WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1493 - Kate Simon

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

Kate Simon’s love of photography started with a Polaroid camera and her talents put her right in the middle of the art and music scenes in London and New York City in the 1970s and ’80s. Kate and Marc talk about her notable subjects like Iggy Pop, Patti Smith, Andy Warhol, William S. Burroughs, The Clash, David Bowie and Led Zeppelin. But Kate explains why, out of all the artists she encountered, Bob Marley was the most unforgettable, which she documents in her book Rebel Music. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's going on how's it going the weekend happened i've been seeing a lot of movies and i you and there's definitely movies out. Tonight, I'm going to go see Godzilla because Kit is a true Godzilla head.

On Saturday night, we went to see Dream Scenario with Nicolas Cage, and I thought it was great. It's so rare that satire nails it. And a lot of times I don't even know if some movies are satire. I really have to think about it. But there's a lot more satires than you would think. But this one is very consciously a satire. And there's an edge that satire rides that I find very satisfying and a little disturbing when they're good. And this was a good one. I'll talk about it. How would that, I will talk about it momentarily,

but let's do the business of the show. Today, I talked to Kate Simon. Now, Kate Simon is like, I met her on Instagram, I think, but she's like a real deal photographer. And she's shot, she's been in New York a long time, back in the day shit, man. And she was in England at the beginning of her career. She shot people like Iggy Pop, Patti Smith, Andy Warhol, Madonna, a lot of William Burroughs, Robert Mapplethorpe, a lot of Ed Ruscha, Richard Hell, The Clash. She did the cover of the first Clash record. I didn't even know that before I talked to her. Her work is in the permanent collections of the Museum of Modern Art, the National Portrait Gallery, the Met, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

In 2004, she published a limited edition of her Bob Marley photographs. Now, the book is finally getting a wide release in bookstores. It's called Rebel Music, Bob Marley and Roots Reggae. And it's kind of an amazing book, like a beautiful book. It's weird that sometimes I forget about Bob Marley. And there's no reason to ever forget about Bob Marley. But there was such a huge, like, I can't remember what year it would be. Maybe I was in high school or just after that when reggae took over the world.

And Bob Marley was sort of everywhere, almost godlike. And those four records or so, the first four, are great. And I listened to the hell out of them at some point. But then reggae became a lifestyle, and then it kind of melded into hippie lifestyle, and then it kind of infused itself into everything. And it seems to have gotten away from me, the reggae. But, you know, looking at this book, it's pretty stunning.

And, you know, after Scratch Perry died, it was all back on the radar. And I imagine some people live the reggae life, but I have not. So just seeing those colors, you know, the green and the orange and the yellow and seeing all these pictures of Bob, you kind of realize what an original artist he was and what that type of music represented at the time it came around. It was sort of the beginning of world music in a lot of ways for a lot of people. And I just, to kind of re-engage with it was pretty exciting, but also to talk about the other photographs. All right, one second. I'll talk about that more in a minute. Brian Jones, you know my potter, he's still got some cat mugs for sale, and these are nice ones,

man. If you thought you missed your chance, you can still get them. I know they're pricey, but they're special. These are handmade mugs you get if you're a guest on WTF. That's what they were originally for. There are two versions available for the holidays, both based on the original art we used in the early days of WTF, the first mugs. You can go to wtfmugs.co to get your mug today. Good gift. All right, so here's some dates. Now, there's a lot more dates that I'm going to announce now. These are just, you know, coming up. There are more dates at WTFpod.com slash tour. But currently, soon, I'm in Los Angeles. I'm at Dynasty Typewriter, December 13th and 28th, The Elysian on December 6th, 15th and 22nd, and Largo on December 12th and January 9th. And I'm in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows.

San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. And the day after that, on February 4th, I'm hosting a screening of McCabe and Mrs. Miller at the Roxy Theater. You can go to their website to get details on that. I believe it might be roxy.com. Portland, Maine at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts, that's outside of Boston, at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th.

Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. And Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets. I don't sleep enough. I do not sleep enough. Oh my God. I think I'm sleeping like five to six hours a night. Is that normal? Is it age? Is it because I'm too hooked on nicotine and my body starts twitching in my sleep and needs a fix? Is it, I just don't, and I don't feel tired right now, but I don't feel great. Oh, anyway, yeah. Dream scenario with Nicolas Cage is a tight bit of satire. Now there are many satires. Some of my

favorite movies are satires when I really think about it. Like, well, Network, one of the great film satires, Being There, another one. I think Three Kings is effectively a satire. Tropic Thunder, one of the great unsung amazing satire movies. And I'll talk about that one all day long because I don't hear a lot about it. I think it might have been misunderstood, but it's tight, man, and it's cutting. But this one, dream scenario, look, Nick Cage in Rumblefish and then moving through a lot of different Nick Cage kind of phases. But ultimately, he is singular. And these last few movies he's done being the unbearable weight of massive talent. Is that what it was called? Where he plays himself against himself.

weight of massive talent. Is that what it was called? Where he plays himself against himself and pig, which I was excited and amazed by. And now this one, and they're all very different roles, but they're all very specifically Nicholas Cage. But this one is a very kind of tight, smart, cutting satire about internet culture, about cancel culture, about the nature of viral images and the culture we live in around reaction. I think it's tremendous. And the thing I really like about it, without spoiling it, is that it rides this edge throughout the whole movie. Once you buy the conceit, which you can read, I don't think I'm spoiling anything by telling you, is that this guy, this kind of schlumpy college professor at a small college, starts sort of, for no reason that anyone can understand, showing up in thousands and thousands of people's dreams and not doing much.

And it kind of moves from there. But once you kind of buy that conceit, which why not do it? It unfolds in a very kind of smart way and it's provocative. And as somebody who's a public person, I left feeling kind of uncomfortable, which is certainly what you want from a satire. And it kind of succinctly dealt with the challenges of generational triggering, of cancel culture, of not having control over your image. If you're even a bit public facing, it's a good movie. And I'm not even paid to say that. And I can't seem to get Nicolas Cage on this show. But I found it great. Other satires that kind of move me, I would think that To Die For is kind where the satire doesn't go too far over the top that I kind of live for.

I think Three Kings wrote a line, and I think Network wrote a line, too, where you believe the conceit and you believe the world and it seems real, but there's just a slight tweak on it into the grotesque, into the dark, but into the funny in a way that is not a laugh funny, but it's sort of like something in your mind and heart realizes like, oh, this is, you know, this is reviewing something much deeper through this, through this artifice, through this, uh, conceit, uh, that has legs, man. And it's, and it's comedy, but you know, it can, uh, cut a little close. So I, I was, uh, pretty thrilled with it to be honest with you. So photography, Kate Simon, one of the great portrait artists of the 20th century. She's, I mean, a lot of the stuff she did in music and in New York, she's got some of the kind of seminal, is that the word?

Portraits of William Burroughs that she captured a time in music and art that is just amazing. And I, I'm very sensitive to photography. I wanted to be a photographer. I studied photography. One of the most impactful times I had in my life was taking a year-long survey class in the history of photography. And it was in the film studies. I did a kind of a film studies art history minor. But this professor, Carl Curenza, who was also a photographer in his own right, started the history of photography. The first semester, he started a cave painting and went up to the introduction of photography. And that was second semester. But learning, you know, the difference between how photography established itself, you know, documentary versus art photography, how it kind of confronted the idea of what do you do with an art form when everybody can do it fairly easily. And it just blew my mind in so many ways. It was,

it was kind of a, a full wiring of how I took in art and culture and everything. And I wanted to be a photographer and I did it in high school. I thought it was a genius. And for some reason, my high school at the time in 1980, maybe 79 at Highland high school in Albuquerque, New Mexico, because we had a real photographer in the head of the department. They built a new art

department and had this had this fucking state of the art darkroom. It was crazy and really unnecessary and too good. And I would just spend hours and hours there. I just remember at the time it must have been 1980. I have one of these photographs that I did. And of course, because I was hanging out at the university, I worked in a restaurant photographs that I did. And of course, because I was hanging out at the university, I worked in a restaurant across from the university and I was really dug into the art scene. And I thought I was like cutting edge. And I did this photograph where, you know, I had my mother hold the aperture open, where I set up a ladder in the field in front of our house in Albuquerque, New Mexico, which had just been kind of tilled. So

