WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1581 - Langston Kerman

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

Langston Kerman named his new Netflix comedy special Bad Poetry, harkening back to his time as a high school teacher. But as someone with an MFA in poetry, Langston knows enough about the dividing line between the bad and the good in both poetry and comedy, two things which are forever connected in his life. Langston and Marc talk about his days as a teacher, as well as his time in Boston, his trip to China with students, the best comedy clubs in America, and why John Mulaney directed his special. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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While supplies last, one in five chances to win GamePuse prizes at outset, chances to win DoublePlay prizes based on time of code entry and draw prizes based on number of entries in each draw. See rules in app. up. This is my podcast. How's it going with you, man? I gotta reel it in. I gotta focus. Holy shit. I'm about to start shooting a movie. And I guess people don't really talk about this. Why would they?

How many people do you know that are gonna start shooting a movie and are reflecting about it? I mean, it's just work you assume actors do, but it's a big deal for me and I'm paralyzed with the fear I'm not going to be able to pull it off. That's the amazing thing about staying active and creative well into your 40s, 50s, and 60s is that at some point you're thinking, hey man, this confidence thing is just gonna lock in.

It's gonna be a time where I'm just sorta like, yeah man, this is gonna be fun. I don't know if I've ever said that about anything. Loving what you do, that's one thing, but having fun is another. Is it though, aren't you supposed to, if you love what you do, isn't the assumption that like, yeah, this is to, if you love what you do, isn't the assumption that like,

yeah, this is fun, this is my life. The things that I do that I love, or maybe it's just that I'm kind of good at, I don't always think they're, I don't, I just don't know how much I think they're gonna be fun. I think really my whole sort of goal is to get through it and feel like I did okay.

God damn it, if I don't change things up soon, I'm not gonna know about this fun thing or this love thing. I'm running out of time. Today on the show, I'm gonna talk to Langston Kerman He's a comedian And I didn't know him, but that's not unusual. I'm already two or three generations beyond whatever's happening now beyond the 100,000 new comedians

But I got a text from John Mulaney. He's like, hey, you should check out my buddy Langston Kerman's stuff. And I'm like, all right, I will. And then I find out that I turned on the special and Mulaney had directed it and I'm like, ah, all right.

Well, this is a thing he did as well. Then I watched it again and I'm like, all right, let's talk to this guy, Kerman. Some of these bits seem to be rooted in some interesting stuff. So we had a good chat. We had a nice time. Also, I'll be a Dynasty typewriter in Los Angeles on Saturday, October 26th. The rest of my tour dates are scheduled for next year. You can go to WTFPod.com slash tour to see all of them. And yeah, so I'm just getting ready to lock into this shooting process where I got to play the lead and figure out. It's just interesting because look, I'm no brilliant actor.

I think I'm getting better at it. But again, it's like I'm not like I'm having a great time. I'm like, I really want to do well. That's what it is. You want to do well. It's hard, I'm not like, I'm having a great time. I'm like, I really wanna do well. That's what it is. You wanna do well.

It's hard to have fun when all you're thinking about is pulling it off, doing well, nailing it, getting into it, losing yourself. Yeah, I mean, I gotta jump out of a plane or jump off a cliff or something, you know with with a chute and Something I think the word fortuitous. Is it fortuitous? I Read Al Pacino's book Al Pacino's got a memoir coming out. I'm not sure when it's out soon because I

fucking talked to Al Pacino I Read the whole book and he's talking about acting and he's talking about his life and how he handles things and What he went through to to sort of honor his creative process and I got to be honest with you quite helpful It's not a book about about it's not an acting Teaching book but he writes about his life and there's a couple tidbits in there where you know And also the character who who Al is Actually helped me with the guy that I'm trying to be in my mind and there are a lot of nuggets in there where you know and also the character who who Al is actually helped me with the guy that I'm trying to be in my mind and there are a lot of

nuggets in there and I just feel like well this happened for a reason and I don't always feel that way you don't want to get too far into that rabbit hole of things happening for a reason because it's probably crazy and it's probably coincidence but it's nice it's's nice when things line up enough for you to think that like, yep, someone's watching over me. Yeah, yeah, today maybe. And it's probably not, but it's a nice feeling to have. But yeah, I was able to glean a lot

from Al's experience in life. And that said, fucking Al Pacino was at my house the other day, in the afternoon. Yeah, I'm waiting around, I'm loaded up in my head, I got Al Pacino on the brain. I've had Al Pacino on the brain for, you know, most of my life, but here he is, just walking up the sidewalk to my house. Al Pacino, what a fucking sweet guy. What an exciting day. I had fun with that one. I just had fun because I'm... fuck man, I'm talking to Al Pacino. Back in 2015, we brought Simply Safe on as a sponsor, but more importantly, that's when

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Oh, did you see that movie? The substance? Oh my God. I can't recommend that enough. I hope I can get Demi Moore in here. And I'd like to talk to the director, but look, you know, I, I was curious about it because you know, I like Cronenberg enough. I'm certainly a Kubrick fan and David Lynch, and those seem to be, you know,

some of the influences in this movie. But, like, I'm not, I wouldn't call myself a horror guy, you know, but Kit is a horror person. And we're watching that movie, man. And, yeah, it's rough, but I mean, it's a movie. Do you know, people are like, oh my God, I don't know if I can watch it. It's fake, you know?

But go ahead and believe it, because that's the effect you want. But I mean, it's not really happening. But what an incredible sort of kind of gutsy exploration of gutsy exploration of vanity, of aging, of the pressure and pressures that women put on themselves when confronted by those things. It's about show business, it's about culture, but the basic premise of being able to inject something and split into two selves, one being your younger, beautiful self

that gets to go out and do things for a week and then come back and wake your half-dead ass up and send you out. I mean, the conceit of it is science fiction and horror, and you quickly believe it because the kind of spectacle and grotesqueness of the story is so engaging. But I'll tell you, man, if you don't see it

and try to see it on a big screen, you're denying yourself a very life-changing experience as far as a movie goes. Because you watch this movie, and it's broken into three acts. And by the end of the second act, that's like two hours in, you're like, oh my God, how much more can we take?

What else is gonna happen here? And then that third act, you're like, oh my God, what the fuck, this is fucking crazy genius. It's, She How Cronenberg's Cronenberg. And if you're not a horror nerd, but you know, you kind of, you know, Cronenberg's your limit. This is taking Cronenberg to just amping it up, man. And the performances are great,

and it is a metaphor for something, and it is a conceit, and it is, you know, I would say, you know, science fiction in a way, but horror in another way, but I mean, but Kit was, when it was over, she was like, oh, my God, instant classic. Because it's all these points of references, filmic references to horror movies,

which I don't really know, but to the directors I mentioned before, to Cronenberg and Kubrick and Lynch. It just, I'm recommending the movie. You know, it reminds me of, there's just very few Movies that that that kind of blow your mind with their

Audacity. Yeah, go see that fucking thing Go see it in a theater Just sit there with a bunch of other people and be like what the fuck is happening Alright, so look Langston Kerman there with a bunch of other people and be like, what the fuck is happening? All right. So look, um, Langston Kerman, Chicago guy. I've talked to a few people from Chicago lately and, uh, you know, kids from Chicago, I gotta spend some time in Chicago. I think that's a sign.

It's a, it's actually a great city, but this is an interesting conversation because once it's sort of unfolded, you know, the kind of journey to doing standup and what you go through creatively if you're a creative person and the other avenues you take or what you think your life is gonna be, it's always kind of surprising.

And it was good to talk to this guy. The special that he's got out there is called Bad Poetry. And it's called that for a reason. It's on Netflix. It's directed by John Mulaney. It was shot in Chicago at that place. Is it called the Green Mill? I think that classic old Al Capone bar.

It's shot there for a reason too. But the thing about doing this show, my show is, and the thing that makes it fun, yes, fun and interesting is that I really don't know, and the thing that makes it fun, yes, fun, and interesting is that I really don't know, because of the way I do it, how anything's going to unfold in here on the mics. And this was great. It was great to talk to this guy.

So this is me and Langston Kerman. Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help, we see someone struggling with addiction. Our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help or get help at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the government of Canada. Hey folks, let your imagination soar by visiting audible.ca. Audible has the best selection of audio books without exception, along with popular podcasts

and exclusive Audible originals, all in one easy app. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, basically any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive change in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being. Enjoy audible anytime while you're doing other things. Household chores, exercising, on the road, commuting, you name it. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine, without needing to set aside extra time.

