WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1507 - Jon Cryer

Episode Date: January 29, 2024

Jon Cryer has been in show business for most of his life and has seen the changes, both rapid and gradual, within the industry. Jon talks with Marc about his early stage work, his breakthrough in film with Pretty in Pink, and his great success on network TV, which he just returned to with the new sitcom Extended Family. They also talk about the wild ride shared by anyone who was in the orbit of his former co-star, Charlie Sheen. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast.

It's Monday. It's Monday, and I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. It's Monday. It's Monday and I'm a little, I'm surprised I'm not more freaked out, but I'm a little, a little freaked out that I may spiral into darkness for a pretty simple reason. So here's what happens. You know what? Let me tell you who's on the show. How would that be? All right. John Cryer is here. He's back on a primetime network TV with a new show called extended family. He's the guy who everyone knows across multiple generations from the Brat Pack movies, from his stage work and from from Two and a Half Men. He's been in show business forever. He's a lifer. He's been working in show business since he was a little kid. A life in show business.

John Cryer came over. Nice guy. Nice to meet him. Good talk. So, look, on Saturday, I went to meet him. Good talk. So look, I, uh, on Saturday I went to San Diego and I was going to take the train down, but, uh, the rains caused a mudslide of some kind, knocked out the tracks. I was looking forward to the train. So then I had to drive. Driving to San Diego is not great. It always takes a lot longer than you think from LA. Should be about two hours.

It's usually three or four hours. And I was dreading it. But I still had the morning open and I wasn't going to work out. I was not going to work out even though I work out compulsively, which is part of the problem that's upon me. I was doing the exercises with my trainer lady, Stephanie. I'm doing, you know, step ups and step downs with weights. And I came down on my foot in a fucked up way and twisted it.

Twisted the foot. And it's not the Hoka sneaker problems. It's not their fault, Hokas. Everyone loves them. But they got that huge, foamy heel. That sole is about two, two and a half inches, it feels like, off the fucking ground, which is great for running. And usually it's fine. And I don't know who to blame.

Me? Not going to blame the sneaker. Maybe I was a little out of it. But I work out constantly. So eventually you're going to get fucked up. I always thought it would be up on that mountain. I thought I'd go tumbling down. Thought I'd break a leg.

Thought I'd break a head. Thought I'd break a collarbone. Who the fuck knows a hip. I thought I'd go tumbling down that mountain. I thought about it all the fucking time. The only injury I've ever had working out is when I smashed my finger between two weights and it got purple and the nail fell off. That's gross, but I can still do the business.

So I twist my foot. Now, it's not my ankle. It's the side of my foot down by my toe. And I swear to God, I came down on it. I heard something pop. But I took the shoe off there in the gym. I elevated it and decided to finish a workout because it's like war, people. It's like a battlefield.

My trainer was like, yeah, it's probably okay. It's probably a sprain. Some guy, Ukrainian guy who's always working out in the gym doing the MMA stuff, he came over and said, be tough. Be strong, whatever, like Eastern European sentiment. Suck it up. Suck it up, you pansy, you old man. But I did. I did suck it up.

But then it always reminds me of those movies where the guy's, you know, gurgling blood and his intestines are hanging out and people are standing over him going, you're all right, man. It's going to be all right. You're fine, dude. Just people who don't know tell me I'm fine. And I want to be fine. You want to be fine. Obviously, I was not on a battlefield, but I did. I don't know if it's a man thing or a stubborn thing or what. It's like, fuck it. I'm going to finish a workout. So I finished a workout.

I wasn't even supposed to work out that day. But now I got to go to San Diego and I hurt my foot and it's starting to swell up and it's not great. And I have time to go to the urgent care and I have time to go to the hospital because I didn't want to get fucked up because I thought, well, if they got to put a cast on this thing or whatever they got to do, it's going to take a couple hours and I got to be on the road and I'm okay. I'm okay. I drove to San Diego and I'm hobbled. I'm limping, but I'm like, it's a sprain. I'll be all right, man. I'm limping on stage two shows had to give people the heads up before I got out there. So didn't freak out. I guess I could have handled it when I got out there,

but I'm hobbling around. I can't put weight on it really on the right side of it. Anyways, the left side's fine. The ankle's fine. Everything's fine. But this right side of my foot, anyways the left side's fine the ankle's fine everything's fine but this right side of my foot which is now swollen as fuck i'm icing it in between shows before the shows doing the shows go back to the hotel and then i go the urgent care i drive up first thing in the morning i go this urgent care that i i go to solace solace health and uh they take uh x-rays. It's fucking broken. I broke my fucking foot. What the fuck am I going to do?

Now, again, I don't see myself as a victim. I'm not freaking out. There is part of me that's like, you weren't even supposed to work out, you idiot. But that kind of shit, that woulda, coulda, shoulda, beating myself up for something that is, there's no bigger waste of time than that thing. And I've got a lot of different, I've got a lot of varieties of beating the shit out of myself going on almost all times. And I just do not waste time with that one. They're like, well, if I only didn't, if I did this, why didn't I do that?

well, if I only didn't, if I did this, why didn't I do that? I never do that one because it really seems ridiculous and not a refined way to beat the shit out of yourself because there's nothing you can do about that one. You know, why not focus on things? I just, there's a whole spectrum of, of beating the shit out of myself. That ain't one of them. But now I got a boot on and I don't know what's going to happen. I got to go to the doc today, orthopedic, hope my plan holds up to see this guy. But apparently the urgent care sent the images to this doc, a foot guy. He saw him and said, well, you can just put the boot on. You're all right to walk out of there. So maybe that means he won't have to set it. I don't know. The doc at the urgent care was like, you know, this kind of break,

you go either way, you might have to dig in there, might have to cut the foot open. My biggest fear is getting your foot cut open. I got two big toes that are fucked. I don't even know why. I don't know if it's arthritis or bone spurs or a bunion, but they've got knobs on the sides of them. And they hurt sometimes, but I just won't deal with it. I'll live with it because I don't want my foot to be cut open because you never

know if that's going to come out right. But now, I'm trying not to freak out. The bigger problems, this could have been worse, could have broke my leg, could have broke my ankle, could have got cancer. It's a million things. Again, not feeling sorry for myself, just a little concerned about my mental health. Now I got this boot on and I can function. I can even drive with it, which is good. And I'm just hoping that today I find out that, you know, we'll just do that. But still could be weeks, could be months for this fucking bone to heal. And how am I not going to exercise?

I exercise like five or six times a week. I could lose my fucking mind, people. I got to figure out a way. Is there some sort of, I remember that there were machines at the gym once where you just used your arms almost kind of like this, uh, this sort of a weighted flailing or this kind of like, uh, this almost like swimming, but I haven't seen one of those around in a while. I guess I'll figure it out. Maybe this is a sign, an indicator. Stay off the mountain. Get on the bike. You held your knees together this long. Don't fuck them up. But now I got a fucking broken foot. God damn it. A broken foot and I can't get sedentary. I can't get strung out on oxycontin.

I'm not in that much pain. I didn't get any painkillers. Relax. Did a little ibuprofen. If I'm not walking on the thing, it doesn't really hurt. And even with the boot, I don't really feel it. God, I just hope I don't have to get surgery. Find out today. More will be revealed, as they say in the recovery racket. But I don't know, man. The sedentary thing, if my brain atrophies into some sort of like, I'll just get my, my brain will get itchy in my head. My being will get itchy in my body. You know, oh my God, I just got to suck it up. Look, I'm an athlete, right?

I'm a, I'm an athlete. And sometimes there are injuries. You get through it, you heal, and then you come back and you get back into shape. Got to stay in that mindset so I don't lose my mind. Oh my God. So I'll be limping at the Castro Theater with a boot on my foot, most likely in San Francisco this Saturday. That's sold out. Portland, Maine, I'll be limping at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Limping in Medford, Massachusetts at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. I'll be hobbling around in Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater

on Saturday, March 9th. Trying to walk in Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia. I'm Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. Maybe I'll feel better by then. Maybe I'll be walking a little better. God damn it. I'm in Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater on Wednesday, April 3rd. Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th.

Chicago at the Vic Theater on Friday, April 5th. Minneapolis at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th. Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival. And I've got shows coming up later in the year in Montclair, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, Charleston, South Carolina, Charlotte, North Carolina, Durham, North Carolina, Vancouver, and Seattle. Probably book more in the fall if you haven't heard your city.

Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets. Oh, my God. What a drag. Maybe I'm in mild shock because maybe I need a rest. How about that spin? Hey, man, maybe your 60-year-old beat-up body needs a little time in general, a little solid recovery time. Maybe you should do some reading, do some writing, do some thinking,

do some guitar playing. Just do it more than you usually do. Catch up on some movies. I started watching Fargo because people talk about it in a very positive way. I haven't watched any of it. I'm almost done with season one. I can barely take it. That kind of stuff.

It's like, how is it going to, how do we fix this? There's a lot of people dead. Oh my God. Another twist. I guess I have to learn how to consider that entertaining as opposed to just anxiety inducing. I want the closure after a certain point. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But how are we going to get this guy? God damn it. I called my dad, my recently demented father, who was an orthopedic surgeon, it's kind of fascinating, you know, as the rest of the brain goes, you start talking doctor shit to him. He's on it.

Like, like he's like when I was a kid with this before, I didn't tell him it was broken yet, but he was, uh, you know, he, he just kind of talked the talk. Well, you check it out. Maybe you got a sprain. You don't know. You see doctors are going to, they're not going to know. And you do what you got to do. Yada, yada. But they did some serious doctor talking.

Pretty impressive. And this is the guy that broke my leg twice. My father, the orthopod, tightened my cub coat bindings too tight when I was in fourth grade and i fell down and had a spiral fracture and they drove me home in the back of a blazer in the back back because we had other people in the car laid me out in the very back like by you know where the gate opens in the back by the tire bouncing down the mountain in a fucking wooden splint with a spiral fracture on my right tibia. Horrendous. Had a cast up to my balls for months, then another cast below my knee for months, and I kept fucking up. These were plaster casts, back in the day casts. Then my dad ran over my foot when I was getting out of a car, squashed my ankle, both on the right foot.

