WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1544 - Susie Essman

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

After twenty-four years and twelve seasons as Susie Greene on Curb Your Enthusiasm, Susie Essman’s life has become strangers seeing her on the street and asking her to curse them out. Susie tells Marc the ins and outs of making Curb and why so many people have trouble separating the characters from the people who play them. They also talk about Larry David, doctor fathers, making depressed parents laugh, and why Susie is glad to be done with standup. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF, for a long time. Like since 2009, where you are still plugging along, going at it, doing the thing, doing the big work. How's everybody out there?

Are you all right? Today on the show, I talked to Susie Essman. Susie Essman. Susie Essman is a comedian I have known for, I've probably known her 35 years. Now, not unlike many comedians, I, you know, we don't hang out, but I've known her. And now for more than 20 years,

she was known as Susie Green across 12 seasons of Curb Your Enthusiasm, which just had its series finale in April. And I've never really sat down and talked to her and it was great. It was great. I remember her from way back. You know, it's just, you get to a certain age,

you've lived in a number of cities, you start to realize you've lived several lives. Not unlike a cat or the mythical cat. I think I'm about on life six, maybe six. So what's that give me, three? Also this week, I talked to Larry David on Thursday. That was a long time coming and it was great to talk to him. And I think you'll enjoy it. So I have

a show in Vancouver on Friday June 21st at the Vogue Theatre then I'm in Seattle on Saturday June 22nd at the Moore Theatre. In the fall I'm coming to Tucson, Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Boulder, Colorado, Joliet, Illinois, Skokie, Illinois, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sacramento, and Napa, California. That's the plan. To get all my dates, including the ones from the summer that I had to reschedule, go to WTFpod.com slash tour.

And also I just like to champion. I'm getting to this age again with the age. Oh my God. Oh God. It's all right. It's all right. But I'm starting to realize that there's this whole generation of comics now that have been doing it,

you know, 11 to 15 years that, you know, I kind of missed in some ways. And back when I started this show in 2009, I was talking to peers of mine or people a little younger than me who had been doing it about that much time. So we're coming full circle. Only now I'm sort of a elder statesman of sorts, but there's definitely,

here's the thing about what's going on. Let's, I don't know, let's backload it somehow. When you see comedy that is truly unique and truly original in its tone, in its presentation, in the person who's doing it. Comedy that really takes chances, whether they're absurd or intellectually provocative. Look, I know my time is sort of leveled off.

I know that the primary subject of my ramblings is my brain and my experience, but I've always been slightly envious and in awe of people that can just sort of use their imagination in ways that are completely unique and original and it still happens out there. And the reason that they're not hugely popular in general in the culture we live in is because they don't toe

the party line creatively, that they don't live that life. They are true artists in every sense of the word. They aren't just people, you know, kind of regurgitating talking points from either side, usually the wrong side, you know, to sort of justify their victimness or their challenge in life around, you know, being canceled or saying something, you know, over the line. They're people that sort of exist in a different ether. Cause I just recently started chatting with Sarah Sherman, who I'd like to have on the show eventually she's on SNL.

She's the profoundly odd and goofy genius on SNL, but she is out there touring if you want to go try to figure out her, what her, her website. Uh, I can, if I say it, you won't even, it's too much to just go look up go try to figure out her website. If I say it, it's too much to, just go look up Sarah Sherman and see if she's coming to your area, because I would guarantee that you will have a bizarre and exciting experience with her comedy. I just talked to Blair Socky,

I don't know when we're gonna put that up, but she's another one that's sort of like, wow, there's some comic voices out there that aren't going to get the attention they deserve because there's this bulldozing effect of what becomes algorithmically, culturally, resonant. And a lot of it is just, you know, all the same garbage from the same point of view. And what's interesting about art of any kind is that it will come from a totally unique point of view because of the artists themselves and you won't know what to do with it. And I think that's one of the problems with most people.

If it happens outside the box they live in and they don't know what to do with it they're just sort of like, well that's fucking weird yeah, thank god, bring on the weirdness we need more weirdness what have I seen lately that might be of help oh, Furiosa, how come no one's talking about that movie? that movie is spectacular, it's one of those movies where you're like, Oh my God, how did they even fucking do that?

And what a great story. But I don't know, I guess because the box office wasn't what they expected, it just sort of disappears into the dustbin of film history and will arrive on a stream or somewhere, usually guided by an algorithmic force that is making the most money, that dictates your desires and wants

one of the three but uh i think that guy is a fucking genius that guy george miller one of the few uh one of the yeah there's a well there's a lot of cinematic geniuses but on that scale, holy shit. Right? Jesus Christ, what a movie. Also, one other thing about jokes. About jokes. Quit reacting to jokes like their statements. Comics do a thing. If you don't think it's funny, fine, it might not be your thing, but don't act like they're just, they're points of argument. You know, I put stuff out there in the world, you know, that are clearly jokes and people are like, why I don't, uh, I don't agree with that. I'm like, who cares?

Who cares? It's a joke. God just let the joke be a joke for Christ's sake. And then just process it like a joke. And that, and that reaction is like, I didn't find that funny or that was hilarious. Wow. I never thought of it that way. Not like, I'd like to disagree with your joke.

All right, it's not a Ted talk, it's a joke. Oh my God, I'm gonna need someplace to work out up there in Vancouver. I can't get rusty, I can't get rusty. And then some days I'm like, I don't wanna do anything. You know how it is. Look, summertime means summer plans, people. I can't get rusty. And then some days I'm like, I don't want to do anything. You know how it is. Look.

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monitoring at simply safe.com slash WTF. That's simply safe.com slash WTF. That's simply safe.com slash WTF. There's no safe like simply safe. I was very excited to talk to Susie Espin. She's very funny. She's a character and you know, it was a long time coming really for both Susie and Larry. All the seasons of Curb are streaming on Mac. Susie also has a new podcast with Jeff Garland called The History of Curb Your Enthusiasm,

which is available on all podcast platforms. And this is me talking to Susie Essman. Everyone knows therapy is great for solving problems, but getting therapy has its own problems too. Like finding the right therapist, fitting into their schedule, and of course, the cost. Well, BetterHelp can solve those problems. It's totally online and built around your schedule. It's surprisingly affordable too. Connect with a credential therapist by phone, video, or online chat, all from the comfort of your home. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more and save 10% on your first month.

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your first month free. That's Oxxio.ca promo code WTFmarc. Larry do this? No, he's gonna. We scheduled it. I'm surprised. People who don't know him don't get how easy and lovely he is. He hates when I talk about how great he is. Really?

I know I saw that clip. The clip of everybody saying how moved they were at the end of the show. Yeah, well I just wanted to... And he slowly walking away. Yeah, I just wanted... Oh that one. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He just walked away on that day.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think most people just have a sense of him from the show. So you assume that's some version of him. By the way, all of, I mean, people think I'm her. Yeah, which is, is that good or bad? Well, you know, I'm not, I mean, I'm just not. Yeah, well who could be that?

Look, I'm dressed like a normal human being. Right, but who could be that? Look, I'm dressed like a normal human being. Right, but who could be that? I mean, they're- It's a character. Right, but, and it's very specific. The thing I've always liked about the show, even when I've gone in and out of some seasons, like I watched the last two all the way through

in the first five, I don't know how many I've watched all the way through, but I, you know, as a Jew in a world where Jews are being more focused on in a negative way, I fucking love how Jew-y it is. Yeah. Because it's so familiar to me. Unapologetically. Yeah.

And it's interesting. I was thinking about this the other day because I was reading something about just that and how Seinfeld went away from, they made Jason and Jerry Stiller Italian, and they made Elaine, you never knew what she was, but Curb embraced its Jewishness. And I was thinking that I think it's not by chance that the two shows that I've been on and known for, which is Curb and Broad City, have both been unapologetically Jewish.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that everything was, all the stuff we grew up with, I mean, Seinfeld, the entire rhythm of the show is Jewish. Well, it's Larry. Right, I know, and most of television before, you know, maybe 10 years ago was Jewish. Well, the stuff that we grew up with certainly was. Yeah, even if they weren't Jews,

they were written by Jews. Mary Tyler Moore. Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, whatever it was, yeah. It was all kind of the Jewish timing, but I just like, for better or for worse, like Tracy Ullman, who's not Jewish, right? No, she's not. Oh my God. What about that character she created?

Well, Tracy has a bit of brilliance in her. I mean, Tracy, as a mimic, she just becomes something. We would be on set and you just say, you throw out a name to her, you say Greer Garson, and she just does Greer Garson. You say, Julie Andrews, she just all of a sudden, she's quite facile and amazing like that. But to make out a Jewish woman that is annoying in every way, a Jewish woman could be annoying was sort of a masterpiece.

I couldn't fucking believe it. She's great. I love her. And she's a delight to work with. Really? So when you're on the street, people like, they think you're Suzy from the show? They want me to tell them to go fuck themselves. This is what my life has become.

It's not the worst thing in the world, you know? But people, because you know, I live in New York. I'm on the street all the time and people walk up to me and beg me to curse at them. It's like that's, and I'm like, okay, that's my life. My life, my life has become telling people to go fuck themselves. They could be worse. You do it well. I do it well.

