WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1618 - Brady Corbet

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Brady Corbet spent years in front of the camera until he resigned from the job of actor. The new career he took up, that of filmmaker, has led to ten Oscar nominations for his newest movie The Brutalist. Brady talks with Marc about what made him devote eight years of his life to this epic exploration of the male ego. They also talk about the economics of being an independent filmmaker, the balance between being a collaborator and an auteur, and Brady's conflicted feelings about the creative process. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. How's everyone doing? Huh? Yeah, I know. I know. I know.

Believe me. I know. Well, it's good to talk to you. Things have been... Yeah, I get it., yeah, I get it. Believe me, I get it. But I've been out there. I've been out in the world.

I've been out doing the thing. I've been out in the Midwest doing the shows. But no, tell me, how are you? You okay? You holding up all right? You getting through each day? Are you managing your mind? Are you managing your mind? Are you managing your mind? Is everything okay

up there? Huh? Are you? Is it okay? Just use whatever options you have at your disposal to maintain your sanity without hurting yourself or others. That's a famous quote by me. I do hope you're okay. Today we got a great show, great conversation. Brady Corbett is on the show. He's the director of The Brutalist, which is a fucking swaggering bit of filmmaking. I mean, it's a big movie, man.

And he's a young guy, and he's nominated for Best Director, Best Original Screenplay, and best picture at the academy awards He's also the director of vox lux and the childhood of a leader. This guy's a real fucking artist And real fucking artists are hard to come by There there just aren't that many there are people that do things and there are people that do things professionally and there are people that do art But uh real fucking artists There's not a lot of them and this guy is one of them and I wasn't I didn't know I didn't know going in if he was one of them or not but it turns out yep real deal the movie's fucking amazing I mean it's kind of daunting

and brain bending look I am in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Pill this Thursday, February 20th. Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater this Friday, February 21st. Louisville, Kentucky at the Baumhard Theater Saturday, February 22nd. And Lexington, Kentucky at the Lexington Opera House on Sunday, February 23rd. In March, I'll be in Oklahoma City at the Tower Theater on Thursday, March 6th, Dallas at the Majestic Theater, Friday, March 7th, Houston at the White Oak Music Hall, Saturday, March 8th,

and San Antonio at the Empire Theater on Sunday, March 9th, before I head to South by Southwest that week. I could use some help there in San Antonio at the Empire Theatre. You better buy some tickets or I might go to South by Southwest early. That's not a threat, but if you live around there go because I don't want to be fucking sad. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Alright? Good? Holy shit. I'll tell you one thing.

I am, uh, I'm glad I have the driving chops to navigate snow. Thank God I lived in New York and in Boston during massive snow storms because those, uh, those skills come right back to you. It's like riding a fucking bike and they've come in pretty handy these last couple of trips. I mean look I don't mind the cold weather. I really don't. I really I like I like I'm excited to wear layers and I like my big parka with my fur around the hood that I got from from Joe Swanberg for doing easy. I mean I like I just I just I like snow and I like winter and I like cold air I mean I like it for a day or two but let me

tell you something it was really fucking cold I mean really cold Lara Bytes and I flew into Cedar Rapids last Wednesday and I didn't even know if we'd make it that there's so much panic involved in traveling in the winter so we land in Cedar Rapids it seems like there's like three feet of snow on the ground I know I'm exaggerating and it's a small airport and we walk out to the Spot where our rental car is and the thing is buried in snow and right when I walked out My hands started to hurt From cold it was fucking

Crazy and again, I'm not complaining. I've been through it before, but it seemed a little intense. It felt like I could maybe lose a finger if I waited like 15 minutes, I might lose a hand. I mean, it was that it was that fucking cold. I couldn't find the little scraper thing. So I'm trying to we're trying to get the car out. There's a very exciting beginning of a of a Midwest journey. But you know, thank God, I mean, I do have big dumb gloves as well. So I dug my big dumb gloves out and I was wearing my big dumb parka,

but I was warm and it was fun. It was fun to play in the snow. I know like if you live in that, you're probably like shut the fuck up. But for me, it was kind of exciting. And I'd been to Iowa City a few times before, but sometimes I just don't remember places until I get there. And I don't know if I ever noticed before this trip, just how slow time goes by in the Midwest. Maybe not all the Midwest, but

maybe just Iowa. Now, this is not a criticism, all right? I mean, I know it can sound like a criticism because I come from a big city, but there are two sides to it. I mean, look, if you wanna get the most out of life and at the top of that list is time, like you want time to just seem like it just kind of oozes by,

then Iowa might be the place for you. I mean, I had moments where I'd look at my watch thinking an hour went by, but it was like 15 minutes. I honestly think that's like getting the most out of life on a basic level, is if you can get through a half a day and feel like, holy shit, has it been a week? I mean, that's if you're enjoying it.

That's if you've taken the zen to it, you know? It just kind of plods by. It's kind of zen, I think, in a way. Hey folks, I know meal kits often sound like the solution for all your meal prep troubles, but a lot of times you get a meal kit and it's not the quick recipe you thought it would be. A lot of them are complicated and over long. So that's why I'm recommending Home Chef.

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subscriber. The show in Iowa City was fucking great. Good people came out, nice bunch, probably 700 and change, my people. And as you know, I've been talking about it. I've been a little nervous about going to the red states during this transition to a competitive authoritarian government and the seemingly conditional cultural free speech situation that we're experiencing. But the truth is that there are large communities of like-minded or roughly me-minded people anywhere I go in this country. And I gotta be honest with you, right now there's a depth to it in the way that,

people get isolated and certainly people that think a certain way in this particular climate are alone or festering by themselves. And just the fact that several hundred of them can come out and laugh at the horror is a powerful thing. I feel like I'm providing a service in a way, but I'm just doing comedy. And it's kind of cathartic to do it in this environment.

I'm not happy about that, but nonetheless, it is necessary and I feel like it's a good thing. And the truth is, I'm not fundamentally a political comic, but I am a comic that talks about what is happening, what is happening in the world from my point of view, what is happening in the world from my point of view what's happening in this country from my point of view because we are living in it I can't just get up on stage and not address that it's just not what I do I can't get on stage and just be like here are the jokes you know we're living through something awful that may never

go away and I can't ignore it so I talk about shit. I just talk about how I see it. I do that for maybe the first 15 minutes. When I'm on stage I addressed the fact that there are probably Trump supporters in the audience but I sort of qualify that by saying you know they didn't come here on purpose. They didn't come here on their own. You brought them. You married them. That's on you. That gets a laugh usually. But the shows were great. The Des Moines show was awesome. People are appreciative. My crowds, they just need the relief, folks. And if you're of them and you need the relief, I think I can give you a little bit just to be in the room with a bunch of us, having some laughs.

