WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1555 - Clarence Maclin

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Clarence Maclin was uniquely suited to make his film debut in the new movie Sing Sing, starring alongside Coleman Domingo. That’s because the film is based on a real life group of incarcerated men at Sing Sing prison and Clarence plays a fictionalized version of himself. Clarence talks with Marc about how a theater program run by an organization called Rehabilitation Through the Arts turned around his life on the inside and helped him find who he needed to be when he got on the outside. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everyone, we are Kat and Ev from the Kat and Ev Unfiltered Podcast, and we're here to tell you about a very special episode presented by Airbnb and Ecast Creative. We recorded with Jessie Cruickshank from her Airbnb. Spoiler, it was gorgeous. We talked family, vacations, MTV gossip, and you know, just had some good old unfiltered girls time. I was raised on boy bands, so like, I always wanted the hot blonde one. And then on the hills, Brody Jenner, I was like, openly thirsting for Brody Jenner at all times. Tune into our LA Shenanigans wherever you get your podcast. People right now we're in the middle of summertime. There's cookouts, ice cream, and lots of other things that can knock you off your food routine. But one person's common indulgence could be another person's shame spiral. Noom

doesn't pretend everyone is the same when it comes to weight management goals. It helps you build an individualized plan that meets your personal needs and I really like the Noom app where you can see all your goals clearly and in one place. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology based approach. Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com and check out Noom's first ever cookbook, The Noom Kitchen for 100 healthy and delicious recipes to promote better living. Available to buy now wherever books are sold. F**K THE GAYS! Alright, let's do this.

How are you what the f**kers? What the f**k buddies? What the f**kin' adians? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron and this is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going by you? What's happening?

Is it hot? Is it f**kin' hot? How hot is it where you are? Is it raining? Is it blowing apocalyptic wind? Are buildings falling down? How's the summer going? Where you at right now? You cooking?

Are you driving? Are you on a bike? Are you on a treadmill? I think it might be time to get off the treadmill and actually start running. Go for it. Run, run. Look, you guys, how's everything going? I don't know. I don't know how you're doing. I'm okay. I'm in, I'm in Vancouver. I'm sitting here looking out a window over the city of Vancouver. It seems very peaceful. The weather's been beautiful. I've been, you know, cooking all day for the week. I'm trying to, I'm trying, I'm trying to get the shit done.

Trying to have a life outside my head. Do you understand? Do you understand what it's like when you live in your head? The acting's helping. It's kind of interesting though. I do have these moments, like today we were on set for all day inside a sound stage where they have a deconstructed RV,

which is the RV, the exact RV that we're using to drive across country in this show, but it's just in the middle of the sound stage and you can pull pieces out of it, you can move walls, you have complete access, and you can shoot without the elements. And it's kind of fascinating sometimes when you're walking into a big black soundstage, dark,

and you kind of walk around and then you just enter this other world. And I don't know what it is, either you can do it or you can't. Either you can sit in an RV that's missing a side or, you know, surrounded by cameras or sitting on an Apple box instead of a chair to be an eyeline for someone else

and completely believe you're in the RV, not even think about it. I think that should be probably the first lesson of acting school, to see if you can do that. Can you pretend that you're not where you're doing whatever acting you're doing? In the sense of like, it's not a real situation. Can you pretend that it is?

There you go. That's the first semester. What's going on? I talked to, I was working with Owen today, Owen Wilson, it was funny because I watched, I've watched, like since I'm up here, I'm watching or rewatching a lot of films. And I've watched two with Owen.

So it's kind of interesting to kind of, you know, casually bring up like, yeah, so Inherent Vice, you know, what was, how was that for you? I rewatched Inherent Vice. Wait, I'm not gonna start rambling about that. Let me talk about, I will, but not right now. I want to talk about my guest today. This guy is kind of an amazing guy. His name is Clarence Macklin.

He's one of the leads in this new film, Sing Sing, with Coleman Domingo. But he wasn't a professional actor before this. The acting he did before this movie, of the leads in this new film Sing Sing with Coleman Domingo. But he wasn't a professional actor before this. The acting he did before this movie was in prison. And the movie is based on the real life story of Clarence and other incarcerated men at Sing Sing prison in New York. And I had no idea the depth of this guy in this program.

I was kind of aware of the organization, Rehabilitation Through the Arts, because that's where my producer, Brendan's wife works, Dawn. And I watched the movie Sing Sing. Like I knew she worked in the prisons with these guys doing theater, but I didn't know the effect of it

or the organization of it. So I watched the movie and then I also watched a documentary about RTA called Dramatic Escape, which was filmed leading up to Clarence's release from prison. But this guy was awesome. And I watched the movie not really knowing the backstory. Like I didn't watch the documentary first. I watched the movie with Coleman Domingo

and there are scenes watch the documentary first. I watched the movie with Coleman Domingo and there are scenes in the prison yard, there are scenes with him and Coleman where he shows up and I'm like, who the fuck is this guy? I've never seen this guy before. He's nailing this shit. I mean, he is raw as fuck.

He's like real deal. And then I find out, yeah, he is the real deal. But it's a fascinating thing because of the success rate of it. That if you engage these guys in this process, there's so much that can be, it has a profound effect on their humanity, their focus, their time in prison,

their understanding of empathy. It's really a kind of a moving thing focus their time in prison, their understanding of empathy, their, you know, it, it just, it's really a kind of a moving thing that makes you believe that rehabilitation is possible and real. If these people are given an opportunity to engage in a way that allows them to be vulnerable in a safe space and also reflect through art on their own lives and perhaps what they've done. Also saw some Instagram reel about this program that puts cats in prisons, like cats that

would generally be in a shelter. And it makes total sense. A cat's like a perfect prison animal. Because you really have to earn the relationship, and the kind of relationship you have is not as demanding as a dog. And you don't necessarily ever feel completely in the pocket all the time with a cat, which I imagine

is kind of how they might feel in reality. But it's these small things these small efforts when people give a shit about what's going on in the prison population to sort of bring some humanity in there or try to engage in some vulnerable humanity for these for these people in prison that I think it seems can facilitate real change. So that was a very interesting conversation to have with Clarence.

I'll be in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on Friday, September 20th. I got the note, 20th, not 30th. I know I've been saying 30th. And then I'm in Phoenix at the Orpheum Theater on Saturday, September 21st It's the day after you can go to WTF pod.com for tickets Also, if you're in the LA area this weekend, you can check out our recent guest

Alhandro Escovedo who is performing live at the Venice West tomorrow July 12th and at the Lodge room in Island Park on Saturday July 13th, you can get tickets at aljondroescovido.com. He's the real deal. It's worth seeing. He asked me if I was going to be in town and if I wanted to play a song with him. I was like, fuck, I'm not going to be there. And then he was like, I told him I was in Vancouver.

So then he's like, well, I'll be up in Vancouver. When did he say he was coming up here? On July 28th. And he's like, you you wanna play with me there? And I'm like, yeah, yes, I'd like to play some rock and roll with Alejandro Escovedo, please, thank you. And I was like, what do you wanna do? You wanna do maybe a VU or some Iggy or some Stones?

And then he suggested Hurricane by Neil Young and Beast of Burden by the Stones. Now I gotta learn those, now I gotta learn those and not panic. You know, you've probably got some travel plans this summer, maybe a quick vacation, maybe you're away for a month. And what we know from FBI statistics is that summertime with its longer days and frequently empty homes is the time when break-ins spike.

But you can protect your home when it's sitting unattended by using Simpl SimplySafe. We started using SimplySafe eight years ago for complete home protection and we want you to have the same confidence that your home is safe while you're not there. With fast protect monitoring and live guard protection, SimplySafe agents can act within five seconds of receiving your alarm and can even see and speak to intruders. SimplySafe has been named the best home security systems by US News and World Report for five years running and offers the best customer service in home security according to Newsweek and

according to us. We never have an easier and more pleasant time with customer service reps than we do when talking with Simply Safe. Protect your home this summer with 20% off any new simply safe system when you sign up for fast protect monitoring just visit simply safe.com slash WTF that simply safe.com slash WTF there's no safe like simply safe. Can you dig it? Yeah. So I've been watching these.

