WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1543 - Tony Goldwyn

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

Despite a family name that goes back to the dawn of Hollywood, Tony Goldwyn’s father did not want him to get into the family business. It took Tony achieving his own success and landing a lead role in the movie Ghost for his father to accept this career path. Tony tells Marc the hardscrabble immigrant story of his grandfather, the man who became Samuel Goldwyn, before sharing his own ups and downs in the business and why he moved from acting into directing. They also talk about his new movie Ezra and how both Bill Burr and Robert DeNiro helped in the evolution of the film.This episode is sponsored by Acorns. Paid non-client endorsement. May not be representative of all clients. Tier one compensation provided. Compensation provides an incentive to positively promote Acorns. View important disclosures at acorns dot com WTF. Investing involves risk, including the loss of principal. Please consider your objectives, risk tolerance, and Acorns’ fees before investing. Acorns Advisers, LLC (“Acorns”) is an SEC-registered investment adviser. Brokerage services are provided to clients of Acorns by Acorns Securities, LLC. Member FINRA/SIPC. For more information visit Acorns.com. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions. At Enterprise Mobility, we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities. Because if your business is on the road, we want to make sure it's on the road to success you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going out there? How are you guys doing? Are you all right? It's an okay day today.

I've been up in Vancouver for the last few days and I'm just really kind of trying to get this space that I'm living in into a place where I recognize things and I can do things that I do. Maybe I should tell you who's on the show. Would that be helpful today? Who's on the show? It is Tony Goldwynn, and he's been in the business

for a long time. His dad was a producer, and his grandfather was the movie mogul Samuel Goldwynn. And he's an actor. You've known him. You've seen him. He was in movies like Ghost. He was in the TV series Scandal. I just saw him on Hacks.

But he just directed this new movie, Ezra, which is pretty spectacular. It's a beautiful movie. It's got Bobby Cannavale, Rose Burns in it, De Niro's in it. They got this great kid who's, it's a story about parents with an autistic kid. And the kid they got is, he's on the spectrum. It's a beautiful movie.

It's one of those movies, and I've had this experience recently where I'm watching something and there's an authenticity to it that could not be generated falsely. Like it just feels too real to not be somebody's story. And it turns out it actually was his buddy's story with his kid and they've been working on the screenplay

and this project for years, the guy who wrote it, and Tony directed it, and I'll tell you, it's a sweet movie. It really is a sweet movie, nice story. I think Cannavale and Byrne are really doing some of their best work in this movie, and even De Niro, fucking De Niro, when he gets cast in a role of a regular guy-ish, and it's not a lead part,

but it's a support part, he's just great. What a humble, gracious actor this guy is. And he always, obviously I'm studying what people do on screen a little more than usual, but he's just so fucking good. He's fucking good. He's so good. And I just talked to Tony about the whole thing,

we talked a bit about this Nepo baby idea, which I really just don't believe is a real issue. And I've talked about this before. And just based on the people I talked to, almost all of them come from humble, working class beginnings, and that if you look at the percentages, it's a non-issue

and why wouldn't you get into the family business? But I talked to Tony a little bit about that. But it was a great conversation. I would like to tell you that I'm performing up here in Vancouver on Friday, June 21st at the Vogue Theater. Then I'm in Seattle on Saturday, June 22nd at the Moore Theater.

In the fall, I'm gonna be coming to Tucson, Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Boulder, Colorado, Joliet, Illinois, Skokie, Illinois, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sacramento, and Napa, California. Woo, a lot on the docket, a lot on the docket. To get all my dates, including the ones from the summer that I had to reschedule, go to wtfpod.com slash tour. And yeah, I'll see you out there, I guess.

I gotta keep this hour tight. You know, I'm gonna be kinda out of the loop for a few months shooting this TV show, but yeah, I think I got it. I'm gonna be back down in LA quite a bit. I'm gonna find a little place to work out here somebody some local comic hipped me to a To a situation that might be helpful while I'm up here. So on a somber note, I Would like to

Pay tribute to a couple of people here. Okay We've been losing people It's not unusual, happens to everybody, but maybe some of you remember Al Ruddy. Movie producer Al Ruddy died on Saturday at age 94. That's as good a run as you can have. He was famous for producing The Godfather, but he had an amazing career all around.

And I talked with him back in 2022 on episode 1363. That's still available for free and all the podcast feeds. And he was, you know, he was a real deal man. And he was still, you know, he was still slugging away, you know, at 92 or 93, however old he was. Well, rest in peace, Al. He had a good run. We lost someone who was never a guest on WTF,

but it was someone who I worked with back at Air America, which was really the beginning of me doing this, doing, learning how to do radio. Amy Winslow was the director of operations there at Air America, and she was one of our biggest supporters and our biggest fans, and she was just great. She was a great person, always had a great energy. She came from Rock Radio in New York, WNEW,

and she was always a pro. She was from rock radio in New York, WNEW, and she was always a pro. She was also incredibly, just a really nice person and great person to talk to. And she went on to work at the music management firm that handles guided by voices, Yoko Ono and some other people. And she died of cancer last week at age 59 and it was very jarring and sad to get that news and to get it, you know, in the way that I did, which was just a DM on Instagram from someone I didn't know who knew that I knew her and he didn't have any contacts for her. But, uh, and I imagine some

people may be hearing this for the first time, but Amy Winslow has passed away and she was just really the first time, but Amy Winslow has passed away and she was just really one of the great ones, just always great to see her and she always kind of stayed in touch and it's a very sad, sad reality, this death thing. But let's get back to process, shall we? Can we? I don't know, did I mention that, like I did some cooking here and I made Owen dinner? I think I did. Well, I didn't make it for him, I made it for me, but then he came over and just ate some, and then he left. But, so I get back up here Monday

and then we're supposed to have a rehearsal with the directors on the Tuesday, but just me and Owen with Valerie Ferris and Jonathan Dayton, they are partners, they are married, I believe. And I didn't really know what we were getting into. And now all of a sudden I get this text from them to get hip to the game Jenga.

Now you know, ultimately, the backstory of me and Owen in this show is I was his caddy, he was a pro golfer 20 years ago. So it was just this interesting exercise which I immediately was like, what the fuck? What is that? I text Owen, what are we doing this silly shit for? What are we gonna do, play Jenga?

Because that's just my nature. Here's an idea, something you may not be comfortable with, even though it's Jenga, a game I've never played before. My first response is like, well, this ought to be fun. No, it's like, what are we doing? But we got to this rehearsal, which is me and Owen and them and the directors, and they want us to, you know, they asked us a bunch of questions about what we thought about the other person's story or our story, how we interconnected. They were very specific questions. There were six of them. We had three minutes to write by hand stuff. And then we read them out loud to each other.

It was kind of weirdly touching. And we were pretty on the same page with our understanding of the characters we were playing. But it was kind of weird, you know, just to be like, well, this is what I'm saying. But it's about your character, not about you per se. But it was oddly kind's about your character and not about you per se but but it was it was oddly kind of a vulnerable exercise and then um,

And then we kind of they wanted us to play Jenga and I'd never played it before in my life But I did read the materials they gave me so I had a pretty good idea of it I kind of knew the idea you don't want the thing to fall down. It's not a challenging game It's like pull the things out and you don't want to fall down and you can you can't do the top two top You got put the thing on top. I get it. It's not you know, yes, not a it's not it's not chess for Christ's sake There's only there's only one way to move in Jenga but But it was interesting to play it and then to you know

See how somebody else is making decisions and be like I sure you know, you're gonna do that I'm gonna do that. But it got pretty gnarly, and it got pretty, I think it was a tie, is that possible? I don't know, how do you win Jenga, I guess if it falls down for the other guy, but what if it doesn't fall down and you're kinda out of options?

Does it have to fall down? Doesn't matter, it's not a conversation I need to have with you guys. But all said, the exercise was kind of interesting. And it did, it got us engaged in a way that we wouldn't have, and I liked it. I guess this is part of it. You know, you work with some directors,

they do interesting stuff, they got an interesting method, you learn new things about yourself, about your characters. It's part of the creative process. I'll take it, I'll take it. This was all heading into the first day of shooting on Wednesday, which was a big scene with me and Owen at a bar. It's actually me act, we're both doing our characters,

but our characters are involved in something where they're not really playing themselves. So it's like acting upon acting. And I hadn't been in the process in a while. Getting up, 5.50, six in the morning, getting over to the trailers, getting the hair and makeup, be on set at seven, walk through, run through, do the talking, running the lines with Owen, having some laughs,

figuring out where everything's at, doing the business of the acting. And then, you know, it was all pretty fun. I'm here to tell you, it was pretty fun. From about seven to, I would say, 12.30, it was fun. From 12.30 to 3.30, I was a little tired, and they only needed my feet for a shot So that's where it acting gets a little

That's that's where it gets a little bit like All right, I you know, I'm glad I'm doing this but really got to stay just for the feet We're gonna just getting the feet on this one for an hour My feet are just part of the frame that you're gonna go buy my feet. But you know what, it's part of the job. It was no problem, and I think we got some good stuff. Look folks, if there's one thing we all have in common, it's that we're all busy.

