WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1498 - Blitz Bazawule

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

Growing up in Ghana, director Blitz Bazawule relied on three things to transport him to other worlds: movies, American hip-hop, and his grandmother’s stories. Blitz tells Marc how he combined all three in his work as a director, how his style of visual poetry attracted the attention of Beyoncé, and how he suddenly found himself at the helm of his first major studio film, the musical version of The Color Purple.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

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Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, Knicks? What the fuck, buddies? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going? Are you ready? Are you packed?

Are you heading out today, tomorrow, Saturday? Are you already there? Is it coming down on you? The weight of the festivities, the glorious and exciting, uplifting weight of the festivities with family. How's the tree? Is the tree nice? Did you get a good tree? Did you decorate it good? Did you get some new ornaments? What's happening?

Sorry, I'm trying to engage with my non-Jewish friends who are doing the Christmas. Are those for the Christmas? That's an amazing scene in the film Boogie Nights. Oh, are those for the Christmas? Don Cheadle with arguably the best line in the movie. Oh, are those for the Christmas? Before blood splatters everywhere. Merry Christmas to you. Today I talked to Blitz Bazawule. He's the director of the new movie musical version of The Color Purple, which I saw.

He's a filmmaker and artist originally from Ghana, and he was also one of the directors on Beyonce's musical film, Black is King. And I loved the movie. I love his movies, to be honest with you, but I'll get into that in a minute. Los Angeles, I'm at the Elysian Theater tomorrow, December 22nd. I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on Thursday, December 28th, and I'm at Largo on Tuesday, January 9th. Then I'm in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows. San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. Portland, Maine. I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts, outside Boston at the Chevalier.

Wait, let me say it right. Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall

on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. And I'll be in Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets. A radio legend passed away a couple of nights ago. Jim Ladd was one of the great radio personalities of the Los Angeles region.

He also did an episode of this show. He was also on an episode of my show, Marin. The episode he did of WTF was episode 658 from November 2015. It's available in the free feed right now. Rest in peace, Jim Ladd. Radio. Radio was something. Radio was everything for a long time. I think I learned how to talk on these mics on radio. And you got to give respect to the legends of that medium. Jim Ladd. Rest in peace, buddy. So listen, you guys, I wrote a joke. Yeah, I wrote a joke. I don't always write jokes. I kind of do bits. It was a pretty easy one to do. So I did it. I said on stage last night that Donald Trump used a line from Hitler.

Donald Trump used a line from Hitler. Yeah, he said that immigrants are destroying the blood of our country. Now, look, I know Donald Trump's a racist, and it's not the racism that bothers me. It's the plagiarism, people. I mean, if you're going to take someone's line, you got to either source it correctly or cite your reference or just have the courage to just give the author credit. I mean, you know, come on. Trump, just be like, you know, as Hitler said, is a nice way. You could set it up like that or one of my heroes, Hitler, put it this way. It's just don't be a coward and plagiarism is bad that was the gist of it

i thought it was pretty funny i thought it was pretty funny so many of you people know that i have a i would say a latent thing or love for musicals and And the way, the reason I say latent is because I don't really seek them out. But, uh, when I do experience them, they cause me to feel things. And I think in this conversation with Blitz, uh, we kind of come upon the reality that I believe the reason that I cry almost immediately when any large group of people start singing, whether it's a musical, a choir, not so much a band, but just something about the vulnerability of musicals. I don't know, man. I think we figured out that I'm not great at generating joy from myself, from the inside.

But when joy is thrust upon me, my body shudders and experiences emotions that I want to stop, but I know they're good and I stay with them. I don't really want them to stop, but for some reason, I'm a little ashamed of them. I don't know. That's another journey. But that seems to be the thing that happens to me when it comes to musicals. And I've been thinking about it. I think I really wish that I was the type of entertainer that could do a little song and dance occasionally.

I'm not talking about singing a rock song with my guitar and a band. I'm not talking about singing a rock song with my guitar and a band. I'm talking about like doing a little, you know, kind of a jaunty tune and maybe a, you know, kind of dancing around a little bit and, you know, and, you know, spread my arms open like, ah, I, I, like even that, maybe I, maybe I missed, maybe there, maybe I didn't, maybe there's still an opportunity. Maybe I should work out a musical number from a musical with another performer and do the dance number that goes along with it. Maybe that should be on my bucket list. Maybe that's what I'm avoiding. Maybe I need to do that. Maybe that'll change my entire disposition around entertaining and having feelings and love and joy for the audience and just really giving people a nice, emotionally well-rounded good time. That's what I'm missing. That's what I need to do to,

without irony, do a musical number or two from a musical with dance steps. But I'm putting that on the list. I'm putting that in my mind. I'm putting it out there to you that I will manifest it. I will. Now look, talking to Blitz Bazawule, he hasn't made a lot of movies. So I was able to really kind of dig in and I had some realizations and these were not realizations that I haven't had in some form before. I watched a couple of his short films, and I watched his first feature, The Burial of Kojo, which he shot in Ghana, which is where he's from, which is where his brain developed, which is where his sense of poetry, mythology, storytelling, and color comes from. And I had this realization, which I've had before.

I had it when I watched Reservation Dogs, that when you look at the world through the point of view of an artist from another place, another culture, a completely different visual sensibility because of that, that's how you see or experience that culture. If you're not going to go there, I'm not going to go to Ghana. And I just had this, this kind of beautiful experience with Blitz's first movie, uh, the burial of Kojo around the poetry, how he structures story, you know, how he sees, um, composition and color. And it really is why movies are so important and why art is so important. Again, is that it connects you with the humanity of the world, of others, of the point of view of others, the point of view of people that you think are different than you or come from a

different place, something you'll never see and can't imagine if you won't travel there and kind of entrench yourself or engage yourself with a different culture on that culture's terms. But you can do it through a movie. And it was kind of mind-blowing to me to kind of put that together and then to move through his other work to watch Black is King, the Beyonce concept musical, I guess, concept album musical. And then to watch The Color Purple, which I saw in New York at a friends and family screening, cast and crew, friends and family type of screening. It was spectacular because many people from the cast of this new film were there. And many people were in the audience from the several versions of the Broadway musical. Some of the original cast was there.

It was very emotional for some of the cast of the film to meet their counterparts from the past. There was an amazing moment between Danielle Brooks, who plays Sophia, and the original, the woman who originated on stage, who inspired Danielle to pursue a life in theater. And we all witnessed that. And Fantasia Barrino, who was on stage with it, is also in the movie. She plays Celie. was kind of spectacular to see the emotional depth of the impact of that show on this new cast as humans and as performers was really something. There is a tradition to it almost, a history to it, a story that's been told several ways from the book, from Spielberg's film, from several versions on Broadway. And it's a story that's pretty dug in to black culture in a way that spans generations. So it was quite an

experience to watch it that way. And I'll be honest with you, I loved it. I don't really necessarily know how to judge musicals, but I thought it was great. And after talking to Blitz and knowing where he comes from visually and intellectually and how he sourced the book more than anything else, it was kind of like a very personal and very unique vision for this new version of The Color Purple, and I appreciated it. I've been going to the cinema quite often. I went to the movie theater on the big screen to see poor things. That's the Yorgos Lanthimos, Emma Stone, uh, Mark Ruffalo, uh, you know, the Gerard Carmichael, many, many guests of mine. Rami Youssef was in it. Yeah. I'd like to, Willem Dafoe was in it. I've talked to all of them and all of them were quite good. Willem did not like me. It doesn't matter.

The film is amazing. It's quite a vision. And you expect that from Yorgos Lanthimos. You expect something surprising, brain bending, over the top, a bit crazy, very surreal in parts. But this thing had a real heart to it and a real journey and a real transformation. And I think it's his best movie. And I think Emma Stone is fucking amazing. And Ruffalo was great, was a great comic character. And I'll tell you, man, to see poor things on a giant screen down at the AMC was fucking great. And I had forgotten what it was like to really experience movies. I mean, ever since Oppenheimer at the IMAX and Barbie as well, I was like, this is how it was.

This is how we used to see movies when I was a kid. This is how big they should be. And it makes a difference. And there is something about going to the movies. It doesn't matter how many people are in the movies. There's something that happens to your focus. There's something that closes you in, that insulates you, that puts you in the box with the film, not like checking your cake, not like seeing if the pasta is ready, not checking your phone, not feeding your cat, not pausing that the fully immersive effect of going to the movies is still pretty fucking great. fucking great and it burrows into you and it humanizes you, man. Beats you down with the wizardry of illusion. Can you dig it? Okay. Blitz Bazabule is a filmmaker, a musician, also a novelist. The Color Purple opens in theaters everywhere on Christmas Day. I recommend it highly. And this is me in conversation with Blitz.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the

heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. mind your business. I saw the movie. I saw The Color Purple at the screening in New York. I enjoyed it. Oh, thanks. And then I knew I was going to talk to you.

So then I kind of like, you know, what do I know about West Africa? Oh, yeah. And then I realized, all right, so here's what I do. I go, I got records. And I'm thinking like when I was a kid, King Sonny A Day. Yeah. And then Baba Mal, those early Senegal records. Great stuff.

Yeah. And then Baba Mal, those early Senegal records. Great stuff. Yeah. And then I realized, well, I got this Lagos 1970 funk juju collection. Great era. Right? Great era. So I listened to that double record. Then I had some old Cora music, which was not necessarily relevant, but I did it. Yeah.