I'm going to be honest with you because I just realized it You know as much as I've talked about the movie Michael Clayton Which is a lot. I? Love it. That's a rewatch a lot But I've also found there's a new one in the fold There's a new rewatch in the fold. I found myself, I think I've watched the movie Sicario probably three or four times in the last six months. And I just watched it again yesterday.

And then I watched the very end again today. It is a beautifully structured movie, beautifully acted, very compelling. I just fucking love that movie. And it's one of those movies. It's a grown up fucking movie. It's deeper than it comes off to be. It unfolds.

The plot is spectacular. Man, what a great movie. So that's, I'm finding that I'm rewatching that. And on the other side of the spectrum, the other thing that I rewatch, and some of you know this and I can't explain it But I just paid to watch the devil wears Prada again again

So what does that mean? What does it mean that the two movies that I'm rewatching and that I have rewatched many times in my life outside of Michael Clayton are Sicario and the devil wears Prada That's I think that gives me a lot of range. I think that I got a pretty broad personality, I guess. Or maybe I need to really take a look inside to see what's going on. Turn down the dopamine volumes.

Let's fucking turn it down a little bit. Stop putting nicotine in your goddamn mouth every five minutes. Take a break. Kind of breathe. What is it? What lives between Sicario and the Devil Wears Prada? Mark, who are you in there?

Mark, what's happening? I did just watch Inherent Vice again. It was very helpful. I've watched a couple of movies, but inherent vice, it's based on a Thomas Pynchon book, a later Thomas Pynchon book. It is a very hippie kind of a conspiracy kind of a lyrical satirical examination of the cultural mindset of that turning point in the 70s, early 70s, takes place in California. But I realized watching it this time that it's really taken directly from the book. And people don't talk like that. But it's a great book. And because I'm working on a screenplay with Sam Lipsight based on the book that he wrote, you know, we're kind of coming into these same sort of questions

about what can actors deliver? What can they sell story wise? What can they sell dialogue wise? It's also a very convoluted, very funny Paul Thomas Anderson movie underrated. I will say that now, if only I could have the same experience with big Lebowski after watching that fucking 20 times that the second viewing of inherent vice, I'm like, God damn, this might be one of the

best weirdo noir movies and also representation of that late sixties, and also representation of that late 60s, early 70s, kind of crashing of the hippie wave mindset that was kind of taking over the country and the cultural point of view. It's kind of amazing. Josh Brolin's amazing. Joaquin is great, but Owen is in it. Owen Wilson, he plays a very kind of important role. He is what has to be saved at the end of the movie, his character. And I was talking to him and I don't think he didn't seem to, I don't know if he, I don't know if anyone can have a full grasp of that story, but he was perfect for the role. It's kind of funny and amazing that,

and I rewatched Royal Tenenbaums recently, and he's great in that. And it's interesting that I can go to work and just kind of like not only act with this dude, but kind of bring up these moments where I'm like, yeah, I watched that inherent vice, I thought you were great in it, and then he'll tell me a story about the movie,

which is, it's fun man it's fun he's a good guy i can't share the stories because there is stories but uh i can tell you it's uh it's a good time uh look okay so i cooked uh chickpeas and kale for the week. I'm, uh, I'm doing okay. People I'm doing the thinking I'm starting to, uh, realize that, uh, that a lot of times I can't understand why people don't think the things that I think are bad and think the things that I think are good. I can't understand why they don't think the same as me. And I know that that's selfish and self-centered and weird, think are good. I can't understand why they don't think the same as me. And I know that that's selfish and self centered and weird, but there are moments where I'm like,

I don't understand why something's popular and somehow or another, my brain equates that with like, well, it can't be that popular. I mean, if I don't like, but I barely like, you know, it's it's just a strange thing to kind of reel in those tendrils of self-centeredness to the point where you're like, Hey man, it's everyone likes different things. I don't have to understand why they like it. And maybe I should try to see why they like it. And that's what I do,

but there is an innate kind of reflex. Like who's watching that. Oh, millions of people. Oh, well then they must be wrong. It's the wrong voice to honor kind of, isn't it? I don't know. Look, Clarence Macklin is kind of an amazing and inspiring success story. The movie he's in is called Sing Sing, and it opens in theaters tomorrow, July 12th. And this is the conversation we had back at the house. I'm Sarah Milroy,

Director of the McMichael Canadian Art Collection in Kleinberg. If you love impressionism, you'll love what we have on view this summer at the gallery. River of Dreams, Impressionism on the St. Lawrence, features more than 150 sublime works by some of Quebec's most beloved artists. Join us for a journey down the St. Lawrence

and see how Impressionism flourished in this country a century ago. Buy your tickets today at mcmichael.com, home to the art of Canada. Hey everyone, we are Kat Napp from the Katnip Unfiltered Podcast and we're here to tell you about a very special episode presented by Airbnb and Ecast Creative. We recorded with Jessie Cruikshank from her Airbnb.

Spoiler, it was gorgeous. We talked family, vacations, MTV gossip, and you know, just had some good old unfiltered girls time. I was raised on boy bands. So like I always wanted the hot, blonde one, and then on the hills, Brody Jenner, I was like openly thirsting for Brody Jenner at all times. Tune in to our LA Shenanigans

wherever you get your podcasts. ["Sweet Home Alone"] It's exciting, man. It's good to meet you. Good to meet you as well man. I'll just start off by saying I love the movie but your performance was pretty fucking great. Thank you so much. Like I'm watching that movie and you know I know the other guy, the lead. Coleman, Coleman, great guy. know, I know the other guy, the lead, you know, I've seen him. Coleman, Coleman, great guy.

Yeah, seems like a good guy. I'm watching it and I've seen him in things and then you come on and I'm like, who the fuck is this guy? Where'd this guy come from? Is he like a regular actor? Where the fuck did he come from? I've never seen this guy before. That scene where you know before you lock in and he's being too familiar you know and you just shut him down with that look in your eye like this guy's gotta be

real. That doesn't seem like acting to me. Yeah, well there are some elements of me in there. Yeah, of course. There are some. But the thing is, I watch the movie and then I watch the documentary. The Dramatic Escape? Yeah. Okay. So I get the full range of what the RTA program is about.

And through the two of them, after watching the documentary and then watching the movie, and also doing some acting myself, I think what it does is that it really shows how important almost any art is. Right, art is encompassing of all forms. Yeah, and just the idea that we need it to make us more human.

Yes. So it kind of blew my mind in terms of how, when you're in prison and people get out and a lot of people don't stay out, but with this program, a lot of people do because they learn something deeply valuable. Yes. Yes. So, and just in terms of when you think about acting or you think about writing or you think

about, you kind of know in your head, it's important as good people are doing that. But when you see guys who, you know, who have got nothing but time to process the depth of the thing, that it can really change your whole fucking brain. Right. It does. Yeah. It does because it draws something out of you. Right.

Something that's already in there. Yeah. It's already in all of us. Art is a tool to draw that thing out. Yeah, the humanity. Right, exactly. Because, and I think that it's sort of like, it's almost like, it's not an experiment, but when you got guys in there,

just sitting every day with their shame, or with their anger, and not being able to unlock. With those different layers of trauma that they never get to process from years and years ago. Art gives you the permission, the blueprint to peel those layers back and deal with those. And also just to experience different lives in the character, right? No, you're not the only one that has been through this.