Now I've got this broken bone in my foot on the right. He had nothing to do with it. I did this all by myself. Oh, but all that aside, the shows were good up there at the Observatory North, which is a strange carnival like venue. Apparently one of the first sound movie theaters. But oddly, the sound is a little a little hollow in there. Kind of, you know, you feel a little distance from it goes right up to the top. I guess back in the day, you know, movies were just they weren't worried about acoust acoustics. It was about the spectacle and they just considered like, well, it's amplified. We're not playing music in here. And, uh, ceilings are very high, but, uh, you get the hang of it.

I remember from last year, I was there with Pavitsky this, uh, this time I was there with Taylor Williamson. He did good. See, he's going to go up to San Francisco with me as well. Looking forward to San Francisco. Looking forward to being there, seeing what's up. I live there. It's a fairly influential place for me. Going to do that screening of McCabe and Mrs. Miller on Sunday at the Roxy. Going to go up on Friday.

Maybe have something to eat with my buddy Jack. Take a couple days in SF. We'll see. All right, so look. That's what's going on. Broken foot. We'll see how that affects my sanity. Maybe you'll hear me in a couple weeks just be like,

I don't know, you guys. I'm losing my will to press on. Been on the couch too long. Elevated. Ice packs. Sanity. I'm breaking. I'm breaking. I'm breaking.

Okay, so our next guest, hope it doesn't come to that. We'll see. All right, so John Cryer came to my house. His new show, Extended Family, airs Tuesday nights on NBC and the next day on Peacock. And we had a lovely chat.

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by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. John Cryer. A life in show business. Yes. A life in show business. That's where you're at now. That's where I'm at now. Yeah. Yeah.

It has been a fair amount of that there show business. Isn't that crazy? It is crazy. But I never wanted anything else. Right. Well, you were young, but it's weird when you get to a certain age, which I'm at and you're approaching. What are you, like 57? I am 58.

58. So I just turned 60. And I do not have the profile that you have, but I have a life in show business. I would argue in many ways you have a different profile. Yes, yes. I think you have enormous respect yeah in the industry you are your uh people speak of you uh reverently that scares me because you know how quickly that can go away uh-huh it was just enjoy it now man one wrong move

exactly a lifetime is worth the respect. Down the toilet. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of astounding because of everything at the level you've been working, though. Just the changes that have happened. It's crazy. It's crazy. And I actually had one of those great old-time geezer conversations with a guy named Peter Roth, who used to be the president of Warner Brothers Television. Right, right. And he's kind of a revered guy in the business. Is he doing a podcast?

He is not doing a podcast. He should, actually, because he knows everybody. He's done this forever. And he was wildly successful in that job. And he also was famous because he maintained good relationships with talent, even though he very often had to say, I'm sorry, we're canceling your show. But he didn't say, you fucking asshole. No, he didn't.

But occasionally he did. Usually that was when he was negotiating contracts and such. But he managed to walk an interesting tightrope because he still retained a remarkable amount of goodwill, even though he could be a very fierce negotiator and he cranked out hits at Warner Brothers, God bless him. But we were talking about- Did he produce your show? Yes. Yes. Two and a Half Men happened while he was there. And also I did a couple of shows at Fox when he was at Fox. So long relationship.

Yeah, we worked together a lot. But we were trying to figure out what was the longest period of stability in the television industry. And it was probably the three-network period from the introduction of color television through Fox, the Fox network. That was probably— Mid-'60s? Yeah. Yeah, so that's maybe 19, 15 years, something like that. That was probably- Mid-60s? Yeah. So that's maybe 19, 15 years, something like that. But that was it. I mean, the rest of the time, the business of entertainment has been an incredible flux.

Right. From the talkies, from black and white. I mean, it's never been stable. Yeah, but it was a smaller business. Yes. So now, like, whether it's, I think it's hard to determine stability across the board because everything's so fragmented. Yeah. So, you know, it's weird that mainstream show business, or what you've been living in, is sort of this bubble almost.

Yeah. There's all these of this bubble almost. Yeah. There's all these other things going on. Yes. And we're trying sort of to stay relevant in the wider culture. Right. But does anybody care anymore? Yeah. Do people see movies?

I mean, by the way, I loved your Greta Gerwig episode on the podcast. Mostly because it just, to look at a pop cultural thing and see all the many layers, that there's very real layers to a pop cultural thing. That's right. It was really impressive. Right. I really enjoyed that one. And the way it has to, thank you, and the way it has to sort of, you have the main layer,

which is like you put it out there. This candy-coated, lovely. But then there has to be these other viral layers that you have no control over. Yes. And you hope they trend your way. Yes. Right? And then you get that other layer of people seeing it.

But there seems to be a good portion of the population globally that will not see anything. No. Unless they're kind of guided there by some hashtag or viral momentum. Yes. Because you don't even know it's out there. No. Because there's so much. Right. And it's all some hashtag or viral momentum. Yes. Because you don't even know it's out there. No, because there's so much. Right. And it's all so balkanized. Yes.

It's all, you know, you can get exactly the little tiny slice niche thing that you want. Right. And you can fill your life with that and never see the rest of it. Sometimes that's bad. Yeah. Sometimes it is bad. I do miss the days of broadcast television when it was automatically a cultural thing. Yeah.

Like the day after. The water cooler moment. Exactly. Yeah. That movie was a movie that traumatized a generation. Sure. The post-nuclear movie back in the day. Was that on TV?

It was on TV. Right. My point being there was a time when it was incredibly culturally relevant because everybody saw it. Everybody was freaked out about the same thing. Now everyone has a niche freak out. Yes. You get to choose which thing you panic over. And sometimes no one knows what you're talking about.

No. No, it's true. It's true. But it's interesting because now I'm doing a show on broadcast TV again. I watched it. I watched the first two episodes. Oh, thank you for checking it out. Yes.

Yes. Thank you. And I literally texted my two episodes. Oh, thank you for checking it out. Yes. Yes. Thank you. And I literally texted my, and this is not meant as an insult. I texted my producer. I'm like, I didn't even know they were still making shows like this.

And that was part of the intent. Oh, really? Was let's do a throwback, old school, multicam sitcom in front of an audience, just a family show. Yeah, you walk through the door. Yes. The first beat is like just a family show. Yeah, you walk through the door.

Yes. The first beat, it's like, he's on the phone, he enters the main guy. Yes, and the first episode is literally a dead goldfish, which is just like one of the tropiest, sitcom-iest things. But that was part of it. The fun was, let's do our version of that. Yeah. It's kind of the aristocrats of the sitcom world.

You know, we're at the very beginning of this show. I'm thrilled that it, you know, got sampled really well. It did? Yeah, yeah. How does that work? Because they promoted it during football. Okay. Which is the only thing that actually does have cultural impact nowadays.

But you're going week to week, right? Yes. Well, yeah, it's got cultural impact and now Taylor Swift's on board. She's shifting the eyes again. She is. God bless her Taylor Swift's on board. She's shifting the eyes again. She is. God bless her. It's all her. She's driving the entire thing.

Yes, good for her. You got to thank Taylor Swift for anything. No quarrel with Taylor. I will thank her when I meet her. Okay, yeah. Although I met Billie Eilish. Well, I wanted to meet Billie Eilish. She and Phineas were standing there and I was so terrified of scaring her

that I walked over to Phineas and said I just want you to know that you did a wonderful episode of a podcast that I listened to called Song Exploder and you guys did

a wonderful job on that show and thank you for doing it because it meant a lot to me and then I turned to Billy and she was talking to somebody else and I was like

damn I missed my Billy Eilish moment where was this this was at the People's Choice Awards. Recently? Yes. And you didn't get it?

And I blew it. I blew it. I'll never have a chance again. And that's fine. But you're John Cryer. You could have just followed her around a little bit. Well, no, it's creepy whenever anybody does it. But at any rate.

But you're established on creepy. I hope so. But no, I got to figure that a lot of people that we now realize were actually creepy had we had thought were established non-creepy a long time ago. So I'm exactly the kind of person that people are looking askance at. Oh, that's right. That's right. And that's fine. I don't know. Are you making that up?

Is this something you're projecting? Probably. I project a lot. I do that a lot. You do? I don't know. Are you making that up? Is this something you're projecting? Probably. I project a lot. I do that a lot. You do? I do, too. It's amazing. If we can only use that creative force differently.

If I always think, like, what my mind makes up on its own, if I could harness that energy and direct it to something proactive, that's amazing what I could do. Exactly. You'd be curing everything. All diseases. I'd take that energy and direct it to something proactive. Amazing what I could do. Exactly. You'd be curing everything. Oh, everything. All diseases. Instead, just paranoid and freaked out. Yes.

Nope. Nope. But it works for your comedy. Sure. It does. It does most of the time. Sometimes it's a little much. Yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes people are like, ah, he's really going overboard with this. Yeah. He needs a little help, I think. A lot of us who are involved in comedy, I remember I said I got to end rehearsal early because I got to go to therapy, and they said, don't fix anything we can use.

When was this? This was a couple of shows ago. Okay. But there is that age-old thing. The producers of the show, a guy named Jeff Greenstein, said that to me. Yeah. And he and I have remained friends.

But he's joking, kind of. He was joking. Like anybody can fix it that quickly. Yes. Yeah, you come back from therapy. Guess what, guys? Not funny anymore. Finally happened.

I'm all better. I'm all better. But that is like a thing that people in comedy sort of battle. Because, you know, we have mental health problems as much, if not more, than everybody else. I wonder. And there's that whole thing like, you know, that helps us, that helps our art. Yeah, but no one does it on purpose. I've never met anybody that nurtures that shit.

