WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1501 - Joel Edgerton

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

Joel Edgerton’s decision to start a filmmaking collective with his brother and friends in Australia is the foundation for his career and an ideal representation of the collaborative process. Joel talks with Marc about the allure of menace, which he infuses into the films he’s directed like The Gift and Boy Erased, as well as his performances in movies like Black Mass, Animal Kingdom and The Stranger. Joel also explains the revelation that occurred to him on his latest film, The Boys in the Boat, which made him understand why we all love an underdog story. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind.

A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. mind your business. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. What day is it? What's the date?

January 8th. Man, this year is ripping by. It's been a week. It's just ripping by. It's just screaming by this year. So today on the show, Joel Edgerton, this guy's one of the best, just one of the best actors. I recently watched Black Mass like a few times on HBO, and we'd been talking about it, how good he is in it. And then I got an opportunity to have him on. I was like, fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. I'll have him on. He's also been in the Great Gatsby. He's been in Animal Kingdom, the Underground Railroad, Master Gardener. He directed the films, The Gift and Boy Erased.

And he was in that one I like. What was that one called? Was it the, was it the stranger that I'll, that Australian film, that thing is crazy. Like I knew I was going to talk to him and I just, I, I had seen coming attractions where I didn't know what it was. The stranger Australian crime drama based on a true story. And it is the most menacing movie I've ever seen. The acting is beyond anything I can even understand. I mean, Joel's amazing. But that other guy, I got to talk to him about it. I'm going to talk to him about it. I know I did that. I don't even know why I'm playing that trick with you.

I already talked to him about it. How was I not going to talk to him about it? That guy, Sean Harris, in that movie is beyond. I mean, it's like up there, if not better in terms of psychotics than Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs. Somehow it reminded me a little of that. There was some part in it.

Or no, maybe it was like Ted Levine. Is that the guy's name? The guy who played the killer in Silence of the Lambs. He puts it in the basket. That guy. I don't know, man, but Sean Harrison, The Stranger, and Joel Edgerton, whatever, man. I watched it, and it blew my mind.

I also watched The Boys in the Boat, which is the new one directed by George Clooney that he's in. But I just always am kind of awed by this guy. These Australians, man, something in the water down there. Some of the actors down there are just fucking transcendent. I'm at Largo in Los Angeles tomorrow,

Tuesday, January 9th, San Diego. I'm at the observatory North park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows, San Francisco at the Castro theater on Saturday, February 3rd. Portland, Maine. I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts. Outside Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater

on Saturday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia. I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater on Wednesday, April 3rd. Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th. Chicago at the Vic Theater on Friday, April 5th. And Minneapolis, I'm at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets.

Yeah, man, it's been a little crazy. Like, I've been obviously on the edge of it. I'm going to the doctor today because, you know, I had to fucking spiraled out, hit the wall with the nicotine. Again, these patterns, totally predictable and totally predictable how I'm going to handle them, but I'm not getting any younger. You know, I just get to a point where it just becomes clear as fucking day. You know, what addiction looks like in any capacity. You know, if you have it, you have it. And if you don't have it for one thing,

you have it for another. And if you quit one thing, it'll find its way somewhere else. Now, look, my life isn't unmanageable really because of whatever compulsions I have, but the nicotine was getting crazy and it just gets to a point with that shit. You know, it's amazing what your brain will do to rationalize the addictive brain. Like, you know, nicotine is kind of good for your brain. It's like the way, it's like an alcoholic with like, I heard a glass of red wine a day is probably good for you cut to two weeks later a bottle and a half two bottles of red wine a day still believing it's good for you hey nicotine's good for my brain you're sweating dude and you're you know you you fall you're taking weird nauseous naps you're falling asleep with a nicotine lozenge in your mouth,

which you could choke on or a pouch. And you've been through this before, dude. Talking to myself here, not to anyone in particular, but to me. So I had to pull myself off it, got off the coffee, which is what I do. Got on a fairly strong Irish tea, which arguably a more powerful buzz than coffee. Different dude, different. The Irish tea with the Assam in the morning, two cups of that. And my brain is on fucking fire on top of the withdrawal, which is not physical anymore, but mental. Cause you know that the mental thing is like,

you get locked into this sort of like, God, when I get up and have a coffee, I'm going to fucking do some nicotine and start the day off again, you know, kind of humming man. And then you take that away and you wake up and you're like, Oh, I'm gonna, I can't damn it. All right. This is better. damn it. All right. This is better. This is better. Whatever this tone is, this is better. I feel better. It's just, you know, you, it's just sort of, you, you, it's just the damn breaks. You know what I mean? Whenever you self-medicate with whatever it is, even if it's exercise or food, whatever it is, when you pull it out, when he, when he, when you stop it, then the fucking dam breaks. And everything that you've been keeping at bay emotionally, it comes right up. And then you got to decide what to do with it. It's been kind of fiery on stage, though.

I kind of broke through the other night. It's weird because I'll do these longer shows at these smaller venues and I'll get all raw and vulnerable and cry. You know, I cry now. raw and vulnerable and cry. Yeah. I'm, you know, I cry now. Like I just cry sometimes. I tried to resolve a, a rift with an old buddy who was mad at me for whatever fucking reason. And we didn't resolve it, but you know, in trying to resolve it, I choked up and I felt bad about it. I walked away from it like, you fucking idiot. Why'd you get all choked up? Dude, it's okay, man. You know, hurt feelings are hurt feelings, right? You can't fucking, ugh.

I can, but you know, like, it's so, I don't know what your impulse is, but you know, hurt feelings or, you know, I can turn hurt feelings into fucking spite pretty fucking quick. Just, you know, run it through the mill. What are you going to do with this sadness i don't know lash out at my television you know like because there's part of me that wants to check out people just check out i'm not saying of life but out of the fucking you know the the the hamster wheel of being a mid-level public person, feeling like I have to do this comedy that I'm doing because it's important for whatever reason. It's funny, but I need to say my piece and express myself.

I'm fucking tired, man. And this year is going to be a fucking clusterfuck. It's going to break me the fuck apart. I can already feel it. Happy New Year, I mean. What was I saying? Cats are okay. Charlie Beans Roscoe.

Full-fledged kitten asshole, but also sweet guy. Buster. Buster the booster. Sweet guy. Sammy. Sammy's coming around. Sammy. Smushy.

The smusher. Schmooly. Sam, the cat, the orange tabby has now become a sort of self-owning weirdo. Before he was just like antisocial and a little unto himself. Now, full-on fucking whack job. Great cat. Might be the best one in his own way. You know what I mean? It's the geniuses that you're uncomfortable with initially and then you're like this guy got this guy's got a thing he's got a thing this guy all right joel edgerton i was uh honored to talk to this guy uh because i think he's a great actor the The movie that he's currently in, The Boys in the Boat, directed by George Clooney, is currently in theaters, but he's been, man,

watch The Stranger. Whew. Wow. Black Mass, too. Much better movie than I thought it was. And I thought it was pretty good the first time. But I've watched it like five times now. Watching a lot of movies.

Anyway, this is me talking to Joel Edgerton. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? and ACAS Creative. you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the I'm too small for this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. But man, what a great villain. I remember when he did In the Line of Fire. Oh yeah, with the plastic gun, the Clint Eastwood one. Yeah, and when he knocks on the ladies' doors

and he sort of charms his way in. It's one of those villain performances where you actually go he actually he actually terrifies me yeah rather than i know the film is telling me that i should be scared of this person right yeah oh yeah no he he can lock into the scary yeah well you do all right with that yeah a little bit i think there's people that do it naturally so well though just creepy people creepy people? Yeah, yeah. You'd hate to say to them, yeah, we're casting you because you actually scare me in real life.

Well, that happens. It's got to happen all the time. Yeah. We did it in a movie. Which one? Oh, The Gift? No, in The Stranger, which we made in Australia during, I guess, during COVID. Dude, what the fuck is that movie? What do you mean?

