WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1492 - Jesse David Fox

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

Jesse David Fox thinks comedy is serious business. As the comedy reporter at Vulture, he’s been writing about it for more than a decade. Now Jesse is attempting to explain the role of comedy in our ever-evolving culture in his newly published Comedy Book. Marc, as you may imagine, has some thoughts. Jesse and Marc talk about standup as an art form, the meaning of edginess, the melding of comedy with tragedy and grief, and the reason Maria Bamford is their favorite comedian working today. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how is everybody how are things going at home how are things going at home? How are things going at work? What's going on with your parents? What is happening with your kids?

Oh, my God. The options are infinite. How's your partner? How's that guy who lives down the street? What about that guy that keeps walking by your house? Maybe you should ask him what's up. Who knows? Wandering around New York. That's what I've

been doing. A lot of walking, a lot of trying to find vegan food, eating. Things have changed since I've been coming here over the years. It's odd being a vegan person, but I'm not missing it. I literally stay across the street from Katz's and I think about it and nothing happens. So I guess that's a good sign. Let me do some business up front here. First of all, on the show today, Jesse David Fox is here. He's the senior editor at New York Magazine's Vulture site. And since like 2012, he's been covering comedy for Vulture. I've talked to him many times for print interviews, and I've been on his podcast a couple of times. It's called Good One, a podcast about jokes. He wrote the new book, Comedy Book, How Comedy Conquered Culture and the Magic That Makes It Work. I read the whole thing. I read the

whole thing because it's about my business. It's like reading the Cliff Nesteroff book. Sometimes I'll read the whole book. I don't know why I say that like i need to be proud but i've been reading a lot more lately which is good i don't think i ever i think the problem with reading in me is when i sit down to read like i have to actually think about people i know who read a lot and just think about them saying all right i'm gonna read for a couple hours because for me to sit down and do anything for a couple hours, I got a million other things that need to be done that aren't even major. Small things, things that probably aren't urgent, like cooking, eating, fixing the refrigerator. There's just, I don't allot the time.

And as I get older, I guess maybe it's just because it's enjoyable. I'm like, just shut up and sit down and get into it. Read the book, dummy. I don't know what the hell my brain's doing. I don't know what I think I'm doing. I don't think I'm wasting time, but I don't have a lot to show for myself. I have this, what I'm saying right now to show for myself, but the other 24 hours and change, I don't know. Not always a lot. Comedy, sure. But what about that, those chunks of free time? I usually frame it around homework, like things I need to do. I don't know how much I do for enjoyment. Man, you know, this isn't your problem. So listen,

Los Angeles, people, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on December 1st, 13th, and 28th, the Elysian Theater on December 6th, 15th, and 22nd, and Largo on December 12th and January 9th. Then I'm in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows. San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. I will be hosting a screening of a beautiful print of McCabe and Mrs. Miller at the Roxy Theater on February 4th.

You can go to Roxy.com. I'm just telling you that because as many of you know, it's probably among my favorite movies in the top five. And I have been trying to understand it on a deeper and deeper level throughout my entire adult life. And my buddy Peter Conheim, who's a film archivist, has his own print, and he's been asking me to come to his house to watch it, which seems weird, but it's probably fine. But now it just worked out. He lives in the Bay Area, and he got the Roxy on board,

and we're going to show this beautiful print of that movie, and I'm going to say a few words. Not like it's dead, but like it's dead but like it's alive like it's alive i'll be in portland maine at the state theater on thursday march 7th medford massachusetts outside boston at the chevalier theater on friday march 8th providence rhode island at the strand theater yeah on saturday march 9th terrytown new york at the terrytown music hall on sunday march 10th in atlanta georgia i'm at the buckhead theater on friday march 22nd go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets and also i'll be adding dates here and there as we move towards whatever i'm going

to do with this hour i know some people are like why not this this town? Why not here? Why didn't you come back here? Well, I'll add more dates after this run as we head towards the fall, and I need to polish it up and get out to those other markets. So don't freak out like I'm never coming to your town again. Here's some other big news. Christmas is coming, and there are new Brian Jones cap mugs available to purchase starting today at noon Eastern. These are the handmade mugs you get if you're a guest on WTF. There are two versions available for the holidays, both based on the original art we used from the early days of WTF.

Again, these are available today starting at noon Eastern at WTF mugs dot co WTF mugs.co oh he's got a is a dedicated website i love this design these are the original ones that made me very excited when brian jones was an early fan of the show and we came up with the idea to provide some high-end swag for the guests and he made these uh these very specific mugs with the original cats on it. And this one, the new version of the original design-ish, has the new cats and the cat angels, the original crew of three. The new crew of three and the old crew of three and my face. People love these mugs. I hear from, it's one of the only things that some of the celebrities I've talked to reflect on even.

It's like, I love that mug. What about the conversation? Don't remember it at all. The mug is great. I use it every day. Okay, but I've been walking around, been eating at some good places. I guess if you're in New York,

there's someone turned me onto this place down on, where is it, like Mott Street somewhere. Luann's Wild Ginger. It's almost like a Thai vegan place that's just fucking amazing. I ate there twice. It's on Broom Street here in New York City. But where else did I go? We went to, Brendan and I, this is the weird thing about when you eat vegan is that um you find

a place why not eat there several times spicy moon was very good sasha won uh vegan place butcher's daughter very good so i don't know i i'm still pretty excited about eating this way and i'm not missing anything i might miss the russ andughters a little bit. But aside from that, I saw a few movies while I was here. I went to see The Holdovers, which was pretty good. I went to see, oh man, we went to a friends and family screening of the Color Purple musical, because I'm going to talk to the director. That was spectacular. Just crying like an idiot when I watch musicals.

I shouldn't be ashamed of that anymore. I've earned that, haven't I? And I also watched a screener of this movie Memory with Peter Sarsgaard and Jessica Chastain that was devastatingly beautiful. And I have not seen a film like that, you know, kind of ride this edge of complete sadness and also beauty and love. It was spectacular. And I've done some reading. That's what I'm doing. I'm wandering around New York, taking it in again. I walk by this hole in the ground that seemed familiar to me.

I was on Second Avenue. There's this giant. It's not even a construction site. It's just what's left over after they took the building away, just hole in the ground. I realized, oh my God, that was at church. That was a second and second. It was one of the places I got sober. It was very important in my early sobriety, the second and second meeting.

Now it's just a hole in the ground and I'm hoping that doesn't mean anything. the second and second meeting. Now it's just a hole in the ground and I'm hoping that doesn't mean anything. Got to be careful with my brain not to read into events as being symbolic or representing something that I don't quite understand. I got to reel in the mystical sometimes because that part of the brain can't trust it, cannot trust it. So anyway, let me talk a little bit about this conversation you're about to hear. Jesse David Fox is a guy that I've known for a long time. He's written about the podcast. He's written about me. I've talked to him many times on different, for print and for his podcast and other things, as I said before, but he's really trying to, this is, these couple of books that I've read recently,

you know, Cliff's book, Outrageous, and also Jesse's book, the comedy book, How Comedy Conquered Culture and the Magic That Makes It Work, are really kind of, they're engaging, entertaining texts that, you know, are documenting comedy as in a, not only in a critical way and in a cultural commentator type of way, but also in a historical way. These are in a lot of ways function as histories, Jesse's book of modern comedy and Cliff's book about the arc of controversy in comedy. But I'm just bringing that up because I've read these two kind of back to back. But Jesse's book really deals with modern comedy, not going back that far, you know, sort of like dealing with some of my generation, but mostly the generation after me, and also the transition that comedy made with social media platforms and, you know, with SNL,

with sketch, he just kind of brings it all in and really kind of focuses in a fairly intellectual way about the impact and uh you know unfolding of of modern comedy in all these different uh areas and what was interesting to me is like i have definite opinions about the impact of of a certain generation of comics after me that you know we're not we're not contentious about it, but, but I, I, I was sort of came around to his point of view. And then his book goes all the way through, you know, two generations down from me, you know, there's the generation after me. And then there's another one in terms of these waves of comedy. Uh, and I'm completely out of the loop. So this is one of those conversations where I kind of realized like, all right, dude, you're, you're not really on the pulse. You do see these people around,

but in terms of, you know, the active kind of ongoing momentum of new comedy talent is something I'm quite removed from. And, and it's a weird thing to admit. And I've known it for a few years now that, that like, I don't know who the fuck's doing what anymore. And that's just by virtue of age and because my life is full and I have my world and I go do what I do. But I'm not in the race anymore. And I'm not seeing it necessarily as a competition, but there is turnover. There are new generations. There are new talents.

There is turnover. There are new generations. There are new talents. Sometimes I'll see them on, like I didn't know anything about, you know, the world of the new LGBTQ comics, the sketch comics where Bowen Yang comes from. He talks about Kate Berlant, who I've talked to, but it's just, you know, Bo Burnham, social media.

