WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1564 - Moon Zappa

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

When Moon Zappa was on the show back in 2013, she and Marc started dating shortly thereafter. Now that Moon has just written her memoir, Earth to Moon, she and Marc sit down for their first real conversation since their abrupt breakup. Moon talks about the forensic investigation she did of her life, the emotional damage she took from her mother, the pressure of carrying Frank Zappa’s legacy, and the realization that her upbringing was quite sheltered despite her family’s very public image. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I used to say I just feel stuck, but then I discovered lifelong learning. It gave me the skills to move up, gain an edge, and prepare for what's next. The University of Toronto School of Continuing Studies. Lifelong learning to stay forever unstuck. Hey folks, I don't know if you know about this house that I live in now, but one of the reasons I bought it was that the garage had been converted into a room. There was a bathroom put in, there was drywall put on the other side of the door and basically it was no longer a garage it was a room and I thought oh well this is amazing I'll do my podcast

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is Airbnb it. Don't take my word for it. Check it out. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck-a-crats? What the fucking adians? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going there? Everything all right? Today, I talked to Moon Zappa.

She was on episode 434 back in 2013. And we actually started dating a little while after that. God, I can't believe that. I can't believe that that's like over 10 years ago. I can't even like, I don't even know how I was, who I was that, like I don't get it, my timelines are fucked up. Moon and I knew each other way back in the day, probably in the 90s.

We had met and we were pals and we kinda, I felt like we should probably date. You know, there was a little back and forth there that was, you know, very kind of exciting and loaded up and, you know, crushy. And it just never happened, you know. And then we come together again in 2013. And it was one of these things where it was like,

oh my God, we had just both broken up from people, we were both just freshly out of relationships, and we thought like, man, this is it, this is it, this is our moment. And what we didn't really take into consideration fully, I didn't certainly, because I'm a dumb shit. Or, nah, it's not a dumb shit, I'm just, I don't certainly because I'm a dumb shit. Or, nah, it's not a dumb shit. I'm just, I don't, you know, I just don't,

well, bottom line is, the relationships we had gotten out of were both very bad for both of us. Very traumatizing, damaging, crazy, and really hard situations. But we were both free, but like freshly free. Like, you know, really like weeks, months, maybe not even months. And we just locked in with each other.

And I know that some of you know the term trauma bonding, but, and that's sort of like, that's an umbrella statement. If you are a traumatized person or an emotionally compromised person because of whatever you were brought up with or whatever your liabilities are, whatever you've been through, it's very hard to get around the trauma bonding.

Trauma bonding is very exciting. It's an easy path in, in a lot of ways, to a type of intimacy that is just, you know, based in desperate need to feel better and to do things differently. It's not really rooted in all the good things, but it's a thing. And I'm not going to diminish our relationship at all, but it was difficult from the get-go because these people we had broken up with were sort of still lingering around in our hearts and our minds and physically. And it just became very difficult, very fast. It was very hard.

And you know, there were things that happened in her life and in my life, you know, that were, it just became, I just was not prepared for any relationship. I'm not sure I am now, but I don't think we were, we were in an emotional position, either of us, to really handle it. And then her mom got sick and then, you know, I had, you know, my ex was being pretty, a little bit persistent.

Just, it was all chaos in a way. And it didn't last that long. It lasted about six months. And we were just dealing with the heavy burdens of our own lives and then it just was not, we couldn't deal with the burdens of each other's wives certainly. And it was just, it was difficult.

And it kind of burned down in about six months. And I had to, uh, you know, I don't know, it just, it stopped. It was not a great ending. I, you know, we, I just had to, we were, I think we were together about six months and I just couldn't do it for many reasons. And it was never really resolved or anything like that. It was just, it was a fairly clean break. And this is really the first time

that we've talked much since then. We've said hi here and there and texted occasionally. But the bottom line is she wrote this amazing book about growing up in the Zappa household and the sort of trauma that that created and what it did to sort of her sense of self and her life. And there's a lot of great stuff about kind of living with emotional trauma that causes psychological difficulties,

relationship difficulties, life difficulties. But there's also this amazing poetic kind of illustration of life at that time in that house with those people, with Frank and Gail and Ahmed and Dweezil and Diva and that whole world that Frank had created, but also the world of Hollywood and her own opportunities. It's really an amazing document of a very specific music history, but also a very kind of painful and difficult

memoir about her own psychological, emotional, and physical experience of being in an emotionally chaotic environment. So I love the book and I think she's a very beautiful writer, a lot of poetry in her. So that's exciting and you'll hear it. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is one of our longest running sponsors and it's the best way for you to build an online presence.

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WTF, get started today. I would like at this point in time, if I could to come out and identify as a childless cat lady. I don't really jump on the cultural meme train or I'm not following intensely what's going on, though I am more than excited about what's going on. I mean, I just love that, you know, the democratic machine is just, you know,

just punching Trump in the kidneys of his vanity over and over again, poof, poof, just punching him in the kidneys of his ego, poof. It's very exciting. Again, I don't know where it's gonna go or how it all pans out, but whatever's happening now, it's giving me a little pep in my step. You know what I'm saying? But the childless cat lady thing, I identify as a childless cat lady man, and this whole fucking framing this whole idea and I've talked about it on stage It's like just look some people just don't want kids for whatever reason

It's okay There's plenty of kids and maybe their reasons for not wanting them is Actually saving the world as opposed to thinking we're running out of children or the right type of people aren't having children or that everybody should have children because we're no different than dogs or lizards. It's just you got to trust the person's individual choice is the big problem with whatever the fuck is happening right now in terms of the kind of fascistic nature of Christian legislation is that it's denying people choice on all levels just shut the fuck up Let people live the fucking life they want But you know the kids thing it's like look if somebody says I don't want to have kids because you know I'm fucked up and I haven't got my shit together and I don't want to pass that along Well good or if they don't want to have kids because. Well good or if they don't want to have kids

because of environmental reasons or they don't you know they're not prepared for the responsibility or for whatever reason who gives a fuck just shut up go enjoy your kids and the idea that childless people you know don't care about America is crazy. They might care about America more. What do you think? Because you don't have a horse in the race? That you don't give a fuck about the race? I mean, it's just so fucking stupid.

I just don't know who they're playing to. Just let people fucking live the lives they want to live. And this idea that you're going to make it more difficult to divorce people even in domestic violence situations or complete misery. It's like, what is that? What kind of you're making abortion illegal, making divorce illegal or impossible and calling people who don't have children, uh, you know, uh know Treasonous or un-American it's like shut the fuck up Let people live the lives they want. Why is the right-wing Christian machine so dead set in government running the everyone's fucking lives in their personal choices

Holy Christ, I mean you want to have a kid that you don't want to have you want to bring a kid up an environment that You can't get out of even though it's violent and abusive You want to have you know a kid because you're forced to or you want to have a kid You know that comes into the world and and there's no love for that kid I mean, what kind of kids are they trying to make this idea that that kids can just You know suck it up. Yeah, sure kids are tough and they eventually find their way most of them But you want that trauma at the core of their being that that you know to be, you know violently parented or neglectfully parented or abused or

Unwanted or you know struggling with parents who were not mentally ready or able or emotionally ready or able to have children you want just force them into that situation against the will of the of the the parents that maybe didn't want to be parents me what kind of people are you making I got an idea and I've talked about this before, I tried to make it a joke years ago. You're creating angry people. You're creating people that have to struggle from day one.