I'm good at it. Yeah. And it seems to come from, I mean, I have to assume that being able to do that character for so long It's got to be great. It's got to be fun. Oh, it's so much fun What you know what just working on the show is so much fun because we basically we laugh all day long Do you oh we laugh all day long? Well, how long did it take to because I'm about to do a TV show and and on some level what? It's an Apple show.

It's me and Owen Wilson and a couple, a few other people and sort of this kind of, he plays a kind of down and out pro golfer who screwed up his life for different reasons, it got screwed up. And I'm his old caddy and we're best friends. That's fun. Yeah, and it's more about like, his character finds this teenager who's a prodigy

on a driving range who wants to make him a pro. So it becomes this sort of surrogate family of me and Owen the kid, the kid's mother and some other kid doing amateur golf tournaments and all this stuff that ensues. I like that. I watch golf all the time. You do?

My husband's a golfer. Do you play? No, but I watch it. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, I'll go to the driving No, but I watch it. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, I'll go to the driving range, but the playing on the course, it's too boring to me. Takes a long time, and you gotta be good to enjoy it.

Yeah, my husband's good. I can't imagine not being good and going out with some guys and you're the one that's holding everything up forever. I've never got, no. Do you play? I don't, I barely know anything about it. I've had to kind of get up to speed, and watch some docs.

Yeah. And then watch a bit of the master's. Well, there's that one on now. There's the- On Netflix, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I really enjoy watching golf. Yeah?

Yeah, there's something about it. I just, and it's so frustrating. It's the most frustrating game you could imagine. And it's a very simple game to watch in a lot of ways, because it's just, there's one- You can do other things. Yeah, and also it's like, that guy's gotta get it into that hole and that how long is it gonna take? That's it That's the whole game. I'm not a big sports guy

So I don't know is what your husband goes out there and he what with a bunch of guys and does the thing Yeah, I think that's half of it or 90% of it and I love it. It's like he'll say to me Honey, do you mind if I play golf today? Go, go, enjoy yourself. Do me a favor. I have the house to myself all day, I'm in heaven. Where do you live? I don't wanna say on the air. But you're on the East Coast.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We live about, we have an apartment on the Upper West Side and we live about 30 minutes outside of the city. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, so that's the perfect thing. And you still love New York? Yeah. Yeah? I do, I do. You can never live anywhere else? It's the perfect thing. And you still love New York? Yeah. Yeah? I do.

I do, yeah. You can never live anywhere else? It's home. Yeah. You know, I grew up there. It's home. Oh, what I was going to ask you, though, was how long did it take to shoot an episode?

Wait, two days? Three days? Oh, no, seven. For one episode? Yeah. Well, we had a very luxurious schedule. Yeah. You know, Larry's in another reality.

So yeah, no no seven days an episode Really? Yeah, so you guys it was a reasonable seven was yes a reasonable shoot day. You got everyone We had some long day, right but generally about a 12-hour day And it was all just you would you'd have a story and that was it an outline Yeah, but as you see, you know, I mean, Larry's all story. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. So, you know, the outline is very specific. It's not just some willy nilly improv.

Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know exactly what has to happen. But because there's nothing written, you're constantly surprising each other and that's why we laugh all the time. Yeah, I bet, yeah, yeah. You know? The challenge is to get a take without laughing. Well, Larry's the worst. He breaks up all the time. Yeah, I bet. Yeah, yeah. The challenge is to get a take without laughing.

Well, Larry's the worst. He breaks up all the time. He does. Yeah, especially with me, because he loves to be yelled at. You know, I don't know who I represent to him. I've never wanted to go there, but it must be like some third grade teacher

or somebody who like berated him and yelled at him or something, because there's something about it that the minute I yell at him, he just gets the giggles. Really? Yeah. You know, because like the one thing I said to him when we did that live thing, you know, and I knew the parameters and I wanted him to have fun and you know, the audience was

there to see him. They didn't care about me, you know. The one thing I said, I said, was there anything funny in your childhood? And he would have had this moment like, what? What did he think? Well, he says that he didn't even know he was funny as a kid. Well, but then I said, what was,

cause I could tell he was a little uncomfortable. I said, so what was it? Just a lot of yelling? He goes, yes, yes, a lot of yelling. He has a lot of yelling, a lot of yelling. It must have been there, the yelling. Perhaps, yeah. You know, I'm gonna find out.

I've got, I wonder, he'll listen to this and he'll cancel. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was very surprised. I had a nice time with him and I didn't know what to expect because I'd run into him once at an airport. And it was funny, he was funny because we had the same experiences when I was on Air America.

And we were on the same plane going back to LA from New York or something. And we talked for a minute, waiting in line and he goes on the first, and then I go on, and I'm sitting in coach, and there was this moment, there's a moment when you're with him that you can't help but feel like you're in an episode. Because your brain just frames every sort of minor encounter.

But he's much more sensitive than the character. Oh, totally. He's a sweet guy. He's much more sensitive to how he's making other people feel. Yeah. But you know, the thing, when you're working with him, he's in his head a lot because he's thinking about comedy. I mean, that's where he is. So sometimes I'll be talking to him, I'll have whole conversations, and then I'll just

look at him and say, you didn't hear one word I just said. So to get along well with him in a work environment, you can't be overly sensitive or needy. Right, right. Because he's not gonna give you that. Yeah. But you know, once you know that, you're fine. Were there ever points like on the show where you were surprised at like how far

he was going with something? No. No? This is a very interesting thing that he's sort of, because of I think of the age and the appeal of the show, that he's never really gotten much shit for pushing the envelope. And he really, it's so politically incorrect.

Totally, it's the whole thing. And gets no shit at all. One time. Yeah. One time, and sometimes we'll do an episode, Palestinian chicken will be like, oh, the Jews are gonna be on me about that. But no, the only time there was ever controversy,

and I remember, because I was doing press at the time, and it was when he was taking something for his prostate or whatever, and he's peeing. Oh, the Jesus. And the splashes onto Jesus. That's the only time that there was ever any kind of blowback. And that's like nothing. It was nothing. And then they were all saying, he's peeing on Jesus. He was not peeing on Jesus. It's an accident.

It splashed onto Jesus. Big difference. But I think the reason is, even with all the characters, is the balance of being politically incorrect or inappropriate is it was all character-based. That's right. And he turns himself in. He's not saying, this guy is a great person. He knows he's an asshole. Exactly. He's saying, this guy's a fucking jerk. Exactly. So it's allowable. It's almost... It's not the same kind of thing, but it's an Archie Bunker-esque

thing. Yes. I think that's true. There's a charm to it if you're Jewish and Jew sensitive. Right. I really wonder how charming he is to non-Jews in a broad sense. Well, I will say just anecdotally, my life, tremendously. What?

Oh, non-Jews? I just know who comes up my life, tremendously. What? Oh, do I not introduce? I just know who comes up to me, the response that I get. And what's really interesting to me, because on the show, and we started, I mean, I started doing that show, I was what, 46 or something, or 45, it was 24 years ago. In 2000, I was 45. So we were old starting out, and he's seven, eight years older than me. And so was Lewis, he and Lewis are the same age. And we're just old Jews on that show.

We haven't aged out, we've just aged in. And the people that come up to me the most on the street, boys in their 20s. And not just Jews, all kinds of, every ethnicity. I just wanted you to say you fat fuck. But that's who loves the show. They watch it in college, in the dorms, they love the show. Oh, that's amazing.

Yeah, I had no idea, it's hard to tell. None of us are young. I mean, JB's 10 years younger than me. He's still fucking old. Yeah, yeah, I think he, I think Larry just loves that guy. He gets a real kick out of JB. Yeah, he does. Because you don't know what the fuck he's gonna say.

Well, I mean, he's bizarre, what comes out of his mouth. He's always been bizarre. It's interesting because we actually did a podcast together yesterday and JB was saying that what he brought in is he brought a completely, like, okay, my world, Larry knows my world. Jay Bre brought in a world that Larry knows nothing about.

Yes. Yes, but it seemed like after the season. And he educated him. Yeah, totally, and he does it on the show, but it seems like after the season with the blacks that Larry just sort of like, I gotta have this guy. Oh, he's so funny, and he's a delight as well. Oh yeah, sweet guy, sweet guy.

Yeah, really sweet. But how Jewish did you grow up? Not very, I was raised by like lefty commies, you know? Yeah, oh, the old school Jewish commies? Yeah, I was not, but none of that. I never- Really? Not belonged to a temple, but you know- Where were you, where'd you grow up?

Mount Vernon, New York, J.B. Smoove also grew up in Mount Vernon, New York. So that's up north of Manhattan a bit. It's north of the Bronx. It's right, it borders the Bronx. Yeah. So it's not Scarsdale, you know? Yeah. It's like very middle class.

It's still New York City-ish. It's New York City-ish. Yeah. And my mother grew up in Manhattan, so we were, and I had relatives, so we were in Manhattan a lot. And like, what did your dad do? He was a doctor. Oh, mine too.

Oh, really? Well, mine. Yeah, orthopedic. Oh, that was a good one. Mine was an oncologist. Why is that? Oh, that sad one? Yeah.

It's just a lot of figuring out how to tell people that don't have lungs. Yeah, orthopedists, you're not dealing with death and dying. No, just hammers and saws. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But all the doctors are a little megalomaniacal somehow. They're completely, they have a God syndrome

and they're narcissists. It is true, right? Well, I saw that when I was a teenager in high school. I used to go to, I work in his office in the summers. And I saw the patients, especially these old Jewish ladies, they would come up to me, they would say, I would wash your father's feet.

