WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1540 - Daniel Stern

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Daniel Stern made a radical decision in show business after achieving success and financial independence: He decided to stop. After culture-defining projects like Home Alone, The Wonder Years, City Slickers and more, Daniel tells Marc why he decided to devote more time to his family, farming, sculpture and public service, all based on the example set by his co-star Jack Palance. Daniel also explains why he wrote a memoir despite having no interest in selling it or making money off it. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain that's squarespace.com slash WTF offer code WTF Yes Yes Yes. Block the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nix? How's it going? So much is happening all the time. Not necessarily right in my immediate environment, but everywhere else there are things happening.

Daniel Stern is on the show today. Now, Daniel Stern, I don't know what age you are or who you are, but you know him. Obviously everyone knows him from Home Alone, The Wonder Years, City Swickers. But for me, because of my age, I think, Everyone knows him from Home Alone, The Wonder Years, City Swickers. But for me, because of my age, I think, it was Diner and Breaking Away. Diner was a very important movie to me. I can't even fully explain why.

Maybe it was the year it came out. Maybe it was just it resonated with me, but Diner just fucking blew my mind. I can't even explain it. Maybe it was the camaraderie of the guys, the humor, the acting. I mean, it was early Mickey Rourke. Paul Reiser was like a kid. Kevin Bacon, Gutenberg, Ellen Barkin, but it was Levenson's film, but it was it really had an impact on me

And I'll talk about that a bit in a second. I think what's more important to address is I got to go to Vancouver today For the first little chunk. I'm gonna go back and forth quite a bit for this acting job and last night or Saturday night massive panic attack I I can't even remember the last time I had like I had the panic you know kind of overflow like that I mean look there's always a little bit of panic but I live with it and I've adjusted to it and it's just part of the frequency I exist on, I think.

Maybe I don't give myself enough credit, I don't know. But I do know when I can't sleep and I do know when my brain fucking just goes, I mean, it was just full, it was on fire. It was like one of these things where, okay, I'm trying to sleep fine. Cats are being a little crazy, fine, kids over, but I just couldn't, it was almost like cocaine sleep.

My heart was pounding, I was driving her crazy, she went and slept in the other room. I had to lock the cats out. And I was just like tossing and turning like that kind of thing where you're kind of trying to level off your heart rate. You're trying to find some sort of portal to sleep. You know, it's weird when you can't sleep.

And usually I've noticed that when you are falling asleep, your brain kind of picks a thing that it kind of goes off on. Like something that's outside of you, you know, kind of, I don't know, you start with thinking about something and then all of a sudden, you know, it becomes a dream zone and you're sleeping.

The next thing you know, couldn't fucking lock on to anything. Anything I was trying to lock onto to distract myself at doing a serenity prayer over and over again, which is something I learned many years ago, just kind of a, like a counting sheep business. I did some sort of positive affirmation business, but man, it was like altered states, the movie. My bed became this isolation tank,

and I was in this meditative zone, but it wasn't really, it was that zone where you're not're not sleeping but your brain's not new doing anything so you're just kind of like moving through some murky kind of a galactic world of shapes and colors and you're kind of like you know making anyway I do I'm just sort of like is that a face what is that is that like you know where am I but there's movement you're so, it's so self-conscious that there's no way you're gonna get to sleep in that. You're just trying to fool your brain that you're asleep.

And then it just started to go, man. And then all the stuff started to come up. It was like altered states, but I didn't make it all the way back to monkey. I didn't make it all the way back to primal man. I made it back to like maybe an eight year old me and just the amount of discomfort and awkwardness that I felt all the way until that night. It was just like, it was like, not a Rolodex, it was like a montage of embarrassing, traumatic moments of me trying to kind of put together enough armor

to get through the fucking world. And then at the end of it, after I go through all of these fucking memories, then I'm just sort of like this raw blob of self, and I'm kind of like like I can't do anything. I'm just, it's all a fake. I'm really like, I don't think I'm older than 10. I, you know, I'm scared to go.

I'm scared I'm going to suck. I'm scared I don't know how to do this anymore. I don't think I ever knew how to do it, this acting business or anything. And I just stripped it all down. And then I kind of ran around, not as primal man, not violent, just as a panicky, scared, on the verge of tears, like eight-year-old. Not great to be back there, not something I wanted to revisit,

but that's where I went. And then somehow or another, like I knew, like I've been been through this stuff before I've been through this stuff on drugs, you know where you can't sleep I've been through it like just naturally too much caffeine or whatever, but this was really just pure panic and fear of The work of the responsibility of what I had to do. Am I good enough? Am I a fraud? Do I really know how to do this? Do I know this character enough. Is it gonna be okay? It's gonna be like, oh my god Just uh, you know on the edge of tears eight year old mark

Sitting in his room in his grown-ass man body Mad at his cats mad. He can't sleep, but also just tweaked the fuck out. Full on. My breathing didn't get bad, like I didn't hyperventilate or anything, and I was able to maintain and lower my heart rate. According to my Whoop app, which I no longer have any faith in, I got a good night's sleep. Yeah, that it's over for me in the Whoop app. Because it was not a good night's sleep. Maybe I got into some meditative state, but I finally found some sort of narrative that got me into sleep.

And I'm trying to remember what it was. And I really think it was like filling up wheelbarrows and buckets with dirt and then just emptying them that I don't know where that came from or why but none of the other narratives were working there was no thing I could think about that wasn't going to cause me more panic what an ordeal one night I'm in Vancouver on Friday June 21st at the Vogue theater then I'm in Seattle on Saturday June 22nd at the Moore theater in the fall. I'm coming to Tucson, Phoenix, Oklahoma city, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio,

Boulder, Colorado, Joliet, Illinois, Skokie, Illinois, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sacramento, Napa, California. This is all assuming that, you assuming that the country will be intact. Look, if I cancel because of state borders or civil war type skirmishes, if I cancel again, I think we'll all understand. To get all my dates, including the ones from the summer that I need to reschedule, go to WTFpod.com slash tour.

Daniel Stern is here. Now, it's a weird thing when you build a relationship with an actor, because Home Alone was a little, I was a little old for it, but because of Diner and because of Breaking Away, those guys who are in both of those movies, you know, they're kind of wired into me, man.

I mean, they're definitely wired into my emotional being. It was in 1982 that came out. I don't know what date it would have been in 1982. I don't know. So I was just at a high school in my freshman year of college, but it just kind of blew my mind. And that was, you know, after seeing Paul Reiser

and that I thought he was the funniest guy in the world, which is kind of wild. And that's when I went to when it was just before that, I'd seen Paul Reiser in diner. And I went to the comic strip from college, you know, to go see some comedy. And he was just sitting there by himself. That was that moment where I was like,

oh man, I love diner, I'm gonna talk to him. I said, I wanna do comedy, and he's like, and I said, how do I do it? He's like, I don't know, you just gotta do it. So, yeah, I don't know if I would have said that to a young comic, but you can't say much else. But, and I can't say that like, well, that's the thing that turned me.

Thanks to Paul Reiser's words of wisdom, I am now a comedian, but I do remember being thoroughly impressed with his timing and his humor in that movie. And I, so when Daniel Stern became, you know, an opportunity to talk to, I was like, of course. And now he's like this guy, you know, he's like this, you know, I was like, of course. And now he's like this guy, he's like this, he's not that old, but he's had quite a life and he's been in a lot of things. He is 66 years old.

Only six years older than me? That's crazy. That is the other thing that's at the core of a lot of this sort of anxiety is like this acknowledgement and realization that like all of a sudden I'm older than everybody. I mean, that's what happens at 60. Because I think, you know, between like 40 and 60,

you're all kind of in the same world, the same community, like comics and everybody you know. And then it's like when you hit 60 and all of a sudden you're seeing people's age you're like what how are how are you that much younger than me or what you're only six years older than me it's fucking crazy I remember seeing you when I was a kid but I really wasn't times getting weird man that's all but all right. I hope you're all right. Are you all right? Is everything good?

A lot of good conversations coming up. We've got a lot of good talks in the can. And this one with Daniel was really kind of beautiful. It was great. Because there are certain personalities, and I find this all the way through doing this show, that some of the assumptions I make about people based on their work are not wrong.

And when you feel like you know somebody, you probably know a bit of them if they're out there in public doing things. You probably know enough of them to connect with them. And that usually turns out to be true. It's a rare thing where someone comes up here and like, I kind of know this guy from the thing. And I'm like, oh my God,

this guy is completely different than I thought. He was not, but he was a lot more. Good guy, reflective, has had kind of a great life, which is nice. It's nice. Enjoy this. His book, Home and Alone, comes out tomorrow, it's nice. Enjoy this, his book, Home and Alone, comes out tomorrow, May 21st,

you can get it wherever you get books. Great guy. Everyone knows therapy is great for solving problems, but getting therapy has its own problems too, like finding the right therapist, fitting into their schedule, and of course, the cost. Well, BetterHelp can solve those problems. It's totally online and built around your schedule. It's surprisingly affordable too. Connect with a credentialed

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with lightning fast speeds. And when their customer service says, we understand, they do too. So they make sure to deliver reliable internet with lightning fast speeds and when their customer service says we understand they mean it. Visit oxio.ca for internet from a provider that actually gives a damn and use the promo code WTFmark at checkout to get your first month free. That's oxio.ca promo code WTF MARC. Pull that in. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I've never done a podcast. You've done radio though, haven't you? Yeah, a long time ago.

