WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1510 - John Oliver

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

John Oliver is one of those people who just gets Marc. It’s not surprising, considering John has become one of the sharpest observers of the American way of life. Back in the garage after almost twelve years, John talks with Marc about having what he calls a functional version of a nervous breakdown during the pandemic, finding hope in a painting of rat erotica, and the process of putting together Last Week Tonight as it returns for its eleventh season. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. How's it going? Pretty exciting show today. Pretty fucking exciting. Sorry, kids, but it's fucking exciting. You know, sometimes, I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes, and a lot lately, these shows have just been great. They've been funny. They've been engaged. They've been exciting for me.

I imagine they're fun to listen to. But today, my friends, is an all-timer. Yep. This is one of those shows that just is, it's all there, man. It's all there. And my guest today is John Oliver. Okay. Now, John, I've known John a while. He had me on his show,

the John Oliver Presents or whatever it was on Comedy Central. I can't remember exactly when we met, but he was on episode 298. That's a long time ago. And I don't know, we just get along. We get a kick out of each other. And this is when some kind of magic happens on this show. But John and I, not only are we friends and we don't see each other that much, but he also wrote the foreword to our book, Waiting for the Punch. And now, you know, he's got the great show,

Last Week Tonight, starring John Oliver. There's a new season starting up this month. But there's something about when we get together. And I don't know how often you listen to this show. But sometimes, you know, there's certain comics usually or people that understand me. Most of the time they know me a bit. But sometimes it happens with just regular guests who just get the vibe. They get me and they can kind of see through me in terms of how sometimes I can be a little pokey and a little mild ball busting going on,

some slight bullying occasionally. But ultimately, it's not deep. It's just sometimes how I communicate, slightly defensive, not necessarily aggravated, but funny sometimes, most of the time. And John is just one of these guys who makes me laugh to no end, yet he also gets me precisely. And I think I get him pretty well. We do come from different cultures, really, but there's just something about the pace. When you hang out with John, he operates at a very fast pace and it's kind of like a ride. And my brain operates at a very fast pace, but I'll adapt to whoever's in the room here. And we just go. And we just went. And this is just one of those episodes that I think you're going to enjoy

because we did. God damn, we had a good time. There's been some real bangers, as some people say lately. Giamatti, boom. Bobby Lee, wow. And this one, it is really what we used to do all the time here on WTF. This was

really the heart of how this show evolved and found its groove was me talking to my peers. And many of them I haven't talked to in years because we had this one guest one time, occasionally a short one after that policy. But now it's been over a decade for some of these people and a lot has happened in their lives, but the fundamental dynamic remains. I think I've gotten a little more grounded at ease, less aggravated, and I think I'm a little more fun. So these few episodes that are happening recently with people that have been on the past and people who I like Bobby, I see Bobby Lee all the time. And Paul, I don't know how that happened. It just was one of those things. And there's more coming

up. It's happening. I think it's because I needed more than ever to talk to people and to engage like this. Maybe you do too. I'm in Portland, Maine at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th. Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 2nd.

We also added a date. I don't even think it's up on the site yet. I got to get it up there. I'm going to be at the Treefort Festival's Comedy Vertical Saturday, March 23rd, the day after Atlanta in Boise, Idaho. I'll have that up on the site promptly. Might even be there by now,

but I just want to make sure you knew right now because it just happened. The Tree Fort Music Festival's Comedy Vertical, Comedy Fort, I guess it's called. You can go to treefortmusicfest.com and I'm going to be there. I'm going to be, I don't know that I've ever performed. I don't think I've performed in Idaho since I did Moscow, Idaho. Maybe I did it with Merman and

Kindler years ago, but I'm kind of excited about it. It looks like a pretty fun festival. I'll be in Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater on Wednesday, April 3rd. Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th. Chicago at the Vic Theater on Friday, April 5th. And Minneapolis at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th. All those dates, Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago, Minneapolis. Allie Makovsky will be joining me as my feature.

Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets yes yes so when was the last time i talked to you guys monday san francisco that's right the day after the castro before i had my mccabe and mrs miller screening at the roxy theater which was great, interesting, and kind of an amazing new experience to watch it on a 35 millimeter print provided by my pal Peter Kahnheim. And that went very well. It's just always exciting to watch that movie and realize it's interesting when you see a movie like dozens of times and you think you know it, you return to it and it's always new if it's a great movie. And that thing, I don't know,

it's just got a lot of depth for me. I don't know how it affects others, but that went well. But that day, Sunday, me and my buddy, Jack Boulware, the writer, we have been friends for years. He's been at both of my weddings. We've had ups and downs. We don't talk to each other much, not as much as we used to, and sometimes not for long periods of time. But he's up in San Francisco or in the Bay Area. He was for years. He's kind of moved a little out of there, but he wanted to do a piece on us going back to the early 90s when I lived in San Francisco for a couple of years and just kind of move through the city, visiting the places that we used to hang out. And it was just a great day.

This is an amazing thing about certain friendships, or maybe it's about all friendships. It is for me that when you have good friends, you probably only have a couple. And when you don't live in the same city, generally what I do, not unlike what I do here, is you put aside a half a day or a few hours to just kind of wait it out and talk. Just move through the world and talk. Reconnect and get into a groove like anything else, like a comedy set, anything that you're sort of into. And it happened at the Castro, at the theater, where it started off like I felt it was me getting my footing. And then once I get into the groove, it becomes effortless.

And good friendships are sort of like that. So me and Jack set out in the middle of this fucking, the winds in San Francisco were crazy. And we just started doing this stuff, going through the areas we used to do and kind of having these moments of pulling together or little triggers of our past, our separate past, our combined past. But I met him back in, geez, it must have been 92. And there was a comedy scene in San Francisco. I think we met at the Improv downtown that's long gone. And I believe the first time we hung out, we went to the Mad Dog

in the Fog on Lower Haight. And I'd been trying to stay sober and it was kind of a monumental day. I just, he was like, you want a beer? And he said to me, he said, I just was like, ah, I don't know. And I just remember the pint. I think it was that Red Hook, that Red Hook ales, that still exists. It was before the IPAs, before the craft beers. It was like maybe the first one, Red Hook Ale or Big Bass, a Big Bass and a pint glass. And I just drank it and I told him I hadn't been drinking. And, you know, it's always an awkward position to put people in. But, you know, that just that started the friendship. And we went to all the old places that used to be sort of the regular haunts.

Some of the the old comedy clubs we drove by. The Lower Haight, we spent a good amount of time down there. Kind of reminiscing about Naked Eye, the video store. And I used to make the rounds. I don't know what you people do in your life. Jack had a job. He was working at the Nose Magazine. He was also a writer for SF Weekly. And later he ran the Litquake with some other people.

But as a comic, if I lived in a city, I would just find some places where I could park myself a comic, if I lived in a city, I would just find some places where I could park myself for at least an hour or two a day. I'd rather there be a person there, but sometimes just be a coffee shop. And I'd talk to whoever was around, but there was naked eye, this video store, this guy named Steve used to run. There was a couple of guys that worked there. And I just go in there for like an hour or two and just hang out, talk about movies. If you got a record store like an hour or two and just hang out. Talk about movies. If you got a record store, go to the record store, hang out, talk about records, bookstore,

you know, a bookstore, hang out, talk about books, see who comes in, what's happening. Got a coffee shop, hang out. That's the life. That's been the life in every city I've lived in. So Jack and I were kind of moving through that. We were trying to identify where stuff was. And then like, I had to go to the bathroom. He parked his car and I ran into this, I think it's called the International Cafe. And there was this 10 piece jazz band in this little coffee shop. It was pretty big, but, but you know, a 10 piece jazz band anywhere is still a 10 piece jazz band.

It was at least 10 pieces. And they were just going at it. And it was like, oh my God, I ran out there and I got Jack out of the car. I'm like, dude, this is happening. This is happening in real time. This is life. This is art. This is art in motion. This is immediate, man. We went in, got jacked up on a mocha. He did. I just had a regular cup of coffee, but that, that was the way San Francisco was, man. We always talk about this one night. And, you know, there's some nights where you just ride a booze buzz just right. And there was this night where me and Jack, it was years ago, we started in the Mission at a Mexican restaurant, Margaritas.