Kansas City, Missouri was good as well, big theater. What a beautiful place that Midland Theater is. And that was great too. I mean, they were just, Lara Bytes did great. It was just, I don't know, man. I like being out there. I like being around people. I like being out in the world

Going out to eat doing comedy walking around. It was funny a Guy came up to me After the Kansas City show and he said I'm one of the Trump guys here And then he seemed pleasant enough like a nice enough guy and I him, I said, well, did I get it right? Did I get it right? Did it make sense? And he goes, yeah, he's crazy. And I'm not completely sure I understand

why he was so excited about that. Like the tone of it, like it's just a, like a kind of a fun thing, like a good time. And I think that's like a bunch of his supporters. I just, I don't quite get that one. You know, not the one that are necessarily ideological about it or maybe I'm projecting or single issue, just guys that are like,

yeah, I just kind of liked the guy, you know? Just ones that enjoy the mentally ill, cruel presidential spectacle. I don't, I don't. I don't quite get it. I mean, I get that life is slower in the Midwest, but I guess I wish there were other options for satisfying entertainment other than watching the country burn on your cell phone

or specific streaming channels. I mean, I wish there was more to it that was lighting up life other than dismantling the entire history of this country. But hey I mean you know wrestling is wrestling. With Robin Hood Gold you can now enjoy the VIP treatment receiving a 3% IRA match on retirement contributions. The privileges of the very privileged are no longer exclusive. With Robinhood Gold, your annual IRA contributions are boosted by 3% plus you also get 4% APY on your cash in non-retirement accounts.

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Robinhood Financial LLC member SIPC gold membership is offered by Robin Hood gold LLC. So I'm about to share my conversation with Brady Corbet with you. And I have to say before we I go into it that that movie and it's doing pretty well, you know, it's it and it's a it's really an independent movie that looks like an epic movie. And just the scope of it, the thought that went into shooting it, into writing it, into the kind of, the vision of it, the concepts,

it's like the shots themselves, the film stock used. It's just, you don't see movies like that anymore. And it's a long movie. And it's got three sections. And it's a long movie and it's got three sections and there's a fucking intermission and it's about a guy. I mean, it's a big story about a guy, but there wasn't a point during it that I was bored or I drifted or anything.

I just, I was locked in. I needed the intermission though. The intermission was nice. Take a little breather, a little music played, maybe go to the bathroom. But the movie is stunning. And I also did, I went and watched his one of his other movies Vox Lux. But I mean, it's all his vision. And he gets it done. You know, and he's not playing within the studio system, whatever's left of that. He makes sure he has full creative control. And it's, it's real interesting movies, you know, done at a very high level. It's very impressive. And I really didn't know what to expect from talking to him. But you can hear right

now. Again, The Brutalist is playing in theaters now. It's nominated for 10 Academy Awards. And this is me talking to the director, Brady Corbet. This new year, why not expand your life by listening on Audible. Explore audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your wellbeing

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imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.ca. So your house burned down seven years ago? That's correct. Where was that? In the village. It was on Waverly and Charles. What? In New York?

I thought we were going to have an LA story here. No, it's a New York story. No, it's a New York story. The fire department told me, you know, never move above a laundromat or a pizza place. And I was like, that's the entire fucking city. Where else am I gonna live? So what happened? What caused it? It was a laundromat fire.

A piece of lint caught on fire during the night. My wife and I were a few blocks away. My mother and daughter, they got out immediately, so they were fine. The fire department put the fire out. They actually even said, like, hey, if you don't have a place to go, you can sleep here tonight?

At the house. At the house. It was covered in soot and hose water, December, so it was freezing. And I said, no, no, I think we're not, we're not going to stay here. Um, and I, but I went in, I got our passports and a couple of things.

And then, uh, at six AM my mother called me and it was like, turn on New York one. Yeah. And, uh, there you were like, no, well, no, the, the bill had reignited. And. Oh my God. In the middle of the night.

And. So you dodged death. Yeah, we definitely at least dodged having a very stressful evening. Evening? Like having a more stressful evening. Well, that's lucky, man. All right, so tell me about this.

I think it's interesting if you want to talk about it before whatever unfolds here. But so in the kitchen there, you mentioned that you had to shoot this commercial. Yeah, I just directed three advertisements in Portugal, but pre-production was in the UK. Yeah. It's the first time that I had made any money really

in years because both my partner and I made zero dollars on the last two films that we made. Zero. Yes, actually zero. So we had to, you know, just sort of like live off of a paycheck from three years ago. And obviously the timing during an awards campaign and having to travel every two or three days was less than ideal, but it sort of was an opportunity that landed my lap and I jumped at it.

Well, I guess for me as an outsider, but I understand the business to a certain degree, that the idea that you have this film that's amazing and it's nominated for these awards and yet you don't have any money. Yeah. I've spoken to many filmmakers that have films that are nominated this year that can't pay their rent. I mean, that's a real thing. Yeah. It's a, I mean, you're not paid to be promoting a film. And, you know, like, if you look at certain films that premiered in Cannes, you know, that was almost a year ago.

So like imagine- What you can do, you gotta work, right? Yeah, like imagine, like just, I mean, our film premiered in September. Yeah. So I've been doing this for six months, and had zero income because I don't have any time to work. Like I can't even take a writing job at the moment. Right, because anything you're gonna do

is gonna take months. Correct. And you know, you gotta lock in, so that would make it harder to do this. Well, it's also, I mean, what's so crazy about promoting a film, I mean, to this, you know, because it's extend, I mean,

because it's opening internationally at the same time that it's opening domestically. So that means that you're doing Japanese press, Swiss press, you know, I mean, like everything all at once. Right. And it's seven days a week, It's boundless. Like there's no It's constant travel and it's and it's but but you're also working Saturdays and Sundays Like I haven't had I haven't had a day off

since Since the Christmas break. Yeah, and that was also only four days Yeah, I talked to Mangold the other day. Yeah. And he had just gotten in. He was in Tokyo the night before. Yeah, that sounds about right. It's crazy.

