WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1583 - Al Pacino

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

Al Pacino created indelible memories for generations of moviegoers. But while he was writing his own memoir, Sonny Boy, Al kept coming back to mental scenes of his days in the South Bronx, running around the streets with friends, enjoying the small things in life. Al talks with Marc about his growth as an actor from the stage to the screen, his formative friendship with acting teacher Charlie Laughton, and his career realization that he can only perform in something he relates to. They also go deep into Al’s performances in The Godfather, Dog Day Afternoon, and Scarface. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine, without needing to set aside extra time. You might want to check out some audiobooks by our recent guests like I Curse You With Joy by Tiffany Hanisch or Sonic Life by Thurston Moore. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. We're in the midst of a global mental health crisis and although awareness about mental health is growing, there are also significant public needs for care that are going unmet.

That's why CAMH, the Center for Addiction to Mental Health, is rising to the challenge. As someone who struggled with addiction, I know there's no way to get through it alone. CAMH is improving treatment and inspiring hope with life-saving research discoveries, building better mental health care for everyone to ensure no one is left behind. Visit camh.ca slash wtf to hear stories of hope and recovery. Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nick? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How are you? Everything alright? Today's an exciting day because today I talked to Al Pacino. I read his whole book. It was great. I don't usually do that because sometimes when you read the whole book, and I've talked about this before, then you just lead them down whatever is in the book. You have to struggle for some organic exchange. But me and Al did alright.

He hung out like, well over an hour. He was surprised when he left, it was dark out. It's very interesting to have Al Pacino in your house. These are the moments that I cherish. I have Al Pacino in my house. I'm just having a day and then Al Pacino comes wearing his long black coat with his black matching things. And it's just a little Al Pacino right on my porch

saying things like, you you know how you doing baby So he said he said hey, hey kitty said that to my cat He said hey doing baby when a kid showed up. Yeah, because we went late. We got out there He had a an assistant with him and when we went in it was light and the assistant was just hanging out on the porch And when we got out it was dark so this guy's just sitting in the dark hanging out on the porch and when we got out it was dark so this guy's just sitting in the dark, kids wandering around with their little miniature bull terrier in the dark and me and I'll walk out into this weird dark landscape and I'm like hold on let me get my phone light on Al. But it was kind of an amazing thing to talk to a guy that's sort of been in your brain for your

entire life. For your entire life Al Pacino's been in my brain. So that's sort of been in your brain for your entire life. For your entire life Al Pacino's been in my brain. So that's happening. I got a couple of dates. I'll be a dynasty typewriter in Los Angeles on Saturday, October 26th. And then, you know, I pick up the big tour scheduled for next year. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour to see all of them, all the dates. I'll probably come in kind of close to you and Then who knows what kind of world we'll be living in I still I cannot fathom on a day-to-day basis

just the intensity of the divisiveness and The kind of you know close race that is at hand. I can't I can't fathom it because I don't understand. I think I'm relatively empathetic. There was a time where I really thought the best of everybody, that people were innately at least human. But I really can't fathom in my brain at this point, how people can fully support or deny the reality

in light of their own beliefs of what another Trump presidency would mean to this country. I just can't really fathom it. So a lot of things have been adjusted. I don't believe that people are innately good. I lack empathy for people who have either voluntarily or involuntarily surrendered their brains to bullshit. I get it.

I get that there's a lot of information out there and somehow or another it's all become untethered from any barometer of truth or at least journalistic truth. So everyone's just kinda just lost in their phones being held hostage by their algorithms and allowing their brains to be completely turned into fucking reactive garbage. I don't know if there's any getting around that but not unlike yet when you have a family member with the incurable alcoholism or mental illness,

no matter how hard you try to help out or no matter how hard you believe, at some point you gotta cut them loose. And there is a sort of vibe or a feeling within me that we've gotta cut about half the country loose. I don't know why, I don't really know why. You know, it's not, it can't be about principles. It can't be about policy.

It can't be about the true belief that this will be a better place. I just think some switch has gone off in the minds of much of humanity to just fuck it. Just, you know, a nihilistic, kind of like, burn it all down kind of switch to what? Vindicate their own fucking feelings of PTSD-related anger or entitlement or just the fury of fear. I don't know. I can't figure it out anymore. Maybe I'm in the wrong position to judge.

Maybe I've never really been in the fray in terms of the real world. But I guess I'm scared, but I'm certainly nervous. But the energy it takes to kind of like push that back and kind of live in the day and be like, I've got no control over what happens. so my minds will stay in the day. And I guess I can do that, I do do it, but there's still all the input that's going on in my brain,

but I guess that's part of like, not being in the day. Gotta be in the present. Yeah, but the present is fucked up. So what happens in that situation? There are a lot of demands on everyone's time these days, and there's always new ways to save time. The present is fucked up. So what happens in that situation? There are a lot of demands on everyone's time these days and there's always new ways to save time. But one area where we've been able to save time for more than a decade is mailing and

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Oh my God, I'm deep in it. Getting up, working 12, 13 hour days, shooting this movie. I cannot believe it's only been two days. I've been on set for two days and it feels like months. Maybe it's just because I went from the Vancouver thing to this. But you know, I entered a meant... I'm trying to keep a good zone here because I'm the lead of the movie.

I'm trying not to beat the shit out of myself and be too judgmental. Trust the director. Enjoy working with the other actors. I will share with you some of the other actors that are going to be in the movie as soon as the announcement is ready to go. And I'm already wiped out in a way. As you know, I've been engaging in small tasks, but now that I'm doing the movie, it's like,

oof, I've got no time. Just, you know, you get up, you go, you come home, you cram the lines, you get up, cram the lines, go. No fitness. I'm gonna lose it. I'm gonna fucking lose it. When am I gonna find time?

How am I going to get my dopamine adjusted? But here's what something I did. I'll share my minor heroics with you. I can't share any sort of like yeah like I Ran this many miles. I met the personal challenge. I did it. I'm not one of those guys I guess it talks about like I'm running a 10k. I'm running a 20k. I'm doing the thing. I'm doing a mountains I've put up my you know, let's all do this together Let's all work out together. Let me be an inspiration for your workout routine and

your diet. Maybe that I should shift the show to that. Let me be an inspiration to you as spiritually, physically, and psychologically with my incredible regimen of food and exercise. regimen of food and exercise. Nope. Here's what I did. Kids got this old car, you know, she keeps it in pretty good shape, but both sun visors were trashed. I don't even know how that happens. All right.

It's a, it's an older car, but I mean, they were both trashed. One of them was dangling and she's just adjusting to to it moving it to the side and I'm like Jesus fuck Gotta get that fixed and then I'm like hey, this is the new world, dude Anyone can fix anything all you got to do is look it up online order the part Watch how you put it in and do it so Pretty excited to tell you I ordered her a couple new sun visors and I got myself a Torx wrench, a little star wrench, went out bought one of those

figured it out, installed them and just looked at them look at that they work fine they work good. I'm amazing look at the Jew doing the man things look at the man man putting in the visor I can't look I can't take apart an engine you know I might be able to put in a tail light but there are some things where you start to realize as you get older and why don't we just bring it in have that taken care of not gonna be replacing any tail lights or putting on a muffler. I don't care how many videos I watch. You wanna get under the car with your goddamn laptop, and wondering why the guy who's been doing it his whole life

is just popping this thing into place, and you're covered in fucking filth, and the thing's still hanging off, and you've already- you're bloody, because you're fucking so angry you can't just do what seems to be a simple thing for a guy who's been doing it his whole life and that just ruins your day. Yeah, enough of those kind of things.

You'll enter a fury that will seek to attach itself to your particular trauma in your brain and then you'll fucking break your brain and then just go down rabbit holes to your one of them. You know what I'm saying Finding that anger if you got it in you and you're not aware of it and something pops it open Whoof be careful what you hook into it be careful Don't justify that shit go to the source rewire Goddamn it. Look, folks, security is important for everyone. I have home security because I want my place to be safe when I'm home

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look Al Pacino Is is truly one of the greats and what I can tell you about this interview is That I told you I read the book, but also this idea, for me anyways, when I have a relationship with a performer, an artist for my whole life, I don't know that person, I know their work and you kind of speculate

about who they are and you make decisions and I've said this before, I'm almost always 100% wrong in terms of who I think a person is. And after reading Al's book, which is a sweet book, I realized I really didn't have any idea how this guy thought or where he lives in his brain, how he goes through life, and it was all very humanizing and very surprising in a way, in a good way.

He's a bit of an oddball, an authentic cat, and he comes into acting in a very genuine way. He wants to be an artist. He is an artist, and you can see that. You can make light of this or just sort of be like, yeah, he's a method guy. Yeah, he's this, yeah, he's that. Some people are just, you know, on a sort of feverish journey for a type of artistic truth that makes a difference, that means something to them and to the people that take in their art. And Pacino from the beginning was always that guy. And it was very interesting to me,

his beginnings in New York and what was around when he was around and his intentions in terms of when it comes to acting. And I know many of you can tell that because I'm acting and because I was nervous about this movie, I'm kind of poking around and trying to glean some useful information, which I did from Al. I actually did.

We didn't talk about acting a ton, but there's one little line in the book, and I couldn't find it when I was talking to him. I was looking for it, because I wanted him to tell me, and I've put it on a Post-It, that I've put on the notebook that I bring with my script in it, and it's really just this few beats.

It's like five things and it's helping me. And it's just from one sentence in the Al Pacino book. And it just says, go to the character. What is going on in the scene? Where are you going? Where did you come from? Why are you here? I put that on a post-it and in a moment of like,

oh my God, what's going on? Am I doing this? And just lock into that. And I think it's sort of a life-changing thing for me in terms of approaching acting, which I don't know if I'll ever do again after this movie. But nonetheless, to talk to Pacino was an honor for me and it was very fun because he's a fun guy

and I'm happy to share this conversation with you. So the book is called Sunny Boy and it's available now wherever you get your books and this is my conversation with Al Pacino. We're in the midst of a global mental health crisis and although awareness about mental health is growing, there are also significant public needs for care that are going unmet. That's why CAMH, the Center for Addiction to Mental Health, is rising to the challenge. As someone who struggled with addiction, I know there's no way to get through it alone.

CAMH is improving treatment and inspiring hope with life-saving research discoveries, building better mental health care for everyone to ensure no one is left behind. Visit camh.ca slash WTF to hear stories of hope and recovery. ["The First Time I Got Hit"] So the first time you got hit? The first time I got hit, it was a Super Son. He was 18. I was like 13 or something.

I thought I was through it. And then he hit me. And the world really came right there. I said, this is life. This is what's real. I'll never forget it. How old were you? I was about 13.

