WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1557 - Dan St. Germain

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

It’s been a long time since Dan St. Germain had his first big gig as an opener with Marc in Sacramento. As the years have gone by, Dan took a few breaks from standup, worked as a writer on several TV series, dealt with the heartbreak of a declining parent, and struggled with sobriety. Dan tells Marc how he managed to pull things together, get clean and self-release his latest comedy special. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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misfirst ever cookbook the new kitchen for one hundred healthy and delicious recipes to promote better living available to buy now wherever books are sold All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking adians? What's happening?

I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast WTF. Welcome to it. I'm in Vancouver, Canada. I know I've been up here a lot lately. I'm going home in a couple of days. You know, it's back and forth a bit, but I've been up here a lot lately I'm going home in a couple days you know it's back and forth a bit but I've been up here pretty pretty steady and as I reported on another day things are going pretty good I'm getting the hang of what is exciting about the job and I hope that you can do that too with

your job if possible. I'm just telling you what's going on with me. But right now, where am I at? Where are you at? How are you feeling? I feel okay in this moment, and hopefully it'll last a few more. It comes and goes. I am at the whims of my dopamine and neural pathways in terms of which ride do I choose to go on, if you know what I'm saying.

But I just had this sandwich, and this is not even a plug, because I don't even know what to tell you, really. Wasn't a complicated sandwich. I toasted up this, there was this pita bread that you can get, Angel brand. Oh my God, it's the best. And I had an avocado that I didn't want to rot entirely They always rot. I don't know I buy them slightly hard and I think like well this will time out

Well, and then I just watched them turn into garbage or compost depending on your ideological lean but I Made this avocado sandwich with toasted pita bread. I cut it open, spread the avocado on one side, and then a fan of mine, Shelly, gave me some S&B umami topping, crunchy garlic with chili oil made in Japan. And this is basically chili crunch with these fried garlic slices in it. And I gotta be honest with you, look, I don't know how long it'll last

in terms of how I feel this way, but right now, I just ate, and I'm talking like 12 minutes ago, one of the best things I've ever put in my fucking mouth. And those things were fleeting, and maybe it won't hold up but I thought I'd share it with you that I took a bite of this thing with the avocado on the sandwich this crunchy garlic chili crunch and holy shit I

don't I'm just kind of I'm trying to hold on to it because that's what I think about a lot of the times folks when the world gets too large for me. I think about nicotine and food Dan st. Germain is my guest today. He was on a live WTF like back in 2010 but he never did a full episode and he's got this new special out called Dan st. Germain dance fatty dance and I've known Dan a long time he trudges the path as I trudged the path and those of you who trudged the path know what I'm talking about and you know we got into it I've been talking to some people that

that do the trudging yet recovering people got a lot of interesting feedback about the Trey on a Stasio episode. Fish fans, a very opinionated bunch, but I'll tell you one thing, Trey loved it, I'll tell you that, and he showed me a post on a board by a fan that he thought really got it, and 95, 96% of them all seemed pretty excited about it, but the ones that don't and the principles they have

around fish and what it means to be a fish fan and their relationship with Trey, pretty interesting stuff. Fairly hostile bunch, some of them, but that's the same with any cult, right? So Dan St. Jermain and I talk about drugs and alcohol as did Trey and I. And I think it's interesting because somebody had posted a comment, you know, just sort of like, why all the drug talk?

I don't do drugs. I don't talk about it. Okay. But let me tell you one thing I know, no matter how you stay sober or whatever you do to get there, it's fine. But when people that people look up to or have on a pedestal or respect talk about not doing drugs or alcohol

or whatever it is that was destroying their life, it helps countless people, countless. I can't even tell you if there's any effect that I can sort of register about what I do on this podcast and what I talk about it's that people who are trying to stay sober off of one thing or another get a tremendous amount of inspiration when they hear people like myself or people I talk to talking about that And I can I see in the emails I see it and hear it when people talk to me So if there's anything I leave this world if I can help somebody do that, that's a fucking miracle a

fucking miracle and I've had fans who have gotten back to me after 10 years sober that said 10 years ago you threw the switch and I can't be any more of service in that in any more tangible way. So if anybody has a problem with talking about addiction or recovery because it's not their thing or they're doing just fine with it can go fuck themselves and I say that with love I say it with total love I also wanted to bring up I just watched a special from a comedian who I've had on years ago very nice guy and a very solid long-form comic I haven't I haven't been in touch

with him I don't know what he's up to, but he did make a very pleasant and funny special with some edge and some heart. His name's Chad Daniels, and it's on Netflix. It's called Chad Daniels, empty Nestor. And you can stream that now. I was just watching it in my trailer, waiting to do the thing. And because I wanted to check in, I have time and I've been, I watch comedy specials. I like to see what thing. And, cause I wanted to check in. I have time and I watch comedy specials. I like to see what people are doing, but I know when they're good. And that Chad Daniels empty nester,

that's a solid special. I'll be in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on Friday, September 20th. Then I'm in Phoenix at the Orpheum Theater on Saturday, September 21st. A lot of dates coming up. Go to WTFpod.com for all those dates. And yeah. Oh, also my HBO comedy special from Bleak to Dark is available as a digital download or as a vinyl EP.

Yep. And the cover is solid. It's solid metal. You can get it on the home page of WTFpod.com or go to CraftRecordings.com and pick it up there. I get the vinyl just for the cover. Very happy with the cover. Many of you know the story behind the cover. It was the day I passed out on the top of the mountain and hit my face on the gravel. It's a it's gonna be a collector's item for those of you who give a shit, but right now it's not because there's still plenty left. I think I'm gonna work out a deal with Kraft so I can I'll sign some and make

those available. It's funny because I haven't really been pushing it that much because I forget about it But it's a very nice recording craft recording That company craft recordings does a lot of great reissues and stuff I'm happy with them and I have many craft recording they they actually I think they were the ones that did that credence clearwater At Albert Hall box. That's fucking awesome. It's weird with the music, huh? Because I, like for some reason, I've just been listening to Metallica's first three records. I was never a Metallica guy, but the last two times I was at the gym, the three times maybe, I'm just plowing through those first three records and listening to some of them twice.

I don't know what switched in my head, but I'm happy to announce that I'm now a 14-year-old boy in 1988. And apparently, I've been shutting that neural pathway down in terms of the possibility of releasing some of that juice through metal and it's happening now. I'm 60. Okay look we all have to spend money and it's summertime so there are things you're spending money on right now that you typically don't have to at other points in the year. Sunblock, summer clothes, vacation expenses, all that stuff. Don't stress out about those extra expenses.

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for trying Ibotta by using the code WTF when you register. Just go to the App Store or Google Play Store and download the free iBotta app to start earning cash back and don't forget to use the code WTF. That's iBotta in the Google Play app or App Store and use code WTF. Yeah, look. So I've been talking pretty nicely, I think, about Canada, my feelings about it, and I admit it, I don't know much about what's going on up here, politically or otherwise, but I enjoy being here, and I enjoy sort of being out of the states a bit,

and I don't think I've made any other implications other than like I'd like to live here, not because it doesn't matter. What I'm saying, all I'm saying is that it was only a matter of time before one of my fans wrote me a very detailed email just about how fucking shitty Canada is on some levels. Inflation bad, There's a housing crisis.

The cost of living is grossly incongruous with median wages, his words. Our leaders are in the pocket of retail and service conglomerates that monopolize the economy. I'm paraphrasing and also quoting him. Taxes are surging, infrastructure weakening. And then even though I said no guns, but he brings up the worst, the eduist mass shooting in Canadian history took place right by his house

Oh, man Geez, and he just his point he says is it feels dire everywhere Well, you in and then he points out that America has definite influence on Canadian policies and culture and everything else has definite influence on Canadian policies and culture and everything else. Wow, what a fucking buzzkill, man. I could have assumed that. And he said, quote, I know you've been conscious to acknowledge the limits

of your Canadian expertise. I just wanted to offer feedback from a citizen who perceives it differently. It's not a pissing match, he says. Canada simply can't be the American ideal or how things ought to be and it can't be America's escape patch And then he says after all of that, I am genuinely thrilled to hear that your time in our country has been comfortable and comforting Not anymore

Thanks pal I don't know if it's America's escape patch might be mine And I certainly didn't think it was the system that we need to have there I wasn't saying that Look, I'm 60. I'm just looking for a way to land this plane in a place that I feel peaceful and happy and I can breathe and my brain is clean if That's possible but thank you for all this information I will never look at it through rose-colored glasses again I

will never romanticize Canada I will not enjoy it the way I did before and I certainly will not idealize it in any way but bottom line still no guns Sorry about that one guy and also hardly anybody lives here I hear you but there's still a lot in the plus column, but you have dirtied my mind about Canada So you've done what you set out to do now now, I know Thank you Colin and this was not aggressive and I know. Thank you, Colin. And this was not aggressive. And I know you're a fan,

but thank you for the reality check, the total buzz kill, and for shifting my brain about loving your country. One other thing I wanna hit hit because something happened today. So, you know, I've got this problem and I am a drug addict, real deal, real deal. And, uh, there are just moments where you realize like, dude, whatever, however you're gonna manage your dopamine, whatever you wanna do, if that's your deal, managing dopamine, there's a spectrum to it. There's some drug addicts around here that are very hardcore,

smoking the fentanyl, smoking the meth, and just the amount of dignity surrendered to appease and get that thing met to meet that particular Satan where he lives so you can get that dopamine going that there that is the far part of the spectrum and it's it's it's ugly and sad but I'll tell you I'm onins. And I don't know if you guys know this, there's a Zin shortage around the world. There's a lot of mythology around the Zin shortage. You can't, you can't get the Zins in America that easily. You can't get flavored ones in California

at all because they're illegal and up here they're impossible to find. And I'm a little strung out, a little strung out on them I've got nicotine gum. I you know, I know what's going on. I've been here before But what happened today is a new place for me. I met a comic this dude He lives here and we were talking at one of the shows I did he does morning radio here, too His name is Alex Carr. And he pulls out some zins, I'm like, dude, where'd you get those?

