WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1542 - Molly Ringwald

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

There was a time when Molly Ringwald knew she had to get out of America for a while so she didn’t have to be That Girl anymore. Now, with a career that includes being a jazz singer, a novelist, and a translator of French literature, Molly is much more than That Girl. Molly and Marc talk about her early days on The Facts of Life, her global stardom in the John Hughes movies, and her current day projects, including the recent season of Feud: Capote vs The Swans. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions. At Enterprise Mobility, we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities. Because if your business is on the road, we want to make sure it's on the road to success. Enterprise Mobility, moving you moves the world. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nick?

What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it again. Thanks for being here. Been a lot of great shows, a lot of good shows coming up, a lot of great conversations. I don't know what it is. I think because this is such an essential part of my social life, I've been pretty engaged as usual, but even more so. I think it's because I have another job going on and I know, I'm a little in disarray a little outside of my patterns and

when I when I sit down and focus and You know I have to talk to folks that I'm just meeting for the first time about their lives and how they Intersect with mine. I'm just like yeah, this is what I need. I need to talk to somebody I need to get out of me for a minute. But it's been pretty great. Anyway, welcome to the show. Molly Ringwald is here.

And I just watched her in that Truman Capote thing, Capote versus the Swans. And sometimes with Molly Ringwald, and I've not paid that close attention to her career over the years, though she's kept working, she's amazing. She's an amazing actress. And I mean, I knew her, we all knew her, right? Through the 80s with her roles in the John Hughes movies, 16 Candles, The Breakfast Club, Pretty and Pink. But she's been acting for like over 40 years.

She's also a jazz singer, a dancer, a professional translator of French literature. Yeah, I just said that she's a professional translator of French literature. What? Yeah. I mean, people have expansive lives, you know, in our minds and in the cultural mind, someone could be this one thing. And then you learn they do like all these other things and they're just having a full life. And people are going like, oh, what happened to her? What happened to him?

Well, he's out there having a full life just because he's not on your dumb radar. She's not on your dumb radar. Doesn't imply anything other than, you know, you're not connected to them anymore. Whatever. I, well, let's do this first. You know, Morgan Spurlock, the documentary filmmaker who was famously did supersize me

died on Thursday at 53 years old. That's fucking tragic. 53 years old. His family said he was suffering from cancer. And the thing is we never did, Morgan and I never did a full WTF episode, but he was on a live episode in 2011. It was recorded at the Bell House in Brooklyn. It's episode 213. And we thought we'd just play a segment. It's a live episode. Ira Glass is also on the stage.

And this is Morgan Spurlock, you know, back in the day. It's like a long time ago already. Like, what is it, 13 years? Wow. The first time I met Morgan Spurlock, I had no idea who he was and neither did you. It was like, I can't even remember what year it was But I get this call do you remember how it would have been like 2002?

I don't even know how it happened, but he's like I got this great idea All right, it's an animated thing and we're gonna do a bunch of them and and he goes it's called Tommy Tourette's Alright, so you better than Mark Maron for that care, right? Yeah, so you had this big vision like this is like pre-supervised me This I had this wet a web company And so the whole goal was to create programming on the internet that we were then gonna sell off to like, you know TV show right but there was a million other people had that brilliant idea Yeah, but at no point did either of us think that it was in any way offensive to people that might suffer from this This is a genius idea. Yeah

So but wasn't the idea was it was a series of animated shorts of this character that just can't control himself in a work environment. That's right. So your idea was like, we'll have Tommy Tourette's 2.0, and then you'll just keep upgrading, and everybody will want this thing. And it was just a guy that walked around the office going,

is this the copier? Fuck, and I can't stand this shit. Fuck that. And you were like, this is great. That's exactly right. And so we started off, we launched the whole thing, we're like, we couldn't afford to do the whole series. And we said, well, you know what we'll do?

We'll do like South Park. Yeah. And like South Park launched with like a Christmas episode. So what we'll do is we'll make a Christmas card where Tommy Tourette's will sing, we wish you a Merry Christmas. That's right. And so we made this animated Tommy Tourette's Christmas card

where you could up the level of Tourette's in the video as you watched it So it was like we wish you a fuck shit fucking done, Mary fuck Chris that right That's exactly right. So we said that out at Christmas and That was the end of it And then all of a sudden I see you like then Super Size Me happens in what year? 2004. It premiered. And then it's like I know that guy that's the Tommy Tourette's guys. And then I realized like this dude. I have no idea what you're talking about. What do you mean?

But then you did that other thing where you I remember being part of that too where or at least witnessing it where you walked around Washington Square trying to get people to eat poop and stuff. That was when we were doing the same Tommy Tretz thing We created this web show called I bet you will where we would bet people to do stupid things for money Yeah And so so what we did is we go out and bet people do stupid things and one of things was we created we had a prop Guy make fake poo that we planted in the park It was fake it was fake it wasn't real poo

And did some guy eat it and so we bet some guy to eat it. And so we paid him like 500 bucks to eat this fake poo. He thought it was real poo. So it was all just like this fantastic psychological warfare that was going on. Did somebody did that for $500? Yeah. See, he's talking about poop for the rest of his life now, Ira. That's right. That show was not on NPR.

No. I'm just thinking about, so you tell him after, like when does he figure out that it's fake? Oh no, we never told him. No, we never told him., we never know on the first bite He still thinks he's the guy who ate poo on it so what did it taste like like what flavor did I didn't even try it It smelled so bad. I didn't even go there. So the guy's brown flavor with chunks You made something that was disgusting as actual poop, but it was made out of real food It was made out of real food and cheese products.

But it looked and it had the same consistency of a fine dog log. Yes. Yes. See that? We should find this guy. He should be on an episode of This American Life. I don't know. Like remember the old John Waters film where, yeah, where Devine eats the poo?

That was real poo. That was real poo. You saw it come out of the dog that's the way we roll in Baltimore that's right it comes out of the dog represent and I don't know how I feel about this poo fakery that you're introducing to American cinema my good man I know well this aired on MTV I wouldn't know if I call it cinema how did you feel about Divine Eating Pooh when you saw it it was it was amazing it was shocking it was it was mind-blowing. World-changing. So all right, so then you go from there to the eating poop and then you make this

rocking documentary. We sold that show to MTV and we ended up doing 53 episodes of this show for MTV and then when they cancelled the show we had, because at that point I had amassed about a quarter of a million dollars in credit card debt after post-9-11. Like I couldn't, there was no jobs, there's no production, and so I kept my company going with credit cards, paying people with credit cards. And so during the course of making that show, I paid off about $50,000 worth of that debt and made about 50 grand. So I had like 50 grand in the bank, and so I said, well, I could either take this $50,000

and throw it into that bottomless pit of debt, or we could make a movie. Because that's logical. You know, as a film. Yeah. And so we got the idea for Super Size Me and that's what we made. And that was your, yeah, that was it, that launched you. Yeah.

A guy who almost kills himself eating shitty things made you a star. See, I threw up out of a window. Yeah. Just like national public regurgitation. Yeah. It was fantastic. So it was just like, so now we have that in common.

Yeah, we do. It's like we have bonded now over vomiting. We have. Yeah, okay, but then you went on to do, there's a lot of things. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, is your vision, like what was the series called where you have people live uncomfortably?

30 days. Yeah, that wasn't kind of the mission, but it just kind of happened. So the idea with that was like, let's take this guy. You take somebody, yeah, you take somebody. I'm not being condescending, I just don't have bad memory. It's just your nature. Yeah, it's just a.

No, I'm not, I really. Okay, wait, let me ask you a question, my what the fuck audience. Would you rather I do research? Look, I fucking have his wiki page right here. I could have been like, I could have made notes and his credits, you know, I understood, did I get to the kernel of what the show was?

Yes. Okay, moving on. No, I enjoyed the two episodes I saw. The only thing was like, you'd take people and put them in a situation where they'd have to kind of question their own beliefs. Like in a situation kind of antithetical to their own. And it would make them very uncomfortable. Right, but it was good, right? Did you find, like people, did you learn from that? Did people learn? Did you go back when, didn't you put like a Christian dude in a gay household or something?

Yeah, there was a guy who ended up living and moving into the Castro with a gay guy who was completely against homosexuals in the military and gay marriage and gay rights. And how did that end up for that guy? It was amazing. I could change that guy's life. The two guys became friends. Do you follow up with these people?

Well, there's the best story that came out of that episode is Ed, there was, you know, the gay guy in the episode, Ed was walking down the street in the Castro and this guy comes up and hugs him after the show. And he's like, what is that for? He goes, I gotta tell you, I came out to my parents seven years ago and they threw me out of the house and they haven't called me, they haven't written to me,

they won't talk to me. And 15 minutes after that show aired last week, they called me for the first time. And so, which was amazing. You know, so that's fucking great. Yeah, so to have something like that happen out of a show is incredible. That is incredible.

