WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1549 - Geezer Butler

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

As bassist and lyricist for Black Sabbath, Geezer Butler has a lifetime of rock and roll stories to tell. From the band’s working class roots in Birmingham to their early days as a traditional blues band to their transformation into the quintessential heavy metal group, Geezer tells Marc how he brought it all together with Ozzy Osbourne, Bill Ward and Tony Iommi, how it eventually fell apart, and how they picked up the pieces. They also talk about Frank Zappa, the Beatles, and the true meaning of Iron Man. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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For more info, visit VizzyHartSeltzer. Find Vizy at a retailer near you. For more info, visit VizyHeartSeltzer.ca. Must be legal drinking age. From your ghost, Lentimos, the Academy Award nominated director of Poor Things and the Favorite comes Kinds of Kindness. A darkly hilarious and unpredictable film that critics are calling mind-bendingly brilliant. Featuring an all-star cast led by Emma Stone,

Jesse Plemons and Willem Dafoe. Kinds of Kindness is a wild ride that will leave audiences discussing the experience long after it's over. Don't miss Kinds of Kindness in select theaters June 28th. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nicks?

What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. WTF. Welcome to it. I'm sure most of you have been here before. Many of you maybe not. Some people are guest specific and that's fine. That's fine. I imagine today's guest brought some people in

I have to assume so Geezer Butler is The guest today. He's the bassist or was the bassist and primary lyricist for Black Sabbath I read his whole book. He wrote a book into the void from birth to Black Sabbath and beyond He wrote a book into the void from birth to black Sabbath and beyond. Tomorrow night. I'm at the Vogue theater here in Vancouver for a sold out show. Then on Saturday, I'm in Seattle at the more theater for an almost sold out show. I don't know where that's at actually.

And I'll be in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto theater on Friday, September 30th. Then I'm in Phoenix at the Orpheum theater on Saturday, September 21st. You can go to WTF pod.com for the tickets to all the things coming up. Then I'm in Phoenix at the Orpheum Theater on Saturday, September 21st. You can go to WTFpod.com for the tickets to all the things coming up. So when I was home, also I went to the comedy store, of course, to check in, dip my foot back in the water, in the water.

No, just, you know, it's part of my life. It's part of the social fabric of my existence. So I went over there and hadn't been there in a week or two, or a week or however long it's been. He just wanna have a good set, man. You know, I got these two theater dates coming up, the Vogue and the Moore, and you know, I'm feeling a little rusty,

cause I got out of the routine of doing the long shows. And you know, I go to the comedy store, you know, see some friends see some people doing a spot in the main room it's a little tight I'm a little tight they were fine I resented them but you know that's my nature and I got up there and it was it was going all right I was I sometimes man anyway, I'm in the middle of my set, and some guy, stage right, he just says, Maren, I'm like, what? He's like, there's someone having a seizure over there.

And I'm like, what is happening? And this woman had gone down. She was on the ground. There was a few people around her. It didn't look like a seizure, but I didn't know how to read it. And she had just fainted, I think, but it was like one of those moments where I'm like, oh, that's why the jokes weren't landing, that last one.

Kidding. It's one of those moments on stage where you have to stay up there, you have to manage the situation. I'm like, is there, I did the classic, is there a doctor in the house? Which is kind of hacky, but I think in those moments it's okay to use that one.

And can we get some security, can we get, can we get some help over here? And there were people around her and she was, you know, kind of just her, the man that she was with was there and a couple other people and the door guy eventually came and, but she was awake she was conscious and not in a seizure it looked like she had just you know kind of fainted and I was you know I tried to make a couple jokes that they didn't really land and

one of them honestly I thought was pretty solid because when it started to resolve itself I can't leave the stage I've got to handle the situation and kind of, you know, make it as, it's not a matter of making it funny, but it's just a matter of, you know, holding the space until the emergency is over. But they were like, do you want to go outside? And I was like, you should go get some air. And she's like, no, I'm fine.

I'm just gonna, I just want, I'm good. I'm just going to, I just want to, I'm good. I'm just going to sit and, you know, and I saw in her eyes that she was, you know, kind of a pulling it back together. And I said, welcome back. And, uh, I thought that was funny. It didn't, it didn't really land. I guess, you know, it was too soon. It was literally still happening.

So, but she was okay. She was okay. It was just one of those situations. but she was okay, she was okay. It was just one of those situations and then I went back to do my set and so that set wasn't great, but I'm glad she was okay. And then I went down the hall and did another one and blew off some steam, tried a couple new bits, they didn't work, but I felt loose

because I'd already kind of been through it. I'd managed a mild emergency situation, I'd eaten some shit and I was ready to blow off steam. If I can just get into that zone more often, like I used to, because I was always needing to blow off steam. But yeah, I just gotta get into the present, man. Get into the present.

The woman going down, that brought me into the present, but it was a serious situation. All right. So look, Geezer Butler, when I have an aversion to talking to a musician, it's never because I don't like them necessarily. It's because I don't really feel like I know enough about them. And to be honest, there's so much music that I came to way late to the party. But I've said before that I don't really think

there's such a thing as late to the party anymore because everything is happening all the time, everything's available to you. You can get involved with whatever you want. The work is there. Enjoy the work whenever. Just because you missed it when it happened doesn't mean you're late to the party.

And I think I've been late to the party since the beginning of my music education or my interest in music or my connecting with music. I mean, by the time I was in high school, it was the mid 70s. And most of these bands that have become the heavy metal rock pantheon, we're all sort of cranking it out

in the late 60s to early 70s. So their first three or four records, it was already done. I mean, by the time I was in high school, it was probably, Dio was probably singing. So this music exists, but it exists in this sort of time vacuum. When I was coming alive in high school, I guess in the mid 70s, there was a lot going on with music,

but a lot of the people and a lot of the bands that were powerful and big were old bands. There was a lot of weirdness going on because disco was sort of not on its way out. It had done its thing and then it kind of broke apart and some of the punk movement and new wave music, and the new wave stuff was pushing back on disco. There was a lot of stuff going on in England that none of us knew about. You know, it was, it was really just ZZ Top, Led Zeppelin, Ted Nugent. There was a few Sabbath guys and there was a few guys that were on the cutting edge of what was going on with punk.

There was some new wave stuff, some skinny ties, a lot of buttons, a lot of stuff coming back around I mean, I who did I see I saw a lot of concerts But I don't know it really depends who you were hanging out with my buddy Dave was a deep purple guy loved Richie Blackmore. My buddy Chris was sort of the more artsy You know, I don't know more off the grid guy. He was like into Zappa the Kinks He's the first guy that turned us on to the cars All that was stuff was happening when I was in high school and I was hanging out with the guy the grid guy. He was like into Zappa, the Kinks. He's the first guy that turned us onto the cars. All that stuff was happening when I was in high school.

And I was hanging out with the guy, the older guy who worked at the record store next door, who was turning me on to Brian Eno, Fred Frith, the residents, David Bowie. I had a box of records that I had gotten from the record store. They were primarily in R&B shops, so I got a lot of records. That must have been in the mid-70s.

It was like Tom Waits, Nighthawks at the Diner, Elvis Costello's first record, George Thorogood. It was a random bunch of stuff that kind of defined my musical sort of interests. But I don't remember ever enjoying a concert as much as I did when I drove out to the Golden Inn, which was a biker bar between Abukirke and Santa Fe, which later burned down, to see the fabulous Thunderbirds.

I mean, that must have been towards the end of high school. I don't know when that album, I just, you know, I put on, there was a point there where I was buying vintage suits and I had the shark skin, I had the shiny suit, swept my hair up, went out there and listened to Jimmy Vaughn and the fellas. And it's just a total mix of influences and people I was around.

I do remember when Zeppelin One came out, because it was weird. It was around the same time as the first Dire Straits album came out, wasn't it? And both of those were kind of like, what is happening here? But when Van Halen One came out, that just changed the fabric of everything. All this to say is that I wasn't that big of a follower ever and it seems to me that metal in general is a type of music that has truly loyal die-hard fans that are so immersed in it. I don't know where my adolescent male energy was going at that point. I think it was a little, you know, there was a it was a little fragmented bit of a spectrum,

a lot of interest, but I was never the type of person. And look, I love the Stones, but even that it's it's limited. I had that Stones, what was that double greatest hits album with the Castle on the cover. I had that stuff, but I didn't have this loyalty. The music of a particular band was never my sort of outlet for anger, frustration, discomfort, fury. I mean, I could listen to music and feel relieved and get off on it, but it seems like the type of fan that locks into metal or into the beginnings of metal. It's just a very it's a specific guy and You got to be that guy to really kind of be deep in it and I was never that guy I don't think I really grew to appreciate Sabbath until I was in my 40s all this to say is

that you know dealing with you know geezer is like I think most of my best interviews with musicians are ones that I'm not coming to it as a total fanboy but at least you know as somebody who has somewhat of an understanding of why the music is good and I had that and That's enough and for geezer. I read the an understanding of why the music is good. And I had that, and that's enough. And for Geezer, I read the book as well, and the story is spectacular. It's just like, it's one of these rock stories. It's just like, how the fuck did these guys stay alive?