And it was just a fight in the school? No, he was bad with my mother. And so he was there. I don't know what brought it on, but I know she was having a fight with his father about something and he was like He came came at me and I you know, I said something back So he came to me and he punched me once this is a guy that was dating your mother He wasn't dating my mother. She was arguing with his father Oh now my mother might have been dating his father that I don't know

But I do know that his punch. Hey much, it just, life, I thought, this is reality. I'm not in reality, this is reality. Getting hit like that, it just went through every fiber of my body and I just felt it. Right into the present. To the present and it's like never again. That's what that needle was in my shoulder I'm not gonna anyone bigger than me. No way. So you managed to not get hit for your entire life No, I did. Unfortunately, I did Yeah, yeah had some fights I had some but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right? I'm 60. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, so like, you know this guy, as soon as I became aware of the world, Al Pacino is on screen, so you build a relationship with whatever you're putting out in the world, you make assumptions about things, and then now like, you know, 40 years later I read the book,

I'm like, he's nothing like I thought this guy. I know. No. you know, 40 years later, I read the book, I'm like, he's nothing like I thought this guy. I know, no. It's, I, you know. Well, that's good. I like that. That's a success to me. Oh, totally. Because, you know, you choose characters in somebody's work where you're like, I think that's him. I think that one, that's him. Yeah, yeah.

But, but it's not. And what was, what got me on to thinking about the end of the book is that after the near-death experience and everything else and the whole career, what you look back on is around the time when you got punched. Yeah, what I also look back on is, so to say, I was caught up in that early childhood stuff, which was such a part of my life,

and I was surprised myself, because I never wrote a book. So the discovery, the sense of, the feeling of discovery was happening. You're writing it, and you're like, oh my God. I'm seeing all these images, and they're all there right in front of me. It all happened, and it's there.

It's coming out of me. All the guys that you ran with. Especially those three that I told you about. Cliffy and... Bruce and Petey. Yeah, because like, you know, after everything you've accomplished, there's a sort of melancholy for how alive you felt when you were running around the streets in the South Bronx. Exactly.

And also when I was pursuing whatever I was pursuing in Greenwich Village at age 17. I'll tell you man, you know you had a very rare experience that people don't think about anymore and because I'm 60 I was sort of fascinated with the beatniks and whatever was going on down there. But I am curious about after having had a sort of revelation that you could act in high school a bit, that you end up down there with Julian Beck and at the Living Theater.

Judith Molina and Judith Malini. And you're what, 17? 17 with Marty Sheen. He and I work in there cleaning the toilets. And it was an interesting thing because I remember with Marty, who I thought was an insanely great actor.

And you guys are what, 17? He's a little older than you? No, we're the same age. Yeah. So you're kids. We're kids. How'd you meet him? In Charlie's class, Charlie Lawton's class.

I talk a lot about Charlie Lawton. Charlie's through the whole book. Yeah, I loved him. You're like the best friend, right? He was my mentor and best friend. So he's a little older than you? Oh, he was 11 years old. Okay, so you met him in Charlie's class.

Yeah. Okay. Marty came to Charlie's class and he did something from the Iceman Comet, Eugene O'Neill. Yeah. And it was, I mean, it was like, you know, cause that was the thing too at the time. Well, I must've been about 18 at the time he was there.

And that's when Jose Quintero was doing a show the thing too at the time. Well, I must have been about 18 at the time he was there. And that's when Jose Quintero was doing Iceman Cometh and Jason Robards Jr. plays this role. I don't know if you've ever seen him play it. Jason Robards? Yeah. He's in the movie, right? He's, Sidney Lomet made a movie of it in 19... Yeah, I got to watch it because after I read the book, I'm like, how can I not have seen

that? You have to see this. It simply is the greatest performance I've ever seen. Really? Oh, God, where he goes. So it was an inspiration to all of us. And Marty did it. He truncated it, and he did it as a piece for the acting class. And he was amazing.

Right. So you're like, that's the guy. So we were friends, and then we lived together. He came to live with me in my apartment, and we were really, we were both starving together. The image I have of him is, I was out, I think in Rockaway, we used to go to Rockaway Beach, from New York City, Take about seven different trades.

And then we'd get there and Charlie would be there with his little baby and his wife and a few of the others. And we were like a little group from the class. We went on to do plays together and stuff. And Marty and I would do that in the surf fish for clams, you know, with our hands, bring them home. We're going to eat them because we didn't eat all day. And then there's all the sand in them, you know, and I'm by my sink.

I have the visual on it. It's great. And I got the clams trying to get the sand out. Marty's just sitting there in the kitchen. Yeah. And we're starving, you know, so we're eating it with the sand and everything. Those are the good old days. Oh, I love them. Yeah, clam. When you think back on these things, that's the thing.

You know, you think back on them and you just have this place. I mean, it's like you're looking at a mini movie. Yeah. Yeah, and it kind of, it starts running more and more, you know, I guess, as you get older, you know, because, you, because when you're going, you're going, you're going. And then if you lose your way, you gotta figure out, well, where'd I start? Right?

And that's where you started. But I think what spoke to me a bit, this book was very, I don't know if the word is fortuitous for me, because I'm about to embark on a role, and I'm reading a lot of this stuff, and I'm pulling out what I can about your process, but also the guy who got a play as an old actor, of my age, and it's a funny conceit,

but in looking at how you chose roles and what you could and couldn't do, which at some points it seems like you didn't think you could do anything. Yes. It is true. You'd see a role and you'd be like, not for me. I am not going to. Yeah.

Well, you know, Marty and I were in the back of the theater. I know you might have heard of this play. It was called The Connection, Jack Gelber. Okay. Yeah. It's called The Connection Jack Gelber. Okay, yeah, yeah. It's called The Connection. They made a film of it, but it wasn't, it doesn't really do it. It doesn't. Yeah. But it was great and they had a little jazz group on the stage. Yeah. And we used to lay the stage rugs down. Yeah. We would do the set, me and Marty, and then go back, clean the toilets,

and then come out and look at the play over and over again. And there's one part in the play that is absolutely, it's an audition piece. And Marty said to me, he said, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna be on that stage doing that part. And I looked at him and I thought, yeah, look at him, I could tell. It's not for me, I wasn't there yet.

I just was from the South Bronx coming in. And it was something and he did it. He did it. He did it. And he nailed it? He nailed it. Through the roof. And then he started getting work.

And then that whole section. So he was like a working actor. He was in the play and he saw me on the subway. He was on the platform and I had my, you know, and he said, come, come, be my understudy. He said, you'd honor me. For what show? He did a show called The Wicked Cooks at the Orpheum on Second Avenue, and he had this part, and I couldn't even understand the play.

It was way over my head. And so, but he said, understudy himself. But I didn't realize understudying is you understudy the part. You gotta know the part. Of course I didn't do that. I didn't learn, I just was wandering in the theater. And then this guy, I have to say his name, I have to.

His name was, I think, Vyshek, Vyshek Shumik, a guy from, I guess, the Czech area, Czechoslovakia. And there was a great poll in the great theaters they had there. And so he came from, he had a name. And he was this kind of a kid. This was his show, he directed it? He directed it. Okay.

And there was a cast in there, and he was, did not like me. Yeah. He just, you know, he just saw me as a loser, and that was it, this guy's not gonna bring flowers to rehearsals, he's just not in this room. And then he started, so he put two and two together and thought, I was a method actor, that's why I was

always so quiet. I was sort of very introverted when I hung around the theater people who I didn't know, so I was very shy, I didn't know. But I had always had this look on my face, you know, an anarchic look. People don't like that. Sometimes it comes to me now, I'll be at some party and that look comes on, I say, hell, you can't look like that.

Now you gotta change the look. You've done things, you have personality, people know who you are. Be a little more, you know, social. So come on now. This happens now? Yes, be a little more social. Come on now. This happens now? Yes, to this day it happens. I go to a place sometimes.

So he comes to me with all things, of all things. He comes to me, Marty Sheen, with laryngitis. He just comes, ow, ow, ow, I can't, I can't. He's joking, I thought he's kidding, this was a fucking act. So I'm thinking, what are you saying? I said, Marty, what are you doing? He says, I can't go on. Can you imagine? You don't know the play.

Of course I don't know the play. I don't know anything. They march around. They wanted me to play a soldier. There's no lines, but just marches around. I couldn't do it. I couldn't follow the marches where it was going. I was like, I'm going to go to the movies.

I'm going to go to the movies. I'm going to go to the movies. I'm going to go to the movies. I'm going to go to the movies. I'm going to go to the movies.. They wanted me to play a soldier. There's no lines, but just marches around. I couldn't do it. I couldn't follow the marches where it was going. My mind was somewhere, you know. Anyway, I'm saying, I can't just, can't go on. So he starts trying to help me with the part. And, oh, here's the way you move.

And I'm really, I'm saying, Monty, this is a lost cause, please. I can't do this thing. And Vichy, the director, he says, come here. I'll make you do the part. I said, oh, I, he says, here, say this. Look, what are you looking at over there? Then he starts to criticize me.

Like, I say, you're method actors. He didn't method act. I wasn't a method actor. You were a kid. I was a kid. But somehow that look on my face, that sort of. You kind of talk about this throughout the book, these moments where you're like people,

they didn't like you. They just didn't like me, because I didn't participate in something. But as it was, I have pretty, you know, I have a jovial sort of side. Yeah. I grew up with that, that's how I'm I have a jovial sort of side. Yeah. I grew up with that. That's how I'm still alive.

Yeah. Because I was funny. Yeah. And, uh... But you just, you were nervous. I wasn't even nervous. I was observing. Yeah.

I felt out of place in this... Everywhere. ...literary world, you know, to be... Yeah. But it seems like everywhere, like eventually, whether it was L.A. or a party. Yes. I don't know. I didn't even think about LA. Well, that was the interesting thing about the beginnings,

is that there was this sense that you seem to keep, where you were like, this is an art. We're doing something. It's true. We are artists. We're not entertainers first. That's right. Right?

Yeah. So there was a moment where you must have realized, I mean the earnestness of the Living Theater, right? It was the breakthrough. It was like life or death. It made off-Broadway. Yeah. That's it. But when you saw that kind of work you were like, this is the thing. Oh my god. And then... Did you ever hear a play called the... Probably not. Don't kill yourself kill yourself no this play was written by Kenneth the Brick okay yeah yeah the players one day and night in the brick yeah I had to go I had a little room in the village yeah just stayed in it yeah

a couple of days you have to see in that play so I say you're sensitive and devastated you yeah devastated you. Yeah, it devastated me. But when was the moment where you were like, I'm doing it? It took. On stage, where you felt, not I'm gonna be an actor, but you're on stage and you're like, it's happening.

