WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1580 - Sebastian Stan

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Sebastian Stan believes creativity is the best therapy. So even when he's playing an unappealing person, like Jeff Gillooly in I, Tonya or Donald Trump in the new film The Apprentice, Sebastian knows there's always something to learn about humanity through his performances. Sebastian talks with Marc about fleeing from his home country of Romania at a young age, learning from master filmmakers like Jonathan Demme, seeking out unique material like the film A Different Man, and finding out that his portrayal of Bucky Barnes in the Marvel franchise has helped people through tough times. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help, we see someone struggling with addiction. Our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help, or get help, at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the Government of Canada. This message comes from BetterHelp. Can you think of a time when you didn't feel like you could be yourself?

Like you were hiding behind a mask, at work, in social settings, around your family? BetterHelp online therapy is convenient, flexible, and can help you learn to be your authentic self, so you can stop hiding. Because masks should be for Halloween fun, not for your emotions. Tick off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com. At Algoma University, your future has no limits. Here, you can go further, in the classroom, in the field, and well beyond. We provide personalized education, cultural fluency, and training for in-demand careers. We don't just prepare you for the future, we prepare you to change it.

Plus, Algoma has the most affordable tuition in Ontario. Make the most of your university experience. Go further. Apply to Algoma has the most affordable tuition in Ontario. Make the most of your university experience. Go further. Apply to Algoma University today. Folks, having your own website is a great way to deliver for your fans or customers or whatever audience you're targeting. And Squarespace makes it even easier

with the Squarespace members areas so you can give premium access to your most devoted users. There's also the Squarespace members areas so you can give premium access to your most devoted users. There's also the Squarespace Video Studio and the Squarespace AI to help you with text descriptions and it's all powered by the new Squarespace blueprint design system. We've been using Squarespace to run WTFPod.com so go check that out if you want to see a website powered by Squarespace. Head to squarespace.com slash WTF for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

That's squarespace.com slash WTF. Alright? Good. Do it. Alright, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies?

What the fuck, Nick? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Today on the show, I talked to Sebastian Stan. Look, you guys know him from the Marvel movies. I don't really, he's Bucky Barnes.

But he's also been in films like Logan Lucky, I, Tonya, The Martian. And right now he's in two films. He won the best lead performance at the Venice Film Festival for A Different Man. And he's also starring as Donald Trump opposite Jeremy Strong's Roy Cohen in The Apprentice, which comes out this week. I saw both of these movies, very good films.

Good actor, good guy, surprising, surprising story, really. So he's on the show. That was fun. And also, I want to thank everybody who bought the 100 Brian Jones mugs. Most of that money, going to support the people and communities and businesses that were destroyed in the wake of Helene. Yeah, all the money going to that. And now we've got another pottery related way to help out East fork pottery, which is a big high volume

Pottery, I think it's called a mold pottery where you know, they make plates bowls mugs stuff like that household items I'm a big fan of it. All my plates bowls and mugs are East fork and All my plates, bowls, and mugs are East Fork, and more than 90% of the East Fork team is in the western part of North Carolina, which was just devastated by the hurricane. So they had a big sale of overstock and seconds, and that went very well. And a lot of the proceeds were going to their community partners,

working on the relief efforts, and the rest went to getting East Fork back on its feet. A lot of that stuff is sold out, but they're still doing it. They're taking 5% of the sales to go to several community partners. All sales of the full price pieces will help also keep the payroll going as they try to put their world back together and also support the community they are working in. You can go to Eastfork.com to see their stuff and you know, it's a way to help out. I'm sure there are many ways to help out.

You might want to look into that. I, Mark Maron, will be a Dynasty typewriter on Saturday, October 26th. The rest of my tour dates are scheduled for next year. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour to see all of them. Start the movie in a week. Overwhelming, overwhelmingly busy, busy weekend. On Friday, wow, Friday morning Kit woke up and her car had been stolen. So there was a lot of that drama around that.

It's a very, it's horrible to have anything stolen. But waking up and seeing your car gone, look, I've dealt with it, many people have dealt with it, but it's a life changer. It's a fucking nightmare. And so we went through that. Police reports, you had to do all that. It's one of those things. It's not unusual, sadly. But it's a big adjustment.

And these things kind of can make a little chaos, a little make tensions rise in the dynamic. But, you know, we got through it and figured out, you know, we gotta see what the insurance has to offer, maybe get another car and you deal with it. And then Saturday, Tom Sharpling's wedding was Saturday afternoon and, you know, it just, it's a hassle with the car thing now.

She lives across town and she comes over, we're getting ready to go to the wedding, she gets a call from the cops, they found the car. Like a half a block away. And she goes over there, she's flustered, she's gotta miss the beginning of the wedding, and she gotta deal with the cops. And whatever the case is, it showed up a half a block away.

And I don't know what, we were baffled. We don't know what the fuck that is. You know, there's part of me that's sort of like, you sure you know where you're parked? But she did. And it was just, we don't know what happened. And then Brendan said these Hyundai's and these Kia's are very easily to hijack

and it's a thing on TikTok where kids just start them up and take them for a ride. I guess that's what happened. Nothing was missing from the car and she made it back to the wedding, got dressed and we got went to the wedding. She got there in time for the first dance and what what a beautiful wedding it was. What a beautiful wedding. Congratulations to Tom Sharpling, Julia Vickerman. What a lovely ceremony. And weddings bring up a lot of feelings. I always cry at the weddings.

I've had two. One big one that we had little control over and one small one that we had complete control over. And neither of them worked out. But look, water under the bridge folks. But boy, sometimes when I'm at a wedding, I'm just like, wow, I blew it. I blew it and there's no unblowing it.

Lucky I didn't do a toast. I don't think that's a great way to open a toast. Hey, I don't wanna make this about me, but God damn it, did I fuck my life up when it comes to relationships? You know just not great Adam Fucked up a couple one ended tragically and here I am on the other side of it Wow, I Mean, I'm okay

Yeah We're okay. But, yeah, I opted out of the toast. But, God, what a lovely wedding. Every, you know, the lovely friends, and they did it exactly the way they wanted to do it. They're both creative people, just beautiful. And I'm thrilled for them. I cried, I danced a little, haven't danced in a while,

did a little dancing. Yeah, I can move. I can do it. You know, I'm not great, but I can shuffle a little bit. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. One of the things I've always committed to in my life and career is to be my true self. I don't know any other way to do it, folks, but I also know that a lot of people feel the need to hide themselves, like they're wearing a mask. I've done a little of that too. Maybe you need a mask to hide your insecurities.

Maybe you need to be a different person at work than you are in private. Maybe you don't even know why you do it. Therapy can help you learn to accept all parts of yourself so you can take off the mask, because masks should be for Halloween fun, not for our emotions. And even though I've tried to keep my masks off, I've been in therapy where I learned that I'm doing certain things to mask up anyway. Sometimes

it happens without you even knowing it. And a therapist can be the best person to see the mask you didn't even know you were wearing. Might be scary. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online and designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Take off the mask, folks.

With BetterHelp, visit betterhelp.com slash WTF today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash WTF. So the car's back, the wedding was great. Here's what I was gonna tell you about though. Look, I like when I nail something, I like when I feel like I did a good job creatively. I like when I do a new joke or I find something on stage I didn't find before.

I like the feeling of that. I like when I play guitar well and I, all the creative stuff I do, when something new happens or I nail it and I'm open enough to appreciate that, that feels good. Feels good. Yeah, I'll admit it.

You know, of course it does. You would think that's why you do what you do. If you do a, anything you do, it doesn't have to be creative, whatever it is. If you do a good job, you feel good. If you're like, yeah, I nailed that fucking thing. But you know, I'm starting to find sometimes it's not, it has nothing to do with creativity.

I like to, I do like, I like to, I do, like, I like to, I mean, here's what, and I think I've talked a little bit about this, but you know, sometimes when you solve a problem in your life, aren't you impressed with your ability that you've figured something out, or you tried to make it, you know, in a moment, you're like, I'm gonna handle it this way, and it turns out to be the right way to handle it.

It's great, right? Because I do all my own shit, I don't have an assistant. You know, I just, I do all my own shit. Really. People are like, why don't you have an assistant? I'm like, what would I do with my life? The life I live is the life I live. My creativity is that.

But I still gotta, I'm gonna do my own laundry. Yeah, I'm gonna water my own plants, drive myself places. I'm gonna manage all my media. Well, I actually, I don't manage my social media anymore. Thank God, because there's no win in that one. But I just like to do the shit in my life that humans do. Cook, you know, regular stuff.

I don't need an assistant, but here's like here, a couple things happened, all right? And this is just about my life, right? So I've got this coffee grinder, this burr grinder. And you know, it's a good one. I think it's a Baratza, Baratza Uncore. Yeah, I drink coffee every day. And you know, this is a burr grinder.

That's the best kind of grinder you can get. You can grind it precisely, from fine to coarse. But at some point, my burr grinder was just grinding one grind, and it wasn't particularly good. It was too, it was inconsistent. It wasn't particularly good it was too it was inconsistent it was too big it was too coarse and I and no matter how much I switched the I varied the grind knob thing same thing same thing and I'm upset about it and look I've got some money saved up I think there's an

argument to be made like well fuck it Just get rid of it get another one stop worrying about it. But no I gonna I'm gonna look on YouTube. What's up with this? Turns out this you know, there's a gasket in there or something that Is in the plastic piece a ring that things get broken off of it for a reason, you know Rockets in there whatever and if you replace it, it'll fix it. a reason, you know, rock gets in there, whatever. And if you replace it, it'll fix it. And I'm like, well, there you go. Look what we've done here.