Yeah. And some of those, like, I think you did Oedipus, right? Yeah, I did Oedipus. Oedipus Rex was one of my favorite roles. Yeah. And that's it, you know, that's not like, it's not everybody that has that experience. Right. But the depth of it, because of the way it's written, shows the humanity. Right, and it boils down to choices and facing trauma rather than running away from it. This is what Oedipus really is about, because he ran away from a prediction that was predicted

to happen. So he ran from where he thought it was going to happen and ran right to the same thing he was running from. He ran right into it. So had you stood your ground, had you stood where you were in life, in your position, in your convictions, stand on it rather than run. Right.

Yeah, or just do the opposite. Because there's so many times, because I think about the things that hold us back, just as people, whatever it is, there's a whole spectrum of them, but there's sometimes, there's something in you that's gonna fuck you from the inside. More times than not.

Right, and even when you know it's there, you don't even be like, it's doing it again, like you don't have any power over it. That was the good thing about that character you played in the movie, you know, cause he knew, and I imagine, you know, as you did that, you know, there was some part of you that was wired in deep and it wasn't correct, right?

Right, right. It wasn't right, something is wrong. Yeah, yeah. And it basically comes from the way you perceive your world around you. Well, what was your story? How did you come into it? Because you know, I know my producer,

my business partner on this, Brendan McDonald, he's Don's husband. Yeah, yeah, great guy too. Great guy, smart guy. But Don has been doing this for years. Oh yeah. Working with the- We're able to takeitation through the arts program.

Yeah, and you guys did some work together? Yeah, me and Don, we also did communication through art program on Rikers Island. Yeah. Through RTA, of course. And we got to affect some lives there. Yeah, what was that one? That was about, we took famous portraits from MoMA and handed it to individuals

who were in our groups with no background, no history, anything about these portraits and asked them to create a story around what they see. Really? Really. And some of the stories that they created, it like reflected where they were in life and how they process. So once we got really, what made you make those choices?

What caused you to, and then we get into their background history and their life and we see what led to these choices that they made. You know, and we try to just, it's another way of peeling back the layers of trauma. The unfortunate part is that we didn't have a long time with the guys, and that's usually the case. Like we just become, even though we know that this is necessary, we know that it's needed, we never get enough time to

really, and I learned that with the kids too that I work with. You work with kids? Yeah, I work with at-risk teens. I work with... What defines an at-risk teen? Well, usually environment, situations, and growing up conditions, and financial ability to get to where you need to be in life. And most of the kids we deal with are underdeveloped and underprivileged neighborhoods that don't really get to utilize a lot of the benefits of normal society, it don't trickle down that far. So we come in and we offer, I work with outreach teams

from Harlem, from inner cities in New York and Westchester County, up in Westchester County. Two particular programs, one is Successful Steps and another one is 914 United and I have to imagine that you know from your own experience and then coming out of your experience and having this wisdom about it or having you know at least been able to allow yourself to be open enough to show hope right yeah yeah that you must see pretty dramatic change pretty regularly. I do. Yeah.

But it's, I'm really not enough. We need more. Yeah. I'm really not enough. You can't do it all yourself? I can't do it all, I'm sorry. We were all counting on you. When I was working in Lincoln Hall,

I was working in Lincoln Hall with the at-risk teens and a lot of these kids that I work with, they go back upstate when they're done with treatment or they're done with their programming. And I can't continue the, you know, and so we need other people to get involved in the neighborhood, where they come from. You know, so when you send them to us

and we only have this limited amount of time, they get the benefits of everything we have to offer. But it's only for a short period of time. And once they go back, they go right back into the same environments. Cause then there's the pressure. Peer pressure, peer pressure, survival. Different elements, they gotta eat,

they gotta do what they gotta do. So when you got into the program, RTA, was it already existing? Yes it was, it was already existing. So when did you first start? I came in probably like 2000 maybe I think. And how long had you been in prison at that time? I came to prison in 1996.

96, what changed? How'd you get, I mean I know I saw the movie and it's kind of about you, no? Yeah, it's a little bit about me. Yeah, so you were just curious? Actually, what really got me into the program, I had came to the chapel because they closed the yard and I had to make a deal with somebody

that was on the other side of the jail. So the only place we could do it was someplace where both sides of the jail meet. So we arranged to go to the chapel. A good place for deals. Yes, at the moment. It was a good place for deals. Yes, at the moment, it was a good place for deals. So when I get down here, and they're putting on this play,

I believe it was One Flew Over the Cuckoo, I believe that was the first one. That was a good one. And I'm noticing that a lot of these faces are guys that I see in population. I was under the impression that everyone on stage was somebody that came in from the outside. To do the show.

To do the show. And how I view things like that, I was, you know, because am I warped, because am I justifying what I do, I view things like that, like a lot of these people just come in here and look at us like we're a tax write-off, like something to make you sleep better at night. You came to help the poor prisoners. Yeah, you know so I wasn't really too invested in

This fuckers That wasn't really too invested in that yeah And but once I seen that these guys was up here to end their mingling with the with the with the civilians you got women Up there, and yeah, I'm in prison all the time. I wouldn't mind being around some women, you know what I'm saying? And I had to take a year without getting any infractions in order to get in the program. In order to get in, you have to have a clean,

no tier three tickets or anything. What's a tier three ticket? Tier three is a serious infraction. See the- Did you have some? I had a lot. I had a lot of them. At the time, I was in trouble a lot.

In prison. Yeah, yeah. It continues, you know. The behavior continues. Well, that was interesting, at least in the documentary, the one guy was talking about how, you know, whatever goes on outside

is gonna go on inside. Yeah. If you're that guy, you're that guy in there. That's a fact. In prison is a microcosm of the macro. It's just more condensed. Yeah, yeah, and there was a couple of moments in the movie, the moment in the movie when the big guy

was talking about, yeah. You know, he's talking about sitting there eating lunch, and that guy gets his throat cut in front of him, and they all just sit there. And that, you that you know that's squirting on you and everything. Yes, wipe it all get it Yeah, like you ain't seen that right we've been taught to believe or that because of the nature of where we are This is normal right that this just happened. It's fucking crazy. It's crazy So what got you in there? What got me into the program in the prison? What got me into prison program? In the prison.

What got me into prison? Robbery. Yeah. Your whole life? My whole life is violent. Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Mount Vernon, New York. And what was the situation? Well, I had a single parent mother. She still around?

Yeah, my mom, she came to that South by Southwest with me. Yeah, she had a great time. Everybody treated her good. She met Coleman. she loved everybody, everybody loved my mom. I can't imagine what it must feel like for her. Well, for me it felt like, this is like one of the first times I ever got to see my mother cry for something good that I did.

Yeah. Normally when she cries for me it's something bad that I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that made me reflect back to like, I used to be in prison and sitting on my bunk wishing I could change that I did. You know? And that made me reflect back to like, I used to be in prison and sitting on my bunk wishing I could change that. Because I used to vision my mother going into the building,

I grew up in a project, so you know how nosy everybody is in a project. I vision my mother walking into the building and people pointing at her saying, yeah, that's his mother right there. Yeah, yeah, the one, the bad guy. That's the bad guy's mom. And that made me feel. Yeah, yeah. The one, the bad. The bad guy. That's the bad guy's mom. Yeah.

And that made me feel so bad, man. A whole life of that. Yeah, made me feel so bad. So to see my mom cry for something good for me. Oh, and he just, he did such a good job, man. So when you were growing up, you didn't feel, like, I have no real knowledge, I just had a comedian on, you know, Ali Siddique?

I heard of him. He's good, man. Yeah, he spent, he was in prison for about six or seven years and his whole act is a series of hour shows about his life before, after, in prison, and where he's at now, and he's just telling these stories. It's really kind of amazing. But, you know, coming

from where I'm coming from, the representation of prison that I understand is only going to come through movies and through, you know, hearing things and, you know, hearing politics, you know, lefty, you know, a lefty guy, but, you know, the, you know, the progressive ideas of this and that. But when you see it for real in the documentary and then in the movie, because it seems like the movie went out of its way to be very specific and not you know have a you know, uh They wanted to be honest, right? Right and those guys seem to work on that But I mean but what everybody talks about is that you know

When you grow up a certain way your choices are very limited. Yeah. And that's what you experience. Yeah, limited choices and negative influences. Right, that's what Ali talks about in the special, that the only reason he got into crime was because the guy who was doing the crime on the corner had a nice sweatsuit on. He's like, how I get that sweatsuit? It could be just that simple. It could be something just that simple that.