You're creating people with emotional voids in their hearts from bad parenting. And what is the common factor of those people? Well, either they're either gonna sort of lose control of their lives and end up in a bad situation, perhaps in prison, which happens to be a big business, or they're gonna end up misguided and lost until somebody can take over their brain

and focus that anger and terror and fear and grievance of emotional neglect and focus it on I don't know bad intentions misguided political warfare fascism tell me about it am I just making this up if you have trauma or you decide not to have a child because of your particular precarious emotional situation, if you decide that you have not been able to process your trauma to the point

where you can be responsible enough to have kids without passing that trauma along generationally, if you don't have the will to kind of stop the cycle of trauma and abuse that has traveled down your lineage for however long it's traveled down your lineage, then, and you decide not to have kids? Good, don't. Don't, it's not an experiment. Trauma is generational. Hate is generational. Anger is generational. I wouldn't say it's genetic, but it's close. Anger is generational. I wouldn't say it's genetic, but it's close It's right alongside of that It's right alongside of it how you're wired

by the emotional Motherboard and father board of what you're brought up with is as defining as genetics And I'm talking out my ass, but it sounds right, doesn't it? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Finally, perfect ad for this moment. There's a lot of talk about self-care and a lot of tools out there to help you do it. But one of the essential elements of a self-care routine is that last part, the routine. You can only be at your best when you're taking care of yourself regularly. You've got to keep your gym schedule and your sleep schedule and you should keep your mental

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Visit betterhelp.com slash WTF today to get 10% off of your first month That's better H-e-l-p dot com slash WTF Yeah, let's do it. This is as I said earlier moon and I you know kind of Kind of regroup a little talk a little about you know, back in the day when we were together and how that sort of ended up, and then kind of got into the groove of just

talking about her great new book. It's a very poetic and honest memoir about her life, growing up in the very unique and singular world of the Zappa household but also it deals with a lot of stuff that anybody can experience when you have you know parents that aren't quite parents for one reason or another. The book is called Earth to Moon. It is a memoir as I said and it comes out next week, August 20th. You can pre-order it now. This is me talking to Moon Zappa, the amazing Moon Zappa. Hey listeners, want to diversify your portfolio easily? The all-in-one ETFs from Fidelity

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Funds and ETFs are not guaranteed. Their values change and past performance may not be repeated. They'll leave you with more cash in your pocket for the stuff you love. Select plans even include data overage protection so you can go all out without going over. Don't wait. Our back to school offers are only available for a limited time. Go to Fido.ca or a Fido store near you and save all semester long. Fido, at your side. I used to say, I just feel stuck. Stuck where I don't want to be. Stuck trying to get to where I really need to be.

But then I discovered lifelong learning. Learning that gave me the skills to move up, move beyond, gain that edge, drive my curiosity, prepare me for what is inevitably next. The University of Toronto School of Continuing Studies, lifelong learning to stay forever unstuck. ["The Time Is Now"] You got notes? I do have notes in case, because I have short term memory and I'm just like, what am I here to do again?

What is your short term? What are you here to do again? Are we, so were you nervous? Was I nervous? Coming over here? Well. I haven't seen you in a long time. I haven't seen you in a long time.

So this is the first time we've seen each other since our breakup. Uh-huh. And. The abrupt breakup on my part. It was pretty clean. It was clean. And I think that...

You were so direct. I did very little grieving because of how... Well, we didn't have the chance. Well, you sliced it so thoroughly, so cleanly. We didn't... The possibility of post... Like I've never really... I was relatively, I thought

it was the right thing to do, but I've never been that clean about it. But in thinking about, like I was, I read, I didn't know if I was going to get to read the book, but I knew I had to read some of it. So I started at, I think at Frank's cancer diagnosis and read that. And then I'm like, I gotta read it. Because there was part of me that sort of like, she should have opened with this.

With the death. But- I could have used your notes early on, Mark. It's a bit late now. No, there's no notes. It's great. It's written great. I love it.

You do a thing that I love. I'm a big fan of the poetry of things. So, like, I'm good with, like, what's in the bedroom, all the stuff, because I think that has a great effect. I tried to treat it like I was writing sci-fi, and... What does that mean? Well, to put the reader in a world, and just kind of also write it sort of like a police

report. So I tried to be as neutral as possible. I mean, I still think there's some nudging. Well, I mean, it's thorough, but it's still your point of view. And what I found interesting about it, but wait, I want to, before we do this, let's clear the air, which is not even that dirty, I don't think. So the cleanness of the breakup, all I remember is you calling me a couple of days

after I said, I can't do it anymore, and you said, well, your bike is here in your sneakers. And I said, throw them away. Right, and some of the issues that we had were things like, can you get rid of that mattress that you've slept on with every single person who's ever come before me? And you, you're like, what if I asked you to do that?

I would get a new mattress. And this was completely just not an option. I still have the mattress. That's disgusting. It's in the guest room, but it's a good mattress. Well, here's the thing. That's you loving nostalgia and the memories. But no, that's not true. I don't even think of it that way. I don't even attach it to that.

Right now, it was the last place that Lynn was ill. It was in that guest room. But that's the only thing attached to it. I don't look at mattresses and think like, nah, I did a lot of work on that one. It doesn't don't, it didn't, it doesn't even register that way. It wasn't nostalgia. And I'll let... It certainly wasn't make partner feel comfortable, I'll tell you that. Well, here's, I, okay, I'll take it. But let's just be honest about the type of chaos we were in. Yep.

I mean, I've read the book and I realize that we both gravitate towards chaos a little bit. But we were coming out of, both of us, like barely out of the worst relationships of our lives. The worst ever. Although I've had a worse one since, but yes. What? Yeah, I know. Can you believe it?

How could it be worse than that? But also, like, you know, I only heard, you know, the interesting thing about reading about your family, Frank and Gail, is that, like, whatever that yoga guy was, I mean, you at that time had really, you know, described him as this messianic character, and I'm like, I don't know him. Who the fuck is that guy? You, like, you had given him these magic powers. I'm like, you had given him these magic powers, and like, that guy? I know, that was super helpful. The other thing you, the golden nuggets I walked away

with from our time together was the love of an electric toothbrush. Oh yeah, Sonicare. Yep. The first Sonicares, that must have been like back in the day. That was pleasurable. We, the commitment to fitness, that must have been like back in the day. That was pleasurable.

The commitment to fitness, that was really fun. The partner running, I really enjoyed that. I haven't found anyone else who likes to do that, but that's okay. There was something else that was... Oh, shame. You had a book on your nightstand. Yeah, that guy that... What's that guy's name who wrote that book on shame? And I literally did not understand shame at all. And then when I read that book-

Really, you're soaking in it. Exactly, exactly. It's so close to me, I can't see it. Oh my God, it becomes your entire engine. Definitely. And it's only because of that stuff that, you know, since, but I do, I want to make some sort of amends.

But the thing was is that my relationship that I was coming out of was crazy. Yeah. To the point where, you know, you had to, you know, convince me to get a restraining order and that kind of stuff. And I had never experienced the type of self-erasure or codependency in me until that. And so we're, and you're like completely vigilant, always apparently after reading the book, but you know, there was some missteps obviously, but I just think from where I was, I couldn't, and I don't seem like the kind of guy that is like that, but I really couldn't

hold myself together, you know, in light of, you know, the tornado of you and whatever I was trying to do. Yeah, I mean, to be fair to this other person, I wasn't, I felt so bad for you for what you were sharing about your experience that that was a suggestion. I'm glad you didn't take it because— Which one? Oh restraining order. Oh, yeah. Well, I eventually did.

Oh my God, I missed that chapter. No, you missed it. God, and it wasn't like, you know, I don't really, it was really not, I do a bit about it, which I think you'd appreciate it in that the issue when you have, and I've thought this part of me for so long that, you know, when, because I don't really see myself as a people pleaser, but I do want to maintain

a certain amount of sanity and things. So I will, but for some reason, if someone's persistent, you know, I'll eventually give in. And the basically the thrust of the bid is really that, like, I didn't take a restraining order out because I thought she would hurt me. I took it out because I was afraid I'd get back together with her, that I needed to get law enforcement involved because of my lack of boundaries. But it eventually worked itself out. But I don't want to sit here and talk over you. No, no, it's an interesting thing to,

I mean, so my book basically is the map for how I arrive at poor boundaries myself and how I arrive at allowing unacceptable things in my life. And I knew that before I decided to write the book, And I knew that before I decided to write the book, I felt like I can either be a cautionary tale about succumbing to the victimization I felt. Where do you go when your mother's your first bully? That's not a great start.

Or I could, for myself, say, well, I'm gonna fight through it, and I'm gonna let love win, and I'm gonna, I'm going to be a role model for myself of victory over my history. How's that working? I have to climb that mountain every single day because the damage is real, you know? I know.

I'm tearing up thinking about it. It's so... I know. When I'm reading it, there's part of me that's sort of like, she must be so tired. I am. That's why I say that sentence a lot. I am so tired. Yeah. But I do want to apologize for one thing that I think, but you're not giving me your side

of this. Was your experience in retrospect, in investigation, which you have clearly done through most of your life and left names of relationships, I'm not in there, which is good, I guess. But do you, but how do you frame that in your mind, the experience we had? Because it was fairly short and it was intense, and we were both like brutally ripped open the whole time. Right, I feel, for me, it didn't feel short

because I'd known you for so many years, and so I thought it was gonna be like one of those like, and after 20 years, like get together and it works out. But my mother had just been diagnosed with cancer. And at that time, I didn't realize what was going to come with her illness. And I am really private about the stuff that hits me on a deep, deep, deep level.