There's just a world of it that he puts into context that I, as an old guy, was not necessarily quite hip to. So it's an engaged conversation. Obviously, I have some dug-in opinions about certain things, but also it's one of those conversations where I'm learning things about the business I'm in, and I'm also being a bit of a stubborn old man. Again, the book is called Comedy Book, How Comedy Conquered Culture and the Magic That Makes It Work. It's now available wherever you get books.

And this is me and the author of that book, Jesse David Fox, getting into it back at the garage in Los Angeles. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption

actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive.

FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. So, I read the whole book. The whole book. That's so, I really appreciate it. Is anyone else doing that? More people than I expected.

Oh, yeah? Like who? You mean people who are interviewing you? Yeah. Or just in general? Well, I think both. How long has it been out? It's been out for about a little less than a week.

Yeah. But I've had people who I sent it to said they're either planning on just reading the beginning and then saying they read the whole thing or comedians reading the sections that I write about them and then being like, you know what, I'll read the whole book. Oh, yeah? Which I expected comedians to.

Like, which comedians would that be? You didn't say anything bad. You said, like, which comedians. Well, the book has only been out recently, so I think it's, excuse me, I was talking to John Early yesterday. Who? John Early. Oh, okay, yeah.

And I write about him and Caperland. And he read that part and he really appreciated it. And then he said he's excited to go back to the beginning and read the rest of the book. Well, it's interesting about people just even getting into the book. Because I embark on this thing and I'm kind of a through line in there. Yeah. I feel that on some level our conversations and this show has contextualized a lot of stuff for you. Huge, yeah.

I imagine that you wouldn't have read Denial of Death. Hmm. If it wasn't for this show. Hadn't I talked about it forever? I think that is probably true. I don't know if it was on my radar, but now I'm trying to remember if I had any source material for that other than you talking about it all the time. Yeah. But that is why it is a very Marc Maron book beyond the fact that you're in it a lot and WTF is in it a lot.

And those early episodes shaped my interest and a lot of where my career went. Yeah. That denial of death and the perspective of that book is also huge throughout the entire book, even though I only mentioned it once. Right. Well, I mean, it's one of those, it's why I always talked about it. Yeah. You know, in terms of framing that idea of transference onto, you know, whatever.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's very helpful. Yeah. Somehow when you're, especially when you lack belief. Yes. And you crave understanding. Yeah. And I think also the idea of the craving of belief, trying to find things, trying to find meaning, I think is a really big thing for me and a thing that I try to explore.

And I think part of what this book is, is about like we're in a time post religion for a lot of people. Yeah. And very not post religion for others. Yes. If you could still call it religion. But there is a search for something to replace it. And there's lots of things that have been of people, comedy and comedians as tellers of information and organizers of the world have been a source of both comfort and, like, perspective. So I think that is in it as well, which is, like, especially on the Internet, I think the value of comedians has only increased because people are like, I need something to hold on to.

I need someone to trust. Yeah. And comedians, for better or for worse, have become those people. Yeah. I don't, like, you know, I think that was an evolution of things. So I don't think that that was always the way it was. I think that because I just read Cliff Nesteroff's book, Outrage, and I read them back to back. And there is some crossover, but he's doing a deeper dive into the history of controversy.

Now, it seems that, and I'm not going to lose that thread, but it seems that, you know, your book is really about how culture – how comedy impacts culture now. You know, you go back a bit, but it's really – we're talking the last 20, what, 20, 25? I think it's like 1990 on. I organize it partly when millennials grew up and also post the comedy boom of – Of the 80s. Of the 80s. So, like, when comedy – because you can see just a clear trajectory of where comedy evolved and also because the internet is in the 90s. So I think it's really about like what we think of as a modern culture.

But I like that thread that you talk about that. I don't know that in my understanding or – I'm not in contention with you on many points in this. I think it elucidated some things for me in a way. But, I mean, this is my life. Like, you're on the outside. You know, I've been doing comedy professionally since 1988. So I started comedy at the end of the boom. And, you know, we always heard it.

It was this mythological time where, you know, you'd go to clubs and it became sort of a joke where the club owner would be like, I don't know what's going on was packed last week. And you're like, how long ago was that week? You know, when it was packed. But the idea that that comedy replaces religion, I don't know. I don't know that I jive with that. But I think the idea that, you know, comedians are looked to to sort of now report something or tell the truth. I think that is true culturally. I don't think that was always the case. I think that somehow or another, you know, the idea of Lenny Bruce and the idea of George Carlin and the idea of comedy at that moment, you know, that through line. And I think prior as well, you know, which everybody tracks. You know, you go from Lenny to Richard and George and they go their directions with it. But I think that that whole idea of comedians as philosophers and truth tellers was really hijacked by these comics that, you know, you talk about later in the book who have tribalized comedy.

Yeah. later in the book who have tribalized comedy. But I think there's a difference between that truth-telling and reporting, which I think you go to great lengths to establish The Daily Show as a shift in how a certain age group got their information, period. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's partly, as I say, it's not like it came out of nowhere in so much as there were people looking for places to consume news that they trusted. And it's partly that people started trusting mainstream news less and less over the last

40 years as well, right? Part of this shift is because our trust in institutions has decreased significantly. So then people are just looking for things. And then comedians, via Jon Stewart and The Daily Show, was given an opportunity to do this thing. And to John's credit, they figured out a way of providing people information that worked really well. Right. But a lot of those kids, like, they didn't want to watch the news. The news was boring.

Yeah, exactly. It wasn't even, you know, this evolving distrust of the news. They just didn't give a shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, if anything, he elevated the information and conversation and social engagement with, you know, what is happening in the world for a generation that might not have given issue. Yeah. And he was good at it. And they had a large research staff. So there are things behind it.

He also was active in discrediting Fox News primarily, but a lot of cable news in general terms and the nature of how the discourse was evolving. Right. Right. Like if you look back to him when he was on Crossfire, just the fact that Tucker moment. Yeah. Yeah. Where he's he's with two journalists and he leaves that acting like he has the most journalistic integrity. Now, he also, as a comedian, self-deprecates any time they try to push back on his journalistic integrity by being like, I'm just, I'm after cranky anchors. I don't, I'm not, but clearly, either if, even if he didn't want to cop to it, he shaped how a lot of people started to want to consume the news. And then also for people younger,

they didn't know a time where this didn't exist. So now when they grow up, people maybe 10 years younger than I, 15 years younger than I, comedians are just people that provide context or information about the news. And that is just a fact. They don't know that was ever that it was like that there was like they don't know who more Saul is.

And they don't know that between more Saul and Jon Stewart, there was a gap of just like people directly reading from a newspaper and responding. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know that that's a great thing. I don't think it's a great thing either. And, you know, and oddly, you know, Joe Rogan uses that same dismissal. But let's go back to the sort of why you did this. Yeah. I mean, I know you're a fan, but I mean, you've got me quoted in there about, and I think this is more so whether people know it or not.

And I think a lot of this stuff that you're doing, this is an intellectual approach to this thing. I mean, you're sourcing it with a lot of philosophers, cultural critics, you know, poets. I mean, you know, you sort of did your homework to find context for yourself so you could write this ambitious book. Like, I don't know really. It's not light reading. I mean, there's jokes in it. No, no, but I mean, I'm not dismissing the book. Oh, yeah, yeah. You set out to do something.

Yes, I wanted to do an ambitious book. I wanted to say, the part of it was, not only do I want to write an ambitious book, because if I'm going to write a book, I might as well be ambitious, but also I wanted to suggest that comedy could have an ambitious book about it. Right.

I felt like the level. Stand up. Yeah. Stand up primarily. Yeah. With a little sketch. Little sketch. You know, cabled late night in terms of Jon Stewart.

But really stuff that comes out of stand up and sketch. Yeah. That would include those. Yeah. Live comedy. Yeah. The live comedy arts. But not comedy in general.

You do source thinkers who deal with the broad idea of what humor is. Yes, yes. And I try to – you know, it all relates. But I do think – often I focus on stand-up because stand-up is sort of the purest of a lot of the sort of questions are at its most distilled with stand-up because it is just a person and an audience. And in so much as the book is about both the comedians and audiences and how audiences interact, I felt useful to sort of focus on that. Right. So when you're deciding to do this, I mean, you know, what shifted in you? Like, I imagine when you first started writing about comedy and what you thought comedy was, that that kind of changed over time. Yes.

Right? And it seems like that at the point where you needed to, you know, kind of ground your emotional reaction to comedy the most desperately was after your brother passed away. Yeah. Which was tragic and happened quickly. Yeah. And, you know, then all of a sudden, you know, you need it. Hmm. Right?

Yeah. And then that must have changed your entire outlook on how much work you had done. What year was that? That was, it was, depending on what it was, so 2019. Sorry, buddy. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's a terrible thing.

But, you know, I imagine that deepened your need to have an understanding. Because when you started this or when you had the idea of writing about comedy, you were just sort of like, I love comedy. Yeah. Right. Yeah, and I want to convey that love and I want to show people just the craft of how comedians work. And isn't that interesting? We haven't really seen that in the same way or as deeply and appreciating comedians as artists just because I like doing – I found it interesting. And as a journalist, I felt like it's useful to convey what I find interesting to people. But I do think, you know, that experience, you know, traumatic experiences like that let you look back at your life and how you experience a variety of things.