And now what are you working on now? Didn't you just have one at a festival? I just had a film at the Toronto International Film Festival called Comic-Con Episode Four, A Fan's Hope, that we filmed at a San Diego Comic-Con last year. Can you spoil it a little bit? Has anyone seen it? It's a film that's all about kind of the geek-tastic

universe of San Diego Comic-Con. And it's a film that we made with kind of the geek-tastic universe of San Diego Comic-Con. It's a film that we made with Stan Lee and Joss Whedon. We followed seven different people into Comic-Con. I tell the story of this kind of nerd mecca through their experiences. Nerd mecca. And are you satisfied with it? You like it? It's great. I love the way the film came out. It's spectacular. Now what's this project you wanted me to be part of? There's a show that we do.

There's a show that we do for Hulu called A Day in the Life, which we've been doing for... Thank you, that guy saw it. That's the thank you. Thanks for watching. That's the power of Hulu. That one guy. Thank you, sir. Tell your other friend. Season finale this Wednesday. So each episode we spend one day with somebody like from the minute they wake up to the minute they go to bed and I

think you'd be great for the next season. Oh that'd be that. What do you guys think? Let's build it around an event like maybe a doctor's visit or something. Yeah, something, yeah. Something. Perfect. Or go to Whole Foods with me. Like, that... And I'll steal something. Yeah. Or maybe we can make the rounds. Like, I have this... Look, I'm not gonna pitch myself to you,

but I appreciate the offer. So where do you gotta go now? I know you gotta leave. I'm part of a benefit tonight for Burma Relief that I gotta go to tonight. So I'm part of one of the hosts for the thing. Oh, you're gonna host a segment? I'm like, no, no, I'm like of a benefit tonight for Burma relief that I gotta go to tonight. So I'm part of one of the hosts for the thing. Oh, you're gonna host a segment? I'm like, no, no, I'm like one of the people who's like hosting this benefit to raise money for Burma.

What time does that start? It starts at seven. Now I feel guilty. Yeah, see, I'm not kidding. It's true. What are your duties at this thing? You didn't even dress. No, I'm gonna change in the car. It's like I got my suit in the car. And then are you gonna go on stage and make a speech about healing? Yeah, exactly.

Really? Healing. What are you gonna say? I'm gonna say we should all do our part to pitch in and help. Wow. Thank you guys. Thank you guys, please. Dig deep. Everybody dig deep.

Morgan Smerlock. Ira Glass just gave Morgan a dollar for Burma. Thanks a lot, buddy. Good to see you. So at the end of that, he said he was going to invite me onto A Day in the Life, which was a TV thing he did, a documentary thing he did, and I did it.

He made good on that, and I did it. On that episode of A Day in the Life, he captured me with Mindy Kaling, not the whole interview, but her coming and going in a few minutes, I think, but there is a beat in that episode of her leaving my house in her car, and it just, the back end of her car just scrapes

on the bottom of my driveway, And I always, I always loved that beat. I don't know what to tell you. I'm performing up here in Vancouver on Friday, June 21st at the Vogue Theater. I'm actually recording this at home in California, but I will be in Vancouver Friday, June 21st at the Vogue Theater. I'm in Seattle on Saturday, June 22nd at the Moore Theater. That show, I don't think it's sold out yet, but it's going pretty well. The last time I was there, man, that was crazy, right?

That was when the ghost attack happened and the lights started going on and off and it was crazy. That Moore's got a bit of a haunted vibe. In the fall, I'm coming to Tucson, Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Dallas, Houston, Oklahoma City, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Boulder, Colorado, Joliet, Illinois, Skokie, Illinois, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sacramento, and Napa, California. And none of us know the world we'll be living in at that time, post-November. You know, I hope it's still safe to perform comedy.

We'll see. Or my comedy, I should say. It's certainly gonna be safe for a certain ilk. But you can get all my dates, including the ones from the summer that I had to reschedule. You can just go to wtfpod.com slash tour and do that. It was pretty great to come home for a few days. I think this is gonna work out okay. Because when I come home, I just lock right into the life and the patterns

and the cats and the girlfriend and my stuff. And it definitely grounds me. So I'm glad that it functions that way. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. And you've heard me talk about Squarespace for years, but now there's even more reason to get up to speed with the latest Squarespace tools. They have a completely new design system called Squarespace Blueprint, which is how you build your online presence

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That's squarespace.com slash WTF, offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain that's squarespace.com slash WTF offer code WTF get started today. I Was pretty thrilled to to talk to Molly Ringwald and she actually came to see me in Montclair, New Jersey You know, I told her I was performing there and she wanted to come and she came out and it was funny because I did And she was she came to the show and after the show she was there and I didn't recognize her at all. She was wearing these dark glasses

and I don't see Molly Ringwald that often and she doesn't look the same. She looks great. But she was like, great show. And I just kept saying thank you. And part of my brain was like, I know I should know this person. And I'm like, oh my God.

It was ridiculous. It was one of those moments where I'm like, am I getting it? am I getting it? Am I getting it? Is dementia happening? Is it? Molly is here. She played Joanne, the wife of Johnny Carson

on the recent season of Feud, Capote versus the Swans. You can stream the entire season right now on Hulu. It was a good show. She was great. And I was excited to meet her and talk to her. This is me and Molly Ringwald. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions. At Enterprise Mobility, we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities.

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No hikes, no hidden fees, just one fair and fixed price. And Oxio knows you depend on the internet because they do too So they make sure to deliver reliable internet with lightning fast speeds and when their customer service says we understand they mean it Visit oxy o dot ca for internet from a provider that actually gives a damn and use the promo code Wtf mark at checkout to get your first month free. That's oxy o dot ca promo code WTFmark at checkout to get your first month free. That's Oxxio.ca promo code WTFmarc. So I watched a lot of the Feud. I didn't know a lot about any of that.

Where did you tap out? Well, I mean, I went through the first four and then I kind of went in and out. Like I just didn't get it done. I didn't really tap out. I find it pretty interesting. He's an interesting guy. Yeah.

But like when you have to to do a part like that, like play Johnny Carson's wife in that world in that time era, what do you do? Did you read all, because he died with your character. Yeah, I already actually knew a lot about True Mukhopodi because coincidentally my first play that I ever did when I was three years old was a Truman Capote. It was the Grass Harp, which was based on a book

or a novella, I think, of his, or story. So you had a handle on him when you were three. I did, like I knew who Truman Capote was at the same time as Dr. Seuss. Did you meet him? Was he dead already? No. No, no, no, he was alive. I was like, and it was just- Did you meet him? Was he dead already? No.

No, no, no, he was alive. Like in the 70s, I used to watch him on Johnny Carson or whatever my parents were watching and loaded out of his mind. And I was like, what's wrong with them, mom? And he's drunk. But I was really interested. I mean, just his name alone,

Truman Capote just sounded so cool. And so later when I got to be older, I started to read his stuff and, you know, I love his writing. I feel like he was really one of the greatest American writers there is. So I already knew a lot about his story. I didn't know that much about Joanne other than that, So I already knew a lot about his story. Right.

I didn't know that much about Joanne other than that, you know, like the last decade, I think they spent together. They were really tight. And they were sort of outcasts together. And apparently after he died, she sort of like guarded his ashes, like would walk around with his ashes.

Really? Yeah. Yeah, she was like really, really loved him. guarded his ashes, like would walk around with his ashes. Really? Yeah. Yeah. She was like really, really loved him. I think she was really one of the only people that seemed to love him unconditionally. It's interesting that these women all really loved him, at least for a minute. Yeah. I don't know how much the other women loved him, to be honest.

I mean, in feud, you know, they... Yeah, I don't know how much the other women loved him, to be honest. I mean, in feud, you know, they, yeah, I don't know. I don't really know. I feel like they were amused by him. Yeah. And I think that he was- A confidant. He was a confidant. Right. And I think that he was a lot more fun than their husbands.

Right. And I think that he was a lot more fun than their husbands. And I think that they liked that, but I don't really feel like they necessarily had that much respect for his writing. I think that Joanne really, really admired him as a writer and really wanted to facilitate his writing. So like, I'm just asking you now, the reason I'm starting here only is just because of acting in general. Mm-hmm.

Because, like, you did the part in Dahmer, too, and you still, these are, like, pretty emotionally heavy parts, kind of, right? Yeah. Because I've talked to a lot of actors. Everybody's gonna prepare differently. Yeah. But, like, when you're gonna do something like Dahmer stepmom,

like, what do you do to, like, where do you start? You know, I always start somewhere different depending on the character that I'm playing. Yeah. You know, and usually, you know, sometimes I just understand the character immediately. Like, I did this really small part in the bear. Yeah, yeah. And it was just a monologue, basically. And it was so well written. I just, I felt like I understood that character.