You know, they revered him, and then he would come home and we'd be like, daddy, Elliot hit me, and he didn't want it nothing to, he just ignored us. He was not involved with us at all. Isn't that weird? My father was like that too, my dad's got, he's alive and he's got dementia now. Oh, sorry, that's hard.

It's just starting, so it's kind of endearing. You know, like what happens is the, he was a little depressive too, but all of a sudden they're not depressed. They're not really that narcissistic anymore. There's a vulnerability to it here at the beginning where, you know, he can still remember things, but he's sort of sweet and you're like... It happens both. That happened to my father-in-law, who was like a son of a bitch. Yeah. And I loved him, but he was like a nasty guy. And then when he got dementia, he was,

I love you all the time. And it could go either way. Sometimes they get really angry and nasty, and sometimes they become lovers. Yeah, I think my father's doing both things. He's not bipolar anymore, but he switches in between asshole and sweetheart with the dementia.

But it's very interesting when, they're not together, but I told my mother at the beginning when he started to have dementia, and she says, how can you tell? Because they're so detached. My whole life, at dinner, the doctor, he's off in some other place. They're just detached. He was not interested. I don't even think he knew our names till we were old enough to have a real conversation. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

This is funny because my father, before he got sick, we were in Phoenix because my brother's kid was getting bar mitzvahed. And I go to the hotel to get my dad and he goes, what are we doing? I go, well, I guess we're going to go eat with the family, the kid, you know, it's not, you know, it was the day before or something. He, you know, don't you want to hang out with your grandkids? He goes, you know, some people get something out of that. I don't get anything. Really? They bored him. They bored him. Yeah, but we must have too.

Well, absolutely we did. And how did that affect you? Do you process it? Well, I mean, both my mother was a serious depressive. I mean a serious depressive. So diagnosed or you just think? I mean, no, she was like my sister, my sister died last year, but my older sister thought she had multiple personality disorders. So here's where I'm at now, I'll be 69 in a few weeks, is that all of that shit that I grew up with, which was bad at the time,

it made me who I am in the sense, like for example with my mother, because you never knew who she was gonna be. I had to become really observant. Yeah. And really- Adaptive, like codependent. But not even codependent, just like, okay, figure out who she is, and so I knew how to behave,

not to create. But when I was, I don't do standup anymore, she is and so I knew you know how to behave right not to create but that get when I was when I don't do stand-up anymore when I used to do stand-up it made me really sensitive to an audience right sample right like I was able to just pick up on an audience and know where to go and what to give them and you know so all of those things made me better at what I do in the long run and there's no pain anymore so that's what you focus on. The pain's over.

Yeah. I mean there was a lot of pain but it's gone, you know? It's weird how that happens, like you have to make a choice, like why don't I focus on the good things that I got from them? Yeah, you know, I mean they did a lot of good things but the fact that she was such a depressive made me funny. I was always trying to cheer her up. Me too, that's it.

And the fact that my father was so distant, I think I was always trying to get his attention. And I think it made me into a performer. Right. Well, that's interesting because like a lot of people think like, like some people just get into it for the love. And I've never been that kind of comedian. Me neither. I'm like, I defy you to like me. Let's see how this goes. But some people just are like, they have singers and stuff, they're out there. They love it.

I don't even know what to do with love. I don't know what to do with it. It's awkward. I'm so happy not doing it anymore. Really? Oh God, it was just too painful. Really? Yeah. Like how long has it been? Maybe like five, six years.

Do you know what your last show was? I don't even remember. It was not a good one though. Yeah. It was not a good one. You know, it's so interesting how you remember the bad ones and you don't remember the good ones. Yeah.

And there were so many more good ones than bad ones. But the weird thing about the good ones, even if it's like it's on TV or something, you're going to focus on that one part you didn't do right. That's right. You know, it's so close. It was just too difficult for me. I suffered from so close. It was just too difficult for me. I suffered from stage fright. It was just too hard for me.

For all those years? Yeah. From the beginning, there was never a point where you were like, I'm good. I'm not afraid. No, I knew that I was good. But you were still afraid. I was still afraid.

I was afraid that the Muse was not gonna be there that time, that, you know like my husband would say to me, we'd be on our way to, I don't know, Carolines or something. And he, and I'd be like all a wreck. And whenever I was a wreck, I told him everything wrong about himself. You know, that was my warmup.

And he would say, but you are, you never, you always kill. And I'm like, this time I'm not going to, okay? And I would get like really, really fucking angry at him. And then it just stopped, it just stopped being creatively interesting to me. I just lost it. I just stopped being- Well, I mean, you used to do a lot of crowd work too, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was the thing. So you had to be in it.

I had to be in it and it stopped interesting me. So I just don't want to do it anymore because if it doesn't interest you and you're just going through the motions, it's a horrible feeling. But do. Because if it doesn't interest you and you're just going through the motions, it's a horrible feeling. But do you think if you hadn't, cause you know when you do a real thing with a collaborative thing like Curb for so long, and you know that's always surprising,

and there's other people involved and everything else, I think it's easier to put stand up in perspective. But do you ever have that thing where you think you've failed yourself by not doing stand-up? No, I feel as though I had a goal to, look, when I started doing it, I don't know if you felt this way, I had no idea what I was doing.

I just knew I wanted to do it. I just had no, but you can only do it in front of an audience. You can't do it in front of the mirror in the bathroom. You can't do it in a classroom. You have to do it in front of strangers audience. You can't do it in front of the mirror in the bathroom. You can't do it in a class. You have to do it in front of strangers. It's the only way to get good. And it's frightening.

You're up there saying. I don't know how I did it. I mean, in the beginning when we had no skill, I mean, then you develop a skill. I know, but I have no idea where I got whatever I had. Me neither. The balls. Yeah, it's like, who was that guy?

I know. The sort of singularity of focus. But I think if I knew how hard it was, I might not have done it. But how did we not know that? I mean, you know, you got, how did you? Because we were young and foolish. But we knew.

You go up there and fail and you know. Yeah. Like, in some part of you is like, I gotta do that again. How much do I not like myself? It's insane. But I wanted to get really good and I got really good. But like, so when you're growing up,

well, you got an older sister and you had a younger sister? And an older brother, yeah. Oh, so there's a lot of you. There's four of us, yeah. Well, that's good. At least you had each other, huh? Yeah, my younger sister was 10 years younger than me and so she was like another family.

Yeah. Now I'm close with her. Same parents? Yeah. Oh yeah. But that's interesting because I just had my little brother who was, you know, he's all right. But, you know, we, at least he had a buffer

with the other kids, right? Yeah. Yeah, but when they hold a sister and brother, we're kind of, they were crazy. They were crazy. So, but the reason why that helped me, birth order's really important. Why that helped me is because they were so focused on them because there was so much

disturbance going on. I just left. And nobody ever knew where I was and I just was gone. I was at my friend Lisa's house or wherever. And it was like I brought myself up. So it was better not to have their attention. It's benign neglect is what it was. I had that, but because of that,

because they were so selfish. But because of that, my relationship, like I would never go to my parents for anything. Oh, were you kidding? They were the last people you would go to. But now it's weird because you hear, like I know other people who I guess are more normal or whatever who had parents that were selfless enough to at least be decent parents.

They get very involved with their aging parents. I'm like, I don't want anything to do with it. I used to have a bit in my act where I would talk about that I just wanted my parents to drown in a boating accident. And it wasn't malice. It was just disappear. Yeah, yeah. I'm done with you.

Yeah, exactly. And now they're dead. And it's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very, it's odd because I don't feel guilty about it, because I know what it is. Like, you know, when you have selfish parents, they're just people you grew up with that had problems.

They're not like, you know, like, what am I going to do, mom? I'm like, I would never fucking ask my parents anything. No, nothing. But that's the problem with a doctor, though. When you don't feel well, then all of a sudden. No, the medical stuff I would ask my father. Of course. Yeah, that stuff.

That's the only way you could connect with him. And I was sick a lot as a kid, which I think was just that. Me too. Was just like, you know, that's how I got attention. I wasn't sick, but I was a hypochondriac. I always thought I was dying. Yeah.

And I think that was just a way to get him involved. Exactly, exactly. Because I remember when I was 17, and I had had a big fight with him too. I frequently had fights with him, because I would say to him, you're just a fucking narcissist, you know? But when I was 17, we had a big fight,

and then I got really, really sick. I had like swollen glands, like it was like tennis balls were in my neck and he got, gave me the blood test when he was in my room constantly and I was like, okay, something's really wrong because he never pays attention to me. Yeah. He thought I had Hodgkin's disease.

Oh my God. And then the blood test came back and they found out I had mono. He was gone. I never saw him again. I had 104 fever. I was sick. Never saw him. When he thought I was deathly ill, like I had mono, he was gone. I never saw him again. I had 104 fever, I was sick. Never saw him. When he thought I was deathly ill, like I had cancer,

he was there. But the minute he found out I wasn't, gone. And the other thing that's good about growing up with doctors is if you ever have something that's not in their purview, they're like, I'll just call Fred. Oh yeah, I'll call Freddie. Yeah, just go to his office, he knows you're coming.

