WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1598 - Jesse Eisenberg

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

Not too many guests come into the garage and tell Marc he changed their lives forever. In fact, Jesse Eisenberg might be the only one. Jesse and Marc go over that formative moment and what it says about both of them. Jesse also talks about being terrified as a child, growing into an adult who identifies with bleakness, and turning some of his life experiences into the new film A Real Pain, which he wrote, directed and stars in alongside Kieran Culkin. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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So glad I brought some crickets. Bring your whole family. Come on, Mufasa. Let's get in some trouble. On December 20th, a kingdom of adventure awaits. We can do this. We're busy. Let's hustle. Disney's Mufasa the Lion King in theaters and IMAX December 20th. Alright, let's do this. How are you?

What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. How's it going?

Today, I talked to Jesse Eisenberg. I'm sure you know him. He's an actor, he's a writer, he's a director. You know him from the social network, The Squid and the Whale, Zombieland. He's a regular contributor to The New Yorker and he is a published playwright. He's the writer and director of the new movie, A Real Pain, which he stars in along with Kieran Culkin. I thought it was enjoyable. I thought it was good. I thought it was well written. I thought it was well acted. I like that Kieran Culkin guy and I like him and Jesse together. I will recommend the movie. If that means anything to you, it's a good watch. It's a tight movie.

I'll get this out of the way, too. It's a good watch. It's a tight movie. I'll get this out of the way too. It's fine. This week I'm at Largo in Los Angeles on Friday, December 13th for a comedy and music show. We're going to play some songs and have some comics and I'll do some comedy and some singing. Then I'm in Sacramento, California at the Crest Theater on Friday, January 10th. I'll be in Napa at the Uptown Theater Saturday, January 11th. I'm in Fort Collins, Colorado, Lincoln Center Performance Hall on Friday, January 17th. Then Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater

on Saturday, January 18th. I'll be in Santa Barbara, California at the Lobero Theater on Thursday, January 30th. Then San Luis Obispo, California at the Fremont Center on Friday, January 31st. Monterey, California at the Golden State Theater on Saturday, February 1st. There's a lot of other dates coming. Oklahoma, Kansas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas.

Just go to WTFPod.com slash tour and you can see the whole list. You can see it all, all right? Okay, so look, a lot of things happened last week. Some of them fairly monumental. I can list them for you if you give a shit. I know the world is a difficult place and there's a foreboding, a horrendous black cloud of dread at the hearts of many reasonable people, but I am trying to continue to live my life. I got an email from a guy and I think it's kind

of a life changer and this guy's not a pro therapist or assessor of psychological things. I'll just read this to you. But this guy, Cameron, he says, I want to comment on the ADHD narcissism thoughts that you've been openly sharing and your recent interview with Rosemary DeWitt where you commented that listeners are suggesting ADHD. It could be ADHD. Your stories often support this. I'm not about to suggest this,

but speaking to a qualified evaluator is always an option. But on the idea of self-centeredness and ADHD, this idea of how one can be so focused on self and have so much doubt, you are right, narcissists don't experience doubt. I'm a coach that works with super creative leaders and business owners, most having an ADHD diagnosis. I also have ADHD. One consistent complaint from their life partners and employees is that they seem so self-centered.

And the narcissism question can come up, so they could be narcissists and have ADHD, but this is extremely rare. So why are these people with ADHD accused of being self-centered? Now, look, I know I'm reading this whole thing, but you got to understand something. I don't personally, I don't even know what I would do with a diagnosis and I can't tell you that I'm going to go

to a professional evaluator. I don't know whether I care whether I have ADHD or not, because I'm probably not going to medicate. It's just my nature. I'm a guy who is very cognitively oriented therapeutically. I believe in contrary action and acting as if. And through repetition, I find that the new neural pathways are kind of opened up, plowed, carved out. That's just my belief. But let's get back to this because there's something about this, maybe helpful to you, but it was certainly an amazing breakthrough for me.

Just the information here. He says, the main dilemma with ADHD is getting access to our task network, the place we make decisions and identify, prioritize, and execute tasks. We then spend a lot of time in the meaning making part of the brain, the default of the decisions and identify, prioritize, and execute tasks. We then spend a lot of time in the meaning-making part of the brain, the default mode network. I often say we are wired for context. When we consider new information, the first thing we do is ask, how does this relate to me?

So this in and of itself is kind of a mind mindblower for me because that is how I take in everything. And I never thought I was narcissistic. And I actually made a decision to shift my comedy through that lens entirely no matter what I'm talking about. And I think everyone kind of does this, but not with everything. So he goes on, We are attempting to orient ourselves to the new information, but what it looks like is self-centered behavior, in part because it is, but it's not because of narcissism. Back to the incessant experience of doubt and dread. People with ADHD's self-concept or sense of self fades when we are not doing the things

that matter most to us. People think of misplacing keys as the example of memory challenges. We misplace our sense of self. Holy fuck! That is like a key to the kingdom, man. So when you perform music at largo, the experience is always better than the thoughts that led up to it. I teach and when I teach, I'm reminded of what matters to me.

Our experience informs our sense of self, providing important feedback loops. Holy shit. This is also why it is hard to get present with an opportunity. We can play out all the different scenarios of how something could go wrong, like you were sharing about the New York gig.

Everyone's ADHD presents differently based on their lived experience. Someone with depression will present differently than someone with anxiety. I mean, the idea that we forget our sense of self, that we misplace our sense of self, that is so fucking fundamentally important to me. Look, I don't know how anyone else can relate to this, but I'm just sharing this because it blew my fucking mind because I think about this stuff all the time.

Why am I not acting like the person I am? Why am I feeling so fragile and like I don't know anything or what I'm doing or, you know, you can say it's fear, but misplacing sense of self when you're not engaged with what it is that you find meaning in. How fucking good is that? This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. And if you're new to Squarespace, I've got good news for you.

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Doubtfully I will find out and I doubt that I would take medication for it because I have adapted in certain ways and it is kind of part of me. I'm not saying that's right for everybody. Maybe it'd be nice to know. I don't know. But this misplaced self business, the misplaced self. Oh my God. I always thought that I was just, you know, well guarded and defensive and scared and all that. It may be that, but it is a very specific feeling this guy talked about. And that kind of leads into my experience in New York. Because like heading into this gig, and we rehearsed.

And then turns out Kevin Bacon was going to be at the gig, so we asked him if he wanted to sing one. He came down, did Run Run Rudolph, the Chuck Berry tune, and then Kingfish, Chris Stone, Kingfish Ingram, he came down, did a couple of songs. He didn't rehearse with us, but the next day we did a run through anyway. So we did the rehearsal, I felt pretty good about it.

All I was thinking about was don't choke, figure it out. You know these songs, figure it out. Don't choke, try to have a good time. Get in the pocket, dude. But more importantly, what happened the night after rehearsal is, look, I haven't gone to the Comedy Cellar much in the last five years. I don't know what it was. There's many reasons why I turned on it. One, you know, it's a place where I started out and I never felt when I was younger that I was necessarily welcome there. I always felt that it was a difficult room.

I always felt judged by Manny and Estie. And I just, it's a little traumatic. And I also thought it got kind of bro-y and I thought maybe I had some enemies there. I've got an old friend that's there a lot and we don't speak. And I was just like, fuck it, I'm not going there anymore. But I used to just like to go to, you know,

to, you know, to hang out with the people, with the comics. And now they've got like four rooms, but anyway, so I'm walking with Menkoff and I'm like, fuck it, I'm going over there. You know, it's like, I, you know, I'm going over there. I'm Mark Maron, I found myself. I'm Mark Maron, I can go there. I'm not like I'm Mark Marin. I can go there. I'm not like some like marginal, well, maybe a little,

but I'm, you know, I paid my dues at that, I'm just gonna go fuck it. I'm gonna go hang out. And I get there and it's kind of crazy. I'm just sitting there and I'm looking at all the four monitors and you know, for some reason, Bobby Lee was there and that was great, Santino was there, Chris Rock is there,

Ari Shafir is there, Darren Aronofsky's hanging out, Attelle comes in, and they asked me if I wanted to do a spot and I haven't set foot on that stage, I swear to God, in 10 years, and I just rose above all this dumb, weird shit from not being there for so long. And I'm gonna use this misplaced self thing because I had to kind of reconfigure who the fuck I am.

I've been doing this my whole fucking life. I went on stage for like 10, 15, I killed it. You know, things, I thought it was gonna be tense as fuck. And it just, it was just normal. It was just people talking. It was just normal. We're all old fucks now, and I guess holding on to these resentments or fears and whatever, or beefs. and whatever, or beefs. I don't know, it was all just, it was like a fucking weight was lifted off of my goddamn back.