Through the words. Through the words, I had an immediate idea about who she was. I didn't have to like go and interview anyone or talk to anyone. I knew immediately who she was. So that was really easy. You know, other people like Dahmer, like for me that started that that part started with the accent so I had to get the accent right. So I talked to a friend who was from the area, I asked her to literally just read my lines into a phone, you know, just so I could hear. I was like, don't act it, let

me just hear the accent. So like I kind of built that character around that accent. So once you got the accent down, it started to come together. Yeah, and then there's other characters that you have to do sort of a lot of research on. If they're like, let's say a drug addict, I've never, they're a heroin addict. I'm not gonna go do heroin, but I might go and talk to people who have.

So I think it really depends. There's like different ways into a character. I think like I overthink a lot of things and I think like the more you talk to actors, they've all got something they do, but there's no set way to do it. And I think a lot of it is relatively instinctual if you're not completely transformative.

I mean, there are certain people that can do that thing, but that seems to be a whole other level of thing. Yeah, yeah. Did you, have you taken, I assume you've taken a few acting classes. Years ago, you know, and then I had a series on IFC and I just kind of did four seasons of a guy based on me. And once, I think so much of it is being able to be present and listen, you know, and I knew I'd be awkward,

but I got it out of my system, I think. Yeah, but you're a good listener. I mean, you have to be having done this for so long. You're good at sort of listening to people and acting and reacting and, yeah. But do you ever freak out? Like, I can't do this role? No, I don't do this role um

No, I don't think so the only time I freak out I think is when I'm doing something and the writing is not great and the but the writer is really super precious about it that that has happened before and that That makes me freak out a little bit because I think I want to make it better and I want to be as good as I can and you're not letting me do that. Yeah. And I always find that it's the writers that are not that great who do that. It's like the writers that I've worked with who are you know really great were so not precious about... Collaborative. Yeah they were collaborative. Yeah yeah. You know? Yeah, I mean, like, I think that sometimes

when you see lines that are clunkers or that they don't make emotional sense or they're just not something someone would say, it's gonna fuck up your ability to stay in the character. Yeah, oh yeah, I did this thing once. I'm not gonna say who it was, but this person was so precious about their writing and it made absolutely no sense.

And I didn't know how to act it because I can't act something that I don't understand myself. It makes it really hard. It makes it really hard to remember the lines if you can't in your mind. Get a logic. Yeah, to get a through line, you know. And I tried and I tried and this person was very reluctant

and finally I just gave up and I had to learn it as though it were like a foreign language. Like I had to learn it like it was just kind of like a bad song, you know? But I could remember it just by the sound. And that was really disheartening. And that was a low point. Were you able to watch yourself in it?

I don't watch anything I do. Really? No. Ever? Well, I mean, I have, I have. When I was younger, I used to watch stuff and then I've gone back and I've watched those like early movies that I did with John Hughes,

like with my kids as an experience. But no, I don't watch, I don't watch stuff that I do now. I mean, I will if I have to, if I go to like a premiere or something like that. Right. If I'm in it, I don't watch stuff that I do now. I mean, I will if I have to, if I go to like a premiere or something like that, if I'm in it, I will, but I won't say I enjoy it, I don't enjoy it. Why? I mean, what's the experience?

I don't know, I mean, it's probably vanity, it's probably like I have an older face now and I'm not used to, like it could be that. But it's not like, oh shit, I didn't nail that one line. Well, it's that too. Yeah, yeah. It's that too. Why'd they use that take?

Yeah, yeah, that too. I don't know, it just like, it's, I kind of got out of the habit and then once you get out of the habit of watching yourself, I just don't enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's other stuff I'd rather be doing than watching myself.

Like I already did it, you know? Why do I need to watch it? Well, I just had a realization in talking to you just about that now that I watch myself, but I think it's primarily to be critical. And you know, that's a part of your brain you don't want active anyway. So if that's all it does is reinforce that

with the occasional like, no, I did all right on that. It's not really good. I feel like I know when I'm, when I've been doing it for long enough to where I know if the work that I've done is good, I can feel it. And then sometimes, particularly on, if you're in a series that goes for a long time and it's really fast and it's not particularly well written,

you kind of know that your work is maybe a little subpar and that just breaks my heart. It's like crazy making and I just don't wanna do that. And you don't know what a director's gonna do with it or an editor's gonna do with it. It's so out of your control. But you work a lot. You've never really stopped working.

No, I've been pretty consistent, yeah. And you grew up where? I grew up in Sacramento until I was 10. Sacramento. Until I was 10. I think I always say that in that tongue, Sacramento. I know, me too. But now it's like there's some pretty cool people

from Sacramento. Me, well, Joan Didion, of course, first, me, and now Greta Gerwig. Greta Gerwig, yeah. And Lady Bird was all Sacramento, wasn't it? Yeah. That's not enough. Good try. Yeah, nice try, Sacramento. Yeah, I grew up there till I was 10, in actually a suburb of Sacramento called Citrus Heights.

Is that nice? It does have the distinction now of being, I grew up like a couple miles away from where the Golden State Killer lived. Oh, good for you. The guy they caught after like 30 years. Yeah, he was known as the East Area Rapist though when I was growing up.

Oh, so they shifted the nomenclature on that guy. Yeah, well they found out that he wasature on that guy. Yeah, well, they found out that he was actually three different ones. Wasn't he an ex-cop or something? Yeah, he was. He was, he was an ex-cop. Yeah, so that's the distinction of where I'm from. There's another one, add him to the list.

Yeah. Yeah. What an amazing place. Yeah. So why'd you guys move? We moved when I was 10. My dad was a musician and- Like what kind?

He was a jazz musician. Piano? Piano, banjo, bass. He could play all that stuff. And yeah, piano and a little guitar, but piano was his main instrument. And was he like a real jazz guy? I mean, was he in the game?

He was in the game, but his particular kind of jazz was sort of like more old-timey jazz. He was kind of part of the, you know, like the traditional jazz scene in the 70s. He called himself, my father died in 21. Sorry. So yeah, thanks. Not so long ago. And yeah, so he- Like bebop or hard bop or big bands? No, like earlier, earlier, earlier than that. Like traditional, like, you know, Dixieland, traditional kind of like, you know, Louis Armstrong, Sid and the Shay,

that sort of stuff. And he kind of stuck in that? Yeah, he stuck in that. That was his, you know, he started of stuff. And he kind of stuck in that? Yeah, he stuck in that. That was his, you know, he started when he started playing, he grew a beard when he was like, I don't know, 15 years old. My dad was blind too. And he grew a beard so he could gig when he was like 15 years old.

I think he had his first band when he was 13 years old. Where'd he grow up? Sacramento. Oh, so the so yeah, okay. So it wasn't like he's from New Orleans or something. No, no. He just took to that music. No, yeah, and he got married when he was, my mom was 19, he was 20, and-

So the beard worked. Yeah, and then they had kids, and so he, you know, so he supported the family, did whatever, you know, he could, my dad, like, you know, gigged all the time and, you know, but he didn't travel a lot because of the family. So like at a restaurant or something,

you had a regular gig? Yeah, everything, like piano bar, like, you know, just anything. And then of course, like played festivals, it was instrumental in starting this big jazz festival in Sacramento. But that's kind of how I got started was I started performing with my dad at a really young age.

What songs? Well, I was big into Bessie Smith. Wow, could you belt it out? Oh yeah. Yeah, I was a big belter. Yeah, that's always impressive out of a kid. You're like, where does a kid have that much soul? But you could just mimic it, probably, right?

Yeah, I mean, I felt it. It was also like I was really close to my dad and so it was a big bond connection that we had. Anyway, so to answer your question when, why we moved to LA, I, at that point, I think I was 10 years old, and I got a part in a play called Annie. Of course.

And- In LA. In LA. So it had left New York. No, I live in New York now, but at the time, I left- No, but the play had. Oh yeah. So it had its run, it was big. That's right.

It was the first West Coast production. So you're like the second Annie? Well, I wasn't Annie, I was one of the play had. Oh yeah. So it had its run, it was big. That's right. It was the first West Coast production. So you're like the second Annie? Well, I wasn't Annie, I was one of the orphans. Oh. I was part of the ensemble. Who was Annie? A girl named Patty Patz. What's she up to?

I don't know. You didn't keep in touch, huh? No, no. Yeah, so at the time, I think it was thought of that we would, you know, I would do that and it would be, there would be more opportunity for my dad and so, yeah, we moved to LA. And did that work out for both of you? Well, it worked out for me. Yeah.