How did they stay determined to continue to make it when they came up in the UK, and the touring, and the insanity, and Ozzy being insane and Tony with his fingers and his like, you know, power trip. But when you're talking with a guy who really lived that, you're just sitting there going like, how the fuck are you still alive? What is the magic? Can you imagine the type of unity you have to have to play the size and the type of gigs these guys are playing without just breaking apart, which arguably, Ozzy, they've all, I think, broken apart a bit, but they've re-contracted.

They've brought it back together. But it was a great story, and it was certainly exciting in a way to sort of hear it firsthand after reading the book. Gieser's a very nice guy, And it was certainly exciting in a way to sort of hear it firsthand, you know, after reading the book, uh, geezers, a very nice guy, you know, he's a, been a vegetarian for years. The book is called into the void from birth to black Sabbath and beyond. It's out in paperback and, uh, and we're gonna,

we're gonna get into that story a bit right now with geezer Butler. Wendy's small frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. We're going to get into that story a bit right now with Gieser Butler. and your wallet. Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help, we see someone struggling with addiction. Our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help or get

help at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the Government of Canada. So I'll tell you man, I read the whole book. Oh good. The whole thing. Great. It's very honest, real feelings.

Feels like you wrote the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't sit there and tell the story to somebody else. The only thing that somebody else did was like what gigs we did when. Oh, you had to be reminded? Yeah. The only thing that somebody else did was like, what gigs we did when. Oh, you had to be reminded? Yeah, they like,

so I could remember what gigs we did. And what dates. And what album, when the albums came out, what numbers they got to and that kind of thing. Just basic research. Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was great. I think it's amazing you're all still alive.

I mean, it's uh, it's amazing. Uh, you're all still alive I mean, it's really fucking amazing even with Ozzy being you know as You know, he's a little compromised but still it's amazing. He's alive and still still alive. Yeah, he's still alive Wow Tom where's Tony? He's still lives in England. Yeah. But he had to get over cancer. Yeah, yeah. But he's all right? Yeah. Oh my God.

Now, do you stay in touch with everybody? Occasionally. I haven't really, Bill's not on email and I don't use the phone. So I message you Ozzy all the time. He's here, right? Yeah. And email Yeah. Yeah. And email Tony. Yeah.

That's about it. I can't believe it. What do you think? And you're pretty healthy? Yeah, apart from the allergies. Yeah. Yeah. And I got tinnitus.

Of course. How are you not going to have that? Yeah. I think that every musician of any generation, if they tour enough, they're going to get that. Yeah. Especially us. He's standing in front of that bass amp. of any generation if they tour enough they're gonna get that yeah yeah especially us yeah he's standing in front of that bass amp because I could never use the in ears yeah just use in ears no what are they earplugs yeah you put like

all the monitors yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah but then there's nothing coming out behind you it's all like yeah through monitor desk you don't feel it. No, and I like to really feel it So I have my back. I think my base is like 8,000 watts or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what kind are you playing now? I'm you Lakeland. Okay, I can base what you went through you went through the fenders and you have BC rich for a while Yeah, I still like the fanenders. I collect old fenders. The P bases? Yeah. Yeah.

And jazz. Yeah, the jazz bases. Yeah. What do you think is it, like, I've been a vegan for about a year and a half. And when I read some of the stories of the book of you trying to eat, like in the 60s and 70s, cause you've been a vegan your whole life,

it just sounded fucking terrible. I don't even know how you lived. That is horrendous. I mean, I used to look about that thing. Just because you wouldn't, you just ate potatoes or whatever. Well, at one point, the pig food, yeah, we were staying next to a pig farm

and we used to grow these turnips to give to the pigs. Yeah. And I was absolutely starving. So I got over, got over the hedge, just dug up these turnips. Didn't even cook them? No. Get them raw.

Cause you're literally starving. Yeah. And you're, are you like, but now when did you learn how to balance it? Because there's a trick to it being a vegan. So you get everything you need, right? Yeah, I'm never really, uh now. It's easy because you got different kinds of oat milk Yeah, and milk and fake meats all the fake meats you can think of do you take vitamin b12?

Yeah, yeah, because you have to write because you can't get it anywhere else. Yeah. Yeah, usually the injections of it Oh really? Yeah, how often I think once a month I have the injections. Oh that's a good idea. And that's all you need? Yeah, I'm going to take you know occasional vitamins. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I have to figure because I mean it seems like you're probably the healthiest out of the crew. Yeah. That had something to do with the vegan thing you could be yeah, yeah, maybe just genetics I Don't think so because I mean three sisters just like died in the past three years so yeah, but they weren't vegans Oh, they were they weren't no no, but I just like I've always gotten kind of fascinated with like What you grew up you all grew up near each other?

Yeah in Aston in Birmingham just like a little part of Birmingham. And that was like, what was it like there? Like, was it, was it working class? Kind of ultra working class. Yeah. Yeah, there was no, nobody had cars or anything like that. Yeah. And you go to the local school. Right. If you were Catholic, you went to the Catholic school. If you're Protestant,

you went to the Protestant school. And your're Protestant, you went to the Protestant school. And your family was pretty Catholic. Yeah, they were all from Dublin. Yeah. But it was tense, right, with Irish and English at that time or after? Not so much Irish, because it was an immigrant area, so there was hardly any English people. Didn't really see many until I went to secondary school. Yeah. And the most tense was when the Jamaicans

moved in and the Pakistanis and Indians. And, um, there used to be quite a lot of fight in between the Irish and the black people. Sure. Well, I find it interesting because I haven't talked to that many people. Cause I don't know Britain that well, but I've talked to guys who grew up just, you know, after the war, you know grew up just you know after the war you know I talked to Daltrey

You know and there was like I don't think people really realized just how devastated England was Yeah, it's still bombed out where where I was born. Yeah, like total bill whole buildings gone Yeah, and it was like a playground. That's where we used to go and play on the building site Yeah, bomb building sites, but you weren't oh you weren't alive yet with the bombing no No, but your dad and everybody else was dad. Yeah, he was a fire auxiliary fireman during the war she was too old for the army Yeah, and I mean my mom had five little babies to look after while she was being bombed. Yeah. So you were born already? I was born in 1949, like four years after.

But you had the older siblings in the house? Yeah. They were, they had to leave Aston because all the factories were in where we were born, in Birmingham. It's like all the, the airplanes were made there. Oh, so they bombed it. Tanks, all the engines for the, Birmingham was a big gun manufacturer in the city as well. So it got bombed to death.

Yeah. And my sisters and brothers had to move out to the country on their own. Yeah. Do you think that growing up post-war like that and just seeing it like even before the late 60s had some sort of impact on the way you saw the world? Absolutely, yeah. Because, I mean, my brothers were in the army. They were called for national service. And my other brother was a complete Hitler fanatic.

It's sort of weird how that happens. My other brother was a complete Hitler fanatic. It's sort of weird how that happens. I mean, I'm a Jewish guy and I remember when I was a kid, you get fascinated with him for some reason. He was, absolutely. He used to wear SS uniforms. He just liked it. He wasn't a Nazi, but he just thought it was... Oh, yeah. He went out and formed, was one of the first members of the British national party. Oh, so he was. He was, he had believed in it. Swastika tattoo.

Oh my God. The whole thing. And we all thought he was nuts. How long did he stick with that? When my dad made him go back to the tattooist and have his swastika changed to a bunch of roses. Did that really work? It seemed to.

And then he was like incredibly racist. So as where we were living in Aston, as it became more black and Pakistan, more Pakistanis and Jamaicans moved in, he said, I'm not staying here with these people. And he moved out to the country. Did he stay racist? I don't know. I haven't seen him for God knows how many years. He's still around though? I don't know. Nobody knows where he went.

