WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1579 - Connie Chung

Episode Date: October 3, 2024

Connie Chung’s consummate professionalism and journalistic rigor worked against her as she put together her new memoir. Her impulse is to report the facts, but her editors told her she needed to include other things this time, like feelings and emotion. But as Marc finds out, Connie was able to thoroughly explore not only her past, but her family, her husband Maury Povich, and the world-changing news stories she covered as a reporter and later co-anchor of the CBS Evening News. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Apply to Algoma University today. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm mark Maron This is my podcast Welcome to it. How's it going everybody? Okay? My heart goes out to the people in the Carolinas and you know, we got I got friends down there. I got a You know, I got a gig down there in February.

It's just awful to hear what's happened in Asheville and surrounding areas. It's just devastating. And in light of that, Brian Jones has created a new batch of black and gold cap mugs that he makes for me and my guests. And they go on sale starting tomorrow. And the only way you can get them is to be a guest on WTF or buy them from Brian Jones.

But for this batch, Brian is using a portion of the proceeds to donate to relief programs in North Carolina. The western part of the state was just devastated, devastated by Hurricane Helene. And there are a lot of people who work in ceramics there. I know some of them. I've traveled to Seagrove. I don't know what's happened in Seagrove. I don't know how the big cats are at the Carolina Tiger rescue. I don't know. But it just looks devastating. Um, he'll be donating to mountain projects. That's a local agency specializing in reaching the lower income and underserved

to people in that area. He's also donating to a surf CERF, the craft emergency relief fund. This is aid for artists to help, uh help get their studios back up and running, because that's their livelihood. So if you want, go get those cat mugs starting at noon Eastern tomorrow. That's October 4th at wtfmugs.co. You'll get a mug and you'll also help out. That's wtfmugs.co,

or you can look up Mountain Projects or SURF or whatever charitable institutions that you work with to try to help out down there. So heavy stuff, heavy environmental catastrophe. So heavy stuff heavy Environmental catastrophe But today I talked to Connie Chung Yeah, that it just came up. She got a book out. You want to talk to Connie Chung. Yeah, I mean I I'm always curious

to talk with broadcasters and journalists and interviewers. That's happening. You'll hear it. I will be at Largo tonight. That's Thursday, October 3rd here in Los Angeles. The rest of my tour dates are scheduled for next year. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour to see all of them.

But I do believe I have a date at dynasty typewriter actually also this month like one one other hour long show hour plus October 26 actually I'll be in the middle of shooting that movie but I figured okay it's a Saturday. Let's do it I had to go get a haircut and go do a wardrobe fitting for this movie. This movie is gonna be nuts. I Mean we're starting to shoot October 14th and he wants to do it in 20 days That's a lot and

I'm just been spending a lot of time trying to get into character or figure out where I'm coming from for this particular guy. He's kind of a self-centered guy. A little bit of an asshole. And, you know, he's got a few months to live. It's gonna be a stretch for me. It's really not, it's out of my wheelhouse.

But I accept the challenge to play a self-centered asshole. Folks, we've trusted Simply Safe for almost a decade now as a provider of home security that's never let us down. We want everyone listening to get the same peace of mind from SimpliSafe, and we want you to get it at half off. Right now, we've got an exclusive 50% discount at simplisafe.com slash WTF. 50% off a brand new SimpliSafe system,

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Once again, WTF listeners get a 50 percent discount on a new system plus a free indoor security camera with fast protect monitoring All you need to do is visit simply safe comm slash WTF to claim it But the offer is only for a limited time so be sure to do it today that simply safe comm slash WTF. There's no safe like simply safe right right Yes, so look good news for everybody although. I don't really hear it right now. I'm getting some new mic booms New mic booms for the studio. I think I've reached out to

To sure Sure that I've done nothing but celebrate the Shure SM7B, the microphones that we've used since day one. Industry standard, a lot of people get the cheaper podcast mics, but spend that extra money. Get yourself a Shure SM7B. They make another one with a built-in preamp. And I was looking at them and I was like, do I need this? I talked to Brendan.

He's like, well, you know, the ones we have are fine. They've always done us a done good by us, but I'm going to try to get these mic booms. ASAP. Yup. That wasn't even a paid plug. That just is what it is. Oh, busy, busy. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm glad to be alive mostly.

Yeah, I'm pretty healthy. I have a lot going on in my life that seems very busy. So sometimes I just, you know, I have to ask myself, why am I not thrilled? I mean, there's a lot going on in the world. A lot of bad stuff. But I just can't settle my mind about certain things that I should have let go of a long time ago. Why is that?

I have a feeling it's just part of my engine. And I'm not sure how the engine will run if I take out those parts. And I don't even know if I can at this point. It's crazy. I guess I'm just talking to help. Is that possible? Resentment, self-judgment, fear, insecurity. Those are actually like, that's like a menu of the three prime movers of almost any ism. Whatever your ism is. And look, I'm highly aware of all of them. They don't run my

life. Actually, most of them don't have too much real juice in my mind, but they're still reflexes. I have to deal with those things almost daily and in many ways, on many levels. They just gnaw at me as opposed to running my life, I think. I mean, is gnawing... I don't look at gnawing as as the same as as running it look. It's just weird But when you have issues that gnaw at you But don't consume you because you are aware of them every time they come up you have to engage with them and disarm them That is the daily battle. And when you are victorious, it feels pretty fucking good for a few minutes or a day or an hour.

And look, I guess I envy people that don't really have to fight that fight most of the time. But I think fighting it out, by doing that, I get some of my best thinking and inspiration done. Is that me committing to my mental illness? It's just, they're just fundamental parts of my thinking. And I think they're the roots of my empathy to some degree. Look, I guess what I'm saying is every day is full of exciting revelations when you take almost everything personally, when you project a lot, and when you imagine the worst outcome

of most situations. Every day, filled with surprises. But the truth is, look, they're all kind of tired. And the beautiful thing about getting older is you really start running out of fucks to give. Just from experience and wisdom, you're running out of fucks to give just from experience and wisdom. You're running out of fucks. The wisdom that comes from giving way too many fucks and realizing most of them are a total waste of fucks and a fucking waste of time, that's priceless wisdom. Hard-earned fucking lessons. It does seem that I'm missing out

on some of the fun parts of life, you know, the whole being alive experience. But look, to be honest with you, some room has been created from all the space that was being taken up by all the fucks I was giving. And I'm getting some real peace of mind, some real peace sometimes. Zero fucks equals peace of mind. As long as the fucks you are giving up are non-essential fucks.

It's important to keep the essential fucks in place. Principles. Some of those principles can be rooted in fear and resentment, but why judge that part of the principles can be rooted in fear and resentment, but why judge that part of the principles if they are solid? Most of the principles come out of some kind of empathy for the truly unique people of the world and the people in pain. I don't know. When your brain is spinning all the time just trying to find a place to land in the chaos of your life and the world.

And that's a problem to be solved like all of the time. You're at least 90% more interesting than well-grounded confident people. That's what I think right now, today. And I'll question it as soon as I finish saying this. Right? Right? Right? All right, you guys. Look, Connie Chung is here. What she was here.

Her new book, Connie, a Memoir, is now available wherever you get your books. And this is me getting off to a, you know, slightly rough start with Connie Chung. We're in the midst of a global mental health crisis and although awareness about mental health is growing, there are also significant public needs for care that are going unmet.

That's why CAMH, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health, is rising to the challenge. As someone who struggled with addiction, I know there's no way to get through it alone. CAMH is improving treatment and inspiring hope with life-saving research discoveries, building better mental health care for everyone to ensure no one is left behind.

