WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1502 - Greta Gerwig

Episode Date: January 11, 2024

The last time Greta Gerwig was on WTF, she had just directed her first solo feature, the independent film Lady Bird. Now she returns after directing and co-writing the biggest movie of 2023, Barbie. Greta talks with Marc about everything that went into making it, including the costumes, the production design, the performances, the comedy, the music and the personal vision she set out to communicate within the contours of a $140 million summer blockbuster. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Every veteran has a story. Whatever your next chapter, get support with health, education, finance and more. At veterans.gc.ca slash services. A message from the Government of Canada. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year.

Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need. And policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Lock the gates! soon go to zensurance and fill out a quote zensurance mind your business all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks What the fuck, Adelics? What's happening? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. If you're new here, I don't know, just hang out, listen. You can talk if you want. I welcome that. Yeah, anything you want to say during this broadcast, feel free.

Feel free to engage like you want to say during this broadcast, feel free. Feel free to engage, like you want to try it. What's going on? Okay, so are you excited about that thing you got going? Oh, that's good. Did that other thing work out? Ah, well, you know, you try again, right? You don't have to put all your eggs in one basket. How about, how's your friend doing? Did that, did that resolve itself? Oh, that's cool. All right. Did you get that thing done for the car? Okay. How about for the bike? Did you get that thing done for the bike? Did you renew that thing? All right, good. See how this works? done for the bike. Did you renew that thing? All right, good. See how this works? That's the only time we're going to have that conversation, but if it initiates anything, it's a dialogue.

And that's really what we're trying to do here is initiate a dialogue. Holy shit. What an insane 24 hours it's been. I can't even begin to tell you. Actually, the last few days, I don't think I've talked to you, what, since Monday? and I recorded that on Sundays before the Golden Globes and I just want you to know you know right out of the gate here because I didn't really talk about it uh before that um I I didn't go and I boycotted the Golden Globes I was not going to go to that and I didn't allow them uh to nominate me either you know I put my foot down I mean I didn't allow them to nominate me either. You know, I put my foot down. I mean, I didn't tell anybody, but I said to myself, one, I'm not going to the Golden Globes. And two, don't even think about nominating my special from Bleak to Dark, which was arguably,

and I'm not one to toot my own horn in this particular way, arguably the best special of 2023. But I don't want you to even think about nominating it. So that came to pass. They took me to heart and I didn't go. I didn't even watch it in real time. But after all this flack that Joe Coy got, it was like, what the fuck could have happened? I mean, I know Joe.

He's been on this show. He's a real deal. He's a comic. You know, a true comic, a guy that's done the stuff, paid the dues, built the audience knows how to do it. And he got, boy, did he get piled on? Holy shit. All right. We'll deal with that. I'll, I'll talk about that in a second. Cause I had to go back. Like, I didn't even watch it in real time. And I'm like, I got to go like see this. I mean, as a comic, how fucking terrible was this poor guy?

Jesus Christ. OK, wait, I'll talk about that in a minute. Greta Gerwig is back. She was on the show in 2017 when she directed her first solo feature. That was Lady Bird. But since then, she wrote and directed Little Women. And then last year, obviously, she was the director and co-writer of the biggest movie of the year. Barbie went on to make one and a half billion dollars. Now, look, I'm not one to judge winning or artistic merit in terms of box office. I'm not one to interpret what is good based on ticket sales, because in my experience, as somebody who takes in stuff, both marginal and mainstream. I found that some of the most impactful stuff that I've ever experienced art-wise, theater-wise, comedy-wise, film-wise was marginal, off the radar.

Genius. Not for everybody because on some level it confronts something. Though Barbie did all that. I am a big champion of the movie Barbie. I've been one since I saw it. And now I've seen it three times. My experience with it was I didn't know what to do with it. Some of you have heard me talk about it, but I did not know what to do with it. I was overwhelmed with emotion because of the humor, the color, the sort of, uh, the voice of it, the female presence of mind throughout it. And, and the actual basically, you know, for most people, relatively radical ideology of the movie shouldn't be radical, but it kind of was, it's a radical fucking movie in a very

great way. And I've watched it three times without getting bored of it. There were jokes I missed. I talked to Greta today and she brought up something I kind of missed. And we also talked about the reality of both of these movies, Oppenheimer and Barbie, being fundamentally Jewish in origin, which is interesting. They are both Jewish movies, which is beautiful. Oppenheimer, obviously a Jew, and one of the intents of creating the bomb was to push back against Hitler. That came to pass and it was used other, well, and the reality exists, but it was from a fundamental fury of Americans and Jews. Oppenheimer was a Jew and the creator of Barbie was a Jewish woman who created this.

This ideal for a reason that got a bit obfuscated over time and then was a reththunk by Greta and Noah Bombach, her husband. But fundamentally Jewish at the core. Yeah, both the nuclear fission core and the creating of a doll of a woman as opposed to a baby. My 2024 tour kicks off this month in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows. Then I'm in San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd. Portland, Maine, I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts, outside Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th.

Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater on Wednesday, April 3rd. Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th, Chicago at the Vic Theater on Friday, April 5th in Minneapolis. I'm at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets. I guess I got to push those out. I have to push those out into the platform world. So the Joe Coy thing now, look, I, you know, I'm coming at this as a comic and you know, I, I'm no stranger to enjoying schadenfreude, but this guy didn't deserve it. And it, look, whenever it doesn't matter when he took the gig or how soon he got the gig to host

the globes. And you know, honestly, the globes are a sham. They don't fucking matter much anyways, though. I do like seeing a room full of celebrity still but i don't know even that's gotten tired i don't know what's going on with me it must be an age thing but i'm slowly drifting out of the the cycle of uh giving a shit about this stuff but apparently nobody wanted to host that thing literally nobody and joe stepped in the few things that i noticed in terms of like the ridiculous amount of shit this guy took for a show that stinks anyways, for a show that is really, you know, a, an invalid judge of anything anymore and has had its own problems, but they do still generate publicity, which is really what drives this goddamn culture and world,

whether it's self publicity or, uh, industry publicity or whatever. You get what I'm saying? It's all pushing it into your brain. How do we push this shit into your brain? Is it entertaining? So Joe, Joe Coy takes this gig and it's a nice paying gig and he's a comic. He's seasoned. He knows what the fuck he's doing, but nobody really knows who Joe Coy is. I mean, he does fine out there. You know, he's a big comic, sells a lot of tickets, has a community around him. The Asian community as well has been successful for many years, but not a household name. I would say most people don't know who he is.

So right away, that's jarring. He comes out and a lot of people in that room and otherwise they're like who is this guy but he's a real deal but people he doesn't have the gravitas because he doesn't have the brand recognition of your usual one of the people that host that thing and gerard carmichael did it a few years ago he was not a huge act either and he didn't do a great job either but he did not do the job Joe Coy did. I mean, Gerard chose to make a statement about race and himself in the midst of that room, which I respect the personal angle, the vulnerable angle, the honest angle. I'll take it.

But Joe just get up there. Joe Coy gets up there and just does jokes that, you know, a couple of he wrote, some of his writers wrote, you know, you get a writer's room together, you knock that shit out, but he just did the job, but it wasn't going well, I guess, but I watched it. It didn't go as bad as I thought, not from the way it was written. There were people laughing. I don't think they sweetened it, you know, after the fact, but you know, a lot of the jokes didn't land, but they usually don't. I think the primary issue with Joe was that not enough people knew who he was. So they decided to fucking shit on him. Who is this guy?

Why him? Well, he's completely capable of the job. But the other thing I know, the reason that he, I think, got the flack that he did is he does not come from the class of people that that determine what the entertainment business is. That was it was who is this guy like as if he had just gotten off a week at the Irvine Improv. He might have and stepped into the into the stage. He I think he got flack because they were like, fuck this guy. Who is he really? Because the jokes were fine. I've seen plenty of golden globe jokes that were worse than his and better. You know,

I just don't think, I think it was a recognition and gravitas issue. And I also know what it's like to bomb period and to bomb on television. It's horrendous. And you either handle it two ways. This may be the one skill set he didn't have, and I certainly don't have it, is just sucking it up and bombing and realize that you're playing for the cameras. The hardest thing about hosting, I watched Patton Oswalt do it at the Independent Spirit Awards, is that you're not going to kill. There's no fucking way to kill. And you got to realize that going in. There's no killing. And you're doing this.