And, you know, so my brother passed away and it was unexpected and hard and I just was not getting over it. And I went to a comedy show on purpose. It's not that long ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and then COVID happened right afterwards, right? So then that's it. And now there's this sort of death all around you. You know, that's why the Maria Bamford set

that I write about in the book that I can't talk about without crying, it's- About her mom. about her mom. About her mom. The James Corden. The James Corden thing. Yeah. It's like the ability for comedians to give people space when the world is moving so quickly

around them. And that set where she talks about her mom passing away just so gracefully. And it's in a context you would never expect a set like that. Yeah. And so you're surprised. You're just like, oh, cool. Maria's doing Corden. Like, I'll watch expect a set like that. Yeah. And so you're surprised. You're just like, oh, cool. Maria's doing Corden. Like, I'll watch that.

I like Maria a lot. And then she just sort of, she says the line, my mother loved life. And that's the only way she says it. And I mean, it is. Choke you up. Yeah. And it's hard. You know, I write about 9-11 in the book.

And 9-11 was this one moment. And then we sort of have to process this thing. But COVID was happening as an ongoing thing, as ongoing while I was writing the book. And it's hard to stop and reflect on a thing while people are continuing to die. And so to give people those five minutes, and I think it allowed me to sort of work in the having that moment happen having because I first thought of doing a book before

COVID but after my brother died but it allows you to sort of look in your entire life you thought about doing before your brother passed away no

all after all was after yeah I essentially did a long article about Adam Sandler I asked my book agent if and would want a book about only adam sandler and he basically said not really not not the type of book i would want to do they would like a biography or something but not like a sort of heady exercise

right and he's like what about a general book about comedy and i had um read the book ways of seeing you know by john berger sure and was like, can you do that for comedy? Can you sort of not just give people opinions about what is good and bad? That was about painting. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, how can you look at art differently? And so it's like, can I do that for comedy, which is sort of you look at it sort of abstractly.

And so then COVID happened. So then death was sort of all around. And so that was going to be a theme no matter what, because I was writing the book. And so then death was sort of all around. And so that was going to be a theme no matter what because I was writing the book. But I do think that happening made me revisit and the decision where I was in this sort of – I was stuck in this moment of grief and making an active decision to go see Reggie Watts, being like maybe this will make me feel better and and having such a high expectation for this show to be like my brother passed away and i need this comedian what do you got to save this and i and i didn't it just went and it really did and unbelievably even though and but that's also an improvisational music experience yeah so

it was just sort of i was in it and i felt connected to people and I didn't feel so isolated. And and part of what that experience that was COVID and looking back is that my by nature, I am I am prone to detachment. I'm prone to being in my head. Yeah. I think that is sort of a genetic predisposition. Yeah. I think that is sort of a genetic predisposition. My mom passed away one or seven. I think that also is is part of it, which is just sort of you. It's a protective thing, right? You get less invested with people and you're less likely to be have deeper mental and emotional problems. I mean, is your dad still around? Yeah. I mean, and I get that, and I get that from my own perspective that I know that comedy is a way of deflecting. Yeah. It's a way of kind of hijacking the emotional tone of a conversation.

It's a way of disarming. You know, we talked about that, and I think it's in the book. But in terms of if you're a person that is isolated, who else is going to make you laugh? You need it. Yeah. It's like the Martin Starr character in Freaks and Geeks, that moment that everybody loves so much,

where he's just sitting at home, you know, watching channeling on Merv Griffin or something and Judd having that experience as well and me having that experience as well. However you're isolated or weird or, you know, socially incapable that, you know, the connection that comedy makes with you is deep and everlasting and necessary. Yeah. So that's where you're coming from. Yeah, that's where I'm coming from.

And I think that is – it really underlined how powerful it could be when not taken for granted and not treated cynically when the comedian is being open, right? When – if the audience is being open and the comedian can be open, really remarkable things can happen. And I don't discredit other art forms ability to do that. I just understand comedy. Comedy works for my brain. I mean, that's that. It's also immediate. Yeah.

And you feel in your body, right? It's like you are as far back in your you might be in your head as much you want. But if you're laughing, your body moves and I laugh. I'm a very physical laugher. If you're laughing, your body moves. And I laugh. I'm a very physical laugher. And that is that it's such a like a visual metaphor of you being being pulled into the present.

Yeah. And also, yeah, it's uncontrollable if you if you surrender to it, which, you know, I'm just realizing this now, which is with grief as well. Yeah. Is that though it's not coming from the outside. Yeah. Really? You know, you're not looking for it. But in terms of sadness and physicalizing it and actually crying,

it's uncontrollable. Yeah. For a while anyways. Yes. Which is, that's interesting. Yeah, and you have to be in it. And I think part of it is, you know, I went back to work after my brother passed away fairly quickly, just because I wanted, you know, I wanted to do something. And I think that's a

normal thing to do. And, but you're doing these sort of two things of like, oh, I want to process this, but I also, you know, I just want to get on my light bulb and that push and pull. And I think there is something to just sort of giving into it. And I think- For a while, right? You know, but it's gonna – I mean, and you've learned this, is that, like, you're only going to get over it when you get over it. You don't ever really get over it. And the grief just sort of levels off somehow and integrates itself into your being. Yeah. And that's going to be there forever, that sense of loss.

For whatever it is, I'm not sure that we're not constantly all grieving almost everything as each day goes by. You know, there's loss. You just lost another day. you lose a parent at a young age it's it's hard for you not to sort of see the world as versions of loss and i think i and i think comedy at least from my understanding it helps with that there's there's something sort of there is something comedic about the fact that we die in a sort of like in a sort of dark way but i do think um the the sort of how would I put it? They're – that we're sort of all here and we're doing this thing that doesn't make any sense, which is existing. Yeah. And at any point, we sort of die. Yeah. It's too much, I think, for our brain to sort of process.

This is the denial of death. Yeah, yeah. So, and I think – Yeah. I think – and when I reread Denial of Death before I started writing the book, I sort of had a long phase of procrastinating where I just read books sort of maybe that I could pull from. Yeah. And so I reread that and there was the idea of legitimate foolishness. odd translation, but essentially like the need to not take things seriously, the need to be silly or to essentially like be pre-human, right? Where we're just sort of like laughing and playing and not afraid.

Right. And is the only way to be. And like, how can you find yourself to be not afraid considering all the bad things that are constantly happening all the time? Right. Well, okay. So that's the groundwork. And, you know, you do go through trying to make, you know, a pretty big context, you know, for, you know, what comedy is culturally, what it is physically, what it is, you know, as an audience member emotionally.

But, you know, going through this, you know, piece by piece with, you know, audience headings like audience, funny, timing, politics, truth, laughter, the line, context, community connection. And I think you're pretty thorough in all of them. before the internet and and maybe before before social media platforms you know and and even maybe a little before um comic produced shows yeah or or the mic culture or or even uh the first wave of alternative comedy not being you know san francisco uh in the 50s, but being, what would it be, the mid-90s, right? Yeah. That as a stand-up who started like I did, where your only option was the club. Yeah. And the open mic at the club, and then going through the club system.

And then alternative happened, and for me, it was different than what it became or what it was thought of. And I thought you captured it fairly well. Oh, good. But like one of the arguments me and Brendan, you know, used to have a lot about the second wave of alt-comedy is like, you know, what happened to many of those people is that it didn't necessarily have that profound an impact on comedy per se. And what I started to sort of think, and the reason I found the book, the last few chapters specifically about the two or maybe three generations at this point after me and how they're doing it.

You want to believe that the fundamentals don't change in terms of standard, but they do. Yeah. Because people don't look to live comedy as much as they used to. you know, don't look to live comedy as much as they used to. But nonetheless, I guess my point is, is that having been in this business for almost 40 years, everything that happens, despite what happened, you know, after the technological ability to generate, you know,

quickly and efficiently and cinematically, everything that happens in comedy, almost 98% of it, I've seen before. Sure. And it's guys like you, and I'm not saying, you can take that tone however you want. It's your job to contextualize it for whoever gives a shit about what you're saying. But the truth of the matter is,

is that, you know, there've been people taking risks, being vulnerable, losing their mind, pushing the line way beyond anything that you could even imagine, you know, for as long as I've been doing comedy. And certainly, you know, for probably before that. Yeah. It's just that it doesn't have any cultural significance until it does because of popularity or because of you.

Yeah. I think it's one of two things, which is either a lot of the examples are, like, I don't, I can't imagine anyone has invented anything Hannah Gadsby and Annette is that they did a special where there was large pockets of not laughing on purpose. And and I said, you know, they were not the first comedian who was not funny for half their set. The difference is this became an international phenomenon. And as a result, it must be reckoned with because that means there's something about this special and there's something about culture was ready for that. And then I can comment on culture because they cared about it. But when you break it down, Hannah Gadsby was an efficient working comedian who knows how to do comedy despite what anybody may, you know, whatever any thick-headed person. They'd already done a decade of stand-up. Whatever thick-headed person decided it wasn't comedy.