And then somehow or another I got, because I know you paint, I got, you know, I landed in my head that I was thinking of Basquiat's Self-Portrait with Ty. Oh, yes. And then I looked at the Henry Taylor book. Okay. Because I just saw that. Good ones. And then, you know, and I watched your early films.

So, you know, like, I had to, cause when I was watching, not the color purple, but when I watched the, the burial of Kojo, you know, I, you start to realize, or I do that, you know, I have no visual sense of where you come from and, and it's a completely different place. And, you know, you're from there, so your sensibility around it. So it's like, it's like going to another world. Indeed. I mean, but that's the beauty of cinema, right? Yeah.

I mean, that's kind of that ability to transport us. And that, for me, the craziest thing is it started for me in a soccer park in Ghana. Yeah. Because, okay, let me give a little context. Yeah. A coup happens in the 80 park in Ghana. Okay, let me give a little context. Yeah. A coup happens in the 80s in Ghana. A lot of the cinema houses closed down. Now, was that an autocrat?

Was that a little? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We went through a little window of dictatorship. Okay, how long? I was like, I think, 82 to like 92. So you're how old? I'm 40 now. No, but how old were you then? Oh, back then, geez. I was like, what, 82 to 92? Yeah So you're how old? You know, I'm 40 now. No, but how old were you then?

Oh, back then, geez. I was like, what, 82 to 92? Yeah, so I was 10. Right, so that's because I was wondering, because not knowing the history of Ghana, you know, the imagery that comes up in, you know, the native son and the imagery that comes up in the black is king, you know,

and, you know, in terms of choices boys must make. Yes. That's where it comes from. Indeed. Okay. So, soccer. Yeah. So, it's that outdoor kind of soccer park.

Yeah. But the wildest thing was no cinema houses or not many of them. And so, a lot of what we get are the evangelical movies that are that are projected american evangelical yeah yeah yeah it was big and you know what one they used to show all the time what the last temptation of christ well that's a that's mark so i was getting more marty i'm surprised that they the evangelicals were behind that what they were they were projecting i thought they had a problem with that one oh maybe not to specific. I mean, they were just showing as many Jesus movies as they could.

And of course, you know, this one was a big one. So these were missionaries? They were missionaries, you know, and they did them for free outdoors. But those were like the one of those like amazing things you looked forward to. Yeah, right. Because it was communal. You did your chores early. You got your mat. You took it to the park. You laid it out. You waited for the movie to start. Yeah, right. Because it was communal. You did your chores early. You got your mat. You took it to the park.

You laid it out. You waited for the movie to start. Yeah. And the projection, right, of this world that you were like, I didn't know this world existed. Transportive. I mean, down the line, you find out it's Martin Scorsese and he's done. Taxi driver, he's done. Right.

Sure, sure. Good fellas. But at the moment, when you're 10, you just know, like, you know, I'm away. That's it. Right. He's done, you know. Sure, sure. You know, good fellas. But at the moment when you're 10, you just know like, you know, I'm away. That's it. Right. That's it. And that for me, I've never forgotten that feeling. As a matter of fact, that scene in The Color Purple where Suge takes Celie to the movies, that's homage.

That was me watching yeah watching and being transported and going wow the worlds that lie beyond the infinite yeah

well I mean even in there's a couple of homages there's that in Black is King there's that Esther Williams kind of swimming

swimming of course of course of course of course where did you find that thing well that was B that was Bea. That was Beyonce.

Oh, she taught that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, we were constantly going back and forth. There were parts that I did in South Africa, like that levitation where the guy goes up. Well, yeah, and also the theme of, you know, whether it's horses or motorcycles and masks and devils. Yes. That seems to be your realm. But all of it really, I'll tell you where all of it comes from.

It's my grandmother's stories. Yeah. Ultimately. So this is in Ghana. What is the situation family-wise for you? So my family's from the northernmost part of Ghana. We are like Sassala people, way up top, right? And what's that border on?

So that border's on Burkina Faso, right? So it's right where, you know, my village is right underneath Burkina Faso. But what happens is that everyone migrates to the south, which is Accra, for work. That's where you grew up. So I grew up in Accra. What's the work?

You know, work, any work, all work, right? Right, yeah, yeah. And so my father and my mother moved down there, and so that's where we were all born. What was his work? My dad at the time was a civil servant, you know, and my mom's a teacher. My mom's always been a teacher. A civil servant for the government? For the government.

For whatever government? Yeah, I was, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the time, government? For the government. For whatever government? Yeah, I was, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the time, right? At the time. So, but what's exceptional is my grandmother comes to stay with us because she has asthma. Yeah. And that window is like my window into storytelling.

Right. Because, you know, power was kind of like, electricity was kind of in and out back then. And so whenever power go out, my grandmother's stories were the only thing that would keep us. And what were they mostly? They were folk tales, but they were like the movies I make today. No, I know. I saw like because I was wondering where that comes from. both in Native Son and also in the burial of Kojo, that I didn't know if they were allegories because some of it's biblical, some of it's folk story.

I mean, you know, and also the burial of Kojo is somebody telling a story. Absolutely. And I mean, that's kind of, I've always, that's kind of been my de facto into storytelling. But also the possibility, the story doesn't have to be linear right it could be cyclical i know right and cyclical you know what i mean and so that's kind of for me my grandmother's stories became like the basis and i think everything i've

done music you know so transitioning into the visual elements of nonlinear storytelling, because, you know, sometimes when I watch things, I'm like, what did I miss? Yeah. But in the way you describe it, though, if it's nonlinear and it's cyclical, then, you know, it's more poetic. Yes. And the connections aren't as cut and dry. No, no. What's a good word? They are, the way they connect are not overt.

You know what I mean? And I think that for me has been an exciting thing to participate in this particular medium because cinema is such a very Western, you know, style where most things are very, you know, three-act structure. I got to know what answers what. You know, people have been telling all kinds of stories in all kinds of ways. Yeah. Way before this medium.

And this medium's quite young. So that's true. But so your grandmother, though, in terms of imagery, because it seems like some of the elements of the early movies, you know, have to do with symbolism that's not necessarily explained, but almost in a folktale story, child story kind of way.

Yes. Yes, and again, I think that's like the, that's what, for me, excites me about the possibilities of this medium. And I, and I always compare it to music, you know, music.

So free. Sure. I mean, it's every kind, no matter where you go, indigenous people make Western people make Africans make it Europeans make. It's just such an amalgam and it, and it,

and because the freedoms to create are, and specifically the African and the African diaspora, if you think about the freedoms that the musics have had, I mean, everything from gospel, jazz, blues, funk, R&B, Afrobeat, Roomba, and some of the records we were talking about, the juju music, high life, the Afro beat, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The freedoms that exist in those mediums are yet to be felt in cinema, I think. Interesting. I think. Because the medium is so young that, you know,

it's also quite narrow because of the barriers to entry. I mean, it's a very expensive medium. Yeah. So, I mean, it's getting more and more. I mean, the reason I was able to make The Burl of Kojo is the advent of digital cameras. Sure. I could not dream about making that movie.

First, I couldn't afford to make it. Yeah. But we took chances making that movie because it was fairly cheap to do it. Yeah. And I think that the more the medium gets decentralized and more and more people have access, I think we're going to see, it's going to be like music.

It's going to be like poetry. Poetry, yeah. Like the music, because even when you do Black is King, which is essentially music, what you have, though, it's a little different. There's an intensity and a speed and like a lot of costumes. Yes. Lots of costumes.

Lots. I can't even imagine those shoots. The wardrobe truck, there must have been four of them. Tons. Yep. But it all happened so quickly. So when you really translate a sense of rhythm that is similar to music to film, which I think you probably achieved a lot of in Black is King.

Absolutely. That everything happens very quickly. So you don't sit with the imagery as long, but it all hits you, but it's a lot. It's overwhelming. It is. It is. But that was its intent, what, but that was its intent, right? I think, I think when you move into the color purple now, now we can ballet a little bit more, right? So you can still take that same sense of visual poetry, but now you kind of now can live a little longer in these worlds.

But also the music's different. Yes. Right. Very different. Because even if, if, if you look at like the? Very different. Because even if you look at the early ones, like I'm trying to look at the timeline here, but the diasporadical Trilogia. Trilogia, yep.

So this is essentially poetry that happens in three grooves. Yes. I guess. Yes. And the story is, there are three different stories through the idea of somebody existing in three different worlds and times. Yes. But it's essentially a black story about a woman. Yeah. Yes. So but those are all different. So then you can see the different rhythms. Absolutely. Because you're dealing with different times, different countries. Yes, different times signatures. Yes. Right? Which I find, again, I love that film.

And here's the amazing thing about cinema. It ends up being an amalgam of all of these kind of separate creative mediums. Of course, yeah. You got to be a poet to make a film. You got to know how to write. I mean, cinema is great writing. Writing and also a sense of frame and time. Yes, yeah. You got to be a poet to make a film. You got to know how to write. I mean, cinema is great writing. Writing and also a sense of frame and time.