No. I mean, I know plenty of people that don't want to get help, but it's not because their art's doing so well. Rarely. Rarely. Maybe once in a while. But it's usually just because they're like, they don't think they need help. Or they're lazy. They're just lazy.

Or they're not identifying the problem. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Like, I'm confronted with this idea lately about myself that I don't know if I can do a funny character outside of me. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, because there is, like, you have physical comedy chops. if I can do a funny character outside of me. Do you know what I mean?

Like, because there is, like, you have physical comedy chops. You're used to being in a three-camera situation where the expectations are fairly specific. You know, here's the line. 90% of them are jokes or setups. And you hold the line, you know, and you do the thing. Like, there's some part of me that wonders, you know, is my comedic voice, can I apply it to that and be a little more of a caricature of myself?

Are you aware of that? Yeah. Or is that just an actor thing? You can, I believe you absolutely can. Yeah. It's really, as you know, about the writers capturing that in an accurate way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That can just play a little broader.

Yeah, yeah. Slightly, you know. Yeah. But absolutely. Yeah, I just always wonder, because when I try to do physical comedy, which I have, I have to orchestrate it. I have to really, I'm not a natural physical comic. It's really hard. It's really hard.

Because you have to, like I remember I did a movie called Hot Shots. Oh, yeah, sure. Years ago. It was a takeoff on Top Gun. That wasn't the first time you met to, like, I remember I did a movie called Hot Shots. Yeah. Oh, yeah, sure. Years ago. It was a takeoff on Top Gun. That wasn't the first time you met Charlie, though, was it? That was the first time I met Charlie Sheen. Interesting. Okay.

He was still in his party phase. Wasn't that on and off until a year ago? Yeah. Until last week? What? But he used to show up with Ginger Lynn, the very famous porn actress, who is, by the way, lovely and very nice. Sure. And petite, by the way.

Neither here nor there. But we had a physical bit in that that was a fascinating – because I was working with – Jim Abrams directed that of Abrams. because I was working with Jim Abrams directed that of Abrams and there's a bit in the movie where my character ejects from his plane and lands safely but then gets beat the shit out of while he's being

taken to the hospital because his parachute gets caught on the back bumper of an ambulance and he gets dragged all the way to the hospital and you know the irony being that is where he made the landing but didn't make the ride to the hospital. Yeah. And, you know, the irony being that that is where. He made the landing. Exactly. Didn't make the ride to the hospital. But the joke of it was I was supposed to be so beat up that I stand up after having been

dragged for miles behind this ambulance. They say, are you okay? Wash out. And I say, oh, I thank you, Andre. I'll have the veal piccata. And then I fall, you know, like. And we, the first time we shot it, I said, well, I thank you, Andre. I'll have the veal piccata. And then I fall, you know, like a. And we, the first time we shot it, I said, why, thank you, Andre. I'll have the veal piccata.

Just absolutely straight because you got to be straight because you're doing one of those movies. Yeah. And I just, I fell out of frame and didn't get to laugh. And we were like, well, what the fuck? And we realized it was my eyes tracking ever so slightly to the left right before I fell. We had to go through the tape, like the fucking Zapruder film. Figure the fucking Zapruder film and figure out what was killing the joke every time. Yeah. You know, and it comes down to remarkably precise and specific things.

Isn't that wild? Yeah. Yeah, because when I did a physical bit on my last special, I had to really run it and figure out the physical beats. Where there are some guys that it just seems they're just naturally physically gifted with comedy not that they wouldn't have to orchestrate something like you're talking about but there is a a timing that has to be worked out yeah even like i would imagine it happens on the tv set all the time even if it's a double take or a walk back in right 100 100 and you hope that you don't overthink it.

Yeah. But your job is to get it right, you know? Yeah. Speaking of Abrams, how funny was fucking Leslie Nelson? Holy shit. Jesus Christ. Talk about unleashing a comedic tsunami that you did not expect was there. I just saw some Instagram reel of him.

It was something like he's talking to some woman. Your dog's got a very interesting face. And she's like, well, that's his ass. And he's a bit something like, well, he's not going to like that treat I just fed him. Well, the wonderful thing about Leslie Nielsen was that he did so many serious potboiler dramatic roles before he started doing funny stuff. But just like a regular working actor guy. Like not somebody you'd necessarily single out. And so it was a complete surprise that he was hiding this thing.

Did you work with him? I've never worked with him. No. He carried that fart machine, that fart bag everywhere. Yes. I interviewed him once a million years ago. The farts just kept coming. God bless him and his fart machine, that fart bag everywhere. Yes. I interviewed him once a million years ago. The farts just kept coming. God bless him and his fart machine.

Well, but the thing about that is, he's sort of like Rip Taylor with the confetti, which was one of my favorite. Not as subtle. My favorite Los Angeles moment was I went to see a local production of Evita that a friend of mine was in. I went to see a local production of Evita that a friend of mine was in. And at the end of the show, for some reason, he took his bow and then he decided to introduce Rip Taylor in the audience. And, of course, the plume of confetti came. Rip Taylor was ready. Sure.

Even though, how would he know? He just walked around with pockets full of confetti. Full of confetti at all times. Had to have it. In case he needed to do that. But at any rate, Les Nielsen was obviously, I believe, you know, his deadpan was so amazing. And, you know, he could be so serious. And that was what made all that. Sure.

Well, I think, I mean, like Sheen was kind of a surprise too when he went comedy, right? Absolutely. When he took that turn. Yeah. He was nice, too, when he went comedy, right? Absolutely. When he took that turn. Yeah.

And really gifted at sitcom, which is another, which is a different thing than being funny in movies. Yeah. You know, sitcom requires a certain staginess. Just, you know, things have to be amplified just slightly, but they can't be too much. Yeah, somehow it's a very delicate thing to deliver those lines and have the characters so defined that they don't stand out as jokes and like there's a groove to it. Yeah, absolutely. And I've noticed that a lot, that the thing about sitcoms is the character is everything. It has to, because that's the delivery device. So if there's any sort of waffling or if it's not defined enough, you're just sort of like this guy's just saying jokes.

Yeah. Yeah. Again, it's one of those things that until you see it done badly, you don't go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it doesn't occur to you, oh, wait, the people that do this well. Yeah. And then there's amazing actors like Laurie Metcalf, who's got that thing where she can be an amazing stage actress, an amazing film actress, or Allison Janney. These people who can also 100% deliver in sitcom. Well, on some level, it's part of the job.

Yeah. It is a job. It's an acting job. Yeah. You do all the things. Yeah. And you can't be above it. No, that's true.

I mean, there's plenty of people that are, I guess. But that makes it no fun, I think. No, but I mean, but was this, but the plan for you, I mean, did you see yourself as this? You mean like originally? No, no. I wanted to be a movie director, actually, when I first. Really? Yeah. I fell in love with movies. I loved science fiction movies. Star Wars.

Where'd you grow up? I grew up in New York City. Really? My parents were theater actors, and my mom actually was a playwright as well. Your dad was a theater actor, successful theater actor. Yes. What was the big plays? What would you go see him in when you were a child? I saw him do Evita on Broadway. He did like Leonard Bernstein's Mass, which was a big thing at the time he did that.

He did 1776 for a while on Broadway. Was that represented in Maestro? You know what? I haven't seen the movie yet. I think it was. Is that the one they did at the church? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. It's in there. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well, yeah. I mean, and my stepmother, who, you know, my my dad's wife after my mom. Yeah. Who I'm very, very close to. She worked with Bob Fosse a lot. So, you know, so I still see all the the pop culture.

My you know, my parents have this connection to this to the pop culture in a very fun way. Yes. New York in the 70s when it was was exciting and fun and everybody. And decadent. Oh, totally decadent. And bonkers. Yeah. So they were all moving through the house? They were all there. Yes, yes.

I remember my mom, because she was a playwright, used to have readings in her house. And I remember one day I came home from school and Al Pacino was in my house. And I was like, what the? Wow. Okay, hi. I spoke to him not at all. Sure. But it was otherworldly.

So you're like how old? I would have been probably like 13, 12 or 13 at that point. So enough to have seen him in The Godfather perhaps? Yeah. Yes. Probably. I can't remember when that came out. It was absolutely post-Godfather.

That's a trip, man. Yeah. He was already huge. It was not like he was a young aspiring actor. And he was just hanging around? He was already huge. Hanging around the house? Yeah, he does readings a lot.

He does plays a lot. He likes. He likes to stay engaged? Yeah, he stays engaged. So you're growing up in that. How many siblings? I had, well, I had one biological sibling, but also when I was around 12 or 13, my sister's best friend moved in with us. And she lived with us for so long, we consider her a sister for all intents and purposes.

But did she, were you saving her? Was it a rescue situation? Yes, it was a religious, we were converting her to Islam. No, what happened was she, no, her mom was getting remarried to a guy who lived in Trinidad. Oh, and they just left her there. And she didn't want, no, she wanted to go to music and art, which was part of the performing arts high school in New York. And that was her dream to sing at music and art. So she just wanted to stay for a couple of years.

But then her mom's marriage, unfortunately, did not last. And then her mom moved back to England and she was just staying with us. And by then she was going to college in upstate New York. So it was just like, she's ours now. So just one sister and your sister's friend in the house and a lot of art. And a lot of art. And it always felt full of music. My mom was also a composer and a Are they still around? Yeah. Yeah. Both of my parents are still around. They're doing good?

And my mom, yes, they're both doing good health-wise. My mom is still writing a lot, still writes a lot of plays. And we're trying to get a couple of them produced, actually, right now. Out here? Or in general? Just in general. One in Chicago and another one we don't know where yet. But she also, she's producing a show that's going to be out here.

No kidding. She's very. Now, does she cast you? She asks me to do stuff with her all the time. We love working together. We do have a fun time. But she'll also ask me when I'm not right for the role. Oh, really? And I have a fun time. Yeah. But she'll also ask me when I'm not right for the role, mom.