We have a solution. But the thing about me, because I'm relatively untethered spiritually, is that I order these things and I ordered two of those rings just in case it happens again, right? And then I'm back up in Vancouver and This is before I left I had another month on the shoot and if I were to tell you that I spent 80% of my mind

Just thinking about fixing that coffee grinder just think about getting home and getting those plastic rings and Fucking fixing that thing and getting the grind, right? It that would be generous a lot of I just it was like my salvation It was like my hope It was how I was staying centered when I get home. I'm gonna fix that coffee grinder And i'm gonna have the grind that I need the fine grind for the cone

I just thought about all the time when I got home and I fixed that thing and it worked, I was like, holy shit, this is amazing. Where is my award? Look what I've done. Look at that grind. Where is the standing ovation? It was so satisfying. And it happened again. I'm driving back from Culver City.

I'd driven all the way to Culver City. And I live in, I live driving back from Culver City. I'd driven all the way to Culver City and I live in the East side. I live on the East side. And you really try to avoid going to the West side at all. Because, you know, some parties are like, should I just fucking get a room?

It's gonna take me an hour and a half to get back. So I'm driving back. This is another one of those things where It was so rewarding I'm driving back and I'm about an hour into this traffic shit show and The panel on my car everything starts going wrong parking brake fucked of front

collision camera fucked check check engine, engine fucked, and engines cutting out and everything, it's just like, it's just everything's going. And I'm like, what the fuck? Do I pull over? What am I doing here? It's not accelerating right. I can't turn the lights off, they're all fucking going.

But you know, it's still running, so I drive it, I make it home, and I'm like, Jesus Christ. But make it home and I'm like Jesus Christ But I get home and I think like wait a minute, dude How can all these things be going wrong? It doesn't seem possible, you know that all of these things would go wrong so I'm like dude just unplug the car Like, you know when you turn a car off and it's one of these newer cars with a full computer system in it's not going

to reboot itself Just fucking unhook the battery get under the hood Unhook the battery and let it sit for 10 minutes hook it back up See if you can reboot this thing because there's no way all those things are fucked up So I take the cables off the battery and I hook it up back up About 20 minutes later. I turn it on and problem solved again where are the people to celebrate me look what I did that was a pretty amazing bit of thinking and a sort of inspired bit of troubleshooting I want a prize so satisfying I

Mean between that and the coffee grinder. I mean my god What a month it's been And then I start to realize well if this is what's really making you happy More so than any of your creative outlets Maybe you should rethink your life. Maybe I should be an assistant. Maybe I should, that's what I should do. Just be one, you know, just an assistant to somebody. Hey, can you get that coffee machine checked out? I'll try to fix it myself.

That's my job. Maybe like a celebrity could hire me, you know? Maybe Josh Brolin needs an assistant, but then it'd be, that'd be difficult. He'd be like, hey Mark, can you saddle up the horse? You know, I can'd be like, hey, Mark, can you saddle up the horse? You know, I can't, Josh, I can't. Can't saddle up the horse. You gotta get your saddle guy to do that.

But I don't know, these little things, folks, these little things, you know? Like the other day I woke up and I'm like, I feel pretty good. What's that about? I'm just having a good day. And I remembered like, maybe it's just cause that coffee's ground

Just right got you going just the right way either way. It's all connected man. I guess that's the point. It's all connected alright look Sebastian Stan is here. He's in two movies right now The a24 film a different man is now playing in theaters and the apprentice opens in theaters this Friday, October 11th, it's a Donald Trump movie. It's good. It's very specific. It's one of these poetic little periods in time. It's really about Roy Cohn and how he created

the monster that we know. But I'd never met Sebastian before, and this is me and him talking for the first time. Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope but when we ask for help or we see someone struggling with addiction or we see someone struggling with addiction. Our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help or get help at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the Government of Canada.

Hey folks, let your imagination soar by visiting audible.ca. Audible has the best selection of audiobooks without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive audible originals, all in one easy app. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, basically any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being. Enjoy Audible anytime while you're doing other things. Household chores, exercising, on the road, commuting, you name it.

Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine, without needing to set aside extra time. You might want to check out some audiobooks by our recent guests like I Curse You With Joy by Tiffany Hannes or Sonic Life by Thurston Moore. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. I feel, I always feel like it's a little more sterile and I've taken things that were randomly around the old garage, which look out of context now, but before they were just part of a lot of clutter. But now because they're singular, people are like, what does this mean?

What is with this hammer? And I'm not sure I can explain everything. Well, the dice looks nice. Yeah, the dice, you know, it's just some fun thing. I don't know where they came from. There was a lot more clutter in the old place, and somehow, like this is like a fan made this, you know, for me with the cat and the WTF.

You know. That's great. Yeah, it's kind the cat and the WTF. You know, great. Yeah, it's kind of stuff like that. I hold on a minute. I'm like painfully addicted to nicotine right now. Well, listen, if it's not that, then it's probably something else, I guess. Yeah, that's for sure. I'm assuming this water is OK. Yeah, go ahead. Great.

Connie Chung didn't want it. You can have it. She sat there yesterday and I got her the water. Connie Chung. Connie Chung was sitting right there. Interesting. So what, were you a nicotine addict? I did smoke cigarettes for about 16 years.

Oh, what kind? I think by the end, I did smoke cigarettes for about 16 years. What kind? I think by the end, well, for a while there was that Marlboro 27s. Oh, so you started late. You're younger than me. Like when I was younger, it was a Marlboro box or the Marlboro soft pack. And then I remember when lights came out. So by the time you're smoking Marlboro's, they had all kinds of interesting branding going on. Yeah, I remember that.

And then it was, okay, it's gonna be American Spirits because that's- It's healthy. Right. But the yellow ones never had enough, you didn't feel enough of the thing. Oh yeah? So then I went to blue.

Did you get the thing? American Spirits, which- The blue? Did you feel enough of the thing with the blue? The hit, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was good. But I was also never, I was never like a morning coffee cigarette person,

which I know they're those people. Oh yeah. I actually dreaded the first cigarette. So then for a while I thought, why am I even smoking? You dreaded it because it felt bad? Well, the first one was always, you know, you get dizzy, you get weird, and then I had to get to the second one quickly so that I could normalize for the rest of the day.

These are addict responsibilities. I know. We have a system. You gotta have a system. I know. I'm fucking 60 and I'm still hooked on nicotine one way or the other. I haven't smoked in a long time, but you know these things and whatever yeah

I I guess it was I quit in like 2016 And then I had you know and then you did the rolling cigarettes because you thought that all you did that like white like drum Cool drum yeah with the filter and everything But I I was I've always liked working out and then when I started to just see it kind of slow me down I was like, okay, this is okay. This is nothing to replace it more working out No, I mean Yeah, no, I and I never you know, I didn't do the vaping and no no no these are these people do no no vaping I don't know what that is. I don't know where it comes from

I don't know what it is, I don't know where it comes from. I don't know what it is. But chewing tobacco people do, and I never did that. Well, this is like, these are non-tobacco nicotine pouches. I think it's just a little sachet of wood pulp soaked in nicotine. Yummy. Interesting.

The only time I miss, the only time I still get a thing is when you're on set. Because you would wait, and it would be something that, or I remember going and waiting in front of auditions and getting there, looking at the sides, and having a cigarette, like, OK. Yeah, focus. So now I just use Listerine spray.

Oh, yeah? Does that work? Before the take, weirdly, like, it sets my mind in the. So it's a little ritual. Something. Yeah. before it takes sets my mind in the so it's a little a little ritual something yeah yes so it now I don't I don't know like here I'll put this out right at the beginning I don't know anything don't worry no I don't know anything about Marvel oh okay zero that's I know you're very popular in it. People love you. It's an important part. This fella, Bucky Barnes, the Winter Soldier guy.

I know. I know. Well, he, I, 15 years. Of Bucky Barnes. He's been around and I, yeah. How many movies? Uh, I, uh, God, I think it was six. So that's a big deal. That's a nice job. Yeah, I mean, I've, yeah, it was very, I was very lucky to have something to return to. Yeah, but you're one of those, I mean, I imagine you're one of, I just talked to Elizabeth Olsen.

Right, I just heard it, yeah. Who has a smaller role in the Marvel Universe, but with that comes the Marvel Universe. People who love it. Right. So extreme, extreme fandoms. Yeah. So you have, so I would assume that- I have extreme fandom, yes.

So it's hard to walk down the street in some places? Well, you know, weirdly, it is, yeah. It is sometimes, but I don't know. In New York, I still somehow get away with it. I mean, people film you. Is that where you live? A lot of the time, yeah. New York, yeah.

But it's been a bit of bi-coastal. Yeah. And LA, obviously, you're more isolated, which isn't necessarily a good thing, as you know know, right, but you know you in order to walk them around people you have to make a day of it Yeah, you have to go somewhere in New York. You just walk outside Exactly. There's always this plan that has to happen here, which is annoying But yeah, I and so I do that and sometimes people will still come up obviously and sometimes they'll just not notice It's yeah, and some people are just not notice. It's New York.