I'm sure your life isn't exactly like mine, but whatever your life is, there's no doubt you've got a lot on your plate. So when you're trying to get everything done, and then someone brings up options for investing money for your future future chances are you're already pretty Overwhelmed if you relate to any of this our sponsor might be just what you're looking for today's episode is sponsored by Acorns Acorns makes it easier to start automatically saving and investing for your future

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Head to acorns.com or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. And please see the show notes for all legal disclaimers. So Vancouver, it's beautiful. So far so good. You know what though I'm finding? That maybe I romanticized it a little too much. It's definitely a beautiful city.

There's a lot of beautiful stuff. I even like the weather, although it seems to rain a lot. I was told this is the good season. This is when it doesn't rain as much, but it doesn't rain a lot. But there's also a little bit of traffic. There's construction. You know what I'm finding is that maybe my kind of

idealistic mythological idea of what Vancouver was may not be exactly that, but I'm still good. I'm good, I'm good. So Tony Goldwyn, as I said earlier, a legacy, but his own guy, it's a big name, Goldwyn. But he directed this movie called Ezra starring Bobby Cannavale, Robert De Niro, and Rose Byrne, Bobby's wife as well. And they play a couple who used to be married.

It's good. It always adds a little dimension to it. It starts in theaters tomorrow, May 31st. And this guy's done a lot of different jobs in the business. It was great talking to him. Here's me talking to Tony Goldwyn. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions.

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code WTFmark at checkout to get your first month free. That's Oxeo.ca promo code WTF marc I don't really see myself as an actor so I don't live the actor life right right, but you are a good actor Well, I appreciate that Yeah, I got to go to Vancouver and I had to kind of work it in that I got to come home every two weeks to keep up with this. But we got a lot of interviews in the can. But I have a hard time leaving home for that long.

I don't know how you guys do it. Yeah, it's hard. It is, right? Yeah. Do you stress? I generally, no, I don't because it's our life. Well, yeah, you're like you've been doing it forever. Yeah, my kids are grown, so it's easy now.

It was hard. I stressed a lot when I had young kids. Oh really? Yeah. Didn't stop you? No. No. No.

Yeah. I mean, I've only got cats and I'm freaked out. Yeah. I'm like, is my cat gonna remember me when I come home in two weeks? You're right. But yeah, it's different with kids. It is, yeah, it's hard. It's hard. You know, but they've turned're right. But yeah, it was different with kids. It is. Yeah, it's hard.

It's hard. But they've turned out OK. Oh, yeah? When they were young, I just had a lot of, you know, I feel so guilty. Yeah. And but, you know, my wife is also in our industry. So she got it.

She's a production designer. OK. Yeah, really, really good one. So we kind of understood what the other person did. That's the job. Yeah, it's the job. And it was hard there for a few years, but we got through it.

We're still together, so that's good. That's good, long time. Yeah. And your daughter's an actress as well? One of them is an actress, and my other one is a writer. Yeah. So yeah. And they're both making their way? They are, yeah, yeah. They're, both making their way? They are, yeah.

Yeah. You know, as this business goes, you know, it's up and down, but they're both, you know, doing their thing. It's great. It's great. Now, are you comfortable? Because you can move that mic wherever you want. Let me just.

You can move it back. No, it's cool. Is this cool? Pretty good, yeah. Yeah, all right. You know how to talk. I do. So let's get something out of the way in the beginning cause I like to talk about it.

And in terms of this generationally, like how do you feel about the phrase nepo baby? It amuses me. I think I was a little late to, I only just heard the phrase the past year. Well, it's pretty new. I guess it's pretty new. And it's like it's got negative connotations, but my argument has always been that if your

family's in a business, there's a real good chance that the kids are going to be in the business either because you want them to carry the torch or because it's what they grew up with. And it's not some sort of negative connotation. The idea is that they get special treatment, but that may be once, but it doesn't last a lifetime. Yeah, no, look, the thing there, it's so funny you mention it because, first of all, I guess I'm a nepo baby, like a third generation nepo baby.

Third generation nepo baby. My kids are fourth generation nepo babies. But if you- But you're a nepo baby that goes back to the beginning of film. The beginning of the film industry. That's right. And also, on my mother's side in the theater world, my mother's father was a really wonderful

and successful playwright and screenwriter. So like her family was all in the theater. Sidney Howard was his name. Oh yeah, he did some big movies? He did do some great, he was like one of Pulitzer as a playwright in the 20s and then in the 30s, he was a very successful playwright. Is he your maternal grandfather?

My maternal grandfather, and then he ended up, he became a screenwriter in the 30s. Yeah. And wrote, he died in his prime in a terrible accident and he wrote the screenplay for Gone with the Wind, actually. Really? But a lot of other really good movies. And that was an MGM movie, but your, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was an MGM movie, yeah. But your grandfather was not really involved with MGM. No, but that's true. And you want to get really in the weeds. So no, so my grandfather, my other grandfather, Samuel Goldwyn, who was one of the pioneers, like founders of the industry really. It's crazy, because I read an empire of their own

years ago. Yeah, great book. It's a great book, and I don't remember what was written about your grandfather. Not much, he really wasn't in the book, which surprised me, because he was one of those Jews from Eastern Europe. It felt like he was in the original pack,

but maybe he didn't start a studio. Yeah, he started several of what became, he started the company that became Paramount. Right. But then he sort of, he never could get along with the corporate thing. Yeah. And so he tended to form partnerships

and then alienate his partners and go off on his own. So he started to get into the history for a second. He started, he was a glove salesman. I know that's crazy. Yeah, he came over by himself at 16 years old, I think from Poland on foot. Right. He made his way to England and had an uncle there

and then had no money and learned a bit of English and got on the bottom of a boat, you know, and came to America like so many people. Couldn't find any work. So he went out to upstate New York, a town called Gloversville, which made gloves. And he became a guy working in a glove factory as a glove cutter, and ultimately became

a very successful glove salesman. So at about 30 years old, he was living in New York, sort of the regional manager of the elite glove company. Moving those gloves? Yeah, and he sort of decided that this wasn't, is gonna be his future, and he walked in, he used to walk from the Garment District to the Upper West Side where he lived, and he walked into a Nickelodeon movie theater,

which was the very first thing where you'd play like a nickel, I guess, and see a short. Was that the hand crank or no? I don't remember if it was a hand crank or a nickel. It was like a little thing you'd look in, it was part of a kind of inner variety. You'd go in and you could maybe, there were multiple types of entertainment,

but he saw one of these short films, like three minute things, and he said, that's the future. And he had a brother-in-law, his wife's brother, had been, he and his wife had been vaudeville performers. And she had actually married him to get out of show business. She married my grandpa.

And, but her brother-in-law, who was sort of splashing around, he said, look, we're going to get into, we're going to do this movie thing. Yeah. And his name was Jesse Lasky and the two of them formed a company. I think his wife is actually not at all happy about it. Yeah. Um, and, um, they started, you know, a movie company and started making these short films and they

made the first feature length movie ever shot in Hollywood in 1913 called The Squaw Man. Huh. Which became a big hit and kind of put their company on the map. So they then, their company was called Famous Players I think. Yeah. And they, that is the company that became Paramount Pictures. Wow.

And then their partnership split up and he partnered with some people called the Selwyn Brothers who were theater owners in Manhattan. Yeah. Film theater? No, they who were theater owners in Manhattan. Like they were- Film theater? No, they were Broadway theater owners. And his name at that time was Sam Goldfish. Yeah.

And they were the Selwyn brothers. So they combined their names to form Goldwyn Pictures. Oh. And they had a movie company and he changed his name to Samuel Goldwyn. Was that a business move or he just thought- Yeah, and they sued him. They said, you can't do that.

He said, I can call myself whatever the fuck I want. So he became Sid and it looked like it was his company. That's where the lion logo came in and all that, you know. And then that company was bought by the Lowe's Corporation and merged with another studio called Metro. Sam left that company and they hired Louis B. Mayer, who was an executive at Paramount to come run it and years later, he put his name on the end of it. So, yeah, so Sammy, and then Samuel Goldwyn, became one of the first independent producers, and had a very long career, and had his own little studio,

but he always distributed through other, you know, through like United Artists. He was one of the people that started United Artists. Really? I mean, I thought that was as a- With Charlie Chaplin, and Douglas Fairbanks, and Mary Pickford, and him him and a few other people. Oh, he was there with them for that?

They started it, yeah, in the 1920, what was it? 1920. That's crazy. Yeah. And he produced some big movies, Oscar winners. He did, he did, yeah. The one he won Best Picture for was The Best Years of Our Lives in 1946.

Now, did you know this guy? I knew him, yeah, I was almost, I think I was 13 when he died, so I knew him very well, yeah. Oh, so you had a guy? I knew him, yeah, I was almost five, I was 13 when he died. So I knew him very well, yeah. Oh, so you had a grandpa, you had an experience. I did, yeah, I didn't know much, I really wasn't that aware at that time of his. I knew he was a successful guy and he was a character,

but he was just my grandpa. Was he a character? Yeah, I adored him, we were really close. He'd retired like the year before I was born, was when he made his last picture. So yeah, he was great. And your dad was in pictures, right? My dad was a producer, yep.

