WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1546 - Ed O'Neill

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

Ed O’Neill’s his early days working in an Ohio steel mill and contemplating a potential career hustling for mobsters didn’t seem like a path to Hollywood. Nor did his days playing football and coming up short during NFL tryouts. But his working class Irish background wound up making Ed the perfect portrayer of Al Bundy, a performance partially based on his own uncle. Ed talks with Marc about everything that led up to Married… with Children and Modern Family, and why he was determined to say no to the new FX on Hulu limited series Clipped, right up until he said yes. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and save 10% on your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nix? What's happening? How's it going? Is everything alright with the things that you are doing? How was your life? I am right now looking over downtown Vancouver from 17 floors up. Oh, what's going on down there? Why didn't I go to that? There looks like there's all kinds of food trucks and shit. All right, well, all right, well I'm gonna do that after this. I'll do this first and then I'm gonna go

down there. I don't know what's happening, I just noticed it. Today on the show Ed O'Neill is here. Now Ed O'Neill, most everybody knows him from Married with Children and Modern Family. I did not know him, but I always figured he'd kind of be a solid guy with a real story, and that turned out to be true. A very good story, and he's a very good storyteller, and we had a very good time, a lot of varies there. But he's in this new FX limited series, Clipped,

about the Clipper scandal, which is now streaming on Hulu. And I know that he's in this new FX limited series clipped about the clipper scandal, which is now streaming on Hulu. And I knew nothing about it because I don't give, I give zero fucks about any sort of sports and not in an aggressive way. It's just, I just don't care. But I watched all of them and, uh, I thought it was very engaging and very entertaining and I didn't, and I learned things. So, so that was exciting. Before I forget, there are new cat mugs available from Brian R Jones they go on sale today at noon

Eastern these are the handmade mugs you get if you're a guest on WTF so I assume I'll be getting some as well because I'm out down at the house. Again, these are available today, starting at noon Eastern by going to WTFmugs.co. They go quick and they're always different. So collect all of them or just get one. I know a lot of people have been trying to get just one for years. Good luck. The last time I talked to you, I had mentioned needing a place to work out in Vancouver. I have a place to work out exercise wise, but what I was talking about was comedy wise because I need to stay in shape. I got the Vogue theater here June 21st and then I'm going to go to Seattle on June 22nd for the more. But I think that show is at least almost sold

out here. So I've been just trying to stay in engaged, keep that relationship with a live audience going. I not unlike working out at a gym. I believe that if you're doing comedy and you're serious about comedy and you're a working comic that you got to really work that muscle two, three times a week. Not unlike getting that cardio, right? You just got to get up in front of any audience, any audience to make sure that that channel stays open.

Not that if it closes, I'm going to forget how to do standup, but there is going to be some clunkiness to it. So I was a little nervous about what I would do up here, but there is a show that I did. I think it's called the Jokes, Please show, and it's run by a guy named Ross and my buddy Charlie Demers, who's a comic up here, who's going to be opening for me at the Vogue, kind of told me what was up. And this is a long-running show. They do it at two different venues.

and it told me what was up. And this is a long running show. They do it at two different venues. And I did it both nights. Talked a little bit about my experience in Vancouver up to this point. It's funny that, you know, I've romanticized this city for so many years, that it's sort of the ultimate beautiful city, which it is, but I do realize that

if I'm gonna be spending a lot of time up here, that will probably diminish a bit. I'm not saying it's going to go away, but everything kind of loses their shine once you kind of engage with the realities of it. But I'll tell you, again, I think I've said this before, the things that used to, you know, not frustrate me about Canada, but at least, you know, make me not even wary of it, but make me think that it was sort of boring are exactly the things that I find appealing now. There is definitely no, it's almost like America, but without that, you know, kind of like invasive sense of

fear and panic everywhere, and there's no kind of like menace to this place. And I think that's something that in the people there, and I told them this last night, I said there's definitely a ceiling to the energy of the people up here and they laughed a lot at that. So I guess I nailed something. Nothing's gonna get too crazy. Has something to do with health care and

no guns, but even the the meth heads are polite up here. I was waiting for a lift in the in Chinatown. I'd gone to some place called Vegan Supply to to get a variety of fake meat proteins. I was standing out front and there was a guy with this cute little round pipe. He was dressed a little better than most, I think, uh, the average meth head, but he was standing in a doorway kind of by himself, kind of set back. And I was, he was, you know, I was facing the other way towards the street and he was talking, he was having a conversation and it felt like it was directed at me and I turned around and I said, are you talking to me?

And he said, no, I'm sorry, we're talking. And he was the only one there, but I appreciated the politeness in that moment. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace and Squarespace has been one of our trusted sponsors for years, but they also support the show in another big way by powering our website, WTF pod.com and you can find out what it's like to have Squarespace in your corner right now

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Create and manage a video library with videos you can edit using the Squarespace video tools. Go to squarespace.com slash WTF for a free trial and when you're ready to launch use the offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash WTF offer code WTF. Get started today. Also on the acting front, I don't know if this is on the acting front, a few days ago we spent the day on a golf course, did some shooting on a golf course. This is a show about golf. And I'm not a golfer, but I was on the golf course and there were clubs around and there

were professional golfers there. And I was like, all right, let's give it a shot. And I picked up, I think a seven iron, maybe an eight. And the guy showed me where to stand, showed me how to hold it. The kid did, Peter, the guy who's playing, Santi. And then the golf pro told me what to be thinking about. I lined it up and I took a swing

and I fucking got some air, man. It made that sound, that sound, that kind of that crack of a golf ball, that ping of a golf ball being hit properly and you just see it fly, some fly up over the trees and I knocked out like I didn't have any control of the distance or where it was going but I definitely connected with the ball and sent it up, up, up and I was like oh my god is, is this going to happen to me? Is this going to happen? Is the one thing outside of the experience of performing in a TV show,

am I going to come out of this show? A golfer? Is that something I can accept about me even as a possibility? Don't know. I imagine not because I think it takes a lot of time and focus and practice and um, that not for me any of those things I want to be good at it right away is there any way I could just be good at it right away and just get it all the way through me but it did feel good to whack those balls and I think I'm probably gonna be whacking some more balls throughout this shoot. Uh, what else is happening up here? Oh, I went out with Owen,

uh, Wilson and the show runner Jason Keller. And if you've, if you're from Vancouver, you know about this. And if you've visited Vancouver, maybe if you don't know about it, Owen wanted to do the grouse grind. Yes. This is a hike. It's very well known hike. It's sort of very well cut out of a mountain. It's literally a staircase of rock and steps. But it is a seriously straight up incline for at least an hour.

And it's fucking gnarly and I didn't know what to expect. I'm in pretty good shape. You take a gondola down too, by the way. I mean, I'm in good shape. I exercise. I do a hike near my house that is an incline that is pretty straight up. But there's, it's definitely, there are breaks.

It's tempered with flatter, there's definitely reprieves from the incline, not on this fucking grouse grind. It was crazy up there. And Owen's like, yeah, let's do it. And it's like, all right, I think I can handle it. And he just, he cuts out, him and Jason cut out at this clip.

He'd done it before, Jason hadn't, I hadn't. So we're kind of pacing Owen Owen who's been up there before. And he's just, he's going a little quick. And I knew that, but I'm like, well, fuck it. If he can do it, I can do it. I'm not being competitive, but he was kind of, you know, they were timing themselves. I'm just not that guy. Look, it's just one of these things, you know, like a kind of

functioning metaphor for life. Right. If there are these people that, you know, they, they challenge themselves. a kind of functioning metaphor for life, right? There are these people that, you know, they challenge themselves, they're, you know, they're goal oriented, they're, you know, they're going to, you know, get a better time or get to the top.

It's a self-esteem builder, a character builder. I don't think I'm really that guy. I don't think that's the way I look at life. I'm more the guy, you know, and I'm in good shape again, but I apparently I'm more the guy that I'm doing that guy. I don't think that's the way I look at life. I'm more the guy, you know, and I'm in good shape again, but I apparently I'm more the guy that I'm doing this thing. Yeah, I want to finish the hike, but you know, all of a sudden, you know, I'm pretty like, it's hard and I'm pretty hammered. And then there's a sign that says, you know, basically you're halfway up. And my impulse was not to be like, alright, just focus, man.

You got this. Just pace yourself and just stay in it. No, actually my first response was like, what is the fucking point of this shit anyways? You know what I mean? I got my heart rate up, I did good, we've been going for a half hour. What's the fucking point?

And yeah, I think that's more of who I am. I obviously wanted to finish, and I do, you know, I am, you know, I guess there's that part of me where it's sort of like, I'm gonna ride this out, I'm going to finish what I started. But there was none of that sort of like, come on man, you're gonna feel great, you know, this is like, you know, rise to the occasion,

this is how you get better, think about like the feeling of success when you conquer it at the top. No, my disposition is, my disposition, no, my disposition is I get to the top and I'm like, all right, well that's never gonna do that again, or like, all right, fine, I did it. I'm done. That's good. It's no like, you know victory. I Have you know I have succeeded Beyond my expectations of myself and now I am a better person But I imagine like any other hike if you do it twice and you kind of know what you're up against

It'll be a little easier. I had no idea where we were going but but I think you know, I I wouldn't say I was I was happy to get to the top and I guess there was some pride But the, but I think, you know, I, I wouldn't say I was, I was happy to get to the top. And I guess there was some pride in it, but, uh, but it was sort of like a bit much. That's all. You get to a certain age where it's sort of like, why don't you push yourself? I'm like, why, why? I got what I needed. I got, I told the, what'd I say to Owen? I said, yeah, man, you get my heart rate was pounding. And he's like, well, that's what I needed. I got, I told Owen, I said, yeah man, my heart rate was pounded.