Well, it's in the book too. I know. When I was doing Strindberg's credits. That's the problem with reading the book. I already know. You know already, yeah. Well, it was at that time, I had Charlie, of course, Charlie Dottner, I was in his class and I was doing it and I was doing it.

Strindberg. Strindberg, and I did Hello Out There, which is a Soren play, which a beautiful play, and I was doing it at Cafe Chino. I wasn't very good at it, whatever that means, but I was doing something there and and then We used to do 16 shows a week. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, and so he's to pass the hat That's how we ate. Yeah, and it was fun and it was the village and it was what a time

Yeah to be there. Yeah, I came well, it was cuz art was important. Yeah, it's all it was You know, it wasn't like it wasn't careerism, it wasn't it was it wasn't even like acting school was like this stuff is and everything was changing right? It's the 60s or late 50s. That's right, it was the 60s. Yeah. And it was I never thought of business. Business had nothing to do with it. Money had nothing to do with it. That seemed to went right into your 70s. The business. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Well that's the funny thing about being an artist

because I started, like after I read the horrible thing with the accountant later in your life that. Oh God. Yeah, well but the fact is is that, you know that whole side of the business knows, like half of the time they're like, these fucking guys, these clowns, they were just gonna, they don't know anything,

just they're good so we'll make money off of them. And we don't know, we don't know what from money. All you know is when you have enough to eat places, you want to eat. Exactly right. That's it. I mean, you have to learn, I still to this day, I just refuse to learn it.

I learned that I need to have some people around me. That you trust, you gotta find those guys. I think that's the interesting thing too people around me. That you trust. You got to find those guys. That's what you have to find. I think that's the interesting thing too about the end of the book and reflecting on those first friends is I think there's a longing for a trust that cannot be replicated like the one you had with those guys. No, you can't. Right?

No. And there's nobody you're going to get in your orbit. It's like, you know, this guy seems like a nice guy. But back then, it was implicit. Yes, it was the way it was. And then, so as you move into this profession into this art, it's funny, because, you know, I don't know, you say at times that, you know, you were seen as difficult, but it seems that every instance of that, it was really to service the story. That's right. And that started very early on, right?

Yeah, it did. And when did you really start to put together a craft for yourself, of acting? Well, I had this idea. Yeah. I didn't like acting class. And of course, Charlie was a teacher. But you liked him for some reason.

I loved him. Because he was a teacher and but you liked him for some I loved him because he was a friend He saw me as if he sort of came from kind of area I came from there was a connection to him. Yes. He was just way ahead for ya, you know And yeah, he found that I I had gifts. Yeah, he saw certain gifts. Well, so did that teacher years, right? Oh, that's the Blanchard. Yeah. Oh my god. Yes. I Well, so did that teacher of yours, right? Paul Rothstein, Blanche Rothstein. Oh my God, yes. I mean, you didn't even know what you were doing,

but she went to your grandmother and said, he's gotta do this. Yeah. He said that to her, something like that. Yeah, yeah. My mother got a little nervous about it because mom thought I was, you know, kind of, you know, poor people don't do this kind of thing.

Right, yeah, yeah. But I do know that what I really did when I worked with her is- With Rothstein. Rothstein, I did plays with her. And she would put me, I'd read the Bible in assembly. Yeah. You know, how old I was, I don't know,

anywhere from 10 to 12, I read the Bible in assembly. You know, how old I was, I don't know, anywhere from 10 to 12, I'd read the Bible to class, and I loved reading the words. I didn't know what the words meant, I didn't even know what I was talking about, but they filled me up with stuff. And I only recognized that recently, that's what's part of my thing, I love words. And she had these feelings for me,

put me in a play, that play that got me, my mother and father came to. My father and mother, I never saw them together, except that time when I was three or four years old. Because he left. He left because he was in the army, he was in the war, and then he came back and he was never there again. And this little thing in the theater watching the Ray Milan's Lost Weekend.

I see my dad down there and I'm with my mom. Up in the balcony. Up in the balcony. I see him and I see some big gun on the side He's an MP or so. Yeah. Yeah. I was I said dada. So I must have been that young. Yeah, the same data Yeah And she kept saying she wanted to see you want to see you I got used to that in my my older age. Yeah, but but but the way way it is now, it's a question of

a young kid who all of a sudden liked this stuff. I like being, like a lot of, you'll hear a lot of actors say they liked the attention you get and the fact that you're with your other kid, your other family, it's like a bit of a family. And I loved words. Yeah, and she put you in the play and they came, did it go well?

I knew they were there, so it didn't go well that night. I wasn't as good as, I even said it at the time, like, that's the play, I came off stage and some adult came up to me, say kid. And I laugh, I guess it was around 13, 12. And the kid said to me, hey kid and I laugh I guess it was 13 and and and the kids they said to me hey he's an adult he said you're gonna be the next Marlon Brando yeah I said who's Marlon Brando I don't know how would I know but when did you realize you didn't like acting class was that with the Bergdorf experience yeah I

never sort of like I always felt shy and stuff and and I tried out for the actor studio Which I failed One the first time first time and Cliffy tried out with 16 the other kid. Yeah, then go it didn't end well for Cliffy It didn't end well, but he was gonna do the acting too. Yeah, he was Bruce was Everybody he was in performing arts when he when he did that with the teacher there Well, you've done was a performing arts high school. That's right. Yeah So you didn't make the actor studio you didn't like that? What's it? Was it Howard Bergdorf is that his man Bergdorf? I didn't Bergdorf. Yeah, I didn't know quite what I was doing yet. Yeah, it took me time to this day

Are you doing plays and stuff? Yeah, I was doing I wasn't I was doing Acting in the classes. Yeah, yeah. In the classroom, I get in a scene and I do the scene. As I gradually started to learn what that's about, yes, the juxtaposition of it, what you have to do. Doing a scene in front of people, yeah, with a partner, yeah, is the best way to learn. Yeah. It's is the best way to learn. It's just the best way because you're there and you're doing it and it takes time. It takes years.

There's a point in the book where you said, I don't usually do this for you, mark up the book. But I get nervous and I'm like, well I should mark up the book a little bit because Al's gonna be here. But there was something about when, what you kind of rendered it down to, where am I, what do I do?

Yeah, where am I going? Yeah, yeah. That kind of stuff. Those are your go-tos. Yeah, yeah. Why, why am I here? Yeah, here's the character, where am I going? Why am I here?

What do I, you know, what do I? It was up, I do it to this day, I was doing it in Lear. We all got together, we're talking about a scene, you know. This is Shakespeare, what's going on? Let's just talk about it, you know. But it's funny, you know, at a certain age, a guy like you who loves Shakespeare so much, it's sort of like, well, I guess it's time.

Time to do Lear. For Mr. Lear, yeah. Right? Oh my God, yes. Finally, they kept pushing me to do that, old guy, you know. We all stay away from him. You know, I thought I'd be gone before I had to do it. But I'm still here, so I did him. And now it's time?

Now it's time. So the Strindberg experience was really kind of locked you in. That was the big one. It was so interesting, because I was in this play that Charlie, I was a messenger, and I worked for this place, and I met this dispatcher, his name was Frank Biancomando,

and he had his own theater in the village, naturally, like where Soho House is now. There was nothing there, just factories then. And he had this place, you go up to the flight, and we would do plays there. I did, you know, Tiger at the Gates, the Judd Doe play. You're in your 20s now? I'm just touching 20, 21.

Oh, wow, yeah, okay, yeah. So I'm in this play with Charlie Love, too, and I recommend it. And I'm doing it, I'm working with two pros in the other parts, I mean, they're really good. Then Biancomano was directing, he had a little problem with the lead guy, Henry Calvin, a great actor,

and he was doing a wonderful job, he was down this little theater. And I didn't know what the problem was, but Frank took over the role and fired him. We didn't make money, you know. I mean, nobody was, you're not losing a paycheck. But this other woman was there, I forget her name, Herma something, and Charlie came in to direct it.

And Charlie started, he saw it. Then he started directing it with Frank and me. It's a beautiful play, it's tremendous, it's creditors. So I'm on stage at one point, and it just happened. I just started to speak the words of Strindberg. But so connected to me that something happened to me right while I was doing it. I thought this is it, it's like you're on the cello

or something and you're playing Bach and all of a sudden it's in you and it's coming out. This is what I, and you just lift it and you wanna do this. I wanna do this again and again, you know? Chase it. This is, chase it. And I said, it doesn't matter if I become successful,

if I'm famous, I'm not famous, if I eat, I don't eat, I have money, I don't have money. This is what matters. Yeah. It's crazy. This is the only thing that matters now. Yeah. And that was it. And then I was devoted. What a great moment.

And I have a photo of it because at the time, there was, you know, the great Richard Avedon, he had a nephew and his name was Michael Avedon. He's gone, poor guy. But there he was, and his sister sort of and I were having just a flirtation, it wasn't anything. We were young and she was at the theater because she did something else at this theater called The Actors Gallery.

And he took a picture, he took a photo. Yeah, of your moment? Performance. And there's the moment, I have the photo, it's in the book, of when I think it's in the book. I've got the, the one I ended up with was the, the one before they printed, the galley copy. Oh, the galley copy.

I'll tell you, man, when they sent this to us, we had to sign an NDA, I was in Canada working on something, and they were like, this is top secret, you know, and then the fucked up thing is it goes to I get to the apartment I'm standing in Vancouver and they're like we never got it. I'm like you don't understand. This is like nuclear secrets. This is Pacino's memoir. Should we call the police? You made us crazy. We had to fill out paperwork to get the fucking book. Oh my God. But from that point on, then you really start...

Do you feel like you had control of it? Do you feel like you could make it happen again? Was there something in place? But I sort of understood why I'm doing it. Right. I understood that this is something that I actually want to do. Right. I don't want to go to auditions and see agents, I just wanna do this.

And so that became my sort of mantra. Right. But when you looked at pieces, so you have that revelation, and you've done some acting classes, but you're doing anything you can to act, after that moment, do you look at a piece of writing and say, I can make this happen?

Yes, that's all I do now, is if I relate to a piece, I can't do anything I don't relate to. I try to sometimes, and if I fall on my face, I really feel a connection to something, then I could go somewhere. You can find it. You can find it. I can find it. Because you can connect it to yourself.

That's right. Yeah, because it was interesting, after years and years of watching you, and then going through the movies and stuff, and then there was a period there where we saw you occasionally, and there's an interesting thing with actors your age is that sometimes they lean on the tricks

that they've learned. Yeah. And you can see it. They don't have to work as hard because they've got a series of ticks that gets them through a thing. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, after.

And they're brilliant at it. Of course. Of course. You know, I'm not denying that. But there was a point where, you know, you had done a few brash characters. I think you'd done Scent of a Woman and stuff. And you were operating at this level of intensity.