Then we walk around the corner and we just hear this music coming out of a place down the mission, just power rock. And we went in there, it was packed and just hang out there for like a half an hour, kind of bathe in the rock music. And then we kind of kept moving. Jack had some sort of invite to a strip club that was opening. We're not really strip club guys, but it sounded like a scene. And it was this completely not built yet strip club with just dozens and dozens of people and just naked women walking around. And then we went, we ended up at Tosca having some cocktails and it was just this beautiful arc of an evening. Sometimes those nights were, you know, the balance of booze or blow or whatever together is just right. But that was just a booze thing.

But so this day that we hung out in San Francisco started to feel like that, man. We, you know, we get into the International Cafe. There's jazz going. And then we just take a walk. I go into the Life Cafe to pick up my patchouli fix. We kind of look at like where the Spaghetti Western used to be, where they had the biscuits and gravy. Kate's had the pancakes, the horseshoe cafe, where you could get pints of coffee and all these places that had brown sugar back in the day for the coffee. And they all had those oat pucks.

If you're from San Francisco, you visited there at this area, all the coffee shops had these tightly wrapped oat pucks, these oat cakes that you could eat. So we just kind of wandered around the lower hate. We took a ride up to the upper hate. We took a ride down to the mission, tracked down my old house, my old apartment on South Van Ness, but man, what a great day. And we just spent like from one o'clock to eight o'clock until we got to the movie, just talking, reminiscing, doing the thing, reflecting. And it was in this horrendous monsoon-like weather. But this is just another point to this conversation is that what is happening environmentally, climate-wise, is something we'd all knew was coming. It wasn't a surprise.

And now that it's here, we knew that we maybe could have done something about it, but not necessarily as individuals. We did the best we could. Maybe some of us, I don't know, but now it's here and there's really nothing to do but adapt and hope it doesn't get worse. But this weather is kind of crazy. I've never seen it before. The wind in San Francisco during this rain on that Sunday was insane. And we're walking through the lower Haight and it was just windy. The rain had slowed down and I hear this huge kind of crack. And right as I turn, I see a tree fall onto a car in real time. And it was like, holy fuck, that tree just fell on that car. And I looked at it and I had that moment where you're like, this is happening now. Nobody

was hurt, but then you kind of walk on and there's nothing else you can do. It's a weird thing about this environmental disaster is people are just sort of like, man, I guess this is just the weather now. Trees are going to fall on cars. That's where we're at. That's it. This is a good trip. Change is inevitable, people. There are very few things that haven't changed over the past decade. Sometimes change is good. Lots of times it's bad. But one thing that's remained constant since 2013 is the partnership between this show and Stamps.com. Not only were they one of WTF's first full-time advertisers, but we've been using Stamps.com ever since. And so have our listeners.

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microphone at the top of the homepage and enter code WTF. Yes. So look, I prepped you at the beginning for this John Oliver conversation. What a great time we had. The new season of last week tonight premieres Sunday, February 18th on HBO. And it was great seeing John. And now you can listen to us hanging out. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those.

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See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis, and ACAS Creative. I was like, you know, what am I going to do there? Am I going to, like, call people I went to high school with? Like, hey, dude, remember? There's a couple of them around. Guess who's back in town.

Yeah, but then I realized, like, I don't have to do that. I love the place and it'll be fine. I'll just hang out. I'll be old. And the fucking, everything's going, I'm just, I've been doing... You will be old. That was unavoidable. Pull that up. Yeah. Get it right to your mouth. This is your old radio technique. I love little

flashes of radio, Mark. Pull that up. Get on the mic. What are you doing? Are you fucking new to this? I love Radio Mark. That's a skill that does not exit your body, does it? I am offended by the distance of your mouth from that mic. So let's correct that straight away.

Yeah, like, what are you doing? You know how to do this. You're professional. I can't stand when I got to sit here and ride the levels. I love radio skills. Some idiot doesn't know how to fucking talk on a microphone. And believe me, I can't tell you how many times I've had to do that. Because then it gets to the point where it's like, am I going to say it again?

It's like, just get on the mic. That's right. These mics are sensitive. They're specific. And they're not here. Yep. This is where they are right so you're going to say it once firmly and then you're not going to say at the same time you're just going to see watch the fucking idiot drift start talking talking over here and just hope that brendan can fix it later yeah and apologize for it i don't

know i didn't realize it was such a skill. But here's the thing, dude. I was just texting with my friend James Gray, the popular film director. And we're both feeling, I wouldn't say cynical, I would say straight up relatively hopeless. And also I enjoy your show because it's weird. I was able to make the transition. Rachel Maddow contextualized things for me, and then I guess she decided she'd had enough of that. Enough of providing context?

Yes. Yeah, just because they go, let's make this about me. Yeah, something. I don't know what happened. She's doing radio shows about Spiro Agnew. It's like the world's on fire, and you're trying to find historic precedent? Hey, Nero, put the violin down.

Yeah, yeah. You're looking for a historical precedent to douchebags? How far do you want to go back for more douchebags? We're in the age of the douchebags. Let's revisit LBJ to see if there are any lessons for today. Right. No one gives a fuck. Yes.

Let's stick with today. The house is on fire. Exactly. I don't need to learn about how houses previously burned. This one's a blaze. On some level, it's some sort of strange. It's a rationalization of history that, you know, you seek precedent. You know, that like, oh, it's been bad before.

Yeah, but it's different kind of bad now. Because, you know, the culture has become shallow that these machines that we hold in our hands all day are just, you know, trauma mills. And they shatter the brain's ability to contextualize properly. And they guarantee if your brain is not engaged properly that you will just become an appendage of a cultural noise. I mean, it's true that things have been bad before, though, right? That context is real. And it's ever so slightly stabilizing. But I think where I would agree there is what you're dealing with now, with the way that people consume media and basically events in the world around them,

is rocket fuel. And I don't know that we've had to go through things with rocket fuel like this before. Well, we haven't. That's just a fact. And so to that extent, certain challenges are new and exponentially larger than before. And I don't know what they're going to mean, but it doesn't feel good.

The big mistake really was giving everyone a voice. Yeah. I mean, listen, listen, Stalin. The thing is, you make it, it's not 100% untrue, is it? Because it sounds great.

Yeah. Give everyone a voice and then you realize, wait, what did that guy say? Oh, no, he needs to shut the fuck up, though. Yeah, yeah, that guy. Yeah, that guy.

Yeah, don't give him a voice and then already you've Oh, no, everyone's got one. You've broken the egalitarian society instantly. Everyone's got one. And, you know, some people don't give him a voice, and then already you've broken the egalitarian society instantly. Everyone's got one. And some people don't even have to use their name. Most people. Everyone's got one.

They can all chime in. But I don't know, man. I think about this stuff a lot. Yes, it's very, very, very dark, and I don't know how to sugarcoat it. Well, you do the contextualizing. Because I find it personally helpful yeah but i will in certain ways it's more depressing i think the thing that really rocked me in that

early days of the actually not even in the early days of the pandemic as we began to exit it yeah you always hope right until the pandemic in my head, well, if there is a seismic event that actually exposes the gigantic flaws in the way that society is structured, in a way that nobody can deny because we're in front of it, and that we're so adept at ignoring. Hypothetically, if such a thing could happen, maybe that would be our hope. We'll grow from it. But once that's happened, in my mind, things, I felt dark. I think, well,

hold on, we saw it. You saw the extent to which society is letting down the most vulnerable people in it. You watched it happen. Yeah. You agreed it was a problem and you didn't go back to fix it.

That is devastating. Not go back to fix it. I feel like at least 30% of the people in this country are waiting until they can legally kill them. I mean, what is that? Oh, it's just funny. I mean, yes. On one hand, that's almost the darkest thing you could possibly say.

On the other hand, my body reacted to that with a gleeful laugh. I don't know what to tell you about that. Well, that's because there is historical precedent. Oh, hunting humans for Sport, for sure. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I think that, to me, is the thing that hammered me. During the pandemic?