And some people are cool, but I just don't know about that. My fans are, I'm kind of a boutique act. So a lot of times in New York, especially, because of the podcast, not necessarily the comedy, people be walking by with earphones on, they'll be like, right now, I'm listening to you. I'm listening to you right now. But I feel like you probably, I feel like you would have some extreme, you know, has anyone ever showed up at your house?

Yes. Okay, me too. Those are interesting experiences. The most interesting thing about it is you can't do anything about it. Really. You just say, which I did once, hey listen, this is nice, but I've seen you twice now, and maybe the third time I might have to, I don't know, tell someone. Yeah, you can tell somebody, but like, cause I've had a situation where, you know,

someone was parking in front of my house, and just spending the evening there. Literally just, you know, watching movies, hanging out, and they were putting gifts on my porch, you know, and movies, hanging out, and they were putting gifts on my port, you know, and they, the first time that they showed up, they actually rang my doorbell and was like, Hey, I just, I saw your tweet. I thought it was, and it was one of those things where I, I was like, it's not great. This is not cool. This is not right. It's a little creepy.

Well, it's like the thing about LA is you have these windows and Matt all these doors sure at least in New York You got one right and sometimes you're three or four floors up exactly, right? But it was this whole process where eventually you're like, you know, what is my recourse on this and if they're not on your property There's very little that you can do except wait it out and hope nothing bad happens. I mean, do you order Postmates and then... Get sent it out to them? Have a little something to eat? Eventually, you know, they go away, hopefully. Uh, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right?

It's a blessing and a curse. I mean, I don't... There's also some beautiful people sure of course are so supportive Well, I think what happens is parasocial relationships Is that especially when I do this because I reveal and talk about myself so often? I think that some people's relationship with me is fairly intimate So a lot of my fans that they know that and they know it's one-sided and they're pretty they're all very good people You get a couple of mentally ill people, you know, and you know, they're they around us all the time. I'm not sure I'm not one of them. Well, yeah

I mean I and I actually Sometimes you probably speak openly and candidly as you do and sometimes right feel closer. That's right. That's it Yeah, and I understand that But your character in Marvel is not that you don't have that kind of intimate relationship with well The thing about the character is that he actually you know had a lot of kind of emotional and mental baggage that he overcomes yeah and he has to make peace with his past so there's a lot of people that like relate. He is a lot of people especially vets for instance have come up to me and

they tell me that they you know the characters helped them deal with depression or addiction or PTSD. That's great. It is, so from that standpoint it's very. Those are the best kind of feedback, the best kind of feedback, cause I get emails through the website and they're like, you helped me get sober,

I was in a dark time, you helped me through that. And you don't even know when you're doing it that's what you're doing. It's not your intention. Right. You're not a motivational speaker. No, but somehow you end up becoming one. That's right.

When you do comic cons and stuff, how do you approach that? Um, well, I've always been very open about like my own struggles in a way. Cause I felt it's what keeps me connected to the planet, right? I mean, I'm like, I'm like, dude, I don't have it figured out. I'm trying to do this as best as I can as everybody else. Sure. And for the most part, I think that's helped, I think, kind of people in a way.

But yeah, I try to speak openly about that. About yourself? About my kind of struggles. And that's also good for like like for extreme fans To sort of get a sense of you Yes, but I also have realized that sometimes When you when you when you want to kind of branch out of that Yeah you can't because because they they stole you know like I had somebody come up to me on the street one time and then and they did and they the intention was good

Yeah, right, but I didn't know how to deal with it because they came up and they said hey, are you okay? I just want to make sure you're okay. I just I just want to make sure you're okay, and I was like I'm really okay Yeah, you know where they talk about the character or I don't know But I think I think what the internet and social media really has done. Yeah. Um, and I'm off of that now. Like I was, I had to get out of it because I was,

I couldn't, I couldn't believe the, the sort of, um, kind of like, uh, gap between the real world and, and sort of this make believe reality that was happening on social media for people. Yeah. Even as it pertains to me.ains to me, I just, I was like, this is too much. But it was exhausting you and it's upsetting if you were locking into it too much,

because it can become kind of compulsive. Well, I've always prided myself to be, I think, an honest person. Right. You know, when I was on there, I really wanted to speak openly, and I did, honestly, about person. Right. You know, when I was on there, I really wanted to speak openly, and I did, honestly, about everything. Right, on Instagram and whatnot?

That was the only one I had. Yeah, yeah. But then I've noticed that it didn't really matter anymore because whatever my truth was, as long as it didn't align with other people's ideas of me, Right. then it didn't even matter, right? So, and then I thought, well, I'm now caught in this thing

where I might be part of something that's not true, or a fake version of myself. And I don't want to do that anymore. Yeah, it gets confusing. Well, that's that parasocial relationship. They've decided that they know you. And that even when you're saying that's not me, they're like, no, you're really not.

Yeah, and I just don't, I don't think it's healthy to read stuff, good or bad, actually, about yourself. And so I've kind of stopped doing that as a result. Totally? I mean, I'll read, like any good old Samaritan, I'll read reviews. I'll read, obviously, like if there's work involved Yeah, that's interesting because that's like I find that if you read a review of your performance and whatever or

Of a comedy special or whatever for me that if the person is smart Like if you respect their intellect that sometimes it can be you know helpful and and at least Give you a different side of what you did. And I've read reviews where I'm like, wow, I never thought of it that way, and that's a good point. That's very interesting. I mean, I've thought of it this way.

Like, if you have, and you know how, I mean, these comedy specials, I can't imagine how much work goes into it, it's so personal, right? You're putting your heart out there. It's human to wanna see if the idea has landed on the person or not. And so I think it comes from that place,

but I also do feel like that could be bad in itself. I just don't know if I believe when people are like, oh, I don't read reviews. I'm like, I think if you care about the work and you care about- You're gonna read them. Well, I think you're interested to know, or somebody else tells you about it. You know?

Right, I think that the people that have those kind of boundaries and are really able to detach from it, they're probably better off, but I think that if you're reading the reviews for whatever reason, there is some fundamental insecurity, you know, that you want, either reaffirmed or sadly sometimes,

no, sadly reaffirmed, you're thinking like, I just wanna see an outside perspective of this, but as soon as, like no matter what they say that's good, the one thing that they kind of- That's what you hang on with. You're like, oh, I fucking knew it. It's the one negative thing. Yeah, yeah.

That, and that's like a very, I read that's like a very actual human brain like thing that we, right? For survival, we're more programmed to look, focus on the negative rather. To be vigilant, to be ready. Right, and then actually if you read something good, then you're like, oh shit, now I'm fucked, now I've got to, I got to like somehow keep this up. Live up to it. Yeah, and that and it's so.

Yeah, so like when you say you tried to be open about your struggles, what's your primary struggle? I mean, we can go back. Well, no. I mean, I think, you know, like, I, I mean, I, you know, I didn't grow up in this country. I had a lot of, I had a very kind of,

I wouldn't say turbulent childhood. Where was it? Was it where you grew up in Romania? I was born in Romania, but I moved a lot. So you're Romanian? By birth. Originally, yes, by birth. Yeah, I mean, and I've lived there until-

How much did you cut off of your name? None of it, believe it or not. I know everyone's like, I'm not like Stanislavski, which is Russian, but none of it really. But Sebastian also is sort of not really an American name. Yes, but my mom's a pianist, and my father's name was Stan. That was his last name. And in Romania, you actually, when you address a person by their full name, you actually address them

with the last name first. So in Romania, I'd be addressed as Stan Sebastian. So she wanted to get a name that would go with Stan, and then she thought of Johann Sebastian Bach because of the thing, and that's how I ended up with it. So you grew up with piano in the house? I did, and then we moved to Vienna for four years. Vienna?

Yeah, Vienna, Austria. How are your memories of this stuff? Certain memories, certain memories, but not, I mean, I can't tell you what I was doing on a Tuesday in 1993, but, but, uh, fairly good. I mean, but again, like I didn't get to the States until 95 when I was 12. And then even then I would move households and schools. Cause I didn't speak German.

I got just thrown into a German public school when I was in America, in Vienna, when I was nine. So, and I was just trying to survive. So I guess like what I'm saying is I've always had to kind of search for my identity in a way or search for, you know, kind of, and having this unsettling feeling about, you know, being good enough or is this enough for you? Yeah. And, and so, and so I've talked about that extensively.

Well, was your father, were they running from the, from, what was his name, Ceaușescu? Yeah, my father actually left, so I had a stepfather as well, who was a big part of my life, but my father, yeah, my parents grew up in that generation that was standing up to Ceausescu and communism in Romania. And so they had to leave.

My father left early on. My parents had divorced when I was three. My father left really- Was he in the government? No, he was not in the government. He was actually quite a hero in some small circles. Oh yeah, for what? For standing up? He was actually quite a hero in some small circles. Oh yeah, for what?

For standing up? Well, he was also helping people leave the country. Wow. Illegally. And that was not obviously what was happening at the time. Yeah. But he had left early, early on. Because he saw it coming?

Mid-80s. Yeah. And then my mom and I didn't leave until after the revolution in 91. Did you have trouble getting out? Well, when the revolution happened, and you talk about memories, right? I remember that very vividly, like watching on television Chow Cesko and his wife being shot and killed. Yeah.

