WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1496 - Rodney Crowell / John Doe

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

As one of country music’s most prolific singer-songwriters, Rodney Crowell talks with Marc about the art of songwriting, his evolution as a performer, and his collaborations with everyone from Emmylou Harris to Waylon Jennings to Rosanne Cash to Jeff Tweedy, who just produced Rodney’s latest album, The Chicago Sessions. Also, John Doe from the band X returns to the show to talk about his lead role in the new film D.O.A. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel to show your true heart is to risk your life when I die here you'll never leave

Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What the fuckocrats? What the fuck publicans? I don't the fuck nicks what the fuckocrats what the fuck publicans i don't think there's a lot of you but i'll say hello anyways i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it welcome back get out of here whatever you need to hear so today on the show

uh john doe is back. He's up first. He's the lead singer of the band X and was on back in 2015, episode 586. He has a new movie out. So it was a good time to have him back. And Rodney Crowell. Rodney Crowell is also here. He's one of the biggest country music singer-songwriters out there.

Not just for himself, but for other artists as well, like Jerry Reed, Guy Clark, Emmylou Harris, Bob Seger, Crystal Gale. He's had five number ones on the Billboard country charts and two Grammy awards. And he's just most recently produced a record with Jeff Tweedy of Wilco. It's called the Chicago sessions, which is great. And it's one of those things with him where, you know, I didn't know, I didn't know about Rodney Crowell. I'd gotten a few of his records here and there sent to me, and I didn't know where to, where, how to contextualize them, where to place them. And then I was at Willie's 90th, uh, the night, the second night when Keith was there, Billy Strings, and Rodney Crowell came out with just a guitar and did a song, and it fucking was devastating to me, and

it had so much presence. That was also the night I had the Dave Matthews revelation that I didn't want to have, which was that he's a very talented and charismatic and engaging performer. He also stepped out there with just a guitar. But I've kind of compartmentalized that. There's something I'm still refusing to accept about Dave Matthews as a whole thing. But Rodney Crowell, just like I was crying. And, you know, that's not hard right now, the crying.

It comes. It definitely not. It comes. It definitely comes. But these guys are on. I'll talk a little bit more about my relationship with country music in a minute. Los Angeles. Hey, I'm at the Elysian Theater this Friday, December 15th. And next Friday, the 22nd. I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on Thursday, December 28th. And I'm at Largo on Tuesday, January 9th. Now those shows

like on the 22nd and the 28th, they might be just me and you, whoever you are and the few people you bring, but look, we'll work it out. I've got to work it out. So if you want to be present for that, I would come to those. And then I'm in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows. San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. I'll be introducing a screening of McCabe and Mrs. Miller on February 4th at the Roxy in San Francisco. You can get tickets for that at roxie.com. Portland, Maine, I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts, outside Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th.

Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Man, I'm going to be driving to those, I bet. Yeah, I'm probably going to be driving. I wonder if it's going to be snowy and freezing. Probably. Atlanta, Georgia. I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd.

And I'll be in Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moontower Comedy Festival. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets. And, you know, come out. The other thing that I need to talk about briefly is that, uh, I, I discussed something on the show the other day that, uh, you know, this, this was, uh, yeah, this was shattering to me. It was, uh, it was, it was a brutal reality where I don't think I, I know that I'm a bit of a mark. I know that I'm a bit of a sucker. I know that I'm, uh, compelled to things that'll fuck with me emotionally, you know, whether it's, uh, uh – I don't do it on purpose, but certain movies, certain commercials, certain people.

It's how I feel. It's what makes me feel. I can generate stuff from the inside, but I like the stuff from the outside. So I talked about this phenomenon of reels on Instagram, as we usually watch them I watch them, of interspecies affection and love and care, you know, and I talked about this amazing video where a giant shark delivered a sea turtle in trouble to a boat, to a fisherman, had a netting around its neck and it couldn't breathe properly and the shark gave, pushed it to the boat and the fishermen cut off the thing off the net and it went away. And, you know, everybody's crying, not a dry eye in the house.

And I thought it was so amazing, this interspecies, like what does it imply about the world of wildlife where they do have this experience of caring for each other outside of their species, you know, and turns out, I don't know if I'm grateful for this or not. Uh, some woman DM me on Instagram said, uh, you know, she went to one of those sites to check the validity of the video. Not real, not real. It's, it's mashup. It's a mashup of three different videos. And I just, my entire reality came unglued, untethered. I was lost in the world, floating freely through space with no hope. I thought, you know, it looks like that turtle got saved in whatever situation that it was in,

but the shark had nothing to do with it. I don't know, maybe in the first part of the video, that shark was trying to eat that turtle. I don't know. I assume they didn't eat them. I don't know, maybe in the first part of that video, that shark was trying to eat that turtle. I don't know. I assume they didn't eat them. I don't know. But does this mean none of it's true? Does this mean that the kitten and the monkey, that's not true? Does it mean that the crow didn't push the hedgehog across the street? Does it mean that the duck with the kitten isn't true? Does it mean that the doggies and the kitties and the ducks, they don't really hang out together with love? Does it mean it's all fake?

Is that what's going to happen in the future? It's just all, you're going to doubt everything other than what's right in fucking front of you. You. Even, but that's a different other, yeah, you can doubt that, but you know, that's organic. But do we got to doubt everything i guess we do i guess we do or we just got to let it flow over us take the feelings that come try to parse them hope they're not dangerous and move on with our life oh look

you guys i'm doing what i can here so johne is a good guy in a great fucking band. I saw X not long ago. They're doing a new record. They're back out on tour a bit, and they still fucking rock. And I can't say that about most bands, even my favorite bands. But X is very specific. They are their own thing, and it's a great thing, and they fucking rock. So I couldn't help but talk to John a bit about that.

But he's got a new movie out. It's a remake of the movie DOA. He plays the lead, and you can buy or rent that on all digital on-demand platforms. This is me catching up with the legend, John Doe. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. So, okay. So now you text me and you're like, they're remaking DOA.

Yeah. My first thought is like, why? Because it's public domain. Is that it? Yeah. No shit. Well, that was one of the reasons.

I had no idea that movies can become public domain. Yeah. What's the name of the guy who made it? Kurt St. Thomas. Yeah, because I'm doing research. I'm watching the movie. Like, where does that, how did that come together? What do you, like?

As things do. Just weird circumstance. So Kurt's made a couple other movies. They went straight to video. And he's actually known for radio. He worked at WFNX. He worked in Boston. Yeah.

I remember back in the day. With your buddy Tony V. Wasn't Tony V one of your old pals from Boston? That's right. Of course he is. He's like the main guy. Yeah. He's still there.

He's like one of the guys that everyone reveres and respects. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's a celebrity there. But I remember WFNX. I remember that whole scene back then. That was the alt-rock station before alt-rock existed. Yep. So he's probably playing your music.

He did. Kurt also booked a Green Day show outside, and like 20,000 or 30,000 people showed up. Because it was just as they were starting, but it was kind of like when Nirvana just blew up overnight. Yeah. Yeah, like 20,000 or 30,000 people showed up, and they thought they were going to be like 2,000. So he's a radio guy. He's made a couple movies.

Yeah, and so he's living in St. Augustine, Florida. Oh, how's that? And, well, his mom lives there. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful old town. Yeah. And as he's walking around there, he's thinking, like, this looks like a movie set. This looks like the backlot from, you know, Warner Brothers or something.

Yeah. And then he reads that DOA is public domain. And what does he hear in his head? He hears the X song where we name off the band names. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what about the Flesh Eaters and DOA and Big Boys and Black Flag? Right. And he thinks, DOA.

Right. It's a sign. I'm going to call up Doe. Wow. Doe is DOA, you know. Yeah, he's been hanging out in Florida too long. Brain's getting mushy. Right.

But so we played there in 2017, played in St. Augustine because it was like 40 years of X. Yeah. And Kirk comes up to me and says, hey, man, what's going on? La, la, la. We exchanged pleasantries and we went out after the show. And he goes, I'm going to remake D-O-A and you're going gonna be the guy yeah it's like what wow sure yeah like i get to be the guy yeah yeah yeah count me in it's your you're the narrator i'm the man main guy yeah so it's kind of like i mean and to be honest i thought this is never gonna happen right but it. But it did. Yeah. And when, you know, like with Warren Oates or Harry Dean, Stanton, you know,

I'm not that class of actor. Mm-hmm. But having been in a bunch of, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're in a bunch of shit. Yeah. And some of it's good and some of it's terrible. Sure.

