have to keep telling that story. We have to keep these, you know, if people are like, oh, another Nazi movie. Yeah. Well, we have to keep doing that story. We have to keep these, you know, we, if people are like, oh, another Nazi movie. Well, we have to keep doing it because clearly people are remembering. And, but we have to keep doing it in different ways and like pulling the audience in with humor. Right.

With lightness and then showing them how ridiculous. And kids. Those kids were, again, you know, sort of gifted kids. sort of gifted kids. But like it does, you know, having Hitler as an imaginary friend because you're so bought into the Nazi thing and the acceptance of the Nazi thing and wanting to be part of it and all that, and this kid, what is he, 10, 11? Yeah, yeah.

And also Hitler can only know what an 11-year-old knows because it comes from his brain. Right. And to have a clown Hitler, I mean, that hasn't happened in a while. No. Not since the producers probably are Nazi. And some people were like, oh, in bad taste. I'm like, hang on.

Someone was doing it in 1939. Yeah, Chaplin. Yeah. Yeah. But it was different because it was the conception of the kid and the kid's own self-judgment and also having an absent father that was a mythological being in a way. So Hitler was the best thing he can conjure up. Yeah.

And he was a sweet kid. Yeah, it was a delicate balance there. And it doesn't really... It's really fascinating as well. 9-11. A lot of kids don't know what that is. They know this thing called 9-11. But there are kids who don't know what happened.

There's no collective sense of history anymore. Everything is happening all at once. So if no one's giving context to anything, you're only going to see clips of things. You're not going to know what everything is happening all at once. So if no one's giving context to anything, you're only going to see clips of things. You're not going to know what it is or what it represents

or why it happened or how it happened or the policy that went involved and who's going to know any of that? I guess it's for me growing up

and seeing Platoon and being like, I don't know what this is. What is this Vietnam War? Right, sure. And it's like, you know, seeing clips from it

and my memory of Vietnam, even though I wasn't even alive, is old grainy footage of people running around and torpedoes and the napalm and stuff. Yeah. But I don't know

and I'm like, you know, I feel it's interesting and even the Bosnian War. Yeah. You know, that's the one that nobody knows about and that's the one that nobody knows about.

And that was the biggest example of people being horrible to each other since World War II. Yeah. And there were neighbors. And there were neighbors, yeah. Well, I mean, also depending on where you grow up culturally, like I noticed that even if I travel to Canada, that I get a tremendous amount of relief because the psychic cancer that is pervading America, they know about it, but it isn't their life. So, you know, so I think a lot of times what you know is relative to your personal history and then the rest is sort of like, you know, you pick and choose.

Yeah. Or somebody contextualizes something. That is interesting because because, you know, especially like, I don't know really what this is, but like around the world there's this idea that like you must know about everything. Yeah. You must have a comment. You must have an opinion

and know about every single thing going on. I'm like, okay, well, how many of you know about the things that Maori have gone through in New Zealand? Right. How many of you know about, you know, the land wars in the 1800s and what we went through? Right. How many of you know about, you know, the land wars in the 1800s and what we went through? How many of you know that it was illegal, you know, to speak our language in school? How many of you know about what we lost?

No one. Of course not. But you'd be expected to jump on someone's side, you know, whenever something's on Instagram or something. Right. It's like you need to be on. Right. When the global culture decides.

Yeah. When the momentum picks up. When the algorithm. Yeah. That dictates, you know, what we're supposed to know is important decides collectively what is important, then all of a sudden everyone's up. I live in – this is an Armenian neighborhood, and they've gone through horrendous history. I'm not real clear on it, but I respect the fact that, like, all right, something bad happened. Yeah. Something bad happened.

Yeah. Asking minorities to care about other minorities is, yeah, we should. But it's just a funny thing where it's like, you know, I understand a little bit like why some minorities, they go, oh, okay, you're making a big deal about that. What about us? Well, yeah, but that's what you've taken upon yourself to tell your own stories, right? So that's what's interesting about the reservation dog sting is that, you know, you understood that the experience of indigenous people was common but different. And the perception of those people was limited at best and that you now had the power to tell the stories the way you wanted to and in a way that was authentic to your experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it makes such a fucking difference.

I mean, I can't shut up about, like, you know, I'm the one when I told Sterling, I'm like, have you got anything for me? I want to be part of this. And he put me in it that third season. It was great. But to be on a set that's all native and to see them, you know, have the freedom of mind and the freedom of creativity to do that and work together. You could feel the kind of elevation, the pride of having the opportunity and the ability to play on the big field, right? Yeah. That was fucking great, man.

