WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1505 - Jacqueline Novak

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

Jacqueline Novak’s new Netflix standup special is a rite of passage story about a girl finding her way into womanhood. Kind of. For Marc, it was refreshing to watch something so frank, filthy and fun. For Jacqueline, it was an honest expression of what she finds funny, not a statement or provocation. Marc and Jacqueline talk about intentions and reactions in comedy, their approaches to making a special, and how depression factors into the creative output of a comic. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it today jacqueline novak is here she's a a comedian, an author. She performs at Largo a lot. Her off-Broadway show, Get On Your Knees, was turned into a Netflix special directed by Natasha Lyonne. Also odd, but wonderful.

Nothing wrong with being odd. I imagine I'm odd. I can't see myself properly all the time, but everything's all right. Things are okay. I do have some grievances. And I could put them out here on the show because it is my option to do that. And the last time I did it, uh, I actually got results, but I don't like to use the show like this, but I'm going to go

ahead and say it now. I've spent some time in Albuquerque recently to see my dad. And I went to Albuquerque a week or so ago for just a day to deal with some stuff there. And I rented Hertz. I've been renting Hertz my whole life, it feels like. It's not the best. It's not the cheapest. But it's Hertz. They're my guys. Hertz.

And I had the car for one day. And I got a bill for six. and I called up and I said, ah, this is crazy. It's five extra days. And I knew, I kind of knew cause it's a little disorganized over at the Albuquerque, uh, uh, rental car facility, a little understaffed, not judging, but you know, you kind of pull your car into a line and you leave it there. The guy says, park it there. You park it there. You go away. Six extra days.

How could it have sat there for six extra days? And I told them I had it for one day. And they're like, well, we're going to have to do extracurricular, extra something to figure out if I'm telling the truth. They got to look at videotape. And I guess you got to do due diligence. But I've been with the Hertz for decades. Why am I going to lie? It kind of stuck in my craw. Now I'm not saying it's not like the, the, uh, top executives of Hertz are listening to this, but I would like some resolution.

I've reached out, I've waited, but we'll see. maybe it'll work out again not a big deal not that hung up on it as you can tell taking a pretty good air time five extra days okay that's it I've said my piece I've done what I needed to do for myself and for my sanity now okay here's the deal with Jacqueline Novak. There's two parts to this for a reason. I guess I'll go into it now. When I saw the Netflix show, Get On Your Knees, which is streaming starting tomorrow, it was great. She shot the special at the same place I shot it, at Town Hall in New York.

And we talked a lot about comedy, a lot about a lot of other stuff, but I didn't get to the meat of the matter here. And that's that the special is sexually explicit. And when I was coming up, there was always this idea about, you know, working blue. Either you were dirty or you weren't dirty. And if you weren't dirty, you know, it was better somehow. And if you were dirty, that limited your ability to make money or work or whatever. But it was looked down upon for several different reasons. You know, some people used to say, look, it's kind of a crutch or it's easy to work dirty. It's not. It's not really because it makes people uncomfortable. It's not. Some people say it's shock value. It can be, but it's still to do thoughtful filth, to do smart filth. It's not, it's not a guarantee. It's not easy. You know,

I don't understand when people say those kinds of things where it's sort of like, uh, it's a crutch, it's a, uh, it's shock value. It's, uh, it doesn't require craft or whatever. It's like, it's not, it's not that easy. And there was a time where, you know, people like Bill Hicks, the brilliance of him was how he could weave, you know, socially, social political commentary, aggressive social political commentary, you know, with filth. And then, you know, he always sort of said, you know, don't worry. You know, well, you know, we'll parachute into Dick Joke Island at the end. I don't remember what he used to say, but I always have a big, filthy closer and sort of if you are a certain type of comic that kind of set the standard, it sort of laid it out for you that you do your bits and then you know the last few minutes just a big

dirty closer that was a school i came from but i also was a fan of dirty comedy since i was a kid whether it was underground comics whether it was carlin shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker motherfucker and piss whether it was cheech and chong whether it was Richard Pryor, Lenny Bruce, sort of looking back on that, why am I saying sort of so much? I liked that risk-taking of dirty comedy. And I would do it. I would mix it up, but it was sort of part of the repertoire. I guess it still is, but it seems like it's less and less. Like, I don't remember my last two specials.

I guess there was some filth, smart filth. There was a dirty clothes to end times fun. I guess it's always kind of there. But all this to say that I had Jacqueline Novak back because we didn't talk about the special thoroughly enough in terms of it being smart filth, dirty, adult content, however you want, blue. The entire show is really about learning how to give a blow job. Once you know how to give a blow job, what happens? And then self-reflection, there's three acts to it. So kind of, it's all comedy, it's all jokes, but there is a story. There's an arc to it revolving around learning how to give a blow job. And I, I I've kind of noticed recently that,

and maybe I'm projecting, but I'm not seeing as many dudes doing dirty comedy as I am seeing, uh, women. And it's great great. There have always been dirty women, dirty women comics, just like there's always been dirty male comics. But there's something happening now to where I've noticed a lot of young female comedians are doing really raw stuff, man. And I think it's great because I don't always hear that point of view. And it's not a point of view you hear often. I mean, people like Sarah Silverman would do cute, dirty stuff. But I'm seeing real kind of first-person point of view, dirty stuff from a lot of female comics.

Some of them dirtier than others. And I just don't know if it's a cultural thing or if guys have pulled away from it because of of fear of something but uh it is kind of refreshing and cringy in a good way to see uh women talking first person in a a sexually explicit specifically female way to women it's it just i i guess i'm just noticing something it may be me you know not seeing the whole picture but it just feels like there's a lot of good dirty comedy going on by women which i am i'm i'm happy about and i just really needed to have that conversation with Jacqueline. So that's the reason I had her back to make sure we talked about the, uh, the blue, the blueness of it all. You dig look, people, we all get a little slack when we're starting

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and this is me uh meeting i thought for the first time jacqueline novak hi it's terry o'reilly host Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations. How a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category. And what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

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to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Now I'm into a future mode. Like what am I going to take with me. To like my plan. And then sometimes I'm like. Is that going to crush me. Wait take with me. Yeah I'm going to. I've decided on a future.

Oh, okay. What are you taking with you into, like, what parts of your... The next phase of life. What am I taking with me into? When I move. What baggage am I leaving? When I move. You're actually moving. Well, I'm thinking about it.

I have a plan. Where? Can you talk about where? Yeah, I'm going to go to New Mexico. Are you fucking serious? I grew up there. Okay. It's so weird. It's like I'm going to go home. That's where I'm going to die. I'm going to go to New Mexico. Are you fucking serious? I grew up there. Okay. It's so weird.

It's like I'm going to go home. That's where I'm going to die. I'm going to go like a salmon. Do they do that? Are they one of those? They swim back? All the way. Yeah, they swim back and die.

Not upstream. Yeah, upstream. Are you serious? Yeah, they go down, and they swim all the way back, do the egg thing, and then die. I'm not doing the egg thing. I think you should do the egg thing Oh And then die I'm not doing the egg thing I think you should do the egg thing No The return Like

I feel like Where'd you grow up? In New York Suburbs Like Westchester Which one? No Kisco

Chappaqua Oh My first girlfriend grew up there Really? Horace Greeley Yep Yep My first girlfriend

Grew up in Chappaqua Oh my god Yeah Where did you Like an adult girlfriend or College Yeah Really? Horace Greeley. Yep. Yep. My first girlfriend grew up in Chappaqua. Oh, my God. Yeah. Where did you, like an adult girlfriend or? College. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I still talk to her occasionally. She called me out of nowhere to sort of reconnect. Yeah. And she's like, hey, we don't talk to each other hardly at all anymore. And I'm just like, I think we should check in. And it was really pleasant. And then she, at the end of it, she goes, I'm writing this book. No, no, no, no.

I mean. And I'm like, so what No, no, no, no. I mean. And I'm like, so what does that mean? How do I fare? Because I was a pretty angry, crazy man. She's like, no, we were younger. I'm like, all right. Yeah. I have no control over your memories.

God. No, no. I get freaked out about that sometimes because I remember things people said, you know, like 15 years ago, whatever. And, you know, as clear as anything. And it's almost like I shouldn't be walking around with that information. Like it's almost like unfair that we can retain just small things. And I'll sometimes like reference them like they were said yesterday. Like they hurt you or embarrass you?

Not even like heavy stuff. But you would never go back to Chappaqua. To die? Yeah. Do you have an emotional connection to it? My parents are still there. They are? Yeah. How many siblings?

Two. Younger? Older. Oh, really? Yeah. No shit. Baby. I'm the baby.