And he's like, well, that's what you want. And I was like, yeah, you want to get it right up there to blow speed. But you come right down, man. You know, it's not the same. When you stop walking up, your heart rate level's off. Different, it's different. Folks, there's a reason we've been recommending SimpliSafe Home Security for eight years as the home protection option we

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There's no safe like simply safe. So Ed O'Neill and I had a pretty great, I would say very great conversation. The FX limited series clipped is streaming on Hulu. Episodes one and two are currently available and there are new episodes on Tuesday. This is me talking to the very entertaining Ed O'Neill. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions at Enterprise Mobility we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so

they can find new opportunities because if your business is on the road, we want to make sure it's on the road to success. Enterprise Mobility, moving you moves the world. This episode is brought to you by FX's The Bear on Disney+. In season three, Carmy and his crew are aiming for the ultimate restaurant accolade, a Michelin star. With Golden Globe and Emmy wins, the show

starring Jeremy Allen-White, Iowa Deberry, and Mattie Matheson is ready to heat up screens once again. All new episodes of FX's The Bear are streaming June 27th only on Disney+. I got this thing in my mind like lately I'm kind of you know I'm mad like I'm kind of obsessed with this you know with the the right wing criticism of nepo babies in show business oh yeah you know like you know like you know that it's an elitist community out here. And I started to think about everyone I've interviewed, and I would say 90% of the people I've interviewed come from working class backgrounds.

I do. Right, that's why I was like, I was kinda looking into it, but like, most actors, it's not, there's no easy way. No. And like, you know, they focus on like a dozen people and they're like, look at these elitist fucks. I just, I just had a flight back on a plane when New York. I was in New York last week with Jeff Bridges Yeah, he's the best and Jeff was saying hi for most of his life. He suffered from believing

He was it was nepotism. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm Jeff Jeff You don't know take it from a guy who was a blue-collar guy. You don't have to, take it from a guy who was a blue collar guy, you don't have to worry about that. Yeah. I mean, I watched you in Last Picture Show, I watched you in Fat City. Fat City, or what was that one I just watched where he gets, with Quinn Eastwood, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot.

Thunderbolt and Lightfoot. Oh my God, where he gets hit in the head. Jeff's great. Oh, he's always been great. Jeff's great, and one of the nicest guys. Did you ever do him? Yeah. Yeah, he's great. Great guy. And Danny DeVito. He was on the flight too, and I know Danny from oh my god Danny, you know Jersey

Yeah, yeah, yeah, talking about him do WAP and I forget where I met him. I just met him someplace He's like truly himself that guy absolutely true Absolutely himself. I mean most of us have too many selves. Yeah, yeah. I think he's only got one. Yeah, and it's a good one. It's a good one. It's like the last time we saw him like total immersion into a role was Martini in One Fool

Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Oh my God, that's the first time I saw him. I know and you know I remember. Of course you remember, but that's like, like, that's not him. I mean, he really, he's like, all right, he did Martini, he's like, all right, he did Martin, he's like, enough of that, now I'm gonna be me for the rest of my life. I mean, he's amazing.

But wait, so, but Ohio, that's kinda hardcore. Yeah, Steel Mills. Yeah, and you grew up in that? Yeah. Like, what were your folks doing? Union, town, my mother was eventually a welfare worker. My father worked in the steel mills. He did? Doing what? So did his.

Oh, really? Worked open hearth, labor gang, worked- Pouring the molten steel? Yeah, I did it. You were pouring steel? In those days, it was called tapping the furnace and by the time I got around, it was jet tapping. So it was done by a machine. Yeah, but you had to Work on the open heart floor. It was pretty you know, it was hot was with all that like because all the images in my head

Are just of this like, you know orange lava. Well, you could die on the open heart floor Yeah, but did anybody die? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean I never saw Well, there was a guy named McCarthy that fell in. Oh my God. What happened was behind the furnace is where the jet tap is placed. Now before that it was done in a different way. I can't even know what it was. When my dad worked in there it was called hit the pile, hit the furnace, hit the pile, hit the furnace. It was a circular route with a big shovel.

And you had to be expert at that. You would jack it back and hit a spot on a wall in the back of the furnace, maybe 20 feet. And then fill it back forward. And then they had machines that- And you're making girders? Making steel, molten steel. Oh, just the raw steel.

Raw steel. So you just the raw steel. Raw steel. Yeah. So you would be doing that. So, and what was I doing in there? I was, I forget what I was doing, working in there. But when they would start to tap the furnace. Yeah.

When you tap a heat, they call it a heat. If something goes wrong. Yeah. The, the bonuses in the entire mill drop. Yeah. So it can't happen. And those guys are the melters. They're responsible for the heat.

They're the first helper, second helper, right? I was just a labor gang guy because I was a college student. Yeah. And your dad got you in? My dad got me in. See, nepotism does exist. Nepotism. My dad got me in. See, nepotism does exist. Nepotism. My dad got me in. And they had a segregated locker room.

What a gift, the nepotism. That's a gift. It's very much like the trade unions in New York, you know, the guys that pick you up and drive you from your hotel to the... Sure. Those guys are... Those are inherited jobs. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. The union job forever. Forever. Yeah. So it was segregated locker rooms? There was a segregated locker room that my father was not, you know, he just was there. It was his locker room, not his personally, but he used it. And because it was all white in those days, we're talking about 19... When would that have been?

60s in the 60s. Yep. Yep. And so, and even though it was very ethnically diverse. In Youngstown. Yeah, in terms of Hungarians, Italians, Irish, Jewish, there was also Armenians and all that stuff. And you guys were Irish? I'm 100% Irish. Armenians and all that stuff. And you guys were Irish?

I'm 100% Irish. I know that because I did that Finding Your Roots. I did that too, it was crazy. Crazy, right? I didn't know that. How's my family on both sides came to Youngstown in 1850? On the same boat? No.

Same caravan? I don't know. It was boats. But they were all from the west of Ireland. And so my mother was a Quinlan. They came from Mayo. Oh, that's beautiful there. Yeah.

But they were out, you know, they were out in the west of Ireland. And we romanticized Ireland, but yeah, there was a reason they left. Yeah, and there was a reason they didn't get out and died. Yeah. So there was a reason they didn't get out and died. Yeah. So, that was that. And anyway, at the end of the show, I was with Sammy Hagar, who I don't, you know, you don't meet them. Where is this?

Sam, I don't know. Oh, right, I'm finding your roots, right, right. You don't meet them. No, that's not separate. And he had a very interesting show. Yeah. And then they're panning with the credits, it's Sammy Hagar and it's the circle with the pie.

Yeah. You know, Ashkenazi Jewish. Ashkenazi Jewish. it's Sammy Hagar and it's the circle with the pie. Yeah. You know, uh, Okenazi Jewish. Okenazi Jewish. That's where Hagar was? Yeah, a lot of that. He didn't know that. Really? Italian.

Oh, he was a big mix, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Then it comes to me, it's one blue orb at O'Neill, 100% Irish. I said, Jesus Christ, I was hoping for a little Spanish or Italian. Yeah, I was hoping. I knew I was Ashkenazi, but I was hoping that maybe there's a little Viking in there.

Yes, yes. I was hoping that maybe the Vikings came down to Poland. Yeah, a little Norman. Yeah, something. No. 99% Ashkenazi. 99% me, Mick. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, uh. But did you, so you're a few generations down though from 18, like, what was it, your grandparents came? Yeah, I was born in 46. Right. So they came in 1850. Oh, I had 18 relatives in the Civil War. Yeah? Cousins, I guess, that fought on the side of the Union.

Yeah. But the hero of my story, there wasn't a whole lot in my story to be honest. Yeah, the O'Neill side They didn't make the famine. Oh And the and the records were in those little churches in the west of Ireland that the English burned down right at one point Yeah, others so there was no records of that, but the hero of my family was on my mother's side. Her name was Ellen Tyrrell yeah family was on my mother's side. Her name was Ellen Tyrell. Yeah. My great, great, great grandmother came to Youngstown that time. I never heard of her. She had two sons. They were, the father was a coal

miner. All those guys were coal miners when they came to Youngstown. Before steel. Yeah, before steel. And then the civil war broke. Can you imagine? They just got here. Civil war broke out. Yeah, sued up. The both sons enlisted, and the first one got wounded. He was in a field hospital in Louisville.

Yeah. And she went down. She was in her 50s. Yeah. She said, I'm going. And the husband, I can't imagine what he said. You know, where is it? You know.