I did the set, I saw old friends. I can't say I repaired any friendships, but everything was normal in terms of communicating and hanging out. And it was just sort of like, what a relief. What a relief. And then the gig the next day after that, the gig went great. I never played better than I played on Going, Going, Gone,

the Dylan song that night. And Maddie Weiner went on and killed it. Nimesh Patel went on. Kingfish went on, Bacon was there, Jimmy Vivino, all those. It was just, it was great and I felt really good about it for about a day and then I saw the video and I'm like, ugh, I screwed up that lyric. Oh man, I didn't, I wasn't totally right on that song and then it just started picking at it. But I did have a day or two of just feeling good about it. So that's nice.

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going to simply safe.com slash wtf. There's no safe like Simply Safe. Okay, so here we go. Jesse Eisenberg. A real pain the film is now playing in theaters. Jesse is the writer, director, and co-star of the film. And this is me talking to Jesse. There's so much about Canada's history that you probably don't know. Like the fact that Nunavut was the brainchild of seven Inuit men on a road trip, or that the U.S. is collateral damage from our experiment.

Welcome to season three of Canadian Time Machine, a podcast that unpacks milestones and sometimes uncomfortable truths in our country's history. Your perceptions of this country will change. Your sense of identity might change too. Listen now to Canadian Time Machine. It's available wherever you get your podcasts.

As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month. At FIS, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at fis.ca. You know, we're coming into this talking about animation and he just texted me that we were both Lex Luthor and it's one of those things, dude, like, I don't know how connected you are to animation, but I'm doing that thing and I literally didn't even know really what it was. It was Super Pets or something. Right, right, right.

And I certainly had no idea what the reach of it could possibly be, you know? And I'm just sort of like, you just go to a place and you record the thing and you go home. Right. And then all of a sudden people are like, oh dude! I'm like, what? Oh, I know, I know, and it's such a disconnect

because it's not you. Right, it is. It's weird, right? Totally, so I still get asked to make like little happy birthday videos in the character. I play a bird who can't fly. And so like I'm asked to make- In which one?

It's called Rio. And like I'm asked to make like little videos. Like, and it's so interesting because I so don't associate myself- With that character. Yeah, it's just so hard, especially when you're an actor like us who do regular things.

Well, you do, but you're also detached from that process. The process isn't the same. I mean, I think like when you're in doing the voiceover, you can muster up the emotion. And some people are more natural than others. I'm having a hard time watching that. You know, because like I seem to be the only one that did a voice. Like Sam Rockwell is just talking like himself.

Craig's basically kind of like himself. Got it. And I'm like, hey, what's going on? You know, the whole time. Yeah. And I'm like, why the fuck didn going on? You know, so the whole time, yeah. And I'm like, why the fuck didn't I? Did you just decide on that? Well, I thought I had to do something.

Got it, yeah, that's nice. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But it is straining. Of course. But yeah, you don't feel connected to it because you're not even part of it. They're like, I went over there today

and they're like, everyone's excited, we've been working a year and a half on this. I'm like, I don't know, you just called me every few months. No, I know, especially after being on sets of this. I'm like, I don't know, you just called me every few months. No, I know. Especially after like being on sets of things where it feels like, oh my God, I'm like here for 14 hours a day. I know, it's kind of crazy.

So where do you live generally? I live in New York. In the city? Yeah, in Chelsea. Oh really? Yeah. That's pretty nice. How long have you lived there?

Oh, my wife and I like, I've lived actually there, goodness, 20 years. Really? Yeah. So you've been through it all with New York. I mean, what'd you get that place for a nickel? I mean, 20 years ago, when that sheet. It was a different place and it was,

our first thing was really great for a while. Yeah. No, and now we finally, you know, she won. She won, you know. How long have you been married? Oh, eight years, but we've won. You know. How long you been married? Ooh, I've been married, oh, eight years. But we've been together for a lot, since I mean, I met her when I was 17,

she was my first date. And I am coming on. She is, and she didn't date me for a year, because she was older than me. She didn't date me for a year until I was like of age. Oh, really? Is she older than you? She's older than me.

How much? A bit? She's gonna kill me. Oh, okay. Well, a bit older. Yeah, she's Is she older than you? She's older than me. How much? A bit? She's gonna kill me. Oh, okay. Well, a bit older. Yeah, she's a bit older. Yeah. Yeah. And she waited because she didn't want to break the law. Yeah, exactly. And also, she found me to be, um,

I think my most attractive quality was just, um, unthreatening. And then by the time I was 18, I had a little bit more of a adult physique. Like what you're looking at now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A strapping young man. I'm running off to the sides of the table. I'm threatening. Not threatening.

That's kind of interesting. Because then, like, because the assumption is, you make assumptions, and I've been together a long time, so I imagine you're still not threatening, but, you know, she's got the whole package now. I can't imagine that it's a walk in the park every day. No, no, no, but at least she has somebody who can take care of her in any kind of natural disaster. Oh, that's good.

You can step up. You've got the emergency kit. You're ready to go. I'm actually only good during emergency. I find that too. I'm bad every other time of life. In an emergency for some reason, I come alive. Well, I don bad every other time of life. Why? Emergency for some reason.

I come alive. Well, I don't think it's come alive. I think like, you know, because I'm like an anxious person and my brain's always going. And there's a certain amount of dread and panic and just a kind of like frenetic energy that happens kind of every day. Right. And then when all of a sudden the situation matches that, you're like, oh, I live here. Yes, exactly. Right.

You're built for a war zone and a time of peace. Sure, yeah. You're just like, kind of like, oh yeah, I can step up with this. I remember that with the, I think, at the beginning of the pandemic where it was terrifying, but I'm like, all right, this is what we gotta do. Oh no, I felt more at ease than I've ever felt. Really?

Yeah, of course. Yeah, it was just like things had to be taken care of. Right. And also I wasn't focused on the fantasies in my head, which are all self-destructive nonsense. Or just like, you know, foreboding doom of some kind. Right. But in such vague ways that they're probably never gonna happen

and when something actually does concretely happen, yes, I'm ready for it. Yeah. Um, we admit, but I know you have no recollection of it because it was one of the funniest interactions I've had in my life. Is it okay if I remind you or you hate this when people come on and say, No, no, no. We met. Oh, no, okay.

Okay. I am not, this is not an overstatement. Yeah. At all. Yeah. But your book, The Jerusalem Syndrome, genuinely changed my life. I read it when I was 17 years old, and I have to say it was like perfect timing for me and what I needed. And I talk about it all the time. I mean, for the past, God, I'm 41.

So 24 years, I've been telling the same story, which is a story you told, and I wanted to read it before I came on, but I didn't. So forgive me if I mingle the story, but did you have a friend who worked for like the Pentagon? And- Oh yeah, yeah, Jim.

He worked for the president. And the story you told in this book was so brilliant. You said, you said you had all these conspiracy theories. And I was, again, I was 17 and I was going through a period of like trying to figure out my own kind of like, let's say, intellectual grounding in the world. And would I be the kind of fringy person that I definitely could have been?

Or somebody who's like just kind of sees the world for what it is, is not kind of trying to make myself feel bigger by having an ego about fantasy nonsense. So anyway, you talked about this guy that you were so manic and you visited him in DC and you had this kind of manic episode where you were telling him all this crazy stuff. And he said, he said, Mark, we're not that coordinated. Yeah, people here aren't that organized.

Not that organized. I tell the story all the time because to me, it sums up everything I feel about people who are on the fringes of intellectual thought, which is that like, they suspect all these things are happening in establishment circles. And I'm now in the establishment circle because I work for corporations now. I'm still on the artist side.

And I just see, yeah, it's all still individuals kind of trying to make a day go by. Oddly, that whole section of the book was important to me because I had evolved, there was an arc to my, and it's all in that book, the drugs and whatever and however I broke my mind open and however I was brought up, that there is something about, and now we're living in the time of that, of those fictions winning,

you know, conspiracies and stuff because people want to believe things. Of course. But I like that story too because that was a real moment. And I, you know, and I, you know, I'm still friends with Jim. Yeah, I've known him for years. He still works in and out of politics and stuff. And he's sort of a go-to person when there is a certain amount of panic.

But now, like, the panic is real and we have no fucking idea what the fuck's gonna happen. Right, I guess, yeah, that's interesting. It was a different time. Yeah. So, like, you know, in all those conspiracies, some of those ones that I was locked into are still part of the ones that are popular now,

you know, whether it be Freemasons and this and that. Of course. But it was helpful. But then we met, okay, so this is what happened. I was, again, I was like 17. My friend Gabe and I went to see, I think we've seen you at 78th Street. What is the, is that the store?

Oh, comedy, the comedy stand, oh, Stand Up New York. Stand Up New York, that's it. That's interesting. Standup New York, you were at the bar, you hadn't performed yet, I had just finished your book and I was stoned and I had just finished my first screenplay and I went up to you and I said, I read your book, I'm a huge fan,

do you wanna read my screenplay? And you looked up and you said, why? And I just remember thinking like, oh, I don't have a reason. I guess I just want you to think I'm funny. And I, it just also was like so funny because I get asked to read scripts. I'm like, well, actually I do, but yeah, but it was just such a funny, real response from a famous person who. But that was only famous to you because it wasn't, it wasn't that famous.