You know, people love to say it. Yeah. My sister's in corporate America. Brand, the baby. You know, people love to say it. My sister's in corporate America, brand stuff, product development, that kind of stuff. My brother's an English teacher in Vermont. That sounds like the life. He's under a lot of snow right now, too. Yeah, and he sent it. Do you love snow?

Don't mind it. I mean, you're not moving to, you're not, yeah. Like, New Mexico's nice middle. Like, it gets snow, but it's not crazy. It gets cold, but not crazy. Yeah. Okay, so let's go, you used to have me on your shows. Now, let's explore that because you would think that I would remember.

I don't, no, I actually don't because I wouldn't, if I were you, remember having done my show, okay? Because it's sort of like someone invites you to do a spot, you show up. What year are we talking? Like 2008. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And I'm a little, again, a little off on the years, but this is probably like, yeah, this is probably 2007, 8, but like Piano's Bar.

Sure. Not a great time for me, I don't think. Yeah. I think I was kind of half living there then, doing a show over at Air America, that video show, and I was in the middle or towards the end of a divorce. And yeah, that period is full PTSD. Yeah. Yeah.

That's pre-what? Like pre-WTF. Pre-WTF. Pre-WTF. Just pre. Right. Because I remember feeling like, oh, my God, like, kind of, like, excited. You know what I mean? Like, Mark Marantz here?

Like, no, almost with WTF, like, explosion, kind of like. Oh, yeah. He's, like, getting his proper, like, due or something. Finally, that guy, he got through. He landed on his feet no but i i just felt like in new york like you know yeah like like uh it was just really excited i remember introducing you once i i had in my head i was worried like like i i feel like once introducing you like i tried to sound fucking cool i don't know like

and i just like vaguely remember it and kind of, like, not being sure. Like, basically being like, is that still living in my man's head? Like, it's exhausting. You're trying to be cool? Have you, like, I was just like. Oh, yeah, I really remember that. I'm like, what's with this affectation? What I love about him is, like, you know, that kind of thing.

Like, I was trying to, like, be like. Me, I was the old guy at Pianos. You guys were the cool ones. I was already. Never. I was already sort of, like, a veteran. Like, I hate when people do that. This guy's a legend.

I got to quit. I got to quit. Right. I mean, that is arguably the prime. You know, I can't appreciate it. I can't appreciate it all the time. Yeah. Can you? We both did our specials at Town Hall, by the way. I mean, that is arguably the prime. I can't appreciate it. I can't appreciate it all the time. Yeah. We both did our specials at Town Hall, by the way. I know.

Which I don't know why I thought. You look like you spent much less money than me. Yes, yes. The strip down, you'd see the back wall. And it's a weird theater because it's not a theater theater. Right. It's a public lecture hall. So there's a wall there's no there's no depth to the thing yes and and uh i kind of was into like have you ever seen town bloody hall it's like um norman mailer it's like 70s yes i saw that yeah yeah and i was kind of like let's

get as much as that you want to get some tables considered considered a deus or like a loose a loose chair but yeah definitely it was like uh leaning into the kind of like that way that it feels to me it was like the lights were on in that thing it was like daytime it felt like on the norman miller yes yes totally it's it's like yeah they flicked on the just everything and i kind of like that place with the lights on it does have a weird it is an interesting space yeah so it's obviously leaning into that and also trying to like, to me, I had this idea of almost, particularly for this kind of like debut, trying to like break through thing, like for myself, like trying to cut through and get myself a career, you know, like. Is that the plan? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Got it. How does that unfold in your imagination? Well, oh, I mean. So you cut through. So it happens. What are you doing once you cut through? Well, the main thing is, you know, hopefully cash flow of being able to tour. Oh, with the show.

Or tour with new shows, right? Sure, of course. I mean, it's really like just to. So you don't have a draw. I had enough draw to do like a couple hundred seaters with this show. Coast to coast, on the coasts. Yeah? Or everywhere?

On the coast, I was able to do like repeat kind of like runs right? And then on the road it would be like go to Minneapolis and do like a 300 cedar maybe at a show. Maybe you should get into the Jewish community center circuit. Oh I've inquired

directly to my agent about this. I was like what else can I can I. Don't do it. I was like, what else can I, I was like, I need the gigs. When I had the one-person show, Jerusalem Syndrome, which is, it's not a fundamentally Jewish show, but kind of is. Yeah.

I did a couple of those Jewish community centers. It's fucking, it's just too much. I mean, well, then the whole, there's like talking about Jewishness in the act, in the context. I mean, I say it like in my special, like, talking about Jewishness in the act, in the context. I mean, I say it, like, in my special, like, when I say Jew, I'm like, I'm a Jew. I don't know why I say it with, like, an attitude almost like I think I'm dropping a bomb or something. And it's like, and the word Jew, like, is so, you know, intense.

And now it's even more intense. Yeah. So I imagine sort of for it to be in that setting, sort of the whole humor of that is confusing. Oh, yeah, and their expectations are weird. Yeah. With Jewish audiences, I don't know. And right now, it's just no time to be nebulous. I'm sorry.

I keep referencing your material, but, like, I cannot tell you how much I think about and agree about jokes in Auschwitz. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Of course. And they would have been fucking amazing. People have pointed out. Some guy just wrote to me, wrote a whole book about it. Oh, really?

And I think that Roberto Benigni movie might be about it. Oh, yeah. It's a little bit different than I think what I suspect you and me are kind of imagining this sort of observational, obviously like gallows. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like, I mean, da, da, da. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like, I mean, you know, Roberto Bernini. Very thin people kind of laughing under their breath at the one guy. So when I picture just Holocaust-y stuff, right, like I put myself there, you know, like I have these images in my head.

They're not based on my historical images. Like, I have these images in my head that are not based on my historical images. Yeah. They're just sort of these things, like, for some reason, when I picture Auschwitz, I picture myself on, like, the sports field at my high school, okay? Like, I place it there. Yeah. And I always place it there. Like, I sort of envision, I sort of build, like, a... Yeah.

Do you? I don't know. Do I have an active... Do you have sort of, like, when you're, like, when you picture that, like, telling jokes, like, making jokes, like, does your mind paint a scene? Sometimes. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Like, I think most of the images I have in my mind about the Holocaust are probably from movies and from some of those films we saw in Hebrew school when I was a kid.

You know, but for some reason I follow Auschwitz on Twitter. And it's really worked in planting, like they have the Auschwitz Memorial, they have a Twitter feed. They do. And really all they do is they post pictures of people and they say their name. Oh, yeah. And then they say the age. They say what they did. And then they say perished in the camps. Oof.

And they're just photographing. And so that. The word perish is so Jewish to me. I don't know. Yeah. Perish and never forget. But so that kind of really pounds the empathy part, really picturing the scope of it. And just the idea of selection.

Like when I picture it, it's like waiting in a line, wondering if you're going to be random. Like I can't stand when it happens at the airport when I go through security. Just a random because I've done everything I could. I've done everything right. And I got TSA. I got no metal on me. And I walk through and I'm sorry, you randomly selected. For that to happen and then be thrown into a fucking oven would be terrible.

Waiting for any this or that creates great anxiety for me. Me too. On the smallest level. Always. I mean. Like if I walk into a place that has a buffet, it's like. Yes. It's a fucking nightmare.

Oh, my God. Because I'm like, how long is it going to last? Are we. How much do I got to get? Can I go back? No, it's. I can't even do it. The epigenetics of it.

Like, the trauma in the cells and all that kind of stuff. I don't know what it is. Like, right now, like, we're going to see this movie tonight. Yeah. And the stuff. I don't know what it is. Like right now, we're going to see this movie tonight. Yeah. And the Egyptian, I don't know why, but they don't have, you can't reserve seats. So now I'm already like, what time should we get there? Oh, you can't reserve seats. Do I even have time to finish this conversation?

It's at seven. Should I go get seats now? Yeah. So now, when did you start doing comedy? In college in 2003. Where? What college? Georgetown. Oh, I think I knew that. And college in 2003. Where? What college? Georgetown.

Oh, I think I knew that. And you went to school with some famous people? Yeah. Which ones? Jim Gaffigan went there, but he was there before me. He's like my age, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Birbiglia, Kroll, Mulaney. They were all there when you were there? Birbiglia just graduated, and Kroll was directing the improv troupe. Oh, really? He cast me and Mulaney in the troupe as freshmen. So this was like a student act, what do you call it? Yeah, a club. And that school's not like some art school.

And had that troupe been around for years? Yes, Birbiglia had been in that troupe. But it preceded Birbiglia too. I believe it preceded him. And, you know, improv is weird, but I started stand-up around them because it was like, I don't know. Despite the terror of stand-up, sort of just being in control and being like, I'm saying the thing. I'm not trying to, you know. What year was this?