Really? Yeah, we've tried to get in touch with him, but... Just disappeared? Yeah. Do you have any siblings left other than him? I've got one brother left. Oh yeah. And he's in a got one brother left. Oh, yeah. And he's in a care home in England. Oh, okay. So, what fascinates me about England at that time is

that, or a little later, I only talked to one guy, one other person, about Skiffle. And that, like, and that was a whole new thing to me. Like, I think it was Daltrey He was telling me about it, but that was a thing, huh? Absolutely. Yeah Lonnie Donoghue was the big Name. Yeah, that's good. And it was sort of like jug band music Yeah, and the bass player had like this t-chest Yeah, a broom handle on a piece of string and that was how he played bass and it worked. Yeah Yeah, and that's that's what gave me inspiration to make my own guitar out of a plank of wood.

You made a guitar that worked? Didn't work, no. No. It just looked to me like a guitar. To everybody else, it was a plank of wood with a stick on the end. And tell me about these visions you had. How old were you? Tell me about these visions you had.

How old were you? Probably started when I was about five. Well, the whole thing started because we used to go to Dublin, stay at my grandma's house every other year. My dad used to save up his money to take us over there. And this, it was like the strange feeling in the house. And this one time I could hear something creaking on the stairs. Me and my sister ran out and we just saw the apparition just like gliding down the stairs. And it just freaked us out.

Yeah. So you still have a little, do you still have a part of your brain that believes? Absolutely, yeah. Oh yeah? And the time when I was dreaming about me and Tony getting stuck in a lift. Oh, that was, yeah, that was a good one, yeah. Yeah, and the lift, in the dream,

we got in the lift, stopped halfway, and then we tried to open the door, and then the lift just dropped. Yeah. Before before we were gonna hit the bottom I woke up and then we were going to a gig and I told Tony about it. We got in the lift, the elevator, halfway down it stopped and we both went, oh no, this is it. And it just started up again. Well thank God. But what about the visions of yourself in the future? Oh, yeah, yeah. I used to be in the same bedroom as my dad,

because there was like nine of us in this tiny little house. And there was this old fireplace, a Victorian house, 1873 it was built, and there was this old fireplace. And this one night, I felt this felt this like an orb above my head and I looked into this orb and it was sort of like a crystal bulk kind of thing and I saw this stage and this guy that was playing guitar and I always remember he had silver boots on and I was, what the hell is this? Cause it's, there's nice things like rock and roll back then.

Right. And, um, and the, this, oh, like sort of disappeared, went up back in the chimney. Yeah. And I didn't think anything of it until I told me mom and dad about it. And it's just a nightmare that you were having. And then of course it came true. You had silver boots? Yeah.

So you were there and awake and alive and conscious when rock and roll started, really? Yeah. I mean Elvis and Eddie Cochran. And who did you like, when did you know you were going to play music? As soon as the Beatles came out. It you like, when did you know you were going to play music? As soon as the Beatles came out. It was like, I always remember one night, because rock and roll or pop music wasn't played on the radio in England. It was all this horrible junk that they used to play.

Yeah. And so the only way you could listen to pop music was tune into Radio Luxembourg, which is a British station, but you couldn't have a British radio station playing pop music in England, so they had to move out to Europe. And they used to play all those pop music. And then this one night I was listening to it and the Beatles came on and I was just like, what the hell is this? And that was it. Pete Slauson Right away, you could feel that. Chris Yeah.

Pete Slauson It was like, this is what I want to do. Pete Slauson But you didn't know how to go about it? Chris Well, I was 11 at the time? Yeah, so when did you get when did you get an instrument? It just so happened that there was a kid at the school or I was going to you had this acoustic guitar with two strings on it and I says how much you want for your guitar and he said 10 shillings, which is like 50 cents or something. Yeah.

75 cents. And of course, I didn't have 75 cents. So I told my brother about it. And he says, yeah, here's the money for it. Yeah. So I bought it. And I taught myself all the Beatles songs on these two strings. Yeah.

Because I couldn't make chords because there wasn't enough strings. And you couldn't afford strings? Nope. And eventually I got really good on it, and my brother used to bring his friends in to watch me play the Beatles songs on two strings. And they'd go, oh, he's great. So my other brother gave me the money to get a proper six-string guitar. And from then on, I started learning chords and stuff.

But the music was pretty much just the pop music. Oh yeah, back then, yeah. Yeah, and when does it like, because what I like about England is that there are periods in the music history where everyone's sort of around. John Mayall and Fleetwood Mac and the bands from the generation before you, and you could see them. You could go see them perform. Yeah, well, I went to see the Beatles, and I went to see the Stones.

You saw the Beatles? Yeah. Was it mind-blowing? You couldn't hear them, because of all the screaming girls. It was that much, huh? Oh, it was ridiculous. Yeah.

And I only got the ticket, because the mother of this girl that I was seeing was the manager of the place where they were playing. So she got me this ticket for free. But it didn't matter, you couldn't hear them? Couldn't hear them, but it was just like you're in the presence of the Beatles and I was a Beatle fanatic. Yeah, and to see the effect they had must have been something. It's incredible.

Must have been crazy. And you saw the Stones? Saw the Stones, they were on tour with Ike and Tina Turner. Oh yeah. And nobody knew anything about Ike and Tina Turner. Yeah. She came out and it was like, what the hell? Yeah. It was incredible.

I bet, the whole review. Yeah, the whole thing, Ike there, the Ikeettes, dancing, nobody's ever seen anything like that before. Did they give the Stones a run for their money? Oh, absolutely, yeah. And how were the Stones at that point? Great. They were sort of vying for my favorite band at the time.

It was like, I was like, the Beatles one week and then the Stones the next week. And was it mid-60s? Yeah, 65. Did you see Peter Green? Yeah, with Fleetwood Mac originally. That must, I think he's amazing. He is, well I knew Christine Perfect.

Oh yeah, who became Christine McVie? Yeah, and I went to see Fleetwood Mac with the original Peter Green. Because she was married to McVie at the time? Yeah, but I didn't know that. We were arguing about, I was saying Eric Clapton's the best guitarist. Yeah. And she'd be saying, no, Peter Green's the best guitarist. Oh, she thought that. I think he was better. I think Peter was better. More soulful, I think. Yeah, and definitely more like, you know, his

version, because you saw Duster Bennett too, right? Yeah, yeah. That song Jumping at Shadows, you know, that Peter covered was like crazy. In the live, it was live somewhere in America, they have the recording of it. I'm just kind of fascinated with that guy, because you get kind of fascinated with guys who lose their minds, but it seems like you were surrounded by them. It was really, it was quite sad the way he went, Peter Green, because he lost his mind literally, and wouldn't have anything to do then, you roll to it. And he became a grave digger. And then somebody found him, I thought, in an institution or somewhere, all medicated, and resurrected him. They got together a few, not like, but well, about 10 years ago or something.

Yeah. And of course he was on the way out by them. Yeah. Yeah. And you can't recapture what, whatever you had at the beginning. Nah. Yeah. So when does, uh, did you see Hendrix too?

Yeah. Saw Hendrix three times. Was that amazing? First time was incredible. It was just like, what the? Was that amazing? First time was incredible. It was just like, what the? Then the last time, it took about half an hour to tune up. Oh, really?

Everybody's going, what's going on? Miles out of tune, he's playing. But it was still like, what's Jimmy Hendrix? Yeah. So when do you guys start playing together? We started in 1968. And it was like, it was a straight up blues band? Yeah. Yeah. That's just what people did. Yeah. It was the, because John Mayall was like massive at the time with Eric Clapton.

Yeah. And so everybody sort of going in that direction. And who'd you meet first? Out of what? The band? The band, yeah. Ozzy? Yeah. I love... There's a couple of moments in the book that so perfectly kind of capture his insanity. I mean, I think it's like you had seen him around town.

Yeah, well I used to pass his school on the way to Catholic school. There was a Protestant school, wherever he was. Yeah. You know, you just walk to school. Yeah. From when you were five, you just, yeah. And it was always like the battle

between the Catholics and the Protestants. So you'd walk past their school and you have to scrap your way to your school. Right. And then eventually, Ozzy lived right across the, his house is right across the road from the church I used to go to. Oh really? Yeah.

And eventually I saw it, cause when he grew older he became like a mod, that's what we used to call them. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Mods and rockers. Yeah. And they used to have all these all night gigs in Birmingham at the time. Yeah. And you go there, you take loads of black bombers and stuff.

Speed. Yeah. And stay up all night. And then it finished like about five in the morning. Yeah. And I'd walk home and on the other side of the road But there Ozzy was walking home just like Waiver each other, but he wasn't in a band yet, right?

I don't think so. No, no, and how do you how do you end up getting him to play music with you? Well, we were looking I was in a band called the rare breed Yeah form that with the the kid that I went to school with. Yeah. The singer at the time, he got a job on this cruiser to Australia, like singing. They actually paid him money. Right.