I don't do anything. Yeah. I don't. But you look radio though, haven't you? Yeah, a long time ago. I don't do anything. Yeah. But you look well. Well, thank you. So do you. You must be like... What? ...traveling all the fucking...

Do you go out and... I did. Yeah, I just got back. When I'm touring, I do travel. As I get older, it's something I tend to... I don't know if I complain about it, but I'm surprised that, you know, like I just did Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago, and Minneapolis in a row. Yeah, oh, he is right.

But, you know, I don't know, man. I think like, well, it's just, I'm not really doing that much during the day. How tired could you get? But you get tired. Yeah, and the travel and the, that's why I don't do anything anymore. Just cause I...

How long have you not done anything, Daniel? Are we on? Sure. Okay. How long have I not done anything? I've tried to do nothing for about 25 years, 20 years. I tried, I really tried to, I hit a point where I realized I had made enough money that I could not hustle and made myself kind of stop.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's sort of my dream and I think I'm there, but I mean, I don't like, I don't have a family. Right. And you know, and I got all your music here but I mean, I don't like, I don't have a family. Right. And you know, and I got all your music here. I mean, I got music, I got cats, I got friends and stuff. But there does, you know, if you're brought up, I think with a certain mindset where you're like,

aren't we working towards stopping, right? Right. But then like, what is stopping me? Like, cause I'm self-employed. Right. I mean, you did, you did a lot of acting and that's different because you know, you're, you're, you're on, you're in a trailer half the day, you

know, and you're doing that whole thing. But me, you know, I do stand up, I do this and it's, when you're self-employed, it all feels like nothing. Right. Exactly. But acting's a little different because you got to.

Well, and acting, you know, that's what, that's the thing. I was wasting so much freaking time on it. Oh dude, yeah, I can't imagine. Just trailer time alone. You get, you know wasting so much freaking time on it. Oh dude, I can't imagine. Just trailer time alone. Trailer and hotel. Right, and it's like you don't, it's not that you could be changing the world necessarily, but you could certainly be doing something else.

Yeah, yeah, and I had little kids at the time and then I'm like on the phone with them trying to be like, how's it going? Fine. Right. And there was no FaceTime, no Zoom? No. And they were boring as shit on the phone. And I was like, what did you do today?

Well, I said my lines and I just... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it exciting? Yeah. But it actually opened up, making myself stop made me find other things to do and other passions and other ways of spending my time that I just couldn't even conceive. Because I've always been work-oriented, you know? I mean, like, have to be productive.

What, where'd you grow up? I grew up in Maryland, in Bethesda, Maryland. Really? Yeah. And what'd your family, what business were they in? My dad's a social worker, was a social worker. My mom was a teacher. Wow, that's like the noble Jewish-

Yeah, exactly. Civic responsibility jobs. Exactly. And I was like, why are you so... When my mother, it was wonderful. When my mother first saw, I was a shy kid and then I ended up in a play. My mother said, that was so sad to see you up there.

That you need to get up in front of people like this and show off, what is that about? Really? And the whole showbiz, it was, my sister was a lawyer, like a labor lawyer. Already? She was moving towards that, but it was...

What's the age difference between all the siblings? Two between her and me. She's older? Yeah. And then my brother's six years littler than me. Oh, that's a big one. Yeah. Yeah.

So she couldn't, she thought you, it wasn't humble. Yeah. And the whole thing didn't have a... Did you tell her like, maybe if you guys had loved me more? That's what she said. I said, it's not that. It's cause David Rosenthal's getting all the fucking girls. And you know. David Rosenthal, that guy. What happened to David Rosenthal?

David has a good voiceover career. Oh, he does? Yeah. Yeah. So he stayed in the game. Oh, he does? Yeah. He stayed in the game. Yeah, he did. From high school. He was super talented. He's out here.

Yeah, I think he was up in San Francisco working in that video world. Oh, you remain friends with him. I do. Well, that's great. How long have you known him? Since second grade, third grade, fourth grade? Fifth. Isn't that crazy?

It's weird, because I have a friend from Hebrew school, and he's my oldest friend. And I don't talk to him all the time, but I've seen him more lately, because I go back to New Mexico where I grew up. But there is that bond built among Jews that... And the Hebrew school thing is the rite of passage, you know? Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's a different... It's like, I don't want wanna say secret society, I don't wanna feed the machine, but there is something about Jewish kids. Well also, yeah, like, familiarity. Was there a lot of Jews in New Mexico?

Yeah, many got out there, they ran away from the East Coast. I mean, it wasn't huge, but I mean, right now, when I was growing up, there was a conservative temple, there was a reform temple, and I think there's a Chabad there now, but they're everywhere. Chabad, yeah. There's a Chabad here in Glendale, and I'm like, who's going there?

I just drive by it when I go hike, and it's just, it never looks like there's anyone in the parking lot, and there's a security guard out front. Exactly. I don't know what that whole thing is about. My dad used to go pester the Chabad in New Mexico because he had nothing better to do. He'd just go out there and argue with the rabbi for no reason. Exactly. But anyway-

That's a good shoe. Yeah. All right. So you're there, you do your play, you're a shy kid because believe it or not, but we'll get there. But I was a big fan, a big fan of you. I felt like Diner somehow changed my life in a way. It's kind of interesting.

So now your parents, they're politically active people or what do they do? Just regular... Yeah, pretty, you know, like that was the thing with the Jewish thing as a kid was that it was DC, you know, right outside DC in the 60s. So the kids who were teaching Hebrew school, college kids, active, go and go on a peace march, trying to make an understanding the relevancy of what that Jewish thing was about.

You remember Nixon and whatnot? Oh yeah. Yeah. I, I was delivering the Washington Post through the whole, so I got to read the Bernstein, Woodward and Bernstein stuff- Oh, in real time?

... at four o'clock in the morning before I could- And you were reading that? How old were you? You were interested in that? You were brought up to be interested in that? Yeah, yeah. Well, it was DC. It was like I was a little hippie and my hair was down to the middle of my back.

Oh, right, right. And I was, you know, it was the 60s. That was what I wanted to be. A hippie? Yeah. Yeah, I know. I mean, you're six years older than me, so I caught the crashing wave of it. Right.

And I was late too, to it too. You know, I mean, the kids like the... Because you were born in what, 57? Yeah. So, I didn't... You know, I was before the draft, but the kids older than us were getting drafted. So, you knew kids in the neighborhood who went or... Yeah, went off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but that's a heavy time, man. It was. It's a heavy time to be a pre-teen teen. It was. A lot of shit going on. It was a wonderful time, you know? Music, righteousness. And the comedy.

Oh yeah. The comedy that was starting to bubble up. You gravitated towards it? I loved it. I loved it. I mean, just as a... There was no conception of show business. Sure, sure. Yeah.

Just like, I love to laugh at everything from, you know, Get Smart, Smothers Brothers, you know. Smothers Brothers. I mean, it was all... Provocative stuff. ...and the music, you know, and George Carlin was coming out. Yeah, Robert Klein. Robert Klein.

Child of the 50s. Big record. I probably have it memorized. Oh really, he was your guy, huh? All of them. Yeah, yeah. The albums were, you know, the Bill Cosby albums. Yeah. I mean, that was, you just played them over and over.

Little late for Lenny Bruce, probably. A little bit. And he was a little dense. Yeah, a little too, I mean, yeah, he was too intellectual for my speed. Like you remember Jonathan Winters and that kind of stuff? On the floor with Jonathan Winters, you know. So you guys had all the records at home?

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and Dick Van Dyke and I mean, I just- He lives by you, do you live by Dick Van Dyke? I used to live by Dick Van Dyke. Oh, you don't live out there anymore? In Malibu. Yeah. But I don't live there anymore, no. Oh, really?

You still on the West Coast? Yeah, I live out towards Ventura. Oh, okay. So I got out of, like once I started back in way... It was a money saving thing? No, no. Was it a fire thing? No, it was a people thing.

Malibu was a beautiful place to raise the kids when we first got here. But as it developed into what Malibu is now and the mansions going up, you know, and the attitude. So you were there, it was still kind of a little rural and funky. Yeah, it was beautiful. Dylan was still out there.