Yes, time, all that stuff. You have to know visual blocking and framing. That's another massive thing. So photography becomes a thing that you have to, or painting. And you have to know rhythm music. You got to know how scenes you have to, or painting, you know, and you have to know rhythm music. You got to know how scenes are going to, I mean, I've seen directors like literally like conduct a scene, you know, and you go, wow, like this is rhythmic. So when you think about it, the better you are at all of these seemingly disparate mediums.

Well, not really. You mean painting, music, and film? Yeah. Poetry? Yeah, poetry. All these things, they seem siloed, right? Well, not really. You mean painting, music, and film? Yeah. Poetry? Yeah, poetry. All these things. They seem siloed, right? Well, they're all in film.

In film, exactly. And that's what I love about the medium is that, wow, like I can read a thing. I can read a book and go, wow, I know how to,

in a way, approximate that for a shot in my film. Or even a feeling. A feeling. That's it. So, well, what was the first thing for you? I mean, outside of seeing evangelical films outdoors in the middle of a coup, where you

need to... It wasn't in the middle of a coup, but it was post-coup. Post-coup. But it's tense. It's tense. You know, things are a little destabilized. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little nervous.

Absolutely. You know, new people on horses and motorcycles, I guess. That's stuff. Different uniforms. That's tense. You know, things are a little destabilized. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little nervous. Absolutely. You know, new people on horses and motorcycles, I guess. That stuff. Different uniforms. Absolutely. When you're a kid, so there's an escape to it. But what was, you know, who was kind of supporting your creativity? You had a bunch of siblings. Yes, it was my mother. Yeah. My mother was, I mean, God bless her. She's a teacher. She's a teacher. My mother let me be. Yeah. And I got to say this, you know, gun in kid. There's a couple things you can be. Yeah.

A banker, a pilot, you know, like, you know, respectable jobs. Yeah. Nobody respected art. My mother made sure, and I was also living in a house that was constantly under construction. So there was always like some crevice that was free. My mother would say, take that. It's yours. That's where I learned to draw.

Yeah. And I will say, every idea I've ever had creatively has come from a piece of art. Before I write a song, I have to sketch it out. I got to draw what I think I see. Yeah. You know, before I make a movie. I mean, I go overboard with that. With storyboarding? Oh my goodness. I storyboarded over 1500 frames of

storyboard for the color purple. Yeah. For blackest skin, that's actually how I got the job. From storyboarding? Yeah. Yeah. B saw my, Beyonce saw my storyboards and was like, yeah, give this kid a job now. Burl of Koja was the same. But I value it because I really believe that if you and I got the same script, went off to shoot a movie, we'll come back with two completely different movies. Sure. Because we see the world completely different. Yeah. If I showed you a piece of drawing and I said, we're shooting that.

Yeah. We all got to shoot that because we know where the camera goes. Yeah. Right? And so I've been very fastidious about that. But it was not the, but that evolved. Like, you know, at the beginning as a creative person, you know, what did you see yourself doing? You know, you learned how to draw.

That was it. And then you were going to what?? You learned how to draw. That was it. And then you were going to what? Draw? Just going to draw. Because I didn't know no better. I loved it. I could sit down for hours and I enjoyed it.

People left me alone. My mom let me be. But then came hip hop. And hip hop was... How old were you? Same time. Ten? Yeah, 19... How'd you hear it? Well, Public Enemy came to Ghana.

Yeah. Oh, they came and performed? They came to perform in Ghana. Yeah. Yeah. Chug D and Flavor Flavor. I was a kid. I couldn't go.

But who? But that's all they talked about on the radio. That's all they played on the radio was It Takes a Nation to Move Us. No one went in your family? No one. Yeah. No one. But, I mean, my neighbors went,

and they came back with war stories. Yeah. It was incredible. Yeah. And I was like, whatever that is. And some people had T-shirts. That was the first time I'd seen the logo. Did any of your siblings artists?

No, not really. I mean, my brother drew, too, but he kind of, like, let it go. But I used to just copy his style. Yeah. As a kid. So he showed you shit? He showed me shit

yeah a lot of good shit yeah did he have records my brother was I mean he was the purveyor of hip hop yeah so like my brother came home wait you sold it sorry he sold hip hop records no no no to me I mean he introduced me to this incredible world because what it was was he would go off to secondary school, which is what, high school in America. Right. And that's when hip-hop had broken. Right.

And so, you know, tapes like Rock Kim, De La Soul, The Tribe, Cold Quest, he brought home. Right. And, like, he'll call me, like, when he comes home after, like, a whole term at school, he'll call me to the back of the house. This is what I got. This is what I got.

And, I mean, I'll be enamored. I was like, what is this? What was the music in the house previous to hip hop? High Life. It was High Life. All about love. Right. But that's where those horns come from.

Yeah, that's where it comes from. Absolutely. But I mean, again, at the time, I was just tired of it. I was like, that's all they play on a radio. That's all my parents like. You know, same thing was happening here in America, right? It was like, here are all these R&B records. And then all of a sudden, that's all my parents like. You know, same thing was happening here in America, right? It was like, here are all these R&B records. And then all of a sudden it's hip hop.

But the High Life music, was that out of Niger or where was it from? Ghana. It was all from Ghana. All from Ghana. Yeah, we had some amazing, I mean, Abel Taylor, who's still active, was one of our biggest. Yeah. Yeah, there were some phenomenal records. I mean, I'll send you a playlist. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Was one of our biggest. Yeah. Yeah, there were some phenomenal records. I mean, I'll send you a playlist.

Okay. It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. So that shifted your whole sensibility. You realized, like, there's something else happening. Something else. And you know what I loved about hip-hop?

Mm-hmm. Audacity. Mm-hmm. You know? Gave you confidence. Confidence. You know, these guys who counted out. Nobody had any plans for them. Yeah. And somehow they had captivated the world. Yeah, yeah. I was like guys who counted out. Nobody had any plans for them.

Yeah. And somehow they had captivated the world. Yeah, yeah. I was like, what? Maybe if I can do that, I'll have a shot.

So you thought music now. Now it's music. So now, that same room, now I got, my mom's banging on the door now. Yeah.

Because it's no longer quiet. Yeah, yeah. Now it's always, she called boom, boom, boom music. Yeah, yeah. This is all this boom, boom, boom.

Get your pencil. You know what I mean? But I loved it. I kind of got sucked into this vortex. Did you start writing then? Started writing. Rap lyrics. Rap lyrics.

And then you know how I did them? I just copied, I don't know, like a De La Soul record and I'll change a line here, change a line there. Figure out the structure. Figure out the structure. Throw my name in there pretend I wrote it all yeah

you know I was I was doing a lot of that yeah were you performing it yeah at school for your family

oh at school yeah yeah and actually people thought I was good but it was all just like Biggie Smalls records yeah

I was faking yeah who the fuck is this page of me 546 send him this and like oh he's good no it's just all Biggie but a lot of them didn't know it or they did I was faking it. Yeah, yeah. Who the fuck is this? Page of Media 546, send him this, da-da-da. And they're like, oh, he's good.

No, it's just all big. But a lot of them didn't know it, or they did. No, yeah, of course. I sounded like a genius, but I wasn't. But that's where it begun for me, just in terms of going, wow, there is something out there. And it's powerful. And it's global. Yeah.

And maybe if I worked hard at it. So that's actually when my fixation with coming to america started because at this point my sister and my brother are going off to university in the uk yeah and and that's very common with you know west africans it's like you know and this is all post-colonial so if you're like francophone you go to france belgium yeah yeah if you're anglophone you go to to France, Belgium. Yeah, yeah. If you're Anglophone, you go to England. That's kind of what was happening. So my sister and brother went there for education. I was like, I'm coming to America.

And this was, but your intent, you know, creatively was rap. That's it. When did you come to America? How old? Just college? Yeah, I came for college. I was 17. So 17. So between like 12 and 17, you're just focusing on music.

Harnessing, learning what I could about it. And then I got accepted to Kent State University. Wow, that's a heavy history. Yes. Were you hip to it? I was hip. I was hip. I didn't, you know, I needed to go anywhere they'll take me.

Yeah. So you weren't hung up on it? You didn't get there and think, like, this is where that happened? No. I was just like, my SAT scores were not great. Sure. Somebody will take me. Yeah, so Ohio.

Ohio. I was like, okay. It's not New York. It's not LA. But it'll do. Yeah. And it was great. I actually enjoyed my time.

All four years? All four years. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot. Did you do music? I did a lot of music. I opened for a lot of good bands that came. That was the great thing about not much was happening in the Cleveland.

Well, what was your setup? I was just a DJ and a mic. Yeah, right. I was part of little sprawling groups. I did as much as I could. But straight up like New York style? New York, New York hip hop. You know, faking it.

And then I graduate. But this way it becomes like a crossroads. With what degree? Of all things, a marketing and advertising degree. Who put you up to that? Well, my parents wanted me to do architecture. Because again, that's one of the respectable

jobs. That sounds interesting. It is. But that's one of the respectable uh uh jobs that sounds interesting it is but that's what you think until you see those damn drawings right this is boring yeah and it's like the thing is they go you can draw right so you should be an architect yeah it's not the same thing yeah it's like it's like that's sketching and that's like lying yeah this is restricted restricted it's engineering I couldn't handle it. I did one semester. I bounced on like fashion merchandising. Couldn't handle it. Bounced interior design. Couldn't handle it.