And there's, you know and I'm thinking like, is Al, what's his range like now? And then you do that Kevorkian movie, and I'm like, he's back, look at that! Like, you know, I was so impressed, I'm like, he's doing the work, this guy's a sensitive guy, a vulnerable guy, to completely transform himself.

Yeah. It's great, I got a question. Yeah. It's great. Here, I got a question for you. It's a personal question in that, I believe, like I saw you do American Buffalo in Boston when I was in college. Yeah. At the Shubert, I think.

Yeah. Now, after I saw it, cause I was a big fan, I left going like, I think he's, there's still a little Cuban in there. Is that possible? Is there still a little Cuban? It's totally possible. You know why?

Why? I've just, I've been doing scarface right it's all that carried over I'm sure yeah it was kind of interesting you know because I'd watch Scarface I'm like little Tony I think of the little Tony and that's right it probably is because that's very observing because I was just doing in San Francisco yeah I was doing no in LA in LA, we were doing Scarface. I had nine months of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it must have been out already for me to know that.

Yeah. Yeah. It must have just come out, because I probably saw it immediately. All right, so, okay, so now you got the gift and you know what you want to do when you're doing it. So how does it transpire that, you know that how does the film career start? The film career is is you know the big thing that happened to me

I should say this because it's probably that It was like I did a play called the Indian wants to bronze as well Horowitz I did that play in college. There it is. Yeah, it's great. Were you the guy who wrote me a letter many years later? No, I don't think so. Well, some young actor wrote me a letter and said, there's a part in the play I know you did it at.

He said, how did you get, why did you beat up the phone booth? Yeah, yeah. I said, no, no, that's stage direction. Don't look at that because that was not in the play for a while, but I had been doing the play for almost a year and something happened one night. Transitions come out of nowhere,

but they come out of repetition. See, repetition keeps me green. That's one of the, it's a saying, because the more you do something, the more fresh it gets. That's the strangest thing. Because you don't have to, the act of memorizing goes away.

That's right. Your mind is not in it. Everything else is. You don't have to remember something. So you can hear and see everything that's going on. And so I found myself one night, I had been doing the play a year, all around and stuff.

And then I just went. And that was because I felt it. You went and you beat up the phone. Yeah, beat up the phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was weird, I was doing it, I don't understand what the fuck I was doing. You were Murph?

I was Murph. Yeah, and so then Israel added that into the state jury. That's right, he took that, be good for being the play. I said, but Israel, you know, this is my thing. I've been doing it for a year and a half, you know. I understand those certain things about the play. So I told the guy, you know, it's better maybe you don't need to do it.

That came out of a transition that developed over a year of playing it every night. I saw a guy do it in college and he peed in the garbage can on the set during the play. But then when they were roughhousing, the bottle that he used to pee with fell out onto the stage and I'm like, that kind of ruined it. I knew that ahead of time.

As soon as you started, I said that pee's gonna go somewhere. Yeah, there's the bottle. Oh my God. So, okay, so that gets you- That's grotesque if you don't mind my saying it. You know what happens at theater. You talk about a moment where a woman in England-

Oh, God, yes. She asks you if you got a cigarette. And you're doing, what are you doing, Indian? I'm doing Buffalo. Buffalo, right, yeah, yeah. And we're talking and she comes up, you know, wandering. And she gets right to the foot of the proscenium and looks up at us and me and says,

got a light, got a light, got a light. I thought, lady, and the guy on the plane was says, we're working here, man, we're walking here, you know, we're working here. But you didn't break character because. No, no, we didn't. And it is a testament to the naturalism of the show that she thought, maybe you have whatever

Alcohol or brain glitch she had though. Yeah, I'm just gonna go ask those guys. That's right I even join him if I have to come on up So okay, so Indian gets you to to panic and needle Park. Yeah Indian gets me to Marty Brickman Marty but your manager the manager and he's another reason I'm here today. Yeah, that guy. So, Faye Dunaway, who was a real hot star, big time, great actress, she did Bonnie and Clyde,

and she comes to the theater, and she sees me in it. I didn't know her. I never, she went and told Marty Bregman. You gotta get this guy? Go see this kid. Yeah, yeah. So he goes down with a guy named David Biedelman, I don't know if you heard of him.

He's the guy who shot himself at the end of his life. He was the biggest agent. Yeah. They both come in. Yeah. And that's the story of Marty Bregman. Marty Bregman says, I wanna handle you. Yeah, yeah.

And he had Streisand. Right. He had some of these people like Judy Garland. Oh wow. So he had them. But he had Alan Alder. Yeah. He had Alan Alder, that was the actor he had.

Yeah. And a couple of other people. And I remember him talking to him and I remember one point he stretched out on his chair and I saw his gun. Yeah. I mean it was unusual seeing someone with a gun in those days. And so I thought, wow, it's got a white handle too.

It reminded me of my father's 45 when he picked us up at the movie house. He was an MP. Yeah. Yeah, but I used it in a heat. Oh, did you? Yeah, I used that gun. I remember that gun and I said, I don't know how my guy... Yeah, you find the gun? the guy with a white handle. Yeah so

Anyway, he was something Powerful. I yeah, and I went back and I told Charlie I said, you know, I just don't trust this guy But I trust him because I think he understands something out there. Yeah, then I'll never never understand That's his job and Charlie said he's like a bulwark for you to keep going. I said that's what I feel. Yeah. And I stuck with him and I really grew to love him, of course. Well it's interesting because you also,

you talk about how when you saw The Graduate, you realized that everything was changing. Everything was changing. That possibilities of actors changing. That's right. There was a big shift in the 70s with everything that was going on. That was the cutting edge of it. Easy Rider, I think, is what started it. But the place for the humanizing of the anti-hero, right?

And that you didn't need a happy ending. And you didn't need tragedy necessarily. But you could be sort of like, well, I'm not sure how I feel about that. Exactly. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And it was there. And I saw it. I was because I had heard a lot about Justin. Yeah. First of all, he was great in the Journey of the Fifth Horse. I don't know if you ever heard. No. Amazing. A play? Yeah, a play. And he was also, but they televised it.

Yeah. And he was at a theater company in Boston. Yeah. Where he was doing, then he did a play called Eh. Uh-huh. You were a fan. I was a fan. Oh, I thought this guy is, this guy's great.

Was he at the actor's studio? Yes. He was at the actor's studio. Earlier than you. Around the same time, I think we all got in together, Bob De Niro, Dustin and me. Yeah, and what year was that? Oh, god.

Late 60s? Probably the late 67s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you guys were the big three. He's a little older? No, yeah. He's older than me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so you guys were the big three. He's a little older? No. He's older than me. Yeah, yeah.

Dustin's a few years older than me. It's interesting because my assumption was, you know, when just because I mythologized based on very little information that, you know, when I saw Strausberg in Godfather 2 that you know, that the reason why you pulled him in was because this was your mentor but you know you kind of Charlie was my mentor right Charlie yes he told me go look at Lee for Maya for Lance yeah he told me also look at John Gazelle who's a dear friend of mine before for a dog day afternoon yeah yeah yeah well yeah so these guys were around and Charlie was the guy. Because my assumption was like this is the teacher, this is the student, but it really

wasn't like that. No. I mean, because you say like, yeah, Lee was around. He was around. I loved Lee as a person. I loved him as a theorist too. Yeah, yeah. I've seen a couple of his shows he put on about the great actresses from from Dusa to Madame Fiske, to all these Sarah

Bernhardts. Yeah, yeah, sure. And so he'd have Sundays, Lee, where he would, you know, you'll hear Toscanini at a rehearsal and he starts screaming, it is great stuff. You heard Sarah Bernhardt doing Fedre in French. He had these copies. He had Caruso's first record, 1907. Oh, so he's opening Minds.

Yeah. He had that kind of a place to it. It was like a salon. A salon. Yeah, yeah. That feeling. But it was fun, too. So Panic! at Needle Park gets you out there.

I watched it recently. It's a great movie you out there. It's a great movie. It is. It's an honest movie. Shatzberg. Shatzberg, like there's the, you know, the drug use in that movie was disturbing. Yeah. Like, you know, he didn't hold back. He got right up in there. You saw the needle. You saw everything. It's a love story. It's a love story.

Yeah, sure. A love story with addicts, which is, because the true love is... And it's a true story. Joan Didion wrote it, you know, and Dominic Dunn. And that gets you to Coppola. Yeah, that's the big one. Because I then I went to Broadway with Tyker, and I won an Obie for India Wants the Bronx. Oh, okay. So you're like a stage actor. All of a sudden, I've got some sort of, you know, these things are happening. And Charlie's

right with it. And that's the time when Charlie first saw Indian Wants the Bronx in a loft. Right. And him and Penny are there. They see the play. His wife, yeah. His wife. And we go to, this is before anything. This is before I got hired to do it off Broadway. He sees it and he comes and he says, you're here, Al.

You're here. This is it. Wow. And we went out to celebrate on Canal Street. We didn't have a part to visit, but we're celebrating about something that's never gonna happen, of course But it did happen. Yeah, so weird, but so with your relation with Charlie throughout your entire life

Yeah, right to the end of his so did you go outside of you know friendship and and and whatever did Would you go to him when you had questions about characters? Yeah, I would go to him all the time I would be he would read scripts for me. He read Star Wars, because I read Star Wars. He offered me Star Wars. When I came back to Broadway, I think, after I did Godfather and stuff, and naturally I was getting all these offers.

And I read this thing, because, you know, who directed that again? George Lucas. George Lucas, who I actually met in San Francisco. And I said, I don't understand this play. Yeah. So I said, Charlie, read this thing, offering me a fortune here for this, and I don't understand it.

And he read it, and he said, well, I don't get it, Al, I don't get it either. I said, well, I can't understand it. And he read it and he said, well, I don't get it, Al. I don't get it either. I said, well, I can't do it then, right? So I turned to tell. That's all right. You know, you turn a lot of things down. What was the part, Han Solo?

It must have been me giving, what's his name, Harrison Ford. I gave him his career. That's the way I like to look at it. I certainly did. That's great, by the way. Oh yeah, yeah, he is something, huh? He is something I love.

The interesting, the thing about The Godfather, because I've watched it several times recently, because I was stuck in a trailer in Vancouver doing an Apple show, and I figured out how to use the television and hook it up to the Netflix, and I was like, great, I should be studying my lines and doing other things, but I go crazy in trailers. I go crazy. I can't, it's just, I can be studying my lines and doing other things, but I go crazy in trailers. I go crazy.