And it was like, well, I didn't get, mm. And so we were looking for a singer for the band, and we went to the music shop in Birmingham, and there was this, it's like where musicians used to advertise, and I saw this note saying, Ozzy Zig needs a gig. Call, put his address on, which is, and I went, oh, that's right around the corner

from where I live. So I went round to his house, and of course he wasn't in, but his sister opened the door and says, I'm answering the advert that Ozzy, Ozzy Zieg put in. And I told him where I lived. Yeah. Then later that night there was a knock on the door. My brother got up to open the door and he came in and he went,

hey, there's something at the door for you. I'm like, what do you mean there's something? He says, go and have a look. And I went to the door, opened the door and there was Ozzy with skinhead, with a shoe over his shoulder on his, oh no, a chimney brush over his shoulder, a sneaker on a dog lead, no shoes on and his dad's work gown. I heard you're looking for a singer. Yeah.

I said, what kind of stuff do you do? And he says, whatever you want to do. And he says, but I've got my own PA system. I went, OK, you're in. That was it. And then we did... Did you think he was a skinhead at first? Yeah, he says, I'll grow my hair, don't worry.

So we did like two or three gigs and it was... We used to get thrown off everywhere we were playing. Why? It must have been crap. And the final gig, this guy comes up up he goes to Ozzy, get off here's five pound now piss off. And Ozzy went you can stick it up your ass the five pound. I went I'll have the five pound I'm not gonna pay the gas for the truck. So then we we left that band and we both we were looking around for other guitarists.

Yeah. Oh no, a drummer at the time. Ozzy had got his friend who was a slide guitar player. So we were going to find, form a band with the slide guitar player. Yeah. And this saxophonist. What happened? So.

A sax guy. Meanwhile, Tony and Bill were in a band up in the north of England. They got busted for drugs, so they had to come back to Birmingham. Ozzy says, I know a guy that I used to go to school with called Tony Iommi. He's just been done for drugs. Yeah. But I think he knows a drummer. I think he's back. So we went around to Tony's house, which is literally

three streets away. Yeah. We said to Tony, is Bill Ward there? Is that your drummer? And he went, yeah, he's here at the shop right now. So Bill came out. What kind of shop? His mom had like a

pop and sweets and that kind of stuff, bread and so Bill came out and said well I'll join your band but Tony's got to come with me. He says well we've already got a guitar. He said well he's got to come with me and that's it. Yeah. So he said okay we'll try that and then that's the way we started. That's crazy. So you had Bill and Tony and you and Ozzy, a slide guitarist and a saxophone player. The saxophone player could only play take five.

But he played it really good. So when I first seen him, what does he do? Is he any good? And he'd do like a great rendition of Take Fight. Yeah. But we didn't know that's the only thing he could play. Yeah. So how did you get rid of those guys?

The first gig, because Tony and Bill, we went, the very first gig was back up in Carlisle where Tony and Bill had been busted, but they'd built up quite a following up there. Oh, they did? Yeah. had been busted but they'd built up quite a following up there. Oh they did? Yeah so we went up there in the bloody van took ages to get up there and we did the gig and people going BOO! to me and Ozzy in the sax player and was's like, you're crap get off! But you're good to Tony and Bill.

So at the end of the gig, finish, and all these like Tony and Bill's fans come to me, you're crap and that singer's crap and that sax player's crap, but Tony and Bill are good so I think you should just all piss off." Yeah. So, great. And as we were loading the van up, these two bloody great big Irish blokes came up, started accusing us of trying to get off with their girlfriends. And we said, you haven't got any girlfriends? Well, we might have. Yeah.

So he started trying to beat us all up. So the police came with this German shepherd dog, canine thing. The guy strangles the dog. I think it was like three police cars there, get these two guys in the car, take them to jail. And he broke out of jail. And that was our first show. What did he do when he got out of jail? Come working for you? No, never seen him again. Yeah, you do get into a lot of fights. Yeah.

You were all pretty fighty. Well, there was a lot of skinheads around when we were doing the... In England, in the mid-60ies, it was mods and rockers. The mods would like the who followed the route and the rockers will like follow the blues and male cream and that thing. So that became skinheads against hippies. And then the hippies became greasers. That's what they used to call us. Some of the gigs, you'd have all the skinheads

waiting for us outside. And they were just gangs? They didn't have any particular, it was just based on music? Based on the length of your hair. Oh, that was it. If you had long hair, they'd kick hell out of you. Yeah, so you had to fight.

Oh yeah. And Tony liked to fight. Tony loved to fight, yeah. Yeah. But that sound, like, you know, And Tony liked to fight. Tony loved to fight. Yeah. But that sound, like, you know, the evolution of like the Sabbath sound had so much to do with the fact that his fingers were fucked up, right? Absolutely. And to this day, I just do not know how he does it. I really don't. Does it cause him pain every time he plays? No, because he wears these thimbles that look like,

eventually when he had enough money, he had like proper, like thimbles that look like fingers put on his, but I just can't, I still can't understand how he could feel the strings. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, it's incredible. So when do you guys start like playing a Sabbath? We turned up, we were called Polka Talk for our first gig.

Polka. Polka Talk is the name of an Indian sari shop. Okay. Because we were going to our first gig and we went, we haven't got a name. Right. Yeah. So we passed this Indian sari shop

and Ozzy went, oh look, Polka Talk, let's call ourselves Polka Talk Blues Band. Yeah. So that's what we did. We got to, did the first gig and we went, gotta come up with a better name. And you were playing just blues covers? Yeah. Yeah. All blues covers.

And some cream. Oh yeah. And what's his name? Ainsley Dunbar stuff. Okay. All the established British blues bands were playing some of their stuff. Robert John's and that kind of stuff.

So we said we've got to come up with a better name and polka talk blues band. And Bill says, what about Earth? And we liked that. So we went with that. And then mid-69, we turn up at this gig and it's all like like a wedding reception yeah all the women had nice dresses on the blokes had suits yeah that's weird crowd for us yeah so we went on played

the first song they're like going they all got up to dance and all like looking at us as if we're nuts. So second song and this guy comes up, no stop stop stop. Tamara says you're not playing your single. I mean what sing we haven't got a single out. And he went you know you're single, the Earth single. And it was a totally different band. Another band called Earth. Yeah, so on the way home, they said, what can we call the band? I said, well, we just wrote that song called Black Sabbath. Let's just go with that.

What was the, where'd you find that title for that? There was a horror film called Black Sabbath. Oh, okay. It was in 19, I think it was 1964. Yeah. And I was too young to see, because you had to be 16 to go and see horror films. Right.

And my brother loved it. He said, I just seen a great film called Black Cyber, and it stuck in my mind. Yeah. And later I just thought, that would be a great name for a band. Yeah, did you ever see the movie? Eventually, yeah.

Yeah. It's terrible. Yeah. I think what's interesting too, movie? Eventually, yeah. Yeah. It's terrible. I think what's interesting too, like in going over this stuff is that your eventual sort of kind of resentment of prog rockers, a lot of them, is sort of like, what's interesting is that, you know, I think what changed your sound and what began to define the Sabbath sound was actually a King Crimson show, right? Yeah.

I went to see, I really liked King Crimson. I went to see them live. And they did a version of Holtz the Planet Suite and they played Mars. Yeah. It was like, and I was playing on my bass the next day when we were rehearsing. You went and bought the record? Oh yeah, I loved the album. Yeah.

That was like my favorite music at the time. I was playing the bass, I was trying to play Mars on the bass, and Tony went, he just kind of went with the riff for Black Sabbath because it sounded similar. But there's also that construction, that sort of thing that happens in that music,

what do you call them, tri-something? A tritone. Right, and that's a big shift away from blues. Absolutely, yeah. The whole thing started when Tony got joined Jethro Tull for one gig. And he came back and said, look, we've got to start writing our own music,

otherwise we're just never going to get anywhere. We'll just all be playing like blues music for the rest of our lives in pubs. Yeah. And then when blues goes out of fashion, that's it. Yeah. Won't be doing anything. So we've got to come up with our own sound. Yeah.

And Black Sabbath is the first, what second song, Wicked World was the first song, Black Sabbath was the second. And that's where you got the, you realized you were onto something sound-wise. Yeah, I always remember it. We used to play this little pub in, just outside Birmingham. Yeah.

And we'd done our set. Yeah. And the crowd were like, just like indifferent. They'd seen us a million times. Right. And we said, let's play that song that we just wrote today, and it was just Black Sabbath. Yeah.