Because you can't, like, and I imagine it's something easier about locking into some pattern of discussion. Because you can't, like, you know, it's not like you're going to be your mentally best self every time you look at it. No, I mean, no, no, I mean, it's not like you're gonna be your mentally best self every time you look at it. No, I mean, no, no, I mean, it's, it's, that's what's so crazy about this entire process is that you look your worst and you feel your worst and you are, you know, depending on, on the, you know, the themes of, of your film,

like, you're usually talking about some of the, like, most complex issues of our era. Yeah, right. You know? Like, you're, like, it's not, it's really not ideal. Like, it's like a six-month interrogation. It's a very strange thing, I think, in terms of how it's all approached now and the expectations of the artists, because, like, I mean, there was a time where there was, what, three or four outlets that really did you justice and those outlets

had attention from the people that give a shit. And now none of those exist and it's just this like shotgun effect. You're gonna go say roughly the same thing to a hundred people and hopefully something connects. Yeah and also you know it's hard to imagine that like I don't personally have a sense that any of these conversations go anywhere.

Go anywhere. No, I know. It's a really weird thing. Like, you know, I completed like 90 interviews last week. Right, on a junket where you're sitting in one place, right? And they tell you. Yeah, and on the one hand, I'm not looking for for them So maybe that's why I'm not finding them But it seems like if you do that much that you would just come across it

No I it's I when I promote anything like if I'm in a movie or something and you do these things where it's like it's gonna Be two days and you're gonna sit in front you know There's a million things to do and they give you the list of outlets and you're like what the fuck where is this? What is it? That's right. Well, that's one of the interesting things about where publicity is at, is that all these people are scrambling and it seems that the most effective form of publicity,

if you have the wherewithal, is self-publicity. You don't want a fucking platform you're involved with. But I don't know many directors that do that. That's right. Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, the other thing is, is that, you know, especially for me, I know what it means to be in front of a camera.

I did it for years and I resigned. So it's kind of a strange thing. But it's, you know, I watched, like I saw the Brutalist over at the Los Feliz, so I saw it the way it was supposed to be seen. And I watched Vox Wux last night I saw The Brutalist over at the Los Feliz, so I saw it the way it was supposed to be seen. And I watched Vox Wux last night, and I've seen some of the stuff you've been in.

But like, where does, you know, the thing about The Brutalist for me, as somebody who's, I don't think I'm as much as a film obsessive as you are, but it's one of those movies where you like, you know, where, it's like I told I told my Producer I said this movie's got a huge cock Yeah, sure

But the scope of it to sort of make decisions at that that large about a personal story and to have like the impact Like the only film I can compare to usually is there will be blood Yeah, yeah I mean the it's it's it's funny that you say that the film has a huge cock because it's kind of an Investigation of precisely that I mean the male the male ego in in the mid-century Was certainly one of the film's themes. I mean I The the characters were very much written to their circumstance, which is to say that, you know,

it was predominantly Central European Jewish architects that were, you know, building these buildings. And, um, and... But they were also predominantly male. And I was like, well, who really needs another, you know, film about, you know, a male artist, a tortured genius, you know? And my partner and I just, you know,

there was no way around it. Like, this is just who the character was. This was their gender. They definitely would be a man of a certain age, et cetera, et cetera. And so we tried to offset that to the very best of our ability because of the fact that, you know, our feeling was that this character's legacy is not his body of work,

but ultimately, you know, his family. So it opens and concludes with shots of his niece that he has sort of paved the way for, but it's also part of the vicious cycle of history and it will like will her life be better or worse? You know, it's hard to say. Or unimpacted other than some sort of trust or seat on a board of some kind. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, but I think the the cock element is important because the relationship between a philanthropist

who supports the arts for whatever reason and the artist, I mean, those are the two male egos you're dealing with, right? Of course. And that them coming up against each other is kind of, it was fascinating. And the size of the movie, given the notion of the story, I don't know how you created that intimacy, but I do, you know, in terms of the characters in something that big. But I saw it in Voxlox 2. I don't know who's your cinematographer, but there's something about how big it is, but yet how visceral and kind of intimate it is.

I don't know how you get that. Yeah, I think it's actually just like, comes from the screenplays. I mean, I think that, I think what it is specifically is that I like to either see someone like play their guitar until their fingers bleed, or like play their sax until their lungs explode. Or I also like four bars of silence.

It's an interesting thing where everything in between I'm not particularly interested in. If I reach for an album, literally what my ear yearns for, is it's William Basinski or Nicole know it's Orna Coleman I mean there's nothing really in between. Yeah no I get that and like well the choice to you know find and use Scott Walker for Vox Lux that's kind of interesting I mean must have been the last thing that guy did. It is it's the last it was

the last the last piece of music that he that he well published I would say because he actually was working on an album at the time. Yeah. How'd you get hip to him? He was my hero. Really? Yeah, growing up, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I loved Scott's records.

And I had this sort of obsession with a record called Tilt from the mid-90s. And that, you know, I went backwards with him. Like I had no, as an American, you know, he, even though Scott was American, you know, he lived in the UK since 1978. And he never left, he never left the country. Smart.

And, yeah, I mean, he did drop dead right after Brexit. So I think we know how he felt about it. I remember when Leonard Cohen died just before that first Trump term or right at the beginning of it. And I was like, oh, he got out right in time. Right, yeah, that sounds about right. People were like, you asshole, he had so much more in him. I'm like, yeah, maybe.

But Scott was funny because, of course, especially for people that grew up in the UK, they knew him from his boy band. And the Walker brothers, you know, they were, none of them were called Walker and none of them were brothers, so they were really assembled, you know, by the label. It just so happened that a handful of them

were extremely brilliant, including Scott. It's wild, right? Yeah, and if you listen to the albums, what's interesting is that even, you know even the poppiest of pop songs, there's always some dissonance. There's always some discord. There's some strange atonal sustain. And I think what was so kind of amazing about his albums,

especially when he was working for major labels, is he found a way to do what he does or what he did inside of that system. And because of course, like an executive, at that time especially, would never be able to really call out the fact that there's an atonal sustain. Like that's a, it's very, it's specific. They're looking for the hook.

Yeah, and the hooks were there. And that was, and but, you know, what's funny is that he, he was quite, you know, ashamed in a way of a lot of the early work. I mean, that was something, like he wasn't proud of the Walker Brothers records. Couldn't accept it as evolution. It was just something that-

Yeah, I mean, he was a perfectionist. So I think that like all of us, you know, we all, you know, I think, you know, I think it's human nature. We all wish that we had a perfect record, but like that's not how it works. Nope. And certainly in this particular day and age, you know, your record is very available.

