WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1526 - Alejandro Escovedo

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

Celebrated singer-songwriter and guitarist Alejandro Escovedo made one of Marc’s favorite albums, the 1992 solo record Gravity. But the raw, intimate poetry of that album came from a real place of grief and anguish in Alejandro’s life. They talk about what led up to that point, including his early bands The Nuns, Rank and File, and True Believers, and the rocky road afterward when Alejandro’s health took a turn for the worse. They also discuss his new album, Echo Dancing, and why he chose to reinterpret his own work. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Register today at sunrisechallenge.ca. That's sunrisechallenge.ca. Hey folks, this spring you can emerge with the online presence you've always wanted. With Squarespace, build a perfect website for yourself and load it up with features. Make and share videos, start email campaigns, create special members only areas, and connect all your social media accounts

WTF pod.com is sponsored by Squarespace So go check it out and see what Squarespace can do then head to squarespace.com slash WTF for a free trial and when you're ready to launch use the offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase Of a website or domain that's squarespace.com slash WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain that's squarespace.com slash WTF Alright, okay. Let's do the show All right, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. I ran off. I ran off this last weekend, did something none of you knew about.

But it was packed nonetheless. I was asked by Larry David to moderate a conversation with him in in Washington DC at the Anthem Theater last weekend, last Friday, and about 3,000 people, I guess. And it was kind of amazing. I will tell you about it, tell you why it was amazing. There will be no evidence of it available anywhere. It was not recorded for any reason. And it made me think about that

kind of stuff too, just about touring, about doing live shows, about the fact that we can make fairly high quality recordings, both video and audio on our phones and stuff, just how much I don't do it and how much of what I do. Even moments that will never come back, will never repeat themselves, just go into the ether and how that was once okay because it was there for the audience, it was there for that night. But now there's this whole other part of your brain that thinks like, man, I should have got that, I could have put that up on something, I could have put that up on the thing and then other people could see it, have context and have that moment.

Is there something still to be said for an experience shared by just the people in the room and the people on the stage? I think so. I think that's where things really happen. But then there's just that argument hanging over you like, why didn't anyone get that on tape? I remember years ago, Lou Reed, it was a recorded concert on video of Lou Reed, Waypost, Velvet Underground, and they recorded the whole concert. I don't remember what it was and what album it was after. It must have been sometime in the 80s.

It was just a Lou Reed concert, and he did the entire show, and Lou got off stage, and he was in the dressing room, and he said, man, I hope somebody recorded that on their cassette player. And I completely understand that. Speaking of Lou Reed and speaking of heavy hearted and brilliant musicians

today on the show, I talked to a guy that a lot of you might not know. The those that do know something. I'll tell you that. Alejandro Escovido is here. And this guy, I've really been trying to kind of talk to this guy for a long time. He's been around a long time. He's an Austin musician.

He's been, he was early on, he was in a rock group, a punk rock group called the Nuns in the Bay Area. And he did some work in New York after that. This is in like the late 70s. And then he was back in Austin. He was in the band Rankin' File, which lasted with him about one record. He started the True Believers with his brother.

But I'll tell you, man, his solo album, his first solo album, Gravity, is one of the best albums ever. There's a beautiful poetic heavy-heartedness to it. It's not quite rock, but he's definitely a rock and roll guy. But there are rockers on there. But there's something so unique and so beautiful about the music and the heavy-heartedness and the poetry of the album Gravity. That really, a week doesn't go by without a rocker. beautiful about the music and the heavy-heartedness and the poetry of the album Gravity that is really I

Does a week doesn't go by? Where I don't think about that album and he's done like 15 20 records He's one of these guys. It just has been been going at it for for a long time and one of the songs on Gravity last to know I songs on Gravity, Last to Know, it inspired me to outline a movie that never got made that I had done with my buddy Jack Bolware. And I still think about it all the time, the sort of the outline of that movie. And it was basically, it was about a band.

But the phrase in the song that always sticks with me, more miles than money, more miles than money, is one of the most beautiful little poetic phrases that I've ever heard and it sticks with me. Now this story, whether you know him or not, is a deeply human story that we kind of go through on the show here today. It's heavy, man. It's a heavy life, it's a heavy story, human story that we kind of go through on the show here today. It's heavy, man.

It's a heavy life. It's a heavy story. And this is a guy that keeps going. And not only does he keep going, he goes forward with his beautiful and unique voice and sense of writing and sense of music. And there's nobody like him. But a lot of people don't know who he is.

But you know what? That's really the same as me. I'm not comparing myself to him creatively because he far does something beyond anything I can imagine doing and I do whatever I do. But there's something about living the life, working your whole life, doing what you do to the audience you have, but knowing in your heart that most people have you do to the audience you have, but knowing in your heart

that most people have no idea who the fuck you are. Even, it was interesting at this Larry David thing that I did the other night, they build it as Larry David with special guests, and I walk out there and I guarantee you, at least 2,000 of those people were expecting someone else, someone more high profile, someone who wasn't me, but I'd say I had about a thousand in there that knew who I was and was happy I

was there. I'm not complaining, but there is something about dedication to your voice, to your art, to a lack of compromise or maybe an inability to compromise and the life that you lead because of that. Now, I've had plenty of opportunities, and I am what I am. I am a, I've begun referring to myself as an artisanal comic, because I craft what I craft for the people that have the acquired taste

or the learned taste or just the connection they have with me. And I think that not unlike Alejandro, who has been churning out beautiful music for decades, people know who he is, he's respected, he has an audience, but it's sort of a thrill for me to introduce you to him if you have never heard of him and to get you on those, yeah, I would just start with those first three records,

Gravity, 13 Years, With These Hands is a great one. It's totally of its own, and it's amazing. But I will warn you again, and not warn you, but give you a heads up that even if you don't know this guy, this is a hell of a story. It's a heavy story, and it was a great conversation. And he's got a new record out called Echo Dancing which is out now. I don't even know how you characterize the music. I mean he's a singer, he's from Texas. He's a Texas guy but you know he's been kind of lumped into Roots Rock, Alt Country, punk at different times. But in essence a rock and roller, a rock and roll guy with a tremendously heavy heart and a beautiful

poetic sensibility. So I'm in Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater this Wednesday, April 3rd, Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th, Chicago at the Vic Theater on Friday, April 5th, Minneapolis at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th, Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater

on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival, Montclair, New Jersey on Thursday, May 2nd at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival. Montclair, New Jersey on Thursday, May 2nd at the Wellmont Center. Glenside, Pennsylvania in the Philadelphia area on Friday, May 3rd at the Keswick Center. Washington, D.C. on Saturday, May 4th at the Warner Theater. Munhall, Pennsylvania outside Pittsburgh on May 9th at the Carnegie Library Music Hall. Cleveland, Ohio on May 10th at Playhouse Square. Detroit, Michigan on May 11th at the Carnegie Library Music Hall, Cleveland, Ohio on May 10th at Playhouse Square,

Detroit, Michigan on May 11th at the Royal Oak Music Theater. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all the dates and links to tickets and there's more dates in the future available there. And those will all be performances done just for you. Done just for you and we can all be there when they dissipate into the ether.