So the things I included in the book are, I have perspective on because it's, and some of the stuff is just hilarious. Because whatever, you just, you see the setup for how I end up in those situations. And I hope that those stories deliver. And I don't, I seem like, I think, I think the reader will be like, get out of that room.

So. Well, the thing I wanted to apologize for was that it was the first time your mother went into the hospital. And my misassumption, I remember because I didn't go to the hospital and my niece was in town and I remember it and we had a big, you know, sort of, you were upset that I wouldn't come to the hospital. But in my mind, like, I didn't feel like I had a place

because your family was gonna be there. And now I really read about the family and I'm like, oh my God, I really left her hanging. So I do want to apologize for that. Thank you. Because I prioritize whatever, my niece was there or whatever, I was like, she's got her whole family

and I don't know them. That was my thinking. I'm just gonna be like, I'm gonna draw attention because I'm not part of this inner circle really. And I'm sorry. Thank you. Appreciate that. I really do. Yeah. But in terms of the rest of it, I, you know, for whatever reason, it was not because I had no love for you. I just couldn't handle what you were going through. Yeah. And what you... I mean, that's, I statements are so much more helpful.

I can't handle what you're going through. So I can't show up for you. It would have been a much nicer thing to say, even though it's still terrible. What, you mean at that moment? At any moment, to just speak from an I place of just saying, this is my limitation, or this is my fear or this is my fear.

This is my, because I can work with that. A person can work with something like that. But I'm not unlike you. And I think that both of us are working against our true self interests to maintain sanity for others or to do whatever. Absolutely, for me to find what I need is impossible. It's spelunking in the dark.

Yeah, totally. Being dropped. I can't find myself because I'm so, I mean, I was basically raised to be a Lady Butler. I should have been somebody's personal assistant. Well, what's amazing about the book, and I've been thinking about it a lot, because I do love it, I do love it, but I do, it does make me, the police report analogy is sort of correct to me because there is a certain amount of diplomatically

and honestly and with the correct amount of respect and emotion settling scores here, right? That's interesting. I mean, I wrote a book, you know, Attempting Normal, where I'd really take my dad to task with a certain amount of love. But in retrospect, you know, he got very upset and, you know, he thought it would affect him

and his life legally somehow. And like there was a phone call from him it would affect him and his life legally somehow. And like there was a phone call from him and he was like, you know, the whole family's mad about that. And I'm like, all right, well, it's my experience as well. He goes, well, I'm mad. I'm like, well, what do you want, money? And he goes, yeah.

And he goes, and I'm like, all right, well, how much do you want? He goes, $100,000. I said, I'll give you five. Oh, all right. Well, how much do you want? He goes $100,000. I said I'll give you five. Oh My god, but it didn't matter. Yeah, ultimately, you know, I'm fine with him But I I guess my point is like I didn't know after all of it and looking back on the writing Was it done in good faith? Was I not being spiteful? Did I not do that? To as a fuck you, you know? I mean, I definitely had a fuck you draft that I wrote.

Oh. And then I worked really hard to take the fire out. Yeah. And I also had to consciously not put stories in that I really thought that'd be a revolt if people read it. I feel like they would have just been like. By sort of maintaining, by being honest about your side read it. I feel like they would have just been like... By sort of maintaining, by being honest about your side of it.

Yeah, like if I went further and really told some of the really painful stuff, I mean, I pressed on the bruise as much as I could. And yeah, I mean, I left out some stuff that was, I think, would just not be wise. Yeah. Good. Well, here's what I was going to say is that the stuff you're talking about in terms of

what you struggle with as a person with, you know, difficult parents or inattentive or emotionally abusive or negligent, you know, is a common thing. You know, I deal with it. But what's interesting about your life is that you have these issues, but no one grew up like you in the world. Jared Slauson Right. Yeah, exactly. Pete Slauson It's like, because there's this element of it where it's almost like a, not like a novel, but because of the public person-ness of you and your family, you know, you have an idea of these people. It's not just like the mom that no one knows who did

this to me that I got to get through. All of a sudden, you have to weigh, you know, your perception of these people. Yeah. I mean, I really did feel like we were raised like we were Royals or the Kennedys or... Yeah. And so I had to... there was a public me, a get along with the family me, and then a private me that was just in turmoil. Well, I remember the one time I... I have some very funny moments, mostly involving Moby, who I can't... I just can't. Okay.

And I don't even know if you noticed it, but the one time I went to the house was for that Christmas party. And in terms of the royalty thing, you know, I definitely had the feeling because of the nature of a lot of the guests, I'm like, this is a dying royal family situation. That was at my family's home. Yes. And it was the only time I met Gail. Bagpipers and all the trees. And you know, like, you know, a very odd bunch of guests.

And it felt like, is this entering the Grey Gardens phase? Of the Zappa dynasty. Yeah. Was it? It kind of was. Absolutely. But when you took me downstairs, it was me and Moby and you, and you're showing me the studios,

and that fucker got on every goddamn instrument, and I was like, stop it! Like any room we walked into, we walked into your dad's old studio goddamn instrument. I was like, stop it! Like every, any room we walked into, we walked into your dad's old studio and he immediately is like, blank, blank, blank on the piano. I'm like, you, what are you doing? The funny thing I remember about that tour was

that I don't remember if it was you or Moby said it. I said, oh, that's new. I haven't seen that before. And then you or Moby said, how can you tell? Because there was just so much. I just remember the one room with like literally two toilets at different levels around this corner, five feet away from each other. Yeah, Gail had intended for there to be a bathroom where a parent and child could

pee and poop together. But it was built long after the children needed that size toilet. Yeah. So. And I just remember you showed me Gail's room and it was like this kind of like a monastery. Yeah. It was like, so it was different than the whole house.

Mm-hmm. And it definitely felt like, yeah, no, we can't go in there. I find it weird when people let you go into their bedroom unless you also share that bedroom. I find going into people's bedrooms really weird. I notice that with people in general, if I show someone the house,

like I don't really register it, but I register, they're like, no, I'm good. I don't need to go in there for the, you know. I guess it is sort of a secret space. So, okay. Well, it's where intimacy takes place. Yeah. Like sleeping and being with a partner. But the other thing with the book that I think is interesting is that, you know, you're looking

at all this childhood stuff as a person that has spent her life evaluating their self and why they are their self. So you bring this information that you now know to all of these moments that, you know, because they're pieces of a puzzle of you. Yeah, I felt like I was always solving a cold case on my own or it was an all white puzzle with none of the edge pieces.

Yeah, the stifling of your, that whole idea of, like, if your parents don't kind of seal the lid on your sense of self by giving you the space to build one, it's fucked. It's fucked. Yeah, did you ever read that Firestone book? Had I read that when I knew you? Which one?

The Fantasy Bond. No. Oh my God. Definitely gonna get that. I am loving, by the way, Prince Harry's book. Oh really? Spare. Excellent.

Excellent. Fascinating. Is it more family situation? Honestly, yes. Honestly, yes. Really? Yeah. Isn't that wild?

Yeah. It't that wild? Yeah. It's really interesting. So let's pick up where we left off. Yep. What, like, after Gale passed, that, the stuff at the end of the book, you know, what, because it's not police reporting. It's very, you know, emotional and sort of like whether or not you feel like you've gotten to the point in yourself to where you're really exposing, you know,

the heart of things, the dynamic of the family around both deaths is, it's all there. You know, and like the scene at the cemetery with Gail, Gail's funeral, is devastating. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, those moments with your siblings, it's just like, it's fucking crazy. And it's beyond anything I can understand

in terms of family. I worry that the reader will be like, this can't be. Like, they won't be able, if you had- No, they won't. You read the rest of the book, it makes perfect sense. There's no, like, you're not gonna be like, what is happening? How is this family like this?

Yeah, I think the other thing about my family, and I think it's rare when somebody's final word sets you on a course of just total self-inquiry and it's horror. And to have to overcome, to be bigger than death, which is already a topic that people can't deal with, mortality anyway, I think that that was, that's just, that's one thing I think is so weird

about my life, that's really bizarre to me. And I hope that in was, that's one thing I think is so weird about my life. That's really bizarre to me. And I hope that in writing this book, if anybody ever has to go through something like that or have to have a reckoning with somebody's final word, it's hard. It's really hard. What was hers? Well, basically that she doesn't wish me well forever. Yeah. I mean, that's terrible. Yeah. What was hers? Well, basically that she doesn't wish me well forever. Yeah.