Well, I mean, I just watched it. But Sean Harris, man. Sean Harris, that was- He's got a vibration that is actually terrifying. That was fucking crazy. It's crazy, that movie. I watched it. I mean, I've seen a lot of your movies over the years, but, you know, I watched a new one.

And then I saw that The Stranger had come out, but you never know how to register anything. You know, you look at a trailer, it comes by. I'm like, I don't know what that is, you know? And then I'm like, well, just watch it. I didn't know if it was a miniseries or a movie. So I watched it, and it seems to me like I was going to ask you about it. I mean, I mean, that's a, it feels like a risky bit of business as an actor. In what way? Well, into, you know, put yourself into a character that is pretending to be somebody else. Yeah. Even though he's

a cop, it's a difficult situation. And you know, that vibration that's coming off of Sean Harris is menacing. And it's just you guys. I mean, it's an actor's movie. Yeah. Well, it was one of the first times I'd ever sort of shepherded a project. Apart from stuff I'd written, shepherded a project from a book stage, read a book. Is it nonfiction? No.

Yeah, it's nonfiction. It started as a news story that I had read about how they caught this killer. Right. Ten years after the fact. And I think it was such a big case in Australia. So you optioned the book? Yeah. I went looking for the option for the book and someone else had it.

And I waited, crossing my fingers that they wouldn't do anything with it and waited a whole year, finally got a hold of it. How long ago was that? How long was that process? The whole process from getting my hands on the book to making the film was about two and a half, three years. And how did you find, what's your relationship with Thomas Wright? Well, I... The director.

It's quite funny. I was making my second film, Boy Raised. I was looking for people to play a Christian right-wing, you know, teacher at this conversion therapy place. Yeah. And I was getting some tapes in, and this guy's tape was amazing, and I was like, I recognize this guy.

Incredible. Didn't realize he was Australian until someone told me that he was the guy from Jane Campion's series, Top of the Lake. Oh, yeah. A character called Tomo. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's where I've seen him. And I know he's Australian. Okay.

But he'd done a good trick of pretending to be a southern, you know, crazy Christian. Yeah. And I got on the phone with this guy, like FaceTime with him, whatever. And he said, I've just got the finance for my first film that I've written. I didn't realize he was planning on directing. And I was like, well, obviously go do that instead of work for me. Yeah. But can I see it when you've finished?

Yeah. And a year and a half later, we'd both finished our films. He sent it to me. And I was nervous watching anyone's first time film. You finished Boy Erased. Yeah. And he sent me his and he's a first time filmmaker and it could have been terrible

but it was one of the best debut films I'd seen. What was it called? Acute Misfortune, an Australian film. It was voted number one. There was a list of somebody saying best films of Australia of the last decade. Yeah. And that was number one.

Yeah. But it's a very little seen film over here. Yeah. It's about the relationship between a journalist and an artist and the malevolence and danger that he created out of this other true story between an artist and a journalist was so intense that I said to him, I'd really like to find something to do together.

Yeah. We talked, and we talked about this stranger, and that's where it all got. Who did the screenplay? Did you? He wrote it. He wrote it. I had planned.

I had this vision that I would write and direct the movie. Yeah. And when I saw his film, I just realized he was going to be far, it was going to be much better in his hands. Well, it's, you know, it's not a straight narrative, right? No. It's broken up. It's like, you know, there are bits, there are pieces,

almost, you know, kind of poetic in a way, right? But there's a couple of scenes in there, because I've seen you act in a lot of movies, where I don't know where the moments come from, but that scene in that movie where he plays that music for you. Yeah. I mean, when you're in that moment. music for you. Yeah.

What? I mean, when you're in that moment. I mean, he really kind of committed to something. Like, there was like a new depth of weirdness unfolding with that guy all the time. Yeah. You know, I have this thing about writer-directors that I really admire is when they give you a scene that feels necessary to the building of character, the building of story, but they give it to you in a really unorthodox way.

I think David Michaud was fantastic at that in Animal Kingdom. Oh, Animal Kingdom. You know, there's these scenes where you go, oh, the straight version of that scene would, you know, I could imagine it easily, but the way he gets you into that information is so unorthodox. Like, how does he do it? Because that's a menacing movie, too. That was the first big movie, right?

For you. Yeah, there's a scene in Animal Kingdom where Ben Mendelsohn is trying to say to his nephew that he should man up because my character has been shot. Yeah. And that if the shoe was on the other foot or if he was in that position, if he was the one that had killed, I would have already retaliated against the police.

That's the information you get in the scene. But the way that David writes the scene is that Ben's character, through the fact that he's drinking, the nephew's drinking a gin and tonic, starts questioning his sexuality. And the suit that he's wearing is questioning the way he's dressing, therefore questioning his sexuality.

And really undermining his masculinity. And then gives him the information. And it's uncomfortably funny. Well, that's the drive shaft of the entire movie, the stranger. Yeah. And that's why Thomas was, was in my mind more qualified for it because it, the, the, the book is quite dry. It's a, it's a kind of an account of the court case. Yeah. Um, and therefore it becomes an account of the sting operation, this epic sting operation. And Thomas's way into it was to make sure that it wasn't just going to turn into a procedural Therefore, it becomes an account of the sting operation, this epic sting operation.

And Thomas's way into it was to make sure that it wasn't just going to turn into a procedural. Well, I mean, the fact that you don't know as an audience member that this is one of the biggest missing child stories or events in the history of that part of the country. So you don't even get that information until two thirds of the way through. Yeah. There was something about him. I think Thomas being a father, um, your character too, and my character being father.

And while I was making the film, I found out that I was going to become a dad. Really? That this, uh, reluctance to try and exploit the material in a way that was, you know, there's a lot of television that really leans on the harm of children or the harm of women.

Sure. And really explicitly shows that. We did the opposite. You know, you hardly even know why the police are after this guy until three quarters of the way into the film. Right. You're just thinking, he must have done something really terrible for there to be this many undercover cops chasing him around.

So when you work with somebody like Michaud, is that how you say his name? Yeah, David Michaud. And he's Australian. Yeah. So is that where you start picking up your own kind of approach to directing? Absolutely. My brother, David, another guy, Kieran Darcy-Smith,

we have a little company called Blue Tongue, which is really more of just a collective of filmmakers. And we don't really have an office or anything. What does that mean? You guys, you know, you bring projects in, you talk about them, you just, is it a production company? Yeah, we don't have a, we're not a production company for profit. Right.

We basically are cross-pollinating, sharing ideas. Yeah. If I write a screenplay, I'll email it to the gang. Okay. And I'll get like, you know, the tough love. So it's an artist collective. Yeah, and if somebody's got a first cut of something,

we'll always be first to see it. Yeah. It's really just about safety in numbers. It's also the byproduct of it is it's a place where everybody gets envious of each other. Yeah, you fucker. Now my brother goes to a festival and sees David's got a new film. He's like, no, I really want to make my next film now.

Good competitive spirit. Bit of competitive spirit and just the ability to criticize each other without wound. Oh, but does that mean that requires a tough skin or are people actually criticizing in a pleasant way? I think it's nice to get criticism. Well, no, it's never nice. We'd all prefer a pat on the back, I'm sure, but it's nicer to get criticism from people that you understand where it's coming from and what their sensibilities are.

So how long has this collective been in place? I mean, have you been showing them scripts since, like, what was the first film? My brother and I and Kieran made our first film in 1996, a short film. And then it was just a series of short films until, I think, we made it, my brother and I made our first film in 2008. The Square?

The Square. And was that part of the collective? I mean, did everybody? Yeah, we had the name by then. And funnily enough, we only had the name because we needed something to call our bank account, you know, because we needed to put some money in the thing. And yeah, so the collective has sort of been around since the late 90s.

Now, when you're writing a script, because it's weird to me in terms of your writing and directing, the ones that you chose to, you know, cross the board, you know, wrote, directed, produced, because they're very different. wrote, directed, produced. Because they're very different. I mean, The Gift is, again, menacing, and it is a surprising unfolding of a dynamic, but it's a thriller, really.