It's very available. At all times. Well, that's interesting in that, that the idea, the confidence of dissonance, generally speaking, that sounded correct to that guy. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And there's no way that he could have done it any other way and it was imperative or he needed to do that.

And same with Ornette. I mean, like if Ornette wasn't confident, people would be like, the fuck is this? But you believe the guy has intention. But I don't even think that you believe it. I think that you know it. I think that you listen. It's an organized chaos.

And I'm very interested in this specifically, you know? Like, I, I mean, for me, I always feel that, that when I'm watching something, you know, in this day and age in particular, everything has been so sanded down. I mean, there's so many cooks in the kitchen that essentially what you end up with is like airplane food. It's built to just, you know. Kind of look like it's supposed to. Yeah, like it's sustenance.

It's just to keep you going another day. And satisfy something, but nothing too deep. No. But so when you're a kid, you know, how do you, I mean, it's you, I mean, I know who I am in terms of what brought me up in terms of input and things I was interested in, but I'm 61. So when you're a kid, what world are you living in

to where you get hip to Scott Walker? I think that I was the only child, a single mother. Where were you, in Arizona? I was born in Arizona. I was raised in Colorado until I was 12. I'm from New Mexico, same area. Yeah, we're both from the Southwest. But I also, during that period,

because my mother was working a lot, we traveled a lot. What'd she do? At that time, she was working at a company that was sort of an offshoot of Fannie Mae. She was a— Insurance? Or no, mortgage. She was working in the mortgage industry.

So she got laid off in 2008 when everyone got laid off. And then she had to sort of start her life over. But yeah, I mean, how I sort of fell into the film business is a long story, not a very interesting one, but at that time, in what was, I guess, the early 90s, the 90s, the way that the casting functioned is that there were these hubs all over the United States. For kids.

Yeah, not even just for kids. I mean, it was sort of for like, you know, and whenever they were looking for an unknown actor for a role. Yeah. And so there were, you know, pretty legitimate casting agents that were based in small towns. Like-

Really? Yeah, yeah. Never heard that. Yeah, I mean, so I grew up with a lot of child actors, but they were all from this valley between Aspen and Vale. And it's because there was a casting director that was based there that was affiliated with Joanna Rae, the casting director of David Lynch.

And Joanna Rae actually cast me in Funny Games, the Michael Hanukkah film, when I was 17. So it was this kind of strange thing where like somebody would be like based in, you know, Tallahassee or. That's crazy, I've never heard that and I've talked to a thousand people. Yeah, no, it's a really, it's a weird thing.

I know, I certainly know a lot of other child actors that come from like small towns. And the way that it started for me was that I was a cinephile from a really young age. Who turns you on to that? I just was, I was a comic books. Like it was, I didn't have a,

I grew up watching Turner Classic movies. Like I, and my family loved whodunits. Yeah, yeah. And like, I think that, you know, so that turns you on to Joseph Losey and Hitchcock. But it's funny because you say that like, of course Joseph Losey, but most people have no sense of that guy's work.

Yeah, I definitely, I liked what I liked from a young age. But you know, by the time I would say I was, say I was 11 or 12 years old, I also was really just, I liked alternative everything. Exactly, because like there was a, it was a world of intelligence that existed outside of our periphery. Well, what's interesting for my daughter, my daughter's 10 and a half years old, and

I am under the impression that like looking for an alternative is not something, you know, which is like cool. Anymore? Yeah, and I think that the pendulum will probably swing back in another direction eventually, but like the reality is that right now, like if you ask anyone her age, you know, what artist is their favorite artist, they all have the same three or four pop singers, you know, that they refer to. Which is strange because when I was growing up, and certainly I know that you being 61 years old, like when you were growing up for sure

You it was cool to find your own path to try to find it Yeah, like hey, oh like have you heard of that like you ever heard of this? You know that was it was exciting. You know gave you a little a little edge Yeah, yeah, and you had to find the place like for me It was a bookstore and there was a record store and there were people that worked at those exactly exactly And the guy telling me that, you know, you should listen to this and they give you something. You're like, what the fuck is this? Yeah, absolutely, no, 100%.

But I mean, like, you know, I loved, I loved Fugazi. I loved, you know, I mean, it's in terms of, of the artists of that era. And Scott Walker in the nineties was the alternative to the alternative. I mean, and so you couldn't at that point go much deeper than that. Someone had to hip you to it. Yeah, but I don't know who.

Oh, really? Yeah, I think that in all seriousness, I just think that from reading a lot, listening to a lot, one thing just kind of led me to another. It's wild that when you look back at that stuff, they kind of built your point of view. Oh, 100%. Well, I mean, people are constantly asking me who my influences are. But the honest to God truth is that, first of all, there's an accumulation of so many that I wouldn't know where to begin right and and second

Of all they're they're not filmmakers Yeah, that's not it's not really the well that you drink from if you're making something because you know better Yeah, it's what is it music and writers? Yeah, absolutely And also and I mean it's in the painters in the production office, it's mostly paintings and photographers on the wall. Yeah. And it's just, you know, I mean, it's an insane thing. I do, I've worked with a few filmmakers, I guess, in my life that were like referencing a specific scene in a movie or something, but it seems kind of short-sighted.

Well, so, like, we got Scott Walker, Joe Lozzi, and who are the painters that are hanging? I mean, I would say... Rothko guy? Well, no, I love Rothko, but not, but it wasn't on my mind. And in fact, no, it's more of the chiaroscuro thing where, like, when we're shooting, we're like,

we're really trying to achieve the quality of a Goya or something where you essentially. That makes sense. Epic almost. Well, it's also just the sort of the balance of, you know, light and dark, with an emphasis on the darkness. You know, we really torture the negative and dark, but with an emphasis on the darkness.

You know, we really torture the negative so that essentially, like, it's so, it even has the texture of a painting, you know? Especially now where everything kind of looks like, you know, Apple+. So you have control of that when you shoot on film. Yeah, you absolutely do. I mean, you can shoot shoot if you expose negative properly. Yeah.

And you don't push it, and it's just, then it can just be very clean and sort of, it can be sort of what the Alexa and the red cameras have sort of tried to emulate. Right. But there is all of this latitude where you can achieve something with the quality of the image, which is where it really is, there's a lot of noise.