I imagine, I don't think I was trying to be an asshole. No, it's more just like what would I do with it is the thing. Exactly. No, no, yeah, you're right. You're right. I guess I just wanted you to know that I'm funny and that's why for years I've just been trying to get on your show. No, no, I just, no, I think that's what it was.

Just a kid wanting an adult to know he's funny. Well, I'm sorry. No, no, no. What were you going to do with it? What were you going to produce? I don't know. Well, what generally happens is if you enter that agreement, then all of a sudden, you know, I'm going to have to give you feedback.

No, of course. And then we're going to have a... We have a lunch. I know, I know. Ruins a week of your life. But I think at that time, I mean, Jesus, like, what was that, early 2000s? What year was that? Before 9-11.

Yeah, so like... It was the summer before. Oh, yeah. So I wasn't—I was out of my mind. Oh, really? Yeah, kinda. I mean, I was, you know, I was scrambling. I wasn't—you know, The Jerusalem Syndrome, that book—I don't know if you would have read it though, because I think that book was sort of— Was it after that? Yeah, it was just a few months after 9-11 that that book came out.

So maybe then—maybe my timeline's wrong. Then maybe— then maybe I met you after 9-11. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But still, I was just trying to make something of myself. That's interesting. Were you aware that people like me saw you as a god amongst us in New York? No, no, no, not at all. I mean, I think at that time, that was like,

I'm not always totally aware of that. And I'm always still kind of shocked when people are like, oh, you really helped me out and all this stuff. Because when you have a certain level of it, I'm not always totally aware of that. And I'm always still kind of shocked when people are like, oh, you really helped me out and all this stuff. Because when you have a certain level of identification, I know I have my people, but it's, I used to do a joke about it, that when you have this sort of mid-level celebrity,

you can walk down the street and then like three people be approaching you. One of them be like, oh my God, Mark Maron. And the other two will be like, no, I don't know. Who is this? Right, right, right, right, right, exactly. So I know they're out there, but I don't think I would have known at that time,

but thank you. Oh yeah, no thank you. Did you grow up in New York? I grew up in Queens, so I was like four, so I didn't really grow up there, I don't remember. I lived in New Jersey in the suburbs. New Jersey? So I was like 18, yeah. Yeah, in near Rutgers, do you know? New Brunswick?

Yeah. Yeah, my dad went to Rutgers. Oh really? Yeah, but I grew up, my whole family's from Jersey. Oh, that's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, Jersey City, Pompton Lakes. So in New Brunswick, so you're in Jersey. You didn't go to Rutgers, did you?

No, no, I didn't. I left New Jersey, like for my senior year of high school, I went to a performing arts high school in New York City. Well, what's the whole background? I left New Jersey for my senior year of high school. I went to a performing arts high school in New York City. And it was like- Well, what's the whole background? Like how are you so, you know, kind of, like what, do you have brothers and sisters? Yeah, I have sisters.

How many? Two, I have two sisters. Younger? Yeah, both. Both younger? No, both sides of me. Oh, you're a middle? Yeah.

And what's your old man do? My old man, he's a teacher. He's a college professor now. Really? Like what does he teach? He teaches, well his expertise was like social psychology, but now he teaches healthcare management. So a lot of his students are people already working

in healthcare that wanna have an MBA in the field. Oh, in like, what does that encompass? Healthcare management. You know, I mean, it's the most complicated systems in this country. Right. So, it would be, you know, navigating not just internal hospital systems, but also the healthcare industry. Oh, wow.

So, that's, so he was an academic when you were very young. Yeah, exactly. And social psychology. Yeah. And he had all those books around? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny. And social psychology. Yeah. And he had all those books around? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny.

He had, we just actually, he just moved and we found all these dusty but like great, great books that, books that I was reading 30 years after him. Right. Isn't that wild? Yeah. Like, but you didn't read them when you were a kid? You weren't? No, I mean, I read them in college because I studied a lot of similar stuff.

Yeah. And so, yeah, it was the same stuff. Yeah, I mean, like, it's interesting, all like in social psychology, the experiments that were done, like, you know, the Zimbardo Stanford Prison Experiment, the shocking experiment with Milgram, these things that were done were the best of its kind

because they were never redone because they were unethical. Right. So in terms of like- Like the Skinner box and that kind of stuff too. That's where they're back, right. No one does this stuff anymore. No, you don't put your kids in a box.

That's right. So like, yeah, so we had the same text essentially, because no one did anything after that. Yeah, and I don't know, did those things get discredited eventually, the Stanford one? Yeah, actually I think they were ultimately discredited. Yeah, I wonder, I can't remember why, but I kind of remember that story. And what did your mom do? My mom was a birthday party clown. So in Jersey, she was...

A birthday clown. Yeah, actually in Tri-State Area, she was a birthday party clown. But that was her gig? That was her job. Yeah. I mean, not her job, it was her. You know, it wasn't like employment. But did she do anything else? No. No, no, no. She was busy. Like, she was busy.

She did Tri-State Area. She was was busy. She did tri-state area. She was really good. She was kind of like, she's kind of like a hippie-ish kind of clown and a Marxist kind of clown. So I think her biggest game was like, you have to lose to win, which at the time was kind of cute, but in retrospect, I realized was just communist propaganda from her parents. Well, yeah, she's the reason that we, you know, we're in trouble now. I know, I know, I know. I know my mom was, she used to do a number about Jill Stein, and so...

I'm not sure Jill Stein is in a birthday clown, but what a... You're not gonna touch that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so you grew up in this environment, like were they kind of post-hippie people? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. They were, yeah, real progressive. Are they like, how old are they? Are they my age? They're 70.

Oh, so they're real boomers and they came from, they're both from New York? Yeah, exactly. My mom was like in a socialist Zionist organization with Bernie Sanders when she was younger. I think he was a little, he was ahead of her. Yeah. And yeah, my dad grew up more kind of working class-ish

in Queens, but my mom was really from a- Both Jewish? Yeah, Jewish. Full Jew. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Yeah, thanks. It's kinda-

I did my DNA. I mean, it's like the most embarrassing- Mine's like 99% Ashkenazi. I'm 99.4 Ashkenazi. Really? Can you believe it? Yeah. I mean, at some point, I mean,

what is the number that's inbreeding? Well, the eye was open for a little Viking. Of course, I was hoping for anything, just something I can brag about or something, but also something to think that I'm not gonna die of some weird illness that is from inbreeding. Well, no, I think we test out for that, other than like the basic heart disease and various cancers.

Right, right, right. I mean, you gotta be really special to get Tay-Sachs, I think. That's true. My wife and I did test for everything. Yeah,, you gotta be really special to get Tay-Sachs, I think. And that's true. My wife and I did test for everything. Yeah, and you're all right? I have three really, really bad things that are unexpressed,

which means like I'm not gonna die for them. But I have something called like Usher's syndrome. What is that? It's a thing where you just bleed out randomly. But like I, the doctor- You have it or you have a genetic predisposition? No, I have these, exactly. The doctor told me it's not gonna happen to you.

But if my wife miraculously had it, our kids would bleed out. Oh, right. So that's the risk. What about the other ones? The other ones, I can't remember the name. Usher's had such a cute little name, so I remembered it.

The others were probably more technical or Latin. But my wife didn't have anything. Oh, good. Clean bill of health. Clean bill of health. Is she Ashkenaz? Yeah, same thing. Same thing. Same thing. Even closer. Her dad is... was born, her dad's Polish,

born in Russia because they were escaping the war. Oh, did you find out, have you ever, I did that show, you know, Finding Your Roots. Oh, did you? Yeah. Where'd you find? Oh my God. They, you know, that guy Gates, you know,

the guy here. Yeah, of course, of course. He was so thrilled because I think they got further back with my patriarch, my dad's, my dad's dad's line. They got further back into the Pale of Settlement than they'd ever gotten before. Are you serious? Yeah. Wait, how, using what?

They have a team of researchers. I don't know how they do it. Wow. But they got back like six or seven generations, you know, into like, you know, I have the whole chart like didn't do like you know, just really Jewish names and he was a tailor. You know, and I used to do a bit about it, but it's pretty fascinating. Do you know what the name was, like your last name?

Well, it was always Marin. Not Langer. No, and we did find that out, and I don't know why that is. Was yours different? No, no, but mine is already the longest name you could get, it's a Jewish name. I mean, it's the regulation Jewish name, yours seems like it's contracted. Yeah, Bergmeet, that's the end of a Jewish name. Yeahberg? I mean, it's the regulation Jewish name. Yours seems like it's contracted.

Yeah, Berg, that's the end of a Jewish name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. We're finished. If you're missing a Berg or a Witt, then it would be Eisen, right? Yeah, which means, my last name means Iron Mountain. Yeah? Yeah.

How you holding up? That's as far as it goes in terms of the, yeah. So, but were you brought up, like, so it was progressive, where you brought up reform? Yeah, I was brought up reform, like, to appease, I think, my dad's parents, and then my family became less and less religious. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, just as the 90s went on, and people became less religious in my area. And what'd your sisters end up doing? My older sister changed her name. Yeah. To seem, you know, she didn't want that. religious in my area. And what'd your sisters end up doing? My older sister changed her name to seem, you know, she didn't want that. And my little sister is- But they're not in show business to do. No, no.