2003. What was around? You guys were going out. Open mics. Like a little crew of you? No, no, no, no. That was solo. I mean like the.

Were there other comics? Was Kroll doing comedy? Was Mulaney doing it yet? He started around that same time. We like put up a show together somewhere at someplace kroll i don't think he was doing stand-up at georgetown but but right after new york he had a show and i don't think he ever did stand up until recently in a way in some way i think he's more recent to stand up he's always been a sketch guy right he's pretty much character

yeah like like so many characters and whatever but he did stand up like in New York in those years like he had a show that he hosted with Jesse Clines he would do

you know like stand up that's kind of where I like started in New York around that time so you started in the established

alt comedy world yes of New York in the mid aughts yes great time like in the sense of sort of

always hard to say if like if some venue right now is what that felt like to me then or if, you know, like it's not like used to be, you know, in terms of like standups. I mean, most of the standups eventually find their way into standup clubs, but there was a whole scene down there. I don't know where a lot of those people are, but they're kind of around. I mean, a lot of people end up writing. Yeah. I think a lot of people. It doesn't exist now is what I'm saying. Yeah.

It doesn't. Yeah. We used to make an argument that like really a lot of big comics didn't come from alt comedy specifically. Because there was a movement here that was a little different. And that's always, you hear, like, that's the true original alt. Well, I mean, I think New York came a little later because I was part of that. But there were some of the same players. But out here, back in the day, like, with Beth Lapidusus Uncabaret and the bookstore shows

and Largo the original Largo that whole thing and then in New York it was Luna Lounge and then things sort of spawned out

from that because you had that performance art element in New York so those weirdos were around and then I think it all grew out of that

but then it sort of shifted with you know when comics just would host shows in Brooklyn venues and shit, they just became more straight stand-up, really. Yeah. Didn't they? It's hard to say. I mean, Rafifis was kind of like a crazy town. Yeah.

There's a lot of things going on there. But it still felt to me, for whatever reason, and maybe just because I was so focused on stand-up, that, You know, to me, it really did feel like getting up, like, doing that show, like, okay, like, I better, like, I'm proving myself as a stand-up comedian. Yeah. And, like, maybe if I, like, that's what I'm here to sort of give. I'm not doing some weird thing. Yeah, me too.

Yeah. So it was almost like, so I better. I think there's some people, like, sometimes I feel like there's this thing about, like, the people who end up, you know, like, like writing for television, like almost like they, they sort of fell out of the thing. But it's also like. No, they're just smarter than we are. Right. They might have.

That was the way to do comedy for them then. And then. Well, if you get up on it, like, look, being a stand up is stupid. Yeah. How are you going to fucking make it? Yeah. So the people that know well enough that like, i gotta i can write jokes yeah and i've learned that that they're good so what do i need to stand up there for i'm gonna go right so what

is it in us i mean what is it i don't fucking write for other people no yeah and so i i did pride also in the like that it's not enough that like like i sort of it's it's like pride and and not exactly shame but sort of like i don't know I actually, I don't know that I could really write jokes for other people. I couldn't. Like, could you like the, like a late night packet or something? I never, couldn't do that. Me neither. Yeah.

Like, and it's, and I, and eventually I've just sort of like, I, it's probably pathological. Yeah. Because it doesn't seem to be like this weird kind of like I'm choosing this. It's just like it reminded me when you're talking about the improv group. I remember when I was at BU, I wanted to start an improv group at BU. And I put up posters and I had a name and I was going to get people to come and I was going to start it. And then when I had the meeting to start the improv group, I realized I'm not a leader. And I don't want to have anything to do with this.

I don't know how to do this. So I think there's something for me. What it was is that like me doing stand-up was a journey of self-defining. It was not a job. Oh, yeah. Like I need to, this is how I'm going to figure out who i am in the world how to have my own space how to have my own voice yes and i wasn't even aware of that but i always thought it was like i never thought like i'm an entertainer i thought like this is where i'm going to figure

it out yes yes and it's mine i feel uh very similarly i feel like part of the you know as someone who gets inspired and like sees, sees, like, puppeteering and goes, like, I want to do that, you know, like, when I feel moved by something, I want to do it. Then you buy the tools to make the puppets. It feels so good buying the tools. Like, that day at the beginning of a potential artistic pursuit, like, it's just, like, I love, like, buying the books, like, loading up on the books and spending too much on the

books that are coming. Yeah. But with stand-up, I think the reason it has stuck is that kind of like self-defined. Like it felt like this is so like hard. I'm so self-conscious. Like to master this, I've mastered something in myself kind of. Exactly. And like even if you're not aware of that, it is sort of this thing where you kind of live and die by your own thing.

I still kind of feel it sometimes, you know know like when i get a new joke going like like you go through ebbs and flows of this thing where like there was a bunch of months there i'm like i was putting together this new hour and it's kind of there but i'm bored with it already and then now i've got a few new bits that are pretty yeah they're pretty edgy and i'm like it's still kind of exciting yeah and i'll give a fuck yeah like to really get to a place where you don't give a fuck is the greatest. And I just had this thing happen recently where I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with me? At this age, I've been doing it this long. And I had like this, a flight of insecurity that was very specific.

Yeah. And I'm like, dude, you're going to have to kill that. Yeah. Because it's very specific. Yeah. It's when an established act goes on before me and they kill and everybody knows who they are. There's still part of me that thinks like, now I got to try to do it after that guy. Yeah.

And it's like, what the fuck is that? Now, are you imagining sort of, in your mind, does this crowd not know who you are as much as they know how much they are? That's right. Or some of the movies. There's some of that. So they're kind of like, and then who's this guy? Exactly, there's that. But then there's also this sort of like,

I'm not a fun act. Oh, totally, totally, totally. No, right. There's not a sense of like, I can go out and sing my song. Yeah, it's like, now this next guy's just going to keep up this fun energy. That's also part of the showcase problem.

No, that's true. Everyone does the same amount of time. And you're – no, no, but just like someone should come to see you. They should see an hour. They should go into your world. Oh, that. I thought you meant like a showcase club is one where everyone just goes on the same amount of time. Yeah.

You know, look, I mean, last night I was at the comedy store and I did an early show. It was some guys, you know, comic producing. And, you know, sometimes I get there early, I'll go on. That was fine. Then I do the main room and it was okay. It took work and Bobby Lee went on before me. He's like, Bobby's very Bobby. I love him. We killed. I knew I might do. It doesn't matter

because just do the jokes that you are enjoying right now and see if you can land them. And if you can't, fuck them. And then I did a set in the original room later, which was hard. The main room and the original room were both hard. And fucking Chris Rock was sitting in the back the whole thing.

But I know him. I know all these people. But I'd done two sets and I was sort of like, I can't lose. I can't lose. Does Chris Rock, does he give you your, does he acknowledge? Yes, totally. Okay. Yeah.

Now, oh yeah, they definitely do. They've given it. They've said firmly. Sure. He tagged my joke. He came up and he's like, I got a tag for you. So like, but you know, there's still part of me that's sort of like, I'm not of them. Yeah.

I'm not. Well, you called yourself like a medium celebrity or something like that. Mid-level. Right, right. Okay, mid-level. That's honest. And it's, well, so, I mean, like the thing we're talking about, but success, right? About like what's the goal of the breaking through.

Yeah. And it's like the way I've gotten really like literal about it is like, all right, if I had to go tour for the, if my special didn't come out, no new fans, I could probably go tour a new show to those same 300 people from the last time at the city, you know, whatever. In theory, special goes out, I should get some new people. The people that like me should find, you know, in theory. And that's like really straightforward, you know? Well, this is an interesting thing because I relate to you. Like, I didn't have a draw forever.

Yeah. Like forever. Yeah. Like, forever. Yeah. Like, by the time I started the podcast, I was just looking at a future of, you know, shitty rooms. Yeah. Where I'm doing off weeks because I can't sell tickets. Yeah. But I get a lot of respect in the business. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wonder if you're, the insecurity, the very specific one you're talking about. Like, because I have that kind of in this mindset of the trade of stand-up comedy. Like tradesmen. Okay, you know this thing? I can get up in any room in this world. Oh, you got it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I can get up in any room in this world and make those fuckers laugh.

That's the job. Can you do the job, Jacqueline? And it's like, there's a part of me that's still, like I'm very, like that's why one one show concerns me when that turns into another. Sure, of course. Or like even things in marketing. Oh, so you're doing that theater thing now. So you're doing a theater thing now.

Like you're doing the one person show thing. They're like, what is that? Someone like a comic was like, you know, how does that compare to stand-up? And I'm like, check the laugh count. You know what I mean? Like I'm like. Yeah. I'm like, you know, like LPMs or whatever is hysterical.