Yeah. She got there, and she was a nurse in a field hospital and she went back three or four times. She was a hero. Wow. And she died at like 89 in Youngstown. Wow. I saw her a bit.

And this is all from Finding Your Roots? Yeah. You didn't know any of this? No, and the guy said, you never heard of her? She died in like 1900. Yeah. I said, no, never heard of her. Isn't that odd that like, you know, because the stories, I guess everybody's so survival

driven that, you know, I guess once an ethnic group comes to America, you know, they're not the stories they tell are probably more of the old country. And, you know, I'm sure that that story just got lost. Yeah. And they were talking about the strikes and the steel mills when I was a young man. The important stuff, yeah. Well, actually, the big strikes happened when I don't think I was born yet.

Yeah. And then when I was born, there were a few. Yeah. But I mean, it was labor unions. If you crossed a picket line in Youngstown, you would, you could be beaten to death. Yeah. And it was, and it might have been me doing it.

Yeah. I mean, I never did do that. I mean, I would have because that was, you don't do that. Right. No scabs. No scabs. So how do you get from, so you're working in a steel mill in your 20s? Like, I mean, how do you get to Hollywood? Jesus Christ. Oh, I don't even remember. It was like... And like, I mean, how do you get to Hollywood? Jesus Christ. Oh, I don't even remember.

It was like, here's what happened. Here's what happened in a fucking, this is quick. We have time. I was a rookie with the Steelers. You made the team? No, I didn't make the team. No. I read that somewhere.

That you made the team? That's like somebody said I was in the movie Deliverance. I was never in the movie Deliverance. I wish I was. And I wish I made the team. You were in Cruising though. I watched Cruising recently. I was never in the movie Deliverance. I wish I was. And I wish I made the team. You were in Cruising though. I watched Cruising recently. I was in Cruising, yeah. To see how it held up. I watched it and I'm like, holy shit, there's Ed O'Neill. He's

like one of the guys. Yeah. I was in a Broadway play at the time and Friedkin came to the play and he cast me out of the play and gave me that part. Oh yeah. So wait, so you're playing ball. Playing ball. Football. You must have been good, right? I played for two different colleges. I played for Ohio University and Youngstown State University.

And then I got, then the Steelers, they didn't draft me. I was a paid free agent. They say free, but they give you something. I don't know anything about sports, so I might ask you questions. Oh, you can, I mean, neither do I anymore. Yeah. But I went down to La Trobe, that's where the St. Vincent's College,

that's where they have training camp in the summer. Yep. And I think I was there like two weeks. What position? Well, I was trying to play outside linebacker. I had never, we didn't have an outside linebacker. Again, you don't know this. Yeah.

In the college game, it was a five four. So I was a middle guard. I played over the center on a four point stance. And I played a little defensive end. All right, that was it. Outside linebackers are on the outside standing up. They have flat coverage down and out, passes. They have run. They have a lot of responsibility., passes. They have run.

They have a lot of responsibility. There's a lot of keys. So it's difficult to learn it. And I wasn't used to standing up. I was used to being down low. Anyway. And that's what screwed you, huh? Well, that's what I-

Stand up, O'Neil! I don't think I'd have made it anyway, because the idea, you know, with the draft picks, we had Joe Green that year and Elsie Greenwood, a lot of top guys. Was that like the Steelers heyday? No, it was the year before. So Rocky Blyer was in Vietnam. He came back the next year.

I was gone. My rookie year, he was in Vietnam. That's when he got wounded. Yeah. So to make the team even if you do well in the position you're trying out for and they don't have linebackers or one gets hurt they'll try to trade. Yeah. If they trade you're still cut. Right. If they can't

make a trade for whatever impossible then they may keep you on and see how you do. You know what I mean? Let you sit around for a while. But the odds are stacked against you. Yeah, it seems like you made it pretty far. I did. Yeah. Oh, I was good. I mean, I was-

Did you love it? No, I got sick of it, actually. Because I had played for two different schools, I had a couple knee injuries, I didn't like coaches. Chuck Nol I liked, by the way, he was a real nice guy. I didn't know him well, I'd been there two weeks. Talk to him much. For the Steelers? Yeah. But I didn't like any of my college coaches.

And I was, you know how the, I guess, I guess, you know, when you're a young kid, you're when you're a young kid you're playing in grade school then you're playing in high school You look at the coaches like fathers. Yeah, you know, they're nice to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and Trying to get in shape. Yeah, you do anything for them. Yeah, just what they want. Yeah And as you get older, you know, you start to say, wait a minute, this is not quite what I thought it was. Yeah. They don't really give a fuck about you. Yeah.

I'm sorry, is this all? Yeah, it's all right. And once I figured that one out, you know, I thought, well, it must have been a, were you able to tap into that for this new series? Oh, yeah, I guess so. I mean, you use everything, right? You can't, I guess it's subconsciously. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I guess so. I mean, you use everything, right? You can't, I guess it's subconsciously.

But I remember thinking this is making me mean. I mean, I was, I, I play the only way I, I never got coached. Yeah. I never had good coaching. Yeah. I was undersized as a boy. Yeah. I think 99 pounds in a freshman year, 120, sophomore.

How'd you make the team? My senior year, I was 180. I got up and I started lifting weights my junior year. And then by the time I got to Steelers, I was about 225. I ran a 4.740. In those days, pretty fast. Yeah. And I was kind of a, I was an aggressive player, you know?

In other words, I would try to hurt you. Yeah. Because I thought that's how I'm gonna shine. But it's not your nature. Well, it was becoming my nature. Do you know what I mean? Maybe it was, I don't know. But I didn't like it after a while. I thought, I don't like the feeling, you know?

I mean, I like the hitting. What, did you feel guilty? No, I don't think I felt guilty. You just didn't... I can't like the feeling, you know? I mean, I like the hitting. What, did you feel guilty? No, I don't think I felt guilty. You just didn't. I can't explain it. It was just kind of frightening in a way, that you were turning into this. Well, yeah, I think maybe what happens is

you start to feel like you're losing who you are. And I never knew who that was. Right, but if you can lock into me. Yeah, that's true. That can define you. It's hard to explain it. Yeah. But you can lock into me. Yeah, that's true. That can define you. It's hard to explain it. Yeah.

Because you're just trying to do so much at a young age in front of people that you're, you know, it's just the Steelers. Yeah. You know, and yeah, it was... So where do you go from there? So you weren't heartbroken. Well, when I got cut, no.

But I was numb. The day I got cut, Noel was very nice to me. They're nice to you when they cut you. Sure. He said, look, all the bird seed, you're a tough kid, I like you, but you don't know this position, but the Eagles need linebackers. I talked to Coach Kulharek, and if you want, but I have to know right away, we'll rent you a car, you can drive down the Pennsylvania Turnpike to Philly,

and they'll give you a good look at linebackers. They're desperate for linebackers. What do you want to do? And I said, I'm done. I forgot that. I didn't remember that, what I just told you, I'm done. I forgot that. I didn't remember that what I just told you till a year ago. That was not part of the conversation that I would tell people the day I got cut.

That was your decision. That it was my decision. And that's probably why. Because coming from Youngstown, you didn't quit. You would die before you would quit. Well, that's not true. But you believed it. It's enough to repress that part of the story.

I wanted to believe it, you know. And so I told him, and he looked at me and he said, it surprises me. And I said, it surprises me. I said, but I'm finished. He said, well, what do you want to do? I said, I don't know, but not this. Yeah. And that was it.

Yeah. And so now you're just untethered, floundering around? Completely untethered. I had a rough year. I mean, it was basically drunk in bars, fighting two or three guys at a time. You know.

Lucky you didn't end up in jail. Occasionally. Yeah. Oh, it's lucky I didn't end up in jail. Occasionally. Yeah. Oh, it's lucky I didn't get killed. I mean, in Youngstown, you know, it's... Was the life of crime an option? It was. It was, because the mob in Youngstown was quite strong.

Yeah, I think, what was the family there? Because it was close enough to Chicago. Dean Martin came up in Ohio. Steubenville. Yeah, Steuben, what was the family there? Because it was close enough to Chicago. Dean Martin came up in Ohio. Steubenville. Yeah, Steubenville, right. But I knew, look, in Youngstown it was two families. Joey Naples, the Naples brothers, and the Carrabbias. Ronnie Crabb, Charlie Crabb, Orly Crabb.

And others. And you were a big boy. I was right off the Steelers. And I went to grade school and high school and played with one of the guys who was a good friend of mine. So when I was at sea... He was one of the guys... He eventually became one of the guys.

Yeah, because his family was involved. Italian guy. Yeah. And a great guy. And whose name guy. Yeah. And whose name I never mentioned. Yeah. You don't want to get hurt.

It just wouldn't... It's something you stay scared of. It's just something that remains with you. Don't rat. Exactly. No scabbing, no ratting. Exactly. So it was just a very casual drink.

Yeah. And what are you going to do now? With who? With one of the brothers? No. When the old guys are your buddy. This friend of mine. Yeah, yeah.

This friend of mine. And he said, you know, I mean, we could, you know, you could do some things for me. Yeah. It'll be real stuff. I wouldn't put you in it, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah. And I said, gee, that's, thank you.