Oh, really? You gotta tell her? And I have to tell her that, you know, sometimes. And her name is Gretchen Cryer. She wrote I'm Getting My Act Together and Taking It on the Road,

which is probably her most famous show. Yeah, yeah. She wrote a sequel to it and she wanted me to play the manager in it. And the whole point is the manager

is this super slick, kind of, you have to get the sense of that he was a super good looking guy back in the day. And I was like, that's not me, mom. I love you. I love you.

Thank God, God bless you for thinking of me that way. But that's not me. But we've worked together on a couple of plays. She actually, she and her writing partner were the first all-female creative team to have a Broadway show, actually, which a show called Shelter in the 70s, which only unfortunately ran for a couple of months.

But we did a reading of it at 54 Below. So we she and I have worked together. That's interesting. And was that the first time it had been kind of unearthed? Yeah. Yeah. We were hoping to get an Encores version going, which we may at some point. And how was the language and the ideas in it?

Did it all hold up? Oh, my God. It absolutely did. Because in the 70s, a lot of critics derided it because it was a story about a TV producer who has created inside his television studio his own world. He has a computer that talks to him and it creates kind of a virtual reality for him. Yeah. And in the 1970s, they were like, that's ridiculous. Yeah. This is crazy science fiction. This is crazy science fiction. Yeah.

But the show is called Shelter. But now it's sort of like what's happening everywhere. Absolutely. I mean, there's some paleozoic sexual stuff in there. But the show, by and large, about a guy just making this world for himself and then just consigning himself to it and sort of withering away because of it is, I think, very relevant. I never really thought about that, you know, with plays, that you're kind of bringing this sort of ghost to life every time you do one. Yeah. It's kind of interesting.

And how is it going to reverberate this time? You know, and what's going to be slightly different about it this time? eight this time, you know, and what's going to be slightly different about it this time. I mean, I, I, you know, that, that's a lovely thing about performing plays too, is that every night is somewhat different. You know, they're never exactly the same. You did plays early on, right? Yeah. And that like, you know, cause I have this, I'm having this thing as I'm whatever age

I'm at, 60, where I have to really, you know, figure out whether I'm, what I, what I'm at, 60, where I have to really figure out whether I'm – what I'm thinking about doing is something I really want to do or something Fantasy Mark thinks he can do. Am I just totally deluding myself that I can do this? Right. Is that something I really want to – like this idea – like I was going to move to New York. And I'm like in my mind, what a great place to get old. I'll just be engaged.

I'll go to museums. You could get on the subway. You don't need to drive. You don't need to, yeah. When I lived there, when I was younger, I didn't do that shit. So I really had to reel in fantasy, Mark, and realize. Well, my mom is 88 and lives in New York City in the Upper West Side of Manhattan. She loves it. Lo is 88. Yeah. Lives in New York City in the Upper West Side of Manhattan. She loves it.

Thick of it. Loves it. Yeah. And again, as I said, you are revered in comedy circles. Yeah. I believe you would be all right there. Well, maybe it's still not a dream. But I recently expressed interest in doing a play until I realized, well, you're going to workshop it for four weeks in Chicago.

And then we'll see if we can get a run in New York. And all of a sudden, it's six months. Yeah. And I don't live an actor's life. So for me, six months, it's like, that's a long time. Yeah. And you're hoping for that scenario. Right.

You're hoping that it runs a long time. Yeah. So what were the plays you did early on? It's so funny because I talked to Fisher Stevens. Yes. Fisher and I, we batted around in a lot of the same roles. That's so funny because I talked to Fisher Stevens. Yes, Fisher and I, we batted around in a lot of the same roles. Right, that's what I mean. Yeah, because I did a little research and you're both kind of Broderick

in the wings of Broderick. We were Matthew Broderick adjacent at the time. Interesting. Yeah, he and I, I followed him in Torch Song Trilogy on Broadway. Fisher or Matthew? Fisher Stevens. And he followed Matthew? Was Matthew in it? He followed Matthew in Brighton Beach Memilogy on Broadway. Fisher or Matthew? Fisher Stevens. And he followed Matthew? Was Matthew in it? He followed Matthew in Brighton Beach Memoirs.

However, I was Matthew's understudy in Brighton Beach Memoirs before that. So how did Fisher get the gig and not you? Fisher got, well, oh, there's drama. Oh, old drama. I was Matthew's understudy for six glorious weeks. Yeah. First and foremost, when you're a Broadway understudy, this was my first job. So I didn't know that part of the requirement of Broadway understudy is that you get very little rehearsal, but you're expected to know all the lines.

Right. but you're expected to know all the lines. And I thought that I would get, that I'd be going to work every day with the other understudies, but occasionally with the main cast members. Sure. And that we'd all get good at this at the same time. Yeah.

That is not how it works. How old were you? I was 18. Okay. And actually, I should have asked my parents about this. Yeah, good resources right in the house. You get the job and you just kind of go with it, you know. But what I did not know was you only rehearse two times a week.

Yeah. So that's two times a week you get to do this. And you're expected to watch the show every night and learn all the lines. And stage movement. And stage movement. And learn all the lines. And stage movement. And stage movement.

But that particular part, Matthew Broderick's part in Brighton Beach Memoirs, was bigger than Hamlet. It's an enormous role. He has multiple, multiple monologues. He's monologuing the whole time. The whole time. It's from his point of view. So it was huge. It was a huge part. Yeah. And about four weeks into the show, into my being his understudy, he won the Tony for best actor, which raised the pressure on the whole situation quite a bit.

Because now everybody who's showing up is, you know, showing up to buy a ticket is expecting the guy who won the Tony. And if he's not on, a guy who's good enough to win a Tony in his place. And so, I would say after about six weeks, I did a run through with the director finally. I had never even met the director.

Who was the director? Jim Sachs. Yeah. Who's an incredibly gifted Broadway director. Yeah. And he, he passed away,

obviously, but, but, you know, he was still alive when this happened. and I did my run through for him. But I had to call line a few times because I was still bumpy. I'd only rehearsed twice a week. So that's 12 days of rehearsal. Yeah. You know. Right. That I that I had. So I was still a little bumpy after the show. I asked the stage manager, hey, any notes from Gene?

He was like, no, no notes. I was like, ah, and, um, uh, the next day I get a call from my manager. Uh, you don't have to show up to work today. Uh, and he told me I got fired. Uh, and, uh, uh, I called Gene and he said, and to his credit, he took the call and he said, you know, you have to be ready, you know, and Matthew won the Tony two weeks ago. You know, I can't, you know. And so he was right. He was absolutely right. And they fired me for an absolutely valid reason. And how'd you take it? Crushed. Crushed.

Absolutely crushed. But then Torch Song Trilogy needed somebody to take over for Fisher Stevens, who was leaving. And so literally that night, the night I got fired from Brighton Beach, I got offered Torch Song Trilogy, which, you know, I vowed, boy, I'm going to learn the lines. Sure. That's for sure. Less monologuing. Less monologuing is a much smaller part. Yeah.

Less monologuing. Less monologuing. It's a much smaller part. Yeah. And that's where I had my Broadway debut, taking over for Fisher, who was wonderful in that show, by the way. Yeah. And then Fisher didn't go in for Matthew

until many months later. They got the kid from On Golden Pond, Doug McKeon. Yeah. He took over for Matthew, but he was kind of oddly cast. He was not a comedy tour de force. So then they brought in Fisher.

He's pretty funny. Yeah. Fisher. And then after Fisher, they brought me back. I had done a movie with Demi Moore called No Small Affair. And my mom went to a show and Gene Sachs was seated right next to her. And he said, oh, Gretchen, how you doing? How's John doing?

And she's like, you realize you devastated him. But she didn't say that. She said, oh, he's doing great. He's got a movie coming out in a few weeks. Yeah. And Gene said, oh, we always knew he'd be a star. Oh. And then literally the next day they called me to replace Fisher.

So you got to do that show. Yeah, I did get to do Brighton Beach Memoirs. And actually, at one point, Matthew then opened the next part of the trilogy, Biloxi Blues, uptown a few blocks. Yes. And they asked me to understudy him in that while I was performing Brighton Beach Memoirs at the same time. So the idea is if he was out, I would just run uptown and my understudy in Brighton Beach Memoirs would go on for me. Wild. Yeah.

So you were a Broadway guy. I was a Broadway guy. But what happened to the film directing? That went away? That went away. Well, you know, yeah, it went away. went away yeah that went away uh well you know yeah it went away i i mostly because i got once i got into performing in movies yeah um i i i realized that the skill of it was different than i thought it was that i didn't i didn't understand the politics involved I didn't understand the budgetary issues of directing. The whole, you just saw yourself

going like, cut! Exactly. Exactly. That's fantasy, John. Yes, exactly. Make the spaceship zoom past the camera.

Boom! We're good. Cut! Print! All done. All done. Yeah, well, that's interesting.

But you eventually ended up directing stuff. I have, but mostly multi-camera, which is a very different skill. Sure. And I went to film school at SC for a while. You did?

After? Yeah, they have like a boot camp where they— But you didn't do like undergrad? Did you do undergrad? No. I just did their USC director's boot camp. But did you do—after high school, that was it? Yes.

And I actually did that as a—you know, after I'd been in the business for a long time. Right. That's what I mean. But there was no college. Yeah. There was no college. Wow. Yeah.

Just like the School of Hard Knocks. Yes. On Broadway. On mean streets. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. I wonder how. Well, I guess if you start at that age.