You might want to check out some audiobooks by our recent guests, like I Curse You With Joy by Tiffany Hes or Sonic Life by Thurston Moore. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30 day audible trial and your first audio book is free. Visit audible.ca. So do you, who are you? Honestly, that's a fair question. If we want to start there, we're happy to do it. Where did you come from? I, uh, you live here? I am in, I'm in like a mid city.

Oh, really? Yeah. How long have you lived here? Seven years. Really? Yeah. See, it's one of those things where, you know, all of a sudden, I'll tell you what happens.

So I get a text from John Mulaney. Yeah, my new dad. Yeah, like your new dad. And that carries a little weight sometimes. So like, not always, but you know, I know John. And he says, you gotta look at this guy, but I know John, and he says, you gotta look at this guy, and I'm like, all right, and then it turns out he directed it,

and I'd never seen you before, which is not, that's nothing to say. I don't take it personally, no, that's okay. I'm an old man, you youngsters come up all the time, and all of a sudden I'm like, where the fuck has that guy been? Yeah. But it was one of those things where it was with Millennium, like, well, I'm not gonna let him muscle me around.

Sure, sure, sure. I'm gonna take a little time. Exactly. I'll watch it when I'm ready, John. Yeah, it was that kind of thing. I, yeah, no, I... But it's funny, it's like, how did, like, I don't know what John's doing,

but he's doing it at a very high level. Sure. Whatever, you know, he, you know, he is, he's really got an angle on how to work this business. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. Well, yeah, I mean, and he's very funny, and he's a smart guy, but the point is, there is that level of those guys where you're like,

I don't know, I guess he's at that level, and then he's, like, I don't know, I guess he's at that level. And then he's like, he's chose you. He's done some directing of his own shit, right? I mean, he did the, did he do that, the kid show thing, the Netflix thing, the lunch. Yeah, the lunch sack lunch. Yeah, I think that was all his. Yeah.

So how does he find you? Uh, weirdly, John and I, because we didn't have much of a relationship, but he really, really fucked with a show that me and a few of my friends made called Bust Down. That was Sam Jay, Chris Redd, and Jack Knight. I've talked to both of them. And Jack Knight passed. Oh yeah, I remember that show.

I saw that show. Okay, well then you saw me, Mark. OK, there you go. We solved the problem. I don't know how many of those episodes I watched. It was like everyone worked as a break room thing, right? Yeah, we all worked in the back of a casino. That's right.

OK. And yeah, they only made six episodes. So we couldn't have seen more than six. So that was your big break. That, I wouldn't call it a big break. No, nobody watched it. And that's why they only. That, I wouldn't call it a big break. No, nobody watched it, and that's why they only made six of them. Was it HBO?

Peacock. Peacock. Early generation. Early Peacock. Peacock. Right, it was an odd show. I agree to disagree. I loved it.

No, no, no. I'm not saying it was bad. Odd is good. Yeah, no, we... And it's good for, it makes sense why Mulaney, you know, because he likes stuff that is unique. We took really big swings, I think, for the six that they made. And Mulaney just loved it a lot.

And in a weird way, had reached out to the four of us, sort of wanting the possibility of NA season two coming on as our Danny DeVito fifth, a la Always Sunny. Oh, like Mulaney was going to do that? Yeah, so it would be me, Sam Jay, Chris Red, Jack Knight, coming on is our Danny DeVito fifth, a la Always Sunny. Oh, like, Malaney was gonna do that? Yeah, so it'd be me, Sam Jay, Chris Red, Jack Knight, and John Malaney hanging out. Right, right.

And then Peacock said, no, no, no, we want nothing to do with anything you guys are doing anymore. Was it really that? I mean, what was the experience? Because, like, everything's in transition, and I don't know how show business works anymore. Yeah. But, you know, Peacock was sort transition, and I don't know how show business works anymore. Yeah. But, you know, Peacock was sort of, uh, that was at,

at that time, that was, um, the, the streamer that NBC Universal was doing, or whoever owns that. Yeah, sure. Right? And that was, so it was only on the streamer. We were early generation Peacock. I think they very much still saw themselves as an extension of NBC. Yeah.

And we were going on there saying nigga and bitch. Yeah, right. And covering Jack and Cum. It was all chaos. Right. And I think that did not sit well with what they thought they were building. OK.

So they opted not to make more of that. OK. But John thankfully just really, really loved it and was into it in a way that a dude like him probably shouldn't be, but he is. Oh, that's great. With that, it sort of became a thing of like,

hey man, I know we're not gonna be able to make more of that, but I'm working on this. If there's any world where you'd be interested in producing more, please. So he's got a production company. He had built a production company and I reached out and he just was very, he's got a production company. He had built a production company, and I reached out, and he just was very, he's just been huge. Wanted to be in the Langston Kerman business.

I hope so, yeah. Seems like it. Yeah. But it's interesting because out of that, because Sam Jay, I wonder what, because Sam Jay, I think, is an important comic. And I don't know if she's completely taken on that responsibility.

And I think I'm kind of happy in some ways that she has to really focus on that and not be distracted in a way with other projects, because I think she's got a very courageous voice. Yeah, I don't love when my friends become important, so I hope she never turns that way. I think there's the- Well, I'd like her comedy to be seen by more people.

I'd like that too. I think what an unbelievably funny person, but I do think there becomes this weird game in comedy where suddenly we become responsible for representing a community or representing the voice of the unheard. Yeah, whatever it is. Sure.

It's like, I don't give a fuck about that. Let her just keep being as fun as she is. Well, oddly, you know, in that particular situation, that voice, the voice you're talking about rarely becomes like megastars. Sure. So, it becomes sort of a representation of something that does require, and it's good someone's talking. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you know what I mean? So, but she was doing some stuff I saw at the comedy store a few weeks ago, I was like, holy shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, she's funny, man. I've been doing this so long that when you have those moments where you're like, holy shit.

Yeah. It's good, right? It's nice when somebody reminds you that this is a game. Well, yeah, well, that or it's not a game. It's you can be raw and truthful and like, you know, you're seeing something in a club or it's like, no one's seeing this on TV. Yeah. No, you know, this is, and your stuff too is like, you know, pretty ballsy, you know, I mean, there, there are some things that you take shots at

that I think are pretty good. Okay, hell yeah. But so wait, so now, are you a Chicago guy? I'm from Chicago originally, Oak Park, Illinois, yeah. All right. I started there, but I only did like nine months and then moved to Boston. Okay, so wait, so you grew up in Chicago.

Grew up in Chicago. And what, a big family? Kind of, it's a big disjointed family. I'm the oldest of five, but none of us have the same like set of parents. Does that make sense? Yeah. It's a real. Yeah, I mean, I watched a special.

Apparently your mom, you know, got a lot of work done. Yeah, my dad too. Yeah, oh, both sides? Yeah, my mom, I talk about my mom, a lot of work done. Yeah, my dad too. Yeah, on both sides? Yeah, I talk about my mom, but my mom's four marriages, my dad's three, so they're- Really? Yeah. That's crazy, Davey.

People complain about being the child of divorce, but I'm the child of the most divorces, so whatever. In that, you get a lot of siblings, you get a choice of siblings. I imagine that once you have step siblings like that and you get a certain distance from it, you can kind of choose which ones you want to choice of siblings. I imagine that once you have step siblings like that and you get a certain distance from it, you can kind of choose which ones you want to hang out with. Yeah, so I actually don't have any step siblings.

I just have weird half. Oh, that's what I mean, half brothers, sisters. Yeah, and so like, it is, it's complicated because I'm the oldest by far. I'm 10 years older than the next in line. And you're not even that old, so you got real kids around still. Yeah, there's a 14 year old out there.

Wow. I'm 23 years older than the next, you know, the, the baby of the family. Uh huh. So it's a weird combination of both being like, I don't know what we are, but also I have a responsibility to help you grow into a human being. And I, how do I do that? You have that responsibility with siblings and kid now. Yeah, I have two kids.

Yeah. How the fuck, how old are you? I'm 37. He just did it. You just, you feel like you needed to do that. I nutted in a lady and I said, let's keep going. Really? I got none, you know, but I'm like,

I'm emotionally broken. Sure. So when you're in Chicago, what do you start out doing? I mean, did you start doing comedy? Because you like to act, obviously. Yeah, I mean, I started in stand-up. That's where it started. Yeah, I started doing the open mics.

And like what year? How old were you? Did you go to college? Or what did you do? I went to college. I graduated college in 2009. The height of, you know, the market crash. And so I sort of realized that like, oh, we're, I followed the rules.