Visit camh.ca slash WTF to hear stories of hope and recovery. Hey folks, let your imagination soar by visiting audible.ca. Audible has the best selection of audio books without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive audible originals all in one easy app. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, basically any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being. Enjoy Audible anytime while you're doing other things. Household

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["Audible"] Got a lot going on, Connie. You bet. What's the event tonight? You know, somebody, everything, all of these are in conversation. Yeah. And so. And how does that usually go for you? Fine.

I prefer to just speak. Yeah. Without being talked to. Well, just rather, cause I can control the flow. Yeah. And I know how to make a beginning, middle and end. Right.

Like as somebody who interviewed people, so when you have to do a moderated conversation, do you just generally take it wherever you're gonna take it or do you engage you know, engage? I engage, but because I used to interview politicians, I know how to not answer a specific question and go off in a direction that I want to go. Isn't that kind of amazing how they do that? No. But I mean, you actually, you learned the lesson from them.

There's definitely a way to do it. Just what you did, you just take the question, acknowledge it, and then somehow weave into something else. You got it. Yeah. And does anybody pursue the question? They're not probably chasing down information. No, I used to, but a lot of people are too,

a lot of people won't. Yeah, I didn't learn that until I, I think I interviewed Bill Clinton on the phone once and I realized that he wasn't having any kind of conversation with me. No. I was asking questions and it was almost, he didn't hear me. Are you recording?

Yeah. Oh, when did you start? Just a few minutes ago. Oh, really? Yeah. Tell me, you should have a few minutes ago. Oh really? Yeah. Tell me, you should have told me. Well, this is the trick of the trade.

You didn't say anything. No, I put you on right when I said, what are you doing tonight? And you said the conversation. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, nothing before that.

I didn't record you eating a sandwich. Oh, too bad. Wait, now that would have been inappropriate in your business to turn the mic on, right? No, I wouldn't have minded. As long as you don't mind my smacking my lips. I don't mind. It's humanizing, Connie.

Of course it is. I mean, I do eat and I'd go to the bathroom. Yeah, I'd heard that, but now I know. Both of them, actually. So you'd rather, when you speak, you just like to kind of lay it out, your whole story? Yeah. Not unlike the book? Correct.

And you wrote the whole book? I did write the whole book. Nobody helped? No, I had two editors. Yeah. And so I submitted what is commonly called by people who have written books, the so-called shitty first draft.

Yes, of course. And what surprised you about your first draft when an editor sent it back? The fact that I was told I was providing simply facts, and I said, yeah, that's what I've done, that's what I do. And I said, yeah, so. And the editor said,

you need to tell how you feel. Oh yeah. The feelings. Yeah. So I thought, no. Yeah. Had I known that, I never would have embarked on this adventure.

You just want to do some honest reporting about yourself? Yes. I saw nothing wrong with that. That's what I was doing. No humor, no color. No, no. It was gonna be a rollicking good time. It was gonna be a humorous book.

Did you, by the way, did you read it? I've read parts of it. Oh, you didn't read the whole thing? Well, I mean, if I read the whole thing, then I'm gonna lead you and I'm gonna expect you to tell. Like, I find that if somebody can talk and they're here to talk about a book, it's better if we can have discovery they're here to talk about a book, it's better if

we can have discovery as opposed to me knowing everything before. No. This is my process. Well, it's not the right process, Mark. What is the right process? I just had a woman in here earlier whose book I, a musician, and I kind of knew her and I read more than I should have because then all of a sudden there's stories that aren't told and some stories are told in a different

way. You know, when you write a story, it's different than when you tell a story. That's my belief. That's your belief? Yes. No, I'm accurate. Yeah. Well, I'm not saying you're not accurate, but in telling a story or having a human moment

or having an exchange, it's different than presenting it in words on the page. No, you got to do your homework, Mark. I did some homework. Yeah, but like what? You're going to question me about my homework, about like your childhood or about, you know, the stuff that really interested me because I'm 60 and my recollections of people that you were involved with like Walter Cronkite in the politics of the time are very young

memories for me. Those guys that you worked with like Roger Mudd and that whole crew, Walter Cronkite, and those guys were just these authoritative memories of mine that I don't really have a context in. So I was particularly interested in the feelings that you have about coming up with those men and also about politics at that time. Yeah.

Yeah. So when you showed up in Washington to do that work and your feelings about Walter Cronkite were what? Like I said in the book. Yeah. He, we, as a family, we used to always watch Walter. We would sit down, it was appointment television. How many people were in your family at that time? It was appointment television. How many people were in your family at that time? The same number that were always around.

I have had my mother, my father, and my four older sisters. And you would all sit there and watch Walter? It was appointment television. We made a point of sitting down and watching Uncle Walter because he was the quintessential authority on what happened that day. And because the ABC, NBC and CBS, the three big networks, controlled basically the news and information that people received because there was no cable, there was no social media, there were no other outlets. So we sat down and watched

Walter. Pete Slauson And your dad had lived in, I mean, he came out of, like I know that he came out of China and he was involved with the government of Chiang Kai-shek, yeah? Yeah. And that... And my mother too. Yeah.

They were born in 1909 and 1911, so they were born into pre-communist China. And were they there for the turn to communism or they got out earlier? They got out earlier. My father was in the diplomatic service. He was actually a spy, a spook working for Chiang Kai-shek. And he found all sorts of ingenious ways to get out of China. It was during the Sino-Japanese war and the Japanese troops were licking at their heels from

Suzhou to Nanjing to, do you remember the rape of Nanjing, Nanking? Yeah, I know. Yeah. Well, they got out just in the nick of time and they made their journey out of China and arrived in 1945. And when you, so your father, like,

in terms of coming to America, in terms of knowing the politics of China, I mean, what was the shift for him? I can't imagine, like did you have conversations while in conversations about what it was like to be a spy? No, he was very, he held everything close to the vest. He wrote what was the beginning of a memoir. And I came upon it because I've always kept it.

And he describes in great detail, which I use his information to describe their escape. They grew up very traditionally. My mother's feet were bound. My, they were engaged at 12 and 14, an arranged marriage, and then they were married at 17 and 19 and never saw each other until the day they were married. It's kind of crazy, isn't it?

I would think so. They did not have a love marriage. And what happens in China is that the women go live with the males of their husband's family, live under his roof for the rest of their lives. And so she, she endured an unpleasant existence, frankly. Yeah. And they had nine children in China, five of whom died as infants, and three of those five were

boys. That was not a good thing for a Chinese family because in China, boys are coveted and girls are considered worthless. So when they came to the United States in 1945, I was born in 1946. I'm 78. So what they experienced was not what Chinese people really want to experience.

They want a son. But my father kind of gave me a mission. He wrote me a letter, because he liked writing letters. And he basically said, maybe you can carry on the name Chung the way sons do. Yeah.

Carry on the family name. Right. Like Marin. Yeah. And I took that very seriously, being into filial piety. I took it seriously and thought, well, maybe I would be the son that my parents never had. Pete That's a lot of pressure, right?

Mary Well, I didn't do it consciously, but I was dutifully going about my business as if I were a son. Pete And because of – when you have parents that you say was at least initially a loveless marriage, in terms of the emotional tone of the household, what was that like? Well, they were both working very hard. My father worked two jobs to make enough money to raise five daughters. My mother, both of them lived in privileged circumstances in China. My father's father was a jeweler and my mother's father was the owner of a paper factory, which

was a very useful commodity. So they both grew up in the Shanghai area in smaller towns outside of Shanghai. And what they did was they had servants and cooks and maids and nannies and all of that. So they lived a very privileged life. When they came to the United States, that completely was altered. And my mother had to, you know, she had to cook and clean and it was a life that she had not been raised to do. Pete Slauson Oh my god, it sounds like she must have been a little miserable.

