WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1499 - Matt B. Davis

Episode Date: December 28, 2023

Matt B. Davis is unique among WTF guests in that he did comedy for more than a decade, got out of the business and never wanted back in. Matt and Marc talk about how they got to know each other as comics, how they've helped each other in sobriety, and how Matt found a second career within the obstacle racing community. But then the conversation hits an obstacle of its own, as both Matt and Marc try to deal with a roadblock that's interfering with their friendship. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel to show your true heart is to risk your life when I die here you'll never leave

Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? How's it going? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. If you're new here, imagine there's a few people here that have never listened before and they're listening for the guest on the show. Perhaps you're part of the obstacle running community, but that is really not obstacle racing. Sorry. That's not really what brought him to the show. I mean, I think from his point of view, it's what brought him to the show, but it's not why I know him. His name is Matt B. Davis, and he was a comedian, and he's one of the founders of Obstacle Racing Media.

He wrote a book about obstacle races and mud runs called Down and Dirty, and he hosts the Obstacle Racing Media podcast. And I've known him for years. This is a guy that used to do comedy. You know, he was going for it back in the day. He was of my second wife's generation. So I guess he's probably a decade and change younger than me, but he lives in Atlanta and I always see him when I go out there and we hang out a minute, have a meal, talk the talk

a bit. Sober guy as well, but he really wanted to do the show. And I thought, well, this is a conversation we've only had a couple of times, really the conversation with somebody who quit comedy and moved on to other things. So that's going to happen for you. You will hear that. It's, it's a little more complicated than that. I'll try to explain more in a few minutes. Tom Smothers died at his home in Santa Rosa, California, here in California, at age 86. I talked with Tom and his brother Dick in Sonoma at the end of 2021. That was episode 1293, which aired on January 3rd, 2022. You can still listen to it in your free podcast feed,

The Legends. Rest in peace, Tommy. It was an honor to talk to those guys. Also, another thing, happy birthday to Teresa Ventura from Queens. She's a devoted listener and she had a really rough week. Have a great day tomorrow, Teresa. Glad to hear

your cats, Cookie and Sylvester, are doing okay. Sorry for your trouble. I'm at Dynasty Typewriter tonight, and then I'm at Largo on Tuesday, January 9th. San Diego, I'm at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows. San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. Portland, Maine. I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts. Outside Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. And I'll be in Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of

the Moon Tower Comedy Festival. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets. for tickets. So some of you know, I went out to New Mexico to see my father, Dr. Barry Marin and his wife, Rosie, and we had some quality time. Apparently, I get the good behavior. That's where he's at in his mental ailment is that when I show up, he does everything he can from the deepest part of him to behave like there's nothing wrong with him. But I know there is. But it's nice. It fools me. It fools me into thinking like he's doing okay, which he is.

And it's good to see him. And, again, always grateful that Rosie is taking care of him. But, you know, it's an interesting thing that I realize. And it's something that, I don't know, maybe many of you have heard me talk about, you know, where I sort of have a story about why I'm funny and why I chose stand-up. And one of the reasons I cite is my dad was a depressive, bipolar-ish kind of guy. And he'd go through lengthy periods of depression. And my mother would say to me, you know, go upstairs and make him laugh. You're the only one who can.

Ooh, tough crowd. Tough crowd, I tell you. I tell you, tough crowd. Come on, where's my Rodney? Oh, what is this? Oh, let me tell you. Tough crowd. tough crowd. I tell you, I tell you a tough crowd. Come on. Where's my Rodney? Oh, what is this? Oh, let me tell you a tough crowd. All right. So I can't find my Rodney, but, but that's a story I tell. And that in my mind is a reality. Now what's happening now is, you know, as he drifts mentally and, and is confused and, uh, lethargic to a degree, not motivated, doesn't want to engage in life much. Although Rosie tries to get him to is that, you know, I think what's happening is that like when I come out, it energizes him. And I think she she she appreciates that.

So, you know, I I think that I'm kind of in the same position again. I think I got to start talking to him more just so her life isn't hell and that his life is a little better. I think, I guess a lot of people after a certain age, when their parents get to a certain age, probably reach out at least once a day, once every day you may i mean how hard is it we'll see but i'm going to try to uh be the medicine for my father's diminishing will to engage in the world and i guess this is you know i'm 60 you know i'm not uh i'm not 20 i'm'm not 15. I mean, this is sort of a codependent thing. It's not my responsibility necessarily, but is it an easy thing for me to check in with the old man and turn his day around before he drifts away? No, it's not. Can I go out there a little more? Sure. And is it emotionally

important for me to spend time with him in his decline? I would say yes, because what's left of him, what's left of his mind and his ego is essentially that. And it's all very familiar to me. He's got a lot of old memories. The memories are fragmented. Again, it's stuff that was recent that goes away quicker. And sometimes he gets confused about daily tasks. But what's left of my dad in terms of who he is, is pretty consistent. And I think I might've forgotten it had I not spent this time with him. Like, for example, I'll give you some quotes. Like he's like, I'm bored. I'm bored all the time. And I said, well, what do you want to do? He's like, nothing. I'm like, well, that's a tricky position to be in. And then there's other times where he's

like, you know, I dare somebody to mug me. If they try to mug me, I'm going to grab their hair. That was an interesting one. Usually it's guns or knives. He's talking about stabbing people and shooting people. But he's always had this bravado. He always likes to be provocative, you know, and that's there. All that's in place. The I'm bored. What do you want to do? Nothing. That's good. It's good to know that because, you know, who doesn't have that a little of that and also murderous rage? Who doesn't have that? I mean, it's more Murderous Rage fantasies. Always has been. Who doesn't have that? But it's good to check in with that.

But I think the one that really struck me, and I think it's very consistent with him, is we go to Rosie's family's Christmas party. And there's a lot of people there in her family. Probably about 40, 45, or maybe, yeah, that seems about right. Maybe, maybe 30 to 40. I don't know. But after the party or towards the end of it, there's a big group picture, right? And everybody has to go out in the backyard and it was chilly, but, uh, and then somebody, Rosie got up on a balcony above and takes this big group picture. My dad, I was walking out and my dad's just sitting by himself in the room with all the tables

and i'm like what are you doing he's like i'm sitting here and i'm like well you want to come out for the picture he goes no and i go why not and he said who gives a fuck and i'm like hey that's my dad who gives a fuck marin there he is fuck, Marin. Who gives a fuck, Marin? That's bullshit, Marin. Those are my dad's catchphrases. They're all still there, I'm happy to say. This Christmas season, they're all still there. All right, so listen. Matt B. Davis, old friend of mine.

And this conversation got a little intense because we have a long history and there's always been something that bothered me about our friendship and about him. And this is just one of those situations where we don't do it much on the show, where we don't do it much on the show, but it's here and it's now. And he wanted to do this because he wanted to promote his documentary, which is called The World's Toughest Mudder, The Hardest 100-Mile Race,

which I watched. And without any context of obstacle racing, I now know what it is. But I was like, all right. So I thought that there was a deeper conversation to have about leaving comedy, about friendship, about promotion in a way. But ultimately, some of the stuff

that always bothered me about him, I called him on it And he called me on a little bit as well So, this is me and Matt He came out from Atlanta to see me when I was performing in St. Louis And we recorded it in my hotel This is me and Matt B. Davis in St. Louis. Not that that's important, but this is St. Louis. If you can hear it, maybe hear the room. It's St. Louis. Okay. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode

on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun.

A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. So you made the trip. That's a big deal. You flew from Atlanta to St. Louis to be on this show. Well, you know this thought I had? Oh, no. I said to my wife, Stacy, that you know.

I said, you know, in terms of reaching an audience, it's kind of the equivalent of doing the late night shows in the old days. Maybe. In terms of reaching a number of people. It's the closest I'll get to the tonight show how about that is being on this show the currently 28th most popular comedy podcast if you believe in apple and all that stuff you looked it up i was just for the fuck of it i was like yeah that's amazing that it's still that high no that's what i was that's what i was like it's like it's this many years in and there's so many fucking podcasts well there is a a fairly efficient rating system

it's not apple but the edson ratings which kind of really somehow quantify active listeners and we're still up around 22 to 24 i mean we're up there out of all of them it's great well right and half the shows that are above you won't be around in a few years. Or they're dug in. You know what I mean? Some of them are just big shows. What are you going to do? Well, right.

But in terms of like, I think you're still, Marin is still like, you could just say to someone casually that you know listens to anything related to comedy, pop culture, or podcast. You could say, oh, I was listening on Marin the other day, and they wouldn't go, what? Who? Well,

I don't know. I would say there's a fairly large part of the population that would say that, but I'll take it. How about people that I know? There you go. That's fine.

People in my immediate sphere. But let me ask you something. So, like, and I'm not being glib or condescending. You are 100% about to be condescending to me, which we're going to talk about, by the way. Well'll i'll have i have no problem talking about whatever you think i am and then i'll share your particular problem that i also register okay do you want to start

with that no i just want no i just want to know like so if you were to go on the tonight show yes what what we're for where are we plugging the doc is that what oh no i just mean in terms of like general it just yeah just like i you know because i never i never got to do jay or johnny and so this is the closest i'll come to being on a mainstream television program okay because, because I watched the doc. Okay. We don't need to start there. I'd rather go back. Right.

But I will say this. Did you get any, like, did you show some people and say, what do you think, before you put it on YouTube? Wow. Is that? Wow. Man. Not for the reasons you think I'm not saying it's a bad doc

I mean it was good Soundtrack was good But I as a person Who doesn't know About that world I had questions Let's save those So you never did

The Tonight Show Or the other ones because like let's be honest i'm trying to remember how long did you actually do stand-up one of the reasons you're here is it's very i've been trying to find somebody who uh who quit or or not so much quit but but did something else right you know You know, for a long time. Right. I don't think I've talked to anybody. I tried once with Billy Braver, and it turns out he wanted to get back in.