He's like, I get a mail order. I'm like, what the fuck, I can't find them anywhere. He's like, oh, well, I get a mail order, I got a bunch of them, can I have some? So he gives me the tin he's been working on, and I was like, thanks. And I've been just sort of kind of like trying to, yeah, there's six milligrams. More than I need. I like the threes, but you know, I tried to spread them out and mix them in with the nicotine gum and some other knockoff pouches from China.

So I'm just, I don't even, where are these from what differences make they look they look right But it's fucking naked. It's so stupid. I've been off it before I know where I'm at But like I've got it, you know, I'm not covered, you know, I before I get to LA I need some So like I reach out to this guy Alex Who you know, I don't really know and I'm like dude you holding you got any tins Can you can I buy some off you and he's like, all right, where do you want me to meet you? so What a mensch that guy is

He can't you know, he showed up. I met him downstairs with a couple of tens. We're dollars exchanging cash. Mike, don't give him to me. I'll pay for all of it. We're exchanging cash on the street. He's handing me the little plastic tens of sins. And I'm like, dude fucking save my life, man. I gotta get a handle on this man. I'll quit tomorrow.

It was ridiculous doing a street deal for the nicotine pouches. All right. Look, Dan St. Germain is a good guy. Funny guy. His new special dance fatty dance is now streaming on YouTube. Uh, he also has a new podcast called working stiff, where he talks about

wrestling with other comics and, uh, it was good to talk to him and now you can listen to it. Hey folks, I don't know if you know about this house that I live in now, but one of the reasons I bought it was that the garage had been converted into a room. There was a bathroom put in, there was drywall put on the other side of the door, and basically it was no longer a garage, it was a room. And I thought, oh, well, this is amazing. I'll do my podcast in here. And honestly, aside garage, it was a room. And I thought, oh, well, this is amazing. I'll do my podcast in here.

And honestly, aside from using it as a place to do the podcast, this is now a perfect space to host on Airbnb. Now do a little thought experiment for yourself. Think about where you live. Got extra bedrooms, a guest house, maybe your old house is just very comfortable even when you're not home. While you're away, your home could be on Airbnb. It's easy to do and it's a great way to earn some extra cash.

Maybe you can cover the cost of your summer vacation or fixed out other part of the house that you've been putting off. There's extra money just sitting there. All you got to do is Airbnb it. Don't take my word for it. Check it out. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca. It's good to see you there, Dan. It's good to see you too, dude. I, uh see you too dude. I uh, you know I haven't seen you in a while. You were my first big um, headliner weekend. I was opening for you at the Sacramento Punchline.

That's right. In like 2009 or 10. How did that work out? Was that an Olivia thing? That was an Olivia thing I think, yeah. It was uh, but I was like, you, I was like pumped and also nervous for it. It was like the first, oh my God, this guy's got a whole Times article written about him, you know?

Oh, that was after that? Did we sell well? Was there people there? Yeah, yeah. I think it was sold out every night. I kind of remember that. It was like, you were already, like the podcast was already doing well.

Yeah, that's when you had the long hair and you were kind of. Long hair. And what, were we staying in those condos across the street? Yes, we were staying in the condos. We would go to this Mexican place at lunch and then a guitar center and I'd watch you play. Oh, that's right.

We went to a guitar center. I'm kind of putting it together now. Yeah. I actually, I think I had the creation of like your... I was like, oh, this is probably how he woos women too. I'm never that proud of my guitar playing. I'm one of the few who got into show business not to impress women. But you know, you actually play, I mean, everyone knows this already, but Mark's

like a real guitar player. I can play. Yeah. Actually really play. Yeah. You know, I think it was just a matter of like, I, I, you know what? I remember I was looking for an acoustic guitar. Yes.

And I ended up getting one eventually, but I remember that's what I wanted, that I didn't have an acoustic guitar, and I thought I would go over there and look at new acoustic guitars. I think that was what was going on. How many guitars do you have now? I see two right here. Well, I'm not one of those weird kind of boomer collectors. I try to get them for free. Like that black one I got for free, and that other one I bought out of spite. And I don't know, I don't know how many I have,

but I did buy an old one that I, I just like the ones that I like to play, and I have a lot that I don't really play, and I should just get rid of them. And I got these amps, I love those, they're all old. So you don't give a shit about getting like a signed guitar or anything like that? No, no, no, no, and I don't really give a shit

as guitar is investment, which is really what they do. I think John Bonamassa has completely ruined the vintage guitar market single-handedly by making them legit investments. I mean, if you can dig up these old guitars and find them for a certain price they do, what do you call it, get more valuable as time goes on. Yeah.

Like I knew a guy that was willing to sell everything he had to get like a 56 telecaster or whatever because he knew that in 10 years he would make $20,000. I'm not that guy. Yeah I mean that sounds like a lot of work honestly. Well yeah everything sounds like, I mean that sounds like all like a lot of work honestly Well, yeah, everything sounds like a lot of money. Everything sounds like a lot of work. But um, it sounds like a lot of work I just trying to remember you at that time Yeah, I mean we had the same manager I guess we still do we do yeah, we're still at old Avalon Yeah, nothing Kelly. Yeah, but we started with Olivia. I was with Olivia after Becky.

And that was one of those situations where your manager goes like, yeah, I'm gonna stop managing. And you're like, oh, so. I once had an agent, I'm like, she stopped. I'm like, what are you doing? She goes, going into environmental work. I was like, all right, well, good luck.

I guess I'm proud of you in a way. But what the fuck do I do? I'm glad you got a conscience. Show business enabled you to figure out how soulless the endeavor was. You forget that they're in the middle of their own movie. Oh yeah, of course, you do. I went to the silent retreat once like do you know spirit walk? I'm like no no, I'm like San Fran or all Like one of those like in between writing jobs trying to find myself Yeah, like I get there and then I see a bag like William Morris. Yes, like oh man. You can't fucking get away So somebody here yeah, this silent retreat someone was there. Yeah, Jack Kornfield, it was Jack Kornfield's place.

Jack Kornfield, who's that guy? I know that name. He was one of the guys who brought meditation, one of the big four like him, Sharon Salzberg. So this is something you've pursued. I have, I haven't lately. I'm not, I haven't lately. I fell out of practice, but I had a time

where I was very into it. I should get back to it, but it's very difficult. I mean, for me, it's difficult. I don't know why it is because for me too, like I never really got into it. I know that's part of the deal that you go through, you know, you get into these pockets of ways of thinking. You know, certainly if you play in recovery, where people are like, meditation's worth that. So like over the pandemic, I did sit with like that head, whatever that app is. Headspace.

Headspace. And I was able to kind of do it. And it's really only 15 minutes. And you think like, I don't know if this is working or not, but I think maybe it is. But for some reason, just to put that 15 minutes together a day, it's like, I can't fucking, you know, just to sit. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, and I got, I mean, I don't know, I'm very, I have, I have some form of obsessive

compulsive disorder, not the part that, not like whatever form doesn't make me like good at counting cards, unfortunately, but it's supposed to help with that. I guess it does a little bit, you know. I don't know why I don't make the time to do it. I think that there's a certain type of personality where we're kind of set in the ways of what we do. But you seem pretty, I mean not calm, but you seem a little more centered.

Well, I think I am. Than you were then probably. I think I am centered and I'm trying to be less kind of anxiety driven and crazy and panicky. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's always tough. But I watched a new special. Oh, sweet man.

What, what? And I was trying to figure out like, did you plan it? Of course I planned the special, yeah. Well, that's a fucking ringing endorsement right off the bat. No, no, no. I it was just it was shot in a small club, small club. And like I couldn't tell what was on the background. Well, that's a that's Old Man Hustle. That's the that's the comedy club. They have Brooklyn Comedy Club.

Oh, OK, because I'm like, what is Old Man Hustle? I mean, it's like like something to do with it. It was a conversation I couldn't paint. Oh, like I was like, is this part of the special? Am I missing? You know, like I didn't know. No, no, it's just a small black box theater. I am in my head about it,

so I'm glad you picked that up on that right in the beginning. Sorry Eddie. But no, it's just I couldn't like, you know, like I wanted a place that I could fill. Yeah. Because I funded it. You feel comfortable? Funded it myself.

