WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1517 - Mae Martin

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

Mae Martin is Canadian, has a background in sketch comedy, spent a lot of time doing standup in England, and is non-binary. And yet, despite a life that couldn’t seem more different than Marc’s, the two of them have a surprising amount in common. Mae and Marc share stories on their struggles with addiction and compare notes on how they work through their vulnerabilities on stage. Also, Marc pays tribute to one of his comedy heroes and inspirations, Richard Lewis. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. You know, it's been a heavy time. It's been a heavy few weeks for me personally,

in terms of dealing with my folks and dealing with my own insanity around where I'm at in my mind, in my body, at my age, in my heart. It's been a rough few weeks. Not as rough as they could be, obviously. I have a broken foot. But not just, you know, life is difficult sometimes for any number of reasons, real or imagined. But yesterday was a difficult day. Richard Lewis passed away. The great comedian, Richard Lewis. And he's been on this show. He was on this show back in 2011.

That was episode 193. It was a long time ago. It was in the first couple of years of the show. I remember it. I remember him coming over. I remember reading, I'm dying up here about the Comedy Store. I was very nervous because Richard Lewis was one of my heroes. Richard Lewis was one of the guys that when I was starting out at some point earlier in my career, I was compared to. Not because I was as good as Richard Lewis, but we sort of treaded in the same territory

of introspection, neurotic observation, darkness. And I never thought I would meet Richard Lewis. I never thought I would spend time with Richard Lewis. And then he was coming over to my house, and it was still early enough in the show where to this day I'm like this. I was experiencing a lot of nervousness. And, man, did we hit it off. And it's interesting because a lot of times,

he's definitely on my list of all-time favorite comedians, but somehow or another, through most of my life, I felt like a kindred spirit. Like I knew he was a comic, but I felt that we were on the same spectrum, whatever that is. Addicts, Jews, neurotic obsessives. I just felt like he was a mentor before I knew him.

Some sort of kindred spirit. And it's interesting because after I talked to him that first time, I was kind of lit up. And I felt like I never know when or how or if it's possible to be friends with somebody, a guest that I talk with on the show, because I always put them at another level than me. A lot of them, some of them are not. But over time, I started hearing from Richard. He would email me mostly about what he was doing, articles about him, things that he was excited about. I didn't think that the emails were specifically to me, but there was something about Richard where there was this

idea that, you know, like, I'm alive. I'm alive. This is what I'm doing. But it became more personal, and I became a little closer to him. I wouldn't say we were close friends, but we were in a sort of cosmic way. and i have a lot of those kind of relationships where you know i talk to somebody and i just know that like he gets it he gets me i get him but it was it got sort of surprising and i think the thing about richard lewis is that his love for lenny bruce and his love for the craft of comedy in an old school way and in a specific way in a stand-up comic way not in a comedian way not in a you know sort of uh entertainer way necessarily but in stand-up comedy his interest and his love uh for stand-up comedy as an art form

and as a way of expressing himself in a very specific form, which was stream of consciousness, which was taking risks. A lot of people may not have seen Richard as he got older, but he was out there. I mean, he was out there in his 60s. He died. He was 76, I believe. It was very public that he was struggling with Parkinson's.

Apparently, he died of a heart attack. But he was out there. I mean, he was out there with his stack of notes riffing. You know, he really sort of is a legacy of a type of comedy that is very specific. It's, it's Lenny comedy. Nobody really does it. Not many people.

I think there's a, you know, at least two or three generations that know the name Lenny Bruce, but don't understand the drive shaft of Lenny Bruce. The, the, the way where you, you,

you get into a groove, you lock onto a riff and, and you just go out there, and you see where it goes. Not everybody does that. Very few people do that. And Richard was, that was the way he did it. That was the template. Obviously, him and Lenny are different in terms of the way they did it, but that was the mode. There's very few people that riff. Doing stand-up and doing crowd work, some people call that riffing.

But going up there with an idea and just opening it up, it's not for everybody. It's a very unique and ballsy way to do comedy. And Richard was out there just engaging in the craft nonstop until he had to slow down. And I always respected that. And I'll be honest with you, you know, when I was younger and I was watching David Letterman, and I talked to Richard about this.

You know, I had the pleasure of doing his short-lived podcast, and I don't mean that as a joke, alive and unwell. And that's ironic now as well. But he asked me to be on it, and we talked in a very sort of candid way about each other and about ourselves. And I was able to tell him to his face on his show, you know, how I felt about him and how he was an inspiration to me before I was a comic. As a young guy, as a kid, as a kid, I would watch him on David Letterman, sit down, and just open up that fucking valve, man, and go, you know, just go. And he had this manic pace.

He was fidgety. He was always moving. You know, his hair always looked good, always dressed in black. And he would just go. And I would watch him talk to Letterman. And I wanted to do that. Like it wasn't, I wanted to do comedy, but I wanted to sit down and go. And that was really the main driver for me, you're asking Conan O'Brien, if I could be that guy for him. And he let me, he let me,

I was a panel guest, you panel guest long before I deserved it, long before anybody knew me. And I was able to sort of honor that thing that Richard did. And as a comic, I always had Richard in mind in terms of what you could do if you choose your speed and you have the fucking balls to just go. And it doesn't happen all the time with me. And I'm sure it didn't with him. Uh, after a certain point you get, you get riffs that stick and you, you know, you repeat

them, you add to them, but that was the style I did. It was Richard style. It was Lenny style, but it wasn't improv-ing like, like a Robin Williams thing. This was Richard style. It was Lenny style. But it wasn't improv-ing like a Robin Williams thing. This was stream of consciousness. It's a type of improv, but it's really a heady thing. And it becomes performance, but it wasn't about characters and jumping around. It was about just riding the lightning of, you know, being on a riff that's working. And Richard was great at it. He was also, you know, a sober friend. I'd done the A-list years and years ago. He was hosting, and I remember he wasn't sober yet,

and I remember it was sort of this known thing that, you know, I want to talk to Richard. But, you know, he was, you know, in the dressing room. He's drinking. He was a different guy. He was a different guy. And I got to just tell you, you know, every time, what a sweetheart. And a supportive guy, despite the fact that he was very self-involved. He was just a very sweet guy. And he made you feel better. And if you related to him, you felt seen.

But our relationship, again, I can't claim him as a close personal friend, but every time I got an email from him, I was just, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that Richard Lewis was sending me an email. He asked me to be on his show and, and, and I did it. And then on my birthday, when I turned 60, um, he texted me all the best buddy. You're an amazing, authentic cat. sober brother artist uncle richard i used to call him uncle richard and he and he took to it he was very kind to uh shoot me an email telling me how much he liked my special and how much it reminded him of of himself at a different time and you, I don't know. It's a rough time, you know. It's a rough time.

I guess always. But I am 60, and I'm seeing more people that I love pass, more people that I respect pass, more people that I'm close to, including my parents, struggling. And it's just life. But still still every time it happens, you know, I, it, it's jarring and surprising because, you know, Richard was really too young. You know, our friend Bob Saget was way too young and these last two guys, you know, Bob, I still can't. And again, I wasn't that close with Bob, but I loved him and we knew each other. I would say we were friends, but not close friends, but his passing

devastated me. And Richard's passing is devastating. You know, I knew he was sick and it was a difficult illness. You know, I hesitate to say it, but it was a gift that he was able to go out quickly like this in light of that illness. But I'm going to miss knowing he's around. I'm going to miss, you know, getting these, you know, kind of erratic dispatches from him. I'm going to miss the fact that, you know, I felt like our friendship in terms of really connecting, uh, was, was a young friendship in a lot of ways. And I, when I, when I did his show, I told him, I said, you know, you can, you can still get out there and, you know, and, and, and be funny even in, in the face of this illness. And I offered to a moderate some shows for him if he just wanted to sit down and kind of riff with me,

but he was not, you know, he just didn't feel comfortable. You know, he had a very hard time accepting, uh, the illness and what it was doing to his body. And it's a hard thing. It's a very hard thing. And it's just, it's profoundly sad. He was really a one-of-a-kind person and a one-of-a-kind performer in a tradition, a very specific tradition of stand-up comedy, of what it meant to be a stand-up comic.

And I differentiate between stand-ups and comedians sometimes. But Richard was a true stand-ups and comedians sometimes. But Richard was a true stand-up. And I loved him. And I'm going to miss him. And I hope he rests in peace. But I feel like that's highly unlikely. So that original show that I did with Richard was episode 193.

We did that in 2011, July 18th to be exact. It was a big day for me. A great conversation with Richard. It's currently behind the paywall, so we took it out and put it up in the regular feed today for people

to enjoy and remember Richard Lewis. If you want to spend time doing that, it's a great conversation. Uh, today on the show, I talked to May Martin, uh,

and they're great. I watched, uh, their Netflix special as well as, the series that they're in feel good. Some of it, uh, may is a Canadian, but spent a lot of time doing comedy in England.