And you have to maintain. Keep your face. Keep your stature. Stay grounded. killing and you're doing this and you have to maintain, keep your face, keep your stature, stay grounded, act like you're doing well, play to the camera, even though it sucks. There's a ceiling to the response you're going to get really. But I've bombed. Go find that, you know, kicking Aspen. Wow. For Comedy Central, shot at the Aspen Comedy Festival. Tanked. The Chevy Chase roast, which they sweetened tanked. I mean, it's going to be embarrassing like you, cause I saw it. I saw Joe doing it. I saw him starting to laugh at his own jokes. I saw him starting to throw the writers

under the bus. I saw him starting to diminish the gig. And these are all comic things. These are fuck you things that a comic does when the fucking plane is going down. And he did those things. I'm like, it's all right, buddy. It's like when Gus Grissom screwed the pooch, you know,

Sam Shepard and the right stuff is Chuck Yeager. Oh, Gus, he did. All right. Oh, Gus, he did.

All right. Oh, Joe did. Okay. Oh, Joe, he did. All right.

He did. All right. I had to do Largo the other night. It was my show at Largo. And the plan was Laurie Kilmartin, who I love, was going to open for me. And then Judd Apatow wanted to come down and try some jokes because he's hosting the DGA Awards. So he wanted to run his bits to see if they land, test the integrity of the jokes. So fine, you know, that's fine. So I get there and, oh, can Adam Sandler do a set?

What am I going to say? No. I always thought that guy was mad at me, but maybe he's not. I don't think he is. He's been very nice to me. We get along fine. But yeah, I'm like, yeah, sure.

You know, Adam, yeah, he can do a spot. And then like Bargatze's in town. So Nate, I see him at the comedy store the other night. He's very excited. He passed by the way. He's now a paid regular at the comedy store. And Nate Bargatze was thrilled that he finally got to park in the comedy store parking lot the other night. It was so funny. That guy's so funny. So Nate's coming by. Nate wants to do a spot. So now the show, my show is a Lori and then Judd and then Adam and then Nate and then me. Two arena acts. There was a different time, man, a different time in my life where that would have just fucked me up. But like, it was no problem. I was thrilled. I was thrilled to see everybody. I was happy that Sandler was doing a set on my show and he was funny. And I always liked watching Nate, but it really, it was, it took an hour to get them all on and off stage. And by the time I got up there, I, I said to the audience, I'm like, I guess it's, we're done, right? Do you, do you want to, should I even bother to do a set on my show? But I ended up doing like 45 an hour and it was all great, but it was just, it was such a,

up doing like 45 an hour and it was all great but it was just it was such a a kind of growth moment that i wasn't intimidated by at all and the audience held and that i didn't feel threatened in any way and i and i was actually happy to see everybody and it felt like uh i don't know i had a good time is that okay but like there was a time i guess i'm saying where i would have fucked my brain up like how the fuck am i gonna follow these guys these fucking arena acts what the fuck am i gonna do i didn't why did i say yes man now i gotta fucking follow that god damn it fuck nope did not happen everybody had a good time everybody had a good set all right so look greta gerwig is here barbie is now streaming on max and available to rent or own on digital on demand platforms.

It's always fun to see her. She's very, um, engaged and exciting. And, uh, she's, I,

I love the way she thinks. I was just happy to see her. I don't know what's happening. Am I, am I feeling better? What is happening? Anyway, this is me,

uh, talking to, uh, Greta Gerwig. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need.

That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need. And policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

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That's good. Yeah. Psychologically, it does feel like you're doing something else. Because of the size of the can? Yeah. Like you're drinking a 40? Yeah. Like you're...

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's why the kids like it. I've talked to parents and they're like, their kids can hang around and drink something that looks menacing. Yeah. It seems... Nicotine. You need nicotine?

I was off nicotine for like three years. Oh, wow. All of it. Yeah, it seems. Nicotine. You need nicotine? I was off nicotine for like three years. All of it. Yeah. And then some guy got me, we're in Canada. Some guy talked me into smoking some fancy cigars because it's good nicotine. I've never smoked a cigar, I have to say. Yeah, I don't do it in a bro way. I do it in sit on my porch and get nauseous and sweat myself way. Yeah. No, I think I associate it with being nauseous. Because my grandfather used to smoke. He used to smoke a pipe and he used to smoke cigars. And I remember feeling sick all the time around it.

Oh, really? Just by secondhand stuff? Yeah. Wow. I used to, he would, his friends, they used to play cards and I used to fill their drinks and empty the ashtrays. Yeah. Wow. I used to, he would, his friends, they used to play cards and I used to fill their drinks and empty the ashtrays. Yeah. This is your grandfather? Yeah, my grandfather, my mom's dad, Ralph.

Ralph? Ralph. Ralph what? Ralph Sauer. S-A-U-E-R. Yeah? Yeah. He was like, he'd been in the Navy, so all of his friends in the Navy.

And they'd sit around in the den? Yep, yeah. And they'd sit around and just play bridge, play cribbage, if there's just two of them. My grandparents had a night for the boys playing poker and then another night for the ladies playing mahjong. Yes, that sounds right. Yeah. They would do, yeah, we were a big cards family. Lots of cards.

Always? Yeah. But you had all these old Navy dudes smoking the cigars and pipes and cigarettes. Yeah, that's right. Drinking the scotch. Drinking scotch. In my memory, they were all named Perry. Perry?

Yeah. Well, no, not really. But Perry is a name. Oh, what are the names? Oh, there was my grandfather, Jack. Mm-hmm. Then there was Joe Suskind. Joe Suskind.

Yeah. Gert Eisenberg. Mm-hmm. For Gerson. Yeah, Gert. That's a good one. There was Perry, Vic. Vic.

Vic was his brother. There was, you know, it was just like a- Yours sounds like a non-Jewish circle. No, this was Northern California. Like, these were Dust Bowl. Yeah. Dust Bowl to California people. I got a Joseph, a Jacob, a Gerson.

That's good. Oh, what's the other guys? Sheinholtz. Yeah. Yes. Full Jew. My son's name is, one of my son's names, well, my son's names are Harold and Isidore, which are- That's power Jews.

Well, those are from Noah's family. I love those names. Isidore's good. Is he Izzy or no? He's sometimes Izzy, sometimes Isidore, but he's- Harold. Harold. That one comes with some baggage, I think. For you? No, just because it's not a common name and it's not when you meet a Harold.

Yes. It's sort of like, wow, a Harold. Harold. I know. I know. And he is a full Harold. But it was, I think a lot of people actually, to me, a lot of people say their grandfathers were named Harold. Yeah.

Yeah, people say, oh, my God. It's definitely an old-timey name. Yes. Right? I love it. I love their names. Of course I do. Now, what are you doing about the Jewish thing?

In terms of if I were raising them with religion? Yeah. Well, actually, that's kind of a thing that's, we're kind of still, they're still quite young. How old are they? Well, four and a half and nine months. It's something that, I think it's, I mean, what we're sort of doing right now is that

we're kind of trying to honor all the traditions. Yeah. Because I think it's a nice. All of them being what? I mean, what we're sort of doing right now is that we're kind of trying to honor all the traditions. Yeah. Because I think it's a nice... All of them being what? Well, I was raised Christian, but very Unitarian Universalist and then Methodist, but very liberal Christian. But yeah, I think it's nice to have traditions. Sure. Christian. But yeah, I think it's nice to have traditions and it's nice to have a sense of identity of where you come from, but I also don't want to present anything that feels

constricting or guilt creating. Yeah, let's just let life do that. Yeah, you know, I mean, but I also think it's nice. And I also think, I feel like I was not raised Catholic, even though I went to Catholic high school. And I think actually getting the full religious education, it actually ended up being extremely useful also just in terms of literature and stories and references. And you're like, oh, I have a kind of a base for what this is. The canon. Yeah, the canon, such as it is.