And maybe some of you will walk away with something new in your mind and your heart. I guess that's the nature of a lot of art, probably most of it. If you're not compelled towards content, that's the way it works. Springtime is all about fresh air, people. Fresh starts and a freshly cleaned homes and it's a perfect time to give a fresh look at SimpliSafe Home Security. It's the home security option we've been recommending for eight years. In fact, it was around this time of year when we first installed SimpliSafe, which didn't take up more than an hour

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simply safe comm slash WTF that simply safe comm slash WTF There's no safe like simply safe so Okay Larry David live in in Washington DC. So I get this call weeks ago from Larry, from Larry David, and we don't talk,

we're not pals, you know, he knows who I am, we've met a couple of times. He says he wants me to moderate a conversation with him, to basically do an interview with him in front of a live audience, a large audience in Washington, D.C. And he lays it all out and I say, great. I said, maybe we could record it

and I could release it as a podcast. And he says, yeah, that's what I was gonna pitch you and you came up with it yourself. I'm like, awesome, done deal, let's make it happen. And then a couple of days later, he's like, we can't do the podcast. So no recording it, because I guess they want to do it live for a few times

and not ruin it, I guess. And so I'm like, okay. And then I was kind of, I was a little disappointed because again, that whole idea of just doing something like that, that just goes out into the ether, it doesn't, there's no, there's no, it's not proof,

but there's no witness, there's no technological there's no, it's not proof, but it's not, there's no witness. There's no technological witness, nothing that can be played back, nothing that can be referred to or listened to again. It kind of stuck with me that, you know, it was kind of like, well, what's the point in a way? And then I thought, well, maybe I won't do it. And then I thought, well, but it's Larry, you know,

and Larry, he wants, he asked me to do it. It'd be nice to do it. I love Larry. Let's asked me to do it. It'd be nice to do it. I love Larry. Let's, let's go ahead and do it. So I agreed to do it. And then he's like, do we need to talk? Are we talking before or no? No, I don't think so.

And then as we get closer, he calls me up. He's like, I don't want any Barbara Walters moments. You know, I don't want to, he doesn't want me, you know, he doesn't want any touching moments. He doesn't want any emotion, which makes perfect sense for his character But then I'm like sort of like what are we gonna do? Am I just gonna throw you bits? You know things which is on some level an interviewer's job, but I was a little discouraged You know

And I remember he before he told me that I've been on the phone with Brendan my producer for an hour talking about how we can structure this thing so we can get a lot of the stuff that I like to do with my guests in. And we spent about an hour talking, and then I swear to God, Larry called me right after that, and I go, I was just talking about you for an hour. And he goes, what about? And I go, just figuring out how to get out of this.

He laughed. It was a funny moment. And that was one of the things that made me want to do it. Over the few conversations I've had with Larry, I can get him laughing. But he was concerned about certain things. He didn't want emotional moments. He didn't want this. He didn't want that.

And I'm like, fine, I'll make it work. And then I was anxious now because now it's like a totally different thing from what I do. But then the day before I get a message from him, he says, I called you, I think you're gonna like this call. And I called him, he goes, do whatever the fuck you want. Just do whatever the fuck you want.

I'm sorry, I tried to micromanage it. Just do whatever the fuck you want. I don't give a fuck. And I'm like, all right, man. But anyway, I get to DC and, you know, I'm worried, you know, I'm watching, I'm refreshing my memory on curbs, on Seinfeld's, on, you know, his history and how I'm doing what I do usually to prep, knowing that, you know, I've got to avoid certain areas so he doesn't get caught off guard or in discomfort outside of the discomfort he's used to living with on stage.

And it's a whole different muscle to work. Here whether you like it or not, I can infuse myself into the conversations and really have a back and forth and not, I'm certainly gracious and I'm certainly concerned with the guests, how they're coming off, but it's different, it's intimate and you don't know what's gonna happen, which is the same with anything, but it's just different because I don't have parameters

and I can feel them out and it's a back and forth. I'm as much part of the conversation as my guest is usually. And the live thing, especially one of these things where you really have thousands of diehard Larry David fans coming. And ultimately all he said to me was, I want him to be entertained.

I want it to be funny. I want it to be funny. And I'm like, we can do it. But it's a different way of thinking. Like, you know, it's not about me at all. I almost removed myself from the equation other than to sort of symbiotically engage with him and stay connected to him with little concern for the audience. He can play to the audience, but I just am very acutely sensitive to when he's done, to when something is not an area he wants to go into. And I'll tell you, this is something that came out during the conversation.

We both have this thing where we, you know, the first thing that we think when we have to do something is, I don't want to do it. It doesn't matter what it is. I don't think that's petulant or childish. It's just sort of like, oh God, then I gotta do it. But ultimately, what happened on stage was something pretty amazing. Certainly for me and for him and for the people there, I mean, they were so excited to see Larry.

And we covered a lot of stuff. We covered his old standup stuff and he acted out. There's this myth, this mythic, you know, story about him, just getting on stage and catch a rising star in New York and looking at the audience and just saying like, you know, no, I don't think so, and walking off. And, you know, it's just one of these great pieces of Larry David history that I've heard about my whole life,

about him as a stand-up and how much he didn't like doing it. But when we were in D.C., I asked him about my whole life, about him as a standup and how much he didn't like doing it. But when we were in DC, I asked him about it, he goes, that really happened. And he goes, here, I'll do it. And he gets up and he walks to the stage left and he goes, bring me up. And I go, ladies and gentlemen, he just flew in from Los Angeles,

please, clubs and colleges all over, whatever. Larry David, Larry, and he goes up and he does that. He does it as a standup. And it was pretty spectacular. And there was a couple of things. He was very animated. And we talked about his whole journey as a comic and then into Seinfeld and stuff. Some stuff he's told before, but that's all right.

I mean, that's why you kind of want to hear the old guys tell the stories. I mean, that's what people want. And all in all, and we did some Q&A, but it was just a great night, very entertaining night. He was happy, I was happy. I think the audience loved it.

It wasn't too long, it wasn't too short. It just, and we really kind of worked off each other very well. And as a condition of this, he said he would do the podcast, but after spending time with him and knowing what he likes to talk about, what he doesn't like to talk about on and off stage or camera, I'm not holding my breath. I don't, and I would ask you not to as well. I don't think he's going

to do the podcast just because I don't think he sees any point to talk about certain things in his life and that's sort of what we do here. So I had the best experience I could have in conversation with Larry David live in Washington DC that no one will ever hear unless you were there. And if you were there, I hope you had a good time because I definitely did. There might be more daylight hours these days, but that doesn't mean you suddenly have more time.

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get it wherever you get your music. I would start with that first album, Gravity. Hear me out, listen to me. Anyway, it was a real pleasure and an honor for me to talk to Alejandro Escovedo and here we go. You're invited to an immersive listening party led by Rishikesh Herway, the visionary behind the groundbreaking Song Exploder podcast and Netflix series. This unmissable evening features Herway and Toronto Symphony Orchestra music director

Gustavo Gimeno in conversation. Together they dissect the mesmerizing layers of Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, followed by a complete soul-stirring rendition of the famously unnerving piece. Symphony Exploder, April 5th at Roy Thompson Hall. For tickets, visit TSO.ca. On April 5th, You must be very careful, Margaret. It's the girl. witness the birth

Bad things will start to happen. Evil things of evil. It's Hall. You know, don't. The first omen, I believe the girl is to be the mother. Mother of what? It's all for you. No, no, don't. The First Omen. I believe the girl is to be the mother. Mother of what?

Is the most terrifying. 666. It's the mark of the devil. Hey! Movie of the year. It's not real. It's not real. What's going on?

Who said that? The First Omen. Only theaters are full-fledged. So, let's talk about that new record first. All right. Because I'm curious about it. You know, I listened to it and there's a lot of great songs from the old days. Now, when you do, cause like I noticed sometimes when guys become older, as I am as well,

that there is this desire to reinterpret the songs that still have resonance for whatever reason, but they become more haunted, right? When you were doing this one, which is a echo dancing, what was the idea? Well, initially I went to Italy to record this record. I recorded it in Italy. As we were getting on the plane,

my idea was that I was going to create an album totally improvised. Oh, okay. So I just had sketches of lyrics and sketches of chords and melodies and blah, blah, blah. But then, so I started listening to older stuff to kind of get inspired, you know? And I came across this version of Wave, which is on Man of the Influence, you know? Yeah, yeah. And it was done by Calexico. They had done it for a tribute record when I was ill with Hep C.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love the way they did that version, man. Yeah. It was just beautiful. And so I thought, you know, this is really cool. What about this and this? So I started checking out different versions of my songs by other people. Oh, really?

Yeah. And I thought, you know, I can really get into this, you know, be fun. So fortunately, the people that I work with, Antonio Gramantieri, who's known as Don Antonio, and Nicola Peruc, who's a wonderful keyboardist, brilliant musician, both of them. And we recorded in this beautiful studio in Italy, outside of Modigliana.

