WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1531 - Jimmy Carr

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

When Marc asked Jimmy Carr to be a guest on WTF years ago, Jimmy admits he wasn’t ready for it. He was already an established comedian at the time, but he felt like Public Jimmy was one thing and Private Jimmy was another. Now years later, Jimmy believes that age and experience have allowed him to get out of his comedy comfort zone and explore more personal truths, as he does in this talk with Marc and in his new Netflix special, Natural Born Killer. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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What the fuck Nicks? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron, this is my podcast WTF. Welcome to it. Have a seat. Have a run. Have a drive. Do your work. Do some knitting. Do some riveting. Do some engine work. Is there anyone out there working on an engine? Yeah, I don't know what people do. You get obsessed.

You focus and you get into it. I'm that way I've done that with many things the weird thing about that is that when you get involved with either amassing or working on one thing Compulsively, I've done it with some some minor woodworking. I've done it with I've done it with you know collecting records. I've done it with a recipe, but the weird thing about having that compulsion, a sort of singular focus that you just can't get out of your head and that you have to do, is that once you do it, you hit a wall with it. Whether it's being a completist in terms of like, I got to have all the records by that guy, or it's getting a recipe adjusted just right, or maybe

building or rebuilding engines or a guitar, whatever it is. I mean, I guess some people it becomes their life, but for me, like I'll get into it and I'll work it and I'll work it. And then, and then like when I'm sort of, I've done all I can, it goes away and then it's just a memory. There you go. You know how to make that thing exactly how you wanted to make it.

You now have all those records by that guy. There you got, I imagine engines are different, especially if it's a singular focus where it's like one car that you love and you just keep doing it and then some things for me like eventually they just you know, I'll break them and Or they you know, they just don't come out the way I want and then there's that reminder I've done that with stuff me and my big ideas. Don't go on YouTube to figure out how to

To get the red shoe polish that some guy at the airport got on the nice heels of your Brian the Bootmaker boots because he polished the goddamn soles on the sides. You can't sand that off. You can't sand rubber. You can't just use alcohol to get it out. It's fucked until it naturally wears off. And either you just say, fuck these boots, or you say, well, this is the way they are now.

This is the life these boots are living. I don't know if that makes sense to anybody or whether you're making a cake for the fourth time, but I don't know. Just some thoughts I had in the moment. Okay, look, today on the show, Jimmy Carr is here. Jimmy Carr, he's a British Irish comedian and actor. He's been a host of several panel shows in Britain, and he's now set to release his fourth

Netflix special this week. And look, I've known about Jimmy Carr forever. Man, it goes back to a bad time in my life, actually, if I'm to be honest with you. The first time I went to Edinburgh, not in great shape mentally, emotionally, just in the beginning of a separation with my second wife, that was devastating,

but I was booked there, and I was on a double bill with Kirk Fox. Many of you have heard bits and pieces of this conversation, of this story, but it was horrendous. I don't love going to other countries for a long time, and here I was signed up to do a month, three weeks or whatever, in Scotland. And it's not like there's no language barrier. Well, I don get acclimated to the spectrum of Scottish accents. But what do I remember about that trip?

I just was miserable and Kirk and I were not drawing crowds. And I met Jimmy there. I met him for the first time with Morgan Murphy. And I knew he was a big act. And I knew he did primarily one-liners of the dark variety. That was sort of his thing. He was sort of almost a ghoulish Bob Hope. And I could tell he was a pro, that's for sure.

He definitely had a huge following. He definitely had his craft in place. I've always been impressed with guys who can do jokes, like just jokes for an hour. It's kind of amazing to remember that you haven't done a one-liner. And he struck me as an okay guy and I wanted to get him on the podcast,

but he never, I don't know if he didn't wanna do it. I got the sense that he didn't wanna share on that level, but whatever's happened in his life, he now does, and he's now here. You know, it's weird, I remember, it's just coming back to me. It must've been in August, because to keep my sanity, I went to a small AA meeting in Edinburgh, like every day I was there, at least every other day,

and I became fairly close with that group. And this is just the testament to the sort of community. And how sober was I? Well, I was already like probably six or seven years sober at that point, but I do remember going to this meeting and being kind of like taken care of in a way, because I was emotionally diswrought and I was in another country.

And I remember, I think I had an anniversary, a sober anniversary while I was there. And I remember they gave me like this little kind of like stone polish, stone elephant. And I have it. And it meant a lot to me with a little card. And it's just a testament to the support available to you if you want it. Even if you don't want to work a program or anything else. If you're in a pinch and you're feeling squirrely, you can usually just show up at one of those things and whether you like it or not, feel better. But I am grateful to that, that that fellowship in Scotland for that experience. That's for sure. It definitely helped me. Tonight, I'm in Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theatre as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival.

I'll be in Montclair, New Jersey on Thursday, May 2nd at the Wellmont Center. Glenside, Pennsylvania near Philly on Friday, May 3rd at the Keswick Theatre. Washington, D.C. on Saturday, May 4th at the Warner Theatre. Munhall, Pennsylvania outside Pittsburgh on May 9th at the Carnegie Library Music Hall, Cleveland, Ohio on May 10th at the Playhouse Square, Detroit, Michigan on May 11th at the Royal Oak Music Theater. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all my dates

and links to tickets. You can do it. You can do it. Come on out. I saw the movie Civil War, and I did not know what to expect, and I don't know what you're expecting. I don't know if you're,

I talked to a lot of people and they're like, I don't wanna go, because many people feel that on some level, even if, if polls are correct, many people feel we're on the verge of a civil war with a very specific line between the two ideologies. The political division in this country is profound.

And I think most of us, it's gotten to the point where, like I was in the Midwest, you walk down the street and you're walking by people. And in your brain, you're both thinking probably for different reasons. I bet he's one. I bet they're one. And that's not good. It's not good, but it's hard to get past.

And I wish we could get past it. But heading into the civil war, you want to think that, okay, well, this is going to be a depiction of the possibilities of what civil war would look like in America. And perhaps it is, but there is no teams really. There's no ideological motives that you can really attach yourself to. I don't wanna spoil anything, I don't know if it's possible, but the president who is played by Nick Offerman

in a small but powerful part, has all we really know about the president, and he's gotten rid of the FBI, and he's taken a third term for himself. So that's not right. But then there's like these different sort of armies or militias or forces. There's the Texas California alliance, which is odd. But intentionally, because those two states really represent the division in our country

right now. But in this movie, you don't go into it, but they are aligned, and there's the Florida military or whatever, and then there's a quick mention of something up in the Pacific Northwest that might be Maoist. So that's all you really get, though. In terms of the actual fights and bloody combat, you don't know who's fighting who. All you know is that they're Americans,

which is a very interesting way to portray this. You follow this crew of press people, photographers and one aging journalist, but at any given point where they're seeing combat or seeing carnage, you don't know who did it or why. Even in the battles, you're not sure who's against who. All you know is they are Americans fighting Americans and killing them.

And in each situation, you sort of are kind of shown the humanity or lack of humanity in all of these situations, whether they be the shooters, or whether they be people refugees, or whether they be bystanders. But what's really interesting about the movie is not really knowing whose side is what, what side is what, what anybody stands for.

There is hints at it, and you do know that they're gunning for the president. But in terms of ideologically, it's vague. I know that's sort of hard to wrap your brain around and even hard to see how that would work, but it does work. And there's definitely moments that are taken from even the Congo, just how do regular people and even the American Civil War, how do neighbors kill neighbors?

How do relatives kill relatives? It's in there. So if you're expecting either, you know, if you're a progressive and you're expecting some apocalyptic vision with identifiable sides that sort of, you know, make your nightmare come true. That's not really what it is. If you're a right-wing sociopath, you might have a couple moments,

but it's not really what it's about. These teams are not really represented. What's represented is war, and what's represented as Americans at war with themselves. And it's a really a study of the humanity and lack thereof of war. And I thought it was a compelling and I thought it was a good film. And I would recommend it. How's that? How's that for you? Go see it, don't be afraid of it. All right, look, Jimmy Carr is here

and I did not know him and I did not think I would ever get to know him. I did not think that he would be willing to talk, but it was good. It was good to talk to him and smart guy, funny guy. His special, Jimmy Carr, Natural Born Killer is out on Netflix starting tomorrow, April 16th. And this is me and Jimmy.

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Well, as evidenced. But it's that weird thing though, those places that... I saw Barry Manilow the other night. At Carnegie? No, I was in Vegas. And he was talking about when he played, he knew he'd made it when his grandfather came, oh, his father came to see him in Carnegie Hall.

I thought I've played there. It just seemed otherworldly to me. The idea of these, there's certain places that have that. And we get to go in there and do our thing. And it's so recent, man. It's like- It's a history. Well, but it only goes back.