She was. Yeah. She was indeed. I could hear her when she was especially annoyed. She would chop very loudly with a cleaver. That's how you knew how to stay out of the kitchen? You got it. And I forever stayed out of the kitchen for numerous reasons, not the least

of which was being unable to recreate her meals. But I eventually thought better of it because her Chinese food is extraordinary. So I can now do that. You can? But, oh yeah. Yeah, that's good. What? Do you want me to come over some Sunday and cook Chinese food? Absolutely.

Not doing it. Don't even think about it. Oh, you're teasing me. All right. You bet. But you did learn eventually from her? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And it's a meal like you've never had in your life. I mean, going to, getting carry out on Sunday is nothing like it. Yeah. And getting Chinese food on Christmas day, nothing like that. No. I was in China briefly, but I did not,

I don't think I had great food, to be honest with you. It's different. Yeah. It just is. In China, you mean current China. Yeah, I was in- People's Republic of different. Yeah. It just is. In China. You mean current China. Yeah. People's Republic of China.

Yeah, I was in Beijing, yeah. And Shanghai. But I went to- How long ago was that? It was right around the time, you remember when that spy plane crashed there? So it must have been like, I don't know, maybe 2000, somewhere in there. And I'd gone there to do a couple of shows.

There was a guy who booked a couple of rooms for ex-patriots and one was in Beijing, one was in Shanghai. And I'd never experienced anything like it because it's almost like another planet. Yeah. It was mind-blowing to me. And I went to the Forbidden Palace, I went to the Great Wall, I tried to do some stuff, but I didn't

know much about the culture or the hutongs and that whole... You weren't doing your homework again, Mark. No, I was experiencing life, Connie. I was going out there and I was I was seeing the things I had time to see and learning as I went along I've done all right with it you know you know sometimes a little charm and curiosity will get you a long way. Sure, but you can do that and do homework. I did homework.

I did enough homework. Do you remember what Nixon said when he came to the Great Wall and visited China? I knew from reading your book. There you go. Yeah. That was one of the passages you did read. Yes, he said, this wall is a great,

it is a great wall or something like that. Yeah, it's a great wall. Well, I mean, what's interesting about that part of the book was that how it changed your seemingly your, your parents, or at least your father's relationship with China and his ability to, to at least see what was left of, I guess, his family. Yeah. They, uh, well, they could not, uh, get their citizenship and still write to the family in China.

And so they had to cut off all communication. And it wasn't until Nixon opened the doors of China that they were able to resume writing letters. And that's when they discovered that who was alive and who was dead. And they were killed? You know what? My parents actually never told me. I didn't put anything in the book because they didn't share that with my sisters and me.

But they knew? They do. They did know. And you didn't want to push it? Well, you know, when my parents didn't want to talk about things they didn't want to talk about. Yeah. And also, I don't know, they just wouldn't, didn't want to share certain information. And have you in your adult life ever explored that lineage?

I mean, it seems like it's possible now. Actually, I know. My father, I had gone back to China for both CVS and NBC, and I do know who is alive and who is dead, and I even interviewed someone who was a relative. For TV? Mm-hmm. Yeah?

Mm-hmm. And how did that go for you? It was, you know, everything in the People's Republic is controlled. Yeah. So I don't know that that person, this cousin, was talking freely. Sure. So it was not a seminal moment for me because I don't think they were able to really share

information. That's scary. Yes. It is. There is. Because you knew you must have been on their radar. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Absolutely. So you were actually possibly endangering your cousin. Well, they hand-picked who I would speak with. Right. With whom I would speak. And that made them in control. Yeah.

And this cousin was clearly able to deliver properly. Yeah. He didn't get in trouble. So he towed the line and he's safe. You know, I'm not wearing my glasses. Who's the guy with the guitar? Chuck Berry. Oh my God.

Yeah. The best. Yeah, of course. The best. Yeah. And the Rolling Stones. guitar. Chuck Berry. Oh my God. Yeah. The best. Yeah, of course. The best. Yeah. And the Rolling Stones. And the Rolling Stones. And then I think I got, behind there,

I think there's a picture of Howling Wolf. Who? Howling Wolf. Howling Wolf. The blues man. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha, that's great.

Chuck Berry was amazing. Did you ever interview him? No. Yeah, that's great. Chuck Berry was amazing. Did you ever interview him? No. Yeah, he was something. He was, the best, really the best. So in this family where you've taken the mantle of being the son your father didn't have. Or my mother.

Or your mother. Mm-hmm, don't be piggy. But outside of thinking of yourself in that way, how did they adapt to the idea of America? What did they feel like needed to happen? Because when I talk to children of immigrants, there's a lot of- They weren't really, quote unquote, immigrants. They came over on official business.

So they didn't arrive at Ellis Island. They actually arrived in where you were born, in Jersey City. Jersey City, yeah. Yeah, so your father in his capacity of a spy, was there any inkling at that time that the communist takeover was coming? He had inside information,

and that's the intriguing part of his story. Since he had inside information, he could tell that the United States was quite torn as to whether or not they should support Chiang Kai-shek or Mao Zedong. And my father, because he worked in intelligence, was able to say to himself, I'm getting out of Dodge. You know, I'm not going to wait around for the US and for Chiang Kai-shek and Mao to

either come to some agreement. It was, I'm getting out. Yeah, life or death in a way. You bet. Yeah. You bet. It was a life or death situation. So that's how they got my father. But basically what he did was he was working in the passport

office. And what he decided he would do was to find a way to come to the United States on official business. a way to come to the United States on official business. He commissioned himself to be a captain, I believe, in the, I can't remember right now the exact rank, in the Chinese army, I mean Chinese Air Force, to train Chinese cadets how to fly. Right, that was what he said he was gonna do. Yes, but Mark, he didn't know how to fly. Of course.

So he became the administrator. And as it turned out, he came to the United States first because the ship that he was coming on refused to bring the family. So my mother had to stay in Bombay, which is now Mumbai and wait until she got a Western Union telegram and a American Express tickets for her and her and my four sisters.

She discovered that she was pregnant. She also discovered, now this woman who did not speak any other language but Chinese, had never been out of the country, let alone, on her own. But here she's got four little girls and she's staying in a hotel. There are other people who are gonna be repatriated out of China. I mean, who ended up in Bombay, Mumbai,

India. So she discovers that she's pregnant. With you? No. No. Number nine. Okay. And so she tells my sisters, I'm going to take the oldest sister with me, and number two, you take care of number three and number four.

And I'll be back. I don't know when I'll be back, but I'll be back. When she came back, she didn't have a baby anymore. And I've always asked my sister, what happened? Did she have a miscarriage or did she have an abortion? And I have this one, my second oldest sister, uh, finally gave me the information when I was writing the book. I said, you have to tell me.