Wow. And it's on a hilltop overlooking vineyards and olive orchards. Sure, yeah. And it's an old stone mill that was built in the 15th century, you know. So, but how do you. But how did that happen? How do you decide to do that?

So when I got there, well, I knew that initially I only wanted to make the record with those two guys. So it was them. So you were fans of theirs, you're going to go to Italy to do a record. Well, we've actually made a record before. Which one? The crossing. The cross. Okay, so you knew them.

Yeah, I knew them. Yeah. Did you record that in Italy? Yes, okay, so you knew them. Yeah, I knew them very well. Yeah, and did you record that in Italy? Yes, I did. Okay. Yeah. It's interesting how that, it's about the environment. There's something about, you know, especially the crossing, which had kind of a, not political, but kind of social bent to it.

Sure. It's a story about two young boys, one from Italy, one from Mexico. They meet in Galveston, Texas, where they're working in a kitchen. They begin to talk about all the things they love about America, which is American punk rock music, the beat poets, and Sam Peckinpah. Right. So they go... The important things.

Yes. The essential American things, right? Yeah, yeah. And they go looking for this America. And at that time, of course, Trump was running, and the world was a different place. On fire, dude. Yeah. So that was the gist of that album.

And it was a beautiful album to make. And when I got to Italy, I had no lyrics. I knew the story in my head, but I didn't have any song lyrics at all. And I just wrote them all in Italy. Wow. So did you do two versions of The Crossing? Yes, there was a Spanish version.

La Crusada. Yeah. And how did that land? I mean, do you know if people picked that up? I always felt like that story needed to be told in Spanish. Sure. You know? Yeah.

And I got my friend Alex Ruiz, cause my Spanish is pretty horrible. Yeah. And he sang it for me, you know, we sang together and on some of the songs we had Patricia Vaughn come in and sing and some other people. And it was beautiful. I love it.

I love it. Well, so the Italy thing, though, I mean, that's a, because I know a lot of people record certain places because of certain magic. But usually it's around here. Yeah, Muscle Shoals or something like that. Right, yeah, that guy's stuff. But you found this place that has Italian magic.

It does. And especially in riding the crossing, I think it was important that I wasn't here in America. Well, yeah, you would have gotten toxic. Yeah, it gave me a great perspective on everything. Oh, yeah? And also because the Italian boys that I knew there, I call them boys, they're young men, But they had made a journey from Modaliana,

which is this little village really in Romania. Full of musicians, it's like the Austin, what Austin used to be like. But anyway, they made a journey, a trek pilgrimage to Austin to meet Jimmy Vaughn. Jimmy! That was their favorite guitar player and artist. He's a good one.

He's great. Oh yeah, I'm a big Jimmy Vaughn guy and I got to play with him with the Vovino in New York one. Oh you did? Cool. It was kind of a big deal. Yeah, sure. I mean like, because you know everyone talks about his brother, but I'm a big Jimmy guy. I love Jimmy's playing, man. The best, man.

I just did a show with Jimmy, actually. Where at the Continental or? No, it was at the Bullock Museum. It was at Bruce Springsteen exhibit that's traveling around the country. Ah. And so Jimmy's band backed me up. Lyle Lovett did it and I did it.

Was Bruce there? No, Bruce wasn't there. You met him though. Oh yeah. You played with him, haven't you? Yeah, yeah. Do you have the same manager still? No, we did.

Landau. Yeah. Well, it's been a long road, huh? It has. A lot of stories. But I mean, because when I like, Last to Know is like one of my favorite songs of all time. I We I sort of outlined a screenplay based on

On on on last to know in a way interesting. Well, it was this idea about a you know, a guy who Was in a band that had like one hit in the in the 80s and he was you know I had some other job and I think the idea was he was like delivering, it doesn't really matter. What had happened was they all found out the band, which had all separated, had found out that their lead singer who was out of his mind and, you know, lived longer than they thought he would had died.

Oh no. Yeah, and they all kind of reunited at this funeral with all the interesting tensions. Yeah. You know, and they didn't know what to do with the body, so two of them, you know, were gonna, you know, they were gonna get cremated and take them out to Joshua Tree. Oh, wow. But when they got there, there was another band

emptying ashes, so they thought... Ha ha ha ha ha! That's great. I love that. That's cool. You should do it, man. I don't know. It's a long lost thing, but there were some funny beats in it, you know, just kind of going through,

you know, the life of a band in retrospect and stopping in, you know, these towns where there was one groupie there who's now an older lady and, you know, still kind of... It was sweet. Maybe I should do it. You know, that's kind of the... I wrote that with Buick McCain. And Buick McCain was more of a party than a band really.

Oh yeah. Yeah, we were just fuck-ups with guitars. Right. You know? And we used to play in Oxford, Mississippi, was one of the few gigs that we could get, right outside of Austin. Yeah.

So we were in Oxford, and the guy Ches, was a promoter. He paid us in a case of vodka and a case of cranberry juice because Cape Cod's were our favorite drink, right? Yeah. So we were on our way home. Somewhere outside of Oxford, we were about two Cape Cods outside of Oxford, let's say, and the drive shaft fell off the van.

Oh, yeah. And the drummer gets out and says, throw me the duct tape. And he duct taped the drive shaft back to the van. Back on the van, we made it like another mile maybe. Yeah. And then just sat there laughing and drinking Cape Cods until someone came to rest.

But I wrote that song while we were just hanging out there. Well, the line, more miles than money, is like that was the whole window into the idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that becomes a real thing as you get older, no matter what you do, you start to realize, how do you judge what you've done?

Yeah. Yeah. Do you find yourself in that zone? Or you don't think that way? You know, it's funny now, I don't think that way because I'm still real active. I'm still performing a lot. Sure, yeah.

Touring a lot, making records. So I really haven't had the chance to sit back and just take it all in. Yeah, I don't know if it's like, it's not nostalgic, but there's that song on, which record is it? Burn Something Beautiful. Yeah, I don't wanna play my guitar anymore. That feeling, where you feel, cause I'm 60,

and that feeling of like, have I said everything I need to say? And it's kind of a weird place to be. It's not terrible. It is. Pete Buck came up with that line and those lyrics, you know, that song. Oh, you did?

Yeah. Yeah, we wrote that album, Scott McCoy and Peter Buck. That makes sense, because I was listening to stuff again. And I love that record. Yeah, that's a good record. Because of that fucking guitar. It's just like, grrrr. And that's Kurt Block, who was in a band called The Fastbacks. Oh, yeah. They were a punk band out of Seattle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. guitar. It's just like grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr of going over the whole thing, you know, and that album, Gravity has always held a big

place in my mind and my heart. And for some how or another, I don't know who or what labels you've been at over the years, but I always seem to get the records, you know, here and there, your records, they come, CDs, I don't know who sends them, but they've always been coming. That's wonderful. Yeah, and I've been kind of talking about you for years, but when you do a song like Sacramento and Polk, like that song, does that go back to your San Francisco days? It does. When I first got to San Francisco...

Where'd you grow up? Well, I was born in San Antonio. All right. But my parents took us... It's a funny story. My parents told us we were going on a vacation to California. How many kids is this? This is five kids at the time. And you're the middle?

But there's 12 kids. There's 12 kids? Yeah. So there's a lot of kids. How old's the oldest sibling? You know, he's in his 90s. And he's still around? But he's in hospice right now.

Oh, okay. Well, that's a good run. Yeah, yeah, it's a good run. Yeah, yeah, it's an excellent run. He was a great, wonderful man. So my parents told us, what was happening was my dad drank a lot, right? So he'd be gone for periods of time. My mother got sick of it.

She hired a man to drive us to California to get away from him. Oh wow. My dad got wind of it. He comes and says, no man has taken my family to California but me, right? Right. He tells us to pack lightly and we're going to California to go on vacation, you know, visit his cousin in Orange, California.

Sure. So we all get in the car, you know, and we drove and it was a wonderful trip. We're all excited. We're young. I was about seven years old. Yeah. Gonna go see Disneyland, all that stuff.

California. We got to California. We spent quite a bit of time in my dad's cousin's home in Orange. One day he shook hands with a man, and suddenly we own this old railroad shack of a house in Orange, California. We never went back to Texas.