May is also a recurring role on the HBO series, The Flight Attendant. They're a very interesting act, and I didn't know much about them, and I knew that we were always missing each other at Largo. They would do a show, and I'd do the next night, and I'd do the next night and I'd heard about them and I didn't, I didn't really know what they were up to. And I knew they'd been around for a long time, but, you know, I watched May's special and I was like, oh my God, I have to talk to this person. And it turns out, you know, throughout the conversation that, you

know, we had more in common than I anticipated. So that was exciting. It's exciting when you meet somebody and you can't see that there would be necessarily common ground other than we are standups. But it was surprising and it was a great conversation tonight. I'm at the Elysian here in Los Angeles. The next week I'm in Portland, Maine at the state theater on Thursday, March 7th, Medford,

Massachusetts at the Chevalier theater on Friday, March 8th, Providence, Rhode Island at the strand theater on Saturday, March 9th, Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown music hall on Sunday, March 10th.

Later in March, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia at the Buckhead Theater on Friday the 22nd. Boise, Idaho, I'm at the Egyptian Theater on Saturday, March 23rd as part of Comedy Fort at the Tree Fort Music Fest. Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater on Wednesday, April 3rd. Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th. Chicago at the Vic Theater on Friday, April 5th. Minneapolis at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th. Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival.

Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets. It's never easy to change your eating habits, people, and it's even harder to stick with a new plan in the middle of the other things in your busy life. That's why Noom builds plans that are personalized. Noom takes into account your dietary restrictions, medical issues, and other personal needs, and then builds a plan that works for you. I like to see all my progress in one place, which is what makes the Noom app great. You keep your meals logged, keep track of your exercise, count your steps, all of it.

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Okay, look. I really enjoyed this conversation with Mae Martin. I think it's a real talk. They definitely have a way of talking that feels like it's totally put together. But that's just the way of talking because I found out like, oh, we share a lot of issues. So you can watch their specials,

Dope and the most recent one, Sap on Netflix. The series Feel Good, which May co-created, is also on Netflix. You can also hear May co-host of the podcast, Handsome,

and the Audible series, Benefits with Friends. This is me talking to May Martin. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Introducing Uber Teen Accounts. An Uber account for your teen with enhanced safety features. Your teen can request a ride with top-rated drivers. And you can track every trip on the live map in the Uber app. Uber Teen Accounts. Invite your teen to join your Uber account today.

Available in select locations. See app for details. Good to finally meet you. Good to meet, well, okay, we met once, actually. Where? Well, okay, Vancouver. Okay. I was like 20.

Really? Yeah, and I was. I can't remember. Were you dressed differently? Oh, I'm sure. I think... Did you wear glasses? I had tits, first of all. Yeah.

And I was like, yeah, probably very skinny jeans. Oh, really? Yeah, and I was with like Dave Foley. Oh, yeah. And I was doing a show. Is it the Fest? It was a festival, and it was... Was Tig there?

Yes, I met Tig. That was the first time I met Tig, too. I met both of you, and both of you were pretty aloof. I mean, I was like, who was I? She's always aloof, though. Until you get to know her, then you realize that's just the way she is. Yeah, you're like, oh, she doesn't hate me. Yeah, that was the period where, for some reason, we always found ourselves dressed similarly.

Oh, really? Yeah. So we were pleasant, me and Tig, or I was at least? Yeah, you were pleasant enough. I was just in way over my head with... I think I only had like 10 minutes of material at that point, and I was just booked to do a televised show with John Doerr and... Oh, John Doerr.

How's that guy doing? Great, so funny. So you didn't grow up in Canada, or you did? I grew up in Canada, and then when I was like 21, I moved to England for 12, 13 years. But what's the background? Because I watched the special and I watched some of the series because I always knew about you

and we were always at Largo almost like alternatingly. Yeah. And I'm like, well what is she doing? Yeah. So now I'm kind of up to speed but it sounds like you had a pretty good childhood. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was all right. Yeah. I did have a good childhood, I think. Because the story unfolded in the special. I'm like, wow. Well, things got dicey.

Things got dark. Yeah. Yeah. But what part of Canada? I grew up in Toronto. Oh. Yeah. It's a good city, right?

Oh, man. It's the best. It's like a dirtier, cheaper New York. You mean a less dirty? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, what am I? Yeah, of course.

It's more run down, though. There's like a kind of earthiness that New York doesn't have. Sure. For years, I'd go to Canada, and I'd be like, yeah, it seems kind of like America, but there's no fear in the air. Yeah. And it's a little slower. Yeah. And people ride their bikes at night everywhere.

My parents still don't lock their door or anything. Right. And there's no guns. I know. But for years, I was sort of bored by it. But when Trump was in office, I'd go up there and be like, get off the plane. I'd be like, it's not here. Yeah.

Whatever it's down there, it's not here. That tension, that like oppressive tension. With everyone. It infuses everybody. But it never felt that in Canada. And because of that, I applied for a permanent residency. You did? I did.

Yeah. Because I'm panicky. I had a few people try to marry me after the pandemic, like just for the passport. I think they're onto that, though. Aren't the Canadian governments, they make sure it's legit. Yeah. But so you were just in the city? Yeah, I was right in the city.

But my dad's British, and so we would go there a lot. Your dad's British? Yeah, he's super British. So now do you have both passports? I have both passports. So that's why I moved to England in my 20s. Yeah. Because you just could. Because I could. And that's why I moved to England in my 20s. And I, yeah. Because you just could.

Because I could. And everyone else was moving to the States, like other comics. Who'd you start with? In Canada? Yeah. Like who came down here? That I would know. Well, like Nathan Fielder was in Toronto at the same time as me.

He's Canadian? Yeah. Yeah. He was doing sketch and stand up. But no stand up? He did stand up? He did stand up. But yeah. Yeah. He was hilarious. I don't know what's up stand-up? He did stand-up? He did stand-up, but yeah, he was hilarious.

I don't know what's up with that guy. Yeah, you've got to get him on here. I believe we tried. Oh, really? And I think he manages whatever that thing he is pretty well. Yes. I don't get the sense that he wants to go too deep into Nathan Fielder. No, he wants to curate it a bit.

Yeah, totally. Maintain the socially awkward neurotic mystique. Yeah. But what kind of stuff was that guy doing as Sketch? Was it similar to what he does now? Was he ever normally at all? No, never normal, no. But always, he was one of those guys who, like in a smaller circuit like Toronto, one guy starts blowing up and then everyone starts doing what they're doing.

So everyone sort of started becoming Nathan Fielder. Oh, God. Yeah. That's an incredible aspiration. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't think that he would have one of those personalities

that was contagious. Yeah. Well, everybody started getting a little surreal and kind of anti-comedy. But there's great, there's still great comics up there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Sabrina Jalise moved down here. And there's great, there's still great comics up there. But yeah, Sabrina Jalise moved down here. And then yeah, I was like, I'll never go to LA. It's so fake and shallow. And then I

got here and was like, I don't know what that says about me. I love it. What's just a city? I mean, like- It's just a city. It's not at all fit. Yeah. People, the conception is that show business people are just like robots walking around Los Angeles. I know. They have no sense of the sprawling nothingness of this city.

Exactly. And the nature. Yeah. You do have access. Maybe because there's more opportunity, there is less competitiveness. People are actually more genuine because there's more of a sense of there's room for all of us. That's interesting. I think so.

In Toronto, definitely, it can get a little cutthroat. Well, yeah, because there's like one TV network. Yeah. And there's like, you know, a handful of clubs. Right. But it seems I've always thought that if you live and work in Canada, that eventually you'll get your shot. Do you think? Yeah, maybe once.

I don't know. I know. Is that not true? I know people who are so good, like just amazing comics. And they're just, the infrastructure hasn't been there for them to, yeah. They're just doing Brazilian quibs? Yeah, just sort of headlining. But now it's changing because of streamers and stuff.

Like people are, yeah, they're doing more productions there. Oh, really? You mean American productions or CBC stuff? Like they opened a Netflix Canada that they're putting a lot of energy into and Amazon

and things like that. Oh, they're there. Yeah, so they're there. Where are they? Vancouver or Toronto? Toronto, I think. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I like Toronto because I was doing some serious thinking about if I actually... See, I applied for permanent residency, which is sort of like a green card.

Yeah. Which you have to spend two out of every five years up there to get the healthcare and to work. So that's the deal. In a chunk or? No, no. Yeah. But like, but I thought like, even if, even if I don't use it, it's bought me, you know, a few years of peace of mind. Yeah. Yeah. The healthcare thing is huge. Is it all right?

Yeah, it's great. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing. So, all right, so you're growing up in Toronto. It's not rural. It sounded like it was rural where you grew up. No, it's like city. Just city.

Yeah. And what's your dad do? He's a writer, so. Like a successful one? He was a, growing up, he was a food critic. And yeah, so that was sick because we would get to go to restaurants. Yeah.

But it was the 90s, so it was a lot of, like, I feel like sun-dried tomatoes were big and, like, Alfredo sauce, you know? Sure, yeah, yeah, trends. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then. I never liked sun-dried tomatoes. No. I never liked them. Me neither.

Yeah. And then what happened? Then, yeah, I started taking improv classes at Second City when I was like 13. That's what I got obsessed. So were you like notorious for being like the youngest Second City person kind of thing? Yeah, I got all that like all that. Attention? Yeah, which is so seductive at that age and addictive.