That's a really nice offer. Now he dropped me off at home and I was at home now briefly and my dad was still work, laboring, not in the mills, but now he was working for my uncle. He was delivering bar restaurant supplies in a truck. Yeah.

Or no, I'm sorry. What am I saying? He was working for Soho gas. He was driving the tanker. Yeah. So he was, he was getting, he worked the night shift a lot of times and he was getting ready to go to work. Yeah. And I came out he was getting, he worked the night shift a lot of times and he was getting ready

to go to work. Yeah. And I came out on the porch, he had a swing and he said, hey I saw you with your buddy there, he's a great kid, I always liked him, where's he been and blah, blah, blah. So I haven't seen him for a while, Dad. He took a ride, you know, catch up. Yeah. He said, let me ask you a question, I want to ask you a question.

You know, I don't want to interfere with anything. Yeah. I said, no, what? And he said, can you do time? Yeah. Now, did your father ever ask you that question? No. And I said, right away.

Yeah. No. Yeah. He said, no, we'd have a difficult time doing that, a stretch. Yeah. I said, no, I don't think I'd do well with that. Yeah. And he said, okay, I was just wondering.

See you later, kid. He went out and he left for work. And I went and called my friend and I said, hey, thanks for the fucking million. I appreciate it always, but I think I'm gonna do, it's not for me. It's so funny, so you said no to the Eagles. Same. And no to the mob. It's so funny. See you said no to this to the Eagles same they know to the mob same couple of weeks

And with not a clue about what I was gonna do at least you knew what you didn't want to do That's pretty that's all I knew yeah, it's clever your dad was clever, and I had done some acting in grade school I had done some acting in high school, and I liked it But I could never tell any of my friends this because it's, what are you, faggot? Yeah. You know, I mean, what do you mean? Yeah. I'd say, no, it's the girls.

Yeah. The girls. That was, I guess that was the spin. That, you know, that was the slow turn. Well, that had no space, yeah, that's... Well, I mean, that was the whole thing with all those method guys, is that half of the method was justifying acting is something that real men did. Yeah, exactly. You know, so...

Again, you had to fool yourself. Yeah. It was, but I really know, so. Again, you had to fool yourself. Yeah. It was, but I really did like it. Yeah. So, that was, and then, you know, and by the time I decided to go to New York. Well, how'd you pull out, like, how bad were you drinking? I mean, like, how fucked up, how lost were you?

Three days a week. Yeah. You know, maybe four a week in the bars. Yeah. I had my bars. Yeah. Drinking a lot. Yeah smoking, and for a while I got on pills, and yeah, it was not good.

I knew, you know, in the back of my mind, I thought this is not gonna end well. Right, so you weren't ready to quit that exactly. No, and it made me feel good. And then of course the next day I felt worse. So I finally, I finally sort of chucked that for the most part. So where do you actually start getting gigs as an actor?

I went to the playhouse, the Youngstown Playhouse. I read something in the local paper, Cuckoo's Nest. Oh yeah. And I had seen the movie and I had read the book. Yeah. Because I read a lot. Yeah, book's great. And I auditioned, I was terrible. Don't remember.

From McMurphy? Yeah, McMurphy. And of course it was already cast. You know, those local play houses, they have to cast their season with what they got. Yeah. I didn't know that till later, but anyway, that was, and then I went back for The Rain got. Yeah. I didn't know that till later, but anyway, that was, and then I went back for The Rainmaker.

Yeah. And then I imitated Burt Lancaster because I saw the movie. That must have been something to see. Nothing. But the guy, you know, they didn't get many guys like me out there. Big guys.

Yeah, you know, guys that didn't look like anybody else. Oh yeah, what's this guy doing? Yeah, what is this guy? And he said, look, we're doing Antigone. Have you ever heard of Antigone? And I said, that's a Greek, yes, yes, you heard of Antigone. I said, yeah, well, it's in the small theater, you know, the big theater. It's a great playhouse, by the way, downstairs.

And I said, yeah, I've been down there. He said, you can have a role. And I was literally, Just standing there? Holding the spear. Yeah. And I loved it, you know, I loved it. And then I went to the university.

And you're watching the whole play there. I watched the whole play. I watched the leads and the, you know, the monologue, you know, their big speeches and everything. I can do that, I say. And so then I went to the university and I met the artistic director at Youngstown State. I told him I was an actor from the Playhouse.

I didn't realize he hated the Playhouse because it was a competition. And so, I, so I got into the advanced acting class, which I didn't. Yeah, yeah, completely't. Yeah, yeah. Completely lost. Well, you held a spear. I held a spear.

And somehow, I started to progress. And then eventually, I was doing the leads, some of the leads, not all the leads. And then I went to New York. Because I found out all my acting friends at the university, you know, we'd go to the parties afterwards. It was great. You know, drink all night. Yeah, sure. Have fun.

And yeah, you weren't getting in fights with three guys. No. They were nice people. No, I was getting, it was hippie kind of thing then. And, but I always had this, you know, locked and loaded back there. So it was like, I said,

I'm going to go to New York. I actually said this to a group of my acting friends and they went, are you nuts? I said, no, aren't you? No, we're going to, I'm working at University of Kalamazoo in lighting, you know, and they all wanted to do techie work. I said, no, I want to perform, you know? Yeah. They thought you were to perform, you know? Yeah. They thought you were crazy.

They thought I was crazy. Yeah. You know what the odds are? I don't know what the odds are, but you know. So I went. If I had known the odds, maybe I wouldn't have gone. You just went to New York. I just went to New York.

With nothing or with a little something? With nothing. And what did your dad say? He said, when I told him, he went, Can you do a stretch? Good luck, kid. Yeah, that's it. You try the thing that's almost impossible.

Right. And now you're doing this thing. And his favorite actor was John Wayne. Yeah. Not the part I would be playing necessarily. So it was, I mean, I was bussing tables in New York. But he didn't quash your dreams.

No, and you talk about nepotism. I was bussing tables at a restaurant called Dobson's on the Upper West Side. Yeah. Clearing the tables. Yeah. Not waiting on the tables. The waiters were, you know, hurry up!

You know. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, geez, I used to play with the Steelers. I could have been in the mob. No, I'm bussing. Yes, I could have done all this and I'm bussing these tables. It's humbling.

It's humbling. But I love New York. You know, I fell in love with New York. And did you get into an acting program? I took one class. I went one night. One class, literally one class. One class, one night. No, actually, no, there were two.

Yeah. The first was a woman named Helen, no, wait, no, no, no. She was Russian. Miros, Miros, Miros. She was Montgomery Cliffs acting teacher. Okay. If you wanted to Google that at any time in your life. Mira Rostova.

Method person. Oh, Russian, Moscow Theater. Yeah, real deal. And she was of the manner born. What do you mean? Well, just, you know, she was darling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One doesn't perform that way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. One doesn't. Yeah.

Perform that way. Right. You know. Right. It's Guildenstern and after all, Tom Stoppard. Yeah. So I, she lived on 17th street.

Yeah. On the west side. And I, and I called, you know, I read, she had, had Montgomery Clift, who I loved as an actor. And I said, could I get, could I take a class with you? And it was, I think it was no. Who are you? Why don't, you know, you need to come down and fill out, you know. And I said, I don't have time if I'm working, bussing tables.

And so come to my apartment tomorrow at 10 a.m. Something like that. So I went and I went in and she was very cool, very polite, cool little apartment and said, now you'll be doing two monologues, you'll be doing a classic and you'll be doing a contemporary. You know this.

I said, yep. Are you prepared? I said, that's why I'm here. Fine. And she had a cup of tea. She sat down and I said, could I get a glass of water? I'm a little dry. Yeah, I'm nervous. I said that. Yeah. I'm nervous. So she, and she looked at me like I had asked for a large loan. Yeah. She got up, didn't say a word, went to the sink, little water, no ice,

just you know. Yeah. Yeah. So I sipped the water and I did the whatever the classical one, I don't remember. Antikany? Wasn't Antikany. I had no lines. You know, I could've done this. Do you have a broom? Yeah, do you have a broom? And I recreate. Yeah. So I did, I know my contemporary was Rosencrantz and Guildenstein are Dead. Yeah. And I had played that. I had done it in a dinner theater, believe it or not.

In Ohio? In Ohio. In a motel. Yeah. And there was a lot. It was, we did many, we did like five performances In Ohio? In Ohio. In a motel. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a lot. We did like five performances and it went very well. But in the last one, there's a line that Guildenstern has where he says, the very air stinks and the plumbing had broken and there was this horrible smell in the floor as the sewage

water was running out and they were canceling the show. So I did the part of, I did the monologue, the dead in the box speech. Yeah. If you've ever heard it, it's quite good, very clever, stoppard, you know. And so I finished it. And I had done it. Hmm, all right. Now, I think perhaps she critiqued it. Yeah.

You're, it's all wrong. Right. And I said, oh, I first, I thought, well, maybe I'll learn something here, you know? Okay. Yeah. This is Mira Rostova. Yeah.

You should do it. And she, whatever the way she told me to do it, I thought, no, that's not right. I mean, even then that, so I had this kind of, it wasn't this, you know. Yeah. And I said, I disagree. I think the way I did it is fine and the way it should be done.