And then you're in. And you're in. Yeah. For me what got me into it was I fought a lot when I was younger. When I was younger I fought a lot and I fought a lot because of my younger brothers. Because we was the poor kids on the block.

We didn't have much. And you know, in our day they used to call it cracking. When they crack on you about the things you got. Now I'm good with you cracking, I can laugh with you. But if you make my little brother cry, it's gonna be a problem. It's gonna be a problem if my brother start crying. And this is when you're what, like 11 or 12?

Maybe 11, 12. As I got older, I'm known as a fighter now. Now I'm fighting dudes and I'm taking your stuff now. If you talk about my brother's sneakers, I'm gonna take yours and give them to him. This is what's gonna happen after the fight. You're Robin Hood. And in my mind, I was justified.

Sure. In my mind, I'm completely 100% in the right. You learned your lesson. Now you don't have any sneakers. How many brothers do you have? I got two younger brothers they still good Yeah, that's still good one lives down south with my mom and the other lives in New York. He lives in Harlem Oh, yeah, yeah, and did they come to the scene of movie? Not any good a chance. They work a lot Yeah, maybe they're gonna get there to see it. They're gonna get there

Yeah, so it goes from you know defending your brother to what? Defending my brother like I said, I start taking these niggas and stuff like that. Just turned into smeeze just robbing people Yeah, me going to take what I want. Yeah, I mean in the doc You said that you didn't you were pretty specific about who you robbed. Yeah, I was out. This is me justifying robbery again This is me saying that I'm right because you only want to rob drug dealers I'm right because you only want to rob drug dealers. That's it. I'm not robbing a working person I'm not I'm not sticking up the store. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this is bad money all around I'm saying my justification was like if you out in these streets and you doing this dirt right here You need to know what's a wolf out here. Yeah, you're gonna feed the wolf or pay the wolf, right?

I'm gonna do right. Yeah.. You don't just come out here and pick gold off the streets and go home. Yeah. That's not what's going on. Yeah, you're in that business, I'm in the business of taking your business. Yeah. Right.

So me justifying it again, you know. Yeah, but there's that, I guess there's that code that I think is hard for, you know, people who have not experienced that understand that there is a code to the whole thing. Like, I mean, how do you not get killed robbing drug dealers? Because you gotta be tough. The drug dealer ain't the one you got to worry about.

It's the guy he pays to be the shooter. Yeah, oh, right, right. And that can happen easy. That can happen easy. So are you amazed that you didn't get shot? Amazed that I'm still here. Amazed that I made it this far. Cause there's been situations where I've been caught

with no gun, and I had to bluff my way out of that. Well, there you go. That was your first performance. Yeah. Yeah. Good boy. Well, I think that was in the movie too, that like I noticed that, you know,

in how you were able to access, because it turns out, I mean, you're not a killer. Nah. So, but there's that moment where you stand off to him for the first time to set those boundaries, and I'm like, this guy's a killer. You know what I mean? Because you got that look in your eye,

like that dead look, but you had to know how to do that. But see, I drew from a lot of the experiences that I've seen. Yeah. A lot of, I've been around for a long time. Know a lot of things. I've seen, I know the behavior. I know the mannerisms. From before jail. Before jail and jail, in prison. I know the behaviors and mannerisms because I've witnessed a lot. So I drew from that and my own experiences, you know? Yeah, so like when you, in terms of that,

in terms of having that hyper-vigilant perception, so you can pretty much clock a guy who's bad news pretty quick. Yes, yes. Like you know a killer when you see one. Wolves know wolves. It's a reason why tuna fish don't swim with sharks. Yeah, yeah.

They're both predators. But they do have to share the ocean. Yeah, wolves know wolves. It's a reason why tuna fish don't swim with sharks. Yeah, yeah. They're both predators. But they do have to share the ocean. Yeah, they gotta share the ocean. That mean you know when to leave when I come. But it's interesting, because there's like a spectrum of wolf. But I guess part of the whole,

in terms of like getting evolving as an actor anyways, but just at a survival, you've gotta convince the really bad wolf that you're just as bad. That you belong. Yeah. And then there's an understanding sometimes? Listen, nobody wants to go where it's gonna be

a difficult meal, not even a real wolf. They'd rather take an easy meal. Yeah, yeah. Opposed to another wolf. You wanna just run up on something that'll eat you too. Right, right. Has the capability of eating you too. There's an understanding, you go eat over there.

There's a bunch of sheep over there, why come over here, messing with another wolf? So how long was it, were you robbing? Robbing as far as in the streets. Yeah. It was a pretty long time, the 80s, probably from the mid 80s. Yeah, how old were you when you got busted?

On this one, 29 years old. I came home 47. Oh my God. You said in that documentary where you got out, it was a great moment, cause you're just looking around and the filmmaker goes, what are you gonna do now? Get some food, get some food.

Get something to eat. Get something to eat. Well, of course. Boy, man, after I saw that prison food and you were eating peanut butter and jelly, you were ready to eat. What did you eat? Well, we went to someplace on 14th Street,

right by the Saboteur Film. Yeah. Because Nick and Dave are the guys who did the documentary. Yeah, so we went right around there in the Meatpacking District and I had a really nice steak, bro. Yeah.

Aw, man, best steak ever. They didn't film that? I don't know, I don't know. They may have that somewhere. I think Nick and Dave may have that because we filmed everything so the other thing that when I talked to Ali also was about like the you know, the the humanity of Of getting into prison because when you when you only see it from from movies and TV shows

You just assume that you know right away. It's gonna be like obviously it's a fucking nightmare on one level But there's a full spectrum of people in there. Right, it's not like that every day, all day long. I don't even get into prison movies because I can't see me in them. Yeah, yeah. I was in prison and never watched prison movies. Never.

Because I don't see me in them. But when you went in, I guess on some level, there's an understanding that there was a good chance it was gonna happen. And you know that. But you made that choice when you picked up the gun the first time. You knew that.

You knew that this could happen. Or you was playing games. Yeah, and so what happens when you get in there for that four years before you find this program? I mean, what was the adjustment? Like when you get in there, you know in your head that you gotta stay a wolf. Got to.

Yeah. And that's the adjustment. Yeah. Life don't change. The story don't stop because baby boy got popped. There's just more wolves in there. Yeah.

They're all in there. And there's a lot more sheep too. Oh yeah? Yeah. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. So you just figure out the dynamic?

Yeah. So when you got in there, where you, like, cause he was talking about, you know, he had this thing where he said, you go under the blanket. Where like, you know, well it's not, I don't think that's a term,

but he said the guys that get in there, it takes them a little while to know that they're in there. And that they gotta, you know, they gotta process it, and then they gotta be like, all right, so now what? Is that the same experience? Not for me, I mean, I went through that knowing I would, I went through trial, I went to trial, so during trial I started. What is that? when you go to when before you get sentenced?

Yeah, trial. Yeah, go to it like John Gotti went to trial first. Oh, okay. Like you go to trial with a court judge Oh trial. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I did that first and during that part I realized that this was the reality of my situation Yeah, and they and what you had public defender, how'd you go? Pretty much public defender, yep. And you had to do a deal? Nah, I didn't do no deals. Y'all gotta get this to me. Yeah.

I didn't do this, but y'all gotta give it to me. Yeah, yeah. And so when you get in there, I mean, is there somebody, do you look for allies immediately or do you just try to establish yourself? I mean, there is no real blueprint that one could give you to say this is... There's no book.