Yeah, you know, and just, you know, I was just a small town. It was a real, actual small town that I could raise the kids. They rode their bike to school. You know, I coached the baseball team. We did all the regular stuff. Yeah. And but it just sort of, you know, I was there 25 years or something,

and it changed. And you know, a lot of, you know, I was there 25 years or something and it changed to, and it, you know, a lot of great things happened there, but I guess got claustrophobic. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I don't like that. Yeah. So you're riding on your bike delivering papers? I was walking, I had a baby, the guy who gave me the paper route gave me a baby carriage

that I carried the papers. I had a baby carriage in the double, the front and the back. Right. People knew you. Saw you coming. No, it was four o'clock in the frigging morning. And you're throwing papers on porches. No, got to put them in the door.

Oh, it's the Washington post. You're still, you're still mad about it. You know, I was writing this book thing, you know, and had to like go into it. I realized like, yeah, that was like, I was in the child labor forced market there cause I was making, you know, and then I had to pay for the papers. Yeah, but that's one of those jobs

where you learn the importance of work. I can't imagine your parents were like, you're not getting any money. Right. You gotta go out there and do this They do that. Yeah Go learn how to be part of the proletariat to make money make your own way social works interesting though So your old man was a he never got into a private practice a therapy practice. No, no, he was a work Yeah, he was more he was like assistant secretary at HEW.

So he was- What's that? Health, education, welfare. Okay. It turned into Health and Human Services now, I think they named it or something. But he was developing, he was called to service by John Kennedy and moved us there and was developing programs to for juvenile delinquency and keeping kids out of prison and things like that.

So he was kind of, I mean, he started at Jewish community centers as an organizer and then sort of went into the government part of it. It wasn't the social work of the therapy kind. It was more of that. Oh, it was more developmental policy. Policy and social justice. Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. And where'd they come from originally? New York. Philly. Oh, from Philly. Philly Jews. Yeah, Philly Jews. Philly's heavy.

You got people there still? Probably, but my grandparents, I mean, my grandparents, they're all gone. Yeah, of course, yeah. Your folks gone too? My dad passed, my mom is with, she lives in our guest house. Oh, that's nice of you. Yeah, I live with my mother.

Who would have thought it? It all comes full circle, buddy. Do you have, are your parents? They're around, but they're not, I'm not moving them in. But I think for the kids it's good, right You know, the kids are my kids are gone. My son is turning 42. That's crazy, isn't it? Yeah 40 friggin to yeah, so he's like this grown-ass old man. He really is, you know, so I'm a grandpa like six times Wow Yeah, so it's a different life.

So all right, so after the play, so like what makes you decide to commit to the acting racket? You know, I really had no other option. I mean, I dropped out of high school. I couldn't read. I was a dyslexic kid. But you didn't know that or what? No, I knew it.

I was a good artist. I did painting and sculpture as a kid and I did the plays and I was in the choir and everything like that. So you're an art guy. Completely, and sports. And so, yeah, I wasn't going to get into college and I had gotten, after I did a little play, then I got the lead part in the plays, you know, and I got an identity that way.

And stumbled into a crazy apprenticeship one summer after, you know, when I was 17, where I got the New York actors and I had a little part in the play and they said, you should move up to New York. And I said, okay. And that was it. And you were 18? I was 17 when I went up, yeah.

And your parents were like, okay? Yeah. Cause they just wanted you to do what you wanted to do. No, they wanted me to get out of the house They just said when you're 18, yeah, we know you're not going to college But one way or the other you're not living here really but were they supportive of your of your no, not particularly I mean not unsupportive just you know, I've been bred to be an independent person my whole life. So they They and I appreciate that, you know?

Yeah. But they, yeah, they said, go, go do your thing. So what was the experience in New York at that time? What are we talking, like, 1975? 75. All right. So, you know, second generation Method people, some of the first generation acting teachers were still there. Yeah. I, I, I was not like... Doing that.

I was not. Yeah. I took a class with a great teacher, Austin Pendleton. I don't know if you know Austin. But then Austin gave me a job. What was the school? HB Studios. Yeah. A lot of people went to there. Yeah. It was great. But then Austin gave me a part in a play he was directing and was like, all right, well, I don't need acting class anymore. Because I wasn't like, I couldn't,

I still can't read a Shakespeare play. I'm not a classic, classically trained actor and I don't have that passion for the literature of it. I enjoy the storytelling part of it, you know, I was good at that, I was, I could emote my feelings or be, you know, whatever, but it wasn't, I wasn't gonna be like a Yale train or anything like that.

So I got a gig right out of the acting class. I guess they needed kids. I guess it was sort of a benefit to be a kid that had some sort of natural chops. Right, because I had worked for absolutely nothing and do a lot, you know, on the plays, I was not only... You remember the play? Benito Serino. I played the soldier. Yeah.

Aye, aye, sir. Yeah. You know, but it was... Do you remember the actor Roscoe Lee Brown? Yeah. So Roscoe was in it and, you know, and my... Well, he's one of those guys that talks like this, right? Beautiful. I mean, and so well trained in that voice. And when my mom came and saw the play

and like Roscoe told her I was a good actor and it was like, okay. Oh yeah. I got a stamp of approval there. Oh, that's good. That's helpful. Funny, yeah. And yeah, just kinda.

So you're kicking around the theater scene in New York? Yeah, for about 12 years or something. Really? Yeah. So like who was around? I mean, do you have contemporaries that are still in New York? Yeah. Yeah, for about 12 years or something. Really? Yeah. So like who was around? I mean, do you have contemporaries that are still in the racket? Oh yeah.

John Heard was, I mean, Heard took me in when I first, the first day I got there. His roommate. John Heard. Yeah. He's intense, he was. He was, he's gone. Yeah.

Christopher Curry, Bruce McGill, John Goodman was in the crowd. Yeah. Yeah, just a bunch of theater rats. Wow, you wereill, John Goodman was in the crowd. Yeah. Yeah, just a bunch of theater rats. Wow, you were roommates with John Heard. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, John, I mean, the roommates, I slept on the sofa. They had their apartment. Were they older than you or no? Oh yeah, John was 15 years old. I was the puppy. Cause he was kind of hardcore, wasn't he? Yeah, so fucking fun.

Oh, I got to run with the big boys. Who would I talk to? Was he married to Melissa Leo at some point? Yes. Yeah, and Margot Kidder. Wow. For about a week. Wow, Margot, these are intense women.

And that's a diplomatic word. Yeah, and John was just a gem. I love's a diplomatic word. Yeah. John was just a gem. I love him and miss him. Yeah. No, it was a wonderful frigging time. It was, New York was a little dangerous. Were you there when he got cutters away? Yeah.

Man. Yeah. What a fucking movie. Well, he was the first guy in the crowd to get in a movie. So like, you know, everybody... Was it that movie? No, it was Between the Lines and then Chili Scenes of Winter. He got a couple of Joan Micklin Silver films, like these small films, and kept moving up.

But John was, you know, John had a little money in his pocket. He bought us all food and things like that. But it was also watching... I had no idea about even being in a movie. Right. That was... You were just sort of, I'm gonna do plays. Exactly. I'm gonna be an actor and I...

And you're doing a lot of plays? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I did a lot. I mean... Like off-Broadway stuff, weird stuff? Yeah, off-Broadway. A couple of weird ones. And then I got into one of the first things they did at Manhattan Theater Club.

And then I replaced Malkovich in True West. There was a legendary production when John sort of hit the big time. You know, dude, I saw you in True West. But I felt like that was after some movies. I'd done a few movies by then, yeah. So you saw me in True West. I did. Really?

But I went and looked it up, because I remembered yesterday, because I knew I was going to talk to you, and I knew I had a very sort of in my mind personal relationship with at least a couple of the guys in Diner in my mind. Oh, really? And. Oh, wait. And, you know, I'd seen Breaking Away, and I think those were the two that were out. And then when I... It must have been... I must have been in my first year of college or something.

I don't know. I'd gone to New York to see you in True West. Oh, man. But when I looked it up, it said that Tim Matheson played opposite of you. But I don't think he was there the night that I saw you. The night I saw you, I didn't know the guy who was one of the first, the originator of the role, right?

Well, Gary Sinise originated the role, so I did it with Gary for a while. And then Tim was gonna come in, but he got a job or something. So I did it with Jerry Burns, the understudy, for about, and we had a fucking blast. That must've been who I saw you with, at the Cherry Lane, right? At the Cherry Lane. And Jerry and I were like wild animals by the, you know. For about and we had a fucking blast that must have been who I saw you with and that's sherry lane

right sherry lane and Jerry and I were like wild animals by the you know I mean he was so fun then Tim came in and I was already like I'd been in the play like three months and Tim finally got out of his movie and came to the show and he joined the play and I He he was like you're beating me up way too much. Like you're hurting me. And I said, you know, I'm sorry. Like that's the, two days later, I showed up to the play

and there was two security guards there and I'd been fired. And so I only did the play with Tim like four times but then Tim didn't want me doing the play because I was, and he, you know, and I was probably out of control, but I always wore it as a badge of honor that they had security people. Because your Lee was too tough.