We played it and the place just went wild. Because they'd never heard anything like it? No. And we went, that's it. We figured it out. And it was different too, because like hard rock was sort of happening, right? Zeppelin was massive at the time. Did you like him?

Yeah, I love Zapplin, so local as well. Yeah. Plantin Bonham. Yeah, I mean, and Bonham was kind of crazy on the drums. Yeah, oh yeah, we could hear, he used to play the, the play The All Nighters that I used to go to. Oh, he did?

Him and Plant with, what were they called? I can't remember what his first band was called, but you could hear Bonham, you'd get off the bus a mile away, you could hear him drumming. Yeah. Yeah. And you got to know him, right?

Yeah, he became, he was Tony's best man at Tony's wedding. Oh, really? And he used to come around to my house, I went around to his house this one time. Because he was great when he was straight, he was like the worst person on earth when he was drunk. Oh really? But I went around to his house and he was actually straight and he says that, I just got this great drum riff that I put down when we're doing this new album and it is that when the levy breaks. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean like and that was so their first album was big. Massive. Zepper One. Massive. But it's still like it's not I guess they kind of broke it open but nobody sounded like you. We were more raw I think.

Yeah. Because they were established session more Jimmy Page's and John Paul Jones established session musicians. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, they structure it more. Right, but you guys were just winging it. You had to figure it out for yourself. I guess there's something to that, to figuring it all out for yourself. Then you're uniquely you.

Absolutely. I mean, none of us ever went to college or anything like that, music college or whatever. Yeah, yeah, sure. We just taught ourselves. But you went, did you go to college or anything like that, music college. Yeah, yeah, sure. We just taught ourselves. But you went, did you go to college? I went to like a day college, you know, twice a week. Right. And I never turned up because it was a bus ride

and I was terrible at getting up in the morning. So I missed all the day ones. But you did, like you had some kind of thing in your head, because you did a lot of the songs and they were all kind of, you know, sort of literary and referenced in... Well, I used to really like English literature and English language. Yeah. And for some reason. Yeah. And I was good at it. So that's when it came to writing lyrics, it was up

to me to write the lyrics. And when did this sort of idea, because I noticed like when you read the book that you never saw yourself as like the initially, when did you sort of realize or accept that you guys invented something? Well, they kept calling us heavy metal, and it was a derogatory term at the time. From a critic? Yeah. I always remember we were in America at the time, and I think we'd done two gigs in the same city.

And we were looking at the reviews the next day, and this guy said, this isn't music, it just sounds like a load of heavy metal being smashed together and I thought great that's nice yeah and by the time we got back to England the papers the music papers over there had picked up on the heavy metal thing yeah so the start started classing our music as heavy metal derogatory at the time, but then... After the first album or the second album? I think it was probably the second album. Yeah, and then it became a thing.

Yeah, we hated it. We always wanted to be known as a heavy rock band. Hard rock. Yeah, hard rock band. Yeah, I mean, those conversations still happen. You know, the difference between hard rock and heavy metal. Yeah, Ozzy has never, ever... He won't call the difference between hard rock and heavy metal. Yeah, Ozzy is never ever. He won't call it heavy metal.

Call it heavy metal. Why does it bother him so much? Because of the derogatory nature. Oh, it's stuck with him. Yeah. Yeah, those Ozzy stories. The other moment in the book where, you know, he's just wearing a faucet around his neck.

Yeah, when we played the marquee, which is the most biggest, most prestigious club in in London, England at the time. Yeah. And the guy that owned it John G. Yeah. It was like a like everything had to be perfect for him. Yeah. And Alvin Lee from 10 years after. Yeah. He loved he liked 10 years after he loved, he liked 10 years after that was his favorite, like modern band. Yeah. I'm sure he was a big jazz bloke. Yeah.

So I openly convinced him to give us a go at the marquee club. Yeah. And he says, but try and dress up a bit. Like you can't wear what you're wearing now. Cause he's really weird about things like that. So we get to the club. Well, I go in first because I was fairly fashionable. Yeah.

Then Tony and Bill, and he's like going, what's, what are you dressed as? And then Ozzie comes in with a pajama jacket on and the top of a faucet around his neck. And he went absolutely mental for John G. How was the gig? It was great. Yeah? Yeah, gig was great. But it's just like, it just seems like Ozzy's just got this thing where, you know, he's just like that, huh?

Yeah, well that time in Dem, when we had our first gig in Europe, and we had our clothes and stuff to take. Ozzy comes out with one shirt on a coat hanger for six weeks. But you guys didn't, I mean, I know there's a, in the story, there was a period there where you were sort of trying to be within the hippie thing, but it didn't, you know, it seems like what launched the whole tone of Sabbath was, you know, against that in terms of like looking at the realities of what you grew up in. Yeah, I mean, the Vietnam War was massive at the time. And we were seeing things, things in England

were coming out about what America was doing that were never shown in America. Yeah. So it was sort of, we were seeing the other side of it kind of thing. Yeah. And when it came to writing, my brothers had been in the army, my dad had been in the army for 12 years.

Yeah. And we just didn't want to be dragged into the Vietnam War. My brothers had been in the Army, my dad had been in the Army for 12 years. We just didn't want to be dragged into the Vietnam War, so a lot of the lyrics were against war. And that like on the second record? Yeah, War Pigs. You talked to somebody who had been in Vietnam, right? We used to play, when we were playing in Germany, there was a big American Army base and what it was, when they'd finished, when the soldiers were finished in

Vietnam, when they were being sent home, they'd have to go to this base to like come down from the war before they went home to America. Right. They used to tell us horrible things about what was going on there and it just stuck in my mind, you know, people, nobody knows the horrors that was going on there. And it just stuck in my mind, you know, nobody knows the horrors that's going on. And that's where the war pigs came in.

And that was a huge song. It is, yeah, it still is. It's huge. And it's like, it's been covered by a lot of people, but it's interesting that, you know, that it's founded in that. And you kind of clear up some stuff in the book about, you know, what people think the songs are about and what they're really

about. You know, some people have created whole mythologies around songs, you know, like, like Iron Man. Yeah. That I don't know what people assume it's about, but what you say it's about is different. It was based on the story of Jesus going into, going for his crucifixion. Yeah. It's like he goes in as a hero and a donkey into Jerusalem. Jerusalem, yeah. And the next week, he's crucified.

You know, Iron Man was like, he was shot into space, saw the future of the world, came back to tell everyone, but on the way back, he got stuck in this atomic storm. Yeah. And was turned to iron, and people just were taking the piss out of him all the time. And then eventually, he comes to life and gets revenge on them.

So it's like Super Jesus. Yeah. Ha ha ha. With not the same intent. But also like, you know, from very early on, people align you with Satanism. Absolutely, yeah. But it was probably Black Sabbath. The name had something to do with it.

But Satanism was always this like ridiculous thing, you know, even, you know, in terms of like that Anton Lave prank, the publicity prank that happened in San Francisco, there were a bunch of clowns really, the Satanists. Oh yeah. Yeah. But at the time, it was a big thing in England in like 68. Oh, because everyone was into Crowley. Crowley, the Beatles were doing the Maharishi thing.

Yeah, not quite Satanism. And all we knew was Catholics or Protestants, and then suddenly the Beatles were like in India doing this other thing. And a lot of Pakistanis were Muslims that were coming to where we lived. Sure. And there's all these different religions that we didn't really know anything about, and including Satanism. Yeah. Well, it's not even a real religion. we lived. And there's all these different religions that we didn't really know anything about, including Satanism. Yeah. Well, it's not even a real religion. No, but there was a lot of big interest in the horror films at the time.

And they would show up at the shows? The Christians would. Oh, yeah. And the Satanists, when they turned up at, I think, one of them tried to sacrifice us. He jumped on stage to stab Tony. Yeah. Right at the same time that Tony's amp blew up and Tony walked off with this guy with a knife. Yeah.

About to stab him. Yeah. One of the roadies got him. Yeah. And that night at the hotel, we heard all this commotion out in the corridor of our rooms. Yeah. And the hell's going on there? Yeah.

So we looked out and there was this like, coven. Or like a witch coven. Yeah, witch coven with all the black candles. In the hallway? Yeah. In the hallway of the hotel. Yeah. And our tour manager went out and he went, hey, come here, do you

want to know a secret about Sabbath? And they all went, yeah, tell us what it is. And he blew out all the candles and went, happy birthday to you. Now, back off. That was the end of that. But it kind of hung over you for a while, right? The dark end. Oh yeah, still in... I remember in... Even when we did the... Much later on, we played in Austria.