And she said, good day. And I paid her. Yeah. And that was the last acting, no, I did one other. Yeah. And it was a circle of actors, and they went around the room, and they started out with, I am I. The next one.

I am I. Yeah. And I'm here, right? I'm the furthest from that circle. Yeah. And I'm panicking. I'm thinking, I? I'm the furthest from that circle. And I'm panicking. I'm thinking, I can't say this. And they got to me and I said, you know, I'm just monitoring.

I'm not really taking the class. That's quite all right. Say it out loud. And I said, I can't. I'm sorry. And I left. I just couldn't do it. I am I? I am't. I'm sorry. And I left. I just couldn't do it. I am I?

I am I. I know who the fuck I am, I think, a little bit. Right. And that was the second acting class? Yeah, and my last. Because I was already 32 years old. I thought, how long am I gonna take these fucking classes? Yeah.

So I did find work. Yeah. Eventually, a Soho rep, and then I got a, I've lucked into, it's like everything else. I fucking lucked into this understudy for a Broadway show at the Helen Hayes Theater, which starred Danny Aiello, if you remember Danny. Sure. Is he gone? He's gone, yeah. And he was quite a character the, it was about a boxer in the forties. Yeah.

That's where I met Dempsey and Dempsey came. You met Jack Dempsey? Yeah. Wow. On my picture with him. How old was he then? Eighties. Oh, wow.

He was with his wife who was German. Yeah. And he was, he was, had his mind? Yo, yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. It was one of the highlights of my life.

I mean, he was a very impressive guy. Yeah. Oh, you remember when you were a kid? Yeah, my father's favorite fighter, of course. And then, of course, I watched a lot of the films. And then when I talked to him, I talked to him for quite a while. Yeah. He said a very funny thing to me.

I said, Jack, I said, you know know I know a lot about you yeah I said but you always seem to be nice to your opponents you know and that he said well that was the way it was back in those days you know see that everybody doing the same thing trying to put food on the table you know for your family right no reason to be upset with the guys trying to do the same thing you're trying to do yeah I said yeah but today it's all trash talk. And he said, yeah, I don't understand that. He said, you waste a lot of energy, a lot of time,

you get mad at a fellow, you don't even know him. Why get mad at him? So there were a few fighters I didn't care for, but I never let that get in the way of anything. I said, well, but you didn't feel, I was going for something else, you didn't feel like you had to get angry to fight better

against an opponent. He said, no, of course not. Hell no. He said, look, kid, everybody got the same thing. My brother, a fella I didn't like too much. Same thing. I'm going to knock him out as soon as I can. I love that.

You look at him and you think, uh-huh. The same thing. Same thing. Yeah. So that was great. Did you realize that you had that thing? Not to that extent, no. I'd be lying if I, I mean, because those guys came up, look, here's the difference in my,

no, this is my own theory. Yeah. Not my own theory. It has been tossed around. When I was a kid, when you were a kid, Mark, we went to school. Yeah. Grade school, junior high school, high school. Right. When we were sitting in classrooms all day, guys like Dempsey were working bailing hay, working in coal

mines. They were working hard. Yeah. When they were 12, 13, maybe a little older, maybe 14, 15. Yeah. And they say now that there's some science that you can develop very strong tendons and ligaments, but it needs to be at a very young age. Yeah. And if you wait till you're 18, 19, it's too late.

Really? To get that what those kids have already. Right. So Dempsey, though he only weighed like 190, was immensely strong. Yeah. And for all that hard work that he did. Right, right. And fighting men. Yeah. When he was 15 he fought men that were 20 years older. Yeah. Knocking them out.

Yeah. You know in bars for lunch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Riding the rails underneath the trains you know. I mean these guys were tough. Real tough. He said I have a great interview with him and his Dempsey's where he said to this guy who was interviewing him, young guy, he said, you ever not eat for three days, son? He said, no, no, I'm going to talk about when you have the flu or when you're feeling good, you just can't find food, there's no food there.

Then you got to ride the rails under a train to get someplace and've got to fight, and if you don't win, you don't get paid, and you don't eat again. Yeah. He said, no, he said, well, you'll understand if you ever do that. He said, you could hit me with a sledgehammer

on the chin, I'm getting up. Yeah. That was a different type of guy. Yeah, yeah. Was it at that point you realized, like, I picked the right field to... Oh, yes! Much easier! Right? To act? And just by talking to him, you're like, I can pretend to do that. I can pretend, yes!

So what happened with the understudy? The guy... What happened was, I had done some boxing. You know, obviously by now you know I had done some boxing you know company obviously by now you know I had been doing that fighting yeah a long time yeah and and that takes some doing you know to learn that yeah because it doesn't come naturally I don't think it didn't for me it might for others. But to actually aim for with intention, a guy's face with a fist, you gotta break some barriers.

It's not natural. There's an invisible, that's why you see people argue so much and very rarely does that happen. So you have to learn that. And once you learn it and you start to like it, then you're going down that road, you know, where, pardon me.

Say it again. The next thing is, boom. Yeah. There's no hesitation. Yeah. And the guy's probably thinking, yeah, he's what? And you know, you're already hit. Yeah. And so that's probably thinking yeah, yeah, he's what and you know he's down. You're already hit Yeah, and so that's a big advantage

You know and you learn that I learned that and then I and then here's the other interesting thing When you get away from it. Yeah acting acting acting acting it goes away Yeah, it's there way back now. It's not up here. Yeah. That's with anything. I think it's with anything. Yeah. It's interesting. I get nervous about it because I got, I just took an acting gig and you know, I've been doing stand, I do stand up. So like I do it every night or at least three times a week and I got to do this acting thing. And I'm worried to you know, that I know that you got to keep the muscle going. You do. Yeah. Because it's just an, it just an engagement with the audience.

Yes, then of course now you're gonna have to say, okay, I understand this. Yeah. Give me a little break, I'm going back in and it might take me a little bit. Yeah, yeah, a couple shots. Yeah, so it's like that. Yeah.

And then of course with the age thing, you start to get older and you don't have the same reflexes, you don't have the same anything. Yeah, I know. Everything hurts. You know what I mean? Yeah. Everything hurts.

Yeah. So, there's that. Yeah. And, but you get the role? Yes. What happened was the guy doing the role, who was a friend of Danny's, didn't know how to box. And they hired me because I was teaching him how to box.

And they had Jose Torres, he was the Lady of the Way champ with Custom Auto. He was the technical advisor on that play. It was the last play in the Helen Hayes Theater before they tore it down. And when I auditioned for the part, I had to get in the ring and move around with a guy like, like boxers. We weren't really, you know, landing punches.

But so I got out of the ring and I was getting, putting my shirt on and Jose Torres came over to me and said, uh, where'd you fight pro? I said, I never fought pro. He said, no, come on, man, don't bullshit me. I know a pro when I see one. You're a pro. I fooled him, right? Yeah, he pulled it off, yeah.

And I told him, you know, no, I've been into a lot of street stuff, but I'm not, I'm not. He said, oh, okay, you fooled me. But, so I got the part because this actor couldn't make Danny look good. Yeah. in the ring. It was all about Danny looking good. Yeah. And I could make him look good, you know, I could do all the stuff. Do the dance. Yeah, like if you see Brando in On the Waterfront. Yeah.

The way he, if you see Stallone, you say the guy never had a fight in his life. Yeah. Even though it was a good movie. Yeah. Rocky. Rocky, the first. Yeah. The others. Yeah. But the first, yes first yes yeah he was just like kind of lumbering was a lumbering yeah but when you saw Brando the way he moved the way you know they

they would hey champ and he would just do this yeah yeah shoulders looked like a pro. Yeah. He locked in. And also Voight did well. And also that wonderful, you know, English-Irish actor, you know, who did My Left Foot. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He played the boxer. It was called The Boxer. Yeah, it was great. Daniel Day Lewis. Daniel Day.

He looked like a pro. And De Niro, too. And not so much De Niro, but De Niro, Scorsese shot it beautifully. Yeah. And he did wonderfully well. I'm not, I love De Niro. Yeah. And I loved him in that play, in that movie.

Yeah. But not, he didn't look like Daniel Day or, you know, Right. Guys that really know how to. But did he look like Jake LaMotta? Not really. No? No, not really, no.

Yeah. LaMotta was a real, real, real deal. Animal, yeah. Yeah. LaMotta. I knew LaMotta a little bit. You did? Yeah. He was another guy. But not as wise and humble as Dempsey, huh? No. No. No. It was a very interesting time though, you know.

What, the 80s? Yeah, in New York in the 80s. Yeah. I loved it. So from that, that was the beginning. That was the beginning. And then Friedkin came, Bill Friedkin, and saw the play.

And he liked what I did in the play, and he hired me to be a plainclothes cop in cruising. Yeah. That's how I got that. And then, like, I didn't know about this... Dogs of War? No, the series for Popeye Doyle. Oh, that was a pilot.

It was just a pilot. Just a pilot for NBC. For French Connection's show. Well, it was, yeah, it was Popeye Doyle, you know. I mean, I had seen French Connection. Yes. I know, it was one of my favorite movies. The best.