Yeah, I definitely do not want to get back in. So let's call it 10 years. Let's call it 96 to 06. So you were in it doing stand-up for 10 years. Yes. And you knew me right in the heart of me really caring. And at one point in my life thinking that's all that was going to happen. I was going to get on Johnny Carson or –

Sure. Obviously, Johnny was gone. But you know what I mean? Yeah, we were gunning for the same thing. Right. And you were kind enough to like – as our paths crossed, you were kind enough to give me time, like when I saw you in Florida and some other random place.

Yeah, I mean, right. Oh, my God. I'm trying to put it all together. But you grew up somewhere weird, right? So I was born in Boston, but I grew up in Atlanta. Oh, so you actually went home. Well, I moved, when I started comedy, I started in Boston in 96,

which is why I always love listening to your Boston comic shows because- In 96? Right. So what was that, the Burr period, the Patrice period? So those guys were already in New York. Really? I came up with Gary.

Gary Goldman was probably like my only compatriot or that you would know. I just talked to him two days ago. I just saw him the day before yesterday. Right. Because he's back around. And I hadn't talked to him a long time, not since the psych ward. And I watched him as a young comic in Boston and was like, this guy is doing it right.

Right. He's clean. Right? Yeah. He's like, people like him. He's not an asshole to people. Yeah. And he works his ass off.

Yeah. So I'm like, he's going to make it. He's one of the guys that's going to make it. That was my thought. Who else was there? So the only other people that I thought, that felt that strongly about were one guy named Dwayne Perkins, who's still doing standup. And this guy, Chris McGuire, who I think wrote on a bunch of shows, but never quite.

I knew Chris McGuire. But if I knew that Dwayne and Gary were super clean and worked there, why didn't I just do that? Like I should have followed what I knew was good. Well, what did you do? Dick Doherty gigs? Yeah, of course. course okay i didn't realize that you had this background so you know you knew dick we've had some of these conversations but you've forgotten over the years it's fine i mean of course i did but so you're in boston for how many years so boston from 96 to 99 and you're

doing those one-nighters doing the one-nightnighters out in the middle of like... Opening for who? Oh, just name a Boston comic. Mike McDonald? Maybe not. Maybe once. George McDonald? Maybe once. Don Gavin? Don Gavin. Sweetie? Joe Yannetti? Yeah. Kevin Knox? Knoxie.

R.I.P. Chance Langton? Maybe R.I.P.? Chance? Is Chance still alive? Who the fuck knows, man? DJ Hazardard DJ was great and his Subaru Brett he drove around that little Subaru Brett giant man yeah I did I did all that all those like again whenever you talk

to the Boston comics I mean it's it's funny you mentioned Burr I knew he was good but if you had said to me five years ago or ten years ago like he's gonna be like guy, I would have been like, really? Well, he's one of those guys that came up quick, and then he got big opportunities, and he wasn't quite ready for them, and then went back to the drawing board and just focused on comedy and became the guy he is now.

Yeah. Found his voice. He's upset about things, Bill. A few things, yes. He's the loud complainer. Is that what you see him as, the loud complainer? Well, I think there's always... You were a loud complainer. Not really.

I was always sort of a little more introspective, and it was not relatable complaining. It was very heady. I think Bill has found a world where he's a crank. He's a very animated manic crank. And he's got problems with his wife, with the kids, with the car, with the bank. But it's a specific type of voice. Not everybody does it well.

There's not that many cranks around that are funny at any given time. That know how to do it. Yeah. That know how to do it yeah like that know how to do it yeah it was black as a crank there's not that many legendary crank lewis black great open open for him once in atlanta but not off stage off stage very funny guy sweet guy right not that cranky right so you're doing it you're doing the one-nighters you're drinking yes but not on stage because I always thought that was like cheating, right? Like, dude, you should go on. I did a couple of nights get hammered. I mean, everybody.

Cigarettes? Yeah, of course. No, that of course. Sure. But it was like I was like, I'm not going to drink on stage because that's like chickening out. Like I need to go up and like face the crowd. You didn't drink before? No.

I do remember one specific set doing one of dick's rooms in wusta yeah and between the first and second show it was me and john david and john david and i got plastered and then i barely remember doing the second show oh good but that's the beauty of of starting in a town like boston you can you know you can go bomb at a bar in the middle of nowhere but they'll throw 50 bucks, which is more than what people can get in a lot of cities. Sure. Sometimes you have to drive the headliner. You drive down.

It's usually anywhere from 30 miles to 150. Right. So you're running around Boston. Yes. And drinking a lot and trying to do the comedy. But you had a good half hour to open, right? No. But you had a half hour.

I mean, looking back mark i've i've had plenty of time to reflect i never worked nearly as hard as i should have huh never not even close what do you mean what do you think you need to be doing because i've had two businesses since i've had a staffing company i know but comedy is like a solitary event what what does work look like to you as a comic what were you not not doing? Because, I mean, I think that too, but eventually you figure out that I just do it the way I do it. No, no, no. I don't think I need to be Jerry Seinfeld and crafting jokes for an hour. I just mean that if you looked at what did work for me in Boston,

which is that I was hustling and I was a door guy at Nick's. You and I bonded over the door guy thing. All that stuff. You know, what's his name? Dominic died. Dominic who? The guy who ran nicks downtown i worked for his son and opened a comedy club you worked for jackie gateman son yes billy

there you go in old orchard beach maine yeah and i opened a club there it was the greatest summer of my life it was the beginning of the end of my alcoholism if you want to get to that but like wait so you're you're you're doing one-nighters, you're working at Nick's, doing little sets there with the big guys. Right. And then Bobby Gaetman? Billy. Billy Gaetman wants to open a room in Maine. Right.

A full club or a room? Just a room. Okay. But he's like, do you want to do it? Yeah. And so he gives me a little sound system and a few hundred bucks, and I go up there and I open the room. Now you're running a one-nighter. I'm running a one-nighter, but I get to be like the king of the shit beach town

because like and you're hosting yeah and and like all the comics are coming up yeah and like you know i'm just doing the you know i mean i'm like this is the greatest thing in the world like there's free beer for me now yeah that's interesting though because like it puts you in the producer's seat i would never have taken that job. It was just because... All I had to do was turn the mic on, though. I know, but you had this responsibility. Dude, listen. I don't know how to have a good time, though,

so we're different people. This is a very fond memory I have. I had to call, and you order the phone line, and you order the beer. I got to hire the waitresses. You can imagine how... You at that time? Right. Hiring waitresses? Exactly. The beer truck showed up. I mean, you can imagine how, like what a- You at that time? Right.

Hiring waitresses? Exactly. Okay. The beer truck showed up, right? The Budweiser truck showed up and the doors opened. Yeah. And the guy's like, it was like, ah, like, oh my God. Yeah.

I'm 26 years old. Yeah. And this is my life now. Right. I'm running a- You're never gonna leave Maine. I'm running a comedy club. And two months later, he was like, hey, why don't you come back down?

Oh, yeah, that was it. And then they owed me money and he didn't pay it. And I ended up getting sort of in a fight with him. It was weird. You were in a fight with those guys? No, no, no. My dad actually made a phone call, because I think my dad knew some of the-

What's your dad do? Well, my dad's just been in Boston a long time. But what's his job? My dad's like a hustler. Like, he's kind of like me. He's never had a real job. Salesman, cab driver. But did he know the nature of Nick's?

I'm saying that he said, when the shit went down with me and Billy, we were worried. And he made some calls to people, and they said, don't worry about it, Joe. It's good. Oh, really? It's all water to the face. So he was connected enough to get you off the hook? Well, it wasn't that he could get me off the hook. It wasn't something to worry about. If I had ripped the guy off, but I didn't.

Did you get your money? He owed me. No, I was owed 300 bucks, which at the time is like a lot when you're 20. Sure. And all the nice waitresses and a friend of mine helped run the door. They all owed money. I said, what do you want me to do? Wow, you got screwed, huh?

Yes. And you're up against the uh the power of uh whatever nix is involved with whatever yeah no i believe me i have a lot of memories from that all right so you're how bad did the drinking get up there so yeah so uh i had a car get stolen uh by these two girls that i tried to hook up with. I woke up, my car was gone. This is Old Orchard Beach, Maine. Old Orchard Beach, Maine. Really? I woke up, my car is gone.

And I talked to the cops. They're like, yeah, we found it. And I'm like, huh? They're like, they torched it. They torched it? That's exactly what I said, just like that. And then he said, they torched it. And I said, they torched it?

What did you do to deserve that matt they thought it would be funny to like torch your car to fuck around with the guy what this so this would happen i called my i called a friend of mine who's a lawyer right this is a great this is a great life lesson for everybody listening mark yeah i was like dude the fucking cops they know who i think they know who did it but they won't tell me and they're like matt listen whatever those girls and the guys they run with it burn your car like even if they're trash you're the worst trash of all matt because you don't belong there right i was like you're right i'm right like there goes your big shit of the beach town exactly

uh-huh you don't listen you don't belong there uh-huh right like you you have this idea of me being some sort of like cocky or overly confident so apparently that rubs people somewhat the wrong way i'm i would imagine your entire life i have a hard time believing this is the one time where that's a working example of that. It's so funny that you would say that, though, Mark. Like, you spent the whole first five years. I love people the wrong way a different way. The first five years of your show is apologizing to people.

I know. Why is that? It wasn't because I was cocky. It was because I was a dick. Okay, what's the difference? Well, sometimes cocky is you think you're having a good time. Like, you just think you're a big deal. I mean, that's different.

I didn't think that. I was just sort of intense and a little angry. And, you know, I would say things that were hurtful. It was not, you know, I would, it was not, it wasn't like I'm a big shit. You know what I mean? I wasn't a swinging dick or anything. But it's the same exact. It may come from the same place,

but I was a different kind of. Massive insecurity. Yeah, but all that. Please like me, blah, blah, blah. I don't know if it was please like me. I think it was really preemptively. I don't know. I was going to say this,

but I have to say this now. God damn it. Because now we're here. When I listen to you on the show, like when you're doing your intros and when you talk to most people, you're like really sweet. I am that way. You're endearing. Yeah. You're empathetic.