What made you do it? Like who were you watching that made you want to do it? Well, that's kind of a, I mean, I loved comedy when I was like 11 and 12. Same, yeah.

But I was watching old guys. Who were you watching? Old guys too. Like my, yeah, my parents are comedy fans. Oh really? I had two,

I had like, my mom was into American, you know, Steve Martin albums. We listened to like the final Steve Martin and Richard Pryor. Yeah. George Carlin.

And she took me to see Seinfeld, I think, on stage when I was young. And George Carlin, she took me to see. And Kids in the Hall. Right. That was massive for me. Yeah, sure. The Canadian, like. Yeah.

And they were like rock stars. Like, everyone was shouting out the punchlines to their sketches. And I was just like, what is happening? And they're like in drag. And this is when is happening? And they're, like, in drag. And this is when you were a kid. Yeah, like, 11 or something. And they were doing live shows. But it was, the series had been on already, right?

Yeah, this is, like, a reunion tour. Okay, okay, yeah. And then my dad was into British comedy and, like, Python. Any of the stand-ups? Less so. Like, all the British comedy I've loved is kind of sketch. Like, French and Saunders and The Young Ones. Yeah, no Stuart Lee?

No, that was sort of after his time. So when I moved to England, I was like, everyone was like, he's the comedian's comedian. When I saw him, I mean, I get it now, but moving to England, having not grown up with him, and then the show I went to see him do, he was just, I think, making fun of another comic for like an hour like that but i didn't know the comic i was like what was it was it the franklin ajay record was he or was it an english

comic or an american english comic it was just like a new material night and he was just ripping into this comic who i didn't know so it all felt very inside and everyone was like yeah but now i understand the genius. Yeah, yeah. I had always heard about him. And then I saw him once in Edinburgh. And I got it. He's got like his own time zone, you know, his own thing, his own pace. Exactly. And it's smart. Very smart.

Yeah. And it's nuanced. I learned something from him, though. Yeah. Because he quit for a while, you know, because he couldn't take it. He couldn't take performing for audiences that were dumb or didn't get him. Oh, really? Yeah. He just, I think he just hit the wall. And he stopped for a while. And then what brought him back was him realizing that it's not on him.

Like if, you know, he found empathy for the people that were in the audience that didn't get it. Because they just made the wrong choice. Right, right. You know what I mean? And I thought, and that helped me look at things. Yeah. Like it didn't make me think they just made the wrong choice. Right, right. You know what I mean? And I thought, and that helped me look at things. Yeah. Like it didn't,

you know, it didn't make me think everyone's a fucking idiot. I've just never had that, maybe I've got too much self-loathing to like be mad at an audience really ever.

It's always going to go back. I'm always like, I'm just not doing my job right. Oh really? Yeah, like, I mean occasionally you're like a, especially if you're touring big clubs and there's like bachelor parties and shit. Yeah.

I would get outraged for sure. Yeah. But in general, I wish I had more of that. I feel like I'm desperately trying to get approval. Oh, yeah. No matter what? Yeah. I don't know.

I know when I'm doing a good job, and I know when an audience is flat. And the last time I did a club run, there was a bachelorette party. Oh, really? And I know now I draw my people, so it's a fluke. Like, I don't know who would—they can go online now and just see who they're going to see. Yeah. So I'm like, why are they here? And I told them, I said, it's not going to be a great night for you.

Because I'm not really the guy. And you still have enough of a night left if you go now you said this before no I said on stage oh this is great yeah and they left they did they did oh nice well to be honest good for them for being like okay yeah I mean it's like if this is your I don't know why they come yeah to comedy clubs I still can't understand why it's some sort of institution that bachelorette parties come. Because I think they just expect us to shit on them. Just to riff with them all night. Yeah. It's a really outdated perception of what comedy is.

It's very bizarre. Yeah. So wait. So you're at Second City and you're just doing sketch? Yeah. I was doing improv and sketch. 13. When I was 13. And then I dropped out of school when I was 15 to do stand-up and do it full-time.

Because really quickly, because there was like, I guess, buzz around being so young, even though I was bad, objectively bad. At improv? At everything. You were a kid. Yeah, I was a kid. I was desperate to do it, though. But then, yeah, so I was doing like four or five nights a week, and I was just really tired in school. Did they have you play the kid all the time?

Well, it was just me and my friends, so I would mainly play adults, mainly play my teachers and things like that. But at Second City when you were taking classes and stuff? Yeah. Yeah, I guess I was often the kid. Yeah. In my school uniform sometimes. Yeah. You had a school uniform? I did.

I went to like a private school till I was like 13 and then. Like a Catholic school? It was an Anglican school. Anglican. Yeah. What's the angle on that? The angle is, you know. How is it different? It's an Anglican Church of England.

Is that what it is? It's Anglican Church of England? Is that what it is? It's pretty mellow. Yeah. All I remember is we had a carpeted gymnasium, which it was like they were so convinced that all the, we wouldn't do any sports. Yeah. That we had a lot of rug burns and stuff. That's crazy.

Yeah. And we had to say good morning to Jesus sort of vaguely. But there was no gilt, no plaid skirts, none of that kind of business. Like tunics. Yeah. It was one of the most unattractive uniforms you could ever imagine.

Was that the intent, do you think? Yes, I think it was. I think it was to totally desexualize like... Everybody. Everybody, yeah. I think children

should be desexualized. Yeah. If possible. Agreed, agreed. Yeah. And it was all girls? It was all girls and I didn't feel like a girl so I I had, like, all through, well, in elementary school it was good, because I was, like, I felt like the only boy in the class, and people were really into it.

Yeah. And I would do, like, Backstreet Boys dances, and people would be like, yeah, this guy's cool. And then puberty hit, and everybody, like, I just felt like an alien. Like, they all had the bright stationery and lip gloss, and, like, it's like they all had the bright stationary and lip gloss. And like, it's like they were born just knowing how to be a girl. Yeah, yeah,

exactly. And I was like, Oh, so when you started to feel that way, you were how old like that? You were just not fitting. Well, I always felt like,

I remember even being like five years old and looking in the mirror and being like, like actively being like, I'm not like fucked up about it. Yeah. So always. Fucked up about it. Yeah. Just being like.

A mild confusion. Yes. Like, like quite an acute, like. Right. I'd be like, yeah. What happened? What is going on? Yeah.

Yeah. And I always had short hair and my parents let me dress however I wanted to dress or whatever. They were pretty progressive? They were about some things, yeah. No religion in the house, really? No, they were like staunch atheists. So they just sent you to the Anglican school because it was a good school? Yeah, I think so.

That kind of thing. What did your mom do? She never really did. She, well, she worked, she sort of ran our lives and then briefly worked. How many siblings? Just me and my brother. Oh. And then they they

had another child who died before right before i was born oh there was a third one so how old did he die at he's two and a half oh my god i know can you imagine no anything worse yeah and then but i have an older brother four years older it was sick yeah he had leukemia oh my god that's so heavy i know sorry no no no, I don't mind. So you kind of, like, there was an awareness of that, I guess, once you got to a certain age. Were there pictures around and stuff? It's weird, you know. I never talk about it because it feels like their tragedy.

Sure. And so I've always felt like, but it definitely was omnipresent, like in the house. Yeah. I mean, there weren't really many pictures i think yeah they were doing what they could to just kind of get by by compartmentalizing and now they talk about them a lot more but i definitely felt i knew that there something mega had happened before and i and i definitely felt like this the weight the weight of it yeah it's like the telltale heart you know? In the house under the floorboards.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. I think about it a lot now. They talk about it now? You know, not much. I think at a certain point you're like... But they've integrated it.

Yes, like they have pictures of him up. Sure. My dad actually wrote a book in his his 40s about where he talked about it yeah um a memoir kind of thing yeah yeah yeah yeah it's so heavy because you know i've talked to people about this kind of thing before and you know people that go on to have other kids there's just this that that weight of grief is always there i know and people are like what you know why why'd you do comedy and i i think I definitely remember one conversation where someone said to me, like, in an offhanded way, like, oh, and you were sent to cheer us up after this terrible tragedy, you know, and it was just, you say something like that in a poetic way. But when you're like four, you're like, all right, that's my job. my job like right let's do this so when you start you know sort of feeling what would you what word would you say awkward yeah sure but you never got any

i guess the gift is that you did not get any resistance from your family yes yeah i think like i i had a core kind of armor from my parents being... Like, my dad used to be an actor in musical theater and stuff, so they always had gay friends and stuff like that. Although, you know, in the 90s, you didn't know any trans people, but I definitely knew that I was all right to be myself. And then, yeah, in my teens, I started... But I was always really attracted to men, so in my teens, I started, but I was always really attracted to men.

So in my teens, I dated men and girls. Yeah. But it took me until my 30s to sort of. Lock in? To lock in, yeah. Yeah, now I'm locked in, man. Yeah. Well, I guess there wasn't like, I mean, all this stuff is, because I'm probably as old as your dad.

How old is he? 66. Oh, no, I'm probably as old as your dad. How old is he? Sixty-six. Oh, no, I'm 60. So this whole spectrum of gender stuff is relatively new to me even. Yeah. I mean, I certainly have – I knew plenty of gay people and plenty, it didn't, it was not a, a category. I know. Like I remember what's that?

