WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1500 - Paul Giamatti

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

Paul Giamatti and Marc have so many similar interests - amassing books, admiring marginal geniuses, taking jobs out of panic, reassessing classic movies, watching old late night talk show clips, wanting to be the guy in the coffee shop, the origins of conspiracies - that their conversation is a fitting representation of 1500 episodes of WTF. Paul also talks about the weirdest movie he made and goes into detail about his recent performance in The Holdovers. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind.

A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. mind your business. All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, what is going on out there? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast WTF. Welcome to it.

This is the 1500th episode. Is that a big deal? It's a lot of episodes. It makes me feel like sometimes if I don't know if I've talked to somebody or not that I'm not losing my mind. It's just hard to keep it all in my head. There's been times recently where I'm like, did we interview that guy? I don't know. I got to go check myself. It's like my part of my brain is the website for this podcast and Brendan McDonald's memory. Those are two functioning parts of my mind right now in terms of how long it's been and what we've been doing here. Anyway, look, 1500. Now, look, I want to talk about it for a minute because, as some of you know, over the years, we've done special episodes for these 00 episodes.

Okay. Yes, it's a milestone, 1500, but it's also just another episode. And the last time we tried to, I remember for the a thousandth, we, uh, we reached out to Bob Dylan. Well, it was like this big process and I probably told this story before, but it was just one of these, uh, revelatory moments where the booking agents told me like, hey, maybe you write a handwritten letter. So I write this handwritten letter and I scan it and I send it off to Bob Dylan's guy. And it's very thoughtful and it's for the thousandth. And then the bookers recommend I just call Rosen. That's Dylan's guy.

Call Jeff. Just talk to him. So I got on the phone with Jeff Rosen, Dylan's guy. And I'm like, so listen, Jeff, you know, we met a few years back. You know, I met him years ago when I was at Short Attention Span Theater. And he's like, yeah, I remember. I'm like, well, look, you know, we got this thousandth episode and it's be, you know, it's a kind of a big deal for us.

Big deal for our listeners. And we just think it'd be amazing if maybe Bob Dylan would, uh, would be the 1000th guest on, uh, my amazing podcast. Uh, so what are the chances of that happening, Jeff? And Jeff said, zero, Zero. He said he's got no axe to grind. He's not very good at it in many ways. And I'm like, well, thanks for that. But that told me a couple of things. It was like, all right, well, maybe this isn't as big a deal as I think it is. My show. We ended up having a great show without him despite that. But this one, now, yes, look, I've talked to a lot of people. There are very few people that I haven't talked to that I really want to talk to. And we were thinking about how we were going to do this. And the truth is, this is just another episode when it comes right down to it. Look, if we've done our jobs here, episode 1500 should be as true to the show as episode 100 or 500 or 1400.

You know, I mean, we always wonder if we should do something special. But the truth of the matter is, like, look at Albert Brooks. Albert Brooks was a guest who definitely fits the description of a 1500th episode guest. Now, we got Albert Brooks, and he wanted his episode to air close to the release of his documentary in November. And he also, between us, thought that being the 1500th guest would be too much pressure. So he was happy that it didn't time out right. That's true. Now, I think what happened during this talk with Paul Giamatti

is actually the ideal version of what can happen when someone shows up in my garage and it just clicks. And this happens a lot. It's not a rare thing, but it's been happening pretty consistently for 1500 shows. And this, this show of Paul, we did it a couple of weeks ago and we kind of sat on it. And, uh, I said, right after it was done, I said, that one's a great one. I mean, that's, that's exactly what we do here. I mean, look, when I started this show, I was just trying to reconnect with my community, to talk to my peers. There was a lot of apologizing going on.

At the beginning, there was no real professional boundary there. I don't have boundaries. They were still on my show. I was going to talk. I was there to talk to them. And as I tell people sometimes when they ask me, you know, how I developed my interview process, I'll say, look, for the first hundred episodes, it was just me inviting celebrities over to talk about my problems. The point is those conversations were engaged. They were familiar. They were with people I kind of knew almost. But now as time went on, people got more famous.

They got more notable. And my life grew bigger because of this podcast. I mean, even when we did Robin Williams, who was certainly more famous and more notable, but I kind of knew that guy. You know, we knew of each other. But, you know, then we had a president on. I didn't know that guy. I did not know President Barack Obama before

he came to my house. No idea. I had a sense of who he was and what he'd done. I knew what his job was, but that's the point. My life over time grew because of this podcast. It grew to include broadening my audience, building a bigger audience, having a successful stand-up career, having my own show on IFC, having a successful acting career, kind of getting more skilled and deeper with what I do here and all other parts of my life. I mean, it really has changed. Some things haven't changed. Okay. Some things haven't changed. Like for instance, I just quit nicotine again. For those of you who've been with me for since the beginning, how many fucking times have I been through this cycle? I'm at the end of my rope right now. Every nerve, every, I'm on my

last nerve. Is that what they say? I'm a fucking raw nerve right now. Every nerve, every, I I'm on my last nerve. Is that what they say? I'm a fucking raw nerve right now. Cause I do the same thing with nicotine all the time. Some of you know this, this is a consistent pattern. There are consistent patterns in my life, but in terms of my abilities, creatively, personally with this show, with the other things with acting, that's all evolving. I'm definitely a different guy but god damn i want to want some nicotine i'll be all right i just i get to the point i hit a wall and i think that you know my pancreas is going to fall out and everything's shutting down and i got off but it's like the excitement of deep addictive craving uh is not to be fucked with. Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo!

It's something, man. I'm lit up. And I know the only thing that can put it out is some nicotine. I'm not going to have it. Look, some things about me are consistent. Some of my behavior, some of my tics, some of my habits, they're consistent. But over the arc of this podcast,

who I am in the world, my skill set, my creativity, how I engage with people, the depth I've been able to access in myself and others has all expanded and changed. 1500th episode, I'm going to be sitting here with a guy who's on an Oscar campaign and I'm having the same type of kind of engaged, connected, authentic conversation that I had with my comedian friends when I started out on this show, however many years ago was that. started out on this show, however many years ago was that. And now I can speak about a different skill set. And now I can create a familiarity with people who, who I wouldn't have early on. I didn't even really like to have actors on early on, but that's not the point. Obviously the connection between me and Paul is deeper than, you know, acting or whatever. We just hit it off. between me and Paul is deeper than, you know, acting or whatever. We just hit it off. And,

and I, and I, and I can do that with a lot of people and I don't know where it's going to go. And I just knew when I was done with this thing, it was a great episode. And the bottom line is that a lot has changed in 1500 episodes, but some very important things haven't changed at all. And that is why it is still rewarding to do this. I don't know what's going to happen. I did not know what was going to happen with Paul. I assume that things are going to happen that don't. And usually that's a good thing, but it's sort of fucking amazing that we're still operating at this level. And, and here's the thing about what we do here is that you listen to this Paul Giamatti episode and you kind of get an, you know, Paul Giamatti,

right? You know him, right? You got a good sense of Paul Giamatti, but you don't really. I didn't. And I think he may have surprised himself during this conversation. It's just something happens in this room and in the old garage and on these mics and in that chair across from me that the president sat in. Something happens sometimes where there's such an honest, candid, connected engagement that you get a very full sense in a very deep way. Even if the conversation isn't deep, you get a very full sense in a very deep way of who we are because it's not about information. It's about connection. And that's really the nuance of one doing audio and two, not doing a structured journalistic

interview, whatever those are. But I just feel like, yeah, you think, you know, Paul, now you will. I don't think you did before. That's all I'm saying. That's the best I can do. So folks, I'm at Largo in Los Angeles on Tuesday, January 9th, San Diego. I'm at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows. San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. Portland, Maine, I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts

outside of Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater on Wednesday, April 3rd. Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th. Chicago at the Vic on Friday, April 5th. And Minneapolis, I'm at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th.

Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets. All right? So, Paul Giamatti. I love the guy. Who doesn't love Paul Giamatti? I mean, how is that not... Everyone's one of their favorite actors. I mean, how is that not? Everyone's one of their favorite actors.

I mean, come on. I watch Sideways two or three times a year. I love that fucking movie. This new movie he's in, The Holdovers. He's great. There's an intensity to him. I just watched Cinderella Man again. Great.

He's just, you guys, this is one of our great American actors. This is Paul Giamatti. But this is our 1500th episode. And I did not know. I did not know. I never know what's going to happen. But let me tell you something. Whatever happened with me and Paul in this talk happened right away.

And it stuck. It stayed there. So The Holdovers is now streaming on Peacock and playing in select theaters. This is a classic WTF episode for our 1500th with the inimitable Paul Giamatti. we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy?

If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business.

Well, that's what happened to me at the other place. It was a cute house and everything, but it had a lot of history there. Yeah. A lot of things went down. A lot of things good. A lot of things bad. That's part of what it is. Yeah, layers of stuff. Yes.

And when I finally, when a girlfriend finally found this house, she said, what about this one? I'm like, I'll buy it. I'll buy that house. Yeah. I don't miss that fucking place at all. Yeah. I don't think I'd miss. I don't think I'd miss. I have'll buy that house. Yeah. I don't miss that fucking place at all. Yeah. I don't think I'd miss, I don't think I'd miss,

I have a lot of books. Yeah. Which is great, but then they start to feel, that starts to feel crazy. And I start to feel, I said the other day, I feel like,

you know the Collier brothers were, they were the two kind of really crazy, I think they were twins. Yeah. And they lived in New York. Yeah. In sort of the early 1900s. And they were super,

I think they were really wealthy and hoarding and one guy got buried under the bookshelf falling over on him and the other guy couldn't find him. And I was like, and for some reason, I just feel like the books are great, but they're actually depressing me now. I got a whole room of them. But let me ask you a question.

I mean, I know you grew up in academia to a degree, but I always aspired to having the books. Me too. And like, I used to talk about like, you know, and I look at the books and maybe in a third of them, there's a bookmark at page 30. Maybe. There's so many of them are abandoned and it's just, the whole thing is actually getting depressing to me well that's because we're getting to a certain age well there's that too but it's a compulsion too it's like i can't stop buying them so then i that which makes me feel crazy what was the last book you bought oh i just bought a bunch i just bought like 10 books i come out here one of the reasons i like coming out here yeah and actually glendale's interesting. One of the reasons I like coming out here. Yeah. And actually Glendale's interesting.

Yeah. One of the reasons I like coming out here is there's really good used bookstores out in L.A. Okay. What were you searching for? Like old shitty sci-fi books. Oh, that's good. Oh, it's great. Yeah.