But you're always just the, you know, some other, you know. Yeah, yeah. If you get a second name, then you know you're doing better. Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, yeah. Yeah. If you get a second name, then, you know, you're, you're doing better. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you're Bill. Yeah. That's a great, but everybody knows you and you, if you're Bill Jones, then you're, then you're a little bit higher up in the, in the, you know, it's just funny. Cause I, I remember now, like, cause like I watched it a while ago, but like Penfield's in it. Yeah. You know,

he's got these like primarily radio and music guys doing a lot of stuff in it. Yeah. He's got these primarily radio and music guys doing a lot of stuff in there. Yeah. Jake Labatz is in it. What's he from? He's a guitar player, blues player in Chicago. Yeah. But, you know, I got to be the guy, and that was really rewarding. It was shot on a

shoestring. It was, you know, it's like legit film noir because all those things, like, they did them in 10 days. How long did you do it? How long did it take? It's like two weeks. Really? Yeah.

On all digital, though? Well, it was, yeah, one of those Sony RED cameras. But the cinematographer is a legit guy. He did, you know, a bunch of Iron Man 2. He's a serious DP. Yeah,p yeah yeah yeah but you know what i'm talking about when you get to be you know and and so well you get to be like you like if someone asks you to do a movie and you think like how long is it gonna take where's it at yeah and it's just like all right i got that seems fine yeah how much or or as robert bishop used say, how much do I have to fall down?

But, you know, it's. You had a good time. Yeah. And it's very punk rock because it's all DIY. Yeah. You know, right now it's streaming on, you know, Apple Plus and Google Play and all these kinds of things. How did you end up? Because I remember when we first talked that it just seemed like pulling a screening together was a difficult thing out here.

Did you get it out? Yeah. Yeah, we had a premiere up at the Los Feliz 3. Oh, okay. It was great. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, we had, well, we won a bunch of awards, like smaller film festival awards.

Okay. I think 25 or so. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, that's good. And so we did the film circuit, and then we're going to do another screening maybe in January, February up in San Francisco. We did one in Boston.

Actually, I was supposed to go to the one in Boston, and they diverted my flight to JFK. I missed the whole thing, but Tony V stepped in. Tony. Stepped in, and he was like, everybody loved him.

Sure. He's Boston. He's fucking Tony V. In Boston, that's sort of like, the comedy's sort of like the dance hall circuit in Texas.

Dig it. There are guys that are, you know, definitely regional, and he's definitely one of those guys. But he's one of those guys that all the young guys respect.

Right. Still. I mean, you know, I just did a big thing out there with Dennis Leary, this benefit. And I came up in Boston as a comic. And there's definitely kind of these acts that are just, they're just animals. I mean, they're like the, they're just road warriors and they can just do the thing and they've been around forever and it's always great seeing them. But it seemed like some of them are old school and Tony sort of influenced what would be more of a punk rock alternative long form thing it gets a lot

of respect yeah yeah yeah and it was uh and was dana gould part of that too yeah dana left early dana started when he was like a kid you know when he was like in his teens. But he went to San Francisco, you know, fairly early. So he knew all those guys when he was like a kid almost. But he got out and really, because I don't think, you know, Boston as a scene was that hospitable to what he was doing. Right. Because, you know, he could do anything. He's sort of an interesting character.

Very dark guy. But he can, you know, song, dance, mimic, you know, voices. And he's very brilliant. But it's, you know, at the core of it is some darkness. Yeah. And, well, isn't that the core of all? But he was one of the first guys that would bring it out. I mean, usually it's assumed.

Right. But your job is like to hide it. Yeah. You know, or to sort of make it palatable. But he would go right in. Yeah. I still talk to him. He's great.

Good writer. Oh, yeah. I mean, he was a Simpsons guy for a long time. Yeah. Did you ever do a Simpsons? No. Yeah. Not famous enough.

Oh, come on. That's okay. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. That's why we still have cred. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

We never had like the one hit and the dumb haircut. That's true. But like, you know, you can get. Well, we did have a couple. I did have a dumb haircut. Which one? Which dumb haircut? I had a flat top with fender.

I had a flat top where you grease back the sides. Well, that's back now. Oh, sort of. That was sort of dumb. Yeah. But doing this movie was awesome. Yeah. You know, because we really had to like get favors done.

And we went to the, or Kurt went to the St. Augustine films, um, commissioner or whoever said, I want to get a, I want to pull some permits to make a movie here in St. Augustine, which is a tiny little town, right. The oldest city in America. Yeah. And he said, cause he's, he had done some shooting in LA where it's thousands and thousands of dollars to get a permit. Right. And he said, so how much is the permit? He said, $35. Come on. For how much?

Yeah. Anywhere you want. For a month or longer. It was $35 fucking dollar, 25. And it looks good. It's a weird, pretty place. Yeah. Oh, it's got all the Spanish moss.

It's very, very, you know, it looks creepy. And we got alligators in it. Yeah. very, very, you know, it looks creepy. Yeah. And we got alligators in it. Yeah. Gotta have alligators. Got alligators. Got pretty women. Sure.

Yeah. It had all the things that you needed to have. Got femme fatales and also, like, creepy business people. Yeah. And there's, you know. Yeah. The writer, Nick Griffin, I got to mention him because Kurt did a couple of passes on the script.

Yep. And I'm reading it and going like, yeah, but the story doesn't make all that much sense. And I said, hey, I've got a pal. Yeah. Whose favorite movie, and he's a legit screenwriter,

and his favorite movie is Chinatown. Do you mind if I give him a chance? And Nick had all these great lines. Yeah. One of them, the Tony V says, right. Actually, when he he's, he's holding me as Jake Labatze is about to pummel me. Yeah. And Tony V

says, don't fight. It'll go quicker. I was like, that's like philosophy. Like I need to apply that. We all need to apply that to our lives. Don't fight. It'll go quicker. Yeah, because it could be either a sort of spiritual thing or something just to accept death either way, right? Yeah. So Nick Griffin, what has he done? He did Matchstick Men. That's right. I knew I know the name.

His brother's a pretty hot shit writer. He also did a TV series called Terriers, which was pretty good with Donald Logue. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it only lasted like one or two seasons. I think Donald Logue is in the lumber business now. What? Yeah, he's got some, I can't remember where he lives, but he does that thing where you get repurposed wood. Oh, yeah. And he's got like a company that does wood.

Smart. Sure. It's like in Montana or somewhere. I can't remember. It's been years since I talked to him. But he's dealing in that. I forget. Is it repurposed wood?

Yeah, like found. Yeah, recovered wood. Yeah, where they pull a cypress log out of the swamp or something and then cut it up. That kind of stuff. Yeah, it's insane. I mean, that's sort of like tens of thousands of dollars to get a plank. No, I know.

I mean, it seems like it's a good business, but actors are interesting. Because when they're not working, they've got to figure out something to do, man. I mean, musicians can all play. You just go play. What are you going to do? I'm bored. I'm going to go play'm gonna go play let's do a show actors are like i don't fucking know i gotta do something to make my life interesting jesus christ i always thought that that's why actors were a little sideways some of them because they can't because they can't just

go do their thing no but they're sitting around they gotta and then if they're relatively famous i find the character actors are more interesting because they know the score. You know, they're going in there and they got to show up and do this supporting thing. And usually they're much more interesting characters. But the ones I know, they're kind of like John C. Reilly, Toby Huss. Yeah. I know Pat Healy, who was just in that Scorsese film. And these guys have to, you know, they generally lead, I think, more interesting lives.

Like, they're artists or they take photographs or they paint or whatever. Yeah. But, like, Stephen Dorff's another one. He's out in Malibu hanging around. Right. I think if you're going to be an actor, you better enjoy free time.

Yeah. I can't take it, man. Sitting around in that trailer. Fuck. Oh, I know. Should I bring a guitar with you? Oh, yeah. Always. You do take it, man. Sitting around in that trailer. Fuck. Oh, I know. Did she bring a guitar with you? Oh, yeah. Always.

You do? Oh, sure. But the thing, it's interesting because when you do get those two, three scene parts, you know that you got to go in ready and on. Yeah. And that's the hardest thing. You're sitting around for like fucking 10 hours right and it's like go yeah like what now yeah yeah go yeah you've been waiting eight hours

to do this you've been in your trailer for two days are you ready yeah i know and you got that's a concern if like you sit in the trailer for 10 hours and you got one scene and you're all amped up yeah and you come in with too much energy but it's easier to work down than up yeah so but you're in the whole movie yeah so you kept moving right yeah what were you doing like eight ten page days and you had it work oh easy yeah yeah easy but i mean luckily my character wasn't wasn't like huge pages john beiner yeah the comic legendary comic yeah know, being the bad guy, which was a total coup. Yeah. And he's so understated.

He would do a full page, just boom. He's been around so long. He was a perfect choice. You know, it's nice when you see these guys get a little work. And he has a great line as well. He says, great thing about this country, there's always more. And, you know, right after World War II, because this is set in the, you know, period, set in 49. It's so great.