Chaz Bono. Like that was like truly in the nineties. I was, that's all I had heard of. Were you like, it's possible? No, I was,

I didn't even know until my thirties. I like that. I was like, uh, so unhappy. I just thought I would, yeah, it was so crazy,

but I think that's how it sort of manifests. It's like unhappiness. But what is the feeling? Like you are alien within yourself? Yeah, it was kind of like, it's like, well, when I was like 31 or 30, I was like, I thought about having top surgery like every day for 15 years. And it kind of didn't occur to me that like everyone didn't think about that. Right, right. I was like, oh, and it was kind of like when, and then I started using they pronouns and just feel, and now I'm on like a low dose of testosterone.

And as soon as I had that surgery, it was like, it was like there'd been been a fan in the room going that I didn't realize. Someone just turned off the fan and it was like, oh my God, my whole life this annoying fan has been on. Yeah, so it's been cool. And what is the effect of the testosterone? It's like, I'm not sure because it's so incremental. But it's like my voice has changed slightly and my weight distribution. It's all just like trying to feel a little bit more like myself. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but it's wild because it does feel like such a new phenomenon, but it's, of course, so ancient. I know you talk about that in the special. I don't know that I've heard it explained like that, that there there is a spectrum of gender that's always existed. Yeah. It just now it's gotten a little more specific. Yeah. I'm still also anytime I'm like talking about it, I'm so afraid I'm going to say the wrong thing and alienate my own community because I don't know. I didn't go to high school. I don't know anything. But being put in a position where I'm talking about it a lot, I have met interesting experts and stuff who I'm learning a lot about science and biology and how there's such a spectrum and everything.

And this whole idea that everything is binary is like a recent colonial idea. Oh, that's interesting. binary yeah is like a recent colonial idea oh that's interesting and that's and that's a uh a scientific study and not a psychological or cultural study i guess it's a mixture it's both and yeah so i always thought like oh yeah gender is sort of cultural and yeah and then of course there's biology and i think that's true but then also if you dig deeper, the more you dig, the more there's really no absolutes. And all across nature, there's variations in, like, biological gender as well. Right. I don't know.

Whatever. Well, no, but that was, yeah, I mean, you don't have to totally educate me. I can go do the reading, I guess. But, no, but the idea that, like, you know, sex, you know, procreative sex is, like, specific in a certain way. Yeah. But that's just a narrow zone of defining sexuality. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I even, I didn't realize, you know, men can lactate and breastfeed. Really? Yeah. Like, seriously, if you had a baby. Do you just have to focus really hard? Literally. You just get the baby on your nipple and you can lactate because your hormones change, your body knows what to do. Oh, because of the baby.

Yes. And so you can lactate almost enough to feed a baby and keep it alive. That's crazy. That's so fucked, right? No, I guess it's kind of interesting. I guess it takes a certain type of dude. Yeah, to be like, you know what? I'm going to breastfeed this baby.

I'll do it. Yeah. I'll do it. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to breastfeed this baby. I'll do it. Yeah.

I'll do it. Yeah. So when, so you drop out of high school, but at that time you're just kind of, you just feel a certain way, but you're just dating whoever. Yeah. I mean, it's never really been a massive part. Like I never, I only have had to talk about and think about identity because of what I do now as an adult and stuff. But in my teens and stuff, I was just.

Just doing comedy? Yeah, just living my life. Yeah. Just doing drugs. Just really. Yeah. I mean, that was surprising to me. Like, you know, when you brought that up in the special, I was like, really?

This is the big thing we have in common. Like, this is, I've always felt a kind of. Yeah. Like, I've been so grateful for the way you talk about addiction. And like, it's, yeah. Because I think we have a similar kind of. Well, it sounds like at least you like the same drugs as me. Yes, insatiably, yeah.

But it was sort of surprising because, you know, the way you talk about your family and outside of whatever struggles you had within yourself around sexuality or gender, it seemed like you had a lot of good support and pretty open-minded parents, which I guess I did too, because I think there's some part of me that wants to blame the upbringing for something. But ultimately, the only thing you can really blame is that there's some sort of legacy. There's a generational something that makes us compulsive, drug addict people. Yeah, there's something that, yeah, creates a dearth or something that when you have the drug, it's assuaged in a way that for other people it's not. Yeah. I guess. Well, then, but I don't know how you are with it, but like, you know, the idea of self-medicating, I get that.

Yeah. But if I'm sort of adverse to get that. Yeah. But if I'm sort of adverse to regular medication. Right. Really? I am. I am. And it's not great because the anxiety levels and the levels of dread and then, you know, finding out, figuring out, you know, manageable things I can be compulsive with that won't destroy my life. Like, I don't know why I'm stubborn about like, I don't want to on a anti-anxiety or antidepressant. I'm trying to get off them. I'm on, I'm on just like a, an antidepressant and it's, yeah, I mean, I went on it, I guess at some point and now I've been on it for so long and I'm curious.

I'm curious. And then the, but they're always like, well, if it's working, don't mess with it. Right. I don't, I guess. Oh no. Yeah. You're kind of like, you know, we want to pull the, uh, the stop out. I'm curious, but then I don't know. You know, go spiraling down. Yeah.

So when did you start using drugs? Sort of as soon as I, I mean, I always, I think even as a kid, I remember being like a, like a hedonist. Like I wanted more of everything. I also was, all my heroes were like drug addicts. Of course. Yeah. I definitely romanticized.

And when I saw people smoking, I'm like, I'm going to do that. Yes. My parents smoked in the house. Oh my God. Yeah. Did you smoke? Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. I still struggle with like, I have one cigarette a day now. I'm on the, I'm on, I just was, I got off nicotine for a month, but now I'm back on the pouches a little bit. Oh. I'm trying to. Oh yeah. I was on lozenges.

Nicotine's been the bane of my existence forever. The most I ever had off it was three years. Oh man. And I felt pretty good, I think. I quit in my twenties, I quit. And then in the pandemic, I started having just one a day. And I know I'm, that can't be a physical addiction. It's like habitual, but I can't seem to stop. You just have one? One cigarette every night. I look forward to one a day. And I know that can't be a physical addiction. It's like habitual, but I can't seem to stop.

You just have one? One cigarette every night. I look forward to it all day. I think Sarah Silverman's the same, but I'm like, I got to stop. What am I doing? Because eventually you'll be like, oh, it's two.

It's two in the afternoon. I'm just realizing I'm lying a bit. It's often two. It's often one at lunch. Yeah. I got to stop. I got to stop. Because it creeps back. It's often, too. It's often one at lunch. Yeah? I got to stop. I got to stop. Because it creeps back.

It's so bad. But yeah, so then when I was 13, I became like a big stoner, pothead. And then, but then I was hanging out with adults. So at Second City at the time, there were... Really? They were just turning the kid on?

Yeah, there was a lot of coke around. And then, but I also, I think I Yeah, there was a lot of coke around. But I also think I might have been the one bringing the coke in, I don't know. As a 14-year-old? Yeah, or 15. I started dating a much older guy, and he got me into it. That guy. That guy. There's always that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that was that. And then I really loved it. The coke? Yes. What about the booze? Never had a problem, really, with booze. Yeah. So that was that. And then I really loved it. The Coke. Yes. What about the booze? Never had a problem, really, with booze. Never balanced a Coke with the booze? Just straight up Coke?

For sure. But I've never, if I'm drunk, I never want to drink the next day kind of thing. No, yeah. No, but like. It's always been stimulants. But you got, didn't you have to like balance it with booze? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

So, all right. So you're 15. You're dating an older guy. Turns you on to blow. You're bringing it to Second City. Yeah. None of my friends were really doing it. And then when he broke up with me, I found Coke elsewhere.

Yeah. And was like, well, still got this. And this is in Canada. This is in Canada. Yeah. Yeah. And was like, well, still got this. And this was in Canada. This was in Canada. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so when does it be?

What kind of jokes are you doing? Are you doing sketch? What are you doing? Around then I was doing, I mean, the most self-indulgent stand-up. All my fun sketch friends were like, you're weird. And then I was doing, I was like smoking cigarettes on stage and trying to be like Mitch Hedberg. And that is so not who I am. And I'm so glad that there weren't smartphones.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I talked to, like, I see these new comics, like putting up everything they do in their first year. And I'm like, what are you doing? I know. That's not going to go away. I know know it's crazy yeah um insane so when do you get your first you know opportunity that you in terms of knowing you're on the right path

i think outside of the attention of being a younger person did you do just for laughs as a kid i didn't do just for laughs but i i definitely it and yeah it was kind of tricky because in my early teens i got like canadian comedy award nominations oh yeah okay so you pop up on tv so you're doing clubs at 15 doing clubs and and tv and stuff yeah and and then went so off the rails and was like kicked out of my house and so so how did that go down i was not good yeah 15 yeah that's when you ran off to england no i i moved in with some old boyfriend and in canada yeah and you just were just doing blow every day no that's when i sort of so like 16 17 i stopped doing blow and i was just doing other the other ones, all the other things.

And then, yeah, I was kind of couch surfing for a while, and then like... Oh, kind of lost? So lost. And then finally, when I started doing comedy again at like 20, after a couple of years just being too messed up to do it, I went to rehab, and then I... At 20? Yeah, 19. Where?