But it also spoke to the moment of patriarchy out of control and Me Too. That's the thing. Me Too is the reason it became a sensation. If you ask Hannah Gadsby, I have asked Hannah Gadsby, they weren't like, when they were a fairly popular Australian comedian doing this, they weren't like, well, this will be an international sensation that makes me a huge American comedian. And they worked through it like all comedians and also a philosophical predicament of I think comedy is going in the wrong direction in whatever way. And there has been generations of that since the – I'm sure – I don't – I've never read this, but I'm sure the comedians of the 1950s thought that the hacks of the 19, you know, then, not the

1940s to the 1930s, and then obviously the Shirley Berman's S, that's obviously a huge revolution where people are pushing back on certain orthodoxies. Point is, they are in a predicament, they did a thing. What makes it what this book is is, one, it is a notable,

they succeed in what they're trying to do. And it resonated. So then I could be like, why did what what is it resonating? And was it how does it reflect where the culture is, which is sort of me too is happening and where the culture is with comedy, which is a point they make, which is our access to laughter is at an all-time high. We have ability to find things that make us laugh very easily, which some comedians believe puts the comedians in a position to do something, the freedom to do something else and audiences that are happy to have that because they don't need the comedians to do that.

Now, that's not all comedians have to do that, obviously, but there is a freedom to do shows that still count and feel like stand-up, but have a lot more room for different types of storytelling approach. And right now there's a lot of people doing one-people shows, at least in New York. I don't know about here.

Yeah, but I mean, but that, you know, what Hannah Gatsby implies, you know, when something like that becomes culturally polarizing and then, you know, politically motivating, not unlike we talked about or you talked about and I talked about with you, you know, what how how 9-11 splintered the community, the comedy community in terms of tolerance versus not tolerance in terms of jingoism, in terms of, you know, potential racism and that stuff. You know, that was sort of a big moment. of a big moment. But I think Hannah had a big moment because that was able to galvanize at least some progressive momentum around

taking on the patriarchy and feminist ideas and modern feminism. And that was aligned with some stuff that was going on in television. But ultimately, what happens then is that the other side gets fortified as well. And now we have a situation, which I think you handled

very well, which is something I talk about on the show a lot about, you know, tribalization of comedy, that you were able to track in your book to the idea of community and that, you know, that comedy is, you know, a tool of community building and you cite bell hooks. But when you're citing bell hooks, it's usually a proactive community that we're building here. And now you have a tribalized comedy culture because mainstream show business has broken down and now people can make their own show businesses, which I think is the advent of technology. Anybody can make their own show businesses, which I think is the advent of technology. Anybody can make their own show business. But some people who deal in networks in terms of building their own networks and building their own worlds, like Rogan primarily, no longer need mainstream show business at all. So then you have that community who also believes that they can dictate what comedy is and what

it isn't. who also believes that they can dictate what comedy is and what it isn't. And I think that's a problem on both sides of polarizing comedy in terms of community, is that, you know, when Hannah Gaspi says, you know, comedy needs to change, I think that got more of a fuck you then from comics than anything she was saying about feminism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we all kind of agreed and saw her point, but it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're telling me that I can't.

Yeah, so, but to go back again in terms of repetition and why, you know, I think what you're doing is important to who it is important to. See, that's the biggest problem, really, is that you've spent this amazing amount of time, you know, creating this, you know, context of why and what, you know, comedy is, who, what, when and where of how it impacts culture. But ultimately, the audience for this book is going to be who? Well, that's the question.

I don't know yet. Right. The book has only been out. I mean, the hope was the audience. I wrote it for people who love comedy as much and follow it as much as I do. People that listen to this show, people listen to other comedy podcasts. The hope is, you know, I'm trying like I, you know, I did Burt's podcast, right? So maybe if I do some of those people who are who also fashion themselves comedy fans, but are siloed to a different part of the comedy world, we'll read this book and

disagree with some things and understand things a little bit more. I mean, the goal of this was just sort of to evolve the conversation. Now, is there going to be a large group of people on the right who read the book and sort of take it in kind to be like, you know what, I've changed my mind? No, but like maybe we'll just sort of loosen the nature of the conversation. So we're not having the same sort of, you know, as we said, there's cycles of this or of free speech is this and no, we can transgress it this way. And then it's been around for as Cliff's book captured.

It's like the late 1800s. Yeah. So and the hope is there's also then the people who don't consume a lot of comedy, but do know it as a cultural force and have been curious about how that happened. I was I was interviewed years ago. I think right at the that happened. I was interviewed years ago. I think right at the beginning of the pandemic, I was interviewed. I was on a podcast,

and we were talking about just comedians during the pandemic, and the cultural critic just goes, why are we talking to you? Not dismissive, but how did this happen? How did I care about what comedians were doing during a national tragedy? And this book kind of explains how that happened.

I assume when you're starting, when a national tragedy happened, the first thing wasn't like, well, what are comedians saying about that? And that is the thing that has evolved in my lifetime, which is like when things happen, when there are mass shootings or whatever, a lot of times people look at comedians. And if they don't say something, people are disappointed in comedians if they don't. Yeah. But what's shifting since then is like, you know, it was like after 9-11, which you talk

about in the book, like comedy is dead. But, you know, like for me, I've been doing a joke on stage about, you know, distance and which you talk about in the book. But I was the type of a comedian at a different time where I needed to address it immediately because it was so juiced up and there was no way it was going to work. Yeah. But you needed to,

you wanted to get a jump on that joke. So I'm telling a story about, you know, walking around with Louie, but I say I was hanging out with a previous version of Louie who was my friend. And, you know, he was about to do his first Letterman and the Oklahoma City bombing had just happened. And I was the kind of comic that was like, you know, you got to get on that. Yeah.

And I say in the act now, I say I was very busy on 9-12. You know, like I got to. Yeah, yeah. You know, like I got to, you know, so, and we did, and I think you got it in here. Some of those quotes, you know, from, from the guys that were, were in the clubs right after 9-11. But I was telling Louie, he's like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm like, what do you mean? You got to mention it. How are you not going to, how are you not going to bring it up in his five minute set?

On television. Yeah. And, and then he, the story goes that he went and talked to Robert Morton, the producer, you know, and Morton was like, how are you feeling? And Louie's like, well, I don't know what to do with this Oklahoma City thing. Mark Maron thinks I should mention it. And Morton says, yeah, that's why Mark Maron's not doing the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But the point that I'm trying to make here in terms of looking at comedy, it was not for information, though. It was for the ability to compartmentalize. The idea that comics, like right now, as a Jew and as a comic, people are like, what do you think of Israel? And it's like, it's a trick question. And on some level, all that it would

serve, whoever's asking me, well, what is your point of view on it? Because if I don't honor it, then I'm a fuck. Yeah. So, you know, that's part of the incentive. But I think that comics, this idea that comics are truth tellers, you know, is part of this free speech right wing frame. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

At this point in time. You know, because who the fuck are comics? And they're going to do some version of whatever they got off the internet or deconstruct, you know, that. I mean, the better ones are going to say this is all bullshit. Yeah. But I come from that. You know, I come from this idea and, you know, you give fairly short shrift to Hicks because he doesn't happen in the parameters of what we're exploring here. But this was a guy, you know, whatever line you think it is or whatever is required

of a comic, that would clear rooms on purpose. Yeah. And, you know, that was happening, you know, before anybody

in the alternative world was creating something not even as menacing to make that point. Yeah. And I guess what I'm coming back to is that,

and what everybody says, is it's subjective. Right? Sure, yeah. And that is the I'm coming back to is that – and what everybody says is it's subjective, right? Sure, yeah. And that is the bottom line because, you know, you give the proper amount of attention, which is many pages, to Maria Bamford, who by far is the best stand-up comic in decades. Yeah, in my lifetime. I say comedy is so subjective other than Richard Pryor and Maria Bamford are the greatest comedians of all time. Right. And that's how I orient it.

Which is like if that to me is the value system is those two comedians, then we can start thinking about what good and what we mean by good. Because comedy is too subjective. And what you laugh at is so built into you as a person. And there isn't a history like a lot of art forms have, of creating value systems of knowing how to appreciate things. I mean, this book is somewhat starting that conversation.

But yes, there was an earlier draft where I had a good amount about Maria, but not as much. And my colleague, Catherine Van Aredonk, who writes for Vulture, was like, I thought you might have, would have a little bit more Maria in it just because I know how much you appreciate her.

And then in a later draft, I think I added all the stuff in the last chapter, which really, you know what happened? She did the late night set after she said that. So then I was like, well, this is this gets at from the noise of culture to emotionally connect with grief in an honest way. You said that like that's something that happens often. I'm sorry for saying that. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, finally a comedian did what they were supposed to do. No one's going to do that.