But I have way too many of them. And now I'm the guy who's like, I'm going to have five editions of the same thing just because I like the different covers. Sure. You're a completist. You have to have. I don't know. It's like, it's compulsive. It's just like, oh, that's a new one.

It's a maniac. Yes. Oh, that's a cool cover. It's weird. I kind of stopped buying books. I was always the guy that would buy the books, you know, like the postmodern philosophy that I could never understand. Never read them.

Never understand. I have a lot of that shit. Well, I used to do it. Never read them. Never understand. I have a lot of that shit. Well, I used to do it. Never read it. I try. Me too. Never read it. Well, the observation I had,

and I've said it on stage before, is that the thing about those books is like, oh, look at these books. Oh. And I'll underline, dude. Oh. I'll underline. Sure.

But I retain nothing. Nothing. And it's almost like just having the thing itself. I'm somehow going to absorb something from it. Well, that's what I realized is that when you're reading it, it feels like you're thinking it. Yes, that's true. And then it's over.

But you're not. No, totally. Then it's gone. It's gone. It's gone. And I have a ton of science books. Oh. Physics and all of the quantum shit.

But I understand, and I try, and talk about a bookmark at about 10 pages in, and I'm done. You try with physics. Oh, I try with all kinds of science. I remember when I was younger when chaos theory was a thing. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. All of that kind of shit.

I got to get that. Love it. Oh, this is fascinating. And I get the gist of it, and that's sort of good enough. Yeah. I have the gist of a lot of things. Yeah, and just so you can, when people bring it up, you can at least nod in agreement without lying,

knowing that you read it, but you can't really engage in the whole conversation. Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. And now I get sent books from publishers and people. Oh, I bet. And there was a lot of that going on. And some of that, I've grown able to get to unload them.

But I still have the core bunch. Yes, I know what you mean. I have the core bunch of about 1,000 or 1,500. Easily, yeah. And then here's the other thing about the books is, like, you can start to smell the paper rot. Oh, yeah. So that room. But I kind of like it because I have the room.

I do, too. Like, this was all in my old garage. But the smell of that. No, no. I realize. It's specific. I realize. I was going to say to you, one of the reasons I used to come.

The only reason I would come to Glendale when I come out here was there were a bunch of good used bookstores. And I've been obsessed with used bookstores my whole life. Well, yeah. And then I realized what I've done to my apartment is I've been obsessed with used bookstores my whole life. And then I realized what I've done to my apartment is I've recreated a used bookstore. And it smells like

the fucking place. And it's, I'm not kidding. I swear to God, what I've done is created a used bookstore. Yeah. Well, let me know

when you open it to the public. I'm thinking about it. I've thought about it. I've thought about that too. But then even if you want to have a garage sale, you gotta, they're gonna come to your house.

They're gonna come to my house and they're gonna to take shit and I'm going to be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, not that one. Yeah, you can be that guy. Yes. It seems like you have your future planned. And they're going to take me feet first out of a hefty bag just dead. After they lift the bookshelf off you. Totally.

Totally. It's going to happen. But how big is the place? Two bedroom? Yeah, it's a two bedroom. It's a nice place, but it's all books shelves. The whole apartment's bookshelf. And you don't have a house somewhere? No, I don't have a house. I used to have a house in Venice, but I never lived there.

I bought it a long time ago. And then I never lived there. It was a rental property. I just sold it like a year ago. It was Yeah. It was nice. It was great, but I never lived there. So what are you reading now? Is it all sci-fi? I'm reading a mystery novel right now, but I do read a lot of sci-fi. Yeah?

That's the thing is I'm not reading, I'm not doing a lot of heavy lifting. I'm not sitting around reading Dostoevsky and shit. I'm reading like old science fiction. I'd like to reread Dostoevsky. That's the other dream. It's like, I'm going to go back to crime and punishment. And you get to a certain age, I can't even manage the names.

Yeah, well, there's that too. I can't remember the names. And then I read much more slowly now too, which is good in a way. I like to read nonfiction. See, I'm not good at reading nonfiction. You're not? No. Every now and then I'll hit a nonfiction thing, generally a biography, and if I get

through it, I feel really accomplished. I'm like, wow, I got through that. I did my own work. No, I did. No, and it generally has to be kind of racy or something because otherwise, I get lost. But also, the thing with nonfiction is I start going, I can't remember

the dates, I can't remember the names, but I've never been able to do that. So, it is like homework. I get very, very, like, I gotta remember the names, I't remember the dates. I can't remember the names. But I've never been able to do that. So it is like homework. I get very, very like, I got to remember the names. I got to remember the dates. Yeah, yeah. I get so proud when I finish a book. Like, I'll have it on the table for a long time. People come by, like, well, how's that book?

I finished it. That's the same way. Very proud. So ridiculous. It's really stupid. So let's, like, where'd you grow up? New Haven, Connecticut. All right. So let's deal with this thing. Like, so Sally's or Frank Pepe's? Oh yeah, right. Okay. Pepe's. No, no, no, no, absolutely. Pepe's, Pepe's. Have you been there? Yeah. Have

you been to those pizza places? Yes. Both of them? Yep. Now there's other ones. No, I know, I know. But like you grew up with it, but I's other ones, too. No, I know. I know. But you grew up with it. But I didn't know about the phenomenon of it. And look, I went to school in Boston. I started my comedy career doing... Yeah. I know that drive from Boston to New York.

Where are you from? Well, I grew up in New Mexico. Okay. My folks are from Jersey, so I always had a relationship. But I was in Boston for years. So I know that run from Boston to New York and everything in between. everything in between and like and i actually auditioned for yale drama school in the most ridiculous really it was ridiculous why i don't even want i can't even your oh your dad was probably president at the time probably he might have been it was it had to be possible right uh

it was uh when was it do you remember it was 85, 86. No, I don't think he was anymore then. But just, you know. I was so cocky and so not prepared. And I remember very well because I was like, I'd gotten the audition. I'd done a little acting in college. And Derek Walcott, I took a playwriting seminar with him. But I was bad at all this. And I remember I was like, I'm going to go audition for Yale Drama School.

And so I had no idea about show business or about what it took. So for a headshot, I gave a photo booth, like a strip of photo booth pictures. That's great. Right. And then I needed a referral letter. So I was like, I've got to get Derek to give me one. The day before, I went over to his apartment on campus, and I knocked on the door. I'm like, will you write me a referral for Yale?

And he was in his bathrobe, and he had this big Caribbean man. He's like, okay. Come in. He stands up. He types it on a hand typewriter and sends me away with it. How the fuck did you not get in to some place? Because that would have been, I mean, I would have taken you in a heartbeat. Right.

I thought that the audacity of it. I mean, I would have thought you were in a heartbeat. Right, I thought that the audacity of it. I mean, just, yeah, absolutely. But they're not in audacity. No, they're not in some ways. I think you're right. But here's what I realized, though. I'm waiting to do the audition. There's a woman waiting and she is deep into some

heavy, kind of like she's rehearsing with her hands, like, whoa! Yeah. And she's doing movement. Sure, Grotowski or whatever thating with her hands, like, whoa, whoa. And she's doing movement. Sure, Grotowski or whatever that stuff is. Yeah, whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some kind of movement.

What was that Japanese method? Buto. Yeah, it was like crazy. And I had that moment, like, before I'm about to go in, not on, like, an audition, where I'm like, oh, I'm not getting this. Oh, dear. I don't know, man.

I would have taken it. Do you remember what you did? Did you have to do monologues and stuff? Yeah, and I picked some weird fucking, you know, dear. I don't know, man. I would have taken. Do you remember what you did? Did you have to do monologues and stuff? Yeah, and I picked some weird fucking Greek. I didn't even do Shakespeare for the classic. It was some Greek thing. I'm mispronouncing things. I did a Sam Shepard piece for the current one.

I don't remember if it was Cowboy Mouth or something. Oh, excellent. But I'm like, I decided that an action I would do, I would jerk off my belt. Awesome. Oh, my God. And they were just looking at me, Paul. I've been in charge, man. You would have absolutely been in charge.

They were just looking at me. And it was like, it's one of those, you know those moments when you're doing acting, auditioning or whatever, and you're not in a production, but you're being judged by people yes and they're they they they're right up there on the list of the most embarrassing moments of your fucking life couldn't possibly be more embarrassing it was one of those the most naked vulnerable idiotic yeah yeah and i was it's a long drive back to boston oh god i that. I love hearing that. I wish you'd gotten in. It would have been great.

You think? I might have learned how to do it. No, you would have been fantastic. It would have been good to have some context. There was a guy in my class. I went to the old drum school. There was a guy like that in my class. Really?

He laughed after the first year. Why? I just don't know. Couldn't handle it? Yeah. No, he could handle it. He couldn't handle him. Yeah.

And it was like, he just couldn't. He was great. Yeah? Great actor. And it's like, I think he still acts. Yeah? He was fantastic. Yeah.

I loved him. And he was the best. Well, there's always that guy. Because he didn't give a shit. Right. He didn't give a shit. There's always the guy that's like, you remember that guy? He was a genius.

And no one knows what happened to him. Totally. Yeah. He was the first guy. 90% of the time, not a good story. No, it's not. Probably not. But he was the first guy I can remember.

This is, you know, what is this? The early 90s. First guy I can remember seeing walking around in his pajamas. Yeah. You know, wearing his pajama top out in public. Yeah. Wearing his pajama bottoms out in public or wearing his pajama bottoms out in public.

And I remember thinking, this is special. This guy's got something. He's really, this guy has definitely got it going on. He's on his own time zone, this guy. He's a genius. He's a genius. The pajama top genius. Yes.

He's a genius. And he really was a brilliant actor. Of course. But if you have a certain type of sensitivity and you come from a mild insanity yourself, you're always going to think that lunatics are geniuses. Geniuses. Geniuses. But if you can't apply it.

No, it's not genius. I guess not. It really is that thing. They're just special, man. They're just like. They're just special. They're really interesting. Sure.

I've followed a lot of those guys around. You must have. You must have, right? I mean, there must be so many of those guys. In comedy and in life. I remember one time when I was a kid. Comedy seems to be just chock-a-block with guys like that. Well, sure.

We're kind of asocial. Yeah. You know, loners. And that's a definite indication that you've got something special going on. Of course, if you're completely asocial. Yeah, because you can't fit into the normal expectations of life. No. And then you just decide to do this job

where you wander around from town to town staying in shitty hotels and talking to strangers. It's not what it used to be. But I remember when I was in high school, I got obsessed with this guy. I worked at a restaurant across from the university. And there was like a schizophrenic guy who used to sit there. And he wore these lace-up boots to his fucking knees and shorts and a denim vest.