Exactly, that was good. And I didn't know anything about health insurance or any of that crap. Never. No. It was just like a friend. Where'd you grow up? Albuquerque.

Oh really? Yeah, but they're from Jersey. You know, the whole cruise, they're all Jersey. So I'm like. But his practice was in Albuquerque. Yeah, he's from Jersey, my mother's from Jersey, then he was in the service for a couple years in the Air Force in Alaska. And then like he set up his practice in Albuquerque

because it was a growing city. What was it like to grow up there? Well, there was like, you know, a Jewish community and it was okay. You know, it was a, it had a sort of thriving middle-class-ish, and now it's a little different, but he's still there with his wife. Not your mother. Pete Slauson No, the born-again Christian Latino woman who has, thank God, decided that he's her cross the bear.

Danielle Pletka And she'll take care of him. And you don't have to worry about it. Pete Slauson Yeah, and I thank Jesus every day for her. Danielle Pletka And she's younger, I bet. Pete Slauson Yeah, about 15 years. Danielle Pletka Yeah, perfect. Pete Slauson Yeah, well, I mean, I feel bad because, like, you know, I'm like, look, I have money, you want to put them somewhere, let's do it. And she's like, yeah, I, she doesn't want to do it.

You'll have to, but not yet. If you don't have to do it yet, then don't. Yeah, and because of that two years in the Air Force, he's got a VA for life. Oh, really? Yeah. So that's what they use, you know, it's pretty good. I don't know what I'm going to do with them. The whole thing, I think it's sad, but it's, you know, because you got to get involved. The problem with dementia, does he have dementia or Alzheimer's or you don't know what I'm gonna do with him. The whole thing, I think it's sad, but it's, you know, cause you gotta get involved.

The problem with dementia, does he have dementia or Alzheimer's, or you don't know? It's not really clear to me, but it's going away. The problem with it is that frequently you're completely healthy. Yes.

Yeah, the narcissist lasts forever. Yeah, and so you just limp along, you don't die even though you're not present mentally. Well, that's sort of what's happening. He's pretty fucking healthy. But when you say your folks were kind of progressives, or there was politics in the house? Yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah, active? Yeah, a lot of, you know, my mother was never fully able to turn Stalin in. Really? Yeah. That was her guy? Well, I mean, you know, they were, I had family in the Soviet Union and all of that.

Who I went to visit when I was seven. When I was seven? Yeah, they took us to Moscow to visit my aunt, my great aunt, my mother's aunt. It was kind of interesting. Do you remember it? I remember every detail of it. What, like what?

She lived in a tiny little apartment with another woman and she had a pet turtle and the kids were all outside of the playground playing soccer and I never saw soccer. I didn't grow up with soccer. And the way that I made friends with them is my mother gave me a pack of juicy fruit. They had no gum. They had no gum. They had no gum. So I gave out sticks of gum.

They had no gum. A juicy fruit, Wrigley spearmint and juicy fruit. Did they even know what to do with it? Yeah, they knew what it was. And then it's like I, that's, you know, I didn't speak the language, but I made friends. With the gum. My mother used to say, Suzy makes friends wherever she goes as a negative. She said it like it was a bad thing.

It's gonna get her in trouble. Because I had my dad's, my great aunt, my dad's aunt was like American kind of commies. They lived over in Fort Lee, New Jersey. He was a blood doctor, but they were all part of that cultural world of the Jewish Marxists, which doesn't really exist anymore. No, it was a whole post-war thing and well, for them pre-war probably, but different generation. But it's also about like labor unions, progressive politics. They were all children of immigrants too.

That's right. My parents were. Were yours? Not my parents, but my grandparents. Yeah. Well, you're younger than me. Well, yeah, my parents were a little bit. I'm 60.

My parents were children of immigrants, but my mothers, they all came pretty young, like before the war. Right. Yeah, they were all pretty American, but they were Poland and, you know, mostly Russia. Right, Eastern European. Right. Yeah, Ashkenazi. We're probably related, Marc.

I know. Did you ever do Finding Your Roots? No, I would like to do Finding My Roots. You should. Henry Louis Gates, calling Henry Louis Gates. I would like to. He put me on a whole Jew show. It was like me, Terry Gross, and I think Jeff Goldblum or somebody.

Oh, really? And he said they were able to track my Ashkenazi roots in Paleosettlement in Russia, further back than they'd ever gotten with another Jew. Really? To where? To a tailor. The thing when you spit in the thing, like ancestry, I think that only goes back 200 years.

Well, that's not- Because I did do that. Yeah, I was hoping for a little Viking, but I got 99.5% Ashkenazi. I only got 84%. Really? And then I got 10% like Italian or Greek. Wow. But, you know, the Jews, they went all over.

Well, I was hoping that some at some point, like when the... And Turkish, I got 4% Turkish. Really? But that makes sense. Sure. Yeah, I mean, but you. Really? But that makes sense. Sure. Yeah, I mean, but you don't know who or where. No. I was just hoping that during one of the Russian incursions

into, you know, wherever, into that region that maybe I got a little something, but no, it's all Jew. For 200 years. Before that, you don't know. I don't know, but the Gates, what they do is, I think they've got a whole team, they go and do research. They find records. Larry did it. He said it Gates, what they do is, I think they've got a whole team, they go and do research. They find records.

Larry did it. He said it's amazing what they find. Yeah. Like about my great, great grandfather, he was in the South. I had relatives- So was Larry's in Alabama, and they were slave owners. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Yeah, I didn't get that. Like, I think mine were a little later. They had gone down there during the Reconstruction, where they were trying to get as many white people of any kind down there. Right, so they took Jews. Yeah, so like he went down there, he owned a grocery store and he was bipolar. I was sort of able to track my dad's depressive personality through this guy, through his

mother's grandfather. It's kind of interesting. You think it's genetic? What that? Yeah. I think some part of it is, and the part of it that isn't is growing up with one of them, but I think there is a genetic component to real bipolar. Yeah.

Yeah, because it doesn't make sense. You know, miserable is miserable, but like, you know, all of a sudden, everything's the same as it was yesterday and you wake up in, you know, in a fucking darkness. Yeah, well. You know what I mean? Why, do you don't think your mom's was genetic?

I don't know. You don't I mean? Why, do you don't think your mom's was genetic? I don't know. You don't have it? Well, no, I had a clinical depression in my 20s, but that's when I started doing standup. That's what saved my life. That's just Jewish. No, it was bad. Really?

Yeah, and it was pre, there was no SSRIs at the time. So I didn't have any meds, because the only meds were like really lithium and really heavy. Right, yeah. So, but it was pretty dark, huh? It was pretty dark, yeah. It was really dark.

I used to have this concept about what happened to all the Jewish comics, because it's not Jewish anymore. It used to be almost all Jewish and black and a couple of Latinos, but I thought that that antidepressants killed Jewish comics. It could be, but the, I mean,

I don't think this is not a new theory. Yeah. The reason of, you know, the Jews and blacks and all these great comics is that that's the outsider. Right. And it's them integrating themselves and building community. And the, you know, our forebearing comedians. Yes. The Jack Benneys and all of them, they were all, they were all, they had an immigrant

experience. So they were really the outsider looking in. Yeah. And even the Borscht Belt guys, all of those guys. And there's so few of that tradition left. Like for me, the one that always strikes me, there's two, that whether they like it or not, or the legacy, it's Jeff Ross and Natel. They're like, they are fundamentally- Because they're both jokers. That's right. They're joke writers. Yeah. But in a very Jewish way. Right.

I think Jeff Ross is like, you know, cause he takes on himself to take care of all these old Jews too. He's always friends with them. Yeah, I know. Like I think he like, he's some sort of weird spirit. Friars Club is no more. I know.

Did you go a lot? Well, you don't know. Yeah, I didn't either. It was on the East side. I lived on the West side. Alon Gold kept trying to, when they were trying to recruit younger comics on the West side. Alon Gold kept trying to, when they were trying to recruit younger comics.

Is he Jewish, Alon Gold? Yeah, he is the Jew. I think him and Modi tour together as just the Jews. They're the ones really carrying the flag. Mark Schiff too. Oh, Mark Schiff. Remember those guys that wouldn't work on Saturdays? Who was the other guy? Morris. Was his name Jack Morris? No. Oh, like Richie Morris.

Yeah, Richard Morris. Richie Morris and Mark Weiner. Oh, that's right. Mark with the puppets. And Stu Trivax. Oh, and Trivax, right. They wouldn't work on Friday night. Yeah, yeah. I think that hampered their career.

I do too because I think some of Markiener's puppets wanted to work. Of course. He would let the puppets go, but he wouldn't go. When did you start? Did you go to college? Yeah, I went to college. I went to SUNY Purchase. I started when I was 28.

I started late. Huh. What were you doing before that? I was just bad, like depression and waitressing and drug dealing and lost. In New York? Yeah, in lost and. In New York? Yeah, in New York. In the city? Yeah, I love the city.

With no plan? No plan, I was taking acting classes which bored the crap out of me. You know, you get a scene partner and you go to their walk up on West 44th Street, it's some gay guy you gotta do a sex scene with and they make you tea and you have to have that little talk ahead, you know that stuff.