I mean, that's terrible. Yeah. The weird thing about you in terms of my experience or knowing you on and off for a long time is, and it's the same with me because I don't see it either, is that I see you, you're not, you don't, you know, you, yourself is stronger than you think because, you know, you insist on it. And, and people who are, are shattered, who don't

on insist on being reckoned with, they float. I mean, you may float, but you know, you're, you know, you're making things, you're making tea, you're doing stuff. So all that is an effort of self that makes it fairly present. And it's odd to me that all the talk of not having self, I feel that way too, but I do know that myself is in there. It's just a very young. Yeah. And... I'm super stunted in so many areas.

Right. The thing about me is, when I, when I find an area where I'm super stunted, I then go, who's the best at this thing? Because I want to learn from that motherfucker. Yeah, but like, who the fuck are they? And like, I don't... Well, you go searching for those people. I know, but they're, but how are, ultimately, you know, it's like the Wizard of Oz.

You, eventually, you're going to be like, oh, it's just that guy. Totally. Right? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I read the one chapter where you realize that, you know, your guru at that time was just a racket. You know, but like my, and I don't know, I guess it's fortunate, I never had that.

I never, you know, when I get down to that part of myself, you know, I'm sort of like, all right, so the one thing I learned is like if when you're raging and it's coming from an emotional place of, you know, a seven-year-old, you know, that coming out of a 50-year-old man is of a 50-year-old man is abusive and awful, that intensity, so it's like, so stop that. That was what I learned from Firestone, which is just a book, and I'm not even sure I understood the book. And it's that if you have emotionally abusive

or negligent parents, and this is all through your book, is that if you feel awkward and fucked up, you can only blame yourself. Well, if you blame yourself— Because your parents are your parents. But also, if you blame yourself, then something might change. If I can be different than I am, then something externally will change. And that's kind of like—

That's an idea. It's an idea that never delivers. No, because what you do is you put a shitty parent in your head because your parents are what they are. Absolutely. And so that parent, that doesn't change until you change that, whatever that is. And that is the hardest job in the world.

And that's the mountain I climb every day because I've internalized what was the worst of what... You have an inner shitty parent. You have an inner shitty parent. I have an inner shitty parent. Yeah. But do you find that you're making... Because I find that I know, usually, when that one's telling you what to do, I'm like, we're not going to do that. I'm building that muscle. I work with it, finally I found an amazing, amazing,

amazing therapist and she teaches really practical techniques like, number one, just notice if you're dysregulated, oh, I'm dysregulated all day long. And then when you get dysregulated and you notice it, then you could try the five, four, three, two, one, calm down, which is five things I can see, four things I can hear, three things I can feel, two things I can smell, one thing I can taste.

And you calm yourself through your senses. And because as you figure out which sense you need to pay more attention to, it just naturally, you simmer down, you just simmer down. It's a new muscle. It works? It's hard, but yeah, I'm retraining my brain. I'm just being in Vancouver by myself and away from my routines, I've been thinking a lot.

And I'm still sort of like most of what I think about is food and nicotine. Because I'm on and off nicotine now I'm on these pouches. But like, it's okay, it's okay if what I need to do immediately when I land anywhere is go to a Whole Foods. It's okay. If that's what's gonna put me in a level place, fine, go look at food.

Right. Fuck it. Absolutely. But like the times where nothing's going on, ugh, it's squirrely, dude. Yeah, I hear you. I mean, that was the other thing too. You were the, I think the only person I've ever dated who had a temper equal to my own. And that's because what I went through was scary to me. And it could have gotten bad.

Yeah, I was really grateful because I was like, oh, this is what people feel like opposite me. And this is shitty. And I thought we could solve it together and just be like, hey, could you say that another way? Or hey, let's talk about it when we can both be calm or I really had high hopes for the potential of working through the same or similar.

There's so much going on. Oh, yeah. I mean, until there was like, what, eight or nine? Oh, yeah. And, you know, it was like, and then there was that weird, like, because like when I went into that with you, I'm like, all right, let's do this right. I shouldn't really meet the kid for a few months, and like within three days, like, hey, here's my kid.

And then I fucking meet her dad, for whatever reason, in the front yard, and he pulls me aside, he's like, I'm good with this. I'm like, what? It's been a month and a half, what is happening? Yeah, I wish I had known more about insecure attachment when we met than I would have been like. What is that?

What is that? What does that mean? Well, if you had somebody that was outright abusive, you have a better chance in being in relationships because they'll be like, oh, there's that thing I refuse to have in my life. But when there's a little bit of something good and a little bit of something terrible,

that's the hardest thing to navigate. Sure, because you think the terrible will go away, right? Exactly. They're like, well, they can do the good, so they must be able to shrink the bad. Yeah, yeah. But do you find that in yourself as well? Definitely, definitely.

But it's hard to see your blind spots. You need to be in it to- You get so angry over just, like, if you were cooking and I'd say something, like, I know, you know, it's... Yeah, yeah, I had no idea how, I just didn't know how to self-soothe. I just, I was completely blind to that.

So when you're writing this book, like, because like, I haven't really talked to you, and the other thing I remember about you is there was a never- ending text flow of adages. That's my version of Whole Foods. All day long, just sort of like quotes from everybody. Because they were reminders for me of like what was and what is possible. So I was like, wait, this is what health looks like.

Other people think of these kinds of things. like. Other people think these kinds of things. I'm not thinking these kinds of things. I'd love to think these kinds of things, then I wouldn't have to send these kinds of things. Yeah. I guess, I mean, I relate to that, but I don't, I obsess about that kind of stuff. But as life goes on, you realize, don't you,

that no one's doing it quite right. Well, everyone's doing it to their own temperament and interest and whatever. It's rare. Compatibility is super rare. Not just compatibility, but like how- Or acceptance of other, super rare. Acceptance of self is not so rare, but when you don't have it, it's a fucking nightmare. So when, because I haven't known where you've been.

I know you spent time in Taos and I don't know what your life has been, but when do you get like the strength or the wherewithal to sort of take this on? Cause you've written other books and we've talked about your childhood, but you really must've felt a moment where you like, either I'm gonna purge this or I'm gonna process it

or I'm gonna, what is it? What was the moment where you felt it was okay? Because for whatever you say, look, my relationship with my parents is like, I say they're people I grew up with that had problems. I never felt any real maternal or, so I don't feel the attachment that most people have. Like, I can't relate to, you know, feeling like I owe them anything,

which is a gift. But at some point, you had to reckon, you know, with this, you know, how kind of programmed you were to. Well, I just, I just hit a limit where I just thought, when's it my turn? When do I get to have the reciprocity? When do I get to be seen and loved and accepted like I see and love and accept all of you in spite of your many, many, many, many

underlying bold face, many horrible qualities? I just thought that that's, that everyone was gonna do the all for one, one for all kind of a thing. Well, I get that, but what's interesting is that like, over the course of the whole book, even if you know who Frank is or you're a fan of Frank's, and most people don't really know Gail,

but they, even with your need to respect what they were and who they were, they don't come off good. But they, even with your need to respect what they were and who they were, they don't come off good. No. No. You know, there's like, there's no. Well, I really tried hard to have them come off well. I know.

And to say these are, these are their qualities and I accept them. But it doesn't feel vindictive. Yeah. Because you're just documenting your experience. But they were in those beats where people, a couple of beats in the book where people But it doesn't feel vindictive because you're just documenting your experience. But they were in those beats where people, a couple of beats in the book where people think you're being abused one way or the other and you don't see it.

I didn't see it. But it was like, it was total insanity. They were awful, awful parents. Well, it's a pyramid and my dad was at the top of the pyramid. I get it. And all arrows was at the top of the pyramid. I get it. And all arrows pointed toward the top of the pyramid. The non-communicative, you know, what's the word I want, insulated.

Yeah, no, I should probably be in jail, with my rage about feeling so gypped in the family department, but I, that's, whatever, they, they, they, whatever, I'm not blaming them, they, they. They were what they were. Right. But also, the weird thing about having lack of boundaries and a certain amount of freedom on certain levels is you do find your own parameters, right?