it was all clumpy and weird. I set up a ladder there and I attached a work light to my belt that was plugged in through an extension cord and, and in to the extension cord, I plugged in a TV and they were big then, but it was like a smaller one, maybe a 12 inch. And it was at night and I turned the TV on and the work light was on. And I had my mother hold the aperture open with the TV on and the light on. I walked around the ladder and then I walked up the ladder and put the TV at the top of the ladder. So it all had this glow and you could see several images of me, some kind of folding into the other. There were kind of like waves. It was trippy. And it won a big award. It won some sort of high school art award. It was in some sort of high school art journal. And it was, oh yeah, there were mannequins. See, back in the 80s, had to

have the mannequins. And they weren't even full mannequins they were torso mannequins that my mother had bought for something she was doing because she was also an artist and uh yeah and i guess i should have given her credit for holding the aperture open and i guess for buying the torso mannequins but uh that was punk rock man cutting edge and i think that was arguably the end of my photography career because it was just too much, too many chemicals, too many apertures, too much to think about. And you could always fuck up the negatives in that bag

and then putting them in that little vat and then mixing the chemicals. You didn't know if they were stuck to each other. I just, I couldn't cut it. So I got out, But not without sharing my genius with the people that came to that year-end art show at Highland High School and the people that read Creative Teens Magazine or the little fanzine. They saw what I did. They saw it.

So, okay. Kate Simon is here. The book, she's got a lot of photographs. She brought me a couple of her catalogs from her gallery shows, which are hard to find. And they're numbered and signed. Very exciting. But the book that she's here to talk about, which we do talk about, is Rebel Music. Bob Marley and Roots Reggae is available at marleybook.com or wherever you get books. And it's a beautiful book. There's a lot of history in there, a lot of photographs of Marley and everybody who was involved at that time in reggae music. And here's me talking to Kate Simon.

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Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business.

The hotel bed really sucked. I had to replace the bed. They replaced the bed? Yeah, because it's like, I got a bed back. Don't get restarted. Yeah, but you never know with hotels. Did they have a bed that worked? I mean, they were able to go like, oh, we'll give you the other bed? They did.

It doesn't make much of a difference. All I wanted, Mark, was to see you and to have enough sleep that I could like bring it meaning bring my my brains yeah then oh here's my list of comics and then I'll shut up okay

comics Richard Lewis love sure I just talked to him you know he's doing alright he's got Parkinson's now tell Richard Lewis please

yeah that Kate Simon sends her love yeah I love R.L. Yeah, he's great. I named him R.L. He's great.

Yeah, he's fucking. When did you photograph him? We took over the whole Bar Marmot. I photographed him in about 2008. Oh, okay. Yeah, and then I shot Jerry Stiller and Ann Mira. Oh, that's good. I love Jerry Stiller.

That is hilarious. She was a lot. This is kind of close. Is that where you want it? Yeah. It's kind of like a little. No, don't think a little, it's a little claustrophobic here. Don't think about it. Phyllis Diller.

Oh, when did you do her? About 2008. Oh, she was old, huh? I loved, she was like one of my favorite shoots of my life. Sure. Oh, really? Why? Because she's, ah!

Oh, no. No? Phyllis Diller, au contraire. Oh, yeah? She was profoundly intelligent. I'm sure. And profoundly poised. Yeah.

And really committed to her art. Yeah. And her assistant, this is the one thing that was unique. Yeah. It was her assistant came up to me and said to me, when I arrived in Brentwood at her match, she goes, you will not touch or kiss Miss Diller. Uh-huh. I'm a photographer.

I've been doing it for 50 years. Never. I'm not going to touch or kiss this broad.. Uh-huh. I'm a photographer. I've been doing it for 50 years. Never ended with it. I'm not going to touch or kiss this broad. Yeah. It's like there was a riot. Yeah, yeah. And then me and Phyllis Diller just got on great. Sure.

Okay. And also, okay, so RL and Jonathan Winters, they called up. Yeah. And his son said to me, well, it just depends or not on whether or not my father wants to take a dirt nap or not. Right, a die, huh? And I just thought, okay, later for that, I can't do that. You didn't go? Did you go? No, because it was so sort of off-putting, you know.

Yeah, I know a guy who, I think the guy that shot that picture I showed you of Rodney did it sitting with an older. Jonathan Wintour. And I was up there. I went up there when he was old. And it was more like, it wasn't so much a dirt nap thing, but it was depending on how his mood is. Oh, right. That's kind of what he implied.

Yeah. And then Jerry Lewis, I talked to him. He was difficult. Yeah. How was he for you? Well, Jerry,

uh, uh, Jerry Lewis, I photographed stills on the set of King of Comedy. Oh, wow. So he looked fantastic in these pictures. Cause he's wearing these like Brianni, is that correct? Like Italian suits. Oh, wow. So he looks fantastic in these pictures because he's wearing these, like,

Briani, is that correct? Like, Italian suits. Yeah, yeah. You know, I photographed De Niro and Marty Scorsese. Were you brought in by the production? How'd that work? I mean, I'm good friends with

Bob De Niro's cousin. He's one of my best friends. Oh, really? And actually, Bob De Niro's mother was fantastic. She was a painter named Virginia Admiral. His dad was a painter. Oh, really? And actually, Bob De Niro's mother was fantastic. She was a painter named Virginia Admiral. His dad was a painter too, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So I was tight with, I'm still tight with his cousin who was really tight with Bobby's mother. Okay. So I had this, those are all my comics that I photographed. Right. And I just wanted to like say something to you that I thought was kind of significant about my life as a music photographer. Right. When I was shooting music.

Yeah. But let's go back. Okay. So you brought me. Yeah. Thank you for the ACDC picture. Yeah. Pleasure.

And that was one of your first pictures? Yeah. I'd say yeah. And that was, you took that in England? Yeah. I lived in London from 1973 until 1978. So that's like peak ACDC. It was their first photo shoot.

Really? Yeah, really. They look so young and good. They're a great band. You know, I heard you talking about them on your podcast, which I listen to religiously. And I got a formally thank you, no fake, for getting me through the pandemic. Oh, yeah, you're welcome. I mean, I was really grateful that you were getting it done and showing up for me every Monday and Thursday. Yeah, yeah. Did you get COVID?

Absolutely not. Oh, good for you. Yeah. In New York, you didn't get it. No. Good. No, no. Scary times. I mean, yeah, but, you know, kind of if you're going to go through something that next level, as they say, as that, seeing it in New York was kind of something else. Yeah, no, I know.

Yeah, no one really understands, like, New Yorkers because people were going down. It was something else, visually speaking, yeah. Oh, did you go out and shoot? I did. And also, I went out being a Jew to see my doctor. Yeah. And? Every what?

Every week? And I was at his on Madison and 59th Street. And from his office, you could see the plaza and Central Park South. It was all very... Empty? and 59th Street. And from his office, you could see the plaza and Central Park South. Yeah. It was all very... Empty? It was so empty and it looked like some,

you know, Escape from New York movie. I bet. Yeah. So, look, I've talked to... Did you hear me talk to Ethan Russell?

No, but I love his photographs. Yeah. I talked to Ethan Russell. Love. And I talked to Neil Preston and you're... I love him. Yeah. Yeah. And you to Ethan Russell. Love. And I talked to Neil Preston. And you're. I love him. Yeah.

Yeah. And you're the next one. Oh, wow. You're the other part of the huge rock photographer history. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Ethan's wild because you watch, if you watch the Peter Jackson's What It Be.

Oh, wow. You know, the Beatles thing. Yes. He's around. Wow. Ethan's sort of around. It's funny you bring that up because I was thinking before I came here of Derek Taylor, because I adored him and I worked with him when he was working at Warner Brothers after working

with the Beatles. Yeah. And I was thinking to myself, you know, mention to Mark that when I was shooting rock photographs, which was pretty much dictated by the fact that I was in London and that was the only work that I could get, and it was in the 70s, it was a great time. Yeah. And I was just beginning my career. I was really keen to know about the people who were in the background, like Don Arden. Yeah. You know? He was the producer, right?