Is Noah full Jew? He's half, but identified. You're carrying around that name. You're going to identify. Yes. But he, I think for his family, which he's talked about, also art is very much a religion. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's a big kind of, which I sort of have come to understand more fully. Yeah, well, what was that movie he did? The Meyerowitz? Yeah. Yeah, that was. That's a good movie. That is, I think in a way, it's something that I realized how deep that ran, even after it was over. It was like a, yeah.

Well, you know, what exactly? Well, I mean, actually when he made it, his father was still alive. And then when his father died, they had a very beautiful ceremony and everyone spoke about him. But it felt, it was actually one of the most amazing memorial services I've ever been to because it was extremely honest. But also, it was a lot of different perspectives on one person. And like that, it was wonderful that way. Balanced. Like and now for the other side.

Well, it was, I mean, it was kind of like, you know, he had, there were friends speaking, brothers speaking, sons speaking, daughters speaking. It was in it. And it was like, oh, you know, people are complicated and complex and obviously, but also it was nice to see that all represented. And obviously, but also it was nice to see that all represented. But also just the kind of relationship with art because the original Harold was Noah's father's father and he was a painter. Because, you know, if you were a painter, we have a lot of Harold Baumbach's paintings in our house. And there's something sort of amazing about having the art that someone made and yeah and it was it's and it's important that but that's the weird thing about people who are committed to art at a certain level yeah where it's not decorative yes but it's meaningful yes yes In in in with all the education and and kind of risks that they're going to take as an artist.

If it's infused with that. Yeah. Doesn't matter how big the artist is. You can feel like, you know, this was life or death shit. Yes, it is. It was. And it was very much for him. It was his. Right. I i mean i never knew him um but i did you know i know from his family what it you know what it felt like and then um and then uh jonathan noah's dad was a writer right yeah and it was that same level of you know seriousness and um the importance of art and and the relationship to it and the are you doing it or are you not doing it and how hard is it for you? And I don't think I really understood it deeply that day of like how much everyone in this family thinks about this.

Did it have an impact on you? Did it have an impact on you? I mean, I guess in a way because it was, I think, I mean, I don't know if this counts as an impact, but I didn't have that same, there wasn't like heaviness around art in the same way. Right. Take up or not take up. But it was part of my life growing up. And it was something that I engaged in. But it was always felt more, it wasn't everything. It was playful more. But I mean, you approach film, you know, with a, I mean, you're making decisions. Yes.

Yes. I mean, you obviously are a student of film. Yes. Yes. I mean, you, I mean, you obviously are a student of film. Yes. No, I am. And I've definitely, it matters a great deal to me. Yeah. But you approach it differently. But I don't think it was something that I came, I don't feel like to the manner born of art, really. Sorry, I really am burping. But, like, it really hits you out of nowhere. But I have this moment when my Harold looks up at a painting that Harold Baumbach did. We have a painting of women in Brooklyn. And he's looking at them. And I'm like, that's, in a way, it's exciting for me.

And I'm like, that was your great-grandfather. He was a painter. I don't know. Maybe you'll be a painter. There's a sort of relationship with it. And then, of course, as he gets older, he'll be able to read his grandfather's short stories. Interesting. Maybe.

Maybe. Maybe. You know, because like my buddy, you know, Lipsight. Do you know Sam? Yeah. Like, I mean, I ask if his kids read his books. He's like, no. No? No.

Yeah, that's true. It's a very odd thing. But maybe it's easier to engage with grandfathers or great grandfathers than it is with your parents. Maybe. Because you know your parents. Yeah. Right. And they're just your parents.

And they're your parents. And you kind of are like, I don't want to know what your interior life is. Maybe. Because you know your parents. Yeah. Right. And they're just your parents. And they're your parents. And you kind of are like, I don't want to know what your interior life is. Yeah. It's not that interesting. Or else it's just you don't look at them that way at all. Because I think that his kid read some stuff and was pretty impressed. Yeah. Like knew his dad was a real deal, but still didn't want to go into all of it.

Right. But like in the movies, though, I mean, you're making choices of different types, you know, in terms of how a movie looks, what you're shooting with. Yes, of course. When the last time I talked to you, it was for Lady Bird. Yes. And then I ran into you, I think, at the Indie Spirit Awards when you were there with Little Women.

I was not. I was there sort of as a, I think Noah was there with Marriage Story. I was there sort of as a, I think Noah was there with Marriage Story and I was there as a guest. But yes, that was my year of Little Women. That's right. And now Barbie is like completely different approaches to all of it.

And Frances Ha is totally different. Yes, yes, they're all different. So you're evolving and making choices. Yeah, well, I mean, I think, I kind of think of them as their own. Obviously, they're connected. But I think I try to take every movie as its own universe that wants to be articulated in a different way. So I try.

I think the thing I wish most for as a filmmaker is that I see with new eyes. Every time? Yeah. And also just the world. Like, I hope that I'm able to conceive of something in a way that feels new or a way to look at a space even differently. And that's something that's evolving constantly for me. But I always say, I think that's my most ardent hope

is that I continue to see with new eyes and then find a way to capture that. But in the middle of all this cyclone of attention, I haven't read a lot of the interview. Are you tired of it, the interviewing? No, no. I feel like I only do this every you know

three years it's not that crazy you know you like and also i get to um the nice thing about all of it is you know i i get to talk to other directors i get to see people i get to be part of the community of filmmakers and that's that's all wonderful it's interesting it's a small it's it's a smaller community than you'd think i know i know it it does it feels like a uh it feels like a school yeah because like i like i'll talk to james gray occasionally yeah and they're and the directors are always doing things and i'm like oh my god and then you realize like oh there's not that many of you no you're not actors you're directors so you kind of all know each other a little bit yeah yeah and then and then it's sort of exciting.

Like this year, it's like, I've always loved Todd Haynes. And now I get to hang out with Todd Haynes. He's a good guy. And that's exciting. Yeah. And so, yeah. I mean, if I had to do this level all the time, I think it would feel exhausting. But it's only every so often.

And how are you feeling about, like, I guess my question is, because I had a very particular reaction to the movie. I think there's a couple of things that I want to share, but are you feeling in any broad way that something isn't being addressed about the film? Gosh, yeah, I don't know. I don't, I mean the film? Gosh, yeah. I don't know.

I don't... I mean, to be honest, I... Well, my feeling is that the sort of like... The film taken as a whole is being read with lots of different lenses, which is actually only exciting. And I don't think... I had the other night in New York, I talked to Tony Kushner.

Sure. And that was amazing. And he had such a specific lens on it. Yeah, what was his take? Oh, I mean, he had like fascinating things to say. He was talking about how products and capitalism and how stasis is part of it. Like you're not supposed to change at all. And that there's this dialogue about change, but not changing is you know kind of successful for a

brand but it's also death which is why when barbie gets back into the box it's a coffin yeah and i thought that's a brilliant reading like i mean like i don't of course he's going to take the the communist uh interpretation but it was the most marvelous conversation. And I felt like it was so sort of like his certain reads on it were like just it was so I mean, I would say I love Tony Kushner. And so so I think so smart that those kinds of things are just great. Yeah, that's so interesting because Because they're beyond your intention necessarily. Yeah, or my intention that some part of that wasn't my intention, but then they kind of picked it up and made it even bigger. Well, yeah.

Well, I mean, clearly the box, once the shackles were going down, she pulls out of it and that there was no future in the box other than a return. Exactly. So I can see that. Yeah. But, you know, on a story level, you know, you knew what was up. But, you know, to sort of put it in the context of brand inconsistency and repetition. Right. And also, I don't know.

I mean, I did know in that scene that, I mean, there's so many lines, but there's the way Will Ferrell says, we'd love it if you could just get into that giant box. And he kind of looks a little sheepish about it, but also is asking. And then, you know, he's telling Barbie to get in the box, but he's also telling Margot Robbie to get back in the box. There's some like layer of meaning that it's like funny and strange. And I don't know. I mean, I guess I really believe, I don't know if you think this, but I think, I don't believe in like there's a meaning of a thing that's static and that that's what it is. I think it is down to people and their own bringing it to. If something's to sort of keep speaking

as a piece of art, it has to be sort of fluid in terms of its interpretation, right? I mean, I kind of say that a lot, where it's something that'll grow with you if it holds. And you can kind of keep reading into it. Or letting it

reflect who you are as you get older. Right. And I also think on, I mean, this sounds, I mean, I very much, you know, I wrote this movie with Noah and I directed it and I do feel, you know, a sense of authorship. But also, in another way, I feel like none of it's mine anyway. I don't know where it comes from. Yeah, I get that. So I also feel this sense of it's mine anyway. I don't know where it comes from. Yeah, I get that. So I also feel this sense of it was never mine to begin with.