Yeah. Right, okay. I mean, it's sort of like, it's like a vinyl, you know? No, I think that's it. I mean, I think I can see that. Did you do that in Voxvox as well? Yeah. Because I think that's what I was trying to talk about,

about that visceral kind of intimacy that is captured that you can't quite explain, but that kind of explains it. Yeah, the Childhood of a Leader, Vox, and The Brutalist, were all shot by the same cinematographer. And he and I had, one of the reasons that we sort of continue to collaborate is because we, I think, you know, we really think about making pictures in the same way. Right. And we realized that when we met each other, you know, that we were, we both, we liked

digital photography, but we kind of only liked its earliest iteration. Like we liked Dogma 95. We liked Julian photography, but we kind of only liked its earliest iteration. Like, we liked Dogma 95, we liked Julian Donkeyboy, and we loved... Oh, that's because you could kind of see... There was this texture. Yeah, there were these, that's right. There were these pixels. It was honest. There was something really authentic and exciting about it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because at that point, it still referenced something organic and almost homemade. That's right. Yeah, and then and then you know

It got sort of sanded down and well they tried to perfect it like they or whatever That's yeah means within the role. No, well absolutely and the other thing is is that it was a quality of image Yeah, I think that that executives understood Because it was uncomplicated. It was just pretty and also easy to to fix Yeah, easy to easy to fix easy to change right? That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right well, that's interesting so they had more control yeah, no, of course, I mean look I I I So they had more control. Yeah, no, of course. I mean, look, I have very complicated feelings about television today.

It's frequently described as a writer's medium. I would describe it more as an executive's medium. And that is because there are so many keys that have to turn. And think about it, it's because it's expensive. I mean, if you are, you know, making something which is, let's say, between one and ten million dollars an episode... Yeah.

...on any scale, it is much more expensive than a film. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, people feel especially entitled, uh, to sort of weigh in on it. Yeah. And everyone's got an opinion about, like, the lead actor's jumper, you know? to sort of weigh in on it. And everyone's got an opinion about like the lead actor's jumper, you know? Like it's a very, it's a really weird process.

And there were, what's funny is that like as a format, like I actually, I love the format. I mean, many of my favorite films were made for television. When I think about, you know, Bird on a Wire or Fanny and Alexander, I mean, these were all made for TV, so I don't have a problem with television. You know, I love Curb Your Enthusiasm, I think it's a masterpiece.

I don't, it's, I'm not punching down. I just mean that the reality of the reality. But those are guys that had total control. I, I'm, I mean, Bergman and Larry David. But that's exactly what I mean. Yeah. You know, like there are, every once in a while,

there are these artists that are able to make something that was not built to support them function for them. Yeah. And I love that. Yeah. And I'm very supportive of that. So I just, you know, I want to be clear that I don't have a problem, you know,

with television, you know, I want to be clear that I don't have a problem, you know, with television, you know, writ large. My issue is that I've worked enough in the film industry that I understand how these things are made. And there is a reason that a, you know, a television show rarely has the same cultural impact as a film. Well, also, I noticed something just the other night, and I don't know why it took me so long to notice it. I saw an indie. impact as a film. Well, also I noticed something just the other night, and I don't know why it took me so long to notice it. I saw an Indie. It was a comedy. You know, it was obviously something that, you know, these two directors, you know, were like,

you know, put together for a few years. They had the script. And the film was serviceable. Yeah. But, you know, comedy's difficult because, you know, what's funny on the page, and if you want to make it funny on screen, you got to have a couple of sets of chops there And in terms of skill set yeah totally but filmically it was just flat and there

There's so many indies that you know these people churn out and they think it's their shot And they just want to sell it to a streamer But there's no real vision there in terms of encompassing the medium of they're working in Because and the reason that that I noticed this was because a guy you worked with, I talked to Kerry Kuhn the other day, so I watched The Nest. And you were in his first movie? Oh, it'd be Sean Durkin.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd seen the two within a day of each other, this comedy and The Nest, and I'm like, well, that's the difference. This guy's thinking about film. That's right. And not just thinking about these lines

that are supposed to equal funny if we just, you know, get them. Yeah, no, I, it's an interesting thing. I mean, at the PGA Awards with the Producers Guild, which was the night before last. There was one speech that I found rather unsettling where someone that was, I don't know who it was, but someone was accepting a prize and they essentially said that they don't buy into the authorial concept that they said, well, this is a collaborative medium, you

know, essentially suggesting that it was not a writer's medium, it wasn't a director's medium, but at the Producers Guild Awards that it was a producer's medium. And even though I actually think that's true, I mean, that's what I've just been saying, I found it unsettling that someone actually thinks about it that way. First. Literally. Right, because if you're lucky, you have a producer that is willing to fight you all the way

and you kind of come up with a vision for the thing. Well, it's a different, it's actually a totally different thing. So like, I have an extraordinary producer that I love who has a very different skill set than I do. Yeah. And, you know, we have different ambitions. Like, I want to make my films, and I think that he wants to, you know, change the...

I think he wants to totally, you know totally change the status quo. Like he has an ambition that is bigger than a project. It is like he wants to change the culture because he's frustrated with the way that things are functioning right now, or from his perspective, the way in which things are so dysfunctional at the moment. And I think that's very interesting because, you know, he of course can work on many, many

projects over the course of his life. Like you can produce many more films than one film at a time. I can only make one film at a time. So maybe if I'm lucky, I make seven to 12 films in my lifetime. And so this is just to say that, you know, I'm always disturbed by anyone who does a job that wants to be doing a different job. Like if you meet like an editor that wishes they were making the movie, that's not great.

Yeah, because then he's making a reel. Yeah, or if you want your costume designer to be passionate about costumes because they're bringing an expertise to the table that you simply don't have. And, you know, I'm, you're, you know, when you're making a film, you're curating an experience that hopefully will go well. It's a funny thing because on the one hand,

I genuinely believe that like a novel, you don't want a novel written by 25 people. You want a novel that's- I don't even want a novel with 25 people in it. Yeah. Wow. Well, that rolls out the Russian canon. Totally, totally.

Don't read Crime and Punishment, but make sure you write down the names. But there's a, you know, in all seriousness, I think what's so strange is that on the one hand, you know, I'm the first to admit that it is a completely collaborative media. Sure. And you know, this is the reason that, you know, COVID, like no good films came out of it.

Nobody was, like, in their house with their iPhone and made a masterpiece. Like, that didn't happen. Like, it just, I watched a lot of people who tried. It wasn't, it didn't work. I just did Instagram Lives, and that seemed to keep me going. But, I think that, you know, but on the other hand, you do sort of need a captain of a ship.