So he was the second generation and also had a really successful career. My dad, who was Sam Jr., found his success, real success after his dad died. he started a company in his father's name called the Samuel Goldwyn Company. Right. And became one of the first guys to distribute independent movies in this country. Like Mystic Pizza.

Like the whole indie movie, Mystic Pizza he did. He did Stranger Than Paradise. Oh really? Jim Jarmer, she's from the first movies. He did Ken Branagh's first movies, Henry V, and alongside Miramax, these companies that were coming up, and a lot of them lasted for a movie or two, and then they went under.

But yeah, so that was his deal, and he, yeah, he died a few years ago, but. Wow. But yeah, he had a great career. So it is, we're all Nepo babies. Yeah, and it's crazy that, you know, but you know, when you talk about Nepo babies, like being a film producer, like you have a name,

but it's not gonna get you anywhere unless you deliver the goods. Well, here's honestly, here's how I feel about it. It's so funny you mentioned it because my daughter, Anna, the writer, she had this idea of doing a podcast about this. Yeah. And she was gonna do it initially with her cousin,

my niece, because they're both, who's also a writer, very successful and doing great. But they were like, and then they, it's not the Nepoth baby thing was getting over, you know, overdone. So she asked me if I would wanna do a podcast with her. So we're planning to do a podcast to talk to other parents and children who are in the same game.

But not necessarily film. No, film, politics, sports. I think that's good, yeah. Auto companies, we're interviewing a friend of mine who's a really amazing civil rights attorney and his daughter's a public defender. Just to talk to people because I've been fascinated with it and I know it was kind of a source of anxiety and neurosis.

For you? For me and I think for my father about me, when I told him I wanted to become an actor, it was rough. He was, it was hard for him. What did he say? You know, he said, he was like, he said, first, the first thing he said, God bless him was, look,

if this is what you want to do, this is your passion, I support you. Yeah. But you're on your own. Right. He's like, you got to figure this out for yourself. And I was like, that's the way I want to do it. That's fine.

He said, and I also knew as an actor, he couldn't really help me. Yeah. I think he did. Your managers can barely help you. Exactly. Your agents can barely really help me. Like, I think he did. Your managers can barely help you. Exactly. Your agents can barely fucking help you. Yeah, you just gotta.

Even if you have the best agent in town. It's so true, it's so true. It's crazy. Yeah. So, you know, and he said to me, I remember one thing when I was about 17 and thinking this is what I wanna do. This would be late 70s.

And he said to me, we were walking down the street and we see a poster of Saturday Night Fever. Yeah. Which was the huge, it was a massive hit. Yeah. And he said, you know, the thing you need to know about this business is an actor,

if you're not John Travolta by the time you're 25, there's really no career. And I just looked at him and I went to myself, at the time you're 25, there's really no career. And I just looked at him and I went to myself, I thought, that can't be true. Right. That can't be, and he was just in a state of anxiety. So he was trying to scare you. Probably, yeah, and I think he might've thought,

you know, he was in a panic. So it turns out, thank God, it was not true. Well, God bless John Travolta. Sure, but it is kind of interesting that you were committed enough. So how did you approach it? I mean, did people, did you get resentment from people because of being a Goldwyn?

You know, probably. I wasn't that aware of it. I think for me, I really learned that it was my own thing. I just had to get over. But it's funny, because you're like one of those guys I think for me, I really learned that it was my own thing. I just had to get over. But it's funny, because you're like one of those guys where people go like, there's that guy. Yeah, right. You're like a character actor.

Yeah, and that's the way I always wanted to be in what I thought of myself at the beginning. And I thought I just need to, I knew I had to figure out my own, you know, I knew once I figured out my own identity, it would be okay. So yeah, and at first, let's see, I started in New York and working in the theater and then realized over a couple of years of that,

I needed, if I wanted to have any traction, I had to break into movies and television. So I came- What'd you study in New York? I studied, well, I went to college. I graduated in Brandeis in Boston and then went to theater school in London for a couple of years.

Really, which one? It's called Lambda, the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Arts. That's a good one, right? Yeah, it's really good, it's really good. And it got me kind of away from Hollywood and all the show business, all the shit I was worried about.

Be a theater guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I came back to New York and studied with Uta Hagen- The real Uta Hagen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was still around? Yeah, she was still around. She was amazing.

And, you know, did that, like class to class and just what you do when you're starting out. Sure. Worked up at Williamstown, you know, for a few years and that's the theater festival in Berkshire. Sure, that's famous. A lot of guys do that. Yeah, and then-

And you did like repertory kind of stuff? It was a summer theater. Yeah, I remember and then I'm he did like repertory kind of stuff like it was I was it was a summer theater Yeah, I remember I listened to your your interview with with Chris planet. He was talking about yeah, that was a great interview with her Yeah, I think he's so talented So yeah, like I started out there. Yeah, he's always really good. Yeah Yeah, I go bad guys so good. I've actually worked for his dad with his dad I directed his dad and something to really really nice guy. Yeah on what I've actually worked for his dad, with his dad. I directed his dad in something too. He's a really nice guy, yeah.

On what? I was trying to remember when I listened to that interview, it was either, it was on a television show. I think it might've been either Dexter or Justified. I was trying to narrow it down. I think he played a judge or something. I remember directing him and he was such a nice guy. Yeah.

So you're in London. You're doing the wave stuff. Yeah, I was, got my equity card there. My union card did that for a few years. And then just started, you know, trying to break into film and TV, which was, Not theater initially? Took a few years.

No, no, I did. I worked at a bunch of theaters in New York and got work pretty quickly. Did it off Broadway and stuff? Off Broadway and like understudied on Broadway and you know, and that was, you know, slow going but it was, I was getting traction. And what was your dad saying?

He was, you know, it was a little schizophrenic. He was super proud of me. Yeah. He came to see everything I did. Yeah. And at the same time, his anxiety was high. It was a little schizophrenic. He was super proud of me. He came to see everything I did. And at the same time, his anxiety was high. So he just- Because he knew the full arc.

Yeah, he just was worried. When I got my first big break in a movie, which was the movie Ghost, which I'd been working for five years before that happened, then I think he took a huge sigh of relief because that also was his vernacular. He understood what a big Hollywood hit was. So that gave him some comfort.

But that movie, your character is not a likable guy. True. True statement. But I think that's why I you know, I didn't... He was horrible, wasn't he? Yeah, but that really hurts my feelings. No, you know, I didn't see him that way. And I think the reason that it worked was because I played him like he was a nice guy.

And then he turns out doing this horrible, you know, behaving extremely badly, portraying his friend. So anyway, whatever. But what was like, but in terms of like, so you think, you know, behaving extremely badly, and portraying his friend. And so anyway, whatever. That was a- But what was like, but in terms of like, so you think, you know, this is it, you got a big role in a big movie, and did that, did you do such a good job

that people were like, that guy's scary? Yeah, sometimes. I mean, not scary, people disliked me. Like, you get to that thing where you're recognized, people know they know you from somewhere, and they can't figure out why. And they're like, I know I don't like you. Yeah.

So, you know, but, uh... But you don't think it stifled your roles? It did. I mean, you get typecast. But that's the way Hollywood works. You know, you're, you have to constantly reinvent yourself in anything you do, so... Your first big movie, of course, you're gonna take have to constantly reinvent yourself in anything you do. So your first big movie, of course you're going to take it no matter what.

I can't imagine that going into it, you're like, this is going to fuck me a little bit. No, are you kidding? Man, it was always a great part. Yeah. And I was so grateful to be in a movie. Yeah. I mean, I, uh, look, the whole, the bargain I made with myself when I was in my early 20s saying I'm gonna do this

was I may never make money and I just wanna work. If I'm working, I'm gonna be, so to then, you know, whatever, six or seven years later, be playing one of the leads in a movie that was really good, I just felt lucky. So afterwards. After Ghost, so what'd your dad say about Ghost? Oh, he was thrilled. He I just felt lucky. So afterwards. After Ghost, so what'd your dad say about Ghost? Oh, he was thrilled.

He was just over the moon. He couldn't believe it. He was so excited. And your mom was always supportive? Yeah, my mom was always supportive. Yeah, sadly she died the year or two after that. She got lung cancer and passed away. But she always was,

because she'd been an actress in her sort of first career in the theater in New York. She was in the and passed away. But she always was, because she'd been an actress, you know, in her sort of first career in the theater in New York. She was in the actress studio, and she, you know, worked with Kazan. You know, she was sort of of that world, so that had real meaning to her. And she kind of was living, I think, a little bit vicariously through me,

because she had given it up and become a painter. Because it was hard. She had a hard time. So yeah, she was good, but then she passed away. But she got to enjoy that and a couple of other movies that I did that were successful, so that was cool. So how does it go after Ghost? Like, was it, you just kept working steady

for the rest of your life? Yes, that's right, But it was weird, man. I mean, so the year I did Ghost, which was this phenomenal hit out of nowhere, and at the same time I was doing a play in New York, it became a big hit and I won an Obie Award for it. It was an off-Broadway play called The Some of Us. It was this Australian play, it was a really beautiful play

and it was very successful. We started it actually at Williamstown and then brought it to New York. And so one year in that year, I had this big hit in the movies. I was in this play and I sort of had said to my agents, I was like, okay guys, here you go. I guess now it all happens, right?