No, Don Arden. The manager. He was the producer right no don arden the manager he was the manager of oscar yeah his daughter's is yeah sharon osborne yeah i have a great photograph of him and i was just i saw it oh yeah you did in the books you sent me yeah great he's all young and pretty yeah yeah yeah but slightly askew like he is. Oh, you mean Ozzy? Yeah. Yeah, no, those shoots with Ozzy were F-U-N. Yeah. When I was shooting rock pictures, I was really interested in the people behind the scenes, like Jerry Wexler was a friend of mine because I was friends with his son, Paul.

I played him. Right? In respect, I played Wexler. That's right. Yeah. And when I was at Jerry's apartment and I saw the gold record for I Never Loved a Man the Way I Loved You, probably my favorite record of all time, I got faint in the head. Really?

It was really nice. How was Wexler as a guy? I did his son Paul's wedding pictures. I love Jerry Wexler. Yeah? Yeah. Smart guy, right? I mean, forget about it smart.

Yeah. Yeah. I can't believe it. And you played him, right? In the Respect movie. Yes. I can't believe it. And you played him, right? In the Respect movie. Yes, I know. I know. And I read the biography.

Like, I know about it. Yeah, the biography. And that David Ritz interview you did was masterful. Oh, thank you. Really well done. Yeah. But I just mean, like, Jerry and Peter Grant, who managed the Led Zeppelin, he was really unique. And then Chris Blackwell, good friend and great mentor of mine.

Yeah. He was with the Marley stuff, right? He was a producer or was he Chris Blackwell? Chris Blackwell. Yeah, he was definitely all about Bob and Jamaica. And he runs Golden Eye down there in Jamaica. So was he a record executive or a producer? Did he produce?

I think Chris produced. And he ran and founded Island Records. And then Albert Grossman, who was a really good friend of mine. Was he? Yeah. Like these guys. I loved him. Especially from, those are strong personalities.

Yes. Grant, Grossman, Jerry, I don't know Blackwell, but I can only assume. Chris is definitely, I mean, really, really, a really interesting fellow. Yeah. So when you're brought in to do shoots, these are your point guys usually, right? Aren't they the people you meet first? I think that, you know, when I was young and I was shooting all this rock stuff, I did have to meet all these gentlemen. And they were really always intriguing to me. I just remember that Derek Taylor was really so lovely because I came out to L.A. here.

And he was working at Warner Brothers. And he just said, Kate, whatever you do, I'll cover the expenses. And he was really like, I was like, I was a kid. It was so generous. It's so nice. So where did you grow up? Poughkeepsie. In Poughkeepsie, New York. I would like to articulate that Ed Wood, Billy Name, and Lee Miller, the photographer, are from Poughkeepsie and Kate Simon.

Yeah. Well, very good. You're in good company. Yeah, I know. Do you feel like Poughkeepsie gets a bad rap? I think it does with that pick your feet in Poughkeepsie shtick. Because of French Connection. Yeah, but, you know, Poughkeepsie is actually the home of Vassar College and really beautiful.

And it's on the Hudson River. Sure. And it's my home. So where do you start to, you know, feel like photography's got the pull for you? I mean, like, for me, I studied the history of photography at BU. Oh, nice. And it was an amazing course because the teacher, who was a photographer named Carl Curenza, I think he's an art photographer, but he started at Cave Paintings

for the first semester and went up to the introduction of photography. And the second semester was photography forward. So he established that whole idea of how we see, what is mediated, what isn't, what is a lens. I mean, it was kind of fascinating. Wow. But I was kind of intrigued with it, and I did it briefly. I could never get a handle on chemicals. The chemistry of it was overwhelming. And apertures bothered me. You needed somebody.

Like, I lived with this photographer, Joe Stevens, and I lived in London. And he really helped me a ton. And I remember you needed somebody like Joe to say, you can do that, Mark, because I was with flash guns. I was like, no, no, I don't think I can do that. And he said, to say you can do that Mark because I was with flash guns I was like no no I don't think I can do that and he said yes you can that's just sexist bullshit wow and and so he really he and he really helped me that way well I mean you start you know now it's it's a totally different game but you've got to sit you've got you know a hundred rolls of film with you yeah right yeah what were you shooting on like plus x uh well you know i still not to get boring yeah uh i can go i can become a complete nerd about film all right well what do you got

okay i love film yeah i love to shoot film i still shoot film i love to touch film yeah i bemoan the fact that printed matter is all digitally achieved now. I was on the plane. I bought all these magazines as is my typical behavior. And all the reproduction is so bad because they're digitally reproduced. What do you see? What is the tell? The images, the tell is the images look flat. The color saturation looks bad. Interesting. And, you know, it's not, it's not reprinted from color seps like the olden days. Yeah. Everything's digital. And I'm just saying that I, as a photographer and I plan to, you know, you know, not, you know, create an anthology of all my work and continue working. I have some shoots set up when I go back to New York. I just shoot film and I like to shoot transparency film still. I, you know,

shoot black and white and portrait. What's your black and white film? Is it plus X usually? No, it's tri-X. Tri-X. Oh, so really? Yeah. A little grain to it? Yeah. I like that you're saying the plus X with the tight grain at 125 ASA. I'm feeling that. Yeah. But you're tri-X person. I'm a tri-X freak. Yeah? Yeah. Well, I guess it's more versatile. I you're a Tri-X person. I'm a Tri-X freak. Yeah? Yeah. Well, I guess it's more versatile. I could give a lecture on Tri-X.

Why, because of available light? No, because all my pictures of Bob Marley that we're talking about, you know, at some point, were shot in, you know, 1977 to 1980 on Tri-X predominantly and they're still as good as they were in the 70s. It's a really stable film. Okay. And I just want to say

that there's one for Tri-X film. Okay. And a lot of color shots of Bob too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The book's beautiful. Oh, thank you. I mean, it's really something because it's not,

you know, I mean, I know this is what we're going to talk about, but outside of all of it. But this Rebel Music, Bob Marley and Roots Reggae photographs by Kate Simon. It's not just a photo book. I mean, it's an oral history of reggae at that time and the way it's kind of structured because I don't know a lot about it. So for me to go through it, I just realized I know nothing because I know the music. We all know the music. But you were there for the whole experience of the arc of that thing. It was incredible.

Well, it seems like it was really for whatever reason, obviously, because he was amazing, was this – it was like a pivotal point in your life as somebody who was engaging with art in general. Right. Right? Yeah, definitely. Because, like, I don't know when it all started, but it just felt like given all the photographs you took leading up to meeting him or experiencing him and the Whalers for the first time, it was almost like everything else just became, like, secondary for a little while. Yeah. But let's get up to that point. So you're in Poughkeepsie.

Yeah, yeah. You got a camera? You're a high school camera person? Well, my father died. My father was a doctor like you. What kind of doctor? Daddy was a urologist. Oh, yeah.

Specialist. Yeah. Yeah. Your father wasn't a urologist. Orthopedic. Yeah, right. I knew urologists, though. That's good.

When your dad's a doctor, you know all the other doctors. That's true. When you got a problem, it's like, we'll just take you over to Johnson. We'll take you to Morty's. We're playing tennis with him this afternoon. Exactly. So anyway, my father died when I was 17, and I was really close to him. I have three brothers.

And then I was at George Washington University, and then I went to the American College in Paris. I was at George Washington University, and then I went to the American College in Paris. And during that year, I met Jim Morrison and got him to help me write my term paper for Long Day's Journey into Night. How was he a help? He was excellent. Really? Just like Jim Morrison, he was excellent. I totally liked him so much. How did he help you?

Did he know that play? No, I'm just like, this is so characteristic of my behavior. You know, I'm meeting this major rock star, and I'm just thinking, God, Kate, you gotta get Long Day's Journey into Night In. Jim Morrison, okay. Listen to you. Great to meet you.

I'm sorry about that whole, you know, like what they were getting him for some sort of, you know... Obscenity? Obscenity thing. He was very concerned about that, actually. Was it when he moved there at the end of his career? Yeah, he was there with his girlfriend. So he's chubby and bearded?

He was not chubby. Okay. I'm here to tell people. Just bearded. No, he didn't have a beard. Oh, really? And he wasn't chubby. But this is where the last stop on the train for him.

I saw him two months before he died, yeah. Okay. How'd you meet him? Well, I was standing in line at the first national city bank on the chans lise and jim came up to me and asked me if i'd teach him french and you know i looked at him i thought oh he could help me with my long day's journey into night paper no i thought oh that's jim morrison and i said oh and i had two guys with me from college, you know. And I said, oh, yeah, I could teach you French. Yeah. And then I got into the, you know, desperate, will you help me write the term paper?