And Hackman's one of my favorite actors. The best. What makes him your favorite? I just love his work. I mean, I just think he's intense when he needs to be. Yeah, he can turn it on and turn it off. Really turn it on. And he's just marvelous to watch.

Yeah, amazing. Amazing. I never would have done that. The script was, it was a movie for TV. It was, you know, it wasn't French Connection, but I had to pay rent. Was Freykin involved? No. Oh. No, and this was after.

Yeah. And then I did, well, I did Dogs of War with Walken and I had a little, I was a mercenary, I was in it, I had a good little part inen. And I had a little, I was a mercenary, I was in it, I had a good little part in there. They cut out a good scene, but they always do that with Walken, with Chris. And I got to know Chris and- You still friends with him? Oh, well, whenever I see him. Sure.

I don't see him that much, but we'll see. Yeah, yeah. He's a very funny guy. Walken? Oh my God. He's very aware of his Walken-ness. And he always, I think always, he's from Queens, you know, he's from sunny side. He's a dancer.

He went to the performing arts school, you know, he said, I got my diploma from Gypsy Rose Lee, which is true, her daughter was in his class. Yeah. But I remember when I was, I hosted Saturday Night Live. What? The only reason I ever did that was because, you know, my managers- This is during Married with Children? Yeah. Yeah. Or it might have been close to being over, I don't remember.

But it was Bernie Brillstein and Mark and they produced that show. Yeah. They got me in, you know. I would never do it again. Yeah. But, um. Why, do you like the, uh. I don't like doing cue cards, I didn't like, look, I had nothing against Lorne.

Yeah. He took me out to dinner with my wife, had nothing to say to me. I had nothing in common with Lorne. Right. I wasn't Paul Simon. Right. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't John, you know, Lennon. Yeah. I wasn't Lennon. So I was like, and he wouldn't touch Married with Children because that would be like,

you know, that's not their show. Yeah. I mean, if it was Seinfeld, he would have done something from Seinfeld, you know, that sort of thing. So I was in Nowhere Land with him, but the guy coming in was Chris Walken to do the next thing I did. And they have this meeting, you know, when you come in there and Chris was in the back with sunglasses and I think he might have had a little bomber. Yeah.

And Lauren was holding court and then of course he says, now, now we are honored to have Chris, Mr. Chris Walken as our next. The week after you. Week after me. I heard this, I wasn't in the room. Yeah. And he said, now Chris, you know, and the same thing he said to me, if you find something that you would like to try, something you think amusing, something that you bring to the table,

we'll be happy to entertain that and give it our best look. And Chris goes, he's got the shades, you know? He says, well, bears are funny. Likewise, bear suits. And everybody. Likewise, bare suits. And everybody... And he was great.

You know, he brought so much to it. He was great. But you didn't feel like you did a good job? No, it wasn't my thing, you know. So how do you get married with children? I was in LA for a failed pilot from New York. I was living in the village. I went out there, it was Christmas was coming.

I was playing handball, the Hollywood Y, and I get a call. They want to see Sunset Gower. There's this new show for this new network. It's called Married with Children. That's a horrible title. Yeah. Is it any good?

No, it's terrible, but it's, it's kind of funny in a weird way. I said, I'm at the Y. I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I, Sunset Gower, I said, it's two blocks from me. You could walk. I said, I'm not walking up Sunset. You were at the, at the Hollywood one? Yeah. So I said, they said, can we deliver the script to you?

And then you can go over there like in an hour and a half. I said, sure. And I was used to auditioning all the time, living in New York. So I read the script in the locker room. And I thought, this is kind of funny. So I went over and I had my bag, my gym bag with, you know, 20 pairs of dripping handball gloves, sweating, you know, because you got to keep changing or the ball will slide on the walls. So I go in and it's Ron Levitt, Michael

Moyer, they're the producers, creators, one black, one Jewish, Jewish from, I think Ron was from Brooklyn. And they looked like gas station attendants, honest to God. No, I didn't look much better. Right. My gloves and, and I look at me and they knew my background because the casting director was a guy named Hirschfeld who said, I saw him in a play at Hartford stage. They said, was it a comedy? Was it a?

Yeah. at Hartford Stage. They said, was it a comedy? No, it was Mice and Men. He was Lenny. And Lovett said, well, we should hire Elmer fucking Fudd! But apparently they were desperate. They couldn't find Bundy for whatever reason. And I think it was because most of the actors and there were a lot of good ones Read like Gleason. Yeah, they thought of it like the honeymooners big big yeah and and mad Yeah, you know and I reminded me of one of my uncles Who was like a self-deprecating?

Beaten man beaten yeah, nothing ever goes right and he expects it not to go right. Right. There was a story, and he came home from work one day, and he walked in, and my aunt, my mother's sister, was there, and he said, hi, Curly, what's for dinner? And she said, Joe, I backed out over the dog today. He's dead. He said, but what's for dinner? That's true.

That was... That's how I read it. They never heard it. And they went, I saw them look at each other like... And Moyet tells the story, and I don't know if it's true, because I don't remember it. Before I uttered the first line, probably used to it from this. Yeah, from the spear.

I said, he said he walks in to the house after work and he hangs his jacket up and then he says the first line, what's for dinner? And I hung the, I mocked like, you know, this and I looked and I went, oh, he said he's got the part. He tells that story. That's it.

I didn't have it. I had it. Yeah. Barry Diller, of course, you know, was Murdoch's guy, came into it and said, now you got the girl. I saw this guy do a reading with the girl. You got the girl. You can do a hell of a lot better for the guy.

Than you. Than me. I'm not around. It was originally picked up for 12. So he says, I don't want him. We can do better. Apparently they said, we're shooting next week. We like him better. Apparently they said, we're shooting next week. We can't, we like him Barry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said, it's your funeral. And then he said, do what the fuck you want. I'm going back to work. And he drove back to Fox. Yeah. So they started making arrangements to get me in, called my agent and And he called back and said,

what are you doing with O'Neill? You're gonna let O'Neill go? You're gonna do something else, right? They said, no, you told us we could do... I didn't mean it! Did you believe me? This is a Hollywood thing. Yeah.

They said, we did believe you. You were desperate. Here's how it's gonna work, folks. Yeah. It's no longer 12. It's one. It's work, folks. Yeah. It's no longer 12. It's one. It's the fucking pilot. Yeah.

If this fucking guy doesn't hit it out of the park, the show will never see the light of day, and it's gone. Wow. And we'll get another show for you guys. Now, what do you think the odds were now that I had the part after that phone call? Low.

Zero. Yeah. My experience? Zero. Yeah. My, my experience? Yeah. Zero. Yeah. I didn't know about it. Yeah. Somehow they said, we gotta, we gotta roll the dice.

We, we can't find anybody. We're going to use them. He said, oh, okay. And we shot the pilot under that. Stress. Stress. Yeah. Which I did not know about.

And it went well. And then finally, I guess Diller said, I'd go with him. That's how it was. Now years later, he came up to me at an HBO party, I was doing Modern Family, and he comes up to me and he says, you know, I made a mistake about you.

And I said, we all make them. That's what I said. Not personal. Yeah. It's a ridiculous business. Yeah. So, you know, there. Yeah.

That's the answer to that one. But it must have been like, but you had no idea it would run for... Well, I thought it would go six episodes and out and out we making fun of midgets and fat women. Yeah, and you got a lot of flack. Yes housewife in Michigan Over a joke I told which is she was on her. I heard the story Yeah, she told it who's this The woman from Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. What happened? She was hooked up with the governor.

Very conservative family. She's on the treadmill. She doesn't have the clicker to shut my show off. Show is watching it. And I come out and say, you don't hear good jokes in salons because this barber had died. They said go to a salon.

I don't go to salons, I go to barber shops. You're not going to hear jokes like, what was the joke was, what do older women and dog duty have in common? The older they get, the easier they are to pick up. there to pick up. She went bananas, because she's of a, you know, 50, divorced twice. Yeah. And then caused a lot of heat. Called the governor. And they called the New York Times. Yeah. And the New York Times, again, the business, the New York Times made the, put that article in the paper, and then Coca-Cola, our biggest sponsor, dropped us.

It was a bullshit move, you know, they didn't care. Yeah. And it got publicity. Yes. And then the show, the show was actually starting, I like to say, it was starting to move anyway. I don't think it would have moved like it did without that. Well, it became a cultural institution. In a way it did, and it was, you know, not everybody's cup of tea for sure. Right. But it was a great job, 11 years.

Katie Sagal, I've had her on, she's a pimp. Katie, yeah, of course. I just talked to her last week. She's great. Yeah. Good singer, by the way. Yeah, good singer, sober as hell. Oh my god. Yes, too. Yes. And she, you know, she was a backup for, I don't know if she told you, for Etta James? Yeah, we talked a

little bit about the singing, yeah. Yeah, and Etta said, honey, you love the blues. And she said, I know Etta, because my best friend was her road manager. Yeah. She says, yeah, I love the blues, Etta. She said, where you raised up, honey? She said, I didn't want to tell her. I fudged around. She said, no, where you come from? She said, Bel Air. She said, honey, they ain't no blues singers from Bel Air. But all these kids grew up with you on that show. How's Christina doing? Much better, by the way. Oh, good. Yeah. How's Christina doing? Much better, by the way. Oh, good.