And she had, she's like a, uh, a yenta. She can't say certain untoward words. Like, like she'd say, they're getting a divorce or he has cancer. So she said to me, we're sitting in the kitchen, just the two of us. And she said, she had an abortion. So here, my mother made this decision all around, we don't know how she arranged it, how she accomplished it, or what any of the circumstances were. But she came back and I forgot to tell you that the reason why she did it was because if she had a baby, my mother and my four older sisters could not board a ship because they

were not allowing anyone younger than two. Wow. So she did it to keep the family together and to make the journey. Yes, and to raise us in the United States. The weight of that stuff, and you're growing up in it, you're born in, I mean, you can't register any of this, probably some of these stories until you're now,

but you're growing up in the weight of that, those choices, your parents. DS Extraordinary. And I can guarantee you that there are a million of those stories. And where are your parents originally from? CB My parents are all from here. My grandmother on my mother's side was born in Poland. They're all Jews and they all got out before Hitler. My dad's side of the

family came from Belarus and there was Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, but they all came up here. There was nobody that made it under the wire or lost in the Holocaust. Oh, that's so fortunate. Yeah. Ashkenazi. Yes, full Ashkenazi. I did the 23andMe. I was hoping for a little Viking, but no, I got 99.9% Ashkenazi.

Are your parents still with us? Yes, yes. My dad's about halfway with us, but my mom's kind of fully with us for the most part. Women are like that, aren't they? Yeah. Physically, she's not doing great, but mentally she's okay. Well, that's good. Yeah, sure.

That's great. So, but getting back to the original question, so you weren't brought up with that kind of Need to to put a specific type of ambition that meant success in America That a lot of first-generation people have well, I grew up very very Chinese but very Americanized. Yes. In other words, as much as we were listening to, you may remember, because you're 60, you

may remember like Frank Sinatra and Doris Day. Yeah. But we also went to see Chinese opera. Yeah. We ate Chinese food that my mother cooked at home, but we also had a neighbor who taught my oldest sister how to make roast beef, lemon meringue pie, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, hot dogs, you know, spaghetti. And this was in the DC area? Yes. Yes. So you had Chinese opera, you had culture that would play to, you know, to your family. Absolutely. And so my parents instilled in me and all of the sisters this very Chinese tradition.

And we were proud of being Chinese at the same time, we were proud of how Americanized we were becoming. Yeah. And- So only Chinese spoken in the house mostly? Yep, uh-huh, yeah. So you had to learn English from the ground up? I actually, because I was born in the United States,

I learned English and Chinese simultaneously. And how's your Chinese now, good? A little dicey. Yeah. You know, there's nobody I can practice with. Yeah, but you can understand. Definitely. Yeah.

But I can't read and write it because I never went to school for it. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I went to school, it was all English. How did you choose a career path? Was it always going to be journalism? No, no. I didn't know really what I wanted to do. I actually majored in biology and then switched to the business administration.

Yeah. And I tried accounting and I just couldn't figure out what to do. But then I worked one summer for a congressman on Capitol Hill as an intern. He was from New York. He was a former newspaper man. He got me interested in writing. And I had to write press releases. But what I really eyeballed was what the reporters were doing. And since I grew up in Washington, grew up on the Washington Post and the Evening Star and Walter Cronkite. My father was a news junkie. So we, and a history buff and a political buff.

So I grew up on that and realized that when I was on the Hill as an intern, that the pulse beat of government was right there. And it was exciting to you. Very. Yeah. And you understood the whole, the way the government worked. Yes. And that was engaging.

There was no doubt that every reporter should cover Capitol Hill because they have these arcane rules and just simple things like the Roberts Rules of Order and how bills are passed and what the process is. If reporters don't cover Capitol Hill, they don't really have a sense of how the government ticks. And I found that to be an incredible experience, really good experience. Like, I imagine to learn government in that way, as opposed from a textbook, and to see it in action,

and to see the process and how sometimes, how long it can take, maybe even years to get something through. You know, it must have been, there's no shortage of stuff to learn, that's for sure. It was intoxicating. Yeah, and you're dealing with these politicians every day. Oh my God, yes.

But it's interesting because at that time, because I can't imagine how somebody like you looks at what's happening now in relation to American government. I mean, I'm assuming that there was no way for you to predict what's happening now. Oh, good heavens no. Journalists are not prognosticators. predict what's happening now. Oh, good heavens no. And that, you know, what...

Journalists are not prognosticators. Well, I know, but I mean, just even to spend that much time in Washington and to believe in the norms that kept it together and that there are at least, I would imagine, a few people that believed in service and in the nature of government, that the way that has been turned inside out has got to be, you be, I don't know if it's terrifying, but you must be cynical. Oh my goodness, yes. I mean, it's criminal, it's downright wrong.

Well, right, but I mean, but like there was like this evolution of, the first Trump administration. I mean, you were there when Nixon went down. So, and to look at why he went down and how it all transpired, you could never even see that happening in government today. There would be no success in taking down a president anymore. I'd like to believe there it's still possible.

Yeah. Because I have to imagine that when you were there and Watergate was happening, that it was the most like earth shattering thing to ever happen. Best story ever covered. Right. And so, but leading up to that, you do talk about being around these men and being given opportunity and you do pay some gratitude to Lyndon Johnson's legislation that enabled you and several other women to get these jobs. And who were those other women?

At CBS. Well, let me roll back to the tape a little bit. My sister-in-law whose name is Lynn Povich was working for Newsweek in the late 60s and early 70s and she Women at Newsweek were only hired as researchers. Yeah, they could never be hired as writers reporters editors nothing But researchers right they were pigeonholed nothing but researchers. They were pigeonholed.

So they met in the ladies' room, the only place where they could get some privacy. And they decided that they would file a class action lawsuit. And because the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission was formed, and they won. That signaled to other corporations that... This was happening. Yes. And fair warning, the consciousness of all these corporations had already escalated because the women's movement and black movement were making a lot of noise. Yeah. So CBS News, which was the Tiffany network,

the creme de la creme, the Washington bureau chief, a man named Bill Small, decided that he was going to take preemptive action. And what he did was he hired four women in one fell swoop. One was black, Michelle Clark, me, Chinese, Leslie Stahl, a nice Jewish girl with blonde hair, and Sylvia Chase, a shiksa with blonde hair. So, boom, every permutation and combination. And it-

Covered himself. Yep. And he, but he also believed in us, particularly Leslie and me. Michelle worked in the Chicago Bureau, and Sylvia worked in the New York Bureau, so He he pushed us yeah, and he gave us opportunities So he was a what were your first jobs is writing copy doing reporting reporting. Yeah. Uh-huh

I was a reporter and Back in those days we covered the hill, the State Department, the White House, the Pentagon, all the, all the general assignment reporters. So you're just running around. Yep. Running up and down those marble staircases and chasing after stories. Yeah. stories and very often keeping the seat warm for a male who is having lunch or whatever. It's just like taking notes and waiting. Or attending the White House briefing or the State Department briefing or the Pentagon

briefing and then filling in the Bigfoot as we called it. The reporter, the male reporter that would just come in and go, what are we doing? Mm-hmm, or like what happened. Yeah. Or who got up late and didn't make it or whatever. So they would show up and say, tell me what's going on. Did anger, were you angry?

Only when I thought I should have done the story. And it happened to Leslie too. Leslie- Early on, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because we were the kids. Yeah.

And so we did what we were supposed to do. Just the two of you. In a world of men. Everybody in the newsroom was a male. Actually, there was one woman named Mariah McLaughlin and she did mostly radio. And then Leslie and me. And as I looked around,

usually my competitors were also white men. Yeah. And always the people I was interviewing on the Hill and at the White House. You can well imagine 1970s, it was predominantly men. Yeah. And white men. Yeah. And, but at that time, you know, hold on.

Not that there's anything wrong with being a white male. Thank God, because I've been one my whole life. Hold on a minute, I'm gonna just shut that bathroom door. Because I get a little echo sometimes and it annoys me. Okay. You can't really hear it, but I hear it. But you're pretty diplomatic in the book about the nature of those environments

in terms of what in current day would be, you know, either toxic or dubious. Oh, it was toxic and dubious. Yeah. Yeah. But your choices were different then. I mean, you know, if you were to stand up in a different way or to make issue, you would just be out of a job.

I don't know. Yeah. But I was very, I acquiesced because I knew I was new and green and needed to just not say no, no matter how repulsive the assignment was. But it's interesting, in my mind, the people that you were dealing with are mythic. You know, you dealt with Paley, the head of CBS. You were the founder. Yeah, I mean, and he was the one of the inventors of television. Yes. And these are like now, like you don't hear their names very often. And at the time you were coming up, it was still pretty close to the source of this business evolving and becoming what it is. I mean, did they exude a power? Were they impressive people?

Well, you know, when I've covered presidents and world leaders and heads of companies, when you see them up close, you can see they have pimples and blemishes. Sure, they're people, yeah. I interviewed Obama in my old garage. I know that. How did you get him to schlepp to Glenville? He went to Highland Park. It's even smaller. It's even Hollywood Park? No, Highland Park. Oh, Highland Park. Yeah, I know Highland Park.

Sure. Yeah, he came over there. How the he- I don't know how it happened, but- Do you book your own interviews? Sure. My producer booked it. They had reached out. It was his last, you know, the last year of his second term. And- You didn't reach out to me. Well, we- somebody did reach out to you. You were you had the book, and then we were told that you were talking about yourself in the book, and my producer said, do you want to talk to Connie Chung?

I said, yes, but I don't want her to yell at me or tell me I don't do my job properly. Am I doing that? No, just a little. Yeah. But it's going well. I'm just giving you a little You know stuff, but but I know you know, I like it I I did realize that when I talked to Obama because I was not I'm dubious of politicians As anybody should be so like my sense of him like I people become human to me very quickly

You know right when they sit down and he was very You know candid and seemingly, you know open people become human to me very quickly, right when they sit down, and he was very candid and seemingly open. And I'd like to believe he's really like that, but I don't know. Yeah, no, you never. Yeah, and I don't know what it must've been like for you to be talking, to be dealing with Nixon, Rockefeller,

all those senators, Kennedy, any of them, that because once we learn about the humanity or their humanness, it's usually because they've screwed up somehow. But I imagine in talking to them, you learned a way around it and you weren't necessarily looking for humanness, you were looking for information. Yes. So it was different. Correct.

So when did you realize that, you know, you were on the right path in terms of like, I'm going to like when you started to get camera time and you started to deliver the news as a broadcaster? Well, I was a broadcaster from the get-go when I was at CBS News. Yeah. I was on the first week I covered a story, the first Friday. Yeah? Mm-hmm. What story was it?

It was a story about an environmentally... Oh, the phosphate story. No, not phosphates. It was... Gosh, almighty. Unsafe, environmentally unsafe detergent kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Suddenly it's just left me.

It's all right. Thank you. No, seriously, because I left my memory on I-95. If you are driving on I-95 and you fry my memory, will you send it right back to me? Sure, sure. Thank you. That's all the way back on the East Coast, so you haven't had it for a while, huh? Yeah.

You left it on the I-10, I might be able to send somebody out to find it. The I-95 would be a long job. Right. Oh, I haven't driven on a 10 in so long. Right. Thank goodness. It's not the same. No, I know it's not the same. From when you were here in what, the 70s? It's a lot different.

Yeah. So yeah, it was about the EPA trying to push through a detergent chemical that was environmentally unsafe and- Something like that. Yeah, and you picked up something. Well, what happened was an underling actually contradicted his boss. And that was- Oh, right. That's right.

That's not cool. And that's where... Oh, right. That's right. Yeah. That's not cool. And that's where you got on Cronkite's radar. For the first time. Yeah. And that must have been just amazing. Oh, a thrill.

A thrill. And you say he was a sweet man. He was. Yeah. He was... I discovered that many men in the news business who became anchorman developed a disease called big shotitis. Yeah.

And it's characterized by being unable to stop talking, engaging in self-aggrandizing behavior, unrelenting hubris, and my favorite delusions of sexual prowess. Walter was none of those things. He was kind, he was nice, he was grounded, he was a good journalist, and he didn't take himself terribly seriously. He was grounded. He was a good journalist, and he didn't take himself Terribly seriously and he knew the job was communication and reporting. Yeah news. Yes I think it's very interesting because I would imagine a lot of the the men that you worked with who were on the news for Decades for my entire life. We're not geniuses

No, and they were not television, but they weren't intellectuals even no they were just delivering the news Yes, and I imagine so many of them got pretty far away from doing actual reporting at a certain point Absolutely, and they were using people like you to supply the information for them. Yep Yeah, must that would have driven me crazy. Hmm. Yeah But but you know somehow or another, I think you say that you got a pretty tough skin and you were preemptive in terms of these men diminishing you or minimizing you or saying things about you. Yeah, but you know, I was young and didn't really think about it. I was just driven.

Right. Okay, there you go. So when do you get your first big break? You mean when I was at CBS? Those early days in the 70s? I think it's when the bureau chief, Bill Small, the man who hired me, assigned me to cover Senator George McGovern, who was the presidential candidate in 1972 running against President Nixon went for his re-election. I remember that.

My mom took me to a rally in New Mexico where we grew up to see McGovern. Really? She was a big McGovern person. And you also lived in Alaska? A couple years. My dad was in the Air Force. How old And you also lived in Alaska. A couple years. Oh, wow. My dad was in the Air Force. How old were you? I was like six, seven.

Oh, so do you remember it at all? Sure, I remember some of it. I remember the skies. I remember a couple of people, but I don't remember, you know, they're very, they're childhood memories. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how old were you when your mother took you to the McGovern?

Well, it would have been the 72, leading up to the 72 election, right? So it would have been like right when we got to New Mexico, probably 71. But I just remember she was... And that means how old were you? Well, I was like, well, 63, so I was like nine, eight. Oh, so you do remember that. I do, I do remember, like I remember reading Mad Magazine.

I remember some of the election, I remember I remember reading Mad Magazine. I remember, you know, some of the election, I remember her being excited about him. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, but unfortunately, I mean, he lost big. Yeah. It was a landslide. Yeah.

And, but covering a presidential campaign was wonderful. Yeah. It was very exhilarating. Because there's so many levels you have to operate on. You're right. Do you think that maybe I was there in New Mexico? I may be very well if I- Yeah, probably.

You were following him. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you were just a little tight. Yeah, you were on the bus? Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you were. The boys on the bus.

Yeah. But you didn't have a mustache and a beard. No, you wouldn't recognize me. I don't think so, yeah. I was probably just wondering what I was doing there, and my mother was excited. Did you have glasses? Did you wear glasses at night? Not yet.

Not until I was like 14. Okay, there you go. Yeah. Okay, let me ask you something. Is that turquoise, the ring? Was that from New Mexico? Yeah. Yeah?

These are all New Mexican rings. These two turquoise ones are New Mexican. No kidding. He's wearing three rings. Yeah, this one's WTF. This was made by a fan. This one's a Zuni ring from New Mexico. I think this one might be a Navajo ring

that I bought recently. I go back, my dad's still there, so I go back. Yeah, and I wanted to have a reminder. Where did you get the title for your podcast? You know, it was sort of a working title that just became the title. We didn't know what the show would be initially, and then it just stuck.

So it was just out there. WTF is in the world. It seems to be a pretty good thing to ask. But Dan Rather also gave you a big shot, It seems to be a pretty good thing to ask. But Dan Rather also gave you a big shot, even despite the fact that you had problems with him later. Danielle Pletka He gave me a big shot? Dave Shepard Well, you do that story in that moment where

you showed up with a story that you were supposed to feed him, and he said, you do it. Danielle Pletka You read that. Dave Shepard I did. Danielle Pletka Good. Let me give you a golf clap. Thank you very much. I appreciate it, Connie. But I mean, but it's sort of, it must have been a very difficult kind of dynamic to have

with these men who you needed to give you opportunity. No, it was not incumbent upon another correspondent to give me opportunities. Right. But they could be either a little more generous than some of them were. Yeah. Or they could be... Monsters? Yeah.

You actually typed out some questions. Not really. Oh. Just information. Oh, okay. I don't out some questions. Not really. Oh. Just information. Oh, okay. I don't work with questions. Yeah. I work with the hope of engagement.

Mm-hmm. So when you came out to LA, you saw that as a possible, maybe a demotion? No. You know, I was offered the job, the general manager of the LA station. CBS. Uh-huh. Yeah. It was a CBS, what we called an owned and operated station.

And this is when you were doing the CBS morning show, right? I was substituting on the CBS morning program, but I was still a general assignment reporter. But whenever I substituted on the CBS morning program, I felt like I was in the witness protection program because nobody watched the CBS morning program. Yeah, they were all watching the Today Show.

Exactly. Like my mother. Yeah. Because it was a broad-based news magazine entertainment show. Well, it became your traditional morning chat show in which people drank their coffee and they watched Barbara Walters. And she was the one that attracted viewers.

Did you know her? Oh yes, oh yes, I knew her very well. Yeah. Although, when you know Barbara Walters very well, there's still a cone around her Oh, yeah, well, you know a lot of people You You know a number of people you probably personality. Uh-huh. Yeah, you can't really get close close close. Yeah

so Barbara we We want let's see we were talking about the morning program and do you remember where we were? Yeah, taking the job in LA. Oh, thank you. See, I was doing my job. Listening.

Well, you're listening, yes. And that is key to a good interview. Good job. I give you... Another golf clap? I can't wait. Okay. No, you get more. Okay? Ready? Yeah. Oh, bigger clap. Good.

That's very good, because that's what you should do. Always. Yes. Listen to what the person is saying, and then go with a follow-up. Right. Excellent. Can I give you a fist bump too? Sure. Thank you.

Oh, watch that ring. Yeah. And so... So you took the gig. I did, you know why? Because you didn't want to be stuck on a show no one was watching. But also because I was living in a home.

Oh yeah, right. Oh my God, how old were you, late 20s? 29. But you felt like you had to. You were responsible for your family. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. But you're tired of it.

Well, it's just that I needed some separation. Yes. Because here I was a rough-tough reporter. Yeah. You know, elbowing my way through news conferences and everything. And then I toddled on home to Mommy and Daddy's home. Yeah. It didn't work.

No. I mean, I had to get out of Dodge. So, I left. But you were still able to support them. You were making more money. I was making more money. and that was the key. The salary increase was unfathomable to me. So I went off and thought, now I can feel my freedom. Yeah. Live in your own house? Hollywood? Apartment.

Yeah. Uh-huh. It seemed like a pretty nice apartment. It was. It was small, but it was nice. It was some... In an old classic building. ...mondo condo, yes.

Yeah. How... You read that part. Yeah, I did a little homework. Hey. Ha ha ha. I'm very proud. Thank you very much.

Mm-hmm. But, like, that's a... It was an exciting time to be in Hollywood. I mean, I imagine, uh... Were you a fun person, Connie? Always. Okay. Very proud. Thank you very much. But like that's a, it was an exciting time to be in Hollywood. I mean, I imagine, were you a fun person, Connie? Always. Okay. Always. Were you out in the world?

You're living right above Sunset Strip. You go into the comedy store. Are you doing stuff? You know, I knew what they were doing, but I wasn't doing what they were doing. Because you're focused on work. Exactly. Yeah.

And also I was such a, such a goody two shoes that I was not dabbling in anything, you know, that they were dabbling in. But if I may, did you know, Mark Maron, that I have a strain of weed named after me? No, I didn't know that. You did not know that. No, I've been sober a long time. I'm not up to date on the weeds. Okay. How'd that happen? I've been sober a long time, I'm not up to date on the weeds. Okay.

How'd that happen? I actually don't know. It's connie chung weed, and you can get it online. I am described as easy to grow. I have a nice fragrant smell. I create a beautiful flower. And my personal favorite description is that I am low maintenance. Now you know.

Is that true? Well, who knows? Don't ask my husband. I just saw online that you can get a pre-roll five pack for only $22. Is that good? I don't know, you haven't tried it? Well, you know, I don't do stuff. I mean, I did in college and-

Oh, it's different now. Yeah, exactly, it's much stronger, I think. And, um, unlike Bill Clinton in college, I did inhale. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Had some fun. Well, gotta laugh. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, but you know what else I found out just recently? Yeah. There's a drag queen named Connie Chuck. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, you should meet them and get some pictures. Yes. Have you seen them?

No. Oh. Well, you're a very famous person. Oh. Everybody knows Connie Chung. No. Yes. I don't think so.

So you had a good time in LA and you became better at being an anchor? I don't know. I mean, I still wanted to burnish my career as a, my reputation as a political reporter. Okay. So anytime a Clinton or, I mean, anytime a Carter or a Kennedy would come out to tap the deep pockets in Hollywood, I would interview them or request to interview them. So the ambition to be like a national news anchor was not within you?

It just evolved? No. It just evolved? No, I had a burning desire to climb the ladder. But I didn't know. I would take it one step at a time, honestly. Yeah. Covering national politics in Los Angeles can't be as engaging as being in DC or New York or anything else. So I'm assuming that you became more proficient at covering things that maybe didn't interest you as much, but getting some on-camera chops that would ultimately help you become a more broad anchor. I think that's an accurate assumption. And it was very much so. In fact, I covered, do you remember this group called Synanon?

Yes. You do? I do because I read the Art Pepper autobiography and there's a lot in there about Synanon, down Santa Monica. There was sort of like a, they sort of, the front was a drug rehabilitation, I think. Right? What about it? Did you read the whole book? Yeah, I did. I read Art Pepper's whole book.

I thought I was gonna learn about jazz, but it was about 350 pages about heroin in jail and about 50 pages about jazz. Are you a jazz enthusiast? Well, I try to get into it, but it's a pretty big world. But I do like it, yeah. Yeah, well, what in particular? In other words, the instrumentalists or the jazz singers?

I'm not a big jazz singer guy. I do like the more adventurous instrumentalists. But Synanon, so what about that? Well, I dug deep into Synanon and I interviewed the creator Charles Diederich. And then he started to get off the track. In what way? Well, he and his cohorts began doing some rather peculiar things. There was a lawyer who won a lawsuit on behalf of a former synodon devotee. And the lawyer found a rattlesnake in his mailbox. So, Diederich was threatening anyone who either filed a lawsuit or reported, um, uh,

unflattering information. Oh, wow. Mm-hmm. So, you brought this all to light. Yes. Um, but also, um, he, he, I did a few interviews with him. And so, uh... So that's exciting.

That got you out of politics into something… Carol Bingo. Pete Slauson Yeah. Doing some reporting about something equally sort of relevant and mysterious and impactful on a community level, on a cult level. Carol Bingo And it got me off the anchor desk because I think, you know, anchor people who do just come in, read the news, and go home are basically kind of lazy.

Well, but I imagine now that's not, that's probably commonplace. No, I don't know. You don't know. No, I'm not going there. Right, but I mean, being an anchor on some level in a lot of, you know, quote unquote news programs is just an entertainment job. Well, I don't think I can say that in a wholesale way. There are plenty who cut their teeth as reporters

and did before they arrived on the set. Yeah. So when do you meet Maury? I met Maury, actually. You know Maury? Nope, never met him. Okay, no. I might have met him once at a thing, yeah. And what was it, do you remember? I don't remember, it must have been in New York though.

I know Maury. Yeah, not unlike Connie Chung, Maury Povich is a household name. Did you live in it? He invented a thing, I think. Yes. The paternity of discovering the paternity of every child in America. And he coined the phrases, you are the father and you are not the father.

Are you saying this proudly or are you just giving me information. Well, I'm providing anyone out there who does not have Morrie memes with some information. Okay, good. But there you go. You knew him a long time before you guys got married or started with him. Oh yeah, we dated for seven long years and we lived in two different cities,

which was perfect. Have you ever been married? Pete Slauson Yeah. Mary O'Toole You have. Pete Slauson Yeah. Mary O'Toole Do you have? Pete Slauson You didn't do your homework? Mary O'Toole No. Pete Slauson You knew about Alaska, but you didn't know

I'd been married twice. Mary O'Toole Well, you know, I can't get to everything, but I'm not interviewing you. Pete Slauson I know. Mary O'Toole I mean, I did my part just to – Pete Slauson You Have social points to- No, just not to be completely in the dark. Oh, that's nice.

I appreciate that. Well, you know, and I, in other words, you're not just another interviewer. Why are you sighing? Nothing. It was not a real sigh. Okay. It is not, I think it's rude not to find out about the person who is interviewing, because you're not just another interviewer and someone else is not just another interviewer.

I feel that I should do my homework on you a little bit. I appreciate it. Yeah, I've been married twice, and the distance helped you because you were probably both busy, and you didn't want wanna lose yourself in the other person. Right? Well, no, it's just because you have your life and I have mine. You work, I work.

And then when we join each other, it's a rockin' good time. So I guess when did you get married? 1984. Oh, so he was with you through a big arc of what you went through. Mm-hmm. And very supportive, if I may add.

That's nice. Oh, yeah. He's been... We're still married. He must be a good guy. Oh, he is, if I may. Yeah. He's really a great guy.

He's been my foundation, my go-to. Look, anybody you convert to Judaism for? I didn't. Oh, you didn't? No. Well, that's bad information. Yeah. But don't ever go to Wikipedia, okay?

No, seriously. I know, I know, I know. You know better than that. I know. I know you know better than that. I really wanted you to have converted to Judaism. Well, you know, I was very busy. Yeah.

And my husband and his parents didn't... Didn't care. No, they cared, but they didn't require it of me. Oh, good. Well, that's good. Is he religious? Oh, sure. Yeah?

I mean, we do the high holidays. Do you do the high holidays? I see religious. Oh sure, we, I mean, we do the high holiday, do you do the high holidays? I used to, sometimes. Not always. I try to think somberly on Yom Kippur, but I generally eat. Yeah, you do. You never fast, or you used to fast.

I was born on Kol Nidra, so I think I get a pass. Oh, you were born on Kol Nidra? Yes. think I get a pass. Oh, you were born on Kol Nidra? Yes. That's very interesting. Isn't it? I guess it's possible. Mystical. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. All the Jews in the world were repenting and I was born. So I think I get a pass of some kind. What a profound effect. Kind of crazy, right? Yeah, it is. But we used to do Shabbat every Friday with our son. Okay.

Because we raised him in the Jewish tradition. And so... Did he stick with it? Pardon me? Did he stick with it? No. Okay. You tried.

Uh-huh. But no, but he considers himself to be Jewish. It's just very hard to keep up with tradition. Sure, of course. I mean, you fell away. Yeah, but I think I'm kind of dug in in some other way. Yeah, I do not do the ritual or the traditions. I was part of Mitzvah.

I was part of conservative Jewishvah, I was part of conservative Jewish. Yeah. Oh, you were. But because I don't have a family, I don't have children, I'm not around Jewish ritual that much, I don't have a synagogue. And at some point I decided, okay. If somebody asked me to go to temple with them

on the high holidays, I would. If someone invited me to a seder, I would go. I would go to a Shabbat dinner. I'm just not in the loop. And like you said before we went on the mics, I'm a bit of, I'm not a hermit, but I don't socialize regularly with a group of people, which I think is required to find yourself in those situations. And if you have children, then you know that becomes another reason. Mm-hmm. Understood. Yeah.

So when you got the gig to be the anchor of the national news. You mean co-anchoring on the CBS Evening News? Exactly. Was that, how did you feel about that? Dream job. Yeah. Absolute dream job, sitting in half of Walter Cronkite's chair. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. It was way too good. Yeah. I mean, I was just mighty proud. What happened with that? It tanked after two years. How did it tank? Who was the leading news?

Was it Brokaw? No, it was Peter Jennings. Oh, Jennings, right. Yeah, yeah. Who you knew from back in the day. Yes. Yes. And he was the quintessential anchorman as well. How does that affect you, the idea that it tanked?

I mean, how does that sit in your being? Do you feel responsible? Oh, no. I mean, I think the concept of a co-anchor on a half-hour broadcast is flawed because they're only, you know, with commercials. You have commercials. No. No, you don't. At the beginning, but not during the interview.

Oh, you do? Yeah. How long are they? Sometimes, I think they're, you know, sometimes they're 30-second pre-show spots, and I think there's some 90-second spots, you know, before the interview. But nothing during the interview will pop up. I see. Yeah.

And I do live reads and we kind of put them in later. You do what? Live read. Like I don't have just sort of like, hey, get a Toyota, you know, like I do all the ads. You do? Yes. And you don't have a problem with that?

With what? Doing the live reads? No, I'd rather do them than just drop stuff that doesn't have my voice on it into a show. But is it for a product? Sure, we decide. We have complete autonomy. Discretion? Sure.

You know, we vet things. We're not here, you know. We try to do the right thing. Not like medicine for old people. No, not that. Occasionally, maybe we've done one vitamin ad. But no medicine. Nothing too dubious. Okay, so anyway. Anyway, so after the news, like what happened with you and Dan? I know you talk about it a bit in the book, but it didn't seem good. No, it was not good.

It was bad. It was the end of the relationship. Yeah. It was kaput. It was over. Yeah, but did that, was that happening while you were on the air? What? The, the tension?

Uh, well, I think I could feel a lack of comfort. Yeah. Uh-huh. I mean, it was pretty darn obvious to me. Yeah. You know, it was a, uh, there was such chill in the. And it wasn't the air conditioning. I like this character. I like that when you talk about Dan Rather, you go into a whole different character.

So you don't have to experience the emotions as Connie Chung, the other German character. Is there something wrong with that? No, no, I like it. I didn't anticipate that. This is that surprise I'm talking about. I didn't know I'd be talking to a fully formed voice actor talking about Dan Rather. Well, I can do another one. Oh good. But of course. Yeah, yeah, sure. This is the one. Stiff upper lip one. Yeah, of course. I like how, sure. This is the one. Stiff upper lip one. Oh yeah, of course. I like how you chose English and German,

two aggressively non-emotional, other than one type of emotion characters. Yes, I went to the Millicent Busybody School of Journalism. Yeah. Did you know, Mark, that I have, I excelled in having a potty mouth? Did you? Yes.

When was that? When I went to the Millstone Busybody School of Journalism. It's just outside of London. You've never been there? You must go. So did you ever cuss at Dan Rather? Not really. No.