And this was like in the year 2000 or something. We had this post, the album cover was an angel with its wings on fire. Right, yeah. And put the poster up in this ultra Catholic place. Yeah. And the bishop of the place went absolutely mental. So he had all the posters changed from, it was a crocodile eating the angel to cover the wings on fire. And Tony Martin says, well, what's worth the angel with the wings on fire or being eaten by a crocodile? And I always remember the first time we played Salt Lake City, there was like the guys with

the Bibles praying with the Bibles all throughout our gig. Pete Oh my God. But I mean, it seems like it only added to the mystique, right? Pete Yeah. Pete I mean, it didn't hurt you. Pete Certainly didn't. Pete Yeah. And the Master of Reality album, that's another one where people assume they know that the title implies something, but

in the book you're like, it doesn't. You just came up with it from what the master recording... Yeah, it's the master recording and the lyrics were all about reality. Yeah. And that's how it got the name. It's very funny when you kind of like, the truth happens. When you know you're able to sort of demystify all this stuff. I think the worst was Paranoid, when they said that

Paranoid ends with, and so I tell you to enjoy life before it's too late. Yeah. And Don Arden went on this talk show and he said, Sabath, like, fancy, they can't, actually saying one of the songs, Sabbath, like, fancy, they can't, that say, actually say one of the songs, Paranoid, I tell you to end your life. Yeah. Instead of enjoy, and the real lyrics, enjoy life.

Was that when Don Arden was mad at you? Yeah, because we didn't go with his management. The stories about you guys, like, you're just so happy to be playing and working, but you're being ripped off for years. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't even know how you like, thank God you figured it out. Well, because it found the manager up says,

well, I want to buy a new car. And you get the money for the new car, but you and that's all you'd get. You wouldn't, you weren't allowed to have like X amount of money in the bank and you had no recourse for it because you just thought that was the way it was well if you always says don't worry at

the end of it you will all be rich and all this kind of crap this was the first manager the second manager Patrick Mayen my first managers Jim Simpson who are the gangsters? First Don Hardin and then Patrick Meehan. Wilf Pine was... Wilf Pine, that guy.

Yeah, he was associated with the Pagano family in New York. And he worked for the Craze too? Worked for the Craze, yeah. He was like their... Scary guy. Yeah. But he was... We never really knew about the mafia connection.

You didn't until later? No, not anything until, yeah, until much later. It just seems like there was a group of guys, like Arden's kind of notorious. Oh yeah, yeah. And, and he's Ozzie's wife's father. Yeah. And, you know, and I didn't know about all that stuff between them eventually that they had a falling out Yeah for like about 15 20 years. Did they ever resolve it?

They resolved it when he got dementia and she just felt sorry for let it go. Yeah. Yeah because he was kind of notorious my buddy was is in music management John Daniel and That's kind of notorious. My buddy is in music management, John Daniel. Arden just took a liking to him, so he used to talk to that guy all the time. He was a real mythic kind of powerhouse. Yeah. Well, when he tried to, had Robert Stigward hung upside down outside his office window. That was Will Pine. Yeah. Was hanging him upside down. Yeah, and which band was he in? Hey stick would

Bee Gees, oh Yeah Lots of Tom Jones. Yeah. Oh that he had all those guys Yeah, but you guys were charting and not making any money from it Just when a nice house. Yeah Just, we had a nice house, and we had nice cars. Yeah. But we were allowed, I think it was about $1,000 in the bank, and that's all it could ever be.

And you're selling millions of records. Millions of records, selling every gig we could play out. And was this by by the by the time Like masters of master of reality. Oh, yeah, right until the end. Yeah, right until when did it start? When did you start to sell out? Probably after paranoid. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and you built this whole fan base. Yeah massive all over all over the world Yeah, mostly dudes Yeah, most sweet dudes. Yeah, unfortunately.

Yeah. Yeah. Until Van Halen was with us. Yeah, then it turned around a little bit. For them, yeah. Going, oh God, there's loads of women in the audience, I wonder why. Yeah.

And then you go out and you'd see Dave Lee Roth and Eddie Van Halen. Cute. Yeah, it was a little more upbeat. Yeah, it was pretty poppy. And they had all the videos as well on MTV. Yeah. We'd never really heard of videos.

Do you think you built a new fan base then? You brought some different people in after Van Halen? No. I always thought, you know, I came into Sabbath later. I came into Sabbath when I was in my 30s or 40s and like listening and I always thought like I was always a big volume for fan. Like I love that fucking record. And if you say that to like, you know, like diehard Sabbath fans, they're like, go fuck yourself. Someone said to me that that Ozzy doesn't even remember doing that record. But you talk pretty highly of it. It was when we started to change from the ultra heavy stuff and the get more musical.

So we thought, you know, you can't just keep churning out the same thing album after album. And I think we actually had more time to write. And so we started expanding the musical direction. And some people liked it, some people didn't, because the sales weren't as much as the third album. They wanted the heavy stuff. And also you talk about how Sweetleaf isn't about pot.

Well, the lyrics are about part. Yeah. But the idea came from these cigarettes in Ireland. I'd just come back from Ireland. Yeah. And they had these cigarettes called Sweet Afton. And I always thought for some reason it said Sweet Leaf. Yeah. That was where it came from.

Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. There's like one piece, I don't know if it's into The Void or not, but like how much influence did Zappa have on you guys? I used to love Mothers of Invention when I was a teenager. And it was a couple of, I mean the rest of the band weren't really into Zappa. Right. Oh no. I love the mothers, I love the fact that, because at the time it was all like, oh, she's

in love with me or just broke up with me girlfriend. That was kind of lyrics. Zappa's lyrics were like totally different to everybody else. It was like, we are the brain police and all that kind of stuff. So it's just- And anti-establishment. Inspiring. Yeah. Yeah. Police and all that kind of stuff. So just an anti-establishment inspiring Yeah, yeah, because I think Tony sometimes when he goes off

I mean is that but used to do that too just for hours. Well, we found out that Zappa was a Sabbath fan Yeah, why wouldn't he be you guys are like in some ways the way you change up rhythms and you know half the songs You know, it was sort of Kind of musically different. And he likes to do that. Oh, yeah. Just shift it up. Yeah.

But like at the time, a lot of the music journalists, Zappa was like elite kind of thing. Sabbath was like gutter, snipe. And they couldn't believe that Zappa like Sabbath. So that helped you out Yeah, he used to play Iron Man in his set. Oh, yeah. You do a good version of it Yeah, and supernaught he loved he thought supernaught was the best riff he's ever heard. It's great riff That what that's not that's on four, right? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you met him eventually, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah He's his birthday.

Just mental. When was that? How old was he? Was it in the 70s? Yeah, about 75. And he'd come to the gig, he invited us to his birthday party. Yeah. Club.

Yeah. And we went in and he had this birthday cake shaped like a cake. And he was like, oh, I'm us to his birthday party. Yeah club. Yeah, and we went in and they had these birthday cake Shaped like a vagina. Yeah, all this champagne like Like pissing out of it. Yeah, and we thought this is weird and then these three models came in gorgeous models. Yeah Completely naked did a handstand against the wall and he went and poured champagne down the women's bits. That was a new level for you? It certainly opened my eyes. To what? open my eyes. What?

Like the possibilities of debauchery? Yeah. And like, at what point do you guys start fighting, right at the beginning? No, no, beginning. I mean, Ozzy was always a bit scared of Tony because Tony had the, he was the school bully when he was at school. Oh, school bully when he was at school. Oh, literally from when he was a kid. Yeah, so they had this respect for him kind of thing.

And it wasn't until we started getting like really badly into drugs and stuff and booze. That the egos started to? Mainly Ozzy and Bill used to start killing each other. Yeah, what was this thing where everyone was setting Bill on fire? That was Tony's thing, because Bill had a big beard by then. Yeah. And Tony used to say,

can I set your beard on fire, Bill? Yeah. Okay, so he'd set it off, and Bill would like go, breathing the fumes from his beard. Yeah. And then one day, when we were mixing the Heaven and Hell album in London, Tony said, Bill was just about to leave, and Tony went,

I haven't set your beard on fire for a long time, I'm going to do it now. And Bill went, no I'm leaving, I've got to get back to the Midlands. So about two minutes later, Bill comes back in, okay you can do it. That's crazy. So Tony gets this, lights his beard and throws all this flammable liquid that he used to clean the recording desk up with and Bill just goes up in total flames and we we realized how serious it was. And he's like, it's all over him. He's totally on fire.

He's rolling around the floor. We were getting newspapers instead of cloth. We were putting newspapers. It made it even worse. Yeah. And of course he had to straight to hospital. His trousers had melted into his legs. Oh my God.