I can't, it's just, I can't. I couldn't do it either. It was when I got a TV installed on every trailer. I made films, other than that, I'm not making films. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's hard, right? Just sitting around and waiting? Yeah, because at some point, no matter how many things you do,

you get to a point like, what could they be doing? Yes. What could they be doing? How long does it take to light the thing? Yeah, it's just, I'm the present. Yeah, so you see, so I'm watching The Godfather. What struck me about it was that last scene where you make a choice, you know, you're Michael in the last scene, the flashback of the party. So you would already experienced the full arc of Michael. Yes. But you chose to go, you're almost droopy.

Like the entire physicality of Michael in that moment. I mean, it was a hell of a choice. And then it adds so much, you see back through that moment, whatever he became. He was sort of encased in stone. And what he's trying, what I thought was gonna happen is how am I gonna go on doing this? It was beyond belief.

It was a tough ride for two, for me. I had a hard time with it. But in one it was tough too, because you get this job, Francis is bouncing off the walls, and you don't even know if you're gonna keep the job. Francis called me when I was doing that Broadway play, right, and he had seen it, and he called me, and that was earlier than Godfather,

it was before Godfather. And I went out to San Francisco because he had written a great script about a college professor falls in love with a student. And it was mythical, the way he did it. And his whole life falls apart. And it was done so well. But they didn't want me and they didn't want Francis.

So a year later, he calls me. A year later, and I got to know him for four or five days with him. Did they make that movie? No. Oh, yeah. Okay. And then he calls me and he says, I said, Francis, you know, voice out of the past. I like him a lot.

I thought he was really intelligent in a way. He says, yeah, I just want you to know I'm directing The Godfather. Oh, yeah, I just want you to know I'm directing The Godfather. Then I thought for that brief second when somebody talks to you, I thought, I think maybe he's in trouble with his mind. You can't imagine, you know, Hollywood and Godfather is like so far away. It's not in the normal actors who are just trying

to get through it, you know, see what's going on, to connect to those kind of movies because we don't live in that domain. We're not there. And then he says, Ferdinand, I want you to play Michael. I thought, now he's gone too far. He's gone too, and I just, I was humoring him. And I did start thinking, this guy is brilliant though. And I think I had seen one of the movies he made with Ripped Horn, who, and it was great, Elizabeth Horne, it was wonderful.

You're a good boy now. So anyway, I just was stunned by it. And I said Paramount's smart because they're picking this guy, he's an Italian American too. And you knew the book. I knew the book, I read the book, of course. I did, at the time, everybody read it. And I didn't see myself as Michael at all,

it was the last thing I... And I called my grandmother, who was the only part of my relatives left. And she was living up in the Bronx. And I said, Grand, you know, they want me to play the Guy and the Godfather. And you know, she doesn't know from this. So I said, oh, that's good, Sonny, good. And I said, yeah, I just want doesn't know from this. Yeah, so I saw that's good. So I think good. Yeah, and I said yeah

I just want you know. Yeah, she calls me back In about an hour. Yeah, and she says grandfather Sonny that's that's where your granddad was born in Corleone. That's crazy crazy Yes, no where my grandfather came from. I didn't know where my grandfather came from. I knew my grandfather, and I loved him. He's another reason I'm here.

But I didn't know he was from, I knew he was from Sicily, but Corleone, I didn't know. They brought you up, right? Your grandparent. Yeah, they did. Him and my grandmother and mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I didn't even know it was a real place. Me neither.

I'm a... And this guy's Corleone and my grandfather comes... A certain right came to me, you know. I have the right to do it. This is not... This is... What do they call it? Kismet. Kismet, yeah. So, but, you know, the... It seemed like, you know, moving through The Godfather and a few of the other movies with

And this I don't think you can something you can you know that happens anymore, but your conception of Michael You know was not working for the studio No, or for Francis and you knew you know you had a sensibility about yourself. What what was the issue? I think, they weren't seeing something that they wanted to see. A certain kind of film charisma, I would imagine. Because I didn't know the area, and I did Panic! and Needlepunk!,

but I was into that part, I understood that. And I was trying, what I was trying to do is keep a low profile early on in the film. Because I used to think, I'd walk from 91st Street and Broadway to the Village and back, thinking about how am I gonna make this transition to go from, so I made a kind of more mild-mannered, not intrusive kind of character,

a character who's there, sees things, but knows not to go any further because he understands his family is, you know. He's not his family. He's not his family. And he slowly is there, but there's nothing set up to show that in the film, it's just my inner world. And of course, they didn't like it. They didn't like what they saw.

He calls me into the Ginger Am. It was a great place. Francis does. Francis is there with his wife and family in a sitting in the, there's a bar, it's a great place. A lot of people from Lincoln Center would go. The musicians, I saw the great Bernstein. Oh yeah, Leonard, yeah.

Leonard Bernstein. Anyway yeah, Leonard, yeah. Leonard Bernstein. Yeah. Anyway, I'm there. He calls me. So I come up to him, standing by the table. With his family sitting there. Yeah, but he doesn't invite me to sit down. So I'm saying, he says, I want to talk to you. And I said, yeah, I sort of.

Maybe, he says, you know, I put a lot into you here. Because he did, he put everything in. They were gonna fire him, he was risking everything. And he did. And he saw me as this character. And you're an actor, you know, if a director really sees only you for a thing, you go with it.

You may not even feel comfortable when you go with it. I don't trust it, but okay. Yeah, well, I sort of felt that he's so smart. If he wants me, he's got enough. So, naturally, I look at the family. He says, Al, go see the rushes. Go see the film we've shot so far. You'll get an idea of what I'm talking about, he said,

because, you know, you're on Tender Hooks here with his buddy. You know, but I noticed he never asked me to sit down and everybody was eating. And so you were dismissed. I was sort of dismissed. I said, well, go see it. He wasn't rude or anything, but it was just uncomfortable. And so I went and I went to the Paramount at that time,

had that in the circle, you know the circle Columbus yeah. Yeah, I went up to the floor. They turned on the projection. I start looking at myself And I thought it wasn't very interesting. Yeah anything I was doing but these things cut together, you know, I mean I Thought but I thought I I think that's the right track. I thought, I want to surprise an audience. I want to come and turn into something. They like that stuff. It's good, that transitional thing.

I always felt it instinctive. I couldn't articulate it. That's the thing. So I went to Francis and I said, oh yeah, I know what you mean. I said, totally. You I know what you mean. I said, totally. You've done that with directors. They come give you a direction

and you say, oh yeah, that's cool. That's cool. You're right. I'll do that. You're right. I'm with you on it. In the early days, I couldn't tolerate it if they came out tonight. There'd be a fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But now.

But you wanted that gig. You wanted the gig. So did you change anything? Didn't change a word. Didn't do a thing differently. Except Francis did, he was wise enough. He moves the Salazzo and the Sterling Hay murder up front so they'll shoot it.

Early. Earlier. Okay. He denies it. he denies that he did that Yeah, so I think oh somebody did yeah, and I was there and I did that scene. Yeah Yeah, oh good He had the killer that's it. Yeah, well, that's the change That's the transition from Michael who didn't want to be part of it to Michael who's in up over his head almost. So they're like, oh, he's a killer. But yeah, but no, but the executive seat is like, look at that. He can do it. Yeah, he just blew those guys away.

I mean, obviously, I was sitting there and all of a sudden my eyes started to go, like I thought, whoa, I had no control. It was so frightening that I had to do that. And so then I come up and do it, and that got me to part. When I ran out, there was a cab there, and I jumped on a cab, and I fell. I fell off the cab. I missed it.

There wasn't a stunt man. They didn't have, I didn't have a camper. I stayed in that smoke-filled 15-hour room. In the restaurant. In the restaurant with Sterling Hayden and Al Letire, little Al Letire. The two of them were so, I loved those guys so much. But Sterling Hayden, huge. I mean, huge star, two of them, he's everything. And they're just talking to me, and they so understood what was going on. They understood that they wanted to get rid of me.

And they were just so nice, you know, actors. Yeah, they're good. They're good people. Yeah, yeah, well, a lot of them. It worked. And so it worked, and then when I fell, when I jumped into the, and I fell on the floor, I landed, I looked up at the sky, and I jumped into the, and I fell on the floor and landed,

I looked up at the sky and I thought, God, thank you, thank you, because I'm out of here now. Oh, you think you broke your foot. I thought I broke my ankle, and I thought I'm freed. I'm freed from this, because nobody wants me around when they're not wanted. You don't want to be there. Yeah, yeah, but no, they shot you up with cortisone,

and they got you working and walking. But what was interesting to me is that the collaborative nature of it, once you were in the part, that moment, and he did it again in Scarface because he talked about it, where you're going to, if you don't see something as serving the story,

or you can't act through something because it's not correct, you're going to make an issue of it. And because of that, you claim that you had a reputation, but it was not because you're nuts. No. It was because... Well, I'm nuts.

You have to stay with that, please. Yeah. It is true, too. But yeah. But that moment with Frank Tantangeli You know that they'd already shot him coming to the table and in Tahoe drunk a few times, right? But he got yes, but he doesn't say anything and then one time he says, you know I found cool and you're and they're wrapping the scene and he spills the wine

Yeah, and they're wrapping the scene you like that Michaels got a answer to he's got to respond to that. Yes Right, but but were moving on. I know, well, they were finished for the night. We had ice in, we put the ice in our mouths because it was so cold. Yeah, oh, you wanted no steam, right. The steam was coming out of the mouth, it was supposed to be summer,

so everybody was exhausted. And I just said to Francis, we got to turn the camera around because Michael has to react to it. Yeah. And he just stared at me. And he said, oh, okay. He knew you were right though.

Yeah, he did. He knew I was right. So you gotta get everyone, come back in, set it back. Everybody's gotta come back in or out because he wants his close-up redone. But it's a real moment. Of course, you know, I had a, you go through that in films, you know,

things get done after your stuff is done, and they're totally different. I felt that recently in Lear. Yeah? Yeah, and I said, boy, I have to go back and do a couple of things, because this person did that, and that person, they didn't do that on my take.

And it was big stuff, and it really was changing. The very, you know, the nature of the- The core of the scene. Yeah, yeah, because that thing you did in Scarface, I mean, it's crazy! With the scene in the restaurant. That's right. For budgetary reasons, where you're like, yeah, take a good look at the bad guy. Yeah. For budgetary reasons, where you're like,

yeah, take a good look at the bad guy. Yeah. For budgetary reasons, they're gonna do it at the club when you're wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Doesn't make sense. It makes no sense. So you gotta go to the mat with that and say, if he's down in a tuxedo,

what's the fucking point of the scene? That's right. But that was a big hit, right? Yeah, that went really down badly. But Marty and Brian DePauw, And then that but that was a big hit right? Yeah, that went really down badly, but but Marty in front and Brian the pump. Yeah They they got it. They got it. Yeah, they must have had it before Yeah, just trying to feel me out seeing what I was gonna. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I said no way

And you weren't gonna work or what? What was the line? I don't know. I was saying listen, let me talk to you guys. And if you still feel the same way after I talk to you, sat there and talked for 45 minutes, because we blew the day. $200,000 that cost. The heads of Universal. Yeah, they were like, fuck this guy.