Yeah. Right? It's a genre film, yeah. Yeah. And that was, you know, you were trying to do that. Yeah. You're like, I'm going to write one of these. I wanted to write my version of a 90s triangle thriller. Yeah.

And then Boy Erased, that's a whole other ball of wax. Yeah. But in terms of what you do acting-wise and writing-wise, I mean, there are two different things, but why that story? I started to realize that pretty much everything that I was writing or everything that I was writing on my own or that I was leaning into as a writer, you know, and that one I adapted, Boy Raised, kind of carried a theme that I keep revisiting even now.

I still do it. And the thing that I keep revisiting is I'm fascinated by when people do things that are wrong and what the next thing they do is. So it's like, you know, I believe we all are, you know, prone to making, having moral hiccups. Yeah. The biggest decision you're going to make is what you would do in the aftermath of a wrongdoing. I wrote a movie called Felony in Australia in 2012 about a policeman who causes an accident with a child and covers it up. The whole movie is about him getting back to a place of truth. In The Gift, it's the opposite.

It's Jason Bateman's character being unable to get back to a place of contrition. And I can't remember, is that because he had repressed the memory? He was absolutely aware of the memory. He was totally aware of his relationship with my character. Yeah. He just continuously, through the movie,

alters his narrative every time uh more and more information comes to his wife it's it's interesting because you are presented as the scary guy yeah yeah well that was the whole point of the gif was that the 90s triangle thriller is you know a lovely couple that are besieged by a crazy person. Right. As to bring us into the movie in that way, but then flip the roles of hero and villain. So, okay. So with Boy Erased, the thing that was wrong or the wrongdoing was on behalf of Russell Crowe as a father. Yeah.

And mainly Nicole, you know, this idea that as a mother, she acquiesced to the wishes of her husband to put her son through this facility and gain her own kind of strength and knowledge enough to go against the will of her husband as her husband, who is a pastor. And find acceptance. Find acceptance and make her own choices about it, you know, and acknowledge her wrongdoing. So this was a broadening of your theme to about the biggest degree you could. Yeah. And the other thing about it was I found enough psychological disturbance in Boyer raised,

you know, I read the book, I read the memoir because I felt like conversion therapy was something of a cult conversion therapy no it's yeah and i'm fascinated by cults well i mean well it depends on how you feel about evangelical christianity as to whether or not that's a cult yes exactly so i that was that was my entry point into the book and i found that that there was something really disturbed there's almost like a horror movie if you were to amplify those events within that. Yeah. So I found enough psychological disturbance in that

to satisfy that other aspect of my interest in story. But it's more of a straighter drama than that. So when you share your screenplays with the collective, in general, what do you find your recurring faults are? As a writer? That doesn't count. Look, there's a great quote that Andrew Dominick said to another friend of mine watching an early cut or a cut of a film,

and that a bunch of people had the same note you know there's a recurring yeah kind of like criticism and Andrew said uh if enough people are telling you you're sick you've got to go to the doctor this is a tough way of saying you know like yeah but I think what I'm always looking for is um universal notes you know it's like if you get the same note three or four times, you really got to listen to it. Right. But what, like, do you overwrite?

Overwrite, for sure. And when you're putting together a screenplay, are you of the school? Because, like, if you look at something like The Stranger, look, the movie you just did, On the Boat, The Boys on the Boat. Boys on the Boat, yeah. You know, that story, there's nothing in that movie, no scene is not going to serve the story. Yeah. And it's very cut, you know, it's sort of cut and dry.

I mean, there's an underdog story. You know, it's based on a true story. You got a little Hitler in it. It's a touch of Hitler. A sprinkle of Hitler. A sprinkle of Hitler. You know, I can see how that script works because, you know,

whatever Clooney decided to do, he wrote it too, right, George? Mm-hmm. You know, he's like,

well, this is the story. Yeah. And so, but when you look at something like The Stranger, you know,

those are totally artistic decisions. Oh, yeah. When you delineate, you know, when you take a narrative out of straight storytelling. Yeah, and I think different people think in different ways.

I'm very plot-driven. My brain is very lensed towards plot, and I'm very impressed with people who understand emotional plot, more subtle plot, more sort of... That's different. It's very different. That could go totally against the narrative.

And I had a really, not an easy time. My post-production on The Gift was five months from the moment we finished shooting to when it was released in the cinema, which I don't know if anyone's been through the post-processes. It's usually for a film, it's a lot longer than five months. But the movie moves in a straight line you know every component builds to the next and really the decisions were about do i cut certain things out yeah if they're not necessary informationally okay or where do i enter or depart a scene how can i compress things to make it more dynamic when i got to boy raised there was a, there was two time frames. And suddenly, you know, that warped my brain

because you could repack that lunchbox in any number of ways. By going back. Yeah, and you could, you know, when you go back, when you flash back, when you choose those chapters, there became more dimensions to it than a straight line thriller and i found it very challenging right but then you can also serve the the emotional narrative in a in a different way yeah you make it deeper just by using story yeah and it's it's interesting when you you choose to put certain scenes how they can have an impact far greater impact further into the

movie than they would if you shoved them up front. Sure. Vice versa. I mean, the options become not infinite, but far greater than, I don't know, something about a movie moving in a chronological or a straight line that I find is a little bit of an easier task in the edit room. So now when you started acting,

was there always the idea that you were going to do all of it? Direct, write? No, my brother. Oh, is he older? Yeah, he's a year and a half older than me. Not much. You know, I realized in hindsight that I've been writing since I was a kid. You know, I've got reams and reams of notebooks and, you know, I was always.

Of what? Oh, just like trying to be my own like Monty Python sketches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just riffing on other people's sort of stuff. You don't do a lot of comedies. No. Because like I. I find it terrifying.

I tell you though, man, you know, I was on the road, you know, I was on the road doing shows at HBO in the room. So I watched, and I'd already seen it two or three times, but I watched, Black Mass was on HBO. Oh, yeah. So I would just check in with it whenever it was running. So I watched it in bits and pieces a few more times. And that character is almost a comedic character i loved it loved it i mean that guy is so close to being a clown it's kind of great yeah yeah no and i love doing that and i actually think that you know i'm i'm a far uh

warmer and funnier human being in real life than I allow myself to be much on screen. I just find comedy on screen terrifying. Weirdly, I did stand-up when I was going through drama school. But it was like a- Where, in Sydney? In Sydney, yeah, at the comedy store. I know that place. So who was around then?

How long did you do it for? Like just about a year. Oh, really? Yeah, it was pretty funny. but it was it was it was safety in numbers it was me and my buddy from drama school we we basically did a little performance like a sketch bit yeah we were pretending to be roadies oh okay that's pretty funny we would extend it into this absurd we were like two dumb roadies and it was you know this this thing that really really worked we would end up setting up the mics before certain concerts in sydney and people think we were really roadies and then

it would develop into an act oh so you did uh you were doing a bit in a real live rock show yeah it's like you know it started with a two two one two and then one of us say three and we'd stop and then we'd slowly see if we could count all the way to 10 and then we count in foreign languages and then we you know it was it was sight gags and sound gags and um oh that's funny so you kind of brought it around so you had a inattentive audience yeah and that that you could build the attention because yes sneak attack yeah people were eventually like what the fuck is happening yeah sneak attack. It was great.

And we both, you know, but we were hiding behind characters. Sure. It wasn't, I have admiration for people who just themselves and a microphone and their own thoughts. I used to do a bit called Honest Mic Check where it'd be like, test, test, one, two, I disappointed my parents, two, two. And just this list of my bad decisions, one, one. I mean, it's so exposing.