Well, my little sister was an actor when she was young. Now she's a therapist and my older sister, no. A therapist. Yeah. Yeah. So, when do you start,, like when you're a kid, cause you're kind of wired, you know, were you always wired?

I was miserable when I was younger, so I wasn't like wired, I was just panicked all the time. What about, do you know? Oh, about everything. I mean, I was a terrified child. But were you hypochondriac? Well, when I was in kindergarten, I had to carry two tissues to school in different pockets,

one for crying and one for bleeding. And my sweet, sweet mom just perpetuated this horrible habit by saying, like, wait, honey, do you have your tissue for bleeding? And I said, yes. And you have your tissue for crying? Like, the mom should have just said, oh, honey, you don't need those tissues. You're not going to cry or bleed. But my mom made sure I had both.

Did you bleed? I don't think I bled. Oh, you know what? I used to have nosebleeds from anxiety. So yeah, maybe that was it. Oh my God. I know, I know, it's sad. And you were crying all the time?

I was crying all the time. For no reason? Yeah, I could, you know what? I always, you know, it's funny. The thing you said a few minutes ago about like being wired for an emergency. Yeah. That's what I was.

I was like wired for something terrible to happen. And now I'm also wired and in a similar way, but because of modern medication, it gets transferred into something a little more productive. So you feel like this is all preexisting mental issues. You don't have, can you trace the foundation of your paralyzing anxiety? Oh, yeah, but I don't like to talk about it.

But, oh yeah, yeah, I had a very weird set of circumstances when I was young and yeah, I was, yeah. So it's trauma-based? Yeah. Oh. Yeah, and also wiring and that lovely mix. Yeah, but are your parents, are they high strung? No, my parents are like normal.

I don't know, I guess it may be. Sisters? A little bit? Yeah, so like I, I mean, and I was really just like basically terrified. I mean, I have not really talked about this, but I, my movie that I made that's out now is talking about how I used to be sad as a kid.

I mean, yeah, I had real emotional distress. I was in a mental institution when I was younger, and I was quite disturbed. What brought that on? Oh, trying to kill myself in multiple different ways. How old? I was 13. Oh, wow.

Yeah. So you just couldn't take the anxiety. Yeah, exactly. And- But it wasn't depression, right? It was just relief? You know, it's so funny. I guess I would have said I'm depressed, but no, it's not like, I guess it wasn't.

Depression is kind of like immobilizing, right? Yeah, I always, because I differentiate. Like I had this realization for myself that anxiety, when it runs away from you, when you get, like when you can't, when you're consumed with anxiety, you go into a paralysis, I think. Right. That could look like depression,

but it's really just your brain going like enough. Oh yeah. Like it's not like bleak. Right. It's just like, it's a type of existential exhaustion. Yes. That I think could appear like depression. Yes. I've never had, like when I see depression like sometimes depicted in movies or something,

it looks like a guy's on his couch and he's watching all these TV shows or something. I've never had that experience ever. I've been in like either a panic or the thing you just described. Right. Depression's like this profound hopelessness and despair. But when you're anxious, eventually it's almost like your brain is just sort of like, fuck it. And you enter this other zone where you want relief. I used to do a joke about that. I used to do a joke about how, like, you know,

I think about suicide all the time, but it's not because I want to kill myself. I just find it relieving to know I can if I have to. Yeah, that opportunity. Yeah, to sort of like, you know, why does my life, hey, I could always kill myself. I know, yeah. Yeah, back to work.

Yeah, that's funny and sad and true. Yeah. For some people it is. Yeah, I think at the time I was just like desperate for something and just hated everything. Yeah, I don't know. Do you think to be anxious requires like, having bypassed depression, not bypassed,

having already gone through depression and... I don't know. I like that the worldview is bleak and therefore the anxiety. Well, I think it's like the worldview, I don't know if I could, I can identify bleakness now. And I think that I have a propensity to look at things in a bleak way, but I think it's more connected to dread. That, you know, that, you know, if you have a core sort of

dread drive or a shame drive, you know, everything's going to run through that. So, you know, that informs your whole perception. Right, right, of course. So that can get pretty bleak. Of course. But I can dread, you know, just even talking to you. Of course. I didn't.

Right. But many have. Well, I was talking to, who was I talking to the other day? Josh Brolin. Yeah. And oddly, we get along very well, you know, but I know the topic came up about how, like, you know,

he had some guy he kind of knew who invited him out to drink with him and his friend, and Josh wasn't drinking at the time. And he got to the bar and the guy's like, you have a drink? And he's like, I don't feel like having a drink. And the guy's like, what are you talking about? I brought my friend. And he realized this moment where it's like, oh, you want to see me?

I'm the clown. You want to see me go crazy with the boot? Right? And I said to him, I said, well, that's, I mean, that's at least something. I don't think I'm on the first list. I'm on the list for anyone to invite to a party. Right, right, right.

He's never like, let's get Marin over here. Yeah, yeah, you haven't even been the clown? Not really. I think, like, because of the, like you, I think there's an intensity that is contrary to a good time. Yeah, wow. An intensity, yes, yeah, that's definitely true.

I mean, it's not that you're not engaged or you're interested in stuff. No, no, no, you don't need to, I'm not a good time. That's been proven. I remember I was just at a, yeah, I was, no, I was just at a wedding and on the very, very periphery of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Just sitting there kind of waiting for the thing to end. Right. Yeah. And you didn't engage with anybody? No. No, but they were all dancing, so it was okay. I mean, I don't think anybody saw me. I was in the shadows.

Well, I think it's just, it's also that thing where my brother has it worse than me. And I've been aware of this stuff for a long time, so I've kind of let go of things. Yeah. But there is a component to, you know, people who are, you know, kind of keyed in to whatever it is themselves or, you know, they have a certain intensity when they enter the world that it's just a little exhausting to people. It's too much. Right. Like my brother, it's just like, you to people. It's too much.

Like my brother, it's just like, you know, he doesn't, you know, after a certain point, and I'm sure you've learned on some level, it's like, hey, maybe there's some things I don't have to talk about at this particular place. Right, right, right, of course, yeah. But that's a hell of a thing to learn for somebody who has a disposition like that.

Like, all right, do you have to bring up the thing? And just, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, nice to see you. That's right, some kind of, yes, self-control or something. Yeah, but I'm in like a moment of great fun. I'm manufacturing that kind of thing because I just have to not be there.

I don't know what fun is, I don't think, totally. I mean, I can do it on my own sometimes. I can play a little guitar or whatever, but I'm not water skiing. I'm not, like, I don't, like, you know, like, I don't know who this, I was talking to maybe Bobby Lee, sort of like, you know, these people that travel together as couples and stuff, you're like, we're all gonna go to the thing. I'm like, I don't know what that is.

Right. So, my, oh, couples that travel together. Oh my God. No, I couldn't even imagine what that is. No, my wife and I travel, but we only visit... Um... What? I mean, you know, we only go to countries that are, like, not the touristy cut.

Not beaches? No, I mean, our last trip was to Romania. No, I mean, because I was curious about the... Yeah? About what? I mean, it's so nerdy. I don't know, I should say it. What? Oh, just like the revolution in Romania. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ceaușescu.

Yeah. And so I went to the town where in Romania. Yeah, yeah, Ceaușescu. Yeah, and so I went to the town where it started, Deciora. That's the kind of travel I like to do. You want to see where it all went wrong? Yeah, exactly. And we do, we get ice cream and everything, but that's where I feel comfortable traveling. Well, I mean, you just made a whole movie about it. That's right, yeah. This is the kind of travel I like to do. Well, I mean, I watched that movie.

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, no, I enjoyed it. But like, it's one of those things because I'm not, I don't think we're essentially, you know, personality-wise, they're not similar, but I know where you're coming from. Of course. And, you know, and I understand that the sort of,

and I understand Culkin's character too, you know, but there was a thing where I'm like, oh my God, are these guys gonna ever feel better? Right, right. You know, like, there's a thing there. But it was a thing where I'm like, oh my God, are these guys gonna ever feel better? There's a thing there. But it was very touching. And I think in terms of now that you say you've traveled these places, and there is sort of a, it was interesting

because it wasn't going to find where your grandmother lived when she was a kid, and know, her particular set of circumstances, it did not, it wasn't about reconnecting with Jewishness. Right, no, no. Really. No, no, no. Which is kind of interesting. Yeah, to me, what you just said,

connecting with Jewishness feels so vague to me. You know what I mean? I wouldn't even know what that means. I guess it means. But you wrote characters that were sort of seeking that, I mean, on some level. Right, but the, I guess, just like, faith, I'm using my hand quotes, to me feels like just so far away from anything

that I feel connected to. You know, the idea of faith or reconnecting to faith or... Well, I mean, I don't know. It's always been vague with Jewishness. I was brought up conservative and I always... Oh, were you? Yeah, I mean, you know, it wasn't reform, but it wasn't, you know, I did bar mitzvah thing.