I'm most, I'm comfortable in most places, but like a place I could fill, honestly, shout out to Sam Black for that. She's awesome. And she just did it as a favor for me, but I knew I could fill it, and I knew that the guy was gonna, God, Ed who owns it, good guy,

he was gonna give it to me for free. So that's why I did it there, but you know, hopefully that doesn't, that people do not watch it. No, I just- I start meditating now in front of you. I just didn't know if that was part of it, or whether, you know, it was the name of the place, there was just a moment, but I got past it.

Yeah, I'm glad. And the special was good. The jokes were good. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. You know, I'm a big fan of intelligent filth. Yeah, I'd say I get put in that queue. Yeah, I used to.

I feel like I need to get back in it. Well your last special was great. Thank you. Appreciate it. That was really good. You know, that was the other thing about, like, Lynn. She was a TM person. So that kind of like twice a day, man, if I'm doing this, was she, um,

kind of like, uh, getting you to do that? Well, no, I mean, but she, it was just part of her life. She's no, it'd been dug in for a long time. It was just part of who she was, but no matter what she was doing, whether she was on set or any other time, you know, 20 minutes, twice a day, she was in it. And she would go out, she was good at it. Did you notice like a change in her after she did it

as far as like her... Well, I think it was really integrated into her life to the point where it was necessary to maintain, you know, her, whatever her grounding is or stability. But it was just like, she was so into it that like, you know, she's so into it that like, she's one of those people that because she had a practice, she would have to sit a certain way

and then like within a minute she was out. She was like in it and you could feel the difference of somebody who is that well practiced. Cause she would do it and I'd kind of walk by the room and be like, all right, well She's a wherever she is He were you ever having like a freak out and then you like walk past her and you're like I'm resenting your fucking serenity right now. Well. No I mean I always found it curious and I appreciated the practice You know and that she would be so compulsive about it

But because I'm like I am and I'm a comic and I'm a dick I'd be like all right Whatever you gotta do Whatever we got to get each other through this one exactly I'm a comic and I'm a dick, I'd be like, all right, whatever you gotta do. You know? Whatever, we gotta get each other through this whenever it is. Exactly. But wait, so now, I'm trying to remember, but yeah, I mean, the special's good. Do not misunderstand what I'm saying.

No, when I saw you in Austin, you complimented the special. I was like, oh good, all right, that's a fucking weight off for it. You know, I don't have to worry about that. So you're, during the interview was like, oh good, all right, that's a fucking weight off, all right. You know, I don't have to worry about that. During the interview being like, you should really strive for more, you know, something like that. Well look man, it's weird about the nature of specials,

so you did it all yourself? I basically, well 800 Pound Gorilla came in at the end, they gave some funding and they're helping now a little bit. I mean, I got an offer, like one of these offers that like, you know, they offered like 20 people at the same time and weren't gonna give me like a little bit of money. It was gonna be, and I just, they wanted me to do a full hour and I was like,

no one wants to see me for a fucking hour, man. Like, I got to do- People aren't doing the hours anymore. 40 minutes, no. The job has changed. The job has changed, you know. We're competing with, you know, 30 second dog welcoming soldier home videos.

We can't compete with that shit. I'm more in the cat saving algorithm. Look, we found this near death little monster and we're gonna fix him up. Oh my God, I hate, yeah, I get those too. Or like for a week I just had amputees and how did this happen, you know? I get a lot of-

I'm sort of furiously masturbating. I do, you know, I get a lot of- So furiously masturbating. Yeah, I do. I get a lot of weird kind of large scale cooking endeavors. Oh, those are good. Yeah, where you're just sort of like, is that oil? What, how big is that piece of dough? What are they mixing that in? Why are they touching it?

You know, I get a lot of that stuff. Yeah, those are relaxing. I find those relaxing. Oh, I get a lot of that stuff. Yeah, it's relaxing. I find those relaxing. Oh, I love them. I love them. Then there's these ones where they just, satisfying cleaning jobs, where they're like, oh my God, they just like, you just see these guys,

I've seen them like through a pipe that goes under a road. They have like a tractor with a chain hooked to a dead tire on the other side of the pipe and they just pull the fucking Tire through the pipe and this sludge comes out like it comes out like a giant office bod Yeah, and it's sort of like that feels good. Yeah, that's like my wife watches like pimple popper videos Oh my god, she was like relax and I could see it cuz because I kind of watch them too, and I see they're relaxing. Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Tourette's influencers. Love them.

Yeah. I'll show you one after that. Like, and I talked about it in the podcast, like are we allowed to laugh, because they're putting this up there, and I embrace and empathize and understand Tourette's, but some of them have these tics where they say things where it's like, that's the best comedy I've ever seen in my life.

Well, it's always like, that's, you know, I think that's the biggest problem with standup now, is that there's not enough, that'll be the new fucking thing. But like we're competing with everyone, like just capturing organic shit on their phone, and that's always gonna be more funny. It's like your best friend telling you stories

always gonna be more funny than like the best Richard Pryor set you've ever seen, you know, just because, you know, there's just something that's just in the moment about that, you know? Well, I think, but isn't that the shift to, you know, content as drug, and, you know, it's kind of the death of narrative and conversation?

Yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna figure it out, that's a paper I'm writing. So I... You know when somebody says something true that's also depressing or I'm just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's... Yeah, the end of the world, I get it. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get it.

Why did I do this? Why did I choose to do this again? Yeah, believe me, I'm not doing that. Like I don't do the why did I choose to do this? But like there's some part of me that thinks, am I doing some ancient form? I mean, is it- You may very well be doing chamber music right now. We may both be doing chamber music.

Kind of, you know, but fortunately somehow I've got an audience of middle-aged people that are fairly intelligent and you know- Do you still have just individuals coming to your show? Cause you- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I see more single tickets. Do you have more single individuals coming to your show? Because you... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see more single tickets. Do you have more single tickets coming to your show? No, now those people tend to bring people.

Oh, there you go. They evolved like you did. Yeah, the joke that evolved now is that I know there's about 30% of the people in here are kind of disgruntled middle-aged women, and then there's another 30% of the people they brought. So there's a lot of people sitting here going like so this is the guy huh yeah yeah that's always annoying when you see them turn to the other one like let's see what he's got yeah yeah let's see what he's got does that really happen or is that something we're making up Dan I don't know is that is that are

you making up that crowd in your head because I do do. Like is there- I don't know. I mean, I'm, I've definitely bombed. Like have you ever been a comedian? Like who says they haven't bombed? I'm like, oh, this is like a serial killer or something. Like, you know. I've realized that they're lying. For sure they're lying.

Because I've seen like sets of people like, and these are guys I know and I don't begrudge them, but years ago there's this guy he used to work with in San Francisco, and I saw this Eddie, dude. It was okay, but I hear him talking about it a couple hours later, it's like, I killed! I'm like, I don't know if you know what that is. One of my best friends in comedy, Mike Lawrence.

I love that guy. I love that guy. He's actually, I think, open for a lot. Yeah. Yeah, but we were watching this guy and we were both kinda like, how's this guy not quit? He's actually, I think, open for a lot. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But we were watching this guy, and we were both kind of like, how is this guy not quit? And Mike said to me, he goes, he hears laughs that aren't there.

And I was like, oh, you're right. It is a form of psychosis. That's true. Very funny guy. And I think you adjust to the type of laughs you get. Because I know a medium laugh. And I know which jokes are only going to get a medium laugh and you know if I like the joke enough I'm like that's fine.

Right. You know what I mean? What do I expect out of that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? I want to do it. This is an amp up bit. Yeah, yeah. So when I met you like um yeah I, it seems to me that you've gone through different waves of trouble. You're always on a wave of trouble. Well, you know, I like to think that I do good for a little bit and then, um, it goes away. You know, the, uh, I'm good now. I'm six months sober now. That's good.

Um, but this has been so fucking ongoing. It's been a long, It's been a lot. You're one of those guys though, and we all know them, and certainly in the arts or in the business, where you have these very prolific and together, productive, creative periods, and then someone says, well, how's Dan doing?

It's like, well, not great right now. Is there? Well, part of the reason I'm on this is to get more work. So I'm in a good period right now, guys. But yeah, I mean, I think that, I get like, just to give you an idea of like, okay, after I saw you, right? Like there.

In Austin? Or in Sacramento? This was in Sacramento. You know, after I saw you, right, like there. In Austin? Or in Sacramento? No, this was in Sacramento. You know, like a year away, I had had two and a half years sober and then I started drinking again. Yeah. But you go. It's not like, it does seem like you're the kind of person.

Yeah, it's mornings, it's like, it's, you just go. But like, you're not the kind of person that goes like, I can have a casual drink. It's like, when you decide to drink, it's like, it's a matter of weeks before it's like a fucking shit show. Well, yeah, I mean, that's just my personality. Like, you know, like I had, like,

actually right around then I got like a Rude Canal and they gave me like 13 Vicodin and I took them all at once. You know, like that's just, you know. Was that just to get high or to end it? Ha ha ha ha. Just to get high and I didn't get it high like I thought. Like, if I didn't work on me, so that was kind of a bummer. I'm sorry.

It's all right. But like, let's go back though. I mean, like, where'd you grow up? I grew up in Rutherford, New Jersey, and then Westchester, New York in high school. So you're always an East Coast guy? I was an East Coast guy. And I actually spent four years in LA.