And then, so Nick and I did this act. You think comedy is very exposing? Yeah, big time. But when you did it, you were buffered by the character. Yeah, I was hiding behind a character. Sometimes we'd wear wigs and a beanie and just look like the bus driver from Simpsons. But in terms of like, it depends what kind of standup you do. Eventually, you know, you do have some protection because you develop, but like when you were

watching standup in order to be inspired to do this, like where was the comedy store when you were doing it? By the time I did the comedy store was out in some sort of weird area that was like a exposition center area or something. I can't remember. Yeah, we did three different venues, actually. They moved three times. They were in Cleveland Street, which was Surry Hills sort of area,

near Redfern. Then they were like way up near Five Dock, which is further down this road called Parramatta Road. And then they moved to where the cinemas are. Right, that's where I was. Fox Studios. That's the one I played last. Yeah, Fox Studios is where they are still now.

I just remember going there, and the guy took me to the zoo. What? The guy booked the place. He's like, you got anything to do? I'm like, not really. He's like, let's go to the zoo. What a weird thing to do. It's a good zoo, though.

Great zoo, and it's full of Australian weird animals. Yeah. So, you know, it was good for me. I'm not going to have a kangaroo walk up to me anywhere else. No, because they bounce. Yeah. But don't think it... If you see a kangaroo walk, mate, you're going to make a lot of money. But in my recollection, they're kind of around the animals. They're not all in cages, like some of the birds and shit, right? In Taronga. Yeah. Well, you know, some of the ones that will eat your face off are going to be in cages. They're locked up. Yeah.

Yeah. But so what were you watching, though, to want to do comedy? Was it Monty Python mostly? Well, yeah. Like, you know, I was right into that. Yeah. A lot of British comedy. Yeah.

A lot of British comedy shows. Did you go to shows? Yeah. My brother and I were going to lots of live shows Yeah And we would do it in LA too Oh yeah? Yeah

Because we were living right down Right up the street from the comedy store That's where I worked, yeah You know, and When was this? Oh, like over the last 15 years Oh yeah? Yeah

So just showing up I remember going to see And some people that I used to see Like Tiffany Haddish and Jared Carmichael doing these little sets there on a Sunday night, and then they're all, you know, they're off. Big stars. Yeah, big stars. So during this time, so you're doing stand-up when you're in college,

and were you studying? Yeah, I was studying drama. Where at? University of Western Sydney, which is shut down now. So we would catch the train in, do a set, catch the train. When it all came crashing down, Nick and I decided that, you know, we'd been milking this one thing for so long that we should be brave enough to try something new.

And we went along on one of the open mic Wednesday nights. Sure. And there'd been these two whales that had been hanging out in Sydney Harbour. Yeah. For ages. Yeah. So we did this whole thing about these two whales, which ended with Nick and I rubbing foreheads together and making whale communication noises.

Yeah, sure. You know? Yeah. Anyway, we turned up on the Wednesday. There were two bucks parties there, stag nights. Oh, God. The worst. Yeah.

And they just ripped us apart. And we weren't really good At handling hecklers Yeah Because you were Insulated in your bit Yeah And I remember thinking

As we Caught the train back There was barely anyone On the carriage It was 10.30 at night Or whatever Just thinking I think that's the end

Of our comedy Let's go hide out In Penrith We're going to be okay though And actually I will say this. Nick, talking about exposing, he ended up doing this incredible piece on his own without hiding behind a character in very significant fashion.

And we all, not to throw anyone else under the bus, but I suffer my own serious social anxiety. And Nick went through some things. And rather than avoid it, did one of those things where he put himself in the place where he exposed things that were going on for him. It became very personal. And it was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. Yeah?

Yeah. And he did that on stage? On stage. What was- By himself with a microphone what was uh he going through oh i'd be i'd be you know revealing too much of his personal life to tell you that but he revealed i guess he did he did he'd uh he'd had an episode and gone into an institution just for a week shit yeah and um and he ended up kind of talking about the experiences. Yeah. And it was kind of beautiful.

It's one of those sort of transcendent stand-up things. It wasn't just about the humor. Right, of course. Yeah, yeah. It ended in this sort of really kind of place of incredible pathos as well. Well, that's the best kind. Do you know Maria Bamford? She's a genius.

You should check that stuff out. I just love it when anything, whether it's a movie or a play or a piece of stand-up, gives you a little bit of a nutritional value as well. With the risk. Yeah. The emotional risk. So from early on, you decided you were not going to reveal yourself straight out. No. No way.

I'm not that brave. I really aren't. Certain things terrify me. It's weird what I'm willing to do on screen, but I would never do, you know, without that mask. And it's really kind of absurd to think that the mask is just an abstract idea. But at some point you knew that you wanted to perform and you knew that you wanted to act. So like, cause I try to figure out sometimes there are certain actors, some of you Australians are very good at this. I don't know what it is, if it's the water or

the country, but, but, you know, to, to sort of have that much faith in the mask in order to reveal what seems to be, uh, you know, a fairly deep emotive zone within you that you're aware of, you know, you, you know, all your focus has to go in, uh, to that mask. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't know what it is that makes me really interested to do it. I've become a real hermit in my life lately. Really? Where do you live? Here?

We've been sort of traveling around. I have kids now, and we were living like we were a circus for a while. I mean, we were 12. It's because of the shooting? Yeah, shooting, and then we sort of got a place in London, and we've got a place in Sydney. Because of the shooting? Yeah, shooting.

And then we sort of got a place in London and we've got a place in Sydney. And I think after, what, a year and a half being locked down in COVID in Sydney, or sort of not really doing anything much but hanging around the house, and we made that one movie, The Stranger. That's a hell of a movie to make in the middle of an isolated. So you brought that to the screen. And I realized that I enjoy not going out. Yeah.

I think it's partly because of the kids as well, but I'm in the middle of a press tour for Boys in the Boat right now, and I get... I'm okay with it. I know how to switch it on. I think being on a red carpet's like playing a character, but I would rather not be there. Yeah. And I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth or whatever.

I appreciate that it's part of the job. But going back, when you decided to act, where did you realize that you, what event or what role or what part of your life did you realize that you could effectively, you know, put these masks on? I, um, I saw the crucible. I remember when I decided I was going to be an actor, I was going to either go to, um, fine art school. How old were you? Uh, this is when I was like 16, 17. I was thinking about the end of high school what am i gonna do yeah yeah yeah i really wanted to either go and learn to be a painter um or go to drama school and i went and saw this production of the crucible at the opera house henry miller yeah

henry miller was uh this um actor called john howard and i went back a second time to see it. My school took me. Yeah. And then I went back a second time. Right. And I remember just thinking, I want to do that. So my ambition at that time was about becoming a stage actor. Yeah.

I never saw the possibility of going anywhere beyond that. Yeah. I just thought, you know, the idea of being in a movie was like way too far away from anything, you know, was out of my reach. But the stage was immediate. The stage was. And drama school was all about teaching kids to go

and learn how to, you know, be in a play. Yeah. And I distinctly remember thinking I was making my choice in that moment. Yeah. And then you went to drama school right out of high school? Yeah, I auditioned for like the prominent that moment. Yeah. And then you went to drama school right out of high school? Yeah. I auditioned for like the prominent drama school. Yeah.

No, I auditioned for the one that was sort of further out west, a lesser known school. Yeah. I think I was a bit, because I left high school, I was on the young side. I was like barely 17. And I thought, I think I was saying that I thought I was too young, but really I was probably just scared that I wasn't going to get in.

So I went to this other drama school. Yeah. Best thing that ever happened to me. Was not to go to the... No, it's just like the choice I made was the right choice, I think, because of the people. For acting or the school? Yeah, the acting, the people I met.

I fell in love. You know, all sorts of things that happened to me. If I'd have gone the other place, I would have had a different set of experiences. Because you would have been beating the shit out of yourself all the time. Yeah, and the other school was one of those schools that really was under the microscope. Agents were always looking at their work. It was sort of a tougher gig at the drama school we went to.