I forget what a big deal they made out of like, you know, Natalie Portman and Claire Danes going to college. They were child actors. Yeah. And it was sort of like this, like, what? They're just going to stop and go get an education in case acting doesn't work out? Are they the smartest actors that ever lived? Well, that, you know, people always are amazed at that type of thing because they're like, they already had so much success, and yet they are choosing to fulfill themselves

as human beings, thankfully. Or also, but I mean, I think there's some plan B-ing in there. Somewhat, yes. I mean, yeah, I'm sure. I mean, it doesn't work out for everybody. No, no, no. But they were doing pretty well. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, it doesn't work out for everybody. No, no, no. But they were doing pretty well.

Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, in retrospect, I actually got into NYU. But once I got Brighton Beach Memoirs, I just was like, fuck that. Yeah. And but in retrospect, I don't know how my mom would have paid for that. Because she, you know, she's a playwright. She was a single mom playwright in New York. Yeah.

Where was your dad? My dad was an actor. But, you know, he and he would occasionally have Broadway gigs, but not. And he had remarried and had four kids. Wow. He eventually, by the way, got got cast as David Cryer is his name. He got cast in Phantom of the Opera and and ended up touring and doing it on Broadway for 19 years. Oh, so he did all right. Yeah, because all of his kids were successively hitting college.

Yeah. And he was trapped. He had no— Wow. He did. He loved that gig, actually. He really loved it because every town that they went to would welcome the Phantom of the Opera cast like visiting dignitaries. But you kept a relationship with him.

It was all right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah? Absolutely. Still? Still, yeah. That's absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Still? Still. Yeah. That's good.

Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, better now. Yeah. What happens when everyone gets old? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and also it was interesting when, when, uh, when my first marriage ended, he

and I, he just happened to be living in, uh, he, he had his family opera was in Long Beach. Yeah. So he was just staying with me while, you know, the day my ex said, yeah, you know, I want to move out. And I was like, wow, okay. You know, dad, let's go to a bar. Sure. Yeah. And it really did actually, you know, allow me to connect with him in a really different way.

Wow, where's that show? I know, I know. I have pitched it. I have absolutely pitched it. Yeah? So the first movies were, how long before, well, Pretty in Pink happened pretty quickly, huh?

Pretty in Pink happened when I, that was actually my technically third movie. I had done, my first movie was with Robert Altman, a movie called Ocean Stig, which is one of his lost films. But wasn't that based

on a National Lampoon? It absolutely was. Because I remember reading that in Lampoon, and I don't think I ever saw Ocean Stig, but I always thought that Bill and Ted

was sort of a riff on Ocean Stig in a way. Ocean Stig was full of this very National Lampoon contempt for suburbia and yuppies and the 80s thing. Yeah, sure. I mean, just contempt. Yeah.

And that, if I was to point to a problem with Osi and Stiggs, it would be that. It would be that it just had this gut level hatred for a fair number of its characters. But you worked with Altman. But I worked with Altman, which was such a pleasure. Yeah? I mean, where was he in... I mean, that wasn't his last movie or anything. I feel like...

No, in fact, he had a golden age after that. He had shortcuts and the player. Yeah, yeah. You know, some amazing work. He's done a couple weird player. Yeah, yeah. You know, some amazing work. Gosford Park. He's done a couple of weird movies. Oh, many. Health. Yeah.

You know, it is kind of fun being in one of the totally lost Alpen movies. What was it like to work with him? Lovely. He really liked to create a familial vibe on the set. He would screen dailies for the whole cast every night. That's something they seem to do in the 70s a lot. Yeah. I don't think it happens much anymore.

Does it? No, no, not at all. Yeah. Mostly because the production schedule is just much, much accelerated. I guess so. It's so much faster now. And to think they were doing that on film. Yeah.

I mean, it would be easy to screen dailies now. Yeah. Yes, you're absolutely right. You can do it after every take. Where dailies now. Yeah. Yes, you're absolutely right. You can do it after every take. Where? If you want. Yeah, he was trying to create almost a theater group. Okay.

Because you're improv-ing. His stuff is really structured improv. Okay. Where he would mic up all the major characters and have a basic outline of the scene. You got to go from here to here. Go nuts. Yeah. And he, you know, you could tell he was a little bit irascible.

You know, he was a little, you could tell when he was irritated and things weren't working. Right. But he, you know, had a very anarchic sense of humor. Yeah. You know, very mash. Yeah, sure. Adjacent. Yeah.

sense of humor. Yeah. You know, very mash. Yeah, sure. Adjacent. Yeah. And,

and he had this group of, his crew had worked with him for decades. Yeah, yeah. So, so everybody just, you know, swam the deepest ocean

for him. And, and I, so this was my very first film. So I thought, oh, this is, this is how this works. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You show up and you just make up a bunch of stuff and maybe it's funny, maybe it's not. Although interestingly,, oh, this is how this works. You show up and you just make up a bunch of stuff and maybe it's funny, maybe it's not. Although interestingly, I would say there is some detriment to it because when you get that group together and you're all just cutting it up for each other, you do that for dailies and then the stuff doesn't really cut. It's fun for us, but it's kind of exclusionary to the audience. And I would say that that infected us somewhat as well. Oh, interesting.

Because I guess that's the sort of the miracle that sort of has to happen with his movies. Is that it somehow has to transcend. Like, you can't be playing for each other. I always think about McCabe and Mrs. Miller. It's one of my favorite movies. And everybody sort of mic up. There's all kinds of chatter. Yeah.

But it doesn't. Or a wedding. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And Nashville, all that stuff. But it feels like you're peering in on something, but you don't feel alienated necessarily. Yeah. Yeah.

But you thought in that movie it was a little. And he doesn't do a lot of comedies. No, no. But he's, you know, but like when they hit, like the player or, you know, I mean, they really hit. So, you know, that was my introduction to it. Yeah. And but also disappointment because the movie never came out, you know. And so it was, you know, this great fun atmosphere we all had.

It never came out? No, no. I mean, you know what? I think what happened was the studio completely recut the movie and so Altman wanted nothing to do with it.

He didn't Alan Smith-y it, but he, you know, he swore it off. And it got, you know, two theaters in,

you know, in Nyack, you know. Right. So it did not get any kind of- Oh my God, so that's a disappointment. Oh my gosh, yes. So that was another blow.

Yes. Another blow to the young career. Yes, yes. But the nice thing is that, you know, when the blow is happening, you're usually onto the next thing. Sure. So it doesn't hurt quite as much.

Now when, so then the next thing is the one that kind of made you, right? Well, no, the next thing is the one that kind of made you, right? Well, no, the next thing was No Small Affair. Oh. It was a May-December

romantic comedy with me and Demi Moore which was like, we're not that May-December. We're like, she's like 25 and I'm 17 or 16,

something like that. You know, it's not that, well, whatever. Yeah. You know, it's illegal

in many places now but at the time it was the 70s or the 80s, rather, when people just thought that that was titillating, I guess. At any rate, so we did that. And that was supposed to be – that was originally – Martin Ritt was going to direct it with Sally Field and Matthew Broderick. But then Matthew fell out because I think he was doing war games or something like that. And Martin Ritt fell off of it.

So then Jerry Schatzberg came in and then they made it younger. So it was me and Demi Moore. And so that was my second movie. That came out, but wasn't much of a success. And then Pretty in Pink happened. And that was a whole different thing.

Yeah. That was a whole different level of hit. And so you had to deal, you had to sort of, not deal, but you got to see that John Hughes machine kind of do the thing.

Yeah. And I had only, I had read the script to Sixteen Candles and auditioned for it, actually, way back when. But I,

you know, I thought it was hilarious at the time and I loved his writing in national lampoon actually i was a big fan of his from national lampoon and uh so so when pretty in pink uh came to me and i read ducky i was like this is it i you know this is if i don't get this part something has gone terribly wrong um and you were living out here at the time? No, I was living in New York. I was doing Brighton Beach Memoirs, as a matter of fact. Okay, so, yeah.

And I met him when they introduced me to, they wanted me to read. I read for the director first time, and Howie Deutsch was the director. And he just kept having me read more and more scenes. And then he said, well, we want you to read with Molly Ringwald. I was like, woohoo. And I got there. And then there's John Hughes was actually there. Yeah.

And he was super cool and really wanted to talk to me and really wanted to pick my brain about young stuff, which is what he was like with all young actors. He always really wanted to get their take on things. Get it right. And that was part of what made him really good at it. Yeah. Their take on things. Get it right. And that was part of what made him really good at it. Yeah.

But after I got Pretty in Pink, Breakfast Club came out and was like this detonation of teen 80s-ness. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I was like, holy, wow. I guess I'm going to be part of this now. Yeah. You know?

So when do you move out here? When do you like, you know, lock in? Not, not. I still lived in New York most of the time off and on. It wasn't until my son was born in the year 2000 that I actually like moved to California. I mean, I came out a lot. And the crazy thing was that even though I got theater gigs at first in New York. Yeah. Once I started doing movies, I never got theater gigs anymore. They just never came to me. Were you making yourself available for them? I thought so. Yeah. My agents were supposed to be looking for them.

Sure. You know, as you know, as an actor, it's just a waiting game in many respects. You just gotta, you know,

you're not the one making things happen a lot of the time. Yeah. And so, I would always get jobs in Los Angeles, but I wanted jobs in New York where I lived.

Yeah. So I'd go out and I, you know, I got an apartment in Los Angeles and I would, you know, I'd stay sometimes. Sure. I lived in Park La Brea, which is the only place in Los Angeles where it actually is 20 minutes to get everywhere. It's like right in the center. And you can walk to Air One. And you can walk to Air One. Walk to the Grove.

This was pre- Pre-Air One. Pre-Air One. Oh, okay. But you could still walk to the center. Sure. And you can walk to Erewhon. And you can walk to Erewhon. Walk to the Grove. This was pre-Erewhon. Pre-Erewhon. Oh, okay. But you could still walk to the stores. No, Erewhon was on Beverly Downs a little farther down. Farmer's Market. Yes, Farmer's Market existed.

You could do that. You could do that. You could go have coffee over there. Which was nice. Yeah. You know, DuPars was nice. DuPars is still there. Yeah.