And he would smoke Winchesters. And he would draw pictures that made no sense. And I'm like, no one knows, but this guy. Guy's a fucking genius. He's on to something. He's totally on to something. And I brought him to my house. I took him on like a stray animal.

Risky. My mom knew him. You know, like. Did you find out his story? Was it like he was like, oh, this guy was a minister at one time or something? I think what it was, and this has happened to me before in terms of like trying to get backstory. I figured out his name. And I think he was like living in an abandoned house.

Yeah. And I figured out that he was from Jersey or somewhere. And he used to drew pictures of guns and he'd write a lot of things that didn't make sense. And it was art. It looked like outsider art. Yeah, yeah. And his name was Pete Newhart

and I tracked down his family. Holy shit. And he was like, he was just, what he usually is is the family's like, the family's like, yes, we know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, we did everything we could. He's been gone for years.

No, totally, totally. Yale, New know, we did everything we could. He's been gone for years. No, totally. Totally. Yale, New Haven was filled with fascinating people like this. Well, I think universities attract people like this. And you grew up in, like, you grew up the whole time in New Haven when your dad was, like, a professor first? I was a professor for years, yeah. So I grew up in New Haven, yeah. And, like, they were just around. They gravitate to the university.

I think they do. Yeah. You know what I mean? And they're at the university too. Yeah. There's all the kind of eternal perpetual grad student guys. Yeah. And women who are kind of there forever.

Yeah. And they're fucking weird. Yeah. And they're hanging around the coffee shops. Yeah. And they've got stacks of books and they've been there forever. Oh, those coffee shops. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they're like, you know. And they're almost the same thing sure and it's very much this kind of like marginal genius thing right of some guy who's up there studying mesopotamian poetry sure yeah he's never gonna fucking do anything but that cracking the cuneiform code yes exactly exactly cracking the mayan hieroglyphs yeah yeah and he who the fuck knows where he's from yeah and where he's you, and he's just found this place and that's where he's landed and he's never going to leave. And that's what I feel like in my apartment. Yeah, yeah.

But you're not. I don't know. I'm worried I am. But you know what the weird thing is? I think that certain type of people, and I'm one of them, you're jealous of those guys. That's the fucked up thing. I know. I'm really envious.

There's a strange desire to be one of those guys. Yeah, yeah. No, totally. That guy doesn't give a fuck. He doesn't give a fuck. And he's off on his own stupid weird thing.

Yeah, yeah. And he's studying the Babylonian shit. He's doing the most marginal fucking thing possible. And that's awesome. Yeah. Well, the thing we don't see is when they're at home going like, what am I doing?

Totally. Totally. But I think in my imagination, they don't have that moment. They never do that. I think in my mind, they never have that moment. Yeah. They just, they're always the weirdo. They're always, they're happy to be the weirdo.

They're happy to be the marginal genius nobody listens to and nobody pays any attention to. Yeah, yeah. But I can't, I don't think that's true. No, no, no. They're all mentally ill, Paul. There's just no room in the hospital for them. No, there really isn't. No, they found a different hospital. Sure, yeah. But like, I know that whole

vibe that, you know, that coffee shop scene, the big work, like, because I was in Boston for years and Harvard Square used to have that. Absolutely. You know, there were just those places where... Totally. big work like because i was in boston for years in harvard square used to have that absolutely you know there were just those places where totally the way i but for me my friend used to call it the off-campus housing guys yeah you know what i mean the dudes who are you know you're living off campus there's some guy down the hallway who's some weird guy and like who's been in the house for 30 years totally and he's watched several different crews of undergrads and grads. Totally.

And every now and then, oh, he left me a pot of beans outside my door. What the fuck? Yeah, the guy down the hall. It's just weird. He's got a monkey, I think, in there. You know what I mean? It's just like, what is going on? Yep.

I lived in a house like that in Somerville. Yes. Everybody. Yeah, I did too in New Haven. I don't know. Do they exist still? I wonder, actually. I think we were the last generation. But that's interesting.

Why doesn't it exist anymore? Where's it gone? Because I think you're right. It doesn't really happen so much anymore. Because I think we were tethered to the sort of end of a wave that was connected to some intellectual artistic tradition that we still aspire to and i think once everything became fragmented and and more uh self-centered that and decontextualized because of the internet that there's no you don't feel that legacy anymore that's interesting i did

i sounded like one of those books fucking amazing amazing. You really took that. Did that make sense? It did, actually. And it's interesting, that thing of like subcultures are gone. I mean, it's obvious, I guess, but it's like they just disappeared with the Internet. I think so. Now everything's subculture. Yeah. Everything you can. Well, it's small.

It's over culture. Yeah, yeah. Everybody can find their own little cranny in the mediated world. Yeah. There was something about lack of mediation, I think, that helped things. Yes. I remember reading those books or taking that class about mediation and lenses and how most of what we take in is not really reality. Yes.

One of those. Yes. Frames of reference. Really true, dude. Yeah, it is. It seems like it. Yeah. So when you're growing up, so you, okay, we established Pepe's.

Yes. And that was it for you. Yeah. No clam pie at Sally's? No. Sally's was not, I don't know why, but my father wouldn't go there. He wouldn't set foot in there. My grandfather was settled in New Haven when they came from Italy.

Okay. So my grandfather had already grown up there going to Pepe's. Oh, so it was a family institution. I think so, yeah. I didn't know anything about this New Haven pizza shit until like a few years ago. Yeah. And there's a guy named Dean Falzone who like, you know, he's got a brother-in-law or something that, you know, wrote a book about it.

He made a movie about New Haven pizza. It's a thing. Yeah. No, I know it's a thing, but it's very specific. Very specific. It's not nationwide. It's like a coded thing. Like, it's only people who know New Haven pizza? It's a thing, yeah. No, I know it's a thing, but it's very specific. Very specific. It's not nationwide. It's like a coded thing. Like, there's only people

who know New Haven. It's not like Chicago pizza versus New York pizza. No. When you bring up New Haven, they're like, what are you talking about? Yeah.

They don't make it anywhere else. They really don't, though. I've never had any pizza like it anywhere else in the world, even. Is it great, though? I think it's great. Yeah.

But, like, my son, I took my son to have it, and he was sort of lukewarm about it. Yeah. He was not impressed. Yeah, because it didn't make sense. No. It doesn't quite make sense.

It was like, this is weird. Yeah, where's the sauce? It's too burned. Too burned. It's too chewy and too burned. And it was like- It's an acquired taste, kid. Yeah.

No, it was. And I had to keep saying them. But I keep insisting this is really the- I mean, for me, it is. Yeah. Nothing compares to it. But what, because the times, I've gone to New Haven a couple times. I play at that, what's that theater there?

Is this not the state theater? It's a little theater. Not the Shubert. No, it's like, it's right across from the place that makes the horrible burgers with the press. You know that. Louie's Lunch. Yeah. Where they claim to have invented the hamburger.

The cheeseburger with the machine. With the nasty, blackened, crusty things. With the upright, the vertical grills. With the vertical grills. So the fat drips out nicely. Yeah, yeah. So it's nice. But it's like right across from that, the theater.

And I can't remember what. Yeah, I know what you mean. I can't remember what it's called. Yeah. But, you know, so I go back and I'm there and I go to the museum and I'm on the campus a little bit. The art museum is great. You ever been to the Natural History Museum? No.

The Peabody Museum? No. You should next time you're in New Haven. Yeah. Go to the Peabody Museum. I stayed at that pretty hotel that's sort of a library themed thing. Yeah, yeah. No, I can tell you there was never anything like that.

It's weird when I see that hotel. It looks like a hotel from Santa Monica. Yeah, yeah, like it landed. Yeah. It's like, and when I see that New Haven, which was really a dumpy city. It was. Well, that's a question because you go back, was it, when you were growing up, was the Italian neighborhood still intact? Pretty Italian. Oh, really? That's where my grandfather grew up, yeah. So you would go over to your grandfather's? No, at that point, they lived up in Massachusetts. My dad was born in Boston and lived in that area, Massachusetts. All right.

And so, but my, I still had relatives in New Haven. Yeah. Italian relatives. Now? Yeah, probably. Yeah, I don't see them anymore. But there's, yeah, there's definitely a lot of Italians. But your mom's not Italian?

No. No. She was from New Jersey. She was from Plainfield. Jersey? Jersey. All right. She was from Jersey Shore and then Plainfield.

I got Jersey Shore people. Do you? Yeah. I think that's where my father's family landed. So when you're growing up, you got how many siblings? I had two. Now I just have one. Yeah.

My sister died in June. I'm sorry. That's all right. Yeah. Oh, you got the brother. I have a brother. Who's the actor? Who is also an actor. How's that going with you two? It seems to be going okay. He teaches it now, too. Oh, good for him. He teaches

at Temple. He teaches at Temple in Philadelphia. Good for him. Yeah. It's almost like when somebody breaks away from the dream, you're like, congratulations. Yeah. Listen, congratulations. Yeah. Listen, absolutely. And he's out there at Temple.

He still acts, but now he teaches, and I think he's a really good teacher. And he's happy? I think he's happier than probably, yeah. That's such good news. When I see somebody in comedy who I haven't seen in a while, and they're like, oh, yeah, I got out a long time ago, and I'm doing this. And I'm like, oh, good for you. Congratulations. Good for you.

I feel the same way. Good for you. Yeah. Absolutely. I feel the same way. I feel the same way. I think when you're in it long enough, even with the career that you have, you know that it's like one job to the next.

Absolutely. Chain smoking jobs. Just chain smoking. Doing several jobs at once. Well, you work all the time. I used to the next. Absolutely. Chain smoking jobs. Just chain smoking. Doing several jobs at once. Well, you work all the time. I used to do that. What? I'd do two or three jobs at the same time.

Like acting jobs? Yeah. I'd do two movies or something. Yeah. Because it was stupid. Just because of panic? Yes. Absolutely.

Completely because of panic. I was like, I can't. I'm going to. It's a shark thing. If I stop moving, I'm going to die. They're going to forget. They're going to forget. I'm going to, it's a shark thing. If I stop moving, I'm going to die. They're going to forget. They're going to forget. Everybody's going to forget. So I would do multiple things at once.

So your dad was an English professor? He was a comparative literature professor. So it was English and Italian stuff. And you grew up in that. The weight of it. Yeah. I mean, up in that. Yeah. The weight of it. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I liked it though. Yeah. Because again, it's like I liked the libraries and all that stuff. It's such a nice way to grow up. It's a really nice way to grow up.