You know? And this car blazing through the street with a giant hole in the middle of the flag, which they had cut out that communist symbol. So, and it was chaos after that. I mean, no one knew how to function basically. A lot of, and actually a lot of families had sent their kids out to find jobs and food

and things like that. So you ended up with a giant orphan kind of population. That was a thing, the Romanian orphans. Yeah. There's a documentary about it. And so there was chaos after the revolution. And my mom had been a pianist and she got an opportunity to go and play piano in one of the greatest musical capitals of the world, Vienna. Yeah, she took it.

And then she came back and took me about a year and a half later. So I lived with my grandparents for a while. So I had a lot of abandonment in my life. So what I'm saying is, and that's why, I've gone through my own kind of being like, how the fuck am I gonna use this and come out of this and not let this fucking destroy me?

Well, it's interesting because whatever the abandonment thing is, whether it's emotional or actual, like you do sort of like, I just have this theory in terms of how I think about myself, is I don't think myself was developed. Because of whatever, you know, their boundaries or whatever. But I do think that not only with moving and everything else, when your dad splits and even though you got a stepdad and there's all this chaos, you don't really know how you fit or what

your place is or who you are on some level. No, because I think we come into this world as blank canvases, right? Kinda. Well, as babies. Yeah, but within a week or two, your parents start to put shit on the canvas. Exactly, like you're already,

like there's the narratives, there's the trauma, there's the thing that we inherit, and then I guess if you have a chemical disposition to go with that, then maybe you are a sociopath. Yeah. Well, the whole thing about wiring, in terms of, I'm doing material about it now, that if you grow up a certain way,

and if it's not particularly good, you're wired for that and you'll attract that. So then you have to make decisions in your life where it's sort of like, I can't, no. It's a red flag, I know it feels good, but I can't do it. I know, I think of it as like, you're always trying to get ahead of the shadow. Right, yeah. The shadow's coming with you, right?

The Jungian shadow? Yeah. Well, whatever, yeah, it's like, and you're trying to make sure you're either in step with it or ahead of it before it gets there. Before it takes over? Right. And so you've been evading it through characters for a lot of your life. I think that might be the reason why anything creative

is probably the best therapy for all of us. Sure, get me out of me. Oh, God. Please, please get me out. This seems good. I can be this guy for a while. So is your dad still around? No, both of my dad and my stepdad have passed.

Your mom? Yeah, my mom is around. Yeah, God willing, God bless. Only child. So she's, and you know, yeah, she's all I got. She must be excited. She's very excited. She's very excited. She thinks I'm aging very quickly, but.

Of course, of course, because that means she is, and it's hard to take. It's true. Yeah, yeah, I guess so. But she's, yeah, she's proud and happy. And she's, and she now, like, does she have a Romanian accent and everything? Fully, the biggest one.

And the thing is this, like, when we first came to America, the communist mentality, like, we first came to America the communist mentality like followed her You know it was like don't tell anybody where we're from don't tell anybody so we would go to a restaurant And like we'd be sitting there and she'd be ordering food and like this thick Romanian accent the waiter very nicely would be like Oh, where are you from and she'd be like from here? And then I'd have to awkwardly stand there and just kind of be like oh my god like why can't we just say where we're from? Yeah, but it was all it was only years later when I became a teenager that And then I'd have to awkwardly stand there and just kind of be like, oh my God, like, why can't we just say where we're from? But it was only years later when I became a teenager that,

and the fortunate thing is she never stopped speaking to me in Romanian, so I actually still speak it as a result of that. And then I could be like, okay, I should be proud of this. Sure, yeah, it's interesting. I have no sense of Romania. Like, what kind of foods did you grow up with? I mean, you know, it's your meat and potatoes,

sauerkraut. Oh yeah, kraut, yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. You know, a lot of pork, sausage. Pork sausages, yeah, yeah. Wrapped cabbage. Yeah, are there like stuffed cabbage? Stuffed cabbage, yeah. Yeah, yeah, are there like, are there like pierog? Stuffed cabbage. Yeah. Yeah. Are there like are there like

Pierogies involved that's Ukrainian. Are there some sort of Romanian dumpling of some sort? There are those and there's like these weird crepes that you do with jam and stuff It's um, and your mom cooks like that or no, she does. Yeah. Yeah, she still does every every Christmas It's still a big big Big Romanian feast? Yeah. Do you have family there still in Romania? No, my grandparents passed. I have friends, but pretty much everybody that was in our life at the time is sort of gone, yeah. Wow.

So when you get to the States, you start where? Jersey? Rockin' County. Yeah. Rockin' County. My stepfather was the headmaster of a high school that I went to. Is he Romanian?

No, he was American. Okay. And that was a big, big reason why I was able to learn and kind of lose the accent. Because he was the headmaster of the school you were at? Well, he came, so my parents were in Vienna and he came to my life about 10. So I started to really learn English when I was 10.

And it's kind of a crucial age for, for still learn the language. So still in Vienna? Yeah. And then we moved from there to Rocking County where- That's New York, right? Yeah. About like half an hour outside of the city.

Okay. And he took a job. That's why he went there? To be a... Yeah, yeah, he was hired to be the headmaster of this school, and then it was a great school, it was a small, like, liberal arts kind of like high school and, you know, where you were like on a first name basis

with the teacher. Oh, right, right, sure. It was, and it was great because there were only, there were only 120 kids pre-K through senior. I had like 12 kids in my class, and so you would be encouraged to do everything. Go do theater, go do, be on the school. What a blessing. Paper, yeah.

And your mom was an artist. And my mom was a pianist. Well yeah, but I mean, so there was none of that kind of like, what are you doing with your life thing? No, and she had tried to get me into acting even in Vienna, and I just didn't really want to get into it. But she was, I think her support and her understanding was a big piece.

How old were you when she tried to get you into acting? Like nine? Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah. She took me to this TV show that Michael Hannecke was doing in Vienna, and I hated it. It was a nightmare It's like this is what just to be a kid Yeah, I just I think it's hard when you're and sometimes I look at kids that you know end up being child actors

And and I could see why they have this weird relationship with with it because it becomes a chore And I think when you're a kid you don't want it to be a chore Yeah, I'd be fine. You want it to be and you want to be a kid you want to be a kid, you don't want it to be a chore. You want it to be fun. You want it to be, and... You want to be a kid. You want to be a kid, you know? Well, you avoided that. Yeah, yeah. You shut that down, but then it came back around. How does it come back around?

Nine, you drew a line, I'm not an actor, and then when, how old were you when you like, ah, I am. High school, I had some friends that were auditioning for a school play, The Importance of Being Earnest, and then I joined the next play, and then I went to a theater camp, very much like the movie theater camp, called Stage Room Manor. Yeah. For what, a month? Like a couple weeks during the summer, and it was this magical, incredible place.

Yeah. You got to do musicals and plays and then... Yeah. When was the last time you did a musical? Not since... Theater camp? Not since high school. Yeah, exactly. High school. West Side Story, I think I did. But that's like a, that's a good sort of entry to be surrounded, like, because like for me, and I talk about this a lot, like I don't go to a lot of musicals But when I do go I'm immediately crying just because people singing

There's some kind of vulnerability to it that just kind of gets me every time that use of the voice and when there's a lot Of people doing it. I'm like, oh my god. I don't even know what they're saying, but I'm all emotional No, I mean rent you just see rent. I didn't see it. That was a fucking amazing that did it for you That I was obsessed with that like every kid at the time when that came out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah But there are some that and I was I mean, I'm an okay singer. I'm not I shouldn't be doing Phantom of the Opera right, right right Yeah, I think I think there's an art to it and not everybody's good at it, you know Yeah, but just like when people use their voice that way,

I think I was paralyzed with fear about singing. So when people do it, I'm like, how are they just singing? I've gotten over that. I can sing. Do you do karaoke ever? No, I'm terrified of karaoke. But I've recently, because I play guitar my whole life, and never really in a band or anything,

I started playing with dudes and doing cover songs and just getting over this fear of, because there's something to me that's so vulnerable about singing. But people who do it, it's like, ah, and for me it's just like, oh my God, I gotta fucking sing in a second. It's hard. Yeah, it's just scary.

For me it's just too, like it's so easy to fuck up. Like, you know, within a second people are like, oh, he's not nailing it. Well, yeah, Like, you know, within a second, people are like, oh, he's not nailing it. Well, yeah, or, you know, it's always terrifying when you hear of people having like the background tracks and that they're singing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's no good. So when do you start like really doing it in college?

Yeah, I mean, my first job was law and order, like everybody that was on the East Coast And that came myself. Where'd you learn? Oh, it's sophomore year college sophomore college. I went to Rutgers University Basically high school New Brunswick New Brunswick Mason Gross. My dad went to Rutgers. Really? Yeah, cool I mean it was a great school, but it was the program itself was very different than the school It was it was much more secluded, the theater arts. Yeah, I've not heard of the Rutgers Theater Arts Department, was good?

It was because it had everybody that kind of went to the neighborhood playhouse in the city and came up under Meisner, had gone on and was teaching there. Oh, no kidding. We had Israel Hicks from SUNY Purchase come down and became the director. OK. Israel Hicks from SUNY Purchase. Yeah. Come down and became the director. Okay.