Yeah. Every text I ever send you is, fuck you, what do you want? I have to have boundaries with certain people. But how is that a boundary? It sounds like a very aggressive boundary to me like we can talk about what happened with the whole did you watch the movie yet that's one thing i'm just saying in life if i go hey mark blah blah blah it's always this curt angry fucking text back i always yeah i i do that with a couple people. Okay, so why? Because there is this part of you,

maybe we're different kinds of dicks. Maybe we are two sides of the same coin, but I always sense a kind of like totally, a little bit entitled, and a little bit sort of like dismissive on your part, just sort of like, yeah, yeah, it's great, but I'm doing my thing. Like I always felt that there was this,

it's the same cockiness, but it's a little different. And as time went on, I'm like, who the fuck does this guy think he is? Even though I know you and we've had some very good conversations, there's still this part of you that you won't laugh at certain times just to kind of hold your posture. This is just my sense of it.

You think I would not laugh at something you said just to have something on you? Well, I think it's instinctual. I don't think it's just me. But you're asking my opinion. So I consider you a friend, and I think we've had some moments where we've helped each other out, sobriety-wise and otherwise, but there is something about you

that I just want to be a little dickish. Okay. What am I supposed to be doing? Could you stop that, maybe? I guess. Could you be the sweet, engaging, I'm doing it right now. No, I know you are.

And this in itself is an act. Texting's not a great way to judge somebody. Why don't you judge on the time that i sat you down in a fucking hotel room and you told me your goddamn horrible situation that you couldn't get out of and i gave you some fairly sobering reasonable advice which you did it was a hell of a gamble but there was no other way out but you were more than willing to be sort of like this is my life now so like you know i mean why don't you judge me on that and not on texts that's okay i'm not great with the texting and the movie thing like i was gonna watch the movie there was no way i was gonna interview you and not watch i didn't think you treated this the same way when you said matt i know how to do this

i honestly didn't i because the texts are so dismissive i thought well he doesn't i didn't think you put it on that level of like well of course i'm going to what do you think i do this is my job i know it's your job but i i don't whose problem was that why is that my problem that you didn't think when when someone says to you listener when you're texting someone and they said they're gonna do something and they said yeah i'll get to it yeah right which is fine yeah but then they haven't said it and so then you're texting someone and they said they're going to do something and they said, yeah, I'll get to it. Yeah. Right. Which is fine. Yeah.

But then they haven't said it. And so then you're going to see them the next day. Yeah. And instead of saying, yeah, Matt, I'll watch it on the plane or I'll watch it before I see you. You're just like, yeah, I'll get to it. And I was like, well, now does he just mean ever in life? Because I'm seeing him in 24 hours. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I didn't really flesh that out for you. Mark. Yes. Just because you don't get carte blanche of I was really good to you in a hotel room five years ago, so now I can be a dick on text all the time.

It's not just that hotel room. Every time I come to Atlanta, we hang out. I know. What do you want from me on text? A novel? Don't be a dick. I wasn't being a dick. You want me to... I clarified it. Every time...

Like I said, if I ever... Listen, Mark. It's okay. So let's just break it down for the audience, okay? Let's just be real here. You can just talk to me. I know, but I'm saying... The audience is listening.

You don't need to talk to them. They're here. It's when you have a relationship with someone who's relatively famous right and i have two friends that i would consider relatively famous who's the other one you are the other rain is the other one okay rain wilson i always like it's hard not to think about does he think i want something does he think whatever in this case you definitely wanted something right but i'm just saying in life sure so if you do a great job with whomever and I go, hey man,

great job with Maria Bamford or whatever and then I engage you in some other question after that because I don't want to bother you because I know everybody fucking asks you for everything including wanting to be on your show. And so I'm always, I feel like a little tentative

and then I get fucking bitten and I'm like, yeah, why don't I? Well, just don't be so sensitive, first of all. Second of all, don't be so sensitive. first of all. Second of all, I'm so... Don't be so sensitive. Well, you can be sensitive, but you've got... Marc Maron just said, don't be so sensitive. But look, what I'm trying to tell you is

there's no indication from any exchange we've ever had that we're not friends. I'm not that famous. I've never dismissed you. I've never not taken a text. If you called me, I would take the call. If you called me, I would take the call. If you needed help, I would give you help. And see, my assumption is that there's some part of you, like I've been your friend through you quitting comedy and then starting up the event

business. And then you did this other thing. And look, I mean, just because we don't talk to each other all the time, there's some friends that I kind of poke at. And I'm sorry that you took it so hard. I'll be a little more sensitive to your needs. But see, now I know what's coming. What? The next time I text you, you're going to say something and then be like, was that nice enough?

Are you okay, Matt? That's right. That's right. I'll take that. I'll take that over Dick Mark. Dick Kurt Mark. But Kurt is you reading into text. I don't know how...

I'm like that with a lot of people, and I know the words might be a little different, but it seems to be that people that I feel like I need to maintain some sort of boundaries because of my own sensitivity, I'm a little like that. Okay. All right?

Okay. Jesus Christ. All right, so your car gets torched. And this is the sober moment? Well, it's the beginning of the end of like... Life. Life is not going well for me, right? Like we say, you don't get to the rooms in a winning streak.

When your car gets torched by these two girls and their redneck friends... Were you gunning for a threesome? Yes. Okay. Okay. All right, so that's... But that's not why. i don't know maybe i don't they were they they they i don't want to get it did it happen it did not happen something happened it whatever it doesn't

matter the point is it didn't happen and then and then my car gets torched and then i'm like i'm going to la that's what happened i moved to la like a month later that was your indication that like i'm ready well i think i'm ready for the big time but what i was gonna say is that all the things that i did working hard those three years and hustling i got to la and it was like hey now go do a coffee shop and i was like fuck you i'm not doing a coffee shop as if i had something and i had nothing that's the guy i text. Right. Right. And that was stupid. I should have worked really hard and gone to the improv every night or somewhere. Which coffee shop? Like Bliss or something?

No, not even Bliss. I'm just saying like whatever. You know how it is in LA. Sure. Yeah. A bookstore, a coffee shop. Yeah. Laundromat.

And I somehow thought I was above it because I had 20 minutes of material maybe. You were working the road in Boston doing one night. Yeah. You ran a club in Maine. Well, right. And so I thought it entitled me to something, and it did not. And I should have been the same. So when do you get sober?

Because I feel like I met you through Mishnah. I did meet you through Mishnah. Yeah. But I started a room at a billiard hall. Yeah, I know. I played it. On Hollywood Boulevard. That's where I met you.

Mishnah was there. Mishnah, for the listeners. Fuck you. Is my ex-wife. Mishnah Wolf, ex-wife number two. She had a little sobriety coin on her keychain. And I was like, oh, hey, cool. I'm in the program, blah, blah, blah.

She's like, somehow you came up. And she's like, he would do your room. And I was like, cool. And that's how it all started. You came to the room. We started talking, went to a few a meetings together when did you get sober though I was already I got to so I got sober as soon as I got to LA because it was such a like I just got to hit bottom so fast

because LA is good like that LA can go out every single night Boston yes you can party every night but most people are just you know they're living their life I guess that's true when I was there there was I think a bigger comedy scene than catch rising star used to give everyone free drinks so it was like crazy like everyone would converge there just for free drinks yeah like for us it was more just like you know everybody worked their day job and then you go to you know you do the stand-up on the weekends or i mean you would do stuff during the week but the big stuff was on the weekends but anyway you got to la and started going to meetings i I got sober.

I'd been in LA a month. And it's one of those, like, you know, the white light moment was I'd gone to the Velvet Room. Was it Burgundy Room? Velvet Room? What did you go to? Yeah, I don't remember. Something. I think it was Burgundy Room. Yeah.

And I was walking down the street and I couldn't find my car. Yeah. Was it on fire? I had a different car at this point. I couldn't find my car. Yeah. And it on fire? I had a different car at this point. I couldn't find my car. Yeah. And I had no money and I hadn't met anybody

and I was by myself and it was one of those like, oh, like how many nights in a row is this? Yeah. Like this is, this is like, I'm literally living the same.

This is a Groundhog Day situation. Yeah. I called my dad who had 20 years at the time sober. Oh, so you come from it. And I said, oh yeah, both sides, both sides, all of it. And I said, hey dad, I had 20 years at the time sober. Oh, so you come from it. You're a legacy. Oh, yeah.

Both sides, both sides, all of it. And I said, hey, dad, I think I have a problem. And he wisely didn't say, you have to, X, Y, Z. He said, why don't you go check out some meetings? And that was it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you knew about it because you grew up with it. Well, I didn't grow up with my dad.

My dad left when I was two. You grew up with your mom? Mom, I'm the stepdad, yeah. Are both your parents Jews? Yes. Yeah. So yeah, so I started going to meetings and that was it. I got struck sober and the whole-

Holy shit, so what do you got? You must have like 20- We have the same amount of time, I think. I just got 24. October 25th, 99. Right, okay. A little month apart or two. Yeah.

So you're coming up on 24're coming up so we both have like so we both yes we both had like four years when i met you both kind of crazy still yes absolutely batshit crazy yeah so because i remember that room it was like there was a huge billiard hall and then there was a side room yes and we were in the side room right and i remember it was one of those things where i came there was like no one there really. Right. And you were doing your thing. And you were like you, cocky, and you had a few jokes. Right. Yeah, but I remember we talked.

Yeah, I guess we did go to a couple meetings. But you stayed sober. That's pretty good. Yeah, but the thing that really bonded us, Mark, was when I went on the road and I said, I got this gig, I'm going to host this thing. Yeah. I'm going to be doing these malls

for this Coca-Cola American Idol sponsored event gig thing. And you said, Matt, you should keep a journal. The mall journal. And I started writing. And I've gone back to it recently. And it's hilarious. It's hilarious. You ever write something and you start describing some woman or some situation.