And at some point, I think in the book too, I mean, you at some point realize like, well, these are the things I got that are okay. And these are the things I got that are damaging to me. Yeah, I didn't wrap it up with a bow at the end. I definitely feel like... I didn't finish the book going like, she's okay. Yeah, no, I mean, the thing is,

is these things have a lasting effect. And again, I wrote the book hoping that if I can give words to these kinds of feelings and situations that somebody who has it as bad or worse than I do, they can navigate a little bit better and get to loving themselves faster than I did. And, you know, it's, I think it really is about mirror neurons

and seeing other examples that you can strive for. I just, I would always be baffled by, wait, they had a family dinner, they sat at a table. Like I still barely have managed to- When you go to other people's houses? Yeah, I still barely managed to have sit down meals with my own child, who's my favorite person in the world. My dad was my favorite, and now my kid is.

And it's just, that's just, that's- I think it's great that it also works as a sort of like a document of a time. Yeah, yeah. And there are certain things that, you know, people who came up during that time kind of mythologize about music and about the scene that, you know, but it becomes pretty clear that like that

the Zappa house was its own scene outside of whatever was going on in a way. Definitely. And then the other thing that's interesting to me was its own scene outside of whatever was going on in a way. SONIA DARA, DENIS MARSHALL, M.D. And then the other thing that's interesting to me about my life is because I feel like we were raised to be thinking like Kennedys or Royals, that we, that the, I always felt like I couldn't let the public down and end up in rehab or do something

to be, that was unbecoming, that would affect my family. Or because so many people would get LLCs in my name, start businesses with my name. And so I felt, instead of going, hey, that's my name, like a normal person would. Oh, like that baby store? Yeah. I just kept thinking,

well, they're trying to get their lives together. I better make sure that they, I don't mar their chance at a life. It's, that's lunacy. But the other piece of it, the other side of it is that I didn't end up in rehab. Like, there's- Well, none of you are druggies, right?

But my point is, it wasn't just, I mean, I didn't even allow myself to go down that road to see maybe I'm a big stoner or something, I'm not acting out, I'm not finding out about it or whatever. Yeah. I didn't, I just, there were so many things I didn't let myself go through like that normal. You're the opposite.

You're the companion piece to the drug addict. So there's this, I feel like my life has been in reaction to, and then finally I'm now like, well, actually, but who am I if I'm not doing the thing or doing the opposite of the thing? Yeah. What would I do if there was no, none of that? What are you finding?

I'm experimenting right now. Yeah. Well, the other part of the book that was, and I should have talked about it about death and mortality and grief and how people react to it, because that was another component of my reaction to when Gail was sick, is like, they avoid it. My mother avoids it. Yeah, I remember she would, she doesn't want me to go to funerals, and now she's not in good shape.

But you took some sort of bizarro anatomy class, where you were like, I couldn't even quite wrap my brain around the context of this autopsy class. Well, I really wanted to... I mean, I really had to rebuild, what is a person from the ground up? After what? After my mother basically said, in summation of knowing you, eh.

Yeah, but everything leading up to that was, she was a threatened, fucked up, you know, teacher. But I didn't know that. I accepted her. And then she steals forgiveness from me because she doesn't tell me everything she's done. Yeah.

And that is one of, that's one of the biggest cruelties also, to ask for forgiveness, but not tell you everything that she's done. Right. Because. Do they ever, any parent?

But to be not given, I mean, the chance. That was stolen from me. My forgiveness was stolen. Right, and I think that's, you know. And my ability to grieve her therefore was stolen. Right. I have to grieve a different thing. Right, that whatever she gave you,

which was not even half of it. It's not that. It's that the basic idea of we're all in this together was, that was like the stated motto of the family, but it was not put into action. Right. And like in the book throughout, you realize that she, you know, was paranoid, threatened, vindictive. So whatever the all in it together was, is she had built a situation where you guys were fortressed, you know, out of her emotional liabilities to believe

that you were a fighting unit of some kind, but not a family unit, right? Right. A family business. Yeah. Later, right, more became that. Well, we were always signing documents that were related to the family business. But the fact that she, you know-

Who makes your kid sign legal documents from the time you can hold a pen. That's not great. The whole thing is very interesting and very upsetting. But for me, in terms of family reading about how she just iced out all of Frank's family, and they didn't seem like bad people. And you have no reason. There's no reason. Right.

So that stuff is crazy. But what was it after she died? Like, the thing about the, like, I'm talking about my dad has a dimension now and I tell people that, you know, the filter is gone and before they get too far gone, the statute of limitations on what they should and shouldn't tell their kids is gone. So, if you're curious and you want some answers, it's time to go fishing. Mm-hmm, definitely. But you're never gonna get all of it, right? No, of course not. Do you think that you didn't end up following a guru because you had the, you were raised

Jewish where you were fundamentally questioning and there was the chance to be thoughtfully thinking and- No, I just- I don't think so, no, because it turns out that, you know, I don't even know that my mother talks about anything. My mother is like totally emotionally stunted and not, you know, my brother, cause my brother's dealing with her down in Florida,

she doesn't have dementia, but she just, neither one of them were that curious really. I mean, she was an artist, but I think my thing is, it's like for whatever reason, yeah, I never thought that God or spirituality were answers for me. My brother on the other hand was a real searcher and became more Jewish, was running

around hugging people because of Leo Biscaglia when he was a kid. He needed this thing. And even to this day, I'm like, I don't find that I have that, that's going to make me whole or better. And I don't really believe too many people about anything. What about being of service? That I can do. Yeah, I mean, isn't that a form of spirituality?

I guess so. I mean, I'm just saying in terms of like the guru or having some sort of wisdom, like I'll take it. And if I read things, I'm like, I can use that. But I don't crave it. I remember when you saw a photo of me and Laura Dern and Swami Satchitananda and you're just like, oh my God, this is one of the saddest photos I've ever seen. And it was so, I mean, you really did have some real clarity on some things that I was still, as they say, what stays in vagueness. What happens in vagueness stays in vagueness.

What happens in vagueness stays in vagueness. And I have so many situations that I was, whatever, magical thinking. I was just doing my best to be, and I thought that was just whatever, magical thinking. I was just doing my best to be, and I thought that was just optimism, magical thinking. I didn't realize that it was a liability and a detriment. Like I wish I had no hope. Yeah. Almost there.

Yeah. Thanks political climate. Yeah. I wrote something recently that said, hope is a placeholder. And to me, like, it's not that I don't have or have hope, but I... What's it a placeholder for? What should be there?

Existential terror. Right. It's a, you know, it's a bandaid. It's a sidestep. You're right. That's true. And as is most things. Yeah, right. Exactly. To feel the actual thing in its raw form. I think it's terrible. It's terrible, it feels bad.

Really bad. It feels really bad. But if you feel it, then you can let some of it go. That's really the only way. Yeah, because I can't attribute anything to, like I do feel a little better. I know I've made mistakes and I've done, you know, I try to, you know, I think sobriety helped, but I think it was that Ernest Becker book, really,

that denial of death. I think that's, if anything, is what, like, really, the idea that people's need to believe is almost genetic. And that need for community and to somehow feel part of something bigger than yourself in order to kind of keep the existential terror at bay is almost as normal as eating. But it is an act of the mind. And I thought that to me just revealed something about the nature of belief and looking outside yourself that I think kind of broke my brain forever in a good way. Right, I want to read it.

The, but I think also it is through the body that we process. Yeah, you did a lot of body work. Yeah, I don't do that and I carry a lot of shit and I do wonder about that. But exercise, dance, and any movement, swimming, just to say, I'm gonna feel terror right now, I'm gonna feel my fear of my mortality, I'm gonna make shapes with my body and say,

what does it feel like, what does it look like? And that's one way to just start processing it. But I also believe that I am in a fairly profound amount of a denial, so don't look to me like, you know, like, just because So don't look to me like, you know, like that I just because I don't have that stuff, I am coming up against my age and everything else. And-

Well, rigorous honesty is another super important- Yeah, because I think that can get you in your body. Yeah. You know, at least you can own yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And going back to the anatomy thing, it's like, I really wanted to see what we're all made of.

What is the universal thing that we are all, that we all are? And I wanted to, I wanted to physically hold our organs. Well, what kind of class was that? You sign up for it? I mean, that was the interesting thing. Is there a place I can go and just... Yeah.

...just kind of hold organs? I'll tell you after we get out there. I don't know if I want to do it, but I mean, how did you seek that out? Where was that? Well, because I was teaching yoga. And so as part of yoga training, you can take anatomy classes and then further your anatomy lessons by taking a course where you're with a body that's been donated to science. They seemed a little worn out, those bodies. Yeah, you do.