This kid, oh my. But she knows nothing but trouble. Yeah, oh my God. And that string of movies, it is so funny in the book is you like after you did Bobby Deerfield with Pollock You thought it was over? Yeah And that happened many times. Yeah, but you know Any time still happens. Well, you know on well, I mean, but it was I think a little different with the level of

Well, I mean, but it was I think a little different with the level of Starness that was happening that you know that the idea that you do one flop and it's fucking over. Yeah but I guess I don't think they do remember the scene where I Think that I went to the first lawn to those people that were there the Oscar night and started calling them and saying I Didn't go to the Oscars not because I thought I was cheated out of being the lead. Yeah over Marlon Brando. Yeah, no Yeah, I went I didn't go because I had other feelings and sometimes I was going through things Yeah, and I was doing a play in Boston at the same time and I was afraid I

Felt so I felt so out of place at the Oscar. Yeah, but I was afraid, I felt so out of place at the Oscars. But I was young still, and still those kind of things. I didn't realize you go to a thing like that. Suck it up. Suck it up, because this is what's happening to me. And I ran from it. But then I wouldn't go because I didn't get the lead with Brando, I mean it's just,

and that's what was in the air for years. That you were this. That I was a snob and I was stuck up. And you were really just nervous and shy. That's right. When I would go to the Oscars. Going nuts for whatever reason. Yeah, and I saw some, I would go to the Oscars

and they were shocked when I went for Serpico. They were shocked to see me there. But you had to medicate yourself to the point where they were shocked. When I went for Serpico, they were shocked to see me there. Pete Slauson But you had to medicate yourself to the point where you were nuts. Jeff Bridges Oh my God, I was nuts. I was drugging and drinking and I was in a state of absolute – Pete Slauson And you didn't like to fly? There was all these other issues.

Jeff Bridges It goes on and on and on. I was with Diane and I ran out of jokes to tell her because she'd be laughing the first hour. But then there was two more hours to follow. I couldn't tolerate. What was that, but what did you say to Jeff Bridges? I said to him, I turned to him, I didn't know him at the time. And you know, he's a great actor and he was there.

And also he's a Hollywood guy too. Sure, yeah, I grew up there. I don't know why I'm saying to him. And he looks at me and I said, I just was wondering what's going to happen if not an hour is up and they're not getting to the best actor. And he looked at me, I mean he looked at me as though I was in some, who is this person?

And he looked at me, he said, it's three hours. That's the game. That was all he said. I said, oh, thank you. Three hours. I thought, I got to sit here for two more hours. And I know for sure I'm going to lose. And then I keep going and popping those Valium pills. And with Diane back and forth, and in days, and Elizabeth Taylor comes out, we're all

standing up, and I'm sitting down, and then it dawns on me. What if I win? What if I win? I don't have a speech, I don't have anything except I'm ossified. How do I get to the stage? How do I go up the stairs? I'll fall down.

It's all these things are going on in my mind. I just said, you know how it happens, Al, when you're in these situations. They always go fucking wrong. You know that. And you're going to win tonight. I have these two sides of my brain going at it And that was for Serpico. Yeah. Yeah, and when they called they didn't call your name, right? When they didn't I was sitting there. Yeah, I thought it was so

Utterly my body was painting. I was in a panic. Yeah, I didn't know what was gonna happen Yeah, and and when I hear the name Jack lemon. Yeah And when I hear the name, Jack Lemmon! I was paradise. I saw paradise. I breathed. Imagine the phony I must have looked like, and all so happy about Jack Lemmon. And you're just happy it wasn't you.

I was just happy it wasn't me. The assumption is like he's just pretending because he wanted to win, but you're like, thank God. Oh my God. Now, you tell that story and people think, what the hell win, but you're like, thank God. Oh my God. Now you tell that story and people think, what the hell's wrong with you? The Oscars, everything. Of course it is, but I didn't,

it wasn't, you know how it is, you get to a point, and I was at that point, because if you're not rolling around in the business, as you know, you're not thinking about things like that, and you can come off kind of snobby. But I just didn't know that world that much. Oscar, it was fine. But I got nominated, that's a big deal.

And people are coming to see me. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I said, well, it didn't have a Oscar. When did you get one? I got it when, I was going to say, I got got it when I didn't deserve it as most of us do You know if you're around enough, and you think I was I didn't get it. Yeah, then I got it for what a scent of a woman. Oh And I thought I really thought

that that was I I really thought that that was, I thought there's a chance. And I think I got up a little bit more into the world a little bit. I was... Playing the game a bit. I was in the game a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's so interesting to me because I did a screening of Dog Day. I screened it at the Arrow.

Yeah. Because they wanted a podcast, there's the American Cinematheque reached out to some of us, and said, you want to host tonight? You want to host tonight? What are the movies? I put Dog Day first, McCabe and Mrs. Miller.

Oh, I love that too. Right, and in Paris, Texas, I think. And they're like, we got Dog Day. I'm like, holy shit. And to see that in a fucking movie theater? Yes. Oh my God. See what Sidney Lumet does in that film.

On the outside, it's all dialogue, too. And Kazaa, how do you say it? And Johnny Kazaa. Oh my God, you guys. But you know, it's funny, I get a message on Instagram from a woman who was an assistant editor on that movie. And she said, I got a story. Do you know this story?

Tell me. Her name, I make sure I got it. Nancy Cantor, does that ring a bell? She's the assistant. Didi Allen. Didi Allen was the editor. This is her assistant, right? And it was her job to get the first cut of the film

to the screening room at the Gulf and Western Building. And you hadn't seen it and Gwemet hadn't seen it. She's got the only cut and the film to the screening room at the Gulf and Western Building, and you hadn't seen it and Lumet hadn't seen it. She's got the only cut, and she's taking it up there, and she's got the canisters, and she's hailing a cabin to get run over by a bus. So she thinks she's out, it's over, she wants to get on a plane and leave the country, and she brings these crushed canisters up to the theater,

and the projectionist and her re-spool it. Wow. So you guys could see it. And you had no idea, you're like, all right, we're gonna watch the movie. And this woman's like, my life is on the line here. Isn't that crazy? So I had her come up and tell that story.

It was terrific. That's great. But when you look back at that movie, because like I feel, you know, when you look at the, you know, all the stuff, like that was the rawest most vulnerable thing That I'd ever seen and I'm in the context of all the roles you've had you feel that way about it Yes, yes, I did sure because it's all you're all out. You're all out there. Yeah

Yeah, oh my god in that moment John. He's like you remember when you said you're gonna shoot. Oh my god John, he's like, you remember when you said you were gonna shoot him? Oh my God, yeah. Oh my God. So the thing we picked, Johnny and I, was we just said, hey look, we don't know each other that well. That was a key.

We're not friends. Me and Johnny were very close. As the two characters, the two characters, we said, how about they don't know each other that well? Yeah, right, they did. Yeah, they're finding out as it's going along. You know what's interesting about that movie is how funny it is.

Yeah, it's funny, yeah. You know, like, I'm sure Lumet knew that. Yeah. That, you know, right from the beginning, the guy was like, I can't do this. What do you want me to do with the gut right away? Like you know I gotta go and you're like what are you it's a it's a comedic I think when when sitting the mat directs. Yeah, he directs. He tells you where to go Yeah, so if you do what he says yeah, and you're doing what he said told you to do. Yeah, you're robbing a bank

Yeah, you don't know how you got there, but you're in a robbery because he orchestrates it. That's the genius of him. And we had no scene for the end. It was a phone call because they wanted, the play started when we read it, it was dressing as Marilyn Monroe. Oh right, well, you're,

and I said that's not, Sarah Andon's part. He's gonna make a scene. we read it, it was dressing as Marilyn Monroe. Oh, right, well, you're the... And I said, that's not... Sarandon's part. Yeah. He's gonna make a scene. That's not the way it happened. In the dress, yeah. So Sydney said to both of us,

we had been in it long enough that we knew our characters and we were talking in a way. You and Sarandon. Me and Sarandon. He turns on a tape recorder and he says, go. Yeah. We do three takes of that scene. But that scene where you're like, how you doing?

On the phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We do three takes of it. He takes all three takes. He cuts them up and puts it into that scene, which was 14 minutes long. Yeah, that phone call. It was like a beautiful thing.

Yeah, it was amazing. He's doing it on the floor of the banquet room while we're shooting. Yeah. Editing it. Editing it. Putting it together. So, originally it was scripted that Sarandon's character would come out and make a scene and address it, and you thought that was inappropriate to the character. It didn't really happen. It didn't happen that way. And it was a spectacle. Yeah. It would have diminished the integrity of the thing. Yes, exactly. And you said that. Yeah. Again, you're like, you didn't really happen. It didn't happen that way. And it was a spectacle. Yeah. It would have diminished the integrity of this thing. Yes, exactly.

And you said that. Yeah. Again, you're like, you can't do this. Yeah. I'll always, I can't get over it. I'm learning to just keep my mouth shut, you know, like. But I've seen more things that I've, you know, when I see the film that I regret I didn't speak up.

Yeah. Not that it would have been any better or not. I don't know that, but I know it didn't feel right. Right, sometimes it'd be better. And I watched Cruising recently, I watched Injustice for All recently. I talked to Friedkin before he passed. Uh-huh, yeah, great director.

It was something, huh? That movie was something. Like, I watched it and it held up, but you know, it was an interesting thing because I know there was pushback from the gay community about the characterization of that community. But what was interesting with Friedkin's, whatever his understanding of it was,

so there was a moment in that movie, and I liked the movie because I liked the ending and I liked that you're carrying, it must have been something for you to work with, like you know, at the end of it. I felt a little funny about it when I saw it. Yeah, no, there is something, a little much, because you walk into that one bar,

and it's like, wow, what isn't going on in here? Oh my God. There's a guy in a harness, there's a guy doing this, there's a guy doing that, like, it's all here. Yeah, it was a little much. But I thought the character at the end was interesting, where you don't know who you are. Yeah.

But yeah, we talk a little bit about Scarface. But then, and we won't stay here forever, but I'm glad you're patient with me. I am very patient. It's great talking to you. I love it. And just as for all, in the book, your sense of it was not what it became.

It's quite a great movie. It is, it seems to work. Right, but you were surprised with people walking around the streets going, you're out of, I'm out of work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they picked that up, like with Attica, the same thing. You get these little books.