And it's like deadpan. Yeah. Because at that point, there was always more. Great thing about this country. Yes. Now it's a great thing about this country. We're running out of time. We're running out.

Let's not go there. All right, buddy. It's too sad. Yeah. It is. It makes me out. Let's not go there. All right, buddy. It's too sad. Yeah. It is. It makes me sad. It makes me really sad. Everything?

Climate, politics, people, consumerism, capitalism, the whole fucking, the drain. Everything we knew was coming is here. Yeah. Everything we were most afraid of is happening. Better for worse. Yeah. Yeah. Is that why most afraid of is happening. Better for worse. Yeah. Yeah. Is that why you have

a half a hammer on your desk here? This is random stuff that was in the old garage. You remember the old garage. It was all cluttered with all kinds of crap. So then I had to,

most of that stuff's up in the house now. So I had to pick random things that were around. No, it's good. I remember, I found that hammer somewhere.

It's like the scene of the set of a film noir. It's got a freaking folding knife that would slit your belly open.. It's got a freaking folding knife. Yeah, yeah. Slit your belly open. Yeah, I got a slide. Whose slide is that?

I got a couple of slides, I think. Derek Trucks gave me one, but this is, what's his name? Ben Harper. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's good. And Charlie Musselwhite gave me some dirty harmonicas. That's what you want. Here's a harmonica that I.

You could make a Charlie Musselwhite out of that if you had the technology. You sure could. You could make a whole army of Charlie Musselwhite. We might need to soon. Well, I'm glad you're doing new things. I'm glad the new record, the movie's exciting and people can see it on Apple TV.

Yeah, or YouTube. Apple Plus, yeah. YouTube, Google Play. The new DOA. Yeah. Yeah. And what are the expectations? How's it, I guess, he sold it, so did you make some money?

No, that's why it's video on demand. Okay, so that's it. We went to a bunch of indie film distributors and said, well, I don't think we can get it on this, and we probably can't do it on that. We could get it on video on demand. It's like, we can do that ourselves, motherfucker. Yeah. Well, it's good seeing you. Good talking to you.

Thanks for the invite. Thanks for the t-shirt. Thanks for the movie. Thanks for the t-shirts and the, yeah. Maybe we'll get some people to watch it. Yeah. Thanks, buddy. All right. Thanks.

All right. DOA is available to buy or rent on all digital platforms like Apple, Amazon, and YouTube. And to talk about Rodney, you know, with me and country music, I did grow up in New Mexico. There was country music around. I remember watching Hee Haw. I think it came on before the Walt Disney Show, or maybe it was the Porter Wagner Show. But I didn't grow up in the world of country music, and it's something that I've had to backload. But as I've said before, there is no late to the party.

There's constant revelations. There's constantly things being revealed. There's things you can find. Music and most everything else happens all the time, all at once, out there in the world. No context. But I certainly love country music, and I've grown grown with it and i'm always trying to find new country music i mean here on this show uh with rodney he talked a lot about guy clark i got to get started on guy clark but also just crowl himself is a hell of an artist and he came up uh

you know with towns van zandt and a scene, you know, down there in, uh, in Nashville and Townes Van Zandt's another one that the, uh, I came too late, but is it late? And it's heavy for me. Townes is heavy, man. I can, I can hear the weight of the world in his voice and sometimes I can't take it. But, you know, he also, uh, Crowell, he has a relationship with Willie and was married to Roseanne Cash and, hey, it's just, there's a history there. And ever since I watched that Ken Bernstock on country music, it gave me the arcing context. And I still buy a lot of country records, a lot of old country records. I just bought a record of Bobby Gentry and Glenn Campbell together. And it's great. There's always things revealing themselves coming down the pike. And it was great because Rodney actually was playing down the street from me the night that I talked to him.

Or maybe the day after. And I got to see him do his thing, sing his songs in an intimate space. And it was kind of great. The Chicago Sessions is Rodney's new record. It's produced by Jeff Tweedy. You can get it wherever you get your music. And this is me talking to Rodney Crowell. What's your primary guitar now? My primary guitar is a 1932 Gibson L00. Is that a smaller body acoustic? It's a 12 fret.

Oh, wow. 12 fret acoustic. They call them tuxedos. Okay. White pickguard. How old is it? It's 91 years old. Wow.

Yeah. And I play it every night. Yeah? Where'd you pick that up? Did you get it at that big place? What's that place called? No, no, a gift. Oh.

It was a gift from my buddy Sterling Ball. Uh-huh. Ernie Ball Strings and Music Man Guitars. Oh, yeah? He's my good friend. His son was getting married okay so i came out to sing a song at his son's wedding yeah and it was he was a godfather he was in a tuxedo and i was telling him about this uh 34 l double o uh 14 fret that i tried to steal.

I tried to buy. I tried to shame this producer in Nashville to giving me the guitar. Yeah. And so I was giving this sob story to my friend Sterling about, you know, man, I tried to buy it, offered him $10,000. Yeah.

So he got up and left. Yeah. And came back in the room with this 12 fret. Oh, my God. Handed it to me and said, shut up. That's a big day. It was. It was a godfather moment, you know.

It's like. And that's the guitar. It is. You know, the thing is about guitars and me, all the guitars I play were given to me. Right. That's what you try to do, right? It wasn't intentional.

I was working with this guitar player. Yeah. And, oh, he plays guitar with this guy. Yeah. So he offered me $10,000 for the 62 Strat that I had that Marty Stewart gave to me. Oh, yeah. Well, I bought it off Marty Stewart for nearly nothing. Yeah.

And so I was working, and this guitar player said, you know, God, I don't have a Strat. I love this. I'll tell you. Dominic Miller, he plays guitar with Sting. Okay. And we were working on a Beth Nielsen Chapman record, and he said, can I borrow a Strat?

And I said, I got one. Yeah. So I, in the middle of the sessions, he came to me and he said, I'll give you 10 grand for this guitar right now. And I said, man, a guitar's not for sale. Yeah. I said, I can't sell it to you but i knew then that i was going to give him the guitar yeah yeah so i waited an hour or so and and uh

and i said you know i can't i can't sell this guitar i said yeah but i can give it to you yeah and so i did and he said man every time you see me with Sting, I'll be playing it. And almost every time there's television or something, he's playing the guitar. But the point is, after I gave that guitar to him, suddenly people started giving me guitars. Magic. It was just magic. It was like a wartime Gibson J45. Oh, come on. Yeah, 1942, big baseball neck.

Yeah. Vince Gill gave me a 37 L00 that I don't even know where it came from. Just influx of guitars that were given to me. You've worked with Vince a long time on a lot of stuff, right? Well, we go way back. Yeah. We go back to when we were both living out here. Was he always an amazing guitar player? Because now he's like

a transcendent guitar player. Yeah, he was always an amazing guitar player. It's kind of interesting about some of those guys, because like, look, you know, I'll be honest, like, I had been sent a couple of your records, you know, a couple years ago, some of the later records, and

but for the most part my in terms of country you know like I realize it's about jazz too if you don't grow up with it and it's not

in your house all the time and I grew up in New Mexico it was around but it was not how my parents were geared or my family was geared like I have the old standbys

like I got a lot of them you know George Jones and I got you know I've got all I've I got, you know, I've got Patsy's records, I've got some Bobby Gentry records, all those, you know,

all the basics. But there's a chunk of time you know, post I guess 72, 73, you know, after Willie and Waylon kind of break it open a little bit, right, where you kind of come in and fill out sort of what becomes modern country, right? Yeah, I suppose you'd call it modern country.

Yeah, that started to happen around 72. Because I saw you, I was at Willie's 90th. And when you came out and did two songs, I mean, for me, it was like the highlight of the night. And I'm saying like, I got that guy's records. Now, how does he fit in? That's really where it starts for me. So now I had to kind of do this thing where I'm like, I got to go through the whole Rodney Crowell arc. You got to dive Rodney Crowell.

Yeah. Yeah, well, I've done it it's a thankless job but what's interesting to me though is that you know coming like was there a point

at the beginning you know when you when you start writing songs also I want to ask you about that because you know I play and people ask me if I write all the time

and I don't even know where to start with that I mean I know how to write a poem, I guess. But you grew up in Texas? Mm-hmm. And what was the stuff that was getting you going? Well, first of all, my father was what we call a local singer.

Yeah, yeah. A local band. What now we call local singer. Yeah, yeah. Local band. What now we call local bands. Back then, he was in East Houston, played the Ice Houses and the Honky Tonks on the east side of Houston.