That was it. That was it. I never went back until 1980. The siblings were still in Texas? No, most of my siblings, see my dad had two wives. Okay. His first wife was Pete and Coke and all my brothers that know, all my brothers that played Latin jazz. Oh yeah, those are the- The Esquivel brothers, you know?

And then he married my mother, met her in Oakland, and married my mom and had me in San Antonio. Okay. And how many in that crew? Five. Okay, all right, so now you're all in a shack in orange. Yeah, we're in this shack in orange. How long did you live there?

And you know, it was beautiful in a sense because California was beautiful in 1957. It was gorgeous. Sure. But it was a culture shock, you know, because San Antonio was so comfortable in that. It was very Mexican. Totally, yeah.

You know? Yeah, and orange was not at that time. And now I'm in a place where I'm being called Wetback and Spick and you know. Oh really? Beaner and blah, blah, blah. And I'd never been called those names before. It was hard to understand.

Yeah, I grew up in New Mexico. It was probably 70, 80% Latino. Yeah, yeah. It was just the way it was. Yeah, it's the way it was. And so, you know, even the school system eventually refused to pronounce my name, Alejandro, and they called me Alex. Oh my God.

They branded me Alex. Yeah. And it was horrible. I lived with that until kind of like the 60s, you know, we started to kind of be more aware of our culture. Yeah, so you were born in 50? 51. 61. So you were like alive, awake, and engaged in the, when everything started to change culturally. Absolutely, yeah.

And you, and Mexican identity started to change? Yeah, it did for us. Yeah. Yeah. How so? Chicano power, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My dad would make fun of us and calls Chicano powder

Yeah, yeah, you know, but yeah, you know, so everything was changing the world was changed when'd you start playing? I didn't start playing till I was 24. You didn't pick up guitar till 24. I played, you know, my dad had a guitar Played a very rough guitar and sing songs to my mom. And you knew your brothers were musicians. But they were like incredible musicians. You know, they were gifted musicians, yeah. What kind of stuff were they doing? Latin jazz, they were playing with Mongo Santamaria,

Al Jader, Willie Bobo. Yeah. They were in Santana. They had a band in the 70s called Azteca. They were great. Just wonderful musicians. But you never aspired to that. Because with so many kids, my parents adored my older brothers.

And so I was like the seventh kid in the whole thing. And you just kind of get lost. My thing was very different. My parents didn't really understand what I was going through. But it's also interesting, though, at some point, I imagine it's because of the Velvet Underground influence that you did start to do, there were sort of like, you know, kind of jazz elements happening, you know,

throughout some of the records with the strings. Absolutely, yeah. And you know, I grew up in that great era where in Huntington Beach, where we eventually moved, there was a great club called the Golden Bear. Okay. Now everybody from Jimmy Reid to Hugh Masichela, Yusuf Latif, Mario McKeiba, I saw Paul Butterfield Blues Band East West tour. I saw Big Brother and the Holding Company,

Love, Buffalo Springfield, played a teen club. So I would see all these bands. When you were like what, how old? I was in high school age. Oh my God. Yeah. So that must have been mind-blowing. It was, yeah.

I mean, I loved records and I always loved record. Yeah, so as a kid and and what like Like I can't like I can remember concerts that made an impact on me. Mm-hmm I mean was there one where you're like, holy fuck This is it. Well, there were I saw one night at the shrine auditorium. It was the who? Big mama Thornton and dr. John what a a wild fucking lineup. Yeah, it was crazy. And the Velvets I saw at the shrine. It's so weird that in the 60s, because I think Bill Graham did that,

where he'd had these old blues guys around and they were just being introduced to the world almost. And he put them on these bills. I can't imagine Big Mama Thornton, what was the order though? Oh, the who had like, of course, but it would did they start Dr. John Big Mama came on first. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I saw like he was the weirdest thing. I saw the stones in 81 in Madison Square Garden. Now, the idea was I think that James Brown was supposed to open

this is years after what you were experiencing. And I don't know why he fell out. But somewhere they found screaming Jay Hawkins. And it was the weirdest fucking thing, dude. It was like, you know, he just came out with his voodoo stick. I don't even remember if there was a band. Did he come out of the coffin? Well, he did half the act, but it was just so bizarre in 81 to see Screamin' Jay. So when you saw the Velvets, what year was that, you think?

67 or so, maybe? It made an impact? Cause I mean, you're kind of a- Oh, totally, because you know the Velvets, what year was that, you think? 67 or so, maybe? It made an impact? Because, I mean, you're kind of... Oh, totally. Because, you know, it's weird, because in Huntington Beach, you could go to a party on any given night when that first Velvets album came out, and that record was playing some time throughout the night. Really? Well, that's pretty groovy, because, like, you know,

you would have thought it would have been more the West Coast thing, you know? We didn't dig that stuff that much. We weren't hippies. That was definitely the anti-hippie psychedelic thing. It was a different approach to drugs. It's so funny because I've always had more of a kind of connection to the New York thing. When we went to New York in, let me say it was 78, the nuns went, you know.

So you went, okay, so you start playing when you're 24, and how long does it take you to get it up to speed to go to SF and be with the nuns? No, that's when it happened. It only happened because of the nuns. It was me and my friend Jeff began the nuns. And you were like how old? 24.

So right when you got... Yeah. You know. That guitar sounded good, dude. I had a good tone. Yeah, man. I was lucky because... You always have good tone.

I had good, you know, we used a 250 watt Marshall heads through a hundred watt Gaelian Kruger, and then we used two 412 Univox cabinets. And with the Les Paul Jr. it was just a monster. Yeah, it was huge. So, okay, but I'm curious about the whole arc here. So you're down here, you're in Huntington Beach, you're taking it all in, and at what point do you just

pack your guitar and shit up and go to San Francisco of all places? Well, what happened, I guess it was in like around 74. There was a gig at the Hollywood Palladium, Well, what happened, I guess it was in like around 74. Yeah. There was a gig at the Hollywood Palladium, which was the Stooges with Ray Manzarek, the GTOs, Zolar X, Hollywood stars and the New York Dolls.

Wow. And some other people, I can't remember, but they called it the trash dance, the death of glitter rock, right? Right. So right after that, I was living right at Highland and Franklin. Yep. Behind the Hughes Market.

And this young lady that I had known from Huntington Beach, I was living with her ex-husband, right? Uh-huh. And that night, we got together and decided that we would just leave L.A. And we hitchhiked at night from Hollywood all the way to San Francisco. And made it to San Francisco. My friend was living in Marin. We went to San Rafael and that's when it all started really. Wow. What was going on in San Francisco though? Like that, it seems like, what, you say 74?

Yeah. So the whole 60s had crashed. Yeah. The place was probably a fucking speed freak disaster. Yeah, he was, my friend Jeff was working at a place called the Lion's Share in San Rafael. Uh-huh. And great bands. I saw Roy Buchanan there, man.

Oh my God. Amazing. Just unbelievable. That guy was possessed. It was incredible. He did a Hendrix medley. Oh, his Hey Joe is fucking phenomenal. But I mean, with just like a guitar, that Tele chord and a champ or whatever he was using. And that was it. No pedals or nothing. He's all over those volume knobs, man.

Four of those switches. We also played a gig with him later towards the end, and he wasn't as good, but. Wait, what, he was a bipolar alcoholic, right? Yeah, I think so, and junky too, I think. Oh, really? Yeah. So you saw that stuff,

and what's going on there when you start the nuns? Like, what's the scene? Nothing, there was nothing. We walked, you know, there was no place to play for bands that were like ours. Right. So this is kind of 75. So it's just happening in New York, so it wasn't even happening there yet. Not really.

Like that sound. But you picked up that sound from that show in LA. Yeah, we walked. And the records. And the records. And just growing up with, I loved garage bands. I used to love the Count Five and you know, all Lyme and the Yanks, bands like that, you know,

just garage bands, all of the Nuggets bands. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lenny K. Yeah, so anyway, that was kind of the inspiration. The Stooges always were like, Godhead for us. Too much, right? So good. Yeah, because I listened to Nuns yesterday and it's like it holds up pretty good.