And I've worked for a lot of different captains, and I still work for different capt hand, you do sort of need a captain of a ship. And I've worked for a lot of different captains, and I still work for different captains, you know, like I direct second unit for people and I write screenplays for other directors. And I, you know, at the end of the day, like somebody needs the tiebreak. Like somebody needs, you know, to be like, be like, look, this is my project. I assume the responsibility. I sink with the ship. I sail with the ship.

And that's the only way that it works, because otherwise it just results in a lot of indecision. Well, I think that's what I was getting at with the producer that was different. Like at the time in the 70s when you had these auteurs, these American auteurs that had to really push back on vulnerable studios to honor their vision. I guess I was thinking specifically about Robert Evans.

Yeah, of course. But it seems that with you, that at this point in time, because the business has expanded to such a degree and making an independent film is a different game that you're able to forego having to fight with that executive structure in the same way. I don't, I haven't forgotten, well, I have to, it's funny, I think that I'll always be dealing with it

to some extent. I have a lot of support. I have an amazing team. It took me a long time to build that team, but I do have them now. And also, I make films that are relatively inexpensive, and that's important too. But they don't look inexpensive. Yeah, well, that's because if you spend money wisely and you move sand around in the box, you know, accordingly, you can make something that feels really big as long as you're spending money on what's going on screen and not just, you know, taking people to fucking Nobu or whatever on Friday

nights after a shoot. I mean, literally, like, I see the way that money is wasted and I find it frustrating Yeah, a lot of the time because you know, we could make a lot more movies With you know, let's say a hundred and fifty million dollars. That's you know, fifteen to thirty films well, right, but yeah, but so the the the the perks and the expectations of people who aren't necessarily on the creative side or what they think is the norm in ways of treating people

requires these accounts to kind of do that stuff. Yeah, it's kind of part of the charade. Totally. I mean, I used to do used to be a comedy festival in Montreal that was important at one time because it was before the internet you'd see new people. But that's sort of gone away. And then you just start to realize over time,

well, this is just three, four days or a week of executives on the payroll going there to party for a week. That's right. And that's the way the whole business is, is you get these people that are in it almost for the perks. Yeah, I mean, it's also, it's, you know, I don't wanna be too black and white about it because I do know so many extraordinary film executives

and I really mean that. But, you know, of course they're the exception to the rule. They just are, you know? Like, I mean, there are a few folks that really do their job with, they operate from a place of power, not fear. They are great producers in their own right. But generally, it is just someone that represents the company's interests, and they're just afraid of losing their job.

Yeah, they put in place a blame structure. Yeah, a blame structure, that's exactly right. That is exactly the right turn of phrase. And so I see all the time these folks that got their job for a reason. They've got really good taste. They have really good sensibilities. But they stop trusting their own sensibilities because they're having three staff meetings a week that are making them secondess themselves. And so, over the years, I mean, how many executives have spoken to me sort of off the record and

said like, listen, this is what I think. But my concern is what they'll think, you know? And I'm like, but you're they. Like, you are they. Like the blame, like this is the blame structure. And so it is this weird thing where I'm like, you have sort of othered like your colleagues, but you're all in, you're definitely othering us,

the people who made the work for you. So, I mean, I said to one executive, you know, who was sort of apologizing for how they had treated the film and stuff. This film. A film. Yeah. And they said, and you know, I was like, you know, I feel badly for you, but I was like, you know, like you have a

house with a swimming pool and I have a storage unit and these things are not equivalent. And it's a, and it was, it was, it was a strange thing because I, I, I was, I, on the one hand, I felt really kind of bad for them on a human level. On another level, I was pretty frustrated because I was like, you know, you have job security. My team and I, we're freelance for life. And yet we make the work that makes your job possible. And I just find there to be this, I'm very unsettled by the fact that, especially in America,

because it's essentially capitalism that's run amok. That, you know, filmmakers are infantilized and no one trusts them. It's like they need to be handled. Like, oh, handle the filmmaker, otherwise they're gonna lose us so much money. And I'm like, no, but we make you money. Like we give you the work that makes your job possible. So instead of being treated you know, being treated

with any degree of respect, you are strangely undermined all the time. And I find that really, really frustrating. I really believe that it's important that final cut tie break goes into directors' deals as something which is standard and presidential and for me it's mandatory. I will not make a film unless I have Final Cut full stop. And so I'm not, you know, this is how it works in many, many parts of the world except for

the US. I find it interesting that in Hollywood, where you and I are having this conversation specifically, that so many folks are politically so liberal and yet creatively so conservative. I find it really- Or fundamentally capitalist. Yeah, absolutely.

Of course. I mean, I could argue philosophically that even democratic socialist nations are fundamentally capitalist. Well that's the global economy. Correct. I mean, you look under the hood of the car, you find capitalism. But I just find it really interesting that like, I also find that right now in general, like the sort of the puritanical zeal of the left reminds me of conservatism of 75 years ago.

So I'm disturbed by that because I'm so far left that I'm falling off in the Pacific Ocean. But I find it strange that you know Freedom of speech etc is not really encouraged in this day and age well Yeah on both sides for different reasons that's correct You know like because you know as it's evolving you know all these people on the right who were yelling about free speech You know was really over a couple of words. ultimately, it was shallow in its understanding, and once they have it, it's very conditional.

They want the freedom to say, shut the fuck up to other voices. That's right. That's right. And the left seems to just want people to respect through language their position in life. Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. I think what's hard is that, like, what's at stake? Like, what's at stake is our culture,

because if everyone gets, you know, is too frightened to ever speak their mind, especially, you know, your current job, the job you're doing right now, that job doesn't exist anymore. Well, right, and it's- No one wants to have a real conversation because they're too frightened. It's frightened.

It's frightened for one reason or another. My fear, because generally I, as a person who talks and makes jokes, I don't mind necessarily adapting to humanizing language. Language evolves, and that's primarily around slang. But the fear of saying something, you know, as somebody with my point of view politically, if the fear starts to creep in that, you know, you're going to walk out of a theater and all of a sudden you're all alone out there at a hotel in Missouri, that you're unprotected and you know, who knows who knows you're in town and so that kind of fascistic

You know terror. Yeah, that's starting to creep up. Yeah. No, I think you're totally right I mean Jed Appetow made an amazing joke the other night Sort of sort of under his breath at the award show the DGA Awards, which he was hosting He was he was like He's like, all right. well, we're gonna wrap this up and I'm gonna go backstage, get online and find out how my career is going. And I was like, yeah, he's totally,

it's like, it's very funny because it's absolutely true. Like how many people did he manage to offend in like the last 45 minutes simply for existing and having a point of view. But like we're entering a place though that like he's worried about offending liberals. So like, you know, the as this whatever we're in evolves, the fear of offending fascists is is a deeper fear because it's existential. No, that's that that well, yeah, I mean, that's you're absolutely right.