And I was just totally bored. That was very specific. Yeah, I was like at HP Studios and I was totally bored with that. Were there any movie stars in there that became people? Do you remember? Not that I could think of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, when I was at Purchase, the only people that I remember, I mean, there's a lot of people that came out of Purchase, but they were after me, Edie Falco and Stanley Tudj, but they were younger than me. In my class, my group was, J.O. Sanders has done really well. He's a really great character actor, and I can't really think of anybody else.

So you studied theater at Purchase? No, I didn't study theater. I was too intimidated and too scared. What did you study? I studied urban studies, which makes sense because I've always lived in a city. What does that even mean? Like what are the classes in a- Well, you know what? It was really public,

it was more poli-sci. It's really what it was. Right, right. I thought I was going to be a political journalist, is what I thought. What did your mom do? My mom was a Russian teacher at Sarah Lawrence College. That's not, that's something. She's a professor? Yeah. Well, she was like an adjunct.

Okay. Was that the right word? Adjunct? Yeah, I think so. So did you speak Russian? She was brought up speaking Russian. Did you speak it? No, no, she never taught it to us. Yiddish in their house?

My grandmother spoke Yiddish. Right. And I like to sprinkle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, we all have a little sprinkle. Yiddish is the best. Yeah, my grandparents used to do it and they didn't want us to know what they were saying. Well, my mother used to talk to her sister and stuff

and they'd be speaking Russian, but then it would be, Susie, like they always knew they were talking about you. And somehow I always knew what they were saying, even though I didn't understand the language at all. Because you knew how you were in trouble. Yeah, whatever. Probably, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was always in trouble with them. So you're like, you're depressed in your waitressing and you're doing acting classes. And so how does, like what? Because the way that depressed in your waitressing and you're doing acting classes. And so how does like what? Because the way that I made my waitressing bearable to myself was I would go back into the kitchen and imitate all the customers. And then my friends that were, that I worked with

kept on telling me to go up on stage. And I didn't know what stand up, I had never been in a comedy club. I didn't know what stand up was. Did you like comics? I loved comedy. Yeah. You know, but growing up watching Ed Sullivan, they were telling jokes.

That didn't connect to me in any way. You know, Alan King and Joan Rivers. I would watch them. That was the, I related more to like Carol Burnett. Yeah. You know, the character thing. Yeah. And they always looked like they were having so much fun.

They were. Yeah, so I wanted to do something like that, the character thing. Yeah. And they always looked like they were having so much fun. They were. Yeah, so I wanted to do something like that, but nobody was hiring me. I would go to auditions every now. I would get backstage, remember backstage? Yes. I would get backstage. For the casting calls?

The casting calls, and nobody wanted me. And then I had a bad boyfriend, and I was just in a very bad place. Yeah. You know, suicidal and bad. And one day friends forced me to get up on stage and I went up at this place on Carmine Street called Mostly Magic, I don't know if you remember that place.

I don't remember that one. On Tuesday nights, they had a open night. Oh wait, I kinda do remember it. And I went up and, and there were two guys there, Burt Levitt and Paul Herzick, and they came over to me afterwards, they said, we're opening up a comedy club, we thought you were really funny.

Yeah. Can we have your number? And I gave them my number, and then I never went back on stage, and they came over to me afterwards, they said, we're opening up a comedy club, we thought you were really funny. Can we have your number? And I gave them my number, and then I never went back on stage, I was too scared, and then about three or four months later, they called me,

and they were opening up Comedy U. Did you ever work there? Yeah, I remember it. Yeah, it was on University and 13th Street, and they opened up Comedy U. Grand, down on Grand Street. That's probably the one that you did. I remember that one, yeah.

And they just gave me spots. They said, can you come in and do 10 minutes? And like an idiot, I'm like, oh yeah, I could do 10 minutes. It's like 10 minutes. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's like two hours. I know, yeah. But I didn't know what I didn't know. So this was like the 80s already, right?

1983. Right, okay. And I went down and they just, they were so supportive and loving to me. They just kept on giving me spots. And they had, every Thursday night, they had women comedians, and that's where I met Joy, and you know, she like took me under, she was so much older than me, and you know, she was, she started at 40.

Yeah. Doing standup. Where, in the late 70s? No, she started when I started. Oh really? Yeah. Huh, cause right, cause she already brought up kids, I knew her daughter, I think. Yeah, Eve, yeah. So, you right, cause she already brought up kids, I knew her daughter I think.

Yeah, Eve, yeah. So, you know, and then after a few months, I was like, oh wow, this is what I was born to do. I realized that, and it just saved my life. And then, and then I became a comic, and then I went to the uptown clubs, and nobody would pass me, well, Lucian passed me. Cause that's what I remember, like he never passed me,

but that was not nothing to be passed there. Yeah, he passed me, but they wouldn't pass me a catch, and catch is where you have to be. Oh my God. But that was a big thing to be passed at one of those clubs. Totally. Big thing. When I got there in 80, like I guess I went down there in 80, the first time I went there was 89, I guess,

but I'd been doing comedy since 88 in Boston. And like, I couldn't get in anywhere, except for Silver's place, which is already like this. She was not into me. But it was so sad, that place at that point. By the late 80s, that original improv, it was just Bob Shaw and Marty, what's his name? Oh, yeah.

Sad Marty. Yeah, yeah. I could picture him, high-waisted. Yeah, Uncle Dirty. Ah, Uncle Dirty. Yeah, yeah. I can picture him, high-waisted. Yeah, Uncle Dirty. Uncle Dirty. Yeah, and like Jerry Diner. Yeah, oh my God. Ron Darien, Vitaly.

Yeah. Like, Attell was working the door, Kevin Brennan was working the door, Stu Kamen. You were like a next generation for me. Just after. But you're in between me and like a next generation for me. Just after. Yeah. But you're in between me and like the Seinfelds. Yeah, Jerry was already very well established

by the time I came up. And Jerry actually was very kind to me because Belzer, Oliver Shalom. I love Belzer. Yeah, Belzer was one of my, like my rabbi. Belzer took me under his wing. He did? Oh yeah, I was very close with Richie.

He took me under his wing and he asked me to open for him at Caroline's when it was on 28th Street, the old, the first Caroline's. The dinner club. Yeah, and he asked me. Belzer did. Yeah, he asked me to open for him. And then they all saw me and they liked me.

And then they asked me to open for Gilbert. Right, that's your generation too, right? Yeah, and I had never met Gilbert. Gilbert was a whole other thing. Nobody could make me laugh like Gilbert. And Gilbert Gottfried, for those listening, you know. And that was like June 1984. And then Jerry asked me to open for him.

That was like a big thing at the time, opening for these headliner guys. Because Jerry's already doing big places, right? Yeah, and Tonight Show and all that, and then Jerry asked me to open for him. Where? At Caroline's. Oh, so you were part of that whole

Nine Street Caroline's thing, huh? Yeah. That had the bar out front, then you walked through the doors into the showroom. Yeah, into the room, it was a great room. Yeah, see, I never did that room, but I went there, I think, before I did comedy, because when I was doing comedy,

she had the South Port, the South Seas port. Yeah, yeah, I didn't love that room. No, it was weird. Yeah, and a weird location. Yeah, it felt like far away, and then I did a couple of TV shots in 89, you probably did too, like, I have a... There was something I did there,

now that I think about it. The Caroline's Comedy Hour. Yeah, I did that too there. Right, at that place. You know, those were like, I haven't thought about those things. All those things we did, those Caroline's Comedy Hour, they paid you what, like $600, which you were glad to have. Totally.

You know? Yeah, and MTV had like 90 of them. You know what people don't believe, Marc? What? People don't believe when I tell them that we used to work like a catch, they would pay you seven bucks a show on the weeknights. Yeah. Remember when they went up to 25 at The Cellar?

It was a big deal. Yeah, and The Cellar also fed you, which was another thing. That was the only reason to go a lot of times. And then on the weekends, you'd get 50 bucks, and it stayed the same 50 bucks forever. And we would do like seven, eight shows on a weekend to make rent. The ones that could. So like a year or so after you start, you're doing that stuff with Caroling. So like what else with Belzer? Cause like when I came out here to LA that one year in 89, and I got all fucked up on drugs, you know, Belzer was out here then. You know, he was driving

around in his El Dorado and he was doing the Store, and he was such a fucking sweet guy. Yeah, he was. And he was so mythic in New York, because I didn't know him when he was the emcee at Catch, and he had this reputation, and the drugs, and the rock and roll, and everything else. But I got to know him as a slightly older guy, who just kind of had a thing.

You know, he was not big, you know, he had a joke. He was another one that never wrote material. Yeah. But he was the bells, right? He was the bells. It was all, and then of course, you know, he got really, I don't want to say he got lucky. Who knows what luck is, but then he got the job playing munch on homicide. He also got lucky when the wrestler dropped him on his head. Yes. that's true. That bought his house in France, Paul Kogan. But he got the job on Homicide. Yeah, yes. And, you know, that was a great gig.

For years. Yeah, for years. And then they took that character and put that character into SVU. So he worked forever making money doing that, that cop character. Yeah, yeah. And his brother used to host a radio show, right? Lenny. Lenny. Yeah, yeah. And his brother used to host a radio show, right? Lenny. Lenny. Who killed himself. He did?