Right. It just, I... You kind of wrestled it out of the air? That's what it feels, or I like let it come through me somehow. Yeah, sure. Were you aware, like, in its conception or when you were shooting, the size of the thing? Well, I knew that the budget that we had was big enough that I, you know,

I had to believe in it to a point because you don't, you certainly don't want to ask for more than is responsible. Not until the next movie. Yeah, there's going to be one where it's like, I need, I'm going to do something. Don't you know who I am and what i did for this business no no i think um it's but i but i did i thought oh i i think this what was the budget the budget was like 140 was like a lot that's big yeah yeah it was a lot did you feel like oh my god that's a lot of money well i guess i felt uh there was sort of like an you know i i wrote the script our um producer and line producer michael sharp did a

budget yeah and the budget came in much higher than that and i said well that's i can't do that and then well we sort of looked at it and and then i kind of it felt like a lot of money and felt like too much money in a way but i also then I started looking at what other productions cost and started looking at other budgets. And I was like, well, I guess this is kind of the zone of this kind of thing. And it's not even at the high end of it. Right. Like that this is sort of, this is where these things tend to live. And actually it would have been pretty impossible.

I mean, you know, it's, you always want to be able to make things for less. But that's a big number. And so I knew it had some weight on it of like, well, it needs to work in a certain degree. But I didn't. But this was the way it worked was sort of beyond what I could have imagined. But I did. You know, I was scared. I was scared that it worked was sort of beyond what I could have imagined. But I did. You know, I was I was scared. I was scared that it wouldn't work.

But I also thought, you know, it's it's one of those things like you kind of just got to go for it because other I mean, there's a way we're going to hide. It's a Barbie movie. Like, yeah. And also, I mean, you must have put a hell of a team together to kind of manifest that vision. Yes. To put a hell of a team together to kind of manifest that vision. Yes. I mean, I think that the, I don't think people talk or think enough about that delegating of jobs.

Yes. I mean, it was, it was really the people who came together to make it were my first dream choice people. I had worked with Jacqueline Durand before who did the costumes on Little Women so I knew I wanted her to do the costumes. Isn't that amazing about costume people? Like Little Women a period piece and you're like this is what we're doing now. I just knew she could. I just knew she could do

something extraordinary. Did she create the palette? Well yes but it was a kind of she, so her and then Sarah Greenwood, who was the production designer, they had actually worked together on different things before, so they knew each other.

And there was a very close connection. And then Rodrigo Prieto was a cinematographer, and I had wanted to work with Rodrigo for I don't know, ever. What's he done? Well, he just shot Killers of the Flower Moon also. These people have range. Yes.

And he actually, he just, we talked before he shot Killers of the Flower Moon. So we talked, we discussed lots of things. And he was like, okay, I got to go. And I'm going to, you know, and I'll see you on the other end of it. And so then he went and shot that, you know, for months. And then he came out and then all of a sudden he was available. And then he went. It couldn't be two more different movies.

Yeah. But it was, we were all building this out of nothing. I mean, there was a sense of like everything was a problem that had to be solved. Nothing was obvious. Everything had to be designed and executed and thought through and everything from what are all the color palettes of all of the costumes and the sets and everything. But also like, how are we even doing this? Like if everything is taking place inside of sound stages, which it was, and I wanted it to feel like it was in sound stages. Gives you a lot more control too, right? Yes, but also it's all invention. Nothing falls off the truck. It's all, you have to, you know, what is it?

Well, if there's no water, what are these waves? And what do they look like? And they're these sort of sculptures. everything was to be, to be learned. And that was when I think of the pre-production period, it was, I mean, the official pre-production period was like, it was like six months,

but, but then we had started talking about it like a year earlier and like started, um, you had the script that early. I had had the, I had the script in the fall of 20, the fall winter of 2020.

And then in the beginning of 2021, I started, I knew I had people because I remember I made, I'd never done this before. I made a green light presentation, like, you know, where you tell people. Yeah, and everything. And I'm just talking it all through. And I had, I knew I had Sarah, Rodrigo, and Jacqueline. Yeah. And I had Margo and Ryan. Oh, so where do you do that presentation?

I did it on Zoom. To who? Warner? Yeah, everyone at the Warner's people. Yeah. So it was like, there was like 20 people on the Zoom. Wow. Actually, I made a movie. or i made like a little movie pitch

a movie pitch yeah um i did it with my editor nick who i who we who i've worked with on every movie i've done and i actually remember they said no no that we don't do it this way this is not you have to do like a powerpoint and then talk And I just thought, no, that's going to be boring, I think. I'm going to make something. I'll just make this. I'll hit all the things we're supposed to make, but let me like make this. And talk as well. And I talked while, you know, we made this video that had everything

and we talked through different scenes and we talked through how I wanted it to look. And at that point I already had like, you know, all of the references from the soundstage musicals and the way I wanted it to feel so that, you know, and I tried to answer questions that came up all the time, because like, the first question was always like, are they going to walk like plastic dolls? And it's like, no, no, like it was, I sort of asked and answered questions that we've gotten and like, we will not be CGI-ing all the feet. But I did that. And then actually, I remember with that video, too, my stepson, he's 13 and a half now.

But I showed it. He was 10 turning 11. Yeah. And I showed him the pitch video and I was like, what do you think? And he said, I'd watch that movie. And I was like, well, if he thinks he'd watch it i don't know that's pretty good he's just a and he doesn't like like he's not interested he's not interested just because it's uh like he if anything it's the opposite he's um if it's engaging he was engaged

he was like he was like this looks funny he's not he's not old enough to be culturally indoctrinated with cynicism no not yet no but he was but he was pretty wide open yeah he was like no this looks hilarious like i want to see this and i remember i also i show him lots of stuff because i think he's he's really smart and he's really funny and i remember i showed him like the first we had like the teaser trailer but then we had like a sort of like the second teaser yeah which had like the hi barbie say kens and i was like what do you think of this and he was like i i he was like that's funny i like it and i said why and he said that's exactly the kind of stupid stuff i'd

expect barbies to do but like he's like they just say hi to each other all day like yeah and i was like oh that's that's good. Right? Yeah. But I'm always interested in like, I always talk to him about like, why do you like this? Why do you like that? Whatever it is. Anything like movies. Well, it's funny because the jokes, the humor of it, you know, works on a lot of levels, but it's not, it's clearly not like humor written to like a lot of children's movies

where they're like, we're going to, you know, it's a kid's movie, but we're going to put some jokes in for the grown up. Yes, yes. I know that. Yeah. So, but it's not like that because all of the humor

is pretty well integrated because it speaks to on some level, certainly with the men in the movie, it speaks to an emotional immaturity that goes from age five

to the end of life. Well, you put, you know, girls with equal opportunity can also be quite emotionally immature. Well, I think it does that as well. But it's interesting that there is sort of a universality of the parts of us that remain somewhat immature. Yes, I think that's true. I also think there's something um because also so i think in pre-production or something yeah it's sort of like a rule of some

like comedy doesn't travel well like internationally especially language specific or like sure specific jokes yeah yeah and so you know there was this discussion about it but i always thought of it as being because i thought of it as like some strange combination of lots of different things i always thought of it as being there was like an element of it where it was physical it was like it was like you don't i mean you can understand you can understand what this is and you know obviously i love like um charlotte Chaplin and Buster Keaton and Harold Lloyd. And I actually, I remember going to see it when Rumor was really little and we watched Safety Last. Yeah.

Was that Buster? No, that's Harold Lloyd. The one on the clock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the kids in the audience, and these are kids, you know, they have all the things that are, you know, all the movies that we have now. Yeah. They were screaming with laughter. Yeah.