You know how Attica came out, you read the book, you know how I say Attica. I'm about to go on, we're in the bank and they're calling outside, I gotta go on and talk to the cops and with the big crowds. And as I'm going out, this great AD named Burt Harris comes up to me. And he grabs me and says, Al, I made Serpico with him. I've been, you know, I know them. And he just says, Al.

I said, yeah, he says, say Attica. Say Attica. Because Attica was a big deal at that time. They invaded the prison, they killed prisoners. And I said, say Attica. He says, yes, Attica, go, push with me. So I go out there, I'm out there a little while. All of a sudden I pick up the idea that something's going on

and I just say, Attica, what about Attica? Remember Attica? And all of the audience, all the extras, hundreds of them start screaming, yes, Attica! And the whole thing starts going crazy. It was, that's the thing with film. These are kinds of things you can do. I'll tell you you got the most I ever Seen anybody get out of Charles Durning, you know when you're out there

Oh, you're doing that dance with him, you know, it's almost like a dance. No, no, no, no. Come here. Yeah. Yeah Oh my god, and you have to understand Sydney LeMette rehearses. Yeah. Oh really? So you were weeks so big difference big difference. We were a cast. And that thing happened to you again with the whoo-ha. You know, you said in the book that you're preparing for the scent of a woman. That's right. And where that came from, which is another one of those things where people going around saying, whoo-ha. Yeah. Yeah. But you got it because the Marine who was showing you how to assemble and disassemble a.45, blind. And when I would do it relatively right,

he would say, huh, whop, bah, like that. I said, what is that? That's wonderful. He says, yeah, you know, we say it on the lines. When the rifles go to the shoulder and everybody stands, whop, I said, wow. That's going in. That's going in a lot.

Yeah, went in a lot. I threw it in any time I was in trouble. Whoah, I get right out of it. But it was interesting too to me that, you know, after revolution tanked, that you again, you felt like you were out of the game game I just didn't want to do this anymore because I was my reaction yeah to what happened at Scarface was I was like I was surprised that it had that reaction audiences liked it so it took a while though and Warren Beatty told you like

yeah you know it could take a while That's right And it was interesting because it wasn't until the the black community locked in exactly hip hop Yeah, just got they understood it. They embraced it the rappers. Yeah, and then the next thing, you know, VHS is going out Yeah, and and more people are saying it plus there were on the records Yeah, I mean it, and then it just carried. And it kept going and going. They had a showing of it at the Arrow. Yeah, was it good? Man, I couldn't believe it. I tell you, Bernard Rose, who's directing Lear,

Kim Lear for me, he is there to interview me. He's a real, it's a good outfit. and Lear, King Lear for me, he is there to interview me. He's a real, it's a good outfit, that outfit. And so I was shook up seeing it on a big screen. And the reaction. And what I was doing in that part, I don't know what the hell was a matter with me. What happened to me?

What do you mean? I was so, I don't know, I've never been that committed to a role. I mean, I was there, I said, I am this guy. And I was living, I was in love then, I was with Kathleen Quinlan. She and I were really, it was lifesaver for me. Every time coming home, you know, it's tough to be in a room with a lot of smoke and being in a lot of blood

on you all day for 12, 14 hours. You come home and she would tell me about her day, which was so great. I just saved my life. Saved my life. I just listened to her about her day. I just, what happened to you? You know?

I was in a, you know, I started coming home like that doing Lir, I must say. Maybe it's a good sign, I don't know. I would finish a day's work in the way we were doing. Yeah. Because we did Lir now for 400 BC, it's supposed to be. Yeah, yeah. So. And so you had, but that,

And I'd come home and I could not move. Yeah. But those scenes where you're just like at the end, where you're just like putting your nose right into the blow. They're like the yay-o. And you're like, you're out of your mind. Yeah. To play it that jacked up.

Yeah. Was Coke ever your thing? Never. I have to say it. Nobody believes me, so I'll say it anyway. It is the truth. I never had Coke in my life. Oh, it's so good that you figured it out.

I was all about something that was gonna depress this energy of mine. The nervous energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I needed the calm of it. It's interesting, the women in your life, though, because it seems like after you decided you were out, that Diane Keaton was like, you gotta do something.

Oh, man, what a great something. What a great person, what a great person. And that thing she did when, I lost all my money twice. The first time was when I was with her and I decided I was quitting. And then I realized after four years, after a few years, I realized I had to get back because I didn't have money.

And then that's that scene with the lawyer in the office when she's talking to the lawyer and she says, you know who he is? He says, no, you know who he is, meaning me. And he says, yeah, I know who he is. You know who he is? Who do you think he is? Oh, you're gonna tell me he's an actor, he's an artist, whatever.

No, no, he's an idiot. And he's looking at me, I'm looking at him. She's got him up against a wall, what she said. And it's just, you're here to help him. He doesn't know this stuff. It was beautiful. And that's when you got the accountant and that all, the crooked accountant?

Or was that the? That was the first one. Somebody put me into something, whatever happens. I didn't know, I had no idea about it. But when I had the kids and everything, and a family and all that stuff starts, and then I'm making a fortune. Maybe I was making them, you know,

then that scene where the accountant comes over. He says, you're good. How can I have this much money? I said, how can I have the same amount of money I had when I just spent 500 grand traveling around. I was out of my mind, airplane. I said, what's going on? And then his right eyebrow just like, just flick it.

And I said, yeah. I said, I'm fucked. I knew it. Next day I went to a lawyer, I said, I think something's going on. And the lawyer was great. And he set me up with some guy in New York who was account for the Rockefellers.

And we met and talked, and then he met the guy. in New York who was accounting for the Rockefellers. And we met and talked and then he met the guy. The next thing you know, yeah, I quit. And he's into FBI, comes and gets him. And they put him away for Ponzi scheme. Seven years. Yeah, didn't help you. No, not much.

Cause he wasn't insured. But what's interesting in the turn in terms of how you looked at your job, like once you needed to support the family and you realized you were fucked, you had to shift your perspective on what acting is. That's right. And you had to say like, all right, well, you know, I know how to do this and now unfortunately, I got to do it for money. Yes. And you did. And I did.

But you know, this good stuff, right? Dick Tracy had a good time, see you love. I didn't know that yet with for money. Yes. And you did. And I did. But you know, this good stuff, right? Dick Tracy had a good time, Sea of Love. I didn't know that yet with Dick Tracy. I still thought I had money. Oh, it wasn't, what was it? There was Warren's film, which, you know, Warren is the greatest, he's the greatest person. Yeah, and I liked it.

And director, and genius. And then, well, The Godfather 3, so this happened, like what, after, after the Scent of a Woman? After Sea of Love. Sea of Love came out, it was a huge hit. That was the first thing I had done in four years. Oh my God. And they didn't pay me at all for it.

They paid me a couple, but I didn't get a back end. Made a fortune. And then I got into Godfather. Three. Part of the reason too was I needed some money. I needed to have it. And I did got some money. And so Francis too, I think he needed it.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had one kid. I didn't have my own kids. I had one kid I was taking care of. What'd you think of three? I don't think it got there. I think this new thing that Francis did with it where he, it's called the death of Michael Corleone, it's a little different.

When it first came, Bob DeVal was in it and Yeah, and he had some sort of problem Yeah, and he left and when he left and it changed the whole story because Michael goes to the Vatican. Yeah Because his brother right Bobby DeVal. Yeah, it's been killed Yeah, and he's sussing it out. Yeah, and that's why he's there. And he starts making deals with the church, an entirely different deal. Then what happened? What happens is he goes to church on a Sunday, Michael and his family, he comes out and he's shot

right outside the church. That's how it ends? Yeah, he rolls down the stairs, and Diane comes up to him, Keaton him pulls him and he says Michael Michael Michael are you dead and Michael looks at her and says no and dies yeah but that didn't make the cut that didn't make the cut but there was another thing from that movie where people started repeating they they keep pulling me back in. Oh yeah, that's true, that's true.

You know, obviously you can't, we can't get into everything, but Heat must be monumental. I watch that again, because I interviewed Michael Mann. Oh yeah. And I've watched Heat a couple of times. What a great fucking movie.

But I wouldn't have known about the cocaine thing. You know? I know. And he cut that out, and you built the whole character around cocaine. I did. A lot of people didn't know that, but I'm sure, I knew it took me 20 years

before I could say a thing about it. But I don't think, I think there was a reason he had to doing it. This is a wired character I'm playing anyway. But he did chip cocaine. Not the real guy, that I don't anyway. But he did chip cocaine. Not the real guy, that I don't know. But the character I composed. And there's a scene in the film

when I'm going into the club where you actually see me do it. Yeah, and he took it out. Took it out? Yeah. He had his reasons, I'm sure. I wouldn't have noticed it. I mean, I wouldn't have put it together till read it Yeah, but there's so many great movies like, you know, dude, you know, you know, there's always the great movies like I love devil's advocate

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, your friend of mine did some of the Did some of the writing in it for me? Yeah, but they're seeing the elevator with the woman with the mother. Oh my god I mean to play the devil that's a way, I love that. Yeah. I love that. But I think Brasco was another one where you really kind of like, you had to do the work. Well, you know, in a way, because sometimes I got accused of doing gangster films. I said, well, look, I try to do... You can't compare Scarface to Michael Corleone. No. Nor can you make that guy Lefty, who Jario compared to Carlito's way. Right, and Donnie Brasco?

And Donnie Brasco. Yeah. They're different people. They're all different people. I said I would only do Gangster if it was a different people. But Brasco was such a beautiful character. I mean, really, just something else. The director, who director again?

Michael, he was really such a sweetheart. But just the humanity of that guy, Michael Newell. Michael Newell said, this is a love story. It reminded him of something, the two of them. And you feel the connection between Johnny and I. Yeah, yeah. But that scene where you know you're gonna be killed and you're putting your watch away? Holy shit. How deep into it were you? I just go there. Yeah. What would happen to me? Yeah. What would I do? Yeah? And always, it may not happen, but what if it did?

Well, that's interesting, and I know I'm saying that a lot, but at the end of the book, you grew to be able to accept that. Sometimes you get there and sometimes you don't, but you're good enough to know that maybe you're the only one that knows. Yes, exactly right. So if you're not happy with it, you just keep your mouth shut.

And maybe people think it's. But I was happy with that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was. But what I was saying really is the character himself doesn't know. Right. Thinks it's going to happen. Isn't. Yeah. But it's going to happen. Yeah. Right. But it didn't happen that way in life. And this is a true story. Yeah, but they added.

They added this. Sure. It's the movies. And then again, like as we move towards the end, where you start doing these, the Paterno, the Phil Spector, the Kevorkian, I mean, you got into those guys. Yeah.