Yeah, jumped off the roof of his building. Was he sick? He was depressed. It was just depression? Yeah. Yeah, but I just, I just always, you know, loved Richard. Yeah, I never got him to do this. Oh yeah.

No. Bells was, he was a, he was really good to me in many, many ways. And he would just, you know, he just took me under his wing and introduced me to so many people. And I, wherever he was going, he would invite me and, you know, yeah, he was great.

These people, it's like, okay, I don't wanna get teary-eyed, but, you know, like, my darling friend Richard Lewis died recently. And so, so far I've mentioned Bells and Lewis and Gilbert, and these voices cannot be replaced. Totally. These are such original brains of their time, and they're gone. I know. And Richard, like I did his little podcast like two or three weeks before he died. Yeah.

I think he saw me as some sort of legacy of his, which I'll take it. Yeah, I can understand that. Yeah. And he'd always send me emails about what he was doing, like the articles. Oh, God, the emails. Forget the emails. The emails are legendary. This is what would happen.

Okay, we would go on the road sometimes together. You and Richard? Yeah. Not road, like we would do like a theater somewhere. Right. And so like 10 days before the gig, the emails would start. I would get the first email and be like,

all right, fasten your seat belts, here we go. Literally like 20 a day, I'm not exaggerating. Really? Like 20 a day up until the day of the gig. Like what kind? Insanity, just the same thing over and over again. Just, I'll go on, I'll go on, you'll go on first and then I'll do this.

And you were not allowed to, he would drive up to the stage door. Yeah. And when I would say, good night, ladies and gentlemen, then he would first enter the building. He wouldn't be in the building ahead of time. He was so idiosyncratic. Wow.

And crazy, but the most loving, sweet, generous kind. I love that he was, like, even with all the help, still crazy. Oh, he was so crazy. Like, he would, no, I wouldn't get those kind of emails. I think there was some sort of, it's not weird competitive thing, but it is, but like, he would just send me articles about him. Constantly, constantly.

Constant articles about himself. And Larry actually did an intervention with him, which was just like, you gotta stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those two were really sweet together. Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, they were born in the same hospital. Right, and they went to camp together.

They went to camp together where they hated each other. And then they met at the improv and were best friends from that moment on. And there was something about the two of them together. They were kind of like me and Joy. They just connected in a way, in a comedic way that was just like a brother. Yeah, it's so weird because when I talked to,

well, I loved Richard and I remember I did the A-list, which he hosted before he got sober, you know, on Comedy Central. It was called the A-List. That's vaguely familiar to me. Yeah, there were two hosts. It was him, and then I think, oddly I think it might have been Sandra Bernhard later.

Oh, I just saw her the other night. Oh, how's she doing? She's good. Yeah? Yeah, she's good. But like, but I remember he was sort of drunky then, you know, like he was in his room and he was drinking.

Well, he had a serious problem. Totally. Yeah. And he helped a lot of people in recovery. Yes. A lot of people in recovery. Yeah, I just loved it because he watched my last special and he sent me a complimentary email, but you could tell it was kind of not easy for him to do.

But yeah, like somehow he had to get himself into it. You know, like, He was always with me. He was different, but maybe because I'm a woman, so... No, it's sort of like you did a great thing, I could kind of see myself do it, like, he couldn't just let it be... What I think people don't realize who are Curb fans who've seen Lewis in the later years

is that when I was coming up, I mean, before I even became a comedian, Lewis was huge. And he was, like, so vital, because the other thing that I talked about after he died on stage, I do a little tribute to him, is that he would really riff. Oh yeah.

And it was, no one really does that anymore, but he forced himself to do it. Like he'd have- Is that true? No one does that anymore? Well, they do, like, you know, like I'll go do it cause that's how I write. Yeah. But like he would set out, like he would go up there,

he'd know where he wanted to go, but like he'd get into that- Have a huge legal pad. That's how I write. But like he would set out, like he would go up there, he'd know where he wanted to go, but like he'd get into that- Have a huge legal pad. That's right. And he'd get into that rhythm, but like he was really on, like on that high wire, like doing that thing. Do you write, do you write or do you write on stage?

Like I write ideas and outlines, but it's all about like when it happens on stage and whether I remember it and then add it. I just wait till things stick, but it all happens on stage for the most part. Me too. That was one of the reasons why it was so anxiety provoking. Cause this is how I would write a punchline.

I would have a premise, an idea, not a premise even, just an idea. And I would go on stage and it was like the gun to my head, a punchline would come to me on stage. That's it. That's the way to do it. That's how I always wrote. I was never, you know, like somebody like. But then did you hold onto it though? Yeah.

Yeah, right. Then you own it. That's right. But I mean, it's terrifying to work that way and exhilarating at the same time. But a lot of times your premise is funny enough. I mean. Larry used to be all premise when he used to go on in the old days in the 80s. He was all premise, but hilarious premises. The posse comes and knocks at his door in the old west

or if he had an answering machine, like shit like that. So you saw him do stand up? Oh yeah, many times. Really? Cause you talk about, it was very funny when I interviewed him live, which he wouldn't let me record. Cause there's that story about him,

like the one that goes around with, you know. I've seen it. What? Walking off stage? Right, where he goes, I don't think so. Yeah. But he had me, like we were live in DC, about 3,000 people, I said,

well tell me that story, he's like, it's true. And he goes, I'll do it, bring me up. And he gets up. He gets up, he goes stage left, I go, ladies and gentlemen, you know, from New York, please welcome Larry David. He walks up to the front of the stage, he goes stage left, I go, ladies and gentlemen, from New York, please welcome Larry David. He walks up to the front of the stage, he goes, I don't think so.

I saw him do things like, he'd be killing. And one woman looked at her watch and then he would storm off. Or he would always say, I MC'd a lot. So he would always say, when you do the cross, when I say, ladies and gentlemen, Larry David, and do the cross, and he would always say, you know, when you do the cross, when I say, ladies and gentlemen, Larry David, and do the cross, and he would always whisper in my ear, stay close.

Because that was a time when you were the MC, you'd go to the bathroom, you'd go out to the bar, whatever, done with him, you had to stay in the room. Because if he had a 20 minute spot, it might be over in three minutes. Really? Oh yeah. Just based on the audience.

Just based on him and the audience. One night, it was late at night, we're at Catch a Rising Star, and he's telling some joke about a bungalow. And a woman in the audience says, what's a bungalow? This set him off, I can't even tell you. He went off on a rant. It was as though she said, what's the Holocaust?

You know what I mean? She didn't know what a bungalow was, it made him insane. But he did have an act. Oh yeah, he always had material. He always had material. He was not like Lewis who would just go on stage, or like you and I would do. Yeah, yeah.

But he was not joke heavy, it was stories, long form stuff? He was not joke heavy, no. He had no punchlines really. He had hilarious premises. He used to have this bit about Jonas Salk's mother. Right, right. Estelle, my son, he cured polio. And then he would go on and on about how Estelle's son was a camp driver. He would just go off of these crazy premises, but it was hilarious.

Because he was so committed. He was so committed and it was fun. I mean, the man is brilliant. Yeah, he's a genius. Yeah. But like when I was talking to him, the genius is like he really restructured how television works, how television comedy works.

Yes, he did. Because of story. Right. It's not jokes, because it's story points. And I always think that Curb, because we don't have a script, is a true situation comedy. It's all about the situation. And it's why it's so funny, because we're not saying sitcom lines. It's why, well, Lewis was actually always guilty of this.

It's why for years he would never let guest stars see the outlines, because he didn't want them pre-preparing. The only person who used to pre-prepare was Lewis. Oh really? Oh yeah. Because he didn't want to... He wanted his lines. Lewis was a jokester. Yeah, he wanted to score.

He wanted his lines out there and then Larry would yell at him and Larry would do things like try to throw him off by just saying something to him. How do you feel about cotton, like whatever it is, to just throw him off by just saying something to him, like, how do you feel about, you know, cotton? Like, whatever it is, to just throw him off his joke. Yeah. It was very sad when he died, you know? It was so sad, and I'm so glad he got to do

the final season, because it was so important to him. Yes. It was so important to him to do it. And I told him when, it was so funny, because like, you know, I get into this, when I did his podcast, he was, you know, physically compromised from the Parkinson's. But I told him, I said, look, man, you know, I get into this, when I did his podcast, he was physically compromised from the Parkinson's. But I told him, I said, look, man, you know,

if you want me to go on stage with you and moderate so you can tell stories just to work the muscle, you know, I'll do it. You know, we can just go up there and I'll talk to you. And you won't have to get up and run around. But for a guy that was so physical and the whole thing. You know, the thing that I noticed in this last season, and you could see how unwell he was physically.

Yeah, oh no, yeah, yeah. But I'll tell you, his brain, I saw his comic brain working and it was as sharp as ever. His body betrayed him. He couldn't get it out as quickly as he used to get it out. And that's got to just be the worst for a guy like that. I'm glad that I got to talk to him. 05.00 And you know, I mean, I never know if this is the right thing to say or not, but he died of a heart attack. And I know Parkinson's, because my brother has it in advanced stages, and it's horrible. So he didn't get to that really horrible stage.