Towards the end of that first phase of the pandemic, I was realizing, oh, we're not going to learn from this. So what does that mean? No, they used it as a wedge issue. So thoroughly, you can't, you know, the propaganda machine on so many levels it's so profound you know like you know uh regular people and and liberals are just sort of like you know should we should we put up something on the bulletin board

where should we put the stickers that is absolutely true yeah there's that look at these bumper stickers there's that look at these bumper stickers there's that sense well there's a precedent in the way of handling this kind of disinformation oh you're dealing with

this is a different beast totally this beast it's all coming at you will eat your bulletin messages yeah and it'll eat your brain and it will shit them back into your face

oh absolutely you're just three clicks away from being algorithmed into psychosis yes and I don't know that it's that people have got better at disinformation. I think it's just we are so much weaker

than I think even my darkest expectations wanted us to be. Weaker how? Mentally? Socially? Just susceptible. Emotionally? Just susceptible to it. Oh, so just a bunch of soft-brained idiots looking for parasocial interactions. Yeah, because you want...

I guess... It's the way that, again, in the pandemic, you could see, as I tried to, like you were saying, look for context, as a person. Right. And also through the show. Yeah. Was realizing, oh, there is a completely understandable desire in times of chaos to reach for conspiracy theories. Because they provide a sense of structure when everything is just a knock. Functioning dogma.

I think it's the same way that when, this is to go back to Britain, when Princess Diana died, crazy conspiracy theories about having the Queen bumper off. There was part of me that was completely, could see the appeal in that. Partly because it didn't make any sense that this woman could be killed

in a classic car crash incident in a tunnel. It didn't make sense. And that is frightening. So what makes more sense is, well, the world is fundamentally ordered by this ridiculous old lady with a gold hat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A dark master plan.

It will be done. And that's actually more comforting than the truth is that any of us could get smashed into a column at any second and deal with it. Yeah, and no one's that organized. You know, this isn't fucking movies. You know, I just watched the first John Wick, you know, and I was able to suspend my disbelief to enjoy him, you know, fighting for the... Of course. There's an elemental attraction to John Wick. But that hotel where you use gold coins and just killers...

There's a system. All I'm looking for is a fucking system. Even revenge should have a system to it. Yeah, especially when it's about the death of animals. There has to be a coin-based system. There has to be a location where the rules don't apply. I like this. Yeah.

Yeah, but that's true. Everyone... It's the same thing with religion. The brain is built for it because it can't handle the existential terror of it not having a system. Right? Yes. But it's got- The John Wick universe is a religion in an-

Of course. It's an almost fully formed religious universe. Sure. The Marvel universe is. They're all, the Marvel universe is even more elaborate. You know, that's- I like the coin-based system. Me too the Marvel universe is. They're all, the Marvel universe is even more elaborate. You know, that's... I like the coin-based system. Me too.

And a hotel, a well-run hotel. The no-judgment hotel where you can walk in with, you're holding your arm that's been shot off. Oh, and you allow dogs too? Sure, yeah.

I kind of like this place. So I guess you need us to call the doctor. A good doctor on site. I mean, that's a prestige hotel. Hell of a hotel. Yeah. Hell of a hotel. And if they fuck up, they give you a car. I mean, that's a prestige hotel. Hell of a hotel. Yeah. Hell of a hotel.

And if they fuck up, they give you a car. I'm not saying that. We're sorry, Mr. Wick. I'm not saying the hotel is perfect morally, but I'm saying I'm giving it an excellent review. I had a fantastic stay. Exactly. I've been watching a lot of movies, but I was talking to James and this sort of craving for something, some depth, some place to kind of, you know, keep your emotions in context, you know, somehow to express the feelings that your heart is capable of. I find I've been watching old movies, new movies, like not just to distract me, but just to make sure that my heart is kind of working properly still.

Yeah. Well, you know, that makes sense to me. Yeah. And I guess I felt like that again during the, definitely in the early days of the pandemic, when the body count is getting higher and higher. And you're in New York. I'm in New York doing the show from home, losing my mind. Oh, that's right.

Yeah, the white void. Yeah. And kind of having some version, the best functional version of a nervous breakdown that I can have. Right. Along with everyone, right? Yeah. And part of that concern was that the thing I love more than anything else is making comedy, right? Making a comedy show. Yeah.

And it feels like it's the only way that I can process this. And I don't know if it is remotely appropriate. Right. So whether anyone... is remotely appropriate. Right. So whether anyone... And you're home. Exactly. Whether anyone wants this, it's all projection

because I can't hear a validating or negative response. So it is just one man losing his mind in a tiny room. Yeah. Right? So as crazy as it is to say, the thing that actually gave me the first moment of hope was we got people to track down this rat erotica painting. Very, very, very, very stupid joke. Immensely silly.

The exact kind of thing that I was worried no longer applied when death counts are in the bottom corner of CNN. Death counts are in the bottom corner of CNN. Yeah. Right? And when this guy turned up in like a hazmat suit, presenting me with this 1970s Pennsylvania rap porn painting, there was something so deeply in me that found it funny and ridiculous. It took a significant weight of the world falling apart. Oh, well, if I'm going down, I'm going down joking about dumb shit.

And it gave me more faith in the possibility of a future going forward than I am comfortable admitting. It was the sole bright point I'd had in weeks, and I didn't know if another one was coming. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's revealing of what people need. You know, and also just the fact of interaction the fact that somebody came to you with it

yes exactly exactly it was all of that it was the fact that we'd said can anyone track this painting down

yeah it doesn't matter it doesn't matter the fact that people actually tried to track it down then did then someone was willing to sell it to us

yeah then some yeah guy in a FedEx truck was willing to bring it to me risk his life and I exactly exactly and I could hold up in front of a camera and say something like this feels like hope like it's a joke but it wasn't not a joke really wasn't that was zero percent of a joke. Some things are still working. Yes, I know. I know. Yeah, all the rhythm of a joke presented like you're supposed to laugh at it, but I was being 100% serious. So, I mean, but how do you feel now?

I mean, in the context of going into an election? Or just in general? I mean, you're, like, how like how do you like what is the so let me do it on the mic congratulations on the emmy wins okay thanks and can i i just want to qualify that by saying i get nothing i get nothing i do good work and i get nothing you're you're saying that out loud like you thought it was necessary to say, I heard it through the S of Wins. So I appreciate you saying it, but I guess this speaks to you as an actor, Mark, that you're able to get across the unsaid. That subtext.

Yeah, maybe I should give myself more credit. No one needed that subtext. When you lent in heavily to the mic on Wins, we all heard it. I don't have as much control over that as I'd like as an actor. You have zero control over it. That's what makes you such a magnetic person to watch. Oh, here it is. Oh, it's all coming out.

Good. So now they just need to give awards for that. What do you call that? Can you make a category for it? I'm sure they can. All right. Well, they made you one, didn't they? What happened with your category?

Oh, we got punted Out of our category Yeah Into a different category It's a more challenging Category actually Similar but different Is it

I don't know Why'd you get punted Out of the talk show I have no idea You don't know Nothing to do with me I think you're lying to me It's nothing to do with me

No I know that But why I didn't lobby to say Could you please Could you please Take us out of the Talk show category And put us in the same category

As you know Carol Burnett at 100 And Saturday Night Live Yes Yeah Yeah we were put In a the same category as you know Carol Burnett at 100 and Saturday Night Live yes yeah yeah we were put in a different category yeah but you won it

we won yeah good yeah shows them it will who does it show I don't know

yeah who's them then my parents I don't know HBO were your parents voters David Zaslav were your parents voters

I don't even know who votes for those things no it'll it's uh I appreciate because it'll bias. I think what it probably does for us is bias existence. Of course. I mean, like, if you go, what does HBO have? I mean, haven't they been absorbed by Discovery or somebody? What is it?

Everyone is. Yeah, sure, they've been absorbed by Discovery. They might get absorbed. We've had three different owners in the 10 years that we've been there. I don't think we'll be done here. So, yeah, it's like, you know, new dads moving into the home. You think, do I need to learn your name? Yeah, yeah.