I was, I was a, I was a tough mother fucker. Yeah. Well, I mean, such a great part. Did you see it with Malkovich? Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine that. I mean, it must've been amazing.

You know, when I went, when they called me and said I, I, they'd asked me to be in the play. Yeah. I went to the first day of rehearsal. I thought I was playing the other part. What's that, Austin? Austin. Yeah.

Because I thought, well, I'm not going to play that part. Yeah. I thought I'm going to be the intellectual brother, you know. The writer. The writer. And sure enough, like, I was playing that part. What a mindfuck that was. Well, I mean, that's enough, like I was playing that part. What a mind fuck that was. Well, I mean, that's why I think I wanted to see you.

I was like, after watching Breaking Away and I think Diner was out. And it must've been that same year. Probably, probably. Yeah, and I was like, how's this guy gonna do that? I wondered the same thing. But I remember you did a great job. Well, thank you.

I mean, because like, you know, however anybody's going to interpret Lee as, you know, either a real guy or not a real guy or what it means to be out there on the edge. Right. And then come in to kind of blow your brother's world up. Exactly. You know, because I always thought of you as slightly goofy. You know, I, yeah, it really was one of the first parts. It changed me as an actor to understand how to live inside a character like that.

And also to access that anger. That anger and the humor. Like it was rip roaring fucking laughs and that thing. And it's like, you can get laughs that anger. That anger and the humor. Like it was rip roaring fucking laughs in that thing. And it's like, you can get laughs that way. That was a whole different way than the humble, shy kid I was playing in a regular way. It was like a whole different gear and really, really just was so thrilling

and yeah, just expanding for my own self. Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, and also your skillset, my own self-image. Yeah, sure. I mean, and also your skillset, right? Yeah, completely. Like the thing I remember about that play though that I thought was so mind-blowing in my early sort of intellectual sort of aspirations was that when you do the toast,

the entire theater smells like toast you know and it was it was just other element that was you know sensory exactly and it changes the way you know you think in that host absolutely a hundred percent mark like you know and and and acting in it like not only I drank a six pack of beer every show. Two shows on Friday and Saturday. I'll see your shit face by the second show. No, no, it was just pumping through me. I, you know, I could drink a whole six pack of beer.

Yeah. And not feel it. And because I was in the, it was, that sensory, the realities of those things were completely different. And that theater is so intimate, you know? Right, you're right. It was a big deal, man. But that was after, so like, so you're just kicking around New York, how do you get breaking

away because, you know, as this, you know, I mean, you're, you know, a kind of awkward Jewish kid from the East Coast and you're going to play this, you know, Indiana townie. I mean, how did that happen? Pete Slauson It… Peter Yates was the director. Pete down at HB, I met my wife in that place. And then I got an agent and she sent me out. So I'd had like two auditions for a movie. And I went to that audition, but it turned out like Peter didn't even audition me. I sat with Peter while Peter talked on the telephone

at ICM. And then he handed, and I was like terrified cause I didn't have an audition piece, so I thought I was going to have to do cold reading. Yeah, yeah. And there was nothing. Oh, because you have the dyslexia. I couldn't fucking read, so I'm like,

I was just panicked. Yeah. Anyway, Peter hands me the script, and he says, come back next week. And so I went back the next week, and it turned out it was a read-through of the film. Yeah. In the conference room with all the actors

around the whole table reading the thing. And he said, all right, great, we'll see you in LA. And I was in the movie. So there was, it was like one of those touched by God moments. Like, how did that happen? I don't know how it happened. Well, so how do you prepare, like if you do have that much trouble reading,

would it just take you longer? Like when you take a script home, you just have to really sit with it and figure it out. Yeah. But once I, you know, once if I get a chance to memorize it, I can act it. The fear is, you hand it to me right now and I go read it with, you know, but I learned to read actually, doing the Wonder Years. I was all voiceover. And I had to read it, they'd give me a new script and like I totally overcame that, you know,

in the room they'd say, here's a rewrite and like suddenly I'm cold reading. And also like, but also with a voiceover, it's not, you can redo it over it over and over exactly so the pressure was off Yeah, and I really got my reading skills so I could do I could read anything you want well That's very interesting guy talked to Mark Ruffalo recently and he's got that an issue with it and and I think that because it it's so deliberate to Process just the reading it probably goes in deeper, quicker.

Maybe. Well, you have to think about it every fucking time. Exactly, you gotta, and you go back, because like, did I understand that line? I keep going back when I read it. It's interesting, it might be one of the few jobs where dyslexia actually gives you the time to process the story with a different pace.

That's, I never thought of it. That's why I'm so good. God damn it. We figured it out. So you're out there in Indiana with Quaid and Jack Earle, and that guy, Dennis Christopher, who I didn't see much of after that, but that must have been kind of intense. I mean, just, I mean, cause you know, Quaid was, he's sort of a, he's his own thing, man. And he was always sort of his own thing, I guess. But you were all kind of kids, right? We were all kids. You know, Jackie was the movie star.

Jackie had done Bad News Bears. So that, again, I'd never been in a movie. I'd never auditioned for a movie. I never thought about being in a movie until I'd had an agent for two weeks before. Yeah, he was like a bad kid in that bad news bears. So like, I saw, like, we'd go on the street and people would ask Jackie for his autograph.

Oh, yeah. And he was such a wonderful, humble dude. And he was, like, out of it for a long time. And he kind of resurfaced a few years ago. Came back strong, man. With, like, what was it, little children? Heavy role. Right. He's such a good actor. He's so good and an interesting presence. long time and he kind of resurfaced a few years ago. Came back strong. With like, what was it, little children? Heavy role.

Right. He's such a good actor. He's so good and interesting presence. But I think he had a lot, you know, he went and had a life in Texas for a while, I think. I think that's right. They found him. They dug him up for, I don't remember what the story is. I've never interviewed him.

But he was living, yeah, he was like doing real life kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. But when you worked with him, he was like the guy. Yeah, well, I mean, he was, again, humble as hell. Dennis was already preening. Yeah, yeah. But when you worked with him, he was like the guy. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was, again, humble as hell. Dennis was already preening, you know, I mean, he was cut and funny. I mean, I loved it. Was that his first role?

No, he'd done... Because his brother was at it before him. Yeah. His brother, Randy, was in Last Picture Show. Right. So Dennis was living under that shadow a little bit. But this one, he stepped up himself in that role. Well, he turned in, like, you know,

Dennis turned into a very proficient and, you know, kind of, he's a good actor. Like, he can kind of do anything, you know. He was like, he's one of those guys that's like almost movie star, but not movie star enough to where it's going to stop him. Right. So he could still-

He's got to both. But he considered, and he should. I think he played Ronald Reagan. He can invest himself in a character. He doesn't just... I love movie stars who don't do anything, too. I mean, Harrison Ford or guys like that, they just stand there and be themselves. Yeah, yeah, they know how to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, he was like, there was that one... Jesus, man, it was like later Quaid is really the best Quaid for me. That little movie he did with Topher Grace where he plays his boss, it's kind of a great movie. In Good Company is what it's called. Okay. And it's kind of a great movie. In Good Company is what it's called. Okay. And it's kind of a sweet little movie.

You know, Topher Grace gets hired to be basically, you know, he's, I think Quaid works at some sort of sporting goods corporation, and Topher Grace is brought in as the new hot young kid and kind of becomes his boss, but he doesn't know how to be a boss or a person. So, you know, Quaid's character has to find the humility to instead of being threatened to kind of mentor this kid.

It was a sweet, it was a cute movie. He picks really good movies, actually. Dennis is a super, super talented guy. And so you go right from Breaking Away to Diner? No, I went from Breaking Away to a few really shitty, tiny little parts because the movie didn't come out for a year, so I quit.

Oh, Starting Over, yeah. Starting Over, I did. Big comedy ladies in that. Small, yeah. Jill Kleberg. I did three movies with Jill. Candice Bergen. Yeah.

She's great. Love her. Jill's great, your daughter's great. Oh yeah, it's Lily Rabe. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's David R Yeah. She's great. Love her. Jill's great. Your daughter's great. Oh, yes. Lily Rabe. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's David Rabe. That's right. Jill's daughter. Right. She's great at it. She's tremendous. And David Rabe, that's heavy. Did you ever do Hurly Burly?

I never did. I got to meet David a few times. But yeah, super talented family. OK, so you do that. Small circle of friends. Yeah, did small circle of friends. Did a bit part in Stardust Memories. Yes, so I'd got these like little parts.

What were you in Stardust Memories? Stardust Memories, I believe I was a young actor. Oh yes, that's right, that's right. Hassling Woody Allen at the. Right, where that hotel was. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I only saw it that one time.

That's right, and he was like, you know, you were running around pestering him. Pestering him. But the beauty of it, I mean, he was my absolute idol. And so the fact that I got to, he picked me to be in his movie. I went in for the audition and had him for a second. And, but then I, yeah,

because I remember I brought a picture of me as Tevye. Oh, Tevye. And he let me, because I played Tevye in high school, and then so he let me improvise that. He thought that was really funny. Then he called me back for a second day of shooting, which was really like Woody Allen. Wow, yeah.