And, you know, it was not, you know, reform was always sort of like, do they have a guitar and stained glass windows, you know, like, so. Yeah, we were called the church by the conservative temple in town. Exactly, yeah, yeah. But nonetheless, I don't, the way I put it, I was like, I was never taught how to use God.

Right, okay. Right, so, you know, the way I put it, I was like, I was never taught how to use God. Right, okay. Right, so, you know, so the faith of it, it's fairly complex, you know, in terms of Judaism. I mean, you know, and when I've investigated certain things, I still don't feel the drive to finding my faith. I'm certainly proud to be a Jew, and I don't mind it, because I am one. I don't mind it as the most Jewish reaction to being a Jew you could have. I don't mind it, you am one. I don't mind it as the most Jewish reaction

to being a Jew you could have. I don't mind it. It's a little chilly. But listen, if you get a blanket, it's fine. But I always liked the cultural trappings of Jewishness. Yeah, no, me too, absolutely. No, no, I, yes, for the most part, I love what the things I've been given,

like an interest in baseball and humor and philosophy and social justice and all the stuff I like, I realized as an adult, are basically things that we would consider Jewish virtues or interests. Yeah, did you have a relationship with your grandparents? Yeah, yeah, and truth be told, they were also not...

Yeah, they weren't really... Mine weren't either, No, not really. Mine weren't either, but they were, but it was of a sort. They, you know, culturally they were. Yes, yes, yes. Do you know what I mean? Oh, sorry, yes. To your point, yes. I had a relationship with them that I would call

something particular to our culture, but I would probably also attribute to like Italian culture. Just like culture where it feels like you were probably part of an enclave at one point, and so the extended family was like more familiar. Sure, the food and everything else was all kind of there. Yeah, but that there was like a familiarity with like that generation. Yeah.

Whereas if maybe I lived in more, I don't know, you know, mainstream American culture or something, you'd have a separation. So how long did you work on this story? What provoked you to do a real pain? Oh, to this movie? Oh, it came from a bunch of different things. Like my background as a writer is playwriting. And so when my wife and I went to Poland to visit the towns that all these characters

visit in the movie, we came back and I had written my first play. What was that about? It was about this kind of self-centered version of me. It was like a young writer going to visit his second cousin. Um, Vanessa Redgrave actually played my second cousin. My real second cousin, Maria. Really? Yeah. Um, and she, um...

Off-Broadway? Yeah. It was at the Cherry Lane. Oh, that's a nice little theater. My first play's at the Cherry Lane. Yeah. Um, and, uh, it took place in Poland. And I'd always kind of like, mm, I'd always like, like setting something in Poland. And it gave me kind of like, I'd always like setting something in Poland and it gave me kind of like an otherness

that made me feel interested. Why Poland? Oh, my, so my family's from there. In the movie, the characters actually visit this house and we use the actual house my family is from. Oh, really? About 1939. My grandmother's line is from Poland,

but I think it was Ukraine then, Galicia. Oh, oh, wait, I know Galicia and I wish I had time to look at a map because I know what that is. Yeah, I think it was kind of one of those areas where it was sometimes it was Ukraine, sometimes it was Poland. Right, so like the city Lvov, which is a big Ukrainian city,

like one of my family survived there and it was Poland at the time. Right. But anyway, so like then, so I had written, I had written that play and I always wanted to like adapt it as a movie and I could never figure out like what story would be good to adapt. I always wanted to shoot something in Poland.

Um, I had written a short story for Tablet Magazine about these two guys who go to Mongolia to meet a friend of theirs. And again, it's actually very similar to Jerusalem Syndrome. It was, it was one character is full of conspiracy theories and my character I was gonna play was not. And they go to see a guy who they think is the most, you know, conspiracy-minded guy, the pure guy from high school, they haven't seen in a while.

And he's actually just explains to them the world. He's grown up and it just destroys them in Mongolia. And so I was like 30 pages into this Mongolia script and it was not going well. But I had these two great characters, this fun rapport, and an ad popped up on the internet for Auschwitz tours, and then in parentheses, with lunch. And I realized that's the story.

Like these guys have to go on a Holocaust tour. Because it's just fascinating. I'm fascinated with this idea of trauma tourism. You know, like what's the best way to take it? My buddy Jerry Stahl wrote a book, uh, 999. Yes, I did. You know, somebody gave it to me, I think, while we were in production or something. I didn't finish it, yes.

I mean, I started it, no, he's great and I love his work. I should read it. Yeah, it's good. No, I know, but I didn't want to read anything that felt like, oh, this is kind of close to, you know, something. Right, sure, sure, sure. But no, I will, I will. And, uh, yeah, that kind of tourism is fascinating.

And I know his was also about Jewish tourism, but even like... There's all the camps. Right. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but what is it that's fascinating about trauma tourism? Well, because there's no perfect way to do it. You know, you wanna go there and, you know, you're going with the idea that you're trying to connect

to that thing in a way to, I guess, grow as a person, to maybe build up your empathy. If it applies to you. that you're trying to connect to that thing in a way to, I guess, grow as a person, to maybe build up your empathy. If it applies to you, because you could argue that half of this country, in terms of the Civil War, those are monuments to trauma tourism, but somehow it's different.

Well, that was a war, not a genocide. No, no, no, I know, but like that- I'm not correcting you, I just mean it's not exactly the same feeling. So you're speaking trauma tourism essentially revolving around the Holocaust. Oh, I mean, yeah, so I'm not correcting you. I just mean, it's not exactly the same feeling. So you're speaking trauma tourism, essentially revolving around the Holocaust. Oh, I mean, yeah, but I also, I traveled to the killing fields in Cambodia and to Rwanda, to the Genocide Museum in Rwanda. Like there are these places that you go and I, as an American, don't have a connection

to. Well, you also, like there's the slavery monument in Alabama, which was probably one of the most moving and horrendous things I'd ever seen. Oh, really? I haven't been there. Oh my god. I don't know if they, I don't know, I always forget the full name of it, but it's basically, it's about the lynching and all the lynching that took place over time, and it's an art piece. And it's part of the museum in, I think, in Montgomery or somewhere that has to do with remembering the Swayve experience.

But it was, you know, that was a similar kind of thing. Exactly. And I guess my question for you is like, you probably ate a nice breakfast before you went there and you probably ate dinner at night. Yeah. So like, we're trying to, like, connect to these places. But we're also, especially if you go on, like, a tour overseas, you know, you're still, like, kind of maintaining the green. Well, that's why the whole tour thing.

I mean, it was a smart movie in the sense that, like, you're very specific about the size of the tour. Because, you know, those tours can be much bigger than that. And for some reason, as a device, and it was smart to just be like, well, this is a very small group. Oh, these are the tours I've been on though. Not Holocaust tours, but I've been on these

eight person tours a lot. Oh really? Yeah. Not to Poland, but to other places. Yeah, because I went to Israel once and it was a busload. Oh yeah, that's a different thing, and it's hard to make a movie about something like that. Yeah, especially now.

But, it's not gonna be a fun trip. It's the permits alone. Yeah. You can't get the permit. But, so this was driven by a lot of your personal experience, but the character that Kieran plays, your cousin, was that, you know, is that something, is that another manifestation of your experience, do you think? Yeah, kind of. Like, yeah, his character, like my character,

who I play, I think probably people who are watching it would think that's me, you know, because I'm, you know, maybe similar to that character. But no, the Ciaran character is also inside of me. I was originally gonna play that part too. Really? Yeah, and I've done that. Who was gonna play your part?

I was gonna cast another person. Oh. Yeah. But, you know, that's in me too. This character is on edge. He also can be funny in a group and like a raconteur, which I maybe occasionally can be if the group is very specifically tailored to my strengths.

And... What a requirement for you to be charming. It has to be the exact right group of people and they all have to not be listening to me. But, um, you know, but, uh, yeah, but that's like me too. But he's also, in some ways, like the thing I admire in other men, you know, people who are, like, very comfortable saying what they want. Yeah, and don't give a fuck.

Exactly. And it's the thing I envy. And then, it's interesting, because I envy it so much, and adore those people so much, and in a way, kind of like, just fall in love with people like that so much, you know, I think about them all the time and I get to this point where in my thoughts about them that actually maybe there's something missing there. You know this... With them? Yeah. Well there is. Yeah. And I think it's like the way those two characters play together explored it. I mean, you know, that ultimately, it was sort of a battle to challenge strangers' empathy.

Yeah, exactly. And that the way you kind of played that out with yourself and with that character is that you both specifically have problems. Right. And because you're the more codependent one, you know, half of his problems become your problems. Exactly. Because of your own fear and attachment.

Right. And then, but through that monologue that you had, you know, you kind of reveal your own sort of issues. Yeah. And then it just becomes, you know, both of of reveal your own sort of issues. And then it just becomes, you know, both of these guys have problems, but the Zero Fucks guy somehow is more palatable. Wait, palatable how?