And were those money gigs, or did you like Levenson? No, those were gigs. David Mamet did that,re, which I liked that movie. And Mamet did Glengary, Glengar, Ross, which you did a lot. A lot of different characters. And you talk about getting older and being Levine as opposed to the other guy.

Oh yeah. And you're just like out of your mind. I just said, wait a minute, because Jack Lemmon is great in Glengarry. Yeah, yeah, sure. It's a great performance. Yeah. And I remember, well, it's Mammoth, so I'll do it. Yeah, yeah.

And I went there, and I'm not a short, how do you short rehearse Glengarry? You can't. Yeah. The words, before the words even. So I had a hard time with that learning and stuff. Yeah. But time went on.

I loved the guys I worked with. Yeah, yeah. And then I did something that you'll understand. At one point I said, wow, I don't feel right about this speech when I went to the kids and stuff. And I've been doing it and trying it. And I said, I'm just gonna say it in my own words. Uh-huh.

So I start saying, this is with Mammoth, I start saying it in my own words, what happened? Maybe some of his words were in it. Yeah. And I'm doing it, and he comes with his wife. And they come to the dressing room after. And there he is, and his his wife and they're just excited about this character I've just played.

The improvising. I don't think he knew that I was improvising. Oh, thank you. Isn't it a strange, it's such a strange world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, with plays, theater and words. And what about these movies that you directed? There was this string of stuff that came out in the box set.

Yeah, there's Chinese coffee. I got to a point where I wanted to preserve some of the films, the stories I did on stage. I wanted to put them in a little box to keep them in a legacy chart somewhere, because they're things I liked. It was saying some, the writers I liked. I liked Ira Lewis and what he was talking about, the 80s,

and the bygone era of the 60s, where friendship and... Which show was that? It was called Chinese Call. Yeah, yeah. It was, I thought, a beautiful... Yeah, and the stigmatic. And then there's local stigmatic, which my friend, Heathcote Williams, who thought, oh, beautiful. And the stigmatic. And then this local stigmatic,

which my friend, Heathcote Williams, who's gone now, had written who was Pinta's protege. Pinta saw the film twice, brought it to London. I was a big fan of it. And I keep it undercover a little bit. I showed it to Elaine May at one point. And I said, what do you think and she said wow I think it's good out it's good but yeah don't open it don't put it out there really she says you don't you don't know

who you are oh and it could you don't know how famous you are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I thought oh, huh? Okay But things changed that was about Ten fifteen years ago. Yeah, and then the other one was the Oscar Wilde then the Oscar was Salome's yeah Jessica Chastain. Yeah, it was in Lear with me. Oh, she's back. Yeah, and she did Jessica's a big star.. I'm why not? You have interview. She's amazing. And it's like you use you use her you were in When she was very young, so yeah, I sort of discovered her. Yeah, she always tells the world I did. Oh, yeah Yeah, but she any she'd be discovered by any. Yeah, you take a look at this girl Yeah, my god, and then the Richard Richard II and your mission to get people to understand

shit. Richard III. Richard III. Yeah. I did Looking for Richard. Looking for Richard. I won the director's award. There you go. The Guild Award. Yeah. I like to say that because there's a whole section in my book where I go to this party and hear how we're in Los Angeles. I start to think we're in New York. We go to a big party, remember it? And I'm talking and none of the people have even heard of looking through it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's also where you learn that why parties end at 10 in Hollywood. Yeah, oh God, that's something. Because people, they're afraid they're gonna get drunk and say something to the wrong person. There I was at one of those parties, I went to another one of them, and some very well-known actress is there, and she's kind of toddling, she's weaving a little.

I'm leaving, and there I see her, I say, hello, how are you doing? She says, I think I said the wrong thing. And she was upset. To the wrong person. Yeah, devastated. Devastated, you know, I mean, she said it out of drunkenness or trying to.

Did she end up all right? Yeah, she ended up fine. Okay. I think, I don't know, she did. Yeah, yeah. When I think of it, yeah, she was okay. So, but the is all right what happens? Yes suddenly? Superficiality just starts creeping in a little bit you start saying things you you know, I really mean

Yeah, real talk. Yeah, but this run that you've had with the Irishman and with house of Gucci went with the once upon a time And how it was that's fun, right? Yeah. Well, a lot of that is, these people I know, like Leo and they're so great. And I did it with Tarantino, it was great because I knew him in life and then working with him was, you know. I interviewed him. Wasn't there something weird with your dads? Both our dads? Yeah.

I don't know. Oh. If there was, I don't know about it. Oh, oh. It might have been, because my dad moved out here when. Right, I think he like, he teamed up with Tarantino's dad. And then. No, that was another thing.

Oh. There was the, all of a sudden they were the, I don't know what they called themselves. They had a video of exercise and looking. Puccino and Tarantino. Yeah. Yeah, no not Tarantino Stallone. Oh Hoffman Dustin Hoffman. Yeah, and Pacino. Yeah that those three were on some exercise video. Yeah It didn't really get it didn't it didn't make it into your world though, yeah you know, I

You can't make it into your world though. You don't know it. I, you know, this is this world. Anything happens. You just take it. You just say. All right, so now you're doing Lear and it's exciting and you're working. You're busy.

Yeah, I'm just going to, you know this thing. I'm working, am I? Yeah, I think I am. I just, I'm doing, you know I've gotten almost six films. Yeah. I've done. Yeah. They haven't been out yet.

That's exciting. You got a baby. I do. I'm done with everything. No, but these films have been hanging around awhile, so I'm hoping that they'll get out. They'll get out. Yeah, yeah.

A couple of them are, you know, I think okay. And others, you can't tell, but I've been taking smaller roles. Yeah except for His thing I did in Vegas with Vince Vaughn. Yeah, it was absolutely great and it's a performance that He's quite capable. Yeah. Yeah, he really is but and then I haven't seen it Yeah, but I loved working with yeah. Yeah, and the director the the I haven't seen it, but I loved working with him. And the director wrote the script and it was great.

Oh, good. He did the first True Detective, the first series. Oh, that was great. Yeah, I loved that show. And then I know you talked about this a bit out in the world, but this experience you had with COVID and dying for a minute. How about that one? Yeah. It's a very...

Well, you know, I thought I died and I believed I died, but I didn't. How could I have? Because I was talking to the guy who was feeding me intravenously. He didn't want me to dehydrate, so he had me on that. Fluids. Fluids. So I I'm getting fluids and I Liked him this guy was really nice, and I forgot his name. You know that happens some So you're trying to think of his name. I wish I could call him by his name. He was a paramedic No, he was a work for it was a nurse okay, and he's from the the Czech country

Yeah, and I want to talk to him, And I was thinking about what his name was, and I was gone. That was the last thing, last thought I had. Blacked out. I was gone. And the woman that was the nurse there said, he has no pulse. Yeah.

And Michael, who you met, who's outside, my quinn, my guy, and he just called the ambulance, called the police and everything. And I'm probably there, who knows? When I opened my eyes, there were five paramedics in my living room and two doctors with the whole, everything all over, they looked like spaceman yeah

spacesuits yeah not that you know I was you know you know yeah yeah and and I'm looking at this and I look around and there's an ambulance outside the door yeah now from the time the nurse told Mike that I was I had no pulse yeah to work by the time all of them got together and got dressed up Yeah, how to be what five minutes right? I couldn't be out for five minutes. Yeah, you would be brain damage I would of course. Yeah two minutes one minute. I think I have a problem. I might have been out I But every time I was out, I probably had a very light pulse. Yeah, but but ultimately Got me pulse. Yeah, but ultimately... It got me thinking.

Yeah. You know the thing where he says, and Hamlet's to me or not to me, he says, no more. No more. This life, no more. Now they got me all over the internet saying that. I think I'm telling you, if the world is no afterlife,

as if I've been there. I mean, my God, you can't say anything you say or now I never talk. See, so many things. It's so funny. Yeah, because he didn't see any white light. He didn't see nothing. No, no. I didn't see anything. It was so funny because my buddy Bob Odenkirk, who had a heart attack and actually died on

the table for a minute, you know, I texted with him and he says you know there's no white light there's no nothing follow the money don't there's no white light yeah I can't verify that okay not sure good so this is where I'm concerned when you faint sometimes yeah yeah no I had blacked out and I thought like well if that's it you don't wake up you're not gonna know the difference there it is but candle yeah well I guess so we've slightly corrected it the public Yeah, no, I had blacked out and I thought like, well, if that's it, you don't wake up, you're not gonna know the difference. There it is. It's the candle. Yeah, well, I guess so we've slightly corrected it, the public discourse with this show. Yeah.

That, you know, you're... No, I think I was okay. I think I was... Good, good. I like to dream. I dream every night. So far, when I stop dreaming, I'll let you know. All right. Thanks, Al. Great talking to you. Oh, great talking to you. Thanks, babe. There you go.

I turned the mics off and he said, that's it? I felt like you had to go somewhere. I'm like, no, we've done an hour and a half. You might have to go somewhere. That book, Sunny Boy, the memoir, is available now. Hang out for a minute. I travel around a lot and if you if you travel like I do, I know something that's probably on your mind is money. You've got to think about how much you're spending on travel and food and

lodging. Well, here's a tip. When you're away from your place, host it on Airbnb. You won't have to worry about money while you're away. You'll be making it and virtually any space can be an Airbnb, an extra bedroom, a guest house, even your whole home. It's easy to do and it's a great way to earn some extra cash. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. We're in the midst of a global mental health crisis and although awareness about mental

health is growing, there are also significant public needs for care that are going unmet. That's why CAMH, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health, is rising to the challenge. As someone who struggled with addiction, I know there's no way to get through it alone. CAMH is improving treatment and inspiring hope with life-saving research discoveries, building better mental health care for everyone to ensure no one is left behind. Visit camh.ca slash wtf to hear stories of hope and recovery. Folks, this week's bonus episode on the Full Marin is a very rare recording of a trip I took to the United Record Pressing Factory in Nashville back in 2013. The super chunk fluorescent orange record coming off a press.

I love that it feels like real manufacturing being done by real people. Cause it is. In America, it's rare American manufacturing. Great. That's unbelievable. I feel like it's a bakery. I feel like I'm witnessing the baking of something.

Something amazing. There are the records, they're beautiful. Yeah, you could go right to Turin Table. I get to listen to them in my office when they're fresh. Still hot. You can listen to that episode and all our bonus material by signing up for the full Marin.

To subscribe, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. Next week we have director Robert Zemeckis on Monday and country star Keith Urban on Thursday. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. I got to give you some guitar from the vault because it's just too early here to kick out the jams. I'm just a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a

I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a I'm a little bit of a So Boomer lives! Monkey, La Fonda, cat angels everywhere.