And he knew the play. He did. He did. He knew the play. And I was like, thank you, Jesus. Yeah. And did he help? Yes, he certainly did.

Oh. Yeah. Did you give him credit? No, I didn't give him credit. But so that was just a chance meeting. You weren't even a photographer. I liked him, though. I liked him. You. I liked him. You know, he's obviously a charming guy. No, no. There was something, there was something about him that was, he was charismatic, of course, but really, really intelligent. He told me he wanted to, you know, just stop being, doing music

and go back to filmmaking. And he was obviously a little bit terrified by all of the court stuff that was going on. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, they kind of beat him down a bit. A bit, yeah. Yeah. So that's before you're shooting pictures, though. Yeah, but that's significant relative to my going into the music photography because I

didn't take one picture of Jim. And I've only missed two people that I wanted to shoot. One's Albert Grossman because Albert always used to say to me, Kate, let me lose 15 pounds. Right. And I loved him and I have no photographs of him

because, you know, and I was close with him too. Where did you meet him in your life? Who was where it was in the mid 70s yeah i have i have this good friend anna capaldi whose husband was one of the her ex husband started traffic the group yeah yeah jim capaldi yeah and she's still a good friend of mine and she and she introduced me to albert grossman she's and she made she introduced me to Albert Grossman, and she introduced me to Bob Marley and Led Zeppelin. Okay.

So I could, like, go. Well, Grossman was Dylan's guy, right? Indeed, yeah. And Janis Joplin, I think. Yeah. So brilliant. Yeah? I mean, so fucking brilliant.

Yeah. These guys, like, the stories are just that they were, you know, tough. He was so generous with me. Oh, that's nice, yeah. I mean, and, you know, just like, you know, you just, you can just sense people, you know? I mean, I just, I'd stay at his house all the time. And he was-

In Woodstock? Yeah, in Bearsville, yeah. He was such, intellectually so sophisticated. I think Neil Gaiman has that house now. Indeed, that's true. Because subsequently I was really tight with his widow, Sally Grossman. She passed away a couple years ago. Well, I mean, I know that they were big personalities, but those guys redefined music.

Right. They had to be there too. You got the artists, but you got the other guys behind the scenes doing it. But that was the second part of my point that I was thinking about before I got here is that all of these managers, the extent to which these mentors help the creative, it's really significant. Totally. I mean, Arden was like, you know, my buddies in music management, he spent time with Art and talking to him about managing. I mean, they are the myth makers in a way. Right. You know, they've got to guide these guys.

And talent, you know, you can barely manage talent as people. I know. You know? I know. But, okay, so you're in France. When do you pick up a camera? So you're in France. When do you pick up a camera?

Well, my father passed away and I grifted his Nikon FTN, you know. Yeah. And, you know, because I asked my mother if I could drop out of George Washington University. Yeah. And she said yes, which shocked me. And I just like, you know, played my advantage, went to Kennedy, flew to London, which I'd become familiar with. This was after the Paris thing? Yeah, because I was in my second year in college in Paris when I met you. Okay, so you went back to home and then you dropped out.

Yeah, I went back and I was in GW, met this great professor who really taught me. Photographer person? Yeah, at the Cochran School of Art, which was part of George Wesleyan University. Who was that guy? Mark Power was his name, yeah. How did he change your mind? He just taught me the rudiments of photography.

It's like all that stuff, Mark, that you're saying was like putting you off, like the stop bath and the deck tall and all that, you know, D76, just like the dilution factor.

I'm like, you were like, I can't handle this stuff. How about those cans doing the negatives? I loved all that stuff. How about rolling the negatives in the dark?

I love that. And hoping they don't get smushed together. You know, I loved all that stuff. How about rolling the negatives in the dark? I love that. And hoping they don't get smushed together. You know, I was good at that. I'm not good at anything either. No, I can swim, drive, and take pictures, and that's kind of it. Okay, so he gives you the room memories, and then you go to London with your dad's camera. Yeah, I assimilated daddy's. Well, you can have it.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I went to London and then I became this rock photographer and then I photographed pretty much anybody. Yeah. But what does that, what does that mean? So you're, you go to London and what you get, you just get it. How, how do you become the person with the camera at the rock thing?

I mean, how do you get into the world? Well, I got there and all these friends of mine from gw were uh working at this shop in high holborn in london yeah and then i found this job and i worked there for a bit and then i found this job at the photographer's gallery where i met joseph kordelka uh david bailey leonard freed david hearn uh cecil beaton yeah and know, was just, you know, saturated with all these art books and photo books. Yeah. And I then, and then I saw this advert for a job at Disc and Music Echo. Yeah.

And I went along there with one photograph I'd taken of Elton John at a show, and they gave me a full-time job. Before he was big. Yeah. Yeah. at a show and they gave me a full-time job. Before he was big. Yeah. Yeah.

And then I met this art director who became very significant to my life because I met Dave Fudger and he said, oh, based on this picture, you definitely should get the gig. Oh, really? And then I worked with him at Sound subsequently, this other sort of weekly. There were five music weeklies in the 70s in London. And then I just shot, you know, Queen and Lynyrd Skynyrd and everyone you could think of. That's a big jump, Queen to Lynyrd Skynyrd. That's the full arc. Okay, so you had this picture of Elton John, which you took on your own.

Yeah. And what, you'd just gone to the show? Yeah, probably with my boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah. So what year is this, 70? I'd say probably like 74 my boyfriend. Yeah. And so what year is this, 70? I'd say probably like 74. Okay.

Yeah. So this is like early Elton, hasn't broke yet. Yeah. And what's going on in 74 in Britain is what, the beginning of punk-ish? Yeah, I think punk was, because Patti Smith came over to London and I worked with her in 75. That's when Horses came out. Right, okay. And then I was working with this writer friend of mine, John Ingham, and we had to meet Patti over in Paris.

She's the best. Yeah, she's the best. Yeah. So I shot her, and I would say that whole punk thing in London, which I was definitely a part of, because the guy I lived with is best friends with Malcolm McLaren. He was always at our house. Oh, really? Yeah, he was at our house. And they had that shop on King's Malcolm McLaren. He was always at our house. Oh, really? Yeah, he was at our house.

And they had that shop on Kings Road? Yeah, everyone was always hanging out there. Really? Yeah. And so, yeah, the punk thing was, you know, it started with me because I was friends with The Clash. How'd you meet those guys? Well, I was just really good friends with Paul Simonon and Joe Strummer and Mick Jones, and I loved their manager, Bernie Rhodes.

Yeah. And he said, Kate, will you take some photographs? And ultimately, one of them was used for the cover of the first Clash album. Oh, that's you. The one, were there any alley or whatever? Yeah. Wild. So you're shooting for this magazine, so that gets you ACDC.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That gets you ACDC. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That gets you Freddie Mercury. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Skinner. Yes, yeah. Nothing more. Skinner on the road was FUN. I'm a fucking big Skinner fan.

I got news for everybody. That was a trip. Not a bad record. It was a trip. All of them. Those guys knew how to party. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was nuts.

Ronnie and Alan and Gary. Yeah, you know, like Queen, I was with the writer John Ingham, and we were with Queen on the road, and their manager came in and said, you want to see the video? It's ready to see. So me and John were with Queen the first time they saw Bohemian Rhapsody. Oh, really? Yeah, and they said, you know, they said, oh, yeah, it looks pretty good. Oh, no kidding. So the original video. Yeah. These are the things that, you know, myth is made of. But when you, so in terms of evolving as a photographer, and is there a way to explain what you do and why you're so good at capturing these people?

Well, you have to remember, we're talking about the very beginning, and I've been doing it for 50 years. No, I get it, but still there's a sensibility. What do you have to cultivate to call forward a portrait on a kind of like, you can kind of consistently take a good portrait? Yeah. Well, it's definitely an applied skill. Sure. You learn as you go along.