But this new movie, which I watched as well, it's so funny when I actually do my homework how I need to pride myself on it by the way I did all my research you did you're the only person who's ever done it really one time

someone when I was casting for something I think I was casting for Jojo Rabbit and someone said oh this actress she's a massive

their agent she's a huge fan of your work she really wants to meet and I went and had breakfast with her and she said so I've heard about your work and I can't wait to see something.

Some people come here and they act like I really like the show and then the ones that they name, I'm like, oh, you just listened to two last week, didn't you? My favorite one was the Kim Deal. Oh yeah, right? Yeah, I don't even know, but I know

almost always I have, you know, a good conversation and then like it goes away from me and my producer

deals with it. So he becomes my memory. Like I literally like, what did I talk about that? Because I'm in it.

Yeah. But this one again, Next Goal Wins, I don't want to spoil it for anybody but it's another beautiful movie. Grief.

Exactly. But you don't know it. Yeah. Yeah. And the turn is kind of intense. And the story, being that it's a true story, and I like all this sort of Maori stuff, that the rituals of getting up to games

and the sort of strange way that they handle a kind of structured ritual of competition you know with other teams because I imagine all that's real right yeah yeah yeah

well in New Zealand here's the thing I come from like a rugby playing nation and I don't know that much about about soccer

to be honest but what I wanted to do was to make a film with Pacific Islanders on it and that's what

my I just wanted to come back home come. And that's what my, you know, I just wanted to come back home, come back to the Pacific, and just put, you know, put brown people on screen again and come back. And it was just so nice to be in Hawaii with Samoans and Maori and everyone together

making this film about, and it's such a crazy true story too, like the idea of the shame of a team losing 31-0, and that's still the record for the biggest international loss in soccer, 31-0 to Australia. Yeah. That's like a goal every three minutes.

Yeah, it's crazy, but what's interesting is the kind of team spirit and the island pride, you know, kind of balanced with that the, the Island pride, you know, kind of balanced with that guy that you use a few times. What's his name? The guy who plays the owner of the team or the, Oh yeah.

Yeah. Oscar, Oscar, Oscar Carly. That, that his disposition was, it was really about the esteem of the kids, you know,

over the idea of winning. Yeah. So it just became, you know, over the idea of winning. Yeah. So it just became, you know, a tribal kind of responsibility, a service. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the kids have something to focus on, right? And that character kind of balances the whole thing all the way through. Yeah, I think Oscar is actually probably the most important part of that. Right.

In a way. Yeah. You know, he's trying to pull these two worlds together. Yeah. And keep them, you know, keep them from falling apart. And you don't really know why Michael Fassbender's character makes a choice that he did, and it sort of unfolds. But, you know, you do have a hard time empathizing with him for a while.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's a fascination and an obsession with making characters likable at the moment. You've got to have a likable character. Look at the last detail. Jack Nicholson's character is not a nice guy throughout the entire movie. He doesn't do one nice thing.

But he's the most watchable character and I like him. Well, that was interesting where you have the sort of rules and the job, you know, playing against the unavoidable empathy that they're both kind of having. And ultimately, it doesn't really win out. Yeah. When they're taking Randy across the country and it's just the perfect, you know, set up. And they did everything they could for the kid. They did, yeah. But they still had to do their duty.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then when they walk away from it, it's almost as if it just goes away. Yeah. They're like, well, that was that one. Right, exactly. But with yours, I mean, you had to figure out how to take a story, which is the underdog team, not an unusual story. Not an unusual story, but because it was a real story and it was your culture that, you know, you were able to infuse it with what really happened, but also with the nature of telling native stories.

Yeah. And, but also I had no interest in telling the exact story. Yeah. The true story. Because it's very, you know, I've changed a lot of things. Yeah. And I feel like if you want to see the real story, then watch the documentary. But even then, documentaries aren't real. No.

Documentaries, they're edited to form a point of view. Sure. It depends who's in charge and how much say the subject has. Yeah. You could edit, you know, take a doc, you know, I was saying yesterday to someone, you could take Bowling for Columbine and re-edit it. Yeah. To have a completely different point of view. Well, yeah. They might do that after the fascists win. Yeah. They re-edit it to have a completely different point of view.