And I stumble into a marketing class. Right. And I go, this is it. This is it. I get it. It was intuitive. It's like, I'm always going to be selling something. Right. So I might as well understand what that is. Yeah. And I love it. So it's practical. It was intuitive. It's like, I'm always going to be selling something. Right. So I might as well understand what that is.

Yeah. And I love it. So it's practical. It's practical. You could do your creative thing and this is something I can use. Use. Yeah. And I'll tell you what, graduating with that degree, literally not even taking off my graduation gown, that's how much I wanted to get out of camp.

Yeah. I jumped in my car. It was a van. It was a little blue chevy right with a bad break i remember that because every time i'll park it it'll just like skid off a little bit yeah it's a terrible car yeah but i drove all the way you gotta have a terrible car graduate college you had to and i drove all the way to new york yeah guess what they stole my car good welcome to New York. Literally, literally the next day. Yeah. I walked around.

I walked around all the way. I thought I'd parked my car, which is flashing Queens. The car was gone. Yeah. I went around chop shops hoping to find something left of my car. No. Nothing. Gone.

Lucky. Learned how to use the subway. Yes. So anyway, the one thing though that i was smart enough to carry upstairs in my new apartment just three floors up no elevator was a box of my cds yeah that i had uh printed in college of your music of my music yeah so now i go all right it's all i got and i'm not about to go get a job right now. Right, yeah.

So I'm going to sell these CDs in New York. Yeah. So I go, this is nuts, I go, where is like a big traffic area?

Yeah. They tell me it's Union Square. Yeah, sure. Okay. I remember those hip hop guys selling those CDs. Of course.

I may have approached you and go, hey, you listen to hip hop? Yeah. But here's the wild thing. So there was a Virgin Megastore. on those CDs. Of course. I may have approached you and go, hey, you listen to hip hop? Yeah. But here's the wild thing. So there was a Virgin Megastore,

remember, right around that corner? Oh yeah, yeah, sure. Before the Whole Foods showed up. Yeah. And I used to set up outside there

until those guys were like, this guy's cutting into our business. It was like down on Broadway, right? Yeah, it was on Broadway. Yeah,

yeah. Right, right. It was a beautiful spot. So they used to kick me away from there. So then I moved a little further to actually the 14th subway station. The QRN. Yeah.

I walk into the Virgin. Yeah. And I see a long line of people waiting there, here, whoever's album was out. Right. And I go, that's how you do it. Right. You don't approach people And ask them You just have a setup

Yeah And then they'll line up There's that marketing education Yeah So I set up outside Now I'm in front of like Whatever that Whole Foods is Yeah

And now I build me a little booth With a With a pair of headphones Yeah And I I shit you not Just like a

Virgin listening station I shit you not People will line the fuck up. Really? And this is New York, man. Nobody ever stops for nothing. Yeah. And that's when I learned, man, you can't chase them.

Yeah. You got to attract them. Sure. You know? And that was a huge education. But the other thing my hustling in New York helped me do was watch movies. I mean, I've always been obsessed with the medium. But now I was near the IFC.

I was near the Film Forum. There was AAMC not far in Arrigo. And then that one right down on, what is it, 13th or whatever? 13th, that one. So literally, whatever I made, selling CDs, I'll go to the movies. And literally, I saw everything I'll go to the movies. Yeah. And I literally, I saw everything. Yeah.

Old prints, new prints. That's actually where I got put onto I Am Cuba, Saw Cuba, which became like, you know, my kindred. And actually, it's how Dan Lawson and I bonded, day one. It's like both our favorite movies. Yeah. I think I saw it at the Film Forum. Who's Dan Lawson? Dan Lawson's my DP. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so it goes that far back. It goes that far back. Yeah. I think I saw it at the Film Forum. Who's Dan Lawson? Dan Lawson's my DP.

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so it goes that far back. It goes that far back. Yeah. Right? So I was, I would literally, sometimes I would literally

spend everything I made selling CDs and have to hop the turnstile. I mean, it was like, it was before, you know, before cameras. Yeah, are you making new music?

Now? At that time. At that time, yeah, yeah. Because you've got this thing going. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And again, so I'm spending time in the movie theaters watching now. Now I'm building a film education. Because I always wanted to go to film school.

Right. But just couldn't afford it. Yeah. You know, and it's just like. Go watch movies. Go watch movies. That's it. And then you get a good DP and say, how do we do this?

How do we do that? Exactly. You figured it out. So that really became it for me until, you know, and while this is happening, my music is also doing well, right? So now I'm breaking in Europe. Really? How'd that happen?

I got an opportunity to perform at a festival called Transmusicale des Rennes in France. And you went? I went. And I took a band of rank-tag New Yorkers who ended up being some of my best friends now. Horn section? Horn section. See, when did you make that shift? Because it starts to make sense to me that whatever the vision was or the agenda was and i don't

know where you came up with the name the ambassador but it seemed like and i'm no hip-hop wizard at all i don't go too deep with it but it seems that there was a real intention to integrate west african sensibility into uh you know american hip-hop. Absolutely. Because I don't like, again, I don't know a lot, but it's very specific, the music you come from. And it's in your records. I mean, I listen to Native Son. Yes, oh yeah, that's a good one

because that's when I really figured out that hip-hop is just sample culture. And if you understand how these samples work, really figured out that hip-hop is just simple culture. Yeah. And if you understand how these samples work, okay, so you can either take Mingus, Miles. Right. You know? Yeah.

Or you could take King Sonny all day or Fela Kuti. Yeah. You know, all you got to do is add some edgy drums. Yeah. Often it's still always coming from James Brown and his cohorts, funky drummer. Mm-hmm. And then before you know it, you've got a thing.

You've got an edge. And so Native Son was it. I mean, that was also when I went, oh, this can extend to not just music. It's a concept. Cinema is sample culture too. Right. We're always just picking things and mix and matching.

I go, wait, those grandmother stories I got? And then you used one of the songs from Native Son in one of the movies, Free Your Mind. Free Your Mind, yes. Which movie is that in? That is in Free Your Mind is in Burial of Kojo. Yeah. It's in Burial of Kojo. So that was happening simultaneously.

That was happening simultaneously, exactly. So now I'm going, oh, wait, this of Kojo. Yeah. It's in Burial of Kojo. So that was happening simultaneously. That was happening simultaneously. Exactly. So now I'm going, oh, wait, this concept might work. Yeah. You know, it's all like finding this edge that like is Western culture and then figuring out the source, which for me is Ghanaian culture, visually and sonically. So now it just became the melding of the world. Right.

So sonically, it's an integration, right? Yes. So where do you come from? How do you say it? Ghanaian? Yeah, I'm Ghanaian. Ghanaian culture infused into American hip hop. Yes.

And then so your lyrics become, there's still sort of, the rhythm in the poetry is pretty much rap. Yes. But the storytelling capacity of rap is not going to get you to your grandmother. No. No. That's it. Right. By the way, no one's ever put it that way.

Yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. And that's where you get the Burial of Kojo ultimately And that's where you get the Burial of Kojo ultimate. That's where I get the Burial of Kojo. Because the limitations of the music are, it's not that music is limited, but in terms of the limitations of the poetry that you can achieve through storytelling and being specifically a Ghanaian vision, you had to go to film. I had to go to film. I had to go to film. It was the only way to fully maximize.

Because my grandmother's stories were also, yeah, music, but they were visual. I really remember the visuals more than I actually do remember the music. We clapped and we sang and she taught us little songs to go with the stories, but it wasn't enough. But then once I figured out the camera could capture that. Right. And that, and also without explaining much,

other than having the little girl talk about this world in between life and death, that imaginary world or another mystical world. So then, you know, you can just leave that there. Yes. And then it's up to you watching it. Yes. And I think that is also another thing that is very peculiar about African storytelling.

It's very, it's very, the audience member is an active participant, right? You know, it's always, it's always like, there's always room for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. And it doesn't, it doesn't get explained fully. That's right. You know what I's always, it's always like, there's always room for you. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it doesn't, it doesn't get explained. That's right. You know what I mean?

It's like, yeah. The blind guy comes with a bird. Yes. What's that mean? Now you've got to go, damn it. Was he trying to say, oh, you know what? I think I know what he's trying to say. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. And it's how I feel. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's how I feel. And I think, and I think that more and more there is, the more I've done the work, you know, and the more I've like just enjoyed being free on that level. And that thing, that's it. Because, but see, because the thing is, if something is carried down generationally, then who are you to explain it?

That's it. That's it. So it must, even if you don't know how far back it goes,'s it. That's it. So it must, even if you don't know how far back it goes, the symbols are what they are. Yes. So, you know, go with it.

Yes. Go with whatever. Whatever. Exactly. And, you know, that's the beauty. And again, by the time I get to the color purple, I've done enough of that experimenting to go, because that's what Diasporadical Trilogia was.

That was my first foray into, can I understand? You broke it down so well. It's these movements, these sonic movements, which now I have to match visually. So I go, okay, I think I get what this is trying to be. And then I go in long form and I do Burial of Kojo and it explains itself a little bit more. Then I'm thrown into the deep end where Black is King because now I'm like, oh boy, where am I? I got it.

It's a deep end, but it's also unlimited possibility. Yes. Because, you know, you're working with Beyonce and you're doing, you know, this sort of visual version of a concept record. Yes. And it's all going to be, the music is the music. Yes. So you can sort of do whatever you want, and she's got the bread and the costumes. Yes, lots of costumes.