Because it feels important. Yeah. It feels so, it's also very cozy. Yeah. It's cozy. It's like leather armchairs and lamps.

And if there's ever a disruption, you're like, who let them in? Yeah, totally. And people, there's pipe smoke. People smell people's mind. Father's colleagues, the pipe smoke. It's cozy.

Oh, yeah. But that's deceptive because it's a fucking shark tank. It's a shark tank. And also, it turns out, a lot of it is just a big racket. Mm-hmm. The college racket. Also a huge racket. Yeah.

Yep. Also a huge racket. But you decided not to go into arts and letters. You went into acting. How was that? But were you seeing productions at Yale? I mean, what inspired you to do it? Yeah.

I mean, there was stuff at the Yale Rep, and there were other theaters. There was this place called the Long Wharf Theater, which was like a regional theater. Yeah. My parents, you know, it's a university, so it's an artsy environment. So it's like, and my mom was really into taking us to plays, and my dad too, and movies and stuff. So it was a lot of that.

So I feel like we, like, I'm just barely a boomer, and you're sort of the next one. Yeah. But, like, there's this area there where we, you know, where it was the last sort of, you know, gasp of, of that type of culture

where we were actually part of that first generation revival movie house stuff. Yes. You know, all that stuff that happened

in the 30s, 40s, and 50s was being, you know, kind of assessed. Yeah. That's right.

Yeah. And coming back and you're absorbing all of that stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And like, it's coming back now a little bit. Like there's like, in this town, there's revival, yeah. Coming back and you're absorbing all of that stuff. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. And it's coming back now a little bit.

In this town, there's revival houses again. Yeah. American Cinematheque is doing a thing. Really? Yeah. Is it like the silent movie theater thing still? Does that place still exist? It's a movie theater, but it's no longer the silent movie theater.

It's not just silent movies. Well, it doesn't go that far back. But Tarantino's got his theater. Right, yeah. When it's not running weird grindhouse things that you know nine people want to see they've got so they sound like singaporean like yeah blood fest exactly cannibalism but like i went over there and i saw uh you know the in-laws recently and they let me and i saw i went to american cinema tech they let me, and I saw, I went to American Cinematheque. They let me host a screening and I chose Dog Day.

Yeah. And they found a perfect print of it. Oh, amazing. When was the last time you watched that movie? I haven't seen that in a while. Holy shit. You know, I saw last night,

I saw Blue Velvet was on TV. I saw that at Tarantino's place. Oh my God. That movie is perfect. Almost perfect. When was the last time you saw it? I don't think I'd seen it in maybe 15 years. Right.

I think I saw it when it came out and I'm seeing it. I saw it when it came out and then I think I saw it again and this was maybe the third time ever. I mean, it was a movie when I first saw it. I thought it was amazing. I did too, but I didn't realize that there was actually a story. Yeah. That's actually, no, no.

That's really funny you say that. Yeah. Because the last time I saw it and this time I saw it, I was like, oh, there's like a real kind of like pulpy noir story going on. Didn't notice it. Completely didn't get it the first time. No, not at all. And actually, it's kind of great.

And I was like, oh, it's like one of those noir movies. Exactly. I didn't really get that. Yeah, because we were overwhelmed with the Lynchian thing. Yes. And Dennis Hopper. Yeah. Actually, that was the whole thing when I was younger.

And he's not even in it that much, which I also realized now, too. Yeah, I couldn't believe that there was a story. I couldn't believe it either. And there's a real story. Totally. Yeah, genuinely a story. That's what it is about something. I know.

It's not just about like that. It's all drug dealers. Yes. Yeah. But that's an interesting thing to me, is that as I get older, like the stuff that struck me as weird when I was younger no longer seems as weird. Now it seems, and I don't know whether that's age, but now it just seems normal to me. Well, no, because I think when-

Like things that seem so surreal and strange. And now I look at it and I'm, I look at that movie now. It was so strange then. Now I look at it and I go, eh. Right. It seems like realism to me. But I think there's also the fact that when we're younger and we're aspiring to be either intellectual or an art or a film guy, you're wide open. But you're just wide open and you don't even know how to assess things. That's true.

Right? Yes. And I was looking for weirdness. Weirdness was going to be more sure as we've talked about we were trying to become the marginal guy there's got to be a path there has to be a training you got to train yourself to be the marginal guy that's right though i had the same experience with paris texas which i saw when it came out and i had no idea what it was about no but a lot of things are like that i I remember making myself watch the movie Solaris.

Oh, yeah, yeah. The original one? Yes. Making myself watch it. And it was fucking, it felt like it was 17 hours long. Yeah. It was just brutal. I don't even know.

It felt like I'd been beaten up afterwards. And they remade that, didn't they, with Clooney? Yeah. I've never seen that. I've never seen that either. But then I saw it again not that long ago. like oh yeah there's a story it's actually pretty coherent it's not that and you're kind of like okay all right it's weird but it's not but i just remember it being this mad fucking thing but you're right your brain is not formed i think that's it no your

brain really literally is informed yeah my son is 22 years old i'm like his brain's still not formed yeah you're just taking stuff in yeah oh yeah do you have any of your movies that you like look at and you're like oh my god what was that probably i don't know i don't watch i don't watch a whole lot of them but like weird some of the weird yeah i mean i did this kids movie that's probably the weirdest thing. Really? Yeah, I did this movie called Big Fat Liar. Yeah. That's like kids, generations of people have seen this thing.

It's just bizarre. Yeah. I mean, it's really strange. Yeah. Well, maybe that's going to be one of those movies when these kids grow up, like, I had no idea what that was about. Totally. That would be amazing.

If that was their fucking, if that was their Paris, Texas. And their blue velvet. Oh, I'd love that, actually. That would be great. I've never even thought that that's going into people, kids' heads, and it might be the same thing. I never thought about that. Yeah. That is fucking some bizarre thing that's going to haunt a kid.

Of course it is. Yeah. I know, but I never really think of that. Yeah. That is fucking some bizarre thing that's going to haunt a kid. Yeah. I know, but I never really think of that. I was recently exploring the fact that my grandparents accidentally took

me and my brother when they were visiting us in New Mexico to see Deliverance, not knowing what it was, like when it came out. Sure. And the weird thing

about that though, Paul, was that, like I remember the rape scene, but all I remember, like scene, but all I remember, because all I remember was there was a man in his underwear, and they're making him make noises.

Yeah, right. That's all I remember. And then I watched it again recently, and I'm like, holy fuck. Holy shit. They really raped that guy. That movie's terrifying. But my child brain didn't register it.

No, you didn't get it. Yeah, exactly. No, you just didn't get it. It's the same with Blue Velvet. My mother did that with Blue Velvet. My mother did that with Blue Velvet. My mother did that stuff, took us through like wildly inappropriate things like that. I'm glad because it went in,

you know what I mean? Like I absorbed it. And that's cool because something went in there in an interesting way. But I didn't know what the fuck was going on. I remember seeing the conversation. Yeah, that's a hard movie. And it was terrifying to me. It was just scary. I was like, I don't know what's going on. I have no idea what's going on yeah i remember seeing the conversation yeah and it was terrifying to me

it was just scary i was like i don't know what's going on i have no idea that guy's just taking apart his entire house i don't know what's going on but it terrified yeah yeah because i absorbed the menace of the obsession i got the menace right right nothing else and that's a very like mental menace yeah uh yeah you feel the menace of it even as a little kid. So, so you decide, you go to Yale undergrad? Yeah.

And you study what? I studied English. I ended up studying English. Did you take your dad's class? No, he was not there anymore. Oh, he wasn't? No.

No, he'd left, he'd left by then. Where'd he go? He sort of didn't do anything for a little while. Was that a weird time? Probably for him it was,

yeah. Were your parents together? Yes, they were. Yes. Yes, they were together. That's good. I guess. I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, probably would have been better not to. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, he took like, he took a couple, maybe a year

or two before he, yeah. Became the baseball commissioner? Before he went into baseball. But he was the president of you he was for years no not for that long i think most of those guys stay in that job for years yeah i don't think he liked doing it it's hard to be a bureaucrat in academia yeah my buddy's not fun i don't think he's a writer he's a teacher at columbia and he's a brilliant guy yeah sam lipsight yeahight. But like when you hear about what it takes to be like a tenured guy and just to deal with

school stuff. Like I said, it's a shark tank and it's like I don't think he, I think he thought that was going to be maybe more enjoyable than it was and it wasn't. Yeah, because you're a manager. You're a manager. At best. It's like you're just a money, you're raising money the whole time. So when you did undergrad, did you learn anything?

What was your focus? I guess like American, sort of 19th century American stuff, like Poe and Melville. Oh, really? Which are stuff I like to read. So that was- It's easier. I was a romantic literature, it was my focus undergrad. But both years, for both semesters

of the focus, it was at 9 in the morning. And it was tough going, dude. So you mean like reading like Byron and stuff? I can't read poetry. It makes no sense. And I was cramming it. I think I might still have an incomplete. I'm pretty sure I probably do.

I'm pretty sure I probably do. I'm pretty sure I probably do. It was, I think it was a paper on Blake. Oh yeah. Well, yeah. Well that stuff actually, I can read that sort of,

some of that makes sense. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's very simple language, but then there are the drawings and then there's, you know, you know,

just some books upon books of analysis. And I'm like, what are they seeing? I know. Why are you, well, that's a whole other thing is the critical shit. I couldn't read.

No. So it was good. Cause I was reading like Edgar Allan Poe. I'm reading like horror stories. So that was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you get done with that and you decide like I don't want to teach? Well, because I think the thing that I did, I don't know that I learned much about it, but I did a lot of extracurricular theater as a graduate.

Yeah. That's really what I ended up doing. So like the non-theater school theater company. Yeah. So that's what, so yeah. Like what plays you do? Whatever. You would do.

I did Indian Wants a Bronc. That kind of thing a lot. Like people did Hurley Burley and stuff like that a lot. I didn't do that. Zoo Story. We did Zoo Story. We did Glengarry Glen Ross. Oh, that's bold.

Yeah, that was bold because I think they didn't have the rights to it. Oh, right. When we did it. Nothing like a bunch of 19-year-olds doing Glengarry. Totally. Sitting around in trench coats trying to be like old Jews from Chicago. No, totally. Powdered the white powder in your hair, the whole thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fantastic, though. Fantastic. I mean, so great that we had the fucking balls to do it everyone's parents loved it absolutely and who knows maybe it was good yeah maybe it was good people maybe just maybe it was good yeah but stuff like that yeah and so yeah whatever just you took to it you're like oh yeah well yeah i really enjoyed doing that yeah i think probably if I, I don't know if I learned anything, but that's what I did. Yeah.