It still rocks pretty hard, dude. That's funny that you say that. Why? Because every time I mention the Nuns, some people will clap, you know, and I say, if you're clapping for the Nuns, you never heard the Nuns, you know. It was of a time, but the guitar sound was good. Yeah, the guitar sounds good. You know, I mean, you can't, you know, it's just, that's how you made your bones.

And it was my first band. And I mean, look, the nuns took me around the world, you know, pretty much. Did they? Well, I mean, if it wasn't for them, I wouldn't have gone to New York, lived in the Chelsea, played with Judy Nylon. Well, so 78, like New York, I just talked to Thurston Moore a few days ago. And we were going over that time. I mean, 78 was peak shit there. Yeah, yeah.

And you were living in the Chelsea? Yeah, we moved to the Chelsea. Who was, what was the guy at the front? Stanley. Stanley, yeah. Stanley was great. And you know, it was weird because Stanley was there, Charles James, the great designer, was there.

Yeah. And then Sid and Nancy came to live there while I was there. Charles James, the great designer, was there. And then Sid and Nancy came to live there while I was there. You remember? Oh, yeah. Because Sid came over our house, the nun's house, after the last Sex Pistols gig at Winterland. And Sid came to hang out with us before he wandered off and got lost with, you know... Nancy?

With whoever, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Wait, in San Francisco? Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. So like, well, I have no sense of what he might've been like as a person.

He was a kid who loved rock and roll. Yeah. Loved the records, but they were pushing him to be that character, you know. Oh, they were? Yeah. And sadly enough, it overcame them. Killed them.

Yeah. How long were you in the Chelsea? Almost a year. Yeah? Yeah. Were you strung out? Never strung out, but I did do that one year. Yeah.

I guess everyone was. Yeah. Yeah, it was that kind of place at the time. Yeah. And what were you seeing there? Were you seeing like Patti Smith and everybody? Well, I saw Patti, you know, the first time I saw Patti was at the Whiskey. Oh, here, yeah.

And it was when she just played with DNV on keyboards and Lenny on guitar. Oh, okay. And the only people in the audience were my group of friends, the Stooges, Fast Freddy and some other people, and you know, that was it. Are you friends with Iggy? Yeah, somewhat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so funny. Who was it? Rollins told me, there's a difference between Iggy and Jim.

Yeah, there is. And Jim is very sophisticated. Well read, Jimmy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wild when I have him over here. Well, he came over to the old house and he comes out on the deck. He's got a little bunch of people with him. And we're about to go in to do the interview and he just starts stretching on the deck

and then like the shirt comes off. And then he... I got to sit there with him in the garage with his shirt off. He's a wonderful man. Yeah, he's the best. I mean, he really kind of like, there was no one like him.

Oh, yeah. And I would watch. I remember one time I went to see the Stooges and it was Chaka Khan, Rufus Chaka Khan, and the Stooges double bill. How does that happen? I don't know, but it was so cool. Wow. One time we drove from-

And the Stooges opened? They switched. It was like a three-night thing, engagement. They would switch billing. That's interesting because that was a time where there was so much music and there were not necessarily these camps. I mean, it was music was music. That double billing would never happen now, really.

Well, that was a beautiful thing about the 60s and the 70s, you know? And that's why we... You know, like DJs used to educate us about what they were playing. Right, yeah. Why that Sun Ra record was what it was, you know. And that led to seeking out all kinds of other things. Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore. It's been a long time, right?

It's all programmed, right? Yeah, I mean, I just settled the score the other day that I swear to God in the late 70s, I saw ACDC score the other day that I swear to God in the late 70s, I saw ACDC open up for Journey. And I talked to the bass player of Journey at some point, at some event when I lived in San Francisco briefly, and he said, no, we opened for them. I'm like, no.

And it was how I remembered it. And I always say the sad thing was I was there to see Journey. I saw ACDC at the old Waldorf in San Francisco in a club. Like in the 70s? Wait, with Bond? Yeah, when we were in the nuns. Yeah, with Bond. Oh my god. And they were unbelievable. Fucking crazy. Talk about tone. I mean, I know it's crazy. Yeah. So, when do you feel like you're starting to, you know, what were you recording in New York, if anything? I was playing with Judy Nylon. Okay. And Judy

had had a band called Snatch with Pat Paladin in London. Okay. And she was in New York now. And I played with her, Paavo Rowe, and Pat Place, who was in the Bush Tetras. And we were kind of put into that no wave. Right. Okay. So that, yeah, that's what I was talking to Thurston about. Yeah.

Like that whole Artie crew. Yeah. Artie Lindsay and those guys. Right, okay. So that, yeah, that's what I was talking to Thurston about. Like that whole Artie crew. Yeah, Artie Lindsay and those guys. Yeah, so you were kind of hearing that story. John Lurie, all those guys. Yeah, the Lounge Wizards and James Chance. So we did, you know, I played with her for a couple years and then I really learned a lot from her. The first time I played with her was at Max's

and we rehearsed one night in her hotel room and played the next night. And in the front row, in the front table pretty much was Sean Cale, Brian Eno and Chris Spedding. They were all friends of hers. But it scared the hell out of me. It must have. But I guess what you, well, I can hear that, like, you know, what you must have learned is like, you know, letting those must have learned is, like, you know, letting those, you know, getting into that space with those guitars, you know, it just seems like the no-wave thing that there was a, it wasn't like noise, but there was definitely a different space to it that was not regular rock and roll. No, it was a totally different, but a lot of that was very kind of like Gang of Four-ish,

you know, like not sharp, edgy guitar sounding. And so like my tone really didn't fit into it. I had to learn how to kind of work myself into it. To let the shit ring a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, instead of like that. Kang, kang, kang, kang. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mid, you know, that middy kind of sound. Yeah, yeah, because a lot of that no wave stuff, it's just, it's right on the edge of being horrible. Well, I won't say that, but yeah, you know. No, I know. It has its place. It's abrasive, it's abrasive, you know. Well, no, I think it created a space, but I, you know, if I'm sitting around, I'm not

going to be like throwing that on necessarily. Yeah, I got it. You know what I mean? know, if I'm sitting around, I'm not gonna be like throwing that on necessarily. Do you, you know what I mean? Yeah, sure. So, so you leave New York after a year and then you what, go back to Texas? No, I stayed in New York from 78 to 80. That's like prime time, dude. That was like, you know, the way Thurston put it

was that everything was happening so fast. So that original bunch of punk bands, you know, very quickly became almost in the eyes Everything was happening so fast. So that original bunch of punk bands, very quickly became almost in the eyes of the new kids, which was no wave, and some of the more, the punks that were doing different things, like almost bar bands. Yeah, yeah.

And a whole new thing was trying to happen. Yeah. You know, it was amazing because we would play gigs with K.O. a lot. We had the same manager, Jane Friedman, you know. Well, he produced which one? The Boxing Mirror for you? The Boxing Mirror, yeah.

Years later. Years later. Well, I mean, I can hear Cale in some of your stuff with the strings, right? Oh, I love Cale. Yeah. I mean, the reason, you know, I kind of, the template for strings for me was Street Hustle, the song. Yes.

Dun, dun, dun dun dun dun dun. Exactly. And then Cale's Paris 1919. Yeah. So, like, those two albums were just so important to me, you know. And when I started to do my thing finally, it wasn't until 91 that I went solo. Wow. So, now, did you know Lou?

No. Oh. No. Me neither. We asked him for directions once and he ignored us, but that was it. He's a little harsh, I think. I talked to Laurie Anderson recently about the book she put out, the Tai Chi book, which is this whole other Lou, where you're like, oh my God, this guy had a whole other thing

going, complex dude. Yeah, complex. And Tony Visconti and him shared the same master, Tai Chi master. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. And you did two records with Tony? Three. That must have been a treat. I love Tony.

What connected you to Tony? Was it Bowie? Well... T-Rex? I mean, the sound, of course, T-Rex, but what was happening was I'd just been signed to EMI. As a solo act? Yeah. Chuck Profit and I had written a record called Real Animal. Yeah, that's a good record.