And you've got a choreographer that I imagine she brought in. Yep. Because there's a couple of beats in that in The Blackest King where that canoe shot where she's just literally a vagina. Yeah, yeah, because there's a couple where, there's a couple of beats in that in The Blackest King where, like, that canoe shot where she's just, like, literally a vagina. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, there's this aerial shot, and I'm like, that's a floating vagina. Yes. But, I mean, you got to remember, I mean, beat is.

What about that snake one where they're all wearing that one outfit on the crate? Yeah, with the snake. Oh, yeah, it's incredible. What the fuck is that? Yeah, yeah. But here's the beauty. Yeah. It's exactly what you said.

It's provocative. Yeah. And that's what matters. And it got me thinking. I still watch that movie and ask myself, what does it all mean? You know what I mean? Like, I'm still trying to, and I think that's great art. I mean, it's like looking at a Basquiat painting.

Right. It's exactly, and I'm so glad you a Basquiat painting. Right. Right? It's exactly. And I'm so glad you mentioned Basquiat earlier because I've been to the gallery and museums to see the same Basquiat picture a few times. Sure. That's why. And every time, I'm like, what's this guy trying to say? Oh, I get that little part there.

Yeah. He reveals yourself to yourself. That's it. guy trying to say, oh, I get that little part there. Sure, but yeah, he reveals yourself to yourself. That's it. And I think the more, with age, with understanding, with growth, you see things, and I think that's good art. Good art is living.

I agree with you that the genius of good art is that it grows with you. That's it. No matter how many times you visit it, you will take something different away from it. But do you look at, do you still, do you know what Kojo means? I think I understand it more now. Well, I mean, because like, it seems that, you know, with Native Son, the short. Yes. And also with Kojo, and it's, this is a journey fueled by grief.

Yes. So, you know, that's real sort of, you know, childhood, you know, loss. Yes. And uncertainty. Yes. So, you know, that's real sort of, you know, childhood, you know, loss. Yes. And uncertainty. Yes. And so that journey

in both of them, one is the little girl and that's different. Yes. But the kid's journey, the boy's journey in Native Son is more sort of,

I can see that through to Black is King where, you know, you are left with these choices and what life means. But with Kojo, that was really kind of an amazing bit of storytelling that left a lot of open space. Yes. Because you have the ocean.

There's an isolating feeling. There's a village feeling versus a city feeling but there's also as it becomes revealed the question of you know the shame yes guilt yeah guilt and i think you know i i think it's also like i also have always explored the complexity of the headspace yeah you know? And I think it's another thing that's very under-explored in cinema, I think. I mean, just this... You mean visualizing the headspace?

Visualizing. Not just sitting there looking at someone thinking. No, exactly. Like, what are they thinking? And I think that Kojo is a sense of grief, guilt that this man's wrestling with. And there's a story that's very

clear present and linear you know that guy who's caused pain and havoc and has to deal with the consequences of that

and right but then but you know it's sort of you don't know that right up front no and then like the turn

at the end of the second act which is the you know the friend going like the uncle hasn't been around he's been gone for seven years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that all is pulled out from under you. And then you're like, whose imagination was it and why?

And the kid's operating on some supernatural level. Yes. So, you know, she saw the uncle. Yes. Because she was sharing the father's vision because she got the bird from the blind guy. That's it. Yeah. I mean, that's the beauty of it all, right?

It's like, and I've really enjoyed making art that does exactly, that grows with you as you evolve as a human. But the beauty is, then I get this massive opportunity. Well, that's the thing like you know getting you moving up to the color purple is that after you sort of work with beyonce it's sort of like the one thing out of all of it you got to be comfortable with is shooting people dancing yes yes absolutely but but the idea so what we're and i'm sure you've told this story watching The Color Purple, you know, it does deal with all your themes and you get a little Africa in there towards the end. I do.

And I milk that. I do. That's your wheelhouse. Yes. But what were the challenges, you know, well, from the beginning, you know, having, like, were you surprised that you got a shot at this? I was. I mean, I'd never made a studio picture. So who gets you that, Beyonce?

No. No. Blackest Game wasn't out yet. It was rumored to be out. There was a trailer out, but it wasn't out. Right. My agent called me. Yeah.

He was like, hey, you know, they're remaking The Color Purple. They've seen a few directors already and somehow your name came up and i want you to take a meeting and i was just like come on they've seen a couple people that's just telling me someone's already hired and i'm just gonna waste my time you know or they're using you for leverage for leverage you know so you know i i was i was quite skeptical at first. And then I think what I'm also the kind that's also like, what's the worst? I'll learn something. Yeah.

You know? Want to talk to a few big shots. Why not? In Hollywood. Yeah. You know? In Hollywood. No, but you know a part that I've missed that I think is important to this conversation?

Yeah. In 2015, when I was like, music had kind of plateaued. Right. I played all the concerts I could. I hadn't scored a hit. Right. So there was no way I could imagine I was going to keep going.

Without getting sad. Without, exactly, sad, very sad. Yeah. I got a call from my mom. Yeah.

And she goes, are you thinking of making a movie? Yeah. I go, you know, I'd like to. This is before Kojo? Before Kojo. She goes, are you thinking of making a movie? Because I had a vision.

Yeah. And I saw Hollywood. Yeah. Yeah. Is your mom one that has visions? Oh, here and there. But like, not this level. Right.

But I was like, okay, you saw Hollywood? I go, okay. So she goes, yeah, if you plan to make a movie, you should do it soon. I kid you not, man, that summer, I packed all my crap. And I moved back to that house, the same house where I learned to sketch. Is it still under construction? No, it's been done now. It's been done for a while.

So your corner was gone? The corner's gone, but now there's a room because everybody's left now. So I'm in a real room. Is your grandmother still around? No, she passed away sadly. A while back.

While we were kids, actually, still. Oh, okay. Laid the imprint, though. Yeah. All right, so you go back. So I go back in that room is where I write The Burial of Kojo. Where'd that come from?

Well, it came from, like, I grew up around people that I knew were dealing with, you know, just deep guilt, deep, you know. Over one thing or the other? Over one thing or the other, you know, remorse. And that struck you how it struck me as like how do people you know how do people who've dealt with trauma move on from that trauma or how don't they move on right right my mom had dealt with some trauma yeah young and so you know i was i'd always been in awe of her ability to just go, all right, fuck it. Keep going. Right.

You know, and. Not be consumed by it. Not be consumed by it. You know what I mean? So anyway, I'd kind of myself gone, it's something that struck me. And because, you know, Ghana also doesn't, unfortunately, have the infrastructures around mental health. Neither does this country

for whatever reason. Yeah. But you were suffering with some trauma yourself? Not me, myself, but I was witnessing a lot of people who had been doing it.

My mom herself and her friends. You're the kid who's around, right? And you hear adults talking. Oh, wow, these people

survived some shit. My mom was thrown in jail during the coup d' you hear adults talking. You know, wow, these people survived some shit. My mom was thrown in jail during the coup d'etat. Right. You know what I mean? And she survived that, came out of jail. So these things are hard on them. But again, there's no certified therapist to go talk to. So they talk to the guy who comes over to mend clothes from neighborhood to neighborhood.

Or to each other. To each other, the friends that come. They send you to go buy some beer so they can drink beer and talk about their problems. And you hide around the room and eavesdrop on some of this shit and you go, damn, they've survived. So anyway, it's always been something that struck me because there's no outlet for it, no real outlet.

And so that's kind of where it came from, was just visualizing what it would be like if somebody has fucked up royally. But also there's no saying that even with infrastructure or help that they're going to unfuck themselves. That's a fact. That's a fact. So, you know, this guy is suffering alone. Yes. You know, other than his mystical daughter knowing. Knowing. But you don't know. You unfold that story very well. So, okay, so your mother has this vision and you go back and do it. So I go back and do it. And so anyway, I'm, so now I get this call.

You know, now things have happened quickly now. You gotta remember, I made, I shot Burial 17, 18. I'd done a few festivals, 19, Ava DuVernay. I picked it up and put it on Netflix. But you did the shorts earlier? I did the shorts earlier. Before Kojo? Before Kojo, yes.

But those were like more of music video oriented, right? Not narrative. Right, you're in it. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because Native Son is sort of you selling the music. Yeah, okay. It was all like visual albums, you know? So now I get this call that they're redoing The Color Purple.

And I go, boy, all right. I should go take this meeting. Right. But before I do, I go, I should do what I've always done. Yeah. I should sketch. Yeah. You know, they had sent the script.

I had read it. I had some things I liked. I was like, all right. So then I had read it. I had some things I liked. I was like, alright. So then I start sketching, but then I realize that I'm going like, I'm like, okay. Because I remember the Steven Spielberg classic. It was brilliant. But before the

Steven Spielberg classic, I was sucked into Alice Walker novel. That book's something. That's real poetry. Incredible poetry. And then I saw Steven's film and it sucked me in some more. But now here I am going, what am I going to contribute? I mean, and then there's a Tony Award winning Broadway play.

I'm like, well, this thing is. Did you see it? I didn't see it. But they had sent clips. So I was like, all right, well, it's done and done. We had the music. We had the music. It's done.