Yeah. I think there's still a crew of oldies from the biz that hang out. I think Paul Mazursky used to have a table over there and do a thing. Yes. I remember auditioning for Paul Mazursky. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

That is – I have – I don't have – thankfully, I don't have a lot of those stories where, you know, oh, the great one that got away. Yeah. I don't have a lot of, you where, oh, the great one that got away. I don't have a lot of – I mean, I auditioned for Platoon, which I think is a terrific movie. Platoon. But I wasn't the right guy for Platoon. You were going to do Charlie's part? No. The part – oh, come on. Dylan.

Kevin Dylan. Kevin Dylan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dylan's character, Bunny, Was what I auditioned for. And it was hilarious because I, because whenever, when you have an audition and it's written in that there has to be gunplay. Yeah. That complicates an audition. Yeah. Because what do you do?

Yeah. Do you bring in a fake gun? Yeah. Do you do finger guns? Sure. Which is fucking ridiculous. Do you, what do you do? So this is what you're thinking when you're going in.

Yes. And I was like, well, how do I, you know, because they give you the scene where he shoots at a one-legged Vietnamese guy with a machine gun. And I'm like, okay, do I go rat-a-tat-a-tat? What do I do? You know, and, you know, they certainly don't give you a one-legged Vietnamese guy to go in with, you know. So when you went in, was Stone there? Stone was there, and I did finger guns. I went with finger guns and did not get that part.

Do you think you could have mustered up the menace? Yeah, yeah. You know, the nice thing about being a clown is that people, that when you're not, people do get very surprised. Yeah, they're like, look, the clown's really angry. Yes, exactly. That is an angry clown. Aren't you a sad and angry clown? Yes, of course.

So I think I brought that, but I honestly thought Kevin Dillon was great. I mean, the only times I've auditioned for big things that then ended up being huge, the people ended up being wonderful. Sure. And so I never felt like, oh, well, that was rightfully mine

and I should be angry the rest of my life. What other ones? I had a fun thing happen at, okay, this is, I got sent this indie movie script

that they said, you got to read it on the plane because you can only audition tomorrow. They're holding auditions tomorrow in New York City. Why does it always happen like that?

I know. What's the flipping rush? Can you do it now? Exactly. Can you do it in two hours? Can you read this on the plane because you can only audition tomorrow. They're holding auditions tomorrow in New York City. It doesn't happen like that. I know. What's the flipping rush? Can you do it now? Exactly. Can you do it in two hours? Can you read this on the plane? And they actually gave me a couple of scripts to read on the plane. So I read one of them, finished that, then started the indie movie.

And it was all crazy. It was like it had full of these weird monologues and it went backwards and forwards in time. Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck is this even about? Yeah. I don't, you know, but I'm reading it. I'm like, well, you know, they might be onto something. I don't, I don't know.

Yeah. The next morning, uh, I'm supposed to go in on this audition with these monologues. And I'm like, I had no time. I got in to New York really late. Yeah. When am I even going to learn this? Yeah. And my sister calls me and she says, uh, uh, my, my uh my my mother-in-law is ill i've got

to run out to long island um can you watch my daughter who was two or three at the time yeah um and i was like sure i can and it gave me an excuse to blow off the audition i call up the producer of the the thing and he says please come in please we really want to see you we're really excited about see you and i'm like i can't bring my three-year-old and do this profane, horrifying monologue. It's just one of the most, just like disturbing things. You know, I can't do that

with this child sitting on my lap. You know, it's just, it's not going to work. I'm so sorry. And, you know, and he was really insistent, please, we really want to see you. You know, bring your knees. I was like, no, I'm sorry, I can't. That movie was Reservoir Dogs.

And I really wish I did that movie. Steve Buscemi ended up getting the part. But I do find it funny because had I done that monologue with a three-year-old in my lap, Tarantino would have loved that shit. Sure. 100%. But no one knew Tarantino at that time. No, exactly.

And he obviously was focused on you. Yeah. I mean, that wasn't just the casting director because he's kind of specific. Yeah. He kind of knows the full... Yeah. But again, that script,

I wish I had, you know, that was really my fault for not getting where that script was going. Yeah. You know, that is, you know, it reminds you that as an artist, you really got, that's the source. Yeah. And you, that is, you know, it reminds you that as an artist, you really, that's the source.

Yeah. And you really got to pay attention to that and, you know, and hopefully find what's wonderful, the nugget of wonderful of that and fan it into a flame. I'm mixing metaphors now. Sure. But I mean, that's got to happen pretty regularly. You read a script. I have a hard time reading scripts sometimes.

But you can see a character within it. Yeah. But it doesn't mean you get the whole movie. Yeah. And again, you're, so many things have to go right for a movie to be good. Yeah. So many things. I know.

You know, that it's really, it is, I really admire people who can reliably get themselves into movies that are cohesive and wonderful. Yeah. God bless those people. They're amazing. It is true. No matter how many films are made now, and no matter how easy it is to sort of self-motivate and make movies, it's not that easy. But for one to really come together and be good, it's kind of a miracle.

It is. It absolutely is. Yeah. So many things have to go right. So, I mean, was there a period there, though? I mean, like, you did a lot of movies. Mm-hmm. But was there a period there, though? I mean, like, you did a lot of movies. Mm-hmm.

But was there a period there where you were like, I'm fucked? Is that when you went to film school for a minute? Yes, that was, as a matter of fact. Yeah. Yes. After I did three sitcoms in a row that tanked. And it's different than, it's one thing if you do a pilot and it never gets on the air. Networks don't feel like you've been tested in the marketplace. But I did three shows in a row that got on the air and last and flamed out. You were the lead?

I was the lead. I did a Famous Teddy Z, Partners, and Getting Personal. Okay. All three multi-camera sitcoms. Yeah. All actually good working experiences. Yep. But all of them, you know, like most sitcoms do, got canceled. After like a bit. After half a season. Okay, okay.

All of them lasted half a season. Well, Partners technically lasted a whole season. Yeah. At any rate. So then I was like three years of – in three years, I had two weeks of work. Oh, my God. And that was brutal. So I did go to film school during that time, which was a great experience, mostly because there was a few adults in the class but also a lot of kids. Yeah.

Because there was a few adults in the class, but also a lot of kids. Yeah. And as an adult, you're there to, like, get shit done and you want to be in the class. Yeah. But I was amazed that even kids who got into this course that they really wanted to do, getting them to get off their asses was just this Herculean task, you know, and it was great because like if if if if the editing bay was only open for a certain amount of hours, I was always first because I showed up. Right. Yeah. But but it was that was a that was an absolutely revelatory experience for me because I realized how little how how unimportant acting is in the scheme of making movies and television. Yeah, it must have been that moment. It's just this tiny little slice of it.

It really is. You just realize, oh my God, so much else. And I stopped worrying about auditions nearly as much because I was like, this is just, I'm just a tiny cog in this thing. Right. Even if I'm the lead, I'm a tiny cog in this thing. And then you start to realize why directors are just,

they're nice to you just sort of like, you know, they have to make you feel like it's all you. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Where they know, you're like, oh God, I just gotta get this guy on track. A million things

to worry about. Exactly. Exactly. And you do understand why they have the thousand yard stare on the set. Why, you know,

you like try to be social and they're like checked out because it's like, oh, no, a million things on their mind. Again. So, again, the Gerwig interview was so wonderful because you realize the number of levels that she was thinking about stuff on, just remarkable. It kind of is amazing, yeah. It always amazes me to talk to directors because I want to try it, but I'm terrified of it. But, you know, as you spend more time on set, so you still, you only did, what did you do? One movie you tried a movie? No, I've directed two and a half men. I directed Mom, the sitcom. I directed a show called. Oh, with Allison Channing?

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yes, Mom was an incredible experience because Anna Faris and Allison that had just an amazing cast of women on that show holy crap good time Jamie Presley I mean yes

absolutely great time lovely people but also you know like Disjointed the show I did was with Kathy Bates also amazing performer yeah you know so you so you know I've gotten to work with amazing right but when you step in Like Disjointed, the show I did was with Kathy Bates, also amazing performer. Yeah. You know, so you, so, you know, I've gotten to work with amazing people. Right, but when you step into an already going show, I mean, everything's sort of in place.

Yes. You've got to cleave to the style. Sure. Of the show that exists. Yeah. And, you know, but there's still still what was nice about like Disjointed. Yeah. It was a little scene show on Netflix.

It was about a pot dispensary. Oh, yeah. I watched it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it took some really weird stylistic turns. Yeah. They let you do all kinds of stuff on that show. Yeah.

So that was really fun. Um, but Mom also, you know, directing within an established format is, is also really challenging. Sure. Uh, and, uh, uh, you know, I, I, I really liked the, uh, the challenge of it. I, I really, you know, I, I, I found it, um, very satisfying. I still, you know, I, I still like acting better. So I, I'm fine. I find like every now and then directing, uh, for sitcoms has, they've, they've called me and it's, you me and it's lovely to have the opportunity and I'm grateful for it.

But I tend to prioritize working as an actor instead. Just because it's more engaging? Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'd love to direct single camera. Yeah. But I also, on some level, the technology of it has somewhat passed me by. Because, you know, you see something technology of it has somewhat passed me by. Um, because you know,

the, the, you see something like everything everywhere all at once and you go, okay, obviously they built that movie in tiny little bits. Yeah. How the fuck did they do that? You know,

um, uh, you know, it, it starts to, the, the, the things that I feel I would bring to being a director aren't necessarily valued in cinema right now. Well, you know, it, it starts to, the, the, the things that I feel I would bring to being

a director aren't necessarily valued in cinema right now. Well, I mean, there, there's a mix. But there's a mix. Yes. Yeah. Uh, there's always a mix and, and cinema is in its own crisis. You know, it's like what they don't even, it doesn't even know what it means anymore. But there are some good movies this year.