Like, I read that, like, on a comedy website once. Yeah, yeah. 30 seconds. You just be like, you gotta get one every 30 seconds. I'm like, that's too short. Yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna. You never give me a little more time.

What about, what about longer, longer than me? Set up, longer set up. Deeper response. No, it doesn't apply anymore. Yeah, it doesn't apply anymore. But the tradesman fear of like, yeah, I don't know that in a showcase show, I can get up and sort of. Nail it. Get it, you know, like in that way. You don't think so?

And also you're trying. I can. I sort of. I came up doing that. Yeah. I stopped giving a shit about it. Yeah. But it's all about the strong opener.

If I have a really good first joke. Yeah. Then like I feel safe. Put him at ease. Or something. Just sort of like, yeah, I'm in. Now it's mine to fuck up I feel like I've never

landed on a true opening joke because it requires this kind of acceptance of what they perceive it always feels like not just like

I know what you guys are thinking no not one of those I know what I look like I look like this yeah. Right? No, not one of those. Yeah. I know what I look like. I look like this mixed with that. Yeah. Although, like, you know, when it's done well, like, the tail does it and I'm screaming. You know what I mean?

Sure. Like, Andre Agassi with a drinking problem or something like that. You know, it's like, you know, anything. A tail will churn through. He'll do a whole set of opening jokes. Oh, my God. They're all so good. They're all so fucking good.

I'd like a new hour from him now. Sure. That'd be great. My first special was like an hour and a half. Mine's an hour and a half. Yeah. And I thought I could almost edit it like audio. I was way too...

Yeah. I was like, oh, but if you just remove all the ums and the likes and the whatever, I'm like, this thing's down to 86, you know? And they're like, yeah, I don't know why I thought it would be that easy. Did they try to bully you into 73, 75, 70, hour? You know, they, I think they let go. Did you self-produce it or did they do it? No, they did it.

Oh, good. They did it. And then I keep paying more to, like, go back and edit more. Like, I just keep. It's done, though. Oh, yeah's done though oh yeah no no we're done i just i don't know that like what has your experience been in post in terms of like uh like i've heard this thing lately they're like oh let the editor cut it up and that's it oh uh do you feel comfortable with that depends who the director is like you know like uh lynn shelton did two of them and i trusted her because she knows me

totally and but no i was there yeah you know and i chime in how do you feel when you're watching your own shit i'm okay with it yeah uh i get i only get mad when like i know there's a joke on that special that i fucked up yeah yeah but it doesn But there's like two. Yeah. But it's fine. Yeah, yeah. And it's just because I just didn't do one beat. Yes, yes. Or I spaced something. Totally. So I get hung up on that.

And the last special, Fine Arts directed it. And I thought it looked good. Yeah. Like the vision for that backdrop was mine. Yeah. There was a collaborative effort around it. I think I looked all right, but I've gotten rid of that haircut so it becomes things like that like yes like end times fun it's like i never wore that vest again and i and it just and i don't know why i do that you wear the vest

a lot before that never it's so stupid isn't it okay but then when i did too real i wore a chamois shirt yeah i've worn my whole life it had a hole in it. And I watched it. I'm like, what the fuck am I wearing? I know. Getting that shit. Like, also the thing that happens of the, oh, it's for real now. I got to get the right outfit or whatever it is. It's, I don't know why. I mean, that's why I'm in a jeans and a t-shirt.

Like, because I just. No, I liked it. And I thought the whole thing looked very comfortable. Yeah. And it almost looked kind of like you could have done that with no audience. Yes. It was just sort of like, let's just go into this place and do it. Yes.

So I like this idea that the struggle that you have in terms of perception of you is because you came like you're a real comic but you came out of goofy alt comedy land right so you know you had to fight a little extra harder to justify yourself to other real comics that you're a real comic oh well and then and then the nightmare of me promoting my own like me putting my show into a into the glorious theater setting, the way that I was able to do it is like this theater model of being able to put up the show, have it sit there, and have people like,

I mean, you know, it's almost like, where do you do stand-up comedy? Like, unless you're already the act and have fans, it's like, what the hell can you do? So if you could, like, so the theater thing

is like, I mean, it was... It was smart. It was so helpful. there's a world of it yeah and even if some of that audience like is a little like theatery where it can get a little i feel precious yeah literally like when a certain audience like i much prefer doing it ultimately at the bell house right like kind of rocket vibe yeah to me it's like much more interesting when they're like like me being sort of i don't know whatever like philosophical or something in a theater is like precious and like they listen to me they almost listen to me like i'm like telling like

a trauma narrative and i'm like guys no no no like oh yeah i'm trying to be like funny but like this is not they're like a little too respectful the only other way to go would be to do it in chunks and you know and then if you were a headlining comic so you're so that's not where you're at the only way also to be like to kind of break through and go i'm doing i got the time yeah i'm doing it here it is like and i decided if it was a failure after two weeks like uh of the previews or whatever and burbiglia did late shows so it was sort of like it wouldn't be this total bummer for him like he's renting the theater essentially helping me do this yeah it wouldn't i wouldn't feel super guilty if because he got shows out of it like you know if the show failed

but i was just like if nothing actually went on the nights you did your special he would do like like in the initial run to to kind of like produce it he would oh and then yeah and then he was like he did some late shows kind of working out and stuff to kind of help like the box office. For his death show. Yes, yes. And the point being I decided like, all right, even if this goes horribly

at Cherry Lane, it's two weeks of stage time on this show, stand-up show I'm working on and who, like,

it'll get better and even if there's a bad review of it as a theater piece, like, who cares? Yeah. I could still, like, advance my goal towards it being a special, a stand-up special. So that was, like, piece, like, who cares? I could still, like, advance my goal towards

it being a special, a stand-up special. So that was, like, my worst-case scenario that helped me sort of... For me, it did feel like stand-up special. It didn't feel like a theater piece. It did feel like stand-up? Yeah. Yes! Okay, thank God. No, because, like, you know, particularly

at one-woman shows, like, there's this stench of not being the tradesman. Like, I am, like, that's where I'm, like, no. No, you're definitely... at one-woman shows, like, there's this stench of not being the tradesman. Like, I am like, that's where I'm like, no. No, you're definitely the. My heroes are a tell. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know.

No, you're definitely the tradesman because, like, all that stuff breaks into bits eventually. You know, and you're not. Yeah. I think that the real marker of a one-person show is the tender moment. Yeah. Which you don't do. They call that in Edinburgh, the wanky bit.

Okay. I heard this. Like, I didn't know what they were like, well, you know, you need a wanky bit or whatever. You have a wanky bit.

I don't remember. I know the close. No, I mean, you know, the, the, the,

I'm like scanning. I'm like, is there a moment where, uh, well, you know, the moment because, you know,

it's designed to try not to moment because it's designed to give... Tried not to, really. It's designed to give the show some emotional depth. Right. Where you just sort of like, you sit down quietly and you're like, okay, I'm going to tell you something real. Yeah. Well, I remember like...

I've done plenty of wanky moments. I mean, and also, you know, wanky bit. Wanky bit. And they mean bit like, you know, like a little bit like, you know, like a wanky bit. I was like, what? Like, they're like, you need one of those to sort of put it into the next level, right? Like transcend the form or whatever. Right.

But, yeah, I try to avoid that. No, and I thought the way that you shot it all stripped down made it very immediate. And, you know, it did. You definitely knew where you were going. Yeah. You know, but there was a couple of improv-y moments. You did some crowd work, I think. There.

You asked the guy a question. Oh, yeah, yeah. But that's like. The setup. Oh, that's. Yeah, that's like. I got. I almost cut that out.

I was like, I mean, not the bit, but I almost just removed like utilizing the. I utilize them to yell freeze for me to do my act out. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just like, really? I'm giving this guy, I'm giving this guy air on my. Well, no, I've done that too. Like I will.

Fucking worst. I don't remember which special it was. Yeah. I don't think we left it in there though. But I shot it at the Vic in Chicago. Goldthwait was. Yeah. Was directing it

oh amazing amazing I had to deal with a drunk fucking heckler no when I walked out no for my special

how when I worked out I'm in it with a fucking drunkie I couldn't fucking believe it I can't remember if we left it in wait when you

that was yeah that was more later which is harder to find than the rest because it was on Epix. Okay. I think you could watch it on iTunes.