One was fresh and one was used. That's how they do it. So you can see the body in different stages of decay. And how did that whole thing work for you? Well, between that and going to Burning Man and seeing the amplification of love, that one-two punch, and how novelty really puts you in the present, and if you have any trauma,

you're just replaying that brain group. So to do things that are just so heightened, amplified in the opposite direction, that those two, doing those two things back to back, I think really helped me see, just reset my system, the same as cold plunges and certain kinds of breathing techniques, like James Nestor's Breath, that book,

that is a game changer. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, I do, I hold my breath. Yeah. And just noticing throughout the day, same with dysregulation, I breathe basically into my clavicles, that's it,

and I have to remember to breathe all the way down into the rest of myself. Yeah. So. I don't know,icles, that's it. And I have to remember to breathe all the way down into the rest of myself. Yeah. So. I don't know, like, I feel like. Training yourself to feel, to feel is difficult. Yeah. To stay in your body if you've dissociated to survive.

I know. I feel like at some point I just kind of put a lid on it. Mm-hmm. And I think at some point I just kind of put a lid on it. And I think at some point I was sort of like, I can accept, you know, who I am with whatever limitations I have and with whatever liabilities I have. Like, cause I think that in talking about not, like I was told that a parent's responsibility,

if they're good, at some point is to kind of, you know, nurture you and then let you make mistakes so you can figure out the parameters of your sense of self. You know, as opposed to, you know, make you an appendage. Right. Or just panic all the time. Right. And coming back to this, I think there's some part

that if you don't have a lid on your sense of self, I mean, it's like you're gonna be looking to the universe for parenting for the rest of your life. Well, yeah, I mean, apparently the ingredients are roots and wings. You know, the rooting of feeling safe in your home, feeling safe, then there's a place to go. And then, and then knowing that you can always return to that safety, but that safety is the thing that gives you the, the liftoff.

Right, yeah. Because then, then you get to fly on your own and you know, you come back and back. And then when you're, I think there's a developmental stage called object constancy. When you're, I think like two or something, you're supposed to be able to, your parents stay put and then you go and crawl away and travel

and then they're out of view and then you crawl back and then they stay where they are so that you know that that's safe, that you can go and come back and that, and you develop that process. And if, and I received objects constantly instead of object constantly. And they would walk away. And so it's a constant state of disorientation.

Yeah, and panic. Panic. Yeah. Yeah, that's not a great start. Yeah, if you don't have the roots and the wings, you're just falling. Yeah, exactly. Endlessly falling. The movie Gravity, I think I had to stay in the theater

20 extra minutes just being like, that's how I feel, except I never landed. Yeah, yeah, I'm still falling now. Yeah, so in doing this, because I found when I wrote anything that there is a sense of discovery that happens when you write. Yes.

You know, where you're like, oh my God, you know, like, because it just comes out in that different way. I mean, how do you, and I appreciate the fact that you used the word cock and not dick. It's sexier. I think so, but like, you know, it's like,

I made that change years ago. Cock, it's not a dick. But I mean, today, you know, having written this book and have you, has anybody, well, what is, what's going on with you and the siblings, nothing? Oh no, I just went and saw Sebastian Bach and Santa Anna with Ahmet the other night.

You did? Yeah, because I look for the places where there's the Venn diagram overlap and how I can stay connected to them in the ways that they're available. Yeah. Because connection is important to me. And it's, you know, I have to do a little check-in

with myself, like, how do I feel today about the stuff that's unacceptable? And then I'm like, well, we see it differently. Has all the legal stuff settled down? Oh yeah, all the legal stuff's unacceptable. And then I'm like, well, we see it differently. Has all the legal stuff settled down? Oh yeah, all the legal stuff is done. And do you have a relationship with the other two? Dweezil won't speak to me. You don't know why?

No. And I mean, I do know why. I suspect rather. I can't, he's unwilling to sit down and have an actual conversation. I reach out probably every, at least once a year, and say, ready yet? Yeah.

We doing this? Because I just, it's to me. Gets crazy getting old. It just doesn't make sense. Yeah. But they, you know, that's his choice. Right. And if that makes him feel better,

then of course I'm all for it. With my sister, yeah, I wish I was closer. Yeah. Sorry. It's okay. Because like when I was, when we were together for that time, like everybody was still pretty tight. Yeah.

Yeah. So that all came unhinged, but in writing, like how do you, do you find that, how did it change your perception of your parents? Well, a couple of things happened. One was I did end up having more empathy for Gail because when I would look at all the tour dates, when I did a little bit of research, I was like, good Lord, she was there with one of us, she was there with two of us, and then she was there, good Lord, she was there with one of us.

She was there with two of us, and she was there with three. Then she was there with four of us, and he was doing this. So like a year at a time sometimes? Yeah, at least nine months. And then all the financial stress, and then literally having a business in the house. So every surface was-

With barking pumpkin. Barking pumpkin, everywhere. And so I think she was just on a runaway train in a lot of cases. But when you look at your own sort of, there are certain things that I imagine you see that you got from her that aren't necessarily bad, but in reading how you perceive them now,

with her sort of kind of random spirituality, witchcraft, this and that. Her convenient spirituality. Yeah. That, you know, it's hard to, do you ever, because of that, I mean, do you question your own sort of craving for it all? Of course I do. In some ways, it's a connection to happy memories,

which is so sad that that's the happy memory. You know what I mean? So, you know, flipping through some book about, whatever, yeah. Druids or something. I'm like, oh yeah, that's what I remember. I mean, she took us to Stonehenge. That was amazing.

So you're able to empathize with her as a person that was constantly overwhelmed and in crisis. Yeah, I mean, I saw her as broken growing up. And then I just never thought it would get turned on me. I don't know why. I just, that was just, I just didn't think that she would turn that on me. And then with my dad, I think I,

I just, I really saw him as a little autistic or something, something undiagnosed, because he definitely did not know how to really show up for other sufficiently. Emotionally for anybody. Right, and so, but I, and I still, he was still the funniest, smartest, most interesting person. And he was so himself that there's something weird

and amazing about being opposite somebody who's like, this is me, take it or leave it. Because then you, when you hit an edge, then you can be like, oh, how am I with this edge? It's a very weird thing yeah and also like like I noticed too that in a book that is so you know personal about self-assessment that and also the assessment in terms of emotional assessment psychological assessment of family you don't use any diagnosis. Right.

Like it almost seems on purpose. Because it's not my job and I'm not a therapist. But even for yourself. Well, I... Because people throw around labels all the time. Yeah. Narcissistic, borderline. Yeah, I try to not do that because at the end of the day,

it's how your brain does stuff. A label doesn't change that or help that, I don't think. No, it just makes people put you in a box that they don't even understand. Right. I don't really see the value of it, and it's not my job to do that. But I mean, do you look at Frank outside

of the emotional impact of being a compulsive, philandering person as having this, like almost an addiction. Definitely. Definitely, definitely. That's, yeah. I've definitely viewed it as, those are the three things he likes. Smoking, getting blowjobs, and having people clap for him. He really loves those things. And caffeine, yeah.

Yeah, but in writing music, obviously. But so four things. But to the detriment of everything. All else. And no acknowledgement of the sacrifices made by all the rest of us so that he could do those four things as much as he wanted. In other words, if somebody had said,

now it's your turn, or what are you working on, or what are you thinking about? Or hey, let me make sure you know about how money works or anything. Yeah, I didn't know any of that either. Yeah, so. How to rent an apartment. But that's so interesting too, that you live,

it's a sheltered life in a very weird way. Completely. Because what sheltered usually means is protective. Completely. But it was only protective out of Gail's paranoia and anger. But everything else, you know, kind of moral compasses, you know, learning things properly, all the stuff that you would associate with somebody who's been ridden by sheltering parents to be disciplined, you had almost complete freedom, and then you end up hobbled.