How about your pop? My parents didn't really like LA very much, so as soon as I, I was the last of three kids. Really? How old is your oldest, Sib? Well, she's four years older than me, and my, or three and a half, I would say. And my brother is two years older. None of them went into the arts?

They did when they were younger. They both were interested in acting, but I was the only one that stuck with it. So what'd your mom do? My mom? Yeah. What does she do now? Well, what did she do when you were growing up?

Just manage three kids? She was just a mom, yeah. She was a stay-at-home mom. Jeez, that's hard life to have a musician dad, and in a sense of like, it couldn't have been, had to be pretty tight. Yeah. Three kids. Yeah. I mean, we were like, you know, pretty middle-class,

but they were, you know, hard, hard workers. And my, I think I had a great mom. I had great parents. Yeah. My mom's still, you know, still around, but yeah, I kind of lucked out there. That's good. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You didn't get that. Yeah, because that can be a liability for the rest of your life. Yeah. To have bad parents. Yeah.

But so after Annie, what happens? You get an agent? I got an agent and- And you're 10. I'm 10, yep. Yeah. And so I did that until I was, well, 15 months, I did that. And then, you know, while I was that until I was, well, 15 months, I did that.

And then, you know, while I was doing, you know, eventually you age out of doing that show. Like you get taller. Yeah, yeah, basically. That's probably a gift. Yeah. Well, at the time it's really kind of heartbreaking because, you know, when you're little

and it's all you know is doing this show. It's like it becomes your whole life. I did it for 15 months. So a little over a year. And then, but I did get an agent and so I started auditioning for stuff and then I got a television series right after that. So I had like a week off

and then I went right into a television series called The Facts of Life. Yeah, I did that for a year. That's a, that was a big show. That was a big show. I was just, I just did the first season of that. What happened to you? Uh, they, they decided that they wanted to make it four girls instead of, like, originally it started out

with like, I don't know, 12 girls, or I don't remember how many there were. And then they wanted to narrow it down to four and originally I was gonna be one of the four. And then they changed their minds and then they basically said that they didn't want me to be a regular. So I was kind of let go from that.

It was sort of a natural transition from Annie, right? In terms of, well, yeah, it was all girls. There was a lot of them. Yeah, I mean, I didn't watch it. I don't remember it, but I remember the fact of it. Yeah, yeah. Now, like, so that's like your first big part and you get pushed out, but you did a year,

but do you experience the heartbreak of that? Oh, yeah. Oh, it sucked. And you're going out on auditions all the time too? I was going out on, yeah, I was auditioning and auditioning for commercials. I booked one commercial for California raisins. Really, when they were the dancing raisins?

No, no. Oh, before that. No, I was like a babysitter talking about how raisins were nature's candy. I still remember the whole monologue that I had. Yeah, I'll never forget it. I'll be on my deathbed and I'll be able to recite it. Yeah, you can put that on your tombstone.

Yeah. The raisin monologue. Yeah. So yeah, I did that and then I kept auditioning and then I got really, really close on a movie called Shoot the Moon with Diane Keaton. Oh yeah.

And then I didn't get that. Did you read with her? No, no I didn't, but I really wanted that and I remember not getting that and just being so heartbroken. What are you like 13 now? 14? 13, yeah.

And then right after that I got my first movie, which was Tempest with Paul Mozierski. That's a crazy movie. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's basically an independent movie that would never be made now for, you know. Well, Mozierski was kind of a character, right? Oh, did you know him at all? I didn't. Yeah, he was great.

I loved him. He was really a good director. And it was, you know, we filmed for a month in New York and then two months in Greece and then a month in Chinatown, Italy. And I mean, it was just, you know, it was crazy. A movie like that would never be made now. And did you, like, I imagine that along the way, did you ever take any formal acting training? A little bit.

I don't know if I'd had any acting training before I did that movie. I mean, we had like a couple classes or something. But most of the acting, I kind of learned on the job. So you're working with some pretty heavy hitters there. Yeah. And you're old enough to know that. Well, I didn't really know that.

I mean, I didn't know who anyone was. I was 13 and you don't really know who John Cassavetes is when you're 13. But what was the impact? I mean, like in Jen Rollins too, I mean, like how? Oh, it changed my life. Yeah. I mean, at that, before then, I was pretty sure,

I didn't know if I was gonna be a singer or if I was gonna be, you know, a dancer or like I knew I was gonna sure, I didn't know if I was gonna be a singer or if I was gonna be a dancer, like I knew I was gonna do something, or theater, because I had started to do theater. But I was absolutely sure 100% that I wanted to make movies after that, that I was just, it was the best experience of my life and it was life-changing.

But I also thought that every movie was gonna be like that, when you have this incredible experience. Did you spend time with them, with Cassavetes? Oh yeah, I mean, we were in Greece. It was supposed to be an island, but it was filmed in the Peloponnesus, southern Greece, very remote.

And it was just like, it was like a summer camp, you know? It was completely wild and transformative. And I really kind of grew, I went from being a little girl to being a teenager, you know, in that summer. Did your parents have to go, one of them? My mom went with me, and then my dad and my siblings came after, so they got to be there. But I can't imagine, like, Jenna Rollins is like, what, I mean, she's so amazing. She's amazing. She was a little terrifying to me. There was something that's always been very imperious about, you know, she just has this presence.

And, you know, I felt very comfortable with John. Like, John was fun and he was, like, I won't say he was like a kid, but he just, I was very comfortable. I just felt so comfortable with him. And with Jenna, I was a little bit more, I don't know, but it kind of worked because I was supposed to be kind of like a dad's girl

in the movie. You know? And then Susan Sarandon was in it too. Oh my God, so much intensity. Yeah, and Raul Julia. I mean, it was an incredible cast. It was a great experience. So that's like a master's class.

Pretty much. I mean, I didn't even know what ad-libbing was. I didn't know what improvisation was. And he had to do that? Yeah, we had a two-week rehearsal period before, and there's a scene after John's character has caught his wife, Jenna, Jenna's character in an affair, and they're having sort of like this argument,

this marriage-ending argument, and I kind of become involved and become part of the argument. That sounds like a Cassavetes movie. Yeah, and I had memorized all my lines, I think before my first day of work. Like, I had memorized the entire script, and I before my first day of work, like I had memorized the entire script and I was super prepared.

And then this scene is happening and all of a sudden all the lines are different and John's just going off and like talking about, and I had no, and I just panicked and I thought like, what did I do? And of course I thought like, I did something wrong and so I- Did I not get the right script?

Yeah, yeah. And so I did the scene and then I said, I have to go now and walk downstairs where my dad was and climbed into his lap, bursting into tears. I was like convinced that I was gonna be fired. You know, that was it. And then Jenna was the one that took me aside and said, you know, just so you know,

John will say everything that's not in the script that took me aside and said, just so you know, John will say everything that's not in the script. That's what he does. But he'll always give you your lead in line. He'll always give you that line, and when you hear it, you have to jump in. And that's how I learned what improvisation was. And I never forgot.

And it was great, you know? But it was a little scary. Yeah, I imagine. That's such an intense baptism in filmmaking with those two. And I saw it, like I watched, you were in the Criterion closet. You said Fellini came by the set?

Yeah, he came by. And I remember like there was a feeling on the set, like Paul was really, you know, he adored Fellini. That was his favorite filmmaker. And they were, I think, kind of close. And yeah, he came by and Bellissimo and kissed me on the top of the head. I had no idea.

I had never seen a Fellini movie. Yeah, when did you start watching Fellini movies? I mean, after I did Tempest. It was like, I went and I watched every Cassavetes movie that I could see. At like 14? Yeah, yeah. It wasn't that easy to watch, you know,

the films of those people. Yeah. To find them. Yeah. But yeah, that was really my education. So what happens after Tempest? After Tempest, I did a couple of unforgettable movies, Space Hunter Adventures in the Forb forbidden zone in 3D. I did, yeah, some movies that were not that great.

And then I did 16 Candles when I was 15. The life changer. And the life, yeah, everything changed. Yeah, I mean, I know you probably talk about it a lot, but I mean, that must have been pretty crazy. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, I didn't know that my life was going to change, but it definitely did.

I never thought that everything was gonna happen that fast, that everything was gonna explode. Like you never know that that, like your podcast, you never knew that it was gonna take off. You're just kinda like doing things and doing what's interesting to you and then all of a sudden something catches on and you're like, oh, okay.

And do you look, I mean, I know you've talked about it, but I mean, do you look back at those movies, do you have conflicting feelings about them? Yeah, I do. I've written about my feelings about them. I've written a couple articles in the New Yorker. Yeah, I mean, I still love them. I still have a lot of affection for them.