But behind his back I did. I was let loose with all sorts of untoward words. Yeah. And I imagine that tension lives on today. Well, you've got to forgive and forget. Oh. So you've done that. Not really. You know, my husband, Maury, was president of the New York chapter of the National Academy of Arts and Sciences. He was, the organization was providing a, giving another award, some kind of some such. And he said, you should present it to him. And I said, not a chance. So he said, no, you must.

Really? Yeah, I mean, my spouse is a wonderful, forgive and forget sort of person. Oh, so he really was trying to get you to do? Oh, which, you know, just because. Publicly it would be a good. No, no, it's because, you know, I think it was Nixon who said something about, it only

hurts you to hold a grudge of some sort. That was Nixon? I know. Isn't that extraordinary? So what I did was I did present him with the award. And afterwards, he picked me up off the ground and hugged me. All I could think of was, put me down.

My legs were dangling like Edith Ann. You remember Edith Ann, Lily Tomlin's character? Yes, yeah, right, off the rocking chair. Thank you. And then, if I may, I saw him again on a train from New York to Washington, and he said, let's talk. And I said, oh God. And we sat down at a table in an Amtrak train.

at a table in an Amtrak train. And he said, no hard feelings. And I said, okay. I was hoping for a go fuck yourself. No, I can't. No, not on WTF Mark with Mark Maron. So those were my close encounters of a dad and kind. That was it. Yes. Yeah. But you went on, you did the interview shows and you kept busy. Not so much. I rose from the dead with this book. This was, it's been a while. I think, was there, oh, you know, some people I worked with were involved with weekends with Maury and Commie.

Oh. Larson, Jonathan Larson. Yeah, you know Jonathan Larson? He was with me at Air America. That's where I started on radio, at Air America. Jonathan Larson was, was Winstead involved too? Yeah, Liz. Yeah. Uh. Yeah. Yeah, they were both. I've known Liz forever as a comic, like going all the way back to the 80s. Right. There you go.

How was that show? What happened with that one? It was awful. Was it okay working with your husband though? No. I mean, well, sort of, but I mean, he's a quick study and he can, you know, walk into a, any situation, just not only wax poetic, but just handle it easily. I have to study and study and study. I'm OCD, obsessively, compulsively prepare. That's why I keep getting on you for...

I understand. I understand. You're a control freak and you're afraid of chaos. Yes. Not afraid of chaos. I despise chaos. So... It's a tough road to Chaos is all around

Yes, but I don't have to be part of it. Okay, you know, yeah, I try to straighten everything out Good. In fact, I could really straighten out your desk. Oh, you don't have to know it's a mess I know it's there's only if these are very select items. I just cleaned it before you came they're all put in a place where it is organized in my own way. And they're random. They were from the old garage, which was much more cluttered and I just picked some random stuff

to remind me of where I started. Why do you need a hammer? I don't need it. An old hammer. It was just, that was a, it was from an event in my past. We found it and it was a funny moment. It was an event? Yeah, it was like, I don't remember exactly the hammer, but I remember the knife was left

in an apartment that I once lived in and it's sitting on an unpress record. And these things like these are from... But it's a scary old knife. I thought about that when I cleaned it. I did think about that. Yeah, I mean, it's a... Yeah. What do you call it? The kind that you pull... The switchblade? It's not a switchblade, no I mean, it's a, what do you call it, the kind that you pull?

The switchblade, it's not a switchblade, no. No, it just- But I find that if you have a few things on the desk, sometimes people pick things up and they need to- Well, only if they're bored. Well, I don't know if they're bored, but I think that some people are fidgety. Oh, geez, yes.

Yeah. So- People who have, do you know Spilkes? Yeah. Okay, yeah. I do know know Spilkes? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I do know some Spilkes. Yeah. I think I've misused Spilkes recently. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah, I've misused it. Spilkes is...

Ants in your pants. Yeah. Yeah. A little... What did you say? Well, I thought it meant, I was looking for the Yiddish word that meant pride. Pride? Yeah. But I don't think I found it. It's not Spilkes. It was another word that I didn't have in my Yiddish, you know, I didn't have it. Gossary. Yes, that's it. So, the book's a big

deal for you. It's a long time coming. Yeah. How long did it take you to write it? Ridiculous. How long did it take you to write it? Ridiculous. Practically a decade. Thank God you had the time. My husband kept saying to me, have you gotten your parents out of China yet? Because, you know, I couldn't get it going. And finally I decided I needed a deadline.

Yeah. And you got one? Yeah. Well, I will say this. I will say that the parts I read were very good and very informative, and they let me get to know you a little better. The parts I didn't read are for the public and for me to finish, but I do feel like I still, in light of our conversation, handled it the best way I can.

I don't think I would have got the German character. I don't think I would have got the English character. I don't think we would have been on the train with Dan Rather. I think there's a lot of things that wouldn't have happened had I done it differently. But I chose to give it to you. I know that.

But if I just led you down the line with a series of questions from the book, chapter to chapter, then yeah, I mean, are you gonna do the British character tonight at the event? Perhaps. No, you're not, you're not gonna do it. Yes, I am. What makes you think I'm not?

I just have a feeling, Connie. Oh, you do? Yeah, I have a feeling that you're gonna be with a moderator, you're gonna be fed up, and you're just gonna take over the conversation You know Why don't you come and see all right? Well, it's good talking to you Connie. Hey, thank you, Mark. Yes. Yes. Yeah, okay Okay. Yeah, would you?

What walk your bag out? No, I Carry my own bags and I have two under my eyes and I keep them with me and I don't even check. Okay. Check them. Well, what were you going to ask me? Huh? I don't remember now. Okay. Well, have fun on your book tour. Okay. Thank you.

Music Connie Chung's new book, Connie, a Memoir is out now. Hang out for a minute. Connie, a memoir is out now. Hang out for a minute. We're in the midst of a global mental health crisis and although awareness about mental health is growing, there are also significant public needs for care that are going unmet. That's why CAMH, the Center for Addiction to Mental Health, is rising to the challenge. As someone who struggled with addiction, I know there's no way to get through it alone.

CAMH is improving treatment and inspiring hope with life-saving research discoveries, building better mental health care for everyone to ensure no one is left behind. Visit camh.ca slash wtf to hear stories of hope and recovery. At Algoma University, your future has no limits. Here, you can go further, in the classroom, in the field, and well beyond. We provide personalized education, cultural fluency, and training for in-demand careers. We don't just prepare you for the future, we prepare you to change it. Plus, Algoma has the most affordable tuition in Ontario.

Make the most of your university experience. Go further. Apply to Algoma University today. Full Marin listeners, you know who you are. Right now you can hear something that was a watershed moment in the history of this show and my career. We posted my 2011 keynote address at the Just For Laughs Comedy Festival and believe me, that was something I never expected to do and it was more emotional than funny.

So I was broke, I was defeated, I was careerless and I started doing this podcast in that very garage where I was planting my own demise. And I'm not going to try to get shoved up with this because this thing has been an emotional thing for me. I started talking about myself on the mic with no one telling me what I could do or what I could say. I started reaching out to comics immediately. I needed help.

You know, I needed personal help, professional help. I needed to talk to people. So I reached out to my peers and I talked to them. I started feeling better about life, comedy, creativity, community. I mean, I was lost. You know, I started to understand who I was by talking about the comics and then sharing it with everybody else and I started to laugh at things again. I was excited to be alive. Holy fuck. Doing the podcast and listening to comments literally saved my life and I realized that that is what comedy can do for people. And you know what the industry had to do with that? Nothing! Nothing!

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