Well, just that like, you know, you feel for him, like right at the edge of him losing everybody. you know, you feel for him, like, right at the edge of him losing everybody. You know, you reveal this thing, I don't want to spoil it for anybody, and all of a sudden, the entire lens of how people look at him change. Oh, of course, exactly. And they're willing to forgive almost everything.

That's right. Whereas your character is harder to forgive because there's a brittleness to it. That's right. Yeah, he's too kind of self-conscious to open up. And, you know, Benji, Ciaran's character, for all of his flaws, is being honest in a way that is appealing, I think, is general.

But it's also, like, in general, though, it's off-putting, and there is a, you know, you're sort of defying people. I mean, yeah, sure, like, you know, you played it, so, you know, the tour guide got something out of what he said, and that might have been important, but there's still, like, the level of need for attention and need to disrupt.

Right. You know, which is sort of interesting, because you get the feeling that he's kind of a solitary character, because, you know, he's not capable of relationship. That's it, there's no, like, long's not capable of relationship. That's it. There's no like long-term or sustainable relationship that he can have.

And he's gonna fuck everybody off eventually. Exactly, that's exactly it. So, you know, you meet him at the beginning and then leave him at the end at the airport. And there's a feeling of like, this guy can only exist in these transient places where you can have quick relationships. So he's really good like on a first meeting,

like when you first introduce him, he introduced him. He's great and like And then he just slowly turns into the thing that he is which is just he can't get outside of himself He can't get over himself right to kind of meet people on their level or be or or manifest a life for himself Yeah, certainly not. No, it's moment to moment living because like your character is a lot more Transparent just by nature of the vulnerability of it. Right. Whereas him, you know, there's really no sort of way to understand why he did what he did.

Exactly. And, you know, and then you kind of threw in the piano thing to be like, well, these gifted people are so troubled kind of. No, no, no, not really that. More kind of thing like he just lives moment to moment, you know, and like he doesn't have a sense of other people's civility. Yeah, not great.

Yeah. But I understand why those people are attractive. Exactly that. No, that's really what it is. Because it's like, you know, how do they, like they're so able to live with themselves. Right, exactly, exactly. Yeah able to live with themselves. Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, but not other people.

Right. Like, that is the shortcoming of it. Exactly. So, what's interesting, too, is that, like, you know, ultimately the journey, or even the relationship with the grandmother, everything becomes sort of secondary to, you know, the character's, you know, concern, your character's concern for him. And the idea that this, however it's gonna help you, you know, you pulled him out of a hole

and, you know, he doesn't travel much. But ultimately, the whole journey is really towards, you know, your character having some sort of ability to maybe let go of whatever this spell this guy has on you. Yeah, wow. You are so astute. That's exactly it.

But most people don't frame it like that. But yeah, that's what it is for me, is that like this thing from my childhood has so much power over me, even though my life seems like kind of fine. And this trip and this kind of like, yeah, intense emotional experience with my cousin, like, allows me to kind of grow up, grow out of it a little bit. Right. Yeah, because, you know, you were jealous of him your whole life. Right. And he's kind of a bully.

Right. You know, that's the downside of that personality, is they're going to expose you through their need for attention. Yeah, and kind of antagonize you in really specific ways. Like, he knows I'm just, like, physically uncomfortable, so he's constantly throwing his arm around me, pretending to stab me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, even commenting on my feet, just this need to co-op my body.

Yeah, but then you get obsessed with your feet, because you're like, I never noticed my feet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, he's like, it looks like grandma's feet and it reminds me of my... Oh, yeah. And then all of a sudden, he's showcasing his unique relationship with the grandmother that you didn't have. Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah. So when you go into a process of writing something like this, so do you do read-throughs? Do you have... What is the process? Because, you know, the cast of characters is specific and interesting to have a victim of real genocide with the Rwandan guy and then the sort of classic kind of middle

to upper class Jewish couple who are now retired and then the divorced Jewish lady. And so it was very specific and they all met certain you know ends as characters and how they wove into the story and the guide himself as well who was not Jewish that was an interesting thing but I mean this it feels like it took a lot of time to refine something like this. Oh no I mean so as I said my background is playwriting so my my comfort zone is writing big scenes long scenes with lots of characters. So that stuff was fine.

If anything, I had to trim down some of the scenes because in plays the scenes can be 25 pages, but in a movie that's boring. So no, that's stuff I liked. We didn't rehearse. You didn't? No, because Kieran came out the day before shooting. Yeah. So we were going to rehearse for a few hours and then we did something

for 15 minutes and realized it doesn't matter. No, and then, but it was just like, you know, it was just the trick is in the casting. You make sure you cast people who seemingly understand the tone and... But the script was tight from the once you started. Like you didn't... I couldn't change a word because of, um,

it was during the writer strike. Oh. So it was this actually great benefit because writers don't wanna change. So do you see yourself really in terms of your passions as like a writer? Yeah, I've been doing everything kind of equally. This is the first thing I've written that people really like love.

So I'm hoping that it will allow me to make my next things more easily. I mean, I'm making my next movie in March. Oh yeah? Yeah, and so I'd like to do that once a year. Is it the same movie but with a woman? What do you mean? On a tour?

Yeah, it's actually a couple. Yeah, exactly, it's a couple and it's not Poland, it's Romania. Yeah, and no, I wanna do this forever. I mean, I'm like you, I just try to, I'm doing Do whatever I do as many things as possible because they're all unstable You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I do know what you mean

I don't want to attribute that to you But like for me at least it feels like oh, there's an industry that just does not give a shit if you're do anything tomorrow Yeah, so I just try to do everything and some of them happen and get made It's also you got to stay busy or else you know what are you left with. I'm crazy, I know. I would go nuts. I would go nuts if I wasn't busy. But when, so, but you didn't, were you, did you,

when you started acting, like when you went to, were you went to a theater high school? Just my senior year, yeah. And was writing always part of it? Yes, when I was in high school, I was, yeah, I was 16 that year and I wrote a script about- The one you wanted to give me? No, that was, that was, um...

Oh my God, I just realized it was definitely after 9-11 because the script that I wanted to give you, I wrote like right after, anyway, that doesn't matter. But, um, no, while I was in my senior year of high school, everybody knew that I would spend lunches in the library because I was writing a movie script and it was about Woody Allen and it was called Woody and it was about him at 16 changing his name

and I wanted to make this movie and the kids at school all knew about it and knew the jokes and everything and then he threatened to sue me once we finally got the script to him. Oh really? He sent it to him hoping again like me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn't, I'm sure he didn't know about it. It was just, his lawyer sent me a cease and desist letter.

So when do you start acting professionally? I did my first movie right after high there, uh, right after high school, or in the end of my senior year. Um, before that, I was on a short-lived television series when I was 16. So, I was acting at that time. Did you go to college? I went to college, I graduated during the pandemic, though. It took me 18 years.

Because basically what I was doing was I would, like, act. Those incompletes will hang over you. You know what? No, I never got an incomplete. I basically would go for a semester, and I would take the next semester offpletes will hang over you. You know what? No, I never got an incomplete. I basically would go for a semester and I would take the next semester off and work for 18 years. Wow. And what'd you get your degree in?

Like anthropology. Really? Last two years ago? To 2020, yeah. Four years ago, yeah. And now I'm an official anthropologist. Yeah, if you need anything, if you want me to explain any kind of culture to you,

I can't write prescriptions, but I can tell you why people do certain things. So that's an undergraduate degree in anthropology. That's right. And when you go back, like when you finished your last semester, were you locked in? I mean, were you still interested?

Oh, no. By the end, I was writing essays that they were counting for credit. So by like the tail end, I was writing essays that they were counting for credit. So by like the tail end, I was like writing about, I'm writing this play and this is what it's about and it's taught me this thing that's tangentially related to anthropology. Yeah. I think they were eager to get rid of me.

So the experience of acting, what you learned in terms of acting, you learned primarily in high school? Yeah, exactly. And from just doing it, I mean, you know, I was doing plays and I was doing, like I had just great stuff. I still now, I do these like Greek plays. I'm always trying to get better as an actor and I-

You do, you are? Yeah, I am. Okay, well, that's good. Well, of course, yeah. Do you do Shakespeare? No. Okay, but Greek, you'll do Greek. I'll do Greek and then my, you know-

It's always easier, the language is easier. It's a translation, it's No. Okay, but Greek, you'll do Greek. I'll do Greek and then my, you know. It's so easier, the language is easier. It's a translation, it's old. Yeah, exactly. It's not written in Pentameter. To be honest, I actually, I mean, I prefer Greek theater to Shakespeare. Yeah, I don't know. Why, because it's a little more stripped down?

It's stripped down. It's not using language as, like language isn't the star. It's these kind of brute, very blunt emotions. And it's visceral base. Whereas Shakespeare, I just find to be more performative because it's literary. Yeah, interesting. So when you say you keep trying to get better as an actor,

what challenges you the most? Oh. Like in terms of. I finished a movie last week. Yeah. Now you see me three. I know it sounds probably like, oh, it's a Hollywood movie.

What can it be challenging? What is that one about? I mean, I don't, I missed the first two. It's about magicians, the Rob Banks. There's three of them. You have your work cut out for you. Okay. But basically, like the character in that movie

is this incredibly like confident magician who has the biggest ego and he's blunt and he's obnoxious. And I mean, I know it sounds like, oh, I'm in a Hollywood movie. What could there really be for me to get better as an actor? But I mean, it's the most challenging role I play. It's so, it's so cocky and I just love it. I love living in that space.

I'm so happy I got to do another one. And like, so yeah, that's what I like to do. I mean. So you can really like, the challenge for you is to act as far from yourself as possible. Yeah. I mean, the movie I did before that, I played a bodybuilder who is, like, harboring his sexuality.

And he joins a male cult. Which movie was that? It's called Manadrome. Oh, my God. What happened to that movie? It's good. Why? Well, I don't know about it. Well, I don't know.? I don't know about it. Well, I don't know. You probably don't know about a lot of movies.

I mean, you know, they make a thousand movies a year. I know. I'm in like two of them. Well, no, you work constantly. Yeah. You're always working as an actor. Yeah. I mean, but a lot of things, most, I mean, probably most things I've been in, people haven't seen.

Do you, do you, do you watch the movies? No, I never watch them because, you them because I don't want to like- That's not interesting. I want to be in the moment and not think like I'm going to have to look at myself. I'm a self-conscious person, but I love performing. Yeah, me too. I just watched myself do a voice of a snake and I was like, I could have done a little better. You know what's interesting? You were telling me that earlier.

I was going to ask you, did you ever consider just not going? Well, after a certain point, you want to be a team player. It's animation and these people have been working for two years on it. Right, animation is a little different. Yeah, I a team player. You know, it's animation, and these people have been working for two years on it. Right, animation is a little different. Yeah. I find, because I never watch the movies I'm in, except, you know, this movie, because I directed it, but whatever. I don't watch them. And so...

I find that interesting, because I will watch. Does it make you really uncomfortable? Well, for me, in terms of, like, because it's not, it wasn't really my life acting. You know, comedy was my life, and was my life and doing this and whatever. And I've always wanted to do acting and I've done more of it lately. But for me to feel like,

like I think that after years of being a comic and watching myself do that, sometimes it's awful, sometimes it's not. But I think I'm objective enough to go like, well, that's why that didn't work. And this is what, so it's sort of helpful to me. Of course, no, if you're a comic, you have to, because you're a solo show.

Kinda, I mean, you know, it's just seeing myself on TV and stuff. Sometimes I'm happy with it, and sometimes I'm not. And I think with acting too, you can watch yourself and sort of go like, well, that was not the, you know, I remember that take, that was not the choice, whatever, that kind of stuff. But I don't think I'm doing it to beat the shit

out of myself or to feel like I'm not doing a good job. But it does make me uncomfortable, sure. Do you ever experiment and like not watch something? Like I'm actually gonna skip this thing. Yeah, I've missed things that I've done. You know what I mean? And I think it's gotten more lately, but there are like the last movie I did

or the one I did during the pandemic, that two Leslie movie, cause I'm like, well, if I'm gonna act and somehow it's gonna become worthwhile to do it as even with the waiting, which drives me nuts, I should try to do something like, and that guy had a little accent, so I'm like, oh, who's gonna see this?

I'll just try to make those choices and do that. So I wanted to see how it came off. Yeah. You know? That is healthy. Yeah? Yeah, I think so. But you've never watched the social network?

Yeah, I had to watch that once. It was excruciating. It was like we were sitting there at a public screening and I was not allowed to leave. And I've never sat in one since. So I guess that's why theater is probably more compelling in some ways. Yeah, exactly. Because it's gone.

It's gone, but also you're on stage never thinking I'm going to have to look at me. You know what I mean? If you're acting and that's even crossing your mind, you're out of it a little bit. I like to feel like I'm just there and not that I'm going to have to contend with it in a year from now. And then I start thinking about my face and it just distracts me in a bad way. But isn't that part of the job of film acting is to, you know, be aware of these things because you're on camera?

I would say that this movie I did that Kieran Culkin is in, Kieran was so unbelievably unaware of anything he was doing to the point where I would say to him like, hey, let's do one more take and you try this and maybe bring the rage in earlier, unbelievably unaware of anything he was doing to the point where I would say to him like, hey, let's do one more take and you try this and maybe bring the rage in earlier, whatever, some general note.

And he would say, I have no idea what I did. Don't tell me what to do, but if you wanna do another take, I'm more than happy. And he was brilliant. And it was just an example of somebody who's like, so living in the spirit of the character that they're not, they don't have that super ego thing watching them. And I just found it amazing. Well, I don't have that super ego thing watching them. Yeah.

And I just found it amazing. Well, I don't know. I find that like I found like in this movie, I just shot where, you know, if the guy would be, you know, like I would know in a scene, you know, my tone. And if he said, could you like, you know, take that in a little bit? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He said he, I'm the first guy he's ever really met or worked with that in a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said he, I'm the first guy he's ever really met or worked with that was aggressive agreement. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, stop. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's fun, aggressive agreement. You know, Kieran was like that a little bit too. Like the last shot of the movie is kind of like

an emotional big shot on him. And I asked him, like, do you want to talk about it? He's like, no, no, no, go away, I got it, it's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. You know, basically like, I know what I'm doing here. I'm in it, yeah, let's go. I mean, I love that, I find that so refreshing. I mean, I like the actors too that are also like, no, no, no, go away, I got it, it's great. You know, basically like, I know what I'm doing here. A minute, yeah, let's go. I mean, I love that, I find that so refreshing. I mean, I like the actors too that are also like,

you know, I was up all night with this scene, you know, but I mean, I get it too, but like, you know, and that's fine too, but like, the Kieran thing was just like kind of magical to watch. But it's interesting that you bring up this idea of not watching it, because like, I just shot this movie, and it was the first movie I've ever been a lead in, and like, I can honestly say that I never once went home thinking

I should have done it differently. That's a great feeling. Right. So on some level, it kind of makes an argument for what you're saying, is like, why watch it? Well, yeah, that's true. And possibly ruin. Possibly think that that's less than.

Ruin that feeling. May I ask why you had that feeling? Because I've had that sometimes. What, that I couldn't have done it, like that I felt good had that feeling? Because I've had that sometimes. What the, that I didn't, that I couldn't have done it like that? I felt good about it? Yeah. You've had it sometimes. Yeah.

Well, because like, again, like it was a situation where I'd never had to, you know, I'd never been offered the opportunity to be the lead in the movie. Right. And I thought the movie was beautifully written and it's very funny and it's very dark. And I just really felt that I that I gave it all I got. That's great. So like if I fell short, I couldn't have done it any differently.

Okay, that's great. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, of course, that's really great. And so are you, is there a part of you that thinks, actually, you know what, I'm not gonna watch this one. I left it there. Well, there's like, but no, because there's scenes in it where I'm like,

I really was like in it and I felt connected and I'm curious to how they play in relation to how I was feeling in them. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? I'm so scared of being disappointed that I don't want to, I don't even want to, you know, do the experiment though. But I mean, it sounds like you don't, do you generally have a good experience doing films?

I, with rare exceptions, I walk away not feeling like it could have been better. Really? With anything or just with movies? Oh, oh yeah, with movie acting. Yeah, except because it's just like, you know, like, you know what's weird? These, now you see me movies that I was telling you, the magician movies that you said were your favorite. The character I play is so confident and cocky really that actually I walk away from those movies every day ago and that was great. But because I'm in the spirit of like somebody who enjoyed himself during the day.

But mostly I'm playing emotionally kind of fraught people. And so I just, I'm in that posture all day and I feel bad about myself. Oh, so that might just be about like kind of bringing the work home with you. Maybe that's what it is. Yeah, maybe that's what it is. Yeah, yeah.

I watched you in that, like I'm a huge Kelly Reichardt fan. Oh yeah. And that movie was interesting. Yeah, yeah, I really liked that. Did you like it? Oh yeah, I mean, I haven't seen it, but I like, I love doing it and I love her. She's pretty amazing.

Night Moves? Night Moves, yeah. She's pretty great because, you know, she... She... You know, she just works in an entirely different, you know... Not only a different style, but even like on a time horizon, or I don't know what the right word is. She just has her own pacing and everything.

You know what's funny about Kelly is that, like, she's genuinely one of the funniest people I know. She's so funny. And yet, I always ask her, like, could you put some jokes in your movies? And she's like, no, it would undermine everything else. But that last movie she did was pretty funny. Last movie was pretty funny.

Like, even if it wasn't on purpose, but like, I cannot... No, it was good satire and artists and stuff like that. I cannot unsee that guy digging that hole. That, to me, was the best fucking thing I ever saw. She's uproariously funny and cutting and explicitly funny. And so that's the thing I thought, she should be doing something like that. It definitely came through in that movie.

More so. What was that one called? It's called, oh, Showing Up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But did you have fun? I mean, you do these kind of, you do some pretty big, fun movies. And do you have a good time?

Do you have directors that you liked a lot? Yeah. That you learned from? Yeah, I mean, this new, Now You See Me movie is directed by the guy who did these Zombieland movies that I've been in. Oh yeah, you did those, yeah. Yeah, and no, he's great,

and he has this like crazed big vision for these things. Yeah. And it's fascinating to watch, because it's so far afield from the thing I think I can do. Yeah. And so yeah, it's fascinating to watch. I really will say, like, I've had, like, I think of myself as, like, a writer kind of,

but I feel like I've had this weird, weird luck of being on sets of movies I never would have thought to write. Yeah. You know, I've been in, like, superhero movies and, like, stuff I never would have thought I would place me on the set of. Well, how do you think you get cast for that stuff? Oh, I don't know how anybody would cast me in anything, but I just mean, like, it's just so weird.

It feels like I'm... It feels like I got, like, internships on these sets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, oh, you get to spend the next six months on the set of a superhero. And I just watch how it's being made, and I see the artistry, the prop people making, like... Oh, my God. You know, they have, like, a $10 million prop budget,

and you just see the artistry. And it's just fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. I thought that you were very decisive in your directing of the real pain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I thought that, like, you knew the parameters of what your vision was, and you honored it. Yeah, of course.

No, no, no, it was a pretty clear, I had a pretty clear rubric. I mean, I know the movies I wanted it to look like, and I gave them to our... Like, who were that? Well, I mean, I gave, my cinematographer is Polish, and he's brilliant, you know, but he actually, he never saw any Woody Allen movies. I had given him Crimes and Misdemeanors, which is...

That's interesting. That's what it was, the way you established shots. Yeah, my favorite movie is Crimes and Misdemeanors. I'd given it to him, and he watched it for 25 minutes. It's one of my favorites too, dude. I think it's the greatest thing ever. It's like one of the best movies ever. Despite the horrible fact that the reality

of Woody Allen is much different than what we grew up with. But that movie, and I always cite it too, the balance of, the moral balance of that movie is baffling. But also like even, like I can see it the way, you know, when you're setting up, you know, the way you establish location, you're very sensitive to architecture and to, you know, the kind of framing of shots, like, you know, the shots of a city, which is something he did a lot.

Yeah, exactly. I used, well, actually, we kind of used the beginning of Manhattan just because there was a montage of Manhattan and then this, we're in Poland, so it felt appropriate to do. But it's very straightforward. Yeah, exactly. I love it. To me it's if you're making a character-driven movie, that's like the thing I like to look at at least. I just love the kind of traditional approach that they were taking, which is like kind of unfussy, beautiful looking. Like we have a beautiful looking movie and it shows the vistas and it's all pretty. Yeah. But it's like kind of not so fussy. Yeah, no, exactly.

And it serves a purpose. It's not, it doesn't become a distraction. It kind of weaves in. And the main thing I really would learn from maybe like a movie like Crimes and Misdemeanors is there are so many great funny lines and they're thrown away, you know. And I just wanted as much as possible to have basically jokes that were like off camera.

Never like a close-up on a joke and then the reaction to the person so we can milk the joke. So stuff like that just gives it an air of lack of obsequiousness that is trying to make the audience, you know. Right, right. Well, you want the audience to trust you, and you have a tone that you're honoring that, and even I imagine you've had this experience with stuff you're acting in where, you know, the written material diminishes the character and the service is something that is not character-driven. You put it exactly, exactly how I've been thinking about it

for such a long time, which is like, I've been in so many movies where I feel like the things I'm tasked with saying would never come out of my mouth. And I just... Or the character's mouth. That's what I mean. Oh, no, that's exclusively what I mean. Yeah, no, I'm happy if something's not out of my mouth.

No, it's just like that it would never be the character saying, it's like that it's the writer writing a joke that they thought of. It looks good on the page. Yeah, or it's the plot of the movie, and so they have to get the... And I hate that stuff so much. So, yeah, that's partly why I was writing plays for years

because basically it was like, I didn't have to do any of that because you could just be in service of the character and require the plot or real fireworks or anything like that. And I don't know how you managed to find the most intimate feeling concentration camp in Poland. Because it's five minutes away from where I had family.

Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. This camp is, so in 2008, my wife and I went to this camp, Mydanek. And it's, so Mydanek is on the eastern part of Poland. And so the Russians got there first. And so when the Russians, because the Russians got there first, because they were coming from the east, the Germans didn't have time to burn it down. So the thing kind of exists as it was, whereas the other camps were destroyed because the Germans were, you know, trying to destroy the evidence.

So this camp is like, as you described, it just feels like this eerie, intimate thing. It feels like it was liberated the day before. Yeah. And it, but also like, it doesn't have the expanse that, you know, it just, it feels like, you know, a small operation, comparatively speaking. Yeah, exactly. To like Al Schweitzer.

Yeah, like, or Birkenau, you know, or exactly, exactly, exactly, where train tracks are running through. No, this one is, it's big, but the feeling is really small. Like, the feeling is like, oh, there were these rooms, and this is where people went, and it didn't feel, it didn't feel industrialized in the same way as those other places. No, definitely not.

Yeah, and I thought you shot that real well, too. Oh, thank you. So what's this new one you're working on? The new one takes place in the world of community musical theater, which is like my other love, besides, you know, the stuff in this movie, which is grief and history. Do you sing? No, but I write music, so I've written musicals, and so they haven't been produced.

Well, some short musicals were produced. Is this a comedy? Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, it takes place in the World of Community Theater, and it's about, yeah, it follows a, it's a, yep. So who's in it? I think they're supposed to leak it next week, but I was told not to say it.

I don't think this will be up, but all right, you don't have to. I'm so sorry. I wish I could. I feel so infuriated that I can't say the thing. But I can't wait to start and it's like gives me the opportunity to write music because the musical that is in the movie is not great so I can write like to the best of my abilities. Yeah yeah yeah. And it doesn't have to be great.

You got it like a some wiggle room. Exactly. And so that's gonna take up most of your time for the next year? Yeah, that's next year. So no other acting for now? Yeah. No, that'll be basically we shoot March. I finish in November. Yeah. It's long post-production.

Well, you did a great job. Thank you so much. On that movie and a lot of your work. Thank you so much. I can't say all of it. I haven't seen all of it. Sure, but you will tonight. I'm so honored to be on this, your podcast is obviously amazing,

and I'm so honored to get to talk to you, because I really do mean this, you've had such a very specific impact on my life. I'm so glad, and I appreciate you telling me that, because it is those things, the things you hold onto as you get older that really changed your perception of something are usually fairly small things.

Do you know what I mean? It's not like a... Exactly. It's very interesting. No, I remember that story. I didn't remember it was Jim. I don't know why for some reason I thought of Paul, but basically that story has just structured

my adult thinking in such a specific way. To minimize anxiety. Yeah, I guess so, but also to see how adults think because I think the anecdote really just showed you kind of growing into an adult. Yes. And it did the same thing for me. Well, I am happy that you had that experience.

Oh yeah, thanks. And it was great talking to you. You too, thanks a lot. Yeah. There you go. Intense guy. I enjoyed it. There you go. Intense guy. I enjoyed it.

A real pain is now playing in theaters. Hang out for a minute, people. Folks, I'm going to be in a lot of places around the holidays, New Mexico, New York City, New Jersey, and I'm sure a lot of you are traveling, too. While you're away, it's easier than ever to host on Airbnb because a co-host can do all the hosting for you. Get a high quality local co-host to take care of your home and your guests. They'll create the listing for you, manage your reservations and take care of sending messages. So someone else takes care of everything and you'll still

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Hey folks, you can check out my talk with Jesse's co-star in a real pain, Kieran Culkin. He was on episode 1150, back when we were still doing talks over Zoom. Have you been watching wrestling since your show? Not really. I've talked to wrestlers over the years. I've interviewed, we used to have Mick Foley.

Oh, Mick Foley, amazing, yeah. Yeah, because he used to, when I used to do political radio over at Air America, he's a very active guy. He does a lot of causes and real sweet guy. But he walks in, he's huge. He lumbers in, he's just beaten. He's almost disfigured most of the time, he's hobbled, but he was the real deal.

He's missing an ear and a few teeth. But in terms of the show, in terms of research, it was never my thing as a kid, but I did learn from these guys. And I also talked to Colt Cabana, who does that kind of old school, kind of retro independent wrestling, which is like no frills.

Colt Cabana, I'll be enough in practice to change it after this podcast, but Colt Cabana is actually mine and my wife's safe word. Is that true? That's actually true, yeah. That's episode 1150 with Kieran Culkin, and you can listen to it for free on whatever platform you're using right now.

To get every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for WTF+. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by A-Cast. Here we go So So I'm gonna be a good boy. So So So So So Boomer lives, Monkey in the Fonda, Cat Angels everywhere.