Right. But then I go back to the Alice book. Right. Because I'm like, I have to have something to present. I can't just take a meeting. That's interesting. I'm one of those that go, I know it's an interview. It's not a social call.

Yeah. You know? But so you knew, though, enough to know that if you're going to shoot your vision of it, you're not going to get Spielberg's out of your head because it's already in there. There's nothing you can do about it. It's there. The musical you can avoid, but you got the music.

Yes. So you went back to the text. Went back to the text. And I kid you not, first line, first page. She goes, Dear God, I'm 14 years old. Always been a good girl. I go, Whoa, that's it. Anyone who's writing letters to God on this scale has got an imagination.

And that's one thing I know how to explore. Right. I'm an undisputed champion of exploring headspace in cinema. I go, I think I got something. Yeah. So then that's when I start sketching. I mean, I go into a frenzy. That's how the giant gramophone comes up

because I go, what can I do? So I keep pushing and pushing. So that's her imagination. So was that the first one you sketched? That was the first thing I sketched. And crazy enough, that's how I got Fantasia to say yes to this film. She didn't want to do it.

Yeah. She was like, oh, she was like Blitz. It was painful to do it on Broadway. You know, it was deep. She didn't want to do it. Yeah, she was like, oh, she was like Blitz. It was painful to do it on Broadway, you know? It was deep. She herself has dealt with deep trauma,

didn't want to deal with it at all. I said, look, Fantasia, I'm going to give Celie this massive, sprawling imagination. And here's the beauty. Often people who are,

have dealt with trauma, miscategorized as docile and passive well that's not what we're going to do we're going to give her this agency because we're going to be here

and also she doesn't have to do it every night five nights a week and you shoot a scene you go sit down for nine hours that's it that's it so I mean I think eventually she was sold

but I think she was most sold by that gramophone because she went well if he's going to push it that far. Yeah. Why not? Maybe something in here.

It's movies. So that's how I went. I went this. First, it was Scott Sanders. It was great. And he told me, he told me, I'll hear back. And I didn't know it was going to be. Who was Scott Sanders?

Scott Sanders is the producer of the Broadway show. So Scott was the first person I interfaced with. And then he was like. That was your first interview? First interview. First interview. And he was like, okay. And I was like, I'm done.

Here I am throwing all these lofty ideas out. I'll never get this job. I go home. I'm on Zoom, so I just click off. And I go, well, that was nice. I came close. Closer than any, by the way, closer than any Ghanaian ever has.

You know, $100 million feature film. I mean, come on. No one where I'm from has had this shot. So I was like, if I can just brag about this alone, that's good. I've come far. Then comes a call. Hey, Oprah would like to talk to you about your ideas. The Oprah?

Man, shit. I was in Ghana watching Oprah with my mom, by the way. Yeah. Anyway, so I go, well, I'll take the call. Yeah. I take it. Blanche, I heard you've got this idea. Da-da-da.

You know, so, ooh. Get into pitch mode. You're on Zoom with her? I'm on Zoom. I mean, this is deep COVID. This is COVID. I mean, I'm like secretly trying to screenshot. Again, if this is the furthest I'm going to come, Mike, I'm not going to fuck it up.

You got the screenshot? I'm going to have some. I can't admit to that on a podcast. But I'll tell you what. I was like, you know what? Again, the furthest I'm going to come, incredible. I've come far. I talked to Oprah about my ideas.

Yeah. And she hangs up. We all go. And then it's like, by the way, this is happening. This is a Monday. This is a Monday. Yeah. On a Tuesday, I'm talking to Oprah.

Now, my agent calls me. Hey, Oprah really likes your pitch. She wants you to talk to Steven about it. Yeah. I go, you know, Spielberg? I mean, that Steven? A lot of Stevens now. Sure.

You got to be sure which one they're talking about. Yeah. So I get on with Steven. Yeah. Same. He goes, Blitz, I heard you got an idea. Yeah. I would love to hear it. Oh, I get in a pitch mood.

I'm showing him sketch after sketch, and this is what I'm going to do. Boom, bam, bam. I do my whole goes that's fantastic he goes i think you're the man for the job yeah i go what and by the way i'm talking listen i'm after each of these zooms i have to go walk the block sure because i because it's literally you got remember, this is like when we were all confined. Well, it's good because, you know, you got these meetings pretty quick because no one had anything to do. That's it. Yeah. That's it.

We're home. Yeah. Waiting to be scheduled on a Zoom. Yeah, yeah. So then the last thing now becomes, I think you should pitch it to the studio. Wow. So now I'm like, okay, again, guys, if this is the furthest. But you got a couple, you got got a couple big names in your court.

Already now. Going to the studio. And this is, I'll give it a shout out to Toby Amrick because he goes, Blitz, if Steven, Oprah, and Scott say you're the man for the job, you're the man for the job. Yeah, he's not going to take any blame. He goes, just tell me what you're going to do. Right. I go, wow.

So you kind of got the job. In a week. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But, I mean, you know, then the hard work begun. Because now it's one thing to talk shit about how you're going to create an imagination. It's other things how you're going to do it.

Well, what was those sketches outside of the gramophone i mean it was it was you know that um that you know you know 40 piece orchestra oh yeah yeah yeah wow i gotta push that envelope yeah it was the tree all these people around the sure sure that last shot yeah last shot it was all these things you know that i was like it's a photograph i was like we're gonna push into the photo and then you know get to the other side of it when it's getting taken. All of these, like. That's some of the stuff in your painting, too, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Picture in a picture. Yeah. You know, that's another way to collapse time for me. I love that concept. Yeah. You know, how do you get into the world, right? Right.

Because you got the photograph, right? And then even in the paintings that you do, the few I saw that were available online, there's something interesting about the old photograph and the same place you come back into in the present. Yeah. Empty. Cyclical. Yeah. Cyclical. The same work.

And so, I mean, it was incredible. But once I started putting my team together yeah starting with fatima robinson my choreographer yeah fatima is a genius here's the thing when i was what she done oh what hasn't she done michael jackson's remember the time oh yeah geez all the alia oh yeah okay i mean she was a yeah she's a master. And I knew that this is going to be a ballet of sorts. The camera and the choreography. So those were the first two, Fatima and Dan Lawson. Once I knew I had Dan, because I'd seen Dan's work.

He'd done the big John Wick stuff, but he also done Shape of Water with Guillermo. He had done Nightmare Alley with Guillermo. So I knew the guy could do deep, intimate stuff. Sure, and he also knew his way around whatever you wanted. Yes. So I brought him in, and man. And then I brought Paul Astaberry, who had won the Oscar for The Shape of Water production design. And I love his work because it's very tactile.

It's very real. It's immersive. The way I like to make film. So I brought them together, and I brought Francine, who's my costume. Francine had worked on Steven Spielberg's film. Yeah. On The Color Purple? In the 1980s.

Yeah, in the 80s. Yeah. As an assistant costumer. Oh. So I brought her in as my lead now. She's amazing. I mean, those costumes. Great.

Out of this world. Yeah. Once I got that clique together, and I got the cast, it wasn't easy. Getting, advocating for Fantasia, advocating for Taraji, Daniel Brooks, Coleman Domingo. You even got old Dion in there. I got Dion. Got a comic playing a heavy. Oh, my goodness.

And how incredible is that guy? Yeah. What? Yeah. In a heavy. Oh, my goodness. And how incredible is that guy? Yeah.

What? Yeah. You know, what I loved was the myriad of experience. I mean, I had a Lou Gossett Jr. That's crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. Right? I mean, was he even really actively working?

Probably not. But he came out. He was like, Blitz, I'm not missing this. Yeah, he's great. Oh, he was incredible. He had all the funny lines. How old is he in real life? Geez, that man's'm not missing this. Yeah, he's great. Oh, he was incredible. He had all the funny lines. How old is he in real life? Geez, that man's got to be 90. Yeah, crazy.

You know? Yeah. He was phenomenal. Yeah. But I was lucky to land that cast because that cast became, you know, and I always say this. I cast aura. Yeah. I don't cast, you know, people say, you know, cast this talent.

I don't know. I don't cast, you know, people say, you know, cast his talent. I don't know. I don't know enough to know anything about that. I just know that when I see this person and that person together. Feel a certain way. Does it fit? Does the chemistry work? Yeah. And so it was so good to start to see these chemistries start to work.

Coleman, his size, his aura, his vibe. He played Mister? Mister. Yeah, that's a heavy role, man. Incredible. And his arc? Mister. Yeah, that's a heavy role, man. Incredible. And his arc? Unfathomable. Unfathomable because he's the charming devil.

Yeah. Right? Classic. But then somehow or another, you are capable of empathy. Empathy. Yeah. And that was work. I mean, again, that's like going into the layers. But that's the beauty. Because Glover played him heavy. Heavy. Yeah. And that was work. I mean, again, that's like going into the layers. But that's the beauty.

Because Glover played him heavy. Heavy. Yeah. You know? And again, it's all nuancing, right? I mean, that was the first thing Coleman and I talked about. We're going to make him human, fully human. That means he's going to go through all, the entire arc.

He'll be charming. He'll be funny. He'll be goofy. But he'll also be evil. Yeah. Because, again, we're all capable of that entire arc. But also you kind of grounded the evil with the father early, with Dion's character, relentlessly evil. Yeah. No depth.