Yeah, no, I was feeling... This is the earlier version of Woody Allen. Yes. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. The funny... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved him when he was funny. Yeah, sure.

But, and then like I... So then Diner, yeah, Diner popped up. Oh, he did One Trick Prony too. Yeah, Paul Simon. Yeah, I know. That was a weird movie. Like it was sort of an autobiographical movie about a musician. You got a good memory, dude.

Yeah. And I don't remember, I remember Paul's, his acting was okay. Right. But he's Paul Simon. Yeah, it was all about the music and he never wanted to really act again. But I mean, those are my two idols, Woody Allen and Paul Simon. Yeah. And there I was in the course of a year, I'd accomplished everything I set out to do as

an actor because I got to, you know, I hung out with Paul Simon and his brother Eddie for the night shooting. And I played a... Eddie the guitar teacher? Yeah. Exactly. I just remember when I lived in New York that he would have ads on the radio.

Paul Simon's brother. The guitar teacher. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. That's funny. So yeah, I got Exactly. That's funny. So, yeah, I got to spend the night filming with Paul Simon and hanging out in the trailer and it was like...

Yeah? I was playing a Hare Krishna at the airport. But I had a bald wig and then a bad wig on top of that. And so I spent the whole night, I realized when I got back to the trailer and left after work, like, I just met my idol and I looked like a fucking idiot. And a bad wig and a bald wig and it's like, and I'm hanging with Paul and Eddie and I'm like, oh, that's what I look like. You know, they've got a great story about that.

Ron, you know, who's the, you know, Ron from, you know, the big dude from- Perlman? Yeah, yeah. He was on that island of Dr. Moreau and, you know, and Brando was in that. And Perlman's in that goat head. He's got this goat head out and he's like, he wants, all he wants to do is impress Brando.

He's just standing there with his goat head on. And he, it's too funny, man. That's it, man, you know, but you never know how you're gonna meet your idols, but. So you did like a bunch of little parts before Diner. Yeah, you know, I had to. I had zero to zero money. But you didn't feel like quitting?

Quitting? Yeah. No, I started to make a little money. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was making, you know, I was, Your wife and I were at zero. Oh, you're already married. We're breaking away. No, we were living together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was making, you know, I was, my wife and I were at zero. Oh, you're already married. And I got breaking away.

No, we were living together. Yeah, yeah, in New York? Yeah. And then I got Upper West Side. Okay. But yeah, I made like $8,000 on Breaking Away and I was suddenly like, oh, shit, this is it. We're in it, man.

And then I made $400 on that and $500 on that and then breaking, I mean, then Diner came along and I, you know, I made 30 grand and I was like, shit. This is it, I'm winning. I'm completely. So, but Diner was a unique movie. Like it really, somehow or another really connected. Yeah.

Mickey Rourke, you know. Bacon. Gutenberg, Bacon. Come on. Bacon. Come come you've traveled far. When he's in the manger, but, but like it, it, it, it really landed with me. Maybe because I'm Jewish, I don't know, but I was so entertained by Paul Reiser.

Paul was the, Paul was the secret sauce of that whole thing because the interesting thing with Barry in that one was he was ready to throw the script out. Really? We just improvised. I mean, we spent, and we started improvising from the first time we met, and then we spent a month in the diner

just bullshitting every night shoot, a month of night shoots. And we all had parts. Reiser didn't really have a part in the diner just bullshitting every, you know, a night shoot, a month of night shoots. And we all had parts. Riser didn't really have a part in the movie, but Riser was a standup comic and funny as shit. And everybody had to keep up with Paul because like we're improving. And he's like low key too.

Completely, but he was sharp as a fucking bat. Well, he'd sort of locked into that thing with the, you know, this kind of like, kind of thoughtful guy, but it wasn't deep thoughts necessarily. You know, like, yeah, I... He still liked that, by the way. I know, I know, yeah. I'm not comfortable with the word nuance.

Right? All of that stuff out of his head. But that was all improvised. All improvised, all improvised. So it really, you know, we were all surprised when the movie came out that all that improvisation ended up at what the movie was. It was a bunch of guys hanging out, bullshitting.

Yeah. And that was, that Barry had the balls and the confidence to say, that's the movie I wanna make. There's no plot. Other than you're moving towards that wedding. The wedding. Yeah. Which is all off screen.

But also the side stories like Mickey Rourke and your girlfriend, right? Right, wife. Ellen Barkan. Ellen Barkan, right. Yeah, he was trying to fuck my wife. Right, right, yeah. Come on.

I know. And Ellen Barkan, you know, she, all the people really went on to have, you know, relatively big careers. Isn't it incredible? Certainly Kevin. Yeah, yeah. No, and Mickey, I mean, Mickey's genius these days.

He's a crazy guy, but what an actor. Always. What an actor. Yeah, he's a, I remember seeing him at a club in New York after I saw Diner and just being like, what is up with that dude? He's one of those character actors, but a movie star. Movie star, yeah.

For sure, yeah, but like but he always hung with tough guys. Yeah? Right? Right. Boxers, mobsters. And he wasn't a boxer. He wasn't kidding around. Because I guess that was... I can't remember what happened first, Diner or that... I think it was after that bit.

Body heat? Body heat. It was after. It was after. Diner was after. That's what sort of made him, was that like, I don't know, counselor? You know, like- Yeah, riveting. Yeah. Riveting dude. And again, that movie star thing where he is so confident in that he's just interesting

to look at, that he doesn't have to do anything. He doesn't do the, he doesn't overact. He doesn't, it's just his presence. He's so comfortable. Once they know that and they're able to be gracious within it. I mean, I just learned this yesterday. I talked to Chris Pine, the actor, and he was talking about working with these guys who are movie stars and the ones that are amazing are the ones that are grounded in it enough to allow space for the other actors.

And he learned that from Kosner. Another movie star. Right. Yeah. And that draws you in. You know, I love actors. I don't have that skill. I'm always trying to do something or creating a character or something like that, you know. But it's the gift that we love in the movies

is to just have your everyman be solid Or Tom in right in the center of a storm. Yeah, and you ride along with them and they bring you with them and it's yeah Phenomenal some of them aren't always every men, but you know, they yeah, no, but you get you you get them You know you get them you like you like you right the essence of of their star in us So like so after that like because here's the weird thing about my connection to Diner is like I was in, what year was that? So I was in college and I had gone, after I'd seen it, I saw it in high school probably,

or maybe just after. But I was down in New York from Boston and I went to the comic strip. And I always wanted to do comedy, but I was not doing it because I was a kid, you know, I was not even 20 yet. But Reiser was sitting there and I knew him from Diner and, because I was a kid, you know, I was not even 20 yet. But Riser was sitting there, and I knew him from Diner, and I knew he was a comic,

and he was just sitting in a booth by himself. And I remember going up to him and saying like, all right, I wanna do comedy, how do I do it? And he just said, I don't know, you just gotta do it. And that was it. That was my big interaction. And you know what? That's true. That's probably true.

That's true. That's the thing, he wasn't being an asshole. Get up and tell some fucking jokes. Yeah, That's true. That's probably true. That's the thing. He wasn't being an asshole. Get up and tell some fucking jokes. Yeah, that's all. Yeah. Figure it out. Exactly.

No, Paul is still a dear, dear, dear friend. Oh, that's good. Well, he's another guy that made some bread and said, fuck it, I'm gonna raise my family and have a life. Yeah, but he goes on, you know, and he... Now, they took a bit of time off though. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting... I think he's doing a little standup.

I don't know how it's going for him out there. He does. I've got, he's so good. He's so fucking funny. He's still pretty, very much himself. Yeah, and he just is like, I don't know if you're that kind of comic, but like his mind goes to a joke.

It's like a computer. He gets a situation, something happens. His mind turns it into something funny immediately. But as I recall, I think he's one of those guys that really like, he wanted to act. Yes. Like standup wasn't the end all. No.

And that when he did start acting, he really got away from it. And then writing. He's a brilliant writer. I mean, he's developed the Mad About You show. He writes. He writes a movie. He produces a movie.

He's just an incredible piano player too. Really? Musician. I mean, just a deep, talented man. Oh, that's good. But I mean, when you do diner and you play that funny part, you feel for your guy more than the other guys.

You know, because... Well, I'm married. I'm trapped. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you got the records. That's right. You were a record. That's right.

Yeah, you're obsessed with the records. Everything had to be in order. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a real character. That was real character work because I'm a fucking slob. Yeah. But do you know, like, at that point, do you know, like, well, I'm not a movie star per se? I'm a fucking slob. Yeah. But do you know, like at that point, do you know like, well, I'm not a movie star per se,

I'm a character actor or like you? Yeah. Yeah. I was, I loved that. Yeah. I never wanted to be, I never had a desire to be the main horse. I started to feel really good riding right behind the lead people.