And you put too much to say, but you'll remember. It's like, nope, I do not remember. It's been's been 30 years now i do not remember and then you look at it yeah and it kind of pops off the page because you can get right back into your voice well i just i just dude i i found remember you doing that and i was like that's a horrendous gig because it wasn't really a comedy gig it was a presenting gig right and but it turns out i'm actually pretty good at that no i know that's why you got into the other business right so like that was the death knell of your comedy career but no way so i found this old tape of mine okay yeah i found this old tape of mine and i was i was looking at myself doing my bits and i was like that guy's like a prisoner of those jokes i was so afraid to like

step out of whatever the jokes were. And then I found another tape, which was me hosting somebody's thing, some thing at Comic-Con or some anime thing. And I didn't have any material. It was just talk about what's happening. And I was super loose and super easy. And I introduced the next thing. And I'm like, well, I just should have leaned into that.

You could have been an audience warm-up guy whatever whatever what are you yelling for i'm saying that that the idea of this is how jokes have to go and if i don't do that if i just trusted myself a little bit more i might have been better see this is the other part component of your personality i think that you know i assumed and it might not be true was that part of your disposition post comedy is regretting that you quit comedy and and that's a type because that's a guy that like you know like could have would have should in a way but also is a little more judgmental of other comics and stuff. Every time I see you,

you would say something like, blah, blah, blah, and then you quit the business. And I'm like, why do you have such a hard-on for this about me quitting comedy? I think other people are mad at me about that too. I don't know,

because I'm like such, whether or not I wanted to or not, I'm like the real deal lifer at this point. Yes. And sometimes like I guess there's a sort of arrogance to that in that, you know, I could never figure out a way to quit, thankfully. But as I have gotten older, I have more respect for people who figured out another life for them and realized that this was not the life because it's not an easy life. To me, it implies some foresight

in that there are guys who... I was never going to write for anybody. I was never going to... All the other things that comics can do and the smart ones knew early on, like, I know how to write. Why don't I get into writing shows and show running? They did that. A lot of the guys I started with had huge careers as showrunners.

Why I just couldn't figure out how they could do it. And I knew I didn't want to do it, so I was sort of stuck. So before the podcast, I imagine i imagine that yeah my disposition was uh all i had to hold on to was the fact that i didn't quit yeah so i met you or met you so when i first moved back to atlanta you had just the podcast had just started and and like people still didn't even know what a podcast was right you gave me a bunch of stickers yeah like have you listened to this thing yet yeah how do i do that on my computer yeah because you were this guy that was like remember you did the fucking laughing skull yeah 80 80 cedar right yeah and mad that it didn't sell out yeah i know dude so like once you have a

little a little sensitivity a little empathy for for young mark i'm so happy for mark that mark's gone on to all this great success yeah i'm watching you the other day on fucking Rez Dogs. I was like, me and Stacey already love that show. And there comes Mark. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And that was awesome.

Yeah. I'm super happy for you. Well, thank you. So stop being such a dick to me. I'm not being a dick to you. I'm just saying that maybe. You couldn't hack it in the comedy. Did I do that today?

You always bring it up. You pretty much always bring it up. The times that I see you. Let me. How about this, Mark? Is how about this mark is is it possible yeah is it possible yeah somewhere deep down my life looks something like maybe you wanted your life per se. Like I really did not want children. I'm not good at marriage and I accepted that at some point. But I think the bigger problem is that there's some part of me that doesn't see me for actually who I am now. There's some part of me that's very much the same as it always was. And I think one of the reasons why it impacts you so much is that, you know, why am I talking to you like this? I'm doing great. Why can't I have a little humility? And the fact is there's some

part of me, and I've been dealing with this a bit in, not in therapy, but in talking to other people that I don't see myself, but it other people, that I don't see myself, but it was a therapist, that I don't see my position in the world. I see myself as a guy that's still hanging on, that didn't become necessarily as big a comic as I wanted to be, that somehow, like a lot of times when I get invited to things by other comics, I'm like, why they even, you know, like there's just part of me that doesn't have a perspective on that. And sometimes I speak from that place. Does that make sense to you? Yes. Yeah. even you know like there's just part of me that doesn't have a perspective on that and sometimes

i speak from that place does that make sense to you yes yeah but no party no party i'm not saying the kids part i just mean that just the if i have what's called maybe a normal life no i don't i don't have any there's no part of me that envies your life okay and that's not an insult no i i get it yeah i just thought that might be what some of the stuff is coming from maybe no it's the fact that you you were a comic and you're you're you're still a little uh strangely uh cocky sometimes you are don't give me this confused look like i'm just gonna let you sit there like you're some resolved human mark what but but you say it as if i'm like doing that like to you no you i'm sure you do it to everybody

well how am i not supposed to it's just a you seem better right now you seem it seems like life over time has kind of hammered you into a humble service you said that finally you said that to me in the phone you said that to me the other day on the phone you said oh like i think you've lost a little bit because yeah like it's fucking hard i know north of 50 i'm not thrilled with okay all the ages that came along whatever whatever whatever turning 50 something weird happened with me where i'm like like 50 so when was it then and how did that transpire that you actively was there a time where you're like i'm done with comedy that's That's what's so weird. It didn't happen. I started the staffing company.

I was getting hired. But that's when you moved back here. Or you started in LA. So I was in LA. And as a day job, you can get hired to do event marketing, experiential marketing. Spiritual marketing? Experiential, as in experience. Anytime you've been to a ball game or an event and some cute gal is handing out free stuff, I was doing that.

Then people would be like, hey, you can show up on time and work relatively hard. We'll have you be the manager. Of the staffing thing. We'll pay you a few extra bucks. And after doing that for about a year, just something occurred to me like, maybe I could be the guy.

Right. And I literally Googled how to start an LLC, how to get a federal ID number, and those were all free things. Yeah. So the next time this company called me and said,

can we hire you and your friends to hand out bullshit at this Cadillac event? Yeah. I said, can you pay my company? And that was my first business. And so when it started making money, it was like,

oh, wow, I haven't been on stage in like six months, but this is okay. I'm making,'m i mean i'm still broke me and stacy but also you're getting in front of people now that's the other thing you married a comic yes like you were dating i remember her as a comic and i remember you started dating after you got sober yeah we both have about the same amount of time of sobriety you met in the rooms we didn't meet in the rooms and we always say if we did it probably would have never happened like if you hear each other shit yeah but thankfully we didn't even though hollywood a is so small yeah she remembers

going to meetings with you going to the bliss cafe yeah meetings with you yeah exactly and that's a small meeting yeah i love that meeting but for whatever reason her and i never crossed paths and then she was doing it was stand-up one night and her her stuff was about like her dad was a drug dealer and she you know yeah dating dating a heroin addict right i was like oh she has to be in the program right so i approached her and off we off we went well that's nice and you're still together through thick and thin yes all right so you start the event company in la staffing company the staffing. You don't miss comedy. No, I used to have this thing where I'd watch certain people and I'd go, you know, maybe

I wouldn't do stand-up, but maybe like a one-man show, like maybe. And now, because I do what you do, I get to talk to people. You have a podcast. I have a podcast. What's it called? Obstacle Racing Media Podcast, which we'll get to, i'm sure uh the movie and all that stuff so you start the event the staffing company in la but then you want to expand or you want to get married we had a kid in la she wasn't she had moved to la to act when she was like 18 so she'd

been in la for like 20 years already you're right and i'd been there for 10 yeah and we were both like fuck la yeah she's from san Francisco. I was from Atlanta. Yeah. Where should we go? Well, Atlanta's cheaper. Let's go to Atlanta. That was pretty much it. And then you started a new company. You were able to hold... No, I did the staffing company for another five or six years.

So you just moved the business here and hired local people in Atlanta? Well, you staff... I mean, the internet's everywhere. You could staff anything. Oh, I see. So it didn't matter where the event was. Yeah. So we staffed Dreamforce, this huge convention in San Francisco.

Yeah. But I learned a very valuable lesson about business, Mark. It doesn't matter how much you make. It's how much you keep. And I did not know how to keep good margins. And I didn't know how to budget. And I didn't know how to scale, as they say. And so I made one year my business gross $900,000.

And I had nothing at the end of it now is this another program you're in i've gone to da uh i'm not in it now but um but you felt like it was a problem i've never been good with money no but i mean to the point where where you're like oh my god this is a problem it is it is a problem it's currently a problem you're talking to someone who has a wife a problem it is it is a problem it's currently a problem you're talking to someone who has a wife and three children and pets to feed and it's fucking hard yeah but i only know how to do this i don't envy that see how about someone that loves me really deeply though that she does and that would do and that

would do anything for me what about that you want one of those that's pretty good i never can hold on to one of those. I break those generally. Right. So that was it. You just moved the staffing company to Atlanta, and you went for, how long did you have it? I think looking back, it might have only been like eight years. Oh, yeah?

But then I remember, I think that the time where I found out about this obstacle racing thing was the same time. And I don't know if you want to talk about it, but it was all part of this disaster story that you had in your life. Yes. It was sort of like, I don't understand this obstacle course thing. And you're like, it's great. Everyone's doing it. And you run and you jump on things.

There's water. And you're like, it's great. Everyone's doing it. And you run and you jump on things. There's water. So I kind of got an image of it, but it seemed like this kind of weekend thing for people to, it almost has a motivational element to it.

Like it's regular people. It's like when people take improv classes to learn how to speak better at work. It seemed like the obstacle coursing was like, my life is kind of boring and this makes me feel like I accomplish things. Yeah, and that's what happens to some people. Is that why you got in it? I did it because a friend of mine was doing it and he was like, my friend Dominic,

he was like, I'm gonna do one next year. And I was like, well, you're fat and you're gonna do it, then I'm gonna do it if you can fucking do it. So you were still doing the staffing company with some guy you knew. Yeah, and we did it and I was like, well, you're fat and you're going to do it, then I'm going to do it if you can fucking do it. So you were still doing the staffing company with some guy you knew. Yeah. Yeah. And we did it and I was like, that was really good.