I still feel like there's something important about them. And they also still, they still, I mean, judging from just my kids' reaction, because there's nothing that can make my kids put down their phone, but they didn't pick up their phone while they were watching it, and it's not because they were being polite to me. They don't worry about that.

They just honestly were intrigued. So he captured something about teenage sensibility that is kind of universal. I think so. Yeah. And, but like it's weird because even my, you know, recollection or not my recollection, but my knowledge of you being on my radar, you know,

I mean, there was that period there where it was like, you were everywhere. And then there was a matter of time, then it's sort of like, oh yeah, what has she been doing? But you never stopped working. No, I never stopped working, but I did move out of the country, which kind of slowed things down a little bit.

And I would kind of come back and I would do stuff. Where'd you go? I went to France. Just to live? Just to live, yeah. And you, why? I feel like I'd been working for a long time. And- So wait, so when did you do that?

After what movie? I was 24. Oh, okay. So you did all these movies with all these guys, like the pickup artists, I mean, you were working with Downey at that age? I worked with him, I think 1920 when I did that. And was that, were you concerned about him?

Was I concerned about him? Yeah, I was a little. I was. I always thought he was super talented. I had wanted him to play a part in Pretty in Pink. He was the guy that I wanted for the part that John Cryer ended up playing, who was great. I mean, nothing against John, but yeah, I always thought that Downey was really super talented. That's right.

But he was incredibly self-destructive, which I mean, he's been really super honest about, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Open and honest about his addiction issues. Yeah. That was clearly going on. Yeah. And what about the crew from the Breakfast Club?

Because I remember there was a period, like, so that's like 85, so I'm pretty, I'm relatively grown up, I'm in college, but that movie resonated with everybody because of the sort of archetypes that they captured. And I wasn't that far away from high school. But it seemed to be like a cultural identifier for like, it seemed like everybody. And all of these actors, you know, somehow or another, whatever shift you made,

kind of enabled you to have a life. Me? Yeah. Yeah, but I feel like I really needed to get out of America in order to kind of have my, you know, I had been working for so long that I didn't have any experience of what it was like to be a person, you know, that was always being looked at. But looked at in a very certain way. Yeah.

Like you're that girl. Yeah. Like you're that girl. Yeah, yeah. I was that girl for a while, and I felt like I needed to know what it felt like to not be that girl and to just kind of figure out what it is that I wanted to do. I had stopped to really, you know, also I wasn't really getting,

I was in a really weird, I was so young that I didn't really feel like I was getting, I was too young for everything. It's really funny how you go, like you're too young for everything and then all of a sudden, like you're too old. But like at that time, I was too young. And once they couldn't typecast you in a way,

then, because like, it's, it, there's sort of, there's something when I'm not the first to say it, but there, there is something tragic about the trajectory of a lot of child actors. Yeah. Because it doesn't, you know, either they change physically or they don't really have the goods as they get older to continue working in, at a level. And sometimes it's just, it gets pretty sad. Yeah.

But you avoided that. I did, I did. Did you miss it at first though? No, I mean, I went to France and I was, I fell in love with France and then I fell in love with somebody in France. And it was great. I really feel like it was something that I needed to do.

I learned how to write, I learned how to speak French, I learned. You didn't know before you just- I spoke a little French because I did go to a French school, but I was also working all the time when I was in high school. So in order to get good at a language, you really have to do it every day. So I mean, I did speak a little bit of French,

but not enough to really, I didn't consider myself fluent. And you stay on top of it now? Yeah, every day. Really? Yeah. How so? How do you do that?

I do Duolingo every day. Because you just don't wanna lose it? Yeah, I mean, I also translate books too. I translated a couple books from English to French. You just get hired for that? You're available for that? I mean, that's not like a celebrity turn to be a translator. No, it's not, and it's not very lucrative either.

No, it really was something that a friend of mine who was in, at the time she was an editor at Scribner, I've also written books of my own as well. It was her idea and she had acquired this book and she knew that I spoke French because she had edited an essay that I had written when she was an editor at a magazine. Yeah. And she said, I have this crazy idea and, you know, why don't you translate this book? And I said, no, I'm not going to. I was a horrible student. I put all my focus into speaking French, so I have a really good accent.

But I was like, there's no way. And she's like, well, I really think you can do it. And I said, OK, well, I'll read a little bit of it. And if I think I can do it and if I like the book, then, I'll read a little bit of it. And if I think I can do it, and if I like the book, then maybe, but don't count on it. And then I, I don't know, I started to read it. And I thought this, how, it just seemed like something that would be cool, that I would enjoy doing.

And so I did it. And it's a really good book. And it's become sort of like a, it's like a gay love story love story in the 80s. Which book? It's called Lie With Me. And you translated it from English to French? From French to English.

Oh, okay. Yeah, French to English. Because certain French words have several different meanings, and so you have to kind of, there's a poetry to it. You gotta figure out. Yeah, yeah. So it's gotta help you as a writer in general.

Yeah, it does. It helps you as a writer. It's like an incredible mental challenge for me. And I discovered that it was like a puzzle. People can kind of space out and do a puzzle and they can like hyper-focus. And it kind of makes you only think about that. Like that kind of translating for me is like that.

And it feels like, I don't know, like you're like unlocking all these doors. And I think, how am I going to get across this? Like I can't, you can't literally just translate word for word. You have to like find the poetry and the music. And there's all these different ways that you can do it. You can open this door, you can open that door,

which, you know, it's like, there's just these different ways that you can do it. There's, you can open this door, you can open that door, which, you know, it's like, there's just something that's really, yeah, meditative for me. That's great. Well, before we go out of Hollywood to France, I mean, in terms of, like, so many of that generation got kind of fucked up. And, you know, and you were really coming up against,

you know, I imagine that Hollywood And you were really coming up against, I imagine that Hollywood was a fairly small town still then, really, in terms of the business. So you're like, I mean, you're coming up against all these old actors and there's this culture here. I mean, was there, did it feel menacing? You know, I never really felt like I was part of a community when I was in Hollywood, just because I was so young, really,

and basically kind of a shy, introverted person. I wasn't into kind of like going out to clubs. I wasn't like, I feel like I'm a little, I'm more social now than I was then. But I, you know, I was just too young. And I, it was awkward. Well, you're lucky you didn't get taken advantage of or got into some sort of horrible situation.

Oh, I was taken advantage. I didn't, you can't be a young actress in Hollywood and not, you know, and not have predators around. I mean, that's just, you know, but I wasn't be a young actress in Hollywood and not, and not, you know, not have predators around. I mean, that's just, you know, but I wasn't, I wasn't raped by Harvey Weinstein. So I'm grateful for that. But I also did write an essay for the New Yorker, which was like, it's not all Harvey Weinstein.

Like he's not the only one. Yeah, there was, I was definitely in unquestionable situations, but I do have an incredible survival instinct and a pretty big super ego and kind of managed to sort of figure out a way to protect myself. That's good.

But yeah, it can be harrowing. And I have a 20 year old daughter now who is going into the same profession, even though I did everything I could to convince her to do something else. Yeah. And it's hard. My parents didn't know anything about show business really.

When you're a traditional jazz musician, he was an entertainer, but neither one of them knew about Hollywood. So they didn't really know exactly what we were getting into. They just thought like, oh, I have this talented kid and everyone likes her and this is great. And sort of setting her up for life. Was that, did that compel you,

was that one of the reasons to leave? Was that you felt like, you know, it was mildly dangerous? No, I didn't really make the choice to move to France. I went there on a movie, and I was supposed to come back, I went in like May, I think it was, and I was supposed to come back, I went in like May, I think it was, and I was supposed to come back.

I had finally applied to college because I thought, well, okay, I guess I should do that because I'm not really reading anything that I'm loving right now, so I'll just go to college. And then I went to France and I just fell in love with France and felt amazing. No college. No college.

I didn't really know that I could have deferred and come back and gone to college, so I just decided not to go. And you fell in love in France. And then I fell in love with France and then I fell in love in France. With a guy. With a guy and yeah, I just decided to stay.

It was my only residence for, I don't know, a few years. And what kind of like, how were you approaching acting at that point? Well, I would come back and, you know, I would, like, I don't know, I'm trying to think of like the first thing I did after I moved. I think I got a I don't know, I'm trying to think of like the first thing I did after I moved, I think I got a part in The Stand, which was like a long television series. So I had to come back and do that for a while.

Was that the apocalyptic one? That was the apocalyptic one. Wow. But you did, like, oh, that's right, you did that. When did you do King Lear? I did King Lear actually before I moved to France. I did that when I was like, I think I was 20 or something, 19, 19 or 20. That was like a crazy odd production, right?

That was really crazy. Yeah, that was a Jean-Luc Godard film. So like, did you know who he was when you were going into that? I knew a little bit about him. I think not much though. I mean, I knew about sort of like more like the Jean-Luc Godard style. Sure.