But I think this, it also speaks to, you know, my shifting attitudes. And I was talking to Brendan about what I thought, you know, the edgy comedy really was. And I think that, you know, as we get older and as we live some life, you start to realize, you know, what is the nature of real risk? Now, you know, and the two sides are, is that you have the school of Hicks where it's what you say. Yeah. And then you get from there,

unfortunately, to what are you, too woke? Yeah, yeah. Right. You know, and I think you handle them very well too, the Legion of Skanks and, you know, what evolved out of that. Yeah. You know, this is not, these and, and, you know, what evolved out of that. You know,

this is not, these are not ideological guys. Yeah, yeah. These are, you know, just sort of like, we're just kind of nihilistic clowns. Yeah, yeah.

That are trying to get away with something and fuck some people's heads up. Yeah, yeah. You know, cause some shit. But I think it might, I don't know if you characterize it this way in the book.

It's, it's childish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, let's see if we can make the grownups mad. Yeah, yeah. It's just saying a thing that people take seriously and be like, not.

It's just like it truly is. And we've all done that with God. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But let's talk about this idea of edge is that when you deal with, if these are your poles that you're trying to, you know, create a narrative in between or, or, or a theory or, or a conversation is prior in, in, and Maria is that the, the essential force of both of them

is vulnerability. 100%. That is the thing. That is the thing that I, I, and, and understanding what vulnerability means. Like I talk about it in a lot of the chapters, but like mainly the, the chapter on truth, because we had this idea of a comedian truth teller is a narrative not necessarily pushed forward by comedians, but in terms of sort of media's understanding of what comedians they thought were doing. But that's also – that's truth telling through language. Yeah, yeah. That, you know, so you're trying to integrate the idea of vulnerability as a fundamental truth. Yes. Because the general understanding is it's what did he say?

Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to move. I mean, saying is, I think, the big part of it, which is I think I say multiple times, which is there's been too much focus on what comedians say instead of how they say it. Right. And I think and by how, I mean the entire context of the person saying it. And by how, I mean the entire context of the person saying it. And so I contrast Louie partly because Louie at the time was heralded as the most truthful comedian that's ever lived. There were just so many.

And some of it he helped foster, but some of it was just people deciding. But truthful in the way that he was saying what shouldn't be said. Yes. That's what the actually meant, yeah. About sex and child rearing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It shouldn't be said.

Yes. That's what the actually meant, yeah. About sex and child rearing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then – and I sort of break down that sort of way of thinking of it and focus on what I think is more truthful in a sort of deeper way, which is sort of comedians who are vulnerable. And I talk about Maria. I talk about Tig.

Once you went on stage with cancer, I talked about Margaret Cho. And the idea is often you hear a certain type of comedian be like, oh, that guy's fearless on stage, right? And usually it's a guy. And by fearless, they mean they're willing to, you know, make fun of anyone. They're willing to say any words. They have no fears while they're on stage. But that to me is not being fearless, especially because if you're doing it to an audience, who wants that? It's the opposite of that.

Once we become professionals and we can make it happen again and again, you're fearless. Yeah. Yeah. Period. Yeah. Period. Yeah. But, yeah, right. It's used to connote courage. Yes.

If there's no ramifications for saying certain things, then there's – it's not – that to me should mean there should be no fear involved. Well, that's right. And now we have these bubbles. So, fearlessness is like this idea that, like, I might get canceled. Like, no, you won't. You're not talking to anybody who's going to cancel you. And you're not famous, right?

You're famous in your world. It's hack, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, and it's a cheap way to raise the stakes of jokes that are probably underwritten, right? It's like, oh, there's not enough tension because you, the audience, like when I say the words I'm not supposed to say. So then I have to make it seem like we're doing something dangerous just so there's more energy to it. But let's get back to vulnerability. So, but what I think is actually dangerous is putting yourself out there when your body is physically at risk.

As I say, like both, you know, Tig thought she would lose work by telling people she was sick. Or there is a history of people not getting work because they are open about having mental health issues. That is, to then talk about it on stage in this town is risky, is a thing that a comedian could be fearful of. So to do it anyway because you sort of are compelled to as an artist and or you want to help people, to me, is a noble pursuit. It's taking the art form.

Right, absolutely, but not to diminish it. The industry was able to carry it then, though. It was not the art form. Right. Absolutely. But not to diminish it. The industry was able to carry it then, though. Yeah. It was not the same time. Yeah. I mean, when the issue was, well, we can't use it because we can't ensure she's got cancer or, you know, she's going to bring the audience down. You know, we now have a, we do have safe rooms because audiences have been built. Yeah.

Yeah. in terms of how he lived his life, which was out of control, and also his need to share it. So you're dealing with somebody who's dealing with these vulnerabilities of the experience of growing up in a brothel and then having a self-destructive streak that he's completely at odds with all the time because the most vulnerable things about Pryor outside of whatever he did in terms of bridging the race gap, for me, the risk of profound humiliation because of how you lived your life and what you did and then processing that on stage is the most human thing. And he could do death. He could do all that stuff because he grew up in a very electrified and lively childhood. Yeah. And also the thing that I mentioned Richard and Maria together is they also are both exceptionally talented. Right. They're not just like good joke writers, which they are. They can do voices.

They can do act out. Right. And that I think why Richard is number one. They can do voices. They can do act outs. And that, I think, why Richard is number one, and I can't imagine any conversation that is not that, is that he took an art form that was not even close to being ready for it. That's right. And just by the sheer will of his charisma and talent and willing to take risks, he modernized the art form. And so ahead of time that it took a very long

time for people to catch up to it and and and even the idea of there being safe audiences was is was long it'd be another 20 30 years before it happened now i like that there are safe audiences because i do think it benefits the art form for the audience to be receptive of people like i understand i do understand the benefit benefit of a somewhat more antagonistic relationship sometimes because it allows you to figure out how to translate the jokes to wider audiences. But

without the audience that is supportive, well, I'll say this. If you have a supportive audience, that means you should be taking risks in terms of vulnerability, in terms of my value systems aren't formed. That's right. If you have a supportive audience, the other way, which is we don't need you to take risks in terms of vulnerability, but we just want to hear you say the words.

That's the opposite of a supportive audience. That is a condensing audience. that I have where I get argumentative with ideas about comedy is that, you know, my generation, you know, came up with the job was to entertain strangers. I understand. And, you know, you should be able to do that. That what came out of the comedy boom was that, you know, people would go to the comedy club to watch comedy. Yes.

There was a time where Maria Bamford would have been on Carson. Mm-hmm. And she could have handled it. Because the only precedent for that is Jonathan Winters. Yeah. And he was just as mentally ill as Maria. And all the talent and everything else. But what I'm saying is what I've been thinking about Maria is that, you know, you put her

on stage in front of a general audience right now, you know, without any preconceptions, that there's going to be half of the people that are like, I don't get it. Yeah. Is she okay? And just even creating that character for that three seconds, I'm mad at them. Yeah, me too. Or I try not to be. I try to be like, can that audience who would respond that way, can they evolve?

And they have, right? I think you put Maria on stage at an even lesser, like, I think there's even more context for her now because there's so many comedians who are more broad who are influenced by her. I mean like just the fact of how many comedians talk about mental health on stage now compared to 20 years ago is significant. Like and not just in sort of alternative spaces broadly defined. All comedians – it's just a thing that people – They've always been doing that. comedians. It's just a thing that people They've always been doing that. I used to talk about how

the language of contemporary comedy for decades in the 60s and 70s was fundamentally self-reflective, fundamentally Jewish, and fundamentally driven by the idea of analysis. This is the weird thing. It's like you would

see people do, you know, my reaction to Nathaniel was furious. I was furious. And when I talked to him, I was furious. And I could tell. I write about it in the book. I was like, I didn't know that this conversation was only going to be about your interview with Gerard. But I knew it was going to be a little bit about it.

Well, but, you know, you frame it in, you know, the final, the beginning of the latest version of what you would call alternative comedy. Yeah. And that, you know, it has its place. But, you know, outside of Bo Burnham, who I think, you know, out of all of them, as a comedic visionary, well, he's the guy. You know, like, you know, that thing he did during the pandemic and also all his stuff is that this is a guy that takes emotional risk,

but also is insanely talented, like you said, and intellectually up for the challenge. But even with the intimacy that you claim and having that being some sort of indicator of a new generation, like I'm having a hard time seeing that. Yeah, I think you're looking for a sort of transparency that Gerard is not going to – that I think when you, I think it's completely fair. I think the type of vulnerability that you respond to

is not necessarily the type of intimacy that Gerard is after. Like, I think he's more interested to the sort of cinematic feeling of closeness as much as actually feeling like you know what this person's soul is. And when I write about him,

in the book, it is partly about the moving forward of specials filmed, is. And when I write about him in the book, it is partly about the moving forward of specials filmed as an art form. And essentially thinking about his Nathaniel as much as an

actor, trying to make you as much as a... Okay, I'll give him that. Fine, he's a good actor, but he sits in here pretending like he was shooting from the hip that night. He wasn't. And that's why I understand. I think we would agree that that is where you guys were up, which is he is doing – he's still – that press tour around Nathaniel, in my opinion, and I have not spoken to him, felt like a continued performance. The entire thing was a performance piece, which is like I am going to play the part of a person who's doing this sort of vulnerable work. I don't know why that is why he did it.