I'm not going to say where you live, but I lived around here for a little bit of it. Oh yeah? Yeah. But like, what got you into this game? I mean, do you have brothers and sisters and shit? I do have a sister. She's a, she's starting to be a social worker now. Oh my God, that's great.

Yeah, yeah, but I... Oh, that's, I love social work. Yeah, it's a lot of work. I'm like, it's great. Yeah, yeah, but I... Oh, I love social work. Yeah, it's a lot of work. I'm like, it's just unsung. Like, I wrote a pilot that was centered around social work. I think it's like these unsung heroes. Yeah, they're like, as soon as you said that, I already saw the Annoying Network notes for it.

Like, yeah, can you make them less sad? Can you make them less sad? Well, it's like, that's where I got to... You're like, it's a women's shelter. Yeah. Exactly. Well, that's where the title of the special came from. It's like an FX executive after me and Lipsight

turned in a second story idea for a second episode. Yeah. He said, well, we love it. There's no real notes, but is there any way we can get it from bleak to dark? Ah, but it's a great special title. Yeah. That was a good one too.

Thanks man. And I hate fucking watching specials. I watch more now, like I didn't for a long time, but now I watch everyone's special. That must mean you're good emotionally, cause it's like, I remember I read this book about John Lennon and he couldn't listen to any music, cause he would be like, fuck, I'm not book about John Lennon and he couldn't listen to any music because he would be like,

fuck, I'm not making anything right now. This is like fucking hell. It's good that you pick a high bar to compare yourself to to resent yourself. It's good that your model is in place. No, no, I'm not comparing it to me. I mean, I'm not fucking John Lennon. But no, no, it's just that we all do it.

Maybe I'm a Pete Best, but. I think what I've grown to do is understand, like, fuck, I wish I could do like that, but I don't. Yeah. And I seem to be more okay with that. Like when I see a kind of, like I watch Rory Scovel's special. Oh, he's so good, man.

He's so good and like, I don't know why more people don't know him, but we're all in the same boat, we do a certain thing. Yeah. And it's like, it's not for everybody, but you know, he really sort of, in a very kind of, what's the word I want? Like you don't realize because of the way he delivers

just how deep and heavy the shit he's talking about is. Well, he's also, he's so relaxed. And somebody said this about, I think it was like Steve Kerr who's the coach of the Golden State Warriors. And it's the same thing about Rory. The greatest thing about Michael Jordan was that he was in the moment. And Rory is like a guy who I always see in the,

I've seen him in a bunch of different scenarios, and he never tries to like, he always meets the energy and then takes it to wherever he wants it to go. It's pretty impressive. But he talks about big shit. You know, he's not shying away from anything. So you and your sister in Rutherford. My dad, my mom.

But your dad was in show business? My dad was a writer, kind of worked for the Arts Council when I was like younger and then moved to LA for a year, got a job writing for the Suzanne Pluchette show. And then after Newhart, yeah, after Newhart. And then, uh, moved back. He was playwriting.

That's his thing. Uh, he's a playwright and he, um, and then he got a job writing for the Cosby show, um, for a little bit. They told him, they told him he never met Cosby because they told Cosby he was a black writer. So he just was like writing from home being like, hey, where is this? Martin St. Germain guy. Yeah. He met the son, the guy who plays the son, Malcolm Jamal Warner. So, but yeah, then he just wrote movies and plays from New Jersey. He hated LA. What movies?

He wrote like, he wrote like the, one of the drafts of the Nelson Mandela Walk to Freedom movie, so he went to South Africa to meet that dude, and he wrote this movie about a cheetah called Duma that was very well received, and he actually just wrote, the movie came out of the play he wrote, Freud's Last Session. Which was really good.

With the Anthony Hopkins? Yeah, really good play. That's based on his, really good play. And that movie's based on his plays. Really, that just came out. Yeah. He's still around? So he's still around.

Yeah, he's still working on stuff now. He's doing something with, I think, The Innocence Project. Oh yeah, sure. Over in, he's much more high brow than me, Mark. Yeah. You know? But you grew up with that. I grew up with a lot of books, a lot of plays,

a lot of plays. Did he ever teach? He does, I think he did a little bit, but not until later on, he has recently. Yeah. Not like predominantly, no. But he would like, I think I was able to write a little bit easier because you have fucking Sophocles

and Euripides right next to you. Yeah, that you can just pull out and read Electra or something. Did you read that stuff? I did. I don't really anymore. I've been bad about books this year. I've been reading a lot about history, a lot of Nazi stuff, a lot of World War II stuff. You want to prepare. Prepare. about books this year, but reading a lot about history, a lot of Nazi stuff, a lot of World War II stuff.

Sure. Yeah, you want to prepare. Prepare. But so that's a very specific childhood, and it was one that I didn't have, but I always aspired to, so I gravitated more to people in bookstores, intellectual conversations, but did your dad have a circle of friends that were like the intelligentsia of... He had playwriting friends. He also had probably pretty normal friends.

But is he of David Rabe's know, probably pretty normal, you know, friends. But like, does he have like David Rabe's generation, or those kind of guys? I don't think it was, you know, I don't think it was, it wasn't, it didn't feel like I was like going downstairs and seeing F. Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway, you know, hanging out. But he's definitely, you know, he's got a couple friends that are like, he's really, he's really good friends with Dr. Ruth.

Yeah. So like, he's got a couple friends, and then he's got a lot of like normal friends too, like, you know, guys that are just positioned. He's a social butterfly, I'm not. He's a social butterfly. You guys close? Very close.

And when, that's good. When you were growing up, I mean, is that what made you wanna do that? I think so, I mean, is that what made you want to do that? I think so. I mean, I think that, you know, I had a therapist who said this, and if I want to be brutally honest, it's so funny, like, you know,

I was obviously listening to his show a lot before he did it, and you're like, oh, what should I talk about? And then you're like, you end up looking at your whole fucking, it's like, oh, you're just making sense of your life. It becomes just like, you're this detective and it's this cold case, which is your identity.

Anybody you mean, who's curious. Yeah, anybody who does this show, I'm sure has that. Unless they come in and they do that like, oh, this is the type of person I wanna present to the world. Usually what happens with certain people is that they know of the show, but I wanna present to the world. Usually what happens with certain people is that they know of the show, but they never listen to the show. So they come in and they act like they listen to the show,

but I can tell when they do or they don't because they only mentioned the last two episodes or one episode that everyone- Yeah, the Obama episode or something. Exactly that kind of thing. Yeah, but I like the detective analogy. Yeah, I was really into that for a while. I was trying to do like a true crime, a true crime web for yourself.

It's a sidebar. Yeah, I quit comedy for like two years or a year and I was like, I wanted to do like a true crime podcast about cold cases and I would call these, it's just really hard to do that by the way. It's a lot harder than comedy because I would call like the precincts and be like hey Can I get some info on this murder and they're like no? Yeah, you know so it's a lot of work

I my hats off to everyone who does that kind of work. Well, that was what Patton's wife did that Yeah, she passed she did a big one right? Did she help? Yeah, I'm into all that kind of you are a book. Yeah, what do you make of that in terms of who you are? Why is that because I don't have any interest in that at all. I don't know. I was like, if you get in a fight with somebody and then all of a sudden you read a bunch of stuff on Dahmer and you're like, well I'm not that fucked up.

I'm not that bad. So maybe that's the human reason for it. But as far as why I- Just for building rationalizations. Building rationalizations, yeah. But as far as why I... Just for building rationalizations. Building rationalizations, yeah. But as far as why I got into theater, I guess, and then comedy eventually, you know, it was just one of those things where I had a,

I had a talent or predilection towards it. Well, what did the therapist say? Well, he's basically like, whatever you do, it's like, he talked about narcissism, he was kind of, in a broader way, like we're all a little narcissistic. Like, so if you look like whatever the world rewards you with. So like when I did my first play, my dad and mom were like, okay, you're funny at that. You're good at that. You know? So you're like, okay, I'm good at that. So the

world's validating me on that. So let me just, cause I don't know who the fuck I am. So let me run towards the thing that the world is saying, hey, you're good at this thing. You know, it's kind of funny cause I didn't like sports and now I love sports. Like there's certain things that like, you know, I hate it, you know, I go, oh, I'm just gonna do theater cause I wasn't good as a wrestler.

But yeah, so you run towards whatever society rewards you as I think when you don't have or even your peer group or even Yeah, or when you don't have like a especially because you know when you have an identity crisis I think it's like oh they like me in this okay I'm gonna go I'm gonna go towards you that's interesting because like I I don't know if I I ever framed it like that And I don't know that I was necessarily being rewarded. I think I was defying people to reward me necessarily being rewarded. I think I was defying people to reward me. Yeah, I mean well, I didn't do stand-up until like I was like I did like actually like once or twice in high school But I was mostly you know doing plays. I was acting you're writing plays

I did eventually when I was 18. I wrote this play and that hold up you know, it's not I wrote a of worse ones in college from that one, because, but that was based on Sophocles' Philoctetes, like based in like 70s Jersey or something like that. What is Sophocles? It's one of the Trojan War guys that was like left behind on an island. That's the play? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you know, like, it was very high braille, you know. So anyway, I did that and won the Steven Sondheim like festival or something like that. So I did that for a little bit, but then I went to college and I just drank myself. Where'd you go? University of Evansville, it's where Robbie Malick and like a bunch of actors went.