They couldn't believe, they thought, and they couldn't read, they couldn't read the interstitial things. But they could not, they thought it was so funny. Like the thing of even like, he's tied the thing, but he doesn't realize that it's going to come undone. And now he's going to go out the window. Like they were just like, they were so excited. And I thought on some level, we actually haven't figured out something more entertaining than this. Like no one has figured out how to entertain children more than this. Actually in the pandemic, we watched a bunch of the buster keaton shorts like they're not even the

full or not i mean the charlie chaplin shorts yeah they're not even the full ones i think they were all like on criteria i think so yeah hilarious like we're just like laughing uncontrollably and i i thought i don't know. It's not that there's so much of it in Barbie, but I felt like kind of some of that stuff sort of became part of it. There's definitely a slapstick to it. Yeah. In a lot of places. And also just like the way they, that was like part of using all these dancers in it too.

It was like even like with the Mattel Corporation. I wanted them all to be dancers because I wanted them to have that like it was in one of the charlie chaplin shorts he's like he's being chased by policemen and he runs and they do that thing where they turn the corner and they all kind of go a little too far and they all pile on each other and i like love the way that stuff looks and i kind of thought well let's see if we can. They were all dancers. And they all moved in this very wonderful way. Kind of as a unit. Anyway, that all goes in. Well, yeah.

But I think it all goes in in a big way. Because, well, my experience with the movie was the first time I saw it, I was overwhelmed. Emotionally. I have a thing about musicals. And I don't know if this is what you'd call it a musical. was the first time I saw it, I was overwhelmed emotionally. Like, I have a thing about musicals, and I don't know if this is what you'd call it a musical, but it's framed like a musical. It could have been a musical.

I mean, easily. Yeah, it's almost like it's half a musical. It wants to be a musical. Yeah, and sort of the unity of everything and the sort of the very specific vision of it. But I don't know what it is with me in terms of, you know, how emotional I got in a good way about just the way the women were talking. And I don't, I can't even like, because it's a very, it speaks to a very odd thing and a very sad thing about movies in general, is that you realize that in mainstream movies that there's not a lot of women talking in general.

Right. And so, but just the fact that there was this conceit that enabled them to talk, you know, plainly and curtly, but in a very emotional and intellectual way, was kind of amazing. It felt amazing on the set. I have to say, it was like small things that felt amazing. When we did even the scene with Margo and Ryan, and he asked to stay over, and she says, oh, but I don't want you here. And she just said it so, like she's not being mean. She's just saying exactly what she feels right and it it was so it was sort of amazing but because it

undermines the whole expectation because there is no sexuality no you know in a way because we all know that and you make reference to it maybe twice yeah that they don't have genitals no but but so so that interaction which is naturally loadeditals no but but so so that interaction which is naturally loaded with anything and all the baggage that anyone's going to bring to it yeah is able to have this honesty that's devoid of sexual expectation or manipulation also devoid of her needing to placate any ego yeah that there's no it wouldn't even occur to her right to to placate his ego like they're like oh no it's not it doesn't enter enter it at all but that's interesting because in those scenes you know the male ego more so is intact yes yes yes yeah right so so he you know

she doesn't acknowledge it or recognize it, but that's all they have. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. The Kens, the Kens are, it's funny, like actually, this is Ryan. From the very beginning, Noah and I, you know, wrote the part for him, but we didn't know him. And it was getting him the script and then saying like, no, no, we really wrote it for you. Like we wrote this for you. Really? He didn't believe you? Well, no, I think he did once he started reading it because his name is all over the script.

I mean, because we'd say Ken Ryan Gosling. But it's so funny because he's so, like, there's something about those Canadians sometimes. They're very funny. Oh, they're so funny. In a very specific way. It's a non-neurotic kind of presence that's true and and they're very good at at just isolating the funny and locking in ryan reynolds the same way yeah uh you know and it's not there's no kind of like uh though ken had to struggle with

self-awareness that the the comedic element of it is just pure. It's pure. And it's also based in, I think he takes it seriously, which is part of what made it funny. Which I had an instinct that he'd do, and then he did it so completely. And he said, I think the first time we talked on the phone, he said he found his daughters had barbies and then he said to himself i think they have a ken somewhere and then he found it like date you face face down in the mud next to a squished lemon and he's like this is ken no one cares about him and and and i was like it was just instantly like yes that's exactly's exactly right. So he got the emotional universe.

Right away. I also, I think, I like talking in movies. Like, I like a lot of talking. And I like acting. I like, you know, like, real acting and characters and talking. And I think it's like that. And I think it went with everything that was heightened about the movie. went with everything that was heightened about the movie was this kind of like um fast fast fast dialogue and and and and sort of over the top characters that somehow are more honest for it

um but that's really that i think that's the the the comedy of it right yes it's it it's it it is kind of ironic in a way yeah right yeah in in the sense that you have just out of nowhere women, you know, just addressing patriarchy. Which is this, you know, and it's just like that word, because I, you know,

I've talked to other people about the movie and I've talked to one woman in particular who was sort of like, well, you know, that was sort of feminism one-on-one.

I'm like, exactly. What else are you going to give the kids? Yes. Right, right, right. How did you want to go? Yeah. You know, it's like, well, you know, that was sort of feminism one-on-one. I'm like, exactly. What else are you going to give the kids? How did you want to go? It's like if you're a grown woman who's familiar with those feminist texts about patriarchy, however far they go, but the basics are the basics. Yes. Well, also I think that there was something about it where, I mean,

so much of the writing of it came out of this. I mean, it was, you know, Marga really, as a producer, you know, Noah and I were totally left alone to do what we wanted with it. And there were things like, I went to Mattel and I looked at everything and you sort of walk through, it's almost like the Hall of Fame with all these different Barbies. But I stopped in front of one and I realized there was like an all-female presidential ticket that was won. And I said, oh, Barbie's president. And they said, oh, yes, Barbie's been president since 1995. And I was like, that's different.

And I just thought, what a strange construction of this alternate universe to our own. So how many of those dolls were real? Well, I mean, it was like a combination of making things that were, you know, ours that belonged to our movie personally. And then also because Barbies existed since 1959, we wanted to sort of thread different specific dolls that are right. That if people care, care about it, like there's like peaches and cream Barbie and day to night Barbie. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's just like now i really know what

they are but like things like uh you know like isa ray as president barbie we we talked about like well she would wear a ball gown like but and it was part of this idea of like well what she that that why not yeah that would what she'd do and and one thing we were talking a lot about is almost like the psychology of um you know, because obviously it's about kids at play. But like, you know, six-year-old girls or seven-year-old girls. But this thing of when you watch six-year-old girls play dress up that they put everything on. They wear a tiara and a boa, like a feather boa and a tutu and the heels and gloves and a hat. Like it's everything.

They don't have a sense of like, oh no, this is now getting gaudy. They like the too muchness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I wanted everything to be too much. Yeah. And even with ideas, a part of it was like I wanted it to be anarchic and I wanted it to be packed with ideas and packed with things so that it almost did feel like overwhelming and too much. Because I was like, that's the aesthetic of Barbie.

It's not minimalism. It's maximalism. It's inherent in it. So anything that felt less than a sparkle Barbie mermaid riding a pony. It was like, it's gotta be totally bananas. So you just pushed it. Pushed it all the way. And it was like

sort of a whirly gig in a way. What was the core of the... watching it, because I enjoyed the one joke that killed me literally both times, because I didn't see it coming the first time. I'm going to play guitar at you.

Yeah, yeah. That was a good one. I love the way he says it, too. It just goes fast. Yeah, yeah. I'll play the guitar at you. For four hours? Yeah.

No, I... Yeah. No, yeah. And I liked also that there was clearly, there was a pretty broad spectrum of the types of humor based in stereotypes. Because there's so much of, with the guys anyways, you know, the idea of the guy who knows the godfather. I mean, that's not every guy. No. But that's a guy that you've encountered. No. But that's a guy that you've encountered.