And then, you know, a year later, the next movie didn't make as much money and suddenly I wasn't as hot as I had been the year before. Oh, that quick. And yeah, but then the next two years, I was still working, so I was grateful and I was on the map.

But I was very confused by it. I found it really disorienting. I'd always been quite uncomfortable with the whole sort of phenomenon of like celebrity theme. When it started to come in my way, it made me, I didn't know quite how to relate to it. Yeah. Well, what effect did that have on you? I felt a little fraudulent. I was like, come on, I'm just, where suddenly people who'd paid zero attention to me were suddenly kissing my ass.

Right. And then- It's probably better that you didn't get your head too big. Yeah, there's like a, yeah, and also I knew that's one of the great benefits of being a Nepo baby. Yeah. Is, you know, it's a working profession, you know, so all the bullshit you can kinda smell

and the disingenuousness. So a couple of years after that, it was all going sort of fine. Like you said, I was working and supporting my family and had started to have kids and that was all good. And you did the Pelican Brief? I did the Pelican Brief, which was successful. But a couple of years into that,

there was, you know, there's ups and downs. You just, I realized I had no control over my career. And as you said before, like, you can't just rely on your agents to do it for you. Yeah. But were you also doing, because if you nail one in theater, I mean, you could be in that show for months. Yeah, I had, it was much later that I did long runs of plays.

Once I, I, you know, I would do stuff off-Broadway, which is great, because you do like a six week run. Sure. That play, The Sum of Us, because it was a hit, it ran for, I think I did it for six months or something. Wow, that's a lot. That was a lot for off-Broadway. Yeah.

And then I started getting movies. So I kind of didn't work in the theater for a few years. Uh, because I was, you know, really, uh, starting to get movie roles. And in those days, um, this is, you know, before even, probably before you came on the scene, but in the, in the 80s and 90s, into the 90s, if you worked, um, in television, it was almost impossible to break into film.

And once you've broken into, now it's the opposite. Now when you've broken into, once you've broken into film, you couldn't go back to TV. So that, you know, once I sort of busted through that, I paid attention to just doing movies. All through the 90s, you know, I just did, did films. We did one Broadway play in the middle, mid-90s. Well, when you have that realization that,

you know, you don't have control over this, what do you do? Well, in the, I90s. Well, when you have that realization that, you know, you don't have control over this, what do you do? Well, in the, I guess, you know, I decided I wanted to get control. So a couple of years after Ghost, I said I can't, this lack of agency is, I don't wanna to be doing this

when I'm in my 40s. Just job to job freaking out. Job to job, all of my fortunes being on how my last project did, you know what I mean? Like the hot and cold thing, and I just, I'm not gonna be able to tolerate this, it's not fun. And I wanted to kind of expand my horizons anyway, and one thing my dad always had said to me,

he was like, you're more than an actor. You got a great head for a story and you see, I think you're a director, Tony. Yeah. I said, I don't wanna be a director, I wanna be an actor. And then a couple of years. Why didn't you wanna be a director initially? I just didn't, I didn't think I had the ability.

I didn't have any interest and I was so focused on trying to be a successful actor that I was just tunnel visioned about it. Yeah. And so I started to think about what he said and I thought maybe I need to start branching out. So the way I assumed control over my career was I started looking for projects to produce

so that the next time I was in a hit, I could say, here's this script, great role for me, I wanna do this, when I had leverage. So you opened a production company? No, not even that, it was just me. And I got, I started reading and found a couple of scripts that I worked with the writers on. And one of them I really, really loved

and didn't actually feel that right to act in it. But I said to the writer, let's start working on it and I'll produce it for you. And a few years into doing that, because it takes time. And your brother's a producer? My brother John's a very successful producer too. But.

My younger brother runs a production company. He took over my dad's company and has done very, really successful. But that wasn't really your wheelhouse. Did you have to, how did you learn how to produce? Just by doing it. You know, for me it's all. Which means you had a couple of scripts

that you got from writers, and then if you kind of brought them through the process, you would try to find a star to attach? And. Yeah, yes, yes. I mean, but it was a slower process because I didn't fucking know. I mean... Well, that's what I'm saying.

You know, I had, I called CAA and I was like, this is what I want to do. And they started sending me tons of scripts that were not very good. And then I found a young woman who worked at that agency, who was kind of in charge of all the material around town. She knew everything. She was like the story editor, and she turned me on to this great script. I kind of fell the material around town. She knew everything. She was like the story editor and she turned me onto this great script. I kind of fell in love with it. It was called, at the time it was called The Blouse Man.

And I said, I gotta meet this writer and we started working on it. And I said, I don't really think this is for me to act in. She said, well, would you produce it? Cause I really love your ideas. So it was all like, as an artist, I just said, this is what I think you should do to make your script better.

And so we worked literally for a few years on it. And then I got it into really good shape. And I started meeting directors to give it to. And I thought, they're gonna fuck it up. I don't trust that we've worked so hard on this. It was a delicate piece. I thought, they're gonna screw it up. And one day I went, oh, Pop was right.

I need to do this myself. So I called her up. I one day I went, oh, Pop was right. I need to do this myself. So I called her up. I was like, Pam, sit down. I think I wanna direct this myself, the writer. And she said, great. And then I didn't know how I was gonna get it off the ground. And I got a call randomly from CIA and agency saying, Tony, you control the Blouse Man, don't you?

I said, yeah. And you wanna direct it, right? I said, yeah. And you want to direct it, right? I said, yeah. He said, well, Dustin Hoffman wants to read it. I said, what? He said, Dustin Hoffman has a production company and they've just raised money to finance a bunch of independent films.

And he heard somehow about your script, which I hadn't shown anybody. And so I sent it to Dustin's company and like two days later they called and said, we want to make a deal with you and you can direct it. And it's like after three years of working on this thing, all of a sudden we were starting to cast the movie. And six months later, I was directing a feature film.

It was just one of these, you know. It was called the Blouse Man. And then we changed the title. It ended up, Miramax distributed, ended up being called A Walk on the Moon. It was a movie with Diane Lane and Viggo Mortensen and Leif Schreiber and yeah, yeah, yeah. It was 1999.

And that did all right. It did really well, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that way, and that suddenly changed things for me because I got great reviews and I got a lot of attention, went to Sundance and it was a big, you know. And that was the first thing you ever directed? Mm-hmm. So now, okay, so just tell me, you know, it was like. And that was the first thing you ever directed? Mm-hmm.

So now, okay, so just tell me, you know, because I'm thinking about directing a movie. So now you've just kind of figured out this thing, you got agency support and you wanna direct, but when you get the money to direct, I mean, do you feel confident as a director? No, I knew I didn't know what I was doing. So what do you do then? Well, it was, I knew what to do.

Um, because... From being on sets? I'd been on sets for 10 years at that point. I'd worked with a number of first-time directors and I'd worked with some really good ones and some ones who failed. Yeah. And the ones who failed were the ones who knew,

who thought they had to know everything. Right. Who wanted to like become an expert at the camera and know all the lenses. Yeah. They had, you know, they insisted, they had a preconception of how it was supposed to be. And the ones who were successful were the ones who said,

I know what I'm good at, I know what I know, and I know what I don't know, so I need help. Right. And that was, and also the way, like what I did is, so I hired great people and I said, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I don't know anything about, you know, I've been on sets a lot.

I know about acting and I know the script. I know what story I want to tell. So, but I need you to teach me coverage, shots, you know, script supervisor. I was like, you have to make sure I get all the coverage I need. I said to me, I hired a DP, a wonderful DP named Tony Richmond, who'd like been in the business for 35. I said to me, I hired a DP, a wonderful DP named Tony Richmond,

who'd like been in the business for 35. He used to shoot for Nicholas Rogue. He was a camera assistant on Lawrence of Arabia. He shot the Beatles movies. And in the set, he shot The Man Who Fell to Earth. What's his name? Tony Richmond, he was a great British DP. And then he'd since, you know,

he'd done a lot of great films. He shot Don't Look Now, you know, with Donald Sutherherner, Julie Christie. So, but he had also shot Sean Penn's first movie as an actor on The Indian Runner, which Vigo was also in. And that was only a couple of years before this. And I'd really liked Sean's movie. And he'd worked with a number of first time actor directors.

So I was like, you're perfect for me and you need to teach me. So we did that and I had the same thing with my designers. So that was... It was great. It was great. You got him, you had a meeting, you gave him the script. Yeah, and he would be like, it was awesome. Because the line producer who, you know, was saying, you're never going to make your day. You have to change the

schedule, you have to cut scenes. And he'd just defend me. He'd go, you don't think we can make this? Fucking watch us. And he'd go, come on. And he just, he was great, man. He was wonderful. And he just was into you and the script and that was what it was? Yeah, we got each other.