Let me do another one. Yeah. And then I hung around some of these people and I just started like, just when you, I was like just, like I wasn't fat, but I wasn't like fit, right? I was just a normal dad, like a normal softball playing dad is the best way I can describe it. Sure, yeah. So if you're 40 years old and you're in that shape you know what i'm talking about and then i went to this thing up in vermont called the death race yeah which was

these crazy people there's like no start no finish and they're just out there doing all this crazy stuff yeah and i was listening to you and i was listening to This American Life, and I was like, I think I'd like to start a podcast. For this? Yes. Your second event? Second or third event, yeah. You thought this is a community that has a very specific thing, all kinds of different

people are in it for a lot of different reasons. It's a national or international sport-ish. reasons it's a national or international sport ish i just knew that there was something about it that i that i really liked yeah and that i was inspired by and impressed by but were you looking at it as a way to make a living or no i just thought i thought i think podcasting would be cool yeah again this is 2012 which is not as early as you started, but still pretty damn early on the podcast train. Yeah. But then it turns out I'm – and then along with that, presenting, as you say, doing social media and making videos, like what today they would call a content creator. Oh, for obstacle stuff. Yeah.

But in 2012, it was just me doing what I did. And then it turns out this – You had sponsors and stuff? Well, that's how I make money yeah yeah but i'm saying this is this is how i found this which obviously would never have happened if i didn't do stand-up dude like never would have happened if i didn't stand-up is the is the basis of everything so now you you like this community you like the sport you like the people you want to do a podcast but then you kind of dig into it, and you're doing this thing. And it's still a fairly – like I just saw somebody DM me about listening to me on a 100-mile run, and it must have been that thing. Well, there's a lot of 100-mile runs.

There is? Yes. See, like this is a whole world. I'm not a sports guy, but it's not like an Olympic sport or anything. But I'm not trying to dismiss it, but it is a subculture of athletics. Correct. So ultra marathons are a whole other culture. But some of the people that we do do some of those.

Oh, those are just 100-mile runs? Yeah, you just go run for 100 miles in the woods somewhere. Yeah, yeah. And it takes a day. And it's the reason I gave my video such a click-baity title, The Hardest 100-Miler, because I figured it would work, and it did. Because then people are like, this isn't the hardest race ever. Well, yeah, but that was why I felt like, while watching it,

that this is for them. That, like, as an outsider, and the video looks great, but it's very hard to build suspense with a 24-hour race. Do you know what I mean? Right. But if you know the sport and you know the race and you followed a few of the competitors, but what I was watching as somebody who I didn't even know,

even if you just at the beginning said, all right, this is the course, it would have been helpful for me. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm watching, I'm like, so they help each other over the water thing you know like i like i don't know the parameters of the rules and i didn't know how like they ran around the same course many times i didn't know any of that all i knew is that we're getting the same shot with people getting progressively more tired yes so the very first shot of the movie yeah the opening. You get kind of that quick thing.

Five mile loops, 24 hours, blah, blah, blah. Trust me, we thought a lot about how much, when you make something like this, how much do you hold hands? How much do you explain the rules? To me, the story's about those three women and what they went through. So that's what we leaned on. Yeah, but at the end, I'm like,

so you can just, is it a timed thing is that why some people did 80 miles and some people did 75 yeah it's not they just crap out at a certain point some people many people crap out of course that's obvious but but it is a time thing yes so when time is up whoever has the most miles wins okay it's not like you know if you don't make it to 100 no you don't okay no see See, that was a problem for me. Okay. But I'm not smart when it comes to watching stuff. It's okay.

Yeah. It's okay. But so this was sort of what you were working towards in the sense that you're not only a competitor. You're clearly a member of the community. And people refer to you and know you because you've been doing media with them for so long and you're also a competitor. But this was a big deal, the doc. Well, a lot of people have made versions of that

which aren't as good, which were a lot of the same beats over and over again, which is, hey, it's the morning. Hey, it's night. Hey, it's the next day. Yay, we all made it. And I thought no one's really showed how hard it was. Right.

And a lot of the comments that people have done the race have said, I think this actually shows how freaking hard it is. Yeah, no, you definitely got a sense of that. I just didn't know the rules. Right. But that's, you know, whatever. Right. But, yeah, you definitely sense, like the girl,

like when he back cut to the woman from the beginning to where she's losing her cognitive ability. Correct. You're sort of like, well, you know what I mean? But it's not an indictment because you've got to believe how she believed at the beginning, how all of them believed at the beginning. But I mean, that's going to take its course on you

to run and walk and climb and swing and swim for you know 24 what are all the obstacles do you is there a does each obstacle course have the same general obstacles so certain races right if you just think like the coke and the pepsi and whatever have their own kind of flavor right this particular race they like to do what's it called the mutter the world's toughest mutter the tough mutter is the company yeah they like to do... What's it called? The Mudder? The world's toughest Mudder. The Tough Mudder is the company. They like to play on your fears. So it's not just something that might not be that hard

like crawling through a tube at night. Not that hard, but if you're scared of small spaces, it's really hard for people. Jumping off large water structures. We've had that in past years. That didn't make it this year, but that's a super epic thing. We jumped off this thing called the cliff because it was a giant cliff.

Yeah. And it's like, I don't want to do that. Yeah. But yeah, it's basically, what can you put? Listen,

anybody who does these races will tell you, after like six hours, it's all mental. It's all mental. Yeah. But yeah, several, have people died?

A couple people have. Yes, but you didn't want to do that kind of documentary? This race has killed two people I mean Yeah, but you know Obviously they didn't die from the race They died because of whatever Well, one guy did drown a long time ago You can Google it if you want

In 2013 a guy died, it was really sad He jumped on with No, but it was a big deal in our sport. And it's a bummer. It's a tragedy. Obviously. But a lot of people crap out, right? I mean, like.

Most people, when it gets cold, go, I'm really cold. I'm going to stop. But the pit stops, they can go to the bathroom and stuff. There's no, like, I imagine some people, like, you know, shit their pants and stuff and just pee while they're running. You definitely pee in wetsuits. That's the thing. Yeah. Because it's too much of a pain in the ass to take off.

Oh, okay. Man. Is it all worth it? I think so. I've done that race a couple times. You did 100 miles? No, I did 50 in the same time. That's crazy.

I have run 100 miles before over the course of a whole weekend. I like it. At some point, they're just eating pizza. Yes. That's like mile 70, and she's just carrying two pieces of pizza. But isn't that great? Yeah. Snickers, pizza, other things I don't know.

But the reason, listen, I wanted you to watch it because I do feel like, even if you're not into the sport, it is a story that's about these three women, right? And that when you look at our budget, zero, right? It's like it comes out pretty good. No, no. I thought the doc looked great. It was just me coming into something. I did not understand the rules or the parameters or the nature of the race. And maybe I missed that at the beginning.

Like I said, it's that opening thing. If you were getting your popcorn ready or whatever or finishing text text you might have missed it that would explain everything well it's it's it says it does say five mile loops 25 obstacles 24 it yeah it basically explains all right then my bad it's the opening my bad it's the opening salvo i also think it's best enjoyed on a large television not your laptop but that's fine you watch now this is and you're gonna ask me why i text you shitty text like i you know you asked me, did I watch it? Did I watch it? Now, like, I watched it last night, and I absorbed the whole thing.

You're like, it's really, like, if you had a larger television, maybe you should watch it again. No, I don't want to. I wouldn't ask you to watch it again. I'm just saying, ideally, it's better experienced on a large TV. I think you would have liked it even more. I don't know. No, no, no.

I liked it. It was shot well. The music was good, and, like, there was a, it's just like I said before, and I wasn't even being joking. It's hard to build up that sort of like, you know, that finish line thing when it's literally a 24 hour race, you know, cause you could just keep going back to them wearing down. But, but the ending of it with, with the placing happens sort of abruptly. You're like, oh, it's over? You know what I mean? Because there's no way... Well, my whole thing with it was how do we... I don't want people... Where is it...

Would people get bored? That was the whole thing with making something that's like a legitimate documentary about this race, showing how hard it is without it just being what you're describing,

like a two-hour slogfest. So I think it comes in at a nice lean 48 minutes. Yeah, no, it was good. It was good work. Now, what is the life of something like that? Well, we just put it on YouTube, and then I thought I'd like some people to see it,

like not just on YouTube. Did you get money from Mudder? No. No one gave you money? No, it was all self whatever. And so then I did reach out to Outside TV. And I said, would you guys like this? And they said yes.

So now it's on Outside TV, which nobody, you know. But somebody has to. Outside from Outside Magazine? Yes. Same people. They have a TV thing. OK. And I would like to do more stuff like that. But what I wanted to say

before I forgot about just doing this whole thing, and I know I've said this to you before, but in six months, first year of me doing this podcast and putting out content about this sport, people in the sport would come up to me at races and be like, this is great. Thank you for

what you're doing. Yeah. Because I love this sport and I don't know where to get any other. Like, you for what you're doing yeah because i love the sport and i don't know where to get any other like thanks for what you're doing basically for the sport and i never got that like i never got once like close to that in 10 years of comedy because my idea of comedy was completely different it wasn't about like being this giving person and providing like things for an audience community person it was like how can i get mine doing stand-up was like how can i get mine how can i get famous how can i get laid all the things you mean all the stuff that you've talked about we're like sit in the coffee shop why does that guy have a fucking show fuck that fucking guy instead of just working hard and trying to be a

good member of the community and all those things that I've learned to do now that honestly do come to me pretty naturally. I am, I think, a naturally giving person. Yeah, I am too. I know. I experience it often, not in person, but on the show. What are you talking about? When we hang out. I was joking.