You know what I mean? Like I went to school, I got good grades. I went to a good college. Which one? University of Michigan. Oh yeah. And the, you know, there's no job at the end of that. I have an English degree, so that's what I mean, there's no job at the end of that. What'd you study?

An English degree, so that's not me. Well, there's no job anyway. I did the same thing. I mean, I have this feeling that, about English majors, that it was something to focus on and you knew that it was going to broaden your horizons intellectually. But I think that if you sign up for an English degree,

either you don't know what the fuck you want to do, or you just want to be smarter. Right. Like, there's no, like, if you get into college and you're gonna, I'm gonna do English, it's not, you're not thinking about jobs. No, but I really liked poetry. Yeah.

And so that was gonna be my shit. Me too. And that pays less than we get. No, there's no, there's no money in it. But I mean, by that time, there was sort of that slam poetry thing that was happening. Deaf poetry jam was huge for me. So I was like, oh, I'll be a poet. I'll get on deaf poetry jam.

Did you? No, never, never once. But performatively, it's just one step away from standup. It's almost like you you know, you have an appreciation of words, but not necessarily the appreciation of funny. But you do have the appreciation of impact and delivering it. So on some levels, there are some,

I knew a guy who was into that. You know, he started as a comic, then made a racket out of poetry, then came back to comedy, and then got into trouble somehow. And I don't know, I think as a comic, then, you know, made a racket out of poetry, then came back to comedy and then, you know, got into trouble somehow. Pete Slauson Sure. Pete Slauson And I don't know, I think he's, he's with Jesus now. Do you know who I'm talking about? Pete Slauson I don't.

Pete Slauson All right. So, so Jesus got him. Pete Slauson Sure. Pete Slauson Through many struggles. So, he's into the old poetry. Pete Slauson I gotcha. Pete Slauson The Bible poetry. Pete Slauson The original poem. Pete Slauson Yeah. But there is something about the compulsion to do that because when I was in college,

there was none of that. The closest you got to what became slam poetry was Allen Ginsberg and the way he kind of worked rhythmically, but it wasn't a thing. But I wrote, I don't talk about it a lot, because there's something, there's a little more swagger to slam poetry, even though you mock it in your special. But to just write like, you know, like, well, I really like William Carlos Williams

and E.E. Cummings and kind of working some shit out. I don't know. To me, the poetry of yesteryear felt cooler. Like, who are you guys? Like, well, in poetry, I read a lot of, I don't read anything anymore. Sharon Olds was really big for me. Terrence Hayes is really big for me.

Louise Glick was one of my professors. Oh, really? And she passed last year, and that was, you know, crazy. But yeah, I loved, I fell in love with the literary word, but previous to that, poetry sort of became a nice segue into comedy for all the reasons you're saying of like, impact on stage and learning to like manipulate words and to make people laugh. But it's interesting though, right, with poetry, like, there's, there's something about it, you know, I, I don't know, there's something about it, you know,

I don't know that I was ever very good, but like there are certain poems that I wrote back in the day where I'm like, that was pretty good. And then like, you know, there's really no one to tell you it's good and you never believe them. And there's no way to put it out in the world to get validated in a way unless you want to stay in academics, right? And I think slam poetry is a little different. But there was something about,

when you focus on playing with words for poetry, there's a real kind of, once you nail it, if you start working with a group of words and you're not really clear what you're trying to say, it becomes almost like this kind of, what's the word I want? Like an elevating math problem, right? There's a puzzle quality to it. That's right.

And sort of like when you fuck with the rhythm and you fuck with the words, even you don't know what's going to come out of that. And then when something does, you're like, wow, that kind of made me feel a certain way. Yeah. And it's very rewarding. It is. I think it's also what kind of made me feel a certain way. Yeah. And it's very rewarding.

It is. I think it's also what kind of scared me out of it to some extent. It's certainly the performance element of it because I found myself landing that feeling you're talking about where you're like, holy shit, I didn't even know that's what I was trying to say. Right.

And then when you are a performance poet, the ask is to then go replicate that feeling for an audience. Make it happen. And sometimes you don't feel that feeling anymore because you got it out on the page. Well, yeah. And also, like to expect an audience to appreciate it in a live situation. Yeah.

Like, it seems like, and I'm not diminishing it, but like it seems like slam poetry is pretty upfront. Like, you know, you can make your metaphors and you can do your turns of phrases, but they gotta be attached to sort of something that's tethered to reality and to your experience. Yeah. Whereas like if you're just writing, you know,

a kind of a theory a bit of business that's, you know, kind of driven by your feelings on the page, you know, sometimes that feeling, it'd be hard to replicate out loud. There's a reason T.S. Elliott wasn't reading that shit in front of people. And now here, let's give it up, make some noise for the wasteland. T.S. Elliott, the wasteland.

Yeah, some of that stuff just to your point wasn't going to play the same in person. T.S. Elliott, the dryeland. Yeah, some of that stuff just to your point wasn't gonna play the same in person. T.S. Eliot, the dry salvagees. Here we go. Yeah, that's true. But so obviously you at some point realized when you had that amazing feeling of putting some words together that there's no living in this.

Well, I win, I'm stupid enough, I got a master's degree and I got's no living in this. Well, I win, I'm stupid enough, I got a master's degree and I got an MFA in poetry. So your options were teach or teach? Yeah, I was gonna teach, that was my plan, and I did. I taught high school for a few years. That's different. Full time for a few years.

You could have stayed in higher learning. But then when would we talk? When would you and I get to meet you? When I ran out of guests entirely. Okay. You just start going to local schools. Somebody, my writer friend would have said, you know, this guy, I don't know if you know him,

he's doing some amazing poetry. You know what? He's actually the funniest teacher we have here. You're gonna wanna talk to him. So you got an MFA in poetry and then you go teach high school kids? Yeah, I taught high school. I mean, I know in the special, what's the special called again?

Bad poetry. Bad poetry, yeah. That, you know, you really talk about your experience about dealing with kids of that age. But I mean, walking into that, I mean, were you, did you see yourself as like, well, I'm gonna be of service? I mean, why would you teach? I mean, it just seems so daunting.

My mom taught. I had a teacher in high school who was very, a man named Peter Kahn, who was very important to me and had left a big impact in terms of me finding poetry and a sense of self and shit. And so I thought, you know, I'm gonna mirror these people who meant something to me and they seem like good people and I'm gonna try to be that. Well, they blew your mind.

Yeah, I think so. Gave you a sense of definition. I had a guy, an English teacher in high school who did that, Dr. Hayes, and he was an odd little man. And he encouraged me to do poetry, but I did one of these poems, you know, like I've always been a sort of like a too much information guy.

And I just remember writing this poem about, you know, high school and about virginity and it was like really kind of like raw shit. And I remember reading it out loud and you know, and what I was trying to say definitely connected, but it was so cringy, I could never look at anybody. Sure. That odd little man was like, you gotta chill out.

Yeah, yeah. That was very interesting. Very honest. But I guess I do hold him somewhat in that place where he did spark something in me creatively. And I think a worse teacher would have told you not to be that honest. Sure.

You know what I mean? And then that discourages what ultimately becomes the voice that you create as a standup. Yeah, I never really thought about its impact on me, but you're a sophomore in high school and you put yourself out there like that and you already feel uncomfortable. And you've just made this bit of expression

that amplifies your discomfort. It's sort of like, yeah, the comedy is the next step. I either become very self-serious or I stop taking any of this seriously. Well, what's weird about poetry too is like, my biggest fear in life is embarrassment, right? And it's a weird thing that I chose comedy to sort of kind of like, you know,

if I'm gonna embarrass myself, I wanna have complete control of it. I'm gonna get in front of this right away. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have that? Yeah. I mean, I'm having it constantly. I'm having it right now. I think that so much of what ultimately transitioned me

into comedy was feeling embarrassed about doing poetry. And then at the open mics of our college, I figured out that I could host those and talk shit in between other people's. The poetry of the mics? Yeah, so we would have this open mic for all the students, and everybody would perform,

and I liked being able to host it because then I could just read one poem and talk shit between everybody else's poems. And that sort of like eventually, and it took a little while, I saw. Is this after teaching or during teaching? This is before any of that. This is like truly in college just fucking around.

But you didn't do comedy yet? I didn't do comedy yet. So you had that feeling of that, because the difference between experiencing a personal revelation through writing a poem on paper and then getting a laugh is different. It's very different. But you know, but it is sort of the same,

because if I think about your comedy or I think about what I'm doing, if you can make somebody look at something differently then they already did or have that experience of like I never thought of that or that's funny because That is that is a poetry thing. Yeah, I think it the whole the whole goal is to be provocative And it's just whether I'm provoking you to reflect or provoking you to laugh. Or see something differently. Yeah.