And I said, look, I know what I, like I said, I know what story we're telling here. And then you learn, man, you realize you know much more than you think you know. Yeah. So I didn't know what lens to put on the camera. But when I looked through, I knew if a shot was working. Do you know now?

Pretty much. But I do the same thing now. You know, I mean, I've now done five feature films and directed a lot of television. And every time you start a new project, I'm always like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't know if this is going to work or if this is going to be a disaster. Sure.'m always like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't know if this is gonna work or if this is gonna be a disaster.

So I've come to really embrace that student mentality. I mean, you were able to get mentored by this guy who really knew what he was doing for the first time out. Yeah. What are some of the things you learned that stay with you from that guy? Let the actors, he used to say to me, let the actors tell you where to place the camera.

Really? That was the biggest thing. I mean, he said a lot to me, but that was it. He would always, because I, in terms of shot listing, Yeah. I never shot list. Yeah. I never do, never do.

And he said, don't shot list. He said, Tony, I've been doing this for 40 years. You'll get your shots. Don't shot list. Yeah. Stay present in what's happening. Right. And watch what the actors are doing.

And the scene will evolve, and you know how to stage it, because you're an actor. And then based on what the actors are doing, that will tell us where the camera's supposed to go. We might have an idea of a shot we want to do. We might have like a cool thing we think, or we need to order a piece of machinery ahead

because you know, you gotta plan a little bit. A crane. A crane or you know, we have an idea. Yeah. But he said everything has to be changeable and react to what's happening in the present. That was the greatest advice. And subsequently, I've worked with some world-class DPs

who the best of them worked that way. You know, whether it's Janusz Kaminski, you know, who I've shot a lot of commercials with who the best of them worked that way. Whether it's Janusz Kaminski, who I've shot a lot of commercials with. Janusz shot a pilot that I produced and directed. Janusz shoots all of Steven Spielberg's movies, there's one or two Academy Awards, and he's a brilliant man.

When Janusz and I were preparing this pilot of the series I did called The Divide for AMC, we were sitting down and we were talking about the script and I was like, Janusz, you know, normally I'll go through and we can talk and prepare and go through the script. And he's Polish and he said, Tony, if you want to, we can talk, but we don't need to talk. And I was like, okay.

And the way he worked was completely, you know, he has ADD and he's a genius. So he just shows up to the set and when there's actors on the set and you're in a rehearsal, he's like an eagle. His eyes are just glued. And in about 30 seconds, he's like, yep, then we're gonna do this, this, this, this, this,

this, this, and this. He completely is responding to what's happening in the present moment. So anyway, that's the related thing. That's the thing I've learned. It's just become my watchword as a director. Well, that's interesting because I know some directors are kind of micromanagey and there are certain

specific types of directors who will micromanage everything. But that's not the vibe that you want. It's just not how I've ever done my best work as an actor. The thing that, look, you work with some world-class directors who have planned everything out in advance. Yeah. And they know exactly what they're gonna do.

And as actors, our jobs are to fulfill that vision. People's brains work in different ways. Being an actor, if I would did that, it would be shitty. It wouldn't be how I would do the work. So what I said to myself, when I did that film, A Walk on the Moon, I was like, what would be my ideal director? What are the qualities I've most craved

and so rarely had in directors as an actor? Yeah. So let me just try and be that. So it was about creating a space that people would wanna work in, you know, and then surround myself with good people. So yeah, that's just been my style and it's worked. You know, some things haven't worked,

some things have not been successful, but I'm. Like what? The things that I've done that have been less successful are when I've done them, because I thought it was a strategic, the strategic career move. Like the movie I did after A Walk on the Moon was one that I wasn't terribly proud of.

I think it's fine, people seem to like it, but it was a romantic comedy called Someone Like You it's with Ashley Judd and Hugh Jackman. And we had a great time making it and Ashley and Hugh were great and Greg Kinnear was in it and Marissa Tomei. But it was a fairly studio kind of generic programmer of a rom-com. So you took a gig.

I took a gig and I, you know, it was very well paid and it was green lit and stars attached and I thought, oh, this is what this will be, we're super commercial, so I should do this. Did you get to pick your AD, your DP? Uh-huh, I got to pick everybody. And Fox who produced it were, you know, great, but it was very much thinking, oh, this is the right commercial move and it ended up being fine. Yeah.

You know, it wasn't much of an expression of, you know, from my heart. Well, that's interesting though, because when you look at it, like, you know, grandfather and your father, you know, who are producers, and they may not be directors, but you start to realize, like, well, you're gonna have, you know, one good one to every five okay ones. Yeah.

You know, because like, it's just the nature of the business. I don't think people really think about that unless, say, they know what producers do. Because you look at like old Hollywood. I mean, they were churning out hundreds of fucking movies. Oh, no, that's so right, Marc. That's right. And nobody, you know, most people don't know any of them unless they're a deep film nerd.

But a lot of them were just, they knew going in that was just going to be okay. Yeah. But they got to still get asses in the seats. unless they're a deep film nerd, but a lot of them were just, they knew going in that was just gonna be okay. Yeah. But they gotta still get asses in the seats. Yeah, and they would make, I mean, the unfortunate, when you're a director, you know, particularly in this day and age, in the studio days,

you would direct 10 movies a year. Maybe not 10, but I mean, you would just be put on assignment, assignment, assignment, assignment, assignment, and then if you were a really terrific director, you know, every couple of years, you'd have one that hit. And then if you're, you know, if you're William Wyler or Billy Wilder or, you know, you know, the great directors of John Ford, you know, but those guys directed a lot of movies that we'd never have heard of. Right, because they were in the system. But in modern day, it's a much more freelance endeavor. So if you are making a movie every few years,

you're incredibly prolific. So, you know, I mean, I've directed five movies now and the only thing I do now is I'm just not gonna do it if it's not from, you know, my heart, my guts that I, because hey, my heart, my guts, because hey, it takes, it's really hard work, it takes a couple of years. Yeah. Even when it's green lit, it takes a couple of years

to get through the process. Yeah. Not to mention how many years it's taken you to develop it, to get it to the point where it's actually gonna happen. I know, it's crazy, it's always been a deterrent to me. Oh, it's nuts, it's nuts. It's like, you know, like, and then even after you go the full arc, who the hell knows what's gonna happen to it

once you get it out there? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, exactly. You never know. I mean, and with independent film, your movie may never even get released. I mean, we premiered at TIFF this year with my new film, Ezra, and you know, thank God we sold the movie,

but we financed it independently. And until you sell it, you have no idea, you could not find an audience. I love that movie and we'll talk about it in a second. But like, I just wanna know, so during this time you're directing and you've got all these things going, I imagine you have people working for you. No, you mean as like a production company?

Yeah. No, it's weird, man. I never, I started to like assemble an operation and I just, it's not my style. I was much more, I would put together for each venture what I needed. So, but you're taking acting gigs all the way through it. Yeah. So you're in the trailer producing a movie too? Often, yeah. And I love that. You know, like I remember I made a movie in 2010 called Conviction. Yeah.

And it was just so fun. Like that was a movie it took eight years to get in front of the camera. It was greenlit. You produced it and acted in it. I produced it, developed it from a, you know, it was a true story. Yeah.

So from something you saw in the news, you know, worked on it. It was greenlit and fell apart two or three times. Yeah. We finally got it made. And when we were just finishing up that movie, I was also doing a Broadway musical as an actor. And then leaving the theater and then going

to the cutting room. And it was just awesome to be able to go back and forth and do all that. And then, yeah, so it was, it's great to be able to, but you do that, I mean, with this and your stand up and going and doing acting gigs, right? Don't you like the mixing it up in that way? Well, I don't know.

For me, like I am painfully me all the time. Like I don't do acting roles and I haven't yet. So am I. I got new, we are all painfully ourselves. Like when I do an acting role, I'm not like, oh great, I can just lose myself in this character. Because like usually, you know, two or three days into an acting role, I'm like, well, this is basically me.

Yeah, I don't know. I think if you're working right, it should always feel like that. That it's basically you? Yeah. Okay. I think so. Like, I mean, I have actually played characters who people go, oh my God, you

were so different from that, so different from the other thing. And I was like, didn't really feel like that. Okay. Oh, that's good to know because, you know, I can see that when I do things, you're going to, like, if you're not one of these transformational people that's going to spend, you know, uh, three months learning a Polish accent or spend, you know, three months learning a Polish accent or something. You know, you are just kind of dealing with your emotional tools.

But when you get a script to act in, you know, how do you start to do the work? Is it all on the page for you? Oh, fuck. Uh... Like I said before, every time I do something, I go, I have no idea how to do this. And I've been doing it for 40 years.

I know, I couldn't sleep last night. Because I'm like, I can't I have no idea how to do this. And I've been doing it for 40 years. I know, I couldn't sleep last night. Because I'm like, I can't do this. They got the wrong guy. I think most of my personality is a fraud. So I don't know how, but then like I somehow spun that in my anxiety head. I'm like, well, that means you're acting. So just make up another guy.