But there are, even when they're all playing their musical instruments, there's this, like, once Kens take over, the spectrum of maleness was pretty hilarious. Because you were able, because even if you're not a guy from that hipster world or whatever, you know all those guys. Yeah. And I also thought they are receiving whatever this information is through some sort of terrible game of telephone. Like, he's seen something and brought this back, and now... The horses. Yeah, the horses. They're either, like, interpreting this, you know, one way or another. But, I mean, the specificity was also, like, extremely fun

because I thought, you know, there's things that are more accessible. Like, my brother and his sons are big car guys. And they love the Porsche joke. You know, they texted me right after. And they were like, love the Porsche joke. Car guys. But then like. I talked to a car guy last night.

Yeah. It's like a specific love. But then like, you know, the people who got the like Stephen Malcomus pavement joke, that's a... Which one's that? Oh, that's,

that's, it's, during the whole deprogramming thing, Shudy Gotwaza-Ken and talking to Emma Mackey is saying, Stephen Malcomus

really harnessed the acerbic talk singing of Lou Reed and with influences, with post-punk influences saying Stephen Malcomus really harnessed the acerbic talk singing of Lou Reed and with influences, with post-punk influences such as Wire and The Fall. How did that go by me? I don't know. It's really fast, but

I do know because I saw Pavement at Brooklyn Steel. Stephen Malcomus was, it was very exciting to meet him. I love Stephen Malcomus. I love Pavement. It's great. And they sound great right now. And he told me his daughter saw Barbie and thought, holy shit, like she heard her dad's name in Barbie. And I was like, I really fought for that joke because I was like, I know not everyone will know what this is. The people who know it and hear it won't be able to believe it.

But there was all these hipster Easter eggs in there. Yes, there are. And also just like nerdy Easter eggs. Yeah. But I kind of, again, it was like that maximalism, pack it in. Sure, why not? Yeah, because it's inclusive. But you kept it, the sort of the world is so big and it's so familiar.

And the fact that like I go to a movie theater and half the people are dressed in different versions of the colors. Yeah. And the Indigo Girls, they're movie theater and half the people are dressed in different versions of the colors. Yeah. And the Indigo Girls, they're so specific, but yet so common. But it's like the perfect choice. I know. That was written into the script. Yeah.

The Indigo Girls and Matchbox 20 were the two songs that were written into the script. And I mean, I have like sort of deep experiences with both of them. Of course. Because, you know, I always, I remember, you know, I think Push came out when I was in seventh grade. And I have a very clear memory of, you know, there were different radio stations in Sacramento that played, you know, top 40 hits. And there was like 107.9 to end, quad 106.5. Those were the two ones. And then there was 102.5. And there was just,

you'd switch between the stations looking for songs because, you know. Well, from the alt rock and the rock? Yeah, alt rock, rock, top 40, hip hop. Yeah, yeah. You'd go back and forth. What are you going to land on? Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, and I remember like that song was so huge and just like, I really loved it and listened to it again and again. And then I wasn't until later that I thought to myself, what is this song? What are these lyrics? But I was really like, you know, it's a real, it's a banger. And, but in any case, and I also felt the same way.

Indigo Girls wasn't on the radio. Right. But because I was raised, uh, I don't, I mean, this is true of a lot of people, but not just people raised like me, but because I was kind of like hippie Christian. Yeah. That was kind of in that feel. was kind of in that feel. But I think like what in talking to you about it now, what you realize is that somehow that movie, because the foundation is Barbie and it is sort of the beginning of something, it's a constant, right?

Yeah. So you create the world of Barbie, but somehow capture the entire cultural history of the last 40 or 50 years. Right. Well, that was the thing that I thought was so interesting about it as like a jumping off point to look at a lot of things, not didactically,

but almost as just like, what an interesting thing that this object has been a discussion, a point of discussion and argument and everything else. And I sort of had that feeling of like, you know, it's a doll a it's an object with it almost inherently doesn't have a have it it shouldn't have a character or a story because it's there to be projected onto

right and i i thought there was something so um funny and strange and human about this idea of like we're so advanced in a way yeah and then also we're still making dolls and getting mad at them yeah like that's such a how wonderfully medieval like of us yeah we're still having arguments about it okay did you watch ben shapiro destroy you i didn't but it's that that but that passion know, that thing of like, it's a doll. That was the best thing I ever saw. It was like, it was the perfect, you know, it was the perfect hilarious addendum to the movie was to see that worm, you know, lose his mind, you know, in that sort of dumb kind of Enceli border, just ridiculous way. But I have to say that

the flip side of it is like, and this is where so much of everything came from, was also like my mom, because I was born in 83, and my mom had a very, she didn't like Barbie because Barbie represented everything that was different than what her experience of feminism.

Sort of like, did we march for this? And now my daughter wants this. And then, of course, because it's something that is sort of looked at askance, it's something I want more. At a scant, it's something I want more. Yeah. You know, and then, and I thought, well, this is so great as a strange way to look at things. It's like from this angle, but then also it can include so much because everybody knows what Barbie is. Everybody knows what it is. But like, you know, because of what you said before that everybody's going to project onto it and has for decades.

Yes. That this sort of inanimate representation of a woman. Yes. Is just, it's explosive. It certainly is. And it's very, when we were sort of, you know, Noah wasn't sure we should, he didn't think this was, he wasn't sure about this. The whole thing? he didn't think this was he wasn't sure about this the whole thing well i i wanted i thought i i kind of had a feeling maybe i wanted to write this but he was he i mean he had the thing of like it's

what is there to write there's not there's no story there's no character and but that he so he had kind of a hesitation around it but then as i we started talking about it and then i started kind of bringing all these different things into it it was this kind of like it felt it could just hold a lot in a way that and even beyond the like what the ideas were the jokes were it was like it could hold a lot of music it could hold a lot a lot. And I've never made a movie that could hold quite as much. And it felt flexible in that way. It felt like it gave me permission to do a lot of things that in another movie would feel too chaotic. big dance number, the big Ken dance number. That's why I love it. It's the best, right?

I love it. I love it. And I also, that was, I mean, the song is so great. And then, you know, Ryan is such a great singer and dancer. And it was emotional to shoot it. It was actually. Well, it's amazing. That's what makes musicals amazing.

You just want to cry with the, it's like what you're saying about the Keystone Cops, the fact that there's so many people acting in unison. I love it. Yeah, it's overwhelming. I find particularly, and I don't know, I also think a lot of men dancing always really gets me. Oh, yeah. There's something about it. Just giving it up.

Yeah. Just doing it. There's, it's very, I mean, I love women dancing too, but I guess because maybe dance is seen as not masculine or something, that when men are dancing, I just am so happy. Oh yeah, but it's amazing. I don't know when that happened because you watch the first 50 years of the history of movies. Yeah. Yes, tap dancing, dancing. Of course. Gene Kelly, Astaire, all of movies. Yeah. You know, even like... Yes. Tap dancing. Of course.

Gene Kelly, Astaire, all of them. I think about that all the time because it's not as if the musicals, which are surreal and beautiful and strange and those Vincent Minelli musicals, those were mainstream things and people went to them, not just women, not just children,

grown men. Yeah. And even the crooners. Like there's a certain point where, you know, you see Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin in their tuxedos singing with no instrument. Yes. And that was very manly. Exactly. And I think like how has this become not?

How would we lose that? Yeah, because I think there was a sort of, you know, I don't know, expansiveness. And that was also down to when, you know, we were shooting it was I had this feeling of, you know, it was such a joy. It really was. Well, I guess that's what I felt. It was a joy. The whole thing. I think that's what I felt.

And I'm not good at joy. It doesn't come easy for me. I try to stifle it whenever possible. So when it's, you know, unavoidable, like, I'm able to experience it, you know, with some context. Like, joy is not something my body generates naturally. So I guess your feeling throughout the entire process of putting that together. And I think that's exactly what it is, actually. That's what I was. I can't break it down to ideas or the talking and the women and the jokes about the dudes and the jokes about women, whatever.

But I think overall what you're saying makes sense to me that the whole thing was a joyful project. It was deeply. And it was also, you know, it was everyone who made it. You know, there's everyone who's on camera, but then the entire crew, and we shot mostly in London because we were shooting on these sound stages and there were these giant builds. And there was a whole miniatures department, which was incredible. But that also

makes it uh like theater it was like theater it was like theater so you have that kind of like this this this totally created environment where magic happens it was magical right and everyone felt part of it and the men it was you know women on the crew but there are a lot of men on the crew a lot of british men oh yeah and they're not necessarily the most... Emotive? No, but you would see them tapping their toes, singing along. And then Margot had this thing. She said, you know,

there was one day a week where you'd wear pink, and if you didn't wear pink, you'd get fined for charity. And the men couldn't wait to wear pink. They were like... It was like they'd been asked to do it and they were so excited. They had to do it, but they wanted to do it.