I mean, I know you can trace comedy back to the trickster gods of prehistory, but I think it's Carlin and Pryor. And this is the newest medium, right? So like, you think, what's America given the world? Right, jazz, I think. Yeah, sure. Westerns. And stand-up comedy.

And stand-up comedy is so in its infancy. The fact that we get to do it now is like you've been in it most, you've been in it almost as long as comedy's been going. I think so. It's sort of like- How many years in it? 35? You can look at rock and roll the same way.

That was 57, right? In 57, rock and roll happens. And I believe- That's incredible, isn't it? It's wild. I believe that the closer to the source you are, the better, on some level, the connection you have to have to the source like they're the bands that we grew up with that were one generation away Well the 70s the thing that blows my mind. Yeah 70s people talk about I am music now And they you know kids love what they love right sure but the 70s like every 18 months

I mean I was a baby, but every 18 months there was something new. It was like a reggae. Yeah happened No, not a new band. Yeah reggae happened. And then Scar and Trojan happened. You went, that's a different genre. Totally. I wonder about comedy. And then Crout Rock happened. Crout Rock, yeah. It's like a different genre every 18 months.

You really think that modern standup is really that young? I really do, yeah. And I think it's like, if people don't remember. I think it starts with, I think, OK, obviously there's, there's Lenny Bruce sort of beforehand, right? So it's all Shelly Berman. I mean, early Cosby. Yeah.

All of those, all of those kinds of original fire. Amazing. Right. But I think that was nightclub comedy. It was a slightly different thing. I think like people on stage would have been like Billy Connolly in the UK or Jasper Carr. Guys filling an auditorium and doing like an hour and people have just paid to

see them. It's almost like someone told me a thing about, I think it was Deep Purple at the Hammersmith Apollo was the first ever band that didn't play on a bill. Oh really? The Beatles always played on a bill. There was always like other people, well we're going to have a juggler and some trapeze artists and then we'll have a singer and we'll have someone to do ballads and then you come on.

They did that in England with the variety show stuff? All the variety shows. Everything was a variety show until that point. So that thing of like modern stand up. Well like 62, 1960? That went to like 69. Everything was, I think it was 69 is like. Bill Graham did it out here, but it wasn't even with the rock thing.

I mean he was trying to integrate the new rock bands of the 60s with the old blues artists and folk artists. So he did not a variety show, but he tried to mix it up. Yeah. But you're saying that stand up isolated as in our form. I think is in a big room is new. I think pretty new. I mean, listen, there's no first.

Steve Martin. There's never a first. Okay. So Steve Martin's the first ever arena guy. And then it's Eddie Murphy. And Eddie Murphy's such a weird quirk of standup. Because no one else came out fully formed. It's never happened before.

It may never happen again. Bob Newhart was pretty fully formed. But he was a much older guy. He lived a life. But yeah, kinda. It was a very odd story about him. It was radio. He started in radio.

And when he recorded that first album, it was really the first time. Was that the button down comedian? Yeah, it was like the first or second time he'd ever done it as a set. It's crazy. The New Heart story is crazy. I never knew that. I've got the records. I've never really... Yeah, he was doing radio bits. And he put them together. I interviewed him. And it was really... He had never done stand-up before like those nights almost. Wow.

It's crazy. I spoke to someone that saw him I just try to think who it was some comic I knew paid and went to see him they kind of pay homage. Yeah. And it was you know and he got a really lovely reception very old audience and it was you know one of one of his last shows and yeah and went oh he's kind of doing old bits and it took him 20 minutes to go, oh, this is where it's from. That's right, yeah, sure.

This is the source. This is the source. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like someone seeing the original, oh this is where they got it from. This is the Robert Johnson record that everything's based on. This is hearing Paco Bell's canon and going, oh that's where indie rock got melody from. Sort of interesting, right? So I think comedy's in the infancy. I think this is hearing Pachelbel's Canon and going oh, that's where indie rock got melody from sort of interesting, right? So I think comedies in the infancy. I think this is new

Okay, I'd like to believe that I guess just just like you know rock and roll it seems like any idiot can do it Can they Neil Brennan made a really interesting point last year maybe two years ago. He's good at making points. He is yeah He's our god. I love He is, yeah. Oh god, I love Neil. Anyway, it was at Montreal. He did like a State of the Union type talk and he went, look, there's 60,000 brain surgeons in the world. Yeah. There's how many guys you would trust to do a special? Maybe 300 people that could do a good special? A good special.

A good special. But you know, it does, that's not stopping anybody. That's my point. That's my point. I didn't say that anybody can do comedy well, but with the advent of new platforms. The bar feels low for comedy and then is extraordinarily high because it looks very easy. You're standing there with a microphone, there's no barrier to entry, you don't need equipment and it looks like it might be an easy thing to do.

I think it's generational. I think people of the new generation just want to see kids their own age do funny shit. They don't have a context. There's no context anymore. So however we paid our dues or whatever mythology we put together for ourselves to justify our existence as professional comics, it means fucking nothing to them. But you pay your dues now or later. Or you quit. comics. It means fucking nothing to them. But you pay your dues now or later. Or you quit. Anyone could be huge on the back of a TikTok thing.

But how will it last? Well, I get that. But sometimes you see these young comics and they're posting their first bits on TikTok. I'm like, what are you doing? You're going to be embarrassed. Yeah, you're not ready yet. But you're going to look back on this and be like, why the fuck did I put that up there? You can't take it back. I don't know what we're going to do. What What are we gonna do with politicians in 30 years time?

We're gonna we're just gonna have to live with politicians where we've seen a dick pic. Well, I I guess I mean I don't know what we're doing with them now. It doesn't seem like anybody with any real Civic concern wants the job anymore. So I have no idea. It's a very weird thing I heard something recently that was like let's see this thing and then we talk about America and sort of how America's cut it's sort of it's in a perfect spot. Yeah. For what? Well, it can afford to have a political system this fucked because it is so blessed geographically and- Well, you would, that's the big hope that because it's a federalist union and that every state has states' rights, but it doesn't mean like crazy fuckers can't just take over every state does it I?

Think it might I think it might just be okay. Maybe I'm very optimistic Well, that's all I think that's all anyone's looking for if we can just be okay Yeah, we'll get through it, but who the fuck knows dude. Well things are I think things are getting better I quite like that Steven Pinker thing. I'm very, I'm very optimistic. I mean, by every metric, things are getting better, right? What's getting worse? Well, I mean, I hear that. I mean, I understand there are some things getting worse. I think a lot of people's brains are a little soft and a little undisciplined. So whatever is getting better.

But there's always like two things going on. So there's that thing of like people's attention spans now are really short and they're looking at TikTok and four second videos. But also very long. People will watch 60 hours of Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad. One Joe Rogan podcast. Yeah, but that long form thing is. My concern is how easily led and how easily led and how easily brain fucked people are.

But I guess it's always been that way. But whatever advances we've made in technology has made it very efficient. Yes. The brain fuckery is faster. Much faster. Yeah. I mean, I'm doing a bit now about, I don't know what's faster. What makes people crazy faster, Facebook know, Facebook or crystal meth.

And it's tight, you know, it's... It's neck and neck. It's neck and neck. But you know, there's a great book about this. Neil Postman wrote this book in 1984. And we're amusing ourselves to death. I've read that book. So great, right?

It's a great book. But everything he's prophesied, I mean, that was... Yeah, he called it. He called everything. He didn't change anything. Yeah, but now, like, you're talking about politicians, and now that is the, that is how people judge them is how amusing they are.

Like Trump is, Trump is a clown. He's one of the great evil buffoons. He's a wrestling heel. Yeah. But that thing of like going, uh, Aldous Huxley was kind of right. Cheap dopamine hits is what we're giving away our freedom for. Sure. It's this idea that people are- And you can hold it in your hand and you don't have to take anything.

Well, the lovely thing about, the lovely thing about standup is it, it feels like it's in real life. You sort of do it, you stand up in front of other people. For us it does. It's tribal. It's, it's brilliant.

Well, it's that thing where you go so much of life now is a proxy because we've done this thing to kids where we've sort of helicoptered the parents, as broadly as a society, helicopter parented and kept them so safe. Right. So the only freedom they got was online. The only freedom they got was online. So we did that. I think that this like our generation. Well, the idea of just giving the kid an iPad, everyone surrenders to it. What about your kids? How old are your kids? My kids are four and two.

Did you give them an iPad? No. No. They were allowed a little bit of TV. No, but I mean, you give them a phone, are they looking at the phone? Are they pushing buttons? They're not allowed to.

They're not allowed the phone. No buttons yet? No buttons. No buttons, no screens? A little, tiny bit of screen, tiny bit of TV, you know, kids thing, but like, very limited. Four seems like first iPad, iPad time, no?

Four? I don't think so. I think like, I watched that thing on, what was it called? The social network or something? Four seems like first iPad time, no? Four? I don't think so. I watched that thing on, what was it called, the social network or something? It was on Netflix and it was kind of all the guys that starred those companies go, oh no, you can't give those to your children. Right. No.