Because I reckon there's another one coming six months behind you. Yeah, yeah, and you just hope they're not abusive. That's right, and they all are. Somehow, one way or the other, whether it's actively or passively. There's a whole sense of you're not my kid with every new dad that comes in. Yeah, I know I'm not. Yeah, but so many of them have so little ability to make new kids that they sort of have to fucking suck it up, don't they? That's right.

They're just given a bunch of fucking orphans, and you're like, good luck. That's right. If these gigantic mergers or anything, they're just mass adoptions. Yeah. And then you're mad at these children i would i would call it a foster situation i don't know if they're actual adoptions yeah we'll watch the kid until somebody else wants it yeah exactly yeah but uh but what is the process because i mean it seems to like i have a hard time talking about certain things

it's taken me months to figure out how to address uh on stage, you know, and here, you know, I'm wary to sort of even ponder it out loud because of my lack of education about the situation in terms of historically. And I don't want to be co-opted or used by either side for, you know, as an example, which seems to be the mode at which public people are utilized. Yes. People think you're going to represent what they think. And if you don't, then fuck you. Yes. You fascist, you anti-Semite, whatever it's going to be. Those are two different things now, by the way.

I never thought I'd see the day. Well, it's nice to be specific with language. You know, we're fascist and anti-Semite. Are the two school, the two operative? Yeah, that's right. Two things can be true. On the Venn diagram, there's some overlap, but there's some separation. Right.

So, yeah, but how do you balance that shit when you are in a writer's room, when you make a decision? To do any show or to talk about Gaza? Yeah. I mean, what is the what is the breakdown how do you choose a story well i mean generally it's from what is like intriguing at first right because you manage to build this machine that can go and find answers for us and we have how does that work well i guess the beauty is you got smart researchers who now partly from the fact they've been on for so long, have access to incredible experts.

And so all of a sudden, you can get real information back. You can. There's guys in your office. There's a room. They can reach out to whoever, whatever story we're talking about to experts, not advocates, although we'll reach out to them as well on all sides to get a sense of what they want and what experts think actually exists. And there can be, obviously, some distance between those two things. And then we'll kind of build a story from there. But those are like, to make the foundation strong, that is where the story begins, whatever we're talking about, whether it's homeowners associations or prison health care. The one topic thing is like it's – what I like about it, not unlike like Rachel at times or that type of show, which there aren't many of, is that this is contextualizing and educating.

Yeah, although we don't – we have the benefit of not having to throw to a commercial break. I think at that point we'd be fucked. Because you lose people, right? You need to hold people's attention. So some of our stories now are 25, 30, 35 minutes. You hold them. Yeah, you hold. And then just drag them back in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's some stuff that might be boring. But look at this. Anyway, we're running prison camps. Yeah, exactly. It's a funny thing. I know. I get the system. I understand running prison camps. Yeah, exactly. Here's a funny thing. I know, I get the system. I understand how it works.

Stick and move. I broke it down. I broke it down. Uh-oh, it's getting a little dense. He's going to do something silly. Here he comes. He's getting up from the desk. He's going somewhere.

Wow, this must have been dark. He's going to do a thing. How much money did that cost at the end? That's right. You've got to reverse engineer. If the whole show ends with a gigantic bird puppet, you know that the 25 minutes running up to that were really dark. Yeah.

Or the end of the year explosion. You'd save up for that. What is it? You collect money from the staff? Or do you make sure you budget the end of the year explosion you aggregate all of your budget you deny how much it actually cost to hbo and then you hope that you win a golden trophy so they don't ask too many follow-up questions and you blow shit up yep you blow shit up which in a act of deep catharsis but like i do like the fact that for some reason, because of, I think, your innate Britishness and your sense of humor, that you do irritate the right.

Oh, just in general. I like to irritate. No, no. But I mean, I don't know if you have to necessarily hold your own. But I mean, they certainly have come after you. Sure. And it's not like you're going to go engage on Twitter all day or anything. No, I'm not.

No, I'm not. But you can address it casually or specifically. That's the thing. I'm not available for those kind of interactions. Right. So, yeah, I will speak through the show. Yeah. That's basically it.

Yeah. But you can speak pretty directly. Yeah, you can speak directly. And I know I'm speaking with deep foundation. Sure. Therefore, I believe completely in what I'm saying. And if you don't like it, then that is absolutely

your prerogative. And you have lawyers. But I know that what I'm saying is factually right. And what about engaging lawyers? How does that work as the show? Do you just have like,

not unlike your research department, do you have a room which is there too? Two layers. We have lawyers. HBO has lawyers. Yeah. You know,

and there's just non-stop tension in there. And some will be working for a month on a story. You keep them out of it. They say, hey, by the way, we're going to talk about Amazon. All of a sudden, oh, we're going to have to conflict out. Oh, are you? Are you going to have to conflict out?

What does that mean? That means Amazon's already a client. We're going to have to get a new lawyer. Yeah. It doesn't matter. It all comes down to. God, we're living in the age of a lawyer yes although the fundamental tension yeah in our show yeah with in our relation with the lawyers is i i think we have two different interpretations of what their job is yeah and i think they would say that their job is to stop us getting sued.

And I would say that their job is to make sure that when we are sued, we win. And the distance between those two things is where real tension happens. Yeah. So it's sort of amazing to me. Either I didn't notice it or this is a relatively new thing that in the last decade, it's been just a fucking amazing time for lawyers. Yes. Everybody sues everybody. Yes. This is the way it works.

Politics, no matter what. Was there always that much suing going on? I don't think there was. I don't know. You'd have to speak to that. Why don't you do a show on that? Suing. I think we, well, we've been sued.

I know that. Well, we did the cold guy, right? Yeah, exactly. Now, can you even talk about that guy? Yeah, because it's done. Well, he's dead now, so you can talk about him. I think it's a net positive for everybody on Earth that he's dead. I think it would have been better if he'd happened sooner. I don't think I'm alone in saying that, but I'd also be fine if it was just me.

Yeah, so for that, right, I knew he was going to sue because he was threatening during the research of that first episode on coal. I knew it was going to happen. It was inevitable. So he did. And then we're tied up for years. And I don't want to minimize the fact that's a lot of time. That's a lot of money that it costs. Our legal insurance goes up.

But I was fiercely of the opinion that HBO should not back down and settle with him because that was his M his MO right he would sue local newspapers with his slap suits and they can't carry those costs so they're going to settle they're going to back down because their existence is under threat so it was just massively important to me that they stood

by us then and to their credit they did meaning that we could win and then tell him to go fuck himself. But even when he eventually abandoned and didn't appeal again, there was, again, the lawyers are really happy saying, okay, it's over. And there's part of me thinking, come on, one more appeal. I'm not done yet. It's like a boxer, like a referee saying, he's done here.

I want to hit him a few more times. I'm still mad. Yeah. The old man. The old man. The old monster. Kick the monster. Kick the old man when he's literally down. He deserves to.

Well, he's going to be familiar with burning. That's right. Yeah. So you would have to speak to, I think from as a, the rest of the world has always seen America as litigious based economy yeah so whether that's been supercharged over the last 10 20 years it seems like most lawyers in america will have an opportunity to defend trump with with something oh sure for that that's again he is just churning through he is a job provider

yeah that sense undeniably and you have to give it to him. He's a tremendous job provider for the law industry. Yes. I don't know if there's the jobs that his crowds think he's providing, but he is providing them. You have to give him that. I will concede that point. Now, what about your protection? I mean, when you started making fun of the Chinese chinese president yeah and this kind of stuff yeah at what level of personal threat do you deal with well like personally emotionally i don't deal with it at all yeah so uh i kind of denied the benefit of yeah i can displace that i can i can laugh at it no matter how big that's how deep the English is. Yeah, because it's the bigger the funnier in my mind. So, yes, we baited Ramzan Kadyrov, who runs Chechnya.

He's very angry. The fact he's going on a Twitter tear against me, it just fills me with joy. It fills a hole that I didn't know I had. These are dangerous men. Yeah, but that kind of... Yes, you're right. I'll concede that.