Guitar player? Guitar player and a singer. Better singer than me, my father. Yeah. But, you know, a real child of the Depression era and disentitled

and it's like, well, I can't have a career career right and and he did not write songs yeah um but god he knew but he had a wealth of knowledge of songs and somehow he was a savan i suppose because he grew up on a on a sharecropped farm in western kentucky uh-huh and it would be saturday night he'd have to walk to a neighboring farmer's place who had a Drossel radio and listen to the Grand Ole Opry. But he could hear a song once or twice and have it. But what were the songs that were in his repertoire?

I mean, is it going back like Carter family stuff? It was Carter family stuff. Jimmy Rogers? Some Jimmy Rogers. Yeah. But it was more late Hank Williams. Hank Williams was...

You were talking about Keith Richards. In my childhood, Hank Williams was Keith Richards. And we had 78s at the house, and when I was four, I think, I kind of got a little record player on the floor in these 78s out of the dust sleeve,

and I could play Hank Williams. And I would amuse myself playing Hank Williams way back there. And in fact, my dad took me to see Hank Williams when I was two years and four months old. Yeah. And I wrote about it in this memoir. Yeah. Now, I really do have a memory of Eddie of cool air coming down from overhead, and I have a memory of my father's wild root cream oil that he had in his hair.

Yeah. But the rest of the memory was his that he would impress upon me, which was always, hey, never forget that I took you to see the hillbilly Shakespeare. And he drove it home. Yeah. How was the show? What I remember of it was smell. Yeah.

And Eddie of Cool Air. Yeah. But I wrote about it and stole his memory. Okay. You know, and wrote about it and stole his memory okay you know and wrote about it but i think given my mother who both my parents were uneducated they were seventh grade education yeah maybe my mother made eighth grade but but they were smart yeah and uh my mother played with words um she just would make stuff up.

Right. Just rhyme stuff. Yeah. And my father just knew a million songs. Yeah. And so it seems like I was destined to be a songwriter if I think about it. So the house was full of it. The house was full of music.

Yeah. And made-up music and church music. Yeah. up music and church music. Yeah. And my favorite aunt, when we'd go see her up in Kentucky, those who could play would play and sing, and those who couldn't, they'd just move the furniture out of the way and dance. Yeah.

So I come from a culture of people who like to dance. Uh-huh. Dance to music that we were playing on acoustic instruments. And maybe somebody would have spoons and play spoons. Well, it's interesting, the communal aspect of it, because it really feels to me when I see stuff and I hear stuff of that era that there was a real sense of relief and ecstasy from whatever situation people were living in by doing those kind of group music situations.

Yeah, I suppose. Really, when you don't have anything else. Yeah. When all you got to look forward to is getting some seeds in the ground and growing something and hoping for the best. Yeah. And then when somebody might have a dry cell radio

five miles down the road, you can pick up the Grand Ole Opry. That was the culture that really country music came from. Yeah. And when did you start writing songs? Well, good ones. No, I mean anything. I mean, like, it's so weird because when you listen to Hank Williams, the sort of simplicity and perfection of most of his songs, it's kind of daunting because there's part of you that thinks like, well,

I can do that, right? Well, you have to remember as a songwriter, I have to cut myself some slack because in 1947, 1948, when Hank Williams started writing those songs, the very simple love songs was still new, especially in that Southern culture, that country culture. So he was like that. I'm so lonesome I could cry or, you know, you're cheating hard. Yeah. That was new. By the time the early 70s came around, Bob Dylan had been around and Chris Dofferson, it was that simple song had already been done. And it was a different thing.

Well, that's interesting. So you're saying like that previous to Hank, there were themes, but they weren't innately personal in a way. I would say they're more broad stroke. It's broad stroke simple. It's like, today I passed you on the street and my heart fell at your feet. Sure. Almost a pop song. Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's going to be hard to get a song started with that line now or a line that's simple.

They're out there, but you've got to work to get them. But a lot of the traditional country that your dad grew up with was, some of it was spiritual, some of it was, you know, almost, I imagine some of that stuff almost seemed like it had like a English or Celtic folk songy kind of element to it. And it feels like that Hank kind of made it almost teeny bopper music in a way. Well, he made it sexy. Yeah. I mean, just by his stance. Yeah. You know, to me, that's why I say he was the first Keith Richard kind of rock and roll star come out of country music.

And he lived it. Because he was lascivious, you know, and he was dangerous. Menacing. Yeah, he was menacing. And, you know, one of the things about the culture where my parents came from that influenced me way back there is ghost stories. came from that influenced me way back there is ghost stories and really beyond reality was a big thing. The church was so much about beyond reality. A little guy, a red guy with a sharp tail and a pitchfork.

Sure. Songs about that. Right. If you're not careful, that guy's going to come get you. And he believed it. Yeah. Well, a lot of people did. I never did, but I come from people who still.

Sure. And when do you start kind of becoming aware of the task? I got to Nashville in 1972, and I got there. I'd already started writing songs, but there weren't any good ones. I hadn't written any good songs. They were really sophomoric and hadn't gotten there yet. But when I landed in Nashville, I bumped into a songwriting salon, really, that Guy Clark and Townes Van Zandt, and this was post, when Chris Christopherson made poetry, or the quote-unquote poet popular in Nashville at the time, because it had, I mean, he sort of gave Nashville what Dylan had given the rest of the world.

So by the time I got there, songwriters were gathering around in Nashville because it was like, hey, you can kind of chase that poetic side of things if you got an intuition or an inkling of how to do it and you can make a living here. And so, but that was almost like, I was thinking today that around the same time that everything changed in movies, you know, from old Hollywood to Easy Rider, this is around that same time. Yeah.

Right? Cultural shift. Yeah. And so when you're hanging out with Townes and Guy, I mean, were you aware, was there a sort of traditional country bearing down on you? Well, I got to hang with those guys. My songs weren't good enough, and I was smart enough to not try to send my songs out there. But I knew Appalachian Dead Baby songs, and I knew these traditional great old country songs that I learned from my father.

May I sleep in your bed tonight. Or may I sleep in your barn tonight. And in the circle when it would come around to me, I could pull out one of those songs and hang in the circle for a minute because the authenticity of what I knew kept me on a spot there where I could learn more from these guys because that's when I first, you know, Towne sat there and, you know, gave

me a lesson in songwriting when he played Poncho and Lefty. So he had that already in 72? It was about end of 72, the first time he played me that song. Oh, my God. And how did you react? Well, the way I reacted is, oh, this is what you have to do. Yeah. If you're going to hang and if you're going to be worth your weight here,

this is what you got to do. And had he been, were people recording his stuff already? Not so. He was more the rambling, gambling folk singer who would come into town. And Guy Clark was the curator of this kind of Paris in the 20s kind of thing. Sure. Happening in Nashville. And Guy was a curator, and he and Townes were good friends.

But Townes was out on the road, would come in back into Nashville and kick his heroin habit for a while. And then when he would come down finally, and all the songwriters would be sitting there with their guitars on their lap and stuff waiting for Townes to come down. Meanwhile, we've been playing each other our kind of mediocre songs. Except for Guy, he was playing L.A. Freeway and good stuff. Then Townes would come down and kind of straighten out and lay something on us.

And it was like, oh, shit. Okay. And you know what? That's how I learned. I mean, I had a background from my father and my mother, from the culture I came from. So I was a born songwriter. I own that.

But being around those guys, it was like, ah. That's it. This is what I want to do. For me, when I want to do for me like when I listen to Townes the weight of his spirit is sometimes

too much for me even to take you know if you know what I mean yeah I think I do you know like the songs are what they are

and some of them are pretty heavy hearted yeah but you know on different records you can hear it in his voice

that the sadness is real. Sadness is real. But there are times when he would have levity, and it was as if the songs, the writing, just grew out of the ground or dropped down from somewhere in the ether. Wasn't that kind of how it happens in general? I mean, I saw Dylan, you know, that famous interview where Ed Bradley's grilling him. It's like, well, you know, he once wrote, you know, these, I don't even remember what his examples were, you know. It's all right, mom, I'm only bleeding.

You take your pick. Right. Well, Bradley says, like, you know, do you think you could write those again? And he's like, no. And Dylan says, I don't know where that came from. I couldn't write again. And I'm paraphrasing. Bradley goes, well, do you want to?

And he's like, I did it once. You know what I mean? I'm sure he wants to. Sure. Who wouldn't want to? Any writer wants to. Sure. Who wouldn't want to? Any writer wants to. But there's something I've given consideration to, which is I wrote some songs in my early 20s that were like Till I Gain Control Again

or I Ain't Living Long Like This. Those are great songs. Those are great. There were a handful of songs that I wrote in my early 20s that were sort of like capturing lightning in a bottle. Yeah. And in as much as my talent was able to translate whatever that was. Yeah.