In Toronto. Oh, all right. I put myself there. Like an inpatient? No, 19. Where? In Toronto. Oh, all right. I put myself there. Like an inpatient? No, it was a day program, but I did it for nine months, Monday to Friday. Yeah. But, you know. And did it work?

I think it did in a way. It was harm reduction, so it wasn't abstinence. And I don't think I would have gone if it was a live-in thing, but it felt manageable. And I was so broke and I knew that they would give you one free packet of instant noodles and one packet of oatmeal and that you'd get, and I wanted to reconnect with my parents too. How long were you out of the house? How long did that, how, how, what was the drama in kicking you out of the house? I don't know. I mean, if you ask them, I'm sure they would have a totally their experience

of it must have been very painful and different but mine was that i think they were really angry at being lied to and yeah um i think there was an ultimatum of like you can go to uh work with turtles in south america we'll pay for you to do that. That's abstract. Very abstract and specific. And I was like, oh, but I have a comedy career and I don't want to do that. Where did that come from, the turtles? I don't know. That's awesome.

They must have read about some program for drug addicts that involved working with turtles. I know, and I was like, I don't want to meet these turtles. They heard it on a radio show or something. That seems like a good thing for me. I never expressed any interest in turtles. Yeah.

So it got, it got ugly. Cause like, you know, you don't present now as somebody that would be like some sort of a total fuck up. Well, this is the weird thing is like, I don't think I ever even really raised my voice.

Like I, I was always this person I just was like lying all the time and high all the time but I never I was never mean I think or yeah were you stealing uh yeah yeah yeah I was stealing and being a real asshole but just always being like hello yeah yeah yeah that's even uh that's a little more intense. Yeah. So I think they did Tough Love, which I don't think is the best way. Which just sent you out into the streets to couch surf and do other drugs for how many years? We barely spoke for about two years and then we reconnected and now we're super close. And it feels like we were all just having

like a psychotic episode or something in that time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're a lot closer now. So the rehab, was it AA driven? I guess it wouldn't be. No, it was like a youth harm reduction day program. You know, we would like cook. Self-harm reduction kind of thing?

No, so harm reductions just means like a model that's not abs like forced sort of abstinent like you'd come in in the morning and they'd go what drugs did you do last night and you'd it was the first experience i'd had where i could say and no one would be mad at me yeah and they would really meet you where you were at and be like okay well that's less than you did the night before, so that's good, or why do you think you did that? And having adults be kind of not mad was really good. And the other kids in the program, did you make any long-term friendships or just more drug buddies? I'm in touch with one of them.

I mean, yeah, at first it was just like... Yeah, what do you got? Yeah, at 3 p.m. every day we'd go and yeah, egg each other on. Try to do less than you did yesterday. Exactly. Yeah. We played a lot of poker. Yeah.

Yeah. But they were really, it was very eye opening. I had a lot of shame about like my privilege because these kids had come from really tough backgrounds. Yeah. I was like, what is my problem? Like. I know.

It's weird when you sort of have it and you can't really track it to environmental problems. I mean, even in 12-step meetings, sometimes you're like listening to other people's stories. Yeah. And you're just like, oh, sorry, everyone. But then if you really think, though, like I have that experience, too, when I would go to meetings. Like, you know, whatever your bottom is or however close you got to it, I mean, I think some people are just built for low bottoms. But, I mean, it is relative to how much you compromised who you were for the drugs. Right.

And what danger did you get into. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And not everybody's cut out for the full ride to the bottom. Yeah. But, you know, it's all relative. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And not everybody's cut out for the full ride to the bottom. Yeah. But, you know, it's all relative. Yeah. And you're just lucky if you're not a low-bottom person.

Did you hit a bottom? Yeah. It just got scary. And, you know, I'd gone in and out for years. For years. I mean, the first time I got sober was in 1988. Oh, wow. After I coked myself into psychosis at the comedy store.

Whoa. I was a doorman. I was 22. And I drove back to Albuquerque and I went inpatient for a month. And then I'd stay sober for like a year and a half here, 12 months there. But, you know, I'm going to have, I guess, 25 years this year. Wow. Congrats.

But that's starting in 88. So I was in and out. It took me a long time to get it. But, but by the time I really got it, I had, I had surrendered to a type of self hatred and resignation around never being successful or never manifest,

you know, and I was married and, uh, and to a woman that was not correct. Yeah. And I was hiding the drug addiction. It was like. Yeah.

So it was, yeah, it was a bottom. But I, you know, and there were moments during that because, well, for me, because I was married, I had to go do it on the road. Yeah. So when you're kind of like doing that where you're looking forward to like getting out of town in two weeks, you're really going to hit it pretty hard. Yes. And you're going to be what weirdos and you know there might be guns around and people are going to rob you it's just yeah i feel like when you use drugs that you exponentially uh the possibility of dying somehow yes car gun weird people whatever drugs it's just gross oh the situations you get yourself in and yeah i and

then you have so many bottoms that don't end up being bottoms like the sure because you take a break yeah and then you're like i guess i'm okay that coke induced psychosis thing like i had like a maybe a nine hour kind of auditory hallucination. Have you had that? I would have auditory hallucinations a lot. Yes. But sadly, it always sounded like a crowd of people. I know what you mean. Yes. And you're just kind of like, what are they talking about?

Yeah. And coming out of that nine hours and realizing that it was all not there, because I really thought I had heard all kinds of stuff. Yeah. And then you think, and then, yeah, the next day you're doing it again. Yeah. It's crazy.

Yeah, the losing the mind thing. But also I got very sort of like, you know, kind of paranoid. Like I thought I understood mystical things. Oh, right, yeah. Which is a fucking nightmare. Or like ascribing mystical importance to like coincidences and things.

That's right, right. Yes, yeah. You did that too? Yes, yeah coincidences and things. That's right, right. Yes. You did that too? Yes. That's totally the cocaine psychosis. Yes. It took me a long time to shake that totally. Because once you put those like systems in place, once you ascribe mystical importance to coincidences, I mean, your brain kind of believes it.

I know. importance to coincidences. Yeah. I mean, your brain kind of believes it. I know. And then we're in LA where everybody feels that there's so many hippies around being like, yeah. Yeah. It's all connected.

Well, I was at the comedy store thinking I was part of some like weird, evil, mystical, you know, like it was big too. It was end of the world stuff and it all had to do with Hollywood. And some of it was about, you know, the devil and the comedy. So I had big Oh, wow. So I had big ideas, man. And I was hanging out with Cannison, who was not a great mentor. Right.

So if you're going to start thinking evil shit, he's going to be the guy that's going to feed it. I was dating a much older guy who was convinced that the book The NeverEnding Story was the story of his life. He's the guy you did coke of his life. And like everything. The guy you did coke with? Yes. And I was like totally on board with it. And that something was fucked up was going on with this book. Right.

You guys knew. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. That's the vibe. It took me a long, because I would come back to LA after I kind of,

after I would clean up and then I'd come back and I'd get to the comedy store, and it still had that haunted zone. Yes, yeah. I think for me, getting away from it, I got banned from Second City for two years, and that was helpful. And then, it's what you were saying, though, about just, I mean, your day-to-day life, you weren't happy, so you were looking forward to getting away from it. And it's only pretty recently that I'm really pumped about my home life. Yeah. Well, it's some bigger version of that cigarette at the end of the day.

Yes. It's just a bigger version of it. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. And but yeah, but like it when I finally got sober for real and I came back to L.A., you know, it did take a while for me just to realize, like, this is just a place, dude. Right. You know, like and I always quote this Tom McGuane quote where he says, the mind is not a boomerang. If you throw it too far, it won't come back. Oh, that's a great quote. Right? Yeah. And like I realized like I had to reel it in. I had to decide to shut that shit down. Yeah.

Because I have that mystical thing where like I'll be like, come on. Why did this just happen? Yeah. Yeah. But you can't. There's nothing wrong with it a little bit. Yeah. But like, you know, things happen for a reason or however you want to frame it.

But if you're sort of like, there's a sign. Yeah. And fuck. That's a red flag. And yeah. I do it a little though i do too yeah then i gotta stop it i gotta be like no and i have to be super vigilant about like not glamorize or not i mean all through my 20s i thought suffering was so crucial to the creative process and that even though you know that that's not true it's so hard to get out of that way even though you know that that's not true, it's so hard to get out of that way of thinking.

I never thought I like, like I talk about that a lot, where I never felt like I was encouraging my mental suffering for my art. I did understand that like, yeah, tormented people do creative shit. You know, comics are sad and whatever, the struggle and all that. But, like, I wasn't necessarily aspiring to that. It was just who I am. Right. Do you know what I mean?

Like, I talked to my buddy Sam even last night where I'm like, I have this anxiety and I'm tired of it. And he's like, yeah, but it's sort of what fuels you. And I'm like, yeah, but it's not great. Yeah. And I think that's a myth a little bit because you don't know how productive you'd be without it. Yeah. I wonder. Yeah.

Maybe. I kind of have built a system and I do okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I know that people, you know, seem to do a lot more things than me. Like, I don't even understand how people like, you know, when you just see people that are like, you have 90 different things going on. Yeah.