Yeah, for sure. But is there, do you find that you disappear in the exchange in terms of, like some photographers talk about, you know, kind of being a fly on the wall or not being noticed? No, I don't disappear. Yeah. disappear. Yeah. There's only, I have found that, uh, you know, just like any, uh, human to human, uh, you know, relationship, you just, it's, you know, you have to be, and you cultivate this sort of sensitivity and some kind of telepathy, I reckon, so that you have a feel. If you're a portrait photographer, you gotta know how your subject feels and what your subject is telling you. Do you guide them at all?

You know, I don't. I really, really don't. I only do one thing, which I've learned over the course of doing this for a long time. I tell the subject that they can tell me whenever they feel burnout. Yeah. So they know there's an exit. Right. Otherwise, and they feel, and you see them have

this like relief, you know, otherwise I reckon they feel like they're like, you know, an insect on a pin. Right. This way they know, oh man, I can just tell her whenever I got a split. Yeah. And then once you tell them that, I mean, I'm putting myself in their shoes. Yeah. They, they seem to really just chill out and it seems to help. But there's a difference between shooting, obviously, live photographs, backstage photographs, and studio photographs. Right. Right? Because I imagine, well, live they barely notice you because you're a part of an audience in a way. But backstage, then you kind of got to pull back a little bit, right, and let them be what they're going to be.

Well, you know, when I was a kid, I did all that backstage stuff and live stuff. But now I just shoot these people in their house. Sure. So like when you were like going to Clash concerts. Yeah. I mean, what was the vibe? I mean, you're going to pick up on all that energy, right? I mean, it was new shit.

Yeah. They were seismically brilliant live. I mean, I got to say that the lighting was so terrible on those class shows. It was so difficult because I was shooting available light. Well, you got tri-X.

Yeah, I got tri-X, but still with them, I wanted color and it was like even at 15th of a second, you know, pushing the film. I just like, they were,

the lighting was really quite challenging. But so you were there like Motorhead was happening. Yeah, Lemmy. Everybody knew Lemmy. Yeah. Yeah, because it was like this, you know,

it was like IT and the underground press and Lemmy and Mick Farron. And I was good friends with Lester Bangs. And he came over. Lester would come over from, he lived in Detroit at the time, actually Royal Oak, Michigan. And he would stay with me and Joe.

And then he had his, I remember one time he was staying with us, and this is pretty funny. Yeah. I said, okay, good night. Yeah. And so he went into his room, and he put on white light, white heat on repeat. Yeah. And drank like a vat of white wine.

Yeah. And I could hear him like, you know, like moaning. I mean, just like, he was like, he was. Yeah. And then I worked with Lester a lot and we, so Lester was, you know, he was sort of the defining rock critic of that time. What was that? The late sixties, early seventies. I'd say Lester was about, uh, you know, we're talking, we're talking like 75, 76. He, he introduced me to William S. Burroughs and took me to meet William in New York and to be his photographer the first time I started shooting William. And then I shot William from

1975 to 1995. Oh, my God. Yeah. Because when I was looking at the pictures in some of your catalogs, you know, those are the pictures of him. Oh, thank you. I mean, like when you see the picture, I know that picture. Oh, man, thanks. But, like when you see the picture, you're like, I know that picture. Oh, man, thanks. But I wouldn't have known it was. But so Bangs was at Cream Magazine at the time. He was, right, yeah. And so as a person, because he's always characterized as very specific.

And I don't know if it's volatile, but he definitely had opinions. And he definitely championed a type of music that was not it was marginal music at the time. Really. Right. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And like he was like a huge Velvet Underground guy. I mean, no fake. I mean, I'm trying to tell you, you stand at my house with the white light. Yeah. No, I think that also what you're what you're intimating is that he was highly intelligent and he was a brilliant, brilliant writer. is that he was highly intelligent. Yeah. And he was a brilliant, brilliant writer.

And he, you know, defined the medium. And also, when he was interviewing William S. Burroughs, when he introduced me to William for the first time at William's flat on Franklin Street in New York, he, I mean, he just blew William's mind because he knew William's work just in, like, he knew it by heart. Yeah. And then, you know, Patti Smith came in and, well, at the end of the interview and I took her picture with William.

But Lester was a real genius. Well, that was the time where, you know, William was sort of holding court there in the bunker, right? No, this wasn't the bunker. This is when he had a loft on Franklin Street. Oh, it was't the bunker this is when he had a loft on franklin street before the bunker subsequently he was living in the bunker and i photographed him like there at the bunker a ton but you took those great pictures of him with the handgun too yeah that was at the bunker those were in i'd say probably 1984 okay so yeah so you you kind of when do you play out London? When are you done with London? Well, it's funny. All my friends, they married people to stay in the UK.

And I thought, no, no, no. And even this friend of mine from the photographer's gallery said, you can marry my brother. And I just thought, no, I don't want to like marry somebody to stay in England. I'm just going to go back to, I want to be American. So I went back to New York. So then I moved to New York. And I'd never lived in New York before as I'm from upstate New York, Poughkeepsie. And I moved into the flat that I still live in near Carnegie Hall. And then I progressed as a photographer. I met this, my

best friend, Carl Apfelschnit, who was a painter. And he took me through the art world. And I started shooting, you know, very focused on painters and the art world. Ed Ruscha and all these painters. You did Louise Bourgeois. Yeah. Is that how you say her name? Yeah, Louise Bourgeois. And then, you know, I mean, I shot a lot of John Giorno and William S. Burroughs. And were these for magazines?

Yeah, I mean, Louise Bourgeois was for the Washington Post. She was interesting. Yeah, she was genius. I photographed her when she was in her 90s and 70s. Yeah. So you get to New York and you just hit the ground running. But at that time, was that the late 70s-ish? Yeah. So punk is happening because you've got those pictures of Richard Howell, and he looks pretty young. Yeah. And Lou Reed's hanging around. So there's that mixture of what defined kind of experimental rock music in the late 60s, but they're all still around, like Kale and Reed and everybody's still around because Cale's producing Patti Smith. Right.

And they're all hanging out at Max's, I guess. Right. And you're there. Right. That must have been pretty fun. Do you remember? It was fun. I remember everything.

That's the problem. I do. And Iggy. Do you remember Iggy when he first came? I photographed Iggy in 77. He was genius. Yeah. Was that when he came and he rolled around in the glass?

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I photographed him when he was doing that tour where David Bowie was playing the piano. Okay. And he just, he was, those pictures were, those were so great to shoot him then. Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've talked to him.

He's another kind of brilliant guy. I enjoyed photographing him at his home as well. Yeah. He's a great photo subject. And what about Lou? Lou Reed is, you know, without doubt,

I mean, what can you say? Yeah. Did you know him? I did, yeah. I mean, I photographed him, I photographed him

in many, many times and, you know, I was friends with John Cale. I met him in the UK and then I took this famous picture And, you know, I was friends with John Cale. I met him in the U.K. And then I took this famous picture of Lou and John at Lou's apartment.

Yeah. Yeah, that was a riot. And then, yeah, I just saw Lou Reed so many times, you know, around New York. Yeah. And, you know, he was friends with a lot of, you know, art world friends of mine. And what was the vibe like in New York? Was that during the period? Well, I guess it was the early 70s.

Did it feel pretty broken? When I moved to New York from the UK. Yeah, like downtown? Yeah, man, for sure. Yeah. It was something else. I mean, yes, you can see it in Downtown 81, my friend Glenn O'Brien's movie. The best thing about that movie is there's all those pictures of the Lower East Side, the way it used to look, like the DMZ.

Yeah. It was burnt out. Yeah. Yeah, those were great times in New York. And CBs, a lot of CBs? I went to, you mean CBGs? Yeah. Yeah, I went there and photographed all those people, yeah.

Like who? The Heads? Verlaine? Yeah. Yeah, I went there and photographed all those people, yeah. Like who? The Heads, Verlaine. Talking Heads, Tom and Elaine. Heck, yeah, the whole. The Heartbreakers. Pretty much. Yeah, all of them. Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

How'd you, like, what was the vibe around? Because, like, it just seems like, you know, heroin kind of, like, came in and was, you know, really destructive. And I always wonder because, you know, people talk about it in the abstract a little bit. But, I mean, you must have been able to feel it. You can't hide dope. So I have to assume that, you know, there was a sort of constant sense that people could drop dead at any time. You know, there was a sort of constant sense that people could drop dead at any time. No, I mean, like, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, heroin, you know, tons of people took heroin. I knew a million painters and writers and well-known people.