God no. No, this is, no, no, don't take the poison. It's like the Sackler family going, no, no, don't take it. I don't care if you're in pain. Well let's talk about this idea of politicians and the idea of things getting better. And like, you know, obviously right now is a good time for comedy. And in some of the stuff that is getting better is our ability to find our audience. If you have the goods, you can find your people.

You've got the famous, isn't that the fact about you? You sell more single tickets than any other comedian. That's a joke I used to do. Is that true? I heard that was true. Which I kind of take as a point of honor. Yeah, well I mean I used to do a bit about that because there'd just be these sad, I could tell who they were. You know, these sad guys that would come, but they would,

the idea was that like they couldn't get anyone to go with them. That was the idea. But it's a weird thing of like, I don't know if you ever do this, but you look out in your audience and you go, who needs this? Who needs it? Like you get your chat and someone in the audience. My audience definitely needs it. Yeah, I think you need it too. I think that thing about what you do on stage.

Do you? What you bring. I think I do in a very different way. But it's that need for affirmation. The idea that comedy's not the healthiest because the locus of control is outside of you. You need the audience to like you. Yeah, I don't know if I like it.

I've thought about that a lot in terms of why I do it. Because I'm not one of these guys who loves to be loved necessarily. I like to have them fight for it. But I do feel that if I have a point of view on something, I would like to see if it's a common experience. And over time, I realized that, even though I think I have broad appeal,

it's fairly specific what I do, but it is validated by the people that like what I do. So I'm not looking for love, but I am looking to be understood. And if I am understood, I think I'm helping those people that understand me. A friend of mine said something, you know the singer Robbie Williams, British singer? Yeah. Well famous in Europe. Yeah. He's very good. He said this thing, it was quite heartbreaking. He said, I'm an entertainer in the old fashioned sense. If you don't love me, I don't love me.

And I think stand up comedians, I think we both have a thing where we desperately need to be loved, but totally on our own terms. I'm not going to love me either way, but I appreciate the sentiment. Yeah. I mean, it's a weird thing. It's like, I don't know where that comes from. Are you still in therapy? Are you still doing a lot of therapy? No, I never did a lot of therapy. I've gone to therapy at different times in my life. I'm pretty aware of who I am, and I don't ever think I have a real problem

with people that characterize comedy as some sort of therapy for the comedian. Because I don't really think that's the deal. And I do fairly personal stuff, but this is my point of view, and this is how I see people through my experience. So if I'm gonna share that experience and it is a common experience with the people that come,

then we're all good. But I know what my problems are. I don't need to go into therapy to reassess them. I know what they are. And some of them have gotten better. How about you? Not doing a lot of therapy. Did you ever?

Yeah, I did quite a lot of stuff, but lots of kind of CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. What is it? What is that? It's like thought patterns. Well, I know what cognitive behavior therapy, that's basically don't do that, and you remember not to do it.

A little bit. A little bit. A little bit of that. Lots of NLP as well. Lots of stuff that was kind of neuro-linguistic program. Yeah, I've never heard of that. What is that? It's very kind of, it's very similar, actually.

It's a lot of the stuff from cognitive behavioral therapy. So it's kind of going, look, the map is not the territory. What you imagine the world to be, your perception of the world is everything. And changing your perception is easier than changing the world. So it's that kind of thing of going, look, disposition is more important than position. And changing your disposition is, changing the world is very difficult. Changing your disposition is that change the world is very difficult. Your disposition is a bit easier. Well, that's interesting because that's a slippery slope to being brain fucked.

Right? Like, you know, if your perception is all there is, that's where you get into that weird place of like, you know, what is a fact? Well, it's something I believe because it makes me feel like it's right. Yeah, I mean, I'm not not quite, but yeah, yeah. But you're saying it's a practical approach to adjusting your perception so it's not all falling down on you. Yeah, so if you have a problem, you need to kind of change the way you think about that rather than thinking about, oh, well, I don't like that thing.

I don't feel uncomfortable. You go, well, actually, reframing it is often a very valuable thing. So if you kind of, if you go into life, kind of think, well, pressure is a privilege, right? So if you have that as a kind of mantra, and you go into life kind of thing, well pressure is a privilege, right? So if you if you have that as a kind of mantra and you go, okay This is gonna be a difficult thing, but I'm excited about it or you could say I'm terrified Right and it really makes a difference to how the gig goes where does this is gonna suck fall in? This is gonna suck happens. Yeah But that's not terrified or excited. It's it's more slightly diminishing

So if it's even a little better than that, it's good. Well, I slightly believe happiness. There's a couple of definitions of happiness that I work with, and one is, right, it's expectations exceeded, right? Why is your birthday awful? Birthdays are always the worst, because it's meant to be the best night, and it's, ah, okay, it's fine, yeah, your friends came and it was nice. New Year's is like awful. Terrible. It's like, it's the worst.

I just don't do anything though. Do you? No. But it's a night for amateur drinkers. Even my last birthday was good. 60 was good. Good friends. Congratulations. Thank you. But that thing of like going sometimes a random Tuesday night in a club or a show where you kind of go, it's not the biggest, especially before we started recording, talking about you play the big room with a big reputation. Great. But sometimes when you just play the little place in the small town and the crowd are there for you, it's just amazing and it kind of blows your mind. Yeah, for me, if I can get out of myself and find the stuff, if things happen,

that's when it really happens. Like usually my best shows- When you find it on stage. I do. I find that terrifying as an idea. But to me, that's like just the way, well, it's, because lately I just, it amazes me because if I do that, like if I have a premise already getting laughs, but it's not full yet, you know,

it's gonna fill itself out, is the moment it happens, I don't know where that comes from. It's fucking magic. You know, it's like, it just comes out of the ether because I've put myself in a position where I have to be funny. And I'm that way anyways,

but I don't know where it's going to go. And if I have the freedom of mind and something comes, I'm like, wow, that was great. But is that like that's, it's almost like you're, you're gaming the flow state of stand-up comedy. You're going, okay, I'm going to back myself into a corner in front of 200 people in a club and they've all come and paid to see me and give me up their evening. And I got nothing. I got two lines on a bit of paper and no, I don't know where this is going.

No, I'll have, I'll at least have premises that are getting left. But I know that they're going to evolve. Right? So, but that's the, I'm not going to go up there and just like have nothing. I don't do that. Right. But you've got the, you've got the beginning of the idea. Sure. I've got enough of the idea to where it's funny. And I just like I wait for it to fill in over a few months. Yeah. It's great. You put it all on paper. You're like a mathematician. Yeah, I like much less alchemy, much more science in terms of like... Well, you can tell that's your style. Yeah, I mean it's the... I think it chose me though because when I started out, like I was obviously watching like Stephen Wright,

Neema Phillips and Rita Rudner and gang to gang comics. You're a joke guy, yeah. I'm a's the, I think it chose me though, because when I started out, like I was obviously watching like Stephen Wright, Neema Phillips and Rita Rudner and gang to gang comics. You're a joke guy, yeah. I'm a joke guy, but you kind of, you want, I'm trying to move with the last special. I tried to do a couple of much longer bits. I noticed that. And I'm trying to do a much longer bit now in the new one, in the new tour where I'm just trying to work a different muscle. I've got a fast ball and I respect the fact people come and see me and it's a service

industry, right? Someone's paid their money to come and see a show. I'm going to deliver, edgy one-liners for as many as you need. And then I want to be able to surprise them a little bit and move it a little bit and get better as a performer. I watched a special last night and I noticed, yeah, I noticed there were a couple of bits where you were making points where you, you know, you, you had the gags, but they were going, they were of a piece, that you were trying to get a longer piece.

All the jokes were there, but you were still trying to make certain points that were a little longer than you usually do. Yeah, I think it's, I'm trying to grow as a performer. I'm just trying to get a little bit better, trying to get outside my comfort zone. I think that thing of like being outside your comfort zone is a very good idea. I think also just not outside your comfort zone, but you are, you know, if your point of view is just doing, you know, edgy one liners, I mean, you can do whatever you want. I mean, if that's your style, but if at some point you want to engage a point of view,

it's a different thing. It is different thing. And you know what I've really enjoyed? Like the last couple of years, right? I wrote a book a couple of years ago, kind of a biography, but it was a bit self-helpy. It was like all the stuff that had helped me kind of a, you know, I'm into all that. I read all those books and I really liked the idea of like, yeah, that's my kind of thing of like, that's what got me out of my nine to five was all of those kinds of Eckhart Tolle things of like, this is it. I had a, um, you know, an experience with grief with grief where I kind of got a theory on grief where it's like,

grief is cumulative. Right? So when the- In terms of in life? In life, yeah. So my dog passed away recently and I was just in a puddle. I just couldn't. That's the worst. It's just awful. And it's because partly it links to everyone you've lost and partly it's about your own mortality. And that idea of like, yeah know, that old, um, it's think it's Confucius. Every man's got two lives and he second begins when he realizes he only has one. Right. And you go, okay, it's kind of a hack thing. You could have that on a pin cushion and sell it on Etsy.