But I'll tell you what we did do, which is probably why i became a filmmaker as well there was no budget for the school so when we did a production other students would you know design help make the costumes yeah i did lighting i helped on the lighting rigs of two senior shows. Yeah. I helped build the sets for two other shows. We were- Theater community. Imperative that we kind of diversified. Well, that's real theater. And a lot of students who went to Nepean became,

started running festivals. Yeah. Coordinated things, became producers. They weren't just going, if I don't become an actor, that's it. Right. And when you were growing up, I mean, because I don't know what the drive is, and it seems like what I noticed over the last week in terms of how you work, it feels to me, and I don't know because I'm speculating

because I've only done a bit of acting myself, but I, it seems to me that you, you, you find one, I don't know what it is or how you do it, but there, there seems to be one key into these guys. You play that at some point you're like, you, you, you see the role, you accept the role. And then you figure out there, there, there, it feels like there's a way that you figure out a way into that guy. Like, you know, because when you look at the character in Black Mass, you know, there, you know, that guy becomes a whole guy very quickly and he's, and he's complicated because of his physicality.

So like, I don't know how you do that. Do you? Yes and no. I mean, I suspect part of it is, you know, most of the time I go to work, I'm having to also really think about my voice and trying to get rid of my Australian accent unless I'm doing... That's like a big lift. Yeah, and it's...

And years ago, I used to get really nervous about it because it felt like a general mishmash of just going, well, if I'm thinking about, there's no such thing in my mind as a general American accent. Yeah. Unless I had one and I grew up with one, that would be my accent. Yeah. So I started thinking, well, the way to approach something like Black Mass is to get the real voice of the person. Did you go meet that guy? No, but I had recordings of him.

Yeah, yeah. There's court recordings of him making depositions. And different ones, ones where he's on the defensive and ones where he's getting kind of heated. There's also interviews where he's very relaxed when he's not under fire. And he's going, that's's not under fire and he's going that's the voice I'm gonna use

all you guys like that's the that's the one that has the worst kind of you can really fuck up a Boston accent yeah

I I had a guy at the like border patrol guy yeah that I gave my passport to and he's like what are you doing

and I said I'm on my way to you know Boston I'm gonna shoot this movie and he's like oh yeah which movie and he was clearly I suddenly was like And he's like, what are you doing? And I said, I'm on my way to Boston. I'm going to shoot this movie. And he's like, oh, yeah? Which movie? And he was clearly, I suddenly was like, oh, he's clearly from Boston. Yeah.

I said, you know what? This thing about Whitey Bulgin. And his last words to me were, don't fuck it up. And he had these eyes like, I'm never going to let you back in the country. Don't fuck it up. And what was weird is that John Connolly didn't just have a typical Southie accent too. He had been in New York and Baltimore and been educated in other ways.

His accent was a bit of a mishmash and it was very nasal. And I'm thinking, if I really go for this, some people who know will be like, yeah, that's a pretty good assimilation of him. And other people will be like, what the fuck are you doing? Oh, right, right, right. And I just thought, I'm just going to go for it. I loved it, man.

You know, it's like I watched, the first time I watched it, because I interviewed Cooper, you know, and he's a deep dude. He means business. Scott Dooper, yeah, yeah. He means business, that guy. Yeah. He does. And, you know, the first time I watched it, I had a little bit of a hard time getting past, you know, Depp's look.

Yeah, right. I said, who was I talking to? I was talking to Sarsgaard the other day. I said, it was sort of Nosferatu meets Whitey Bulger, you know. But then after, like, he nailed the accent so hard. You nailed it so hard. And Rory is a fucking genius. Yeah, Rory, man.

What the fuck is that? Jesse Plemons. Plemons, great. Everybody. Everybody's great. But when his wife, she's also genius. The woman who played your wife. Julianne Nicholson.

She's amazing. I just saw her. Excellent. Crazy. But when she goes, you're walking different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a peac her. Excellent. Crazy. But when she goes, you're walking different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a peacock. And you are.

Yeah. And you had to at some point, do you make those decisions or does Cooper come up and does Scott say, like, all right, this is where you are? I just love there's little clues in every script that just go, oh, that's something I really got to lean on. Yeah. You know, what I loved about, you know, Seinfeld,

it's a great lesson for writing anything, even if it's not comedy, is those identifiable character traits that immediately make you go, look, he's a close talker, he's this, he's that. I think it's worth every now and then thinking about characters and going, what is that identifiable thing?

Right. If he was an animal, what would he be? Animal stuff. John was a real peacock. Yeah, yeah. People described him as a peacock. Yeah. I'm like, how do I be a peacock?

Yeah. And other characters are diminutive or they sort of squirrely or whatever. And after a while, I love going on set going, all right, if we needed to improvise a whole scene now, I'd feel comfortable doing it. Okay. So that's how you enter the thing. Yeah.

Now, like, but with the boys in the boat, like, that guy is, you know, he's a coach. He's a leader. But he's also got the weight of his own past on him, expectations. Yeah. So when you did that work for that guy what was it i was just looking at all the coaches that i see pacing sidelines of you know various sports who just look like they hate their job i mean you know i was just trying to let as little warmth out

of myself as possible yeah um you know and i i know because george said this to me that you know, he was starting to send the dailies to the studio. It was like, well, hold on a second. This guy is just not likable at all. It was like, well, the whole point of the script was suggesting that he never smiles, this guy, and that, you know, will this be the season that we might see a cracker smile? Right.

I was like, well, that's the indication that he's one of those coaches that looks like he's on the verge of a heart attack and that he derives no joy from his job because he cares so much. So I was like, good, I can get my grimace out here and I can not smile so much. But I felt a little bit of pressure from the studio side, almost like I've got to do that while also being likable. I'm like, no no i want to get to

the end of the movie and then be able to look one of the boys and say i'm proud of what you've done and it has weight has weight you know because that's what some father-son relationships are like yeah well there was a like a a lot of father-son stuff in that movie yeah you know and the movie i i think it's the tightest movie Clooney's made. It has a galloping rhythm to it. Yeah, and it's just like as a period piece, it's solid. And the story, in some ways, it's just how you're going. You can't lose with an underdog story if they win. You know what I mean?

In a way. So you're protected by the story. So he's got to figure out how does he build that. The suspense of it. You're right, isn't it? Because we all know how they're going to end. I mean, he pointed out, same as a romantic comedy. It's like the movie exists because they're eventually going to get together.

So how do you build the tension? It's about the ride. Yeah. And then there's tension between you and the kids and there's tension between him and his absentee dad. Right. And there's like a weird tension between America and Germany that's not in full force yet.

Yeah. It's also, you know, I think the structure of the film is, you know, there's three big races and there's an obstacle that emerges after each victory. Oh, that's right. For the next race. Then Joe, which is, you know, Callum's character, becomes his own obstacle because of his dad, like as you point out.

I mean, one of the things that really kills me about that story, actually, because now I'm a dad, everything about children affects me a gazillion times more than it used to. How old are your kids? Two and a half, twins. Oh, so you got into it late? Yeah, yeah. So now like you have this.

I'm going to be the dad at drop off. It's like, you're the granddad or you're the dad. I'm the dad. Yeah, yeah. But it opened up a whole party, I guess, huh? Oh, big time. And it's changed the way that I read things that I'm interested in. How so?

I am just when I read stuff about fathers and their kids. Right. It resonates with me on a whole new level. Well, that's interesting because at the place you're at now with them being so young and the love being so pure and the disappointment not having happened yet, you can work from that place and then build on that speculatively. Yeah. I was in the middle of shooting 13 Lives with Ron Howard in Queensland. Yeah. The kids were due a month after we were due to wrap,

but they're twins and they came early and really early, like seven and a bit weeks early. Yeah, yeah. And Ron, who has twins, you know, not that that matters, but he was very empathetic to the situation. He said, as soon as it's going to happen, I'll let you go. Yeah. For a week, you know, obviously we've got to finish at some point.