05.00 That's what I said. 05.00 It's like, God bless him. 05.00 Yeah, that's what I said to Larry. I said, it's lucky that Larry was like, yeah, it seemed like he was getting a little better. He wasn't getting, you don't get better. I know. Well, that's, it's sort of like when you, my only point of reference is when you have an animal who's like, you know, dying, but you know, you don't want to put him down, right?

So you're just like, you know, he had a good day. Yeah, he had a good day. He was, look, he was out walking, you know. It's such a hard thing, isn't it? The worst. Putting animals down. I finally manned up to, cause I grew up with a lot of animals.

Yeah. And my mom would just, you know, she would just take them and I just couldn't handle it. But the two cats, a few years back, they were brother and sister and they both got sick. But it was crazy because one they both got sick, but it was crazy because one of them got sick with the kidneys. And I kept her alive too long.

I was giving her fluids and everything. But I went in and did it. I went in with her and I sat with the vet. And then her brother, Monkey, he was not doing well, but then Lynn Shelton, my girlfriend, had passed away. And I said, I was with this cat and I'm like, dude, I can't take it. You got to hang on for a few more months. I just can't do it. And then eventually I did it. And I think I did it.

My first dog that was just mine, not a family dog, when I went in to put her down, I was not sure. And I remember the vet said to me, she said, I've never had somebody come and say I did it too soon. I've had so many people say I shouldn't have waited so long. Right. So. Yeah, the vet with the second one, he was like, look, it's... I'm sorry your girlfriend died. Thank you.

That must have been horrible. Terrible. It was just terrible because it was like out of nowhere. It was just terrible. But the cat hung in there for a few more months. All right, well, you needed the cat at that point. I definitely did. You really did. And they kind of know, you know, the animals. Yeah, it was a tragic, horrible thing, you know,

but I guess, you know, sometimes life is just like that. But like all these old guys, like how close were you with Gilbert? Very. Yeah. I gave his eulogy. You did? Yeah. Was it funny? Yeah. Yeah, I gave his eulogy. You did? Yeah.

Was it funny? Yeah. Yeah, you had to give a funny. Somebody said to me, I forgot who it was, you know, can you say fuck? I was like, it's Gilbert. Yeah. Can you say fuck at his eulogy? It's Gilbert.

Sometimes the eulogies for these guys are amazing. Gilbert's, there was a lot of good eulogies for Gilbert. Jeff Ross was the MC. Okay. And yeah, I told a lot of stories about how cheap he was. Oh, yeah? Yeah. He was such an odd, like it was a singular talent that just didn't, there was no other way he could be.

You know, that's the weird thing I think. But you know, here's the thing, Gilbert was married, he had two kids, his gorgeous, beautiful, incredible children. But later in life, I mean. Later in life, but even so, when Dara, who's his wife, his widow, I remember when she lived on the Upper West Side, they were just dating and she came, I ran into her in the street and she said, I really love him, but I wanna have kids and get married.

And I said, Dara, you gotta move on because this is not the right guy for you, if that's what you want. And I was right, but then he got married and had kids. is not the right guy for you if that's what you want and I was right But then he got married and had kids. So what the fuck did I know? Yeah, it's interesting Like I just like he it's just not nobody like that guy. I watched a clip of him the other day He was funny him doing his Andrew Dice Clay impression. Yeah, it's crazy. He was a complete original Yes complete it but again what I was talking about in the beginning, you know, my brother, they didn't diagnose in those days.

He was just the weird kid. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you know, brilliant IQ and all that shit, but just a very odd duck. But it's like Joy used to say to me, we'd be hanging out, she'd be like, how can you have a conversation with Gilbert? I see you standing there having a, I knew how to converse with that kind of odd person because of my background.

Yeah, exactly. And you enjoy your best buddies? Yeah, still. And she did stand up for a long time. A long, long time, yeah. I remember, like, for some reason I keep getting this, did they do a show maybe at the Green Street Cafe or somewhere, I feel like there was a show

that she hosted or something. Did she host it? She hosted a show. A TV show, like a comedy. It was called Way Off Broadway with Joy Behar. I think it was on Lifetime. Yeah. This was maybe in the late 80s.

Yeah. And her head writer was Larry David. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. And it was a stand-up show? No, it was a talk show. Okay. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. And it was a stand-up show? No, it was a talk show.

Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I'm going to make sure I remember that because I saw that in its credits, but I didn't know what that was. Yeah. And then, but then she didn't like... And then she did radio show.

Then she got a radio show. Right. And then she got The View. She was doing The View for 25 years. But at some point in The View, didn't she have a little comedy corner thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I remember I did that.

Yeah, yeah. It was like Joy's comedy corner or something. Yeah, she would bring on her friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People she thought was funny. Did you end up doing a lot of TV? Yeah. Did you do The Tonight Show and stuff?

I did The Tonight Show right before Johnny retired. Oh, so you did a Johnny Tonight Show? Yes. Yeah, it was bad also. It was bad. Yeah? Yeah. What happened? Don't look it up.

OK. I was actually, I was on a series at that time. Joy and I were both in this series. It was Baby Boom. It was a series of Baby Boom of the movie with Diane Keaton, with Kate Jackson. And they had me on because it was NBC as like you know the

new NBC little ingenue or something. Yeah. And so I did panel. I didn't do stand-up. Oh okay. Yeah. But it was not. Oh that's too bad. It was not. We did not connect. Oh really? Yeah. Was he connecting with anybody at that point? Well David Steinberg was the guest before me. Yes. The comedian. Who had done it a million times. Yes. A guest hosted and since became my very close friend because he was one of our directors on Curve. Right. And he couldn't have been, he was like held by hand.

I didn't know him at the time, but he was terrific to me. And then, and he did. I've never been so scared in my life. I can't imagine, yeah. I remember there was no moisture in my mouth at all. Just because it was Johnny. It was Johnny. I grew up with that. Just because it was Johnny. It was Johnny. I grew up with that.

I know. It's not the same now. Well, I mean, he- I mean, I did the Tonight Show last week. You did? Yeah, with Fallon. And I had a great time, but it's a completely different vibe. Of course.

You know, it's not the same. But the show business we grew up with, it seemed like a small community of guys that knew each other. And there was three channels. That's right. And it was a lot different, because we grew up watching was it seemed like a small community of guys that knew each other. And there was three channels. That's right. And it was a lot different because we grew up watching those roasts, you're watching Johnny. And it could make or break your career in a way.

Back then, yeah. That going on the Tonight Show Now is not making or breaking your career. No, hardly anybody sees it. They watch it in clips. But I always defend Fallon because he's a very excitable guy and he wants you to entertain him. So when I do it- Oh, I had a great time with him. I like Jimmy a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he does a different job, but it's a good job. Completely different than you. But he does what he does and he does it really well. But I will say right now, my idol right now is Kimmel. I love what he's doing. Yeah? Yeah, because every night he's talking about

Trump and diapers. It's fantastic, it's a public service. And he's funny about it. But he's old school, you know, and he loves being a broadcaster, and he comes from radio, so he does the thing. Yeah, and he's terrific. Yeah, I like him.

Is that something you would wanna do? I don't think so. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And any of those guys that I've like, before I go on stage, if I talk to them, you can see it, they're like, and they don't, everyday. And they gotta do a cold opens and a sketch

and then a blah, blah, blah. It's fucking a lot of work. But Mark, you've had a nice career. I do all right. You've had a great career. I landed on my feet. But you made it. I mean, I don't mean you made it in business. I mean, you created it. That all right. You've had a great career. I landed on my feet. But you made it. That's right.

I don't mean you made it in business, I mean you created it. That's right. It was created out of desperation more than anything else. Well, that's how it goes. But it worked out. Every once in a while, the cosmic timing works out.

Well, you were like the first podcast, not the first, but you know what I mean. You were like, you made the whole. Yes, yeah, yeah. When I started. Like now everybody has a fucking podcast. I know, and I don't have any resentment. We still do it audio only and we still do,

you know what I mean? Right, right. And I do a very specific thing, but yeah, it worked out. I didn't think I'd be this guy, but for years at the beginning of the podcast, if I had fans come up to me, I'm like, but do you know my comedy? Yeah. You know what I mean?

But I do comedy, you know? No, but it's... It's all come together. And it's nice and varied and you know my comedy? Yeah. You know what I mean? But I do comedy, you know? No, but it's all come together. And it's nice and varied and, you know? Yep. It's a good career. So what are you going to do now? I don't know. I'm unemployed.

I have a couple of irons in the fire. Yeah. And we'll see, you know? Are you going to relax? Yeah, I like to work. Yeah. Yeah, I like to relax also. Yeah.

Like this, I'm going to the airport right from here. Yeah. And going home. So I have a couple of weeks off, which I'm looking forward to. Yeah. But I don't like to have too much time off. And are you guys, are the Curb crew

gonna do any more events or anything, or is this? I don't think so. I think this is it. Who knows? We'll do some retrospective in five years or something. You know how that goes. But we did a thing at the Paley Center two nights ago and that's why I'm out here.

And then that's it. That's it. We're done. This is my last piece of press right now. Yeah. Now what if, like, is there anybody that could get like you and maybe Joy or somebody back on stand-up stage? Maybe.

Yeah. I think her more than me. She really does, I mean, she's on the air every day, so she's doing stuff every day. And got to get up early, too, right? I mean, she's also, you know, 81 years old. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, not that that's old.