My dad was like, I think like a pretty big, you know, they did a lot of his plays and I think, you know, up until standup, I really wanted to be my dad, like a playwright and not as much now. a pretty big, you know, they did a lot of his plays. And I think, you know, up until stand up, I really wanted to be my dad, like a playwright. And not as much now. For his approval, you think, or just because you respected the...

I think I respected him. He always approved me, he was always supportive. So it's never like, you know, my mom was a little bit different story. What'd she do? She was a special needs teacher. And then, you know, the last couple of years, she wasn't really doing anything.

Yeah. Sorry. No, it's okay. She passed away a year and some change, change ago, very troubled person. Were they together still? No, she, they divorced and she. How old were you?

I was in my thirties. I was actually writing for Not Safe with Nikki Glaser, who's a friend of mine, really funny comic, obviously. Love her, yeah. But yeah, they separated around then and my mom kind of had a psychotic break and... From what? I think her job ended and my dad, you know, they got divorced and that was too much and then the drinking kind of took off.

My grandpa died of alcoholism. And then my, you know, it definitely, it hurt my mom later on. Eventually we basically, you know, had to put her in a facility. But like she was, yeah, she just wasn't, you know, she gave up. I don't know what to, you know,

like she just completely gave up. Yeah, I'm concerned about that with my mom because it's a mental thing. It's not like she's losing her mind or that she's physically that compromised, but there's a certain type of personality, I think, for... And I'm sure it happens all the time where life just takes its toll and you just, you don't necessarily wanna die, but you don't wanna live either. Or you don't wanna engage. Yeah, I mean, she would say that to me, essentially. She was like locked in these memories from, sorry, it's like hard to bring up.

She was locked in a lot of memories from when she was, when we were kids. Yeah, oh, yeah. And it's, you know. But it was, yeah, it was bad. I mean, it was like, you know, before we got into the facility, she was like, you know, she was a woman who had her masters,

and, you know, she wasn't the easiest woman all the time, but she was smart and had her masters, and then she's, you know, fucking, you know, like the whole house is black mold in it, and she's like, you know, wetting every couch and shit, and you're like, this is a fucking nightmare. Lost her will. Yeah, you just kind of give up,

which I understand that, because I think I have that in me, you know. Yeah, was she actively drinking or no? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. For sure, I put her in rehab once and then I helped put her in rehab. I helped her and then she's drinking a week later. Oh my God.

It was not like, it was kind of a hard, I'm still dealing with it now, a hard couple of years, but. Yeah, it's very difficult. Both my parents are still, I've been struggling with their own struggles, but like, and my parents got divorced when I was in my 30s too. Yeah, it was a little, right?

Yeah, it's a different, like it's a different thing when you're in your 30s. You don't get the sympathy, but then when I tell, you know, like one of my best friends in comedy was my writing partner, Dan Soder, He was on the show terrific comic great guy Great guy like you know he's got a dead dad and like when I tell the whole story He's like you know he's like most people talk about dead parents, and I don't feel bad He's like you you're in my he is you're in my boat, buddy

He's like so I'm fine when you do it. Yeah, yeah. By the way, he's been like a lifesaver for me. Yeah, he seems pretty solid guy. Yeah, I've been writing with him. He's worked it out. For sure, for sure. I mean, like he's one of those guys too. He's been so, you know, he hasn't drank in 10 years.

And I mean, all my friends, you too, man. Like you guys figured it out, you know? You know, and I I'm always I'm still an open mic'er in recovery. Yeah but that's part of the that's part of the game you know I mean that's part of the disease right? Yeah yeah it's yeah. So when did when when did you start realizing that you had that? Pretty early on. Like when you went to college? High school, no. Oh, high school?

Like there would be these disasters, you know? Like, you know, I would be doing okay for a while and then I would be the lead of school play and then I would drink half a bottle of Bacardi and then pass out in back of the school. Yeah, I did that too, yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, I'd be doing okay

and then I would like fucking buy cocaine yeah And then in college I was kind of like you know You know I was a disaster drinking too much, and you know probably not very fun to be around And I would just you know the problem is is that it works for the first hour And then you know it ends up a year later Yeah, if I could just if I could just I always said if I could just stop at eight, I would still be drinking, but that's not my story, unfortunately.

Yeah, I mean, it's weird to have that background in it because I talk about that and I don't always frame it as I should, but I was definitely a chore. I wasn't a fun drunk in high school. I would drink hard liquor I would get vomit. I'd be you know, my friends would be like fuck Yeah, you just have like a couple and chill bro, or they throw me on a lawn next door because I got thrown on plenty of lawns Yeah, yeah, they wanted to go to the party. Yeah, they air you out. Yeah. Yeah, and then they one time

I I vomited all over myself in the bleachers of a football game Oh my god, so it was like I was the center It was like a fucking disaster, but like I still don't always frame that as alcoholism I just frame it as high school, but I mean in retrospect well it depends if you if you get out of it then You know if that was a phase, but But if that phase keeps happening all the time, it's probably something worse. Well, it kind of percolated along, and then cocaine,

you're like a cocaine and booze guy, that's me too. Yeah, ABC. Yeah, what's that? Alcohol becomes cocaine, you know? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I smoked weed all the time too, but you know. Yeah, I mean, that was the thing the last time, is that I was just smoking, like the last couple years,

I was just smoking weed constantly, and I'm like, Oh, I'm California sober. Cause I got off that because I was addicted to Benzos. So I was like, let me move to weed. The weed now though, Jesus Christ. I mean, it's just, I mean, it's not what we... It's not what I smoked in high school. I really thought you were like, you know, there's a couple of ways you can go with that. I thought you'd be like, it's amazing. It's a- Well, I will say this. I just got out of rehab in December and anybody who tells me, oh, the 70s, we parted hardy or my generation, they parted hardy.

The kids now that are on fentanyl and it's like they're super, like super shredded. They're almost like mutants as far as the amount of drugs they can take. I've never seen it before. Like we cannot hang. Like if you went back to try to like hang with these kids, they can't, like first off, they're just comatose, they don't fuck, you know?

Like it's just like kind of like zombie. And like this kid's like, you know, you couldn't, and I was like, yeah, you're right. I can't, like you're on medical end of life drugs. You know, like casually. Yeah, and very dangerous. Very can't like you're on medical end-of-life drugs. Yeah, like yeah, yeah and very dangerous Very dangerous shout out well bridge recovery. Yeah long. I'm doing this in You got me on him in Austin. Yeah Well, I always hated skull and I was like, oh, I don't throw up with this one so I do that while I vape now

Yeah, I'm sorry, buddy. No, it's okay. I mean that one's pretty good to get me into compared to... I did that. See, this is the fucked up thing about addicts is like, for me, with nicotine, I can never get off it totally. And I had for a few years, but when I first got the Zins, which is non-tobacco and it's nicotine, I literally said, this is what the fucked up thing about being an addict is, and it's so telling. I got the Zins and I put one in my mouth and I'm like, oh, this is great. I'll just do like three or four of these a day

because it's given me enough. And now, dude, I'm stockpiling them. When I go to other states where you can get the flavored ones, I just went to New Mexico and now I've got a bunch of those. And then you start- Which flavor do you like the best? This menthol. Yeah, menthol's great. It's fucking which flavor do you like the bus? This menthol your menthol is great. I used to like the jewel pod menthols. Yeah, I never did the the vapes

But yeah, but the thing is is like the about the attic things you start seeing the used ends like they're on the floor They're like they're like, oh, yeah, and then I'm like, oh, this is like fucking anything But I think that I mean maybe I'm just saying this I think think that the Zin, I don't want to turn this into a fucking Zin commercial, especially because they're not paying me, but like Zins are, it seems like the least destructive way you can ingest nicotine. Besides probably a patch, but probably the patch is better.

But, um. Yeah, but you don't get the fun, you know, like the taste, the flavor, you just. Little spring in your step. Yeah, you just get the, whatever, it's spring in your step and then nausea just get them whatever it's spring your step and then nausea It's the same thing if I could just stay with that first hour. Yeah, but um Yeah, I don't I don't know. It's a gums. Okay, the gums. Okay, the lozenges

Gum makes me burp so I can't do the gum and the last thing you're at fuck my stomach up But okay, so a couple addicts talking about the they fuck my stomach up. But okay, so a couple addicts talking about the one thing they can still do. So how many rehabs have you been in? I've been to two inpatients, three outpatients, and a detox. Yeah, good for you.

What do you? I'm six months now, I'm very, you know, working on a show with Dan Soder for Peacock, that's going great, you know, working on a show with Dan Soder for Peacock. That's going great. You know, maybe starting a new podcast with my buddy Sean Donnelly. I'm trying to pitch this to a great guy, funny guy. I'm trying to pitch this into things are positive now. They're gearing back. No, no, no. I can feel that. I mean, I think I took you to a meeting once way back in the day or we went to one.