Where in the case of Bob Dylan, he was writing, you know, It's All Right, Mom, I'm Only Bleeding, or Mr. Tambourine Man, or all that brilliant stuff. Yeah, yeah. or Mr. Tambourine Man or all that brilliant stuff. But that early 20s bolt of lightning that comes down, it's if you stay in the game long enough, you've got to learn how to do it. It's where that kind of inspiration is a gift from on high, and then if you stay in the game, you've got to learn how to, through hard work, to muster up that kind of inspiration. So it's like, you know, in the songwriting game for me is what's happened is that I've had to, I have to earn my inspiration now by getting up every day and going back to work. So when you're younger, I guess it's the same with what I do with stand-up or anything else. that, you know, you just kind of, all you're doing is walking around with a notebook, and you're waiting.

Or, you know, you're writing anything that comes into your head, and you don't even know where it fits in, right? Yep. I mean, do songs come to you in completion, or are there bits and pieces? They have come to me fully formed. It's rare, but a few have come fully formed. A lot of, you know, early on in the game, I wrote three-quarters of a song several times. One of my biggest ones was Shame on the Moon,

a Bob Seger record. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. The last verse on that song was terrible. And it still is. You know, I spent. That was a big hit for you, wasn't it? I know, but I spent the last 45 years or whatever trying to fix that last verse. And so much so that I just rewrote the whole song kept the chorus and

then threw out the read so so you do a new version of it yeah yeah it's the last verse did not work now i i when i talked to bob about that he said no man it's a good verse it's a good verse but another songwriter who recorded it who who's gone, a guy named Mac Davis. He's not here anymore. From Lubbock. Yeah, from Lubbock. He recorded it, and I bumped into him at some kind of affair. And he said, hey, Rodney, I recorded your song.

I sure wish I would have been there to help you with that last verse. And I know he was taking it out of me, right? But I just grabbed him and hugged him. And I said, finally, somebody out of me, right? But I just grabbed him and hugged him, and I said, finally, somebody who knows that that last verse stinks. Did he get a hit out of it? No, no, Seeger had the hit. What Mac Davis album was that?

I remember his hits, Baby, Baby, Don't Get Hooked on Me. Yeah, yeah. Lubbock and My Rearview Mirror was his song. Did he write those? Oh, yeah. He was very, he wrote a lot of songs. Yeah. Now, how did that work, like, when you got there? Because, like, now, when you guys were sitting around,

did you ask each other for tags, for lines, or hooks, or, you know, help on things? Or wasn't it that kind of thing where you just competed? Well, certainly with the early days when probably the most generous songwriter I've ever been around was Guy Clark. And he just was welcome to conversation. What Guy would do, he'd say, come over. You got a new song yeah he said now put the guitar down look me in the eye yeah and tell me the words huh your song yeah and he said i'd do it and those the time when i'd have to look away because he had these like piercing eyes yeah

it's like when i would i couldn't look him in the eye and deliver a line. I knew that line had to go. And it was a very generous thing to do, but it was also really daunting. Because in that moment you realized it wasn't honest? It wasn't honest. Oh, man. And even if, it doesn't all have to be honest, but if you got three lines, three good lines, and then a fourth line that's not a good line that you're just cobbling together it's kind of lazy i guess lazy yeah bad writing right you you say it to somebody look them in the eye if you really respect who they are it's like man you know you don't want to you know

subconsciously or even consciously you know you know you're trying to whistle in past the graveyard with a bad line. Yeah. And that was such a generous thing to have as I was forming as a songwriter. What it led to is self-editing. And so is there a point, though, where, because look, man, I mean, you've made a lot of records. Look, man, I mean, you've made a lot of records. And I know, the one thing I know, like, the more I buy country records is that country guys make a lot of records. You know, I mean, but like, you know, like, there's no end.

Like, you know, every so often I'll go, what is this Willie Nelson record? Yeah. When did this happen? It's kind of astounding. Well, yeah, he stopped off in Abilene and made a record. Same with Wayland. There's a million Wayland Jennings records.

Maybe that's as it should be. Well, probably, interestingly, Johnny Cash was a great songwriter but he became super super famous as you know and so he was so busy being who he was he didn't write songs anymore well that's what i was going to ask you so i so because like you made all these records and clearly you know you were gunning for something as a performer but it seems that you know your your songs were so frequently covered and and and uh revered and to the point where people were like i'm gonna record that

rodney crowl song now is there a point where you're sort of like you feel like as a performer you're kind of like, was anyone noticing this? Yeah, last night. Because when I saw you, I was like, holy shit, this is the high point of the night. Yeah. Well, it's interesting about me in some ways because, and here's what I know about me, is I developed as a songwriter really far ahead of singer. I really, I didn't like the sound of my voice until I was 50 years old. And I made, you know, I made some hit records in my 30s.

And I can't listen to them. I don't like the sound of that guy. But do you like the songs? Yes. You know what's weird about, you know, like, I think probably one of your biggest records is it's hard to find. Diamonds and Dirt? Yeah. Diamonds and Dirt.

It's like, I can't find it. I mean, I can't find it on Apple Music. It's like the only one. And it's your, it's like, I think it's probably your biggest record, right? Biggest selling record. It's not my best record. Right. But I mean, but there were like four or five hits on there. Yeah, well, there's five number one songs on that thing. That's crazy.

By me. Interesting, at the time, I had 15 Minutes of Stardom, you know, and at that particular time. With that record? Yeah. 1988. Yeah, I wasn't ready. Really, I wasn't ready. And it was okay with me. I noticed that, you know, for instance, when you get out there and you get some hit records in the country field, then you got to show up at 7 a.m. with the local radio to the chipper, chipper, chipper.

Sell those tickets. Everything's going really fast. Yeah, comics do it too. Yeah. And I would wander in, you know, kind of glazed over. Sure, of course. I don't want to be doing it. You know, it's like I don't do this fast-paced shit. Oh, so you didn't know how to sell. Sure, of course. I don't want to be doing it. You know, it's like,

I don't do this fast-paced shit. Oh, so you didn't know how to sell. Yeah, yeah. I'm not a, you know, I didn't know how to sell. And it's like, I didn't want to be there. I like to write songs.

I like to perform. I love music. This is what I do. Yeah. And you know what? All of those disc jockeys, they got to look at me pretty quickly and said, this guy didn't want to be here.

Oh, yeah. He's no help. Yeah, that's right. All they know is just sort of like, is this going to be a pain in the ass? Is he going to ruin our momentum? True. And you know what? I would ruin their momentum.

And, you know, for a while there, I was like, hey, what's wrong with these people? Don't they understand I'm an artist? Yeah. And then later on, as time went on, I started to go, oh, my God. I was no help to those guys. They're just trying to do their job. And I walk in, and I'm all grumpy and snobby about, hey, this is all beneath me. You know, it's like, because I loved Bob Dylan, and I loved all these great artists who didn't have to do that stuff.

I know what you mean, man. You know, but I had to do it if I was going to be a big player on that level. Yeah. And luckily for me, I made a good living as a songwriter. And all of those songs that were covered by other people, there were a lot of them. I can honestly say the only time that I ever wrote a song for somebody, twice I did it once for emmy lou

and once for somebody else jewel yeah well i wrote a song with jewel it was fun fun writing songs with jewel but but the all the songs that worked that got a job out there, I just wrote them to write the song. For you? Yeah. Well, just for the song. It's like the real, to me, the real act of songwriting is it's not for Rodney. It's not for you. It's like, what does the song want to be?

Right. And I have people come to my songwriting workshops, and I always tell them, I said, look, the whole key to this thing is learning to let the song tell you what it wants to be, not for you to tell it what it wants to be. But that's my theory about it. Because it reveals itself to you. Yeah. If I'm patient enough, a song will tell me what it wants to be. I'll find the right words, and I'll find the right, the melody happens more quickly for me than the language does.

Yeah, that seems to be the trickiest thing, you know, if I'm to think about it. You know, I'm not a great singer, but I mean, melody seems tricky because, I mean, in country, I mean, how many chords are you really using? Four or five? Well, yeah, you can use more. I mean, I come from the country, man, but I got some songs with 10 or 12 chords in them. I'm uptown. But I mean, but a lot of them, they are, look, I'm a blues guy and a rock guy. But I mean, the basicness, that's the amazing thing is that, you know, this is the people's music here.

So, you know, you don't even have to be a good musician to necessarily make an amazing song. No kidding. Right. No kidding. Right? Well, you know, the very best of Hank Williams and the very best of Howlin' Wolf is three chords.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And they're the same three chords. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And they're the same three chords, really, just with a different tone. Just a different way of doing it. Yeah. Yeah. So how you find melody that is unique within that

is kind of a miracle. You know, anybody, to find a unique melody within this sort of eternal three-chord process, within a major or minor pentatonic. That seems like the hard part. Not for you, huh? I don't know. I guess it's just intuition or just what I was born to do.