When I took it to the label, the A&R guy said we didn't have any songs, right? Right. So I went to Ian Hunter and called Ian. I said, can I come out and hang out with you for a while? I went out to- In England? No, here in the back east.

Oh, he's here? Yeah. Oh, he's not British? I thought he was- He is British, but he lives out in Connecticut. Oh, okay. So I went on, hung out with him for about a week. We went through all the songs,

says you got a great album, just tell him to fuck off. Yeah. Then we were going to have Glenn Johns produce the record. Chuck and I went out to where he lives out at the Provence, I believe it's pronounced in France. Yeah.

And hung out with them for a while. Didn't really get a lot done. It was really kind of strange and came back and we had this kind of horrible phone call last too long and a lot of name, you know, name calling and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So I told Ian Ralfini, the president of the label, that I couldn't work with him. He calls him and tells him, we're not gonna work together, okay,

so who are we gonna get? I said, what about Tony Visconti? He goes, I'll call him. And Tony came out to Chicago, really cool, beautiful man, loved that we were playing harder rock at that time. Yeah, yeah. And wanted to make a rock and roll record, you know, and we did it. And with every song that we had written, that Chuck and I had written.

Wow. So that must have been like a big day. It was beautiful, man. I mean, we recorded in the studio out in Lexington, Kentucky that he liked. That's the studio thing, man. Tony Visconti likes the studio in Lexington, Kentucky that he liked. That's the way... The studio thing, man. Yeah. Lexington... Tony Visconti likes the studio in Lexington, Kentucky. He said it was one of his five favorite studios in the world. It's no longer there.

Yeah. But it was a horse farm. So you're out there. We're out there. You stayed there. You lived there. Yeah. We had a cook.

Wow. It was really... It's like doing a residency. Yeah, it was. We got treated very well. Now, do you think for your sound and for who you were that, in terms of the big shift in kind of defining part of your direction, was that rank and file stuff? In that, it showed me what I didn't want to do.

Interesting. Yeah. How's that? It's probably the worst experience I've had in a band. Quite honestly. But it seemed to be of a type that was, there was only a few people doing that. I guess it became. Well, it was definitely ahead of its time.

There's no doubt that we were ahead of its time. And I always feel like Rank never got its due credit for what it did. I have the record. Yeah, yeah. And Tony and Chip wrote great songs. They were the songwriters. Tony especially wrote some really beautiful songs.

But it was a really kind of like difficult atmosphere to be amongst, you know, brothers. Oh, yeah. And I was kind of the man out. They always kind of wanted me to be country guitar player, which I was, and I still had a Les Paul Jr. and a Marshall. Right. And it just didn't work out.

And I left. I left after the first album. And they went on? They went on. Oh, I mean, because what was that other band with that woman? I'm spacing her name and I'm spacing the band. Lone Justice. Lone Justice, yeah.

Maria McKee. Oh my God. Yeah, they were great. What a singer she was. And that was kind of the deal too, because we were touring with them. Oh, you were, okay. And we had the same management, I think.

Okay. And we played a the same management, I think. Okay. And we played a gig in Sacramento, I remember, and it didn't go well for us. So I was a scapegoat, right? So like, they come to me and again, it's my guitar playing and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And I just said, you know what?

Fuck this, I'm done. Yeah. And I called my mate, Bobby in Austin, I said, I'm leaving. And she said, fine, just'm done. Yeah. And I called my mate, Bobby, in Austin, and said, I'm leaving. And she said, fine, just leave, you know. So I left, and I remember all the way home, I played Foggy Notion by the Velvet. Sure.

And I said, this is what I want my new band to sound like. Oh, yeah, and then what was the new band? The True Believers. With your brother. Yeah. That's a good record, man. You guys cover Train Come Around the Bend? Yeah, yeah, and then what was the new band? The True Believers. With your brother? Yeah. That's a good record, man. You guys cover Train Come Around the Bend? Yeah, yeah, we do.

Yeah, man. But that's funny though, because whatever you hated about Rankin' File, I mean, you made that song, the country rock song that it could be. Yeah, that's funny, because we put that lap steel in there. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, like it's a totally reasonable interpretation because it's in there. It's in the Velvet's version. It implies it, but it doesn't really get there. Exactly, right? Well, so what was it like playing with your brother? You know, I thought it was going to be a dream band, and we were a great band. It was a great band. I think it sort of defines like the Austin sound at that time, right?

We were a great band. It must have been great live, right? Amazing. Yeah. Three songwriters, John D. Graham, my brother and myself, good rhythm section, you know, strong. And, but you know, it just didn't work with my brother and I, you know, strong. And, uh, but, you know, it just didn't work with my brother and I, you know?

It was kind of like Dave and Ray Davies of Chicano Rock or something. He's older? He's younger. Oh, he's younger? Yeah, he's great though, man. And what was he playing? Guitar, too?

He plays guitar. He's very into, uh, you know, his band, the Zeroes were a great punk rock band. Oh, I remember that, man. I don't know if I know the songs, but I remember the name. They had a great song called Wimp. Oh, okay. Yeah his band, The Zeroes, were a great punk rock band. Oh, I remember that band. I don't know if I know the songs, but I remember the name. They had a great song called Wimp. Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You're just a wimp. But that's what took you back to Texas, was after Rank and File? Rank and File moved to Texas. They were there. Yeah. And then you were there.

We met up in New York. Yeah. Chip came to New York. Yeah. We got Kevin Foley, who was the drummer for Judy Nylon. The bass player was Barry Myers, who's Barry Scratchy Myers. He was the Clash DJ on tour.

Yeah. He's in Rude Boy, that movie Rude Boy. But he was our bass player. We booked a tour. It was seven weeks long, with seven gigs in seven weeks. Took us from New York City all the way to Vancouver, BC. And one of the gigs was in Austin.

And we fell in love with Austin. I fell in love with Austin. They did, too. Oh, so it was like that was when it was really Austin, or just becoming the Austin that it became, right? It was still like, you know, the remnants of the progressive cowboy thing. Yeah.

So there was really, I mean, songwriters, like I'd never heard before, you know, the remnants of the progressive cowboy thing. Yeah. So there was really, I mean, songwriters like I'd never heard before, you know. And a great scene. Yeah, what was that one? It had everything. What was that one guy's name? They had three names, the country songwriter? Towns fans, yeah.

Not Towns, later. Gilmore? Ray Morihover? Gilmore? Oh, Jimmy Dale Gilmore. Yeah, Jimmy Dale. He's amazing, man. And Towns, yeah.

Joe Ely, who's amazing. Butch Hancock. They were all there. They were all there and Really cool, you know and it was really cool because was it mid 80s. It was the beginning of the 80s Okay, one, you know, so towns are still around towns is still around Played in backyards about heavy cat though. Oh, I mean, I can't it's hard for me to listen I can hear that, you know, I'll tell you something real quick when when my wife died, you know, she committed suicide my wife Bobby When was that that was in? 92 god, sorry, man. No 91. Yeah, I Went to go see towns

After that and I couldn't stay for the show. It was just too heavy. Yeah, man. Just too heavy, man. And that's the effect he had on me, though, you know. And I got to tour with Tones, you know. We toured in Italy together with Joe Ely and... Towards the end? Yeah. And then we toured in California up and down the West Coast from Seattle all the way down to San Diego. I can't, I, sometimes it's the weight of him emotionally is, it's hard for me to listen to. It's deep, man. Yeah, it's deep and heavy-hearted, you know?

When we were leaving Italy, we had just done this great tour. Yeah. And they had this big dinner, you know, like in a restaurant promot promoter Carlo Carlini. And the tables were set up kind of like the Last Supper. There was a long table at the top and then... Family style. Family style.

We were down here. But all the immortal gods were up here. So it was Townes, Rick Danko. Oh my God. Jonas Feld, Eric Anderson, Joe Ely, they were all up there. And then we were down here, but I was sitting closest to all these guys. Yeah. We had this amazing meal, nine courses, wine everywhere.