You sound a little like my wife but yes but i there is a real thrill in irritating them right especially because you know not to analyze it too much you know that they they are very comfortable people and maybe sometimes discomfort in the pettiest possible form is all you can do. So if you know that you've gotten to one of them, there is a there is a charm to it. And I'm not you know, we have security at the show. I they say we need it. I I think it's overblown. But yeah, I always think of the casualness by which the group of mafia leaders killed Aaron Alan King's character in Casino.

Mm-hmm. Why, you know, why not? You know what I mean? It's like, he's a good guy. Yeah. All right. But just for safety's sake, let's take him out. Yes, of course.

But I think the things, I guess the real truth is that some of the things that bring me the most happiness are finding out that people I would like to be annoyed are angry at me. Yeah. So, like, when you hear the Sackler family want to come to the office to speak to you, you're like, oh, they sound really mad. Oh, did they come? No, because that's not how anything fucking works. Like, we were engaging with them during that story. They're like, oh, can we come talk to him? You can talk to us right now through these channels.

This is how this works. We're researching. If it's a kind of charm offensive, let me save you a trip. Well, how's that going to work? Do you like painting? Would you like a painting? We have the whole wing that they're about to take our name off of. Do you want a free museum tour?

I think we're past the free museum tour here. Do you want to do it at night with your wife? Have you Googled your family's surname? Let me do it for you now. I'll just read the first five hits. And it's not a perfect barometer, but it's pretty ugly. They're calling you murderers. Now, legally, I know that's a loaded definition.

Practically, I think the case is there. But ultimately, they still get off with a little bit of money. They're doing fine, aren't they? Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think that's still ongoing, right? But yeah, I think if the deal that they made holds up, then they get off to a shameful, I would argue, criminal extent. Well, it's just sort of interesting. Like, you know, anyone who carries that family's name,

because I know somebody who knows a sackler, and they wanted me to meet them, and they're sort of like, no, she's one of the good sacklers. But believe me, we had so many of those calls. Not that kind of sackler. And then you look them up and you go, I mean, not that kind of sackler. Close.

Yeah. Cousins count. Yeah, exactly. Oh, you were so against what was happening, right? Where do you live? Where are you calling from right now? Yeah, right. That kind of trouble, I really, really like.

Well, that's, I mean, well, you know, you're definitely sticking it to him, which is great. Yeah, it's fun. And on some level, you know, if the leader of Chechnya is like, you know, ranting about you on about you on Twitter he's obviously you know he's doing it in the modern way you know he's not you know you're not walking down the street and you don't take two bullets to the head he's allowed yeah it's a talk to like shit post about me sure on Twitter and Instagram yeah then you have evolved as a person that's because I'm not in a gulag so I actually think this should be celebrated yeah yeah yeah but yeah my wife occasionally will oh, I'd really like to go to Thailand. You go, I can't actually go.

I got a less majest charge in the royal family there. What happened? I can't go. What did you do in Thailand? Oh, nothing. They just made fun of the Thai monarchy. You can't do that. Oh, so there's a chance you go there, you'll be caned? Yeah, and then you

just get picked up at the airport. So maybe I can't go to Thailand. But, you know, would I have enjoyed Thailand as much as I enjoyed insulting the Thai monarchy? I would argue no. But do you enjoy anywhere? Yeah. You do. You like vacations?

No, not at all. No, but, you know, I like going to places. You do? I went vacations? No, not at all. No, but I like going to places. You do? I went to, what's the last time? I mean, I've got little kids now, so I haven't been many places. How many? Two. Oh, okay.

I went to, you know, I went to, very briefly, I went to India to interview the Dalai Lama. So even being there for a few days was fantastic. It looks amazing to me. It's great. It's a truly chaotic place in the best possible way. Yeah. I loved it so much. I am desperate to go back.

Yeah. It really was an almost insultingly brief visit. Did you have to get a lot of shots? No. Oh. No. Things have changed? Do you just stay away from it?

Yeah. I mean, there's like going to any country, you should probably be cognizant of what you're eating and whether your stomach can handle it. But no, it was amazing. On the way back, I went to see Taj Mahal. You did? It's kind of, it's pretty great. Yeah, it's amazing when you look at things that aren't, you know, kind of ruined and boring, like everything in America, England. Oh, come on, Mark.

What? I mean, this is, Britain still has many, many, now, are many of our greatest buildings ruins? Yes, but you've got to think backwards. The context, to go back to context, Mark, you've got to think about. No, I guess what I mean is a different history. Like, obviously, like, I don't mean to be that condescending.

I like England. I like going there and I enjoy the castles. And I like. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I like going there, and I enjoy the castles. And I like... I'm not sure. I'm not sure where... You may never have sounded more American than that. The gardens are nice. I like the castles. The castles, the gardens.

Oh, man. The palaces. Museums. Tremendous. Which king was this? Okay. In one ear, out the other. I loved it.

Right, right. Seen it. Yeah. Check. Same with Ireland. How old's this wall? Holy fuck. That's an old wall. Old. I loved it. Seen it. Check. Same with Ireland. How old's this wall? Holy fuck. That's an old wall. Old. BC.

Yeah. Yeah. What am I supposed to do? I can only take so much history and I can still enjoy the people. I enjoy the people. Well, and I could not recommend India harder. It's an amazing place. But what, okay, so now, okay, what are we going to do about the futility

of... You could let it hang. Feel free to let that hang in the air. Let's just all enjoy the fact that we're all filling it in and coming up with different, equally valid, depressing ends to that sentence. Do you take it, so are you out doing a road show with Seth Meyers? No. I went out for the first time in a long time during the strike.

I got to go out because I had to pay the staff. So I just ran all over the place doing gigs. Yeah, stand-up for the first time in a long time packed together. I try and do it at least once a year, but you know. You know that's not enough. So I got to do it for months. months he brought a variety show on the road he had a no no no just me okay just me uh and then um what'd you do a q a no stand up okay oh boy god you know how to hurt okay i'm actually having to change the way I sit. That hurts so much. God. Damn it. That's a fucking precision strike.

What do you do at Q&A? Because I agree with you. That's a... But the... I'm sorry. No, no. It's not really... Sorry.

You got me. You got me. You just said you've got to do it more than once a year. I ran around clubs quickly. I developed an hour and a half of stamina. I promise. There's no fucking Q&A. It's all A.

Your Qs are not involved here. Okay, good. And it's a valid question, and it wounded to be asked it. A Q&A. The Cowards Entertainment. Any questions? Did you do any work? The Cowards Entertainment. I apologize. I apologize. Did you do any work?

Or are we bearing some of the responsibility for tonight's entertainment? I'm riffing. I'm riffing. This is what people like, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Oh, is it? Well, we'll see about that. It's a big business for people, the Q&A.

Here's a question. Is the next hour and a half going to feel enough at the end of it? Yeah. Here's the answer. Not from the look of your face right now. Some of next hour and a half going to feel enough at the end of it? Yeah. Here's the answer. Not from the look of your face right now. Some of these guys hit a certain age, you just go out with some slides from the career,

and then you do the Q&A at the end. Damn it. That's a big night at the retirement center. Okay, let's make an agreement right now. If either you or I get in that position, the other one is coming and putting a pillow over our face. That's fine. That's fine. I will hold it until the twitching stops

the day you say, hey so slide, Air America No, I will admit What was the farmer like? I will admit to having done like an hour and a half, two hour show and not quite knowing how to get off stage and be like, alright so

That's fine, in fact in full disclosure, when Seth and I do, we're going to do the beacon once a month. Yeah. We'll each do an hour stand up.

Yeah. Then we will do a Q&A at the end. But before the Q&A, to your point, just to show exactly how sensitive I am to this. Yeah.