You know, mostly. Without any acting training at all. No. You were just doing it. Yeah. When you got into Yale Drama School, you did the audition, right? I did do the audition, yeah. Do you remember what pieces you did?

I did, the Shakespeare thing I did was Richard II. He's the hunchback? No, that's Richard III. Oh, sorry. I should have just done a hunchback for him anyway. I saw William Hurt do that on Broadway, and the effort he put into the hunchback, it was so distracting.

Right. But I get a little distracted by it. I'll tell you, I was in Sweden once. I was in Stockholm. Yeah. I like the way you were like, saw, I was in Sweden once. Yeah. I was in Stockholm. Yeah. I like the way you were like, yeah, we're in Sweden. Where is this going? I know.

You were just like, uh-huh. I saw, and I walked by a theater, and they were doing Richard III. It was in Swedish, and I went in and watched, and it was great. Yeah. Because it was all in Swedish, but the guy who played Richard III did nothing. He didn't do any of that stuff. Yeah. He didn't have a hand.

He didn't have a limp. He didn't have a limp. He didn't have a hunchback. He did nothing. He just was weird. Yeah. And I was like, that was the best I've ever seen him done. It took the easy path. Well, no.

I actually think it was the harder path. The easier thing is to be all like, you know. You've got to stay in that. That's true. You do. You do. But it's kind of the easier thing. Because as long as you have some weird thing you're doing, everybody's going to pay attention.

He played Richard with a tick. It was just like a minor tick. He did. Towards the end, he started having a weird tick. But it was actually very effective. Yeah. Are you good with Shakespeare? Yeah, I mean, I got all the training in it and stuff.

I've not, I've hardly ever done any. Yeah. I did. I played Hamlet. You did Hamlet. I did Hamlet like 10 years ago. I was too old to do it. Yeah.

But that's always a good choice to, you know, to be too old to do Hamlet. I just got to get this out of the way. Totally. Somebody, the guy had asked me to do it when I was younger and I didn't do it. I should have. Yeah. I did. It was too old, but it was fine, but I hadn't done it. I should have, but I didn't. I did it when I was too old.

But it was fun. But I hadn't done any Shakespeare. I don't know if I'm any good at it. Was it a revelation? Did you connect with it? Yes, I suppose I did. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

I didn't know the play actually that well, and I'd never seen it before. I'm not good with Shakespeare. Neither am I. I can't understand it. Yeah. I can't understand it. If poetry's tricky, that's going to. Exactly. No, I get lost at the language, and I've talked about it a lot, and I've had Ian McKellen.

Yeah. Sir Ian McKellen, sit where you're sitting and do it to my face. And you can't understand it. No, I got it then. Oh, you did. Well, he picked a good part. He made it clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it was just a. Simple thing. It was an interesting. It had a point, but it didn't make me. I still don't, even when those amazing people do it. It's great to hear their voices. They have beautiful voices. You pay attention, but I still can't follow it.

All right, so you go to Yale. Now, like, that's hard, right? Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's like it's nonstop, and it's intense, and there's a lot of physical training stuff that's hard. Yeah, it's nonstop, but it's good. You're acting all the time, and that's a lot of physical training stuff that's hard yeah you know yeah it's non-stop but it was but it's good you're you're acting all the time and that's great you know but you learn things yeah i mean i think you do just by repetition yeah sort of like you just get a lot

of experience yeah yeah yeah was there anybody in your group your crew that we know there was a guy named lance reddick who was in my class who was um on the wire oh yeah he was a guy named Lance Reddick who was in my class who was on The Wire. Oh, yeah. He was a terrific actor. Yeah. He passed away at the beginning of the year. Oh. But he was great. Yeah.

And I think he's the guy who did a lot. Yeah. In a lot of things. Now, do you cite Yale as the place that, I mean, do you go back? Do they have you come back and do? No. No. They'll go back and hold a seminar, a master class and stuff like that.

Something like they give you an award or anything? They gave me a degree this year. The university did. Yeah. Oh, they did? They did. They gave me an honorary degree. I have no idea why.

It was very nice of them. Did you go dressed up in the- I had to wear the robe. In the gown? The whole thing, yeah. The hat, the floppy hat. Did you do a little speech? Floppy, velvety hat. I didn't have to do a speech, thank floppy hat did you do a little speech velvety hat i didn't

have to do a speech thank god you didn't do a presentation no i'm terrified of having to give like public speaking really worst no shit i hate it what happens freeze up i freeze up i really do i freeze up and i start saying shit that makes no sense and i'll probably start swearing. That's good. I would expect you to yell. No, I don't know. I think I get very quiet. I get very quiet. I get really cowed. I'm not good.

I can't speak off the cuff publicly. Oh. No. I mean, I guess I'd have to prepare a speech, but then that's not going to work either. I don't like speaking in public speaking. So you just don't do it. No.

I'm the guy, I don't want to give a toast at a wedding. I can't stand it. So like if you're in a group situation and you kind of feel it coming? That's fucking terrifying. It's the worst. You're just waiting for Paul. Oh God, no, please don't. And those kinds of things when it's like, it used to be

you know, you're at a play, it's like a magic show and somebody's going to ask you up on stage nothing would be a bigger fucking yeah yeah yeah then it'd be asked up on stage oh it's the worst because the worst well that's funny because i get that too and like and because i'm a con i remember like i went back yeah but you must be i mean you know i don't like i like i do a very specific thing yeah i've grown over the years to know that you know i'm not you know i'm not the guy it's like hey we're having a few uh you know we're doing a we're honoring this person you think you could do like no no i can't it's all very no you do a very selfish thing yes no you're right and it's like i don't know how to do that don't ask me to come and give a heartfelt speech about somebody i don't

know you have jeff ross do it but then i also feel like it's private i don't want if it's somebody i know it's also like i don't want to get up there and it's private. But what is it that, but that, I mean, because it seems like you feel the same thing I do. It's like for some reason, no matter how many years I've done what I do and I've got different, I have a spectrum of ways I can do it. I can be aggressive. I can, you know, take control and everything. But that sort of thing where it's not the context for what I do. No. And I'm asked to do it. Like, I literally, my entire sense of self collapses.

Collapses. Collapses. And I don't know. And then I run, I like Rolodex through who am I supposed to be? Who do I be? How do I do this? Like, what do I do? What's the right behavior?

Because I know Mimi just wants to cry. Totally. Or start yelling. Just fucking yell at people and talk about no that's really weird though i just thought i realized something recently that was really really chilling and part of it was my sister once said to me yeah she saw me on a talk show doing something she was like you know she was a very intense person very smart and she was like you are full of shit on that thing i saw you and everything

coming out of your mouth is just a lie. And she seemed so, and I thought, oh, I thought I was doing really well on that, wasn't I? And it's like, no. And I watch myself sometimes on a talk show and I go, I don't believe that guy at all. And then I'll see myself in a movie and I'll go, oh, I believe that. That's weird. That's not right. I shouldn't believe myself playing a character more than I believe myself just being me. That's weird. Yeah, but you're not just being you. It's heightened. Yeah.

And there's an expectation. Yeah. And you've talked to a segment producer. Yeah. And they've convinced you that the story that you have is going to land huge. Yeah. And you're just like, it's so unnatural. Yeah.

So it's not you. It's really not you. You're right. You're just like, it's so unnatural. Yeah. So it's not you. It's really not you. You're right. You're right. Like if you go out there as you. But I should be more convincing as me, shouldn't I? That as a character. No, because, but you are convincing as you.

We're having a nice conversation. Now, if we were. This feels less like that though. Well, there's not 500 people sitting here. Exactly. And a guy. And I don't know what we're going to say. Yeah.

And that's actually part of it too. I don't know what we're going to talk about. Of course. Well, you can't just go do that on television. But people, there are people who are really good at that though. A few. There are people that can do panel well, but it's just because they know how to tell the joke or land the story. But no one's going up there like the old, if you watch fucking old Dick Cavett shows,

the amount of dead air. Oh my God. It's ridiculous. Actually, you watch that and it's kind of shocking how not great it is. Oh, it's the worst. Dick Cavett shows? The amount of dead air. Oh, my God. It's ridiculous. Actually, you watch that, and it's kind of shocking how not great it is. Oh, it's the worst. Dick Cavett's just terrible. Dick Cavett's really, I mean, God bless him. It's amazing what he does, but it's really awkward and weird a lot of the time. Oh, it takes forever. Like, even some of the old Carsons, when it was an hour and a half, just like this dead air and jokes not landing.

And just spinning your wheels for a while. That's what it looks like. Yeah. So like they've kind of refined it. You're right. And they have expectations. There was a time, Paul, where you could go on stage and just be like, I don't really know what's going on. I really got a bomb.

And you're right, though. And it was enough. That's really interesting, though. You're right. And they've refined it to such a degree that people can't sort of like spin their wheels and bomb anymore. Well, I can. I've done it a lot. I have a whole reel of panel appearances.

But this is before they've refined it. No, no. It was just that there was a period there where I lived in New York, and if Conan got stuck for a guest, I'd usually have enough things in the hopper. To just call you up and go on. Yeah, because I was a panel guest, and I used to do sit-down comedy. But I'd go out there with shit that wasn't quite prepared, and then it became this dynamic

that I didn't plan. Right. Like, I would go on to Conan, and I would say something, and it would tank, and then I would get mad at the audience, and Conan would be like, this is Mark. And I'm like, it's not Mark. I didn't want that to be me. And it became a thing. Yes, right. Then it becomes a thing. that to be me. And it became a thing. Yes, right.

Then it becomes a thing. Flailing. Right. Then it becomes a thing. But now I feel better about it because just recently I've been able to let that go because I watch Rickles on Carson. I watch Rickles on Carson a lot. But, dude, like 90% of it, he's just like he's drowning the second he gets out there. But that becomes funny.

That's right. And half of it doesn't even make sense. He's fascinating because a lot of it doesn't even make sense fascinating because a lot of it doesn't make sense some of the funniest he says some of the funniest shit he says makes absolutely no here he goes with the hat and ear and you're like what you're like what does that mean but it's really funny so okay but so like when you get out of yale do you feel ready to go you understand show business when i get out of yale drama you feel ready to go? You understand show business? When I get out of Yale drama school? Yeah.