I know. You're fine. But yeah, because I remember that was the big shift is that even with that crisis, that I don't know if we need to talk about, unless you felt it, that there was this kind of idea. It threatened everything. Yes. Yeah.

Well, I think let's just say, let's talk as we say, what do we say? What's the word in the program that we say? We share it in a general way. So my marriage almost fell apart. Right. For the reasons that normally would make a marriage fall apart right something stupid that guys do it was an obstacle course you didn't need to be on correct and and you happen to you happen to be there uh at the at the crux of it yeah and getting through that it was astounding i you know i've only had a couple of friends that have dealt with things as daunting um where all the outcomes seemed terrible in terms of

what could have happened you know when when you do transgress but it was because of recovery i think is what was amazing to me is that because you both you and your wife had enough recovery and you were able to frame i think rightfully so your issues in this other world of compulsion right uh that you were able to communicate and and get through it yeah and i feel pretty lucky because most women say, yeah, see you later. Of course. Like end of story. Of course. No therapy, no anything. Yeah. Or they just punish the guy for the rest of his life. Sure. And so I feel pretty fortunate that both of us were willing to do whatever it took to make it through it. And it's one of those things that like is horrible as it is,

it does make you closer. how do you feel about what's happened here uh i feel pretty good i do have a couple questions for you go ahead uh how i mean some of this could get cut right yeah i have nothing to do with that all right brandon try to keep this in yeah okay i i wanted to talk to you i wanted i did want to talk to you about to leslie if you haven't't talked too much about it I finally saw it Random friend texted me Said have you seen this? I think you might be friends with Mark

You'll like it It's clearly the hardest thing you've ever done Right? I guess so I didn't think of it that way But as an actor I made choices to Try to do things that I'd never done before. So it was hard in that way.

Well, this is what I had to ask you about, is the accent. Because I thought that held you back, actually. And I thought you didn't have to do it. And by the way, I don't want people to think I'm a dick. You did an amazing job. That's a great movie. Everybody crushes it. Fucking she does.

What's his name? Sorry, Bubbles. Crushes it. Yeah. Andre. Andre. yeah sorry bubbles uh crushes it yeah uh andre andre roiland royo royo yes um but i thought huh this is an interesting choice because it's tough it's tough to keep going the whole time so i just wanted to ask you about that if you haven't already talked about it well i think i have talked about it was like one of these things where you know i got that gig i pushed back on on the gig because I thought that they could find someone else to do it, but the director convinced me that he wanted me to do it.

I said to him, I said, I don't know about the accent. He said, don't worry about the accent. Then I thought, I talked to James Caan. Jimmy? I watched a lot of his old movies. I started to see that there's a lot of actors that choose to do accents, but it doesn't necessarily go over that well. You know, and but I wanted to take that risk.

So, you know, I met with a dialect coach and, you know, some people thought I did a great job. Some people not so much. It was a very mild accent. And when I watch it, I'm OK with it. There's a couple of moments where I'm out of it. But, you know, I was given a way to sort of load up with it and break it down. But I wanted to do that. I made the choice

because I thought, well, if I'm going to be an actor, I've got to try these things. Okay. And I totally respect that. Yeah. And I didn't think anyone would see that movie necessarily. But I didn't think I did a bad job either. I was kind of all in but i just thought like how am i going to make this interesting you know i knew the guy wasn't

me to begin with but it was also supposed to be you know a texas character so even if i didn't do any accent it would hard for me not to do me isms so i thought that that would stop me like that's just marion and a cowboy hat right or whatever i's just wearing a cowboy hat. Right. Or whatever. I wasn't wearing a cowboy hat. You know what I'm saying. But emotionally I really was not expected to be me. So I thought like

when she told me that we were going to do this Lubbock accent that it's pretty mild and there's a way to do it I thought like well fuck it let's do it.

And if it was going to be a problem if anyone had a problem with it they would have told me. But that's why I did it to challenge myself as an actor to know to try something and when you know someone as well as we know each other it's also hard because i'm like would this would i even notice so much if i don't know what mark actually sounds like yeah i didn't i didn't get a lot of negative feedback about it

there were some people that were like surprised and thought i did a great job uh and but no one said it was a mockery. I wasn't trying to do a Boston accent. No, no, no, no. I wasn't trying to do a real, hey, y'all. It seemed to me that what I agreed upon with the dialect coach made sense. And were there rules? No, it's not that there are rules,

but what a good dialect coach does is she showed me a video. She made me watch Mac Davis, of all people, the singer-songwriter. She found somebody from Lubbock to give me an example of the subtlety of it. And then she just gives you this breakdown of how words and vowels are different

than how they pronounce them. So before a scene i would just sort of like load up on the lines make my choices and then you know make sure i'm saying as many of the words right relative to the accent as possible um and i just did it scene for scene so there's no rules but that helped got it what's your other question uh oh uh res dogs we're late to it my wife and i just saw it i love that guy what's the best show ever so how did that come to you well i i had an opportunity to interview sterling harjo right the director and i thought the movie the show was beyond i think it's an important show uh in terms of you know giving Native people a place where they can express their unique sense of humor,

their unique spirituality, their unique living conditions, and really go full-throated with that world. I think that it did something that's never been done before in terms of really shattering the perception that most people have of native people and, and gave them, you know, a real voice. So I was totally impressed with it. And I got the opportunity to interview Sterling and I watched all his movies and I just have total respect for that guy.

And I said to him, I said, well, get me in one. You know what I mean? You got Kurt in there. You got Kirk in there. You got Bill. You definitely are in my world. Right. And he said, I said, well, get me in one. You know what I mean? You got Kurt in there. You got Kirk in there. You got Bill.

You definitely are in my world. Right. And he said, I'll see what I can do. And that episode, because they sort of half model them on movies, if you notice, because Sterling's kind of a film nerd. So a lot of them are themed like movies.

And that one was clearly written to be a full metal jacket thing oh and you know i just wasn't going to do that so you know i looked at the script oh so he saw that guy as an ass kicker sure uh well he saw him as sort of a like a sarge kind of guy right so i just did my version of that interesting and uh and you know he gave me the freedom they didn't expect that but i you know i sort of did it and i think it it kind of worked out that was much closer to who i am that guy but like when i told the story about the during that meeting about my wife you know that was a little that was a little heavy-handed but no it's funny it was funny it's comedy

midgets yeah that's pretty hacky. Come on. But that was the guy. It wasn't me. And you wonder why I'm a dick to you. Well, it was because that's a hacky joke. Come on, dude. What, to use midgets? Yes.

No. If you had left it at my wife cheated on me, it was a threesome, and then left it. Oh, so you didn't write that? No. Oh, okay. Well, then it's fine then. I thought you ad-libbed that maybe.

No. I amplified it, but I didn't. The note I would have given would be like, let's lose the midget line. The rest of it's good. You lost me at the midgets. Well, you lose me most times. You see, the thing that you forget

is that I'm a sensitive guy. And if I was as critical of you as you are innately comfortable to be of me because of your own whatever, then you would understand. Why does this fucking light you up so much, Mark? Why are you so... Why did it light you up when I said that the movie at the beginning, maybe you put a little more of the explanation at the beginning and you got all hurt-faced on me? I'm the same guy as you, so don't ask me fucking questions that you know the answer to. I'm the same guy as you.

And so I'm supposed to say an angry fucking dude that's afraid to get hurt? Is that it? I'm not afraid to get hurt. I'm a fucking comic. I stayed with it. That's the best part that you think it's an insult that you think me quitting comedy is it's not it's not i i don't really think it's an insult it was a callback to something funny but you i think and i'm happy that you feel comfortable enough to be you know sort of

questioning and critical you know to my face about what I've done. It's fine. You're unbelievable, Mark. You're unbelievable. I know. You think that, like you take so much, it was that great line from fucking, from Glenn Gary.

It's like, you think this is abuse? How could you take abuse? I don't think it's abuse. I'm saying you hang out with comics who are way more. I don't think it's abuse. It's not abuse. I give you my somewhat... You're a guy that no matter what someone fucking does,

you'll find the weak point in it and you'll lean on it. You'll say like, yeah, that was good, but you're just that fucking guy because it makes you feel bigger. And it's just the way you're wired. And it's fucking annoying. So don't pretend like we're somehow different

or you don't understand what I'm talking about. You look for things in people and you find a certain comfort zone. The thing is, don't judge me about what I can and can't take from comics. I've been doing this a long fucking time and I can take a lot. And I tolerate you and I like you

and I think you're a friend. But you look for the fucking weak points to fucking twist a little bit and you think it's just sort of like, I'm just being reasonable. I'm being honest, but it is what it is, and it's something that you do, and I know you've done it with other people. It's somehow you fucking float your boat

emotionally, but don't think it's like innocent. I'm not going to sit here and let you do that. What other people? I don't know. You tell me. I mean, I'm taking a minute. That was a lot. I've been around a long time.

It's not like I haven't dealt with guys like you before. You know, it's like, you know, I've talked to a lot of fucking people. I've been doing comedy a long fucking time. There's nobody that's that fucking original emotionally. And all of us are on the same spectrum of insecurity. And how people handle that insecurity is whatever it is. Right, but I still don't understand where that came from. What?

What came from? That massively loaded thing you just said to me. But that's the crux of the problem. That's all I've been trying to say to you. That is what it is. That is why you get shitty. That I i pretend you're not pretending to do anything what you're doing is you're using honesty as a sort of weird kind of like you know a pokey thing so i should never give you any constructive feedback that's not that way it's it's not a matter of constructive feedback it's not constructive feedback that's fucking behind me

you know whatever we just did but the truth of the matter is is that throughout the career that i've had and whatever i've done on on the comedy stage or whatever you're slightly just diminishing it's just the way you are is that you know i can go up and do an hour and you'll be like well that one joke didn't you know so like you're just that guy you know you can watch me do an hour and a half of comedy and afterwards yeah that was pretty good. I liked that one bit. That was solid. But this other stuff's kind of weak.