Feral. Yeah. Absolutely. But feral, but frightened, right? you end up hobbled. Feral. Yeah. Absolutely. Feral, but frightened, right? Feral and hobbled, yeah. So you're around naked people all the time, your dad's out fucking everybody, and there's this weird kind of thing in the culture at that time, but you end up kind of paralyzed around sexuality and stuff.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, I definitely got some not great messages about women and my own explorations. Yeah. And I know that it's everybody's journey. Everyone is gonna have to explore all those things for themselves. Yeah. But I think that when the world is holding your parent

I think that when the world is holding your parent and the parent's choices up as gospel because the label genius. Also just because they're parents. Right, yeah. But when there's also the outer world. Oh, the outer world, right, right. Okay, yeah. Confirming that pedestal role, then it's doubly difficult to explore. I felt there, like the book was like exercise

in my own empathy, I felt bad for you. Thank you, thank you. I mean, I- The whole arc of the Valley Girl phenomenon, it's just brutal. It's fucking brutal. It is. Cause I don't know that, you know, the way it transpired

and then that, you know, that event where you're thrown on stage in Sweden or wherever. Germany. Germany. And then your mom just says it was because now we can write off the trip. It's fucking horrendous. As a business trip, yeah.

But, and also just the sort of all the trying, you know, because I share that with you in that, like, you know, you just keep trying and it worked out for me, but late. But also there's all this embarrassment involved in trying and also putting yourself in situations that you're not ready for because you want the opportunity. And it's really devastating.

And I related to that in a way that my biggest fear in life was being embarrassed because my mom was embarrassing. She would embarrass. But, and then I choose this thing, I choose the most embarrassing profession that you can choose. And someone just pointed out to me recently, the reason, you know, you do comedy is to, to re-engage with the family dynamic. But also to heal it because if you can live through it, if you can live through the exposure. But that is a guaranteed traumatic path.

The idea is like, I'm going to put myself in a position and if I get through it. Exposure therapy. Right. But it's crazy because it's just sort of like, you know, I guess it sort of works, but I don't think it helps in processing. I think it gets you, you know, tough. Yeah. But I don't really know that it helps to process whatever it is that you do.

Right. And it doesn't allow you to feel soft and safe. I don't feel it. Right. That's my biggest fear is now I'm just sort of like, you know, love is overrated, happiness is fleeting. You know, I'm okay. I can kind of, love is overrated, happiness is fleeting. You know, I'm okay, I can kind of,

I've got money saved, I can eat wherever I want. Right. Well, that's good that you have a backup plan. To sit and eat? To sit and eat, that sounds like a good backup plan, but I would say you're allowed to also have joy. I just saw this little talk Brene Brown gave about how. I love her.

I love her so much. About how our biggest fear is feeling joy because if you've had trauma, then you're staving, you think you're staving off the other shoe dropping by not letting yourself fully feel the joy. But in fact, it turns out when you feel the joy, that's a reserve in your gas tank that says this is possible.

But if you don't really allow it, then you're not building that. But the mechanism to allow. Yeah, exactly. You know, you have to identify where that is. Correct. Yeah. So like, yeah, it sounds like a great idea, but like, all right, so is there an instruction book?

Well, you could probably get her on the phone and then can she give us just a two person pep talk? I guess so. Come on. Maybe. Yeah. I don't know if I could get her on the phone. I did an interview with her years ago. Yeah.

But the joy thing is too, it's the vulnerability. If you're a vigilant person around, you know, the fear of emotional rejection or pain, the vulnerability of joy, it's like, I don't wanna share it. Like if I feel it, even for a moment, I'm like, I'm glad there's no one around. So that's a problem, that joy is embarrassing, that vulnerability, because I think about this all the time.

Why am I not taking more chances creatively in exposing my vulnerability in a way? Because, you know, bullies broke me. Mm-hmm. You know, or emotional detachment broke me somehow. Well, but you can, it broke you, and that could be a past tense sentence. I mean, this is what I'm fighting, too.

You know, I could stay down, you know, fall down seven times, stand up eight. And I just, I always think about that Monty Python bit. It's just a flesh wound. I mean, that's me every day. I mean, when I went to the- Because you're so sensitive. Yeah.

And the least little thing, when I make an effort towards, you you're so sensitive. Yeah. Yeah, and the empathic thing. And the least little thing, when I make an effort towards, you know, leaving my house, for example, and something bad happens, I try so hard to have that not reinforce it's unsafe to leave my house. Do you know what I mean?

Or destroy your whole day. Exactly, so I went to see Sebastian Bach with Ahmet. I didn't want to go in the first place, but- Of all people, Sebastian Bach, interesting. It was a great show. He's an amazing showman. It was fun to sing along with the songs I know. Um, but, um, I, I, we drove two and a half hours back to where all of our cars were parked,

and I lost my car keys and my house keys somewhere along the line. And I literally, I wanted to just like, I guess go after myself, go after that. Like, I just wanted to, I had all this energy in my body and I just wanted to lash out. And I just thought, what are the actions I can take? And I was like, I can't call these places

until tomorrow, when the restaurant opens and when the venue opens. And I was just like, nope, it's just, there's actually just boring steps that have. when the restaurant opens and when the venue opens. And I was just like, nope, it's just, there's actually just boring steps that have. Well, that's incredible growth. It is incredible growth. I mean, like, because I'm the same way.

Like, you know, you have a sort of order of things. That could have derailed me. And I guess other people just have this basic like, oh, but I will, I just, if I wanted to, I could set a timer and just be like, okay, have a tantrum, pity party, table for one, and now it's time to do the things we can do. Yeah. My brother is a guy that, you know, is always like his wallet, everything is,

you know, he never, he's always losing everything. So his, like he told me, he was in Spain, you know, with his partner and they'd just gotten there for a vacation, and on day like one, someone stole his phone. And just him telling me that, I'm like, oh my God! Yeah, yeah. What did you, did you, was it on the cloud? What is happening? How do you even fucking deal with it?

Did you contact the consulate? Yeah, right! Like I couldn't even handle hearing it. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, yeah, it was okay. We just, and I'm like, what? Well, good for you having lost everything in your life all the time. You could just have that acceptance.

Because I don't like admitting to myself that I'm any kind of control freak, but I keep my life pretty small. And it's because, like, and I'm constantly thinking, I'm always thinking, like, literally thinking about, and this is another way I self-soothe, I guess, like, I know how many pens are in my travel bag. And if there's not three and all the little things. Oh, don't think I don't do a spoon, fork, and knife check and just be like, they all there?

They, we good? They there, so they're there? They're there? Good. But it's They there, still there? They there? Good. But it's not, it's not. I don't know why my anxiety rests on my flatware, but it does. And I just, I'm like, okay, Moon, let's count the spoons again.

Sure. But you don't see, it's not OCD. Oh, and by the way, many are missing. Really? And no way, who knows where they went? That's right. Yep. And I just- Flatware, that's interesting.

Yeah. I could be that flatware today and something else. Yeah, I'm sure I have some OCD and I'm sure it's from wanting to control what I can control, for sure. Well, that's all that vigilance stuff. Yeah, hypervigilance is exhausting. But like I don't, like, do you see,

like, cause I know like I don't I know, like, I don't rage anymore. Yeah, I don't. Because I understand it, where it's coming from emotionally, and that was self-learning and growth. There are things I don't do anymore because of their impact on other people or on myself. And do you do the gratitude list business? I try. I try.

I try. Do you ever ask that question? Like Jerry Stahl always asked me, he's like, you know, when I have, I'm spinning or something. He says, you know, cause he got it from Selby, recovery stuff, you know, he's like, what are you getting out of that? Mm-hmm, yeah.

And I never understood that question for years. Yeah. But you know, what am I getting? This is my operating system. Totally. First of all, I think I didn't choose my eye color, my height, my gorgeous little A cups. I didn't choose my physiological responses to things.

But once you kind of identify what's in your goody bag, and maybe it's shittier than someone else's, but you still have to own that bag and do as much as you can with it. And that's- And also the brain, including that? Of course, of course, exactly. The through line of acne in this book is just horrendous.

Yeah, I mean, really, I can't even tell you how damaging it is to have something that is just something nobody wants, you know, out of the gate. There's so many moments in the book where it's just like, oh, poor Moon. That's just even that thing. If there's someone who could just deal with my back acne, I can't reach on my back. I'd be most grateful. But even that thing in the record store. Oh, yeah.

Like those, because those, I do remember those things. They're scarring. Because they're embarrassing and they provoke shame. Absolutely. Well, yeah, and they provoke comparison, which is so poisonous. Mm. Whew. Oh, and then the whole cats business, the show.