And the hope is to merge all of that in some kind of way, you know what I mean? So what did, I know you talk about it a bit in the special, but I mean, it seems like if you were teaching high school as your first gig out of college, that that must've been the final straw. It didn't help, yeah. To drive you to stand up because you talked about,

the thing is we're all pretty sensitive people. Comics, we seek to kill it. We're constantly pretending we're not. Right, well that's the whole job in a way. And I think you eventually at least professionally get a tougher skin about it. But I don't know that you get any less sensitive. But I can't imagine and you talk about it fairly specifically the if you're going into it with an open heart and you're teaching high school, how the fuck are you going to

live through that? Yeah, I mean, I truly I did six months as the assistant to that teacher I was talking about back home at my high school. And then was so sort of like miserable in that went and started doing open mics at like a local bar. But what did, was this guy, your mentor, when he saw you were miserable, did you have conversations? Did he tell you like miserable, did you have conversations? Did he tell you like, you can't take this person?

Yeah, I mean, you know. They're kids. They were constant sort of like reminders that this is a job and this is part of it and you're working. Yeah, it's not about you. Yeah, exactly. We're here for a greater good and all that shit. But look, I'm a comedian the way you are. We have egos and desires that live in the back of our head that can't be satiated by helping you get a job at Best Buy.

Yeah, yeah, sure. I got other plans. But were you performing for the class? Mm-mm. Not really? No, I've done everything I can to keep my students away from anything that ultimately would have been Comedy. Yeah, but like give them shit. So what were you teaching?

I thought I taught poetry for for a year back in Chicago Then I got into my MFA program in Boston and taught high school English in Boston in Boston to yeah So we met in Boston, you're not gonna remember this at all, but we actually English in Boston. In Boston. Another two, yeah. So. We met in Boston. You're not gonna remember this at all, but we actually met in Boston. I did the Boston Comedy Festival the year. Oh, when I was at the Sunreal Theater? Yeah, and they honored you.

Right. They gave me a little thing. Yeah, and you were backstage and you shook all the finalist's hands. And you were one of them? I was one of them. And you were very like indifferent about the whole experience, both the honoring and the shaking hands of us,

who were happy to meet you. It was weird because I don't even know what year that was. What year was it? So I'm sure I was not in a good place. 2011 or 2012. Yeah, so all of a sudden, I was sort of, because of the podcast, all of a sudden, a recognizable character. Sure. And I was sort of, because of the podcast, all of a sudden a recognizable character.

Sure. And I lived in Tumberville before, when it was like just fucking wheezing little village. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Before it became like this cool hip place to move to. It's crazy, man. I was there, like, it was all just old style.

And I was there when Redbones opened. Okay. And I was sort sort of like what is this? This is like barbecue every twice a week and I got to know the people that own the place and they seem to Barbecue twice a week. That's a noble purpose So that guy Rob and Karen that the people that ran that place they were just trying to you know Bring all the different barbecues to get honoring each region. See like it was like I'm gonna fucking eat there all the different barbecues to get honoring each region. So you're like, I'm going to fucking eat there all the time. And now I have plaque in my heart. But I imagine teaching though, like if you get one or two kids that are really interested,

it's got to be rewarding. It's huge. Yeah. That's all you're going to get, right? You hope for more. Yeah. But I do think that in the grand scheme of things, there, there remain a bunch of kids that I taught and worked with that like stay in contact, have found themselves sort of

working in the arts. Oh yeah. In ways that I didn't expect them to. And that, that feels affirming in a cool way. Oh yeah, totally. And I'm excited for them. Yeah. But yeah, I don't, I don't know that you know how many you can actually pull out of a classroom,

especially when it's sometimes 30 kids that you're just hoping to. Connect something to get them into a different place than just staying who they are in high school for the rest of their life. Or just make a plan, you know what I mean? Even if you don't solve the problem, just truly start to be like,

oh, I think maybe in a couple of years, I might try this. Yeah, give them a little bit of a voice, a little confidence in something. All right, so you taught, so you went, oh, you did your MFA in Boston. Yeah. Where? BU. I went to BU.

Okay, hell yeah. We weren't there at the same time. Definitely not. I was an undergrad there for five years. Oh, no. Like it was 81, 82, I was out in Milton at Curry College. And then from 82 to 86, I was in BU. Did you live in student housing?

No, because I was an adult by that point. So I was like living in Brighton and taking the bus in. How far up? Where on Com Ave or Beacon? I was like in Brighton and taking the bus in. How far up? Where? On Com Ave or Beacon? I was near Com Ave. Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't that bad.

I had no family in Boston, no connection there. And so I ended up living in a hell house where truly the first dude that I ended up living with ended up getting arrested as like a sex pest. Like fully went to prison, and had like become infamous in Boston as what they were coining the loose cannon, because he would break into women's homes late at night and jerk off on their faces while they were sleeping.

Oh my God. And I found out via the news, you know what I mean? I truly was living with this dude. And that was the guy down the hall? Just paying rent to him, signing checks, having no idea that this was... What was his alias life? What did you see him as? He said that he was a day trader and would carry literally a Mac like your Mac from room

to room being like, I'm going to like work out the kitchen today and carry a big ass computer between rooms. So he was a psychopath at home, but not jerking off on my face kind of thing. Oh God. That's profoundly disturbing. How long did you live there? You were there when it happened? I was there when he went missing and there were three of us in the apartment. And then the other roommate was like, yo, he's missing.

We should be concerned. Called the police and the police were like, he's not missing. We got him. And then the police won't tell you why they have people, and say you have to go to the courthouse, and we went to the courthouse, and I found out that I didn't know his real name,

that we had been writing checks to a person. That didn't even exist. So he was a full on sociopath. Yeah, exactly, and then in Googling his real name, discovered this laundry list of criminal history. Oh my God. And you're just going to graduate school? Yeah, I'm going to grad school, writing poems with my friends.

What was the graduate program of BU? Who were your professors? Louise Glick. Oh yeah. Robert Penske, who remains a weird sort of like advocate for what I'm doing, despite being the celebrated brilliant poet he is. who remains a weird sort of like advocate for what I'm doing, despite being, you know, the celebrated brilliant poet he is, he still will be like, oh, watch this thing.

And it's fucking weird that he does that. Well, they're all jealous. You think that the life in academia is a thrill a minute, they all get mired in bureaucracy and jaded and cynical. What an interesting twist on that. I took it solely as him being just celebrating what I'm doing. You're like, no, he's seething with jealousy.

I don't know if he's seething, but I think there is a kind of leveling off of that academic life, where if anybody that you were a student or anything is doing anything, getting the word out and being creative, you're like happy, but there's got to be party that's sort of like, I never did that. Yeah. I mean, well, what I will say is that Pinsky does a fair amount of work with jazz.

He does live performances where he'll like, he has a band and he'll incorporate jazz into it. And I think he is taken with performance in a way that makes comedy sort of like a natural, like, attractive thing to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're in grad, you finished the MFA, you got your master's? Yeah, I got my master's and then I started teaching high school. But when do you start doing comedy? I had started doing comedy already,

so I was doing comedy at night while, do you start doing comedy? I had started doing comedy already. So I was doing comedy at night while- In Chicago you started? But you were like, oh, you said nine months. Yeah, and then- Doing open mics and shit? Doing open mics. But comedy open mics.

Yeah, and then when I moved to Boston, like the comedy studio was still a thing. Rick? Yeah, Rick Jenkins. And- I think it's back. I don't know where it is. But I think I got an email from him saying-

I think it's complicated. Yeah,'t know where it is. I think I got an email from him. I think it's complicated. Yeah, I have no idea what happened. Yeah, I mean, I knew Jenkins when I started. Like he was around when I started in Boston. Yeah. So I was talking to some people from Emerson. Emerson College has an Emerson College here now. Yeah.

On Sunset. I didn't know that. It's a big beautiful place and I didn't realize what it was. I was asked to speak at a class yesterday. But what the Emerson College here now. Yeah. On Sunset. I didn't know that. It's a big, beautiful place. And I didn't realize what it was. I was asked to speak at a class yesterday. But what the Emerson here is, it's really just an extension of the Emerson in Boston for students to come here for a semester. It's almost like an extension thing.

You do your semester in LA. You study abroad in Los Angeles. That's right. And it's like it's an industry school in a way. Sure. Yeah. So that was kind of interesting because I was talking to those kids and one of their teachers is a comic I started with.