If you're a fraud, great. Take notes on what you're getting away with now. Exactly, exactly. Look, whatever works, man. And I've sort of made friends with that, with that sort of terror of going, I literally don't know what I'm doing. And anything I used as a technique before

has abandoned me, it doesn't work anymore. And I've just kind of, so every time I feel like I'm reinventing it, like inventing a new approach or a new technique, a new way to get inside of it. And I would say some things are very, you know, I get cast. I just saw you in hacks. It feels very similar to me.

See, I did a part in hacks. You just did hacks. You know, like, and that's fine. And then other things I've done seem a great distance from what I'm like as a person. Sure. But again, if you're learning, and there are certain technical challenges

if you have to learn an accent or, I don't know. Whatever the... Did you enjoy it? Kind of, but like it... Did you go to a coach and stuff? I did a coach for two Leslie. I did a mild kind of Texan thing. Oh yeah, I love that movie by the way.

Oh thanks. Yeah, and you were great in it. Oh thanks. And I think I got away with it. The coach found me a fairly manageable Texan thing. But then when you're doing that, even when you do the coach, you've got that phonetic sheet. So, and then you've got to, you kind of make choices around the line, but then make sure you're hitting all the consonants correctly. So that's another layer to the work.

But that guy, for example, I would say, we haven't known each other that long, but knowing you from listening to you talking and watching your comedy and stuff, that guy had a very different energy than you do in the world. Well, the two big characters I've played, Sam Sylvia and Glo, and this guy,

they both had a certain lack of a type of neurotic self-awareness that I have. So, like, if you take that away, you know, then I'm, I, that's what I've sort of figured out about acting. It's like, what of me do I have to remove or amplify? Yeah. Right? You know, so, like, this guy's not neurotic. Well, great, that's gonna be a break for me.

That's really good. I'm gonna steal that. Okay, that's good. That's helpful. Because, I mean, that's sort of what you're doing. Yeah's really good, I'm gonna steal that. That's good, that's helpful. Because I mean, that's sort of what you're doing, right? And it's on the script, and I knew with the Two Leslie thing that he was fundamentally codependent with this person because of whatever his life had been. He was that kind of guy,

kind of a selfless, slightly beaten fella. And I can relate to that to a certain degree, but also I knew it was her movie. on and off screen I'm like you know I'm kind of differential right right right right and it helped yeah beta to do that yeah so like I was able to use that you know yeah but that's the thing look I mean what I what keeps me interested in the job is that, I love that thing you just said about sort of muting certain parts of yourself.

So you have to have a certain self-awareness of like, oh yeah, that doesn't feel right to me because I tend to approach things in this way. So I'm just gonna dial that, pull that fader down. We're trying to tap into something as, in the same way that we will watch a movie and see whoever playing a role, Andrea Riisborough or you doing that part.

And I don't know Andrea, but I can imagine she's not like Leslie, you know, and go. Oh my God, she's British. It was like you're dealing with one of the transformational, you know, savants. Oh, she's just, she's a master. But I'll see this character that's so different and yet I completely relate to her.

I completely get it. So we all have all of that in ourselves and in our sort of collective humanity. If the script is good. If the script is good. So you're like, okay, let me turn up the volume on that thing that I just never live in that space. Right.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna explore this part of myself. So then yet again, it is yourself. It's just yourself under different circumstances. And if you're lucky, you, you know, you're a little nervous about that space because you've avoided it in yourself. Yeah, for sure. And then you really get something out of it.

For sure. You know, cause I, I just learned that, I did one scene with Robert De Niro on The Joker. You know, he's a guy that's gonna do his job no matter what what. Yeah, you know whether you know, you're doing a good job or not Yeah, and he doesn't judge either. I mean I work to him. He's just present. Yeah, right. It's kind of Fascinating thing because you got a bit like an amazing performance out of them I mean like sometimes like older De Niro like when he does these working class characters that are quirky, it's really some of the best stuff he does.

He figures out, I'm a little more attentive to the work. This guy was a boxer when he was younger, so he has that weird thing he does with his hands every so often. But you didn't tell him to do that. Well, I did actually. He, it was in the script much more, because we worked a lot on his character and he was very, he was very helpful

and made a huge contribution to the development of his character in the script. But the character has always been a boxer and he used to have like monologues about boxing. And the original scripts? In the original boxer, and he used to have, like, monologues about boxing. And, um... In the original scripts? In the original script, and we started to strip it away, because it was unnecessary backstory

that we just didn't need. Yeah. And, um, and yet there was a few vestiges of it remained. And we had one scene where, um, he was, uh, he, you know, was like, there was this scene with Rose Byrne when he's upset with her, and does this shadow boxing thing to burn up, to deal with his frustration. And Bob was like, I don't know about the boxing.

I said, Bob, just give it a try. You don't have it doesn't work for you. Let's just do a taker. And she was like, yeah, I don't know. OK, I'll try it. I'll try it. And he did it. And it was good.

Did he feel that? I don't know it. And he did it, and it was good. Did he feel that? I don't know. But then he did it a couple, another time, we were there at a gas station, he gets in, he's doing the same thing. I think I just said, you know, just try it, see. And then he kind of picked it up as a little kid. Yeah, he was a little uncomfortable with it,

but it definitely worked. But the funny thing is, that guy, out of all the actors, he knows how to throw a punch. Totally, exactly right. He was Jake Lamotta for like a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, and it comes back. Uh-huh.

So, but yeah, I mean, that's interesting about acting. And it's like right now, I'm in it. I gotta leave for Vancouver tomorrow and I just had this. You're doing a movie right now? No, it's a TV show. It's with Owen Wilson. You know, but like last night I had that sort of like, you know, horrible, you know, kind of couldn't sleep.

Yeah. And I'm like, I'm terrible. There's no way I'm getting, how am I, why did they fucking hire me? Maybe I can, maybe the best thing could happen. They fire me. I'd get someone else. I can recommend a few guys they could, they could use.

I love being older now. Cause I just can have such a sense of humor about my own neurosis. Yeah. Because I have the same sleepless nights. You do. And be like, or finish a day's work with a great director and be like, ah, it's fucking sucked. I blew it.

It was like, whether it's Nolan or one of these great other, and you're like, ah, I don't know. What'd you do with Nolan? I was in Oppenheimer. Oh, that's right. I was actually in a lot of the movie, but I don't know. What'd you do at Nolan? I was in Oppenheimer. Oh, that's right. I was actually in a lot of the movie, but I didn't have that.

I was the guy who was the, chaired the committee that stripped him of his security clearance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there were all these hearing rooms. I was basically like, kind of an extra, because I was in, you know, that's like you cut back and forth throughout the movie

to this hearing where he ultimately stripped. And I was the chair. So, you know, I mean, I would mainly was there going with all these amazing actors coming in and testifying before us and I'd be like, yes, General, continue General. Thank you, General. Yes, the next webinar will be. You're happy to be there, right? Oh man, that was thrilling. It was right before we did Ezra. So being on his set was super inspiring because he's just... That was worth it. You know, for the week or two, whatever I worked on that movie, just to be...

Yeah, I just watched Tenet, and I don't get it. But it's all right. Tenet's really confusing. I didn't understand it. I understand he's a great director. I didn't get it. But, um... Because I liked Oppenheimer, and I liked the Batman one. But, uh... But that's interesting, because, like, it's so weird to be an actor

and they go, okay, we're moving on. And in your head you're like, are you sure? Because I don't know if you got it. Oh, yeah. I all... But you got it. Probably, yeah. Always. I mean, now I kind of insist and go, no, I need to... Like, before they even... I'm gonna do another one.

I want to go again. can we go again? Yeah. And then if a director's really certain and they say, no, we're good, I like it, we're good, we gotta move on, and you're like, okay. Yeah, but then you watch that thing and you're like, that was that moment where I didn't quite nail it. Yeah, but I'm often wrong about that.

Oh, good. Oh yeah, like I will worry about things not working and I'm like, ah, and I'm often wrong about that. Oh, good. Oh, yeah. Like, I will worry about things not working. And I'm like, ah. And I've learned, then I'll watch it, and I'll be like, that was fine. What was I worried about? And if it's something else I thought was really good, I'd be like, that wasn't so good. Yeah.

So, you just can't, you just have to... But we're gonna be more sensitive about it than anyone else. Of course. But I do find it's helpful to just, at the times that I go, can I just do another one and need another take? Yeah. Even if a director says no? Yeah.

And usually they say yes. Sure. Even if they say no, you at least try it. And then I can go, you know what? I wanted another one. You know, as opposed to that horrible feeling as an actor, when you're like, ah, I'm not sure if I got it. Yeah. OK, you want to move I'm not sure if I got it.

Okay, you want to move on? All right, I guess it's okay. And then you just walk away feeling, but if you're like, I need another one, and you've just said it, then you're somehow absolved. Yeah, well, that's the great thing about digital. You know you're not like spinning machines. Like digital affords you a little more leeway.