I didn't ask you for that. I know what I'm fucking up to, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's how you choose to engage with me. And you know I'm a sensitive guy, and you're a sensitive guy. That's why we have problems. So now you know what it is.

I'm just glad we got to this. I was hoping we'd get to this. I'm glad we did. Yeah. This has to stay in, right? Probably. There's no way you could lose this. Come on.

Okay. This is great. All right. So are we good? Do you still do that? What? That used to be always how we ended. I don't know.

We don't have to end there. Are you all right? You can have your... Are always how we ended i don't know we don't have to end there you're right you can have your are we gonna i don't know i feel like there's a there's a debrief coming like a come down well let's do that's intense that's really intense mark well how did it land with you well i i'm not obtuse enough to not know, like, just take it in. Like, don't defend. Like, just take it all in. And so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not saying that I haven't done it.

I only know it for myself. But when you say you know I'm sensitive, it makes it sound like I'm cruel. Like, I'm doing it just to fuck with you. No, I don't. And the fact that after a set that you had as a comic, if I said yeah that one i didn't love or whatever you don't say that first there's some people that like you know like the reason you and i have any sort of tension you know in terms of how we engage is because we're very similar in that we're we're sort of like we're kind of guarded in a relatively deep way we are preemptively defensive about certain things and and you know then there are

certain people that see you and certain people that don't now you and i have the gift of being able to see each other because of our particular insecurities right so you know my insecurity says to me what mark has far more than i could ever want like from a career perspective and the money that goes with that how could anything i say possibly well that's crazy i'm just telling you that's what it feels like over here yeah right but it doesn't stop you from trying in how could little old me possibly affect you that bad you're like i'm not gonna sit here and take this from you like i'm just this walking asshole that's like you said looking to like I'm some weird –

It's instinctual. I'm not saying you're calculating. I'm just saying – Much like Tony Soprano, I can't help that I'm the – is that what you're saying? No, no. I'm not saying that it's calculated because I've done the same thing. It's just – it's a sort of like – it's a diminishing thing that, you know, sort of like keeps us, it comes out of insecurity, and I've done it myself. Like, I've dismissed major accomplishments.

Sometimes in interviews, I'm like, oh, yeah, you did that. And, like, as I've gotten older, I know that it's hurtful, and I know that I've got to be careful. Years ago in the program, a famous playwright, I don't even know if he's still alive, when I first got sober in New York, and I, you know, I had, you know, I'd come to a meeting, and I was all lit up. I didn't understand the program, and I was talking about,

you know, how I told my wife everything. You know, this is after I blew the marriage up and everything else. And I, you know, it's's like I did the program, man. I got honest. And I told her everything. And after the meeting, that guy, you know, that guy came up to me and he said, you know, using honesty as a weapon is not really being honest.

And so you think that's who i am no i'm just saying that you know there is something about insecurity that when you feel less than that you know when you talk just the way you framed me you know like you know me as a guy so to sort of then compartmentalize me as this big wealthy dude you're asking me you're asking me to like respond in the moment and that's what's happening for me okay but i'm telling you that like the the idea that part of you thinks like you know how you know you know me you've known me for fucking years i'm me it doesn't matter how much fucking money i have stop yelling at me mark it doesn't or how successful i am but the idea that you're going to use that as an out,

like, you know, how could anything you say affect me when I'm this guy who has all this stuff and you're nothing or some little guy? That's fucking crazy rationalization. Because you know me before. But it's what I'm experiencing right now. Okay. We can rationalize and you say that.

And yes, we are like, I think very similar, which is why we butt heads a lot. But like we still like each other right yeah okay guess what i'm telling you is that despite the fact that you see me as some guy that shouldn't be affected by what you say i met you when i was nothing and and i and we've been through a lot of different things in our lives a lot of ups and downs, a lot of devastating stuff. And the truth is, you know the thing where they say that fame doesn't really change people, that a person is who he is?

I'm that guy. I'm just whatever, however I've grown or haven't grown since you first met me, I'm just that guy. I don't see myself as you see me. I'm doing fine, but I just told you earlier that I don't really myself as you see me I'm doing fine but I just told you earlier that I don't really have a sense of who I am in public because I always judge myself against everybody else

and when you judge yourself against other people even if it's to say that you're nothing or that you're just this guy you're still judging yourself against somebody else there's a false humility to that to say like well you're this big star I'm just this guy who's only got three kids and I jump in the water with people. So that's another form of compare and despair. You've just sort of made it this place where you can operate from. I just feel like you could be a mean person and I'm not generally a

mean person. That's what I think the difference is. I can be a mean person because that's how I handle it. But yeah, so just because you're a mean person doesn't mean that you're not diminishing. It doesn't mean that you don't use honesty as a weapon. It doesn't mean that you're, you're sort of a little bit dismissive, you know,

in terms of like people that threaten you. I mean, like fine, you're not mean, but it doesn't mean you're not fucking hurtful. Well, that's accurate. accurate okay i'll take that all right we good we're good no it was great seeing you i'm glad we had the talk are we gonna cry i don't wanna cry should i come to your show tonight yeah you're doing a guest spot right no i'm not definitely not doing a guest spot

come on you just do the old ten i'm not doing it no yeah of course you're coming and afterwards i just i can't wait to see you know which jokes didn't land if you could just i will say nothing but positive glowing things about anything i ever fucking see of you ever again if i want to maintain some kind of relationship with you apparently no i No, I don't think that... But what if you just said that? What if I did that unconsciously, and I said, and I said, blah, blah, blah. Why don't you just go, hey, man, that hurts. Do you have to do that? Instead of not say anything,

and then whatever, be secretly angry at me for however long. I don't know if it's secretly angry. What I do is I do curt texts and I manage a boundary. I'm not going to sit there and then give you the satisfaction or the honesty of,

what are we, married? You're going to come up to me after me and go, yeah, that was pretty good. That was a pretty good show, but that one thing didn't work, right? Every time you do that, I'm supposed to go, that's a little hurtful. Now we in circles yes you could there's yeah you could say it you could find fine i don't need glowing things from you all the time i know

when you were great and glow speaking of glowing things i i do fucking travesty they didn't bring that show back glow is your best work dude the The thing about why it bothers me is because usually you're right. You find innately find the things that I'm insecure about. And I can do that with you too. You know, that is the thing is that like, it's fine to be honest and you can speak your mind, but you know,

because we are similar and because you are insecure, he's the same, your brain, it will immediately go. I know, you know, how I felt about that accent. more and because your insecurity is the same your brain and it will immediately go i know you know how i felt about that accent i felt okay about it and i know uh you know in terms of reservoir dogs you know the midget thing was what it was but i you know i made a choice to lean into it but you know you are able to find the things that i you know am a little squirrely

about in my own self and i've learned to live with. But then you come along with your weird perceptive power of my own insecurity and pop at it. And you can't explain that. It's not on purpose. It's just because, you know, we are similar and we have some history. But that's what that is, is that, you know, you I look, I know when I do a good set. I know which jokes don't work. I know, you know, when I try something, if it didn't pan out, I know all these things. I'm not fooling myself.

So in the same way, you must think on some level in your unconscious or, or in your instincts that like he's a big shot. Maybe he doesn't really know how much he sucked in that one thing. No, I think, I think you've given me something to think about. I don't think I've, I've heard it put quite the way you've put it. You've actually taught me something. I think I will honestly, like, you know, first is recognize you have a problem, right? And then you kind of do something and you notice it.

Then you kind of stop doing it. It's a tricky thing when you're insecure and empathetic. Yes. And that's not like, that's not like, that's not who I want to be in the world. That's not how I want my kids to be. You know what I mean? I wouldn't want them to be mean to people like that

or always looking for the one thing. So you've given me something to think about. All right, buddy. It was good talking to you. See you later. So that got intense and it surprised me. The emotions of it surprised me.

The emotions coming up surprised me. But it was real in that moment. And I hadn't really felt that kind of like, you know, that anger, that type of anger come up in me in a long time. You know, and I grew up with that sort of diminishing type of position from my mother. But, you know, that was it. You know, that was going to be it. And then he wanted to do another one, or at least to kind of, he wanted to reflect on what happened

in the conversation you just heard, and then, you know, talk a little bit more. And I agreed to it because, you know, we're friends. So this is the coda. This is the second part. So it's been less than 24 hours since I talked to you, right? So since I've talked to you, or as you say, yelled, we've gone and done a show. I've done a show.

I offered you a guest spot, but I think rightfully you didn't take it. And the show was good. And I think afterwards... You know, that was a dig too, right? You notice right away there's a dig too? Yeah. Rightfully afterwards. You know that was a dig too, right? You notice right away there's a dig too? Rightfully so. Laying the groundwork. I understand your point and I've agreed to do this.

We don't even know if it'll make the cut. I really hope it makes the cut. I feel like we're both different people than we were less than 24 hours ago. I think we're the same people. We just understand each other better yes yeah i i get it and i and i and i think that after the show last night you uh you respected you know what we talked about and and i and i i volunteered what i thought were the weak points of the set and then you know you weren't even that quick to agree and it was

good it was good there's a lot of progress there. Yes. Yeah. And I think that made me a little more comfortable. And also, sometimes digs with certain people who I know well. If you listen to the podcast, there are certain people that I definitely poke and bully. And it's fun. Not for the person getting bullied. Ask Godfrey.

And he will tell you that he has a great time on my show godfrey the comedian sure there's just certain people i have a dynamic with where the ball busting goes back and forth and it's it's very outright it's very plain right like it's sort of like oh that's clearly a joke but with you and i the ball busting is not okay when it's coming from me because i clearly have poked something that's no because you're not you're not doing it in a fun way. See, like for me to say like I offered you a spot and rightfully – that's funny. There's a tone to it. Yours is just stealth.