Yeah. I talk to her all the time. So over the course of, you know, between married with children and modern family, how do you feel about your life? You know, I mean, it's been good. It's been not so good. But you've just been working and then modern family happens and you're like, holy shit. Yeah.

Oh, I like that. I mean, that was a great break. You know, that's another one I didn't know. I had met with Leviton and Lloyd because I knew their work and I told my manager, I said, I don't want to do it. It's a sitcom. I want to do another sitcom. Yeah. You wanted to focus on movies? Yeah, or something. Movies, I guess. You know, mini-series. Yeah, yeah, sure.

Stuff like that. You see the end, you know? Yeah. So I said... It's not a life sentence. So I said, well, why don't you just meet them? And I always hate that, because it's like a courtesy thing, you know? So anyway, I went in and I met with them and they, you know, they were very nice.

Yeah. And they hadn't written it yet. Yeah. So they pitched it and the pitch wasn't great. I mean, if you pitch that story, it's like, all right. Yeah, right. Older guy, younger broad. Yeah.

Wasp family and the gay couple. Yeah. Who cares? Yeah. So they said, would you sign on now? And then we're right. I said, would you sign on now? And then we'll write. I said, no, no. I said, in fact, I don't know if my manager, I told him, I don't like to do sitcoms anymore.

Well, this is like, there's no audience. So I liked, I hate the audience for a sitcom. Because they don't know where to look. They blow jokes, they do, if it's a comedy. All sitcoms are comedies. So I said, no, I don't want to do that. Yeah. They blow jokes. Yeah. They do. If it's a comedy. All sitcoms are comedies. Yeah. So I said, no, I don't want to do that.

I said, I like your work. I admire you guys and that's why I'm here, but this is kind of awkward because I really don't want to do a sitcom. Yeah. So they said, well, would you read it when we write it? And I said, of course. I like good writing. Yeah. And a year later, I got this script, different title. They had we write it. And I said, of course, I like good writing. And a year later I got this script, different title,

they had to change it, I forget what the original was. And I, oh, this is that Leviton-Law thing. So I read it, and then I thought, fuck. And I read it again, and I said, oh, fuck. I think I have to do this, this is a hit show. And I don't always, you're not always right. I'm not have to do this. This is a hit show. And I don't always, you're not always right. I'm not saying I know hit shows, but this was pretty obvious that it's a hit show.

So I called my manager, Mark Ervitz, and I told him, and he said that. Too late! They're out to the guy who did the coach on ABC. Anyway, they went out to him. And he's a good actor. We were up against a lot of the- Craig T. Nelson. Craig T. Nelson.

Yeah. So I said, okay, well, you know, I told him I wasn't gonna want him to do it anyway. Yeah. It's fine. Yeah. So then a week later he calls and says, they're back to you.

Because it wasn't a series, it was only a pilot. And I think, and I don't know this, I think Craig probably wanted like, more of a commitment. Pay me for six. Yeah, right. And good luck. Sure. If it doesn't go, I want the money.

Yeah. And they said, no, you know, they came back to me. And I think that, you know, Craig just thought, well, they'll be back. Yeah. But I think somebody like me for it. Yeah. So I said, make the deal.

Yeah. He said, you're not the star. Who? Gervitz. Yeah, Gervitz. I said, no, I know. He said, it's ensemble. I said, that's what I like about it. He said, they're not paying you your quote either.

I said, it's a hit, Mark. Yeah. We'll get even later. Right. And then we'll get ahead. Yeah. OK. So they went with me. Right. And then we'll get ahead. Yeah. Okay. So they went with me.

Yeah. And you were right. Again. With fucking luck that, you know, Craig didn't say, I'm in. Yeah. Right? And then I didn't even know how to play it. I thought, well, now I got the part.

And then at the table read, I look at Sofia Begarr and I thought, who the fuck is going to believe this? Yeah. And then, and table read, I look at Sofia Begarr and I thought, who the fuck is gonna believe this? And then I started thinking, I don't even know how to be back up 13 years, right? Or more, 15, 16 years ago. How to be that age. You know what I'm saying? You know how to be 30, even 40.

But after that. Yeah. What's appropriate? Yeah. I don't even know if I should look at a woman a certain way, they're going, what are you looking at? Right. You know, you old fuck?

Yeah. So I didn't know. And then I was wrestling around with that before the table read. And then I said to myself, just play that. Just play that. Just play like you don't know anything. Yeah, yeah. What's appropriate.

Yeah. And that's what I did. And then everything revolved around Jay, which I like that kind of acting. Because you can underplay. Not Bundy where you have to overplay. You're driving these scenes. So it's like Ty Burrell and Eric Stone Street. And they have all the big stuff.

Yeah. Great. Yeah. You can have it, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just underplayed it. Yeah, for 11 years. 11 years of, really?

You know. Yeah. Ha, ha, ha. But it seems like everyone really loved each other after a certain point on this. Oh, it was a great time. Yeah. It was once in a, you know, you don't have these kinds of things.

Yeah. Kids are great. Yeah. At the table read, I felt like Butch and Sundance, you know, who are these guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I looked up and I thought, wow, these are children. Yeah, yeah, really doing it. And the writing was so sharp.

Yeah. You know, those guys were, I mean, seriously, I mean, here's what I say about the show. It was well made. Yeah. It was beautifully made. Yeah. And those guys are really good at what they do. People loved it for a long time. Yes.

And then of course they turned on us, you know, it became like too much, you know. What do you mean? Oh, I mean, I think they just got sick of us, you know, like they always do, of course, usually. Yeah. And, um, you know, like we won, what did we win? Four? We won four, and I never won an award. Ensemble Emmys?

Yeah, no one ever won four, right? Yeah. So I wanted to win the fifth, which we didn't win. And then we won five Emmys for best comedy, five years in a row. Yeah. I think we won five. Yeah.

We tied Frasier. Yeah. And going in, I wanted the sixth. You know, I'm like, they're all saying, oh no, it's too much. It's embarrassing. Yeah. We hope we lose.

I said, I don't. I want the record. Yeah. You know, like. You know, like. Like Demsie. Yeah. You know, like, you know, like, Like Demsie. Yeah, like Demsie. Give me it!

And when we lost, and this is so funny, it wasn't heartbreaking. It was not heartbreaking. I think we lost Orange is the New Black, which I said, but this doesn't make sense. It's an hour fucking drama. It's not a comedy. Right.

Anyway, when we lost the Emmy situation, as you know, you sit in the, you sit in seats. Yeah. They're not tables. Huge arena. Huge, right? Yeah. And so then it's over and you have to exit. Yeah.

We didn't know where to go. We had never lost. So you had to go out with the regular people? We had to go out with the people. And we were laughing our asses off. We were saying, we don't know where to go. We're so spoiled. We always were backstage taking the pictures.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The humbling. It was funny. Yeah. It was funny. I mean, I often think about how lucky. Yeah, sure. And I watched a few episodes of the new series, clipped.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was funny because I know so little about sports, and I got all the screeners through the, whatever, what is it on? Is it at FoxLink? And for some reason, they were in order. You know, the first one was at the bottom,

and the fifth one was at the top. So I'm like, I didn't realize it. And I pushed the fifth one. I'm like, I didn't realize it, and I pushed the fifth one, I'm like, wow, we're really in it already. We're over. Yeah. I'm like, how's this gonna work?

And then I watch what I thought was the second one, I'm like, oh, fuck, I did this backwards. So I went back, but as a guy who doesn't really know about sports or wasn't that engaged with the scandal, I mean, right away, I mean, you know, there's attention to it, and there's enough comedy, but it's really a kind of a real tale of a... What was it? Just...

I don't even know how you would categorize it. No, I don't either. But like that character, I thought you did some very interesting stuff, because I mean, you know going in that he probably had dementia from the beginning, or Alzheimer's. Some form of it, yes. Right. So like a lot of the sort of the way you're out front with your thoughts, you know, it

reads almost immediately like it doesn't quite have control of it. Right. Right. I actually did a lot of that. I mean, I kind of did... Donald Sterling. Donald Sterling. And I did... Gina Welsh wrote it. She's a wonderful writer. Yeah. She had worked with David Milch, who's a dear friend of mine.

Genius. How's he doing? Genius. I check in with his wife. He's doing okay. He's hanging in. Yeah. But he was... Believe me, he's a genius. Yeah. And he gave me my best stuff in front of the camera. For which one? Big Apple and John from Cincinnati, which neither one made it.

Yeah. But with Sterling, it was again, you know, on my way over to have lunch with Gina Welsh when I was on the fence and she wanted to have lunch with me to like I was on the fence. Yeah. And she wanted to have lunch with me to like, you know, have me do it. Yeah. And on the way over, I was already writing my exit speech. You know, I'm not doing this. Yeah.