And his socks had melted into his legs. Oh my God. And his socks had melted into his legs. Oh my God. God knows how he survived it. Did he forgive him? Yeah. His mom didn't though, she went absolutely mental. Yeah, it sounds like Tony really liked to do some pretty painful pranks.

Yeah, he did. Which albums are you the most proud of? Depends what mood, I mean, probably Paranoid, Master of Reality. Yeah, yeah. And by the time, when does it start to strain in terms of Ozzy wanting to take off? When we went on to, around the time the Van Halen tour started,

because Tony brought in Albert Chapman as the tour manager. Yeah. And Albert Chapman was the one that used to beat Howard of Ozzy at school. Another one? Yeah. And he was Tony's best mate, so Ozzy just like, I don't want him in with us. Tony insisted, so it sort of, that started it. And then we'd go on with Van Halen, we'd go on and start copying Ozzy. Dave Lee Roth would say the same things as Ozzy and that extend the solos like we were doing.

To upstage you? Yeah. Yeah. And Tony had a word with Eddie this one night and told him to knock it on the head, which they did. But Ozzy kept thinking, he was intimidated by Dave Lee Roth because he kept saying the same things that Ozzy would say. So when Ozzy went on he'd feel daft saying the same thing. Right. And he fucked with his head. Yeah, but I think on the loads of booze and drugs

and everything he was getting like so out of it. I remember when we were doing I think it was the Sabotage album, we went into the bar and Ozzy was like collapsed on the floor in the bar and Charlie Watts was in there because we used to play darts with him. And Charlie Watts was like stepping over Ozzy. I think your mates had too much to drink. And then eventually Ozzy just got so fed up of it, he left the band, went to form the Blizzard of Oz band. And we got this other singer in that Tony liked and he was just going right down the hill.

So eventually Ozzy came back to the band and we did the album Never Say Die. Yeah. But it just wasn't working. Really? Because there was too much tension? We didn't have any money, we just had to pay all the tax from the money that we'd never seen.

Because in on revenue, we didn't believe us that we hadn't seen the money. Yeah, that they'd been ripped off by the management. So all that money that we'd been ripped off by, we had to pay the income tax on. So much money. And we were literally broke at the time when we didn't have a say day. So it was sort of like you had to do it just to sell some records.

Yeah. How'd that one sell? Not very well. It was my least favorite album. Yeah. Why? Because everybody was so whacked? It was whacked and just having been broke. We did it, we recorded it in Toronto

in the middle of winter and I got this cold in my ear. Yeah. Everything sounded like I was underwater. Oh my God. And it just, we had to get up at seven o'clock every morning to go down to this cheapest place we could find. Was it the cinema? And we had to get up at seven o'clock every morning to get down to the cheapest place we could find was at the cinema, the theater. That would let us rehearse there

before the people came in at two o'clock in the afternoon. So it was just horrible. I mean, you guys are huge rock stars at this point. Yeah, we had to pay so much. We had to pay Patrick me and a million Pan just to get rid of him. Oh all our money Future money that was from our future royalties that we had to pay him so we didn't earn anything I can't even imagine that how you guys like you must have been exhausted too. I mean drugs living like you guys were Yeah, I mean it drugs living like you guys were. Yeah.

I mean, it sounded like you were just wasted. We were, yeah. But, you know, I'd never really, like, give a real close listen to, you know, the Dio albums. And they're, like, you know, really good. Dio revived us, yeah. Because Ozzy was out, there was no getting him back. No. And Bill was gone, right? No, Bill was with us. Yeah

First when do you okay me? Yeah, but Because we've been rehearsing with Ozzy and he just didn't seem to be into it. We'd We were coming up with these songs. Yeah, we were going now don't like that. We're going What are we gonna do? do? And eventually Tony just said, you know, we've got to part ways. Is it emotional, all these things? It's horrible. I was crying, me and Bill were crying. Because we knew that it had to happen. And it was the best thing for Ozzy anyway, as it turned out. I mean, yeah, he became bigger than sabbath. Yeah But Ronnie came in he listened to the stuff we were doing and he came out with these vocals

Yeah, yeah credible. Yeah, and you liked him. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah good guy. Yeah, he's great But it's like I guess like you were pretty clear in the book about how you know when a lot of people can't understand You know why bands break up necessarily, but when you frame it sort of like when you're with people every fucking day You know you're gonna it's gonna start to wear on you. It's true. It's like the first two weeks of a two-year-old Yeah, she's great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and like fourth week great yeah yeah yeah yeah and like fourth week but the ego thing was it like it seemed like Tony had a way of doing things Tony was the unspoken leader of the band yeah it was hot from day one yeah and and you always it was it was also it's interesting in the book is that like like you guys, as the drugs were on and everything else, I mean, you were literally waiting for Tony to come up with a riff.

By Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, we went back to California, which is where we did Volume Four and loved everything that went with it. Big mansion and got up to all kinds of things. So let's go back there. We came back I think about two or three weeks and it was like we hadn't done anything. We were all staring at Tony to come up with a riff. And he was dry, just totally empty. So we said this isn't working. It's either the end of the band. I think we can't come up with anything. So we all went back to England.

We thought we'd give it one more try. We went to this castle in Wales. And Tony came up with the riff for Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. Wow. And that was it. You're back. We're back, yeah. That's like, he's influenced so many people with that riff.

I remember Soundgarden, that guy, uh, Kim, well, I forget his name. Kim Thrill. Yeah, he was a huge Tony guy. Yeah. Right? Yeah. He really was like, that's the way you play. Even his SG.

Yeah, exactly. And Scott Ian too, was like, you know, full Sabbath guy. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's a good guy. He is, yeah. Yeah. And then like, you know, I Sabbath guy. Oh yeah, yeah. He's a good guy. He is, yeah. Yeah. And then like, you know, I think though, ultimately though, whatever you thought of Metallica at the beginning, they ended up really being like a real Sabbath band, it seemed to me,

in terms of how they thought about it. Yeah, especially the Black Elves. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it sounds like a Sabbath album in terms of like, you know using those Tritones and using you know stuff that is totally disconnected from blues Into this kind of kind of heavy sounding diabolical music Well, they supported Ozzy on is one of his first solo to us and Ozzy was walking past their dressing room Yeah playing Sabbath albums and

he thought they were taking the piss out of him and he went to confront them and they said, no, no, we love Sabbath, we're not trying to take the piss out of it. And he believed him eventually? Yeah, and they're still good friends of ours. Yeah, it's a heavy band, man. But so what happened with Dio ultimately? He sort of tried to take over Tony's part, because Tony was always the leader, and then like me and Ronnie were like really close friends.

We'd go to each other's house, get pissed together. And he'd always, it just got so that he wanted everything his way. And he'd go on stage and Tony, he'd be going, Tony's too, and he'd be telling me that Tony's too loud. And I'd go, go and tell him then. No, you tell him. He wouldn't confront Tony.

Eventually, he just really drained me. Got sick of hearing about it. I just couldn't talk to him anymore. Yeah, just got the ego thing again. Yeah, that was an ego thing, yeah. Mob Rules, that's a great album. Great album, yeah. Yeah, and pretty, it's where we're living right now. You know what I mean?

You listen to Fool's Mob Rules, it's like it's happening. Yeah, I mean, great lyrics, Ronnie. But we did that, the actual song Mob Rules at John Lennon's house. For the movie. Yeah. So slightly different version. Slightly different. Yeah, we could never get the same vibe when we did the album version.

Yeah, because that one's heavier, isn't it? It was the whole thing felt better. Because you were in the, uh, You were in Lennon's house. We were on tour at the time, so we didn't have any gear with us. And there was an old bass there, like an Italian thing that nobody's ever heard of. The bass or the amp?

The amp. Yeah. And, um, it just had this great sound. Probably like about a ten dollar amp or something that nobody's ever heard of. And it just worked. The whole thing worked. And you didn't want to steal the amp? No. And then you went through several different singers, like those after like those that after Dio. Well, we did Ian Gillan from Deep Purple. That was Don Hardin's idea.

By this time we'd gone back to Don Hardin. And Ozzy said, go back to Don, he's doing great for me, you'll love him. So his idea was getting Gillan in. Yeah, and that was for Born Again? Born Again, yeah. That's so funny. There's that scene in the book where Ozzy shows up, you know, at your house again with a shaved head.

And this big long yellow gown on, like almost like the first meeting. Exactly. And that's when you say you go back with Don. Yeah. You guys wore crosses that his dad made? Yeah, when we got, because then, not Anton LeVay, but the chief, wherever he was, Satanist in England. Yeah. I don't know.