All right. So I thought this special was great and I thought it was very funny. But wait, so you're depressed? I'm actually really good these days. So the depression book, you got all that out of you? It didn't get it out of me. I mean, or I kind of couldn't finish it until I was really out of you it didn't get it out of me i mean i mean or or i kind of i couldn't finish it until i was really out out of that but i was trying to um the the premise is sort of like

i started writing it while and like living at my parents house pretty like just depressed and i was kind of like it was sort of infiltrating all my writing as is so i was like instead of trying to not have it be in the writing yeah if i like kind of wrote from it saying i'm writing from it and it's sort of this like letter or sort of this like me to another depressed person kind of keeping them company because i would like take like i would take all these self-help books like into my bed almost like again and like read them like okay maybe one of these will help me get out of the bed and but there's this there's like an alienation from the writer because they're writing sort of from the other side you know they're writing from right you can't really trust them so i was like i'm gonna sort of be the book that you kind of take the break from trying to get

out of it and you're just there and it's your depression it's fine and that's a good name for a book sit yeah yeah and it's kind of a mindfulness angle on that ultimately. But, but, uh, so that, yeah, I mean, I, I think, uh, I've been on the same, you know, cocktail of sort of, you know, antidepressants for, for really long time at this point. I mean, and, you know, they're like, do you have any questions about your medication? I'm like, can't you see on there? questions about your medication, I'm like, can't you see on there that it's, I'm just like, it's just every year, the prior authorization with the, with the insurance, like I space out, forget it's got to happen. And then like, there's like five days where, where I'm waiting, like where I don't have the, the, the Lamictal or whatever. And it's like, and so Lamictal, were you bipolar? The Lamictal or whatever.

And it's like, and. So Lamictal, were you bipolar? No, it, you know, at times I ask, is this depression brought on by, you know, OCD? Like all the co-born mediators, what is the source? Sometimes it feels like. Anxiety paralysis. Oh, anxiety, like, exactly. I've always felt that it was anxiety that i then um like channeled into instead of over you get overwhelmed in like yeah and so then i flopped yeah yeah instead of like

an active thing and i still like train myself to flop and then i think i had to train myself like just to not flop yeah and uh but but yeah but you know, the antidepressants kind of form, like, trying to make my life as conducive to not, I mean, it was almost like, part of it was almost like, fuck it, like, might as well also, like, go for the dream. So you were, like, paralyzed? Like, not going to kill myself. I mean, I never was going to kill myself. I just knew I was never going to do it. I mean, except then again, those who do, like, are in a state that they might not have thought they were. So, you know, like, respect, essentially.

Right, right. But I sort of was like, I'm never going to do that. Like, I'm just not going to do that. So the alternative here, it was almost like, might as well, I was like staring at a wall. I was like, might as well go for it, like go for the full dream, like. Yeah. And kind of. Take contrary action.

Is that like a mantra for depression specifically or various anxiety? It's a recovery mantra. Oh, okay. It's like, you know, it's sort of contrary action is just, you know, just do the thing. Instead of sitting there like, I'm not going to do it. It will pound you new neural pathways. Because I don't like exercising. But now the voice to exercise is louder than the one like, well, I don't have to.

No, the habit. The thing that is comforting is that, and I see these infographics and whatever, and it helps me. But where it's like it's not going to be as hard every single day, that thing. The brain, the whole same thing about the brain likes to make a habit. Yeah. So then it's going to help you. And I do find that true. Yeah.

I do exercise, and now I, quote, love it. Yeah. Food's a whole other issue, though. Addiction-wise? Oh, it's just like, I'm so body image a whole other issue, though. Addiction-wise? Oh, it's just, like, I just, I'm so, like, body image weird because my mom was. Okay, but you've leaned. It's like, but it's still. But you've never, like.

Been fat? Yeah. I don't know. No, not really. Because I was looking at you during the special. Like, or whatever. And I was like, I was like, you know, like, like for a guy who talks about kind of, you know, like, I don't know. Being not healthy? Or just sort of like, you know, cerebral, the whole thing or any of these anxiety, all this kind of stuff.

I'm like, I'm like, oh, like he like never turned to food. Like I kind of was like, I was like kind of like, God, like I've always wondered about those people. I always think about it. No, oh, he never turned to food. I was kind of like, God, I've always wondered about those people. I always think about it. No, no, no. Food is the worst thing in my mind. In terms of like as a- Well, compulsive eating, restrictive eating, controlled eating, shame about eating. This is like-

It's nonstop, dude. I'd come back for like five hours to talk about this. This is my favorite subject. Really? Because like. Do you know Nikki Glaser? Yeah. Talk to her about it.

No, we did like back in the day. I've never. I used to think about going to OA. Yeah. I did as a thin person. It's not welcoming. They try to be open about it. Yeah, yeah.

There's definitely a vibe of like, why are you here? Yeah. And it's all, you know, you're like same side of the, it's a different side of the same coin, the whole thing. But that's where I, that's the only place that I like. You know, like kind of the addict-y stuff that you hear. I loved being on Weight Watchers. Even when I didn't need it. Like I never really needed any of these.

But just the whole restriction thing just became this day-long math problem. I don't know. I struggle. The restriction thing sets off such a counter, you know, desire to, like, fuck it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That I have to kind of, like, go another way. And I have to. I love these people.

Like, they are my, like, on Reddit or something, I was looking at this thing, these, like, volume eaters, right? Yeah. And it's like, they want to eat stuff that, like, fills them and a lot of volume. The opposite of, like, the small, indulgent piece of dark chocolate, you know, like the French woman eats or whatever. And they're like, how do you get, you know, how do you get volume out of blah, blah, blah? Like, how are we making our, like. It's like volume hacks? Yeah.

Like food hacks? And that's what I want. I want a big plate, a big bowl that, like, takes time to get through. Yeah. That's, to me, like, heaven. It's like, you know, television and a huge bowl of whatever, and I just know I have this, like, runway ahead of me of enjoyment. Air Pop popcorn's good for that. Oh, yes.

The volume people are big on that. They love it. Oh, yeah. For enjoyment. Air pop popcorn is good for that. Oh, yes. The volume people are big on that. Oh, yeah. They have popcorn. Popcorn. I immediately saw popcorn when I started. But the way they talk about it. I used to make air pop and spray it with butter spray and have fine sea salt on it. Yes.

And just knowing that we could just make another batch right after this one. No, no. Yeah so i it's always um and if you're alone you can just like really eat it eat the fuck out of it well one of the most important things in like a relationship or a friendship to me is like can i eat with these people you know like freely sort of um i think i'm like the best person to go to dinner with because i sort of predict and anticipate and reduce shame on the other person's part. You know, like people do these things about like kind of like, I don't know, like, oh, maybe. Like they're almost testing the waters of whether you think what they're getting is going to be like too much. Oh, yeah.

Or fucked up. And I'm like, get it. Yeah. My girlfriend is like, she's usually pretty honest with me. And like the other night, I was driving home from the comedy store and she's like, yeah, I'm just going to make myself something to eat. It's like 10 at night. And I'm like, yeah, what do you got going? She's like, biscuits.

Oh, my God. Okay, this person. That is, no, no. So is that like, are you, okay. Am I resenting her? No, no, but I'm wondering, are you able to not eat, like, you know, this thing that you're not supposed to eat right before bed, my favorite thing in the world. Oh, no, I'll eat right before bed. Okay, you'll go, okay, because that, I want to go, like, yeah, like, load up on sort of the healthy that then I can freely consume it, sort of feel like, you know, all right, I can, like, I mean, Weight Watchers would, like, the one thing I kind of get behind with them when I hear it would be like well you're allowed to have unlimited you know whatever

like zero point foods yes and I'm like I start picturing like okay like I can make this happen with the lettuce or whatever I used to do that all day

when I was on Weight Watchers I'd just be like how many one or zero point shit can I load up and I'd do it for like all day and like

and then I'd get to the end of the day and I had a certain number of points but I'd only use like ten and I'm like certain number of points, but I only used like 10. And I'm like, now I'm going to have a pizza piece. Slice of pizza. 900 points. I earned it.

Well, I'm very happy we finally talked. And I think this special is very funny. How did Natasha end up directing that? And whose idea was it to just have a spotlight and an empty stage? Yes. Whose idea was it to just have a spotlight in an empty stage? Yes. First of all, so Natasha saw me do an early version in L.A., and we knew each other a little bit.

Natasha Leone. Yeah, she just got pumped about it and texted me. Oh, good. And was just like, well, she just was really— A pumped Natasha is like you can't get a word in. Oh, it's great. It's coming at you. Oh, it's great. It's coming at you. Oh, it's like, oh, it's so heavenly. And then my whole feeling kind of in that tradesman sense was like,

I want it to feel, I want people to feel a little like afraid for me versus like slick and like I'm already like a star or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want it like, my analogy was always like, to, like, it would be scarier if you walked into a room and there was, like, just, like, a spotlight on a tightrope, you know? Yeah. And then you're really locked into, like, oh, God, there's a guy walking on a wire. Yeah. Versus almost, like, Cirque du Soleil, where it all just becomes, like, animation.