But I didn't really know that much. But my agent at the time said, oh, he's an important filmmaker. And so I think after that, after they said that he wanted to meet with me, I watched Breathless. Right. And I was really kind of on that.

But by 87, he's doing different thing, right? Yeah. I mean, it was pretty experimental, right? Very experimental, yeah. And what was it like working with that guy? It was really cool. It was like, it was different, it was weird. It was like that I'd never done a movie

that had such a small crew. I'd never done something that was like so low budget that didn't. Yeah, it was wild. It was only like I was only there for I think, I don't know, like two weeks or something. Like did you get the sense of genius, how was he as a person? He was introverted and, and, and like sort of a prankster a little bit. I didn't know exactly. I didn't, honestly, I didn't really understand a lot of what he was saying, but

I thought he was interesting. I thought he was funny and interesting and weird. And I was interested. And I liked doing stuff like that. I liked doing stuff that wasn't necessarily that was expected of me at that time. And you never watched that one? No, I have seen that. It's beautiful.

It's actually one of the most beautiful movies I've done. Really? Yeah, I didn't know, there was no wardrobe person. There was no makeup person. It was one of the first questions I asked was, okay, well, where's the, you know, who can I talk to? And they were like, there's no wardrobe. There's no makeup.

He's gonna come by your room and just like pick out your clothes and, you know, and then he like came by and I had done my makeup and he was like, no, no, that's too much. Take it all off, all off, all off. And yeah, it was an interesting experience. Right, wow. I wrote an article about that for the New Yorker too.

You've done a lot of writing for the New Yorker. I've written three, four pieces for the New Yorker. That's recently? Yeah, I wrote that, well, about a year ago after he died it was sort of like a right right kind of an homage to him So is this gonna you think you're gonna? Do a book of essays or actually I'm working on Not a book of essays, but I'm working on a memoir right now about the the years in Paris Specifically, yeah the Paris years and. You married that guy, right?

I did. I married that guy. I married him when we probably should, you know, I did that thing where, you know, you're with someone and I think it was like seven years and we should have split up, but instead we got married. I've done that twice. Oh, really? Yeah.

I think it was more for me, what was it? instead we got married. I've done that twice. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. I think it was more for me, what was it? It was like three and a half, four years, and then got married and then we hit seven and things went wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I did the seven year thing and then it took me another like three years to get out of it

because I didn't, I wanted to be nice. You know, and it was hard. I mean, he was a significant relationship in my life. What did he do? He was a writer. Good writer? I don't know, because he wrote in French, and at that time I couldn't really judge.

And now that you know French, you have not gone back. No. No. OK. Bound okay. But, you know, he- Boundaries. Yeah. But, yeah, it took me a little while to get out of it, but we did get divorced when I was,

by that time I had gotten together with my husband and I was eight months pregnant. By the time you got divorced? Yeah, I was eight months pregnant with my elder daughter. Did he know? Well, it was pretty clear I was eight months pregnant. Yeah. So it was clear that it was over.

Yeah, I think by that point, it was pretty clear that it was over. But we're still friends now. I mean, it took a while to while. But yeah, actually the funny thing is he's translating from English to French and I'm translating from French to English. And so we text back and forth sometimes when we ask, you know, well, what's the best way to say this or what do you, you know, what does this word mean? Oh really? So you have a kind of working friendship.

Yeah. Well, that's nice. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the person I was with for seven years, she'd never talked to me again about life. Really? Yeah. But it's weird when you don't have children with people, you're not beholden to, you don't have to.

That's right. But I've had to accept the fact that I'm just, I was just a bad phase for somebody. Yeah. Did you ever, do you have kids? Never wanted them? Not really. I don't, I don't ever, do you have kids? Never wanted them? Not really. I don't, I don't ever, like, I mean,

I think about that a lot, like, cause I very consciously didn't have them and I don't ever think I should have. And I don't know that I would have been a good or a bad father, but I do know that I'm a panicky, you know, pretty neurotic, self-involved person. And, you know, my brother's got a few kids and I don't regret it.

How about you? I have three. And? Well, that depends on the day. No, I'm really happy that I had kids, but I always wanted them. I mean, I, like from the time I was one of those people that in kindergarten, I was like thinking about it.

And by the time I was time, I had kids on the later side. Yeah. But yeah, I always wanted them. I'm glad to have them, but you know, it's hard. Like my elder is, she's 20. Yeah. And she's asking. So she's on her own now.

But the other two are 14 and like. Oh, so you're still in it. Yeah, I'm still very much in it. And what's your husband do? He's a writer. He's a writer and an editor. What kind, like movie writing? Fiction. Oh, fiction?

Fiction, non-fiction. Good? Yeah, he's a very good writer. That's good. Very good. Two writers in the house. Yeah. Do you show him the stuff? All the time.

Really? Yeah, we show each other everything. Like, you know, he edits me, I edit him. And yeah, it's not, yeah, it's nice that he's a really good writer, because that would really suck to be with somebody who's not a good writer. I don't know if I could do that.

The first guy you couldn't read, so that was good. Well, that was easy, yeah. Yeah, I think those things, I think that's a real thing. Because how does that not turn ugly? Yeah, it would be really, did you see that movie with Julia with Stryfe? I can't remember what it was called, I really love her, but it's the movie where she's a writer

and her husband doesn't like her book and she finds out. Oh yeah, it's a new movie. It's Howliff Center's movie. Nicole Howliff Center. Yeah. Oh, that's great, yeah. It was really great and really funny. And that idea that you could be with someone

and not like their writing, it would be horrible. It was an interesting thing. Nicole Hofstadter makes great movies. I've interviewed her before. You've interviewed everyone. Yeah, a lot of people. But an interesting director, because it really challenges that idea.

Can you be with somebody? Is it overcomable? Yeah, like what is it that you love about a person? Yeah. You know, I mean,. Yeah, like what is it that you love about a person? Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, if you love a person, you should love their soul and it shouldn't matter, but it matters to me.

Yeah. Like, it really matters. And also, it has so much to do with what was attractive about him in the first place. Right. Was his taste in books and his writing and his, you know. I found that really attractive and appealing. So yeah, it has a lot to do with our connection. Well, yeah, the soul thing, I mean, that's tricky. Yeah.

I think ultimately it's gonna come down to more practical things, I think, with the love. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I've lost a certain amount of faith in the soul business. But like, so when did you start to kind of like, you realize that, I mean, did, acting never became unsatisfying, but you just wanted... Well, it did. I mean, it did for a minute because I wasn't getting

like material that I was moved by. And you can only rise above your material so much. And then eventually it's like, there's just certain material that you can't rise above. And it's just, yeah, that felt soul killing. It felt soul crushing to me. Yeah, and I talk to actors, character actors and stuff. I mean, it's part of the gig at a certain level

that you're just gonna like judge a job on like, it's okay, where does it shoot, how long, and I'll just get it over with. Yeah, and who's gonna see it, and is there a way for like me to do this a little off the radar? Yeah, could no one see this movie? Yeah.

Is that possible? Can we put that in Yeah, could no one see this movie? Yeah. Is that possible? Can we put that in the contract that no one sees the movie? Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. And then once you have kids and a family, like I made the choice that I wanted to have a family, and then you have these kids and kids need dental care and kids need- You gotta work.

Yeah, you gotta work and you gotta hustle and you gotta, you know, and you know, you can only, it's really easy to be super picky when it's just you and you're the only one that you have to worry about but when you have a family, like you have to be less picky. Right. So, yeah, so I'm, but to answer your question, yeah, I did kind of question whether or not

I wanted to continue acting, because I don't find it enjoyable at all to do it when the material's not good, when the people aren't good. And not only do I not find it not enjoyable, but I find it really upsetting. And I think it's because I like it so much and I know what it can be that to kind of do shitty work.

Or to be stuck in it. Or to be stuck. I mean, you could be stuck in it for like two months. Yeah. Or even longer. You can, you know, like now if you commit to doing a TV series, usually they make you sign for like, you know, five or seven years, you know?

And now I'm thinking like seven years of my You did well, I mean you have to yeah, it's like, you know, it's a series Yeah, but then I the sad part about that is is if you do that Going into it. You're like the best thing that could happen is this goes one and out and yeah Yeah, but you know, it also might be really good too. And I'm not like I think yeah, he's a funny guy We'll see what is. Did he write it? No. Who wrote it?

It was written by a guy named Jason Keller. He wrote Ford versus Ferrari, I think the movie. But it's like, it's centered in the world of golf. Do golf? No. No. Are you gonna golf? No, I don't have to golf.