Yes. Yes. So that was, you know, and that was the foundation. Yes. Right. So you had somewhere to go. And I think one of my most favorite shots yeah

is at that Easter table when everybody flees and we are just the camera just lingers yeah and you see Mr. at one side and old Mr.

at the other side right and you just sit and what you're seeing is generational trauma yeah what we're seeing is the understanding

on how this man became who he is we also put a banjo in his hand, which humanizes him. If you notice, he was the only one without a song. He was the only one always trying to find a song, always plucking away.

Oh, from the beginning. From the beginning. Yeah, never, yeah. He never landed on his song. He just was always just trying. Everybody else belted out. He was always just plucking at it. Right.

And I think that was the beauty for having a master like Coleman. Yeah. Right? It's like someone who could play that off. But also, I mean, Shug Avery. Yeah. You have a veteran like Taraji. Yeah.

Who, when I met, you know, I had to, you know, same, I had to convince her. I was like, look, you've got it. You've got, you can do it all. Only convince her because she didn't know if she was right for it. Yeah. And it was, it was all about the singing. I've interviewed her. She's great.

She's like the best. The best. Yeah. And I said, Taraji, just surrender to this thing. You got it. Yeah. And, and I mean, she comes up that barge. Yeah.

That dread, red dress. The best. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's up that barge, that red dress. The best. Yes. Yeah. That was all worth it. But it's interesting, like, you know, because I don't remember, like, I read the book a long time ago, and I kind of remember certain scenes in the film. I did not see the musical, but I didn't really realize that there are no white people in this movie, except for the bad ones. Except for Miss Millie. Right. Who's amazing. I mean, we do for the bad ones. Except for Miss Millie.

Right. Who's amazing. I mean, we do have the postman. He's nice. Right, but this is like, you know, that to keep it around, because you don't even feel the presence of it. No, no, no, no, no, no.

It's very insular. And Miss Millie's got to carry the whole weight of reconstruction and racism in her seemingly decent shell. Yes, yes. I mean, which I think, for me, two things. One is I loved the fact that we could just stay in this community

and just deal with this very domestic but also global, right? Because what Suge does is Suge brings the outside world. I mean, Suge's the reason we go to the movie theater. She's the reason we go to the juke joint. The reason we go to Memphis. Like all these things that just kind of, she gives us this outer world. And so we didn't need much else, right? Yeah, but it was great because like there's no, what's almost

always sort of played against it is that it's all being facilitated by white people. Yeah. So none of that, you know, that conversation doesn't happen so these people can exist in a type of community that it may be in the shadow of that, but it is,

it's not spoken. No, no, no, no, no. Not at all. And again, I- Was that a choice or was that the way it was? It was a choice. I mean, you know what I mean?

Again, all these things, it's like the white gaze, you know? Right. It's like, you know, the color purple is an insular text. Alice Walker wrote it inspired by her ancestors. They were very insular.

And the only reason to step outside of that community is what happens when these people who are in this community have to venture into a world that they're not in. And Dan and I were very specific.

And Paul, the intimidation that we were going to create just by the visual landscape we were going to choose. Like when that car drives into where Miss Millie is, that gas station, we chose tall. But we hadn't seen anywhere like it before. And I start on a wide. Yeah. To establish that, guys, this thing is not good. We start to feel uncomfortable as an audience. Because we're like, I've never seen any of this before.

Yeah. I've never seen. So it's clear that these people have moved away from their safety and their comfort. Yeah. So when the encounter with Miss Milly happens, it's like, oh, shit. That's what the white gaze gets you. That's what it is, right? And that particular device is something you've used

in almost all your films. Absolutely. The journey. The journey. Away from the village. Yes. Right. Yes, and I find that also because, again,

my family's from a village. Yeah. And I know the challenges we've suffered by being outside, by that migration, personally, communally. You know, the other thing about the village is that everybody cares for the village. Yeah. In the city, each man and woman for they self. Right. And that's why you go to villages, they're clean and organized.

You come to the cities, they're filthy and disorganized. But the sad reality is that everybody thinks the city is where life is at. Right. Right? And so this constant, you know, urban influx. Yeah. You know, it's kind of what starts to happen. And same thing happens with, you know, they're going to get ice cream

in this nice white part of town. Oh shit, now here we are. And I think that ultimately for me as a filmmaker, you also realize you've been telling the same story over and over again. They're just different forms, different vibes,

different colors, different shapes. But it's ultimately the same story. It's how do people deal internally with their traumas and challenges and how does the physical migration from rural to urban affect the psyche and the community. That ultimately, I think, every film, I mean, even Black is King's the same. This kid, you know, flees, goes to the city. Oh, boy, here comes all the temptations.

Now look at him. Now he has to find his way back. And for me, that journey, finding your way back, when Celie goes back... Yeah, she goes back, but she's informed and she has self-ownership. Yes, yes. Which is also, I mean, that was me coming to Americaica i mean it's always it's the same thing right it's like oh boy you know i i i moved to new

york because i wanted to be in it and then you go oh boy once you get what you want also you got to know when you have it yeah you go okay now it's time to get out but right but self-realized and self-actualized to the point where when you have the final scene and Mister's in those pants, that's Sealy. Fantasia plays that kind of beautifully. Yes.

That, you know, you're as an audience member, you know this history and in your mind, you're like, how do you ever forgive or accept

or move on? But the village is powerful. The village. In the sense where she goes, all she says is, I can't believe you wore those pants. Yes. And then, you know, the empathy portal is open and people can change. Yes. Yes.

Which is, I think, you know, radical forgiveness. Yeah. Man, and accountability. I mean, those are the two things that all this work is about. But in that scene at that table with the two generations of the monsters, you're waiting for that scene. Yeah. Because I remember, like, you know,

I don't remember exactly the movie scene with Oprah, but the way that she played Sophie, what's her name? Sophia. The actress? Daniel Brooks. Yeah. Yes. I mean, like, that was crazy.

It was incredible. The insanity of, like, her self-assuredness before she gets beaten. Yes. And then what happens to her. And I know that's in the movie, too, and it's in the book. But, you know, that's a hard moment to play, you know. And in the movie, Spielberg's movie, he really made Oprah disfigured. Yeah.

But. I didn't do that. No. I didn't do that. Because the scars are in something. That's right. Because she played that. And that was some fucking acting.

It was incredible. And that turn was great. I mean, I've seen people go from that laugh to that cry. I mean, I've. Oh, yeah. Listen, I watch it all. I've never seen that. Yeah.

Now, that is some,, I watch it all. I've never seen that. Now that, that is some mass, that's a masterclass. And I, again, I got to say, that scene had to be the hardest scene to shoot. I mean, first of all,

any dinner scene with eight people, you're asking for it. Eating's the worst. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you're asking for it. But I think, because everybody's thinking like, where was it in the bite?

Yes, it's exactly that. Oh, then we also had COVID strike four times. We're trying to do that scene. So you think about it. We always had to reset, come back three days later, come back four days later when people had recovered from COVID. So sometimes we had to shoot with stand-ins.

It's a miracle. When I watch that scene, I go, John Poe, my editor, is a genius. Because to assemble that out of that many different days, and also Dan Lawson's light as consistent. Yeah. Whoa. You know?

But that was something we did a lot. Not in the studio either? We were on a lot. Okay, you were. Okay, that's good. We were on stage for that. Yeah, a little control over that. Yeah, we definitely had control. Because that's the turning point. That's good. We were on stage for that. Yeah, a little control over that. Yeah, we definitely had control.

Because that's the turning point. That's massive. That's the beginning of the third act, basically, right? That's massive. Yeah. Massive. It had to happen. Yeah.

This way she breaks free. But again, I mean, I have to say, it's really the amalgam of talent. You know, when you look at, I mean, a film is always that, right? It's like the ultimate team sport. You go, yeah, sure, great. You have a great defensive, you know, player. But if your strikers and your midfielders are no good, you know, you're going to struggle.

And so it's like I was just lucky and really fortunate to have across the board some of the most incredible humans first, that story is part of them. Facts. That's a fact. So, you know, the honor and also the intimidation to rise to the occasion to do justice to that story. Yeah. So that is in of itself a challenge, but because there is

that commonality of wanting to get to the core of that thing. Yes. I mean, it was, I'll tell you what, man. I had to just say to myself, we're not remaking the color. I mean, first of all, you cannot compete with nostalgia. Right.

Because people aren't talking about the movie. Right. They're talking about their grandmother who passed away. That was her favorite movie that they used to watch every Sunday. Oh, that premiere dude, he had the two casts from the musical. And one was in it, Fantasia. And Millie had watched it. You saw that?

I saw it all. You saw that? Saw it all. So again, you go, you have to decide that you are making an original film

based on familiar characters, based on a familiar story. You don't watch Stephen's film. I didn't. The minute I got the job, I said, it's somewhere deep in the crevices in my heart. Yeah.

Great. That's where it stays. Yeah. The thing I did read a lot, though, was Alice's book. Of course. Because that's abstract. And I could, between the poetry, I could find myself in it. Right.

But ultimately, it was really about choosing an edge and deciding that we're going to make an original film. Right. Now, it was going to encapsulate a few things. One, visually, we had to set ourselves apart. Yeah. And this is where Dan Lawson and I talked a bunch. We first decided, okay, first of all, you cannot, we cannot shoot a period film the way we're used to seeing them,

which is, you know, seep your tone and fade. You know, you can't do that. One, I think it's a false equivalent in that people use photographs that have survived, I don't know, 100 years as the references, which is deceptive because the reality is that these people lived in color. We had to push into the photographs. And it was even more vibrant if you think about it.