Well, yeah, they might do that after the fascist one. Yeah, re-edit everything. Yeah, yeah, this was a success story. Yeah, yeah. So I gave myself permission just to focus on some relationship stuff with the coach and the Fafafine character, Jaya, making more of that relationship. Because you need somewhere for a character like Michael's character,

you need somewhere for them to go. And for someone who's lost a child, he had a great loss in his life, and then to meet someone yes who kind of in some ways like you know is a surrogate but very different

in that they're a trans person yes and I just thought well that's a great thing to focus on and not make a big deal out of it as well

like let's not make a big deal out of the trans thing and that cultural thing because you know there's a level of acceptance around that stuff,

which has been around forever in the Pacific. Yeah. Where everyone in the West is just starting to have this conversation now. They're trying to figure this out and understand it. Oh, there's certain things we have to say and all that. And moralize about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wish it was more understanding it.

Yeah, yeah. And also just saying, oh, that makes you happy. Can we move on to something else that's more important? Right. It seems like even in, I'm sure, a movie that does not look favorably on by Native people, but in Little Big Man, there are trans characters, and it's just part of the social fabric of the tribe. Yeah, and it's accepted.

I think in a more Hollywood version of this or, you know, by a different filmmaker, there'd be that big speech, you know, with someone saying, it's okay to be different, you know. A big, long, boring, stupid speech. But that was not your intent. It was just to embrace the idea of tribal acceptance. Yeah, and just show that this is what it is. And no one talks about it because everyone accepts it.

And then you have the coach who's got his own problems pushing back on it. Yeah. A bit. A little bit. Yeah, and just because it's, and again, it's a character who deeply hates himself. Yeah. And feels guilty and blames himself for a lot of things and then takes that out on everyone around him. Right.

And it's like. And I thought you wrote a line with that too. That could have gotten even uglier. Oh, right. With the. With his character, you know, in terms of taking it out on people. Yeah. Because it was.

Because you. I mean, you seem to have a really good sense of that. Because if you tip it too far, then you deny the possibility of empathy. Like if the guy turns into a real monster who doesn't have a change, then what do you have? Then you have a 70s movie. But it's not necessarily a happy ending. Yeah. But you do feel that.

A 70s movie is a great yeah sure I think everyone wants to be Hal Ashby if they're honest but like pretty great stuff great stuff

all different yeah and like just when you're talking about 70s movies I was thinking about Coming Home oh god

and like just like you know and that film I think for me even though it's not a comedy is like there's just I keep thinking about it my whole life I've been thinking about that me too but oddly film, I think, for me, even though it's not a comedy, is like there's just...

I keep thinking about it. My whole life I've been thinking about that. Me too. But oddly, I think about when Robert Carradine's character shot himself up with air and committed suicide when they couldn't get into the room. Yes, yes, yes. Oh my God. Yes, yes. Fuck. Right? And then Bruce Dern... Walking into the ocean.

Oh my God. But that intense scene when John Voight comes in and he's dealing with Jane Fonda and with Dern, and Dern's got the gun, and he doesn't actually know why he's fucking doing this and all that. And then they play, what's the fucking, it's the Tim Buckley song as he walks off into the water. Yeah, yeah.

But films like that, those 70s films, all the President's Men, all the Hal Ashby films, those things have just, they're the things that stick with me, and I think a lot of people, when they ask me, they're like, oh, what's your influences? I'm like, comedies, comedies, comedies. Very few comedies. A lot of them are just good dramas,

great films, Spirit of the Beehive, which is another really great Spanish film that I've always gone back to. But the early Malick films, of course. But Coming Home is a great character-driven piece where you're just seeing people just bumping into each other for a couple of hours. I just watched, it was interesting because, you know,

I've watched The French Connection several times, but there was another movie done by, I think, someone involved with The French Connection, I don't remember the director's name, called The Seven Ups with Roy Scheider. It's a cop movie. But it was one of these under,

like, I thought, like, why doesn't anyone ever talk about this movie? Because it's of the same time. It's shot like The French Connection.

And it, it's got one of those endings where there's closure, but it's, it's gnarly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. They just had balls to do that. But even for those fucking films, those characters are not likable. No. Yeah. Most of them are fucking racist white to do that. But also, those fucking films, those characters are not likable. No. Yeah.

Most of them are fucking racist white cops. Sure. You know, beating up black people. And then they just go and do their thing and, like, you're like, well, there's a cool character. Yeah. Well, yeah. Popeye Doyle was, like, one of the most menacing fucking characters. He shot an FBI guy and didn't even think twice about it.