Or you could twist it into a joke. It really hit me. You know, that thing of like, Oh, this is, you just do this now. Loss. Yeah. It reframes like outside of the lingual, what is that CP, what? Neurolinguistic programming. Neuro, NLP?

Yeah, that's it. Outside of NLP, you know, what grief does is it, emotionally and maybe not spiritually, but it shifts your perception of how fragile life is. You know, it's not, and there's no way around it. You know, there's that moment where you realize if someone you love or something you love gets lost or dies,

that, you know, it creates a whole, I don't know if you want to say soul, but it wakes up that part of you that makes you very present and very sad, but also you realize like, this is this is gonna happen. And the highest agency people I think I have ever come across are the dying. Like if you meet someone who's got six months to live or a year whatever they've they know they've got stage four and it's like okay this is it. Oh my god their tolerance for bullshit is is gone.

Why would you have it. But but also we're all dying. It's the brief, what's that lovely line about, it's a brief sliver of light between two oceans of darkness. This idea that before we were born, after we're dead, it's like this little, we get to die and we're the lucky ones. So now what? Are you constantly scrambling to,

were you depressed? What compelled you to become this person, to put this puzzle together in so many different ways? I got, I suffered a tiny bit with depression, not much. But what was the cathartic shift? Anxiety was a huge thing for me, huge problem with anxiety. When you were younger? Before comedy? No, kind of the last maybe... Yeah, in comedy, I think.

Slightly before comedy, it was... It wasn't depression. I think these words kind of get conflated. Uh-huh. Depression and what? Depression and sadness get conflated. Sure. And sadness is circumstantial. If you're sad, you're very lucky. Because proper depression, proper actual, okay, you need to take something because something's not right in your brain chemistry

Yes, I mean the worst it's the way like when someone tells you they're like, you know bipolar something go Oh my god, it's a heartbreak. It isn't what can you do the weight of it? It's just yeah But if you're sad if you go well, I've I've made some choices I need to take responsibility for this and yeah and someone's died and you go. This is my only shot This is it. I'm working for an oil company, what the fuck am I doing in my business? You were working for an oil company? I was working for Shell Oil.

Yeah. What? What was I? I was leading someone's life, I don't know what it was. It almost feels like waking up from a dream. Yeah. What was the process there? Where'd you grow up?

I grew up in a place called Slough, in and around Slough. So Irish immigrant parents, so first generation immigrant to the UK. Really? Yeah, so I was like, I was born in England, but I carry an Irish passport. And it's a weird thing. I'm very aware of who I am, but I'm also aware of how I'm perceived. And I think there's a weird thing where- I didn't know what to make of you.

Yeah. And I think there's a weird thing where... I didn't know what to make of you. Yeah, but if I talk about like, I don't know, being an immigrant or anxiety, people go, no, no, no, no, no, you seem fine. No, you seem like a British gentleman that went to a public school. And you go, that isn't me, but I'm aware of how I'm perceived in the world, but also who I am. But you have, you know, your stage persona is strong. And I felt when I first met you, I mean, I remember I tried to get you on the show before and I literally thought like, you know, like he's not, he's not going to talk about himself

in that way. In the way that I talk about. I don't think I was, I think when you, when you asked me very kindly to be on the show before, I'm ready for this at all. Okay. So I wasn't, I wasn't wrong. No, no, no. It's like, like that's my stage persona. Okay, so I wasn't off. No, you weren't wrong. No, no, no, it's like, that's my stage persona, that's what I do.

Yeah, the rest is mine. When you get interviewed, when you get interviewed on, I don't know, The Tonight Show or a chat show, it's a very different thing than this. And I'm really enjoying this. I think it's like, it's helping the comedy because you're kind of going,

well, I can make a couple of points. I was thinking age, 50, I think there's something about the weight of that and how that, I can make a couple of points. Yeah. That was the thing age 50. I think there's something about the weight of that and how that feels. It makes a bit more sense. But when I met you, I'm trying to think it must've been the first time I met you was probably in Edinburgh, like 2007. Yeah. Uh, and I was right after my divorce.

I was not having a good time. I think I met you with Morgan Murphy. Yeah. You were having a bad time. I think it's fair to say you were having a bad time. Like it's weird. I don't think your success has engendered one bit of envy by anyone else because it's so clear the the what you've had to go through to get to this. It's like keep pushing, Jimmy. I keep pushing.

Yeah, but it's the pathology. Yeah, to be Mark Maron. No one's going, yeah, I want some of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, sometimes you see someone on stage, you see Jerry Seinfeld on stage, you go, I wish I could have that. Yeah. And it looks so easy. Yes. Of course, you don't see the pathology there.

Yeah. But so now you feel more comfortable talking about it because maybe when I met you, because that's already, what is that, 15 years ago, 16 years ago? Were you in the pursuit of well-mindedness at that point? Yeah, no, I was kind of in the pursuit of it. And I think I'd made the first big shift. I think getting into comedy for me was at 25, I felt so old. I felt like- And this is when you were working at Shell?

Yeah, I felt like life had passed me by. I felt like, what am I doing? I was very well educated. Were you really fancy? Yeah, fancy education. But that thing of going, I don't really know what I'm I'm not I'm not happy Why'd you end up there? I think it was just like it was the same reason I ended up at the university It was like the line of least resistance. I'd never really made a decision I just on the next thing that you do but you were kind of you must have been a worker You must have focus you to where'd you go to school?

I went to Cambridge. That's fancy. Yeah, fancy. But no interest in comedy at that time. I mean, I liked it, I liked seeing it, but no, no interest, no idea that show business could be a job. What did your folks do?

Mother was a nurse, and my father was like, something in accounts. I don't know. Went to an office. I've told there's so many people that don't know what their fathers actually do. No, I mean, I'm, I'm literally no idea. The, it's a weird thing. Like that's always my, uh, I don't know what you feel about that.

That's always my go-to question for comedians, which of your parents were sick. Uh, and I didn't realize until years later that I was entirely enmeshed with my mother. I was incredibly close to my mother and was kind of a substitute, um, husband. And it was, uh... I got a little of that from very early on. Because my dad was, uh, you know, uh, out doing whatever. Yeah.

He was around, but he was a doctor, he was consumed, he was,, he was out there doing, I don't need to. Doing stuff. Yeah, but not present. But yeah, I guess I got enmeshed with her. But both of them were so selfish, I don't really see them as parents

as much as people I grew up with that had problems. You lived with a couple when you were younger. Yeah, yeah, I did. Me and my brother. Nice couple. No, they weren with a couple when you were younger. Yeah, yeah, I did. Me and my brother. Nice couple. They weren't that nice. They were difficult, but they meant well. But so wait, so you were meshed with your mother

and you feel like what was, what did that make you? Like what is your pathology in relation to that? How do you think that affected you? Well, I think I had a very tough time with women growing up. So I was like a virgin until I was like 26. I was really kind of quite like... Wow, that is quite like an ambitiously... Yeah, it's very unusual. I mean, it's kind of embarrassed about it, but it's like a very kind of shut down.

You know, I had loads of kind of loads of friends. I got on very well with people, but it's like it was just a real block. And then, yeah, I think that's just because I had a very close relationship with my dad. What about your dad? I haven't seen him in 25 years. How do you carry that? Very lightly. I think it's like that Al-Anon thing. You detach with love.

Oh, you do. So that's where you're at with it. Yeah. You detach with love. It's a lovely... Some of these things as well, like they sound very dime store wisdom, but there's something really lovely about that, that other people have been through it. If you can do it, yeah. You can, you can kind of go, look, I, I don't wish any ill, I wish you all the best. I can't have you in my life. No spite?

No. No. What happened? Why is he out? Ah, it's a... Yeah? Nah, I keep on getting sued. Oh. By him?

Yeah. I got, I, uh, I implied that he was a narcissist in my book and, uh, and, uh, there's like one line about him. I say he's, yeah. That's so fucked up. And, uh, and he sued me for calling him a narcissist, which strikes me as fairly narcissistic. Yeah. My dad did the same thing.

I wrote a book, I wrote a book and I was honest about him. He's bipolar and narcissistic, but he is part of my story and it upset him. And I called him up and he's like, you know, he thought it would get him in trouble somehow. And I said, well, what do you want? You want money? And he goes, yeah. And I go, how much? And he goes, yeah. And I go, how much?