And then at the same time, because we were controlling, I don't know, we had, I think, seven stages at one point. Wow. And we had the miniatures department. But at the same time,

they were shooting on the same studio lot, was Fast and the Furious. And you'd see those those guys they kind of wander down and peek in and say like well what's going on over here and it was like this sort of so so in any case when people said oh i you know will men go see and i thought i think they're gonna like this more than you know and and also you know there's more expansiveness here than you know. And also, you know, there's more expansiveness here than you might guess. Well, yeah, it can. I think that it serves to open, like I said, to open men up in a way that has a context. And also, you know, they can sit in a theater wherever they're going to watch it

and, you know, let these feelings happen and just, you know, take whatever, you know, minor hits come and are deserved and funny and make you self-aware. But also, I think that's true. I think that a lot of men, myself included, you don't walk around waiting for that to happen. You don't live in it. But when it comes over you, either you're going to be like, what's happening? This is uncomfortable. Or you're going to like let it happen. Yeah. No, it's like a, I feel like now when I, you know, the sweatshirt he wears at the end, I am Knuff. I can't tell you how happy I am every time I see a man wearing the Knuff shirt.

I am Knuff. And it's also, yeah, I think that was, I think in that way, I had that sense of like, if this is what it feels like just here, maybe it does get out. Like maybe it does do the same thing that it's doing to us, to other people. It did. Clearly. That was the hope. But it was, yeah, it was. And it's so funny.

And it's so funny, like, I don't like and I don't want I really want to stress the fact that, you know, the comedic performances and also the the writing was so good. And like whether, you know, Ryan earnestly approached Ken or not, he knew he was being funny. Oh, no, he knew. And so did Margot. And obviously Kate and everybody. I mean, everybody. Yeah. And I'm actually was thinking Michael is another hilarious Canadian.

Totally. And he's, I mean, he, he, he was another one who we just like instantly clicked and instantly were, you know, we, we had a moment where we thought like, should Alan, should we give Alan something at the end that is happy for him? And then Michael, we sort of thought about it and he came up to me the next day. He said, no, Alan just has tragedy. Like for him, there is no, it would be false for Alan. And I was like, you're right. You're right. We have to respect Alan enough not to put a band-aid on something because he's so there's so much feet and it's funny but it's also like but i felt like everyone

who was making it that there was sort of this um we all were entered into the same agreement that nobody ever articulated but everybody understood yeah and you know i think you know margo was so extraordinary and i think even i mean i think this way about everybody in the movie but i always think her her performance is so um it's so deceptive because because because you think ah yes it's margo and she does this thing and she's funny but it's a totally constructed, heightened, comedic, external performance, which is a capital P performance. Yeah. And then what she does is she somehow, through the course of the movie, makes it transparent.

And then you see the human behind it. And I don't even know. I mean, I was there when she did it. But I also feel like I don't know how she did it. And she makes it look so effortless. But the fact that anyone is following this doll over the course of two hours and cares is extraordinary. Well, I guess the turn starts when things stop working out. Yes.

And I remember the first time when she's dancing and she said do you guys ever think about um dying yeah that's like like it was like for the first time she doesn't have an interior life but she also doesn't have any separation from her environment herself and her environment are continuous there is no difference and then all of a sudden in that moment she becomes separate from her environment and what that feels like for the first time yeah and um you see just fear on her face right and i i don't i don't know how she found it exactly because it's such a almost intellectual idea and she plays it and it's painful it's painful how long did it take you to refine the jokes um well we i mean we really we kind of work them and work them in

the scripts i mean um it took it's i mean it all sort of went together but yeah i mean we we we work those scripts um it's not uh it was it's not something that we sort of do um quickly yeah i think we really um that's the way no one i write together so we just revise revise revise you have to with the humor and then you do with the jokes you can also tell like often i find that in the first drafts you write, you'll do like almost, I don't know if you find this, but I find that I'll almost do like three rotations of essentially the same joke. Yeah. And then you're like, no, no, just pick one. Right. You know, like they're not.

Yeah, because there wasn't really a false beat, you know, in terms of the humor. I didn't see any. I think. The whole thing was pretty tight. I think it was... I think it is that sort of, like, process of that writing and rewriting and rewriting. How much...

How... Like, in the second feeling, and I felt it in the first one, but I didn't focus on it as much, but Rhea Perlman is kind of amazing. Oh, I love her. It was too... It was so...

Yeah. Like, that whole idea. How much did you get into the story of Ruth Handler? I did. I mean, I was very moved by the story of Ruth Handler. I mean, I think really what the story of her was was threaded throughout what the movie became. But also, I was just compelled by it i mean the she really did her insight was she watched her daughter playing with a baby doll

which was what was on the market right and her insight was my daughter doesn't really want to pretend to be a mother she wants to pretend to be an older girl. That's what she wants. So we need to give her something else to play with. And then in a sort of, you know, she's a really funny, interesting woman. She was like on Johnny Carson a lot. She's funny. And it was influenced by this German doll.

Yes, the sex doll. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, and also paper dolls, actually, because paper dolls, you could change their outfits to do different things. Yeah. The idea of Oppenheimer and Barbie being fundamentally Jewish movies. Inventors.

Yeah. Inventors. Yes. And one is the end of patriarchy and the world. Yes. And the other is the beginning of reinterpreting femininity. It's a very, I mean, it really is. That did actually occur to me at some point this summer.

And I thought, you know, I thought it was, I think you're maybe the first person to say it though to me. I thought it, but I was like. Two different kinds of explosions. I wonder if anybody else is... Both rooted in Jewish inventors. But one of the things that moved me about her is in the... Because Barbie was the first doll that had breasts.

That was actually a big deal. And then it was kind of scandalous. And there was a feeling of like, will mothers buy a doll with breasts? It felt sexualized in some way. Sure. Well, the doll in general is, has been a means to sexualize children. Right. But that, that thing of like, if there's breasts and then what is that, what is that going to do?

And then in the story of Ruth Handler, she actually, she did have breast cancer. Yes. And she had a double mastectomy. she actually she did have breast cancer yes and she had a double mastectomy and I thought there was something about that

that felt so if you wrote it it would almost be too poetic or almost as like how all these things fit together and then she invented a fake breast and I know they're put in your bra yeah

specifically for women to regain confidence after breast cancer. Yeah, no. And I thought something about that felt so like that we're living in these bodies that are falling apart. And they just are. And that the woman who created this doll that has been a hero, a villain, but particularly in presenting perfection, she's been presented as she's a villain. And the woman herself who invented it was this utterly human, funny woman who lived in a body who was just her own. And the way Rhea Perlman says, like, you think the lady who invented Barbie looks like Barbie? Nobody looks like Barbie.

And I was just like, she was so wonderful at it. And she's such a, I mean, she's so funny. And I also was, when I talked to her about it, I was like, you're playing the creator. You're playing Ruth Handler, but also in a way you're playing God. But then I was saying, I was like, well, if I met God and it was Raya Perlman, I would be pretty happy about that.

She just has a quality that's wonderful and kind of not so sentimental, but very loving and warm. How long did you deliberate how to end that movie? Oh, well, I knew the whole time. When we were writing it, we knew the whole time, once we were far enough into it, it's like, she's got to end human.

This has got to be what it is. So we knew that, much of it. And then I think the original draft that we brought in margo to that ending was there but the the ending in the doctor's office wasn't there yet but what about the montage of oh oh that part the perception why those choices well that was that that was that was always written into the script as um uh know, take my hands, now close your eyes, now feel. Right. That was written.

And then I think I wrote, then we have an amazing montage of life that's like Days of Heaven. Yeah. Terrence Malick-y. Yeah. But it's like that. It's great. It's wonderful. And then I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do that.