You remember he accidentally kills that guy when they're chasing down the Frenchman? And then he's just like, fuck him. And then he just keeps looking at you. But this one seemed to be, even though you did it a few years ago, kind of a return to what you're good at

and what you're comfortable with. Not that you're not good at everything, but is the next movie going to be a big departure or what are you thinking? The next one, what I'm trying to do on the next one is a film, an adaptation of a Kizu Ishiguro book called Clara and the Sun. Okay.

It's a really great book and it's about an AA that in the near future people have these artificial friends. Sure. And the way I want to do that is that it's not like having Siri or like a robot that's connected to the internet. Or her. Or her. It's just basically like a lifelike robot who hangs around with you,

who doesn't know very much. Are you going to play it? I'll be in there. Don't you worry. I kind of questions that. But I like the idea that in the future it's just having company

is what humans want. You don't want a robot who's super smart or can tell you what the weather's like in Japan. It's just a person to hang out with you

who doesn't know much and might be good at listening. Oh, that's funny. That sounds like it's about this. A companion robot. Sad and funny. Sad and funny.

But underneath it all, the idea is, what I'm fascinated by is the idea that love is a program. Because, you know, if you've gone to enough couples counseling, they'll tell you, you can program yourself to love someone. Make different choices. You can convince yourself that you're in love with someone. You can tell someone, I love you, 50 times a day. Eventually, your brain will give up and go, okay, we're in love. It's a broad spectrum of what love means, right? Yeah.

I mean, being in love is, in my experience, being that maybe yours, depending on what kind of childhood you come from, when you're in love, you're probably smart not to trust it because it's going to get chaotic. Yeah. And it's going to get messy. It's going to be really exciting for a while, but then untenable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's basically all relationships until you feel. Until you program yourself. Until you program yourself. Until you program yourself.

Until you give up and just sit with it. Right. Yeah, no, I'm a little bit more hopeful than that with love, but it is an idea

that I thought about. If that's, if the human brain is basically a computer that can be programmed to love, then what's the difference with a robot?

Yeah. With AI? Yeah. How far along are you in it i'm writing it okay well it's great talking to you man i love you brother i love you too i really uh i think you are hey we went through everything i haven't i haven't told my therapist half this shit but i i think you're a real uh genius guy in that you know in terms of You're a real genius guy in terms of being a director who truly has a point of view and a voice that is distinguishable. And it goes through all the work, and that's an amazing thing.

Congrats. I love you, man. Love you, too. Thank you, brother. There you go. Genius. Next Goal Wins is playing now in theaters. Hang out for a minute, people.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now.. We can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the

Colorado Mammoth at a special 5pm start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Okay, so a couple things.

Be careful this Thanksgiving. I'll talk to you day of. I got my optometrist on, Dr. Elliot Kane, who's primarily a trumpeter, but he's mostly an optometrist, but he's a jazz trumpet player. It doesn't matter. And also, if you have some time this week,

you might want to go listen to episode 702 with Rob Reiner. You can hear that for free right now on whatever podcast app you're using and listen to Rob tell stories about his friend Albert. It's funny, your father, you just said, said you were the brooding kid. I was. But you talk to your father and within seconds he'll be my son's friend Albert.

Yes. The funniest guy I've ever seen in my life. He was the funniest. And Albert, Albert was a prodigy at age 16. A comedy prodigy? Yes, a comedy prodigy. at age 16. A comedy prodigy? Yes, a comedy prodigy. At age 16, he could make

not just adults laugh, but professional, I mean, you know, world-class professional comedians. My dad, he'd make them laugh at age 16. It was an amazing thing. And you guys have been friends since you were what? Since we're 16. That's crazy, right?

And you're still friends now? Yeah. He came up to me last night, you know, because he won't come on the show. He won't? No. Why? I don't know. You tell me.

You know why? Because you don't pay him. That's why. Really? Is that it? I think that's it. It's not because he doesn't like to talk about himself? No, no.

He's happy to talk. He just doesn't want to waste all that good comedy. What do you think it would take? I don't know. A limo and 500 bucks? I't know but he's but he's brilliant yeah for no particular reason at all go back and check out episode 702 for rob stories about his friend albert as in albert brooks no reason and you can also get every episode of wtf ad free when you sign up for wtf plus just go to the link in the episode

description and or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus here's some guitar I was trying to do a thing I was trying to do a thing Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. That was a hard one. But I think I could polish it up.