I wanna be the best friend. That always feels good to me. Because again, I mean, I don't remember thinking it then, but I know it to be true now. I'm not the guy. I'm not the movie star. I'm not, I don't, I don't, the camera doesn't do, bring that out in me when I stand there.

Maybe more now. I'm older, maybe I give a shit less or something. But even now, I don't want to just stand there and be me. You don't have to carry the fucking movie. Exactly. Just come in, score. And I've carried some movies. And the joke to me is if they're offering me the lead,

I'm sure the director is a tall Jewish guy who, you know, who sees himself in me and wants him to be the star of the movie. It's never gonna work. Is that... Did that turn out to be true? I've... Yes. Oh, yeah? If you dig deep into that IMDB, there's a couple of...

Yeah? Get crazy, the boss's Wife, you know, where I'm the romantic lead. It's like, okay, that's not gonna work. But the director, Ziggy Steinberg, saw me as the guy. But you, like, you definitely had a good run after that. Oh, yeah.

I mean, you're always working, right? Yep. You know, the goal at the time was to work with great directors. I leapfrogged up to an agent named Sam Cohn. He was Peter Yates' agent. He was Woody Allen's agent. I mean, he was...

Yeah, I remember the name. But Sam just said, just work with good directors. But in terms of that being the goal of working with good directors, what do you get out of that? I mean, other than the, the, you know, working with good directors, what do you learn? Yeah, you learn, that's where I learned to love and understand the making of movies. Yeah.

And sort of tickled my desire to be a director, and to write movies, and I mean, that wasn't, I don't think that wasn't Sam's goal. It was to be in classy movies and get good parts. But as you said, it doesn't always work out that way. No, and you never know, but seeing how Barry Levinson handled himself on the set and how Woody Allen directed the film

and how Redford and how Schlesinger handles a crew, and you start to, you know, I got more and more experience on a set and seeing, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and filmmaking... Yeah. ...really, as an art form, really started to mean something to me,

as opposed to being an actor. Sure, it took a long time to do it, though, for you, right? To direct? Yeah, I've eventually got my first directing thing is on the Wonder Years. When I got that gig, I made that part of my deal. But that's a good way to start, because especially with a show that's already got a dug in look,

then you can work within that. So there's a different skill set. You know, you have to, the thing is what it is. Right. But you can, you know, kind of. Yeah. And I was actually, yeah, I mean, I got to trail the director on the pilot because I wanted to do it.

I directed one of the first episodes, but I didn't have to invent the look of the show. It was already there. The kids were cast. But it really, yeah, it just gave me a lot of confidence on the floor, how to run the show and edit and score and all the things that go into movie making. Yeah, it was wonderful. It's interesting about TV though

that they do bring in a director to sort of like set the look. Yeah, and then they kind of go away. And yeah, television directing was a great way to cut my teeth. And I've done it since, like, I like to do it, I've done it on shows that I am in or have friends running. Yeah, sure. But to go in as a TV director.

Just a guy. On it, it's like that. There's a lot of actors doing that. Yeah, it's a good gig. But I just, I'm not interested in it. Yeah, it's a good gig, but I'm not interested in it. Right, it's amazing though, because I think culturally, the next generation after mine was gonna know you from those Home Alone movies and the City Swickers movies,

but it's kind of astounding how much work you did with all these different people. I mean, like the Milagro Beanfield Awards, I don't remember what your role in that is, but that was kind of a beautiful movie. Oh, one of my favorites of all time, yeah. And that was a Redford movie. Yeah, with a great, I played a social worker actually,

and but yeah, just, I mean. And you did Hannah and Her Sisters, which is part of that trilogy, the last of the great Woody Allen movies, really. So I couldn't be, I couldn't ask for more of all the things I got to do. And then, yeah, when the Home Alone stuff happened, that was kind of a twist because I'd never,

I'd never considered whether a movie was successful or not. I didn't care. That ended up being the number one movie. And then the number one movie like week after week. Yeah. And we were shooting City Slickers at the time, and Billy was like, your up being the number one movie. And then the number one movie like week after week. And we were shooting City Slickers at the time and Billy was like, your fucking movie is number one again. I'm like, yeah, okay.

And then it's number one again. And I'm like, okay. But that part, like, you know, was there any resistance to it? Like when you got offered it or read for it? How did that work with Home Alone? I wanted it desperately. It took me back to those comedy, all those comedy kids,

people I loved, all the physical comedy. Hughes wrote a script that, like when you see the movie, if you have the script, it's shot by shot. John wrote it shot by shot. So when I read that script, I was on the floor laughing. This is the craziest. And I'd done True West, which is not the same character, but the physicality, the bad guy.

So you're like, I can use it. It was. It was like, I know how to kind of be an asshole. Look at Sam Shepard's contribution to Home Alone. To Home Alone. An unknown little nugget there. But no, I wanted to be in that very, very much. Did you have to read with Pesci before?

I went in and read. I knew Joe. Joe and I did a movie. What was that called? A Jill Kleberg movie. I'm dancing as fast as I can. Right. Yeah.

So Joe and I were buds. Oh, so you knew him. We became friends on that. And then, yeah, he was in this. No, I went in and read for Chris Columbus. And then I drove away and I thought, oh shit, you know, I could do better. And I went back, I called my agent.

I said, I could do that better. And they said, no, you're fine. And I said, no, no, I'm going back. So I went back and I read for it twice that same day. For Home Alone. Yeah, because I no, I'm going back. So I went back and I read for it twice that same day. For Home Alone. Yeah, because I really, really did want that. Yeah. Just because it made me laugh so fucking hard.

What were the choices that you made the second time? Why did you think you didn't do well? I don't know. I can't remember. I just thought, I don't remember what I did. I just remember going, I want it so bad. Did I do it? You know, in my mind, I was like rerunning it in my head

and I was like, no, no, no, just go back. And Chris said, you didn't have to come back, I was gonna give it to you anyway. And I might've fucked that up. But I think when I did it the second time, I kind of did it, I mean, you know, again, it's not high art, but whatever the sense of humor, I mean, there was also a sense,

in the first one, there was a sense of danger. Like you had to, Chris wondered, and that's one reason why you get peshy. Like they should be scary to start with so that there's a threat. But not so scary that the kid is threatened in a real way. Right, but just, I mean, and then when we did the sequel, it was like, they're not scary at all, they're just idiots.

They're quiet. But there was a, yeah, but at, I mean, and then when we did the sequel, it was like, they're not scary at all, they're just idiots, but there was a, yeah. But at the beginning of it, it's like, you know, you got Joe and, so I think maybe when I went back the second time, I sort of had a good balance between the silly and the threatening. And then like in the movies, you got, you're basically in a comedy team with Pesci. And you gotta figure out that dynamic,

and I imagine it just happened naturally? Completely, yeah. I mean mean Joe was We had a couple beers and like we all sat around Joe's like yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna make up a Light, you know like a cartoon. So when he gets hitting the head with something he's like a resin freaking freckle record So he was like gonna and it was always gonna be he was gonna be So he was like gonna, and it was always gonna be, he was gonna be Moe, and I was gonna be Curly and Larry, both like a combo of them, and he was gonna be the brains of the organization.

And it fit like a glove, because we were already kind of goofy friends. And yeah. Have you done Goodfellas already? No. That's crazy. No, he'd done, I think he'd done Raging Bull. Oh right, right, right, right. But.

Which is actually kind of a funny part. Oh. You know. I mean, he makes me laugh, he's so fucking intense. He makes me laugh at how scary he is. Yeah, when he wants to be. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of amazing.

And then it comes out, am I a clown? You know, I mean, it's like the perfect combination. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, how am I a clown? You know, I mean, it's like the perfect combination. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, how am I funny? Yeah. So, now, City Swickers, that's some comedy heavyweights that you're dealing with, right? Yeah.

And Jack Palance, like, a legend. Did you get to talk to him? I did, you know. I really got to know Jack more on the second one. Yeah. Uh, because he, we had more time on the set, but Palance was just an intimidating, wonderful dude, and it finally broke through.

I mean, he was just a genius of an artist. He was a painter and a poet, and he's the one who, and a rancher, and he's the one who really inspired me to put down the acting thing and pursue other art forms. Made you realize that you could have a bigger life. Bigger life, exactly. Jack really inspired me on that second one especially, and it's like, you know, you can, and I ended up buying a cattle ranch and getting into my sculpture life and quitting the movies

kind of thing. Just from Home Alone and City Swicker Money? Yeah, the sequel. I got some, I got good paydays on the sequel and then just like, well, you know. You became a farmer? I did. For a while?

Still am. I told you, I live on a tangerine farm. I gave you the frigging juice. Yeah, I know, but it's different than cattle. Well, I have a cattle ranch too. You do? Yeah. And what do you do with it?