Yeah, yeah. And you were kind of had this, I was trying to figure out what the look is, but you know, the, I think it has something to do with that sense of, you know, kind of a weird, you know, who am I thing. Yeah. That identity search. For sure. You know, and there's some part, like, I don't know why I try to figure out in terms of my

cold case and who I am, why am I missing that piece? And I, you know, the piece that says... Well, the part like, who am I? Yes. Like the piece that's sort of like, well, you're grounded in you. I mean, it's taken me years to accept it. You have, but you've had that in different forms. Yeah, but I still feel like, you know, there's an essential self that's a bit, you know, a bit nebulous.

And it- And you? Yeah. And it bothers me. Yeah. I don't see that. Good. I mean, I just don't, you know. Well, no, I think I've reeled it in and I've landed in it, but it was, it was a chore where I think kids who have parents who aren't, uh, boundary-less or fucked up, they, they

sort of like, they kind of get that. They, they were able to develop a sense of self early on. But like you were talking about, if it's narcissistically driven, then that's a sort of ego centered avoidance of authentic self. I'm sorry. What is an authentic self? I know. Right? I mean, that's the, my only, I don't know, like sometimes you have to be careful with the story you tell yourself about yourself. And I do this a lot where then you don't know, sometimes you have to be careful with the story you tell yourself about yourself, and I do this a lot, where then you don't wanna,

because it's like, I always kind of see myself as like, oh, I'm this, you know, like, been down so long, it feels like up to me, kind of guy. But it's like, I got a beautiful wife, who's amazing, I got a great dog, I got, you know, I'm working with some of the funniest fucking people, like, I've had a decent, you know, I haven't had your fucking career,

but I've done fine, I'm not an open micer. But it's the story that you tell yourself. That's right. And you're like, well I'm not that either, I'm not this shit, but I'm not like shit. No, right, yeah, there's that constant compare and despair business going on. Yeah, but you have to be careful,

the stories you tell yourself, because all of a sudden, I'm a huge wrestling wrestling fan all of a sudden you're living the gimmick You know and then shit. Yeah, I'm not I I am you know, I am this thing that I create. Yeah. Yeah No, that's right. That's true you know, I think like I did a bit recently where I'm like, you know, there's all this talk of authenticity and You know authentic self and like I mean, what does that even mean? I mean, you are what gets you through and engages with the world. Like I said, if I was really my authentic self, I don't think I'd do anything. I wouldn't wanna do anything.

No, that would be that you'd be under a tree. Right, which is the Buddhist idea. So like, there's a spiritual component to it. Giving up your princehood to just be in the moment. Yeah, I don't think I know many people who've done that. No, not in the city anyways. Not in the city, no. So, okay, so you're in college and you're not doing stand up, but you're writing? No, I didn't do stand up until after college.

Because it was just one of those things where I could write something and then get on stage and have immediate either approval or rejection from it. And that was attractive to me. It's so funny, like you talk about comedy, it's like, are you talking about comedy? Because this feels like so medical. But yeah, so I ended up, you know, I then, you know, I was with the crew of like, you know, Mike Lawrence and Mark Norman and Sam Morrill and Sean Donnelly and Mike Drucker and Annie Letterman. Like just, we were doing like, you know, 16 mics a week. Dane Soder was probably part of

that, although I always considered him doing kind of better than that. But like, yeah, and then, you know, and those were the, that was actually probably the most fun year of my life was the second or third year when you're just doing open mics and you're like, oh, you got in this little show? Oh my God, he was on the show with you. And you know, and nobody's like, everybody's like, you know, the victories are like,

it hurts a little, but it's also like, God, we're part of this whole fucking thing together. You know, going to the diner afterwards. That's right, yeah, that was, yeah. It's probably similar to what you talked about with like, Attell and Silverman and stuff like that, where that crew, which that was the crew we looked up to. We can talk about you guys like, holy shit, you know?

So that was kind of, that was kind of, that was fun. That's the best part of it. That's the best part of it. Yeah, yeah. And that's, and I say now, if somebody's like, getting into comedy, the best part is writing a new joke and it working. Everything else is, you know, whatever. It kinda is, dude. It still is forever, you know?

Yeah, I know. Because you're not sick of it, yeah. Yeah, and then it does go away. You know, there are jokes that were perfectly fine that I'm like, I'm done with that one. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it served me for a couple months.

Right. But now I'm tired of it. Because I don't, like, once I start to acknowledge structure, I start to get kind of bored unless I'm like, keep building it. Yeah. Like if something's a little thing, like I forget them.

Is that the mental one? Yeah. But I don't know if I have anymore. You can smell it on me? Yeah. Like I was in jail. I have one. Oh, take it, take it, that's fine.

I have a thing here, I'm doing two at this point. It's a great tone though. Is that the? Well, what's up? What's up? Like we were having a really nice conversation then all of a sudden like it became just two animals, two animals fighting over a fucking piece of meat.

I pulled this in and you're like, hey, so. What's up, what's up, man? What's going on with that, bro? What's going on? Like I have to stop myself every and you're like, hey, so. What's up, what's up, man? What's going on with that, bro? What's going on? Like, I have to stop myself every time somebody's like, they're like, oh, my mom has cancer, my dad has, or something like that.

And I'm like, oh, shit. Where's the, what are they? Yeah, I'll be like, what are they, oxys? What are you doing with the leftover? I'm gonna help, I'm helping you. I'm helping you. Should I help you clean out her bathroom? Never offered ever. You're like, motherfucker, you didn't offer to pick me up from the airport.

And you're trying to like take my mom's payments. So okay. So, but after, so that happened after college. You graduated, you managed to- I did graduate. Yeah. And then, yeah, I worked in a movie theater and then I was three years I was a guard at the Metropolitan Museum of Arts. Really? I worked overnights the last year. But you were overnight? Yeah, yeah, which is crazy.

Holy fuck, were you high? No, I was sober during that time. I was contributing writing to The Onion, so you get like $10 of a joke. Which version of The Onion? Who was in charge? It was like so you get like ten dollars of a joke which which version of the onion Who was in charge network in the sports? I don't even know like I could probably know if you name somebody I'll be like Oh, yeah, that's that's the person I sent joke What was it like being in the Met in the middle of the night? Crazy, but good overnights was better during the day than during the day

But you start the problem six months in you're not getting vitamin D And then you start like things start happening in here oh yeah your body start yeah and my schedule was insane where I'd be you know from 1220 to 820 I would be overnight and I would write when I can but what room were you in do you roll over you get put all over you just walk around the Met yeah you get you just kind of go in the middle of the night and you know the American wing is supposedly haunted so you're walking through that, you know, I can't believe that that must have been crazy It is crazy

But you know, it's so funny like in the you know, like the like cuz during the day you kind of get put in a gallery I was a trouble guard so they put me in the Greek and Roman section But you'd like you're in the impressionist wing and you're like, oh my god I'm around these Kandinsky's and all yeah, and then two days later like fuck. I'm back in the impressionist wing and you're like, oh my God, I'm around these Kandinsky's and all this. And then two days later you're like, fuck, I'm back in the Kandinsky room. Everything becomes the same again. But yeah, I was there and that was pretty wild, man.

I actually ended up writing this web series for Comedy Central about it, which I don't think their audience loved, but it was really fun to work on with Dan Powell and Janine Garofalo. It's called Insecurity, but it it was like I don't think I'd figured I thought it was funny but there was like too dark for them their YouTube where they're like this isn't fucking Brickleberry fuck you you know

it was like right you know one of many one of many little fucking bumps in the road of my comedy career. Yeah, but it seemed like at some point pretty early on, you knew that you wanted to write. I mean, comedy specifically, because for me, as a standup, I never wanted to write for anybody. I never saw that as a job option,

because I guess I was more addicted to the compulsive immediacy of doing stand-up and I still kind of am. And even this podcast, like, I don't know what's going to happen here. Yeah, you're going to get, you look down, my cock's out. But like, yeah, I mean, I think that, I still think that, like I said before, telling a new joke and having it work is fucking. But at some point you realize that writing was a job that, you know, you could earn money at.

Yeah. Like you would stand up. You never know. Yeah. And I mean, I was making it. I think that's kind of like now I'm much more focused on stand up, but like, I think that, you know, when you make money as a writer, you're kind of like, well, I'm not going to fucking take this when I get like this much.

I'm going to get like 1500 for this weekend when I could be making, you know, four grand a week as a writer and what? Well, no, I tell people all the time that like, I used to, but I don't know how the business works anymore. But like, you know, if you start as a standup, most of the guys I started with, if they were smart, you know, they didn't put all their fucking eggs into that basket, they became writers, showrunners,

other things in show business. Because if you can manage comedy, that's a hell of a skill set. It used to be. It is, yeah. I mean, I'm still figuring it out. I feel like it's that Jack of all trades, master of none, you know? But it's not, it's pretty specific.

You're a comedy writer on both levels, whether it's standup or writing. But I know, but there's like, you write for multi-cam, a single-cam variety show, it's all different sets of skills. But I know, but there's like, you know, like you write for a multi-cam, a single-cam variety show. It's all different sets of skills. Have you done all of those? Yes. No, maybe not single-cam.