And, you know, and, you know, just because you take heroin once in a while or once in a blue moon. Sure. Doesn't mean you're going to become somebody who takes it every day. I never, never, you day. I never understood that. Well, I mean, I'm not going to. I'm just saying it was around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some people were really featuring it.

And then there were all these art world figures who were just taking it once in a while. And it didn't become the definition of their life. You know, moving on. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, well, good for them. Yeah, right on. Yeah. while and it was like not it didn't become you know the definition of their life you know moving on sure sure yeah yeah well i mean well good for them yeah right on yeah yeah it didn't it didn't get him i guess right right and and so when did you meet warhol and was that was he somebody because when you talk about taking pictures of people yeah and the idea of it and the whole idea of what he gave to the art world.

I mean, when you met him, was it weird or exciting or were you a fan? You know, I've never been a, quote, fan of anybody. I mean, it's just not me. Not even photographers? Well, I mean, I'm not brain dead. I love Robert Frank. Oh, yeah, of course. I love Cartier Bresson.

Yeah. I love Eugene Atge. Yeah. I mean, I love Bressai, Kertesz. Yeah. But I've never been a fan, which is good because you don't want to be a fan when you're taking pictures of these people, right? No, of course. I mean, I know that from talking to them.

If I'm a fan, it's going to be a fanboy conversation. Yeah. And usually I have a fundamental, not cynicism, but I usually say lack of respect, but I don't think that's it. I think I have a fundamental need and ability to see them as people. Me too. Well, yeah, I think that's what makes you great. Oh, thanks.

I really appreciate it. Yeah. But that's interesting, though. So where did you photograph Warhol, though? Oh, right. So the thing is, you know, not to say that I wasn't impressed with Andy Warhol, because I liked him immeasurably. And he was a great photo subject. And he was always completely collaborative and willing to be photographed. And I was, to answer your question, I was working with my good friend Glenn O'Brien for interview as one of their contributing photographers. And Andy Warhol's studio was on one side and the interview magazine was on the other side. So I would go over to the other side and shoot Andy Warhol. And he was always completely willing to be photographed and he would always say he wanted to know where I got what I was wearing like oh where'd you get that shirt oh where'd you get that skirt that was his trick

where'd you get those boots you know I photographed him a lot over there and Bridget Berlin who I became friends with I just really revere her as an artist so he was that's so funny because that's such a trick you know I became friends with, I just really revere her as an artist. Yeah. So he was. That's so funny because that's such a trick, you know.

What? Yeah, where'd you get those boots? Yeah, because it like, it disarms you immediately. Yeah. I'm sure he was earnest, but that's like, you know, all of a sudden he makes it not about him. Interesting. And you feel seen. Yeah, true. You know?

He had a lot of things that I, I mean, you know what I noticed about him? I got every camera that Andy Warhol used. Yeah. He used a Minox GL for a while. I bought one. He used a Konica

with a pop-up flash. I got one. He famously used the Pro, the Polaroid Pro shoot with the long, you know, that was brilliant on his part. I did not get that.

But, yeah. It was interesting. But he always had something as an interface, as something, he had a kind of veil between him and other people. He had a cassette player and a camera. So I got stuff that I'm doing and that I can reconcile why I'm out here. Yeah. Because he went out a bit, a lot. Yeah.

And he made art out of it. Yeah. Sure. The Polaroid era was a pretty big era. Yeah. And all those paintings he took from photos. Polaroids, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And then Hockney did all that weird shit with the photo montages. Yeah, he did, yeah. Oh, my God. Those are something else. Right? Yeah, really. And he was a pretty good painter, too.

Yeah. But he did the, I still remember those photo montages. But, all right, so that's, so let's talk specifically about Burroughs, because you seem to have had a long relationship with him. Yeah, I really, I loved William. Because, like, when I, I don't have, you know, I've listened to him talk, and I've watched a documentary, and I've obviously read his books. But when, he's very disarming, because he's sort of this weird, sweet, almost soft-spoken old guy, right? William? Yeah.

A sweet, soft-spoken old guy? No. William, you know, me and William just got along. Yeah. And I would just say William was, you know, I mean, one of my two favorite photo subjects, Bob Marley being the other one. Yeah. And I would just say William was, you know, I mean, one of my two favorite photo subjects, Bob Marley being the other one. Yeah. William really knew how to be a photo subject. Yeah. He was just so great. Yeah. So I just when I was taking his portrait, it was just so gratifying. It was just so gratifying. And he got to sort of know that Kate's not going to, you know, you know, I don't know. I mean, we just I don't know what he was thinking.

But I know that we both respected each other. Yeah. And I treated him with immense respect and always good manners. And I didn't get too close. And I wasn't like a fan. Right. And, you know, I don't think that William was Mr. Fuzzy Bunny by any stretch. Yeah. I think he was definitely not like that.

But did you talk to him? Yeah, for sure. Tons. In fact, the last time I saw William, he was talking to me about how, and I was at John Journal at the bunker. Yeah. And I shot that Life is a Killer photograph in front of John's piece. Yeah.

And William wanted to talk to me about how next week he was going to have cataract surgery. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was looking at him and talking to him and listening to him. Yeah. And yeah, I just, I shot him at his home in Lawrence, Kansas. And like you, Mark, he was a cat freak and wrote a great book, which called The Cat Inside. I have that, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. And so I photographed him at his home in Lawrence, Kansas and in New York. And I just photographed him, you know, so much. I didn't photograph him in London. And he lived in London for quite a while. But the last time I saw him at the bunker when I did the Life is a Killer shoot, he had just seen Paul Bowles. He had come in from Kansas.

They're old friends, right? Yeah. And he hadn't seen Paul Bowles in 25 years. And I said, so did you have fun? Was it nice seeing Paul Bowles? And he said, oh, it was excellent. We talked about all of our old friends. They're all dead now. Something like that. Well, that's said, oh, it was excellent. We talked about all of our old friends. They're all dead now.

You know, something like that. Well, that's sweet. Oh, he was great. Yeah. And what do you think it was? Because what was always sort of fascinating to me is that when he was at the bunker, that there was a select group of young artists and musicians that would just come and sit around. I reckon, yeah. And did he say stuff or were they just wanted to be part of the presence?

I mean, was he spinning yarns? No, no, no. I mean, when I was there, you know, it was very, you know, defined. I was there with my best friend Carl Apfelschnitt, a painter. And I was there with Ira Silverberg, who was William's secretary's boyfriend, James Garraholt. So it was like me, John Giorno, Carl F. Fulchnit, Iris Silverberg, and William. Yeah.

So that was it. Yeah. And none of us were, you know, fans, and I wasn't taking heroin with William S. Burroughs. Yeah, yeah. I don't taking heroin with William S. Burroughs. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I mean, this sort of myth, which you're sort of alluding to, which makes sense about how, you know, young acolytes were sort of hanging on his every word.

I never saw that. That wasn't, oh, really? Yeah, because you were there for a reason. Oh, I was working, you know. And you shot Blondie and Madonna? Yeah, well, Debbie and Chris lived in the flat above me for a long time. Oh, where Sprouse was now? Yeah, where me and Sprouse.

They did live. Yeah. And I shot Debbie a lot. She was, she's impeccable. Oh, God. She's great. You guys still friends? Yeah, I like her a lot.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't see her, but, I mean, I photographed her out in her house in New Jersey. Out in New Jersey, she has a house. Because I was just, they're touring a bit. I just, earlier today, John Doe was in here from Hex. Oh, wow. Yeah, he's a good guy. Yeah, I've never met him.

Sweet guy. I photographed, is he related to Lydia Launch? No. No. He, X is him and Xene, Cervanca. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, X is him and Xene, Cervanca. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, well, Lydia is like around, right?

I photographed, well, because I did this photograph with Lydia Launch and William. And yeah, so yeah, that's what I met him. It sounds like there's a lot of photographs that are not in a book. Yeah, that's why I brought these. You know, I didn't have time. I looked on my iPad because I wanted to show you more pictures. And then I like just downloaded some, but we didn't have time

to look at them because I've shot like a ton of other people. And what are you going to do with them? With all these billions of pictures? Yeah, where's the big book? Well, I'm going to do the big book. Okay. That's what I'm, it's interesting. That is certainly what I am driving toward is the big book.