But, you know, I took about two and a half years between undergraduate and graduate school where I lived in Seattle. What? And I managed, after a little bit of time, to make a very small living as an actor. In Seattle? In Seattle. At that time, Seattle make a very small living as an actor. In Seattle. In Seattle. At that time, Seattle was the number one city in America. They were making all these movies and TV shows. I didn't work at any of the regional theaters.

I worked at these little, there were a million little black box experimental things. So were you doing new playwright stuff? Yes. A lot of shit like that and stuff like that. And then doing industrial films for Boeing. Oh, yeah. And stuff like that.

And then getting a day on a TV movie, a Linda Evans TV movie kind of thing. And having a day of that. And so managing to actually. So I actually, I kind of had experience of actually being in the world trying to find acting. had experience of actually being in the world trying to find acting. But that's funny because, you know, by doing that, you were able to hide the thing that most actors do in New York in front of everybody. What do you mean?

The black box theater thing. Yes, totally. You didn't have to start a theater troupe or get naked on Avenue A. A lot of nudity. A lot of nudity. But you were doing that in secret. I did that in New York, too, though, actually. Oh, you did?

No, perfectly happy with that, though. Very proud of being nude on things. Yeah, absolutely. In New York? Nude in New York., though, actually. Oh, you did? No, perfectly happy with that, though. Very proud of being nude on things. Yeah, absolutely. In New York? Nude in New York. Was that the name of the show? It should have been. I can't remember the name of the thing.

I did it at La Mama. I was at La Mama where you got to get a lot of nudity. It's required that you get naked at some point. So, yeah. So I had done. Three years in Seattle. You're right. I'd done about three years, yeah.

That's where you probably built a certain amount of confidence, anyways. You're right. I'd done about three years. Yeah. That's where you really, that's where you probably built a certain amount of confidence. Anyways, I think so. Applying the, I think so. So that when I went to drama school, I was kind of the only person that had actually been out in the world trying to do stuff. Oh,

see, that's why, you know, when you got there, then I decided I really need to hone my chops. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So my clothes on and oh, my job. Yeah, exactly. So I need to go back to school. And then I decided I really need to hone my chops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Put my clothes on and hone my chops. Yes, exactly. So I need to go back to school. And then how soon do you start working after? I started working pretty soon afterwards, doing regional theater stuff. Oh. Yeah, yeah.

Going out to San Diego. Yeah. Yeah, doing stage stuff, which is what I thought I was going to do. But I started working pretty consistently. Regional theater. Regional theater. How was that, looking at that audience? Kind of great.

Was it? You can hear the hiss of the oxygen tanks. Just the ssss. You can hear the lady old, you know. Oh, my God. Yeah. The challenge of theater, dude. I've talked to Annie Baker and what's that guy, Stephen Karam, is that his name?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just like the nature of theater. Yeah. Even when you're doing bold new stuff, it's still like, here they come. In those situations, it's tough. But, you know, they get loyal audiences in those places, so it's nice. They show up. Did you ever do any kind of theater like that?

Not really. I did some plays in college, but I never. The pursuing the acting thing, it was just too much for me. And I always wanted to be a comic. And I think for years I didn't even have you know representation as an actor you know like I think I got a pretty powerful manager that tried his best and he would get favors occasionally from agents just you know send Mark out on something and see if it sticks I do one edition and then they'd abandon me. It didn't really come around until recently. I'm trying to get the hang of it.

I do alright. But I still don't feel like I was so in it. Yeah. You do. I do, yeah. But I don't do the method-y thing. But I can feel like I'm in it. Yeah. Definitely. And accents can make me feel like I'm more in it. Yeah.

I re-watched, I watched the new movie. I watched more in it. Yeah. Cause I rewatched, uh, you know, I don't, I watched the new movie. I watched the holdovers. I watched sideways at least twice a year. Really? Yeah. I can't, I just can't.

God, you like it. Good. I can't, I can't, I have to watch it. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. But you know, it's interesting with the holdovers. I actually was started out before I didn't ever do it on film, but I was like, maybe this guy should have some kind of old school, new Englandy thing. And I did that for a while when we were rehearsing.

And I was like, nah, I don't need to do this, but I'm glad I did it. Cause I actually think it helped. And the way I played the guy. It actually helped. And I imagine that your childhood probably helped as well.

Yes. Uh, yeah. Sure. All these terms. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, in terms of like, uh,. Yes. For sure. All these people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In terms of like knowing that world. Yes.

All those people. And the sort of weird kind of self-importance. Yes. That crumbles throughout the movie. Totally. That kind of self-importance. But I think that kind of self-importance in general is really funny. Yeah.

I find that kind of thing very funny. Especially when it's so fragile. Yes. And it is. It's so fragile. Yes, and it is. It's super fragile with guys like that. You know, and it's like, because it's all based just on this kind of like high intellect. And then that intellect only alienates you more

and doesn't hold up really outside of that narrow world that you're in. And he gave you, and that was the confines of that character in the movie. Yes. It wasn't a choice. No, that's what the guy's going through. He lived there.

Yeah, that's the whole thing. Yeah. Well, he's come to rest at this place. It's the only place he feels safe. He's marginal. Yeah. He's one of these marginal people. Yeah, but-

But then it doesn't support him anywhere else but that place. Yeah, when he gets out in the world- Or with anybody, if he's forced, if he's then forced to have to sit with two other people alone for two weeks. Then it falls apart. Because it doesn't really. Yeah. It doesn't work. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's like. But these characters. Some of the characters you do. You know. I don't know all of them. But there is that element. I don't think in John Adams.

But there. Well no. What? What element? Well that. That. the real comedy heart of it is the sort of abrasiveness of the confidence that is so... Misguided, and it just doesn't land right.

When it crumbles, it's like the best. Yes, I agree. I actually, I mean, I think it's true of John Adams. It's not necessarily funny, but it's the the best yes i agree i actually i mean i think it's true of john adams it's not necessarily not necessarily funny but it's the same thing yeah i mean it's a guy which is so convinced of his own rightness and his own intellect and his own ability to carry out shit yeah and nobody cares nobody wants to listen to him nobody cares and it's like you know he's a pain in the ass yeah he's so convinced he's just a it's a little different with him i guess but it's like but it's the same thing it's yeah i don't know why i end up having

to do that all the time but i do a lot of times well but i like i imagine no one ever has to give you this direction hey paul could you come in hot you know though i do i would say though, it's true. It's true. But I would say that more than you might think, I have people be kind of like, yeah, just really get more weight. And I'm like, okay, okay, I'll do it. But more than you would think. Yeah? More than you would think. Can you bring it up a little? Yes.

As I'm getting older, I definitely am like, I just want to be quieter. I just want to sit and be quieter because I'm old. I'm getting old. I know. It's weird to feel that, isn't it? Yes. I'm getting old. But this movie, you've worked with Alexander Payne before.

Yeah. You know, it's one of those kind of hard to define genres where, you know, essentially it's mostly comedy. Yeah. But it doesn't play out in a standard comedic structure. No, yeah. It's not jokey. But also, the ending is not, there's no kind of reunion.

It's a dramatic ending. Yes, I know, but there's no great transformations or anything like that. There's no lessons learned. There's no big lessons learned, clearly learned in any way. Well, you get humbled.

There's a little movement forward. Yes, yes, yes yes i mean the transformation happens change is he really gonna change much that guy will he go off because people have said to me about this movie yeah you know at the end i i take a sip of cognac and spit it out the window they're like so he's not gonna drink anymore i'm like no he's gonna keep drinking i'm like you know that was that was a fuck you to the D. Yes, exactly. So it's like, lessons are learned, but will they stick?

I don't know. Well, I think the lesson is, like, it's interesting about transformation, like, as being a objective of dramatic narrative. Yes. Because, like, you know, is it enough that you took the action you did at the end of that movie? Yes. To say that that character transformed? I'd say yes.

Would you? It could be, yeah. And I don't want to give away the ending. No, no, but I think it's definitely a change. You give up your entire comfort of existence. Yeah, he gives up everything. He does give up everything. But how much did he want to get out of there anyway?

Was he tired of it anyway? And this is a way out. Yeah, but he was a dreamer, and he lived in this fantasy of what he would do, which is write a book. Yeah, never going to do. Well, yeah, you don't think he's driving away and he's going to make it to Greece. No, but I think there's people who do, though, want that to be the case. Right, but the second half of that story is what we assume happens.

Well, we don't want to think about what happens to those guys in the coffee shops. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's right. That's right. So I don't. So what you're saying is true, but I do think some people want to play it out as a bigger transformation than it might be.

I don't know. All I'm saying is I don't know. I don't know. then it might be i don't know all i'm saying is i don't know i don't know now i'm gonna discuss a an issue i had with that movie because i'm not going to talk to to pain about it but and it's like it's it's minor because i enjoyed the movie yeah okay but but just like in in your understanding the script when all the other kids get on the helicopter where the fuck are they going they're going skiing somewhere aren't they they're of them? Even the two little ones? The Korean kids going skiing?

I think they're just all going to go. That was clear. Yeah, okay. What I'm saying is like, we had to get rid of the four kids. Yes, they did. And Alexander gets asked this question, and I see him, and he goes, and he says,

what is the phrase? It's like the Greek, deus ex machina, right? Oh, sure. Like God out of the machine, God from the machine. He's like, it's a little bit deus ex machina. Wow. It's a little bit like something has to happen to get them out of it. Yeah, that's why I code for a script problem.

Okay, okay, okay. I mean, listen, it's traditional. Oh, I love it. Deus ex machina. It's like, listen, it's traditional. Oh, I love it. David says Machina. It's like, look, let's just do it. The story's strong enough. It's not going to— It can sustain it.

It can hold it. People will go with it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. David says Machina. David says Machina. In other words, we don't have another solution for this.

Get them out of here. They just need— I would like to think the two young kids are going to sit in the ski lodge. Sure. And they were able to track down the missionaries to get permission. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Within a couple hours, they were able to find the, the, the Mormon parents. Now you're thinking about it way more than I think anybody did. No, Deus es machina. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm not, it's not, it wasn't a problem for me in this story. It didn't mar your experience.

No, but I was sort of like, where'd those kids go? I think, I don't know that you're alone in that field. Oh, really? Interesting. I think some people are like a little too convenient. I didn't think it was too convenient, but that's me. I'm on board. I'm on board with the job.

But the weird thing is, is thing is it's only because of the convincing reality of the movie that things like that happen in movies all the time yes

you know what I mean it's like all of a sudden like I watched Cinderella Man last night I think I mentioned that I watched it again yeah

you know because I was like maybe I should bone up just brush up bone up on well it's a weird thing and I've started to do it more. Like, I've seen many of your movies, but, like, I don't always remember the movies, right? And that was a big one.