Are you out there with the cows? Well, I have a cattleman who runs his cows, but I herd them with them. I don't ride a horse. I'm on my quad. Yeah, I help them brand stuff and I take hikes and- Where is that? It's in Central Valley.

Oh, it's here. It's all here. Yeah, all Central Valley. Oh, it's here, it's all here. Yeah, all in California. Oh, no shit. I split my time between a 40 acre avocado tangerine farm. Oh, you do avocados too? Yeah, and a 500 acre cattle ranch. So I'm a total California,

my wife's family were all California farmers and ranchers. Really? So she really... Grew up in it and she's comfortable in it? Yeah. So I just ride along on her as I do with my whole life. That's crazy. She does everything.

Yeah, and I remember you did that movie, Very Bad Things. That's a great one too. I mean, that's one of my favorites. I know Berg. Then again, watching great direct... That was Peter's first movie and you see a director like really coming to their own before your very eyes. He...

Yeah, he's a real, like I did a bit part, like years ago, Berg was a friend of my buddy, you know Steve Brill, the director? Yeah, yeah. Well, Brill lived in Culver City. I went to college with Brill and I came out here to write with Brill. We had done comedy in college together. So I was living with him in Culver City in this apartment, and him and Berg were buddies, and then Berg moved in, and I got pushed out.

But there was a period there where it was me, Berg, and Brill, and they were like so aware of how show business worked and where they were going. And I was just sort of like, I just want to be a comic. I don't even know how to live as a grownup. You know? Yeah. But I've interviewed Pete. Peter really had that vision,

and you watch where he went from Very Bad Things and then took on Epic. Yeah, he's got a lot of swagger, that guy. Yeah. Like he's like, I did a bit part in his movie recently. Which one? It was the one with Mark Wahlberg, Spencer Confidential. It was for Netflix, but like I didn't I'd never work with Pete as a director

But he's like a megaphone guy like, you know, this one you're on is a guy Because he wound us up, I mean that was the fun thing and very bad thing It's a pretty disturbing fun movie it is and he was like we're gonna start the dial at 11 and take it up from there. And he really wound us all. I mean, he was terrific. I thought he worked brilliantly with actors and put on great performances. Well, he's an actor.

I just watched him last night and something. I watched, you watched Collateral. Oh. The Michael Mann movie. Yeah, right. And he plays a cop in that. It's not a huge part, but he's in there. Yeah.

And I just watched that thing two months ago, but it's one of those movies where I just wanna watch the beginning and then all of a sudden you're watching the whole thing again. Really? Yeah, I never go back and watch movies again. You don't? I have to now. Because like I'm 60 and movies that had an impact on me when I was in my 20s, especially

movies that were done by artists, it's like, what did I really understand? Right. Why do I love that? Why is that? I know it's like, what did I really understand? Right, why do I love that? Why is that? I know it was great, but do I really know why? Right. Like I watched Paris, Texas, it changed my life. Like when I was in my 20s, I watched it, I'm like, I knew it was amazing,

but there was no way I could have gotten the depth of it. No, it's smart to do it, but there's just so much to watch. I can't, I don't wanna go backwards. I don't know, but you get to an age, it's sort of like, why not go to the ones that were amazing? Because like I miss everything. I had to watch Oppenheimer a second time because like it's almost a disservice to the director who spent like a decade layering this thing.

And we're just going to watch it and eat the popcorn and like, okay, that was in and out. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. So were you successful in like, was there actually a time where you took several years off or like pulled out? Yeah. Yeah? I mean, I think I did like once in a while, I would pop out and do something.

Just to like, I wasn't quite ready to tell my agents I'm gone, but yeah, you know, more of late, more in the last, since I moved to this other farm especially, like, well, I really got involved in my sculpture life. Oh, yeah. So I once I... When did that kick in? That probably, that was probably 20 years ago. I started renting a studio down in Culver City.

And I'd done sculpture when I was a kid, and then, but then I rented a space and it was like in the art district on La Cienega. So like I had foot traffic coming in. Like I had to really take myself seriously. It was the first time I took myself seriously. Who's your inspiration for sculpture? I mean, you're not an abstract art guy.

No, I'm a figurative Rodin. Yeah. And so you do casting? Yeah, I sculpt in clay. I make mold, and then I do commissions for cities. You got a lot of stuff out there? I do. I do commissions for cities and I've... You got a lot of stuff out there? I do, I do, you know? And it's quite satisfying artistically

because I don't sit in the trailer. I work all day. Yeah, with the clay. With the clay. And I've done a few things in other medium plaster and things like that, but like, I found a job that I can go to every day and do and not have anybody tell me when to do it

and what it should be. Yeah. And it, I tell my... Or to do it again. Yeah, right. But I just did it. I thought that was good. Yeah, so that's been, is very satisfying.

Sort of put the acting thing in a different perspective of just creative-wise. Yeah, yeah. Like I don't need it to be my art form. So you're back to your original sort of self. Yeah. Engaging in all the arts and having the freedom to do that. Correct.

Now what about the directing? How was your success in that outside of television? It was, you know, good. And, I mean, I did a movie called Rookie of the Year. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a baseball movie. And then that was a nice big hit, and I got a development deal at Fox and developed movies, developed...

But it was also the time when the sequels were coming for Home Alone. So it was like, what am I gonna jump out and do a direct at when I could cash in over there? I still wanna do it again, but it was also very consuming because one of the reasons I pulled back was my kids were, I was trying to be there for them. Yeah, and directing, you're in for a year or two. That's it, so the timing of it never worked out.

I think I want to come back to it at some point now. Yeah. But it's a tricky game to get into again. And, you know, I mean, I've got little scripts I've written and are out there. And, but I can't put my heart into it anymore. You know, it's too heartbreaking. Yeah.

I'd imagine. Too. I mean, do you, have you written scripts? Well, it's too, it's too heartbreaking. Yeah. I can, I'd imagine too. I mean, do you, have you written scripts? Well, I have, I don't, I don't love writing, but I mean, I've, I've definitely talked to enough guys where, you know, and especially with the media landscape, it's like, you better really want to make the movie and, and, and that's gotta be your end game. Right.

Because, you know, the best that can happen or, or at the very least is just some platform picks it up and it's out there. If you're not making a blockbuster, you're just sort of like, well, you can find it on 2B or whatever. And if you don't even get to 2B, then you've got a script in your drawer that it's only a blueprint for a movie. So the joy has got to be to make it and without expectation. Right. And that's where, like, I just don't have it in me to fight to get it made and all of it.

I mean, I still fight. I still do it. But like, I like the writing. Like, I'm writing a thing now. One of the movies you haven't mentioned, which I'm a little hurt by. I'm sorry. Chud.

Oh, yeah, of course, Chud. Yeah, cannibalistic, humanoid. What is it? Underground Dwellers. Oh yeah, of course Chud. Yeah, cannibalistic humanoid, what is it? Underground dwellers. Yeah, that is a big one. I ended up with the stage rights to Chud. Okay. So I am actually, it's actually happening, moving along,

but I'm- Doing a play? The musical. Oh, of Chud. With CeeLo Green as the composer. Wow, that's pretty big. So I'm like writing the book. It's a campy, funny, horror comedy.

Yeah. Musical. Yeah, but a little less campy with CeeLo's music. He's songs are fucking great. So that's happening? Yeah, I've got like 10 songs so far, but I love the writing of it. I don't have to, I like the pressure of,

I've got another real Broadway producers who are gonna be involved with all that. So it's like, this is a big day for me that I left my house and put on a pair of pants. Cause I just like creating shit in my own whole world. And when I have to actually get out there and sell and do and sell myself, and so I like, I'm kind of, I'm tired of it.

Of the selling. The selling is the hard part. You're out there all the time. I mean, you're, you know. I don't sell much, you know. I didn't like, you know, I never set out to be an actor or maybe I just didn't really pursue it much. I just wanted to do comedy and I do this,

and my partner and I, my producer, business partner, we have complete control over this and I got complete control. No, when you're doing it at your house, which is genius. But I just took a role that I really didn't, I don't need to do anything really because my life is pretty small and I'm not looking to make it bigger. But yeah, there's some part of me that wants to act. So I took a role and it was a real struggle

to decide to do it because there's so much about the process of acting that I find tedious and annoying. But no, no, I'm locked in. So now I gotta get that in my head that the anxiety- Do you have to go somewhere? Yeah. And I had to figure out how do I keep doing this and doing that because this is really my job. But like, I imagine you had to deal with that a lot

about these decisions to do things. It's a fucking nightmare. It is. Especially if you don't need to do it. Right. And that's why I finally said to myself, I'm gonna leave here, I'm gonna go make here. I'm going to go make some good money. But the whole family is here.

Everything interesting is happening here. And finally, that's what I just said. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not sitting in a hotel. I'm not sitting in a camper. And it freed me to, again, Sculpt Ranch. I started a Boys and Girls Club, you know, got into my public service. I got to give back like my parents did in their world.