And so it was, and it had a year in London at The Globe that we did, the junior year in college. So you had, that was the benefit of being that close in proximity to New York is you had all these great teachers and actors who were. That was that, but another very key piece to it for me was when I was at this theater camp I met my manager, who I I'm still with Emily Gerson Sains And I was 14 and and she saw me in I think Greece gave me her theater camp Yeah, gave me her number and said when you come back, you know from at the end of the summer

Yeah, give me a call You should be going out and I actually lost her number and then I she remembered I was working at this movie theater as an usher and then she called The movie theater Wow, she was really on you. She was like this is kids good Yeah, I guess and so and then so she started sending me out like so I was going out on auditions while I was finishing high school Yeah, and and but and I wanted to go at that point. I was like I'm going to the city I want to be this I want to do that and she actually was like no you need to go to college Yeah, you need to go to college. You need to get an education.

Yeah. And I did, I got into Rutgers and then, I remember the first job I got was that law and order with Jerry Orbach and Jesse L. Martin. Wow, so did you go four years, college? I did. Yeah, so you got the whole thing. I did, yeah.

Oh good, that helped out I guess, Well at least you got that under your belt. Yeah I mean it was a it was a magical place. I think it was good. I mean I I I don't know how you feel like I think there was great value about not not getting too successful too quickly. Yeah I'm still in that. I don't know. I hold on to that. Yeah, I'm still in that. I mean, that's crazy. I don't know. I hold onto that. Yeah, I don't think it was ever an intention, but now it's a good rationalization.

Yeah, I don't want to rush it. You know, I'm 60. It's just starting to happen. It might just be something we accept, like about ourselves. Yeah, sure. At some point, you kind of have to. If you get rejected enough, you've got to at least say, well, you know, I'm doing what I do.

Eventually they'll come around. Exactly, I'm always like, Harrison Ford, Harrison Ford was a carpenter forever. There you go. And then Star Wars. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my heroes have to keep getting older and older. You know, at some point it was this,

and then like, well, Rodney Dangerfield, he was like 60 something. I love Rodney Dangerfield. Oh yeah, he's great. But so the law and order thing, that gets you going. That got me going. And then every summer, basically I would come into Manhattan and then I would do catering and I would work in restaurants and I would just go out.

And then I sort of, when I got out of school in 2005, I moved to the city right away. And then I was working as a waiter basically. And then I started to book things here and there. And then obviously Marvel really happened. Well, before that was the show Gossip Girl, which was- Right, that was a big show. It was a big show at the time in the city. And that helped. So you didn't do your first movie until-

The first movie I worked on was actually in 2005 when I graduated and it had Incredible actors in it like Isabella Rossellini and Violet Davis. Which movie? The Architect. Okay. Yeah So so you're working with eight was your part big? I had a good part. Yeah, like I was Anthony La Paglia's son. It was a pretty It was a pretty decent part, and it was sort of about, I think it took place in Chicago at the time, and it was about class systems, and it was really intricate, but unfortunately not a lot of people saw it.

And then, just there was a couple other things I kind of booked and loved at the time. You worked with Jonathan Demme before he he passed not too not too long right twice actually yeah He saw me in a play. I did this play on Broadway called talk radio with Leah Shriver of course Oh, you know that was the Arab Magojan thing. Yeah, which character did you play the little rock guy? Yeah, Michael Wink. I isn't the one in the movie. Yeah, he comes to the studio and he's like, hey man. Yeah.

You played that guy? Yeah, yeah. With Liev? With Liev. A young Liev? Liev was 38 at the time. Oh, all right. Cause I just was in a movie,

this Jude Law movie that's coming out. I played the guy that it's based on. I played Alan Berg. Oh. The actual Denver talk radio guy who was assassinated, who was shot down by The Order, the domestic terrorist group in the 80s. Are you in The Order?

Yes. Oh, I can't wait to see them. Briefly, I opened the movie on the mic as that guy, and then I'm gunned down in my driveway. It was like three days of work, and I'd never done squibs before so that was kind of interesting you know to get the blowing up of the blood and stuff and but it was funny because I don't know it was one of

these things where they're like we only got two jackets. We gotta get it exactly yeah we got to get this right you got to go down correctly. He's one of my favorite directors Justin Curzell Yeah, he's a very interesting guy man. He's intense and you know, I'd like to interview him for for the movie You know, like I said, it's not a huge part But it's an important part because it was really what put them on the map was gunning this guy down and he was not It was before talk radio was a political thing So he was really just this personality who was political,

but also very publicly Jewish. And they just chose that guy. Unbelievable. And when the offer came in, because of what I do and what my past is in terms of these mics, and they're like, they want you to play Allen Berg in this movie.

I'm like, do you want to do it? I'm like, who else is gonna do it? But did you think about the guy eating French fries outside of your house in the middle of the night? I mean. That wasn't a guy, but. Okay. So I think her intentions were different

than possibly Kilman, but you never know who's gonna gun you down. But nonetheless, I thought, like, you know, it's an interesting little part. And, you know, I'd been doing some acting and I'm trying to figure out, like, why I, whether I like it or not. So like, there were just some acting and I'm trying to figure out like why I, whether I like it or not.

So like there were just like and I looked enough like him, I had a beard and I was able to sort of manufacture a look and though he lived in Colorado, he had a slight Midwestern kind of accent thing so I tried to get that in there. So anytime I do any acting I'm like, did I do the choices come off? Can you see it? I feel like that's never gonna go away.

No matter what, how big the thing, or if it's Spielberg, it's gonna be there. That's, but that's the only thing that makes it interesting, right? I think we have to keep seeking always. And I think that's, if you're going into that day and you walk away and you feel like, oh like oh, yeah, I just home run that thing Yeah, I think you probably missed something right well, so tell me about Demi like what was that experience?

Well, he was incredible because you know he saw me in that play and he was like I'm doing this movie with Anne Hathaway And I don't have a part for you, but I'll just figure something out And then so he put me at the beginning of the movie as sort of this weird patient I think when she comes out of rehab or something. I love that movie actually I love her. It was awesome yeah I mean it was so and he brought me later on he was like I don't know but you should be in this movie again like later as a different character and I was like really and he put me in the wedding sequence but it was amazing because he shot this wedding,

like a wedding. It was, we had, you know, from 6 PM until midnight, it was very fluid and all natural. And I mean, here's the guy who did, right, Philadelphia. And sure, something wild. Silence of the Lambs. And so, and so he actually set a precedent for me because I thought, you know, apropos to what you just said, there's no small parts.

There's no small actors, only small parts. But like I said, OK, it doesn't matter what I'm doing in these movies, even if it's one scene, I'm going to try and keep working with people that are way ahead of me. So I'm chasing them, you know? And so from there, I kind of did little parts in, you know, like a movie with Black Swan with Aronofsky was one scene.

That's a crazy movie. Which scene were you in? Were you a dancer? I was. I wish I would have been a ballerina dancer. No, I was in the scene with Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis when they're going dancing, like taking drugs.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was a, I mean, I was like, I can't believe I'm going to work with these, this is my job. Yeah. But yeah, I tried to always surround myself with the right people that I could learn from and kind of just keep going.

And he started that with me. But like at what point where, because I'm gonna talk about acting a bit because I have to ask some specific question, but at what point, because it seems to me that with the acting, however you're gonna come to a place where you can work from for a character,

once you put that in place, then you're making sort of choices that will define the role that are very conscious, I think, right? In terms of when you show up on set and then you do it, you're kind of, sort of, whatever you've put in place, it's a choice, right? I mean, I talk to actors a lot, I'm like, you wanna lose all that stuff.

But I find that when you're in it, you kinda gotta keep some of it. You gotta be aware. Well, yeah, I mean, I think the hardest and trickiest part of all of it is the beginning before you start. I think it's the preparation that precedes that day one. Because once you start going and you get there,

there's all the other actors, there's the director, there's stuff that's happening. Basically, you're preparing yourself for lightning to strike, right? And you wanna be as ready for that as possible while remaining available. So what was the first role where you were like, I've got a big responsibility in this movie

and whatever I put in place, it's got a, it's sort of, where you really felt like this, I've really, this is the real work. I mean, weirdly, I felt like that about everything I was doing at the time. I mean, even I had that kind of responsibility and fear and stuff, even with Marvel.

I mean, there were challenges. I mean, as I got older, things evolved more. I mean, again, I go back to I, Tonya in 2018 was a really different departure from stuff I'd done before. How so? Well, he was a real guy. Yeah. He spoke a certain way.

He looked very different than me. He studied that guy? I did. I mean, I met him. I was obsessively, I studied him. And it was a different approach to it than I had done before, but it also was one of those things where, you know, in order to speak like him, I had to speak like him all the time.

Like, I realized there's certain things that you can't just, like, do it in the moment. Like, you have to do it consistently and to some extent, stay in it enough so that you don't, you're not conscious of it anymore. Yeah. So it seeps into your body and there's, and that was a different challenge I was asking for that.

And then I've had other roles since then that have kind of required that. So I feel like I've changed my approach from that film. And I guess that because it's a real guy, you have a template there for at least mannerism, inflection. Yeah, I mean, you have something to, you know the target at least.

Yeah. And it's like, I always think of that scene in Apollo 13, you know, when they're like trying to figure out how to get him back and they dump shit on the table and they take a circle and they're like, we gotta fit a circle in a triangle. Yeah. And you're like, that's how it is, right?