Yeah, right. And so they all wished me well and I got on a plane and went down and the next day the kids were born. And then I came back eight days later. What was it like, you know, being, you know, what are you, in your 50s at that point? I'm 49 now, so I was 47. And the first scene back, I'm in this movie telling these Thai officials

that in order to rescue these boys from the cave, that most certainly there's going to be fatalities. And even saying it now, I couldn't stop myself from feeling emotional about if i'd shot this scene a week and a half earlier i would have had no trouble and i'm you know look we all everyone has ever been to drum school at some point's gone look at me cry look at me cry yeah but there are days on set where you're just like all right no this is not a this is not one of those things better i'm stoic here and i had a real hard time being stoic because I'm going, oh, kids dying.

Yeah, but stifling the feelings is a choice. Yeah, yeah, but it was like almost impossible to stifle them. No kidding. I kept saying to Ron, can we just do one more take? Can I just try and be a bit cooler here? He's like, no, no, it's good. It's like, yeah, I think I'm milking it too much. But I'd become far more emotional.

There was a novella I read about where a small component of it, and I'll hopefully be in a movie about it, but it's a father loses his wife and his child. And I was very moved by that when I read it 10 years ago. And I read it again last month. It's funny because I don't have kids and I'm 60, but I've always had animals. And now what's happening to me is I can't take any animal pain at all.

No. I can't take it. If I'm just watching a fucking Instagram reel and an animal's in trouble, I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah. So my brother started his career at the same time I went to drama school. He went off and became trained with stunt guys. Yeah.

He's a stunt man. He was. Well, he still is, and he's a qualified stunt coordinator. But he directs the movies. And he directs movies, and he's directed three series of TV shows. He teaches himself whatever he's interested in, and he's very good at it. He can edit everything.

Anyway, I get these messages from him that are basically links to an Instagram thing. Yeah. And the moment I open them, I see it's a guy on a BMX bike on the top of his parents' roof. Yeah. And I know exactly how it's going to end. I can't watch it because in 2000, I had a neck injury,

nearly broke my neck. I was drunk on a beach in Thailand and I was doing somersaults and I stretched all the nerves and I couldn't use my left arm for eight months. What? But I could have broken my spine. Whether it's that or something else, I can't watch people get head injuries or, you know. It's a good thing. I don't know that we're all supposed to get numb.

No. Because some of those accident videos, you're like, what happened to that guy? Yeah, exactly. What about the next day? Yeah, I just cannot watch the end of it. My brother sends them to me all the time. Oh, my God.

Dude, stop sending them to me. So you fucked up, you almost broke your neck on a bike drunk? Yeah, no, I was doing a somersault on a beach. Oh. So you fucked up your, you almost broke your neck on a bike drunk? Yeah. No, I was doing a somersault on a beach. Oh. So was that the end of the drinking? That was Y2K. Remember when we all thought the planes were going to fall out of the sky?

I ended up in the back of a pickup truck on an island in Thailand getting driven to, someone was going to wake up a doctor and say, hey, this guy can't move his arms. Yeah. And. Oh my God. And. Oh, my God. And that was, and I was about to come back and shoot this movie in Australia on a big cargo ship. Yeah.

And I had to, I came into rehearsal with one arm that was like a string. Oh, no. Because my arm had atrophied. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I knew I had to do all these scenes where I climbed like rope ladders. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I went up to the director and I said, oh, look, before we start shooting, you need to know that I can't use one of my arms and I don't know what's wrong with it. Yeah. And she was like, we'll work it out. I was like, thanks. So you're flopping around, your arm's flopping around.

I had to grab it with the other hand and put it in my pocket. My father was a member of golf. God bless golf. I don't play, but because of his golf community, you know, they're all doctors and surgeons and politicians. He knew of a guy that knew a guy who was, um, a neurosurgeon, which is impossible to get an immediate appointment with. And he did a favor for me and he saw me and he said, Oh, your nerves are connected. They're just like really stretched. Yeah. so this is going to take you about six months to get the movement in your arm back oh but it got back got back so but what did but like what about the booze

i mean did you did that was that an indicator that maybe i'd love to say that that was like full rock bottom for me but uh i still drink i I haven't had a drink for about a week, which feels great, but I'm Australian and I'd have to hand my passport in. You have national pressure. I've got a really good level of control with all that stuff. Was there a time where you didn't? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I went through some stuff in my 20s. Yeah? Big time. But no, not anymore. Oh, good. Yeah, I went through some stuff in my 20s. Yeah. Big time. But no, not anymore. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah. That's a whole episode. Yeah.

You know, it's, I'll tell you what I will say about that. Yeah. And this is why I have such a big love for my folks beyond what I would already have anyway, is that those times when kids sort of stumble and fall, parents can be amazing if they come at you with very little judgment and just pure love. And I had that. Oh, good. But, you know, I was a private, I started life, my father was starting his legal business.

Yeah. He was a lawyer. You know, we weren't that wealthy, but by the time I finished high school, I was very much sort of upper middle class. Yeah. And I always had a lot of judgment for anyone who fell off the rails in any way. Yeah. It's like, oh, you know, poor choices.

Yeah. I didn't see addiction as anything other than just bad choices. Sure. So to then become a person who's sort of doing those things. Out of control. Out of control. Yeah. I used to think, oh, if you have regrets in life and you could turn back time,

I could take that little chunk of my life away. But I would never do that because I believe that as an actor, your greatest strength is to have empathy, observation and empathy and to go through any experience where you otherwise would have judged yourself suddenly equips you with a new form of empathy. So now when I see anyone going through anything, I just have empathy for it rather than, oh, you're a rat bag and you deserve everything that you get.

Well, you can take two steps. You can be like, I understand what you're going through and I feel it in my heart, but you're an idiot. Yeah. You just add a step, the empathy step. Dude, yeah. I mean, I was down the road actually on, on sunset. And I used to spend a lot of time in LA and I haven't been here for years. And this guy walked into the gas

station. He's a homeless guy. He opened the fridge. He said to the tenant, he said, I'm going to take this Gatorade. I'm stealing it. I'm going to steal it. Stop me if you want, but I'm stealing it. And then grabbed it And walked out I was like wow I mean you know Also look If someone wants To take something from me Chances are

If they're risking Going to jail For it They really need it No yeah And I'm okay without it And what do you have Like you know

They can't You know there are things Like I always think about that If they rob me Or they want something It's like alright You can get a new one. Sure.

It's all replaceable. Just don't touch my family, you know? So did you look in looking back on that period in your life, did you feel, was it self-medicating? Did you feel like, you know, you were resolving something that needed to be resolved? I think it was just the slippery slope of, you know, I do think that there's an aspect of me that I find my brain is very noisy.

Oh, yeah. And I do think that drinking and other things help me just kind of escape my thoughts. But, you know, I was just one of those guys who was, you know, young and just go, you know, you try this and you try that. And it's like now that you think was um you know young and just go you know you try this and you try that it's like now that now that you think about you in a way your parents sort of talk about this is a gateway to this is yeah i was just like i'll try that yeah no yeah yeah and then one day you try something you're like oh this is pretty good this is pretty good this is a way of life yeah

this is good i'm gonna take me more of that. Yeah, yeah. Give it to me. Then you're full in. You've gone through all the gates. Yeah, yeah. Well, good for you for pulling out. Now, what about, it doesn't seem you've done stage in a long time. Not a long time. 10, 2010, I did straight car.

You played Stanley? I played Stanley. Holy shit. Yeah, yeah. How was that mask? That was, it was different feelings in different cities sydney i was i felt 10 feet tall and we had a great time washington dc where we went next was great and then in in new york i felt the looming shadow of everybody whether they were praising me or criticizing me, everybody was talking about, you know, every review,

everything was about Marlon Brando. And not that they were saying, you know, you got close to being Marlon Brando, you did this. But it was just the feeling like you were kind of like rubbing shoulders with or encroaching on a ghost. Yeah, sure. And I started to get very self-conscious and I wasn't enjoying myself. And it was weird because Kate and I, Kate, beautiful Kate,

she said to me and... Kate Blanchett. Kate Blanchett said to me and one of the other guys in the play, because we were cramped in these tiny dressing rooms and she had this massive room all to herself, come and share my dressing room. Play would end and Lauren Bacall would come in or Mance Corsese would come in.