Oh no. Yeah. They bring up the teacher and I'm like, Mike Bent. I know Mike Bent. Is that an uncomfortable thing or are you like, oh no. No, I was happy that he's working. Oh, that's great. He used to do a whole gate. It was like, I think it was the child magician.

Mike bent, he was this weird little guy, but he's very kind of endearing and he'd do these, you know, kind of inspired odd magic tricks. I love that. But it was like a whole character. But when I told them that I started with him, they're like, no way. So I think I gave him some props, really. Oh, he's doing good now.

Well, now these kids are going to gonna go back like you were a real guy turns out you're the cool professor we've been looking for we never thought where we so you're doing the studio and who was around I mean who you got you got a class Sam Sam was around she's the the tail end of my time in Boston Josh Gondelman was around when I was in Boston. They were all coming off like, you know, Sam is like, you know, had those, there was that generation that had sort of a real experience with Patrice. Yeah.

Like, I think Patrice had a big impact on Sam. Yeah. I mean, I think she knew him in a much more formative era than, than certainly I did by the time I was in Boston. She's the most like him I know, I've seen. Just creating these things, talking about these ideas in a very honest way that are just sort of like, fuck. And the digging and continuing to dig, even as people are being like, please stop.

Yeah, it's great. It's smart. So you're doing what you're just doing straight standup. Yeah, just doing stand Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. Yeah, it's smart. So you're doing what you're just doing, straight stand up. Yeah, just doing stand up, Knicks comedy. You know, all the saddest places you remember from Boston. Well, when I was there, it was a pretty vital comedy town. So Knicks, when I was there, there was like five Knicks. Whoa.

Dude, there was a period there when Knicks was opening in Knicks everywhere. There was the Knicks in Saugus at the Kowloon. That was probably there when you were there. Yeah, they were still there. Yeah, they tried one in Framingham. They tried one in Worcester, I think. I think there was a Nix in Marblehead for two minutes.

Sure. They've continued to try to, I think, expand at various points, but I don't know that it... That downtown room when it was full on, it was big. There was like, they made the upstairs room into a room. And then there was, I think there was literally like two, it was at least two, but maybe three rooms within that structure. Yeah.

So you could kind of do like six shows in a night. No, they still had that by the time I was there, but it wasn't six shows a night. It was like, oh, every once in a while, we're gonna have like teens come to this downstairs room and you'll perform at 12 in the afternoon for a bunch of camp kids. It was crazy back in the day, man.

No, Boston, the legend of Boston sounds spectacular. The experience of being a comic in there. At that time? Yeah, early, you know, aughts felt. So you were just doing mics at the downtown room, the Knicks downtown? Yeah, just shows, mics, early, you know, aughts felt. So you were just doing mics at the downtown room, the Knicks downtown? Yeah, just shows, mics, whatever, headlining, or not headlining,

but featuring and hosting. It was like a 20 minute spot, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you get some time and you learn to country beat. Well, there used to be all these guys. There was like, there was a crew in Boston. It was a regional thing where these guys could make a living just by working the region.

Sure. And I don't know, there's not a lot of them around anymore. The Steve a living just by working the region. Sure. And I don't know, there's not a lot of them around anymore. The Steve Sweeney's of the world were, yeah, they could feed their... Don Gavin. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like a lot of them passed away that were around when I was younger. But there were some real characters around, dude. Absolutely.

So, how long are you doing that, hammering it away? In Boston for three years, and then I moved to New York and was there for five. So you did the whole thing? Yeah, I hit every major market I could. And in Boston, were you doing one-nighters and shit? I do it. Yeah, I do that shit.

Did they have them, where you'd go out for like, do you ever do Mike Clark's rooms? Do you ever do giggles? Of course. I did everything that anybody would let me do. I would drive three hours. You did it. To go to like Hartford Connect. For 150 bucks.

Yeah, to go bomb and you know, something that they were saying was going to be a thing that never became a thing. So they were still around. Like who was booking those? Like Clark and was the Connection still booking stuff? The Connection didn't exist by the time that I- Dick Doherty? Dick Doherty was still around.

And yeah, I remember- Langston. Langston. I remember. I'll never forget it. I remember that Boston Comedy Night, at Boston Comedy Festival Night. I did the finals.

I didn't win. And I remember specifically Dick coming up to all of us afterwards and he said, ah, that was great, you did good. And he came up to me and he said, you didn't seem quite yourself tonight. And I'll never fucking forgive him for the feeling that that left inside of me. It's forever. He did the same to me. Yeah, I was driving For the feeling that that left inside of me, it's forever. He did the same to me? Yeah. Yeah, I was driving him to a gig. It was me and Dick and some other guy in the backseat.

And he goes, Mark, you're insecure. That's your problem, you're insecure. And I'm like, what? Yeah, I know, man. That's why I'm doing this. All I remember about Dick Doherty, I remember a few things. Well, he was a big act down on the Cape.

He used to be like the guy when they had happy hours. Like he would sing. He was a big thing. I remember he had a guitar. Yes. That's the legend. I never saw Dick perform because by the time I was doing it, he was just running the vault in his other rooms and shit.

Yeah. Well, there was a thing. What happened was they outlawed happy hours at some point. So there was a big infusion of guitar acts into the local comedy scene. Which is always what you want. Sure. You want more guitar acts.

But he was like supposedly a big deal down the Cape. And I remember I went to pick him up at his house once and he had this huge portrait of himself in the house. A younger Dick Doherty. I love that. Yeah, and he had, just kind of this big, kind of bold looking Irish guy with his mustache. He was a real star, real regional star.

Was he, and I mean, was he handsome? Was this like a- Well, yeah, he had that kind of like that, kind of like a burly, you know, tough Irish guy look. Yeah, he was a rustic looking man despite the... Totally. He had that long ass gray hair. Yeah.

Yeah, I remember being in a car with him and we were driving down, I think it was like Newbury for some reason, and he saw Steve Tyler. He was like, stop the car, stop the car! And he got out and he hugged Steve Tyler and they were having a nice talk and I'm like, oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, look at this. Well, it was a recovery thing, you know. Because he became, I think, a very sober mentor

to a lot of people. I got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're doing the one-nighters. Yeah, I'm doing everything that Boston will offer you. And then you go to New York? I go to New York. And like, where did you live down there?

I was in Bed-Stuy pretty much the whole time. And what were the rooms you were doing there? I was in Bed-Stuy pretty much the whole time. And what were the rooms you were doing there? I was, Brooklyn had really started to build a beautiful alt scene. So Hannibal's room? Yeah, the knitting factory was real big and like just any of the sort of like alt-y Brooklyn. Did Rami have a room too?

Rami never had a room while I was there. Like who was booking the rooms? Cause like that thing that Eugene Merman was doing, that was gone. His festival? Not the festival. Well, that was where, at the bell house? Yeah, he would have his...

Right. Well, he used to do a weekly show in the city. I can never remember the name of him and Bobby Tisdale and bring them up or something. I can't remember what it was, but that was over. That was long gone by the time I got there. So it was mostly Brooklyn, huh? It was mostly Brooklyn. Well, that's interesting because that means in in some ways, you're kind of a hybrid.

You started in the trenches, and then the alt thing became your home. Yeah, I think I felt just more comfortable figuring out a way to make this feel kind of egalitarian and not the- But also to say what you wanna say. I mean, I don't know necessarily that you could do what you wanna say, I mean, I don't know necessarily that you could do

what you were doing at The Cellar. The act that I was doing? Yeah. Like even like the special? Well, no, I mean, like if you're kind of exploring different ideas that take a little time to get out, some of those rooms in New York are a little, you really gotta punch it out.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, The Cellar's great now, but I think at the time I probably wasn't ready for it. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I mean, the seller's great now, but I think at the time, I probably wasn't ready for it. You know what I mean? And it used to be a pretty hard line of like, you had to earn the seller. Yeah, tough room. And I wanted to earn it the way that you have to earn it. Did you?

I have now, yeah. Oh, you can work over there? Yeah, I go work the seller now, but like at the time, it was very much like. Oh yeah, you gotta, when they Yeah, I go work the cellar now, but at the time it was very much like... Oh yeah, you gotta... When they walk in and see those guys in the back, the table. I was terrified of that table. I listened to enough of this podcast to know that that table was gonna eat me alive.

It was heavy. Yeah. Was it Patrice? Was he alive when you were coming up still? Patrice, by the time I was in New York, I think had, if he hadn't passed, he only had been, another year or two kind of thing. Yeah, because that was, if he was at the table, you're gonna take a hit.