You get handed this thing and you're like, hopefully I can get in there and fit in the right way. Well, so these two movies that are out now that are sort of like, you know, about to take off. About self abandonment. Right? Denial of reality. Right, well, I mean, to play Trump at this particular point in history, a younger Trump, because I watched that movie

and I watched a different man. I watched both of them. I can't believe you got through it. I mean, all, both of them. I didn't know to ask. I was like, maybe I shouldn't ask. No, no, no. So like, cause I'd heard about The Apprentice,

I didn't really know. And then like I had to put together who you were. And I realized, like I've seen him in everything. I've seen him in a million things. And I saw, you know, I, Tonya and that role, that guy's, you know, he's a great actor. together who you were and I realized like I've seen him in everything I've seen him a million things that you know And I saw you know, I Tanya and that role that guy's a you know, very specific type of douchebag Yeah, and you've got to approach these guys as people and I mean you had a relationship with obvious with him Obviously to sort of get it right

well, I met him I only met him once, you know and and And that was in enough for me, I guess. Was he in jail? No. Oh. No, no, no, he was in Portland, Oregon, I believe. Just a guy. Yeah, he's moved on and living his life, and he was generous enough to meet with me, because he, and the thing about Aitani was you know

It was the first time he had shared his side of the story. He'd never Shared any of his side, you know, did you get any feedback from him after the movie? I Think he emailed me and he said you were the only one that cared. Oh, really? That's kind of touching in a weird way, right? Look, I mean, you know, touching in a weird way, right? Look, I mean, you know, it was obviously, I mean, I think, I think, I think as an actor, you know, you have to, you have to serve the story and the director and the vision and what and, and, and do that in a way without getting your own emotional POV involved.

Right. Right. And you got to deal with the humanity of the character, no matter how flawed. getting your own emotional POV involved. Right, you gotta deal with the humanity of the character no matter how flawed. Yeah, you gotta figure out what happened and do that as best as possible. And because, you know, it's very interesting to me that now really like people actually are like,

how can this person be a human being? And you're like, well, I don't know. Do you think he shits, sleeps and... Or they're one dimensional monsters. I know. But there's still, right? There's still, it started somewhere. Like we said, there's a blank canvas at one point and something happened.

Well, I mean, that's what's interesting about the Trump movie, about The Apprentice, is that because like I'm watching it, and I know certain stories and I've seen different depictions of Roy Cohn, and I've certainly seen caricatures of Trump, but like this movie is really about a bordering on romantic relationship between Cohen and Trump early on.

Like it's even suggested I think in the movie that Cohen's intentions initially might have been you know more emotional or almost sexual than just like Anita. Well he seemed to have a type if you're looking at the kind of people he was surrounding himself with, or it was a guy before Trump,

and he was tall and he was blonde. Yeah, right. You know, so. But all the baggage that Cohen comes with, and you know, you've heard about that relationship, and that, you know, I saw Angels in America, that depiction of Cohen, yeah, I saw that, and I've read about Cohen, and you know, he's a he's a very

Complex horrible man And I and I was amazed to find out that he was a democrat initially Or later. I mean, is that true? I mean listen that that's that's what we were finding out. I mean, but but um, that's uh, yeah well, he's you know his intentions and where that comes from that origin story is different, but, but, um, that's a, yeah. Well, he's, you know, his intentions and where that comes from, that origin story is different, but because it precedes Trump by many years, but you coming into Trump, like I was, I was happy on some level that you didn't try to do an impression and that must've been a choice.

A hundred percent. I mean, I, one of the things I did, I did was actually, which I would never do with anything else, but was actually look at all of the different kinds of takes on him. Yeah. From SNL to impressions to your average guy on TikTok. Right. Or, you know, and see what people were doing

in order to learn. The caricature. Yeah, in order to learn what not to do. Uh-huh. You know, and I found that we've been so habituated and familiarized with the voice or the lips or whatever. That it's almost like your senses are kind of like numb towards, you know, towards... The real guy. Yeah, and the real guy, I mean, the guy that was in with Rona Barrett and then later with Oprah

and Larry King was a very different guy. Yes. Um, I mean, he had those familiar tics even then, but they seemingly evolved into, into something. I always wondered whether it was conscious on his part because I feel like in way, he became a brand. Exaggerated. Yeah, and maybe he fell into it himself.

A schtick. Yeah, because it's better to be remembered, whether it's good or bad anyway. Well, now you sound like him. I mean, there you go. Right. I mean, but some of it seems very, it was interesting. But I thought, yeah, I thought the choices that you made to portray him, like, there's a lot of things

that I think that people don't realize is that he wasn't the chosen son. He was a schlub who was kind of doing this shit work for his dad. He was a really, he was a really rambunctious kid. I mean, I remember there was a story about how he threw something at a teacher, you know, he was getting into, he was very, he was a little bit, um, he had a crazy energy.

He was getting into fights and stuff. And then, um, you know, he, whether he cared for attention, it seemed like he wanted attention. Remember he was a middle kid too. Yeah. Um, which is also in itself, something else, but then, you know, he was a middle kid too. Yeah. Which is also in itself something else. But then, you know, he went with his friend into Manhattan and bought like switchblade knives

or whatever. And that's when the dad, you know, cause he saw West Side Story, he wanted to be a gangster or whatever. And then his father saw that and sent him to military school. And, you know, I think a lot probably happened over there to kind of shape this mentality.

Because there was a moment when he came back and he was leading the parade down Fifth Avenue where he was later gonna build his tower. And it was sort of a return into the city. But I think all with the goal of kind of proving something. And I feel like that's always been the case. To his father. To his father and maybe to the world.

Yeah, because like it was, because the first half of the movie where he's just like soaking up Cohen, like his dad was in trouble and they didn't look like they were gonna get out. And he meets Roy Cohen and who's this, you know, this monster of a lawyer, and he seeks his help on behalf of his father in a way,

and then Cohen just takes him, he realizes that he's, I think what I'm getting at is he was unformed. He might have had all the personality attributes, but he didn't know how to actualize. Well, that's what I think one of the things that the movie explores. Exactly that. What came first, the chicken or the egg, right?

Are we talking about like, is there something there that was always there? Yeah. That kind of ended up being at the wrong time, at the wrong place, you know? Yeah. And then this is what you get. But it does feel like, look, he was trying,

he was circling that Lake Club, he was circling Upper East Side, he was really trying to kind of cut into Manhattan. And Roy really opened the doors in a lot of ways. Well, yeah, and the shift that you make as a character, you know, once he becomes, you know, the guy, the beginning of the guy that we know, and he detaches from Cone for whatever reason because he's taken in what he's learned from him, and also, I guess, with the... What was that famous pastor that he followed? Pete Slauson Oh, yeah.

Pete Slauson The positive thinking guy. Pete Slauson Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. I forget his name. He wrote the book. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, but your turn as a character was very decisive. Well, yeah, I think it was a really difficult,

intricate, you know, kind of job to try to map out, right, this evolution into what we see you know, kind of job to try to map out, right? This evolution into what we see today and to do it in a way that feels authentic and earned rather than trying to play into anything like humor or relying too much into what you know. But I knew I had to land at some point with it, and that was extensive conversations with Ali Abbasi, the director, in terms of, well,

where in the scene do we see this? Where do we have a little bit more of this? A little bit more of that. Because again, there has to be enough recognizability of the guy, but then if you're like 10% to the right, almost too much, then you lose the audience, or if you're too under, then they don't recognize the guy.

So it was always a balance. And of course, you know, I went into this with everybody saying, you're making a mistake, you're alienating half the country. These are people in Hollywood that are telling me this, that like are... In terms of taking the role taking the role cast directors saying don't you know? Why we need another truck movie? This is gonna be a disaster. You don't look like him all this stuff and and

So it was a it was an interesting mental exercise to kind of not deal with that but in a way a lot of what I was dealing with seemed fitting towards maybe what he seems to be dealing with. In terms of sense of self? In terms of what probably... I feel like there's a lot going on in that head, actually. Yes. I think there's a lot going on in that head of his.

You know, a lot more than maybe he admits or he puts forward. Yeah. But I think there's... And so any internal struggle that I was having going into this was probably going to work for me anyway. Oh, interesting. Because there are, it seems to be in this style of movie

where what you're dealing with is a kind of narrative and visual poetic portrait of a guy. Like even the Priscilla movie or that Jackie O movie, narrative and visual poetic portrait of a guy. Even the Priscilla movie or that Jackie O movie, it's not so much about the facts or the history, but the director and the writers making choices of pieces of information that are going to define this character. But it's not necessarily,

I assume that that dinner in Florida with Colin didn't happen in real life Well, yeah, there was some of course. This is not a document right exactly And it's not even a biopic in the standard way, right? You know, it's a period in time that was the defining period in time for What was the beginning of what we know of this historical figure now? I mean in a way it's Star Wars In a way, it's Star Wars. Yeah. In a way, it's Darth Vader.

Yeah. You know, in a way, it's all those things. It's the same code, you know, David O. Russell referred to it as like the Samurai Code or whatever. It's the same code of, you know, between men, right? Which is, here's the student that overcomes the teacher. Right. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that scene is like

There's a couple of scenes. I thought were were were profound which is you know when he is You know finally actually having human emotions about the death of his brother And he spoke a lot about it though. He actually spoke a lot. It's the most, he keeps repeating what he said, but it's the most he's ever spoken about his family has been in regards to his brother. Because it devastated him on some level and he's framed it as you know a warning right of why he needs to be trained. You know what an interview he did where he speaks a lot candidly, you know who he speaks

to? Who? Connie Chung. Oh yeah? No kidding. Weirdly. Well but he opens up, I think it was in the early, it was probably like early 90s or late 80s, it's on YouTube and she interviews him and he talks a lot about,

and he actually starts to go into the whole, oh, do you feel guilty about this? Do you feel you had some role into it? Maybe you have helped him, you have guided him. And he kind of opens up a little bit about it. So clearly there was some degree of reflection. I mean, some way you played it with his, with those emotions almost being alien to him.

And like he in that moment with Ivana, couldn't stop them, but also did not want to be comforted, did not want to be touched. Did not want to be. Because he's weak, because that would be weak. And I think that's the whole thing here. It seemed to me that there was a real strong kind of lesson being taught in that household, maybe.

About weakness. About weakness and about emotion in itself and emotion actually being sort of an obstacle towards you getting what you want. Yeah. And that's what's fascinating about narcissists and sociopaths, I'm talking generally now. Yeah.

Even, you know, it's like, it's the fact that they can detach in a way that maybe you and I can't. Right. Right? And empathy is not really, is not really that important. Or maybe not engaged. I mean, empathy is something you have to nurture, generally speaking, you know, and sort of sit with it. You know, it's not necessarily, certainly in a character like him,

something that they're born with or sort of honor. Of course. I mean, I keep saying, do you ever read that book about malignant narcissism? No. I mean, it's interesting because it talks about, again, that something so traumatic has to happen when you're in childhood that like your defense mechanism

in order for you to survive, because you can't process the emotions at the time, because you're too young, is to invent a bigger ego version of yourself that acts as a protector and steps in and basically pushes you, so you suppress all of that. Right, right, right. And if that can you so you suppress all of that. All right, right, right.

And if that can carry somebody until the end of time. But we- Did you read that in preparation? I read that for something else a few years ago when I played a cannibal. Yeah. But I did revisit it for this. Yeah, because like there are moments in it, like that moment in the bed I found to be, you know,

revealing and humanizing in a strange way. Because I think that's sort of the challenge, is that you gotta play it honestly. Do you not think that Donald Trump has cried in his life? I bet he cried, I bet he could have cried last week. Sure, but- He wouldn't want you in my eyes to know that, but I bet he cries all the time.

Well, yeah, I had a father who was narcissistic and they do cry, but it's usually an internal loop of, it's not in relation to anything but something internal. You know what I mean? Like they're not weeping at movies. No. You know, it's something childish and weird. Well, it's something that catches up, right?

And it's like, it's probably something that happens, like we in the movie were exploring, which is it's a situation where he, for a moment, it catches him by surprise and he can't control it. And I would imagine that's probably happening. Yeah, oh, I'm sure, yeah. And that scene where he finally cuts Kong loose and says, you're the fucking devil.

Like that was an interesting scene out on the street, after he knew that Roy was sick and he probably had AIDS, but this idea, and then he just co-opted everything that Roy taught him as his own, but the devil calling the devil a devil, it's kind of an interesting moment. Yeah, and that was all improvised. I mean, a lot of that scene was improvised, you know,

the slap and everything. And we actually had shot things where I got physical with him after, which didn't end up in the movie. I mean, we, you know, Jeremy and I really, and I really respect Jeremy. I loved him as a partner. And I think we pushed each other to the best of our abilities. And we were both trying to be as committed

to this as possible. But a lot of that came out of improvising. Oh really, the director let you just go. He let us do that a lot, actually. The beginning of the Trump Tower scene with Ed Koch, that was improvised. I mean, there were moments all throughout, which was another piece of the research that we were doing.

I felt like both Jeremy and I kind of, in a weird way, got like a PhD in the time period and sort of the facts about one another. So where New York was at? Where it was at, who was the mayor, who was the pitcher for the Mets, you know, like everything so that you would have this arsenal to bring to the scene in case you went there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was a really exciting but nerve-racking experience because I've never worked like that. And then the camera would always shift, so it would always be moving, and that's why, I mean, the way they edited it was incredible. But you were always on your toes, and then Ollie would go and tell Jeremy something

in his ear that I wouldn't hear and tell me something else in my ear. And then we'd go off and face each other. And that's great. So that, a lot of that came out of that kind of way of working. Wow. And it was, and it was exciting.

Um, but, but I think at that moment, it's a little bit like, here's the, he's saying to Roy, as I took it, Hey buddy, we don't fucking choose to be human beings, it's a little bit like, here's the, he's saying to Roy as I took it, hey buddy, we don't fucking choose to be human beings when it's convenient. Let's just be honest about what this is. You're a fucking devil and so am I. I mean like, own your side of the street.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. Well that was interesting he chose, and I don't really know what the story with the real Roy at that point, after he got sick, that there was a humanity coming up from him that was different than what he was when he was younger. And Trump was sort of going the opposite direction.

Well, the thing about these guys, honestly, and this is one thing that Jeremy and I talked a lot about, was there was, there's, it's like, there's this tremendous sense of loyalty to both of them. I mean, they really cared about, I mean, look at him even now, right? It's like, you're there for me, I'm fucking there for you, and this is like, right?

That's a bit mafia. Yeah. But I think Roy, for instance, really loved his friends. He loved company and loved his people. and the people that were there for him He was going to die for yeah, and that's what again. It's it's just not black and white Yeah, I mean, I mean there are sometimes Do you ever I think about work a lot in this situation because life sometimes you've got Good people that are obviously capable of terrible things,

sometimes awful people can do one good thing in a moment. Yeah, right, that's true, yeah. It doesn't define them and sort of like excuse them or exonerate them, but it's complicated. And I thought the choices that the writer and the director made about these points in his life, specifically the dynamic with his father, his relationship with diet pills,

the relationship with Ivana, the way that ends. Well, it's tragic, because you can see that she was a massive part of his life. First of all, he cared about her till the end of time, he really didn't want to admit. And she was there at the beginning. And I think that, you know, to some extent, it seems once she got pretty popular, you know, she was out.

Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was a great movie that, you know, really explored some, you know, not as like this document or a documentary, but as a character study, it was powerful. I think that was the goal of the movie. I mean, I know it's the timing of it, which again, as much as people think it was planned,

was not planned, I mean, we really did luck out because a couple months ago, didn't even know this thing was gonna come out. But it was always about, certainly on our part, like not the politics, but really going to the center of the character of what is this character? What is this person? And also what is the American dream

and what does it do to somebody? What is this thing in America that we're so obsessed with the hero complex?. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Got to win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got to get over the line. And when is it enough, you know?

Yeah. And were you, how much time between that movie and A Different Man? Oh, well, so we tried, we started, we tried starting the Trump movie a few times and we couldn't. It was tough to get the financing. And then A Different Man started happening before the Trump movie a few times, and we couldn't. It was tough to get the financing. And then a different man started happening before the Trump movie. So I did that one actually first in 22.

And then we were going to do the Trump movie at the winter of 22, and then it didn't happen. And then I was going to do the Marvel movie, and then the strike happened, and then it actually ended up flipping. So when you read a script like, because you have this, it's sort of a luxury to have this Marvel job,

and then be able to do these smaller movies. So when you read something like A Different Man, what makes you take that role? Because it's a very odd movie. It is, but it was such a different movie, like you said, and I think sometimes, I mean, now I've embraced fear more than I when I was younger. I look for things that I don't quite know my way into, and I look for things that also feel, are asking or, you know, trying to express something

and that's important or asking an important question. With a different man, similarly, again, there's a real reflection of the time we're in in terms of how I think you and I started this conversation, which is we're in this world now where we're not encouraged to be different. We're seemingly more encouraged to just follow the herd ahead of you

because that's what's okay and you don't wanna bring attention to yourself. You don't wanna have a different opinion. You don't wanna have the backlash or whatever. It's like, but all we need to, like the one important thing we have to do is to preserve that authentic self.

Right. And here's a movie that is challenging that in such a creative way and going out of its way not only to reshape how we see disabled and disfigured people, but also just, you know, not trying to sweet talk or wrap it all up in a pretty bow at the end of the movie about in life, you know, you can make a mistake and you can suffer from that mistake for the rest of your life if the consequence is lying to yourself

and abandoning who you are. Yeah, and it's sort of interesting the turn of you being the guy who had the disfigurement and then like, you know, doing what you would think anybody in that position would want to do, which was not be that guy anymore and having the opportunity to take a chance and get rid of this disfigurement. And then when you do, you become almost sort of like, not a boring character, but just a regular guy who wants to erase all that part of his life.

And even in light of the one person that was kind to you, who you were, I think, in love with as that character, and then the entire turn of the movie, which I don't wanna really spoil anything for everybody, but a real dude with that disfigurement sort of becomes the focus of the movie. And your character, who his character is based on in what becomes a play, and then your struggle to figure out who you are

and not being able to own who you originally were, because it's very, it's complicated, it's bordering on sci-fi, it's not quite horror, it's a little bit of a comedy, but it's really an investigation or a sort of kind of a, of self, right? Of what is important and what is love and what is, you know, who we are? Yeah, and the chasing of that next thing, right?