Meryl Streep would come in. You know, like every night someone came to kiss the ring. Yeah. You know, and she was wonderful. Yeah. And a movie star who'd sort of rub shoulders with all these people. Yeah. And so we were in there taking our makeup off every night,

meeting all these sort of incredible film stars. Sure. One night I got a photo with Joel Schumacher, Joel Grey, and Joel Cohen. Yeah. Four Joels in my photo. Yeah. And I felt rotten.

I mean, I didn't feel, I felt great from the moment the play started to the play ended because I was too busy to feel, you know, low on myself. But every morning I wake up going, oh my God, like, am I okay to do this? And I feel terrible and I feel like really self-conscious. Just because you were beating the shit out of yourself? I was beating the shit out of myself and I just didn't enjoy it. And it made me not want to do theater anymore. And it's only now that I've started to think i would like to go back and do something that that was uh in a small theater um but it was i used to love it man i did it for

years you did a lot of shakespeare too which is like that really that's got to inform a lot of things i mean you're able to go through all the emotions yeah that language. I did Henry IV, parts one and two. No idea what I was doing, but, you know, I was trying to drag Shakespeare into my own sense of whatever the modern world is. And I was avoiding the language. Yeah, oh, really, yeah. And then I worked with this beautiful actor in Australia,

John Gaydon, who was sort of a master at understanding and leaning into the language in order that when we did Henry V, I could really embrace it. And I stopped kind of judging Shakespeare's language as some museum piece. Right. And actually, the more you lean into it, and I know this because I've watched Ian McCallum

on a gazillion YouTube videos talk about Shakespeare and convey meaning by really leaning into the iambic pentameter. Sure. Leaning on the right sort of stresses. And it's like, there's a science to it that is divine. Yeah. Apparently. It's lasted centuries.

And some people just have this sort of mastery of it and others don't. So the role of Stanley didn't break you. It was you who broke you. Yeah, yeah. I got inside my own head. I went to a health farm at the end of doing that play. But that year I'd done Animal Kingdom for like four weeks

beginning of the year. Then went off and did Warrior, which is the hardest physical challenge of got all ripped and then i went home um had like two weeks off and went into rehearsal for street car yeah and i was exhausted but more than anything i think i was my own worst enemy allowed the it just felt like i was um cursing myself well i mean that's the fucking problem with with talent and empathy and having a certain type of personality is that, you know, when you turn on yourself, it can go pretty fucking deep.

Yeah. And you can lose that battle. Yeah. I find that I do it all the time. I'm doing it even at the moment with... Right during this conversation? You're doing great. You're doing great, Jules great i'm pinching i'm

cutting myself under the table yeah sorry about the blood um the um i delayed making my first film directing my first film for a good year and a half two years because i was finding any excuse to procrastinate it's because i was terrified of doing it yeah Yeah. And then within, yeah, and within like the first day of shooting, I was walking up the driveway towards the set going, what kind of person am I going to be? Because I've never done this before. Like am I going to, the worst aspects of my personality come out. Am I going to make my day?

And can I construct a scene? Because if I can construct a scene and I trust the script, then maybe I've got a chance to make a good movie. By the end of the first week, I'd seen a few scenes cut together and I had faith. I was making my days and I was enjoying myself. Oh, good. But the fear in that year and a half leading up to it, then I get close to making my second film and exactly the same fears were there, maybe even amplified that, am I going to be

able to do this? I'm like, I've done it before. I've made a movie before. Like surely I should have felt the confidence to go, I've been through this experience and now I'm thinking about making another film like towards the end of next year, I've written something and I'm already filling my head with the doubt of that. Huh. Already. And I find it fascinating about, we've been on this press tour for Boys in the Boat.

Yeah. Talking about, you know, why do we love an underdog story? I think we love an underdog story because we all have imposter syndrome. Yeah. I think we're all going, we're not really all people think we're cracked up to be. We're not that smart. We're not this. I think we're cracked up to be. We're not that smart. We're not this. I think we're all carrying around self-doubt.

Well, I mean, sure. But I mean, does it happen to you in roles? Or is it just about the task of being a leader and a director and driving a thing? I would often agree to do a job because I'm scared of it. Yeah. I would avoid doing some jobs because I feel like I've already. You could just do it. Yeah.

But the thing about saying yes to a job that scares you is you say yes, knowing that fear is not really going to set in until closer to shooting. I never know. And then there's no way of backing out. So you corner yourself. Yeah. But I think it's important to challenge myself. Of course.

Challenge yourself. Well, I mean, that's, yeah. I mean, when you corner yourself, you know, that's where, you know, your instincts will take over and you've done the work, whether you know it or not. I just, I have a hard time with the creative self-doubt because really it becomes, like I was trying to talk about it on stage. The difference between you who engages publicly and what's inside you, you're literally negotiating with that thing inside you. Like, so it doesn't take over. Yeah.

So you don't show up and go, I can't do it, I can't do it. Yeah. Like, so it doesn't take over. Yeah. So you don't show up and go, I can't do it, I can't do it. Yeah. I have this feeling too, like, you just, something will come to the rescue. Right.

But that's the, so you're hooked on that. Yeah. It's that, I really admire people who are great at improvisational stuff as well, because that really is sort of leaning off the edge of the cliff and going I will land on my feet but that feeling like something will come to the rescue I love going to work in the morning for a scene yeah we did a tv series for apple that finished in April I couldn't think I couldn't even look at the schedule the day with that Star Wars thing no it was uh this thing called dark dark matter, yeah. But I was playing two versions of the same guy and every day, all day, shooting. And I'd finish a scene and go, okay, what's the next scene?

Because I couldn't prepare a whole day. Right. And there was something really terrifyingly sort of improvisational about the thought process of leaning into the next scene. Exhilarating. Right, but that's the pure creativity is when it comes, you don't know where it came from. Yeah.

And you go, I don't know how I'm going to make this. This scene, I have to get it done and not go home beating myself up that I didn't do a good enough job. Yeah. And something comes to the rescue. And you're able to do that. You're able to not beat yourself up. You know when you did a good job. Yeah. Oh, comes to the rescue. And you're able to do that. You're able to not beat yourself up. You know when you did a good job.

Yeah. Oh, that's good. The one thing that changed for me on the Great Gatsby, Baz is such a collaborative, amazing guy. A lot going on. Yeah. And there's big setups. So in between setups, sometimes he'd play the monitors

and people would put on their 3D glasses and watch what we just shot. Yeah. And then there's big setups. So in between setups, sometimes he'd play the monitors and people would put on their 3d glasses and watch what we just shot. And I'd get involved. It's like, Oh, okay. This is, I get to watch me in this scene. I'll do that. And I'd go home and I'd be cutting the scene together in my head almost. And, uh, and overthinking what I'd provided for him. And, uh, and I'll tell you who, you know, like all the actors would do it. The only person who wouldn't was Kerry Mulligan. And we'd all be there with our 3D glasses. Kerry'd be sitting over there with headphones in going basically like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like didn't want to hear it.

Didn't want to listen. Didn't want to see it. And ever since that movie, I just, I'd never look at playback. and ever since that movie, I just, I'd never look at playback. And even when I'm directing, my brother will come and sit behind the monitor and I'll know what the frame is and I'll have a double walk around inside of it and I'll know what the parameters are. And I look at my brother after a take and I'm like, you know, was that, how was that?

You know, and he gives me a gesture that says, yeah, or go again. Um, and I'll only look at it if it's me and another actor in a two-shot. But watching playback means the next time I perform, I'm inside the scene and outside the scene watching myself. Yeah, why add the other thing? There's no way it can be good. Have you ever watched yourself, do you watch yourself do stand-up? Not often.