There's no book. There's no way to navigate that without actually going through it. You're gonna have to... Know how to day one. Afraid not. Well, what was your experience? My experience was when I first got to the jail, when I got my bedroll in the state shop and on my way to the cell that I was assigned, there was a I first got to the jail when I got my bed roll in a state shop and on my way to The cell that I was assigned there was a trail of blood in the hallway that nobody cleaned up

I'm purpose walking. I mean this is because the incident is fresh. Oh, right happy Yeah, they got to get together to get the blood splatter crew and all that. Oh, yeah Yeah, you know, it's a whole thing. Everybody can't just clean blood. You need a blood splatter crew that does that. Yeah. And is that a prisoner job? That's a prisoner's job, yeah. That's a prisoner's job. But they're trained in no, they do.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, all of them. So that's your welcome. That's the welcome. Yeah. Now I walk, as soon as we're following the trail of blood, we get into the block, open these big gates and there's tears on top of tears.

Noise everywhere. Everybody moving around. Sing Sing? Sing Sing, yeah. Everybody moving around. There's no, I'm thinking there was some type of police control. Yeah, yeah.

Got the guys in their cells or something. No such thing. Everybody's moving everywhere. The blood's still on the ground. The blood leads to the cell that I'm going in. Yeah, yeah. So you're thinking like, this is not a lucky cell. This is where it happened.

I said, this can't be good luck, right? No way. And I gotta wait for them to clean it out and all that. Then I gotta go in and clean it out myself. Yeah, and set up. And set my thing up. And that's, this is my, while I'm listening to everything on the gate,

all the noise, all the confusion, and it stinks like hell in here. And so what locks into your head is just to maintain your composure and to like, you know, hold your ground immediately? What locked into my head is just survival. Yeah. Like anytime else.

Yeah. Anywhere else. Yeah. Survival. I'm going to deal with every situation as they come. Yeah. And that's what you did? That's what I did.

And you got to figure out a hustle for yourself? Yeah, I had to figure out. The first thing I had to do was stop smoking cigarettes. Hard, right? Cigarettes is money. Yeah. The more you smoke, the more you lose. So you haven't smoked since? No, I haven't smoked since. I love the nicotine man.

Yeah, I had to stop that because once you open the pack it's no longer money. It's a dead pack now. You might as well smoke all 20 of those. You can't sell singles? You can't sell them. No, not in there. They're not selling singles. They sell roll-ups, but that take the money too long. So what are the, how do you make money in there? Oh man, Sing Sing, anything you want in New York, you could have got it in Sing Sing at the time I was there. Anything.

You want it in New York, you could have got it in Sing Sing. When I first got there, it was crazy. Really? So people just bringing stuff in and then there's an understanding? How do you get stuff in? Everybody's getting paid off? I'm not here to reveal all the secrets of individuals that may be still making a living off this thing here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're just saying that the business was the business. The business was the business, just like out here, man. Same thing, man. Same rules apply. So when you finally when you come upon that scene in the chapel what was your state of mind like? Well my mindset when I seen this was that it turned something on in me because like when I was younger I never was into sports I never was I never I was more into art.

I was more into art. Really? I liked to draw. I liked to paint. I liked things like that. Where'd you learn how to do that when you were a kid? This is natural. I came from, I like to read comic books. Oh, yeah. I love comic books and I began drawing the characters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's when I found that this calms me. Yeah, this right here puts me in touch with something different.

Yeah, you know and when I seen this when I seen the guys putting on a play it's it activated that in me Yeah, it took me back to that. Yeah art art part. Yeah of me, but like in your mind You didn't think you were getting out. I didn't know for sure. I had had 20 years sentence Yeah, tomorrow was not promised in prison at all 20 years. Definitely is not promised in prison So and I don't got no backup bend bend over or bow down in me, so. So you're just gonna stay, you know, furious. Right. Yeah.

Until I found the art. But when you were in that zone, did you experience, because it seemed like there's a moment there in the character in the movie too that you play, and I imagine in most guys who have to maintain a front to just survive, that vulnerability is a liability. It is.

Empathy is a liability, you know? Yeah, but did you feel you're perceived in the wrong light, it could be detrimental. On a lot of levels. Right. Did you feel yourself though, when you were younger, when you're on the streets, did you have those things? I knew what they were.

I knew what empathy was, but I didn't know the word for it. Right, but you had the feelings though? I had the feelings, and I couldn't explain it, couldn't express it, but I remember times when like, let me explain, one time I was in a car with my mom, I was much younger and we was driving along and she hit a raccoon.

And she looked over in her seat, after she hit the raccoon's drive-still, she looked over in her seat and said, what are you crying for? Yeah, it's terrible. It was terrible for me. I was like, I got hit by the car. I can't take it. The raccoon did nothing for me. It was like I got hit by the car. I can't take it.

The raccoon did nothing. He just crossed the street and got hit. On the phone I get all these cat rescue, and I'm like, oh my God. Cause they're so innocent, you know? Yeah, now me, a guy that could fight anybody to hurt an animal, man, that's innocent, did nothing, man, it tears me up.

Yeah, it tears me too. It'll tear me up. You think that you feel worse for them than you do for people. Right, cause people made choices. People gotta come in. Right, Cuckoo's just trying to get across the street. So how does it go?

So you see Cuckoo's and as you see the women, and then you're like, how do I get in? Yeah, that's pretty much how it went. Yeah, and what we're in who'd you talk to who was in charge? Well, it might have been Devon G the first person. Oh, yeah to about getting into the movie Yeah, the one G's represented by Coleman Domingo. That's who he's playing. Yes, and what was his what was his role at that time? How long it is around you at that time? He was the man in RTA He's the guy that was right in place direct in place Acting in place. Yeah, the go-to guy. Yeah, is he still in there? No, he's not with us. Oh, yeah

He's been the southwest with us. He's been all the Everywhere and he's got a cameo in the film. Which one is he? He's the guy that got his book signed by Coleman Domingo Oh, that's nice So he actually wrote that book. Yeah, I wrote 12 or 13 books while he was in prison. Yeah, most of them are published now Oh, yeah, he's doing all right. He's doing all right So when you when you talk to him was it was it similar to what happened in the film? Actually, it was actually I believe it was him that approached me. Yeah.

But he didn't know how I already had the feeling that I wanted to be in this thing. Oh, well he saw you in the movie, he sees you running around doing your hustles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And one part about the movie that's not as accurate as it would be, me and Devon G. are already were friends. Oh, okay.

We already knew one another. We already had a healthy, struggling competition with each other that was kind of like a healthy thing. It wasn't a competition that was detrimental or violent, anything like that. It's just that, and that brought out the best in both of us, I think. So what happens is you get in there

and then you guys start doing the exercises and start reading this stuff. So how hard was it to let go in order to do that? Well for me, I believe coming into RTA, I always took a protective stance about the individuals that was in there and the program itself, because a lot of the brothers that was in RTA

were not as strong as I was, as far as being able to hold yourself in the yard and stuff like that. Everybody's not wolf material. But I always take a protective stance over it, and I think that made me more empathetic and more sympathetic towards my brothers. And that put me in a position where I got

on the steering committee and began to be a decision maker for the program, a part of the decision making process for the program and that responsibility that they gave me showed me that they believed in me enough. And I think that jump started a certain belief that I had got in myself. So by the time you got in there, you were okay with being vulnerable. By the time I got in, I think that's something

that gradually grew, I don't think it just turned on like that as soon as I got in there. Because even as a performer myself, you know, the feeling of, for some reason being embarrassed is the worst fucking thing in the world. Yeah, it is. Unless it's a purposeful, unless it's a purpose for it.

Like in acting on stage, I could trip, fall, make everybody laugh. But it's a purpose of that trip and fall. You did on purpose. In the story. To complete the story. It has something to do with the whole story. And that reasoning, that what you would consider being embarrassed with, would be an embarrassment.