And he goes, $100,000. I said, I'll give you five. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! And I did, but I'm okay with him now. Actually, Brennan again gave me the line on narcissism. Who? Neil Brennan. You know, when you have a narcissist in your life,

they have the disease, you have the symptoms. That's interesting. It's like, ah, they don't. He's done a lot of work on himself, old Neil. Yeah, he's pretty happy now. Dude, 10th kid of like an Irish drunk family, whew, not easy. Yeah.

So you did some Alan on, huh? A little bit, not too much. I mean, I really kind of went to one, read a lot around it and then was kind of embarrassed kind of went to one, read a lot around it, and then was kind of embarrassed about it, but like just read a lot about it. Was it a boozy thing? Did you grow up in boos?

No, no, not boos, not just like a, the language of that just made sense to me. Yeah, no, makes sense. And it was that thing where you go, it doesn't have to be your problem, it could be someone else's problem. Yeah. I didn't know that existed until like, yeah, you know.

No, me neither. You're dealing with it for years, and you go, oh, it's not someone else's problem. Yeah. I didn't know that existed until like, you know. No, me neither. You're dealing with it for years and you go, oh, it's not, alcoholics are anonymous, it's for the people of the families and loved ones. Yeah. Oh. They have to, yeah. Oh, I see.

Yeah, so they don't get dragged in, they don't become the disease. Yeah. Yeah. No, I didn't, I'm still codependent problems. It's still hard. It's still hard to detach and not think, you know, like, but it's so selfish too, that whole thing, codependency.

Selfish because? Well, I mean, if you're actively codependent, you know, you're assuming you have control and sometimes, you know, that feeling of trying to control somebody else or somebody else's feelings is what you live for. And if that's the case, you know, that's your sickness. Yeah, well, it's a weird sickness to have because you're sort of going, I mean, really when you think about what we do for a living, you know, you say, well, you can never

be in charge of anyone else's happiness. And you often hear that in therapy. And then you go, yeah, but I do that for a living. Yeah, I don't make it. No, to die, there's 2,000 people. I need to, I'm in charge of their happiness for two hours. So actually, it sort of is what I do. But we figured out a- I know you think it's not important, but who do you think is paying your bill?

We figured out a way around it that we can engage it in a professional way and then not do it a personal way. Well, I always think that thing about the sick parent thing is the thermostat on the room, like learning that early on. that pathology of like learning how to make things okay in the weird atmosphere house when someone gets home and you go, I'm going to make this all right. And it's- I used to do a bit about it, about my mom telling me to, my dad was, when he was depressed,

she would say, why don't you go upstairs and make your father laugh? You're the only one who can. Ooh, tough crowd, I tell ya. Oh, it's a, I mean, that's just, how old were you at that point? I was about in my early teens, probably, you know. Right. 12, 13. Yeah, well, he's got dementia now, so I'm dealing with a whole new person.

And not, it's entertaining at times. Right. I'm all right with him. I kind of let it go, you know. Yeah, I mean you feel like you've been through, I mean the wringer. I don't know, like I think what happened for me, and I don't know if this is what happened for you, is that if you look at the positive qualities

of both of them, and assess those within you, there's at least something to give them credit for or be grateful for. And then if you identify the negative ones that you also have, then you kind of have to rewire yourself, but you can't rewire them. And you can either do that with resentment or not. Like I'm still aggravated.

My father, he doesn't bother me. My mother, they're both very old and they're both still alive. But you know, after a certain point, even if you're angry, you gotta let it go. You know, as long as it's not killing you. Cause I got a friend who hasn't talked to his father in decades. And I don't think he's processed it.

And I think it hobbled him. It's weird. I suppose that thing of like, you can't have an easy life and a great character. You know, so you go through it and you go, well, whatever they gave you, whatever gifts you got from that, whoever you became, that thing of like gratitude as, I mean, I don't pray but I think having a gratitude practice where you just are always thinking about how grateful you are.

I got to try to do that. You do that? Yeah. And it's really like not just in this, not just, oh, well, I'm lucky because I get to do this job, but like, you know, you're healthy and you were born. I think we were born, maybe you and I of the same generation in the sweet spot. Yeah. Of like.

I'm 10 years older. Yeah. But in terms of the technology that came through the idea that, you know, the, the beginning of this comedy thing, this comedy thing, I think we've been born a hundred years ago, I guess we would have been four villains or something, but it's a different life. The idea that podcast technology came along at this time and became a thing, like there's so

many factors that you go, wow, it's like all these, all these things aligned. Yeah. It did. To make this. Yeah. For the, yeah, the cosmic timing of me finding the podcast medium, you know, that was a hell

Mary dude. I mean, I didn't know it would go anywhere and I wasn't in good shape. It worked out. You know, I didn't know it would go anywhere and I wasn't in good shape It worked out, you know, I had the right skill set at the right moment and the timing cosmic timing just worked out Well, then the thing of like what you do on this but also what you do in stand-up. Yeah strikes me that the Had a sort of describe. I suppose it's a bit like like in politics. There's like the Overton window Yeah of what you can and what you can't talk about in politics. What is acceptable policy and what isn't at any given time. And does that still hold? Well I think it does because you get like people on the far left or the far right or

someone like Bernie Sanders runs and he changes it or the Libertarians know that and they're never going to get elected but they change things. They start talking about drug legalization in the 70s and eventually it trickles through and the Democrats go, you know what, that's not a bad idea. Yeah. So in some cities it's turning out not to be a great idea, apparently. But you change the, what can and can't be talked about. I think the thing that you sort of did on this, but also in standup is like, okay, so being emotionally available.

Who was doing that in, it's a different- It's against our fundamental disposition professionally to do it so you know so yeah I meant to be hiding from some right that's right yes it's a fundamentally defensive position the comedic position yeah and I you know I did I didn't know how else to do it but I appreciate the I'll take that as a compliment yeah it's interesting it's it because it when you see the people coming up as well it like, if you kind of look at who's what are people doing, what are people trying to do? There's a real thing in the UK of like the Edinburgh festivals, like I know you had a bad experience, but it's kind of great people going up and doing hours and you know, putting on a full show as opposed to just like 20 minutes in club, they're putting on a full show and they're giving of themselves. Yeah. And there was kind of a cliche in it for a while.

People gave people a hard time for doing dead dad shows. What was the tragedy show. But actually, it kind of moved the whole thing forward, where it's kind of, I don't know, it feels like there's an interesting thing where stand-up meets kind of what we would have called a one-man show. Like a biographical... Yeah, I know. I've done those.

I did those years ago. In the late 90s, I did a one-person show, because it was sort of a thing in the 80s, you know, with performance artists I the format's kind of interesting, but I resented being attached to it. Although I did one I understand why people condescend the one-person show. I Kind of don't get it. I don't get because I sort of think comedy such a broad church Well, is it the idea that they go? Oh, this isn't a gag every 30 seconds, so it's not for me? Well, watch something else. No, I get that. I get that. But there, like, you know, I ride this line in my mind and I've done one person shows, I've done serious shit. I don't, I'm certainly not always funny

here, but there is something about the skill set of comedy as I learned it, you know, and the dues that I paid were specific. There was a way to pay your dues. And, you know, there's part of me that can't, I can't get around that. I honor that. Whether people see that I do or not, I honor that. Like, if I'm gonna work out even the most emotionally wrenching material,

I'm going to do it in a club. And I'm going to do it in 15-minute And I'm going to do it in 15 minute sets. Because I, if for some reason, and it's starting to fade a little bit, it's important for me that it works there. Where people don't know me necessarily. They're at the comedy store. I, I absolutely, I mean, I, I so buy this. I can see this now in Mike Bobiglia.

I see Mike does these beautiful one manman shows and they're fantastic and they're beautiful and they're like, it's like it's carved out of marble. But then if you know Mike and you hang with Mike, you know he's at the Comedy Cellar working out that five minutes and that five minute section so that every little bit of it works. Yeah, his craft goes in place man. Yeah, because you have to, you know, but you sugaring the pill and going, well, actually, this isn't a TED talk. Yeah. People are coming, they need to laugh.

And that thing of like the catharsis of saying, well, I live in a button down world and I'm not talking to my family and I'm not talking to my friends and people at the office and I feel like I'm self-censoring the whole time. And then you come and see a show where someone opens up and it's that cathartic experience. But also- You go and see incredibly edgy jokes and you go, oh, it's cathartic. That's right. Yeah.

But you also know with Mike and with some of the stuff I do as well that he's done that work. So no matter how deep it's going to be or potentially emotional, because he's taken it out there and worked it out in the bas Yeah, he he has control over it, right? You know like when I was working out the shit about Lindyne like I was doing it in in in small theaters To sort of move through it because I knew that it was not I'm not gonna have a handle on this So I'm not gonna bring it to a club But I'll stretch out and maybe cry in front of my audience who knows me and they know what I'm doing

until I figure out where I can find the level, where I can find the comedy in it, that's going to be consistent, right? So I was saying that's a very interesting thing of like when a dark sense of humor has a benefit. You know, when is this like sort of think like from a Darwinian evolutionary point of view, like why have a sense of humor? Well, A, it's like pattern recognition and it's linguistic skills. So it's, it's very useful in kind of practical terms. It's also good at disarming people before they hurt you.