It's great. It's wonderful. And then I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do that. What we ended up doing was I knew I wanted sort of something that was part of, like, felt like after all of this construction. Sure. That it felt like connected to real life. Right. So you had the sort of Super 8 looking stuff. Yes.

And historical and not historical. But that was all footage from people who worked on the movie. That was, what we decided was, I said to everyone, I did for everyone who's in pre-production and production post, I said, if you have footage, send it in. And so it was people's daughters and moms and aunts. There's some old stuff in there. Yeah, and grandmothers and great aunts. And we took all of it. And there's actually people who aren't with us anymore.

And it was like this combination of everything. And we had Billy's beautiful song. And I thought to myself, even if people don't literally know that this is footage of the people who made the movie i think they kind of can feel it that it was authentic it was authentic but you chose that you know those emotions that she was being fed were of really the the joys and and maybe slightly bittersweet yeah but there was no bottom end of darkness to it no there wasn't a bottom end of darkness to it. No, there wasn't a bottom end of darkness. I mean, there's crying. There's different things where you feel that there's an indication of it. But it's not that it feels, but that there's a sort of, I think there's a sadness baked into it.

Just because of the arc of time. Yeah. Just because of the arc of time. Yeah. And I think that you can kind of absorb that in it, that you're going to have all of this. And it will also go. Oh, yeah. That's the basic darkness.

Yes. Yeah. But you chose not to use, like, you know, Vietnam footage. A piece of Oppenheimer, like the atomic bomb blast. Well, I think in a way that was sort of saying for people, making it the people who made the movie, made it because it was sort of, that was the thing that made it, you know, I find limitations very helpful

and parameters very helpful. It's like, well, these are the human beings who made this movie. That's great. What has life looked like for them? What are the people they loved? That felt like a good, it's so hard to say, what is life writ large? But I was like, well, but these are the human beings who actually made this one. And why don't we put the people they love in it?

Yeah, because I felt it because there's those moments where you're like, is this real? It looks like real footage. So that's the explanation. Yeah, that's the explanation. As opposed to doing what, you know, what Charlie Kaufman did in an adaptation. Do you remember like from the beginning of life? Oh, no. I mean, I love no, I mean, I love that. I mean, I love that.

I love that movie so much. I haven't seen it in so long, but I, I actually thought about adaptation a lot during, um, making Little Women because adaptation does that amazing hat trick where all of a sudden you're like, oh, we're in the brother's movie. Like you kind of realize you're in the other thing. Yeah. And I've always thought with Little Women because of, you know, there's like the two timelines.

But then I thought at some point it's like suddenly you're like, you're in the fiction. Yeah. Oh, wait. That's great. Now where are we? Right. But I mean, he pulled it off so beautifully where all of a sudden you're like in the twins thing. And it's so, I want to watch that again.

I haven't seen it in a while. I actually got to see Nicolas Cage last night in San Francisco the night before. He won an award. It was amazing. Yeah, I love him. I just watched the new one. Oh, so great. Did you see it?

I haven't seen that one. No, I haven't seen it yet. I was a big fan of Pig and the unbearable weight of massive talent. I love it. He is just so, he's so wonderful. Yeah. And you couldn't figure out a way to wedge Tracy Letts into Barbie? It's a heartbreak that he's not in Barbie.

He actually has told me he's upset. No, I saw him on my birthday. But I mean, I love, I mean, it does feel sort of wrong that he's not. No, I saw him on my birthday. But I mean, I love, I mean, it does feel sort of wrong that he's not in it. Well, he's one of your guys. I know, he's one of my guys. He will always be one of my guys. I will find something the next time. I love him.

Do you have a next thing in the chamber? I have something I'm meant to be doing that I will do. But is it yours? I'm adapting. No, no. It it yours? I'm adapting. No, no. It's public. I was given Narnia

to do what I want. Oh, yeah. I think I heard that. Yeah. So that's a very stressful, exciting, but scary. It's a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, you know, I do wake up in the middle of the night saying. Worrying about Narnia? Worrying about Narnia. But it was interesting, actually. I told my son who has it. It's a lot. resonant without even knowing what they are yeah but i said to him um he said he he was asking me are you are there other movies you're gonna make after barbie because he doesn't know yeah four and a half right um and i said oh yes i there will be other movies and then i said well i'm gonna make

something about a place called narnia and he instantly his eyes got big and he said where is narnia and i was like like, well, you know. And then he didn't say anything about it for a while. And then he was going to bed and he said, tell me about Narnia. And he remembered the name. And I thought, well, that's the thing. It's that strange resonance that you don't know where it's from. But C.S. Lewis tapped into something.

know where it's from, but C.S. Lewis tapped into something. Just like to remember a name like that, it's just like lots of things seem to slip through as, you know. Yeah. But it was like, it sounds, it's totally new. It's a new thing. And he had that kind of like lean in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I thought, well, that's why it's great.

There you go. Now you've got a starting point. Yeah. Moses, yeah, my son. Yeah. Tell me about Narnia. Yeah. Well, it's good to see you. Nice to see you. a starting point. Yeah. Moza, you had my son. Yeah. Tell me about Narnia. Yeah. Well, it's good to see you. Nice to see you. This was so fun. How long are you in town for?

God, I leave tomorrow, but then I'm back in January. I'm giving Ryan an award in January. Yeah. And I think I'm giving someone else an award in January. But it's nice. I actually think... What's that? The Indie Spir the indie spirits no I'm giving him an award

for Santa Barbara Santa Barbara Film Festival okay and then I like um they do this thing when they do um the governor's award where they give out like uh Oscars for careers oh okay those are kind of amazing yeah they're great because they do like your whole career yeah last year last year was Peter Weir oh wow amazing yeah you were like right career. Last year was Peter Weir. It was amazing. You were like, right. I can't believe Peter Weir's never won an Oscar. It's crazy, right?

This guy, and it's so wonderful because it's like a long... Anyway, I don't know, all that stuff. Okay. Well, have fun. Thank you. Don't wear yourself out. I try not to. I'm just going to keep burping.

It's horrible. I'll see you soon. See you soon. There you go. What a great conversation. Barbie is streaming on Max. Also, you can listen to Greta's earlier Wf episode in your free podcast feed it's episode 869 uh hang out for a minute people

it's a night for the whole family be a part of kids night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a special 5 p.m start time on saturday march 9th at first ontario center in hamilton the first 5 000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Okay, folks, we're doing a new series on the full Marin. It's called WTF Origins, and we're talking about some of the stops I made on the road to creating this podcast.

This week, I talked about my memories of Luna lounge and the New York alt comedy scene of the nineties. There was a lot of these acts that were in the, in the orbit of Luna that were not at all standup comedy club people. But then on the other side of that, you had me and Jeff Ross and, you know, Louie and Silverman and Janine, Zach,

uh, you know, the full Colin Quinn, eventually, eventually people made their way because singer made it appealing. You know, at the beginning comics like Colin and Patrice and stuff were like, you know,

well, you guys were just doing comedy for nothing. You know, they made it seem like it was amateur hour. It was an open mic. And I always treated it as a place to work out. Right. In a way that I could not work out in the comedy clubs.

And I think eventually that became sort of a thing. I think, I don't know why, I don't know if Colin was adverse to it at the beginning, but he ended up coming around. And then like the state guys, I think arguably Stella probably started at luna lounge like it was and some of them were doing solo stand-up some of the you know ucb people were doing solo performances so it became this huge scene and it was sort of the the center of a comedy thing between performance art, sketch, and stand-up that actually got a hip

kind of following to it. It was like, you'd go there on Mondays, there was a line out the door, and I was just this cranky fuck. And I hated everybody that was coming in for some reason. And I'd get up there and do my little thing. But I was like, why are all these people here? And I remember Will Ferrell came down, celebrities would start coming down, and it became little thing. And, but I was like, you know, why are all these people here? And I remember Will Ferrell came down, celebrities would start coming down and it became a thing. To get all full Marin bonus episodes, subscribe by going to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF plus man. I am, I'm recording this at eight in the morning and it's like, my brain is on fire. It's like fucking morning radio. This is the zone, man.

This is the zone. Get up and go. I hope you're listening to this first thing because I recorded it first thing yesterday. All right, here's some guitar. Thank you. boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere whoo man