I mean, being born in 1950 into the family I was born into, the real old-fashioned country music. And then I came of age in 1963. You know, girls and social. And there were the Beatles, and there was Dylan coming right on that. And then right on the tail of my being completely consumed with the Beatles and completely consumed with Bob Dylan in like 64, 65, right around the same time, Merle Haggard in 1965.

So I was drawn to Merle Haggard as strongly as I was drawn to Bob Dylan. Isn't that wild? Yeah. Because what's appealing to them is that if they're resonating some sort of truth, Truth. You know, because Merle is

certainly kind of a rugged truth there. I mean, you know, Dylan was sort of a trickster, but it was there in the poetry. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was dazzling. Yeah. To me, it was dazzling.

But some people I talk to, they think that, you know, leaving Louisiana in the broad daylight is like the best country song ever. Well, it's unique in that sense. If you analyze the song, interestingly so. The opening line, Mary took to running with a traveling man. I wrote that up in Laurel Canyon, and I was making a record with Mary Kay Place when she was on the old— Oh, Mary Hart, Mary Hart. She's a country singer. Yeah, she's a country singer.

Right. We were making a record with her, and we were—the session was over. It was late at night. We were up in Coldwater Canyon, and we were talking, and Mary Kay would come. She would just string lines together. She's almost like a savant poet in a way. And so the Mary Took a Run in with a Traveling Man, the whole tumbling language that happened with that song came from Mary Kay. And the Mary took a run and was Mary.

Oh, wow. So I've always, you know, owe that song to Mary Kay Place. Wild. That's the interesting thing about the evolution of, I think, country music during your lifetime is that, you know, there was a push to make it more broadly popular, I think. But then, because I can see in some of your records that the style of production that was going on and what was sort of the thing to do in the 80s, mid-80s, late 80s, it's very different. It kind of gets in the way of authenticity sometimes.

Yeah, yeah. I suppose you're right about that. It's like the 80s was a pretentious decade, really. A lot of coke. Yeah, a lot of coke and a lot of pretension. And look, I was guilty of pretension. I had those haircuts and those shirts. They're right on the cover of your records.

Yeah, yeah. As a matter of fact, that— I don't know if it's pretentious as much as it is a little goofy. You know, it's like diamonds in dirt. Yeah. There's a picture of me on the cover of that album, and I wrote a song about it. Actually, it was dinnertime around the house, and I went over. I was going to put on Booker T or something yeah and i pulled out diamonds and dirt and i'm looked down and there

i am yeah with a wife beater t-shirt on with a bolo tie and a and a levi jacket and yeah skin tight jeans yeah toe tip boots yeah you know and and i looked at it closely and i went this guy's walking down a dirt road. You don't dress like that to walk down a dirt road. I thought it was the most pretentious thing. Is that the song? Did you do a video from one of those songs? Was that the album where you're out in the middle of nowhere?

Of course, of course. Yeah, we drove it into the ground. But I turned the album to my wife, Claudia, across the way, and I said, pose her? And she said, well, I'm sorry, but yeah. You were just doing what everyone else was doing. That was the way people dress. You got the skinny tie and the sports jacket.

I went back in the back of the house after that and wrote this song called I Don't Care Anymore, which took care of that. Because when I listened to those songs he did with Willie that night, which ones of yours did he do, did he record? Several. Yeah. But one of them that I did that he did that i sang that night till i gained control again what that song like you know i listened to a couple versions of it and it's like you know i don't to something because that can mean so much so there's something

about the language of of the idea of until i can because like you get to a certain age and you're thinking like, well, he had a stroke. Well, yeah, that could happen. Right, right. And then like if you look at it another way, it's sort of like. So you're saying it's timeless? Kind of. It's timeless in the sense that like

until I gain control can mean anything. Yeah. It could be money, it could be drugs, it could be booze, it could be health. Yeah. It could be, you know, sanity. It could be trying to write a good song. Ah, yeah.

It could be trying to seduce a girl. Yeah. That particular term, I'm pretty sure it was trying to seduce a girl. Oh, yeah? When did you write it? Well, sensitive language, you know. Yeah, sure. Sure.

And so, but that, the element of songwriting that makes a timeless song, and I think that there seems to be a theme with you a little bit, is that no matter what you go through, you're going to end up in your own skin for better or for worse. Sadly. Right. And maybe you'll go through something again. Maybe you won't.

Yeah. Yeah. Right? I won't. Yeah. Yeah. Right? I may learn. Yeah. Now, were these themes that you found just in your life? Because it seems like country music deals with some of this stuff. But I don't know that it did previous to Hank what we're talking about now.

it did previous to Hank, what we're talking about now. But this sort of self-awareness of problems and obstacles and, you know, whether they're love or money or whatever, but there's the self-awareness of sort of, you know, realizing like, well, here I am and I did this. And, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, Chris Christopherson was really, I think he brought on some of that looking at yourself. Because Chris brought the bedroom into country music.

Like Sunday morning coming down, that kind of stuff? Yeah. But also, you know, help me make it through the night. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which, look, straight up, I would have never written till I gained control again if I had not sung Help Me Make It Through the Night like a thousand times at the Holiday Inn.

Yeah. Right. So, and Christofferson was like, you know, there are these guys like, there's like a profound, like I guess what you said earlier is kind of true

is that like, you know, with guys like Townes and with Chris is that, you know, guys like you know towns and with chris is that you know you had something that resembled you know real poetry that there was a a a minimal language that could carry a lot of weight like leonard cohen right yeah i mean you look at his all his stuff is lean stuff man yeah well it is lean but it's so beautifully written that it's timelessly heavy. That's the trick, right?

Yeah. I mean, to me, I wasn't such a Leonard Cohen fan early on. Me neither. But the end of his, the last three or four records he made, starting with Waiting for the Miracle. Yeah. Came on a live, I had a live recording. It's like suddenly Leonard Cohen just grabbed me by the collar and said, listen up, son. Right.

And it's like he left breadcrumbs. Right. To me. And Dylan always has left breadcrumbs as far as I'm concerned. But I think Leonard Cohen may have reached the pinnacle of it. It's an opposite approach lyrically,

in a way. I mean, it seems to me, well, there's a lot of fairly simple, perfect Dylan songs. But Cohen never wavered. He was never about fireworks, right? No. Whereas Dylan, he'd mash up a million words,

and you were just sort of entertained by the flow of the thing. And then he'd put out like blood on the tracks, and they'd be like, oh, fuck. Yeah, right. This is some pure stuff. Well, yeah, I used to to care but things have changed you know when i you know that movie wonder boys uh-huh sitting through a movie and then that piece of music comes on and i go god there it is again yeah one more time do you still do you do you

use these guys to beat yourself up with no no you can't no man, man, it's inspiration. I don't want to, as I always say this, I don't want to be like Bob Dylan or Hank Williams or anything, but I do want to access what they accessed. place where that inspiration comes from or the creativity comes from. Whatever my wiring in and whatever I'm able to make out of it is what I'm going to make out of it. And I can't compare what I do to what Leonard Cohen did. But what I can do is look at Leonard Cohen's work with so much admiration to say, I don't want to do that, but I want to do my version of that. And when you look at your catalog, you know, which are the ones where you're like, I nailed that one? Oh, I started like 2001 when I made the Houston Kid. That seems like to be the beginning of some sort of mature wisdom thing.

That was when I felt like I'd be. Until then, I felt I was a songwriter. Yeah. At that particular point, I became a recording artist. And I stand by it. The work that I've done, you know, there's one or two duds in the last 20 years, but for the most part, my output has been pretty consistent, starting with the Houston Kid. And it seemed like you had a little more control of the production, maybe?

I had more control of my voice. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't like the sound of my voice until I was 50. And what changed? I lived in it. My voice got lived in long enough to have some bottom and some gravitas, really. Because I would hear it. My father had a beautiful singing voice and my mother squawked. And I think until I was about 50, when I would sing, I'd hear my mother's voice. my mother squawked. Yeah. And I think until I was about 50 when I would sing, I'd hear my mother's voice. Yeah. And it wasn't pretty. Yeah.

You know? And what about like, so you were with Roseanne for a while. Yeah. Cash. 13 years. And you guys are still friends? Good friends, yeah. Yeah.

And you worked with Emmylou a lot. A lot, yeah. And when you work with these women in country music, and two big ones, and they would do your songs or you would produce, you know, Roseanne's records, you know, did that inform you in any way in terms of some other part of yourself? Yeah, yeah. I think it would go back. My first relationship with a woman was Susanna Clark, guy's wife. It wasn't a romantic relationship, but early on in the kind of songwriting salon that i told you about suzanna was around and she'd pull me aside and and she had some wisdom and she was 11 years older than

me i think and and uh and of course i started coming on to her you know like it's what you do and she said she'd hold her hand out and say stop'm going to teach you how to be friends with a woman. Yeah. What? Yeah. And she did. And so, therefore, when Emmy Lou and I became so tight and I knew how to be friends with a woman. Okay.