How do you feel when you do? I've gotten better at it because I can watch myself going back to 1989. Wow. Like it was a big moment when I watched 1989 me and had the experience of like, well, that's me. I mean, he doesn't know what he's doing. You know, he's scared, but it is me. I was more concerned with it being me than being bad.

Man. Someone once said to me, watching a live performance is like watching a high school play through the wrong end of a telescope. But nowadays, you know, they've staged these like um what do you call it shakespeare british state shakespeare plays yeah or something and they got a better camera crew doing it rather than just a document from one angle right right right right but um you know we all had that experience of listening to our voice for the first time going fuck i sound like that yeah yeah but

there's nothing you can do in that moment there's no way you can backload a better you. Like there's people that are like, I wish I was in my 20s again. I don't. No. There's no way. Me either. Me either, man. Yeah.

But that's interesting about watching yourself on stage because there's nothing in my mind more pure than, say, playing jazz or doing stand-up in terms of interaction with an audience because it's like riding a wave or whatever. Sure, but you figured out a way to make it exciting. I mean, that thing you're talking about, which is what drives how I work, where you don't know where it's going to come from, but you can only trust that you have what's in place to bring it.

But that's also sort of an addict's trip, you know what I mean? Yeah. Because there are actors that will work the fuck out of something before they get out there. There's a rigidity that makes, uh, like, so there's some people I can understand why if you go, if you're going to change a word of this scene, you need to let me know the night before. Yeah.

And I understand that. Sure. But I think, um, I have this methodology in my mind and I know like when I hear about the way, say, Zone of Interest was shot. I haven't seen that yet. I missed the screening. You know, this idea of actors behaving in a room by themselves with hidden cameras, the idea of rehearsing in the morning without a crew and then letting a camera crew come

and document a long take. These different ways that actors can feel less like they're just giving tiny components of a scene and have more of a feeling that you would get on a live stage. Yeah. Because filming can be very stilted. It's the worst. Yeah.

You do a scene, the camera's on for three minutes and you go sit for nine hours. Yeah. And then you come back and you got to pick up i don't get how you guys do that really yeah especially when the um you know the whole trying to hold on to certain darker emotions yeah yeah you know you can use these four actors to hang on for dear life with the ear pods in listening like you know cold play or whatever is going to get them juiced up. Stay sad. Yeah, don't bring my latte until after I'm done. Well, this movie, The Boys in the Boat,

must have been kind of a fun thing to work on in a way. Oh, no, it was fun. Yeah, and it came out great. Everybody looks good. Yeah, and I feel like, you know, George could write a pretty great expose of Hollywood from his perspective. Yeah, but he's, well. He tells stories that are so.

Right. Well, that'd be a fun one. Yeah. You know, like, cause a lot of people, once they write the expose about Hollywood, that's the end of it. Yeah, that's it. They just burn all the bridges or at a point in their career and they're like, fuck you. He's just bitter. But I talked to George and, you know, in real life,

he did something that I'll never forget that indicated that he's genuinely a good guy. Yeah. Decent guy. Yeah. I love that, you know, when you hear that. So for years, you know, the rumor mill of actors is so crazy. I mean, about actors, you know, I worked with Christian Bale

and, you know, it was like Christian Bale and, you know, it's like, oh, he must be like, he must be a really angry guy. I'm like, he's a complete sweetheart. You know, just because there's a recording of him yelling at someone who did something. Rightfully so. Probably rightfully so, right? You get it.

Or Tom Cruise and, you know, these weird stories. I heard stories about Tom that I will, that eclips eclipse a thousand weird stories. Yeah. You know, just generosity beyond. Yeah. And not because he's rich either. Yeah. Because he's thoughtful.

Yeah. And I just always think back to, and, you know, my family back in Australia, there's, you know, things get reduced to these sort of weekly magazines. Yeah. Is it true that so-and-so did this? Yeah. And I'm like, oh, mum, I have no idea. Yeah, yeah. I have no idea. Good luck weekly magazines. Yeah. Is it true that so-and-so did this? And I'm like, I have no idea. Yeah, yeah.

I have no idea. Good luck to him. Yeah. That's the risk of being a public person at a certain level is that people are going to project and want sorted things. They're going to want the worst. But a lot of people don't realize that, you know, you all have lives. Yeah.

Every day is a day. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? For some people to do what people think they do, it would have lives. Yeah. Every day is a day. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, for some people to do what people think they do, it would have to be half their job to be that shitty. Have you ever spoken to Guy Pearce? No. Guy Pearce used to be in an Australian TV show called Neighbours.

You know, where a lot of Australian actors start. Neighbours are home and away in this sort of soaps. And Guy was like one of the first big stars in one of those shows. And this lady at a grocery store came up to him and she's like, oh, Guy Pearce, Guy Pearce, you're in Neighbours. He's like, what do you do for a day job? He's like, what do you mean? She goes, well, the show starts at seven and goes for half an hour.

She thought they would turn up and do it live, run around this cul-de-sac where it was set, just from house to house, have a little breather and a cup of tea during the ad break. But during the day, he could have a whole other career. That's hilarious. I'm obsessed with that movie he did years ago called Ravenous. Oh, yeah, Ravenous.

I'm kind of obsessed with it. I put it on the show for a while, but now I've watched it a couple of times recently, and I'm like, oh, my God. It's kind of obsessed with it. I put it on the shelf for a while, but now I've watched it a couple times recently, and I'm like, oh, my God. It's a female director, isn't it? Yeah. I don't know who it was, but Jesus. It's a real...

It's satire, and I think it was mislabeled and misrepresented to not be one of the great satirical movies about the expansion, the westward expansion. I mean, it's all about that, you know,

and the device of it is horror, but it's satire, you know. He's been a very interesting movies guy. He seems like

an interesting guy. I just love him. Well, good talking to you, man. I don't want to hold you up. You probably got other shit to do,

right? Just going to get vomited on. Kids. Oh, it's kids now? Yeah. Everyone's here?

All right, buddy. Well, I hope it gets a good response to the movie, and I'm a real fan of the work. Thanks, man. Thank you. There you go. Those Australians, man. Something in the water.

I don't know. The Boys in the Boat is in theaters now. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Folks, on Thursday, Greta Gerwig is back on the show, mostly to talk about the crazy year she had as the director of Barbie. If you want to hear the first time Greta was on,

you can check out episode 869 right now. It was a different time. In a way, I feel like so much of filmmaking, if you've written it and you've directed it, it has to make sense to you. Because there's no other reason to make it. I mean, it has to fit your weird need in some way and and because that that's the hunch that everybody else is going off of uh that's the thing that everyone else is bringing their talents to and collaborating it with collaborating with and even the the the structure of the movie and certain things that if people said oh does it need to be this way one of the movie and certain things that if people said, oh, does it need to be this way?

One of the good reasons about like putting together a movie is it forces you to consider everything because it's all takes time and money. And do you really need it? And you get very real with yourself very fast about what you need. Sure. You got, yeah. For a budgetary reason, you got to get lean. Yeah.

And then, but then what's great about it is you realize that the things that matter, that you need, that you absolutely need, you'll probably develop more intellectualized reasons for later. But in the moment, you just know you need them. And you don't question it. Right. Because if you start questioning it, then it all goes out the window. Because I'm not making movies about, you know, it's not a, I'm not making a crime caper. It's not like I need to know this information to know how they broke into the safe. Yeah.

It's more subtle than that. But if I lose track of it, then we're all lost because there's no reason to make this anything. Yeah, then it's just darkness and hopelessness. Yeah. Thank God. Why is there something rather than nothing? You don't want to live there. No.

That's episode 869 with Greta Gerwig available right now in our free podcast feed. Just use whatever app you're using to listen to this episode. If you want every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for WTF Plus. Just click on the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Okay. Okay. How about some blues? My style mark style blues how about that how about it Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to go. boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere