WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1572 - Lupita Nyong'o

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

She may have won an Oscar for her first film role, but Lupita Nyong’o spent the early part of her life hiding her desire to be an actor. Lupita tells Marc about growing up under autocratic rule, living in a country where creative voices were suppressed, and learning how to speak out even when it’s risky. Lupita also explains why she followed up 12 Years a Slave with Star Wars and how A Quiet Place: Day One helped cure her fear of cats. (Check out Lupita’s new podcast Mind Your Own, launching September 19, and her new animated film The Wild Robot, in theaters September 27.) Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey folks, let your imagination soar by visiting audible.ca. Audible has the best selection of audiobooks without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive audible originals, all in one easy app. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, basically any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being. Enjoy audible anytime while you're doing other things. Household chores, exercising, on the road, commuting, you name it.

Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine, without needing to set aside extra time. You might want to check out some audiobooks by our recent guests like I Curse You With Joy by Tiffany Hannes or Sonic Life by Thurston Moore. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. Hey folks it's been a new experience for me up in Vancouver I've had to arrange a little life for myself while I'm there. I get comfortable living in a new country for a while Thankfully, I've been able to go back home every couple weeks or so which helps me keep grounded

But if I wasn't coming home regularly that would be four whole months I'd be up in Canada, which means four months My place is sitting there empty that would be a good scenario to host it on Airbnb and make some extra cash So think about a situation that you've got coming up or you won't be at your place We all have vacations or extended stays somewhere else while you're away your home could be an Airbnb But it doesn't have to be your whole home. A guest house works, even a spare bedroom. If you're like me and you like showing off where you live, now's your chance to do it and make some extra cash at the same time. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca slash host. Alright? Alright. Alright, alright

All right, let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking adians what's happening a mark Marin This is my podcast WTF welcome to it. How's it going? I? am coming in for landing here in Vancouver. This is the last week, I believe, of this production I'm involved with. And I don't know, it's been, it's been a very, I don't know if the word is cathartic as much as it is kind of mildly enlightening in a lot of ways, in personal ways, in cultural ways. It's been a pretty great experience on a lot of levels.

I don't know what I was anticipating. I do know that I didn't do a lot of the things that I thought I would do. And I know that's a pattern. And I know I need to kind of think about it. I don't know at what point one kind of is onto themselves enough to just be like, what are you thinking, dude? You're not gonna do all that shit. It's like, what are you thinking dude?

You're not gonna do all that shit. It's like, no, no, no, I'm gonna do all this shit. I'll try to explain it. Because it is something at this point in my life, at this stage in the game, I should sort of know about myself by now. But maybe I'll get into it in a second. Today on the show I talked to

Lupita Nyong'o. What an amazing conversation on so many levels. I mean she's she's just a generally impressive person. She's I guess you would call a global citizen. She speaks four languages. She has called Kenya, Mexico, and the United States, her homes. She won an Oscar for her very first movie role in 12 years a slave. Since then, she's been in the Star Wars movies, Jordan Peele's Us, the Black Panther movies, and a lot more. Amazing person. She's written a best-selling children's book.

She has a new storytelling podcast called Mind Your Own, and she's voicing the main character in the new DreamWorks film, The Wild Robot. But man, it's one of these people that you talk to, if you're lucky enough to have an opportunity to talk to people that just makes you realize that your life is so small and not necessarily unimpressive, but certainly limited given the possibilities that are out there for us all to explore in this world we live in, you know, culturally, creatively, politically.

I mean, I'm doing a lot of thinking, but that's really where most of my traveling happens. And a lot of the thoughts that I'm having are cyclical and they operate in patterns, they operate in spirals. Every once in a while, you know, you can kind of throw a new one in there and hope it catches and then it kind of opens up the spinning circle a little bit. But in terms of really getting out in the world in a way that is engaged and curious and active, I just, I don't do it. And it's not that it's a liability,

but given the possibilities of opening your mind and opening your heart to all the different, you know, types of people, types of art, types of culture, types of of uh interests that we get stuck in our own little thing, our own little mental, emotional, psychological room, and you just sit there and speculate or talk yourself out of doing things or or think it's going to be too much of a hassle. I'm talking directly to the audience of me right now but maybe some of you can understand that. That I fundamentally, I don't mind traveling but a lot of times when I do travel I just, you know, I get there and I spin out over bullshit because my brain wants to lock into the things that make me

comfortable. And sometimes, you know, going out of your comfort zone in a very real way, environmentally, like changing your environment completely, it's frightening, but that's where like you can really sort of experience how small you are how relatively, you know unimportant You are no matter who you think you are what you think, you know, and just how big the world is So to have a conversation With somebody for for whatever reasons and a lot of them were just familial had moved around so much and comes from very intelligent and academic people

and lived in Kenya, which I have no idea. And this has happened a few times on the show and my feelings were always sort of the same. Like, what am I doing with my life? I mean, what, I'm just sitting here spinning my dumb little plates all the time with very little variation. Like I learned a new guitar lick.

I came up with a new joke. I ate some interesting food. You know, but usually like oddly, those are the things that I gravitate towards when I go other places. Like where are the things that I gravitate towards when I go other places. Like, where are the things that will make me feel comfortable? As opposed to where are the things that I know nothing about and are surprising and enriching and mind-blowing? You know, those are secondary to me. Like, all right, I need to find the one place where I can buy the bread.

I need to, where's the one restaurant that I'm gonna, you you know go to as much as possible while I'm here Is there is there a place where I can go that you know makes me feel grounded? and I guess that's just the the the reality of me and And it's also been why it's been difficult for me to travel. And then sometimes you travel and you get stuck in the sort of rut of seeing the things that you have to see and not getting off the beaten track or not, you know, kind of letting the day take you. Again, this is being directed at an audience of one, and that's me. And it does sort of play into some of the things I was kind of experiencing being up here for so long, being away from home. I mean, this is really the longest I've been away from home. I obviously have gone

back pretty frequently, but to really kind of dig in in another country, another city, granted it's Canada, it's not a complete jarring experience. But I've always been horrendously nervous about it. Again, talking to me. Hey, look, I've added some dates here in Los Angeles. I'll be at Dynasty Typewriter next Monday, September 16th. I'm at the Elysian on Wednesday, September 18th. I'll be in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on Friday, September 20th. Then I'm in Phoenix at the Orpheum Theater on Saturday, September 21st. and then back here in LA I'm at Largo on Thursday October 3rd. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace our website WTFpod.com is powered by Squarespace and it has been for years

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today So some of this stuff I'm talking about makes me a little crazy, you know, because people talk about traveling and like, I don't even know how to fucking take vacations. It's so fucking, I just, you know, I kind of work, I live my life. There's no real difference between me working and living my life. And when I do work, like in this situation where I'm up here on a production,

I've got every, it takes all of my energy to sort of like, you know, keep my shit together and do the job. And because I'm so unaccustomed to sort of being away and being, you know, involved in these longer projects that I'm here, I'm at the end of it now. You know, I've got a week left and the whole thing feels like a fucking dream. I don't even know if I did it.

I mean, I've done, we're shooting the last episodes of this dream. I don't even know if I did it. I mean, I've done, we're in, we're shooting the last episodes of this show and I don't even like doing the first episode with me and Owen starting out, me and Owen Wilson starting out, uh, in the first scenes, it feels like it was like five fucking years ago. And the thing that, that gets me is that, and I used to do this even more. Like there used to be such

specific things that I needed to travel with just to make me feel grounded. Like I was looking in my cabinet the other day and there's this travel water boiling pot because I remember at some point I was drinking tea compulsively because I decided I didn't want to do coffee. It was too much. So I was drinking you know like a gallon of hot black tea a day You know thinking I was doing something better But I was just trying to figure out how to get the same jack the same juice out of a different type of caffeine delivery system

But somewhere along the line someone told me that people if you ask for a water boiling pot at a hotel There's a good chance that somebody like boiled their underwear in it Now, I don't know if that's true but I just remember like I needed to have this certain type of travel teapot so I could make the tea the way I wanted to make it and it had to be part of what I brought with me on the road. That along with you know gym clothes you got to bring the gym clothes and you know certain books. Books that I've never read that have been sitting in my house for years I'm like I'm gonna read it this week well because I'm gonna, I'm going to read it, uh, this week. Well, cause I'm going to be on a plane and I'm going to be in a room.

And I, you know, I've been doing that kind of shit for decades. I came up here to Vancouver with an entire library of stuff, you know, heavy shit, man, you know, like books are like, I'm finally going to get to this gab or Mahtay book. I'm finally going to read this philosophical text. It's time that I learn algebra, whatever it is. And you know, and I make plans like I'm bringing my hiking boots. I'm probably going to get out there and hike as much as possible. And look,

I went on the one hike, but then eventually I just lock into the patterns. I've got the book sitting there that I'm just going to have to bring home and put back in the pile where I pulled them out of from, you know, when I left for Vancouver three months ago, read none of them. And in like, look, obviously I'm working all day. I've got to, you know, act in these scenes and I've got to do the script and I've got to know my lines and all that stuff. And that's not nothing, but I, I don't know when these just stop fooling yourself. And it's slowly starting to happen and just be like, dude, don't bring all that shit.

Don't bring all that shit. But then I get up here, I bought a mini food processor. I bought Tupperware. I bought all this shit so I could just have a kitchen that worked so I could feel like I was doing the things I need to do to growl myself and to feel like I had some control over my life and I was at home. At what point do you just let go and realize it's all going to be okay if you need to buy something or whatever if you need to do something when you're out there. But stay open.

Don't just close down and surround yourself. Like I need all these things to make me comfortable so I don't have to fully engage with the new thing. I don't know. Am I being too hard on myself or not hard enough? What am I? What, what is it? We've trusted simply safe for almost a decade now, not only as a reliable sponsor of this show,

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Hi Mark, hope your day's going well. I'm a big fan of your podcast and acting. I saw you twice in Toronto at Just For Laughs and you were awesome. I'm hoping you have some Eastern Canada tour dates, specifically Ottawa. Okay, well we'll see Wendy, but here's this reason for my emails. One of your chairs is squeaky.

I listened to your podcast driving to and from work. And for the longest time, I thought there was something wrong with my car. Then I realized it was your chair. I'm pretty sure it's yours because in the Chris Robinson opening, I could hear it. I'm sorry if I've added to your list of things to do, you don't have to fix it and hopefully it doesn't rent space in your head for free now. I just wanted to let you know in case you want to do a PSA for your listeners that it's not their car. I won't keep you if you even see this but just wanted to let you know. Thank you for making me laugh and smile. You're the best." From Wendy. Okay, yeah it's not your car and it's not the chair. It is actually the mic boom and I will get on that.

I'll get some WD 40 cause I know like I've gotten to the, it's, it's a fucked up thing is that the bike, the mic boom on my side of the, of the table in my garage kind of floats. So like it doesn't stay in one place and I just don't fix it. I mean, I've wedged a book in it so it doesn't float away from me while I'm talking and a lot of times I'll hold it like I hold the stand-up mic and I'll move it and I think there's a little squeak in that boom joint I

Will WD 40 the boom joint Wendy and again, it's not your car so as I said before Lupita Nyong'o is a very incredible person and I think you'll enjoy this conversation. Her new podcast, Mind Your Own, launches on September 19th and her new animated film, The Wild Robot, is in theaters September 27th. My birthday. This is me talking to Lupita. September 27th, my birthday.

This is me talking to Lupita. Hey folks, let your imagination soar by visiting audible.ca. Audible has the best selection of audio books without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive audible originals, all in one easy app, whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, basically any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being. Enjoy Audible anytime while you're doing other things.

Household chores, exercising, on the road, commuting, you name it. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine without needing to set aside extra time. You might want to check out some audiobooks by our recent guests like I Curse You With Joy by Tiffany Hannes or Sonic Life by Thurston Moore. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day A audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca Do you live here? I do, yeah. How long? I moved here last year. From where? From New York. Yeah? Yeah. And how do you like? From New York. Yeah? Yeah.

And how do you, you like it? Somewhat. Yeah. Yes. I like my neighborhood, but I still haven't figured LA out. It's kind of- It's like, it's, there's nothing to figure out.

It's just this sprawling thing and not unlike any other town, you find the four places you go to. Right. And you go to them. Yeah. And I mean, so yeah, it's hard to like figure out what my community structure is, you know? And you think about that.

Huh? You think about that. I do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because you need people. Kind of, but that's not really an LA thing. Oh, God.

Yeah. So it's kind of isolating. Yeah. If you need people, you got to drive to go get to the people. Yeah. Where do you live in New York? I lived in Brooklyn, Port Green. So, but New York's so different because you just walk out

and you feel like you're part of a community. That's what I'm saying. You know, you don't have to, in New York, you can hit someone up on the same day and meet up. In an hour? Yes. Yeah, just get on the train. Yeah, and in LA, that is absolutely impossible.

You can make plans two weeks in advance and they still may not pan out. Yeah, and in LA that is absolutely impossible. You can make plans two weeks in advance and they still may not pan out. Yeah, it's crazy. And then you gotta drive that factors into it. Where do we gotta go? I'm not going to the West Side. It's crazy. I never go to the West Side.

I feel like I'd have to pack a bag. That's what I felt like coming here, to tell you the truth. See, it's funny. So you're not really that used to it, and everything feels like a journey. Yeah, but I don't mind the journey, because I grew up in Nairobi, in the suburbs of Nairobi, so even going to school in the morning, it would take about an hour and a half to two hours to get to school and get back home. On public transport? No, on the school bus. Oh, oh God. So I'm used to going the distance

to do the things that I need to do. Right. What I'm not used to is just like the flakiness of people. Of Angeleno. Yes. And that's sort of like people sticking to their area and being unwilling to move around.

I kind of like, because I'm a virgin to LA, I don't know the neighborhood, so I'll agree to things and then realize on the day that it's like three hours away. You're going to a whole another country almost. Yeah, yeah. Just come up to Ojai for dinner. Exactly. Oh my God.

An hour and a half on the school bus, why would it take so long? Well, because we lived far away from the school. In Kenya, we don't have like, you know, the zoning here, it seems like there's schools for every neighborhood or something like that. In Kenya, that wasn't the zoning system.

So my school was really far away. So I was like the first one picked up and therefore the last one. Exactly. I have no sense of Kenya. Well, how can I be of service? Well, it's just so weird because I've been working in Canada. Have you worked up there for movies and stuff? I haven't, but I've been there.

And I started to realize that the national ego of a country has a big influence on individual egos. Truly. And I had this realization like last week that the American ego is just a monster. There is this weird entitlement, this competitiveness, this idea of deserving things and winning. Right. And with a country that's a little more stable in terms of how it creates safety nets for people, they don't have that same thing.

And I'm up there and I'm thinking like, why does it feel a little boring? Because people aren't operating. You know. In a dog-eat-dog sort of energy. That's right. People aren't like game, like what's happening? And so like when you talk about like Nairobi

and you've lived here long enough, what do you feel the differences are? Well, we have a very like, hustle mentality. I think that would be fair to say in terms of like, a national, I guess identity. There's sort of like, resourcefulness and like, you gotta have your hands in a number of pots.

Yeah. But then there's also, it's quite community minded. Yeah. So there is a sense of like your problem is my problem. Oh yeah. If you're in my community. Yeah. So there's lots of like just this week,

unfortunately, I had a cousin who lost her sister-in-law quite tragically. And immediately it was everybody coming together to raise funds for the needs. And that's very, very common. That's sort of like, let's pool our resources. And you know your neighbors and your families around. Yeah, you do. And you grew up your whole your families around? And you know your neighbors, yeah. Yeah.

You do. You do. And you grew up your whole life there? Well, I was born in Mexico, and then I moved there shortly after I turned one. Oh, so. So my conscious memory is all Kenya. And then I moved back to Mexico when I was 16. Why Mexico?

Because my father was a politician. He was an activist, a political activist. And at the time- In Kenya. Yes. And we were under an autocratic regime and he was fighting for democracy. And then after some tragic events, including the disappearance of one of his brothers- Oh my God.

He went into self-exile in Mexico because nobody would look for a Kenyan in Mexico. Right. And they didn't. They didn't. No, they didn't. And he had a job and everything. Yes. He was a professor of political science at Colegio de Mexico.

So growing up in real autocracy, was it like that in your life? Yes, it was. When we went back, he continued his work for fighting for his multi-party political system. And so, yeah, I mean, my childhood, I remember being under house arrest and my father being detained without trial. Who was the leader? Daniel Arapamoy. And so... He was our leader for very long, over 20 years.

And how, like, in day-to-day life, because I think about this a lot because of the situation we're in here, I mean, I'm not alone in it, but there is a fear... When you think about the world, most... A lot of countries were run by autocrats. Yeah. And most of them. Like, the idea that this country survived with a relatively democratic system is peculiar. Yeah.

But do you feel signs, like here? Yes. Signs of autocracy? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel like in the last regime before the one we're in right now, it was scary, because it felt like he had been studying the autocrats. Totally.

And everything operates at the impulse of the leader. And what it really proved is that democracy is an illusion, really. It's like we have to all buy into it, kind of like the stock market. We have to agree that this is how things should work, but should anyone have an ulterior motive, it's so easy to work the system to whatever motives you have. Well, it's easy to corrupt the system, certainly. Like all these things that we assumed were protected were just kind of like understood.

Yeah. But also the way I've been thinking about it is that if people become intolerant or lack empathy and they believe that that's the way it should be because they believe that, like democracy, I don't know if it's a total illusion, but without tolerance, what do you do? Yeah, without cooperation. Right.

There cannot be democracy. We have to all wanna cooperate with the, you know. Yeah, and say like, all right, it didn't go our way, but the majority wanted this, so we learned to live with it. So it's scary to me because I don't know, I guess that's my broader question is like, you get to a certain point in your life and you think about like, okay, if that happens,

how will it affect my life? Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I think a lot of people here are just sort of like, no, no, no, I'll probably be all right. Well, let me tell you, coming from a country that was once run in quite the autocracy,

it can get very restricting and very scary. But like how? Well, like I said, my, my uncle was disappeared and he was never found. So you have no idea? No. Until today, we do not know what happened to my uncle. And was he an activist as well? No, he just was a spitting image of my father.

So we- Oh my god, so your dad's got to live with that. Yeah. And our theory is either that I think he may have been killed as a threat, you know, to your father. To your father, sure. That's the theory we've come up with. But can you, that's sort of like unknowing. Yeah.

You never know. Like, we'll never have closure over that, and a whole family is affected by that. But then also, when I was growing up, we weren't allowed to utter the president's name. We weren't allowed to fly our own flag. Those were treasonous acts. And... Rick Scalzi Utter the leader's name in derisive fashion, like say something negative.

Anjali Bhandari Yeah, yeah. So there was such a fear, so we wouldn't, we would not utter his name, except for in like civics class where you were learning about the civics of the country, the history of the country. And was that guided by the politics? Like was it total revisionism? For sure. Yes. And also, he really thwarted the voices of the intelligentsia of artists.

And so we have had a stunted artistic growth as a result. Because there was a number of decades there where our literature just did not grow, you know. We have some incredible people who permeated that, like Ngugiwetiong'o, who came to the US and has been able to flourish here. But we don't have, we're still trying to recover from that thwarted growth, that stifling of our crisis in the arts, yeah. Because it's important. Absolutely. Because it offers, I don't think people

give the arts enough credit in that way because everything here is gauged by numbers, right? So it's like how many likes, how many people watched it and all this stuff. But these voices who show a vulnerability or a different way of thinking about how we live, usually it's hard for them to get out just because how do they get out?

Here it's perfectly open, but still it's like, I never heard of that person. Yeah. And here, I mean, the freedom of speech is so mature that it's taken for granted. Yes. And so when you don't have it, you recognize how important it is to allow for growth and consciousness. And art is often the starting point of revolutions because people are getting out of their little bubble and gaining perspective through artists' expression. Yeah.

And I guess, and I don't know how many people are in Kenya, but was it a sense that, like, so I'm assuming that the president knew who your dad was. Yes, he did. Yeah, and that, you know, he had him in his sights. Absolutely. And with artists, is it micromanaged to that point where, you know, there's either people within the communities or within the military or whatever that is out there ratting people out saying like they're putting on a show

that is against the government and that kind of stuff. Oh, I'm sure of it. I can't speak with authority of that because I don't have any real examples. But I'm sure of it because we just didn't have all our art, a lot of it. There was lots of like, I remember growing up with like on TV, there would be

a music hour and it would be like praising the president. Right. You know, that sort of thing. So that was full control of the media. Yes. And yes. And what songs we were allowed to sing in school, we had to pledge allegiance to our country, to our president. So there's that sort of like brainwashing and just restrictions on how, what you're

able to express. So like when you were growing up, did you feel like you were in some sort of like a secret cell of people who were progressive thinkers and creative people? Was there a threat when you'd have people over, sort of like, you know, don't tell anybody we're hanging out and we're watching this? Well, yeah, because, I mean, my father, they would be meetings held at our home in secret.

But my parents, they didn't, I wasn't really allowed to inquire about what was going on because that was the way, keeping me ignorant was their way of keeping me safe. Sure. You know, so I could tell that things were going on, but also this is all I knew. Right.

So it was only when like my father disappeared, for example, and wasn't back for days, there was a time when he was taken for a month. What? Yeah. Detained. Detained, yes, and tortured. and wasn't back for days. There was a time when he was taken for a month. And- What? Detained. Detained, yes, and tortured. So, but you know, so for us, we were under house arrest.

I was escorted to my school bus by a cop, you know, that sort of thing. There was like this ominous presence and I had to participate in like destroying my father's papers and stuff like that. So I knew stuff was going on, but I wasn't given full information. Sure. Right? It was not safe for me to know. Right.

The less I know, the safer I was. And this is like until when did you leave? Well, I mean, the reason I left was not because of the political situation. My parents sent me to Mexico when I was 16 to learn Spanish. And then I went back to Kenya to finish my international baccalaureate, and then I moved to the U.S. in 2003. So actually, the multi-party system happened in 2002. Okay.

And you were how old? I was 19. So you grew, like, now you're, you know, whatever happened in your childhood, you're now processing it as an adult. Yeah. And you understand fully the fight that your father was involved in. Absolutely.

And it turned out to be a righteous fight that had a good resolution. Right, fair, yes, good enough, right? Yeah. He's still very much involved in politics now. Yeah. He's a governor and he's able to actually affect change. It's amazing that he didn't get disappeared.

Yeah, it's true. And I lived my life. I've lived my life. I continue to live my life in the fear of that because, you know, the one thing my father taught me is the value of speaking up even when it's uncomfortable. You know? Yeah. And even when it'll cost you a lot more than you will gain. Have you had that experience?

Yes, I have. I have. In which and how? I spoke up about my experience with Harvey Weinstein. Yeah, yeah. That wasn't easy to do at all. And that happened when you were in college, right? Yes, it did.

And he was what, scouting people? Oh, well, no, I don't know what he was scouting people. I happened to, I happened to meet him at a, what do you call it, a film festival. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know, he was not skulking around the school. Sure. So when you like, within the, when you were younger, within the regime that was the autocratic regime in Kenya, I mean, were you doing art? Yes, I always was. My father used to be an actor himself when he was in school. He was quite the thespian. So I grew up with him reciting Shakespeare to me. So I always had like an affinity for a performance from when I was little, like I was like five. My auntie from my mother's sister, she was an actress as well, so she would gather all my cousins and me and create these skits to entertain my family. So that's when it

started. But my father definitely was very, very supportive of it. And also just, he lived vicariously through me. Yeah, oh, that's good. That can go either way. I'm glad it was supportive. Yeah, no, it was. As opposed to jealous and weird. No, he's always been supportive.

But that's an amazing thing to have that point of view about the arts, because it already is happening here with the silencing of LGBTQ voices, of people who in public funding for the arts. But it happens within this system on a state level and sometimes on a national level. And it doesn't, most people here don't think it affects their lives. But those arts change everything.

The movement within the arts, and there are things that are like on, that you can find on television that I think are completely revolutionary. And then most of the time people like, I didn't see it, where's it on? So it's a very weird thing that the same thing can happen here just because of the capitalist

media environment. Right. That there's so many voices, you know, there's so much content. Right. That the important stuff doesn't like come out. It doesn't permeate. And change your point of view of things. And it can, your freedoms slip away slowly and subtly.

Yeah, and most people's lives are small so they don't think it affects them. Yeah. Until one day they have to do something. And all of a sudden, so when, so you're doing plays and stuff as a kid? Yeah, I was doing plays. My, my, my mom was very good at like sussing out anything that was going on that involved a spotlight. So like debate, poetry, improvisation, you know. Just because she knew you liked it? Yeah, she knew.

So she knew there was an incident when I was really little. It was before I started kindergarten. She tells this story about how her best friend was over for tea and I was probably about three years old. And I came out into the living room and told her best friend a full blown story about my day at school. And I was not at school. I told her about what I learned, what I ate, who I played with.

And my mother said to her best friend, my daughter is either going to be a criminal or an actor. I'm glad you chose an actor. Yes. So, yeah, she knew that I was interested in performance, but there wasn't a lot of opportunities, right? Because the arts were quite restricted. So. What was, what were the restrictions? So what was what were the restrictions? Well, because creative voices were being thwarted, there was a lack of development in the arts, in the arts as an industry. In current voices?

Yes, in current voices. So you could do old plays, you could do Shakespeare. You could do British plays, but there was none. There was very few people actually writing plays and putting them up that were about what was going on in Kenya. Right. But were there secret runs and stuff? I don't know.

You don't know. I don't know. Because I was not aware of them. They were that secret. Right. I was not aware. Well, just the fact that there were secret meetings at your house. Yeah.

But I guess a secret play is a little more risky because you've got to get an audience. You've got to get an audience. And then they're implicated. Snitches and all of that. Yeah, yeah. So because of that, like, yeah, we didn't have a robust creative industry. Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, we had one theater that was, I want to say semi-professional theater.

Yeah. So I actually acted there. Yeah. And in school, I would get into plays whenever I could. And I had little roles here and there. So that was always the goal, was to act? Secretly. I mean, I also lived in a society

where acting was not a viable profession. So there was a lot of pressure, not from my parents, but from the larger society and community, my aunties, my uncles, to do something serious. Oh, right, sure. Yeah, secure. Yeah, something secure, you know, like being a doctor, a businesswoman, or a professor. Yeah, do you have siblings? I do.

And did they end up in, what kind of professions did they end up in? Well, none of us are politicians. Really? None of us are politicians, I think we're jaded. Yeah, well, I mean, if you can figure out a way to use your voice or your talents without directly making yourself a target of some kind, I imagine growing up the way you did, that would probably be preferable.

Yeah, yeah. Because politics just seemed like quite thankless. Yeah. But yes, I have a brother who's an actor as well. Oh, really? Uh-huh. Yeah. He just graduated from college acting school here and he's doing his thing. Yeah. My sister is a wonderful mother and my other sister is in wellness and another sister is

in coaching. Are they here? No. They're back there? Yeah. I have a brother here who's moving to Kenya shortly. Oh, he's going back. The actor?

He's going back, yeah. He's going to go back there to work? Yeah, he's going to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah back, yeah. He's gonna go back there to work? Yeah, he's gonna figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. Huh, what's the show business situation there now? Better than it was before, but still growing. One of the challenges we have is that we don't have

a lot of protections, legal protections of creative materials. Oh, in terms of getting paid properly in unions? Well, that too, but then also just like piracy is an issue and stuff, and that sort of stuff really does affect the growth of an industry. Did you work within the industry there ever? I actually did one show right before I came to the US to go to drama school. Yeah. Yeah, it was a show called Sugar.

How long was that on? Well, it was a show called Sugar. How long was that on? Well, it was three episodes. It was like a very sexy PSA on AIDS awareness. Oh, so that was the show? It was all about AIDS awareness? Uh-huh, it was. Yeah. That must have been exciting to at least be on camera and stuff. It was. It was my first real foray into that. And it was exciting because it was the first time that the youth of Kenya felt like their story was being told in a relevant way.

Oh, yeah. You know, it was quite daring. Kenya is quite conservative when it comes to, you know, talking about sex and stuff like that. And this show was very bold. Is that for religious reasons? Yes, most definitely. Which religion? We are majority Christian, but we also have a very big Muslim population and Hindu. Okay. So it's pretty, well, I don't know about the Hindus, but the

Muslim and Christians, they can be a bit repressive. Just a tiny bit. so they can be a bit repressive. Just a tiny bit. So when you go to Mexico as a teen, like why, because you're like a global citizen, so why Spanish? Why has your dad decided to Spanish? Well, because I was a Mexican.

Oh, you could go there. Yes, but I have, yes. So I have a Mexican passport and my parents were like, well, if you're gonna be Mexican, you might as have a Mexican passport. And my parents were like, well, if you're gonna be Mexican, you might as well speak the language. And my parents were very interested in exposing us to as much as possible.

So they wanted to kind of make good of having me in Mexico. And you were in Mexico City? No, that's where I was born, but I lived in a small town called Tasco in the state of Guerrero. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. And how was that?

It was tough. Ha ha ha. Really? For what reasons? Because I was 16 years old, so that's a highly impressionable age, but it's also like the age where you kind of like need a cohort, and I didn't have one. I was the youngest person in my language school,

so the person, the next person was like 23 years old. So I was like suddenly in an adult environment, kind of by myself. And was there racial tension? Yes. I mean, not in the same way. My experience of being black in Mexico was being a fascinating oddity. So I kind of felt like Venus hot and tot.

You know what I mean? Like people would stop and like look at me and I had braids so they would want to take pictures with me. I had that kind of experience which was kind of weird but also kind of affirming because I'd grown up in a colorist environment where unfortunately in Kenya, we kind of adhere to, at least back then or so than now, European standards of beauty. So the lighter you are, the more valued you are.

And I was quite dark. And there's tons of us you are, the more, the more valued you are. And I was quite dark. Yeah. And I'm, there's tons of us who are dark in Kenya. Yeah. Get it twisted, but still. So the colorism that I experienced had done a number on my self-esteem and my confidence. And then I went to Mexico and I was having the

extreme opposite experience where all of a sudden everybody wants to take pictures of me and they think I'm beautiful. Yeah. And I was like, what? What is happening? But that must've been good. It was good and it was also not great. A little weird.

Yeah, because I was kind of objectified as well. Sure. By men and it was, so it was weird and I didn't have the protections of my parents. I was really trying to forge my own way, figure it out and not speaking the language was tough in the beginning, you know, because you couldn't express simple things. Like I remember seeing a sunset that was so beautiful and I just like, I can't say it.

And so I kind of like held on to learning Spanish became a survival tactic. I guess that's probably the best way to learn. Yeah, it was. And after a month of being there, I actually made a pact with myself that I wouldn't utter another word of English to anybody so that I could really, really learn the language. And it worked?

It paid off. Yeah, it did. Do you speak regularly? Now I'm losing it because I don't speak regularly. And I don't have people in my life that I can speak to on a regular basis. Well, you're in LA, so you might be able to get a little more use out of it. I can, but sometimes when you see me, the Mexicans don't think I speak Spanish.

So sometimes it can come across as me insulting their ability to speak English. So it's... Is that a projection or you know that to be true? I mean, I know because when I speak in Spanish, they respond in English. Oh, okay. That will tell me, sis, leave us alone, we speak English. Yeah, we're not part of your experiment.

Exactly. Your practice. Your practice from Duolingo. Yeah. So that, well, that's good that whatever you experienced in Mexico wasn't hostile You know because I don't know and the racism in in Kenya is sounds different Yeah, it's it's it's it's internal colorism is it is a Discrimination within a racial community right? Okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah

Yeah, and it's still insidious. It is the cousin of racism. community, right? In between a modest racial community. And it's still insidious, it is the cousin of racism. So it's insidious and it's harmful. It seems like colorism happens here too, within the black community. Like I saw a comic the other night, that's she's very funny and very raw, but she's a black lesbian comic

and she was talking about Kamala, you know, and there's part of her that thinks like, I'm not gonna listen to some light skin. And I don't like, I don't live in that reality with that perspective, but I'd never heard it before. And it's a real thing. Yeah, and it's a real thing in more than just the black community,

the Latinx community experiences it, Asian communities experience it. It's a, yeah, it's a vestige of white supremacy. Right, but it's interesting that the dominant object of adoration is whiter skin. Right, because it is akin to whiteness. And people who are that believe that as well. Well, yeah, but also the thing about colorism

is that its origins have been forgotten. So it just becomes almost like cultural and oftentimes people don't know that they're being colorist, right? That's why it's so insidious because you have been conditioned to value this thing and you don't remember where it came from anymore.

Where did it come from? Colonization? Yeah, colonization, for sure. And the idea that, in America where there was a lot of delineating between lighter skinned enslaved people and darker skinned enslaved people. The light of skinned people were the ones in the houses and had more privileges than the darker ones. Yeah.

Those kinds of things. Racism that has come along with colonialism and slavery and all of that has affected how we see ourselves. Right. Of course. And the issue is that now the people who created that system are no longer participating

in it because they did such a great job that we can participate in it without their knowledge, without their... It becomes internalized. Yes, it's totally internalized. Well, yeah, because in Mexico, there is that sort of lighter skin, like the indigenous versus the Spanish. Correct. Yeah.

Also colonialism. Exactly. Correct. Yeah. Also colonialism. Exactly. Yeah. And that's a, that is a conversation that I was not knowledgeable about because when you grow up in the States, it's all about slavery. Right. And colonialism is all everywhere else in terms of what comes out of Europe. Right?

So it's a different mindset around how the racism works. Mm-hmm. And yet it's the same. Yeah. Ultimately, it's the same. Ultimately, it's the same. The ingredients may look different, but it's the same. But it's people coming in as opposed to people being taken. Oh, yes. Yes. But they're still able, because they're the ones setting the rules, they're still able to very much affect on a large scale how the majority see themselves as inferior.

Right. So when you go back to Kenya, how do you decide where to go to college? Well, another thing that we experience a lot in Kenya is brain drain, where the educated class often leaves. The expectation is that you leave to go to college. So it was always expected I would leave and go somewhere. But the idea is that hopefully you come back. Yes. Hopefully you come back. But yeah, it's too bad that we all felt like we didn't have what we needed in the country itself. So I always knew I would go somewhere and my dad went to school here. He went to the University of Chicago. So he had history in America and he also had colleagues he had

worked with in Mexico in America. He went there for government? Yeah, he studied economics and political science. That was a big program at one time, the University of Chicago. I think that there was a generation of economic thinkers that came out of there that were problematic, but it was a good school. So he was sort of like, you got to go to the States. Why not go?

Well, no. It was just, because of his history in America, we had connections with professors who could recommend schools and that sort of thing. And I have family here as well. And because of my interest in acting, my hidden interest in acting, it felt like a good idea to apply to schools here. I applied to schools in the UK and Australia as well, but I ended up coming here. Where'd you go?

I went to Hampshire College to start. Hampshire and Amherst? Yes. Oh my God. Yes. That's sort of like, you know, decide your own major and kind of hang out. Yes. No GPAs, no exams. That's one of those hippie schools.

Very hippie. There's like two of them. There's Reed in Hampshire, Reed's in Oregon, and then there's Hampshire. But it was right there in the middle of all those other colleges, like Mount Holyoke and Amherst is there. And Smith.

Yeah. And UMass, yep, the five college consortium. Yeah, it's pretty out there. Yes, it's beautiful. So you went to Hampshire. I went to Hampshire of all places, yeah. That's crazy, but it must've out there. Yes, it's beautiful. So you went to Hampshire. I went to Hampshire, of all places, yeah. That's crazy, but it must have been kind of amazing because in terms of personal expression,

I mean, it was all about that, wasn't it? Yes, I had a very conflicted experience at Hampshire on the one hand, because I come from real rigid structure. Discipline. And discipline in school, in Kenya. And so I kind of learned how to do things by a book. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. And be told by professors.

Exactly, told this is, yes. And when I, but like I guess I was kind of made for Hampshire because I remember in high school questioning my teacher. I had written an answer to an exam question and it wasn't exactly what he wanted me to say. And I said, but I questioned his reasoning and he said, the pizza high school is where you just do what you're told. You can ask questions in college when you're grown up Yeah, yeah, so anyway, uh, so at Hampshire all you did was ask questions Yeah, and so it was unnerving for me because I needed a way to measure how I was doing

Yeah, and I didn't get that and I had to kind of like self-generate Motivation oh, that's interesting all that and so had to kind of like self-generate motivation. Oh, that's interesting. All that. And so it was really scary for me, but I think it's really what has really set me up for who I've become because I had to really learn how to be resourceful and motivate myself. And confident. And confident, yeah. I mean, like that's all.

And daring. Right. That's all of it. Like if you're putting yourself out there and no one's going like, good job, work on this. All you're left with is like, you have to get past it. Like, was I terrible? You have to self-evaluate. You have to set your own goals, reach them,

and then analyze how you did. You have to really, really depend on yourself. Yeah, and how was the training there? Well, it was interesting. I mean, you know, I graduated and I had a 78-minute documentary that I'd created out of my final thesis project. But I also graduated with a woman whose final thesis project was an exhibit of trash.

So, yeah, now. So So it's like, whoa, it was very hard to gauge what I'd actually gained in school. But I guess I made a lot. After four years, someone just makes some shoes or something. Right, right. And we both get the same degree. So it was like, okay, let's see what I can do

in the real world. That's going to be the test of whether I learned anything or not. Right. But you're sort of innate discipline and you're, you know, your persistence, at least you expected more out of yourself than trash. Oh, yes, I did. I required more of myself. Yeah, you weren't trying to get away with something. Absolutely not. No, I have always valued my education. I love learning.

I love it. And that's why I think I'm an actor because I am constantly learning. Well, yeah, because you're always introduced with new ideas and if you have good material, you can really go places you would never have gone before. What was the documentary about? It was about the experience of having albinism in Kenya. It was called In My Jeans. What?

I had a neighbor who had albinism, and I didn't understand her, and I was kind of secretly kind of maybe afraid of her, but knew better than to show that I was afraid of her. But you're fascinated. But no, what happened was she started an albinism society of Kenya. And my mother went to the first meeting. My mother is a very curious person as well.

And in the meeting, they were talking about the discrimination that they have being people with albinism in Kenya. They're considered bad omens. Sometimes there's a myth that to sleep with a person with albinism can cure AIDS, and they are considered to be products of affairs with white people. And they were talking about the discrimination of having this, you know, lack of pigment.

And what I realized when I went back home from and was looking for a project to work on for my final thesis is that we, me being dark skinned and them being light skinned, we were kind of experiencing similar discriminations in our own country and with our own people. And so I thought, and I was also so embarrassed about how little I knew about my neighbor. So I thought maybe this is a great way for me to learn and teach other people as I go along. So I went about making the documentary. How did it come out? Good? It came out good. Yeah, it came out really good. It got into some festivals around the

world and it really helped the Albanian Society of Kenya, the Albanian community at the time, they were included in our next census so that we could know where they were in the country so that they could get the services they need. And there's a lot of them? Yeah, I mean, we have a significant number. That's interesting. Yeah. Because I don't see many here with that.

Well, it depends on what gene pool you're working from. So the smaller the community, the higher the chances that the gene will prevail. So because we still have quite regional communities, you will find more people with albinism in some than others. And what about the idea of the bad omen situation or the cure for AIDS thing, like how much does, I'm assuming, tribal mysticism still exist within the Christianity? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Those two things, they dance together all the time. That must be kind of fascinating.

Yeah. Well, it makes for a unique life experience. Yeah. But within your family, was that your experience in that there was holdovers from a different type of cultural belief system? Yes. I mean, yeah. Christianity did quite the number on our cultural identities, but we have never lost them. Right. Yeah. we have never lost them. So, yes, we still have indigenous knowledge and practices and we participate in them. We have very contradicting, we hold very contradicting beliefs as well.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess everybody does, but not with the support of a more ancient community of ideas. A lot of people behave a certain way within Christianity, but it's not the practice of, I guess it's in, I'm just an American Jew. So it doesn't, I don't, that identity is, it doesn't work the same way. It's more distant for you yeah yeah yeah but because those the the the concussion of colonialism is so recent sure yeah it was so sudden yes

it's hard for the indigenous to just fall away completely and if anything we have there's a lot of tension because we live in both in a dichotomy of consciousness. Matthew 5.30 So, but the Christianity came, see, it's hard for me with belief systems because I don't, my brain doesn't quite work that way. But I imagine it was some sort of reign of terror that landed that stuff. Correct. Correct.

Yeah. Yeah. So, after Hampshire, you start acting or you? Well, I went back to Kenya. After Hampshire, I spent about a year in New York doing administrative work and hating it. And I just had a crisis of like, okay, what do I want to do with my life? I was on a visa, so that ran out and I decided to go back home to figure it out.

And while I was there, my mom challenged me to sit with myself and ask myself some really hard questions. And in that process, I finally admitted to myself and out loud that I wanted to be an actor. And I told her and she said, I've known that since you were three. Three. And the next thing was to, I decided that if I wanted to be an actor, I wanted to learn my instrument as best I could. And so I applied to the top three drama schools in the US. Julliard, Yale, and...

Actually, I didn't apply to Julliard. Actually, that's what is one of the top three. Carnegie Mellon? Actually, I didn't apply to Juilliard. Actually, that's what is one of the top three. I applied to NYU, Yale, and UCSD. Oh, is that a big one? Yes, it is. No kidding. And you got into Yale? I got into all three and I went to Yale.

That's pretty good pedigree, right? Yeah, it doesn't hurt at all. But it was pretty competitive and rough? It was pretty competitive. It was competitive, but I just come from so far away, I didn't have time to think about the competition. I was just like, I'm going in there, I'm going to do my best and forget the rest. And luckily I got in and I got to choose which school I went to, which was such a humbling

experience because I didn't have the confidence. I didn't know what I had. Yeah. Yeah. Then I got into Yale and it was one of the best three years of my life, I think. Yeah? Yeah. Did you do a lot of different plays? I did.

I did a lot of different plays. I did a lot of Shakespeare. I did a lot of original plays from the playwrights who were there as well. Oh, that must have been exciting. Yeah. I did Chekhov. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

How are you with Shakespeare? Are you good? I'm good, yeah. I mean, I hope so. Well, you can see I'll be on stage next year, so. Really? Doing what? Yeah, I'm doing Shakespeare in the Park in New York. Wow, which one? Twelfth Night, my favorite.

Really? Yeah. That's fucking exciting. Yeah, yeah. I haven't been on stage for a long time. It'll be nine years next year, so. Since you've been on stage? Yeah. Since you got to memorize like that? Like, as opposed to like kind of scene for scene.

Right, exactly. Knowing that you'll get pretty, like at least a dozen shots at it. Yeah, I know, right. But you know, I'm hoping that I trained in theater and so that is where my, you know, like I'm hoping my DNA will remember. Sure, well it will, you know, my DNA will remember that.

Sure, well, it will, you know, it will out of necessity. Yes, exactly, survival. Yeah, and when did you start getting work? Well, I actually booked 12 years of slave before I graduated from Yale. No kidding. Yeah, in my third year as I was- So you had representation by the,

they came and found you or had that work? I did, I did. I had a manager. I didn't have an agent yet, but I had a manager. And she was the one who brought the audition to my attention. And yes, and I auditioned for it while I was in school. I did quite a few auditions. And I booked the job before I graduated. And that must have been, when you read that script, I mean, that must have been like,

oh my God. I was so terrified of that script because it was so deeply moving and I knew that he was just so powerful. I hadn't, since Roots, I hadn't seen a story this visceral about the slavery experience in America. And the people attached were so powerful and persuasive. I did have one fear though, being typecast. I was definitely afraid of that, coming out the gate, playing a slave, and then the thought that that might be all I play for the rest of my career.

It's interesting because that fear exists even with something that was as characterologically thorough as that script. You know, it wasn't like you weren't playing a prop or it didn't lack depth. No. But you were still nervous. Well, yeah, because in school, as we were preparing to leave,

we were meeting with industry professionals. And one of the things they would tell us is that the industry has no imagination. So there is the risk of being typecast. Like, whatever you're known to do, chances are, that's what they will come to you to do. So being able to, if possible, play a role in making sure to break people's expectations of you

as soon and as often as you can. And because that was my first, my first role, first of all, I didn't expect to get such a significant role to begin with. I was expecting to go and be on law and order for a number of episodes or something, you know, that's what they, that's what they had prepared us for. They had prepared us. Yeah, get ready for procedurals. Yeah, like we had been prepared to hear a whole lot of- Get ready for procedurals. Yeah, like we had been prepared to hear a whole lot more no's before yes.

Yeah. And I guess that was their way of like managing our expectations, cause you know, being an actor can be quite unforgiving. But that's interesting cause they're speaking in a general way, but you know, as a woman and as a black woman, then your pool is even smaller. Yes, and therefore, you do higher chances

of being typecast. So it was a real, I feel, like calculated fear on my part. Sure. And I just crossed my fingers and said, I look at the director who was involved in the caliber of work that we were doing. Hopefully, I wouldn't be typecast. But you know, guess what?

Once the movie was out, I got offered a whole lot of slave roles. You did? I did. I did. Wow. But the recognition you got as an actor was as high as you can really get to win an Oscar. For sure. But also, coming from what you came from, which was specifically colonialism, and then having to live in this other experience

of violent, horrible systemic racism, when you're thinking about putting that character together, did you have an experience with it that was surprising and awful? You know, I'm going to, hmm, I am eternally grateful for the opportunity to play Patsy, because what having that role did for me is that it personalized American history.

Right. It was no longer, I am, I was able to come here because of the gains of African people in America and their ability to resist and overcome that period of time. Yeah. And so me being able to walk in those shoes gave me such a humility that I just simply didn't have.

When you're from Africa, unfortunately, one of the ways in which colonialism is insidious is that we are not taught about other colonial experiences. Yeah. Right? When I was in school, I was learning about the, I was learning about Britain and I was learning about Kings and Queens there.

Right. Right. Right. And I was learning about Reagan and Truman and that sort of thing. And African-American history was a footnote. And so when I came to the U S my understanding of African America was very limited. And it was informed by mainly TV in which they're very, they were very stereotypical

portrayals of African Americans. And so to have a crash course on American history, this African American history in such a personal way, made it so that I learned it viscerally and I can never unlearn it. It's become a part of me in a way that I think perhaps makes me a more responsible immigrant. Right. Yeah. But also a fairly unique American experience. Right. So I guess

that's what you're saying in a way. That the education that came was, you know, deeply rooted in American history. And I don't know, do you have an American passport now as well? Let's say I'm gonna vote. Oh, good. Well, that's like, I can't even imagine. That movie was devastating. And there's parts of it, weird parts of it that I can't ever get out of my brain. Right, right. You and me both. You know, my dad came to the premiere, and afterwards he was silent. And I asked him, so what did you think? And he said, you know,

that movie made our fight for liberation look like a dinner party. Wow. Yeah. And that's facts. Yeah, right. it really does, it makes it so personal. Yeah. And visceral and three-dimensional. It's no longer what I'm so proud of that movie because it makes it not like, you're not learning about the past over yonder. Right.

You're learning about something that just feels so much more present. And the truth is that history is always present, you know? And we see it playing roles in today. And to think of it as historical and back there is how it ends up being possible again, you know, that kind of divisive way of living and structuring a society. Yeah, yeah. It was an amazing bit of work you did there,

and that movie is amazing. Thank you. And as you went through, so you were able to avoid the typecasting, it seems. Well, I worked very hard at that. And as I said, like I remember, one of the first roles I got offered after winning the Academy Award was like,

this is a movie set on a slave ship. So you're an African on on your way to America. Yeah. You know, and so I, it was hard cause like- You had to turn down stuff. I had to turn down stuff and I didn't yet have a resume that I could lean back on to say that, you know, lightning will strike in this pan again.

Yeah. You know, winning an Academy Award for my first feature film was the ultimate blessing and also kind of occurred because suddenly I'm at the pinnacle of my career, but I've just begun. And the feeling of like imposter syndrome and like, can I really do this? Am I really as good an actor as they've made me out to be? Right.

And will I ever have another role that is rich and meaty? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, was a real question. And the industry I knew was not designed for me. They weren't waiting for me. They weren't stacks of scripts that had been waiting for me. You know?

And so it was a real fear. And so when these roles came along, I really had to exercise a lot of faith in saying no and believing that something would come along that would give me a step in the right direction. And which one was it? Well, to begin with, I decided to do Star Wars.

There you go. And Star Wars has a big name. It has a lot of name recognition. But I got to play Maz Kanata. And I remember at the time, everybody was like, wait, what? She's not even gonna be herself in a movie? But for me, I needed that.

I needed to retreat for a moment. And like- To the future. I needed, yeah, yes, exactly. I needed to retreat and like, I guess maybe even hide. But also probably have a good time. Yeah, have a good time.

But really what attracted me to that role was that I didn't have to live in my own body. Yeah. And it had been such an incredibly, just roller coaster ride of the awards season where it wasn't just the movie, it was also fashion and my dark skin and my natural hair and people pontificating about what my future could look like in an industry that had

traditionally not embraced someone that looked like me and all these pundits kind of speaking about my future in a way that made me feel like a like a theory in a book. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I tried to made me feel like a theory in a book. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I tried to deafen my ears to all of it, but I still received it, you know? And I was going through so much change in my life

that I just needed a beat. I needed a moment to catch up with my new reality. I remember, like, I'd been taking subways and all of a sudden I couldn't. Like all of a sudden I was being chased by paparazzi at the airport. It was like night and day and I just didn't know how to navigate this new world.

So Star Wars is a chance for me to still work and to work with great people but not be myself. Like really just not be myself. Like take a breather almost. Just a breather. Yeah. And I did that. And it was, I remember people saying, you need to strike while the iron is hot.

You have to go and get that lead role and da, da, da. But Emma Thompson sat me down and said, you do what your spirit leads you to do. If you need to do a play, go and do a play. Because you have to be the driver of your own life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you do what people tell you to do, you're going to lose yourself. And the industry will always be there. And so, very unpopularly, I went from Star Wars to doing a play on Broadway.

Which one was that? It was Eclipsed by play on Broadway. Which one was that? It was Eclipsed by Danai Gurira. How was that? Great? It was wonderful. It saved me. It really did because it was a chance for me to go back to what I really knew. And on stage, you are in charge. You are in charge of your whole character's arc. Yes, you work with a director and your cast and all that.

But when that play opens, you work with a director and your cast and all that, but when that play opens, you get to be, you are the one with the agency to tell the story. And I needed that. I needed to remind myself that I had what it takes and that it was what I had that got me to that position of being able to perform and win an Academy Award. That I did have the talent,

and that the accolades didn't make me a good actor, that I had the instrument to do the work. And so it really, I gained a lot of confidence that I- And also self-awareness. And self-awareness, in self-awareness. Yeah. In this new context of being a celebrity. Right.

It was really great to go back to that. Oh, that's good. And the cast was amazing. It was a real collaborative experience. And yeah, I felt powerful on stage in a way that I had been dwarfed by my own achievements. Yeah, and if you hadn't done that, you could have just kind of lost touch with yourself. I could have lost touch with myself and I could have started to seek validation from outside of me.

Because awards and red carpets, those are ego trips. Yeah. You know, that's where people are saying, oh my God, we love you, we adore you, we worship you, all that sort of stuff. And it's so easy to get seduced by that. Oh yeah, I bet. And for that to be your source of value.

Right. And the truth is you're not going to get that all the time. No. You're just not. It could all go away very quickly. Very quickly. And I really just didn't want to be victim to that. Yeah. And then like, but how was it like to do, I just was thinking in my brain just now

that like the almost the spectrum opposite of 12 Years a Slave is the Black Panther movies. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's almost like, you know, in a perfect world. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm, if this hadn't happened. Right. Yes, yes.

And I loved that about Black Panther. Oh, I bet. Because it's aspirational. Yeah. It was, you know, as an African, I live with the tension of having lost, having fundamentally lost a part of myself through colonialism and the valuing of culture

that isn't of my own. And I can't get it back. I cannot, I can try, but I cannot get it back because so much of it was deliberately erased and beaten out of us. And so that, I often think about what would we have been if we hadn't had to switch gears to appreciate capitalism and- And Christianity. to appreciate capitalism and Christianity and this urban development and modernity as it is prescribed by a Western world.

And Black Panther was a chance to live that dream, live that thought. It must have been such an amazing set to be on. It really, really was. It was hard work. Yeah. There was a lot of fear, of course, because the studio was taking a chance. Doing this all-black superhero movie. Yeah.

There was definitely fear, we felt. And then even for us, just being like, we've gotta get this right, you know? We cannot fail because all too often we hear the lie, that black material doesn't sell. That a black experience is not a global experience. And we had to prove it wrong. And so there was a feeling of ownership and determination on that set there was just a, like, there was a feeling of ownership and determination

on that set that was just, ugh! It was like, ugh! That's great. And I imagine like the community vibe was like intense. Oh man, yeah. It was vibes on vibes on vibes, community vibes. And it permeated not just the main cast, even the extras.

I remember when we were filming and the waterfall, the coronation of the king, and we were on this cliff. And all of us had to be tethered to the cliff so that we wouldn't fall off. But it was like, so it was a sea of people that were in for a few days and there were drummers that were drumming and we were all just vibing to the drums between takes.

And at one point we all started singing Snoop Doggy Dogs, Drop It Like It's Hot. Yeah. And it was just so, oh, it was so thrilling. Yeah. And I looked around and I was like, man, these people have left their lives to be here, to be extras, they're gonna be this tiny

when the film comes out. Yeah. They probably won't even be seen. Right. But to see the joy they had in wearing the African garb and learning the traditions of Wakanda and chanting along, it felt so electrifying. Oh, it's beautiful.

Yeah. And it was hugely popular. And then the loss of Chadwick was devastating. Yep. And I mean, how did that affect that community of that group when it happened? Were you all in touch? You know, we had, yeah, we were, and I mean, we have been in touch over the years. Yeah.

We were definitely in touch. Yeah. Like, the main cast, we were in touch. But it wasn't like we were in touch on a regular basis. Right, sure, of course. Yeah. It was like, I know you're like I know you're there if I need you I got you right sort of thing But it seems like one of those movies were unlike a lot of movies. It was more than just a job No, it was definitely more than just a job and we have definitely like we there is that kindred spirit Yeah, we will always have yeah

Yeah, yeah So yeah, there's that feeling of alumni, right? Yeah. Chadwick died in 2020 when nobody was seeing nobody. We were all at home. It was very isolating. And it was truly devastating. And he hadn't told any of us what was going on.

So obviously, he had been changing, obviously we, we, he, he was, had been changing and we had noted that. Yeah. You know, we saw him and we noted it, but like, we didn't know what was going on. And I, for one, I wanted to respect his privacy. He was a very private guy. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, he would tell you what he wanted to tell you. He wouldn't tell you the rest. And so I knew, but I didn't know, I definitely didn't know he was on his way out. And so the news came to me just like it did to everybody else. I had no heads up. And I was lost. So that grief is brutal.

It is. And yeah. Yeah, sorry. It's amazing how easily You can feel it again. Oh, I know I know it's it is one of the It is part of the human experience. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you Let's talk about the children's book. Wow. What a pivot.

To ease the situation. Because I've had some grief in my life too and I know because of the nature of it that if we don't pivot, there's going to be a weird way to trail off. A couple of people crying. I know, right? Yeah. Makes for great listeners. Well, before, I just thought the children's book

was an interesting departure, but we can talk about us as well, because I love that movie. Yeah, I'm happy to talk about it all. Yeah, I know. But, like, because I know Jordan, you know, and I know that, again, the experience in terms of, I would think a black experience was as profound in a way

to be, you know, part of a cast that was doing something that was, it's a very artful movie. You know, it's great. I think it's a great transition from Black Panther to us because while we were making Black Panther, Get Out came out. And I went to watch it on opening night. I watched it with a producer friend of mine and I was so blown away that I went back to set. We were working with Daniel Kaluuya, obviously. I went back to set and I evangelized about Get Out. I got the cast together and we went back to the cinema

and watched it together. And then we headed to a bar and spoke about it for like four hours. We were blown away. And then I watched it four more times in the theater. I was so blown away by that movie and how much it was about, right? While still being just straight up fucked. A horror movie, yeah. blown away by that movie and how much it was about, right?

While still being just straight up fun. A horror movie, yeah. And yes, a horror movie, straight up fun. If you didn't wanna go deep, you didn't have to. You could still enjoy yourself. But if you did wanna go deep, you could really get into it. Yeah, yeah. And so I was just like, wow, wouldn't it be great

to work with Jordan Peele. And then cut to Jordan is reaching out, wants to have lunch with me. I was just like, wow, wouldn't it be great to work with Jordan Peele. And then cut to Jordan is reaching out, wants to have lunch with me and talk to me. And I remember when I met with him, he said, I have a project, I don't know, but I'll keep you, I'll let you know. And then months later I got the script and the offer to play this role. And I was just like, I get to be in Jordan Peele's sophomore movie and I get to play two roles? Yeah.

What? Christmas is early. Yeah. And yeah, so it was a dream come true rather quickly. Yeah. And it was such a, it was a great acting workout. Yeah. I mean, it was like, it must've been challenging in a way that was different. Oof, yeah.

Because it really is, yeah, those movies, you know, and I'm not a huge horror guy, but my girlfriend is into it, so I watch more now. You can really do some art. Yes, yes. It is such an imaginative genre. And it's playful, it's larger than life. So you can really go places. And it gets deep. It really does get deep. I'm not a horror person either, to be honest. But I do love scaring people.

So that was my motivation for doing it. Now you're recognized on the street for scaring people. Yes, and I love it. So this Quiet Place movie, like I've seen coming attractions. I feel like I haven't seen the other one, so I don't know really what it's about. But it looks menacing and exhausting. No.

To do as an actor. Yeah. Like, just the trailer, I'm watching, I'm like, oh my god. Wow. exhausting to do as an actor. Like, just the trailer, I'm watching, I'm like, oh my God, right from the out of the gate, you're just like terrified all the time. Well, you sussed that out sooner than I did, because when I read the script,

I loved the script and I wanted to do it, and then I got on set and I was like, yo, this is gonna be tiring. Yeah, I can't imagine. Yeah, yeah. I had amnesia for some reason. I remember making us and just thinking, it is really an impossible thing to ask someone

to be scared all day. Yeah. It's really hard to hold that tension all day. Yeah, I can't imagine. And then I forgot and went and signed up to do another horror movie and do the same thing and this time underweight. Oh my God.

Oh yeah, but it came out good? It did, it did. I'm very, very proud of it. It was a lot of fun to make, very, very taxing for sure. But I grew a lot. I fell in love with cats making the movie. Yeah, what was this problem with cats you had? I had had a fear of cats my whole life. What was in love with cats making the movie. Yeah, what was this problem with cats you had?

I had had a fear of cats my whole life. What was that? People are weird about cats. Some people really- I was very weird about cats. Like in what way? So it came from when I was really little. I was learning how to walk. We lived and we had these steps

and I would scoot my butt down the steps and we had this black hat that would come and scratch me and I would tumble down the steps. And it seemed to happen every day. It probably happened like maybe three times or something. Yeah, but when you're a kid. But when you're a kid, it's forever.

So I developed a real fear of cats and then I had a girlfriend who had 13 cats. That's crazy. And they would just terrify me all the time. And so I just did it and a lot of people have superstitious beliefs about cats and they think they're bad omens and they're just like bad spirits. And I kind of had those beliefs myself. So I just couldn't be around them. But then I fell in love with the script and I really wanted to play Samira and she owned a cat. I tried to get the director

to change the animal. He wouldn't do it. And so I was like, okay, this is the opportunity for me to face my fear. And I did. Pete And was there a person that they hired to do that? Anna Correct. They did. I went through exposure therapy. Yeah, they brought some cats over to me. Pete Is that on camera? You should have made that into a short documentary. Anna No, I didn't. Thank goodness there is no evidence of that.

Pete Evidence of that? Yeah. Okay, so now tell me about this children's book, because that seems like a very personal, like I'm curious about children's books. Yeah. So, like, so how does that work? Because it is kind of a memoir in a way. It is, it is. It's a magical memoir. Yeah. What's it called? It's called Sulwe.

Yeah. It means star in my mother tongue. Uh-huh. Yeah. And what's it called? It's called Sulwe. It means star in my mother tongue. Uh-huh. Yeah. And what is it about? It's about a little girl who is uncomfortable in her own skin. She's born the color of midnight and she has a sister that's the color of midday.

Yeah. And it's really about colorism. Yeah, right. Colorism we've been talking about. And she doesn't like her skin and goes through a magical journey in the night to find self-worth and self-love. Now, when you set out to do that story, you wrote the story? I did.

And then you look for, did you know who you wanted to animate it? Well, I found the illustrator on Instagram. Oh, wow. Yeah. She had, and I was looking for an illustrator who's managing of light I liked, because it is about Garo Skouro. Yeah, yeah. And I really liked how she drew light. Yeah.

Yeah, and so. And so it worked out. Yeah. Yeah, and so. And so it worked out. Yeah. And it actually happened. How did it do out there? It did really well. We made it to number one on the New York Times.

Oh, that's great. Bestseller list for a number of weeks there. Yeah. And it's well loved and I feel really, I feel so proud of that. Well, the beautiful thing about children's books, unlike a lot of books, is that they last forever. Yeah. If they're in the, what's the word I want,

the, is it Pantheon or the? Zeitgeist or, oh no. No, just like, if it is a book that children read for generations. Yes, yes, it can become canonic, I suppose. The canon, that's it, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's great. Yeah. Well, it was great talking to you.

Oh, thank you. That was a great conversation. I'm glad we did it. Yeah, thank you. Did we cover, oh, there was something else? Oh, the podcast. Yeah. The podcast.

Yeah, let's do that. What is that? Oh, yeah. I have a podcast coming out. It's called Mind Your Own. Oh, interesting. And it's a storytelling podcast, all from the African perspective.

Really? Yes. So you're talking to other Africans? your own and a storytelling podcast all from the African perspective. Really? Yes. So you're talking to other Africans? Yes. So I had this idea for years and years because I've been homesick and I wanted to hear stories from the continent, the way I hear stories from podcasts like This American Life and Self- South Judgment. Yeah.

And so, yeah, I wanted to make a podcast where I could share a little bit of my own stories and also invite people to share theirs. So we have- Old stories or personal stories? Personal. Oh, interesting. For me, personal and for them, personal. Oh, right. Very personal stories about different ways of what it means to belong.

Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Well, good luck with that. Thank you. And have fun doing Shakespeare. Thank you very much. Wow. Big world, big life, big brain.

What a great conversation. Again, Lupita's podcast comes out September 19th. It's called Minds Your Own She's also in the new film The Wild Robot in theaters September 27. Hang out for a minute Okay gang if you want the next ask mark anything bonus episode Don't forget to sign up for the full Marin the new one drops tomorrow And I always get a lot of interesting questions like this one If asked to do so would you ever host an award show? You know I'm not great at that kind of stuff but you know usually it's pretty prompt or heavy and I might be able to make it my own but you know I generally think I'm not, I wouldn't give what people wanted.

You know I'm not really a song and dance man. I'm not particularly everyone's idea of a good time. So, and it would cause me a tremendous amount of stress. I saw Patton do it once at the independent spirit awards and it was a horrible gig. And, but you know, he showed up for it and manned up for it. But you know, it's a specific job and you know, I don't need it. To subscribe to the full Marin so you can get bonus episodes twice a week go to

the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus and a reminder before we go this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's a classic Marin riff from the vault of riffs, the riff vault. So Boomer lives, Monkey and La Fonda. Cat Angels everywhere.