It's, I mean, see your childhood for details. Yeah. But then, then it's also that thing if you go, it's the idea that you can kind of, you can express something in a dark joke and people can then use it on their worst day. That's exactly it. So people that get, everyone's going to deal with disease and death and losing money and losing jobs and terrible things happening and not getting into the school you want. And if you're if you don't like dark comedy if you if it's not for you and you're easily offended and I feel so bad for them. They have to white knuckle the whole of life. Yeah.

Where as you go on those days I have to think like the extreme example is is life is beautiful. The absolute extreme of someone in the camps in World War II having a sense of humor and that... I did a bit about that on my last special. There had to be hilarious people in Auschwitz. I mean, it was full of Jews. Yeah. It's a... Well, the language of stand-up is kind of linked to the...

It's not... It's the Tomek. Is the Tomek is the question and answer. The Talmud? Talmud it is it the helmet yes. But that question answer yeah yeah yeah he's kind of the language of the language of comedy was Jewish for a while stand up yeah. That's the heritage but but like talking about darkness you know cuz like a lot of times I don't see myself as dark but I am I know that and it's an emotional don't like the subject matter the one liner about something that stock is very easy to spot but I always thought you know you. And, and- Well, it's an emotional darkness as well. Like, the subject matter, the one-liner about something that's dark is very easy to spot. But I always thought, you know, you struck me as a dark person. Yeah, but it's a different kind of- No, but I mean, as a person, you were, as I'm learning now, you were a person that struggled

to have some sort of way of getting through life to where you were protecting yourself from something, whether it was anxiety or helplessness or whatever, I mean, that was the journey, right? Yeah, I mean, it's still the journey. It's still the thing. Were you religious ever? Yeah, very Catholic. I'd like a proper believer.

It was dug in. You had a hell in your head. Yes. Yes, I had a hell. I didn't get any of those stories until so much later, I didn't get what, because there's two kinds of idiot, right? There's people that believe the fairy stories, and there's people that think religion has no purpose.

And you kinda go, well, that's both extremes, a kind of, I think that's a- No, it definitely has a purpose. You gotta, I mean, you gotta, it definitely has a purpose. I don't fuck with belief as much as I fuck with religion. I understand why people need to believe. I get that. But I'm doing a line on stage now where I'm like,

if you believe in God, you'll fucking believe anything. So if you've already opened that door, you gotta be pretty vigilant. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Yeah, it's the, what's the great, it's GK Chesterton line, that way he said, if you don't believe in anything, you'll believe in anything. Interesting.

Getting what those stories are, it didn't come to me until much later in life, like God is the future. So God is meant to be sacrifice now for a better tomorrow. So that thing of like, I didn't get that at all, I didn't get what that was meant to be, I didn't get the idea of- That makes no sense to me. But the idea of like Yeah. So that thing of like, I didn't get that at all. I didn't get what that was meant to be. I didn't get the idea. That makes no sense to me. But the idea of like, it's kind of almost like religion is the marshmallow test. Do you want one now or two tomorrow? No, yeah, I get it. I mean, I never commented about it. I never, never got that. No, I never got kind of the bigger picture because it was just.

It's not a bigger picture, it's irrational. Well Catholicism is kind of the, I think the big mistake religion made in my humble opinion, and I hope the Vatican are listening. I think Vatican II was the mistake, because Vatican II was when they said, oh, let's translate this into local languages and everyone can understand it. No, the point of it was we didn't understand.

The point of it was it's a mystery. Keep it weird with the big robes. I mean, you go to Italy. And the incense and the whole thing. There's cathedrals in Italy just filled with dead wizards. Right. It's crazy. It's like so. But there is a mystery out there.

Totally. And we need something to, um, Pete Holmes gave me this great line. Mm. Uh, it's in his book. He was talking about, and it's that, I think it's the roadie from ACDC said this. Okay. He said, uh, yes, where I get all my wisdom from. He said, uh, uh, God is the name we give to the blanket. We throw over the mystery to give it shape.

Hmm. I really like, I heard that. I went, Oh yeah. And then Angus started a whole lot of Rosie. But then you, yeah. And you, uh, but then you go, whether that's, you know, for some people it's science or religion or whatever. Sure, whatever.

Their belief thing that they go, well, this is my... It's transference. Like you need to be feel part of something bigger than yourself to give your life definition in a way. And that can be standing in nature or children or whatever the thing is for you. But it's an incredibly important thing. We, you know, and this is another part of your special where it feels to me that you did, you know, fairly, you know, grounded point of view about religion through a series

of jokes that was a larger chunk than I'd seen you do before. Yeah, that was, it was interesting. It's very interesting doing that in North America, doing that, that bit about religion, which is it's good in the UK and it's edgy, you know, it's a bit's a bit edgy. Oh, well, we probably shouldn't have said that. That's a bit, but here it feels like it's that there's an excitement in the room. When you, when you say those things here, there's, it's a, I kind of hadn't noticed how much more, um, Christian America is. And it's actually when you get out to the, cause I spent a lot of time in New York and LA and I'd not got out to see the other cities. And you get out and you see it and you go, great, okay.

And no one seems to mind. I did this bit, I'm doing this bit now where I tell them, I said, this joke doesn't work really. But it's got, the logic is tight and I like doing it. And I say, I think Christianity at its core is a bit anti-Semitic. And I say, because like the core idea of Christianity is the only really good Jew is a dead Jew. Oh, it's a great joke.

It's a great joke. And it's working now. Those are those grooves you gotta make. There's a couple of jokes and you must know it. Where you believe in it and at first people are like, whoa. But if you keep getting more comfortable with it, it eventually will find its, it'll land. My theory on that is that you go, I love this line so much and the audience don't like it,

so you change it a little bit. And then they still don't like it and then you change it another bit and they still don't like it and then you change it another bit. And eventually it's a totally different line with a different kind of structure, but you can trace it back in your head to go, I never compromised on nothing. But ultimately it's that service thing, the great thing about our job is that I sometimes find, like sometimes I'll find a line through indigestion. Just like I'll pause in the wrong place because I'm, oh, what?

And it'll get a bigger laugh and you go, oh, that's interesting, I was doing that wrong the last year Yeah, yeah, let it wait a beat whatever especially with the with the joke to joke thing You know that timing is you know, it's all it's my theory is it's 92 beats a minute seems to be the right speed Really? Spoken word it seems to be for I spend a lot of time before I recorded the special I literally put on a playlist of 92 beats a minute and tried to get into that kind of groove. It just seems to be the right speed. What do you mean a playlist of 92 beats a minute?

You mean just a track? You just go on Spotify. Yeah, no, no, just on Spotify, you can just do a 92 beats a minute and it will just play you a bunch of songs that are in that. Really? Yeah, it's great.

So it's like... Where'd you get that number? I was chatting, my friend Amanda and I are working on a book about standup. And we started looking at stand up and we started looking at stand ups and kind of looking at where their emphasis was. And she's a jazz musician by training. And so we're kind of looking at it and going, oh, it does seem that it doesn't matter how

fast or slow someone's talking, they're hitting the beat at about that. And it seems that spoken word wise and the audience get into a rhythm. Huh. No, I get that. And she was like directing. She directed my last two live shows. Maybe you should just listen to a tell for an hour and see what you get. Yeah. I bet he's doing it though. I wonder. I bet he, but that thing of like going, you're looking at that kind of, when the audience

flag, what else is going on? Did the material get weaker after 45 minutes or did you get tired and you sped up or did you not fill in the gap? Necess in the necessary way. I think well when you're doing let's say for my stuff I could be doing almost exactly the same show like when I was getting ready for the hour Yes, you're doing an hour and she's come to see it a couple of times Yeah, you go. Well, it didn't work as well that night. What happened? Well, you sped up. You sped up. You didn't. So what was the other thing going on

that wasn't the lines, wasn't the audience? The frequency of the line. It's very meticulous. And it's interesting, you're so conscious of it. Well, the other thing I'm going through that I'd never really thought to do before was going through for joke types and just taking shit out.

Oh, you got to do that. Too many going to repeat yourself. Well, yeah, but that it's amazing. Actually, when I watch something, if I watch a standup and it could be a standup, I really like, and you go, it's a bit boring. Oh, they're just doing pullback reveals again and again. Yeah. They, they need, they do everything's a hook.