Sure. So, like, stripped down, like, a little bit of the, like, I can get up in any room and da-da-da, but in my case it's sort of like, you know, I wanted almost everything stripped down, outfit neutralized. I guess it's a little bit of this chip my shoulder, look boys, I don't need anything.

This is the real deal here. These insecurities, you know, everything's like a everything's like i'm not fucking around yeah a wall no shields let a little like let the let the spotlight chase me around like you know that kind of i liked it yeah yeah thanks so you're just gonna wait for the people to start coming in oh my god i i know i actually decided like this is the moment where I have to completely direct my own mind and only feel... I have to be doing things. I cannot wait for a reaction of any kind.

I can't fucking handle it. I can't let... Oh, yeah. No, it's the worst. I can't let compliments in. I can't let... If you let the compliments in, then you're validating the negative. It's just like... I don't know. Oh, yeah. No, it's the worst. I can't let compliments in. I can't let... Like, if you let the compliments in, then you're sort of validating the negative.

It's just like... I don't know. It won't last long. You let the compliments in. They'll go away naturally. Whatever you... I really have to... You have to stop them from coming in.

The first negative thing that'll happen, it'll erase all the compliments. I know this about myself. This is why I just, like, shut off notifications. I was like... No, just take the compliments and realize, like, this is only going to last about 40 seconds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take them with a... I know this about myself. This is why I just shut off notifications. No, just take the compliments and realize this is only going to last about 40 seconds. Where's the bad one? Where's the bad one? Oh, yeah.

All right. Well, I hope everyone loves it. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Well, there you go. That felt whole, and we definitely had a great conversation, but it was bugging me.

So I had her back, and we did another... I'm sure Brendan wasn't thrilled to have another half hour of content to edit, but I had to have her back to talk about specifically dirty comedy, blue comedy, smart filth, and the female point of view of that in this second piece. This is me and Jacqueline again. You know, during awards season

and Sundance Instagrams from IndieWire, it's these times where I realize I'm not in real show business. Now, is it because there's all these people, like, they can't show up because they're, like, doing, or is it just seeing it all unfolding? No, it's like, you know, I had all those dreams. Where am I? But I'm on the sidelines doing this. This is my show business. Right. Now, is it but you are in your like, what's the piece?

Like, what's the piece is missing? Direct writing and directing. Well, that's going to happen. Yeah, but it's at a certain level. I had this discussion. You know, it's either like there's some part of me that thinks that because of my particular insecurities, I have manifested my talent in a way that would guarantee me not being the big time. No, no.

Okay. I want to go so hard into this. Really? Yeah, yeah. This is my favorite shit. When an inside job is required of me, it's a tedious. Inside. Yeah.

Like if I'm going to get what I need. Yes. In terms of approval. Yes. Self-worth. Yes. From within me. Inside as in.

The inside job. The interior. Yes. Okay. Got it. It's a tall order. Yeah. Yeah.

I need external shit all the time. Yes, yes. And I pretend like I don't. Yes. Actually admitting that you want the shit you want. Yeah, and then just going for it, I think, has value. Like being like, fuck it. Like manifesting.

Yeah, but the thing is like manifesting this kind of stuff where people say that works, where you sort of, you really kind of connect with your- No, no, yeah. The will or the magic. Yeah. Like this one requires hiring people. No, absolutely. This requires aligned action is what the manifest community would say, right?

I don't know. Is that- Yeah, no, yeah. This shit is like my shit. Really? Not so much manifesting- Aligned action. Word manifesting is kind of tainted by

the secret and that whole thing. Yeah. But I go back to these kind of old, like these 1920s, like Alistair Crowley, like magic? Well, a little bit, actually. But these new thought, ambitious, like, I'm going to become a railroad titan, guys. That shit, I

like that. Aligned action. That seems like... Aligned action that seems like aligned action is that's more like an la like term i know but that seems to reveal the racket of of the uh of this of the thing right like you know you can manifest it but there's aligned action needed oh you mean you actually have to work for it so this is you're full of shit right no you know what no but here's what i think it is this is the key key. This is the thing. Yeah. You have to find enough self-worth to be willing to take the action. I can't even find enough self-worth to feel comfortable with eating bread for three days in a row.

I'm in the same boat. I'm debilitated. I got tricked by a roll. I'm totally debilitated right now by carb shame. Okay, so what, this is really what we came back to talk about. What got you? Well, you know, it only takes 48 hours, by the way, to get the carbs out. The blood sugar spikes and the craving. I don't know.

I just kind of drifted. I was tired. I've been exercising too much. And then there was, you know, I'd made some spreads. So then I bought a Persian bread and that all went. I'm always embarrassed by how much I want to sit around and talk about carbs. Like I could talk about like, it's like, it's like, so I'm not. It's not exciting.

And you're not an artist. I'm like, I'm not an artist. If I, you know, it's like, this is what makes us who we are. This is the machinery of art. Yes. In order to stay just stable enough. But let's talk about this blowjob situation because the reason I felt bad, or not bad, but like—because I like this special a lot, but I also like—you know, when I was coming up,

there were just a couple of—if you worked blue, you were a blue guy. And there's not—in the big picture, there's not that many blue acts. I think maybe during the time of the comedy boom, it was, you didn't do it and the guys that did it were known for doing it. Fine. Right. But what I've noticed over the arc of what's happening with women in general and with men in relation to it is that women are taking the lead in filth. And I'm all for it, but I've noticed it in a real way with young female comics just being dirty as fuck.

Yeah. And I think men have conversely become nervous about being dirty because they're going to be judged in a certain way. Totally, totally. So now it's like just the Wild West for female filth. No, no, that's very interesting. Although I think like I would argue like those men being nervous about it. Like no one's actually coming for them being filthy on stage.

No one's ever minded it, right? Like they're nervous. I don't guess so. Like, I don't know, like maybe. I'm speculating. They're just, yeah. No, no, no, yeah. As am I. They're nervous that it's like, I don't know, like maybe. I'm speculating. They're just, yeah. No, no, no, no. Yeah.

As am I. They don't want it to land the wrong way. You know, maybe I'm wrong. No, no, no. I think, I think that's like, and do you kind of think it's, well, well, what I'm, perhaps what I'm sort of like pushing back against is, do you see it as sort of like free pass, right? For the women?

Like, oh, they just get to, because sometimes there is. No, no, no. I don't see that at all because it's not easy for women to be dirty and to be, for the women. No. Oh, they just get to. Because sometimes there is this. No, no, no. I don't see that at all because it's not easy for women to be dirty and to connect. And it's never been. Which is what people sometimes say. Like, oh, this sort of like a woman. I mean, literally, if anyone's ever said shock value to me about this, I'm like, I do everything in my power to make this as boring as fucking possible in this other way. You know what I mean?

Right. No, it's not a shock value thing. I'm like, if you think this is shocking, like, this is the most prude, like. Approach. Yeah. Like, it's the prudest approach. It's almost a clinical approach. Yeah, clinical.

The entire show is based around learning how to give a blowjob, really. Yes, yes. A quest, yeah. A quest for the blowjob queen. Yeah, but really as a, you know, like nothing actually really happens in the story, right? It's like all just kind of, there's almost no events. It's kind of just my changing thoughts over the time. There's some events.

I mean, you keep it going. No, no, yeah. You finally do the first one. It's not, yeah. And then you do many. Yeah. And then there's a revelation in the third act that you may not be as great as you thought you were. Yes.

No, there's definitely an arc. Some self-exploration around the intention of having the responsibility of being the blowjob queen. Yes, yes. It's a reckoning. It's a, you know, it operates on a few levels but i think that the the the great thing about it is that i don't as a man i don't hear that side of it you know i know my side i remember my first blowjob it was a miracle yeah it was a miracle yeah well the neurotic i guess what it is is like yeah, the side of it that's this, the neurotic, like what always struck me was I kind of knew as a teen, like I knew that it was supposed to be like everything at that time.

It's supposed to sort of be this like unselfconscious, just living and that then you're going to recall that, you know. Well, that's how it was presented to you. call that you know well that's how it was presented to you but like if you think about it anybody who went through the sort of or like come you know getting to that point where you take action yeah like that is it's never casual right and i guess like that kind of like like movies like kind of like the the male nervous teen like comedy right like it's kind of like, I don't know, like American Pie or something. That kind of thing has been a little, like just the teen girl as the prize rewarded to the male character. Right. It's not the female point of view.