But I can see why, especially one-to-one, you'd be like, you're not actual – you're not – this is the same thing, which is you're not being vulnerable in so much as you're not scared to do any of this because he's so in control of whatever that instrument is. Yeah, and also he doesn't give a fuck. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, that's a – like, like, you know, I talked to Drew Michael and, you know, and OK, so if you're going to say it's about the structure of the special and taking that to the next level, which is always a challenge. And it's been tried in a lot of different ways. And, you know, I asked Bo to direct my last one. Yeah. Just because I thought, well, maybe you could do something interesting with me because, you know, I'm actually a fucking bleeding wound.

Yeah. Half the time. But, you know, he was polite, but he said he was going to deal with Netflix. But why would he want to? I was condescending to him. And also, I mean, the end times fun that Lynn did, I think, is when I wrote a piece about specials as a visual medium. That is one of the examples that I point to. Yeah.

Well, she knew. Yeah. She was like, this is what this guy does. I know that is one of the examples that I point to. Yeah. Well, she knew. Yeah. She was like, this is what this guy does. I know him well. I'm going to stay in him. Yeah. And she also, I remember, I think we talked about it a little bit. I asked you about how she shot it, and she had the intimacy of it.

But you didn't mention this, which was she shot you to seem paranoid. There were certain shots. She shot you through like windows. So you looked like a lunatic that was going, falling apart. No, she was hiding that from me. And so I,

and I always wondered if you, if she never told you she did that. Cause if you watch the special, she tracks you. Yeah. It's like, it's like you're being watched, not like you're being watched like an audience,

like you're being watched by the CIA. And it is so profound. So when I wrote that, knowing that you have not mentioned that, the cinematographer commented to that article being like, that's exactly what we were trying to do. So you've been, what's funny is you're part of a movement

that you have somewhat antagonism towards but not complete antagonism towards. No, but, no, all I want is credit. Yeah. Well, I gave it to you. Thank you. You're the intro paragraph of this example of things.

Okay, good. Thank you. Well, I guess, to be fair, I give Lynn the credit. She deserves it. Because, like, I know what I do. Yeah. And I can't pretend to do what I do. Yeah. So when people pretend to do what I can't pretend to do what I do. Yeah.

So when people pretend to do what I do or pretend to do it, period. Yeah. Like even with Drew Michael, like the device of the special that had laughter, whatever Gerard was trying to do with that first one, he fucked that guy is what he did. Yeah. He sold him a bill of goods and it was a faulty experiment. I do think, and I think Drew would agree, but it allowed Drew to then, when Drew does his next special and the thing after that, to be like, well, I'm the guy that did that, right? There is something about even a big swing and a miss in Hollywood that they think he was like, well, that's the guy that takes big swings. He can get into a room. Oh, yeah?

What's he doing now? Well, he's doing a new show. I haven't seen it yet, which sucks. But, you know, he's doing a new show that's only about sort of the hearing, having hearing loss. So now he's returning to the hook that he should have started with. But he has. It seems like he's doing it in a specific way that uses audio cues. Well, good.

Look, he's a creative guy. My problem with him was that, you know, he assumes the mantle of self-importance that, you know, I've seen other people do, and I've seen similar jokes. So that my big problem with him was, is that, you know, you, if you're going to pay homage, then, you know, don't do it exactly the same way. Yeah. Like, you know, he, he's of an, a type of comedian that there's only a handful. Yeah. And, you know, he's of a type of comedian that there's only a handful. And, you know, you've got to sort of own that legacy and not pretend like you invented it. I understand. I don't think he thinks it. I remember the interview.

How you – there was a fundamental disagreement of how much you thought he was specifically doing one specific thing and not owning it. And I do think partly Drew was commenting on that legacy as much as participating in that legacy. All right. But. Look, this is where I'm just a cranky old guy. Yeah, but I think the thing that we. You're the only guy that gives me credit for anything. I appreciate it.

I think, I mean, you're throughout this book for a lot of reasons. I'm the closer. Yeah. Yeah. You are the closer. I remember when he had that. Because I hadn't had that. That was very deep in the writing process.

And I just needed something to get to Maria and the sort of last paragraph, which I had. And then we had that interview and I realized, oh, that chapter starts with my interview with you. And you saying the thing about like when we look back at this time. Yeah. Well, we'll realize how lonely we all were. And then sort of we come back around. And so, yes, it's very important. But I think the

fundamental disagreement we have or the fundamental different perspective, and I think it's why I wrote this book, is you, because of your experience and because you have to do the job, believe the job of a comedian is to be an entertainer, which I think is a completely valid perspective. But I don't believe I'm an entertainer. It's not why I got into it. But you believe they should do the job of a comedian, which I don't always think is entertainment. That's fair.

But I don't have to care about the job of a comedian because I don't have to go up on Thursday night. Okay, yeah. So then I could just be detached from it and be... This is all about you

wanting to be a comedian. No. Okay, go ahead. As I write a book, I try to one time, it's just not for me. I like being funny. There's jokes in the book,

but it's just not... Honestly, I don't like the experience of – You made the right decision. Go ahead. I appreciate it. Thank you. Well, that's nice. But go ahead. But we'll see.

I mean we'll see how people respond to this. But what were you saying? Can you get back on it? I am free to not care about the job of the comedian, to just think about it as a sort of cultural force and comedians as ideas. And look, it's this book is not a detached history or some sort of thing. It is my perspective on a thing. And and it is I am manipulating time and I am choosing comedians that fit a sort of idea that I want to come across. There are another thousand comedians that I could have written about.

These are the comedians that best exhibited what I was trying to capture. A lot of the times they're famous comedians because famous comedians have cultural impact. But there are famous comedians I didn't include because I couldn't figure out how they fit through these sort of ideas of how I see it. But it is – but I'm free to do that because I don't have to be – I don't have to do the job. And I think that's useful. I think comedy benefits from having people whose job is not to do that but to sort of be a conduit. Yeah, it helped me. It contextualized a lot of stuff for me and it made me think differently about, you know, even, you know, Gerard, who I don't have anything against.

But, like, I'm – you know, it turns, who I don't have anything against. But like, I'm, you know, it turns out that I'm really sort of dug in. And I have principles around what I think it is. And, you know, ultimately, you know, I know what a joke guy is. You know, I know what a guy who's doing something on purpose for effect is. I know, you know, what real vulnerability is. And for me, you know, whether I like a person or not, if I can see who they are, then that's the connection I'm looking for usually. Even if it's a persona. I can feel that connection that's human to me. And I'm sort of like that.

But usually I like pretty goofy comics when I want to watch comedy. I will also add that you have to be dug in. I think to do the job of an artist, to be a stand-up comedian, you can't be like, what do I think is comedy right now? You have to know. But there are people in this book that do that.

What? That is their drive. That what? What do I think comedy is right now? What kind of tricks do I want? What kind of games do I want to play? You know, like as much as I love Kate Berlant and I watch her and I think she's very good.

Yeah. But sometimes it seems like an exercise in moving the needle, which is fine. Yeah. But, you know, is it a good night out for me? But I'm not that generation. Yeah, yeah. But I think she's very bright and she's very smart. But I crave knowing.

Have you seen her new show, The Kate Show? Oh, yeah, it's great. And I like that. It's a theater experience. And I think she's great. But I also. Have you seen her new show, The Cage Show? Oh, yeah, it's great. And I like that. It's a theater experience. And I think she's great. But I also know she's a very heady person. Yeah. And I know that, you know, and I'm enough of an art person to know when, you know, there are calculated things that are done to make a point or to elevate absurdism for its own importance.

And I get all that. And I understand it and I can appreciate it. But I think that, you know, with me and stand-up, you know, what I want is I want, you know, just raw humanity to either come through to me or be on display. I also think – I compare it to – as you say, the sort of book has – goes on these tangents. But I compare it to post-structuralist architecture, right? I compare it to people who are motivated deeply formally, right? That's right. And they want to push back on it, right?

I don't think Gerard is being like every comedian should be exactly like what I'm doing. I don't know. It would be weird. But I think he's just trying to expand the palette of what counts as a special. And I do think by, and not unlike Nanette,

but by being radically unfinished, this is a, maybe this is a generous reading, but by being radically unfinished, it does push back on how a lot of specials feel radically regimented. On the expectation.

Yeah. Yeah, because, yeah, and we all try, we all kind of deal with that. Like, you know, we did the special End Times Fun in a black box theater by default. Yeah. And I have a problem with those big theaters. But, you know, the interesting thing

about all those theaters that you always see on comedy specials, I mean, I think the biggest jump was like, don't show the audience. Because that was an old school thing just to be able to cut. So that became my big thing. But ultimately, those old time theaters that the comics do them in are so established that they become these passive characters. Yeah, yeah.