I was nominated for an Oscar. And I watched it, and I was only going to just kind of get a feel, but then I'm in, you know. I've got to do the whole thing. That's pretty, like, yeah. Right? That one's all, like, yeah. That one's very. I'm in, you know, I got to do the whole thing. That's pretty like, yeah.

Right? That one's all like, yeah, that one's very. And, but, but again, you know, as a, do you, do you have a problem with the character actor title? No. Right. I don't really necessarily know what it means, but it's like, no, I don't. I mean, I think I, I think I knew what it used to mean. I don't really know what it means now.

No? I don't know. Like what it used to mean was sort of like william demarest is going to show up and be the cranky bus driver or something still means bill demarest it does it though who do we got for this bill demarest is going to show up and be the cranky janitor yeah oh so i i guess i guess it is what it still means is that what it still means we want to let's see if we get Giamatti. He's going to show up and be the feisty trainer. Then we'll get Giamatti.

He'll be the feisty teacher. It'll be the crusty but lovable. What is crusty but lovable? That's network. We're not talking about the crusty but lovable. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, that's still what it means. No, I have really no problem with it then if that's what it still means.

Because it's like, yeah, he'll be the crusty but lovable hotel manager or something. Yeah. If that's what it means, I really have no problem with it because I love those guys. Yeah. I love that stuff. But it's a great character because, you know, you're able to do whatever. Oh, Cinderella man? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that scene where she shows up at his apartment, it's great. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. And there's some motion to it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because that scene where she shows up at his apartment, it's great. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's fun. And there's some motion to it. Yes. Yeah. It's a little. Now, when you're working with someone like Russell Crowe, what is that experience for you?

Are you coming at it from a different place generally or do you not think about that? No. No. No. With him, it wasn't different. No. Because he's pretty straightforward and now he does it. It wasn't anything.

It didn't feel different in any way, no. Have you had experiences on set where you're like, all right, he's going to do this work and I'll just wait over here? Yeah. I did a movie with Jim Carrey where he did this full-on, like I'm immersed all the time thing. Oh, the Andy Kaufman movie? Yeah, on the moon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm immersed all the time thing. Oh, the Andy Kaufman movie? Man on the Moon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's immersed all the time in whatever it is. Yes, that's true. That's true. But he really did the whole nine yards, like the Daniel Day-Lewis thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who I hear that when you do it with him, it's like you don't really notice it in a way.

Yeah, yeah. He's so in it that you kind of just. He's so good that you believe you're hanging out with Abe Lincoln. Exactly. Well, that's like, you don't really notice it in a way. Yeah, yeah. He's so in it. He's so good that you believe you're hanging out with Abe Lincoln. Exactly. Well, that's what people I know

did that set. They walk in the room and it's like, oh my God, it's Abe Lincoln. Yeah. Let's go talk to Abe Lincoln. Yeah,

but that people said that's what it was like. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. How'd you not get in that movie? I don't know. I was a little irked that I wasn't in that.

I wasn't the crusty but lovable secretary of commerce. Or congressman. Congressman. Definitely was a role in there for you. Congressman from wherever, North Carolina or whatever. Crusty but lovable. But, you know, a nice turn at the end. You know, something comes around at the end and votes.

Unbelievable. Yeah, I know. No, I was a little bit like, I can't be in that. But I won the... Every actor in Hollywood is in wonder every actor in hollywood is in that movie hollywood's in that but also it was a little bit like uh maybe it would be confusing if i did that because i'd been i'd been john adams already exactly that might have been confusing yeah do you but do you do you feel like you're typecasted sometimes yeah sometimes i think the bigger roles that i do are kind of similar. Yeah. Yeah. Is it okay? Yeah.

Because they're good roles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? It's like I have good stuff to do in them. Yeah. So you still like having that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The smaller roles got more interesting as time went on.

Yeah. I got more kind of varied, felt a little bit more varied in the smaller things. And it's not meant as an insult. It's just meant I haven't seen billions. Now, it must be odd that at this point in your career, there are some people that only know you from billions. Yeah, well, that's always weird, though. Whatever the hell is the thing, then it becomes the thing people know you for for a while. And it's been on for a while.

It was on forever. It was on for seven, eight years. It's done. But, like, I was in radio for years, and your big break was a guy that was very familiar to me. That actual guy? Well, just the radio. Yes. That guy exists in radio.

That's right. Air America. Yes, that's right. You did all of that. Yeah, for a couple years. What's his name? Sam Cedar? Yeah, Cedar.

Cedar, sure, yeah. Is it still? He does a thing. Sam and I did a streaming video show when no one was able to stream yet. Interesting. And we go way back, Seder and I. Yes, yeah. No, he's still.

I did a thing with him years ago. I did a pilot. I did a sitcom briefly with Sam Seder. Yeah. Many years ago. He was funny. Really funny. He really was.

Really nice guy. He's very funny in a very specific way, but he's also very opinionated, argumentative, and relentless. He does a thing called Majority Report, and it's still, that's his bread and butter. He's a progressive podcast guy. Nice, very good. Yeah. But do you think that private parts, it puts you on the map, but on some level you've been in that zone forever? Well, yeah. I mean, definitely. And it was really fun. And it definitely was something.

I had more to do than I'd ever had to do before. But, you know, I kind of, there's some funny way in which, somebody asked me once, you know, when you were recently, when you were a kid and you did plays in school and grade school. Yeah. And they said, what was the thing that you did in grade school and you loved? And I was like, when I was in the fourth grade, we did the Pied Piper of Hamelin. You know what I mean?

Like it was a little kid's thing with the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Somebody said, who would you play? And I said, the corrupt mayor who rips the Pied Piper off who says, I'm going to pay you to get all the rats out of town. And then it's like, fuck you. I'm not going to pay you to get all the rats out of town. And then it's like, fuck you, I'm not going to pay you once all the rats are out of town. I'm like,

I've kind of been doing the same thing ever since. I was in the fourth grade. I'm kind of playing the petty bureaucrat. No matter what it is, it's like kind of the petty bureaucrat

to the guy that I play a little bit. You know what I mean? The kind of, the small man who wants the power, but he can't really handle the power or something.

But that's not like really who you are. I don't think so. Yeah. I don't think so. But it must be fun. But that's an interesting question. That's the whole question of how much is it you? How much is it like not you?

How long do you spend with that question daily? Well, it's an interesting question. It's not every day. It's not every day. It's not a daily thing, but it definitely comes up. But that's an interesting question because you do sort of sometimes go, what is it about me that seems to translate into something, these kind of weird guys like this, complicated guys? I don't know.

Is there a role that you're dying to do? I think, I don't know if there's anything I'm dying to do. Somebody asked me this earlier, and I said I would like to do? I think, I don't know if there's anything I'm dying to do. I do, somebody asked me this and I said, I would like to do the guy who, you know what I, I'd like to do the guy

who doesn't talk very much. I'd like to do the kind of like, the silent guy. That would be so hard for your fans. Like, what's wrong with Paul? Why is he not talking?

Why is he not yelling? Why is he not yelling? He's not yelling, he's not talking. Because I have to play really hyper articulate people. And it's like, I'd like to play the kind of guy who just, for whatever reason, doesn't talk as much.

Interesting. I did do one movie where I didn't have to talk as much. What movie was that? I can't remember the title. It's a thing I did. Talk about the accent going in and out. Yeah. I did a Canadian accent.

It was with Paul Rudd, and I can't remember the title. Oh, that's all right. It happens. You've done a hundred movies. But this is the memory thing I was talking about. But you've done a hundred movies. You know, there's some guys

like, you know, I've learned it like with certain actors like they do movies that the only thing that gets them to do the movie it's like, all right, so it's two weeks

and it's here? Okay. Two weeks and it's here or it's like it's two weeks and it's Australia or something like that. That's a big thing. As long as it's here or it's like it's two weeks and it's Australia or something like that. That's a big thing. As long as it's not a month

or two months. Well, yeah, I don't know. I don't know about that. As long as I'm not having to carry the thing. Yeah, yeah. I enjoy going to... Oh, yeah?

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, travel was a big part of it. So your father, before he tragically died very young, was a baseball commissioner

and it seems like that was a big part of your life, baseball. I was not a big fan. No, because I was going to wonder if you ever did a baseball movie. I have done a baseball movie. Which one? I did a weird baseball movie. It's called The Phenom. It's a weird little, it's a good little movie yeah actually

yeah and it's about a pitcher who gets the um you know he gets the do you play a scout or a manager hold on hold on it's about a guy hold on steady this might come as a surprise to you i i it's about a guy a pitcher who gets the yips uh you know You know, he can't get it over the plate. And so I play as a sports psychologist. Wow. I don't know, big switch. And so I play a sports psychologist, and Ethan Hawke is in it and plays the kid's father. It's actually a really interesting movie.

He's great in it. He's an interesting actor, Ethan Hawke. Yeah, he's great. Because he can really do it, and he's very intellectual about it. Yeah, he is, actually. And he's very focused. I talked really do it, and he's very intellectual about it. Yeah, he is, actually. And he's very focused. I talked to him once, and it was like, I never forgot it,

where he got cast in Training Day with Denzel. So what he did was, you know, not unlike, you know, a football team watching the other team's, you know, games. Getting or stealing their signal? Oh, right, okay. Yeah, studying their games. He did that with Denzel. He did that.

With all his movies so he didn't get fucking eaten. So he wasn't like getting in there and just being like, holy shit. Or just being like plowed under.

But he wouldn't have anyway, I don't think. No, I don't think so, but I like the prep. Yeah, that is interesting. Like that is just sort of like, all right, this is how he's going

to come at me. I just saw the Equalizer 3 on a plane. God, they're satisfying, aren't they? So satisfying. Holy shit, that movie was great. The new one? Great, yeah. Oh, God. Okay, I'm they? So satisfying. Holy shit, that movie was great.

The new one? Great, yeah. Oh, God. Okay, I'm going to watch it. It was really good. It falls apart a little bit at the end, but it was really good. Really?

Did the kids weave on a helicopter? Ha, ha, ha, ha! Ha, ha! Oh, boy. No, but not far from that. Not far from that. Yeah, along those lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Along those lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's that. Not far from that. Yeah, along those lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's good. It's good. It's satisfying. I don't watch a lot of that stuff. I like action movies. You do? Yeah. Do you watch the John Wicks?

Yeah, I like those. I haven't seen the latest one. I haven't seen any of them. That guy I mentioned before, Lance Reddick, my friend who died, he was in all of those. Oh, really? Yeah. I'd have to look at a picture of him. I'm sure I know who he is.