There are. Absolutely. You know, there's some good, you know, regular style movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, all right,

so by the time you get the gig on Two and a Half Men, you're showing up in sitcoms, you're doing things here and there. Yeah. And you had no idea that that thing would take off.

I didn't. You never know. But you knew Charlie. I knew Charlie, yeah. And I had actually done a pilot with Chuck Lorre at one point.

So, I knew him and the director Jim Burrows. Yeah, he's great, right? Yeah, he's a legend for a reason. But in terms of coming out of the 80s and being part of that crew of actors, eventually they all kind of, some disappeared, some went their different ways. But was there a sense of community that was diminishing as time went on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. But it's interesting because, like, I was at this award show recently, and I finally met Keeper Sutherland. We should have met, you know, but we never met until now, you know. Right, yeah. And I felt bad because I'm like this snark machine whenever I'm on the red carpet. Yeah. And he's, like like a nice guy. And I was just like making my jokes.

And he was like, well, really nice to meet you. But he was super cool. That's wild, right? But, yeah, it's crazy that we've both been working in this business. I actually did a commercial when I was four. So technically I've been doing this for 54 years. Wild. And yet,

yet we've, our paths never crossed. I guess that's just, I always have this idea and it's, it's, it's going away that all of you know each other and that everybody, we, you know,

I didn't socialize with the Brat Pack folks. I didn't, you know, I, most people don't. It's not like anytime you see people in movies, it took me doing this show for a decade to realize like, no one hangs out.

Yeah, there were friends. And then you go away. And then you go away. Maybe forever. Yeah. And occasionally you'll have somebody you stay in touch with. Yeah. You know, but, you know, it's not, it's a very migratory, I guess it's migratory.

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, everybody's just sort of out doing their own thing. And if people are working on something, it could be a year, two years, three years. Yeah. But you do this two and a half men. I imagine you did a pilot. It was like anything else, right?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was – I did get a certain sense of CBS wanted Charlie Sheen on the air so badly. And you could sense that. Based on what? Based on he had done Spin City for a couple of seasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And everybody was like,

wow, he's really good. Yeah. Because he took over from Michael J. Fox and everybody said, that is a bad idea. And then he turned out to be good on the show. With a totally different character.

Yeah, with a totally different character. So, you know, so him doing, also Les Moonves at the time was just, you know, chomping at the bit or champing at the bit to to have movie people and TV shows. Sure. That was what he wanted. Well, he said he was ahead of the curve on that. Yes, he was. He was. Because that happened. That's all that happens now.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's again, it's different. It's so different. Yeah, it's we, it's different. It's so different. Yeah. It's, uh, we're, we're,

but when we're old now, I imagine what the arc of two and a half men, what was it always a sort of, uh, did you feel like you were on and off screen just in a codependent situation? That was, um, well,

there was a, there was a, a very funny moment i i was getting divorced at the beginning of two and a half men just like my character yeah i was in the midst of a divorce when that when that uh when that first started yeah uh and at one point uh charlie who was still married to denise at the time said hey man if you need a place to stay uh you can you can come stay with us yeah and i was like how much like the show do you want your life to be, Charlie? And we had dinner together a few times.

We didn't hang out every night. I couldn't see it. It was different interests. Yeah, we were very different kinds of guys. And then his marriage fell apart. So we were both single for a little while. And we, you know, commiserated about that a bit. Then this happened with a lot of my friends growing up.

Whenever they got into drugs because I was not into drugs, they split off, you know, and kept that part of their lives away from me because they always just thought of me as a Boy Scout, I guess. And Charlie was the same way. Yeah. He never talked to me about that stuff. But it was pretty extreme. I mean, I have a hard time believing it didn't bleed over. Yeah. Well, interestingly, he was still good at the job. Yeah.

And he was still a nice guy to be around. He didn't, like, take it out on everybody. He didn't show up and scream and yell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the last season, he started, you could see that something was up. It either was like,

I was a little worried about his health. It was like his timing's a little off. Right. But he had started using again at that point and stuff was starting to fall apart. But the rollercoaster of his life didn't affect the show or your relationship with him.

No, no. Not until the whole, I mean, there were periods. Like when he got arrested in Colorado. Yeah. That, we had to shut down the show, you know. And he went into rehab a little bit, a couple of times. Yeah. So, and that, you know, literally stops your, what your, how you make your living, uh, you know, which is, um, uh, but at the time he was always, you know, he was incredibly apologetic about it, you know, and you knew you were working with a guy who was an addict.

I mean, the very first day that we started working together, he showed me his sobriety coin. Oh yeah. He's like, I've been two years sober, you know? And I was like, fantastic. That's great. Congratulations, man. Here we great. Congratulations, man. Yes, what could possibly go wrong? But he did last

four, we did like four seasons before he started sliding off into the abyss. And then like, well, it's weird. I had one experience with him when he was in the middle of that manic breakdown with the tiger blood and everything. Yeah, yeah.

Winning and that whole business. Like, I don't know how far. That was after he burned all the bridges, right? Yes. Well, that was the burning was the winning, the midnight rants that he would just say horrible things about everybody. Somebody had decided at Live Nation to tour him. Oh, yes. Yes. Actually, I talk about everybody. Well, somebody had decided at Live Nation to tour him. Oh, yes. Yes. Actually, I talk about

this. I also talked with Greg Garcia who they also talked to him as well. People, they wanted show doctors. Right. So they contacted you about that? Yeah, I met with Charlie at the Four Seasons to kind of, you know, kick around some ideas of how he would do a stage show. So

the guy who, the comedy guy at Live Nation, Wills, Jeff Wills, is like, you want to meet with Charlie Sheen? We're trying to put together some kind of show for him to do in the middle of this insanity. I'm like, well, that's not taking advantage of a guy or anything if he wants to do it. So he's in a spiral of drugs and debauchery. I can understand why you you want to exploit that. Why not allow him to monetize that in some fashion? But I definitely felt that because I'm sober.

I was definitely sober then. And I met with him. It was fine. But then, of course, I get the call like, he loves you, man. You got to go up to the house. Oh, so you went up to the house? Yes. Oh, my gosh, dude.

So I go up to the house and it's crazy. Yeah. It was madness. And there's people working. They're building bits around this meltdown that he's having. And I had a cold that day. And I remember because I was upset because he had all these amazing cigars and I just couldn't even enjoy them. But he was like going on and I'm seeing that everybody's sort of tentative.

And I'm like, so you all know that this is volatile and it's weird. I could see it. But they were on board because they had a gig and they were trying to put together this thing. And I'm like, you know, I, I, I couldn't do it. I said, you know, after it, I said, I can't do it, but I know a guy who could, you know, go out there and he could open for him. And, you know, and I referred a friend of mine, Kirk Fox, who, uh, who's a comic. And I just remember like, you know, I got out, I said, I can't do it for a lot of mine, Kirk Fox, who's a comic. And I just remember, like, you know, I got out. I said I can't do it for a lot of reasons. But, you know, most of it being like this is a train wreck and it's not correct. Yeah.

But, like, Kirk went out there for a couple of those shows. And I remember running into him on a plane coming back from one. And I'm coming back from New York and he's coming back from a string of these. He's like, would you get me into it? Well, cause at the time I heard he wanted a tour. Uh, and my mind said, I don't think he knows how to put together a stage show. I'm pretty sure he doesn't. Um, and I, but I thought, you know what? He's got managers, he's got agents. They will help him put together a stage. They brought in a lot of people. And they did. And I'm now only now, by the way, hearing about all the people that you are the second person. I've only met one other person who was brought in. Well, eventually what had happened when they realized that he couldn't do it on, you know,

like it wasn't performative. Yeah. You know, what he was going through was real time mania and whatever that and that I think it kind of got a little sad. And I think who I think Jeff Ross stepped in. Yes. And it became more of a sort of moderated conversation. Yes. With some other elements. Because he was because in his mania, he was doing these sketches that only he would know what the hell was going on. He made this assumption that America was on the pulse of what he was going through.

Yeah. And it was peculiar. Yeah. And, yeah, but I guess it leveled off a bit and they got a few gigs out of it. And I guess eventually, years later now, I guess he's kind of leveled off again. Yes. Yes. He's in a much better place now.

But I had the good fortune of doing, I got asked when Two and a Half Men shut down and he got fired, out of nowhere, I got asked to do what I thought was an encore's production of the musical Company with Stephen Colbert and Martha Plimpton and Patti LuPone and Neil Patrick Harris. Yeah. And it was like a thing that was going to be at Lincoln Center. And encores, I don't, you know, the way they do encores productions is everybody's still on script. Right.

The idea is you sing the songs, you do some minimal blocking. Yeah. But it's really just a fun evening to celebrate the show. Sure, right. But a couple of weeks after they asked me to do it, I said, yeah, sure, I'll do it. That sounds like fun. Yeah. I find out it's not an Encores! production.

It's a fully staged production of Company that they're doing in two weeks at Lincoln Center. And half the cast won't even be there when you're rehearsing because, like, Neil Patrick Harris was still doing How I Met Your Mother. And Christina Hendricks was still doing Mad Men. She was in the show. So this is madness. We're putting on a real Broadway musical in two weeks. Yeah. Welcome.

But not only that, but across town at Radio City Music Hall, Charlie Sheen and his Violent Torpedo of Truth tour was going to play. So we're both trotting the boards on the same night in vastly different enterprises. But both kind of chaotic. But both kind of chaotic. Yeah. The company ended up, by the way, they shot it to play in movie theaters, actually.

What? Yeah, it ended up being this fantastic production of Company. Patti LuPone's amazing in it. It's the reason they cast her in that redone version, that sort of reimagined version of Company a couple years later. So it worked out? It worked out. It ended up being a great production. But we're all working on being super precise Sondheim, trying to deliver the magic of Sondheim to Broadway audiences.