Sure, because you do it on purpose, you got control. Just purposely or unconsciously trip and fallumbling, and look crazy in the yard? No good. Not good. Not good. The other wolves make note. We saw that, we saw that guy, we saw him inside. We saw what he's made out of.

Yeah, there was a guy, there's a guy, Harry Shearer, who's a comic, an actor, he said, the reason comedians do comedy is so you can control why people laugh at you. They're gonna laugh anyway. Right, but you might as well, you want it to be on purpose. But I just thought there was that moment where somebody who has a certain posture is reading something

or doing an audition and not knowing or having control or being skilled at it, that's gotta make or break some guys. Listen, there's been times where I was affected by the heckles from the crowd. Yeah. So much that I had to go holla at the dude that was doing the heckling.

Couldn't let go. Another time in the yard somewhere, listen, you got something you wanna say to me or something? Yeah. You don't like something I said or something? Ha ha ha ha. Another infraction. Yeah, but you gotta let that stuff roll off your back.

But you gotta learn how to do that. Yeah, because you gotta learn how to do that. It's hard. What made it a lot easier for me is realizing that a lot of times they're not laughing at me. It's something that they missing. Yeah, it's something that They're covering up for with this laughter. This laughter is covering something else. Yeah. Well, yeah It's a it's cool to poke your finger at me right at me

Yeah, but it's something about you that means you have that response. Yeah, it's sometimes the laughter can mean a lot of things It could be sadness. It can be just a relief thing, right? So when you get in there and you start to feel these feelings, what was the moment, like what was the role where you realized that you could live through these bigger moral issues through a character? Where you actually connected and said like,

oh I get this, I get how this introduces me to a way of thinking that I did not possess before. Right, right. Yeah. Well, I got into that possibly with Oedipus. I think Oedipus did that for me. And Booster, when I did Booster for August Wilson's Jitney. Yeah.

Yeah, it's like stepping in some shoes that I'm very, very familiar with. Yeah. And the power of giving somebody else more insightful guide to how to navigate themselves through certain situations that I possibly been through, studied before, or observed, and now I have a better insight on,

to be able to give other people some type of navigation through that. I think that was the purpose of theater in the first place. Yeah. To connect people and show them that you're not the only one going through whatever you're going through. Right, and some things are like,

these stories reveal the full range of the emotional experience, right? Or the moral experience. So once you start doing it, how is it received on the yard? I mean like do guys say like oh shit you did that good thing or do they look as mixed emotions? I'd have had killers come to me with tears in their eyes talking about listen man let me know when you're gonna do some shit like that.

I'm supposed to be in here crying like this. to be in here crying like this. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha In some capacity for years. I was part of the steering committee for years too. Yeah. Once you know, my commitment grew. Yeah. My responsibilities expanded. Yeah. I got on the steering committee and I'm a decision maker. Yeah.

My decisions are respected and at least my opinion is valued. And now you have some sort of sense of how theater works too. Right, right. And you could probably run a theater if you wanted to. Possibly, yes, I probably could. Because you guys, they do everything, right?

Yeah, we do everything. They build the sets, and you find guys you're gonna do that, it's like real old school theater. Yeah, yeah, we get the shop, the build any set we like. Yeah. That gets everybody, that's what expands the people in RTA program because everybody doesn't wanna be on stage. Right.

However they do wanna contribute. Right. Everybody's not built for the spotlight. That's not what they want. Yeah. But they wanna contribute. Yeah, and there was something in the doc that, you know, just to, like some guys were like,

I don't care what we do, I just want to be out of these clothes. Get out of them greens. Yeah. For a little while, put on some real clothes, man. It's a big deal. It's a big, it's a huge deal. Yeah.

You got a lot coming in. Yeah, man, I don't understand. How long have you been out here? In LA? I got here yesterday. Have you been out here? In LA? Yeah. I got here yesterday. Have you been out here before a lot? Nah, never. Never?

Never been out here before. So how does it feel to be in show business? Man, this is crazy. Really? I think the huge part of the excitement, everything is just to be received as well as I'm being received. Yeah?

For the story to be received Yeah, and what like what kind of things you doing you meeting with big shots? Well, I mean I couldn't tell you that you're a big shot I mean with a lot of good people I know that yeah If people was to just rely on the stories that they hear about this industry or the people that's involved in the industry I'm sure it wouldn't be yeah, they would they wouldn't see this picture that I'm seeing. Yeah, I haven't experienced any of that I only experienced a lot of good people so far. Well, you're in a great project, you know, it's one of those projects You know for whatever reason there's very few people that mean like that. Fuck that movie What kind of asshole So for whatever reason, there's very few people that are gonna be like, fuck that movie. You know? Yeah.

What kind of asshole? Yeah, there's goddamn prisoners doing a good thing. Who needs that shit? So you're probably avoiding those guys. Yeah, yeah, I'm avoiding those guys. But you're getting well received as an actor. Yes, I am. When you got out, after you had the steak,

I guess you went home and saw you probably saw your brothers and your mom. Everybody, family, everybody. Yeah. What what were you thinking? Like, well, I'm going to do what? Well, I knew I wanted to act at that. Yeah. It was still it was still hot off the press at that time. Yeah. Just coming down off a dramatic escape.

You had to move the dock. So, yeah, my thing is time. Just coming down off of dramatic escape. You had to move the dock, yeah. So yeah, my thing is I want to get in front of the camera. This is when the reality that, you know, bills got to get paid right now. Right. And also like in that last production, were you actually in A Few Good Men?

Yes, I was, no, I was on the steering committee and I was involved. I was on my way home. Right. So I didn't take a role because we didn't know exactly what they were doing. Then I just ended up having to stay anyway. That was an interesting little story point in the doc

where they fucked up the paperwork. But you know, I knew what I saw in that moment was like, you know, if you were a younger man and you hadn't had the experience you had, you might have fucked yourself Yeah, somehow I went crazy in there. This is crazy shit right locked up again, right? Yeah, that was like that. That's a powerful moment because you knew like you know you would you'd Actualized your full humanity, so you weren't gonna let the thing that fucks you fuck you right?

It's a good moment. Right, and how I seen it was like, at that time it was a lot of guys, not only in RTA but a lot of guys in the prison that looked up to me at this point, and I couldn't. Oh, yeah, you had to do the right thing for other people. Yeah, I had to do the right thing. There's also others that would be like,

look, look, I told you, see? I knew he was going to do that. That was here for a long time. We get more plays now. So you had responsibilities when he got out. Yeah. And so how did you integrate back into the world? Well basically just, you know, I stayed in contact with individuals that was like-minded

and positive and on the track that I'm on like we have We got now a whole network. Okay. Yeah, what's a between between RTA Exodus? Hudson link. Yeah, these are all programs that was in Singsing and all of us like leaned on each other Yeah, so there's a whole community of us out here. Yeah, and that's where I found a lot of times where I needed employment I can go to various places over here. I can go to Exodus. I can go to Hudson Link or Rehabilitation to the Arts. Set up some type of, you know,

where I go do some teaching or whatever, do a speaking engagement over here. Just to help along the way with these financial woes that we all have. Yeah, and it didn't work? It worked, it worked. It kept me sane, It kept me in between jobs I didn't have to worry too much because I had a network that was working with me even Brent Bue even I've even our volunteers

You know me yeah, I could lean on them too. Yeah at that time Yeah, cuz you knew them cuz yeah, and they know me right had built these bonds and we trust one another and is that how You got hooked up with you kept kept doing the workshops and stuff? Yeah, yeah, kept doing, but see, and then I got a job through Exodus. What's that? Exodus is another program that helps brothers that come home from prison,

find employment, help them get their resumes together. Even if you need a suit of clothing to go and interview them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I got hooked up with them, and they sent me on a job interview to Lincoln Hall, Boyshaven. Yeah.