Yeah, you're right. He's a good song. You're right. All right, so what's happening now? You got a big day? No, actually. I have a very light day after this. Oh, you do?

This has been heavy. This has been heavy. What are you kidding? I've just laughed for an hour and a half. I do a podcast. No, you don't. Yes, I do. Okay.

I do. Do you really not believe me? Do you really think I come in here? What are you kidding? I did not steal your format, though. I know everybody does it. Don't do that. Don't they?

Everyone has something. Yeah. I mean, but I don't own the format. It was just very, but you know. But you are kind of, you're like the first person to do this. The thoughtful, candid, you know, full, you know, engaged conversation thing. Yes, I suppose so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You kind of are, though conversation thing? Yes, I suppose so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You kind of are, though, right? Yeah, I'll take that. Okay. So what are you doing with yours? Mine's all about esoteric weird shit. Oh, like what variety? UFOs and stuff like that. Oh.

Yep, ghosts, things like that. Yeah, I do a thing called Chinwag with a guy who's a philosopher. What? He's a philosophy professor. Wait, so you- At an art college in Chicago. Okay, but what's the angle? He's skeptical, I'm less skeptical.

Of ghosts? All kinds of things. All kinds of things. We talked to a Roman historian, we talked to a historian in Egypt, we talked to a guy who's a psychedelics researcher, we talked to a dream and sleep. It's just whatever weird topic.

This is all part of the quest to be the guy in the coffee shop, Paul. It is. No. It is. It full on is. It's not a joke. It really is.

It really is. It's fully embracing. It's like you only have the courage. But it's, no fucking joke. I say with all fucking seriousness and candor, I got tired of not talking about shit like this. Sasquatch and shit like this. And like precognitive dreams and stuff. I really did.

Because I'm interested. And so I was like, I'm 56. Who knows how much longer I'm going to live. So I want to talk about this stuff. And I have a buddy who likes to talk about it too. No, I get it. But like, you know, I've gone through about this stuff. And I have a buddy who likes to talk about it, too. No, I get it. But, like, you know, I've gone through, you know, periods of that. Being interested in stuff like that.

Well, what happened to me, how I learned my lesson around managing my fucking mind. Yeah. Is that, you know, when I was younger, you know, I had, like, I did a lot of cocaine. Uh-huh. And I was out here I did a lot of cocaine. And I was out here at the comedy store. And it was right after college. I wanted to be a comic. And I got caught up with Kandison and that world.

And a lot of cocaine and no sleep. So I got cocaine psychosis. And I was pretty sure that there was a very dark, mystical conspiracy. So the next stop is like, sure. So everything was connected. The JFK assassination and stuff like that. That was part of that a little earlier. sure that there was like a very dark mystical so the next conspiracy like sure yeah so like no everything was connected well that nation and stuff like that was part of that a little earlier yeah that that's now become q anon so you know where that goes yes right and i talked to a you should listen to my episode with this guy robert guffey who wrote a book called operation mind fuck have him on your i will that sounds great okay that's exactly the kind of thing sure yeah

well what not stealing your shit though though. No, you're not. You're not. No, but, like, I have to manage that because if you have a propensity to the mystical. Yes. You know, you've got. Are you a believer in it? Like, well, who knows? At that point, if you're doing a shit ton of cocaine and not sleeping, you might just be.

But any conspiracy is satisfying because you're backloading a pattern. Right. So, you know. It's a narrative. it's a satisfying. I remember like I wrote a book and there's a scene where my my buddy Jim worked in politics forever, like in Washington for presidency. Like he was, you know, he's an advanced guy, but he's been he's a guy, a Washington guy. And I remember he takes me on this tour. This is I think it might have before cocaine psychosis, but I was always heading there. And I'm like,

we're walking around Washington, and I'm like, you know what this is about. It's the Freemasons. Absolutely, the whole thing. The city's laid out in a pattern. Exactly. So I go off on this whole rift, and Jim looks at me and goes, Mark, people here just aren't that organized. That's true. I know it's true.

That's absolutely true. That's absolutely right. And yet the Masons are the Masons. Right. You can become a Mason. Yes. Anybody, we could become Masons. Of course.

Yes. But you can't get the big, you know. You can't get up to the top. Sure, you know, and there's the whole sort of, you know,

George Washington was wearing a Masonic apron at his inauguration. But you can see paintings of him wearing a Masonic apron. Sure, but so fucking what? It's true. But all that shit is actually very boring.

It's not anywhere near as interesting as you think it's going to be. There's a, you should go, have you been up to San Francisco to the Freemason Hall? No, is there a great one in San Francisco? It's a huge one, and I've done comedy there. It's a beautiful place, but they have a fairly expansive Freemason museum. Like history. I've been on the one in London, which is like the central one in London,

where they have a painting of George Washington and Franklin. The Hellfire Club? Oh, no. That's a whole other thing, though. That's not connected with the Freemasons. No? That's just like a sex club, isn't it?

I don't know. I think it's all kind of connected. Illuminate's true, actually. I've got a bunch of books. You want some new books? I've got some literature. I'm ready to let go of the books. But you're absolutely right when you say that basically it's on track to be the fucking the marginal

the marginal weirdo at the university oh yeah or it's just yeah it's interesting it's exploring that you just don't have the guts paul i don't i don't i don't i have to i have to hide behind a microphone and like just lock in yeah lose yourself i don't have the have to hide behind a microphone and do it. Just lock in and lose yourself. I don't have the guts. So the world would go like, holy shit, why is that guy at the protest? But I think, oh my God, you mean to go full on that. That would be amazing, wouldn't it? It happens, I'm sure.

I've known fairly sane people. Who have gone full on that way. Like QAnon? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Actually, you're right. I actually know a guy.

Brain's kind of soft, dude. I knew a guy who went that way. It's interesting because he was an old school psycho, not hippie guy. Of course. From the 60s and 70s. And where that dovetails with the same thing, with the crazy right wing thing,

it's fascinating. Yeah, but it was all- That weird old hippie thing. Yeah, but it was all a joke. The Illuminati was a joke. Yes. It was a prank. It's true. It was all a prank all- That weird old hippie thing. Yeah, but it was all a joke. The Illuminati was a joke. Yes. It was a prank. Yes, it's true.

It was all a prank. It's all that true Bob shit. It's all that- It was before that. It was meant as a reaction to the John Birch Society. Right. And it's nice. Robert Anton Wilson and all that stuff.

Yeah, he was a joker. It's a joke. Was it really, though? No, it's okay. I'm not going to do this with you. Have me- Will you be on my show? Maybe.

Really? Yeah. Where do you tape it? You could be here. I just do it from my home. Oh, you do it from Zoom? Yeah, I do it from Zoom. To tell you how I managed to keep this shit out?

Yes. Oh, yeah. That would be really interesting, actually. You kind of have to. You've got to make a decision. You do. There's so much coming at you, and because of algorithms, it's, you know. Now it's even easier.

Well, radicalizing people one way or the other is like it happens in days. Hours, matter of hours, it sounds like. But that's that whole thing with the accessibility and all this stuff. It's gotten too easy. I'll show you some books. You've got some books? I do have some books. Some literature, some pamphlets.

I have an old. But that's exactly it. Like at one time, you had to mimeograph this shit off. You had to have a mimeograph machine, staple it together. If you wanted to find this stuff, it was hard to find any of this kind of stuff. Yeah. Even the UFO stuff, it was all harder to find. But what you really got to track with a lot of the propaganda that is conspiracy oriented is the right wing drive of it.

Because they. It essentially feels like a conservative impulse. It's a divide and conquer mind fuck. Yeah. You know, so the actual corporate elites can just keep everybody fucked up and confused and fascist if necessary. Yeah, yeah. But don't you – do you think people have a propensity and natural hunger to want just fascism anyway? Of course.

Yeah. It's a lot easier than tolerance. Way easier. Way easier. If everyone thinks the same. So much easier. Just turn it all over to that guy. He'll do everything.

And also just like we can hate all these people and even kill them? Yeah. Great. I'm annoyed. I've been annoyed for- Democracy is just a drag. It's exhausting. It's too hard.

Yeah. Let's not sell it too hard. Let's not sell it too hard. You have the bad gist of- We're kind of like, well, it makes sense, Mark. I'm like, where's this going? Jesus, Paul. Maybe you shouldn't do the podcast.

No, no, no. That's interesting, though. The marginal guy, yeah. Maybe you shouldn't do the podcast. No, that's interesting. The marginal guy, yeah. Good talking to you. Yeah, really good talking to you. Thanks, man. Yeah, man. How was that? That's what we do here.

That is what we do here. The Holdovers is playing in theaters and available to stream on Peacock what a great guy I didn't even get his phone number I should have got his fucking phone number so we could hang out did someone just get me Paul's phone number?

thank you hang out a minute you guys every veteran has a story. Whatever your next chapter, get support with health, education, finance, and more. At veterans.gc.ca slash services. A message from the Government of Canada. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products

in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Man, 1,500 episodes is a lot to take in if you're new to WTF. So for full Marin subscribers, we do archive deep dives where we walk you through some of the memorable episodes in our back catalog. We recently did one about our 200th episode. John Mulaney at the time asked, uh, what do you think is edgy in comedy? And,

uh, I'm interested to know if your answer to that is different than it was back then well I I think it's it seems to me for me to to be vulnerable enough to take real emotional risks on stage and and and figure out where you know the humor is in that and also to stay to to sort of you know keep your heart in the game with that stuff. The answer you gave when he asked that was, it was instant. You said, being completely honest. That's edgy, which I hear as different

from what you just said. They're related, but what you're saying now about being vulnerable and showing that vulnerability that's emotional honesty exactly and it reflects a maturity and some corrections you've had to make in your life about that idea of just being completely honest like you have over the course of the last 12 years kind of redirected certain things because you feel there are things that can be kept personal or there are things that don't have to be shared or you know it's like that thing uh you've talked about with uh with louis when you told him he had to talk about the oklahoma city bombing right like

uh when he was going to do his letterman show but but that's but that's that was different i i think that that honesty can be that a certain type of honesty can be in a defense mechanism and it can and it can be jarring and it can be you know for effect well that's the funny thing you were likening it to people who did edgy comedy for effect at the time in this episode you were like you know it doesn't take much to be like i don't know the pope licks my balls or uh jesus lives in my ass i just love that those are your two examples yeah i kind of like i i'm gonna bring that back jesus lives in my ass to sign up for the full maron so you can get bonus episodes twice a week and every episode of WTF ad free,

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