Yeah, no, I was terrified. The idea of, and Patrice I think is probably my favorite, if not one of my favorites of all time. And the idea of even sitting across from him terrified me more than anything I could imagine. Oh my God, yeah, you couldn't get a word in and you were gonna definitely get your ass handed to you. So how long did you stay in New York?

I was in New York for almost five years. And were you working? Were you starting to go on the road and stuff? I was in New York working part-time in education, doing like after school programming and like Kaplan. Do you remember the Kaplan like test prep people? I was one of those guys. You taught kids how to take their tests?

How to take the SAT and shit. But this like, it sounds to me like, you know, you got your hearts in it. You weren't just doing that for money. Well there was no money. So there was something about you that felt like you needed to be an educator. I just knew that I had a limited skill set. And I also- So if you were a chef, you would have been cooking somewhere. Yeah.

That was the thing. I didn't know what else I could be doing. I'm going to use this degree. The only jobs it has to offer me. Substitute teaching? No, I was teaching full time. In New York? In New York, I was doing after school programming.

There was a place in Red Hook that specialized in basically helping kids finish their homework and stay. Red Hook has the largest projects in the country. The goal was to keep the kids from ending up on the streets. So they come to this place and you work with them and it was called the red hook initiative. Was that rewarding? Yeah, it was cool.

There were, there were a lot of, there were a lot of kids who I thought benefited from what that program was. But by that point, I knew I wanted to be a standup. Yeah. Yeah. So it was just a question of how quickly can I get out of this, despite how. Where did you teach in Boston? Uh, in high park, there, there was a, there's a school called the Academy of the

Pacific Rim that specializes in taking the mostly Caribbean kids of that, that community and teaching them, uh, uh, Chinese studies. Huh. So they all like learn Mandarin. Really? They, they follow sort of like Chinese traditions in the school, but I was an English teacher. Caribbean kids?

Yeah. A hundred percent. A lot of Haitian kids just learn Mandarin. Yeah. That's fucking crazy. I took them to China, everything. I took them to China. Everything. You took them to China? Hell yeah. What? Yeah. It was cool. Hyde park. That's how, is that like at the edge of Mattapan?

It's West side. Yeah. It's like, um, you, you take the orange line all the way to the end and you take a bus in a different direction essentially. And yeah. So you took how many kids to China? I took, what were how many kids to China? I took, what were they, 10 kids to China? And you'd never been? Maybe not how they're teaching. No, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.

Where'd you go? We spent two weeks in Beijing. Really? And then we took a 17 hour train ride to Xi'an, and one of the more horrifying train rides I've ever experienced. You don't feel like there's a lot of safety protocols in place with the things in China.

I was in Beijing for like a week because I did a gig there. Beijing and, I think not Hong Kong, I think maybe it was Beijing and Hong Kong I think. But I found it fascinating. It was like going to another fucking planet, dude. Yeah. So it's me and 10 black children.

You know what I mean? Mostly there were probably six black kids and four white kids. But one of them in particular was like six, four. And so like we literally could not walk the streets without people stopping this kid to take pictures with him or touch him because they just had never could not walk the streets without people stopping this kid to take pictures with him or touch him because they just had never seen that species of human before.

It did not exist for them. And so we had to plan for extra time because they're going to grab him up. So we got to- What do you think of that? We got to adjust. I mean, he was 14, so so he's like this is fucking awesome I'm crazy man man around here. I saw more, you know kind of hand Or feet driven vehicles in Beijing than I ever seen in my life every kind of bicycle contraption

People are getting haircuts on the street. Mm-hmm. It was crazy to me. They would they I remember Crossing the street with them was like one of the most terrifying things we could do because there are no regulations. It was crazy. I almost died on some fucking thing there. We went to visit the Great Wall, you know, and they had, you know, there was, it's kind of phenomenal. You know, these seven wonders are, there's seven wonders for a reason. They make the list for a reason. Did you go to the wall? Yeah.

It's crazy. I thought it would be chiller than it is, and it's so hard. You are ascending into the heavens as you walk up that fucking wall. And then when you get on a piece of it, you just look at the span of it, it's like nuts. But there was some sort of concession, like where we were, there was some sort of like,

it was like a bobsled type of ride just on tracks and you just sit in this little thing and you go down these tracks and you control the speed with these handles. And I had no idea, there was no one, there was no guard rails. There was nothing. And I got on this thing and I'm just, I'm having a hard time controlling it. I'm getting, and I'm getting towards the bottom of it. And there are these Chinese people going, yo, go, go. And I'm thinking like, they're going, yeah. They're not cheering you on.

No, they're saying stop. So I just went and plow into all these other things. I knocked a family into the goddamn dirt. Like it was amazing. I didn't get hurt more, but I was like, there is nobody in charge here. No. What was the train like? Was it that kind of thing?

So my most terrifying moment inside the train was because there were black children, we had separated the girls and the boys into their sleeper cars. But the sleeper cars don't have doors. It's just wide open. And so people, because they had not seen black people before, are walking past and would just come and sit on our beds

and like look at us. They're not engaging, they're not like asking questions. They would just look and stare at us for a while and then they'd get up and walk away. But then in the middle of the night, while like some of the girls are sleeping, I hear a bunch of them scream out because there's just a man standing in the room

watching them sleep because he's like, I ain't never seen this sleep before. It wasn't like your roommate. No. It was just him going, what is this? And he's like, I'm going to check on this real quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he walked away.

Some guys told me about this. Yeah. They said there's some black people over here to check on this real quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he walked away. Some guys told me about this. They said there's some black people over here. I didn't believe them, but I thought. That's crazy. Did you go to the Forbidden City and stuff? No, we went to. Do you go to Tiananmen Square? Check that out, Tiananmen Square.

No. I mean, some of what the trip was was paired with our sister school. And so a lot of it was driven through like activities inside the school, keeping them in school, but letting them sort of engage with a different- And did the kids love it? They loved it.

It was fantastic. Yeah. That's great. I think it was life-changing for them. For me, honestly, you know what I mean? Of course. I was eating fucking scorpion on the street and starfish. You don't know what they're selling as pets or food.

Yeah. You go, you're walking down the street, you're like, what is this? They'd literally put scorpion on a stick that's still alive and grill it for 10 seconds and then hand it to you and it's still twitching. No. And you were supposed to eat it.

How was it? It tastes like sunflower seeds. It's not that bad. Yeah. If you can get past the physical requirements. I used to do a whole bit about when you walk through Chinatown, or certainly in China, at grocery type of situations, you're like, what is that? Yeah.

Is that a bug? Is it a rock? Is it from the ocean? What the fuck? And then I used to do this bit about how like, when you've been a civilization that long, you're going to get around to eating everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we haven't tried that over there yet.

Exactly, exactly. Let's give that a nibble. Yeah, well, that's a great experience, man. Yeah, it was really cool. I've been very lucky to trick people into letting me travel places. Oh, it's great. And well, comedy, you can certainly do that.

Yeah. So you're in New York and then what gets you out here? My then girlfriend, who is now my wife, lived in Baltimore at the time. Yeah. And we were doing long distance and didn't, it ultimately came down to a choice, right, of like either you moved to New York or,

I don't know, we're gonna be able to keep doing this. She didn't wanna live in New York. New York is hard, she's a lawyer. She had a life that was simpler. And she was in Baltimore? And she was in Baltimore. And so LA became a nice concession for. Oh, you agreed on it.

Yeah, it was like, all right, well, you don't wanna live in New York, then I have two places I can be, and Baltimore ain't one of them. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not moving to fucking Baltimore with you. Step sideways. Mm-mm. Sideways? Yeah. Well, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not moving to fucking Baltimore with you. Step sideways.

Mm-mm. Sideways? Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know. It seems like a city. Name one place you can do comedy consistently in Baltimore. You know what I mean? I don't know.

How far is it from DC? It's like 45 to an hour, depending on, you know. A lot of guys came from DC. DC's great. Yeah. But Baltimore ain't it, so I can't win it. I hear it's kind of rough, hour depending on. A lot of guys came from DC. DC's great. Yeah. But Baltimore ain't it, so I can win. I hear it's kind of rough too. Yeah.

Baltimore. Her part of it was great. Oh yeah. She grew up there? She, yeah, she grew up there. And this is your wife? Yeah, that's my wife. So you come out here and you got any juice?

Or you're just a guy? No, by the time I came here I'd been on some shit. Like what? Insec insecure, which sort of became like the first thing I wrote for Chris Rock's Oscar team the year that he hosted. Oh, you did. Yeah. Oh, no, he wasn't hosting when he got hit. No, no, no.