She looks great, she's got a lot of energy, but it is a young people's world out there. I don't know any of the young comedians. You go to clubs, so you know them. Yeah, I still work. I still go out and work out. I go tonight, I'm gonna go tonight. I know a few of them, but there's a whole other,

there's hundreds, there's thousands. There's so many more than when we were, do you, I don't know if you remember this, because I was thinking about you before I came here. You and I had a fight once. I remember that you didn't like me for some reason. No, I didn't dislike you. It was at Catcher Rising Star, the next generation,

when Rick opened up. Like down on 22nd, yeah, like by FIT. 28th Street. Rick opened, it used to be the ballroom, and I just remember, I was emceeing, and backstage we had a fight. I don't remember what it was about. Yeah. Do you? No, but I remember remember, I was emceeing, and backstage we had a fight. I don't remember what it was about.

Yeah. Do you? No, but I remember, like, I, it was not a great time for me in my life, that period of catch, but I do, yeah, I remember we did have a fight. I don't remember what it was about. My memory, if I remember anything,

was that you were an asshole, but it might've been me. Maybe I was, I don't know. Maybe that's just, because I don't remember anything of what it was about. I do think I was an asshole, or it might have been me. Maybe I was, I don't know. Maybe that's just, cause I don't remember anything of what it's about. I do think I was an asshole or I read that way. But I get that.

But you're not alone in that perception at that time. I think I had a kind of aggressive swagger based on my insecurity. There you go, well don't we all. Yeah, and I was trying to do something. And then you were also more, you know, I always felt like you guys, you alternative guys. Yeah, but I came up in the clubs.

I know, but I always felt like you guys looked down on us joke people. Yeah, well yeah, but the thing, the misconception about me was, is that, you know, I started in fucking comedy clubs and I started on the road in Boston and when alternative comedy happened, I'm like, I'll just go there without any expectation

and just ram and riff and be angry and do whatever. Like it was a great workout for me. Right. Because I eventually in 89 or what was it like 89, 92, I moved to San Francisco. Oh, you did? Yeah, I was in San Francisco for like a year or two. And then I came back to New York,

but to sort of continue to build the way I do comedy. And then I'd go back to New York, but I couldn't work anywhere other than Boston Comedy Club and the old improv. Louis never fucking passed me. Esti didn't pass me until 1995 when she saw my HBO half hour. Oh, really?

So I was stuck in like, you know, the old original improv and Boston Comedy Club. I remember that Boston Comedy Club. Yeah. Yeah. And like, and I couldn't get- That was bad audiences in that room. The worst because you just had the comics, you know, dragging people in.

You know, in a way, I mean, I admired that ability to do that because I was addicted to killing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it hurt me. It hurt me creatively. Yeah, no, I needed to figure out who I was and what I was doing. And for years, my assumption was everyone is as angry as me inside. But that's not true. Some people aren't. But, you know, it worked out. Do you think all comics are angry?

No. I don't like all the generalizations about comics. They're not, after talking to so many of them, they're not really true. You know, they might be a little, you know, I think they're socially, for whatever reason, don't work well with other people, or they, you know, they don't fit into the world right. But I don't think they're angry, and I don't think they're all sad.

But some of them are a little nuts. I'm not sad. Yeah. But you know, I do think that, and this is a generalization, obviously, but I do think that comedians see a little more than other people. So it makes you a little more sensitive.

And in that sensitivity, it's a feeling thing. You might over feel things. But I don't know why we all go up there, because if I'm in a certain mental state and jokes aren't working the way I want to, it hurts me. It's painful, it's very painful. And what people don't understand is, when you're dying on stage, they are rejecting you. They're rejecting everything who you are

and what you say and how you feel and that you're saying to them, I think this is funny, and they're just completely rejecting you. I've gotten able to, and Freddie Roman fucking shit on me for this, but. Freddie Roman. Yeah, I've gotten able to, like I know how to bomb,

you know, but I'm not gonna not make light of it. And I'm not gonna not blame them to a degree, or if it's me, I'll say that, but I'm going to draw attention to it to save my fucking ass. That's why you have to. Yeah, but I did that roast at Chevy Chase. It was the worst night of my life.

I ended up crying in that fucking hotel room with my friend Sam. I'm like, I can't do it anymore. Cause I'm not good at roasting. I know. You know what? It's interesting that you brought that up because I'm not a roaster either, because

roasting like Jeff Ross, it's jokey. And you really have to have jokes, especially when you're in those big grand ballrooms with the high ceilings. You know, they open. You can't just wing it. No, you have to have material. And so they asked me to do a roast of Jerry Stiller in 1999. And I did.

And everybody was writing jokes for me because I'm not a joke writer. I just don't even know how to write a joke. I could write a couple. I wrote a few things. And I did it, and I did, and it was not the way I was used to working, and I killed. Larry saw that, and that's when he called me and gave me the part. Wow. Thank God for those joke writers. Who were they? I don't remember who wrote the joke. Larry Amoros wrote a bunch of jokes. Yes, Larry Amoros. And I had good jokes.

Yeah. Like I remember my opening line was, Alan King was on the day as I said, Alan, do you ever think you'd live so long that your prostate would be as big as the ego? You know, it's just like jokes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I did not know I was not good at. And that was at the Friars Club? No, it was at the Hilton Grand Ballroom.

That fucking place. Horrible. That's where I was and it was Chevy Chase who didn't want to be there. No, and it does not have a reputation for being loving and supportive. And the jokes I had were good, but I was tanking. And I drew attention to it.

And then like Freddie Roman, like, you know, in the Observer somewhere, cause someone wrote about it, said like, you know, never draw attention when you're bombed. Well, the old school, I remember Pat Cooper. I love him. Yeah. Pat Cooper saying there's no such thing as a bad audience.

I totally disagree with that. Totally disagree. That's like old school bullshit. Yeah, there is a bad audience. Of course. The thing that Pat Cooper said to me that I thought was genius, he was on a podcast. I wish I had interviewed him, but it was on Danny LaBelle's show. He said he was talking about Sinatra. You know, or he's talking about another comic. And I think Danny said something,

well, you're a comedy star. And Packer goes, no, I'm not a star, I'm a name. That's different. And I thought that was genius. He was an angry man. He was saying, I'm a name. Hilarious. I'm a name. Well, it's great to talk to you. I know you gotta go to the airport. Thanks for doing it. There you go. Suzy Essman. You can listen to Suzy on the History of Curb Your Enthusiasm podcast,

which is out now. And don't forget, Thursday's episode has me and Larry David hashing it out a bit in the garage. Hang out for a minute, folks. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions. At Enterprise Mobility, we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities. Because if your business is on the road, we wanna make sure it's on the road to success. Enterprise Mobility, moving you moves the world. Okay, folks, I got a treat for you.

Well, for the full Marin listeners. Okay, and it's happening tomorrow. In the early years of WTF, we did some live shows that were available for purchase. Those shows have never been part of the regular podcast feed. Starting tomorrow, we're putting those episodes up for full-merin subscribers.

The first one was taped at Comics in New York City in April of 2010, and it features guests like John Mulaney, Janine Garofalo, and the late Greg Giraldo. Can I tell the people you're gonna judge last comic standing? I can't, I signed a confidentiality deal. Can you tell them? No, I don't wanna touch on anything that sensitive, Mark.

Can you tell the people? How the fuck are you gonna do this? Did you like that show? I did already, I did. No, I never watched the show, but I don't give a fuck. At this point, it doesn't fucking matter. What, are we really gonna be purists? Can you tell the people? How the fuck are you gonna do this? Did you like that show? I did already. No, I never watched the show, but I don't give a fuck. At this point, it doesn't fucking matter. What, are we really gonna be purists?

No, no! This is your stab at it. I mean, none of us is going anywhere, so fuck. Oh, Last Comic Standing. Last Comic Standing, why not? That's his spirit. Fuck. Good for you.

No, it wasn't a matter of purists. I would have judged Last Comic Skipping. I would have said, oh, this guy's pretty quick. I don't care. Have you pitched that? I might. I might. This is how fucked up the business is. I didn't even tell you this whole story. I'm a pilot for Spike. Things are going very well for me. So I was pitching this pilot, and it had no name attached to it. Then somebody said, what the fuck? Because you're asking

these questions. What the fuck? And I said, actually my friend has a podcast that's called that so I don't want to do it. They go, that's a fucking podcast. I go, I know but he's my friend, I don't want to do it. And they keep, it's like they don't even care. They go, yeah but what the fuck, we want to call it that, it's just a podcast. But he's my friend. Yeah but what does it matter? This is Hollywood, it's television. We'll call it what the fuck. We'll call it what the fuck with Mark Maron. So you shot what the fuck. So what the fuck, Greg Giraldo it What the Fuck with Mark Maron. So you shot What the Fuck? So we cut, yeah. So What the Fuck with Greg Giraldo. What the Fuck with Greg Giraldo you can watch after the Ultimate Fighting Championships

on Spike. To get that episode when it drops tomorrow plus all the bonus episodes we do twice a week go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF+. And just a reminder before we go this podcast is hosted by a cast Here's some sweet guitar. I'm using my my What they called, you know that scale I'm working with it, but now I'm spacing mixolydian Am I doing a mixolydian thing? So So So So So So So Boomer lives, monkey and Lafonda, cat angels everywhere.