And I got a job there, and I stayed there for like 11 years. So when you come out though, like you went in when you were 26, you come out and you're- I went in at 29, 47. 47. So like maybe I'm wrong,

but I mean like no matter how you were feeling about yourself and your prospects when you got out, I would imagine that whatever the streets were as you knew them, long gone. Not the same. Yeah. You got Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck on 42nd Street.

What is this? So there wasn't, like you didn't walk in, there wasn't a bunch of dudes going, he's back. Nah, nah. Because you were young and they're all gone. Nah, they're not all gone. They're just around. There was a few of them around.

Oh yeah? Yeah. What'd they say? They didn't wanna say much. They're hoping I took this route. Oh they do? It's a good thing that I, that everybody, nobody wants or needs me in the street

the way I used to be. Yeah. That's not good for nobody. Especially you. Especially me. I don't wanna leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you start doing this work, like, are you, like,

cause now, like, it looks like, to me, you know, that you might have a career as an actor. And then- Hopefully. Yeah, but, you know, how does that play against the service work? Well, I still do the service work. In fact, on Juneteenth, I'm going to SoHo and do some readings with some kids in that area.

Yeah. I still work with 914 United. We go into different facilities and speak to young men who are justice impacted, you know, facing some time, you know, because of choices they made. Yeah. So, I try to get them, I'm a certified national gang trainer as well. I get individuals out of gangs.

Really? How do you get that training? I got trained, I had to take a, it's a program that you have to take, you have to pay for and get trained by, you know, Christian Claudio. He's a very that you have to take, you have to pay for it and get trained by Christian Claudio, he's a very good friend of mine, he's an ex-gang leader. He's King Smurf from the Latin Kings. And he does non-police officer certificate, non-law enforcement certificate for guys like us who have a particular skill set.

We know these streets, we know this language, you know what I'm saying? Our names still mean something on these streets. So we come to help. Are the gangs still as powerful as they used to be? Not as much. Now they're losing their grip. Why is that? I believe, I believe because I think the younger kids that's coming up behind them are a lot

more intelligent than the ones that fell victim to this. That's the only way it's gonna go away. It's nothing that, the only way it's gonna go away is they choose. They're gonna have to choose to do better. They're choosing their phones. Yeah. Yeah.

Over the streets. It's one of the benefits of technology. That's a fact. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that process. How do you get a guy out of a gang? Well, they had a want to leave. They got a want to leave. And sometimes they can't.

Sometimes they can't. That's when they need intervention. But they can't because they owe something or somebody else got something on them? There's many reasons why. It's never one solid reason. Yeah. You know, never know what it is.

But they may need intervention. And when you intervene though, I mean, there's no witness protection program. No. So they've gotta sort of suck up whatever's gonna come at them and hope for the best, right? Yeah, that's pretty much what it is. Yeah.

But once you say you wanna be out, you gotta really, really wanna be out. There's no going back and jumping the fence and straddling the fence. You're on your own. You do that, you're on your own. In general, do... Is there that thing like you just said before

about the guys that you knew when you were younger, do you find that a lot of times, if somebody is able to get out, that the people that can't kind of respect it. The people that can't get out? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, more times than not, because if they was to open the doors

and let all of them out, they'll leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll leave the gang. If you allow them to leave, they'll leave. Yeah, so the ones that do leave, it takes a certain amount of balls to do that. Yeah. And they've gotta be like, all right.

You gotta be serious, you to be dedicated to getting out and living without a gang. Yeah, but sometimes it's life threatening, isn't it? Yes, it is sometimes. Oh my God. It's still your choices though. Yeah, yeah. But sometimes there's a choice of doing what you need to do

for yourself to save your life, but sometimes that life is gonna be looking over your shoulder for the most part. Sometimes it may involve relocating, sometimes it may involve that, because their reach of them are not as far and vast as you would believe. They're not as connected as you would believe.

One region of the planet may not even know the other, but the other planet exists. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's another problem with the phone. There's like, found him on Instagram. Yeah, then you gotta stay off Instagram. You might wanna stay off for that. If your head is on a chopping block,

you might wanna not be on Instagram, posting your location. Yeah, don't be an influencer, an ex-gang influencer. So what do you find is the rate rate of Of success with the kids usually it's not as much it's not as high a rate as I would like I mean I am in my travels. I have got a matter of gangs and now they're in college Yeah, these things like that. There's individuals who have gotten out and went to the military Yeah, there's this individuals who got now andated. But what overshadows that is that the percentage of individuals that fall,

that don't take advantage of opportunities presented to them because of whatever reason, peer pressure or whatever. And then later on I have to hear that that individual got killed. Or that individual killed somebody and now he's locked up. That's hard, right? It's hard and it'd be sad, especially if you invest, when you invest a lot of time into a young person,

and you see the growth and development, and you see the potential, and then you gotta send them right back out to the sharks. But you gotta, I guess that's something else you learn from growing up the way you did and doing time, is that you get kinda calloused, you know, you can feel the feels, but then you gotta. But see, that's another thing that benefits from RTA program

is the ability to decompress. The ability to let your day wash off you. Oh yeah. You know what I'm saying, because I can't go to sleep with this every night, wake up tomorrow morning with it on my mind. Again, I gotta be able to decompress and I gotta be able to. Put and I got to be able to put in the perspective put everything in perspective

compartmentalize all of these things I had to learn how to do in order to be effective in dealing with these kids Well, I guess that's something that because I noticed that too in the way the guys were talking in the doc that you know I imagine when you're doing time, that having a resentment or a beef or a revenge plan, that's, your brain just has something to do. Yeah, but there's a lot more to do. That's what I mean. So if you're memorizing lines,

and that becomes because- That takes the place of focusing on negative energy, like focus on negative thoughts. Cause if you just go to the yard and back to your cell, your yard, back to your cell, nothing else on your mind but yard stuff, this is all you're gonna ever, this is as big as your world is gonna be.

It's only how big your world gonna be. Yeah, right. And then if you gotta memorize lines, there's a couple things going like, you wanna do it right, so you wanna do, so those guys are memorizing those lines. Yes. Like I noticed that in the scenes from A Few Good Men,

it's like, they were on top of it. Like, they knew all those lines, because it's, what else are they gonna do? Right, but embody the role. Right. God, it must be such a relief. It is, because you get to express all the emotions that you really want to express.

Well that guy- And you got permission to do it. The guy in the doc who played Jessup. Yeah. He's working some big shit out, dude. Yeah. That's my boy Kenyatta, he's a great guy too. Yeah, I mean he's like, you know,

he's got, you know, he's owning his shit and he's finding a way to be human in that shit and to understand his place. And that is the reward is knowing who you are, what you did and, you know, what those consequences were and finding a quality of life within that. That's a fact. consequences were and finding a quality of life within that. That's a fact. Because I guess what happens when you do the acting is all of a sudden you start to look at yourself

from a different perspective. Yeah, you have to. And he's talking about either you got religion, but I'm not a religious guy, so you gotta find some other thing. And then also he's struggling. He found it in the cold. Yeah.

And then he's struggling with this idea that like, I know I got this thing I do that's no good, but I can't just stop it. And I gotta figure out how to stop it. That scene in the movie where that guy comes up behind your character, you're like, what are you doing? Yeah. That's a real thing in prison, man.

Yeah. Yeah, man. I don't want nobody behind me. I see too many people get cut in the face from the back. Yeah. And that was like one of those moments where, because all the guys who are prisoners, they know exactly what's going on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you gotta have at least a couple of them in there that gotta say, it's not real. And then you gotta process that. So that really happens. Yeah, it really happens. Oh my God. And then once people start getting,

well it's interesting that you drew the idea that a lot of the people that are drawn to the program are not the wolves. Right, right. And they're the guys that are lot of the people that are drawn to the program are not the wolves. And they're the guys that are gonna have a hard time anyways, and they find some safety. Yeah, but see what happens with those guys, when they just, they suppress a lot of the good in them that we need, because you try to make yourself invisible,

not heard, not seen. If you're not a wolf, you want to disappear. Right, but heard, not seen. You don't want to attract no attention really. You want to disappear. Right, but they got a lot to offer these guys. Sensitivity. Yeah. Yeah, and who's the other guy in a few good men in the documentary who no one even heard him talk before?