What was the first writing gig? God, I wrote for Silent Library on MTV, which was like a prank show. Yeah. I did two weeks on that, which is, that's not around anymore. The guy who was host was like a parkour guy. It was like, that was like, Al. A what? Parkour. You know who was host was like a parkour guy.

It was like, that was like, a parkour is, you know, the guys will like jump around and like do videos. Oh yeah. And then I wrote for, on Fuse, Mark Hoppus' show. It was like Amy Schumer's first show. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then I would sell stuff

and then get staffed and sell stuff. And, you know, I actually haven't been, like it's been a couple years. The last thing I was on was Bill Burr's Immoral Comp. But my buddy Tyler Falbo is great, created this really dark sketch show. Oh yeah? Were you in one?

I'm not sure if you were in one. I don't think so. I don't think so. But it was Bill Burr was hosting and it ended up being on Roku. It was on Quibi for a little bit, if you remember that. We all sold the show to Quibi in that year before it disappeared. They disappeared. Disintegrated, yeah. So yeah, everything is like a different skill set. It was on Quibi for a little bit if you remember that we all like sold a show to Quibi in that year before it disappeared

So yeah, everything is like a different, you know skill set and there's like, you know, there's like have you got stars in each of them? I'm not that you know, I wrote a network. I wrote on superior donuts Germaine Fowler is based on a Tracy. Let's play. No, I know yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think you were They went older because they would judge. They went Judd for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think you were, they went older, because they went Judd. They went Judd for this. Yeah, you would have played like young Judd. Yeah. And that was wild, and also because my dad had worked

with Judd, so it was kind of fun to like. Everyone's worked with Judd. Yeah, he's been around forever, man. He's been around forever, man. He played my dad. He's been around forever, you know? Yeah, no, it was kind of interesting. Great guy.

He is a great guy. He's like in his 90s, I think. And you talk about somebody who's like, yeah, he's in was kind of a guy. He is a great guy He's like in his 90s I think and you talk about somebody who's like yeah He's in his 90s and you know about that guy's been nominated for an Oscar ordinary people and he's still like he still treats It like hey, this is a job that I have well the ones that last do that. Yeah Yeah, yeah that like when I was casting Marin I was just surprised at all the how it worked Like there's all these old actors around and they just wanna work and some of them,

they'll go anywhere. Yeah, for sure. Basically the decision making is, how long do I have to be away? Can I get my basic fee? And will they fly me first class? And Judd usually likes a golf course close by. Yeah, is there a good restaurant,

is there a good golf course? I'm learning that about acting because I'm doing more acting and I'm trying to- You're very good. Well, thank you. You're very good. I thought thank you. You're very good. I thought you know, excellent, my wife worked on Glow. She was associate casting director.

She worked under Jen Houston. Oh, yeah. Who's really good. But yeah, you were excellent on that. Thanks, man. And that's a whole different skill. It's a whole different skill. The more I talk to actors, because a lot of them just accept that they're going to do bad shit.

Because the decision making is, I'm a working actor, so it really is like, where's the shooting, how long am I away? And what's the money, this is good enough material, I'll go if I don't have to be away for so long. Yeah, it's, you know, I think that the skills that make you a great actor, or the skills that don't make you a great comic, like, like actor, you just lose yourself and comedy you're in control.

Comedy you're a quarterback. You're like, I got to throw it to this pocket. I got to throw it in this pocket. If you do that at acting, you're fucked. Cause I've seen, I'll tell you who afterwards, but I've seen, you're a very good standup comic actor because I don't see you thinking. And I've seen like really stand-ups when they act. Sometimes I'll see them think about

how they're gonna say the line before they say the line. Or they're insulated and they're controlling an outcome that's not in the present. Because they have trauma from doing bad roadkicks. Yeah, or it is a one-sided experience. I knew when I did Marin that there was gonna be a learning curve and it was gonna take me a while to figure out how to be comfortable on a set,

on camera, you know, just, I knew that I wasn't gonna be good at first. And it was okay. Did you find, were you more comfortable in roles that weren't yourself? I'm not like, like I did my craft or whatever it may be. It's like, I am who I am. What do I have to turn on or off? What do I have to amplify or negate from the being I am? So I'm not doing some transformative acting work. I'm not going to, you know, I did do

an accent in too Leslie, but no, I, I, I, I, I'm not losing, you know, I did do an accent in Two Leslie, but no, I'm not losing myself entirely in anything other than the present. I seem to be able to do that. That's good. You know, in that moment. But like, I'm still trying to, I took this new job. There are things I want to try to do as an actor to see if it works, if I'm more satisfying,

if, you know what I mean? Everyone's, a lot of it's just bullshit. Pete Slauson Yeah, we're song and dance, man, you know? Pete Either you're natural on the screen or you're not. Yeah, and I've had, because I've been in a bunch of pilots, and sometimes I'll kill it at the table read, and then I'll do it, and I'll be like, oh, I fucking lost the rhythm of this house. Then it's over, because you're trying to pull for a pattern. Yeah, yeah.

It's daunting, man. It's all daunting. I guess it's not, compared to being a fucking steelworker. But there's a lot you can do with it and it's just a matter of like embracing, like I'm just learning more and more and I'm paying more attention to like, you know, what acting is.

Like I just was talking to Aubrey Plaza. I mean, you know, the insecurity will kill you, you know, and at some point, like you said, in terms of identity, you know, you've got to have a certain comfort in yourself. Like, well, they hired me, so they must want me. So I'm going to have to deliver some me. Yeah. I'm still figuring that out. But yes, for sure. So after superior donuts, you did other shit. I wrote on Michelle Wolf show. Oh yeah. How's she?

On Netflix. She's great. I can't get her to be on the show. Still friends. Still really still good friends. Now were these in these jobs where their where people were like, dude, you gotta ... They know me as a standup and... But do they, but do you get the job and is there ever a point where they're like, you gotta slow down? Like, what do you do?

I wasn't, I usually am not using and then all of a sudden I'll have... When you're working? Which I wanna thank, you know, I did at Superior Donuts, I kinda had one where I went off and Bob Daley is my boss, there's this kindest guy in the world. You know, he was very, he was very understanding of that. But, and then, but, or something would happen like, I think at the end of one job, when I got addicted to Benzos,

I'm like, fuck, these jokes aren't as good anymore. Because it's all like kind of room temperature. So I had to get off those because I was having panic attacks. I need something to stop the panic attacks that wasn't drinking It's like, you know, you put your finger on the dam a hold the dam and then you know, yeah But yeah, so no, I wasn't I didn't have that conversation. I haven't really had that Conversation, but I have I mean I've embarrassed myself for sure as a stand

I like I've been I've totally like I you know, like I mean for god's sakes I like asked Sinbad to buy me crack at a fucking comedy festival. You know I've done like shit face Yeah, I mean like I've done plenty of I did my yoga, and then I went over to Sinbad, and I asked if I could score by the way Why Sinbad? He was there. It was a city, Michigan. It was there. Oh, I know that. The festival. I'm not going to be invited back, by the way. But I mean, but like, I wouldn't think... Sober now, by the way. Sober now.

Yeah, I wouldn't think I need crack worse than bad. Why? The problem is I was so drunk I needed to wake up. I used to do that fucking... I used to go on the road when I was still using, and I'd get drunk at a bar and there'd be no one in there. But one guy, and I'd hear him like sniffle and I'd be like, that's the guy, that's the guy. Where you go to the, you go to the, yeah, you go to the strip club

and you're not even there for the girls, you're just like there because you know she's dating a coke dealer, you know? Oh boy. And that was the other thing I learned about when I got sober is that when you use, outside of the drugs or the physical thing, you put yourself in positions where it's

exponentially much higher possibility of you getting killed or in trouble. I look at like, you know, before I got, like I had a nice, like I kind of had in between, you know, I had a couple of shows at Fox that was in development and then those stopped. I'm like, Oh fuck, I'm not going to be a thing. You know, like, you know, I had a couple shows at Fox that was in development and then those stopped. I'm like, oh fuck, I'm not gonna be a thing, you know? Like, you know, when things, you know this, like when you first like get Montreal, you're gonna be the next disease or whatever. So like a couple months, I'm not like, you know,

I ended up, I don't know how, but like getting, downtown LA, I'm getting my ass kicked by a father and son, like in front of a 7-Eleven. And then I was just in a Korean barbecue place and that waiter just stopped by and like fought him off for me. But I was like on the floor of your past state. And then I just started writing on Nicky show like three, four months after that. So I think that would, again, it would be like, go good, good, good, good

disaster and then good, good. And I think a lot of it is I make, know my career or a relationship or something a higher power Yeah, I'm not really thinking about like you know me and yeah, just try to put me healthy. Yeah Getting fucked up you know like that's another problem You know yeah, but it seems like it, but that's one of those examples is like you don't fuck around you're all in No, that was I mean all in but like I mean I got piss on me I mean all in the wall all in why just master yeah, I just mean there's no there's no Small window of fun it seems very small window of fun

And I do know I'm not I do know a couple people who I smell I'm like who'd be like hey you're friend of Bill and I'm like you're doing this to fucking network aren't you oh really? Yeah, I've met a couple where I'm like still that like, hey, you're friend of Bill. And I'm like, you're doing this to fucking network, aren't you? Oh, really? Yeah. I've met a couple where I'm like still that I mean, that feels not lately. But yeah, I've met a couple that I'm like, you're not. Oh, yeah. I remember I saw you drink. That wasn't that bad. You know, I was like, I remember Annie was Annie Letterman. Yeah. Funny guy.