And they just seem to be showing up for all that. It's like, and then these people that have to, you know, manage their social media presence every day and stuff like. Yeah. And they just seem to be showing up for all that. It's like, and then these people that have to, you know, manage their social media presence every day and stuff like, I spend a lot of time not doing work and I like it, but I'm very busy. Yeah. Like, you know, for me, it's like, if I got to cook something or go to the supermarket or go pick up a thing. That's a full day.

Totally. In between like doing my laundry. Right. Yeah. Feeding myself. Sure. Taking a shower every day. Yeah. It's bedtime. Yeah. Feeding myself. Sure. Taking a shower every day. Yeah.

It's bedtime. Yeah. And getting coffee. Yeah. And then, you know, doing the three emails and then like. Yeah. But that's our job, I guess. Yeah.

Like I do, I say that on stage. I talk about how like, you know, I shop at Whole Foods, but sometimes there's two other supermarkets I go to. And sometimes I'll go to all three in one day. And then I say like, I don't know what you think comics do during the day. Yeah. Yeah. But that's what i'm doing i'm i'm i'm slammed right now because i'm show running a show and it's the first time i've been in an office monday to friday that's in in maybe my since my early 20s and it's uh oh man i i and i'm supposed to be a good leader you know and i'm like staring

at the clock and everyone can feel it. I get exhausted. It's exhausting for some reason. Just to be in an office like right away, like when I had a writer's room, I'm like, I gotta sleep. Yeah. What show are you running?

It's a new show I'm doing for Netflix Canada. It's a thriller about two teenage girls who get sent to like a troubled teen school in the woods. Did you create it? Yeah. Oh, wow. And then it's a sort of cult thriller. Oh, so there you go.

You're kind of exercising demons. Always, yeah. Somehow. I know. I got to move on and stop processing my teens. Well, no, but this at least seems like a fictional landscape because in the show that I watched, what was that called? Feel Good. Feel Good.

Yeah. I mean, that was you being you. Yeah, it was super. Some version. Yeah. Because I could feel it because I did that with Maren where it's almost too personal for people to have distance from. Yeah. Like they watch it and you're like, this isn't made up.

I know. I know. And people feel like they know you and you're like, well, you kind of do, I guess. You kind of do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, but it's a weird way to do a show, but my creativity is like that too. It's very hard for me to imagine some, you know, fictional landscape where I can create. Even coming up with a fictional job for a character I'm going to play, I'm like, I don't really know how to do any other job. Yeah. Yeah. And write it with, you know. Well, I think there's something about people in, but your struggle was actually more specific. But when you are, for one reason or another, trying to just find yourself and hold on to it.

I mean, that's sort of all you can do. Yeah. Right. Because I, you know, with comedy, it was always this journey. It wasn't like, I didn't want to be an entertainer. I felt like I was

pursuing some sort of, you know, truth about myself or about being seen or about having at least boundaries where I could see that, like,

I'm me. Yes. And that... That's such a good way to put it. Right? Like, this is my territory.

I'm going to find myself here. Yeah. And you guys have to sit through it. Yeah put it. Right? Like, this is my territory. I'm going to find myself here. Yeah. And you guys have to sit through it. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, being seen maybe because, yeah, you want to be understood. Right. Yeah.

But for you, the struggle was more physical. I didn't realize, but, yeah, I think it really was. Yeah. And, yeah, I don't know for you, like like I hadn't really acted before and then playing myself. And then after that, I thought, OK, I could now. Yeah. But it definitely was. I didn't understand about acting.

No, you had to. Yeah, I didn't. I'd done a few little things. Yeah. But going into that show that not a lot of people saw, but I did four seasons of it. I knew from other comics doing those things that I wasn't going to be good for maybe the first season. Yeah. All of it.

Yes. And I'm just going to have to suck that up. Oh, it's terrifying. Yeah. But you do learn how to be on a set because there's so many other things other than just showing up and being present for the acting. Yeah. It's just like, you know, you got to be a person that sort of like is able to not deal with the not notice the cameras, you know, just find the focus. And you learn how to do that.

Yeah. And I thought I thought it was just about arranging my face in the emotion. And like I was like, how do I make my I got to make my face look really sad. And then someone was like, just feel sad and your face will naturally do it. I was like, oh, right. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I have to arrange my face.

Oddly, that's a good instinct because Jeff Daniels told me that you have to learn how to work your face because all of film acting is the face. I never thought about it. But when you look at movies, it's almost... It's just face. It is kind of.

Yeah. And sometimes you think, oh man, this is skin deep right now. This scene, I'm not feeling it. This is going to look terrible. And you watch it and you're like, that's the best scene.. I'm not feeling it. This is going to look terrible. And you watch it, and you're like, that's the best scene. And I wasn't feeling anything. Yeah, yeah, I pulled it off.

Pulled him again. Yeah, and I breathe through my mouth, so I'm always nervous my mouth is going to be hanging open. But that's a real style. You notice some actors always have their mouths open. Oh, really? Oh, good. It kind of works. Oh, good.

Okay, I'll lean into it. Yeah, lean into it. Mouth wide open, yeah. Yeah, just gasping for air. Yeah. So wait, so when you moved to England, you were 20? Yeah, 21. 21. And you were headlining already?

I managed to skip over kind of open mics because I already had stuff from Canada. So I wasn't headlining, but... Featuring? Strong feature? Yeah, yeah. And then doing the clubs. And then also there's such a culture of like the Edinburgh Fringe Festival there and more theatrical stuff. I don't know how you did it. Like, you know, I make myself crazy about cultural differences. But it's different.

It's definitely different doing comedy there than it is here. It's so different. And the Fringe thing, like, you know, just sort of, you know, package your comedy into a kind of mushy theme for an hour. Like, a lot of that stuff is a stretch. But I did a couple one-person shows. It is, by the end of the month, you're super tight. I mean, to do an hour every night like that for random Scottish audiences is...

But did you always think thematically? I mean, because you do do bits and you were doing short sets in in britain right like 15 20s yeah yeah and then just stand up but then you kind of sort of was it always autobiographical after a certain point sort of my first couple of hours in edinburgh were just a mishmash of like like sort of musical comedy and bits oh really like really some yeah you do some singing? Oh, man. Now I'm doing like earnest,

like I'm putting out an album this year of the most mediocre emotional songs. Really? Yeah. Do you play guitar or something? I do, yeah, yeah. Okay, all right.

But back then I was doing like changing the lyrics to existing songs. Parodies. The lowest form of comedy. Yeah, of course. But, yeah. Wow.

And then I think watching tons of shows up there, I was like, okay, people have this kind of theatrical arc to their hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, yeah. Kind of put it together that way. Put the guitar away. But you put together your sets with a theme or with at least an arc. The last few hours, yeah.

Yeah, because this one's that way. Yeah, vaguely, yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Well, you know, the trick is the callback i mean if you don't have a theatrical arc if you got a couple callbacks that's it's it serves the same purpose it tricks people into feeling like they've seen something really it's amazing how often it tricks them yeah they're all they're very excited about callbacks um but wait tell me about this, this earnest album that you're.

Well, I only, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm embarrassed by it. And so I don't know how I'm ever going to promote it. I might just put it out and. You have a label or are you just going to do it yourself? Yeah. No, I got a label. It's fucked. And I, yeah, I've always played music and stuff and done, you know, sad Elliot Smith covers and stuff.

And then recently I, I don't know, when I moved to LA, I knew more musicians than comics out here. And so I was, I did an album. Wow. It's, if a musician listens to it, I think they'll be like, this is very mediocre, but I think hopefully people who like me will get that it's like an extension of, you know, yeah.

Well, I think the audience you have, if you don't somehow upset them, is very supportive and will be willing. And they like earnest. Oh, totally. So I think they'll be open to it. It's surprising they tolerate funny. I know. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because you play music at Largo and stuff. Yeah. So I usually do a song in the Largo shows. Oh, you do? Yeah. Like with a musical guest, I'll do like a cover

or something. Like I did. Do you feel embarrassed about it? Of course. Okay, good. I'm glad because I really do, but I love it. Yeah, I mean, it took me a long time to like be comfortable singing in public. Yeah. Like I don't really know how to write songs per se. Yeah.

The band I use at Largo, we just do covers, but it's just for me to work that muscle and feel comfortable about it. Man, I so relate. And it feels like when you started doing stand-up, like, I get so nervous to sing. My voice shakes. I'm like, what is happening? Me too.

But the benefit of having your fans there is sort of like, are you going to try this? Yeah. You know, I don't know if I'm going to get through this song. It's a cop-out, but fuck it. I'm not there to put on a professional music show. I know. And they are so, I mean, Largo is such a joy.

I know, it's great. They're so warm. But I wrote one song after Lynn died, and it was like, okay, and I put it out there on my podcast at the end, and I was pretty proud of it, but I just can't, I don out there on my podcast at the end. And I was pretty proud of it. But I just can't. I don't know if I can handle the criticism.

Like, I know I'm an okay guitar player. And I know I can rock pretty good. And I can play with feeling. But, like, writing songs is a whole other thing. And people are, like, I don't like when people come down on my comedy. I know. I know. And at least with comedy, you have irony.