And she was just coming off of, had Graham died? Mm-hmm. It wasn't long after Graham had died that our paths intersected. Uh-huh. And what, because she's an interesting artist because, you know, it's that voice, right? Mm-hmm. And when she, when you guys started hanging out, like, what was the foundation of that relationship? Did she gravitate towards your music?

Yeah, I think the only real reason that I became a member of the hot band, that original Emmylou, that was a hot band, was because I had a relationship with Emmi that was about songs. Yeah. About, we wrote some songs together early on. But our conversation was all about songs. And we would just sit and play. And I knew all the old Leuven Brothers songs. Okay, yeah. Those harmonies.

In truth, the relationship that she had had with Graham that was taken away from her, we kind of had the same relationship as what she told me about the way she and Graham got on is Graham taught her songs and introduced songs. And that's mainly what happened with Amy Lou and I. I wrote songs that she was recording, but also it's like we sat around, and when she recorded Poncho and Lefty, I said, hey, you ever know this song? And she said, oh, yeah, I used to hear Towne sing it.

And then the next thing you know, she's recording it, or Blue Kentucky Girl, these songs that were just conversations. What was the one, yours she did, Bluebird, was it? Blue Kentucky Girl. Uh-huh. These songs that were just conversations. What was the one, yours she did, Bluebird, was it? Bluebird One. Yeah, Bluebird One. Yeah, yeah. She was, that was one of the first ones.

And thank God, Emmylou, I mean, besides being my lifelong friend or adult friend. Yeah. She started recording my songs. My career as a songwriter, Emmylou's the one that really kicked it off because her records were known and some people looked down there and saw that little name that said, who's this Rodney Crowell guy? And they went looking for the songs and people started recording my songs.

Crystal Gale recorded, what did she make a hit? Till I Gained Control Again, yeah. How'd you meet Roseanne? Oh, Emmy Lou and I were at Waylon Jennings' house. How was that, fun? It was fun. It was a gathering at Waylon's house because Emmy was new, just breaking open, and I was her pal,

and I traveled around with her and we would sing duets yeah it was like well you're going to waylon's house so emmy and i'll go and we'll sing a couple of living brother songs and and uh yeah and that night that that one night roseanne was very shy back then yeah i noticed her and i her, and I remembered her, and that was in Nashville. But we both lived out here in Los Angeles. And she came to my 27th birthday party that somebody threw. And from then on, we were kind of connected. Right.

Yeah. And then she asked me to produce. I wasn't a producer. But she had heard a bunch of demos that I made. And she said, I want you to produce this record that I'm going to make for this German record company. Yeah. Which I did. It came out in Germany.

And then Columbia signed her here. And they just hired me to produce her here. And how was that for you? It was fun. Yeah. It was painting by numbers. I didn't know what I was doing. Sure.

We were just making it up as we went. And she had a couple of hits, right? She had a bunch of hits. Yeah. That must have been exciting. Yeah. And like, and those Wayland records from the early 70s when he broke away, was that around the time that you guys were hanging out? Yeah, this would have been around 76.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I remember I was in Nashville recording with Guy Clark, and Waylon came around, and he had heard I Ain't Living Long Like This, that song, and he said, Hoss, you got any plans for that song? Yeah. And I said, well, it's on my album. I said, I Ain't Living Long Like This, that song. And he said, Hoss, you got any plans for that song? And I said, well, it's on my album.

I said, I don't know. He said, you going to put it out? And I said, well, it's out. And he said, I'm recording it. I'm going to make you a number one. And he did. And so did you maintain relationships with these guys through your whole life? Yeah, I did.

Waylon and I fell out with each other accidentally. Over what? Over a road manager. Wow. We straightened it out because it wasn't. Yeah. But also, I got fired from producing a Waylon album before I actually got started because the head of RCA wanted me to produce Waylon. Yeah.

So we went over to Waylon's house to have a meeting. Yeah. And both of us at the time were imbibing separate of each other on the white stuff. Oh, yeah. Never good. No, it wasn't good. And so the head of the record label wanted to change Waylon's direction.

He wanted me to do it. So I come waltzing in. Well, man, we're going to get a new rhythm section. And he looked at me and he said, Son, get out of my house. I drove home. And that was it? I drove.

I said, oh, God, how stupid, how stupid could I be? Yeah. Yeah, I let a record company guy make a fool out of me. And Willie, you're friends with? Uh-huh, yeah. I had his son in here and he was pretty great. Lucas. Yeah, I've never talented

boy yeah lucas and i've written a couple of songs together yeah yeah and what was it like writing for johnny um well as you know i never wrote for anybody yeah but i you know because he knew i was around and he knew my songs. He would just pick one and record it. It was more about, it was an interesting time in my life when I came into that family, that giant of a man, the man in black. It was kind of cute, I think, and I think he was bemused at me coming around, you know, kind of drunken, trying to muster enough swagger to say,

I'm my own man. I might be married to your daughter, but I'm my own man. I need for you to respect me. And he just kind of looking like, oh, God. Another one. Give me a break. Yeah.

How many of your songs did he cover? I don't know. I don't know, man. I haven't thought about it. Four or five. Yeah. That must be an amazing feeling. Yeah.

Most of the time to hear. Yeah, of course. I mean, you like singing your songs, but to hear somebody like Johnny Cash or Willie Nelson or Waylon. Yeah, exactly. Do those songs. Yeah. I can't even imagine what that feels like. It's a good thing.

I remember the two albums I think that kind of defined the shift in Waylon was at Honky Tonk Heroes and This Time. This Time is my favorite record of his, I think. I love that record. I think he did that at Willie's place. Yeah. Yeah, well, Honky Tonk Heroes was a big one for me. Yeah. You know, to hear it and think, oh, yeah, there's freedom in here somewhere.

Right. But it seems to me that, like you said, with your records, like the Houston Kid, that began the run. Like, did you find any inspiration in what Rick Rubin did with Johnny? Oh, yeah. Did you find any inspiration in what Rick Rubin did with Johnny? Oh, yeah. Because that seemed to be the way for what coming into your own voice at a certain age can look like. Yeah, well, that's a gift from on high for John at the time. Because interesting thing about, I think maybe one of the best things I learned from Mr. Cash was the old Circle Star Theater up in Daly City going into San Francisco.

Yeah. I was up there like 1980, gosh, I don't remember exactly. No, 79. He was playing there with June and the Carter family. And it's like 1,500 seater. Yeah. It's circular. And there like 1,500 seater. Yeah. With, it's circular. And there might have been 300 people there.

Yeah. And it was a low point. And so I went up and I was thinking, oh, man, I was really feeling sorry for him. You know, and it's like, oh, this is surely embarrassing. Yeah. But when the show was over. Yeah. But when the show was over, the black limo pulled in. He got into the back of the limo

and sped away as if there were 30,000 people out there. Yeah. And I went, yeah. Yeah. That's the man right there. Yeah. And it just took Rick Rubin coming around, you know, finding him

and lighting a fire underneath that thing again. Yeah. It was a beautiful thing to watch. Yeah. And, God, so much good stuff came out of it. Yeah. Hurt is one of the best pieces of recording ever. Yeah.

It makes you cry every time. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. But it seems like, you know, when Dylan hooked up with Lenoir, that there was, you know, there was something happening for artists at a certain age where their voice as it stood in its full maturity and wisdom was elevated. Right?

Yeah. Like Time Out of Mind. I mean, what the fuck was that? I mean, it's a crazy record. And then even like I was listening to the record that you did. It's so close ties. Close ties, yeah. That's a great record.

Yeah, it's one of my favorites. You know, because you're up front. Yeah. And the music is just to kind of support what your voice is now and what your songs are now. Yeah. I just had kind of a similar experience going to Chicago and recording at Jeff Tweedy's studio. Well, how'd that come about? Because I wanted to talk about that up front, but it's a great record.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm proud of that record. It came about, I was driving home late one night. You know how when you drive home alone and there's no traffic and the car's dark it's best and the music comes comes in and it just it inhabits the inside of your car it's the best way to hear music sometimes i was driving home headlights yeah you know and in my own you know reverie and jeff comes on singing i know how it Feels to Not Be Loved from his album Warm. And it was on NPR.

And I said, they play that again? And so I immediately bought it, downloaded it, bought the record. I listened to it. We were on the Cayamo Cruise, a songwriter festival out on the high seas, and he was on it. And I saw him across the way. And I went over and I said, man, I said, you know, NPR sold me one of your records. Because I was a Wilco fan. Yeah, sure.