That guy who was real quiet, and then he just like, he's going at it. He played the drill sergeant, I think. Oh yeah, yeah, oh my God. This was the first role that he ever had. Yeah. Man, and when he came and gave up that performance right there, because all through the jail, we never hear.

You never hear him talk, bro. Yeah. So he must have been the rock star. He was a rock star at that moment, man. You don't know how many offices wanted his autograph and all of that after that. Because he was one of the invisible guys. Yeah.

Yeah. So what's the plan now? What are you going to do? Are you getting offers and stuff? Yeah, I got a few offers, man. I want to do a Western, man. Man for, I wanna do a Western, man. Man, man, I wanna do a Western, man, bad. I need a Duster, two guns, and horse riding.

That's what you want? Yeah. Is any of that available? I don't know, I mean, I got Mark looking at some, my manager Mark from MGMT. Yeah. We got a few scripts to look at. So we're gonna see that.

Have you looked at any of them? Have you seen what they're trying to offer you? Well, actually I haven't because I'm more focused on promoting this movie right now than actually doing something else right at the moment. Sure, sure. But it's exciting, right? It's exciting to even be offered something.

Well I think like, what was it like, these guys who made this movie, it took some time, right? Took like seven years. That's crazy. Seven years, but it took 19 days to film. Yeah. What was the seven years, what were they worried about? Well, it was, you had to run the money up, you know,

it's a lot of things. And then you got COVID in between. Right, right, right. Those years right there, COVID. But they knew they wanted to use guys from the inside who were on the. Yeah, that was always on the table because they had a direct link with Brent Buell.

So, and Brent Buell was the guy who wrote Breaking the Mummy's Code. He's played by Paul Racy. So they had a direct link with him and he has a direct link with all of us. So they was like, well, how about, can we get in touch with any of the guys? The first I thought it was that they just only wanted to hear our perspectives so that they could write down and create a character somewhere. Right, right, right. I didn't, at first I didn't know that they were even interested in using us.

Yeah. But when it came out, it was a no-brainer for me. It was not a question. Yeah, let's go. I can't wait. I know that guy. I can play that guy. Yeah.

Well, that was what was really interesting to me was to see, like, cause I was talking to Brendan about it, you know, like, uh, to see you and Domingo, you know, using whatever you've learned, like using your acting skills is a whole different thing, you know, like yours is like organic and he's got a big, he's got to get into it. And you're like, yours is like organic, and he's gotta get into it. And you're like, I was in it. I did this already. But was that all your training with that program? Basically, or?

Basically, yeah, I never thought about acting before anything like that, before the RTA program. But you never took any classes or nothing after like you got out or like the polish of it? No, no, no. You just do it. During the time of RTA inside I have a lot of volunteers that came to like Joanna Chan she has her own theater troupe okay in China yeah and like you know I learned from, ah, man, Peter Barbiaro. He worked in Westchester County at the theater. And there's a lot of theater people from Broadway

that were involved in the training that came to the prison, a lot of volunteers. So you were doing a lot of exercises and that kind of stuff? Yeah, a lot of exercises. I had a lot of great advice on how to play roles, how to get into character. I had a lot of great advice. how to play roles, how to get into character. I had a lot of great advice. I wouldn't say any formal training.

But that's all it is though. That is formal training. Every actor, you know this, either you're instinctively going to do it. Right. If you've got it in you, you're going to do it, and you're going to be good at it, and you just maybe need a few tricks.

Yeah, they taught, I really learned how to listen more. That's the whole thing, right? I learned how to listen more and pay attention to, because as I come into acting, I know that I don't have the broad picture in mind. I only have my role in mind. But the director and the producers, these guys, have the vision of the whole thing.

So they gotta tell you, it's not all about you. It's not about me. They don't have to tell me that, I know already. I know, but I wanna do my part as best I can. I gotta pay attention. Yeah, and listen and also know when it's, you know, you don't have to steal the scene. Why, why?

All that shit. Right. So you're getting advice from all these different, you know, you don't have to steal the scene. Why, why? All that shit. Right. So you're getting advice from all these different, you know, professional people. Yeah. Coming in telling you this or that. Yeah.

And you kinda integrate it. It's just me paying attention now. Yeah, yeah. Me applying now. Yeah, yeah. That's all on me now. Yeah. Well, you did great.

It was great. And I really appreciate you coming, man. Yeah, man, I appreciate you. Good to talk to you. Great to meet coming, man. Yeah, man, I appreciate you. Good to talk to you. Great to meet you, man. There you go. Good story, right? Sing Sing opens in theaters tomorrow, July 12th. The documentary, Dramatic Escape,

can be streamed on Vimeo. Hang out for a minute, folks. I'm Sarah Milroy, director of the McMichael Canadian Art Collection in Kleinberg. If you love impressionism, you'll love what we have on view this summer at the gallery. River of Dreams, Impressionism on the St. Lawrence, features more than 150 sublime works by some of Quebec's most beloved artists. Join us for a journey down the St. Lawrence and see how impressionism flourished in this country a century ago. Buy your tickets today at mcmichael.com, home to the art of Canada.

Hey everyone, we are Kat Napp from the Kat Natt Unfiltered Podcast and we're here to tell you about a very special episode presented by Airbnb and Ecast Creative. We recorded with Jessie Cruikshank from her Airbnb. and filtered podcast and we're here to tell you about a very special episode presented by Airbnb and Ecast Creative. We recorded with Jessie Cruickshank from her Airbnb. Spoiler, it was gorgeous. We talked family, vacations, MTV gossip, and you know, just had some good old

unfiltered girls time. I was raised on boy bands. So like I always wanted the hot blonde one. And then on the hills, Brody Jenner, I was like openly thirsting for Brody Jenner at all times. Tune in to our LA Shenanigans wherever you get your podcast. Hey people, we posted another WTF rarity

for Full Maron subscribers. It's a live show from 2010 we called The Night of Many Jews, featuring me, Susie Essman, Jeff Garland, Joe Mandi, and Gary Goldman. You all right, buddy? Do we need to get you a special chair? You know, I should take this out. Sure, go ahead.

Look at the size of this Jew. How often does that happen? And he's, and he's like attractive. Look at that. Him and I, we get this mixture between math Jew and composer Jew, and you're like, you're like sports Jew. You're I, we get this mixture between, you know, math Jew and composer Jew. And you're like, you're like sports Jew. You're like, what are you? Where the fuck did you come from?

It's like Gaston, the Jewish Gaston. Yeah, I don't even fit in amongst the Jews. It's very... But you have that, the quality of your head is Jewish. Yeah, I'm a hook nose Jew, so... Right, and the whole thing is Jewish. I've met a couple of tall Jews. I'm 6'6", and ripped. Do you play sports now? No, no. I played football in college. I was really good in high school, but then I wasn't so good in college.

You see how to let it go? Did I start off wrong? No, no, that's fine. Are you upset about it still? Did you have dreams of being like the next Sandy Koufax of football? You can't talk to a Jew about sports for six seconds without Sandy Koufax coming up.

It's so, we have like three go-tos, Houdini, Koufax, and Jonas Salk, and that's how we... See? You need us! Don't kill us! We have left-handed pitchers, they're not easy to find! And we cured polio, and we escape things, and... Had I known Fonzie was Jewish growing up. Oh We can hit things and they'll turn on To get all the rare WTFs and other bonus episodes we post every week sign up for the full Marin Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast. Here's some guitar that I

did a while ago. So I'm gonna be a good boy. So Boomer lives, Monkey and La Fonda, Cat Angels everywhere.