But she had seen when she had seen you after I opened, you're like, hey, he's a nice guy. he's got it bad. Is that right? That's what I said? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I was like, yeah, that's kind of, for whatever it is, it's my family. Yeah, no, no, I mean, I do remember saying that when I first started hearing about you.

Not in a bad way, it was a nice way, but you know. Well, yeah, I mean, that's the reality. I mean, some people, it's not a genetic thing. And some people, it's just a compulsive thing. But you do know the difference between people who are like, that guy's drinking a half gallon. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. Why would we revere all these people and like Eugene O'Neill and stuff like that, all these people that were just fucking, why would you revere guys like that in high school? Well, because they made amazing art. And that's the one thing that everybody says about you, that no matter what, you work your ass off,

and you get the work done, and you write the shit out of stuff. Well, some, dude, it's hit or miss, it's all hit or miss. But you do the work. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. And that's, yeah, see, that's the difference between you and just, you know, the guy in the street

who has the, who's got it bad, is that somehow or another, not unlike O'Neill, you know, you balance your, your insane disease with productivity. And that's not nothing. It's not nothing, you know, I've been able to pull myself up and get, you know, I can't write anything. I don't even like to write, but the idea of sitting in front of a computer. But you wrote on Maron.

I did, but I didn't like it. Anytime I had to do a script, I'm like, oh my God. I'm writing a show with Dan Soderneil, with actually Stone Cold Steve Austin as the star. What is the, what's the angle? It's about, it's a cartoon, it's Stone Cold, like retires from wrestling and starts becoming a lawyer for a non-profit historic

black law firm. And it's funny and absurd. We're on the third draft at Peacock and we're hoping, fingers crossed. It's a trip. It's like an action cartoon. But anyway, the point that, I don't know what the fuck I was saying, but that's been fun because it's my own thing. Right.

Oh, that's good. You like to write your own thing. Yeah, but sometimes when you're on staff, it can get tough, it can get very tough. Yeah, I just, I hated sitting in a writer's room with just, no one's saying anything, you're just all stuck on a, on an act break. Yeah, I don't like to, I mean, nobody likes to work.

I don't like to work, I still work, I mean, I've clearly worked, but like, you don't like it, you know, you just kinda wanna. Yeah, it's not as satisfying as just getting up on stage and whatever happens, happens. That's fun. Or it's not satisfying as fucking... getting blottoed, dude, and looking out on a lake. And that's the problem.

Let's not get too excited about that. I'm not, I'm not, but I'm saying that's why I come back. You know what I mean? Because I see, like, uh... that's where it comes back. Like, I'm the closest... I had a sponsor who said this. And he said, the closest that I've ever come to peace is that five minutes after I'm fucked up. And that's, you know, what I,

and I think that that's the goal of my life is trying to find, but I have that now. I have a great- How'd you meet your wife and how'd that happen? How'd she take on this project? Oh my God, right? She's the fucking best. She's been my life saver.

She's not drinking now either because she's like, you're not gonna have an excuse to do anything. She's like, I'm fine. Basically, she was a mutual friend. I always thought she was hot and she was a mutual friend and I'm like, hey know. Basically, like, she was a mutual friend. I always thought she was hot and she was a mutual friend and I'm like, hey, is she single? And she's like, she is, but she's, you know, she just got out of a bad relationship.

And I'm like, ooh, that's where I come in. You know, and I snuck into the TF. Because you know, you always want to go in after a bad, you don't want to go in and like, oh yeah, she was dating a doctor without boarder. She was like, I'm not going to fucking, I'm fucked there. You know, like, and then we just started dating for a little bit. Then we were just friends. And then we were like, I'm not going to fucking, I'm not even going to try. I'm fucked there. And then we just started dating for a little bit.

Then we were just friends. And then we were like, fuck it. Let's make this work. Let's make it long distance. And that week, I emailed Dan Powell. And he's like, oh, we're looking for people for this Michelle job. So I left Superior Donuts.

Actually, I left right at the end of the second season. I jumped right to Michelle, which was a lot of work. But I moved with her to New York. And nine months later, I was out here. And then nine months later, we were engaged. And we got married in Massachusetts. And it'll be five years in October. And the best decision, I made a lot of bad decisions,

but not that one. That's great. Yeah, I lucked out there. Yeah, man. And you're living in New York? Really good at job. Yeah, I'm in a- She's a casting director?

She's a casting director, and she's in cast, she's also a producer. So now we're in New York, we're in Queens and- What part? Sunnyside. Oh yeah. We always like, we have, you know, like at some point we want a little place upstate,

try to like, you know, I'm sorry. I start talking about it like George from Jordan Lenny and mice and men, but yeah. Yeah, so Is that a shotgun shell? Yes, that's cool It was sent in a weird package from a fan That's terrifying. Yeah, I love shooting a shotgun. But like yeah yeah, she's, yeah, so that's been good, man. I've been really lucked out there. That's great. You know?

She took on the project. That's funny. Yeah. So you've just been laying into the standup. And while, what was I going to say about animation? It does seem like there's a lot of room out there to really take interesting risks and not have the confines of reality, so creative opportunity.

I think people are just, you know, that and people are making them. Like it's harder now to, you know, like it's harder to, I mean, you know, it's hard to make any, you know, everything costs so much money and then you have like. Yeah, like Burr had a great success with his animated. Yeah, that was a great show.

Someone wanted to build a show around me, like with cats and stuff, but I just was like, I don't know, I don't know. Like anytime, like, you know, when I think about making television or pitching television, some part of my brain, it's gonna be like, that's gonna be years. I'm not gonna be able to do anything.

Right. That's gonna be a job. I mean, the thing is, if you're doing VO, that's mailbox money, brother. If you're what? Oh yeah. If you get a VO job, that's yeah. Oh no, no, that was the voice, I would do the bad guys. We're doing the sequel. Yeah, oh awesome. I'm the snake, VO, that's mailbox money, brother. If you're what? Oh yeah. Oh no, no, that was the voice, I do the bad guys. We're doing the sequel. Yeah, oh awesome.

I'm the snake, yeah, that's great. And DreamWorks is eight minutes from now. Yeah, you're in and out of league. It's the best. It's amazing. And people love it. People love it, yeah, and I think it's just, like you said, it's where I said,

it's just hard to make, it's really hard to make stuff, especially when you have these heads of these giant networks who are like, yes, Secession's great, but I can make 20 HDTV shows and get three times the profit for that. And I understand, you know what, I understand that too, as somebody who likes money and wish he had more of it, I understand that desire.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what is the name of the special again? Dance Fatty Dance. You know, because that's, there's some people in show business who turn everything down and are like, I'm waiting for my right moment. Me, I go down to the boardwalk, baby, and I I dance for you That's what I do get that get get my shit. You have my dance shoes on my shoe shine

That's that's how I've approached this fucking thing dude. Well time to dance. It was great talking to you I'm glad you're you seem you seem very well, and thank you We'll make it clear again. Dan is sober. He looks healthy. He's got nice color. Uh, he's connected. I'm saying this as I'm compulsively taking, uh, clean X's out and putting them in a little balls cause I'm uncomfortable. But thank you, Mark. And you've always been very nice to me. So I appreciate it. Well, thanks for talking. There you go. Dan St. Germain. You can watch his special dance fatty dance on YouTube for his podcasts, tour dates and

more go to danstgermain.net. That's danstgermain.net. Hang out for a minute. Hey folks, let your imagination soar by visiting audible.ca. Audible has the best selection of audiobooks without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive audible originals, all in one easy app. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, basically any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking.

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to your questions about the election, Brian Eno, mock tales, writer's block, moving to Canada and more. Will you actually move to Canada? I moved to Germany about six years ago after the first Trump presidency and while it's not always easy, I still think I made the right call especially with Trump being the nominee again. Well look you know I've put in place a process that has not yielded anything yet to have permanent residency up here if I need it. I don't really know what that means for me in terms of really making a move.

I do love America, it is my country. But I think the cultural ramifications outside of the political ramifications of authoritarianism, which is very possible, you know, might, you know, be a lot to live with. So I'd like to have the option, you know, I'm not I haven't made any decisions, but the reason I applied for it was to get some relief and know that somehow or another I've got a legit way out. And in, you know, might be all rooted in fear, but I do think the cultural ramifications of authoritarianism and minority rule are already happening.

And, but for me to move to Canada would mean you know, this was me doing something at a retirement age where I want to be I want to have my own freedom and mind to exist in the world without a Constant fear of my government or the people that inhabit my country. So I don't know to what degree it would, that would have to escalate for me to be like, I got to get the fuck out of here. But, but that's really my concern is to have the option on paper and and and if I need to do it do it as opposed to you know end up a

refugee of one kind or another. To get that episode plus all the bonus episodes we post twice a week and every episode of WTF ad free go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast. Here's some guitar from, uh, from the vault. So Boomer lives! boomer who lives monkey Lafonda cat angels everywhere Cat Angels everywhere. Did I say that already?