Yes. It's good. So how did this – because despite saying you're not a fan, there's definitely people you like as subjects and probably as people. Yeah. But it sounds to me like the Marley experience from the beginning, you know, it must have been hard for you to separate that in a way. I mean, I just couldn't ever forget Bob Marley. When did that happen first? In England?

Where did you first see him? I first photographed Bob in 1975 at the Lyceum. And then I just, you know, I met him afterwards after the show. Anna Capaldi introduced me to him. And then I got the film back, and the pictures were really good. And I'd never heard this kind of reggae before. And then I just really had a good rapport with him. So that's when I just started focusing on shooting this genre of music. And I kept going down to Jamaica and going back to Jamaica.

And, you know. So the music moved you. Yeah, the music. Mainly, well, Bob, really. I was Bob and the Wailers, you know. Family Man Barrett, his brother Carlton Barrett, the drummer. You know, Bob Marley and the Wailers. It was something else.

Yeah. And Bob, I still, when I look at these videos of him, you know, on YouTube, he was, he was. Transcendent? Yes. But they say, you know, more shaman than showman, you know. Yeah. He was just, yeah, that's how. So he really took me. And then I went on the road with him all over Europe.

Was that the Exodus tour? Yeah, the Exodus tour. And I photographed him in Paris and all over Germany and Copenhagen and Sweden. And then we went back to London. And then we just had a great rapport. And I shot him down. And I did the Kaya cover down in Jamaica. Oh, yeah.

And I just love photographing him. So before Bob, though, when you photographed these artists, I mean, did you like the music generally? I mean, were you like a Bowie person? I love David Bowie. I shot him a ton. Yeah. I mean, I love David Bowie.

David Bowie, then, I started shooting him in 1974. The first time I shot him was the Young Americans tour. Okay. He him in 1974. The first time I shot him was the Young Americans tour. He was in Philadelphia. I think he was using Sigma Sound in Philly, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, genius shows down there. And my brother went to Penn, and he still lives in Philly.

So I went down. I shot Bowie in Philly and those shows were great then I shot him at Radio City Young Americans brilliant he was great then I shot him

in Paris with the Thin White Duke ones those great lights with the white suit yeah and then

I photographed him in the studio making Diamond Dogs oh yeah and then and then then coincidentally, he moved right around

the corner from me in Woodstock, New York. Really? Yeah. So he was my neighbor. And I would see- Did you have a relationship with him?

Well, we'd see each other in the shop. Yeah. And we were like the only two people who went to the shop. Yeah. And we both like

looked at each other and both decided that, you know, it's like, I see you, you see me, great to see you. What's the shop? It's called The Cub. Oh.

It's still there. What is it? It's just this place where if you want to buy groceries, but you don't want to go all the way into town. Oh, okay. You want to stay in the mountains. Yeah, yeah. It's a great place. You acknowledged each other.

Yeah, we sure did, yeah. But was there any— I bring it up, Mark, only because I thought it was kind of coincidental that this person from my past would move in right around the corner from me. Yeah. You don't have a place up there anymore? No, I don't. Oh. Yeah. It seems in talking to you that the people that had the most impact in terms of your connection with them as artists were like that you shot were The Clash and Bowie and Marley. Yeah, I'd say those three were really, I mean, there's so many.

But you shot Zeppelin and everything, but they weren't. Yeah, I really loved working with them. Yeah? Yes, I did. You got those great, I mean, those are early shots of them. Yeah, they're like offstage. Like 75, 74. Yeah. Those are early shots of them. Yeah, they're like offstage. Like 75, 74. Yeah, but I guess it's weird, like, you know, that your experience with these people, it's very intimate and you grab these moments.

But I would assume that, you know, talking is not the thing, right? You're not going to, you know, it's not, you're really the gig. No, it's certainly not. How would you like to have a photographer who wouldn't shut up? No, I don't like when they tell me to do things. Yeah, I don't tell people what to do. Yeah. I mean, you know, you're there have a photographer who wouldn't shut up? No, I don't like when they tell me to do things. Yeah, I don't tell people what to do. Yeah. I mean, you know, you're there with a camera.

I mean, you know, what's the point? Let me ask you about, let's stick with this book because I want people to buy the book. Because, you know, it's interesting what happened with reggae when it kind of came onto the world scene. It really did change everything musically, you know? And it was really a moment. And then, like, it almost kind of got played out a little bit over time. But, you know, there's people that, you know, Keith Richards has a connection to it in a very deep way.

Well, Keith Richards wrote a piece for the book. Yeah, in the back of the book. And also Lenny Kravitz wrote an incredible piece. And Keith's is great. And then Patti Smith wrote the introduction, which is beautiful. And then Bruce Springsteen wrote a piece for it. Yeah, but somehow or another that because of your love of the music and of the subject of Bob, this book, you're able to capture the history of that time and the history of the music, but also the sociopolitical element of Jamaica. That like, this is like a,

it's almost like a full kind of documentary photography book because it's not just, you know, the players, but it's what they were up against. Oh yeah, the One Love Peace concert was very political. And these guys, some of them were under threat, right? I think so, yeah. I don't know what the situation around Peter Tosh getting killed was. I don't either.

But it seemed like that they were up against, that it was a real uprising. Right. And that he was the voice of something. I photographed these gunmen who were, you know, serious gunmen, Bucky Marshall. And, you know, there was a truce for about 15 seconds, and I was down there in Rima, and I think they thought I was a hallucination. How many times did you go down there?

Oh, a lot. I was sent down there by a lot of record companies, and I like going down there still. Yeah, oh, really? And I usually stay at GoldenEye, I mean, because it's so beautiful. You can look at where Ian Fleming used to write and everything. And what, like, you took a lot of pictures of Scratch Perry, right?

Yeah, I fucking loved him. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a new record coming out, that one that he did with Keith. They're reissuing it. Oh, really? Yeah, it's coming out. Oh, fantastic.

For Record Store Day. That's, really? Yeah. Because, you know, I really wanted Keith Richard to be interviewed for this book. Yeah. And I was really glad that he did it because he worked with Robbie and Sly. Yeah. And he worked with Scratch.

Yeah. He loved it down there. He was down there when he was on The Lamb. Oh, really? I think originally he was just trying to avoid the different problems he was having with himself and with the law. I mean, I thought. And I think that's how he ended up there. I thought to myself.

Sorry to interrupt you. That's all right. I thought to myself, Mark. Oh, yeah. Probably Mark is having me on the show because he's such a Keith person. No. Yeah, you are with the hats. No, no.

I am a Keith person. You got the hat. But this is the first. He hasn't come. We've been talking an hour. He didn't come up. Yeah, you are with the hats. No, no, I am a Keith person. You got the hat. But this is the first, he hasn't come up, we've been talking an hour and he didn't come up. Oh, okay. I mean, I know you did some shots of the Stones, but it didn't seem like. I shot them a lot. You did? I have a lot of shots of them live, yeah.

But what about backstage and stuff? And, you know, offstage I have a bit. Yeah, I have a bit offstage. Yeah. And Mick Jagger was down at the One Love Peace concert. It's in my book, Rebel Music. No, I saw the picture, yeah. Yeah.

But, you know. He asked you for money? Well, yeah. I mean, he didn't have any cash. What is it with rich people not carrying any cash? I don't know. What's that about? That's a thing.

It is a thing. That's a thing. I've seen it before. I should try that. Yeah, why not? Yeah. You know, I'd love to, like, pay for this, but I don't have any cash. But it seems like in the book, which is, again, beautiful, that you've got the full arc of his life because you were asked to go down there and shoot the funeral.

Yeah, I went by myself. Was that devastating? It was unbelievable, his funeral. Yeah, it was devastating, too. He died of gangrene? No, no, no. He died of cancer. Oh, of cancer.

Okay. And he was 36. Oh, my God. And you have to remember that when I was on the road with Bob in 77, he was only 32, and he'd already done Exodus. He'd done the major, most of his records he'd done. So, I mean, that's how he passed away. But the funeral was just so epic and it was, he was lying in state and I was sent down there by a tabloid out of the UK.

I flew down there and I just went in and I photographed the Ethiopian priests and the ceremony and then the whole cortege all the way from Kingston to St. Anne. And I was right in front of the casket in this flatbed truck. And we got to where he was being buried and it was the whole mountainside was covered with people. And, yeah, it was devastating. Yeah. Because if he was alive now, I can't imagine how great his music would be. I mean, yes. Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, you've shot a lot of people that have passed probably prematurely. And it's hard to know what people would have done. That's true.