It's like part of your research, you don't? I don't have to golf. But don't you have to like learn how to caddy or do that? Kind of, I mean, it's more about, the through line of it is that Owen's character, he's down on his luck, you know, and he's not a golfer, he kind of blew his career for a lot of different reasons, some of them kind of deep and emotional,

and you know, my background with him is emotional and my life has been difficult, but he sees some prodigy teenager on the driving range and decides he wants to go all in and make this kid a pro. So like he has to get the mother on board, get the kid on board, get me on board to kind of go with him, drive the Winnebago so we become this sort of weird family on the road doing these amateur golf tournaments

with this kid who's kind of a dick. That sounds fun. Yeah. And where's it going to film? Vancouver. Oh. What? What's the matter with Vancouver?

I filmed some stuff in Vancouver. Right. It rains a lot there. But summer, it's gonna be summer. I'm told that summer is the best. Yeah, summer is really nice in Vancouver. Thank you for shifting the narrative. So, and you did music too, right? Yeah, yeah. Well that was later. I've been around for a while, so I've sort of dabbled in a lot of different things. But yeah, I put together a jazz group and I did it. With your dad?

No, not with my dad. It's more, a little bit more like modern and American song book. Actually, that's how I first heard about you because my sax player is obsessed with you. And so I've been, yeah, in a good way, not in a creepy way. He, yeah, he.

What's his name? His name is Alan Mosqueda. Yeah. He's a really great sax player and an animator. He animates too. Oh wow. Yeah, so I did that for a while. Were you doing it at clubs?

Yeah, yeah, I did it on, I did clubs and I did, I toured. Did you have sort of a cabaret act? Not really a cabaret in that it wasn't really, I mean I talked to the audience a little. I mean I guess it could have been considered a cabaret, but like because I grew up with a jazz musician, I wanted to be, you know, serious. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was, to me, it was more like about the music and less about, you know, the cabaret. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, sure.

But not that I have anything wrong with cabaret, it was just not what I had in mind. But- You still got the band together? I mean, they're all in LA. I was living in LA at the time. But yeah, I mean, they're still my guys. I still living in LA at the time. But yeah, I mean, they're still my guys. I still talk to them and hang out when I see them. When did you move to New York?

I moved to New York about eight years ago. Oh, not that long ago. I moved back to New York, yeah. I mean, I was in New York. I kind of bounced around between LA, New York, and Paris. Those were like my three spots. Those are pretty good cities to bounce. Yeah.

And you live in the city? I live outside. Oh, okay. A little outside. So you could have a house? Yeah, exactly. And my kids can like bike around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wanted them to kind of grow up a little slower. Yeah, so then it must be a little tricky to work or you don't think, you just jump and go do it? I just jump and go do it? I just jump and go do it. And also, you know, I mean, now, you know, particularly since the pandemic, everything is, you know, like Zoom or, you know, Self-Pate or whatever.

Yeah, in terms of auditioning or whatever? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And what, how do you choose movies now? I choose them really, I'm trying to be as selective as I can because I feel like, you know, with the Ryan Murphy stuff that I've done, it's like at a certain caliber and I'm kind of trying to stay at that caliber again and work with, like I've had really good experiences with both of those projects, you know, with Dahmer and with Feud.

He did the Feud too? Yeah. Yeah. And he, like, he's put me with everything in Dahmer was with Richard Jenkins, who's an amazing actor. And then all my scenes in Feud are with Tom Hollander, also an amazing actor. And I have always found that, like, the better the actor you're working with, the better I am. So I'm really trying to stay focused on that and just do stuff that I really love.

Also, I'm working on my own thing. What? Well, I can't talk about it yet because I'm still- A movie kind of thing or a series? No, like a series thing that I'm writing with a couple couple people. But you've also done other writing, yeah? Yeah, I mean, I do a lot of fiction, nonfiction, essay writing, but this is gonna be, you know. You do novels?

Screenwriting, yeah. How many novels? One. How was that? It was good, it was good. It was a novel in stories. It was kind of like interconnected stories. Seems hard.

Yeah, it was, I mean, yeah, it is hard, but in a lot of ways, I find that fiction is easier than nonfiction. Because nonfiction is like, you know, like, what do you, I get worried about, you know, hurting people's feelings or saying the wrong thing. Yeah, I've done a couple memoir things and upset my dad. Yeah.

But he had it coming. Did he get over it? Yeah, he has dementia now, so he's way over it. Oh, bad dementia? It's getting there. He's still mostly there. But yeah, he got upset about it. But like, it's a very odd thing to do that,

to like, to, you know, how much do you take into consideration if it's part of your story as well? You know what I mean? But you just gotta be willing to take, you know, what comes. Yeah. Well, my first book that I did, it was nonfiction, and I didn't change anyone's name because in my mind, I wasn't looking to take anyone down.

Right. I mean, I told stories, I told some funny stories, but I thought that they were funny. I had no idea. Which book was this? It was my first book. It was called Getting the Pretty Back and it was just a book of essays. About your career and life? About life.

Yeah. It was about, yeah, it was kind of, it was the first thing that I wrote, and if I had to do it over again, like the book that I wrote was illustrated. It's a very pretty book, but it's a little bit light, kind of, I thought no one would accept that I was, I cared too much about what people thought, so I kind of went a little on the fluffier side.

On brand-ish? Yeah. Yeah. And then after that, I thought, no, this actually really isn't what I want to do at all. And in the process of that, I upset three people in my life, actually lost one friend, and then the other two forgave me. So I will never, I will change, and now everyone gets a different name, just no matter what, unless they're a really public person.

I'm gonna change everyone's name. These were just, they weren't public people? No, they were just friends of mine. And I mean, I really didn't think that anything that I said was that bad. Well, actually one thing that I said wasn't very nice, but I wasn't really, I wasn't. Well, that's, yeah, an ex-girlfriend of mine

brought that to my attention, that when you do that, they don't have a platform to respond or give their side of it. So, how fair is it? Yeah, exactly. But then on another level, it's like, well, it's not an active conversation. I mean, yeah, what are you gonna do?

Like everybody, I can't remember who, I think it might've been Graham Greene or something that said that every writer has to have a little icicle in their heart. Like you have to be able, in order to write, you have to feel like that is so important, that that's the most important thing. And by the same token, like I'm not the same token, I'm not looking to get revenge

on anyone in anything that I write. I'm not looking to settle scores. I don't wanna do that. That was the big question I had asked myself after I put out that book with my dad in it. Was I settling a score? Do you think you were? A little bit?

Yeah. How are you not gonna be that with your parents? Yeah. I would have a really hard time with that about writing about my parents in non-fiction. Yeah. Well, it sounds like they were all right though. Yeah, they were all right. I mean, no one's perfect, but you know, yeah.

I... And ultimately with those kinds but, you know, yeah, I, um... And ultimately, with those kinds of things, you gotta ask yourself, was this even necessary? Yeah. Why the, you know, what the fuck? You know, like, to what end? It wasn't like a best seller. Yeah. You know, so the one guy that read it... Is your dad? Yeah.

How long ago was that? The one he got upset about, Attempting Normal. I don't know when that was. You know, it was like, it's tricky because he had, you know, he was a mentally ill dude in a very sort of, you know, functional way and had these issues that had a profound effect on me, you know, in different points in my life. So I felt that it was valid, you know, but he just got paranoid and weird, and he got mad.

And you know, it was a very funny conversation because he's mad at me, and he's on the phone, and he's all yelling, he thinks he's gonna get in trouble for this or that. And I said, well, what do you want me to do? What do you want, money? And he says, he goes, yeah. And I go, well, how much money do you want?

He goes, $ goes, yeah. And I go, well, how much money do you want? He goes, $100,000. And I said, I'll give you five. Oh, did you? Yeah. And that was, and that made everything okay? I don't even like, he was just being a dick. I mean, like, well, he could use, he definitely used the money, but we're okay now.

I mean, it all comes to pass eventually and nothing really happened, you know? It's just, I think his family also, it's like you write these recollections of things, even of my grandfather, childhood recollections of somebody, and then the entire family gets upset. My dad's sister and the old uncles and stuff, someone tells me they're all mad at you, and I'm like, so? What's gonna happen then? Yeah. I was really thrown though.

I was really thrown that my friend, well, my friends, but one in particular, I was really, really sad that she was so upset. And I remember talking to a mutual friend of ours who happens to be a public person, Monica Lewinsky. Have you ever interviewed Monica? No, she don't do that. What's that?

She won't do it. She won't? I don't think so. I think she would. I met her briefly and I kind of introduced myself, but I mean, it didn't seem like, I think because of what her life is now and what she fights for, that kind of doing the life story thing is behind her.

Yeah. And so I don't get a sense that she really wants to do the type of interview that I do, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know, you might be wrong. I think she's, well, anyway, I really like her a lot and she's very smart and I remember talking to her, and I was really, like, didn't know what I was going to do and how I was going to repair this friendship.