So it actually showcases the comic better than any other way. Because if you're going to make a character out of the space, right, then that's a distraction. But everybody's used to those dumb old big theaters. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you're just watching the comic. And then, you know, but to your credit, I mean, I think that seeing what, you know, Bo did and what Lynn did and what, you know, people started to do, I think was right. And we all wanted that to happen.

But sometimes they're not as effective as just a comic in the theater. And that's OK. I mean, like, ultimately, like, it's just neat. All I care about. Not all I care about. I shouldn't say it that way. But, like, ultimately, I just want there to push back the idea that there's one way of doing it. Like, we just have to expand the definition of what specials are and what stand-up can be.

doing it like that we just have to expand the definition of what specials are and what stand up could be and and not because i i particularly want it just that it is i don't want the opposite happening of a sort of shrinking and shrinking and and i and i think you agree which is sort of the people who are most strident of only one way of doing it and it's saying these bad words whatever are is the most extreme example of you know like there's the the type of comedians like comedians only job is to transgress and we we're out there to do this like that's not the only job of a comedian it could be yeah but those transgressions that those comics talk about aren't even transgress exactly and that's the thing that's even sillier i mean the real transgressions are what you're talking yeah is is actually and i understand now that you

know if you're going to you contextualize it as, then then then it has to it has to transgress. It has to evolve and risks have to be taken. Yeah. You know, transgressions just by being a bully and and and and sort of making lives worse for people whose lives are already pretty bad. But building the momentum in the community to where they're the last say on what comedy is, is an army of fucking faux enlightened meatheads who know how to do false equivalencies and have Socratic arguments because they're fueled up with talking points who call everybody but their guys hacks when they don't even know the real, they don't realize that the irony of that, that's what we're up against. Yeah.

Because those are the ones that are saying this is how comedy is. And it's problematic because those guys, that movement absorbs a lot of people because, you know, in the guise of free speech, you know, they align themselves. They don't I don't think because of their selfishness and their egos and some of them, their nihilistic intent, don't realize how easily appropriated they are by the fascist momentum that is real. So when you're pushing back on their context of what comedy is and isn't and the army of fucking morons who claim to be comedy fans, but that aren't. Yeah. It's it.

That's what's going to diminish it. Yeah. And that's what's going to diminish democracy. I, you know, not coincidentally, not even coincidentally. It's just the nature. The limiting of the allowable thought. Right. I mean, like, look, that's right.

I do not say in the book they are not that that doesn't count. And limiting is as easy as like like what's this fucking idiot doing? Yeah, in an aggressive way and making it uncomfortable to do it and making it not worth the squeeze of being in those spaces and these sort of carve out spaces for just them. And those spaces get larger and larger. And then the spaces become the size of Madison Square Garden easily, right? Square Garden easily. Right. And then because of the nature of how the industry works, you have comedians on the margins being like, well, I could if I go in this direction, that definitely seems like I can have a career. And and what you have to do is have a profound denial of how your jokes might be received differently than you intend them. Right. But also, I think what happens now

is that before what comics were up against in terms of taking chances was just the mainstream. Yeah. And now what we're up against is a highly effective propaganda machine of a certain ideology that is informing comedy. Yeah. And they don't know it because they're fighting this fight that's not even a real fight. Yeah. know it because they're fighting this fight that's not even a real fight yeah uh and and so that and i don't know that that's mainstream but that is a force within culture that that because mainstream is not what it used to be you know because mainstream show business has become you know

hobbled yeah yeah yeah and i also think it's it is outside of their control in so much as that you know as i explained in the book that algorithms are pushing people from them to things that are further away from them all the time and then and then reassociating them. Right. It's like those guys might make fun of Ben Shapiro or whatever or make fun of not Nick Fuentes. Yeah, but that's going to be the next reel you see when you flip because you look at it. And look, it happened. Researching the book, that happens. If you watch Joe Rogan, they will then associate you with this. And if you watch that, they will do.

And the next thing you know, you're one of them. You're one of them. And I've seen it. I know what it feels like to be radicalized. Well, surprise, I'm a cat guy. Yeah. Look, it happened to me. The example I use is that I had almost no interest in watches before the pandemic.

Through a series of YouTube algorithms, it is now my main interest outside of comedy. This is the thing that had no. And so that could happen to right. Your radicalized watch guy. Yeah. Now, thankfully, I'm not. If I had a lot more money, I'd be one of those guys talking about dealing and selling. Like, algorithms are very powerful things that are building content around what – not what you're interested in, but what will make you keep on watching, right? And they know that by this one element of all of those comedians has the most juice, and we're just going to keep on pushing further and further at Jews and radicalizing you bit by bit without

your knowledge that that's happening. And so you're being presented someone that you don't even know they're radical. And then, and but in terms of their sort of opinions about Jews or whatever, but next thing you know well, this guy's pretty funny too. And why it is

even more of a problem is those people, the really radical, the people who are truly anti-Semitic, racist, and that's their mission. They are doing this on purpose. They know that they can easily fool the algorithm to trap especially young men. And as a result, I don't have an answer to that. And as a result, I don't have an answer to that. There's ultimately – there comes a situation where comedians are put in a situation where people can misinterpret their work or put them in a context they don't want to be in. And they either have the option of denial or pushing away some of their fans. And that's – and I don't know if I met a comedian who's really willing to be like – to push away fans who are interpreting them incorrectly.

Right. Well, except for Jeselnik. Yeah. Well, but – He can't get them out of the incorrectly. Right. Well, except for Jeselnik. Yeah. Well, but— He can't get them out of the room. Yes. But he knows. He can push back, but now the pushback is part of it.

Right. Yeah. I think Jeselnik is the comedian who tries the hardest, but even he says it in a funny way. Yeah. So then they could be like, that's what he's being ironic about. Well, yeah. Right. But, you know, this—like, but to me, this was the most sort of horrific observation along these lines in terms of what we're talking about.

Which is from the book, it is through play and jokes that the perversion starts happening. As I've said, jokes and memes influence people's expectations of and their interactions with other comedy. It is here that conservative adjacent comedy becomes a tool of the right. Andrew Anglin, the founder of the neo-Nazi website, The Daily Stormer, is upfront about the fact that he uses humor as a Trojan horse for his bigotry. Anglin understands that most people are uncomfortable with vitriolic, raging, non-ironic hatred. So his goal is for the unindoctrinated not to be able to tell if we are joking or not. And that's a quote from him. He continues, quote, there should be a conscious agenda to dehumanize the enemy to the point where people are ready to laugh at their deaths.

So it isn't clear that we are doing this as that would be a turnoff to most normal people. We rely on LLs. And this is an on-purpose declaration of what I've been talking about for a long time. Yeah. The radicalizing of the people that are watching comedy. Yeah. But the comics are guilty in that they've been duped as well, either through ego or nihilism or dumbness. But, you know, you talk about this stuff and then because of the bubble world, they're just like, that guy doesn't get it.

He's a hack. He's a cuck, whatever the fuck. Yeah, yeah. So this becomes really about you establishing the idea and what you talk about with the generations after me, you know, including, you know, Gerard and Drew, who, you know, who I accept. Great. Yeah. I can't wait to tell Drew that I, I don't know what his experience with me was in terms of. I think he, he, he didn't have the best time. Maybe I'll. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, what it felt like to listen to, I think was that, that he can tell that you were dismissive of some of all the things that we talked about. I think, was that he can tell that you were

dismissive of some of, all the things that we talked about. I think he was aware of that. Right. But I still don't think I was wrong. But you don't have to get involved. I mean, look, and part of it might have been, you know,

again, my own sensitivity to what I've done in my career that for whatever reason, either insecurity or reality, I don't get appreciated for necessarily or enough because I'm an old man. Yeah, I think there is the feeling. And I think you are more successful than that. There's a lot of times where right now, because of social media and stuff, there are comedians who are extremely famous for doing versions of other comedians who are not that famous.

Right. So I can always been the way. Yeah. Without social media. Yeah. But now how famous they are and how less famous the other ones are. Well, there's always been – there's always a few guys behind every famous guy going like, I was doing that. That was my bit even.

But I understand. But also, so you see Drew playing in your space and it's like – but you get a lot of credit. You should be comfortable. Yeah. Well, thank you. That's all I was looking for. You're in this book a lot. I love it. More than Drew. Oh, good. Well, thank you. No, but I'm a thinky guy

and I'm not hitched to just comedy. Yeah. But from what we're talking about, these generations two or three after me is what you're trying to do the art and to encourage it. Because like one of the things I noticed, and this is a problem with the mind in the world we live in, is like, you know, who's going to read this? Who's going to see this? It's just another piece of content. You know, does it matter that we look at it as an art or not?