It's not a joke. It's not ball busting. It's sort of – it's kind of subliminal. It's subliminal bullying. It's not like – it's sort of like, oh, okay. So that's, yeah. So it's not the same. But I will say that I was surprised at the emotion

of what happened yesterday in terms of me kind of getting upset. And then you said something interesting to me after you go, it's like you're like my dad. What's that about? My dad was a rager. My dad was sober a long time.

Was definitely a rager before he got sober. Yeah. And what little memories I have of him as a small, small person. And then, you know, you're an older Jewish guy with the mustache. Yeah. And I snapped. And you snapped, and it's very intense.

Yeah. And I don't think I've ever made that connection before. Mark reminds me of my dad. Because if anything, you're more of an older brother to me than a dad figure, right? Yeah. Because of proximity to age and, you know know just who you are as a comic to me like i never i never would think of that but i was like oh wow this is this is like joe davis intensity well yeah well you know i'm intense and like you know whatever we're doing here now

and we're relaxed you know i'm not gonna let you reframe the reality of both our personalities and and i think that what was interesting to me, like I apologize for getting worked up and having that reaction. Maybe I'd been bottling up too much resentment over the years of our friendship. And I think that what you said after, which was maybe next time just say,

this hurt my feelings. I think I'll take that to heart and I'll, and I'll get that. But I do think that there was something you said. I think we're ultimately, maybe you're not a ragey guy, but I still think emotionally we're very similar. I think we're extremely similar.

And I think we sat down to breakfast this morning and I was hoping that it would go like this, right? Because I had a lot of thoughts. I had two people that knew I was doing this, right? Because I haven't told a lot of folks. I'll tell them when it comes out. But my good buddy Dario and my wife, and they're like, how'd it go? And I'm like, I don't know.

It was good for like an hour. You have one little problem. Well, I'm just saying, did I fly to St. Louis to get yelled at by Marc Maron? You can't. It's just not the way it was. I know, but I'm just telling you that's how it landed on me. And my feelings were really hurt, and I wasn't sure what happened. And the way I said to you this morning at breakfast was it felt like where I was sitting, like, hey, here's me poking fun at you with a little butter knife, and you've got a machete or a chainsaw.

And it's like, oh. But you started the morning by saying, hey, maybe I did overreact. I'm like, cool, that's all I needed to say. It was like, cool, I appreciate that you understand that you might have hurt my feelings a little bit. Right, and I think over the course of our relationship, the sort of sensitivity of it is that there was no butter knife. I'm not gonna let you play it off

like you were somehow just making a joke. In my mind, that's what I think I'm doing. I'm saying you've given me something to think about. Maybe I am a lot meaner than I think I am. It's not even mean. It's not mean. What I'm saying is for whatever reason, whether it's your dad or your mom or your three sisters,

whatever reason. I have bottled up eggs. No, no. It's just the nature of your defensiveness is about disarming people. you can either do that through humor or you can get them a little off kilter by innately sensing their vulnerabilities out of you know you know some sort of mutant empathy and just you know poking so it's not you may be poking with a butter knife but these weren't failed jokes it was just it was a way that you the in

what you bring up and the tone in which you do it so i i'm not going to say like i'm not going to let it kind of you know come off as sort of like you know we were just busting balls then i lost my shit i mean you know ultimately the moment i lost my shit was as an example of what you do and you you clearly knew and know it was true because it it's just a way of of slight social undermining that gives you a little uh a little uh leg up okay how about this the same because i did chat with stacy my wife a little little bit about this. Remember how you said, I don't see myself that way? So same thing with me. I don't see it that way.

I don't, like to me, it's like, it is ball busting or it is whatever. And it's like, no, dude, like you have, because people have said that to me before. Like, dude, it's not just what you said. It's kind of how you said it. And again, like I know people think I'm a dick. Like that's never been, that's not a mystery.

Well, that's, but this is the, I'm trying to explore the core of that dickishness this is the core of your dickishness it's not it's the way you said it it may not seem like you said it's just if you've had that you know you say i know i'm a dick i know what kind of dick i am do you know what kind of dick you are well apparently i don't that's what i'm saying is that's where we've gone with this is that i i think i think i'm using a butter knife you're like no matt and that's bullshit that's the part that i'm trying to take in that when i can get past the part where my feelings hurt it's like no dude you need to take that in that like you think you're being this harmless dude but you could be really hurtful and so that's the

part i'm trying to own like okay cool I can maybe not say things that would necessarily be that- Sliding or diminishing or kind of taking it down a notch. You know, it's sort of drawing attention to the sort of what wasn't great as opposed to leading with the good foot. Right. Well. And like what we said this morning, I said the thing that I awoke to at 5.30 was like, wait a minute. The first thing Mark said when I sat down was taking a shot at me. Yes, yes.

But you don't... But it was so clear. It was so clear. And you completely knew and expected that from me, right? So now taking a shot, which is bullying, and I was trying to be funny, and I was almost trying to get a laugh out of you, but I know it's hurtful and probably more hurtful in this situation

than what I'm used to really acknowledging, is taking a shot is not what you do. What do what do i do it's it's it's sort of like it's um if you if you're going to use the butter knife analogy it's like uh you don't know quite know you just got hit until it's sort of like oh okay shit it i was what i did was clearly a shot and i guess it was much like the ones you do okay fine fine when i similar when i sit down and the first thing you say is hey i know you like that movie but did you show anybody first i mean did you really that was kind of funny but i think the thing that was more similar to you

is sort of like well for me like i didn't quite get it because i didn't understand the sport so i'm assuming it's probably for people in the sport, right? For the most part. But I thought you might enjoy it and it gives us something to talk about career-wise. But we're not going to have that conversation again. I did enjoy it. But you made the point, it was like, well, at the very beginning,

I kind of put that thing there about how many miles it was. And I didn't remember that at all. But those were similar to the type of shots you take, yes. Right, and that's all I wanted to, that's part of... So we're similar, yes. Right, and that's all I wanted to, that's part of. So we're the similar. Right.

Right. But apparently, like, I'd had enough. Yes. Like, after an hour of talking to you, I'm like, enough of this guy. But the built-up angst and all of it. I mean, again, like, guys like us sometimes aren't friends because we kind of see it in each other right away.

Yeah. But because we bonded initially over sobriety and then, well, I think like I always had the feeling of, and one of the reasons why I think we still remain friends is like, I think from the day I met you, I had this sort of like, who the fuck does this guy think he is?

You know what I mean? Because you kind of had this weird kind of like, I'm all good. I get this swagger and I'm like, no you're not. But you understand where all of that comes from. Sure, we explained it. I think all I need to do here in this coda that you wanted to save face somehow

is is I apologize for the outburst. All right. I got a little emotional. I think this makes everything better for both of us, don't you think? Mm-hmm. The coda. Mm-hmm. I think that's a nice word.

And you've done it before, right? It's not unprecedented to have the coda. No, I have. I'm trying to remember when. Maybe once or twice. But there's been times where I've been on the mics and we've turned them off. And we've been like, well, let's finish it.

It's happened before. Yeah. Do you want to plug the movie? Sure. So listen, if you are interested in learning about this crazy wacky world of obstacle racing i have a movie out called the world's toughest 100 mile race you can find it on youtube just google world's toughest mutter documentary and it should come right up and if you're interested in all things obstacle racing you can check out

obstacle racing media yeah i would do that as well i would i would also like if you're not familiar with it really kind of look into how the races work because i think it'll add to your experience yes don't and don't sleep on that first 30 seconds don't get the popcorn watch the introduction all right buddy love you buddy love you too bye all right so i guess that's resolution. You know, we're still in contact. You can find all of Matt's stuff at obstacleracingmedia.com. Hang out a minute.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5pm start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario

Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Folks, if you're a Full Marin subscriber, you've been getting bonus episodes every Tuesday since we started doing WTF+. But this year, we also started doing the Friday show every week.

And if you don't know what that is, WTF producer Brendan McDonald and our Air America radio colleague Chris Lopresto host an end-of-the-week wrap-up show where they talk about behind- behind the scenes WTF stuff and whatever else is on their minds. So sad to hear that this lovely story that Mark has brought up a few times about this inter species video is complete bullshit. Oh, my God. All right. So I this is what happened with that story. So crazily, I didn't plan for this i didn't tell him like i didn't remind him hey you brought up this turtle thing in the talk with peter sarsgaard right because he brought it up with peter sarsgaard and i was like turtle video whatever this is and then he sends me his intro and i listen to it and it's this turtle thing comes up again i'm like

oh wow like so that's gonna lead in to the interview and i literally had the thought in the moment i'm like there's no way this is a fucking real video but i can't i I'm, I do not want to look it up. Like I want plausible deniability for this, right? Like I want to be able to make this happen because it creates a very nice through line from the intro to Peter Sarsgaard and like the things that Mark is currently kind of concerned about. Right. Right.

So then Tuesday morning I get get a text it's like seven o'clock his time it must have been something he like woke up to and it just says shark turtle video was fake there's no hope so he sends me this video which is the like the the fact check right showing that this this video was fake so i press play on this thing and the first thing it shows is the fake version of this video uh it's the fakest fucking thing i've ever seen in my life so i watched this and i could not help it i had to like take my shot on mark i said it doesn't even matter if that was real or not i said if it was real my immediate reaction to that video is oh look a shark is trying to eat that turtle and lucky for the turtle there was a boat there like in no circumstance would i ever have watched that video and thought look at that shark trying

to save that turtle like no he's clearly trying to eat it there's a new friday show tomorrow on the full marin and then we'll have a special presentation of the friday show for everyone Like, no, he's clearly trying to eat it. There's a new Friday show tomorrow on The Full Marin, and then we'll have a special presentation of the Friday show for everyone on New Year's Day. To subscribe to The Full Marin so you can get every bonus episode, plus all WTF episodes ad-free, go to the link in the episode description to sign up, or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Yes. Guitar time. on WTF Plus. Yes.

Guitar time. Stratocaster. No pedals. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. Cat angels everywhere. Thank you.