And across town is this flaming train wreck circus. Wow. So that was crazy. So I guess you didn't bounce over there. No, no. It was discussed. It was discussed, but it did not occur. Really? People were like, but it did not occur. Really?

People were like, come on, go over and hang out? Yeah, no, people were coming up to me saying, hey, we just saw Charlie. And they were wasted, invariably. They were wasted, often missing teeth. I think that's what it became, that people signed on for the train wreck. Yes. And it was weird for me because I really had emotionally bought into his recovery and I was really hoping for all this stuff. But he brings a lot. He brings the drama into his life.

That's what he does. Yeah. And I hope he's past that. I hope he's moved on. Yeah. He's a great guy to work with when he's not doing that. I hope he's moved on. He's a great guy to work with when he's not doing that. Now, do you feel like, you know, in looking at your career, that, like, because, like, they're, obviously in theater, you know, these, the understudy thing happens, and then you're kind of, you know, you take, people take roles

in shows, but you didn't originate any of the roles that you started out in in theater. And it's just sort of interesting that, you know, there you were with Charlie, but this is, like, you guys both carried that show. It was a comedy team. You didn't ever feel like this is his show. You know, I kind of, that was the way it was positioned to me. Yeah.

It ended up being more of a comedy team thing. Yeah. Mostly because, like, they wanted us to promote the show together a lot. Like, we hosted the People's Choice Awards together and stuff like that. So we had to develop that dynamic. Yeah. And it did come very easy to us. We had a great time doing it.

It's sort of classic. Uptight guy with Charlie Sheen. Yeah. It works. Straight man. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Straight man is very funny.

Yes. People don't give enough credit to the straight man. I agree. But you do feel tethered. I mean, it's like the Hall and Oates issues of late remind you that, you know, when you have, when you're wildly successful as a team. Yeah. That has, can have drawbacks. I mean, now they're at each other's throats and in court battles and it just makes you sad.

It's Hall and Oates for crying out loud. I know. What the fuck could be one? Seriously, guys. Just, you know, don't be mad. But it's crazy.

I remember when I had David Crosby, I had him on my show before he died, obviously. And I didn't know David Crosby. You know, he's Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.

You know, Crosby, Stills, Nash. You know, it's David Crosby. And I reached you know, I reached out to him on Twitter, I think. You know. And, you know, he's like,

what, he's in his 70s. And I get this call a couple weeks on my phone and I didn't know the number. You know, and it's Crosby.

And Michael Haley's like, yeah, man, it's Cros. Look, man, I just, you know, I'm looking forward to the interview, but like, don't bring up

any of this stuff with me and Graham that's going on right now. And I'm like, what? I have no idea. What's the drama? Everybody knows about it. The world knows about it. It was over a woman.

And these guys are almost 80. And I'm like, you know what, David? I'll keep that. I'll keep that. Won't even bring it up. And I'm like, you know what, David? I'll keep that. I'll keep that.

Won't even bring it up. One thing that was interesting about Sheen and that whole situation was that he grasped even even when he was going crazy. Yeah. He grasped his public narrative. What people saw was his story. And that was why he was railing at the studio heads and railing at Chuck Laurie, the guy who ran my show, because,

you know, it got people sort of on his side in this weird way. And it, and it, it, he understood his public narrative. And now I'm an actor. I didn't,

I didn't have a public narrative at all. I was just like, I mean, I'm either in a movie that you've seen or not, you know, that's, you know, people don't know about my relationships.

They don't care. And that's the way I like it. You know? Sure. But it was the first time in my life when I started having a public narrative. I was the guy that had to hold the fort up when the, you know, main guy goes crazy, you know. And Kutcher comes in. And then Kutcher blows into town.

But you're the rock. But I was the rock. And I was like, it was very weird to have a public narrative all of a sudden. But you didn't get flack. No, no, I didn't. I got, no, people were incredibly kind to me. I did get flack from fans of Charlie's because they said, why weren't you, why didn't you stand up for him? Why didn't you keep him on the show?

Why didn't you, you know, refuse to do the show once he got fired? So there was a big faction of charlie sheen fans who hated me yeah but like you know but they were at the shows and i don't yeah i don't think you would be too upset if you lost them no um no you know obviously i want people to enjoy but also you Half Men. But also, they don't know what went down. Yeah. And the crazy thing, by the way, is Sheen told me later

why he went nuts. He started doing testosterone. He was doing testosterone cream during that time. So there was roid rage. With the other stuff. Yeah, with all the other stuff.

So those midnight, that was roid rage. That's what that was. Really? Yeah. Huh. Yeah, I mean, he's kind, you know, he's definitely, it's amazing he's what that was. Really? Yeah. Huh. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's, he's kind of,

you know, he's definitely, it's amazing he's alive. Yes. You know, with, with the virus and with the drugs and with everything else. And, you know, cause you always kind of like that guy. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I hope, I hope I have nothing but good wishes for him and, and, and gratitude for the, for the really great times we had. And what about the kid? Is he all right? Angus is well. Well, the crazy thing is if you watch the new show Bookie, which is on Max, which Chuck Lorre writes and directs and produces, the first episode has like 18 Easter eggs about two and a half men.

Oh, wow. And in fact, Charlie is in it. Yeah. You know, he and Chuck have reconciled. Yeah. And Angus is in it. And they are in a poker group in the show. Oh.

But that poker group was the exact same poker group that was in the pilot of Two and a Half Men. Come on. Exactly. Don Foster, Eddie Gordetsky, that whole crew. Yeah. I know Gordetsky. Everybody knows Eddie Gordetsky, that whole crew. Yeah. I know Gordetsky. Everybody knows Eddie Gordetsky. What does he do, though?

He is a comedy writer. He is actually a terrific comedy writer. Of course. But he's also just a more fun guy to have around because he knows everybody. Eddie Gordetsky's name is on the credits of almost every comedy from 1995 onward. And that's as it should be. Yeah, no, no. He's a great guy.

But, you know, I can't get him on. He won't do the show, but I've met him many times. Oh, come on. He'd be great. Yeah, but he doesn't want to. He likes his life.

He likes being private. He likes listening to records. He came over with Elvis Costello, of all people. He's like a music guy. Yes. Like, comedy is like how he made his living,

but he's all about music. Absolutely. The reason we had fun music guests on the show with some regularity was him. Yeah, he's the best. But I imagine he must be hilarious. Oh, yeah. But when you're just like a consulting producer or producer, you don't know which ones he's written. But I don't keep up with it.

But he's done it on all of them. He must know the magic of sitcom. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, that's interesting to know about Bookie. It makes me curious now. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, that's interesting to know about, Bookie. It makes me curious now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So ultimately, this new show, Extended Family, is your first real project.

You mean— You're the lead. Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah, technically. But I think what the show sells is me and Abigail Spencer and Donald Faison. I like to think of us as a new mod squad of comedy. Yeah.

But interesting thing about this show is that this is the first one that I was in the room for. I'm a producer on it. So I was in the room from the get go. I mean, I was in the room for the last few years of Two and a Half Men with some regularity. But this is the first time I was in the room all the last few years of two and a half men yeah uh with some regularity but um but uh but this is the first time i was in the room all the time yeah uh and that's been a fascinating uh thing to do at at you know when i've been doing this a long time yeah and did you know 260 something episodes of two and a half men to to figure out the dynamics of a whole new thing yeah at once

has been really interesting and and really challenging and fun. Educational. And educational. And I love that at this age, after 54 years in the business, I am learning new shit all the time. Do you have a production company? Yes. All right. Yeah.

And we make all kinds of stuff. Right. We do podcasts, by the way. And that's been going on for a long time? The production company? Yeah. I started at Warner Brothers in the last Right. We do podcasts, by the way. And that's been going on for a long time? The production company? Yeah. I started at Warner Brothers in the last couple of years at Two and a Half Men. And, you know, we've been doing, you know, cranking out, selling pilots and stuff.

But, you know, this is the first thing the production company has an ongoing credit on. Well, that's exciting. Yeah. Congratulations on all the new stuff. Thank you. Thank you very much. And it was good talking to you. Yes.

The pleasure was mine. The pleasure was absolutely mine. That was nice, wasn't it? John Cryer. His show, Extended Family, airs Tuesday nights on NBC. Hang out for a second, will you? Can you? Would you?

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With the RocketMoney app, you can see all your paid subscriptions in one place, so it's easy to cancel the ones you don't use or don't want. RocketMoney has over 5 million users and has helped save its members an average of $720 a year, with over $500 million in canceled subscriptions. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash WTF. That's rocketmoney.com slash WTF. Save your money and save some time while you're doing it at rocketmoney.com slash WTF. This Thursday, we have Bobby Lee. That's right.

On Thursday's show, Bobby Lee is back. If you have a WTF Plus subscription, you can go all the way back to episode 137 and listen to the first time Bobby was on. So Bobby Lee just got here

and he walked in and he said, I said, have you listened to the show? And you said, I said, you listened to the show and you said I said it's got good numbers you said you heard it's got good numbers yeah so you never listened

to the show well it's like I mean I've done other podcasts like sometimes there's Corolla I sound like I listen to it I understand

I'm not it's like I'm a fan of you I like you I'm not judging you I mean who's got time well I just sometimes because I don't know there's a relationship that I have with you that I have with no other.

Which is, it's like, I don't know what it is. It's like, I adore you, but then, you know, I feel like sometimes you don't like me. And what did that look like same is basically the same thing you're doing now what I mean I mean what joke

see this is exactly this is exactly why I had a fear if I have fears that's episode 137 with Bobby Lee you can get all your WTF episodes

ad free when you sign up for WTF plus just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. All right, one more slide guitar thing.

I don't think I get it quite right. I have to practice. Hey, good news though. I have a broken foot. So I'll be practicing. Right? I'm spinning it right. I'm spinning it right. I'm spinning it optimistic. Thank you. Boomer lives.

Monkey and LaFonda. Cat angels everywhere. Cat angels everywhere.