But when you're saying, this is just how I feel, it's absolutely, it's so terrifying. And I don't want to be criticized because I love it. Right. It's a hobby. That's why I keep it to myself. I know. And now I'm going to ruin that for myself, but. But maybe it'll turn out okay. Yeah, I really, I think more than comedy, I understand that music is so subjective that if someone doesn't like it, I'm like, yeah, because some of my best friends, we listen to totally different music. Sure. So I can at least be like, yeah, all right, yeah. And also there's like, you take it in in a different way.

Yeah. You know, it's kind of a magical thing, music. But it is, I do love it and I've never done it professionally. Yeah. Because I think I just had a fear. Same. And the vulnerability of singing is crazy. Some people can just belt it

out and they don't give a shit. Like even when I was watching your show, the TV show, there's a karaoke scene and I'm like, oh God. Yeah. I can never do karaoke and people just go up there and they don't care how they sound. I know. It was the most scary thing in the world. I want to get over that, but I have the same thing. Like my

voice truly shakes and I do want to push through that that because I used to be like that with comedy. I couldn't, I would, my knees would shake. I know. Yeah. I know. What is it though? Like about, why is it so scary and embarrassing to do, to do music, to sing? Maybe some primal, like. I don't know, man. I think it's still that kind of that weird, like whatever our sense of self is and the vulnerability of it and the fear ofate what I'm presenting. Because all the people I love are silly idiots. So I'm really enjoying doing improv again. I haven't done improv in years and I'm doing that. And it forces you to be clowny and dumb and not as like... I'd like to do more of that.

It's super fun. Yeah, just to be physical. I'm very hung up. Because I know innately i i'm physically funny but when you do physical comedy which in my last couple specials i've i've got at least a couple of bits where i have to kind of um uh choreograph yeah physical comedy yeah and make decisions around beats physically very and and it's um it's always kind of uh interesting it's always kind of interesting it's like a whole other muscle I know I'm pretty in my head

and just standing pretty still or I know you sit down sometimes yeah and so doing improv I think that being more comfortable with myself physically has let me now if I do improv I'm playing like women and old men and little kids

and it's like I couldn't do that before I had surgery. And like, because now I'm like, well, I know who I am. And I know people are seeing me the way. The boobs got in the way. They got in the way. You know, I was like, yeah, I was like, I'm trying so hard just to present how I feel and be seen. You know, why would I undo that by playing an old lady? Right.

But now I'm like, yeah, whatever. Sure. Who gives a shit? Yeah. Because you've arrived in your body. Yeah. When did I'm like, yeah, whatever. Sure. Who gives a shit? Yeah, because you've arrived in your body. Yeah. When did you have that surgery?

Like two years ago. And it was like the best thing in the world? Oh, man. It was so crazy. Yeah. I honestly. But the decision

leading up to it was difficult? Yeah. I thought about it a ton, but then once I made the decision, it was really fast. When did you start being exclusively with women?

I'm not. I never have been. Never. I always, like, when I started doing comedy, that was just the prefix to my name was like lesbian comedian. But A, I didn't feel like a girl. And B, I've always dated men. Yeah. Yeah.

Still. Still? Still, yeah, yeah. I love them. I love the guys. What can I say? So you're with a dude now? No, I'm with a woman now.

Okay. But yeah, yeah. I don't know. I can I say? So you're with a dude now? No, I'm with a woman now. Oh, okay. But yeah, I don't know. I get why people assume that. Well, yeah. I mean, I guess I assumed it because it seemed like there was a shift. Yeah. But it didn't.

They never went away. They never went away. They just come sometimes, the guys? Yeah, they come and go. When I was in England, I dated a guy recently for like six months. Oh, so you're not locked into a serious relationship? I am now, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for like almost a year now.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm obsessed. Oh, really? Yeah, it's the first time I've been fully monogamous in a long, long, long time. You're obsessed, though? I'm obsessed with my girlfriend. Yeah, and she's a five-year-old, and that's changing my life. Yeah.

Yeah, it's sick. Really? And how is that changing my life. Yeah. Yeah, it's sick. Really? And how is that changing your life? I just, I don't know. It's like you access wells of. How old is she, your girlfriend? 41. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Just wells of like patience and compassion that you didn't know really. Yeah. And it keeps you present, man. Yeah. I'm awake at 6.30 and by 8.30 I'm like, compassion that you didn't know really yeah and i'm it keeps you present man like yeah i'm i'm awake at 6 30 and by 8 30 i've like written a song and played a game and pretended to be a spider and i'm like this is great this is life yeah and so now do you find your audience was there ever have

you ever uh like gotten into like uh like have you been criticized ever by the LGBTQ audience about your approach to yourself? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Really? There can be a lot of policing within that community, for sure. I mean, for the most part, it's been amazing. Yeah.

But, like. Over what? Like, I remember doing a pride festival and talking about dating men and being booed by being booed by a large number of lesbians like who are just mad because i wasn't what they wanted me to be that's the thing if you don't represent them yeah and they're specific right i think because there's still not not there's not a ton of representation so that right i think if particularly if i'm like kind of cavalier about like labels and things so that right i think if particularly if i'm like kind of cavalier about like labels and things like that and i think that can be frustrating if you're like

fighting for your life yes i'm fighting so hard for this label and yes and i'm just like yeah whatever then i think that annoys people but you made a decision how to represent yourself your day right yeah? Yeah, yeah. Which feels weird. I get that it's weird. I don't know. Like May feels better. Yeah.

I don't know. None of it really feels. All I know is she feels weird to me. But then again, you know, there's people in my life who say she. Whatever. You're not like excuse me no it it it bumps a lot more before and now now i'm like yeah well yeah i mean you just got to correct people and usually if they're regular people they'll be like oh sorry yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah they're not like what the fuck i know i know and it's not like you're

we're socializing with those people. No, and it's not, yeah. I'd rather just be understood and hang out with someone than have them be massively on edge. Yeah, but it is interesting how people want their version represented. Yeah. And if they assume things about you and then you don't represent what they think you are, the anger is disproportionate. There's no acceptance in that relationship. But that even happens like, yeah, like let's say you're doing a, well, like even with Feel Good, for instance, like I had Netflix being like, you know, and for the record, I love Netflix. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

They are great. But they, you know, being like, okay, this is our gay show. And so let's, we got to represent every type of, you know, we should have an asexual character and make sure we're hitting this group and doing this. And it's like, well. It's always, you don't have to define an asexual character. I know. It's the one not getting laid. You're like, I'm just telling a story about a person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so, yeah. But like they didn't look at, you know, your girlfriend's roommate as asexual, did they? Well, I'm sure they were like, and how does he identify? Or like, I don't know he's just a guy he's that guy

at the beginning of your special yeah yes I love that he's yeah Phil Burgers his name is he's dating

Alia Shawkat he's and Phil's a very strange and special guy yeah yeah it was an interesting way

to open the special you definitely had a concept for Sap yeah and who directed it Abby yeah Abby Jacobson It was an interesting way to open the special. You definitely had a concept for Sap. Yeah. And who directed it? Abby. Abby.

Yeah, Abby Jacobson, yeah. Abby Jacobson directed it. Was that at the Vogue? Where was it? Yeah, at the Vogue Theater, yeah. I knew I knew it. It's a nice big wide stage. You know, you do it twice, and the first audience was just hammered,

and they were heckling, and someone in the front row got up, put their coat on halfway through. I was like, where are you going? She was like, oh, I got to get my bus. I was like, what's happening? I'm filming this. Yeah. But I was. I got to get my bus.

Who directed your special? Stephen Fine Arts did the last one. Oh, amazing. And then Lynn Shelton did the two before that. And then Bobcat directed one. Lance Bangs directed one. I've had a few directors. It's a weird thing, the director.

I guess it is whatever you want that relationship to be. Right. I mean, but you definitely, there was a concept there to do, to have a vibe with all the trees. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it starts at a campfire-ish kind of thing. Yeah. trees yeah yeah i mean it starts at a campfire ish kind of thing yeah i've always had imposter syndrome about this whole job and especially stand up and you know starting 20 years ago

in green rooms and stuff yeah just feeling you know not wanting to be one of the guys and sure so i think i liked the idea of presenting it almost like a kind of storytelling, fireside, warm thing. Like this is not going to be punchline after punchline after punchline. It's more relaxed. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the way to go. I mean, you know, I mean, it feels like if you want to be, you can be punchline efficient. But like, you know, it's nice to leave room for that. That thing I beat myself up again about for having that point of view, which I do as well a lot of times, it's like,

well, are you just not working hard enough? Yeah. Why can't you just make the funny? Yeah. Like, what do you, why do you have to leave that room? I know. Well, hopefully, but you're building to something and you're drawing people in. No, of course. Of course. I think that's true. But no, I definitely, yeah. I still think kind of joke to joke. They're just long, like the jokes, you know, big pieces

are a bunch of jokes and they grow as time goes on because I do most of the writing on stage, right? Yeah, me too. You do too? Yeah. So you're waiting for it.