Yeah. I'd love to have written that year. That'd be whatever that joke was. I would love to take responsibility. It wasn't even that great a joke. No, it's... It was all because, you know, Will was out of his fucking mind.

Yeah, there was a weird history, I think. Yeah, yeah. That was fucking crazy, dude. Truly one of the funniest group chat days I've ever had in my life. Oh my God. Unbelievable. So you wrote for Chris, for the Oscars out here.

And are you friends with Chris now? No, I wouldn't say we're friends, but I don't think there's any malice. He's one of those guys where I'll get the, occasionally a random text over nothing once a year. Yeah. I'm like, hey, Chris Rock. No, I don't even get those texts.

So congratulations to you. I know, I mean, he was, I'm very grateful that he would even allow me to be in that room, but I didn't get anything off. Who was with you? Michelle Wolf, she was there. Scott Ackerman was a good buddy there. Really?

Yeah, who I had done a pilot with, but also was just a dude who kind of was also at the end of the table riffing with him and being silly. Um, Namesh Patel was there. He's a funny guy. Yeah, he and I sort of booked it the same day because Chris had come out to a show that Namesh hosted. In New York?

In New York. Yeah. And I did a set and then Namesh did a set after, or it might have been the other way or whatever. Either way, Chris saw both of us and was like, yeah, both those. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. I did a set and then the mesh did a set after or it might've been the other way or either way. Chris saw both of us and was like, yeah, both those. Yeah, yeah. Oh wow. So yeah, it was a great Rodney Barnes

who I think is brilliant and amazing. Yeah, I know that guy. I can't picture him. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he made a fucking winning time. He's made, he was responsible for a lot of boondocks. He was a brilliant, brilliant comic. That's how I knew the name.

And a lot of people from the old Chris Rock show were a part of it, you know what I mean? It was a great collection, and I was a child who had not yet figured out how to make my hero laugh. So, it didn't work. It didn't work, but you got the experience. I got the experience, exactly. Yeah, and then so when you come out here,

what's a, how big was your part on Insecure? I was in the first season pretty heavy and then tapering off to that. That's great, that was a funny show. It did some work for me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I've just been working ever since. So putting together the special,

did you tour it or what'd you do? I toured it as much as I could. Comedy clubs? Clubs, I'm still doing clubs. I like clubs. I like frankly more intimate rooms. Me too. I'm just not.

Me too. I can go and open for people in theaters and it's always fun. Who do you open for? Mulaney. Yeah. A lot. Yeah.

You know, there's some other people. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of Mulaney. But like, even that, I really fucking love a low ceiling and an audience that's too close to me. Yeah, it's the best. Like, you know, like the ComedyWorks. It's great.

I just played that one, the ComedyWorks South, for the first time, and that's fucking great. It's also good. They're both great. Yeah, people always talk about it like it's lesser than. No, I know. People always say, so you're going to go out and do the other room, the suburban room?

I'm like, I don't know. Like, I did the downtown room for years, and then I booked the other one. And I'm like, this is just as good. It's great. It's almost like a little theater. Like, I don't know Wendy over there. I don't know. she must have, it's an inspired design.

Cause both of them have, one has the low ceilings in downtown, but it's tiered as well. And it's like all right on top of you. It's like a mini, like amphitheater. Yeah, I think good clubs that build a suburban room are always fun. Yeah, if they work. The room in the suburbs tends to be a good time.

Now, if it's not a good club and they build a room in the suburbs, it's fucking miserable, but like. Yeah. I don't know about it. Cause I didn't know about Denver, but like, you know, downtown, like downtown Denver is like a shit shows on Friday and Saturday night. I've never seen drunk or stone more stone people except in Scotland. And I, and so I assume like, had doing the other room, you know, people

want to see me, they're gonna come to either one. It's not that far. What are some of the other rooms that you like? I mean, as far as like other clubs I love, I mean, you know, Madison's amazing. The Zanies. Chicago? The old ones? I like the old one, but I really like the zanies. In Chicago? The ones in Chicago. The old ones? I like the old one, but I really like the Rosemont. If we're talking about suburbs.

I never did Rosemont. I never did it. I fuck with Rosemont. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's pretty fun. It's another one where people are like, you're gonna do that one? And it's like, nah, I like that one.

It's good. Will you do Acme? I haven't done it yet, but I'd love to. That's a good room. Yeah. Kind of an old school, it's not low ceiling. It's pretty low, but, that's a good room. Kind of an old school, it's not low ceiling, it's pretty low, but it's always a good room.

It's one of those that's hailed as the ones, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the punchline, I think is- In San Fran? San Fran. That's an interesting one, in the corporate park, but the ceilings are low. The ceilings are low.

The stage is kind of oddly high, but it's good. It is, I think they do an amazing job of still getting the right kind of people in there where they're just like into whatever they chose. Like you ascend those steps and you know you wanted to be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think for whatever reason that works.

It's always wild because it is a great comedy room, but you literally are in the kind of quad of a corporate industrial park. It's like a, it's a corporate park. And you walk up these stairs and it's just, it's down there in the Embarcadero. There's nothing else around. I think there's a restaurant over there now.

I've been there in years, but I definitely did that a lot. And what are you working on now? I, my, you know, I'm writing. I wrote on Everybody's in LA, the show John did. And just writing my own shit and trying to make more. Where you working here mostly? I never see you at the store. I don't love the store.

I'll be honest with you. Why? I don't know. It has a fraternal nature to it that makes me uncomfortable. It used to. Not anymore. And I think it made me. Why aren't you working there? Because that original room is like,

that's your jam, man. When did you go there and decide it's not for you? How long is that? Probably too early in my journey here that now has made me. Was it still kind of like, under the ego of the Rogan crew. Of course.

Well, that's all gone, dude. Yeah, I mean, I've had plenty of conversations and I do go play there. It's not like I'm like anti-store. I'm not, it's not that. But it's one of those things where like, I've done enough emotional work to not wanna have to go hang out and wait my turn.

Oh, that's a nice way to put it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I am NOT desperate and I'm too proud To do what's necessary to work at that fucking place. Hey, we can both say the same thing in different ways. That's nice Well, I mean sure pal talks about having gone there and you know, and he's he saw, you know, comics working the door, he's like, what? Like, I'm not doing that. Yeah, it's a nightmare. I'm a comedian. But I don't think I'm going to have to go work the door,

but I also think I've sort of created a patience around it where, like, if the store wants me to come perform, they know my number and they call me sometimes. And do you know Emily? I know Emily. All right, OK, fine. my number and they call me sometimes. Do you know Emily? I know Emily. All right, okay fine. Fine, I'm not gonna. So what do you do, the improv?

I do the improv a bunch, I do the live record sometimes. I do a lot of the sort of like alt rooms and shit. What's left of those? They're falling day by day. You know what I mean? Like Hot Tub is, is soon to be gone. What, The Virgil? It's not even at The Virgil anymore. It's not permanent records, which has like a bunch of shows that they...

Yeah, I know Lance. Yeah, in the backyard. Yeah, no, they don't do the backyard anymore. They got sound complaints, so they gotta take it inside. In that little room? Yeah, in that little room. And how many's that even seat? 40? 100, maybe. Oh, really?

If you do standing room all the way to the back. Right. Oh, he's still doing it. Oh, they can't do the backyard anymore. Yeah, the Elysian is still like a cool thing. Bar Lubech has a bunch of shows. Bar Lubech still going? Yeah.

That place always felt like a bathroom to me. It still is. There's just something about the tile. I don't know what it is. It's like that weird Russian bathroom to me. It still is. Just something about the tile. I don't know what it is. It's like that weird Russian sort of like, you know what it is? It's a themed bar that didn't finish the job. You know what I mean?

Like they didn't fully commit to the thing. So they're kind of like, I don't, it's got vampire bathroom energy, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do. What's the theme here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you do dynasty too?

I do dynasty. That's good. Yeah. All right. And how's the special doing? Do you know? I don't know. Yeah, they tell you and then you go, okay.

And then they hang up the phone. What do you want? Yeah. Well, it's pretty funny special. Good stories. Thanks, dude. Now, what about all those clips you used of people? Yeah.

And did you have to get releases of people? Men? Yeah. Did you have to get releases on that? Not at all. We talked to, I presented it as, and we should clarify, I was managing my mother-in-law's social, her dating apps. And very often, men would either post and or send videos or voicemails of them basically trying to swoon or impress women.