You got to tap into that part of me. Now I got grandkids who come over and like... Yeah, yeah, what do you need to put in? Like, what is it, yeah. But you did a lot of little bit parts in TV. That's gotta be easy. Uh, I've done a couple. I don't know, TV?

I don't know what I've done. I mean, I did a, I did a, I don't know, TV, I don't know what I've done. I mean, I did a, this year I went back and I did a part on an Apple show. Oh yeah. Where I played the head of NASA. Oh good, that's good. Which is typecasting. Yeah, sure.

And that was like, for all mankind it was called. And it was like, yeah, I mean it was. TV was never your thing really? Well, it's the same. I mean, TV and movies- Bigger commitment. Well, yeah, you're locked in, you know? And no, but to me it's the same.

I mean, it's the camera and me. Right, okay, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it's like acting, I'm turning the line, I'm trying to feel the character and whatever. But yeah, and it was okay to do, but it didn't spark me to go, I gotta get out there. And I need the part of a lifetime.

Like the part of a, I don't want the part of a lifetime. That's behind you. Yeah, and I've also, yeah, I mean, I'm proud of my body of work. I don't need to go like do shit that I'm not proud of. Right. And start just- Has that happened?

Oh, yeah. I mean, look at, well, every other one on the IMDB. But- I just wanna make sure you had clarity about you. About my failures. I do, Mom. I mean, Mark. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. failures. I do mom, I mean Mark. No, I don't want to be curmudgeoning about it. Yeah, it's not all you. I mean it's just you don't know what's gonna happen with something that seemed good. Yeah and I like, I love filmmaking so and I like playing my role in it sometimes. I like being in control of it. I like writing it. I'm still addicted to that whole process and the magic that, right. Cause I've also seen, and it's taken me a while to accept it. Uh, but you know, a connection with an audience,

that home alone thing is a phenomenon that took me a long time to digest, like, that people love it, that I get to be a tiny part of their holiday, their family gathering. Their memories, their life. Their memories. I grew up on you, you know, and all that. And it's like, uh, you know, and like, you've had movies that impact you when you say, I gotta see

that one again. So I'm honored to be part of that world and that art form. But you don't have to chase it anymore. I don't, yeah, because yeah, I don't need, I don't want to, I don't wanna do things that don't have the quality that I already have sort of done. Well, you seem good. Thank you. We didn't really talk about the reason you're here,

which is writing a book. So you wrote the book. Right. But what compelled you to write the book? Writing the book basically started as just wanting to stop. Yeah. I'd been doing, I've been always going and making jobs for myself and doing things and working in sculpture and acting and writing, blah, blah, blah.

And I said to myself, like, how did this happen? How did I end up as a 65-year-old guy with these kids, with this career, with this fan base, with this wife and this fan base with this You know this wife in these farms and all this stuff and so I arms and that's an important part. So I I Made a started making a list. Like I just said, what's the first thing I remember like what happened? Yeah, well I was born there and then I just made a list of Not even outline just no just like... Like a chronological list.

Yeah, chronological list. And then I went to that elementary school and that. Right. And it was like, oh, and I took a few days to just build that to say, and then I got to here. Right. It was like, okay. And then I thought, well, you know, I always turn something into a job in a way, just so

I... You know, I always turn something into a job in a way, just so I, but I decided to like say that could, those could be chapter headings. Those could be chapter headings. So what would a chapter look like? And I wrote a chapter. I wrote, the first thing I wrote was about driving. I did a, Robert Redford directed me in a movie. And Bob let me drive his Porsche one day,

me and Bob driving his Porsche. So I thought, hey, that's kind of funny. Because I wanted to just like see what it would sound like. So I wrote that chapter and it was kind of funny. And then I wrote another chapter. And then I sort of. So it almost was an exercise. You weren't thinking like I want to sell a book. No, not at all. It was just an extent. It was you kind of trying to reflect on your life.

Exactly. It was just regrouping. It was a regrouping. And when I've written though, I find that like when you start putting things together that because you just move through life and it's just one thing after another, that all of a sudden you can kind of see intentions, you can kind of see how it affected you, you can kind of see how it was connected to other things, and you can kind of, you know, kind of fortify the memories with meaning. David Sinclair Correct. And track the, yeah, track the evolution of those feelings and why I did them and the ramifications of them,

the choices I've made. And so I ended up giving myself the job of writing a book. And then I wrote it and then my agents said, well, let me read it. They thought it was funny and sent it to publishers. I said, well, I'm not sure about that. And now I'm going to put it out as an author. I'm not an author. I can't even fucking read a book, let alone write a book.

Yeah. But then when I, so what I did was, and I did want to make the point, like I said, I'm giving the money away. I'm giving the money to the Boys and Girls Club. I started a Boys and Girls Club. They're a wonderful organization. I said, I'm taking the, I don't want to be in the marketplace.

Do you like me? You're reading my book. Where's it ranked? Yeah, all that. Just I'm giving the money away. It's still an artistic endeavor. It's still a personal journey. I hope people connect.

People have enjoyed reading it and I hope it's funny and all that. But that was really the reason for writing it, just to regroup. And it's interesting because now I've commodified, is that the word, the stories? So like, well, the problem of it, and maybe you've had this because you said you've written,

like now that story's locked. Now that story about Robert Redford riding, driving his car, like that's the story, that's how I know it now. Well there's A plus B, you know, equals this, his stories, but like, you know, how it evolves in your memory or once you get it down, you might, you know, 10 years from now go like, oh, yeah, I forgot to. Exactly, you know, so I don't want to lock in my own, like just... It's all right. ...lock it in.

Yeah, yeah. It's been very kind of a fun... And neither of your kids are in show business, right? No, I've got three, all of them not. Oh, three. Yeah, three kids, yeah. That's interesting. A state senator.

Wow. A doctor. Really? And a musician slash rabbi. He's a rabbi. She. She. No kidding.

Sexist pig. Women can be rabbis. I know that, yeah. And musicians. Yes. And a lot of the musical rabbis are women. Well, that all seems like a good intention. Now do you think you'll be able to ultimately separate yourself from the expectation once

it's out? Or you think you're gonna be able to be like, how many we sell? No, I don't care. I really, really don't. I mean, again, this was a big day for me to come. It's, I really, I just, I hide out in my studio all day. I write, I sculpt, blah, blah, blah. So I'm gonna force myself...

Not to engage with the reaction. Yeah. Well, good luck with that. Yeah. I think I can do it. All right. Well, you get back to me. Well, I don't have social media. I don't have... I've started doing a little bit of that. They said, you know... There you go. That's how they get you. But I don't know how to get on it to see. Oh good. You just have people doing it. Yeah, I have people there you go. That's how they get you. But I don't know how to get on it to see it. Oh, good. You just have people doing it. Yeah, I have people send it out. Well, don't, don't, don't.

I see you do it. Occasionally. I've gotten, I've pulled back a lot. Yeah, I don't wanna know. I, I. Well, it's not just a matter of knowing. It's also that, you know, every fucking person in the world has access to you.

Once you start doing, you know, looking at your own social media, then you see just anybody is making a comment. What I decided to do was like I took some videos of my sculptures. I made a funny video of like me being the pretentious author. It's like I'm only putting stuff out that I think is fun. Good. Just don't, don't, just stay in. I won't read anything. Okay. All right. I'll hold you to that.

Okay. It was great talking to you. You too, Mark. Thanks for doing it. My pleasure. There you go, folks. Daniel Stern, great guy, fun talk. The book Home and Alone comes out tomorrow.

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Daniel Stern came up on this show at least once before, back when I talked to Macaulay Culkin. That was episode 883 how is Daniel Stern? Always sweet you again what you have to remember is that I'm not really in a lot of scenes with those guys I guess that's true. Yeah. No, that's the thing. It's it's it's almost my buddy brought it up the other day It goes it's kind of it's closer to castaway Yeah, in a certain extent where it's like no I do a lot of scenes by myself talking to myself and all yeah

I'm really just in like yeah, like I can probably count on you know just Definitely on one hand, but probably on like two or three fingers how many scenes I were Shot that other side later exactly yeah, this is going on over here That's going on over there, and then finally it all happens You know at the end even the chronic you know like across the Roper things like that happens, you know at the end even the crawling, you know, like across the Roper things like that Or like, you know the tarantula you kind of like things like that's all that's That's all like not in the same room also because I can only work X amount of hours a day, too So they had to figure out how to be economical about it. Yep

Yeah So you didn't get to really hang out with like Katherine O'Hara or pesky or not really because also I'm not working with them Like, you know, I mean, even though we're in the same movie. I'm not working with them It's so sad to know how the fucking sausage is made sometimes. Right, right, exactly. You can hear that episode for free in whatever podcast feed you're using.

It's episode 883 with Macaulay Culkin. To get every episode of WTF ad free and bonus episodes twice a week, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF plus and a reminder before we go This podcast is hosted by a cast So So So So So So So So So Boomer lives! Monkey and Lafond the cat angels everywhere.