It's like, it's all very beautifully written. I enjoyed the book. Thank you. I'm just like, there's like three chapters I haven't read because I started where I started and then I went back to the beginning. Yeah, and again, I really saw that we all suffered in our home. And so I was so looking forward to all of us being like,

we made it, we did it. Now we can live the life that's meant for us together. Do you know the sibling thing? And so that was, it really is like a lost pile up. And I'm just trying to, as you said, recalibrate. So okay, so those are just people I knew growing up. That's so sad to me, but okay. Yeah, I mean, my brother and I, I understand him, but I do like look at other families

and stuff and, you know, they're not as close as you think a lot of them, you know what I mean? People get older, they get lives and, you know, who the hell knows what they're going through and- I literally cannot watch award shows when people thank their spouses or their family or God or anything that they feel supported by. I'm just like... I just appreciate when they thank their publicist. I'm like, finally, an honest broker. You know, I don't know...

No, but I do think some people either know how to self-soothe or they really do have support. And I find it really fascinating. And I think a lot of them come from at least one person really was on their side, like the whole time. Yeah, I used to say like- The gift of childhood boredom so that you could daydream. Yeah, if you had one good parent, you're probably okay. Yeah. Ish.

Yeah. And how does it feel now that there's an arc to, one good parent, you're probably okay. Yeah. Ish. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how does it feel now that there's an arc to, and maybe I'm, I don't want to sound rude, there's an arc to the relevance of Zappa, you know, in terms of the world. Like now it's a fairly insulated group of people that, you know, are Zappa nerds. Is that a relief? Oh, I mean, Universal is tasked with generating new material for the current fans and the fans to come. I mean, they've invested a lot of money in making sure that there is content, and there is,

and there was a vault of a million things that never saw the light of day. Oh really? Yeah. But, I mean, there are many ways that Frank can still be enjoyed and received in new ways. I've always wanted to do like a family memoir or to do some kind of a family documentary or some kind of a biopic or I mean I've got a thousand ideas of ways to keep him seen and I mean my book I hope it brings some interest. I mean I really

tried to show a side they've never seen. So there's something that still sort of operates from that place where we've got to keep Zappa alive. Well, less so now because what I really want to do is keep my own art alive. But I think that there is, I mean, Dweezil's out there playing the music. And when I see little kids shredding.

Zappa? Yeah, on a guitar. It's amazing. Or the drums or whatever. They just, it's. And just Dweezil, does he have some, is the legal thing working in his favor now? Can he?

Yeah, I think he's, I think he's. He can play and make the money off of his. I think so. I don't really know what the circumstances are. But it was really fun to see Sebastian Bach's two kids. One playing the drums. Oh yeah. And one playing searing guitar solos.

Yeah. Yeah. It was unbelievable. And outside of the writing, what's your primary forms of self-expression these days? Well, I have a tea company. What's that called? It's called Moon Unit Tea.

And I just finally, after a million years, launched a website. I know no one goes to them anymore, but that's where you can purchase my tea. I love making art that makes me laugh. I love taking photos of the valley. Yeah. Because it's just such an atrocious,

like it's so awful that it turns beautiful again. Do you still take pictures of couches that have been thrown out? I love doing that, yes. I just took a photo and my kid just painted that photo and didn't, I'm gonna send you a picture of the couch that. And how are they doing? They're doing amazing.

Yeah, what are they up to? Art, art, art, art. Oh really? Yeah. That's great. Totally self, first of all, I think you know, has my dad's birthday. Right.

And so it's just, I'm like, you're back, dad, you're back, making nonstop things, like makes me look like a slacker, which I love. Well, that's definitely one of the benefits of that upbringing is that there was some sort of, you know, premium put on creativity. Yeah, not mine, but yeah, but as an idea, yeah. The thing about being around people

that are really just self-serving is if you are a doormat, then you are exposed to the skills you should try to develop in yourself and then come into balance because I don't think somebody who's so self-serving can come into balance. They, they, they don't, they're not going to make their work harder and, and, and work harder and get the same thing they always get working harder. I can see how illogical that would be to somebody

who's like, I just grab what I want, and I don't, why would I have to think about you also? I never know how people do that. I don't have kids, and because of many reasons, all of them choices. But the idea that people have kids they don't have relationships with is just baffling to me, but it's not unusual.

Right, well it depends on what you value. Yeah, I guess so. And it depends on if you value that the people that you supposedly care about, that you want them to succeed and surpass you. Yeah, well your mother was threatened by you, so there was no way she was gonna be able to give you that. Yeah, I think parents who really care about their kids

want their kids to go farther. Yes, yeah, yeah. But that's, it's not a minority, but there's plenty that don't for whatever reason. They may say they do, but yeah. Yeah, I guess I would just say to people that feel marginalized or hopeless or beaten down like the other guy or the other thing, one, that that can just be a story that you give a different ending to. And it requires a lot of effort.

But it's, I don't see another path because I refuse to be beaten down by things that are unacceptable. Outside of just life. Yeah, that's right. Just let life do that. And the thing is, I also like the idea that we are not our age, we are the energy we have.

Yeah. And that's important to me too, because for whatever reason, I might've gotten a temper, but it's also fuel. And that's something Frank would always say, anger is fuel. Yeah. He would say happiness is not a goal. But. I'm on board. But I would say happiness is not a goal. But. I'm on board.

But I would say happiness is a byproduct. Maybe he didn't finish the sentence. If you let it happen. Yeah, if you do the things you love, it will turn into happiness. But there's also that thing, it's like, I will be reckoned with, I will be seen, no one's gonna fuck with my out, look what I did.

Mm-hmm. That's interesting. Yeah, and just really do it for yourself. Yeah. I mean, at one point, he hired an orchestra just so he could hear his music played by an orchestra. It was just for him. Somebody else liked it too? Great.

I mean, that's amazing to me. Yeah. Well, thank you for writing the book. Thank you. It was great. I really enjoyed it. And I'm happy to see you. Nice to spend time with you. Yeah, it's really fun to see you too, Mark. Okay.

Okay. There you go. Moons Zappa. Oh, heavy, heavy, but great. She's great. There you go, Moons Zappa. Oh, heavy, heavy. But great, she's great. You can pre-order Earth to Moon right now wherever you get books. It comes out next Tuesday, August 20th.

Hang out for a second, will ya? Hey folks, I don't know if you know about this house that I live in now, but one of the reasons I bought it was that the garage had been converted into a room. There was a bathroom put in, there was drywall put on the other side of the door, and basically it was no longer a garage, it was a room. And I thought, oh, well, this is amazing. I'll do my podcast in here. And honestly, aside from using it as a place to do the podcast, this is now a perfect space to host on Airbnb. Now do a little thought experiment for yourself. Think about where you live.

Got extra bedrooms, a guest house, maybe your whole house is just very comfortable even when you're not home. While you're away, your home could be on Airbnb. It's easy to do and it's a great way to earn some extra cash. Maybe you can cover the cost of your summer vacation or fix that other part of the house that you've been putting off. There's extra money just sitting there. All you got to do is Airbnb it. Don't take my word for

it. Check it out. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. On each step with Peloton, from their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app.

Call yourself a runner. Peloton all access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. People, we've got a bonus episode tomorrow for full Marin listeners that many people have requested for years. In 2011, we did a live show in New York City that we called The Blue Show featuring some of my favorite filthy comics. Bobby Kelly,

Kurt Metzger, Anthony Jeselnik, Joe DeRosa, Amy Schumer and David Tell. You have like all these cool fans you gotta like answer all their emails and like they have questions and shit that's really fucking that's a lot of work for you. I know. That really cuts into your self-hate time. It really must like, you must have to set a timer, like two more emails, one more tweet, and then back to hating myself. I mean, honestly, you know, the office is closed. The buffet of sadness begins.

That episode hasn't been available for years, but we're putting it up on the full Marin feed tomorrow. To subscribe, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. And again, this show is sponsored by BetterHelp online therapy. It's hard to make time for the things that keep you healthy, but being consistent with self care is like working a muscle.

And when life gets crazy, that muscle keeps you strong. Therapy is the ultimate self-care, and BetterHelp makes it easy to get started. With affordable online sessions, you can do from anywhere. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Learn more at betterhelp.com. That's better, H-E-L-P dot com. And a reminder, before we go,

this podcast is hosted by Acast. And here's some guitar from back in the day. I'm a man of my own I'm a man of my own I'm a man of my own I'm a man of my own I'm a man of my own I'm a man of my own I'm a man of my word, I'm a man of my word I'm a man of my word, I'm a man of my word Boomer lives! Monkey!

La Fonda! Cat angels everywhere!