It was beautiful. Suddenly the promoter goes to get a guitar. He brings it out and he hands it to whoever was sitting, maybe Eric Anderson, I'd say. Then Towne sang a song, Joe sang a song, you know, Jonas sang a song. And it's starting to come to him. Danko? Danko sang a song right there at this dinner. And the guitar's starting to come to me.

I'm going, I got to get out of here. I don't know how to get out of here. I don't want to play in front of these guys. And, uh, and it came to me and, uh, and I played a song called wishing well. And, uh, I could hear Danko lean over to town. I could just close my eyes, you know, and start seeing the song. I could hear Danko lean over to town. I could just close my eyes, you know,

and start seeing the song. And I could hear Danko lean over to towns and say, that's a great fucking song, man. And I could have died right then, you know? That was it, you know? That was it. Those were my heroes. Is that when you were coronated in your mind as a songwriter?

Somewhat. It gave me a little more confidence, yeah. Danko was a fucking angel angel dude. I loved him. Oh my God. You know, we all went to my room that night and gambled and drank wine. He was calling Woodstock on the phone and he was just such a joy to be around. It seems like it, you know, I was in Boston

and I went to see the Jerry Garcia band when I was in college and he wasn't even on the bill. And he came out with an acoustic guitar, and he did Mystery Train, and he did Stage Fright, and left. Just him on that guitar. And it was like, it was crazy. I'll never forget it.

Yeah. I mean, and I watch him now, like, what an amazing voice and presence and all of it. It must have been amazing. He was a beautiful person, man. Yeah? I really loved him, yeah. So, so been a- He was a beautiful person, man. Yeah? I really loved him, yeah. So, by the time, like after that happens,

that's where you kind of lock into your zone? Yeah, that's what I made the record with. So, my wife passed away. That's so hard, dude, I'm so sorry. I had a, thank you, I had a seven-year-old daughter and she just had a baby, so I had a six-year-old daughter, and she just had a baby, so I had a six-month-old baby. Oh my God, was it postpartum, you think?

I think I have something to tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was working at Waterloo Records, right? Yeah, where's that? In Austin. Okay. You haven't been to Waterloo? I haven't. Oh, you gotta go, man.

Okay. Anyway, so. to Waterloo? I haven't. Oh, you gotta go, man. Okay. Anyway, so. It's a record store? Yeah. Okay, all right. No, I didn't know about it. It's weird. It's a killer store.

Okay. So anyway, I'm working at the store, and now I can't work, and, you know, there was a gentleman by the name of Steven Bruton. Steven had played guitar with Chris Christopherson for about 15 years. Oh, he's your guy. He produced those first couple records, right?

First three records. Oh my god, all right. And then he played with Bonnie Rage. Yeah, yeah. So he really took me under his wing. And I was damaged goods, man. I was crippled pretty much. And I didn't know what I was going, you know, I was crippled pretty much, you know? Yeah. And I didn't know what I was gonna do. And I had something called the Alejandro Esquivel Orchestra at the time,

which could be up to 15 pieces, horn section, keyboarders, backup vocals. And that was just something you were doing? It was just in town. And then he said, you know, we can't record this band, you know. It's too big. Yeah. We can't take it out on the road. So we worked on Gravity.

We, you know, and he says, I want to make a record. We got all his guys, Terry Wilson on bass. Yeah. We had Billy Ginn, Tom Canning on keyboards. Yeah. We had Dennis Kenmore and Frosty. You know Frosty, the drummer from Lee Michael's band. Lee Michael's, you know what I mean.

He was playing drums and Steven on guitar. Yeah. Charlie played on some songs, you know, Charlie Sexton. Yeah. And my friend Terry Lacazze too. But anyway, we made this album. It took nine days from the very first rehearsal to the final mix, and we made Gravity.

So that's what you were bringing. You brought it all. A lot of grief. Yeah, grief, yeah. I mean, because that record is one of the best records ever. Oh, thank you. I mean, Jesus Christ. But that record... You know, I was working at the record store and suddenly reviews are coming in on the record, you know, like from all over, everywhere, great reviews. And I'm selling my own record to the customers. Rock and roll, man.

Yeah. So, you know, but that began and then I started the tour. I wonder how did you, did you know Jason Molina? I didn't know Jason. I ran across him though I bet you you have big influence on that guy. I don't know but he was But anyway, yeah, so that began I started a tour and you know, we did a tour and I was kind of rusty you know, I hadn't been out in a while and Really had to learn how to front a band again. We were what, Four Piece? Yeah, it was a Four Piece, yeah.

Good, great players. We did a live record of Mostly Gravity, didn't you? I don't know. Oh, yeah, I think you, yeah, I mean, there's definitely a couple live records, and I know there's one where- Oh, More Miles of Money has a lot of gravity on it. Oh, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, that began now. Then I made 13 years, which was another record about... And you brought the strings in. Then I brought the strings in. I had cello. I had John Hagen from Lyle Lovett's band on the first record, but we really didn't work on it like I wanted to. The second record, we really honed in on strings. And that was like, it was a concept record really, wasn't it?

Well, it was about coming out of this grief, you know, trying to rise above the grief. Dude, it's rough. I don't think it ever goes away, man. I know I lost my girlfriend in 2020. And she just got sick and died. And yeah, I don't know, it kind of, the immediacy of it and the shattering nature of it is very, there's nothing you can do to control it.

But then it just kind of becomes part of something in you. And it definitely changes your perception of everything once you, I wouldn't say get out of it, but you know, move through it. Yeah, it was weird, man. You know, like I even had moments where I thought I'd see her again. Do you know what I mean?

Like I'd be walking a crowd or something like that. You know, there she is. I have dreams, man. I had a dream last week. Yeah. And then you're in the dream and you're like, oh, thank God. Yeah. And then you wake up the dream and you're like, oh, thank God. Yeah.

And then you wake up and you're like, hmm, and you just gotta look at it as a visit. And you know, we have two daughters. Oh. My youngest, Paloma. Yeah. She looks just like her. She's just like her, you know, so.

How are they doing? They're great. Oh, that's good. Yeah, they're wonderful, yeah. That's good. But then like that sort of starts the run for you, though, you just keep plowing away. Yeah all different kinds of stuff Pretty amazing because a lot of the records are very different

I fucking love that that I like boxing mirror a lot, but I and I just love that one that You know burn something beautiful. I think that guitar that was so much fun to make. Yeah Yeah, because it was just loud and you loud. And I wanted that from them. Because up in Portland, the Northwest, things are a little fuzzier musically. They're a little kind of more distorted. But it felt, it fit your voice really well. Yeah, it was great.

I loved it. When does the HEP kick in? Well, it actually kicked in the late 90s, right? And at that time, they didn't know a whole lot about it. So when I was going to a doctor, what happened was I was just terribly ill and started to turn yellow. Oh my God.

You know, it was bad. And the doctor that I went to who had treated a lot of AIDS patients, you know, said I wasn't a good candidate for interferon, which was the treatment at the time. That can kill you. Can kill you. Yeah. So she said, just go out and live the best life you can for as long as you can. That was her final words to me, right?

Holy shit, no help there. So I stopped drinking for a while. I tried to be pretty straight edge about everything. Started touring again with Sunvolt, I remember. And traveling through the Midwest where I'm on a diet of like apple juice. Is that when you were writing the Bourbonitis Blues? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And... Were you weak Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And...

Were you weak? Very weak. Yeah. And then, 2003 I think it was, I was doing a play that I had been part of called By the Hand of the Father. Right, that's a good record. Yeah, and we were recording, not recording, but a performance in Tempe, Arizona at the university.

And that day I began to vomit blood, right? Like a lot of blood. All day long. And then I felt better and I went to the sound check, but they started to, you know, I told them what was happening, so they started to kind of mark places where they could blacken the stage so I could split. Yeah. And then I threw up just before I went on stage. I made it through the show.

Fortunately, my sister, Dolly, was there. Yeah. And I passed out at the end of the show and got taken to the emergency room. And I was in at the end of the show and got taken to the emergency room. And I was in a hospital in Arizona. And they told me I had a year to live if I didn't get a liver transplant.