Yeah. But in terms of addressing, that's an interesting thing that the idea that women get a pass on this stuff because men have had it had it for so long i don't think yeah i'm i don't think filth is easy for anybody i don't think it's easy to do uh to do it smartly or to do it well i think there is shock oriented dirty comedy yeah but i don't think like they used to talk about it like it was some kind of crutch and i'm like you try it it's not easy that's exactly it yeah and because, well, even like the thing is like I cringe almost when it's reflected back to me like that my show, like if it's like, oh, it's about blowjobs or like I for one say like I always like adjust the language and say the blowjob. Yeah. I'm like, no, it's about the blowjob, like an idea, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

And then like when there's stuff about like they're like the penis, oh oh like your shows between i'm like literally horrified like i've certainly never set out to like i have no interest in like telling jokes about like the penis do you know what i mean like that is so it's but because i'm talking about this one thing it comes up and then surprise i have ideas on it yeah and things i want to say and like point out, you know? And so I'm like horrified when almost they're like, I don't know, like the headline, like trolls, the penis. I'm like, ugh, like if I were not me and I was reading about this special. That's what someone said about you? It was like, yeah.

And it's sort of like the opposite. I mean, I'm trying to, I mean, who knows what I'm trying to do? You know, it's like. No, it's a story. Talking about one's work is hell. I mean, it's fine, but. No, but I mean, who knows what I'm trying to do. You know, it's like. No, it's a story. Talking about one's work is hell. I mean, it's fine. No, but I mean, you put together a story. It's jokes that are put together as a show about, you know, coming of age show, really, around sexuality and around blowjobs.

Fine. But, like, my point in talking about it more specifically is I think that blue comedy or what it used to be called blue comedy, I think it's a great thing. And it was always kind of a great thing. And I like the fact that if you're getting that response where, you know, women are cringing or people are judging, you know, however they're coming at it, it's provocative. I can't believe it still is. And that's like almost like, it's more now in a way. Yeah. You mean the post porn?

How is it still interesting? Yeah. Kind of like, and, and I'm almost like, I have, you know, like the embarrassment of not being sort of shocking enough. Like, oh, she like, like the embarrassment of like, oh, does she think she's being radical? Like, Jesus, we've been talking about the bloat. And I'm like, no, I don't. I'm just telling my own, my own thing.

Right. But then, and then, but then there's other things where I will hear like right now, kind of this, like in promoting it, kind of this, like, will they put me on the talk show to talk about it? Yeah. And. Really? Yeah.

So there's a booking issue. How do we do this? Really? So there's a booking issue. How do we do this? And my feeling is like, for one, I feel that people with all manner of filth or whatever in their specials go and promote specials, right? And maybe they play a clip that isn't the filthiest part of the special, right? And it's understood that a comedy special would contain all sorts of things, right? I feel like they think, like, I want to go on the show and talk about blowjobs or something.

It's like, no, I don't. Like, that's them putting on there. Like, I can easily go on this show and talk about, like, how the show's about language and the insufficiency of language. Like, I can do the most pretentious version. Well, you can just do regular panel and just be funny. Right. It's not like you're going to walk out there

with Annie Sprinkle's two-by-four of dildos. Yeah. By the way, back when I was mounting the show, it was like a theater show or whatever, mounting it. But whatever. It's an interesting word. But not in a sexual way. It just makes it sound like there was a bunch of sets. Sure.

You know what I mean? But there was this nightmare moment where these PR guys that were involved in the theater world of it, it was like the New York Times was going to do something about it. And then I saw in an email that they had reached out to the New York Times and made some creative suggestions about the photography. And one was that I'd be eating a hot dog. Right. And one was that they were like, there's this bar and there's a neon sign outside of the bar in downtown. And the neon sign says sex.

And we think you should stand in front of it. And like. There you go. Luckily, like the photo was me in like a white button down looking like utterly studious. Regular photo. And, you know, humorless. And then. But I have a love of, you know, filth in this.

Like I'm kind of like this prudish sensibility who then, of course, loves and appreciates filth. And also, I love the craft. So we were talking about Skanks for the Memories or whatever, but I study those jokes with this seriousness. And I think it's embarrassing when people like are unable to see craft because the content is. Well, that's true. That's insane to me. Well, yeah. But I do think like there's all kinds of sort of unspoken restrictions around how and comedy, how to do comedy and what comedy sells and whatever. But now we're in the age of everybody just finds their own market.

But like dirty comedy, blue comedy has always been around. There's been dirty ladies forever. Yes. Like Belle Barthes. And I think Joan Rivers was pretty filthy. Yeah. He gave her the time. And if you went back to like probably like the vaudevillians and stuff.

They were the dirtiest. Yeah. No, there was a massive coming back around. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, but there was this idea that it's not mainstream and that, you know, it's why Lenny Bruce got into trouble. Right. Right. But there's never been that many smart like Bill Hicks was was totally filthy. Yeah. And in a very kind of lyrical. Right. You know, just, you know, arcing ropes of jizz. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like that kind of stuff. And, you know, for me, it's all,

when I was a kid, it was like, you know, hearing that stuff on records or looking at underground comics or any of that stuff. There was that whole 70s trip that, everything got pretty filthy

in the 70s. Yeah, yeah. But I think that to approach it, I think that's, what's interesting is the idea that I'm seeing a lot more

women do it in a fairly, in all the ways. Right. Like I saw, and to address again, because I don't think I did it, the idea that you get a pass is you don't get a pass, but there is a full spectrum of lady filthy going on, you know, in a way that I hadn't noticed it before. And I think it's relatively new.

I mean, you know, Sarah was always cute and filthy, but now there's some, like I see just really just dirty shit happening. And I like that zone. Yeah. Because it still makes people uncomfortable. I don't know why, but it's probably okay. But sex still makes people sort of uncomfortable when you break through it and you get a type of laughter that's very personal. it and you get a type of laughter that's very personal.

You know, yeah. No, it would be interesting at times, like, just the sort of classic thing of the person that's dead serious and seems like, you know, they're hating the show and the whole thing. And then, like, and I've just sort of accepted, like, oh, right, when my eyes pass over that woman, like, I briefly have this moment of, like, you know, she hates me and whatever. And I'm not expecting, like expecting to, quote, get her. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I do on something and I couldn't believe it.

You know what I mean? I couldn't believe a joke about balls or something literally broke. That got her. Because it feels like a joke about balls. Oh, you notice people in the front row or something? I feel like I could see everyone. I always ask for more light to block them out. Do you like seeing them?

No. I like seeing a couple rows. Yeah. Just so I know I'm performing in front of a crowd. I don't like floating up there in space. It's too weird. I think I like floating a little bit. You do?

Maybe. But you always project. I always project on people what they're thinking. They're not thinking that. They could be thinking about, you know, how they didn't pick something up in the morning. No, I know. The assumption. Now they could be thinking about, you know, how they didn't pick something up in the morning.

No, I know. The assumption, well, the way you kind of, when you're watching anything, like, at least, I mean, TV, anything, kind of slip into these revelations or revel, whatever, of, like, your life in relation to even, like, the most simplistic things being offered up on the TV. Like, just, like, looking at the lamp on their thing and, like, wondering about, like, I don't know what my lamps say about me. Like, it just sort of slipped in and out in this weird way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I'm staring at them.

I just, like, I just think, like, it seems, I think things were a lot filthier at another point in time. And I think maybe this is sort of a contraction

after the pornification of culture. Right, right. That people are like, we've had enough filth. You know, like, we get it. Yeah. Is it necessary? this is sort of a contraction after the pornification of culture right right or like oh yeah you know like yeah we get it yeah is it necessary that kind of thing well when when no it's i mean i'm just thinking about like the dental dam thing or like or the kind of like um there's two because in my mind there's two things happening right with this sort of like

women like let's say like they're becoming comedians, whatever they're, let's just say they're doing it freely. It's like, they might not be experiencing it as they're doing it to be shocking, right? They're like, let's say doing it as observational humor, like to get other, like, let's just say other women who also, you know, like they're just doing observational humor. They were talking the way they might talk among other women, let's say. Sure. And just to, just to completely, you know, like, they're just doing observational humor. They're talking the way they might talk among other women, let's say. Yeah, sure. And just to completely, you know, broadly create a category.

So for them, they're just, it's that, right? Right. And then there's, like, this other segment of the audience is experiencing it at, like, let's just say, like, you and your shock value or whatever, or, like, oh, you think it's real funny to be a woman and talk about dirty things. And they're like, no, I'm just doing observational humor. Like, for those who are also not shocked by it, it's like, who's the comedy facing, kind of?

Yeah. And I felt like when I started out to sort of do, I don't know, filthy humor or whatever you would call it, like, it felt like it had to be avoided because there was this idea that it was, like, it was all in reaction. Somehow that was about being a woman in comedy.