And this conversation has gone deeper faster than I expected it to. But I totally agree with you. I mean, that's exactly I've been doing exactly right. I've been ending my show saying like, well, this hopefully this set will evolve into an HBO special that I'm shooting in May. And if that doesn't happen, you can say you saw me before the restrictions. Yeah, yeah, no, that's, yeah, that's, I mean, that's absolutely right.

That's absolutely right, but it's always this, this is the issue, right? Which is that, like, the pendulum always swings so fast and so hard in response to whatever. Yeah, you're just hoping the pendulum doesn't break. Yeah, yeah, that's well. Yes, that's correct. But going back, it seems that in your acting career, you went out of your way to work with

guys who were risk takers. And I can't get Losey out of my head because in the way that if you watch some of those Losey movies, when they're over, you're sort of like, what happened? And that you're not afraid to do that. And I think that on a capitalistic level, that's the biggest fear they have. It's like, what does the ending mean? Yeah, well, I think that it's interesting

because everyone wants a moral tale. Like they want to be told how and what to feel. And humans are more complicated than that. Yeah, well, I mean, look, I literally had I literally had a day, in the span of 12 hours, I was called Zionist pig and anti-Semite by two different people. And I was really shocked because, of course, I have a very private life. I had a more public life and then, you know, and I walked away from that.

Yeah, as an actor. Yeah, because that's a different level of just, you know, putting yourself out there. But that speaks to directly what we were speaking to is that you put this stuff out there and then people project onto it. And, you know, in terms of culture and the way you talk about culture,

you know, especially political culture, people aren't really tethered to a sense of history or context. So it's all reactive. And they're posturing. And if enough of them posture at the same time, then some movement happens. That's correct. You understand how it works.

Yeah. No, but I mean, you're totally right. I mean, and look, I think that making a film, making a show, putting out an album, whatever, it is a public art project. Which means that people can paint on it, they can piss on it, they can do whatever they want with it. Yeah, now tell me, like, getting back to the newest film and more specifically, let's start with, like, did you seek out directors that you would learn from

when you were taking roles, or did you just take roles? I mean, Lars Antruer, that's an outsider there. Yeah, I didn't think of it that way. I just worked with directors I wanted to work with. Right, well, so if you go deeper, it could be that reason. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to work with them because I was, you know, I loved their movies. What I realized was that I couldn't actually make a career of only working with directors that I liked.

You know, I mean, like great actors. You're going to have to sell out at some point if you do that. Well, I guess what it is, what I started realizing about actors, like real, like, you know, real performers, versus how I felt, because I felt sort of fraudulent. Like I was like, I don't know how it,

people were like, how was your day? I was like, I don't really know. Yeah, I think I did it. Yeah, I gave someone else raw material to work with. It's just like a weird, it was a weird thing. I didn't have a real sense of autonomy. But really great actors, I think that they just love it so much that they're happy to be there for the role.

They're happy to do their piece. And like they, and that's like, you know, and they can be like assassins. Like, if you're working with like, a really great performer, it's insane to see... Like Adrian? Like Adrian. I mean, Adrian is like, for me,

Adrian is like Gregory Peck. Like, he is like a performer of another era. Like, he, for me, even just like, aesthetically, like, you know, he's like of another time, and he feels like Robert De Niro. And I just think that, like, in a day and age where a very different kind of leading man is sort of like on the rise,

I'm so comforted personally as a filmgoer to watch someone like Adrian, you know, like as the top liner, you know? Um, uh, so, you know, I have this real affection for him and both him and Guy Pearce as well as Felicity Jones and Joe Alwyn and kind of like, you know, the main, you know main players on the film. They were just like, incredibly prepared

in a way that I was almost unaccustomed to. Like, they didn't miss a syllable. Like, every take was flawless. I mean, I, I mean, it was- That's fortunate when you're on film. Well, it wasn't flawless. It wasn't flawless on our side, you know? Like, we would have a bump in the track and we'd have issues.

But the only way that I was able to make this film in 33 days for $10 million was that I had, you know, a team that was so... Like, they'd worked for four months before they arrived. And I just appreciated it so much. Like I'm really so grateful to the entire cast. But the story is sort of informed, like some people are saying it's a sequel to the other movie that Adrian did with the-

The Pianist. Yeah, yeah, the Pianist. Which is interesting. Yeah, well, the pianist, which is interesting. Yeah, well, it's interesting because I haven't seen the pianist since it came out. But just as a character, I think I- No, of course, of course. I mean, I talked to Adrian, but what is about your life

that informed this story? I mean, it's a movie that, when you watch it, you're like, how did this not come from a book? So you kind of made a novel as a film that it's an original screenplay. So what was the moment where you're like, this is the area that I'm going to explore, because it'll get me to class issues, it'll get me to that period of capitalism, it'll get me to the Holocaust. I mean, it was a portal to a period in history, but also, you know, the struggle between art and commerce at that time.

I think that every film I've made is really about, like, a post-traumatic generation. So, the childhood of a leader was about the six months leading up to the signing of the Treaty of Versailles after the First World War and sort of about the way that Woodrow Wilson inadvertently paved the way for fascist uprising some 20 years later, Vox was a film about post-Columbine and post-911 America. What Vox and The Brutalists have very much in common is that when I was thinking about making a film on the post-war years and I was thinking a lot about post-war architecture

and how it was a response to what had sort of occurred in the first half of the 20th century. I was thinking about, you know, Mies van der Rohe, like, walking into, like, Lucille Ball's living room and I love Lucy and, like, presenting, like, his concept for space. And I was like, that's very, very radical. And I just think that like, you know, what's interesting about the 1950s is that like the American sitcom was very much in response to sweeping under the rug everything that had occurred just a few years earlier.

And Vox for me was about how Real Housewives of New Jersey was sort of a response to that as well. Like it's sort of about like the new culture is this thing which, you know, is... It seems to be... It seems to be really sweeping under the rug what's occurred just a decade earlier and trying to make light of a very disturbing moment in time. Like narcissism and solipsism, this is definitive of our era.