Everything's a hook. Everything's a hook. They need a jab. But it's funny about rhythm though, cause like a tell will even make noises to keep his rhythm going. I mean, it's he'll do a jab. But it's funny about rhythm though, because like a tell will even make noises to keep his rhythm going. I mean, it's he'll do a job. We have her and then I'll just go then like, like he knows his rhythm so well that sometimes

he'll just make noises. If you know, as well, sometimes if he he'll get a laugh and the line he won't have got the line right. Yeah. Because it's his timing is so fucking solid. Yeah. So I've read that before where I've delivered a punchline from the wrong joke. Two shows in a night.

But the timing was so perfect. Rickles made sense half the time. It was all timing. I mean, he would say things that made no sense at all. I played Vegas for the first time the other night and I was really like thinking about Don Rickles a lot. I'm kind of thinking that heritage thing of like, my god, what a life. Also in this new special, you do some extensive crowd work that goes places. You give a young man a life lesson.

I thought that was kind of, I mean, for me, that was a very, I kind of wrote that in the pandemic and it was that thing of someone said, oh, well, it's obvious. Consent is obvious. I think, yeah, it is to all of us, but to 17 year old boys, I think that thing of like going, I'm just going to state the obvious here. I'll make it as funny as I can. But it's kind of interesting of going, I'm not wrong about anything in that. It's just, it's a nice thing to hear it from, and they'll take it from me. Pete Slauson Right. Well, what's interesting about you is that,

because I put you in a place where you have a defined stage persona that does a thing. And you have your thing. And it's all edgy jokes, it's all shocking jokes that are beautifully written. But like in this special, I was surprised because back in the day, I didn't know if we would be able to have a conversation necessarily. Only because I didn't know if you ever got out from under that thing that you do. But, you know, you have opinions, and I thought, you know, we all had our Vax jokes, you know, at the time, and I thought your Vax joke, you know, engaging the audience in the way

you did was a very clever way to posit the idea, because I did something not the same, but similar about, like, you know, how many people with polio do we have? I mean, the idea of it, you know, in conversation with a guy who admits to being an anti-vaxxer The position is a good position. Yeah, it's slightly a straw man that I'm setting up in the guy Because it is that thing where I'm sort of going I'm taking Anti covid vaccine people and the anti-vax lunatics that don't like any fact, of course Well, which is it's it's a sleight of hand there where it's a bit unfair on the guy in the audience. Just, I know those people get upset.

No, I don't know if it's unfair because whatever differentiation they're making between vaccines is not really the issue. The issue is that we believe science at one point in time was in the benefit of public safety. And when it became a wedge issue, it became the government is using science to kill us. So it's a different, it's a point of view thing. So it's not really that much of a straw man. Yeah. Well, you know, I like to give them an out because the guys with the COVID thing, I can go, okay, well, that was a weird, I think we can all agree no one handled that

great. No, no one handled any of it great. It was a very tough time. But the idea of again, kind of doubling down on that, because they did one in the last one that upset them. So I thought I'll do another one. Yeah. I mean, that upset the anti-vaccines.

Well, but this one you engage somebody and there was a logic to it that they can't deny. All they could say is like, well, these vaccines are different and they're doing this other thing. Yeah. But it's again, it goes back to gratitude. It goes back to kind of going, oh, you know, these big pharmaceutical companies, they're out to get us. And you go, yeah, but as opposed to what? Like, remember, leeches, remember Spanish flu? Yeah,

how was, how was a bad business, wasn't it? Yeah. Now we didn't have any vaccines for that. Thank God. Everybody died. It's like, no one's celebrating that fact. No one's going, oh, yeah, young men dying in, in course, the reason it's called Spanish flu as well is because there was a war on. Yeah. There's a belief system at hand now that is kind of supplement driven and spite driven and false information driven where people just think that all you got to do is man up. Yeah. It's the, yeah, walk it off.

Walk it off. It is that weird thing as well where you go, it's people that don't want institutions. They don't want- That's right. It's the same, right. No, what you need is better institutions. That's right. You can't not have them.

They've just got to be good. Let me ask you about this situation though, because you're a person that has been taken to task publicly over jokes, right? And in Britain, and they were specific jokes about, I'm not even sure what... We could do a list, there's loads. Right, but there was not, at the time when some of it happened, there was no cancel culture per se,

there was just pushback, right? Well, there's a huge difference between cancel culture and criticism. Right. And criticism is absolutely fair game. I'm not for everyone. You know, I say in the special, jokes are like magnets. They attract some people and they repel some people. And that's kind of okay.

And some people don't like it and that's fine. The cancellation thing, when someone goes, not only did I not like it, I don't think he should be allowed to say that. But the grassroots kind of mob mentality of social media platforms to deny people work, to get people pushed out of the gig. Yeah. Well, that's, it strikes me as we're in quite an interesting position now in terms of podcasting and stand-up comedy, where you go, are we the only ones that are council-proof?

Because there's no shareholders. There's no- That's right. There's no one to kind of go, oh, well, you know, you can't say that. Now people can build their own show business. So you're not beholden to a corporate show business entity. Yeah. And the only question you have to ask yourself when you get canceled is who are you?

Right. And can you mean to say that? Did you misspeak? That's right. If you, if you're going to say something, can you bear the weight of the consequence? Is it worth it? There's no freedom you have the consequence is it worth it? There's no freedom of consequence and is it worth it? I think that thing of is it worth it is very important as well because how big a laugh something gets does matter

Sometimes you've got something right right really edgy jokes, and it kind of gets a yeah, okay. It's not worth it, right? That's just you've gone too far there. Is you know enough. That's right. That's coming back And you know no it's this really has to be worth it because this is this sensitive topic. I want to talk about it. I want to air it. I want people to talk about it. Or take the air out of it. Yeah. But it's got to be funny enough. It's got to be so funny if it's going to be that dark. But I thought that thing you said about, you know, and a lot of people, you know, of the

thing, the big issue is that, you know, this cancel culture has done wonders for people's career who stand up against the, whether it's real or it's not. The idea that there's a bunch of comics that are like, I'm anti-woke, what does that even mean? You know, if that's your whole angle, it's sort of a new hook. But if you step back and you go, okay, let's look at the numbers, let's look at the metrics here.

Who's selling tickets, comedy-wise? Who's being canceled? No one. It's like, what are you even talking about? But people like to say it because it's actually a good brand for certain people, for a certain audience. I think it's a very good brand. That thing of like going, it's not for everyone.

And being canceled is kind of a, it's a good experience. It's good in lots of ways. It's a good filter. It's a good filter on you. How so? It's a good filter on It's good in lots of ways. It's a good filter. It's a good filter on you. How so? It's a good filter on friends. Yeah. Who are your friends?

Who's actually a big lethal that this has happened to you? Who's throwing you under the bus? Who's making a comment about you? Who's tweeting something? And who's, okay. About your jokes. About the jokes. So it's that thing of you go,

I mean, you have to right size it as well when it happens. You have to say, look, I told a joke and some people didn't like it. That that's what's happened. But your joke in the special is really very concise and very funny. The one about so you know what, how did you phrase it when you got you were the give me the subject matter. What's the it's about. It's about being canceled. And he says, oh, so you admit that you know that. Oh, yeah. So it's the it's the next time I get canceled is my admit that you know that I say things that don't happen. Oh, yeah, yeah.

So it's the next time I get cancelled, it's my plan for the next time, which will be directly after this. It'll be, so the next time I get cancelled, I'm going to say, I'm sorry, and the people that I've upset will say, you don't really mean that apology. And I'll say, so you're saying I could say something and not mean it. Now you're getting it. It's very good. But it is that thing where you kind of go, yeah, I mean it. Now you're getting it.

It's very good. But it is that thing where you kind of go, yeah, I mean, these are all jokes. I mean, the idea in my last special, you know, because anti-vax people did get upset with me and you go, what you think I told 75 jokes, took a break to make a serious point about vaccines and then told, which everyone laughed at weirdly, and then told 75 more jokes. That seems like an odd way to get a point across. Yeah, but there was also the other point where you say that some of these people don't understand jokes. Yeah, I mean it's...

On both sides. Well, it's... But I think sometimes it's the idea that journalists do kind of a bad faith article about, he made this statement. Right. No, no, I didn't make a statement. I made a joke. And there's a very different thing. Yeah.

Yeah. But I mean, but you are sensitive to certain things like language changes. And even the way you handle pronouns, there was an empathy to it. You're not you're not just there are people that are literally like, fuck that. And you're you're bid, you know, even being an edgy comic, was a bit about tolerance. Yes. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think that thing about the idea

of it being a sacred cow that you can't talk about strikes me as ridiculous, but also, like, be a human being. Right. It's a joke, it's a piece of wordplay, and everyone can laugh together. That unifies us, we're all in this together. Yeah, I think as long as it's not mean-spirited and you're holding some line.