It does. Well, then shooting on film when you're burning through film. We shot two less way on film in like three weeks. Three weeks. I know, film's expensive. But it was like no more than two takes. It was crazy in the middle of COVID. The only time people were actually talking

to each other face to face is when me and Andrea or any of the other actors were on screen. That was the only time, like, the only time that masks were off was sort of like, OK. Wasn't that horrible? Oh, god, doing that, working during COVID was so weird. I think I have PTSD about the whole thing. But what did all the experience with directing TV kind of,

how did that add to your abilities? It was, it was. Because you've done a lot. I have done a lot of TV. And there was a period where I did too much. Like, I directed, I guess, my first two movies. Yeah. And then I got offered a television show.

And my agent said, I don't think you should do this, because, you know, TV, it'll be like a step down or something. And I thought, you know what? First of all, I've never been that precious about my career. Second of all, if I only direct a movie every four years, how much does that make me a better director? Like I wanna just work and shoot.

So I said yes, and I enjoyed it. It's sort of like doing an abbreviated version of a movie. It's a different job in a way, but you have to work very fast and you only have like a week to prep. Whereas in a movie you prep for six months and maybe you prep for years if you're working on a script. So you gotta, and then you shoot for however many days

that shoot the, you know, eight, 10 days if it's a bigger budget thing, maybe more, but not much more. And then you do your cut in a few days and then you turn it in. Whereas I cut a movie for six months. The television show you cut in five days and then you turn it over to the producer.

So it makes you work very quickly and you work on a lot of different kinds of material. And you're not as married to it, I guess? And you're not as married, it's like a workout. So it was like going to the gym. You know what I mean? Sure. The danger of it, particularly doing like

some network stuff that where they have a very established formula to it. You know, you have to be careful you don't turn to, skitz out for mediocre. You're like, oh, this is just how we do it. Okay, crank it out, make the day. Then you start to get bored and you can get, you really in television, you can really,

I think personally, you can really see when something's well directed and when it's just okay. Like I'll watch a series and I go, who directed that episode? You really notice when there are... When they nail it. When there, you go, who is that person? And I'm always super impressed

with good television directors, because then everyone's fine, but there are a lot of people who just do, you know. Yeah, people who have a point of view that you can notice. A point of view, and you know, and they've paid attention to the detail and the performances are really, all of them are good and the shots are not generic, they're kind of motivated

and it feels like the camera's alive and it's not just repeating every day they shoot the same thing and that's how they do it. So I, you know, I always. Well, that's what I noticed about like, cause when I got sent Ezra, your new movie, I didn't know anything about it, zero. Before I turned it on, knew nothing.

I don't even think I knew that Bobby Cannavale was in it. I didn't know anything. And I turned it on and right away, and I'm noticing this about certain material now, right away there was a sort of human truth to it that I knew couldn't be Made up Thank you that means a lot. Do you know what I mean? Like I knew that the story

Like even like, you know as a one-line pitch, you know, it's like why would you make that movie? Right unless it was a real story, right? So right away I was like, well, there's something real going on here. I don't know exactly why, I still didn't know. And then I started watching it, I was very taken in by it, and then like De Niro's nailing it, and Bobby's better than he's ever been.

And I'm not saying that lightly, he's done a lot of work, and we have an email relationship. I occasionally- I know he was sorry, he told me you sent him an email. I did. He said, Mark Maron just wrote me. I was- I know, he was sorry. He told me you sent him an email. I did. He said, Mark Maron just wrote me.

I was like, yeah, I'm doing his podcast this week. Well, yeah, because I said, this is some of the best work you've ever done. Because, you know, he wasn't constricted or typecast. So like, you know, being a comedian, like I could be critical of that, you know, and I think I do have notes on that. It's a little late for them. But- I'd be curious to know. You know, and I think I do have notes on that. It's a little late

for them. Mm-hmm. I'd be curious to know. Oh, yeah, sure. But ultimately, like, the story grabbed me right away. And the kid was so good. I mean, it's a story about an autistic kid and the struggles that his parents are going through to try to do the right thing by him. And De Niro plays the grandfather. So but right away, I started noticing the direction. I was like, this guy's got a handle on this. Like, you know, because a lot of indie movies,

you're like, well, you know what I mean? It doesn't seem, you know, tight. But it's very tight and all the shots are tight and you know, you're very attentive to everything that's important. And I was like, what the fuck is going on? This is a good movie. Does anyone know this? And wait, it's not even out yet.

But right? Right, yeah, it comes out May 31st. Right, so I'm like, how come I've ever heard about this? No one's seen it. But ultimately, I just saw it emotionally was great, and it was all sort of believable. And I don't know where that all came from. But in terms of Bobby Cannavale being a comedian,

I thought he shot that well and I thought he handled it well, but like in the current climate of comedy, I know it would be tough for a comic that does that. Do you know what I mean? That is that personal and the jokes require a certain set of differences because of the nature of audiences, but I didn't think it was a liability. Yeah, no, it was one of the things, you know, it's hard to, it's often done badly in movies.

Stand-up is really hard to pull off when an actor is doing stand-up. And Bobby has always, you know, he has a lot of friends who are comedians. Yeah, he's Burt's buddy. Yeah, he's Bill Burt's buddy and he knows the world and loves it and really wanted, he was terrified. But he spent a lot of time and Bill, you know, helped him out with it. And then-

I thought he did very well with it. You know, and also, you know, Tony Spirodakis, who wrote it, and it is based on his life. It's not a true story, but he has an autistic son and went through an ordeal when his son was 11 years old. And his marriage broke up and it was very, so he wanted to write a movie about it. So all the father, son, you know, stuff is very personal and a lot of the stuff in the movie actually

is based on things that happened to Tony in his life experience. So, but in terms of the standup, you know, he wrote all that himself and we were, you know, we were always talking, well, do we want to get a comedian to come in and, you know, punch this up and make the comedy really feel real?

And I think it was Bill Burr was working with Bobby and he was like, you know what, dude, fuck that. Yeah. You don't, you don't, not everybody has to be funny all the time. Right. And Bobby's character was a late night comedy, a late night writer who had been quite successful

in late night and kind of got bounced from that world and is now in standup and he's not, maybe he will, he's not like a big comedian. So we were like, Bobby was like, well, maybe that thing has to be funny. So let's just tell a story with his monologue. Believe me, I, as a guy. So we were like, yeah, it could be funnier,

but we just kind of went with that. No, no. And that was quite freeing in a way. No, I thought it a guy. So, you know, we were like, yeah, it could be funnier, but we just kind of went with that, you know? No, no. And that was quite freeing in a way. No, I thought it was good. Yeah, but, you know, that, you know, I didn't quite put that together, because I like a comic that's, you know, on the edge. I'm that guy.

I've definitely, you know, crapped out talking about yourself. And the fact that he was struggling with real emotional issues, and that he couldn't land it, or, you know, he, you know, has a kind of self-sabotage, you know,otage mechanism from the way he was brought up. That's right.

So like the character was all solid, but like it is interesting that you just let him like, well, if he's gonna tank the set, fuck it. And I miss that, I miss seeing people tank on the tank set. Yeah, yeah, and the other thing that's fun to do is I thought, okay, if we can establish the world of The Cellar, which is this comedy club in New York where he plays. And so we, in the beginning of the movie,

we just surrounded him with real comics. Emma Willman and Dove Davidoff and Greer Barnes. You know Greer, who's hilarious, man. Been around forever, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're just people that play at the cellar. And so, and then there's this one scene early in the movie where they're all sitting around the table

and they're giving him shit about how unfunny he is. And they were super helpful to Bobby as well. Yeah, and Dove's a good actor. Dove is a really good actor, yeah, yeah. So it was just to, I figured like, if you just can create a world that feels authentic, then you don't need to, I don't know, that was the kind of approach. No, it worked out great.

And the kid, but what kind of, in making this movie, I mean, you have to deal with the judgment of the autistic community of, I don't know what you would call it, their parents, and I don't know, autistic community of, of, I don't know what you would call it, their parents. And, and I don't know, but I mean, there is a world where, you know, autism and neurodivergent people, you know, want representation like in the other groups. So how did you deal with that?

Well, the first thing was we knew we were not going to cast a neurotypical kid to play Ezra. Right. We were going to find an autistic young man to play this role. So that was number one. And then number two was involving the autism community deeply in the project so that we,

that they were a part of it and that then that they were also, that they could make sure we were getting it right and telling the truth. So, so we have a number of consultants who worked with us. Bob's son is autistic, De Niro's son, Bill Horberg, our producer, his son is autistic. So we had autistic parents in our inner circle, actors playing the smaller parts around the spectrum.

We had crew members on the spectrum. We had an associate producer who was kind of like our autistic consultant on set to work with William, the young actor we found, who's amazing. This guy, Alex Plank, who was really helpful. Anything that felt off in the script, he'd like question it and we'd discuss it. And an amazing woman here in LA called Elaine Hall,

who's deeply an educator in the autism community was a part of it. You know, it's just so, you just bring people into the tent, you know, and they keep you in. As soon as we had a cut of the movie, we were inviting parents, caregivers, teachers, autistic people themselves to watch the cuts and go, okay, what do you think?