I will say, the lights will come on and go, this evening is over. Right? Contractually, we're done. If you want to stay

for some Q&A, you can. I will understand if you leave. You've for some q a yeah you can i will understand if you leave you've got a three minute period now yeah get out how many leave let's say we've only done it a couple of times less than you'd think and i think less 10 minutes in than than wanted to when they realize oh this is about just a flounder but right yeah but after doing tight stand up it it's it is attractive to have a bit of chaos with yeah loosen it up yeah yeah all right so you go out and you were doing that too but you weren't because i thought i saw bill with you and seth in santa fe or somewhere no no no no we just

do we just do the beacon together oh maybe that was just the seth show yeah could be yeah so his in-laws are in uh albuque. Oh, okay. All right. So you did the stand-up just to keep the money coming in? Yeah. Basically, yeah, just move the money into payroll. Okay. Now, here's my question about futility, is that when you remove tolerance from the cultural discourse or when you remove tolerance from the civic body, which is what's happening, democracy is relatively impossible. for tolerance and people double down on being intolerant. Yeah. The idea that you're talking to like-minded people all the time, I just feel like there's no bridging the gap anymore. So what are we doing?

Just giving people relief? Oh, I see what you mean. I mean, maybe some some will be a relief. Maybe you'll inspire somebody to do something that actually matters. Me? Anybody. Anyone. It's just like I talk a lot about the polarization of comedy,

that there is a separate show business that is driven by entrepreneurial comics, which is fine but there's also a new audience you know based on you know uh an amalgamation of of mma people uh conspiracy whack jobs uh you know people that uh only eat meat and um there's this idea that they're comedy fans but they're really not there's a tribalization going on but there is a line being drawn in terms of what comedy should be and it's bothersome of course it's bothersome it's just it feels also intellectually bankrupt totally what it should be to who like yeah to a certain extent right is to decide what they want to go and see right so you can you can go and see a comedian who eats nothing but meat if you want. Yeah. Again, we've given voice to too many.

And now, theoretically, I could be framed now as exactly what the liberal agenda, the liberal authoritarianism. Theoretically, in bad faith, you can be framed as anything. And fighting that is Sisyphean. Yeah, especially when it comes to jokes. How many jokes can you do like on your show that they're reacting to as if you said something completely serious. That this is a position point and it was a joke. Yeah. I really try not to do that.

Like the idea of applause without laughter is painful. No, but I mean like how it can be reinterpreted or recontextualized that, like, he wasn't making a joke. This is how he feels. Oh, yeah. Shit, man. I mean, you know this. Yeah. Deep down, you are pouring energy down a fucking drain.

Yes. Because I think... Responding to that. Yeah, definitely. Responding to it, either literally responding to it or even physically responding to it in any way because you can't control it you just can't as frustrating as that is and as a control freak yeah like letting that go is frustrating yeah but you can't control it no of course so for some of

our stories on the show yeah there are points at which right you don't want it just to be a bomb right you don't just want to preach to the choir yeah so there are there are stories that we do that you know are going to be to generalize our audience into one type are going to be something that they might not agree with and so then you are trying to move them slightly yeah on that right issue slowly but significantly and you've and I'm sure you have success with that because that within American history would not suggest that. But yeah. No, but I mean, within what individually, hopefully. Yeah. But within like this idea that there's an organized left is fucking ridiculous. Yes. And so when you deal with democratic ideas or progressive ideas, there's there's going to be points of conflict, especially now. So ultimately, the best that we can do is facilitate some sort of conversation within the fucking left tent. Yes.

You just can't. You just don't want to make the mistake of engaging in good faith with a bad faith argument because that then you're going nowhere. Yeah. Now, what do you think is going to happen? I don't. In your darkest, in your heart of hearts. I don't know.

I mean, in the darkest heart of hearts, I worry that we're going to head to a really bad place. You just got to, I don't know what you place your hope in. I guess not the innate goodness of people. I think we've what you place your hope in, but the, not the innate goodness of people. I think we've come up snake eyes on that role, but I think like the, the deep energy of people who are going to work harder at this than I might believe is possible. Uh, uh, you got to hope that they come through.

Yeah. So the, the bad place let's, let's, uh, let's illustrate it a little, uh, illustrate you again, look around. I mean, cause we're, you know, we're, we're in America in an election year, never the funnest place to be right. This is never America during election year is never this nation at its best. It's at its most reductive. Uh, you got Roe v. Wade overturned, Christopher Stone in front of the Supreme Court. Yeah. We are, this is going to be a difficult year, I think.

Yeah. And it could end badly. Yep. It definitely could. And for, yeah, for people to have any sense that, well, there's no way that's going to happen. I don't know where you get that confidence from. That might be. Yeah, I don't either. That deep American confidence of everything's going to be fine feels like, well, that's the response of a sociopath.

Sure. But I mean, but like on the other side of that, and I don't think they are thinking this way, is that, you know, I would say probably, I don't know what the percentage is. Get your researchers on it. How many of the countries on the planet are autocratic or dictatorships, right? Yeah, it feels like there's been a shift. Towards more of those? Yeah, but I don't know that statistically that is true. It feels like there has been a surge, you know, where that is on the graph over centuries.

I don't know. But what I'm saying is that when somebody says things will be all right, it's like, what is all right for them? Yeah. Do you know, like, is it going to change the Netflix menu? You know, can I still do the rock wall at the place? You know, like, I mean, what does it mean to people? Like, you know, I've always... Yeah, that's a...

So that's true. I guess what's all right is... You know, I love America. I've chosen to become an American. I love this country. I think it has been very convenient at times in the last hundred years for America to fall back

on one of its greatest attributes, which is selfishness. So it's like when this country goes to war, the answer is not collective sacrifice. It's sacrifice of a very few people. And also, hey, you need to stimulate the economy. Go and buy yourself a third fridge. And you go, got it.

Yeah, on it. Got it. New tires. That's right. Absolutely. As a consumer, I will consume. It's the easiest thing for me to do, and I'll do it. Right.

Collective sacrifice as to go back to what you were talking about in the pandemic. That feels like, well, now you've exposed an ecclesial in America, which is that is not something in an individualistic country that people are as willing to do. And that you've got to reckon with. Right. And that is a weak point. What, a bunch of selfish fucks? Well, yeah, which has, like, if you buy in to the argument of capitalism, it'll be, well, that will supercharge your economy. Sure.

And it would like. Yeah. It'll correct itself. Sure. It'll correct itself. Rising tide lifts all boats. Triggle down. Sure.

It's never worked, but maybe next time. Yeah. And that. But there is a weird thing to entitlement and to the fact that, you know, there is no real center to anything anymore. And people are engaged in their own information foraging and their own lifestyle foraging that they live through parasocial engagement with any number of fucking dum-dums. Yeah, and because there's nothing inherently wrong with information foraging for yourself, right? If you're really foraging. But I mean, right.

yourself right if you if you're really foraging but i mean right but i mean but what's happened is there is no uh kind of uh you know honest civic dialogue and there's no real sense of human interaction in the same way that there used to be there is no one thing that everybody watches there is no information that anybody can trust there's no sort of barometer of of journalistic integrity that that everybody can get on the same page for. That everyone agrees with, right? Right. Internally, there is definitely a barometer of journalistic integrity, but you're right, they differ from person to person.

Right. So that becomes a real problem because that means that, like, in terms of the ships rising, it's like, what is the most effective bullshit that's going to make everybody feel sated emotionally. That has nothing to do with the integrity of the truth or the information or anything else. I'm not talking about economical. I'm talking about cultural and political.

And so that becomes this really weird problem that the nature of what democracy required as a civic responsibility, even an understanding of tolerance and like, you know, we got to help the little guy out. It's fucking gone. Yeah. This is great. Yeah, I mean, I think the answer to your question

of what's going to happen next, I don't know what the answer is, but I think we are going to answer it in the next five years. I think there are, in the future, they will look back at this time and they'll either say,

oh, they really managed just to avoid disaster or, wow, they just kept driving that right off the cliff, huh? They just held hands like German Louise and they slammed the pedal down.

Or like, what happened to John Oliver? Is he... Did they put him where... Do you know where they put him? I mean, he was like a thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Which, which, which. Oh, yeah, that guy. Which entertainment prison is he in? Is he with the Jews or with the other ones? I remember he was really giggling to himself as they dragged him in there. He kept muttering something about really liking trouble. And then they shut the door. They shut the door.

He got quiet. Yeah, but I've heard that he does a show in there for nobody. There's no camera, but he still— He's just loudly yelling, it's not Q&A, at the guards. How dare you suggest otherwise? This is densely written jokes to a fault. But how do you like—I mean, you did a show on Sinclair, right? Yeah.

So as a broadcaster and stuff, I mean, let's just talk about specifically specific fears. Like, let's say that, like, because I have no doubt that most corporate entities will buckle to any sort of fascism as long as they can keep their bottom line correct yeah though you're right their moral compass will be the bottom line i think right so it'll be the not solely i wouldn't want to be that cynical but i think the primary motive i think it's pretty clear yeah from the way national news organizations special kevin news is set up yeah is profit-led. So they are going to make decisions like, oh, let's give Trump a town hall because it will rate,

which is true. If you are making a financial decision, that's the responsible decision to make. So when you think about the worst-case scenario for humor or for punching up or for doing what you love to do in a future that, you know,

is compromised in terms of what can and can't be said. We're not there yet, but how do you really not though? That's the thing to remember. Yeah. Yeah. I know. We're totally not.

We that's right. That is total bullshit. Total. You can't say this is so flagrantly proven. You can say anything. Yes. You could say fucking anything, provably wrong. No, you can say anything. Yes. You could say fucking anything, almost anywhere. It's just, you know, no one will listen.

And I think that when that happens, you get people going like, I'll probably get canceled. No one hears you. No, you're still saying it. Yes, yes. No one hears you. But that is sort of, that is true. You can't really say anything. And I think that that's what the beautiful thing about having, being so lawyered up is that you can actually push it to wherever.

And it's what I would say is where we, just to go back to Arsha, where we're lucky because we are not in commercial television. Yeah. So, and if ever I feel complacent about that for a second, it doesn't take long for me to be reminded by seeing something just how lucky we are to not have to take commercial breaks and to not have to have a phone call saying, Hey, can we not talk about Delta airlines though? Cause they're a sponsor. Yeah. That, that is a conversation. I, I am too stubborn to have the capacity to have that without saying, okay, well, I'm going to burn everything to the ground. Right. Watch me do it. Right. Well, yeah. I mean, you're fortunate. I can't play.

Massively fortunate. But I mean, is that one of the reasons why you didn't stay on network? I mean, did that factor into? No. Oh. I didn't stay at the Daily Show because John was still there. No, but even if you were set up to be the next guy, did that factor into your decision not to follow up on that?

The next guy for... To host a show, to Daily Show. The Daily Show? Yeah. They didn't. I think it was clear when we were... Because my contract expired at the end of the year that I hosted for John over that summer. Yeah.

And I think it became clear at the end of that that they didn't really care about me. Oh, really? Okay. Because I think our idea for me to stay this is our idea being just john and i yeah was that i would do the summers from now on and then so he could take uh he could take the summers off which he wanted a break i think they could have had him for longer if they'd allowed that but they were not interested in that at all so then it becomes clear oh then you really don't care. Which is fine, but it is now painfully obvious. So I should probably go somewhere else.

Right, okay. And then, yeah, talking to various commercial outlets, there was just an innate instinct of, I don't, I could do this. I don't think it'll go great. Yeah. There might be a way that I can find myself to doing the things that I used to love Letterman,

doing when he's just, you know, criticizing his parent company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was the model. But I don't have the Letterman. No, no, no. I just, I always loved that instinct with him. But I had no standing with us to do that.

So a much easier move, the luxury move to me was to go to HBO where there is no corporate or commercial pressure from advertisers, so you truly can say what you want. And therefore, you should probably use that. And it works out. Well, yeah. I mean, some would disagree. No. They would say, this is a piece of shit.

No, who would ever say that? It's been like a decade, right? How long has it been? Yeah, 10 years. But so that is why, when we're force feeding our audience on stories about prison labor prison health care solitary confinement things that they don't just just to do criminal justice stories yeah things that you know they're not yeah that interest but you think they're important yeah they really do think they're important so i'm we're gonna we're in the position where we're able to force feed an audience

so we do it. Yeah, it's good. It's like, it's important. It's like how they, you know, I think, don't they feed pigs like that? Don't they? Isn't that how foie gras, you force feed the duck, right?

Yeah, we're trying to make a kind of comedic foie gras by smashing a story about Gaza down an audience's throat. Until their liver explodes in goodness. What a delicious liver. So how old are the kids? Eight and five.

Now, how old are you? I mean, you didn't wait that long. You're younger than me. Oh, so you did it at the right time. Yeah. Yeah. You're right on schedule. Good for you. Yeah, I felt on schedule. Yeah. So. I mean, the truth is it didn't feel on schedule. I didn't feel like I was ready for it at all. But I think numerically it was on schedule.

Yeah. Emotionally, I was terrified. Okay. So, but you're done with that or is every day a horror show? Oh, I mean, it's not, not a horror show. No, but I mean. I'm anxious about it all the time. In terms of your fears heading into it, did you take to it pretty easily? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I didn't take to it... I guess, yes, yes, generally. Although that pause really puts an asterisk on the yes.

I guess the truth is that... I didn't interrupt that pause at all. I just was... My son, he was born very prematurely. Oh, that's nice. Scary. So it's, yeah, it's terrifying. So it's a real, like, supercharges anxieties. So I was very worried about him before he was born.

Yeah. And for a year after he was born, really worried about him. Um, yeah, he's fine. He's fine. But, but, and, and, and so I was worried about him long past the point that doctors were saying, no, we're good. You go, really? We'll see about that. Cause I can manifest some very

different specific answers yeah it's gonna happen here yeah so uh yeah i i love them so much yeah but it's but and that love is physically painful in the way that you i think is to any parent yeah but it was uh yeah i think that made it was not the smoothest entry into parenting. Into parenting, yeah. Because it was so fraught. Yeah, it was fraught. It was incredibly fraught. But the kid's good. Yeah, he's great.

100%. Yeah, I love him. And the other one came out good. The doctors literally said that. Came out good. Congrats. That's it? Yeah.

There's two boys? Yeah. Oh, wow. Two boys, yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Oh, wow. Two boys, yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah, they're fantastic. And what has it done to your point of view?

I don't know if it's done much instinctively to my point of view. I mean, in terms of the urgency of things, how do you, you know, confront what you're confronting? I mean, what do you do with it? I think ideally it would affect my risk management equation, but it really hasn't. Well, there's that. But also I wonder, you know, somebody who, you know, is balancing this information and also, you know, has an intellectual capacity to understand what's going on. You're engaged with it in a very daily way. I mean, where do you find the hope?

Oh, you mean how to – yeah. How do you parent? I'm going to get into it. So eight and five, I'm not – there have not been many – not lying. I really don't do that. But I do try only to answer their questions and then not just give them more information. So Q&A.

That's basically Q&A. Yeah, I don't have like a tight hour on what it is to be a young male American. Today I just say, what have you got? What are you concerned about? Alright, yeah, I can give you a quick 30 second answer on that and we'll both pretend it's

something. It's basically parenting Q&A. Devoid of any kind of prior effort. Just let me just react to where you are. Right. Yeah. And when does the real responsibility start? I don't know.

I don't know. In terms of like, we got to sit down. I got very lucky, as horrendous as it was, just practically, in those early pandemic days. Yeah. I knew I was in a very fortunate position. They were four and two then, they're probably not going to remember any of it. Right.

If it doesn't last long, we're going to be okay. Yeah, and even knowing, oh, this is probably going to last a couple of years, still, this is, they're going to remember very little of this. Right, it's not going to destroy them. And holy shit, I was grateful for that. Yeah.

It felt very different looking at or imagining what, what it would be like as a teenager or as a parent of a teenager. Yeah. Oh shit. Actually, I don't know how to answer what you're asking right now. Right. Um,

without falling apart. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's coming. So I think it's coming, but it's not there yet. I'll put it off. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's coming. So I think it's coming, but it's not there yet. I'll put it off.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. You know, it's like, yeah, there just seems to be a lot in the balance. And it feels to me that, you know, the fortitude, you know, that like my producer who you know, Brendan, you know, he's got it in his head that, like, you know, we've been lucky. You know, and you look around the world. True. And it sort of might be our turn.

Oh, sure. Empires rise, empires fall. Right. So there's that, you know, that kind of, you know, preemptive. Yeah, that's something, though. It is. Yeah. It is.

Yeah, that's something, though. It is. Yeah. It is. And then for me, like, oddly, when I look at my recent specials and I look at what I've talked about, what I get passionate about, like, I feel like I've said my piece. And, you know, I don't do the kind of show where I'm going to say it every fucking show. Yeah. And then there comes to a point it's sort of like, you know, I've never been doing light entertainment.

Do you know what I mean? No one would ever have accused you of that. Yeah. I mean, at any point. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I agree with you. Even when light requirement was required. I'll tell you, man.

Like, I've been doing this joke and, you know, and like Chris Rock was in the room the other night, you know. And, you know, I did this bit that I've been doing for weeks now, and he gave me a tag, and it was a tag I would never have come up with because I don't use much cultural reference because I'm in my own fucking world. It's just not the type of comedy I do, but it's a cultural reference, and it fucking kills. And I realized this has been the key.

I am rendering it down to, you know, to a risky philosophical idea most of the time that should get a laugh, you know, just in the way I frame it. But I don't just have any trivial, fun things. Yeah, but that's – but you know that. I know that, but like – You know that that's what certain people, I would be one of them, like about you, right? I guess so. Yeah, it's a specific type of person it's a specific the way i picture it going for me because i don't have this massive audience or

massive nut or a bunch of people i make money for is that like i feel like i've done my my bit right and i can stop you're ready to as a comedian as like an animal to crawl into the woods and say okay not die but crawl into the woods and maybe i didn't say die you forget that to crawl into the woods and say, okay, this is... Not die, but crawl into the woods and maybe... I didn't say die. You've forgotten that. Just crawl into the woods and look at some trees. Sure. Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, you've earned that for yourself. Yeah, but is that copping out? Is it cowardly? I don't think that's copping out at all.

Is it? I don't know. I always say like... What happened to the good fight? Do you know what the good fight is? No. I don't know. Fighting the good fight. You're still fighting the good fight. Is there a good fight that has to be fought? Oh, yeah. There are thousands of good fights.

I know. I know. And I barely fought any of them. Broad strokes. You fought the good fight against yourself, Mark. The kind of civil war that you fought has been relentless and incredible. Yeah. Both sides are exhausted. The north and the south

are saying, are we done yet? No one has picked up any new territory. The whole thing seemed futile. A definition of an emotional quagmire is what you've been fighting. I will say, to go into what you were just saying before, which is kind of related to what we started talking about,

when I think about those questions that might be coming from my kids, I do think there will be a value, even as frustrating as I know you find it, to giving historical context for how we got here. So even as you're describing to the mess that they're currently in, that their country's currently in, it's going to be really important to explain why. Because otherwise, it seems inexplicable, and it isn't, right?

There's precedent all the way. That's right. You should give your kids a good sense of who to blame. Yeah. But I felt shortchanged just as a British person not having a fully developed sense of British history and what it meant. It's so much of it. There's so much.

You're right, but it's very, very easy because there's so much of it to focus on the good bits, which are good, but they actually don't speak to why Britain is how it is. So the basic things that I was taught in history lessons at school

kind of came around the same story. Industrial Revolution, Second World War. Both of those things. The macro story is it was hard, but we got it done. That's right. We did the right thing. So you don't talk about colonialism or imperialism? No.

I mean, really didn't talk about it, though. Really didn't. And that is a colossal short change. You feel the absence of it now. My friend, you would like it. A friend that I went to college with, Satnam Sankara, wrote a great book called Empire Land, which is basically filling in the gaps that we had through the deficiency

in the way that British history was taught in our schools. Oh, wow. And it fully... And it's a very readable book, which is crazy when you're taking on something that's so sprawling. Helps you understand why Britain is the way it is right now. And that there are answers to those questions that are not just, well, we had an empire and then it was taken away from us.

It didn't collapse. Yeah. And I felt at the end of that book both massively more able to understand the country that brought me up. Yeah. more able to understand the country that brought me up yeah and and also pretty angry at the fact that i i'm i'm learning some of this in my mid-40s and that this i i think that is changing always if you're looking for hope like he's written a children's version of this book as well for kind of like 12 and 13 year olds and he's done a really good job at meeting them where they are and kind of just walking them into some things they might be interested in, giving them some ways to go and look at more of this if they want to now or maybe later.

But that's changed. Young kids' relationships in Britain with Britain's past is different now in a way that is far more informed and probably does bode better for the future because they have that context. Yeah, but state by state here, that book, if it was relative to American history, would be banned. And that's a massive problem because you cannot, it is understandable

to want people to have a better history than the one they actually do have, but it's fucking dangerous because you are setting them up for failure or disaster in the future or complete denial yeah because you get very again america gets defensive and they were well honorees shining city on a hill you think sure not no but yeah it's other things as well yeah yeah i don't know where that the ability to sort of shoulder that stuff. I don't know what is really contentious out there and what isn't.

I know what kind of pulsates through my phone. But I don't know what... That's right. That is hard to tell, isn't it? And I think we're probably going to get a weaponized version of that over the next year. Because in an election season, you don't know. Do you give a shit as much as you think you do about bathroom bills? Yeah.

Or is this horse shit? Do you really care about this? Maybe. I actually don't know the answer to that. It feels fraudulent to me. I think what might be the case is that the people

really stoking the flames on that couldn't give a fuck. Of course. But the people that listen to them all of a sudden do. And that couldn't give a fuck. Of course. But the people that listen to them all of a sudden do, and then you've got a problem. Well, right. It's all this sort of they want to be worked up. It's all this general grievance, just this broad grievance ideology.

I'm getting fucked somehow, and this guy seems mad. In fact, you're complaining about grievance the pipe piper of grief no i you're the you you're the shining angry city on a hill i think that i'm a completely objective uh uh narrator of what's going on with our why are these people so mad i mean just listen to the tone of voice in which you're saying that. Physician, heal myself. Oh, I know.

But, you know, this is... I know exactly what you mean. I'm just... I know, I know. I think I'm pretty sensitive. I enjoy getting worked up. But, you know, ultimately... That is the difference, isn't it?

Yeah. You are really sensitive. Yeah. And I don't think people are innately good. I think they're innately sad. And, you know, what they do with that sadness is to avoid it is the danger. I think you're right. Yeah.

Nice way to end. It was good seeing you. Oh, great seeing you. Do we both just kind of sob quietly to ourselves and throw to an Adam and Eve commercial? Yeah, right now. I wish we still had Adam and Eve. Maybe we'll put one in just for old time's sake. Just for old time's sake.

If nothing else, let sex toys be the answer to a complicated question. Believe me, they are for many people. It was great seeing you. It's so good to see you. There you go. That's how you do it. That's how you have a conversation jam session. The new

season of Last Week Tonight with John Oliver premieres Sunday, February 18th on HBO. Hang out for a second, will ya? Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Folks, next week, I talk with director, writer, and producer Ed Zwick. We talk about his life and show business and some of his most memorable movies, including Glory. There was something that I was seeing that was undeniable. It was just happening in front of me. That Denzel and Morgan and Jimmy and Andre, that they were in a kind of rapture.

They heard something. They were... Their history. It was their history. And in fact, I initially may have been timid or hesitant to take advantage of that until I thought about my own grandfather and how easily it would have been for me to lapse into that sort of shtetl dialect. Sure. Because it was available to me in the same way this is all available to them.

It comes down through the generation. It's right there. Yeah. So what I did, and this is something I'm proud of in the movie, which is I resisted these impulses to turn it into that white savior narrative because there were pressures on all sides to do something like that. Yeah. And I did not. In fact, I did the opposite.

That's Ed Zwick on Monday's episode. And then after that, it's all Oscar nominees all the time for the rest of the month and probably not necessarily ones you're thinking it will be. Here you go. Little echo on that strat, please. Thank you. © transcript Emily Beynon Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.