But intention is very important as well. It's all of it. If you're making a point about something, I sometimes don't know what people are doing on stage, when they're making a very serious point about something, you go, well, this might be the wrong medium. Where are the chuckle hut? Yeah, Neil's got a whole bit about,

why are they coming to the clowns as the moral arbiters of- Yeah, it's funny. It is. On the new one, yeah, crazy good. Yeah, good talking. I know you got other things to do. No, no, I mean, this is fantastic.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I like the special one, and I thought it did seem like, as you talked about earlier, that you are doing longer pieces about things, you know? And it's- I'm trying to get better. I'm just trying to get better. I think that thing as well,, you know, longer pieces about things, you know, and it's trying to get better. I'm trying, I'm just trying to get, I think that thing as well, if you go, how do you make this feel new after 25 years? But better is, but I think that there, you're not giving yourself enough credit

that, you know, better is one thing, but, you know, evolving a point of view is a real thing. You know, just being a guy who tells a certain type of joke, you know, that's, that's a performance, right? That's a character. But to engage a point of view with some consistency is, you know, that's personal growth. So you are getting better as a person. Yeah. Wow.

Well, I'm writing the new one now. There's a big chunk on mental health, which I think is quite interesting. What's, see, I watched Neil's the other night, and you know, I'm doing a bit about personal trauma that I think makes the same point, but I'm a guy who has to come from my experience. So it's not going to be like, I'm not, you know, pontificating about anything. But what's your angle?

My angle is, the bit is about how I think men need therapy. Every man in the room should be seen, seen a therapist once a week. Sure. Women don't need therapy. Women have got friends to talk to men have got friends. Sure.

We've got friends, but not to talk to men will do pretty much anything to avoid talking to their friends. Yeah. And that's the jumping off point. And then it gets into the whole thing of like the, and then I, I get to kind of, I think I'm funny enough in that bit.

I think it's working quite well that I think I have permission to make a point. Uh, about suicide, which is, you know, it's the things that affected so many people. And it's often seen as a thing that stands alone, not a symptom of a mental health crisis. And so it's just that simple line, the permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I like that, I like that idea, because like Neil's sort of poking fun at the sort of branding of trauma. Oh, the bit about World War II is just, it's phenomenal, it's crazy good. It's so good. Yeah, that's funny. But it is in a comedic way, a bit insensitive. You know, it's not like those guys came home

and they didn't talk about it and they just went about their lives in a healthy way. Half of them drank themselves to death, destroyed their families, created legacies of fucking nightmares for generations of people. Yeah, cause they didn't talk about it. You ever seen that documentary by Adam Curtis, the Mayfair set? No, I love him though.

Do you know him? No, I've never met him, but I mean he's an absolute. Holy shit. So those documentaries. What a fucking genius. So there's like, the Mayfair set's really worth watching. It's about these guys came back from World War II, totally traumatized. They were in the gambling dens of Mayfair and they were hanging out and they invented corporate

rating. So they're sitting around and they invented like, we're just kind of trying to come up with stuff to do to keep them occupied drinking right. Huge amounts gambling, huge amounts. And the first ever corporate raid was a, it's an orchard in the Northland.

It was an orchard owned by a family. Some financial advisor went, Oh, you should show this should sell the shares on the stock market. That'll make you a few quid. So the guys bought 51%. They didn't realize it could be taken from them. And then they built houses, chopped all the trees down, built houses, made a fortune and then just repeat and repeat and repeat. And kind of modern finance was built from these incredibly traumatized. Yeah. And, and not a great thing. No!

No, no, no. Pretty bad. That's the legacy of trauma. That's interesting. I was going to tell you before we go though... I think Neil has got the... he's got the trauma wings. I think he's allowed to poke fun at trauma. No, definitely.

He's a guy who's poking fun at trauma, but he's living trauma. He's like trauma personified. I know, I'm not meant to be promoting someone else's special, but crazy's living trauma. He's like trauma personified. I know. I'm not going to be promoting someone else's special, but crazy good is crazy good. It is good, yeah. I'm going to talk to him, I think, later this week about suicide, because I've made plenty of jokes about suicide. But did you know that one of the arguments for gun control is based on the British natural

gas that there was the idea, I read an article about this, there was a period, I don't know if it was in the 50s or what, there was a time in Britain where the gas that they were using for the stoves in Britain was highly toxic and if you turned the gas on, stuck your head in the oven, you'd be dead in a couple minutes.

Yeah, this is Sylvia Plath. Maybe, but they changed the gas. And the one they changed it to was a lot less toxic. So the suicide rates went down dramatically. So if you don't have the gun in the house, you're not going to decide to do that. Yeah. It's that moment. Right. Because you don't want to feel that feeling. You don't want to not feel anything ever again. Yeah. It's the perspective thing because you don't want to feel that feeling. You don't want to not feel anything ever again. Yeah. It's the perspective thing.

Right. It's that graduate thing you go. So if you've got to keep your heads in the oven and it's not happening quickly, you're going to cough and rethink it. I think Sylvia Plath nearly killed the guy in the flat downstairs. It's in Primrose Hill, the house. Oh, really? Because it had wooden floorboards and the gas leaked upstairs.

Okay. It must have been that toxic. Yeah, yeah. Super toxic. Well, they had to put smell in it as well. They had to put the smell of gas in the gas. Oh. Because it wasn't in there for a long time. You didn't know. Oh. Yeah, well, super toxic. Well, they had to put smell in it as well. They had to put the smell of gas in the gas. Ah. Because it wasn't in there for a long time.

You didn't know. Oh. Yeah, well, I just thought that was interesting that if you have time to rethink it, you might rethink it. Yeah. I had an idea of the gun control. I had an idea for gun control. I don't think it's a bit, but it's an idea.

Yeah. I think gun clubs. Sure. Okay. So you set up gun clubs. They have them. They're called paramilitary. No, no, but everyone that wants a gun, that's fine. You have to join up with a thousand other guys, and you can be in a gun club, and then there's collective responsibility.

Which means what? If there's a crime committed with your gun, or something bad happens with your gun, then everyone in the group gets fined, and so you have to check up on each other. So you go, it's kind of what the original bit, I think, is, if you read the thing in the Constitution, it strikes me that that's kind of in the spirit of it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that maybe you should hang out in America a little longer.

Do you think? I might get shot. No, I'm just saying that these gun clubs, they exist, but they have an agenda and it's not to monitor each other. Yeah. But if there was a, because they brought it in in Australia, right? I kind of think that thing of the future is here, but it's not evenly distributed.

There's great ideas around the world. Yeah. Just, I don't think the Australians might have used to take it, but they changed their gun laws and they said, right, if your gun is involved in a crime, you don't get a prison for that crime, but you get massive fines for your gun going missing. It's about gun responsibility

Yeah, and that collective responsibility of going and if people don't like my idea, what are they gonna do band together a protest? They've already formed the club. They're halfway there. Yeah, I don't know. I Appreciate the thing. I'm trying to help. I'm trying to help while I'm here. Yeah, and maybe that maybe that'll do it Maybe this will be the moment The good talk near Jimmy a pleasure. Take care Maybe that'll do it. Maybe this'll be the moment. Ha ha ha! Good talking to you, Jimmy. Pleasure, take care. ["Spring Day"] There you go. Definitely, that moved at a pretty fast clip. Jimmy's Netflix special, Jimmy Carr,

Natural Born Killer starts streaming tomorrow. Hang out for a second, folks. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions at Enterprise Mobility we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities. Because if your business is on the road we want to make sure it's on the road to success. Enterprise Mobility, moving you moves the world. Okay, look, for full Marin listeners, this week we have a bonus episode all about the

show that most directly made way for WTF, Break Room Live, a live streaming show with me and Sam Seder. The idea for Break room, I don't know who came up with. No, I know exactly how it happened. We, we had a day where we couldn't use that studio. Right. And we said, well, let's just shoot today's show in the kitchen. Right. Let's go in there.

And that one day was better than any of the other days we had done, because you were interacting with staff members as they came in to make their lunch and they're yeah and and so we just we knew it when the day was done we're like that's the show right like the the the the dynamic that went on in there today that's the show so we went and pitched that we should do this in the break room and it required a complete overhaul we had to redo the website we had We had to change everything that we had structured promotionally for this thing being called Marin V. Cedar. Now it's called Break Room Live.

But it was actually probably easier as a technical undertaking because all they had to do was run some cables from next door to the break room. That was it. We picked up and packed out every day. Yeah. I thought it was like, uh, I thought it was a brilliant idea. And the funny thing is, is that this show would be just par for the course. Now we could do it in the middle of the day and we'd do fine. It would get good numbers.

Yeah. Nowadays, lots of people do these things on YouTube every single day. To get that episode, plus all the bonus episodes we do for Full Mehr and subscribers, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click To get that episode plus all the bonus episodes we do for full I'm gonna play it. So So I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man

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I'm gonna be a good boy I'm gonna be a good boy I'm gonna be a good boy I'm gonna be a good boy Boomer lives, Monkey and La Fonda, Cat Angels everywhere.