But, you know, that your focus on, you know, how social matter that we look at it as an art or not, but you know, that your focus on, you know, how social media works, how younger comedians are dealing with it, what younger comics are doing live in relation to social media and also queer comedy in general, uh, as being cutting edge right now is something I'm not going to see anywhere or even contextualize. Cause I don't know the community anymore. Right. So, but, but the intent is because the playing field isn't level, you know, back in the day you had the one or two oddballs. You had a couple of characters and you had the mainstream comics. But everybody was sort of around or at least representatives of them were around. But that doesn't exist anymore because we're in different worlds.

anymore because we're in different worlds. So in some very real sense, the world of comedy as an evolving art form that takes chances, that is interesting and challenging is under threat. Yeah. Yeah. And that art form that does those things is the art form that I love and is the art form that I want to make sure more people love. They love the one that is open. And seek it out. And seek it out. And because I do think it demands, in my perspective, an audience that wants that,

who wants not one. We're expanding an audience's expectations, allows for comedians to have more boundaries to explore or wider boundaries to explore different things and to be open and and that openness is how you get the sort of connection that i write about at the end of the book in in my perspective which is just and that openness is not just to one definition of vulnerability but being vulnerable there's a vulnerability to just taking artistic chances and to to allow for that is to understand that comedy is an art form, period.

And as an art form, that means it can have artistic – like artistic – taking artistic chances. And if you have all of that, then everyone in my hope and perspective will get more out of it. And in my personal experience, there's something profound that can be found there. Right. And we live in a culture where, you know, the key motivators are effective monetization and putting asses in seats. Now, that's always been part of show business. The idea of monetization, generating content and whatever, that's a a little different now obviously much different but but the truth of the matter is is that there there is a language to to what we know is show business or cynically content providing That is competitive and that winning means mass appeal. Yeah.

Or – and that is contrary and always has been to true art. Yeah. In a way. But you have to fight for it or you just – or the alternative is then it just doesn't exist, right? Or it just gets – just gets a continued fight and and i think that the the last chapter or so you know outside of of of reflecting on your own sort of emotional connection to to comedy is that with the advent of certain technologies and and methods it is easier and encouraging to get that shit out there. There's a lot of garbage, but you don't have to defeat yourself entirely. You can wait until you don't get the number of

views that you consider winning. Yeah. I mean, and it's also like a fight to get people together and doing it right. Like I do think it's a fight against the internet. And maybe this makes me, you know, when the person who thinks I'm old thinks the book is wrong will be like, you're dismissive of like the internet's ability to have people connect to each other comedically. Yeah, but that's a lie. I mean, and I think that, right,

the idea of live performance and the idea of community in a live venue is important. I mean, you know, once we could stop doing Zoom, we did. I won't do it. Yeah, and I think the reason you mentioned talking about sketch and stand-up in particular and definitely stand-up is at its core it's a live art form. And my favorite version of it, the version that I vowed for the most is when comedians are working on material, which is not, which is not how a lot of people are consuming. Well, in the past,

it's not how people were consuming work. Now there's sort of this thing where apparently, you know, Gerard acted like that. Well, that's why, look, that's why I loved it.

That's why this sort of unfinished thing is because there is. And I think there is a, when comedians find it, whatever it is in a joke, and the audience is there for it, and if they might know that they're there for it, that is a special moment of character. Yeah, and it might not ever happen again.

I mean, I know that with me. Yeah. That, you know, there are moments that happen, you know, I leave room on all the specials for that to happen, and it usually does, but there are things that only happen once or twice, and if someone's there to witness it, then did it it's not as satisfying as like cam why didn't i get that on tiktok yeah but but but that is the the sort of dragon i'm chasing because i

write on stage so we have where it comes from and why and what that moment is and it for it to be witnessed is important yeah and i also think like you know i've talked to people recently about people going back to movies again and there's this idea that like you know uh like you know people want to be together and you know covid's over and everything but also the world is fucking ending and that is what entertainment you know musicals were the biggest form of entertainment during the depression yeah so people are like i gotta i need. And when you're sitting with other people like enjoying the community

of distracting yourself from the horror, it's something. It's different than you sitting at home and experiencing that. Yeah. And then, you know,

the next click you make, you've been driven into a rabbit hole of garbage and that experience is personal and you don't, people don't, do not have

the management ability of their own minds. Yeah, it's the difference between passive and active and enjoyment. And even when you're sitting in a show, like I used to joke about it, but it's not like you're paying full attention all the time. Sometimes you're like, oh, what am I doing tomorrow? But at least you're with other people. But you can have your own experience in your mind even then. But, but I think it was, you know, it's a, it's a, an important undertaking to, to sort of, and I'm, I was the last guy to

get on board in calling myself an artist. I'm wary of doing it now, but I do like that, you know, you, you sort of, because standup always seemed to be a, of, for me, a calling or a job. But, yeah, but to sort of give it some structure and context and root it in history and in your own experience, you know, as a means to elevate it and understand it, I think it was great. Oh, great. Oh. It's like a very – the entire conversation was built into your one sentence review of the entire book. It was the whole thing was a review of the book. I don't have any problem with the book.

I think it's, you know, the struggle for you must have been to find an effective theme. But after a certain point, you know, to to sort of create a structure was enough. Right. Yeah. I think ultimately I think there are certain artists who just have an instinct of what the thing is. And I think for a lot of people, they just have to do so much work and be so deep in it that themselves, they can't help but have themselves come through. I didn't set out to write the book and have certain themes about culture that you said are to be have there be death run through it. And I think a lot of people don't read the book and even really pick up on the fact that it's sort of death is sort of running through it or sort of the,

and so much as that the book is about processing life and then, and as a result, that means death. But it, it couldn't help

but be my book and it sort of has my sense of humor and my neuroses and my pain in it and, and it was a note that I got very late in the process, which was sort of like, I write

this, it's a fairly heady book, the first 10 chapters. And a person who read it says, by the end, the audience wants to know who you are. Who's the person that did this? This is a thing. It's a weird thing to write this book this way and to be quoting these philosophers and to having such deep analysis on things that maybe had not gotten it. So that's why, you know, at the end, I'm like, OK, I'll let you in a little bit. But this is why a person like this would write this book and saying, like, ultimately, only I could write

this book and you'll have your opinions, but or your view. It's about how to see it. It is about how how allowing your brain to not think differently, but not not not to have different thoughts, but to think differently about it. And I have I am proof positive of the fact that if you do that, there's a lot to get out of this. And I and I didn't know if comedians would feel the same way. I didn't know if comedians were like, don't tell us. Don't tell people this. We want the audience to be like that. But comedians have been very generous.

Comedians have been very generous, and I think it's helped them come to terms with a lot of things that they were doing instinctually. Right, right, right. Or that they saw but didn't have the time to sort of research. Or even the middle, like I think, and this is the same thing I experienced with my podcast, which is that it's nice to feel seen, right? You're doing this thing and you don't know if anyone takes you seriously so I think there's something I hope

beautiful in just taking people seriously even the people that whose job it is to like not be serious you know air quotes of like

there are to be silly it's like there's something serious about that well I think people know that you know sad clown things

yeah yeah yeah well it's but yeah I mean that. It's sad clown things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah. But it's not just – the seriousness could be not just in their sadness but in their ambition or their vision. And what they do with the silliness and how they execute it and whether it's a reflection on silliness. Yes, yes. All of it. Yeah. Good job, buddy.

Nice talking to you. Nice talking to you. All of it. Yeah. Good job, buddy. Nice talking to you. Nice talking to you. There you go.

That was good. Did we all learn? I feel like I learned. The comedy book is available now wherever you get books. I enjoyed that conversation. Smart guy. Hang out for a minute. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. Hang out for a minute. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. So every month, Full Marin listeners get a bonus episode with exclusive outtakes from

recent WTF episodes. We've got the latest producer cut episode up now, including an additional 11 minutes from my talk with Doug Stanhope. My dad was a doctor, but he's got dementia, so he's no help. Oh, yeah. How's that working out? As much as I'm with you on the no kids, when someone my age still has parents that are alive, you're like, oh, fuck. It's like having kids. It's sad.

My aunt and my mother's sister just passed away. They're both in their 80s. But he's losing it. I mean, he's still relatively old memories. He knows who I am and all that stuff. But nothing's sticking that long. Do you feel like a responsibility to take care of him? Well, you know, his wife is still hanging in there.

The way I see it is I basically said, look, I got money, so when you need to put him somewhere, just tell me, whether it's a box or a place. Yeah. And we'll take care of it. Yeah, can I buy my way out of this? Exactly. I worked really hard to be a man can i buy my way out of this exactly i worked i worked really

hard to be a man who can buy his way out yeah yeah because he's uh she's like why doesn't he come stay with you for a couple weeks i'm like that's not happening in any there's no way that's happening to subscribe to the full marin go to the episode description in whatever podcast app you're using and click on the link or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF plus. Here's another thing I did not do in New York City this time. Buy an old guitar. Man, I got to stop myself from that shit. I was over at Howie's over at Rivington over there on 4th Street

playing some old Gretsch from the 50s. I'm not even a Gretsch guy, but, you know, it was close. He had a Telecaster Custom. It was close. Yeah, but I didn't. I didn't. I did not need it, and I realized that. But here's some old guitar from another time. Thank you. Thank you. ¶¶ Boomer lives.

Monkey and La Fonda. Cat Ames is everywhere. Yeah.