I had Wilco records. Did you have those Uncle Tupelo records? No, no. That was kind of a country outfit, really. No, I didn't. I wasn't aware of that at the time. Yeah. But then I became,

I loved Wilco, but then I became fixated on Jeff from that. And I listened to that record over and over and over again. And I told him on the cruise, I said, man, I love that record. He said, well, come to Chicago sometime and record. So one of my daughters is really involved in what I do, and we got in a conversation,

and it came up, and she said, Jeff Tweedy invited you to record at his studio. And I said, yeah, we was just being nice. Yeah. You know, she said, get your manager to call right now. Yeah. And I said, well, okay. Yeah. And lo and behold, it's like, yeah, let's make a record.

So, all right. You know, so off we go. I always wanted to record in Chicago for obvious reasons. Howlin' Wolf. Sure. You know, Chuck Berry. Yeah, Muddy Waters. Yeah, all of that. All that crew, yeah.

Everything that happened up there. The Rolling Stones were recording up there. And so off we go to make a record, and it was so much fun. How is it different? Because, like, I know he's got, like, you know, he's kind of a magical analog guy. Like, you know. Yeah, we were recording digital. Right.

But he has. I mean, in terms of equipment and how he. His equipment is, you know, for a collector. Right. Drool. And, you know, I took my main guitar up there, and I wound up playing all of his. Oh, yeah? Yeah, it's like, oh, God, he's, you know, God bless him, he's got some great guitar.

But as a producer, man, he was the right thing. Right thing, because he would never, he had no ego involved in how he works. He would just, you know, when something wasn't, he let us play. Yeah. As long as we were playing the song as it ought to go. It was good. He would come in, maybe play guitar with us. But then at that, you know, whenever he had hit a roadblock, he would just walk out there and say, okay, you know, maybe you want to do this, maybe you want to do that.

That simple. We do it. There it is. Was there something different about the environment? Were you guys playing? Because, like, it looks like the way he's got it set up, you can play as a band. Was that happening? It was all as a band.

Oh, that's good. Well, I'm singing on a walk-in in the studio. This is SM7 right here, these microphones. Yep. Well, I'm singing on a walk in the studio. This is SM7 right here, these microphones. And, you know, in Nashville, we have these tube, these 251s and M49s and these great tube microphones that we sing in. Yeah. And Tom Schick, the engineer, as I walk in, he said, I'm sitting down behind this SM7. There's a 251 across the way.

And I said, Tom, you're not going to put that mic on me. Yeah. And he said, no. And I said, why? He said, because the electric guitar is four feet, amp is four feet over there. Yeah. He said, this SM7 is going to bleed a lot less. Uh-huh. And that's everything on that record.

The only thing we overdubbed on that record was a few bits of background harmony, and Jeff put a banjo on one song. And that was it. Everything else is just live in the studio. And I'm at my best when I sing live. Yeah, because it's immediate, I guess. Yeah, well, it's the phrasing. It's like your phrase,

the music is happening, so the phrasing. If I get a track, when I produce my own records, oftentimes I'm listening to everybody else and not paying attention to what I'm doing and having to come back and sing later. Yeah.

I'm not any good at it. It's like I need to be leading the band to really get the best performance out of me. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. And then you chose, like, it's interesting because you did do a Towne song on there. I did, and that— A heavy one. Yeah, it is. Well, I think I told you earlier I was sitting with Townes early one morning, and I played him What Happened.

You know that scene in Bringing It All Back Home, or the Dylan movies in London? Yeah. And Donovan is on the floor playing a pretty weak song. Yeah. And he finishes it up and Dylan breaks into She Makes Love Just Like a Woman. Yeah, right. Breaks just like a little girl.

And it's like, oh God, he just slays the poor guy. Yeah, yeah. Well, that happened to me with Townes Van Zandt. With Poncho and Lefty? Well, I played this really shitty song

and Townes played Poncho and Lefty. Which slayed me. But then he also played No Place to Fall. And when we were, I was talking to Jeff, I said, you know, I've never recorded a Townes song and I want to record this song because I think I remember it exactly the way Townes played it for me in 1972. Wow.

Now, whether that's true or not, that's how we went at it. I said, I remember exactly how it sounded. You had the feeling. Yeah, and that's how I recorded it, like one take. It's great. And that's it. It's great. How did you choose the other songs on this new one?

A lot of them came from pandemic. Oh, yeah? I was holed up in my home studio, and the lockdown was great for me. Yeah. Because I just wrote songs and monkeyed around back there in my studio and recorded by myself. You didn't get sick? Oh, I got sick. Yeah.

I got plenty sick, but I got over it and got back. So maybe most of those songs were written during the lockdown pandemic, and some of them had been around a little while. Wilco record. But there are times where I could hear, there's one cut, I think, on the second side where he brings in a pretty menacing, muddy guitar. Oh, that's me. Oh, is it? That's great. That's me playing my guitar through a champ. You got one right there. Yeah, right, just breaking it up.

Actually, that was Tom Schick, the engineer. Oh, yeah? I was monkeying around with playing that guitar part, and Tom comes out, and he tweaks the amp. Yeah. And I said, that's a little heavier than I normally get. And he says, yeah, it sounds great. So, you know, I'm pretty proud of that. It's great, man.

Yeah, it's like I never went that heavy before. It's time, man. Yeah, it was time. Yeah. So now what are you doing now? Are you just on the road? I'm on the road. A lot?

Yeah. Well, I'm in your neighborhood tomorrow night. I got a gig somewhere around here. Where? Some theater around here in Glendale. Oh, the one right there? The Arden or whatever? Yeah.

Yeah, tomorrow night. What is that called? Really? Yeah. Well, shit. Yeah, and I was. I got to come down. I was in San Luis Ob Yeah, tomorrow night. What is that called? Really? Yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah, and I was... I got to come down. I was in San Luis Obispo

last night. How was that? It was fun. Who's the band? I got a trio. Okay. Yeah. It's got a violin

slash fiddler. Yeah. An Irishman. Yeah. Great musician. And an Aussie guitar player. We're a trio. Oh, yeah?

It's all acoustic, but it rocks pretty good. Yeah? Yeah. Can I come? Of course you can. Okay, man. You can be my guest. I'll put you on the list.

Oh, man, big night. I think I can walk there. You probably can. Great talking to you, man. You too. My pleasure. There you go. That was it.

Those are some serious American voices on today's show. John and Rodney. You can get the Chicago Sessions. It's available wherever you get your music. Hang out for a second folks hi it's terry o'reilly host of under the influence recently we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization it's a brand new challenging marketing category and i want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes

licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special

5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City

at torontorock.com. Okay, listen up, full Marin listeners. We're doing a look back at the past year for the next few weeks. And this week we dropped an episode where we talked about some of the memorable moments from the podcast in 2023. This was right at the beginning of the year, episode 1399 with Cat Williams, which I feel like is a great example of like a talk where both you in the moment while you were having it and then me, as soon as I started listening to it, we were both like, I think this is all bullshit.

Yeah, that was like one of the great amplified bullshit talks. But, you know, but we've had other guests like that. Yeah. And I don't think I don't think that there's that it's necessarily all bullshit. But, you know, his perception of who he was or who he chose he was or how he sees himself now in relation to the events of his life you know he builds stories around them yeah and and you know and even when he's telling you them you know i know you know it's embellished to be diplomatic and so does he yeah right right well What was that?

The crying hookers. The crying hookers. The story of how he became a pimp was because he showed up to a house where a pimp just died and the hookers were crying and asked him if he would please take over, sir. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or how he read every book ever written. Yeah, what he said, like I've read like 12 000 autobiographies yes yeah it was a number that was physically impossible it was like the number of days he's alive it would not be possible to read that many books but to sit with that guy in whatever version he's going to give you was

hilarious because like he chose he was going to be, I'm going to talk to Mark like a regular person. And then, you know, and then you're like, all right, so this is Cat Williams, you know, being a regular person. Yes. And, you know, and sort of like, you know, sharing this version of himself that is highly intelligent, has done all the homework. Winston Churchill was his inspiration. Sure. But there are bits and pieces of it that are so clearly true.

Like it's very easy in that conversation, which is what makes it great, to see that there is truth to all of it. It's just he's gone back and tweaked it a bit. Yes, exactly. But that was one of those ones where it was just so fun to sit across from that guy and watch him do that to me. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that afterwards. Like, we were talking and you were like, I don't know if this is going to sound good or anything, but it was entertaining to me.

Yeah, yeah. To sign up for the full Marin, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. All right, here, I worked hard on this guitar. It took me a long time. Here we go. Thank you. so Thank you. boomer lives monkey and the fonda cat angels everywhere