Old black men. No, most of them, it was a nice mix. Was it? Yeah, it was a good mix of white and black. And the voices you used? Mm-hmm. What, there were three? Yeah, that last dude at the end,

I don't know what the fuck he is, but he... The loved one? He ain't black. It hurt. LAUGHING Uh, but no, it's... I would just sort of, like, be talking to these men and they would have these random voice notes.

And then after a while, I was like, this is too funny not to play with. And then when it came down to the legal conversation, they were like, I don't know, bro. They posted it. So technically, as long as they weren't ones that had been sent to me directly, like in a private message, they were free game. Oh, okay. And so- And you don't say names or nothing.

No. And you haven't heard anything, have you? And they're old. they're not on the internet Screaming and shit. Yeah, you got no but you got no flack for that. No, nobody's nobody's mad at me yet And why'd you pick that place the Green Mill? Yeah, it is the quote-unquote Birthplace of slam poetry. Oh is it this dude Mark dude, Mark Smith, used to go there. It's an iconic bar in Chicago. No, I've been there.

I did a show there. It used to be a radio show there. It used to shoot on Sundays or something. I've done shows there. It's a beautiful venue. It's beautiful. It's like Capone was there, right? Yeah, Capone's big hangout was there.

But this dude, Mark Smith, used to go there, and he wanted to read his poems. And nobody would listen. And so what he figured out was he could get these drunk dudes to participate if he gave them like cards to hold up like numbers, uh, uh, based on the quality of the poem, make it a competition. Oh, so that's what invented it. Yeah.

So he just was getting these drunk dudes to listen to his shit and hold up numbers or yell out numbers of like, that's a seven or whatever the fuck it is. And then that sort of becomes what we now see as like this competitive slam poetry. Oh, that's interesting. So it was, you did it for historical reasons. I was as a child, the place that I wanted to perform at the most.

As a poet. As a poet. Wild. Didn't get to until I told dick jokes and stuff. But it's interesting because I remember they set up another stage, because the stage you're on is literally behind the bar. That's right.

But do they do shows on another stage? Yeah, there's a legitimate sort of traditional stage in front of the room. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we agreed that it was- You gotta do the bar one the bar one's cooler and sexier and why did you open the show like the funny thing is about the beginning when you have the announce you know with

someone bringing you up yeah Mandel very funny comedian Mandel we have but he said this next comment and I'm like would they just how many did they wait out you know like it's your special. And he's saying this next comic. So there was a bit that we had to kill because it didn't make it into, like it didn't make sense for the cut. And also there were gonna be legal ramifications for it. But I based the entire special,

or at least the motivation for the special was based on this movie, Love Jones, which I have a theory that no white person has ever seen Love Jones. And you're gonna prove prove that right right now. I haven't. I knew it. But I will tell you this.

One of my favorite movies is Baby Boy, if I'm going to try to pander to the black guy. Oh, nice. We're related. Yeah. I think it's the greatest movie ever. Listen, I'm a big Tyrese Gibson fan and anything he does, I'm tuned in. On him on that bike, and he's fucking the best. But yeah, I haven't seen yet.

I love the idea of you sitting here watching Baby Boy. I've watched it many times. That's great. I think it's a beautiful, like for me, with movies in general, even with like, like I'm a big fan of like Reservation Dogs, and I champion that show, and he let me be on it. Just, if I can sense an honesty about the representation

of a community of people that I would have no access to in that personal away, I always find it very moving. And I think that, you know, Baby Boy is that. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, it is a, uh... It sometimes gets sort of put in this category of sort of like not Quality films. Yeah, I don't know why and I think it's it's in large part because of the antics of some of the individuals Relating to the film more than it is the actual quality of the film. I think it's a fucking masterpiece I think it's a great movie that it just happens to star a very silly, silly man out in the

world. Who, Tyrese? Yeah, but I think that's a perfectly... I didn't see it as a comic character as much as an emotionally stunted character. I don't think it's meant to be funny, and I think he just happens to be the funniest guy. It's great. And that Ving Rhame stuff, I mean, that shit is just,

I mean, it was like, and maybe I'm just being a dumb white guy, but to me, I felt not unlike his other movies, like Boys in the Hood as well, but this was more like a love of what that community is. Yeah. I think it's less didactic for sure. Like, it's not trying to teach you something as much as it is trying to...

Slice a life, almost. Give you a piece of that thing. That's right. And Boys in the Hood is really trying to, like, show you your responsibility in this thing. Yeah, but Baby Boy, this is what it is. And Snoop is fucking great in it Yeah, he's scary fucking great. You see how

You see how skinny is they're like I'll still I wouldn't fuck with this dude. Hey, you ain't my son Fuck your fort Fucking great. So what's this other movie? So Love Jones, which you've never heard of well now I gotta watch it stars Lorenz Tate and Nia Long. And it's this, it's a movie that really sort of is like the, all the bad stereotypes of what slam poetry and sort of performance poetry are, is kind of a celebration of that. It's Lorenz Tate being this sexy performance poet who falls in love

with this journalist, like, whatever. Yeah. And I wanted to base the entire sort of energy of the special around this film that John Mulaney had not watched and to this day has not watched. Yeah. And so with that, there is a very iconic poem that is read in that special.

Yeah. It's called A Blues for Nina that I had. In the movie. a very iconic poem that is read in that special. It's called A Blues for Nina that I had... In the movie. In the movie. Yeah. And I had Mandel read that poem before the special, and then he throws to me. But in the edit, it was too long. It also featured a dude who it makes no sense to feature when you're starting a special

for yourself. And more importantly, they were very worried that legal was going to be like, hey, you stole the words of a thing that people are going to come back and- So that's why you couldn't put out this next, you couldn't pull that out. Yeah, no, because we wanted that swing. The swing was so cool. Right. But it's sort of a funny way, like, as I noticed it. Like, this is your special,

and this guy's saying, this next guy. I'm like, where are the other guys? Whatever. I don't know. None of this means anything. And what did Mulaney bring to it as a director? I mean, I think- For you. I think there's not a lot you can make up for

in somebody who's been through it that many times and has that much sort of like know-how in terms of being like, do this, don't do that. Did he help you structure the thing? No, I think the material was largely sort of in place by the time we started working together, but his ability to kind of like spot stuff in the room or stuff that like, that traditionally we've seen in specials

that it's just like, hey, let's not waste money on eight cameras, we don't need that. And you don't need the audience shots. You don't need the audience shots. Because in the way that that bar is structured, they're there, enough of them are there. They're present. Yeah, yeah.

And so to be shooting that place that small, there's like, I'm'm very anti-audience shots, but there was no impulse to even do that. Yeah, there was no impulse, and I think we both were in agreement that like that's a distraction, or sort of like this weird satiating the people at home that doesn't need to happen.

But it doesn't even work that way. When it comes right down to it, it was usually just to make cuts. Mm-hmm, yeah. To give you an opportunity to- You did something weird with your arms, somebody gotta move. Yeah, sort of cut to the guy. You know?

Well, great job, man. Thanks, dude. Good talking to you. Yeah. ["The Ripper's Theme"] There you go. See, that was interesting. It's a rare person, myself being one of them, that at some point said, yeah, I'm gonna be a poet.

But look, again, Bad Poetry Langston special is streaming on Netflix. Hang out for a minute. You all heard me talk about my extended stay in Vancouver. The truth is, a lot of people stay in other places for extended periods of time. Maybe you're like me and your job takes you elsewhere. Maybe you relocate for the winter.

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I've done over the history of doing this show. We got, I think the interview with David Lee Roth only because I knew enough about kind of a sensibility about where he comes from. only because I knew enough about, kind of a sensibility about where he comes from and the nature of his version of entertainment. But somehow or another, I was able to keep him on track. And it's a great interview. Perry Farrell, not so much.

Oh yeah, that was difficult. That was really difficult. He's got his wife in there, it was when I was doing it in the house before I set this up, and you know, it was like, it was, you know, it was just, you know, there was a lot going on there that, you know, was, I don't know, he had a lot of big ideas

about what he was gonna be doing, and you know, it was very hard to, you know, he was obfuscating through, you know, kind of this rambling, and he was very hard to, he was obfuscating through kind of this rambling and he was not able to have any self-reflection. It was hard. To get bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin. Just go to the link in the episode description

or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast. Uh, here's some layered guitar thing I'm doing. I feel like I'm just doing my same old riffs and then playing on top of those with my same old riffs, but, uh, Hey, some, some people have been doing that for. 30 years, but you know, to major success and big audiences. So So So So So So So So Who more lives? Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels everywhere