It's like we spend our lives now, like just consistently looking at other people. I mean, you're seeing them through filters, you're seeing them through, they're giving you the best highlight reel. And you're just walking away with that feeling like your own life is missing something and whatever. And then you go there, I mean, the guy goes there, right?

To where he thinks will inevitably be that chance. And it actually ends up robbing him of the thing that made him different. And, you know, I've spoken about this a little bit, like, but I want to, do you ever listen to that American Life podcast? It's not in a long time. Yeah, it's been a minute.

But there was this woman I met, Elna Baker, who talked about. Why know her? She was, I think like 200 something pounds. Oh, okay. Yeah. Really heavy and, and ended up losing all this weight and kind of, you know, suddenly she was

walking down the street and every guy's looking at her and girl and attention. And, and, and she sort of kind of went a little bit, sort of lost herself in the process. Yeah. Yeah. Because finally the, the freedom to be able to live like quote unquote, all of us. Yeah. yeah. Because finally the freedom to be able to live like, quote unquote, all of us, was there,

but it went to such a point that she ended up having an identity crisis because not only did she get addicted to just the dopamine of, you know, this attraction that she had never felt before. Right. But then she found herself missing the old kid that was the heavier kid, and actually sometimes even missing,

walking down the street and the looks that she was getting, the sort of like snarly looks that she was getting from people, because she was like, at least I was different. Now I just look like everybody else. Right, interesting. Yeah, so in general, when you take a role, like, you know, you're signed on,

and now, you know, you've read the script, you've taken the role, what do you do first? Well, I think, I think you read it, you know, I think there's a, you have to read the script a few times and pay attention to what's coming up, and you have to find whatever is in there in you, I guess. And, and, and, and it's, it doesn't happen overnight. I think, I think, I think, uh, you kind of just keep, uh, for me, I keep

reading it again and again until stuff starts to come alive in certain ways. And I go, oh, oh, I get that. I understand that in some way. Or here's something that's totally, I don't know, and I need to kind of go and learn about. Right, right. But every single one is different. I mean, sometimes you get something

and you immediately, you know your way in. And other times it's like, fuck, like with this one, I was like, I don't know how the fuck I'm gonna do this. I mean, and, and, and, but, and then you don't, you know, until you get the prosthetics, until you get certain pieces, then that's when star, you know, stuff starts coming alive. Sure, sure.

But I think, I always think like every character has one emotional need, a massive sort of need at the core that needs, that they're trying to express in some way. And whether that's to be loved or whether that's to be the most powerful person in the world, whether that's to be, you know, noticed, heard. And that, there's that, that core emotional need drives a lot of everything else. Yes, right.

That's wild. So this is a, it's exciting time. It's an exciting time for you, that's for sure. Well. These two movies are out. Yeah. And they're so different. It's exciting that people are, are watching them.

I think I've certainly, I'm sure you've been there too. It's like sometimes you can kill yourself for something and unfortunately it doesn't get seen. Yeah, nobody sees it, yeah, yeah. And then you, you know, it's like. Yeah, I always think about Ben Foster in that he did that Holocaust fighter movie. Oh man, that looked brutal. It was brutal, but I don't know many people who saw it

and that guy like lost a million pounds and fucking lived that fucking guy's life. And it brutal. But I don't know many people who saw it, and that guy like lost a million pounds and fucking lived that fucking guy's life. And it's like, I guess you really have to, you know, at a certain point, you know, be engaged in the work enough to have that be enough on some level. It's this funny thing

that I'm still trying to figure out, right? It's this sort of thing about being creative and then creating this thing, putting it out there, and then suddenly it becomes no longer yours, right? And then everybody comes in and throws their opinion. Like, how much do we need the opinion of someone else about what you've just created, right? Sometimes, I don't know, even like I wonder about the Picasso's of the world. I mean, those guys didn't just knock every single paint.

Now, every single paint, they could have drawn a happy face and it's like whatever. But at the time, not everything is perfect, right? And you'll fail, and then there's gotta be something in you in terms of like bringing you back to wanting to do that without the approval or without the need for the. That's kinda hard too, you know, because the ego

of the creative person is a pretty needy thing. I know, the ego is the fucking devil. I know, I know. All you can do is like, with age eventually it gets a little beat up and things. Do you find, I mean a lot of people talk about this, like do you find like it's also the personal life, right? That you have to have to keep yourself grounded

and in the world. Yeah, you know, it's a little tricky, that whole part of it. But I do know that as I get older, things that seem so menacing and important, you start to look at it like, what the fuck was I thinking? You know, like years of energy, you know,

wasted on this, you know, pattern of thinking. Yeah. That is ultimately meaningless. Yeah, and it all goes by so quickly. It does, it's starting to seem that way. Like at some point, I just got older than everybody else. I don't know when that happened. Oh my God.

You still got some time. Yeah, but you know, losing a loved one, it's interesting, right? I'm 42 now. I mean, you just, death becomes a different idea. Oh, it do, yeah. You know, and I don't know if it's, obviously it's meant to be,

with all of the stuff that we're trying to live forever with, that we're trying to do to live forever, there's a point, right, to sort of, cause you're aware of time or what you wanna do, or leave behind, I guess, I don't know. No, totally, and then yeah, you get to a certain age, people die. And then all of a sudden, you know, you have to sort of,

it's impossible not to take life into account then. And if you're very busy and you're driven, you know, to achieve or to create or to whatever, your life is sort of in this thing of doing the thing. And then when someone you love passes, all of a sudden, it's sort of like, well, am I living life? It becomes a very tricky thing, then.

I find sometimes there's, I think also in America, there's such an emphasis on, you know, make sure you're living your best life and capitalizing on time and all this shit. Yeah, like, and do you ever see this movie, Perfect Days, the women, Wenders movie? No, I didn't watch that yet. But you know of it, yeah.

I love that movie, man. I mean, it's about a guy who cleans bathrooms. But like, you know, like you watch him live life and you go, I feel this guy is actually more in the moment than I am. Sure, yeah. And I wonder about kind of like if it's all backwards, if it really is about kind of like if it's all backwards, if it really is about kind of,

it is just meant to be lived like with what it is. It's not always about the improvement. Yeah, or about the achievement. Exactly. Well, maybe we'll figure it out. It's good talking to you though. This is amazing. Thank you so much.

I'm such a fan. Oh, I appreciate it. Thanks for doing it There you go good guy a different man is in theaters now and the apprentice opens in theaters this Friday hang out a minute Hey folks, this is mental illness awareness Week and mental health needs have never been greater. That's why CAMH, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health, is rising to the challenge. As someone who struggled with addiction, I know there's no way to get through it alone. CAMH is improving treatment and inspiring hope with life-saving research discoveries, building better mental

health care for everyone to ensure no one is left behind. This mental illness awareness week, your donation to CAMH will be matched. Visit camh.ca slash wtf to double your impact. Monopoly Double Play is back at McDonald's and it's easy to get into the win. First, you peel on pack. This is me winning a universal theme park vacation! Then, again in app. And me, in a new Chevrolet Equinox RS. There are millions of prizes, including a chance to win cash every minute in the app. Cash doesn't make any noise, but it's awesome!

Get into the game with Monopoly Double Play at McDonald's. While supplies last, one in five chances to win GamePuse prizes at outset. Chances to win Double Play prizes based on time of code entry and draw prizes based on number of entries in each draw. See rules in app. Hey, for full Marin listeners, we've got an old treat for you. We started rolling out the episodes of the Mark and Tom show with me and Tom Sharpling.

We did the first one way back in 2012. When you're in like entertainment, you, it's like you're on your own. And it's like, it's not, there's no company structure that's just like, hey, you know how things work at this company is that this is how the year plays out and just fit into that structure. It's like you wake up in the morning, it's just like,

oh my God, what? It's all on me. It's on, it's like on me. It's on it's like I could hit new file on Word and then it'll say zero words on this thing written and it's on me to every day Figure out what I gotta do on this thing. It's like What do I do like? There like, that part of it keeps me from feeling present in things.

The fact that I always have to think about just the next thing and the thing after the thing and the thing after the thing. It's just like, I try to go for these walks and I just leave my cell phone behind. And I just like, yeah, I'll listen to music and I'll just like, and I just try to just do that. And it's just like, and I'm trying to just do that and it's just like,

and I'm trying to just reclaim it like, like a half hour at a time. Like. In the walks, are you not, you mean you shut off all that shit? Like I don't bring my phone with me. And I mean, but do you wonder who's calling? It's hard, sometimes I'm just kinda like,

you just get, cause it's that motion, that thing. You know, does your leg ever feel like, you feel the vibration and you don't even have your phone in your pocket? Yeah, your phantom phone. What's going on with that? It's like, that's a new thing for the human condition. Is the idea like, oh yeah, I felt my upper thigh vibrate. Oh, my phone's not in my pocket.

What is that? Like how, that's like a sickness. We'll keep adding those Mark and Tom episodes to the full Marin feed. To subscribe, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. Once again, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy.

October is for wearing masks, but sometimes we hide more than we want. Take off the mask with BetterHelp. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched up with a therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com, learn more, and save 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com. And a reminder before we go,

this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's a loop thing I did and I repeated it, but that doesn't matter. Eventually, eventually I'll figure it all out. But I like this groove. ["Acast"] ["Humour Lives"] Boomer lives, monkey and La Fonda, cat angels everywhere.