And I said, but everything that I said is true, and it's stuff that we've laughed about. And like, how could she be upset? And she said, Molly, everybody wants to control their own mythology. Right. You know, and I thought. Their own narrative. Yeah, their own mythology. Right. You know, and I thought- Their own narrative.

Yeah, their own narrative. And that's, you know, what's so upsetting to people to read somebody else's version of them in, you know? And everybody's gonna have their own narrative. Sure. Yeah. You know, so I don't know. I thought that was very, very perceptive.

Yeah, I think that's probably, it's true. But like, you know, it's weird though, like you would think that eventually these things come to pass, you know, after a certain age. Like, you know, it didn't make the national news, did it? No. Yeah. No. You know? And then you apologized profusely?

Oh yeah, profusely. Nothing, huh? No, we're friends again. You are. I only lost one friend for good over the, but no, this particular friend forgave me and the other friend, we talked about it and she forgave me as well.

But I think from that, it kind of- But no more books, you can't write anymore about that. Well, no, I can. I just have to change everyone's name. I just thought to be on the I can. I just have to change everyone's name. I just thought to be on the safe side, I'm just gonna change everyone's name. And it's like, it doesn't matter. They can, you know, I mean, there's a lot of,

there's like a trend in French books where they just do the first letter of the person. I changed names in some books, but like I'm not gonna be able to change my dad. Like if I'm referring to him as my dad. Yeah, you grew up in New Jersey? New Mexico. Like if I'm referring to him as my dad. Yeah. You grew up in New Jersey?

New Mexico. Oh, New Mexico? My folks are from Jersey. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm genetically Jersey, is what I say generally. Yeah, cause you sound a little bit like, do you sound a little bit like your dad? Probably.

I can't tell if there's a Jersey inflection, but I probably sound, yeah, I would imagine I do. I don't think I have an accent. New Mexico, what's that like? Albuquerque. Oh, okay. I love it. I mean, I know people, they go work there

and they're like, wow, what a shithole. I'm like, no, it's not, what are you doing? Well, it's a little rough, Albuquerque in parts. But when I grew up there, it was beautiful. New Mexico is beautiful. Yeah, I'm gonna go back there I think someday. Do you really to live? Yeah, northern New Mexico, it's pretty.

I was gonna go back to New York, but then I realized like, if I'm gonna get old, like I had this idea like I could get old in New York and be one of those New York old people carrying their strand book bag and hunched over. You're like walking places through lively, you know, young people. But I don't know, that kind of went away. I just had this realization. It's like when I lived there, I didn't do a lot of what the city had to offer and it can be pretty lonely.

How long did you live in New York? I lived there at different times. You know, I lived there like 89 to 92, and then I was back from 94 to 2002, and then out here for a couple of years, but I kept an apartment in Queens, and I was back in New York like 2004 to seven. Did you move to New York to do comedy? Was that always what you wanted to do?

Yeah, totally. I was out here in like 88, or 87 after college and I got a job at the comedy store and got all fucked up on Coke and left and then went back to Boston where I went to school and started and then I got an apartment in New York and it's been a long, exciting path. But yeah, I was always chasing comedy. Do you still enjoy doing comedy?

I do. Yeah, I seem to do, like, it's gotten better, you know, because, you know, I'm not afraid. Yeah. So, you know, and it's something I've worked my whole life doing and I'm working at the top of my game and it's all pretty exciting because I, you know, there's a lot of revelation and thing. It's sort of like writing. I don't love to write. But when you write, things happen that never happened before. Like things come together, come up.

But that happens on stage and when it does, it makes it pretty exciting. I find that comedy to me is the most terrifying thing that I can imagine doing. Stand up. Stand up. Yeah. No, not comedy. I love that I can imagine doing. Stand up. Stand up. Yeah. Yeah. No, not comedy.

I mean, I love comedy. I love doing comedic roles and acting, but just standing up and being funny for people. And to me, it feels very courageous. For a while, I couldn't even watch comedy stand up because it made me too anxious. Yeah, I wish there were more people doing comedy that thought like you. But there are comedians that are a little terrified doing it, right?

Well, I think so. There are a lot of bad comedians. I think that it's become sort of normalized somehow with social media platforms. And I think what it used to mean to be a comic or to do the work and to, you know, it's changed with outlets, you know, because people can just dump anything. But there are comics that have lifelong stage fright. I don't have it anymore.

But I think for most of the career, you kind of pretend like you're not afraid. And then if you're lucky, a day comes when you're just not. And I'm pretty personal, so there's not that much space between me on stage and me in life. So it feels like the emotional risk is pretty heavy for me. Like I'm not doing a character up there. I put myself on the line, and that's not always comfortable. I'm not afraid of it, but sometimes I wonder why I'm saying what I'm not doing a character up there. I put myself on the line and that's not always comfortable.

I'm not afraid of it. But sometimes I wonder why I'm saying what I'm saying. It's the same with the book. It's like, why do you need to do this? What are you looking for? I never got into it to be an entertainer. Yeah. What do you think you are looking for when you do it?

Is it like connection or is it? I think so. I think there's that and there's sort of like some guy brought it to my attention that I was probably recreating something I grew up with that maybe wasn't particularly healthy, but like this was my way of sort of processing it or living in it.

And I think there's some truth to that. But I like the idea of taking emotional risks and being honest in a way that's jarring, you know, to see if there's like a common vibe there. If you talk about stuff that is kind of off the grid as a cultural conversation, especially in comedy, about yourself, you're going to help somebody. Somebody is going to feel better. Not all of them. Yeah.

Yeah, so like I'm not doing arenas, but I can sell about 800 tickets some places. Yeah, no, I think it is. I think it is very meaningful to people. All of it is. I was just watching a comedian that I know that you've had on the show before who's pretty open about his mental health issues. Who's that? Gary. Oh yeah, Goldman, yeah.

And I was really moved. I thought it was- That's the real stuff. I thought he was funny, I thought he was smart, but I also found it really moving. And I don't know. I love watching comedians who put themselves out there in that way.

Yeah, I think that's the good stuff. Yeah. You know, I mean, joke guys are fine. Yeah. I like them. I'd rather watch them than like someone who's doing something like I'm doing. There are certain comics that are just, you know,

they're not taking down some dark hole to see if they can shed light on something. But yeah, but I think that's a very exciting way to do comedy, he's a good guy. And he's definitely had to deal with some shit. But did you used to go see comedy like back in the day? Or you just couldn't handle it? A little bit, but then yeah, at a certain point,

I just realized that it just made me, like, too, um, too nervous. Two anxious... Maybe I just saw, like, a lot of bad comedy. I couldn't stand to see people, like, bomb. Yeah, it really... Because I feel like I'm really a very empathetic person. I feel like part of what I do as an actor, like, you just have to be so empathetic all the time. And I felt like I was seeing comedy and I was just,

I was dying with them, you know, and I just couldn't stand it. But I'm getting over that. I've actually started to get into comedy more. Oh really? Watching it, yeah. Well, if you're watching it on TV, you would hope that they're not bombing, right?

That's true. Okay. That's true, yeah. So, all right, so tomorrow you're gonna go to the fashion thing. Gonna do the fashion thing tomorrow. For who? For, it's the wrap. Oh, okay.

It's gonna be the wrap. All right, well, thank you for coming by. Thank you for having me. Do you feel good about it? I feel great about it. Good, me too. ["French Translator"] ["French Translator"] There you go.

A French translator. Anyway, Feud, Capote vs. the Swans is streaming on Hulu and it was lovely to talk to Molly. Hang out for a minute, folks. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions. At Enterprise Mobility, we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities. Because if your business is on the road, we want to make sure it's on the road to success. Enterprise Mobility, moving you moves the world. they got cut like this clip of me and Tig Notaro. I don't miss meat at all. I don't think about it.

Oh my God. People always ask me when they're eating in front of me if it's hard to see me eat, to see them eat that. Emotionally or that you might want it? Like I might want it. And it's like, what I've learned about what they're eating, I'm not tempted. And it's like, what I've learned about what they're eating, I'm not tempted, you know? It's kind of like, during the pandemic,

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Well, that's what I said. It's like, if I were on a boat with a bunch of men, I'd be like, oh, I'm, you know, I have somebody to introduce you to. I was, I was away. It was a long trip. We were out there for three weeks. You know what, I did Mark's podcast.

It went a little long, we're dating now. I... You know what? I did Mark's podcast. It went a little long. We're dating now. I don't know what came over me. I just couldn't hold it back anymore. Love it. To get that episode when it drops tomorrow and the new bonus episodes twice a week as well as every WTF episode ad free, sign up using the link in the episode description

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