Yeah. You're waiting for the weird delivery. Yeah. That's the best. Oh, the best. And then the little, when laughs are coming in the setup, that's the best. That's the best, yeah. Or little, when laughs are coming in the setup, that's the best. That's the best, yeah.

Where you're like, yeah. Or how about when you get one of those little gifts on stage where it comes to you and it kills and then you try it again and it's not as good. God damn it. I love working with Abby Jacobson because she's not a stand-up. Yeah. She is an, yeah, we have a similar taste and she was just awesome. Yeah, I liked it. I liked the bookends of the weird story about the guy with the mail.

Yeah, it's a true story about the mailman. Yeah. Who's burying all the mail. What is he, a mentally ill guy? Yeah, must be, right? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't frame it that way, but now that you mention it, he's probably very unwell. But then tell me about, what is it, a parable, an allegory?

What was the last thing? How do you frame that? Yeah, this Buddhist parable. It is a real Buddhist parable? Yeah. Because I just want to know, when you did the punchline, the reveal of the parable, which made a lot of sense to you, but the audience was just sort of still waiting. Yeah, which I kind of like.

But that was a real moment. It was a real moment, to you. But the audience was just sort of still waiting. Yeah, which I kind of like. So that... But that was a real moment. It was a real moment for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because it... I like when that happens. It's pretty self-indulgent, that parable.

But I like it. And like, because I write on stage and I... Yeah, I would, you know, just telling shit from my head. Right. But like, I've had those moments where you're like, this is like, everyone's gonna get this. And then just dead silence. Nothing! Yeah, yeah.

Or you're like, there's not going to be a dry eye in the house. Not a laugh or a tear. Just a little bit of confusion. Good to leave it in as your closer, even though it didn't land, you know? Well, you kind of pulled... So that was real. Did it not land both shows? It never landed, but I did enjoy that.

It maybe landed a little bit more in smaller rooms, but I kind of liked that. I never, I make these decisions, like I, throughout my entire career, I've made horrendous wardrobe decisions. Horrendous. Yeah. Over and over again. For years. What do you mean? Just for your specials and stuff?

Totally. Any TV appearance. I would never have thought that. I think you always look great. Well, that's, that's nice. I appreciate that. But I, I, but like, like on End Times Fun, that vest and that collarless shirt. Yeah.

The fuck was that? I never wore them again. Yeah. Never wore them again. Yeah. And I look at that vest. I'm like, dude. Like, but in, but in the moment, I'm like, thisless shirt. Yeah. The fuck was that? I never wore them again. Yeah. Never wore them again. Yeah. And I look at that vest. I'm like, dude. But in the moment, I'm like, this is great.

Yeah. And I'm like, what the fuck? I did that. I did a half hour special. Yeah. I tried a French tuck with my shirt, like tucking the front in. I've never done that before, after, and it looked so bad and no one told me. Why do we do it?

I know. Like, why on that day? I know. Why go back? But then I'm like, I'm just going to wear my old flannel shirt. Yeah.

And I did that for one of the specials and it looked terrible. Really? It was just this old shitty, you know, L.L. Bean flannel that I wore all the time.

It was too big. It looked like I didn't even prepare a dress for my fucking special. I think people like that, though. I guess. Yeah. But the last one,

I had a wardrobe person make some suggestions and it looked pretty good. Yeah. I didn't love my hair in retrospect. I just do black or white T-shirts now, mainly. I think that's the way to go. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

But I was looking at the trees that you had all the plants, the forest, and it was good. I think anyway you slice it, it's going to age pretty well. In the woods, the stump. I don't know about the stump. I know. It was the first time I'd been involved in a budget and i was like yeah trees and then it was the night of the taping and and i was like oh this looks pretty sick and then then i said to the netflix executive so what do you think i was about to go on stage and she goes yeah it looks great it's so funny it's the second special we've had recently that we taped with a forest on stage

hannah gadsby did the same thing i was like what god damn it she showed me the picture and i was like oh i can't change it now but i was like of course it's hannah gadsby why i'm compared to hannah so much even though i think we have totally different styles yeah and there you were with the with the trees the last time I was at just for laughs, I, there's some comic who I bumped. I was with a friend and I'd never met this guy. He's a comic I like.

And he was like, uh, well, you probably got to go to Hannah Gadsby's party tonight or something like that. I was like, no, but I haven't been invited, but I don't know.

That's a, that's a, yeah. how do you interpret that? I think it's. Do you think that, like, was, is that the same as going, because, you know, saying something like, well, you're one of them, so. Yeah, kind of, yeah. Yeah, I get that. But is he just, maybe he feels, could be he was felt outside of it.

That must be partly where. Yeah, because it couldn't have been. Subconsciously it comes from he was felt outside of it. That must be partly where, even subconsciously, it comes from. Sure, sure. You have a community and a group. Yeah, maybe. I'm just another idiot comic. Yeah. It must be hard to interpret that kind of stuff.

But I'll tell you the story of my Comedy Central Presents. Oh, yeah. I did two of those many years apart. And they let you choose your own background, your own set. Okay. So the first one,

you know, which was like the first Comedy Central Presents, it was the same one that Hedberg did that made him like forever famous. Yeah.

That grouping, it was shot here. The same year? Yeah, yeah. It was the same bunch of tapings. That's amazing. Yeah, but mine

didn't surface. Right. But I decided for some reason that because of the way I felt about myself, I wanted a circus sideshow banner. Oh my God. So flamboyant. Well, it was kind of subtle, but it was that. A circus. Just like freaks. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm like, that's like, metaphorically it makes sense. Yeah. But to anybody. You know, I'm like, that's like, metaphorically it makes sense. But to anybody looking at it, it's sort of like, what's with the circus? So that was one bad decision. The other decision where I did a Comedy Central Presents years later and I was doing a lot of political material was like, you know, I want to feel like I'm, you know, fighting the good fight. Okay.

So I chose for the background to be a picture of a herd of sheep oh my god walking the other way right a bunch of sheep walking away like i'm i'm facing you and they're walking the other way behind me and then i put a fucking stuffed sheep on stage oh my god to represent like you know i'm just a really hammer at home i'm the one that's like you know going the other way you guys are sheep yeah yeah and yeah. And it just, it doesn't read at all. It's just sort of like, why is there a stuffed sheep? And why is his head right in line with a bunch of

sheep asses? Yeah, oh my god, yeah. But man, when I thought of it, I'm like, fuck yeah. This is it, dude. Yeah. Fuck. I don't know, man. I guess... I know, I guess neutral is sort of the way to go. I was leaning heavily into the Canadian thing. I don't know, man. I guess. I know. I guess neutral is sort of the way to go. I was leaning heavily into the Canadian thing.

Yeah. Yeah. The last one, Bleak to Dark, I thought that looked good. Looks really good. I just had a sense of grayness and clouds that I found evocative. And then the guy kind of did that background thing and it kind of all came together. Yeah. And the outfit worked.

Yeah. The hair looked a little old man hippie hair. I'm not really a visually minded person. Like even with my posters or whatever, I can't. Yeah, you've got to just get someone to do it. Yeah. I mean, that's why you've got to, you know, I've made a lot of mistakes with that stuff. Same. And as you get older, you're just sort of like, oh, I like that guy's art.

Yeah. Maybe he'll do a thing for me. Yeah. That's the way you do it. Yeah. Good talking to you, mate. Oh, man, this was so nice. Yeah.

I'm really honored, honestly, to be here. Yeah, thank you. Well, that's nice. I'm glad we did it. Yeah, me too. See? There you go. That was a fine talk.

You can check out May's specials in the series Feel Good on Netflix, as well as their podcast, Handsome, an Audible series, Benefits with Friends. Hang out for a minute, people. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a

cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Folks, you know, one thing I've learned from all the musicians I've talked to is that it's never too late to get into music or to get back into it if you've taken a break. That's why I'm telling you about Musora. Whether you're a newbie or you're picking up an instrument after several years, Musora's got you covered. They offer lessons for guitar, piano, drums, and singing all online with more than 100 expert teachers. It's convenient, affordable, and you get unlimited personal feedback, which is something that's normally missing from online lessons. Right now, you can try it for free for seven days, and after that, it's only $30 a month. So head on over to Musora.com. That's M-U-S-O-R-A dot com and start making some music.

Hey, if you want some classic WTF this week, over on the full Marin, we posted the original edit of my trip to the Creation Museum in Kentucky, as well as my stand-up bit that came from that visit. So you move past Adam and just to the left of Adam, a single white penguin. Doesn't matter that it's not the right climate, it's Eden, don't judge, it's a penguin. And then I realized this was just a mental palate cleanser for what's about to happen. Because he's saying, okay, penguin,

you turn the corner, T-Rex eating a pineapple. And my only thought at that moment was like a pineapple. That doesn't make sense. And I'm like, oh, no, they got me. To sign up for the full Marin so you can get all our weekly bonus episodes, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Next week, we've got three episodes again, actor Ben Mendelsohn on Monday,

then a special episode on Wednesday featuring talks with this year's Oscar nominees. And then comedian Rory Scoville is back on Thursday. Plus, we'll have more Oscar talk over on The Full Marin next Tuesday and Friday. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast. Here's some nice guitar, simple, simple, and it's a song. If you know it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives.

Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. That song is for all the Jersey girls.