And I was beat up because I had varices in the esophagus, advanced cirrhosis of the liver and tumor in my stomach. Holy shit. So I was a mess. How'd you get treated, dude? I mean, like, how were you alive? You know, there was times when I just kind of was ready to give up, honestly,

where it was kind of seductive. I was kind of laid down and just go, I'm just gonna let it take me, you know. Yeah. But then I always, my children kind of lay down and just go, I'm just gonna let it take me, you know? Yeah. But then I always, my children had kind of always kind of weirded the thing, you know? Brought me back. And I made it through one treatment.

I remember they put me on interferon again. Yeah, so you did do it eventually. It almost killed me. So I only lasted three months on that. Told the doctor I couldn't take it anymore. It was, uh, it was eating away my bone marrow, you know? Yeah.

So I just stopped and I found a Tibetan doctor, Dr. Diki. She's out here in the West coast. And I went to see her and she kept me alive for... until about, let me see, about six years ago, when they finally came up with a combination of drugs that totally kicked it out of my system. I no longer have it.

What about the tumor? Gone. Everything's gone. Holy shit. I mean, I still have varices. Yeah. So I have to, uh, take a medicine for that beta blocker, Gone, everything's gone. Holy shit. I mean, I still have varices. So I have to take a medicine for that beta blocker, you know? Yeah.

And I take a, like a, a Meprazole because. Is that a steroid? It's for, what is it called, acid reflux. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I have to get bandaged every now and then, my esophagus, you know? Yeah.

But as far as the hep C, I no longer have it. I know my buddy Jerry got in on that. They can kick that thing now. Now they have a pill. I think you take one and it's gone in a month. That's amazing. Yeah. He got lucky on that.

He was in the trials and he got the goods, not the placebo. And he kicked it. That's wonderful. Good for him. He'd been fighting it for years. You know Jerry Stahl? No, I don't. And he's a writer.

He's a great guy. But, you know, it's... It was really one of the most frightening things I've ever been through, you know? And I've had a lot of close calls. Oh yeah, it sounds horrendous. Yeah. You had close calls before the disease?

Yeah, you know, like surfing. Yeah. Booze, whatever. Drowned, you know. Kids, you know, like surfing. Yeah. Booze, whatever. I was drowned, you know. Kids doing drugs with people. Oh, yeah. You don't know what you're gonna get. Stupid shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But like all the records after that, I mean, you must have, you know, between the grief of losing your wife and then getting a new lease on life, I mean, it must have changed your perspective quite a bit. You know, that's when I really started to look back, when I was sick. And that's when I wrote Real Animal with Chuck.

You know, Chuck and I wrote Real Animal. But it was about the nuns, you know? The story's about the nuns, right? Little bit about rank and file, but just being in bands that, you know, I loved being in those bands, but they fell short, you know. Yeah. But they really weren't meant to be that type of band.

Yeah. That was never part of our, you know, we didn't have a career plan or anything like that. We're just playing. Yeah. But then like you go on to make these other records where, you know, like The Crossing is a meaningful record. It had purpose and I have to assume that your perspective shifted to the bigger world anyways.

Yeah, totally. And the story is my father's story too because he came from Mexico, from South Teot and he crossed when he was 12 years old, you know, on his own. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, I have a history of that as part of my lineage. Yeah. I think in my family, there's so many great, great musicians, you know. Sheila Ease, my niece, you know.

Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Juan and Peter Michael and my brother Javier, my brother Mario had a great band called the Dragons out of San Diego. Yeah. And, but I guess I'm kind of the storyteller. Yeah.

Of the family. Yeah, the archivist. Yeah, yeah, the archivist, exactly. The poet. Yeah. Someone's got to do it. Yeah, yeah, it's a good gig. Yeah.

Now, when you, what'd you figure out, like coming up on this new record, which is a great record. what did you figure out coming up on this new record, which is a great record? Now, when you played The Last to Know or Wave on the new record, did it have a new meaning for you? Were you able to, or were you just doing it a new way? I've always loved the idea that, like, movie, music, songs are like small movies, right? Short little movies. When they're done well, right?

Yeah. When they're great. Yeah. And I felt like with Wave, I could see the big picture. You know, it became clearer to me with that interpretation that we did. Yeah. And it became more like a soundtrack. And I love that.

That's great. I also love your version of Pale Blue Eyes. That's a good cover. Oh, thanks. I don't remember what record that's on, but that's a hell of a song. Yeah, I've been doing that one forever. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It was great talking to you, pal. It was wonderful. Such a pleasure. Thank you.

I'm glad we finally did it. Yeah, man. I'll see you in Austin. I'll be there in April, I think, if everything works out. I'm sorry, but we're going to be on tour this time. Oh, you're going to tour this record or just a general? Yeah, this record. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a, I got a, do you ever hear of Central Matic? Do you know that band? No. You need to check them out. Great. They're no longer, yeah, but they were an amazing band out of Texas. Yeah. And the keyboard player, Scott, but they were an amazing band out of Texas. And the keyboard player, Scott Danbombs, my keyboard player.

Mark Kenny's on drums. He played with Black Joe Lewis, you know, drummer. And then James Mastro, who was in the bongos, plays with Patti Smith. Yeah. Bunch of people. He's our fourth member. Yeah. He'll be opening the shows too.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. You feel strong too. shows too. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah, you feel strong too, you seem good. I feel great, man. All right, well have a good tour. Yeah, and have a good time in Austin. Thanks, man. ["Echo Dancing"]

["Echo Dancing"] Alondra Escovedo, what a fucking story. What a great talk. His new album, Echo Dancing, is available now. Go get it. Hang out for a minute. Addiction doesn't discriminate people. In Canada, for instance, we lose 20 people to drug overdose every single day. So if you're listening to this and you've experienced addiction, just know that you're not alone. CAMH is the Center for Addiction and Mental Health, and they're hard at work creating better treatments and interventions for anyone experiencing addiction.

CAMH is revolutionizing our understanding of the brain and transforming patient care by knocking down the barriers that keep people from getting help. Sometimes it feels like there's no hope if you're feeling the impact of addiction in your life. Maybe you experience it directly or maybe indirectly, like if you're dealing with the effects it has on your family or friends or co-workers. You don't have to surrender to hopelessness because CAMH is confronting addiction head-on through groundbreaking research. And right now you can partner with CAMH to build a future where no one is left behind.

Help change mental health care forever. Donate at camh.ca slash wtf to help CAMH treat addiction and build hope. That's camh.ca slash wtf. You're invited to an immersive listening party led by Rishikesh Hurway, the visionary behind the groundbreaking Song Exploder podcast and Netflix series. This unmissable evening features Hurway and Toronto Symphony Orchestra music director Gustavo Gimeno in conversation.

Together, they dissect the mesmerizing layers of Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, followed by a complete soul-stirring rendition of the famously unnerving piece. Symphony Exploder, April 5th at Roy Thompson Hall. For tickets visit TSO.ca. Hey folks today is the 20th anniversary of my first day on the radio. My old Air America radio show Morning Sedition premiered this day in 2004. Over on the Full Marin we've been looking back at some of that old radio stuff

like when I would call my dad to review movies without him knowing it. Hello. Hey dad, what are you doing? You sweeping? Yeah, I was hanging out in bed. Come on. Come on. It's time to get up. You want to talk about movies? We've only seen a couple. But what about the Oscars? Have you seen all the Oscar movies? We saw Million Dollar Baby and I saw Sideways for the second time. Yeah, did you like it the second time? Yeah. What did you think of that? You think that deserves like the best writing? That's a hard call, you know. I don't know what their criteria, what they're looking for. You never do, but you know, it's the politics or or whatever, but that Jim Cento, I guess is his name.

Jimati? Paul Jimati? Paul Jimati, yeah. He sort of helped the picture. He was a great sort of content straight man and the picture was good. We're pretty selfish guys ourselves. It's something we could identify with, I think. Yeah, that's true. Full Maron subscribers can hear the recent WTF Origins bonus episodes, where we talk about those old radio days. To sign up, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click

on WTF Plus. And just a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. I'm gonna be a good boy. I'm gonna be a good boy. I'm gonna be a good boy. Boomer lives, Monkey and La Fonda, Cat Angels everywhere.