But Bob was only 36. I know. I'm still good friends with his cook. Yeah. Yeah, his cook. Yeah? Yeah, Gilly. Yeah? And he's in Miami, and we talk regularly. Does he cook?

He certainly does. I was thinking about you, about his cooking, because his recipes are in my book, Rebel Music. Yeah. And he's a lovely chap. Uh, and, uh, and he, he's, he, he's a lovely chap. Yeah. And, uh, you know, this is very interesting was when I was in the road with Bob Marley and the Whalers is that they would always have to stay in a hotel with a kitchen because Gilly had to do the ITAL food and it would be very, you know, I mean, you know, I. There was restrictions? I don't know.

I mean, it was just very, really great health food. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I don't know. I can't really define what Gilly's recipes are, but they're in the book. Okay. Some of them.

Yeah. Who helped you put this book together? Oh, Genesis Publications. Yeah. They published it. But whose idea was it to have the sort of running oral history of things? Oh, you mean my narrative around the photographs? Yeah, yeah. But also talking to people. It seems like you placed quotes from all these different

people that were there. Yeah. That was all you? Well, no. My friend, Megan Voss, who's married to Steve Jordan, who plays with the Rolling Stones. I know Steve Jordan. Oh, he's fantastic. Great. And Megan is heaven. Yeah. And Megan came around to my studio and we, you know, I'd already done the book, put it together for Genesis. Yeah. And Megan said, now listen, man, I want to sit down with you and we're going to like, just like, you know, elaborate on your answers a bit. Yeah.

And she helped me immeasurably. Yeah. And how'd you wrangle all the different quotes from people who were part of it? Oh, you mean like Paul Simonon and Joe Strummer? Yeah, I mean. They're all friends ofably. Yeah. And how'd you wrangle all the different quotes from people who were part of it? Oh, you mean like Paul Simonon and Joe Strummer? Yeah, I mean. They're all friends of mine. Yeah. And, you know, we just got everybody that we wanted to.

I mean, Steve got us Springsteen. Yeah. And, you know, we tried to get Keith the first time out because this is a reiteration of the designer book that came out in 2004. Now we put more pictures in it, and we did a different layout and more substance to it. Yeah. And it's a bookstore version, and it's a lower price point. So that's why it's really worth getting. And there seems to be some Bob Marley in the air right now.

There's a movie coming out. Yeah, there's a movie about Bob coming out. Yeah, I don't know how that's going to be. I think it's going to be great. Yeah? Yeah, because you got to think positive, Mark. Okay. And you got to remember that Bob's message and his spirit were all about interdependence and one love.

And this is no jive. And he was really a really conscious person. And so if this movie makes people listen to his music, this is a good thing. Yeah. I got to listen to some now. Yeah, for sure. What's your favorite Bob Marley record?

You know, I'll tell you the truth. I love Rastaman Vibration. Yeah. I mean, I can't find anything I don't like about that. Yeah, yeah. I love Natty Dredd. Yeah, I love Natty Dredd. I, you know, I love Burnin'.

Yeah. I love Catch a Fire. So all of them. I love Uprising. Yeah. And so I love Exodus. Yeah. It's like Exodus, it's almost like it builds up to Exodus.

Yeah. And when I was on the road with them, they gave me the record to listen to before it came out. And it really inspired my photographs. Yeah. Well, you definitely got the spirit of all of them. Yeah. Just remember Family Man Barrett and his brother Carlton Barrett, the bass and the drums. Yeah. Wow. Because you're a musician. Yeah, yeah.

And then, you know, you're... That rhythm section. Yeah, that a musician. That rhythm section. That was it. Well, I think we did good. You feel alright? I feel fantastic. I'm so grateful that you had me. You're going to leave here feeling like it was good? You got all the things on

your pads that you wanted to do? I just want to make sure that I let you know, Mark, that I have been working dutifully and diligently and plan to keep working until I get my anthology out. I just got to like, you know, I'm working on that. That's going to be great. Because a lot of the pictures are out there, but they're not published in a collection. Like you did them for outlets.

Definitely. Right. For every publication. And yeah, for sure. Yeah. And now you just got to wrangle them all together. Definitely. Right? For every publication and yeah, for sure. Yeah. And now you just got to wrangle them all together. Right on. You got, and you still working, you don't do your own lab stuff, do you?

No way. Yeah. But I'm doing a really big painter who I had mentioned, but I can't pronounce his name correctly and I don't want to blow it, on December 6th. I can't pronounce his name correctly, and I don't want to blow it, on December 6th. So I'm still shooting, and it's kind of like my whole MO is like I shoot, shoot, shoot a lot. Yeah. Like, I mean, just a lot. And then I just stop.

And then when I go through the stop period, I'm like, what's going on with the stop period? And then finally, like, it comes back. Oh, good. But I don't know if you can relate to that. Sure. It's like this germinate. I can't stop for very long. But, you know, even if I stop for two weeks, I'm like, where, who am I?

That's right. Because you were saying that during the pandemic. Right. Do I want to do this? Yeah, what's my place in the world? That's right. What is it? You know, I mean, but at least with photographs, you leave something. With comedy, it goes.

It just goes into the ether. I was thinking about you because I was thinking about how, you know, I listen to you regularly, and I just am so respectful of you. And I was watching this bio of Mike Nichols the other night and how great it was just to listen to him think and talk. And this is what I think about you, Mark. Well, thank you. You're one of the great verbal maestros right now. Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

This is why I came all the way to Los Angeles to talk to you. Well, I'm honored. Yeah, my pleasure. And I was happy that we were able to do it. And I think it went great. Thanks for coming. Thank you. I'm happy that we were able to do it.

And I think it went great. Thanks for coming. Thank you. There you go. Wild. We went through it. A lot of people, a lot of pictures. You can get Rebel Music at MarleyBook.com and look at some of her other stuff.

I mean, there's a picture of Ozzy Osbourne she did. I don't know if you can find it, but he looks like a kid. He looks so sweet. Anyway, hang out for a minute. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Center in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Discover the timeless elegance of cozy where furniture meets innovation. Designed in Canada, the sofa collections are not just elegant, they're modular, designed to adapt and evolve with your life. Reconfigure

them anytime for a fresh look or a new space. Experience the cozy difference with furniture that grows with you, delivered to your door quickly and for free. Assembly is a breeze, setting you up for years of comfort and style. Don't break the bank. Cozy's Direct2 model ensures that quality and value go hand in hand. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture. Hey, a very happy birthday to Fred Armisen. He came to my birthday party this year, so I'm wishing him a great birthday right here on the show. And you can check out my episode with Fred from back in 2015 right now for free in whatever podcast app you're using. It's episode 636.

Was meeting musicians that you respected more exciting than doing the show? It was, yes. It was really exciting. Seeing all the different kinds too you know stuff I never people I never would have

imagined meeting like who I remember meeting the the musicians for Paul Simon Steve Gadd the drummer it never occurred to me

that I'd ever meet this person right he'd been with him for years right oh he's the he's um 50 Ways to Leave Your Love yeah

he composed that drum beat yeah so at the studio He's 50 Ways to Leave Your Love. He composed that drum beat. So at the studio, this is going to sound like a made-up talk show story, but I... Have you told it many times? No.

Okay. But I saw him and I go, you got to show me that beat. So we went to the kit. We went to the kit and he showed me what it is yeah and it's an upside down

insane beat that makes no sense and he was like and you know how musicians you assume they talk like scholars yeah he was like a New York guy

he's like yeah I just kind of turned around you know I had this he's very sort of um very he explained it in a very simple way

but it's a very upside down bizarre beat can you nail, but it's a very upside down, bizarre beat. Can you nail it? Yeah, it's like. You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you couldn't have figured that out on your own? No way, no way.

Really? Because the way you hear it is different than it's played. Oh, okay. Again, that's episode 636, and you can listen to it for free right now. But if you want to listen to all WTF episodes ad-free, you can sign up for WTF Plus. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Here we go. This is actually, I'm playing the guitar that Fred Armisen gave to me. Thank you. Thank you. BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIVES, BOOMER LIV Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda, cat eaves is everywhere.