Sure. There wasn't ACs. The kinds of lights that existed were warm and broad day and southern light. So things were vivid. So Dan and I decided very early that we were going to lean into like forget about how we think about period films we're going to lean into what it really was to make it now make it now so that was one the second thing was musically right how are we going to make sure that not only are we and this is where now i can go back to all those years of

making music yeah because one thing i know, playing, I don't know, I've lost count, hundreds if not thousands of shows. Yeah. Over my entire musical career. The trying. Yes, the trying. One thing I learned is that music doesn't come out the sky. Yeah.

Right? And certainly black music does not come out the sky. I mean, if you go from the spirituals that became gospel, gospel that becomes blues, blues that become jazz, and births everything else, the music always has a source. You know, is it, you know, does the drummer start it off? You know? Right.

Does the bassist, you know, do-doom-doom. Like, it always has something. Or the voice. The voice. You know, does the voice just lead? You know, what is it? It's all in there. So that's what we leaned into, was always going, what's diegetic that can kick this off?

Because I watched almost every musical in existence. I mean, I was like, I mean, I got to tell you, that's hard. In preparation. In preparation. I mean, so many of them are not good. Some great ones. Yeah. Some great ones. Yeah. Some great ones.

And the ones that were great, the reason I think they were great was that they always had a source. Yeah. An American in Paris. Oh, boy. Gene Kelly. Way into music. And I was like, those are the ones. That's the kind of musical I want to make.

Yeah. From the opening shot, the horse's hoofs. Yeah. That build a cadence. That's right. Little banjo. Yeah. Little patty cake.

Yeah. Okay, now here comes the music. Guys building the house. Yeah. Or putting up posters. Yeah. Oh, hammers. Okay, we can turn that into, so that's how we went into making.

And that's essentially cinematic. You're not doing that on stage. No, you're not. Right. Exactly. Because you can just, they're there. They're there. It's a visceral experience.

Exactly. So how do you bring them into the visceral experience visually? Visually. That's what it became about. And I think those were the things fundamentally that Dan and I and the whole gang, Fatima, Robbs, we were always going, how can we make this lived in? When I split up the music into three parts, gospel, blues, and jazz, I went out, I found Ricky Dillard, who is a gospel aficionado. I found Keb Moe, who's a blues man.

I brought in Christian McBride on jazz. And I got these three guys together. I said, guys, this music we've gotten from Broadway. It's great for Broadway, but we've got to make it lived in. People have to feel like this thing is coming out of the souls of these people. How are you going to do that? And I mean, having those masters, phenomenal. And that's how we arrive here. Well, that's interesting because you had complete faith in the ensemble's emotional capacity to do the humanity of the parts.

So then you can like go, all right, that's set. That's it. So now we do this. Yes. Then how do you approach the dance? Yes. Same way? Same way.

Fatima and I sat through it and we said, listen, because I had this whole concept around, first of all, scale. Yeah. We were going to make the biggest version of this property as it's ever existed. Yeah. Proximity to audience today. You can't make a musical set 100 years ago and nobody have a way in. You have to be proximate to audience.

But you didn't cheat. No. No. You know what it is? Because you're looking at the continuum. What you're saying is what has survived? Right. Because, you know, African-American life, history, and culture is an ongoing thing.

Yeah. The dances these kids do today that they think they're inventing, no, dude. It goes back. Sure. So the thing is, you know, some of the fashion style. I mean, Mr. Hat. I remember I went in the truck and I said, guys, we only want stuff that I think is cool to wear today. If I'm

going to steal something off this truck and go rock tonight to a party, that's what we're using. So that's what I want you to find me. I don't want you to find me, yeah, it's period correct. Great. Everything's going to be period correct, but find what's cool. Find what's cool.

But you didn't do that dumb trick with dialogue or rhythm or anything else where you sort of all of a sudden you're out of it because like they wouldn't say no exactly no we were very on it yeah it was but it but the thing and an authenticity was my last pillar yeah spa scale proximity and authenticity authenticity was always going to keep us in check so that that's kind of what you're saying. So sometimes I go, it was always about passing it between Francine on costumes,

Dan on cinematography, Paul and Fatima. And then some, so one person takes proximity. So maybe Fatima might add a dance move that feels current.

Yeah. Good for you. But then in that, Francine's got to make sure we're authentic. Right. And Dan's got to make sure we got scale., Francine's got to make sure we're authentic. Right. And Dan's got to make sure we got scale. Yeah.

Paul's got to make sure. So it was literally, in every meeting we'll have, I'll go, who's taking scale? Really? Okay. Who's taking proximity? Yeah. Who's taking authenticity? Yeah.

Because every shot has to have all three. Yeah. All the time. Yeah. It's the only way you can make something that resonates today but feels authentic and grounded yeah and yet still feels like the biggest thing you're watching right again the other thing is remember cd's life is a life on a farm ultimately yeah it's a very you know it's a small world ultimately how do you make that world expansive and epic? Well, that comes from how do you deal with our headspace?

How do you deal with environments? Her need to escape. Her need to escape. That's it. Escapism. Right? And I found that that was the great mix of having all these people working in harmony, trying to find this end goal. Yeah.

And it came out beautiful. Moving. Thank you. A lot of crying. Oof. And, you know, the audience was engaged. How do you find it with every screening? It's magical.

Listen, it's even crazy. I was just in Brazil. And, you know, you go to Brazil, and you go, well, it's not in England. I mean, it's not in Portuguese. Right. Okay. You know, some tough titles,. Well, it's not in England. I mean, it's not in Portuguese. Right. Okay. You know, some tough titles, but they're probably going to miss most of the jokes.

Yeah. They'll probably miss a lot of it. Dude, blew my mind. They got it. Laughed at everything. Sure. Cried at everything. Gasped.

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. And then you go, boy, this thing's working. Yeah. And every room I've been in, I hear it all. Yeah. working yeah and every room i've been in i hear it i hear it all yeah and what a what if i couldn't i couldn't have imagined it but somehow too i was like i was like it's the only version to make yeah you know what i mean well i mean it's not like you couldn't have imagined it but you did

kind of right it's crazy no no you i mean you Not only did you imagine it, you had a plan, and you put the infrastructure in place with the people that you could trust who were brilliant, and you manifested the plan. That's it. Wow. Good job. Thank you. I'm still in wonderment, honestly.

It is. And every time I get to talk about it with my cast yeah and the emotion and i'm also realizing what this means to them yeah you know fantasia being written off done yeah oh american idol she'll never amount to anything yeah and watching her have a moment right now oh she was so good the acting and the singing. That's the other trick is that, you know, Megan, you know, she knew how to sing real. Yes. Yeah.

So that was in place. Yes. Same with Millie. Yes. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. Really, really fortunate.

Great job, man. And it was good talking to you. Oh, it's amazing. Thank you for having me, man. Yeah, buddy. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. I love that guy.

Man, we had it going. Got on a nice groove there. The Color Purple opens in theaters on Monday, December 25th. Hang out for a minute, folks. Thanks. To let you know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Folks, now it's time to catch up on Full Marin episodes if you're a new subscriber or if you haven't signed up yet. Go check out our talk about some of the problematic episodes from our past. That's Archive Deep Dive from August 15th. I just ordered a copy of Crimes and Misdemeanors

by Woody Allen. And, you know, Iors by woody allen and you know i know what woody allen did and i know where he stands in the world but i don't know that i can separate that movie being a masterpiece you know from who he is yeah but it it's still like it's still part of me that's right and my my belief in in that piece of Yes. And I think this speaks to the ideas that we're talking about here about leaving things up. That you can't, you know, for whatever reason, whether it's right or left reasons

or ethics or whatnot, erasing history generally is not a great idea. That's right. Yeah. Right, but that's the thing. It's like, I'm never, obviously never going to go erase this Louis episode, but if I went unannounced and reposted it today,

so it's the first thing that shows up in your podcast feed tomorrow, it would be loaded. That's a statement in and of itself, to just put that episode back out there without context. But is it, though, if you just date it? But that's what it would need. It would need more than just to have the date on it. It would have to have like,

we're putting this up there because we still consider it the best episode. Right. But also like, no matter what you do, people are going to have their feelings, perceptions, and beliefs about that person. And they're going to bring that to the episode. And that's just going to be the way it's going to be.

We have two bonus episodes every week. So sign up by going to bring that to the episode. And that's just going to be the way it's going to be. We have two bonus episodes every week. So sign up by going to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod dot com and click on WTF plus. And speaking of the full Marin next week, we have a mark on movies Christmas Day special. We'll have a collection of some of the movie talk we've done in the past year. Some of the movie talk we've done in the past year. Then on Thursday, my old friend, Matt B. Davis, who's a comedian who I knew many years ago, were both sober guys. He went into the obstacle race game and he made a documentary about that. But we also had some personal stuff we had to deal with. Very kind of engaged episode between a couple of guys that took different paths,

but were once on the same one, kind of getting some shit straight. Exciting. Yeah. Matt B. Davis on Thursday. Okay. Here's some pretty simple guitar that just made me feel nice. ¶¶ Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.