Almost like you were in some way you're there with the boys and you're trying to get in by doing filthy humor. Oh, interesting. So there was this period where it was like to prove you're a real comic, you better be doing jokes about pencils and kind of like this. I think I once overheard someone,

or someone told me they heard someone else say something like, yeah, it's a woman comic. All you need to do is say something embarrassing or something. Yeah. And like, I figured it out. That's what they're all doing.

And I, and I was like, like, but then I get annoyed by the, I have to prove myself by like not talking about these things because of your idea that it's shocking when I don't think it's shocking. Me and my like girlfriends don't think it's shocking. Right.

You know, so then I go back annoyed the other way. Right. And then I'm like, no, fuck you. I am going to do the joke. Yeah. About like sex. And I'm, you know, I always want to do the thing like I just don't want to be slipping into the you're right. I'm going to win you over by not.

Yeah. No, fuck it. Yeah. It's irritating. Push it the other way. It's irritating every way. And when people talk about these people that tell you those things, it'm going to win you over by not. Yeah, no, fuck it. Yeah, it's irritating. Push it the other way. Who the fuck are those people? It's irritating every way. And when people talk about these people that tell you those things,

it's just one person. Who the fuck is that? You know, who the fuck is that guy? You know what I mean? It's like, you know, more damage has been done by one idiot who thinks he knows what he's talking about in a green room. Oh, my God. Then, like, you know, it's like, no, what you got to do.

Half of those people aren't even successful. I know. Big ideas. No, no, what you got to do. Half of those people aren't even successful. I know. Big ideas. No, no, no. This is actually, it's so funny. Because it's like, yeah, me reacting, like me reacting for, you know, 20 years to something Fuck, yeah, to one guy that some idiot said. They used to do it to guys too, though.

Hey, you don't want to go blue, you know. You don't want to go dirty. It's just like, who the fuck are you? There's also something about there being a a term okay like there's something about there being this term for it blue yeah that that gives it like it's it's like comedy jargon yeah right and so comes with it the implication of knowledge of the field right so you know an idiot saying you shouldn't be dirty or whatever i was always offended if someone said potty mouth one time i don't like like you're oh you got quite a potty mouth one time. I was like, oh, you've got

quite a potty mouth. That's infantilizing. I don't think sex stuff is potty. No, it's talking about a thing. Maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of it. I just always liked intelligent blue humor.

I guess maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but I think that when I see women doing it now that it is like, it's interesting to hear all the women laugh and not the dudes when a woman's being dirty. Totally. Well, and because it's, it's like, who's the audience? Yeah. Like I was very aware when I was starting out, it felt like there were these two ways to go sort sort of being prescribed, if you sort of looked at how it was. And it almost felt like, okay, it's either, I don't think it was like, it's below us.

I actually think it was more like, everyone else will think it's a crutch. I think that was the stigma. Like, to prove yourself as a real comic yes it versus this you're a woman so so you you can just get up there and say dirty shit and that is inherently a punch line because uh a woman is the setup yeah and the punch line is that it's dirty yeah right and so it's like the premise you know the premise is a woman and so that to me is like well that i didn't get into this i don't love comedy when i'm watching well the other thing that's kind of interesting is like is like, I didn't get into this. I don't love comedy when I'm watching.

Well, the other thing that's kind of interesting is like, sorry, I can't finish the thought, but just whatever, going one direction. It's like, you know, and this has been said before by a lot of people, I think. But like, let's say a woman watching a male comedian or a woman watching a ton of, you know, stories, you know, movies, whatever, featuring. you know, stories, you know, movies, whatever, featuring. They're used to sort of empathizing with the protagonist that is not their own thing. Yeah, sure. Right, right, of course. And then the same thing with comedy, right?

And then it's like, why aren't they... They've gotten used to their voice not being represented. Yes, and so they're used to, like, almost just, like, empathy. Like, you know, narrative empathy or whatever. And and can laugh and watch like American Pie or something. Let's just say I don't want to. But but and they're laughing with they can extend the empathy to understanding that. And it's almost like the male audience in comedy hasn't been trained to do that. Yeah. There's a conversation about that with with race as well.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're all looking at everything through the sort of cis male white gaze. Yeah, and then trying to avoid being, like, responding directly to that. Like, that's, like, where it becomes who's the audience and, like, whose expectations are you upsetting? So, yeah, that's all I'm talking about is the man thinking you're doing shock humor, The woman thing, in my case, let's say the woman thinking you're doing observational humor. Right. Well, I just think like it's I think it's important, you know, not unlike the Barbie movie. Yes. I haven't seen yet, but yes.

But you're basically doing the Barbie movie of blowjobs. OK. Oh, because we're just representing. We'll be that successful. Well, just representing a spectrum of a certain type of feminism, but also sort of being or doing what i think is like yeah i'm not not feminist but but is like to just treat my own experience yeah i don't think there's any feminist message in yeah yeah in your blowjob story yeah like i i just think that by nature like if people cheer i get uncomfortable do you what I mean? Like that thing where you're like, oh, I got to back off it. It's not ideological.

It's just a full-throated kind of exploration. One of the taglines. Of the taglines. Oh, really? I asked for taglines to see what would come back. You know what I mean? And then I was like, no taglines. No taglines. Forget it.

No, but I mean it's like, you know, it is just a story being told about a specific rite of passage that hasn't really been represented as thoroughly or as funny with a certain honesty. And by nature, it is sexual. And to call it dirty is only to put it in the context of comedy or to call it blue or anything else. It's really not. There's nothing dirty about it other than these are the jokes that have been deemed dirty. When you're talking about fucking or sucking cock or going down on somebody, whatever, that's blue humor. But ultimately, it's just a story.

Well, my parents have seen it like a million times. And did they say things like, which guy was that? Yeah. No, no, they respect it as, you know, that level of memoir where we. Sure. But, you know, like they're kind of like rap on it if someone asks them, you know, like, was that weird for you or something or whatever. Like they're just like, it sounds exactly like her and how she talks about anything.

Like it's just how I think about things. Yeah, yeah. That just happens to be the subject. But it's not like they showed up and suddenly, you know, came to the show and suddenly there was this, like, other quality to me. Right, right, yeah, yeah. Like, it's if they showed up to... Well, that's the thing.

It's not, like, it's not gratuitous. It's not shock value. It's a stand-up show about, you know, that. And I just wanted to make sure we drew attention to that. Like, my grandmother, when my grandmother saw my first special, my HBO half hour, where I said fuck 90 times within the first five minutes. It was so sad because she had all her friends over in Florida. Oh, my God. Incredible.

And I called her. I'm like, what did you think? What did you think? She goes, so filthy. Oh, my God. And I'm like, so sad. Because it wasn't even, it was just me saying fuck a lot. Which isn't, well, that's like, the idea of that being filthy is the next level hysterical.

I mean, you got to make the joke. She's right. But it's like, you know, make the joke. I mean, she's, you know. You mean she's right, like. Do you feel it was too many? It was unnecessary fucking. Was it?

Yeah, yeah. You mean, are you like, are you like, it's lazy? Are you one of those well no i just didn't think about enough and i and i and i'm doing it more now too and i don't think it's lazy like i think i don't think you know i was putting that no no no i know but like i don't think it's like i've been doing more fucks lately like i can go without fucks or well-placed fucks i think it's just a matter of like gratuitous fucks yeah i don't think it's lazy i think I think it's just a matter of like gratuitous fucks.

Yeah. I don't think it's lazy. I think, well, I mean, it's undisciplined. Is that lazy? I think it's rhythmic, right? Sometimes. And I just am tired a little bit of like this thing I would hear through the ages of kind of like, I don't know. It felt like, you know, when there's one talking point kind of, it felt like this one talking point was, well, you know, it's lazy and it's just like, shut it.

Yeah. But then you get stuck in joke structure to a point where, you know, it kind of, you know, it kind of takes the thrill out of it. You know, it's a personal preference. Yeah. I don't think we should. I like it always. Yeah.

I don't think we should talk too much more about it because we're going to give away the whole show. And also my producer will be mad at the, uh, the extra work I'm giving him. I know. I forgot that we're not like give away the whole show. And also my producer will be mad at the extra work I'm giving him. I know. I forgot that we're not settling in for two hours. But I did want to make sure that we talked about the show and what it was about. They need to watch it all the way through. I hear completion rate.

You hear this? Yeah, follow through until the happy ending. Or I'll get buried. Thank you, though. There you go. Again, Get On Your Knees is streaming on Netflix starting tomorrow, January 23rd. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

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It's weird what an echo box can do to a slide guitar. © transcript Emily Beynon © BF-WATCH TV 2021 boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere