WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1511 - Ed Zwick

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Ed Zwick’s career as a director, writer and producer in Hollywood lends itself to the full memoir treatment, complete with stories about stars behaving badly and development disasters. But Ed’s new book also serves as a guide to mentorship in a business where every bit of help counts. Ed and Marc discuss some of his most successful productions, like Glory, The Last Samurai and thirtysomething, as well as some of the lumps he took along the way. Plus, Marc pays tribute to the late Mojo Nixon. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuck nicks, what's happening? I'm Mark Maron, this is my podcast, welcome to it. Nice to have ya. How's everything going with you? Did y'all have a nice Super Bowl Sunday? Did you cook the things?

Did you have the people over? Did you make the dip? Did you get shit-faced? Did anybody throw up? Were there big problems? I am recording this as literally, I guess, the Super Bowl is underway as I record this. And I will actually tell you, and this is not coming from any position of condescension or judgment, but I've never watched a Super Bowl in my life.

And again, I'm not being judgmental. If that's the way you want to spend your Sunday on that once a year, you know, have fun. It seems like people enjoy it. I know that people get excited about the commercials. I think that's once that started, I realized I'm happy I'm out. I have nothing against sports. Just know that. I really don't. Some sports I don't understand. Some sports are more interesting than others. But I don't know.

Maybe that's what I'm lacking. God knows I've talked about that a lot. So listen, today on the show, Ed Zwick is here. He's the director of Glory, the movie, great movie, watched it again. Legends of the Fall, one of my favorites, actually. The Last Samurai, fun movie. I don't know if people call it fun, but it's a good movie. The Siege, many other movies he directed. He's the co-creator of the television series 30-something, he directed. He's the co-creator of the television series 30-something. And once and again, 30-something, that was a big deal. That almost single-handedly defined boomer culture post The Big Chill on its own. So he's got this new memoir out. It's called Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions,

My 40-something Years in Hollywood. And it's kind of a how-to. There's a lot of practical advice for people who want to be in motion pictures in this book. But there's some good stories, too. I enjoy talking to the guy. Tour dates. Portland, Maine. I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th. Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th.

Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia. I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. Boise, Idaho. Just added. I'm at the Egyptian Theater on Saturday, March 23rd as part of the Comedy Fort at Tree Fort Music Fest 2024. That would be this year. I guess I didn't have to say that part. Comedy Fort at Tree Fort Music Fest 2024. That would be this year.

I guess I didn't have to say that part. Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater on Wednesday, April 3rd. Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th. Chicago at the Vic Theater on Friday, April 5th. Minneapolis at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th. Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets. Yeah, it's coming up. All the dates. I was fortunate that I did the two dates. Then I conveniently broke my foot. Well, it was actually the day of the San Diego shows. But now I don't really start the tour in earnest until March 7th.

So hopefully it'll be all better by then. Are you totally stuck in the past when it comes to your online presence? It might feel like you just updated your website recently, but you realize it's been a decade and you're way behind the times. Get yourself over to squarespace.com slash WTF and start making a beautiful website that has everything you need for today. We created wtfpod.com using Squarespace, but that's just one example of how you can make Squarespace work for you. Because if you need to post and share videos, you can do that easily with the Squarespace video studio. Or maybe you want to have subscriber content like we do. You can do that with the Squarespace member areas and find out who's visiting your site and how they're interacting

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I just shit my pants. Justcoffee.coop. That's a classic. Classic ad that sometimes follows the slurp, which I didn't intend to. It was almost reflex. Anyway, look, you guys, sad news. We've had many former guests pass away. And it used to be before so many of the episodes were available, we'd repost episodes if they were behind the paywall out of respect for the dead. But here's a guy who died last week at age 66, which is not old, Mojo Nixon. Mojo Nixon. Apparently he had what they're calling a cardiac event in his sleep while on an outlaw country cruise docked in San Juan. Mojo Nixon. His real name was Neil McMillan, but he went by Mojo Nixon because, as he said,

they were two words that shouldn't go together. Now, he was on a live WTF back in 2011. Now, the thing about Mojo Nixon, Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper did a few records. That was his partner. And I saw them once at the Paradise Theater in Boston. And I got such a fucking kick out of this guy's energy. It was crazy. It was sort of a blues country novelty act thing. He played guitar. And I think Skid played a washboard. At some point, you know, Mojo was playing a water bottle. And they did a bunch of silly songs, certainly.

Many of them were silly. Some of them were silly. Like he did Elvis' Everywhere. He did a song called Ain't Gonna Piss In No Jar. One of my favorites, I'm Gonna Dig Up Howlin' Wolf. Great, great song. Dark, but you know, satire. Ain't gonna piss in no jar. One of my favorites. I'm gonna dig up Howlin' Wolf. Great. Great song. Dark.

But, you know, satire. Dirty. He was crass. He did The Amazing Bigfoot Diet. He did, there's so many. Burn Down the Malls. Jesus at McDonald's. Okay, so this guy was really a novelty act in a way,

but I liked the way he played guitar, and I liked the way he sang, and I liked his energy. And I remember when we got him on, it was a live WTF. I was so fucking excited. I couldn't believe that I got Mojo Nixon on my show. It was live.

It was taped at the Steve Allen Theater in Los Angeles, as I said, in October 2011. He was on the show with Jonah Ray, Steve Mazin, Maranzo Vance, Jim Earl, and Eddie Pepitone. We released that as episode 241. and out of respect and in memoriam i want to play for you the segment i did with mojo nixon real name neil mcmillan on this live wtf so rest in peace mojo rest in peace neil i really got a kick out of you buddy here we go how you doing man i'm good mark how you i'm fucking great i'm thrilled that you're here i saw you in the paradise in boston and uh you were pounding on water jugs and i was the sonic love jugs yeah and we were talking about psychedelic mushrooms you weren't high were you oh? Oh, yeah, I was. Back when you was high.

Yeah, I was really high. And it was like speaking to me, all the noise. So now what happened to Skid? Skid Roper's currently serving time in Louisiana. We can't talk about that right here tonight. Are you serious? No, I'm fucking lying. I'm a musician.

I'm full of shit. What's more full of shit than a comedian? A musician. Musician. Where you been, man? I've been down in San Diego. I've been working on the radio. I'm on Sirius Satellite Radio.

In fact, I have a political talk show. It's called Lying Cocksuckers. Yeah. You know, because that's what politicians are. Absolutely. In fact, you were talking about Bush earlier. I started it because, you know, Bush invaded Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9-11, and nobody was saying anything about it.

So I would go on like 27-minute rants. Yeah. You know, that had a lot of, and another thing! Yeah. And I'd just record these things, and I'd see my face in the mirror. I looked like Hitler giving one of them damn speeches. My hair was all gone. I was sweating. I'd have a headache afterwards.

And the mustache you had didn't help at all. So how are you feeling now? You know, I'm pretty much done with music. I've been doing... Really? I host this show, Outlaw Country, every weekday afternoon. That's got Steve Earle, Lucinda yeah yeah you know uh rednecks hopped up on goofballs sure how about the originals george jones oh george jones and all the way back to jimmy rogers yeah all three hanks and we play all that hey three is a fucking trip man fuck shelton is a motherfucker yeah you can put it that way and uh so that's i do that and i also have a nascar talk show i'm from Danville, Virginia. I love NASCAR. I have a NASCAR talk show called Manifold Destiny.

You have to say it like that every time. It's just fucking exhausting. I did the show last night. I did the show last night. And I know it's a good show when somebody goes, hey, Manifold. They start calling me. It's supposed to be Mojo Nixon's manifold, Dexter. They start calling me, hey, manifold, man,

tell me about that race. Woo! No, that's sort of like, it's weird, because most of us sort of northern-minded liberal fucks think that NASCAR is just for morons. No, no, no, no, no, no. All sports is stupid. NASCAR, right, you're chasing a ball, no no all sports is stupid nascar right you're chasing a ball right all sports is stupid nascar is just our stupid sport but here's the thing nascar starts with guys

running moonshine yeah running moonshine they got these hopped up cars to get away from the revenuers yeah some some genius goes why don't we put those cars in a circle we'll sell beer and fried chicken and maybe we'll have a bluegrass man and we'll start butt dancing yeah and then all through the hills of southern virginia north carolina you can hear that we're scaring the living shit out of I did. Yes. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Danville, Virginia, which is right on, just north of Chapel Hill. Grew up in a small town.

You know, and I went to college in Ohio. I didn't know I was a hillbilly. Yeah. Until I raised my hand in class and said, Sir, that's the epitome. When's anybody going to say epitome in Danville, Virginia? I could read. Do you really come from hill people? Nah, you know, my parents are from small towns in North Carolina, and they were desperate to be middle class.

Because they grew up during the Depression, and they were dirt poor. But they were hillbillies. They didn't have chickens in the yard, but their parents did. So you grew up with that whole diet? Oh, yeah. All I did, my mother used to have a can,

a coffee can full of bacon grease right behind the stove. She'd just reach in there, get the good stuff. That's why I'm in the shape I'm in today. I ain't going to be going jogging. Didn't you hurt your hand walking? I hurt my hand, yeah.

I was getting so fat and so old, I ran my hand into a door jam and it swolled up. It looked like a tick was on there. There's a lot of ticks around here. I need some water. My mouth done got all dry. I was going to drink before the show.

I got to drive back to San Diego. I can drunk drive, but 110 miles is my limit. Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting older. Yeah, you got to slow down. I swear, we used to play club lingerie. We'd play club lingerie.

We'd drink through the whole show. We'd drink on the way home. Then I'd snort a big line of Speed off the back of my hand. Make it through Camp Pendleton. Yay! Back to San Diego. My wife say, how'd the show go? Oh, good, baby.

It showed up fine. Must go fine. Speed, that was a good one, huh? Oh, yeah. Somebody gave me Adderall. Yeah. Oh, man. They gave me seven.

You really need Adderall. They gave me seven Adderalls. Yeah. I'd been awake for two days, so I took one. Well, that was good. Yeah. So I took two more. Well, pretty soon, within a half hour, I've taken all seven.

That was on Sunday morning. I didn't go to sleep until Wednesday night. And I just want to say I might have touched myself more than 100 times. That's why I got these short pants on. Easy access, huh? Well, the legs off, taking them off so much. They were full pants before you started taking the drugs. Sometimes when you're that jacked up,

is this too much information? No, fuck no, man. I one time took mescaline, and I didn't think it was going to hit, so I waited four hours, I left the party, I got home, and it hit. And I didn't know what else to do but jerk off. And I sat there and jerked off like three or four times. And every time I came, it was like Aztec pinball machines.

It was like I was on a different planet, and I thought everything was great. But as soon as I got done with that, I was like, should I go to the emergency room? That was a half-and-half drug experience. I was once on a bunch of speed and it got really wasted and then I was done cleaning my apartment and I was drunk enough to go to my neighbor's apartment and ask if I can clean theirs.

It's a very spiritual vacuum. Just let me clean up your back. I'm not weird, man. I'm just high. You see me in the hall, man. It's okay, right? I'm not the, man. I'm just high. You see me in the hall, man. It's okay, right? It's not the only one. No.

It's common. So now, what do you call the music you play? Country or Psycho Billy? Well, you know, some people call it Psycho Billy. You know, I always thought what I did was get a little hillbilly, you know, little rockabilly thing going. Then I'd start ranting and raving over it. I tried to be David Bowie. That didn't work out. Were you in bands? was get a little hillbilly, you know, little rockabilly thing going. Then I'd start ranting and raving over it.

I tried to be David Bowie. Yeah. That didn't work out. Did you, were you in bands? Oh, I was in bands. I tried to be Mick Jagger and that didn't work out. I should just do

what I do best, which, you know, I'd sit down and I'd get a little hillbilly boogie woogie going. Then I'd start telling a story. Well, actually, I'd start lying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Extemporaneous pontification is what I called it. You got some fucking great songs, man man What were the hits? Elvis is Everywhere Elvis is Everywhere was the biggest hit Stuffing Martha's Muffin about old Martha Quinn She still won't talk to me Don Henley must die

Now didn't something weird happen with Don Henley? Don Henley got on stage In a place smaller than this And sang Don Henley must die withley got on stage in a place smaller than this and sang Don Henley Must Die With Us. And shut me the fuck up. You know, I'm talking all shit, you know, and everything. And he gets up there and belts it out. For once, I shut up.

Oh, fuck. Do you guys still talk? Ah, fuck Don Henley. Fucking the Eagles are nothing but the country monkeys of the 70s. Oh, shit. Who's your guys, though? Who are your guys? I like Elvis.

I like Bruce. Yeah. I like, look, I'm a hate-filled psycho. Yeah. There's a tiny bit of me that believe, Bruce is romantic with a big R, and I want to believe that rock and roll can save my life. Yeah. Because ain't nothing else.

Politics ain't going to save my life. Yeah. Pussy ain't going to save my life. No. Booze and drugs. Apparently, jacking off the Adderall ain't going to save my life. No. But it'll get you through.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A rough spot. But rock and roll will save your life. Rock and roll. And I'm a believer in rock and roll. I'm a believer in the power of music. I moved to England in 1979. My plan was to join the Clash.

I lived in a squat in Brixton. And did they know you were there? No, later, though. Later, I met Joe Strummer through the Pogues. He goes, oh, he says, mate, you weren't the only one. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know.

So I, you know, and my parents wanted me to like to be a lawyer. Yeah. Because I was full of, you know, I was a bullshit artist. Yeah. I want to use my bullshit for good. Not for bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, I wrote a song, Destroy All Lawyers.

It's got a good line in it. They got their own bar where they drink pints of greed. Let's spay and neuter them so they can't breed. You want to do a couple songs? Sure, man. Alright, let's set up a mic. That's good. Mojo Nixon! Woo! Woo!

I was going to do a song called I Got Fired From My Job Today. But I thought of a better title. Wall Street can suck my dick. Wall Street can suck my dick Wall Street can suck my dick Lick my long and hairy prick Wall Street can I'm gonna need some help out there

I don't like banks I don't like brokers I don't like banks. I don't like brokers. I don't like the Federal Reserve. I don't like jokers. Somebody needs to bail me out because I've been fucked over royally. Somebody needs to bail me out. Somebody needs to give me some grease. You know, give me a handjob, a reach around, a little grease.

I mean, you're going to fuck Mojo in your ass. God damn it, man. Let me tell you something. Wall Street can't suck my dick. Wall Street can't suck my dick. Say it. Wall Street can't suck my dick. Say it.

Wall Street can't suck my dick. Say it! Wall Street and suck my dick. Suck it in the morning. Suck it in the evening. Suck it at suppertime. Suck it in the morning. Suck it in the morning Suck it in the evening Suck it at suppertime Suck it in the morning Suck it in the evening Suck it at suppertime Now you might think

Well Mojo's just stalling Because he's making this shit up as he goes along Friends because he's making this shit up as he goes along. Friends, I'm all for occupying Wall Street. I'm all for sticking it to the man. But I'm not sure that camping is going to scare millionaires and billionaires. A bunch of dudes high on mushrooms camping, beating on drums, may not get it done. You know what we need to do? We need to get all them Wall Street bankers and get them lined up in a big-ass line so they can...

Wall Street can't suck my dick. Wall Street can't lick my dick. Wall Street can't suck my dick. Everybody, say... Wall Street can't suck my dick. Everybody, say it. Wall Street can suck my dick. Say it. Wall Street can suck my dick. Say it.

Wall Street can suck my dick. Woo! Wall Street can suck my dick. Ah, yeah! Woo! Go listen to some Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper, if you so desire. It's not everybody's thing. I enjoyed that guy.

Sad he's gone. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Valentine's Day is this week. Maybe you plan on having a night out with a loved one, or maybe it's time to focus on your really close friends. Whatever relationship you're in, they don't have to be easy. In fact, sometimes the best relationships happen when both people put in the work to make them great.

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So he wrote this book, Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions, My 40-something Years in Hollywood. Comes out tomorrow. And here is Ed and myself having a conversation. Ed and myself having a conversation. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance,

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Will I die here? You'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C sees apply. Ed, I'm Mark. Hey, Mark. Nice to meet you. Right away, I've had other directors in here.

Not many. You guys are kind of hard to get because when you do work, it's for months on end. Yeah. And right out of the gate, you seem like a human person, pleasant guy. I like to think of myself in those terms. You exude some warmth. There's not a lot of swagger that I'm sensing. No. There's not a lot of, you have nothing to prove to me.

And that's pleasant because I never know. And your book is very good. And I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass because I don't always read memoirs because I'd rather talk and have it unfold. If I read too much of a memoir, then I'm like, well, in the book. Yeah, right. But I was reading parts of it, and I would have finished it had I not had to watch Glory again. All right. All right. That's a good reason.

Right? Yeah. Because, you know, the chapter, I'm reading the chapter, I'm like, oh, shit, I didn't know. Oh, my God, really? And then you got to watch it again. Right. And I imagine that's going to happen with most of the movies. Well, that's what I'm hoping.

I mean, I haven't watched, like, I am, I've had some shame about it, but not for any real reason, just because I don't know a lot of people that speak as highly of it as I do. I find Legends of the Fall to be, it's like a guilty pleasure of mine. Like, I'll watch it whenever it's on, and I'll go out of my way to watch it every couple years because I love it. But I don't talk to a lot of, you know, hipsters or guys my age. How about that Legends of the Fall? But it's a big movie.

It was a big movie. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It has a place in my heart, too. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, you made it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the thing I like about the book is also that, you know, you're clearly writing it, you know, in relation to how you were mentored. There is a mentoring element to this book. Absolutely. It's the intention. Yeah. There is a mentoring element to this book. Absolutely. It's the intention. Yeah. But you weave the memoir part of it is good because you're not playing a victim in any way.

You're not looking at your past as traumatic necessarily in a way that that's what the book is about. But you fold in the stuff about your dad and about your mom and about stuff. But it's not the thrust of it. It's really, it's, it's a very, um, well-balanced memoir between, you know, work, you know, how you got to where you are and also reflecting on your family. Well, that's sort of the story of what it is to try to be an artist now is to, you know, to somehow reconcile those two demands. And they're often, you know, in opposition. Which two exactly? Work and family.

Sure. Right. Well, I mean, it doesn't seem like anybody who gets a bit of momentum really does that balance quite right. Exactly right. Exactly. There's a couple of points in the book where you're like, I know I got a baby, but I got a...

Yeah. Right? Yep. But the kids turned out okay. They're both okay, actually. They're kind of great. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

Well, that's good. Yeah. It's funny. Sometimes they'll manage. If you love them, even if you don't have the right amount of time with them, they'll manage. You'll be all right. Yeah. I mean, I do credit my wife a little bit with having, you know, really set a certain course.

And it became pretty clear that if we really wanted to have a marriage, that I was going to be around whenever I could. Yeah. And that sort of, that became the rhythm. Yeah. But it was a little bit like the man who goes to sea for six months and then comes home and has to sort of reorient and reintegrate. But different than that, your wife's not worrying that the ship will be lost. That's fair enough. In form of a death, but perhaps a starlet of some kind.

It's a kind of a death. Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, that's the other thing that I've been sort of realizing lately. Because every time I read a book like this and during award seasons, you know, no matter how many things I've accomplished in my life, I realize I'm not really in show business. I mean, I am, but not to the level that you're operating. And the way you characterize movie stars, some of them, and I've talked to a lot of them, and I know a few, kind of, but I'm not too close. You don't want to get too close. But not great.

You seem to compartmentalize it by saying, well, they are of a kind. It's a rare breed, and there are certain things you're going to have to tolerate. Yeah, but you give something to get something. I mean, it's transactional in that regard. I have something that I want to accomplish. Yep. And what do I do in order to accomplish it? And part of that has to do with assuming different roles.

Yeah. And some of it is intimacy, and some of it is authority, and some of it is manipulation, and some of it is genuine fellow feeling. And it really shimmers from one person to the next and sometimes even from one moment to the next. Sure. Now, where did you, you grew up where? Winnetka, Illinois. How far is that from Chicago?

About 12 miles north. So Chicago. Yeah, definitely Chicago. All about Chicago, all about the music scene, all about the theater scene there and all of that. So when you were growing up, when were you born? I think you're like 10 years older than me. 52.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm 63. So you're kind of mid to late boomer. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So you're coming up in prime time. You're catching the tail end of the 60s.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I was in Chicago during the riots downtown. I saw, I sat in the- 68, 67. How old were you? 16. Oh, so you were in it. Sat in the Chicago, sat in the trial, the courtroom for the Chicago 7 trial. You did?

Yeah, I got, yeah, just waited outside to do it, yeah. And what, yeah, how'd you get into there? I had this amazing teacher, actually, who was a kind of revisionist historian, you know, sort of brought us, confronted this group of absolutely, totally ignorant and live teenagers and said, I'm going to show you the world. Right. And he took us downtown and he, you know, it was, it began, I met him as our homeroom advisor in about 1966. African-American guy. African-American guy. Yeah.

And the only African-American teacher in an all-white privileged school. Now, you grew up in a Jewish neighborhood? I did. Well, actually, no, actually, the neighborhood was actually a WASP neighborhood. And we were, you know, a Jewish family in there with others, but it was not that. Okay. So this guy kind of changed, you need one of those, he changed your life and your mind.

He challenged me, and he challenged me in a lot of ways. I mean, probably the most significant way he challenged me was to go out for a wrestling team, which I was utterly unprepared for. I was this, you know, well-behaved, so overly socialized kid. Yeah. And he taught me to get down and to find some thing in myself that I didn't know I necessarily had. Oh, yeah?

And what do you think that was? Well, I remember. I mean, I lost every match because I'd never done it before. And I was going up against these kids who were great. But I remember it was toward the last tournament. And he took me aside. He said, listen, here's the deal. These kids here, they're not afraid of hurting you and you're afraid of hurting them. And I sort of let go in that last match and we drew. And that was kind of a rocky

moment. Yeah. But a victory. Oh, definitely a victory over myself. Yeah. Yeah. You learn to to not be so innately codependent in worrying about other people's feelings. Yeah. And that there's a there's a relevance to that, to going into this business, but also healthy competition. Definitely. Yeah. But when you were younger, I mean, you know, you talk about your dad who's a familiar character to me, the sort of narcissistic Jewish ne'er-do-well. I have one of those as a father. You know, not criminal.

My dad was not criminal, but certainly selfish. Yeah. But it sounds like your dad, you know, teetered on the edge of criminality. I mean, when he died, we found a couple of bank boxes and security sort

of placed here and there with the hundreds in them. At the end of his life, he had a video store, but he sold porn under the table. Oh, yeah. Well, that's not too bad. Well, no, but he didn't report at the IRS either. But was he making hundreds of thousands of dollars? No, no, he was getting by. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But by the time he was able to live of thousands of dollars? No, no, he was getting by. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But by the time you, you know, he was able to live long enough to see your success. He was, he was. But I guess the relationship was not at a place where you could carry him. No, no, no, but no, but it's one of those moments, you know, he, no, I, um, oh God, he went bankrupt when I was in college and that was And that was an issue. And then later, when I went abroad, he needed a car, and I loaned him my car.

And when I came back from France, I found out he'd sold it. But toward the end, I did loan him about $15,000, with which he began this video store. Okay. And then ran out the string for 15 more years, uh, till the end of his life. So it carried him, carried him, did all right. Yeah, he did good. You didn't have to give him any more money. No. Wow. Yeah. That's pretty good. And what about your mom in all this? She was that mom that you want. Were they together? Uh, they were together until about the end of high school. Okay. All right. But she was that mom that you want. Were they together? They were together until about the end of high school. Okay. All right. But she was that person who, when I evidenced any interest in anything, I would then find a book on my dresser the next day.

Oh, yeah. She was invested. She had been the assistant director to a high school play. assistant director to a high school play. She'd gone to, dropped out of college to marry my father and had three kids within a brief period of time. Married a charismatic lunatic? Exactly right. Yeah. But no, I even, I talk about this in the book, which is that when I was about, oh, 14 or 15, I somehow convinced her to take me to the battlefields of the Civil War and tromp up and down because I was interested in those histories. What, to a reenactment? Well, no, not even the reenactments.

Just to like a Vicksburg and stuff? Yeah, Gettysburg. And I just have this image of her with this, you know, ridiculously avid 14 or 15 year old, you know, narrating the stories of these battles as she's just tromping in, you know, 90-degree heat up and down the hills. Yeah. But that's a pretty epitomizing, you know, sort of description of who she was. Sure. And that, it became a through line to, you know, to your first big movie.

Well, and it had all these other kind of weird coincidences, because when I went to college, I would walk through the public garden in Boston, and I saw this monument. I know that monument. Of course. And you walk past it the way you do every monument without looking at it. Yeah. There's sort of this dead history. Yeah. And the first thing you notice is this guy on this horse, and you pay no attention.

And it isn't until you look closer that you then see that the men marching with him are African Americans. So, yeah, it all came together in these odd ways. Robert Lowell wrote a poem about that monument that became about the... Prayer for the Union Dead. Yes. Right? Yep.

Did that one get you? You bet. But early on, though, outside of an interest in the Civil War, what were you doing in terms of show business? No, I was a theater kid. You were a theater kid. I was that theater kid in high school doing all the musicals. Your song and dance, man. Absolutely.

You want me to – I could show you a little bit. Yeah. We all were. But it wasn't actually – I mean, that was going to be my course. Theater. Theater. And I went abroad ostensibly to observe experimental theater companies. I had a fellowship, and I watched Peter Brook at the Bouffes du Nord, and I watched George

Estrela. And I did that for at least three weeks. I was supposed to do it for a year. Yeah. But Paris turns out to be the best place to watch movies in the world. Right. There was the Cinematek.

Yeah. For a, the dollar was really strong. So for a dollar. Was it early 70s now? Yeah. Yeah. Or mid.

And for a dollar, you could go to the Cinematek and see three movies. Yeah. Like six and eight and 10. And it was, you know, it was Fassbender one night

and it was John Ford the next. And there were these little revival houses. And then I got very, very lucky because I, I, I ended up with a gig working as an assistant to a director in France because I spoke a little bit of French and was able to see what that was really all about. And I had been, I'd been, I think inhibited about that. I directed a lot of plays, but I didn't know anything about exposure. And I hadn't, you know, I wasn't that kid. That was set works. I wasn't that kid with the Bolex either.

Sure. So you had no sense of movies. No. I mean, I loved them. Yeah. Adored them. But didn't, felt they were somehow, you know, beyond me. But you did know that, you know, there is from theater to film, there's a connection,

obviously. Yeah, but. Construction. Yeah, but the funny thing is there was this kind of weird hierarchy about those who considered themselves filmmakers. And I somehow hadn't learned that, that thing. Well, you were young. Yeah.

And but there I was on the set and I saw this director. Yeah. It was also a writer. Yeah. Having surrounded himself with really gifted people who could execute what he had in mind. Yeah. And, uh, and as long as he had a vision, as long as he could articulate. You could say the guy's name.

Oh no, it was Woody Allen. Yeah. No. And you were working on Love and Death. Yeah. Love and Death. And it was one of those formative moments because he was very generous. What a, it was a, you fluked into this?

Absolute fluke. Because that's like something you, like there are certain stories that people have where it seemed like you kept sort of, you know, your trajectory is guided by these moments. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's fortunate. But, I mean, still, it's not like you were blessed, but it could have gone either way. Yeah. But, you know, when you got the opportunity, it just was fortuitous.

Well, the thing is, it was an opportunity that was actually about an internal understanding of what the process was. It wasn't like an opportunity that led to a job. Sure. But what it did, and particularly when I saw a very early draft of Annie Hall, which at that time was called. He just showed it to you? Well, I got to know him. So he sort of like, this kid wants to do this.

Yeah. And I was the only one there who spoke English. He was lonely. Okay. Nobody else to talk to. Yeah. But also, I had observed his relationship with Diane Ke lonely. Okay. Nobody else to talk to. Yeah. But, but also I had observed, um, his relationship with Diane Keaton and she was lovely too, but they were no longer together.

And I knew that. And then I see this script that's describing a relationship that has been important and ended. And I, you know, I'm looking at that and I'm looking at them. Yeah. And I realized that here's somebody taking the, you know, the dross of life and turning, spinning it into the gold of art. Right. And that became very important to me later on,

I think, when we did 30-something. Sure. So you were able to make that leap for yourself. Yeah. But what I did, having had this experience, rather than go back to New York, and I've been offered a job in theater, I went, no, I'm going to go to California. And I'm going to reinvent myself the way that everybody always has through history. And I came here not knowing anybody. What year was that?

75 or 6. Wow. And you were like 22? Yeah, 23. Yeah, that's a ballsy move. Can get pretty lonely out here. Pretty bleak. Yeah. And I applied and I got accepted to the American Film Institute, which at that time was a lot easier to get into. Than like UCLA or something? Yeah.

What's the big one? USC. Yeah. So the American Film Institute, but not a slouchy. Oh, no. It, it was fantastic. In fact, it was run by these really gifted people. Yeah. And it was a small conservatory where you arrive there and day two, you're shooting. Yeah, you talk about in the book, it was kind of harrowing.

You took some hits. You're living in a crappy apartment. Yeah. And you're doing the L.A. thing. Yeah. And I was unaccustomed to being that sort of slow kid in the class. Yeah. And I was the least talented among all of them.

Do you think that was it or you just didn't know how to manifest your talent? I think both. Yeah. I don't think I hadn't really, the penny hadn't dropped. I didn't really understand what this technology, what the nomenclature was. I was still very green and very inhibited about myself. I was imitating other people. I felt this critical voice on my shoulder.

None of it came from the inside as it needs to. The critical voice on your shoulder being who? You? No. Me, certainly. My ambition, but Harvard University. You went there? Yeah, I did. Undergrad? Undergrad. What'd you major in?

Literature. Yeah? Yeah. and the idea was to do what uh i don't know i guess i think probably a certain moment and this pertains even to the book i think at a certain moment i wanted to be george orwell uh-huh i wanted to be an essayist or i wanted to write a righteous essayist. You know, and I wrote for some magazines. I worked for the New Republic for a while and I wrote for Rolling Stone.

I thought that was going to be a course. Right. But it wasn't. Huh. And parental expectations? Harvard, big deal. Well, that's a good one. No, when I was graduating

and my father had gone bankrupt, because I was a middle class Jewish kid who felt I had to somehow cover my ass, I applied to the law school. Yeah. And I was accepted. Uh-huh. And decided not to go. Uh-huh. And on the day that I decided not to go, my father basically said that I was ruining my life.

And I said, well, fine, because you've already ruined yours. And we didn't, we didn't speak for about two more years and, uh, came to LA and, you know, as I was here struggling and I did struggle and mooched off my girlfriend and read scripts and anything I could, a lot of these guys who had graduated with me were taking jobs already for white shoe law firms in D.C. and clerking. Merrick Garland was in my class. Yeah. You know, watch that trajectory. Sure.

He took a hit, though. He's doing all right now. He's doing all right now. You in touch with him? Yeah, actually. Really? Yeah. How you doing, Merrick?

Well, you know, there are certain Chinese firewalls about what you can talk about and what you can't. Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, you got to be careful what you text the attorney general. But it is interesting, I think, because the thrust of the book is educational to some degree in terms of pursuing a life in show business. A lot of people started as script readers. Oh, yeah. And it's just this weird, horrible job. Yeah, but, you know, what you do is it's like those little signs when they say no smoking,

there's a cigarette and a red line through a circle saying don't do this. Right. It's a lot of learning by negative example. Right. Or just becoming somehow fluent in the different structures and the expectations of genre or... Oh, in terms of reading. Yeah.

You kind of... The form. Yes. And so you read a lot of bad scripts. Yep. But when does the opportunity start? It was one of those things where I thought it would never start. And what were you doing though?

Were you, were you thinking about leaving, you know, cause I, you know, were you, you know, were you writing things? What were you writing? Yeah. I mean, it's funny, Marshall Herskovitz and I had met in film school and he's your production partner and has been writing partner and all that and more. Best friend probably forever. Yeah. And, you know, we graduated and I eventually got. From AFI. From AFI.

And I got, nobody wanted to see my student film. What was it about? Oh, it was, gee, a father-son story. Isn't that surprising? What happens? Do you kill them? So, anyhow, we started writing a few things together, but I got a job based on the script to that student film. It got to a producer of another television show that was folding.

Which one was that? It was called James at 15. I kind of remember that one. You do? Yeah, it wasn't on that long. It was like an after school special vibe to it. Exactly. He was a guy named Richard Kramer, talented writer, who had been brought out from New York.

He'd written a short story in The New Yorker. Who was the actor in that? I remember that kid. Kerwin? Something Kerwin? Lance Kerwin? Brian Kerwin? Something like that.

Someone Kerwin, yeah. Yeah. In any case, he was good enough to send my script to these producers of another television show. And they liked it. Yeah. And so they asked me to come meet. I did. And, you know.

Were you 25? Even younger, probably 24, 25. 25, yeah. And I wrote something for them, and they liked it, and they invited me to go on the show, to be on, in fact, a story editor on the show. And days were different. There was nobody.

It wasn't a staff. There was this lovely woman named Carol McKeon who was the producer-writer and her husband and me. So they were doing 22 episodes a year. Wow. And I was literally deep into the pool. I mean, I wrote day and night. She rewrote every word I wrote.

There's no writer's room? Nothing, didn't exist. 22 episodes, think about word. There's no writer's room? Nothing. Didn't exist. Huh. 22 episodes. Think about it. The three of you. Three of us.

Yeah. And only two of us really writing. We had writers, freelance writers come in whom we would rewrite. Uh-huh. And she would rewrite every word I wrote. Yeah. But it was an extraordinary kind of discipline, which I didn't have any right before that point. And I learned it in a hurry. Wow. And you wrote on that for how many seasons? Two. And actually the second season, they decided that they were going to go do their own thing and they left. And I was left to produce

the show at 25 years old. So you're making a lot of coin. All of a sudden I went from zero to 60 in about, you know, 3.6 seconds. Yeah. Yeah. And so that changes everything. Now you're a TV writer. I'm a TV writer and my work is terrible. Why do you think that? Because again, I was just imitating. I was doing what they had done. You were churning out what needed to be done. You were doing the job, right? I was doing the job, but I would look at my work when it was done and I was ashamed. It was just not to the level that I had at my work when it was done and I was ashamed. It was just not to the level that I had hoped my work would ever be. Right. Well, that's an artistic intuition or judgment,

but you were servicing the vehicle that you were hired to do. Yeah. Yes. But I had had my head turned by going to a film school where they would talk about, you know, John Ford and Fellini and that I thought I was going to come out of there and I was going to, uh, and by the way, you have to remember the moment. Yeah. This is the moment when, um, Coppola is doing apocalypse now. This is the moment. It's after all those guys broke through middle way through.

And so that's what I'm seeing when I'm going to the movies at night. And instead I'm writing stuff that I wouldn't watch. Yeah. You're writing the, you know, you are a sellout. Yeah, already at 25. Beating yourself up. Uh-huh. Watching Apocalypse Now and Being There.

All of it. I mean, you look at what the movies were in 1979, for instance. Oh, my God. It's all those guys really coming into themselves. Some of them actually passed their creative genius, oddly. But, yeah, but all the guys from the early 70s, you know, really delivering the goods. And there you were writing TV. Exactly.

But, okay, so that's a lot of pressure. You're writing a show called Family. Yeah. And this is what you're up against. This is your dream, that list. Yeah. And you're sitting there in an office. This is your dream, that list. Yeah. And you're sitting there in an office now running the show. Well, and then the show ends.

Was it a popular show? It was critically popular. What network? ABC. Okay. But, you know, what happens is that I have made a classic mistake, which is I took some of the money and I bought a little house. And then I couldn't afford to pay for the mortgage.

And so I had to maybe get another job of that sort and try to find a way. You bought in. I did. I absolutely. Did you have a kid already? No, not yet. Did you have a wife? Not yet.

You bought a house without either of those? Absolutely. And then you were stuck. And then I'm stuck. And so I'm scrambling. And then you were stuck. And then I'm stuck. And so I'm scrambling. Uh, and, and Marshall is scrambling. Uh, we're, we're, we're getting work, but he's in the same predicament. He's writing for seven brides for seven brothers. He's writing for chips and, and we're both, and we're both slowly dying. Um, your film directors. Exactly. And so what do we do? We,

we get together every day and we just whine and moan and you know contemplate our fate yeah and then

one day I have this terrible anxiety dream yeah and the dream is about nuclear proliferation and Marshall

and I are talking and he says well that's a movie and I said what the fuck are you talking about talking and he says, well, that's a movie. And I said, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. And he said, no. And we start talking about how one could do television that wasn't television.

In other words, let me, I was thinking of something like the Battle of Algiers. Yeah. About docudrama. Right. And could we tell a story that somehow was in the same vernacular as watching something happen on television and only seeing what you would see while on television? Mm-hmm. And we go in and we pitch this and we happen to find a seam in the universe.

We go to NBC when they seam in the universe we go to abc nbc yeah when they are in the toilet yeah um they don't know what else to do and the guy who gives us the hires us to write the script is then fired and then the next person to who's supposed to improve it is leaving his job and it slowly works its way through the system until we get a yes, but it's never clear who has given us that yes. That's weird because usually they would have scrapped you. So I guess the guy at the top wasn't fired yet. Well, that was Brandon Tartikoff.

Okay. And the script gets to Brandon Tartikoff. Yeah. And he reads it and he says, well, I have no idea what to do with this, but I like this. What was the pitch? It was just what I just said to you.

You are watching. It's a little vague. Well, no. Think of War of the Worlds. Okay. Think of what that was like when you turned on the radio, and it was as if it was really happening. That was about a Martian invasion. Sure.

This is about nuclear terrorism. Oh, yeah. And they say yes. Brandon is friends at that time with a guy named Don Ohlmeier. Sure. Who's a sports guy. Yep. He had helped sort of create NBC Sports with Rune Arledge.

And he knew about the technology. And the technology was changing. Right. It was about remote cameras. And it was about all sorts of different approaches toward what news should look like. Anyway, we get to make this thing. And a lot of that was figured out in Munich. Absolutely.

Because of that terrorist attack. Precisely right. So we make this and they look at it and they like it. What was it called? It was called Special Bulletin. And so we like it. What was it called? It was called Special Bulletin. And so we make it. And in the penultimate moment when it's supposed to go on the air, the news division of NBC looks at it and says, you can't air this. People are going to be scared.

They're going to be terrified. They're going to freak out. And none of that, but it's going to, in some sense, you know, work against our prestige or our credibility of the news division. And they want him to cancel it. And they want not to air it. you know, rather to better ask for an apology than to ask for permission. Yeah. We send it to, uh,

to Howard Rosenberg and to John O'Connor. These guys were the critics of TV at the time and they love it. Yeah. And they go to bat for it. And so by the time it goes on the air, it's a sort of cause celeb among the business. Yeah. And it then wins every award.

Really? It won. We won Emmys. It was a one-off? It was a one-off. We won all the Emmys for writing and directing. We won the DGA and the WGA and the Peabody. No kidding.

And all of a sudden, the world changed. For you. For me. And for Marshall, too. Right. I get a call, you know, Sidney Pollack, who's just taken over helping advise them at TriStar. Would I like to make movies? Sidney Pollack's the best. He was the best.

He was very important to me. Yeah. Yeah. He was very important to me. Solid guy. Really solid guy. An anxious guy, you know, a complex guy. Seems like it. But really, you know, someone who was a real believer. He'd been a part of the actor's studio. Sure. He'd come up through television the same way. I think he had some sympathy for where my trajectory had been. Great actor, great director.

Great, great both, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so you meet him. He pulls you in. He pulls me in. Both of you? Marshall too?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, in fact. We both write a script together that he just trashes and sydney does he said sydney does i've never been torn apart um more ferociously um uh because we were what was the criticism well i remember something he said to me that became a kind of a of a watch where he said i don't think it started with schmuck, but it could have been. Don't you realize that the,

I was defending the plot and saying it was so cool. And I remember him saying, plot is the meat that the burglars throw to the dogs when they climb over the wall to get the jewels, which are the characters. Nice. Yeah, you have a little list in here. You do a lot of lists throughout the book

about the things that you learned from Sidney. Yeah. Yeah. And you guys were friends for a long time? What did you ultimately end up making with him? Well, I made this movie that was based on David Mamet's Sexual Perversity in Chicago. About last night.

And it was called About Last Night. Yeah, right. And that was for that studio. For TriStar. For TriStar. And then Glory was also for TriStar. Uh-huh. And,

uh, so the sexual perversity in Chicago, the thing that, that interests me about the process of being a director, what you were heading into is that it requires, you know, I don't know whether you, you would frame it that way,

but it requires a certain patience because, you know, shit does not work out. Oh, and things take time. And you seem to have a balance with that stuff. But for someone like me, who's probably undiagnosed ADHD, insanity, I would be screaming and yelling on phones and losing my mind. But it seems like the amount of patience required to let things fall into place if and when they're going to is unbearable. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say patience. I think sometimes it's a lot about gaming something where you're not doing one thing at a time. There would be often two or three

things that I would like horses that I've been trying to get to the gate. And then you're waiting to see how the stars align, literally the stars, sometimes the movie stars. But if you think of a slot machine, and it has to be three cherries. It has to be the money, it has to be the studio, and it has to be the actor. Right, so if you get a few plates in the air, at least you're distracted.

Precisely. And then you get a call and they're like, you know, Julia's ready. And you're on a plane. Right. But then you drop the other thing. Well, or you hope that they somehow are becalmed and they're waiting for you when you come back. So with About Last Night, I mean, what had to fall in place for that?

Let's see. It had been owned by Jonathan Demme, one of these great producers in Chicago, Stuart Okun and Jason Brett. And then Jonathan got distracted by something else or the studio didn't want to make it at the time and it became a free ball. And I read it and met with them. They wanted me to do it. And also I think the fact that when Rob Lowe wanted to do it, who was a sort of kid on the rise that gave it some credibility. And then I was able to make it for very little money at the time. And, uh, and then it did exceedingly well. And that puts you on the map.

Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. But then, like, you know, when you talk about the whole process of pulling glory together, you know, in terms of a pre-existing script, what are you going to do with that script? Yeah. You know, how does that sort of, you know, where do you take that? How do you get the support? I mean, it's a big, a big tale. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how to say it. I mean, the analogy might be being an architect and

you draw plans and never get to build the building. And you do that again and again. I've often asked myself, I would say that there are probably an equal number of those things that I have created. That actually happens to you with Shakespeare in Love. Yep. You built a building. Yep. And then you don't get to live in it. But the, the story with glory though, and all the things that had to be pulled together. And then like, for me, one of the most, um, impactful passages in the book was you figuring out how to do a shot. You couldn't

afford a long shot of that fort and where you drew inspiration from because you, you realized the technique had been applied before by Kurosawa. Was it Kurosawa? Yeah, it was Kurosawa. I probably looked at Ron about 20 times because he didn't have enough money either. For specifically for that fort scene.

Specifically for that attack. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, what he did because he was a genius and he basically reinvented film vernacular with Seven Samurai. He filled the frame.

He figured out that if you had enough money for a certain number of big shots and if you were able to shoot them in one day or two days, you could then go and articulate it in a more micro way. And when you would put those shots of a smaller scale intercut with those bigger shots in our imaginations, we would see it all as being big. Right. And that's, it's, it's, it's just a riff on the trick that Eisenstein did. I mean, it's just, it's just the power of montage applied to a different, to a frame. That's right. Yeah. But the truth is I don't think I could have done Glory

had I not done 40 hours of 30-something and the TV before it, where you learn the meat and potatoes. So in between about last night and Glory, you did 30-something. Yeah, yeah. And that was your creation. With Marshall, yeah. You guys invented it. Yep.

So that was a big show. Yeah. And it was a big sort of like gab fest of yuppie gab fest. Right? Yeah. So like it became sort of, it changed the vernacular of television. It did. I mean, I think the funny thing about that is that it was, you know, a group of people who are related in various ways who are basically just dealing with each other.

And at the time it was revolutionary because in television everybody else was a doctor or a lawyer or a fireman or a policeman. And also half of them were funny. Yes. Trying to be funny. No. And the funny thing now is that's what all of television is, where everyone, it's all contriving different ways for these people to be in relationship to

each other without that franchise. Right. Now, but was that coming off or predating the big chill? Well, that's it. Larry had done the big chill in movies. Right. Now, was that coming off or predating the Big Chill? Well, that's it. Larry had done the Big Chill in movies. Right. And John Sayles had done the trial of the Secaucus 7.

Right. And so that existed. Right. It just hadn't existed in television. But that was the generation. That was when they were still called yuppies. Now somehow they're just boomers. Right.

Now it's a broader swath. Right. I think yuppie was pejorative, and I think boomer tends to be a little bit more you know it's pejorative to the the following generation exactly okay boomer yeah yeah uh well interesting so so that was a lesson in working with actors working in structure working with the budgets that required attention in terms of making something. How to extend a dollar, how to literally spend the smart money rather than stupid money. But then all that stuff in the story about glory, about dealing with stars, dealing with Broderick, Matthew Broderick, dealing with his mother, That the patience of that, like, because I have found lately, you know, that my sense, and I think you have it, you love movie stars.

Yeah, I guess that's true. And, you know, and learning to work with them, obviously, is part of your job. But for me, it's not part of my job. And I am always amazed at a certain amount of natural talent that they have, but also just their presence is somewhat miraculous. It is. It is real. I know. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. But also, I think that they are absolutely every bit as smart as we are. They just don't necessarily have the same language. And I think we mistake that. As we are regular people? Well, or we who approach it from a more intellectual way rather than that very visceral,

very intuitive way. They have stomach brains. They know what they can do and can't do. You diminish them at your own expense, at your own peril in terms of what they can bring because they are- To their job. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's interesting. peril in terms of what they can bring because they are to their job. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

It's interesting. And I know that in the beginning of my career, I was over controlling. I was trying to overdetermine things. And that, that I think was beginning to often limiting what I could then get from someone who's a genuine artist. Well,

I mean, and this was a challenging movie. I don't want to linger on too long. You have a lot of movies, but we'd have to go through everything. But, but with glory, I mean, there's a lot in the balance there, I mean, and this was a challenging movie. I don't want to linger on too long. You have a lot of movies, but we'd have to go through everything. But but with Glory, I mean, there's a lot in the balance there. You know, there's representation of African-Americans. There's the white savior problem.

There's the nation, just the notion that now whether or not you could even direct that movie. But ultimately, I think it's an honest and balanced movie. I think so. In relation to the story and to race. I think, I mean, it has the advantage of being true and documented. Yes. And so, you know, to have denied either part of the movie would have been bolderizing the history.

of the movie would have been bolderizing the history. But you also, you had to learn on set about the community of African Americans that evolved during the shooting. Absolutely. And then you also had to make choices about this kind of imposed

righteousness of Matthew's mom in terms of abolitionists and representing them in too elitist a way would have undermined the effort. And in fact, it was, I mean, I think that there was something that I was seeing that was undeniable. It was just happening in front of me that Denzel and Morgan and Jimmy and Andre, that they were in a kind of rapture. They were, they heard something. They kind of rapture. They heard something.

They were- It's their history. It was their history. And in fact, I initially may have been timid or hesitant to take advantage of that until I thought about my own grandfather and how easily it would have been for me to lapse into that sort of shtetl dialect because it was available to me in the same way this is all available to them it comes down through the generation it's right there yeah and um so what i did and and i'm this is something i'm proud of in the movie which is i resisted these impulses to turn it into that white savior narrative because there were pressures on all sides to do something like that.

Yeah. And I did not. In fact, I did the opposite. It's an amazing story because ultimately the lesson of it has nothing to do with the battle because it was lost. Exactly. I mean, the war was won, but even the battle that was supposed to, they were servicing, knowing they were going to sacrifice themselves. Right. Failed. Yeah. And that's a heavy ending. supposed to, they were servicing, knowing they were going to sacrifice themselves, failed. Yeah.

And that's a heavy ending. But it is the history of the struggle. Exactly. And in fact, I had a great professor in college who was talking about Shakespeare. He said the thing about tragedy is it's the most restful. Is that it conforms to something we understand about life. And that in some sense there was that these men were doomed. And there's something beautiful in their sacrifice.

And also you were able to, there's a nice turn in the book at bringing that teacher of yours from high school. Yeah. That it was important to you. Yeah, it was. And in fact, that was my own, own you know moment for that movie was when then he saw that movie yeah and you didn't know if he had and then you saw him yeah it was a good moment yeah one of those moments yeah better than an oscar yeah i think so sure i mean you know yeah because because he planted the seed right yeah yeah it. It's rare you get any kind of closure in that kind of relationship.

That's true. Where you can say, look, and especially when you have, you know, a fucked up dad, so you're not going to get what you need from him. Oh, you noticed that? Yeah. But you just like, you know, the struggle is to let go of the idea that that dad is going to give you what you need. Right.

And then you have these other people in your life because you find them in order to put yourself together. That's right. And one of them shows up. Who did you have? I had a few. Yeah? Yeah.

I mean, I think that when you have selfish, erratic fathers, you have a series of mentors. It seems like you did as well. You know, whether it's Sidney or this guy or whatever. I had a guy who owned a bookstore for a while and I've had some bad mentors when I was younger as a comic. But they keep coming. Sometimes, I guess I'm old now, but yeah, you rely on them.

Have you been mentorial to other younger ones? You know, sometimes, I guess I'm old now, but yeah, you rely on them or else you have no. Have you been mentorial to other younger ones? I guess so. You know, this show is fairly relevant to a lot of people. Sure. So that happens twice a week. And, you know, I try to give reasonably honest advice, which is, you know, get out of show business. It's a long shot, man.

And if you're not cut out for it, figure it out. Yep. Right? Yep. I mean, what else are you going to say? I mean, even this lovely book you wrote with all these practical advice

to directing movies, I mean, you know, that can all make sense to somebody, but then you got to get in. I mean, you got to get in. Yeah. But to the benefit, is that anybody can put something out. You bet. You know, you, you, you can do that. Yeah. It's sort of, it sort of reverses the old

sort of the, the Marxist dictat, which it used to be that they controlled the means of production. Now the means of production are available, but now it's about the means of distribution. Sure. Well, that's interesting. But eventually, you know, a lot of times they will control the means of production. Yes. Either you're lucky enough to get, you know, to sell it yourself and make your own little world a show business, or the means of production will take your thing. That's true. And do it. Yep.

But yeah, but the other thing is definitely available and it's a, it's a, you can keep pushing, you know? Yeah. But, you know,

throughout the, the career, you know, you talk about the failure of leaving normal, you know, that was a timing thing and, you know, you had other struggles with actresses and what was going to happen.

The other story in here, it is a producing Shakespeare in love, which was, that was crazy. That whole thing was crazy. You were going to direct it, falls apart. There's a battle with Weinstein, the monster. There's all that stuff. That's all in there. Yep. That's all there. And you didn't end up getting to direct it. That must've hurt. After all that work with Stoppard and everything else? Killed me. Killed me. And I looked at, you know, but there's, but it's never a question of if you're going to get knocked down in this business. It's just about when.

But you stay somehow. And what do you do? What do you do? Are you going to get up or not? What's your choice? But over the year, how many, like, from the beginning, from when you took that on, when you got that script

and you convinced Tom Stoppard to fix it, and then, you know, you get going, what I was trying to tell you is I become less tolerant of movie stars the more I read books like yours or the more I hear stories. I heard Vim Vendors the other night talking about Harry Dean Stanton not understanding why there couldn't be a happy ending to Paris, Texas. And I was like, oh my God, was that guy a moron? So, but that's not what they're hired for. They're hired to act, not hired to understand necessarily. Right? Yeah, I guess it's just,

it's not as simple as that. It's not, they are, they're out there, you know. I love them. There's some great movie stars. You're out there, you're in the capsule, they're on a spacewalk untethered with zero G and they're floating in some sense and you're there with a cup of coffee and, you know,

presuming to be safe. I guess so. I understand that but sometimes, like, you know, I had dinner with James Gray last night. Uh-huh.

It's just that there's sometimes, like, you know, not leaving the trailer, this, you know, the fights and stuff. There's some part of me because, you know, when you're not leaving the trailer, this, you know, the fights and stuff. There's some part of me because, you know, I think I'm more probably like a little more codependent and maybe somewhat like you where you're like, what are they doing? It's like, what kind of bullshit is this? Grow the fuck up.

You know, it's a lot of that is fear. And a lot of it, I mean, fear leads people to behave badly. And a lot of that is fear. I guess there's a lot in the balance is a lot to carry a movie. I mean, you talk about making legends of the fall and working with Brad. Yeah. But like, for instance, even I, this is the first time in this book, I've had the privilege of writing things in the mouths and putting them in the mouths of pretty people.

Well lit over there on the stage. Yes. This is the first time I've written in the mouths and putting them in the mouths of pretty people well-lit over there on the stage. Yes. This is the first time I've written in the first person. Sure. And I feel a vulnerability that's utterly different than I might have had when I was sort of protected and guarded. Yeah. They're unguarded. And, in fact, if I get sent to movie jail, which I have been before.

For leaving Norm. Yeah, but I can write my way out of it or I carry it all with me. And an actor is out there in some sense dependent on that thing. They feel that they're going to succeed or fail at this point and may never be able to understand how they got to that point again. Okay, I understand that. I'm not judging. I'm just having a human experience with their behavior. And your experience with their behavior is something you have to sort of be empathetic

with. But also, it's not that that bothers me. It's ingratitude. Yeah. When you encounter that and you see someone taking something for granted that is a privilege, that's the thing that makes me crazy. In an actor or in anybody? Anybody, but particularly in an actor. Yeah.

It's a hell of a balance. And you've worked with the biggest actors. I mean, you know, the story with Brad, who was young. You forget these guys were young. You know, Legends of the Fall, which he did a great job in, but ultimately was not an easy shoot in a lot of ways. Right. But, you know, as, you know, as the arc kind of continues and, you know, after all is said and done, you had a moment with him. Yep. Yep. And, and, and look, we're all really in some sense, Really, in some sense, reactive, passionate, triggered people by very intense situations.

And that sometimes yields behavior that is extreme. And it really depends how you address that. Look, you talked about Sidney, Sidney and Redford. I'm very interested in all these directors and actors who have made multiple movies together because you create a shorthand, but it doesn't mean that it's easy. I've made three movies with Denzel, right? And the relationship will ebb and flow and be, you know, sometimes day to day. What was the third one? It's called The Siege. Oh, so Courage Under Fire? Yeah. And The Siege?

Yeah. Well, that guy's unbelievable. He's the best. There's nobody better that I could point to as a career. But just like, you know, I had Ethan Hawking here once, and I'll never forget it. When he was preparing for training day, he watched Denzel movies like they were game films. So he would be able to hold his own in frame with him. And I've talked to Ethan about this too.

I mean, I think at least a third of what Denzel does in that movie is improvised. It's big, man. He really let it loose. He did. Right? Yeah. Yeah, it's remarkable. And you saw him at the

beginning in glory. Yeah. And it was there then. I mean, there was a guy who, the man who produced the movie was a guy named Freddie Fields, famous scoundrel, legendary agent. And the minute we looked at Denzel on the screen, I remember him sitting in the back of the room saying, Jesus Christ, the kid carries his own lights. Wow. You're in a scene with a group of five other people and he's the only person you could look at. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I'll go, like, I'm not a huge action movie guy, but lately I have been. Yeah, so you'll go see The Equalizers? I do. I'll go see him do that. It's pretty great. Now he's old too and he's still doing it.

Looking at that watch. You know what I mean? But it's still satisfying, right? Yep. And then, like, with Tom Cruise, too, I mean, it took you a while to work with him, right? And you did. Well, I mean, this is important to say. I mean, there's nobody easier to work with than Tom Cruise.

Yeah. I mean, his willingness to jump in. Right. He's not going to be a difficult movie star. Oh, no. Not at all. No. Well, fun to work with?

Yeah. I like that movie, Last Samurai. Yeah. It was fun. It was one of those experiences that you can actually make some bold decisions, you know, directorially and feel a little bit like David Lean for a minute or two. Big. Yeah.

Expansive. Yeah. But it's always glory, but you have more money with a samurai, right? Yeah. So you get more horses. Exactly. Take a little more time with the horses. But DiCaprio too, with Blood Diamond,

you work with that guy. You know, and when you're starting to talk, like, about Tom or about DiCaprio, they are at ease with their professionalism and their position and their ability that it does not become complex. In fact, they were, DiCaprio is a wonderful collaborator and he's there to do the work.

Yeah. And it was a difficult movie. He got hurt. Blood Diamond. He got hurt during it. He hurt his hamstring and didn't let it show. He just was a gamer. And yeah, I think one reason that I got along with Cruz is he'd been a wrestler

too. Come on. True. Yeah. You're able to use your, your, your wrestling bona fides. I think so. Wow. But, uh, you know, all in all with almost any movie, something has to, a lot of things have to cosmically come together for it to work. And there's so many people that are being part of it. Even when you were talking about Legends of the Fall, where the wardrobe budget went crazy because how the hell are you going to know that? But when all these things balance out, you have this collaborative, amazing piece of work. And there's no way, all you can do is set the stage for that to happen. Well, you know, the process is that you have a script and you pray that it raises the hair on your arms, that it feels like a thing itself, right? You then deconstruct it.

Things are broken up into their little discrete parts and they're spread out all over weeks and months and years and you pray that when you put it together yeah that it has the same integrity of like a a car that's dissembled and put together and does it run does it have that same power and speed um that's why you talk about scripts that's why you talk about scripts. That's why you realize that that is the money right there. Yeah. That is the, the, the blueprint and it has to have integrity and it has to be tested and stress tested and all sorts of things. Because at the end of the day, that's what it's going to be.

Yes, it can be elevated, but it either exists or doesn't exist. That is the foundation. Yeah. I mean, you should be able to, you know, kick it and throw it down a flight of stairs and it would still be itself. Right. Right. And, and the process of, of hammering that out, which you do again and again, you know, with these different projects, uh, that, you know, that it's not the most work, but you know, the work that has to go into just getting to the starting point. Yeah. It's crazy.

Yeah, it is crazy. And is it still like that for you? Yeah. Um, you know, the, the difference I think is that, is that the business now, what seems to be, we can talk all about, you know, IP and we can talk about superheroes and all of that. And we know what effect that's had. Right. But the decisions to make a thing that is iconoclastic is more difficult because the decisions are being made by groups. In other words,

I think it's a legacy of Silicon Valley where things are talked about to the team. Things have to be acceptable. That wasn't the old school way? No. You kind of went up the chain of a studio? And usually one person took on the agency and they advocated for that thing and drove it through. Right.

And in each of those things I was able to do, it's because finally one person put their ass on the line. Right. And these days when you're trying to talk about a thing that appeals to everyone, that's business, that's not art. That's commerce. And when things are homogenized,

they tend to be less good. And I think that's one of the differences, why there are any number of economic differences, obviously why there aren't as many of those movies as that list that you've talked about in 1979. But the other reason is that there is not the willingness to allow that singularity of vision to, to rule or to lead.

Right. Because everyone's afraid about taking the hit, losing the money. Exactly. Who's going to get blamed. It's a, it's dispersion. It's like displacing the hit, losing the money. Exactly. Who's going to get blamed? It's like displacing blame seems to be the game on executive level. Yeah, and the protection of your downside. Right.

And also the algorithm. Sure. The algorithm is not your friend. Of course not. It's a fucking nightmare. Exactly. It's making everybody crazy. That's right.

Every different algorithm. Everyone's being algorithmed into a shallowness or insanity. Right. But, but oddly, you know, you look at this year's movies, you know, in, in relation to that list again, there's some pretty singular visions. You know, what happens is you gain a certain amount of, um, currency in a career of capital as a director, and then you choose to spend it and you get that opportunity. That's what Greta has. That's what Chris had with Up and Up. What Bradley's had, deservedly so. If you screw the pooch with it, you're not going to get it the second time. Now,

maybe somebody else will, but that's happened to me too. I mean, there've been moments when I've had that capital, I've been able to spend and enforce that vision upon a more reluctant, you know, financial universe. Well, I mean, it seems like, well, I mean, you could sort of see in the way, you know, the filmography plays out, right? Yep. So the seat courage, you know, you had a really good run, right? Legends, Courage Under Fire, Siege, Last Samurai did well, right? Blood Diamond, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. And then Defiance. Yeah, well, I mean, but there's a pretty good example. It's a good movie. Yeah, but see, that's it. I had this capital. I wanted to make a movie about the Jews. Yeah.

I wanted to make a movie about tough Jews. Yeah. And the answer is, okay, do that. With Daniel Craig. Do it with James Bond. And it did okay, but it didn't set the world on fire. Right.

You know, and so then you take a step back and it's just been this, it is, if you look at anybody's IMDb, any good director's IMDb, it's the same story. Yeah.

Right, no, but then you go from that to Love and Other Drugs, which is an entertaining movie. Oh, yeah. But did it take? Yeah, it did fine.

Did fine. Yeah. Pawn Sacrifice. Yeah. I don't know what that one is. Bobby Fisher. Oh. It's Bobby Fisher and Boris Basky.

I missed that one. That's a good one. That's a good story. It's a good movie. Yeah. But again, didn't get the right distribution. Jack Reacher, though. You're back.

You see? It's up, up, up and down. And then the Great Wall. What happened there? Well. How'd you shoulder that controversy? I walked away. I was in the Gobi Desert, and I was dealing with a company that was lying to me, and I said, thank you very much, goodbye.

And they let them take part of the script, and I let someone else direct it. Okay. All right. So you did. They picked on the wrong hippie. Okay. He got out. He got out. Yeah.

And I didn't see these new ones. Yeah. I didn't see American Assassin. Yeah. I should see it? No. Okay. You didn't direct that one?

No. And I didn't see Trial by Fire. That's an interesting movie. Yeah? Again, it's a movie about capital punishment and it's a interesting movie. Yeah? Again, it's a movie about capital punishment, and it's a strong movie. Okay. And all the ones you produced a lot, too, and I don't think you did. Well, Shakespeare in Love, that story's a tremendous story.

Traffic, amazing. Yeah, that was actually a great, great result. I love that movie. I Am Sam, interesting. Yeah, fun. The commentary on I Am Sam in Tropic Thunder is the best. I have to agree.

That is the best. But yeah, you keep going, man. And I found the book enjoyable and readable, but also because I'm planning, I'm right now in the process, I optioned my buddy's book and we're working on a script.

I'm planning to direct it. So it's actually very helpful to me. Nothing could make me happier that that's been of service. It has been. And it was great talking to you, man. Thanks for coming by. Thanks, Mark.

There you go. Ed Zwick, the book, Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions, is available tomorrow wherever you get books. Hang out for a minute, people, will you? Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

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The other day, I said, what? Jesus. Now that's in my head? I'll never get that out of my head. God, that is filthy. You know, you ruined donuts for me. You ruined them. You ruined them for me, too. I love donuts, and now, never again.

Oh, my God, Krusty. I know. I'm on blintzes now. You've polluted my brain. Blintzes, how are they? They good? Oh, they're great. Oh, Red Fox got another dirty story about that. Oh. Want to hear? Yeah. Yeah. I've got another dirty story about that.

Oh. Want to hear? Yeah. Oh, my God. I didn't even eat that many blintzes. Now I'm sorry for the ones I did eat. Do you want me to ruin any other food for you? Oh, with a Red Fox joke? It's a great diet.

That's episode 994 with Yardley Smith and Krusty the Clown. You can listen to that right now on all podcast platforms. To get every episode of WTF ad-free, sign up for WTF Plus. Just click on the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And before we go, this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Remember, friendships and relationships don't need to be easy to be right. The best ones happen when both people are committed to making them great, and sometimes you need a little help. Therapy can be that, and BetterHelp matches you with a licensed therapist selected just for you.

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