I'm not doing it because I don't really know how to do it. I don't know how. You know this is a theme in your life, right? It is. It is. And I got there and I sat down and we started talking about everything else like we are now,

which was very enjoyable. And at one point through she said, so, you know, I'm really hoping, I said, oh, I'm doing it. I heard myself say it and I thought, what the fuck did you just say? And then I was in, you know, cause I think there's something appealing

about being frightened about something. What were your fears about this guy? I didn't know who he was, you know? I mean, I didn't know where to place my... my intentions and that sort of thing. You know, I mean, I'm not a method guy. But I like to know what I'm after. And then I thought, well, read the script again.

Yeah. You know, and I read the script again and then I think I read it again. And I thought, it's all here. It's all in the script. Well, that's what you're hoping for, isn't it? Yes. Yes. And her prose, the way she wrote, the way Sterling spoke, was foreign to me. So in other words, I would read it and think, I don't talk anywhere like this guy talks. Manic and bombastic? Well, a lot of it was from the tapes.

So it was just a way of phrasing. So it's a real true story. It is. In many ways it is, yes. And I thought, I'm gonna have to learn this verbatim because I would put other words in here, I would change it up. And when I tried that, I think it doesn't sound like the guy at all in my head, it doesn't sound like him, it doesn't speak this way. And so I found a thing where I remembered my college roommate who was at OU and he was,

he played for the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball. His dad was lightweight champ of the world in boxing, hall of fame, Sammy Angot. He talked a little bit like Sterling. He was an Italian, American, Irish guy. Wasn't Jewish, but he sounded a lot like, to me, like Sterling. He was an Italian, American, Irish guy. Wasn't Jewish. But he sounded a lot like to me like Sterling. Is Sterling Jewish? He's Jewish, yeah. His real name was Tokovitz. Okay. Tokovitz.

Yeah. And he was Chicago and then grew up in Burbank. And then I thought, okay, I've heard Sterling. I don't want to imitate him exactly, you know, but it has to be a certain flavor that would that would pay, would service the dialogue. Yeah. Because the dialogue was written that way. Yeah. So once I got that down a little bit, I felt, started to feel comfortable about, you know,

how he, and inadvertently funny. And I also had a scene added that Gina agreed with. I said I need a scene, you probably haven't seen this scene, where probably with the wife, where he's realizing he's gonna have to give the team up, where he talks about changing his name, why that happened, and what he, from being Jewish in that time. Yeah. And, you know, when I was Tokowitz. That was the key.

Never forget. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I needed that, you know, I thought that's important because he was a self-made guy. Yeah. And he was obviously damaged by, you know, when he graduated very high, very bright guy. He graduated law school, was a gymnast. Yeah. Uh, and I, and this is a lot of this is you just put it in, I don't know for sure.

Yeah. But I think, cause he tried to join, he thought he would start working for those Tony law firms, you know, like Fleming, Fleming and Fleming. Yeah. Well, then they go, uh, Tokowitz? Tokowitz? Yeah. No. Yeah.

So, yeah, well, fuck you and him. Exactly. Right. Yeah, I mean, it definitely comes through. And like, in terms of that relationship with V, which is at the core of this scandal, and like, I didn't know anything about the Clippers other than I used to host an evening radio show out of KTLK. And all I knew is I hated the Clippers

because the radio station had a previous agreement with them to air their games live. So a lot of times when we were supposed to do our show at 10, we had to wait for the fucking Clippers show to end. I thought you loved that. We had to wait for the game to end. We were just sitting there, it's like, what's the point of this?

Well, you know, he loved owning the team. Yeah. That's obvious. But the whole idea of like, you know, the idea of if they're losers, they're underdogs and people have, they're going for the hope. Yeah.

That's kind of genius and horrible. In a way it is. Yeah. And he also, look, when they were forcing him to sell and they let her, they gave her a month to field office. And then they were going to take over the NBA. And she got Balmer in, the tech guy. And he offered 2.2.

Billion, yeah. Billion. He paid like 15 million for the team. He didn't want to sell. And you think, what is that? Anybody else would jump at that. Yeah, but the funny thing about Alzheimer's is the last thing to go is pride. Yes. And he liked the power, he liked the team. Yeah. And I really do

think he also liked a lot of the players. Yeah. I don't know if he liked them all. I don't know. But he liked that. He liked it. But the thing is, is like from the very beginning, it seems like there is the racism. Oh, there's racism, of course. Yeah. But a lot of it is like his, then that was part of the scene I needed. Yeah. He, when he said to V, she said,

you're racist, these are, you know, they're, yeah. He said, it's perception. I didn't make this. Yeah. It's the world we live in. Right. It's, world we live in. There's rules. Every schmuck has to obey.

He believed this. At least he told himself this. Obviously he was, I'm not trying to make an excuse for him, I'm just saying he was a product of many people of his age. Well, I think he... Right. And also going into a role, you can't, you're not going to play it as anything other than a person.

No, you can't. But all I really wanted, and I think if you see all six, you're going to say, it's pretty well, it's a good story. And the idea that he had flaws, those flaws, obviously deep flaws, no question. Good talking to you, man. Hey, I didn't even know we'd started until about 20 minutes in. This is a, you know, this reminds me, I'm going to flatter you. Years ago, I was at that hotel on Central Park West. I don't think it's there, but I don't remember the name of it.

They gave me a suite. It was available. I was there to do something. And it had a beautiful view of Central Park in the fall, up pretty high, gorgeous. And I get a call and they said, Dick Cavett wants to interview you. I said, what the fuck are you talking about? Why are you doing this?

Was it the Plaza? It wasn't the Plaza. It was right in the middle. Okay, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. Just about. Yeah, yeah. I don't know why I can't remember it. Anyway, it's quite famous. So, I said, Dick Cavett?

Well, he's got a little skeleton thing in New York, and he still does, they come to you with a camera and a light guy and Dick. Yeah, yeah. I said, why the fuck would Dick Cavett wanna interview me? They didn't say why. You know, they want, you know, you want to meet him? I said, yeah, of course.

I'm a huge fan of Dick Cavett. Yeah. Well, I had watched all of Cavett. Yeah. The only thing I remember about Cavett would be Marlon Brando, Richard Burton, Jane Fonda, you know, I mean, everybody, the most famous people in the world. Yeah.

So he comes in, you know, a little older and it's a, it's a, it's a fly by night little, you know. Yeah. And he's a little more, uh, he's a little looser. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the first thing I said to him.

I said, why the fuck do you want to interview me? I've watched all your shows with Sean Connery, yeah, yeah. Burton, John Huston, you know. He said, well, I think you're an interesting guy. It'll be fun. We'll have a good time. He didn't say, well, you're just like Marlon Brando.

What could he say? So we had a great time, though. And then I told him, I said, you know, I met you once before, but I will preface that by saying there's no way in the world you would remember. Yeah. And he said, thank God.

I mean, thank God. I said, well, you were with Woody Allen, and you were coming out of the ballet, and you came to O'Neill's Balloon for dessert, and I was your waiter. I said, you had lemon tart with coffee and Woody had cheesecake. He said, dear God, because I know if it was Woody, I picked up the check. I said, you did.

Please tell me I gave you a decent tip. I said, you did. Good story. Isn't that kind of sweet, right? Yeah. Well, I wish you the best. Well, I wish you the best. Thanks, buddy. There you go.

Great stories with that guy, right? Clipped is now streaming on Hulu. And it's a good show. I enjoyed it. Hang out for a minute, folks. Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy.

It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions. At Enterprise Mobility, we help businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities. Because if your business is on the road, we want to make sure it's on the road to success. Enterprise Mobility, moving you moves the world.

Hey people, five years ago yesterday, June 10th, 2019, we released an episode that people tell us all the time was one of their favorites. It's episode 1026 with the amazing Mavis Staples. Was that before or after you guys, you know, were working with Martin Luther King. Was that before or after you guys were working with Martin Luther King? Was that before or after?

Oh no, we were working with Martin Luther King already. In 64, we started working with Dr. King in 62, because we were at his church in 1962, and that's when- In Montgomery? In Montgomery. Pops came in one day, he told us, listen y'all, this man Martin is in this town and he has a church here and I would like to go to his 11 o'clock service.

This is a Sunday and we didn't have to work until eight o'clock that night. So he asked us if we wanted to go. We said, yeah, Pops, we want to go. We all went to Dexter Avenue Baptist Church. We were ushered in and seated. Someone let Dr. King know we were in the service, and Dr. King... He knew you already. He knew your music. You guys had hits already? Yeah, we had hits. He said, we're happy to have Pop Staples and his daughters here this

morning, and we hope you enjoy the service. Well, we enjoy the service. After the service, Dr. King would stand at the door and shake the worshipper's hand as they filed out. So everybody filed out, here come Pops, he shook his hand, but Pops stood there and talked to him for a while. And he finally came on out. Me and Yvonne Cleady waiting for him, he finally came on. Get back to the hotel, he called us to his room again.

He said, listen, y'all, I really like this man's message. I like his message. And I think that if he can preach it, we can sing it. Again, that's episode 1026 with Mavis Staples, and it's available for free in whatever podcast app you're using right now. To get every episode of WTF ad free and bonus

episodes twice a week. Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast. Here's, here's a classic. I'm just saying that because I'm not playing it now. It's from the vault. Here's some guitar. Talk to you later.

So So So So Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.