One was invited us to the witch's Sabbath. Oh, yeah. So we went, oh, piss off. Yeah. And he says, well, if you don't come, I'm gonna curse you. Yeah. And this other guy that was on the white magic side said, you've got to wear crosses.

Otherwise this guy is serious. And of course we all believed him. Oh no. When was that? Like after paranoid or something? Well, just as, no, first album. Oh, first album, yeah. And so Ozzy's dad made us all these,

I mean, I've had crosses anyway. Yeah. But Ozzy's dad made us all the same, like aluminum crosses. And you wore them for years? Yeah. Bill still wears it. Me too.

Do you still have yours? I think so, somewhere. Yeah, yeah. That seems like a nice artifact. And when did you start to play in your own stuff? Well, solo albums, probably 95 or something. Was that a relief? Did you like it? I loved it.

Yeah. Yeah, because it wasn't to make any money, because I knew it wasn't loved it. Yeah. Yeah, cause it wasn't, it wasn't to make any money cause I knew it wasn't going to do anything. It's just like, I gotta get this stuff out of me. Yeah. And it was like ultra, ultra heavy stuff. Oh yeah. And what are those, what was the band called?

GZR. Yeah, yeah. How's that, do you have a, are there, do you have fans that love those things? I wouldn't say love. Yeah, I mean, when I was doing the Sabba thing, people would come up with the albums to sign and everything. Yeah.

And your fans are pretty loyal, huh? Oh, absolutely, yeah. Yeah. It's more still here. Yeah, and I interviewed Halford not long ago, and he loves you guys. Yeah, well he's a local guy as well. Yeah, and he sang with you for a minute, right?

He did the Ozzy Farewell Tour. Yeah. Ozzy wanted us to, Ronnie refused to do it, which is when that particular lineup broke up. Yeah. And so we called Robert and said, do you want to come to Ozzie's farewell? It's the highlight of his life.

Always remember he went on stack. He didn't know we had an intro music. The intro was like five minutes long. And he went on and he's like this with his bald head and all these black stuff. And the crowd are going, what the hell's Rob Halford doing? He was just standing there going how long is this thing gonna go on?

But he's a good blug, Rob. And the only other time you played as the full band was for that for like one show the charity show? We did a whole tour. Oh, you did? Yeah, and our final album, 13. Oh yeah, yeah. Which is 19, I mean, 2013. And that's with Bill? No, it started off with Bill. Yeah.

And I thought he was doing great, and then I went on holiday. We had a break, I went on holiday to Hawaii, came back and Bill wasn't in the band anymore Yeah, I'll never got an explanation. Well, you don't know why but he was like on and off heavy like he seemed like to have the least amount of control over the booze anyways, he's been sober since 2002 oh, that's good

Saved his life. I bet yeah. Yeah,, I mean, he had hepatitis through drinking vodka and he survived that. And then I'll say in the book as well, when we were doing the Born Again album with Gillan, Bill was seeing these cottages in the sky. Oh, right. And he's like, I went into his bedroom and he's got, help, help. Yeah. I'm going up to Mara. She said his bedroom. He's got help help. Yeah, I'm going to Mara She's that cottage is gonna land on me. Yeah, you know about news having like delirious

Yeah, yeah from alcohol. Oh, yeah, and then he got sober after that took him to hospital Literally the tech kept him in hospital and full of dirt rid of all the alcohol. Yeah, and Never went back to it after that. Oh, that's good. And is he like, is he okay? Like is everybody okay financially now? Oh yeah. Yeah.

Oh, that's good. But after that last tour, like how did that feel being with that, you know, mostly the original lineup? It was amazing. Cause I never ever thought it was gonna happen. Yeah. And it's just incredible. And the people coming from all over the world at the last gig. Yeah.

It was like a whole contingent from Japan. Where was that? Where was the last gig? In Birmingham. Oh my God. That must have been amazing. Back to Birmingham. Yeah.

And you look back at it and you're like, we nailed it. Yeah. Cause Ozzy can always do Ozzy, it seems like. For however long he's been able to do it. Oh yeah. Like he can just show up and he's like singular, you know? There's nobody quite like him. And you guys are close again? Yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's good. He's doing all right? Yeah, I mean, we've only just started talking again because my wife and Sharon fell out of a, God knows what, on the last, in 2017. So I'd sort of lost touch with Ozzy, and he's not on the phone. Yeah.

And then there's this thing in the Rolling Stone that he was calling me names for not asking how he was, health wise. Yeah. And I said, I've been sending you stuff and I was sending him like, how are you and all that. Yeah, yeah. Texts.

Yeah. And nobody was passing it on. Oh. And I explained, what about all the text? What text? Oh. So we got back together now. Oh, that's good.

Yeah. And what have you been doing with your life lately? This. No, well after the book, I don't know, just I've been taking it easy. And you like it? I love it. Do you play anymore?

Very rarely. Ever since I stopped boozing in 2014, after a little battle in a pub. I haven't written anything since I gave up booze. The excuse for boozing was to go and write something. So I'd be sitting in my studio and necking the old wine Yeah beer or whatever and getting like loads of inspiration. Yeah, and since I've stopped boozing. I haven't got the Just don't feel like it. No, but you're it's okay. You let it go. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I think I glad I gave up booze Oh, yeah, and that's that's the worst drug of all I think yeah, cuz it destroys you and it's legal and you can kind of Yeah, never stop, but also you were self-medicating right you think with the depression

When I had a nervous breakdown in 1999 yeah, and I was finally went to the right person that's that told me what the depression was all about. It's clinically depressed. Started taking Prozac and I was going, these aren't working. You got to give it like six weeks. After six weeks, I felt like a different person. That's amazing. Everything that I, oh yeah, this is me again. Wow.

Because like I think you suggest in the book a little bit that a lot of the writing and a lot of the music was almost like a treatment. It was the only way out, yeah. Yeah. So when I was, cause I've had it since I was like a teenager. Yeah.

On and off depression. Yeah. And that's what paranoid's all about. Yeah. All those lyrics about how I couldn't talk to anybody about it. And I used to go to the doctor and he'd go, go down the pub, have a couple of drinks, you'll be all right.

Go and walk your dog. That's not working. Well, you can't have any, that's it. Or they go into a mental hospital. That was it, there was no gray area. No therapy, no, yeah. And it wasn't bad enough for me to go into a mental hospital. That was it. There was no gray area. No therapy, no, yeah. And it wasn't bad enough for me to go into a mental hospital.

Right. And so that's the best way for me was to write music and write the lyrics. That's amazing. Cause like, you know, it kind of created the tone was your, you know, your battle with depression was to express the darkness and there was enough darkness in the world for everybody to lock in. There was, yeah. Yeah.

Well, it was great talking to you, man. Cheers. Thanks so much. ["The Black Sabbath and Beyond"] What a life, am I right? The book, Into the Void, From Birth to Black Sabbath and Beyond is now out in paperback wherever you get your books.

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See how you can help, or get help, at Canada.ca slash ease the burden a message from the government of Canada Hey for full Marin listeners we posted another rare live WTF episode this week It's from my 2010 show in Aspen with folks like Shane Moss, Hannibal Burruss, and Michael Ian Black. I, you know, I don't mean to intimidate you, and is there anything I can do to make our relationship better?

No, it's, well, in fairness, we don't really have a relationship. And have, and for probably a decade. But that's through neither, neither fault of our own. We just run in different circles. You know, I'm married and have kids and a career. Yeah. Career. Sure, sure. married and have kids and a career. Career and you have other things. Yeah, yeah.

I have two failed marriages and I didn't want to. I was not going to. And a podcast, I have a podcast. You have other things, whatever those things may be. Oh, what, are you Mr. Happy? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, me and Shane are pretty happy guys.

No, I understand your condescension Yeah? Okay. Yeah, me and Shane are pretty happy guys. No, I understand your condescension and I understand that it's really a device you use to get approval and I... I didn't want this to be a battle. I came up thinking to myself, I'm going to let Mark know how much he has meant to me and a tremendous amount. Okay, okay. All right, well...

See, you can't take it. You can't take warm feelings. And I'm exuding warmth to you. You're more comfortable with me being a dick to you. Because then it justifies your anger towards me and bitterness towards me. When in fact I have nothing but admiration and love for you. And you can't handle that.

I can handle it, man. Fuck you. To get all our bonus episodes and every WTF episode ad free, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast. Here's a selection from the vault of past riffage. I'm gonna be there. Boomer lives! Monkey La Fonda, Cat Angels everywhere.