And so as a result, the community's really embraced it. Yeah, I thought the kid was great. Yeah, and he's really, he has never acted before and he was just a natural man. It was hard, it was Ezra has different sensitivities to William, the actor. William has sensitivities himself, things that are really tough for him

that actually don't bother Ezra. Ezra has a difficulty with eye contact, which a lot of autistic people, he hates being touched, that's like physically painful for him to be touched. William doesn't have those issues. Both of them are like intensely intelligent. So they're very similar in that way.

Yeah. Um, both, you know, both of them are super witty and verbal. So there were, there were things that were very similar and things that were different, you know? Um, so it was, it was great. So William was able to kind of adapt his sensitivity into, into, um, into Ezra's and kind of made it his own.

And he improvised a lot. He's just a natural actor, completely unintimidated by, you know, anybody. It was De Niro. He was just make fun of De Niro. Oh yeah. For a time, you know. Yeah. Which Bob loved, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, because everyone's, you know, so careful around De Niro. Have you worked with Bob before? No, this is my first time meeting him, yeah. And he just liked the script? Yeah, he had some criticisms of it to begin with. He was, you know, he was my first choice,

our first choice. Sure. The way we sort of put the movie together, we had to find Max. And Bobby was someone I just knew Bobby had the contrasting qualities that we needed of like this big hearted guy who could cave like a total asshole and you'd still go,

yeah, but I still kind of love him. Yeah, right. And so when Bobby engaged, decided to join us, we then went out to Bob. And he- And they had worked together before. They had worked together, yep. And he really likes Bobby a lot.

And Bob's agent, who's an old friend of mine, was like, I think Bob might, this might be interest to him, so let me just see. And I thought it would take, usually it takes like a month to get a response from someone like that. And three days later, Josh's agent called me up and said, why didn't you call me?

I was like, what, it's only been three days. He said, Bob read the script, he really wants to talk to you. So he responded to it. But having, I think honestly, having an autistic son himself, he was very, his bullshit meter is always very sharply tuned, but he was, he wanted to make sure we got it right.

And so we had several conversations and he really pressured Tony to give a lot more dimension to his character and to bring levels that Tony had not yet discovered. So he was really great in the, you know, the months before we made the movie. Honestly, what he said when we first met, he's like, I really like it.

It's a beautiful script. It's a beautiful story. I can tell that it's personal, just like what you said. He said, but I don't know that this is a part I have to play. He said, there's just not maybe enough for me to say yes. And I was like, okay, what do you feel that it's missing? And he started to talk and I said, well, Bob, I would do that not just for you. That will make our script so much better. Your ideas are so helpful. I said, well, Bob, I would do that not just for you,

that will make our script so much better. Your ideas are so helpful. He said, okay, if you feel that way, let's see what Tony wants to do, you know? And so then Tony immediately was like, wait, I got them on a phone. And Tony like literally in 48 hours rewrote the whole thing. I couldn't believe it. He's a machine. What were the...

Okay, so what it was was the original concept of the character, he was almost like the comic relief. Right. When Tony first started telling the story about his autistic son, based on his autistic experience, 10 years ago when he started working on the script, he was like, the only way an audience is gonna be able to tolerate this movie is if it's funny,

is if it's a comedy. We can't like, autism at that time still was not nearly as talked about as it is now, frankly. So he was leaning really hard on the comedy and the tone of it and the character of Stan, who Bob plays, Bobby's father, was just always had a quip. Tony had imagined Alan Arkin.

So if you think of like great performance of Alan Arkin in like Little Miss Sunshine, as brilliant as Alan was in that, you know, like he was just always hilarious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there was all these, and Bob was like, get rid of all that shit. The zippers was not me,

and there's a deeper level to be had here. There's more depth, don't get jokey with it. He really objected to the jokeyness and the sort of lighter tone that he was like, he was like not really going there, if you know what I mean. And Tony just said, you're right. And he unearthed a whole, there was, you know, I guess in those early scenes, the tension between Bobby and Bob, between Max and Stan, his father, it was kind of a cute, bantery relationship.

Sure, it's a little in there, a little bit. Which is in there a little bit, but it's much now they have real conflict and they really knock heads and they have real disagreement and Stan, De Niro's character, is not on board with the choices that Max is making. In the original script, he was kind of like, ah, you crazy Max, you know, okay, I'm here for you, kid, kind of thing.

And then Bob wasn't buying it. And sort of Bob's point of view was sort of the conflict within, Bob De Niro's point of view was in the conflict within the character Cannavale was playing, which was like, you know, he didn't even want to hear a diagnosis. He's just like, this kid will be fine. You know, let him deal with regular kids.

You know, that whole idea. So that's what you replaced the comedy with. Yes, and also a darker past between them. You know, the whole thing with the mother. With the mother, I mean, that was always in there a little bit, but it was just lighter touching. And the big thing, you know, Bob has this great scene toward the end of the movie where he makes a confession to Max and he has some, you know, an atonement

he feels he must make to his son. That was not in the original. That's what that whole kind of like arc of Bob's character where he needs to do that to make things, to honor his son in that way, That's what that whole kind of like arc of Bob's character where he needs to do that to make things, to honor his son in that way was not in the movie. So that was all his contribution and that needy scene was not, it was a very, it was a lightweight,

it was in the scene but it wasn't what it was, yeah. Yeah, well that gives you the whole backstory of kind of Olly's character and why he's like the old man and there's connective tissue there. Yeah, and you said there was maybe abuse in that relationship, you know? And that all stuff all came out of that. There's sort of darker edges to it,

which I really appreciated. But the funny thing is is that it's not dark in a way that's too heavy because the way De Niro's playing, he's a character. You know, you got a few moments as a doorman, and then you got that dynamic with him and Rose Byrne, which is, you know, there may be darkness there, but he's also, he's not funny, but he's an entertaining character.

He's ironic, and he's funny. He has this story, because his character was a chef before. He was quite a successful chef, but he couldn't get along with people, and he ultimately had to case, he has this story because his character was a chef before, he was really quite a successful chef, but he couldn't get along with people and he ultimately had to become a doorman because he was a single dad. And he has this thing where, that Bobby's character teases him about,

about punching a customer in the face because he didn't like the way his steak was cooked. And De Niro was like, yeah, the guy returns that was a perfectly cooked steak. He returns, he says, there's no blood on my plate on this Steak it's overcooked. Yeah, and he says so I punched him in the face and I said there you go Now you got blood on your plate. You're happy It's like he's funny in that way, right?

And there's that whole like that thread with the pan that the pan the rain Wilson's rain Wilson stole from him Yeah, yeah rain did a good job. Yeah, yeah Great job. Well, thanks man. in a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Rain's great. It was all good, man. Great job. Well, thanks, man. I appreciate that. Good talking to you. Yeah, likewise, likewise. There you go.

That's a real life in show business. His film, Ezra, opens in theaters tomorrow, May 31st. Hang out for a minute, will ya? I've got some news about our shows next week. Hang out for a minute, will you? I've got some news about our shows next week. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions. At Enterprise Mobility, we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities.

Because if your business is on the road, we want to make sure it's on the road to success. Enterprise Mobility. Moving you moves the world. So folks, it's a theme week on WTF next week. My guests on Monday and Thursday, both just wrapped up 12 seasons of Making Curb Your Enthusiasm. On Monday, you'll hear my talk with Susie Essman, who I've known forever.

It all happens on stage for the most part. Me too. That was one of the reasons why it was so anxiety provoking. Because this is how I would write a punchline. I would have a premise, an idea, not a premise even, just an idea, and I would go on stage, and it was like the gun to my head. A punchline would come to me on stage.

That's it, that's the way to do it. That's how I always wrote. I was never, you know, like somebody like- But then the way to do it. That's how I always wrote. I was never, you know, like somebody like. But then did you hold onto it though? Yeah. Yeah, right. Then you hold it. That's right. But I mean, it's terrifying to work that way

and exhilarating at the same time. And then on Thursday, yes, it finally happened and you'll get to hear it, my talk in the garage with Larry David. Okay. You all right? Yeah. Now you gotta, yeah, you can, you've been on a mic before. Larry David. You all right? Yeah. Now you got to, yeah, you can, you've been on a mic before.

Oh yeah. You want to? I turned my phone off, you have nothing to be concerned about. The phone is the least of my worries. We probably just should have run that, what we did. Why are you even gonna say that to me? Why would you even say that to me? Why would you even say that to me? Jesus Christ.

Well, this could be better. That's Curb Week with Suzy Essman and Larry David next week on WTF. And don't forget, you can get all WTF episodes ad free by signing up at the link in the episode description or by going to WTFPod.com and clicking on WTF+. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast Here's some guitar From the vault if you can identify when I did this you're you're in you're in deep deep So So So So So So Boomer lives! Monkey!

La Fonda! Yeah! Cat angels everywhere, man! Thanks for watching.