And of course it is because otherwise we would be doing something really meaningful about kids shooting other kids in the face on a daily basis. I mean, every week. I mean, I can't tell you how many festival programmers and stuff, they would come to me at the beginning of the movie, like before the film started, and they'd say, hey, can you just give a trigger warning,

you know, to the audience? Because they think they're coming to see a film about a pop star, but it opens with a school shooting. And I was like, no, that's sort of the point. The point is to not make them aware. Those kids didn't get a trigger warning? Yeah, well, exactly. And I was like, this happens, you know,

hundreds of times a year. I mean, so much so that it only qualifies as a mass shooting if three or more people are actually killed. Yeah. Like, forget about injured. Like, if they just get injured, like, for the rest of their life, that doesn't even make the news. It's interesting in that movie that you choose to make the terrorist act in the second act nebulous.

That shooting is shooting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But with this, with The Brutalist, I think the depth of the movie in terms of what you're talking about is shifting culture, but also anti-Semitism that eventually becomes part of the arc a bit. Absolutely. And just the struggle of an artist. I mean, it's all in there,

but so your initial interest was with Vanderohe. I mean, it sort of started actually with Marcel Breuer, who, for context, Walter Gropius had him positioned at a university in the US after the Bauhaus was shut down by the Nazis in 1935. In reality, there were zero examples of anyone that got stuck in the quagmire of the war, certainly like, you know, that survived the camps, and then went on to have a career in

the 1950s. That didn't happen. Yeah. I consulted a specialist to ask them that question specifically, a guy named Jean-Louis Cohen. And I said, because I wanted to make sure that if we were going to tell this sort of virtual history, that there was no overlap with any existing person. Yeah. And there wasn't.

Because the film was sort of, for me, it was, we always talk about the lives lost, of course. But there were also the livelihoods lost. And I, whilst going through the Bauhaus archives, looking at all of these unrealized projects, it was so, it was devastating. Like I felt really devastated about it. And I just thought about all these young visionaries that must have felt so exhilarated about the potential of the future. And then they had everything taken from them.

And I just found it really, really, really profoundly upsetting. And I felt that the film would serve as a kind of memorial. Because it's absolutely fictional. But, you know, I described it to Felicity and Adrian as the refugees' revenge. Yeah. And the film is working on several levels, of course.

It's a 1950s melodrama with a capital A antagonist that could rival Joseph Cotton or James Mason. And it also has the bluntness of a 1950s melodrama. And it was not constructed with subtlety in mind. It really wasn't. I mean, just because the 1950s, if we look at Powell and Pressburger, and I was specifically thinking about Michael Powell and Peeping Tom, which was a film that kind of ruined Michael's career, even though it's a masterpiece. And I was constantly like thinking, you know, like, oh, well, what would Douglas Urk do? And that was sort of, I think, our guiding light through the process. But of course, it's investigating very contemporary

issues and those themes are universal. I mean, beyond, you know, the fact that our character and characters are Jewish and their Jewishness, you know is They all have a different relationship with I mean the youngest girl is clearly quite conservative or becomes quite conservative Whereas you know Adrian's character I think is is ultimately more consumed with you know His his body of work and his own ego. There's not enough space for a higher power. Right. And then you get the American friend or cousin or whatever he was who's...

Who denies it completely. ...who are trying to pass. Yeah, exactly. What's interesting to me in talking to you is that the depth of your empathy, you know, outside of the horror of genocide, was really about artists being shut down. Yeah, well, it was about the way in which the immigrant experience and the artistic one, for me, are very similar. Which is to say that, you know, an artist is fighting for the right for their projects to exist, you know, the immigrant is fighting for their right for their family to co-exist.

And I find that, you know, like, the first chapter of the film, part one, takes its name from the V.S. Naipaul book, The Enigma of the film, part one, takes its name from the VS and I Paul book, The Enigma of Arrival, which is a memoir that he wrote about emigrating from Trinidad to the UK, where he eventually lived for 20-something years at Stonehenge. And part of the reason that there are these sort of cues in the film, there's signals that this is something that is bigger than one minority. It is something which is acknowledging all minorities and certainly all artists.

And it's the reason that every character in the film has a backstory. I mean, part of the reason that the film is as long as it is is that there are no peripheral characters. They all kind of matter. Yeah. And have, you know, they have a meaningful, you know, sequence in the film.

And to get into create that space for those characters, it just kind of adds up to being over three hours long, right? But what's funny is that I also think it's much more immersive and I've never I Mean, I truly truly haven't had like anyone complain about the length once they've seen the film, right? Like I mean, I've had many people griping about it before they watch the movie. No, I found it to be, you know, just right. Yeah, it moves.

It moves. It moves at a clip. It really does. Yeah. But I also think that when you're taking up that much space, like, you really feel like, okay, we gotta get the show on the road. Yeah. So, like, I mean, I certainly felt that editorially,

like, I didn't feel that I could indulge very much. Um, and, uh, because I, too, had to watch it. Like, it was not, like, and not only did I have to watch it, but I had to watch it over and over again. I think I saw the film from start to finish, like, you know, maybe over over 60 times. Yeah, so what hours? Yeah, I mean that's it was really something like I Watching that many prints on 35 millimeter on 70 millimeter on the DCP the IMAX version I mean every single version has to be supervised by you and your team. And usually there's something wrong,

so then you have to watch it again. And then again, and again. And so I definitely got a dose of my own medicine. And I understand that people's time is valuable. I mean, it wasn't an option for me to turn it off. At least everyone else can walk out at intermission if they're not feeling it. Take a break, yeah. Or yeah, at intermission if they're not feeling it.

Yeah, take a break. Or yeah, or not come back. Or not come back. So in terms of creating the illusion of space on the expense level, the structure itself, was that the biggest hurdle? No. Squeaky Wheel gets the oil. I mean, that was obviously top of mind. So we worked on that for every single day of our pre-production period of 12 weeks. Yeah.

You know, it was done in a very old-fashioned way. We built a practical model, Star Wars style. It was enormous. It wasn't as big as the building as in the film. But you had real texture, real light, real shadow. That's part of the reason that it looks as good as it looks. We also built a big portion of the Institute to scale so that you would have certain shots that really, you know,

basically the front of the building actually existed. And then we just sort of digitally extended it with our practical models. So we were using techniques from a century ago and combining them with the techniques of today. And so, yeah, it was interesting. And I think that the character of the structure becomes very important because it remains unfinished.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I think, I mean, that's totally right. I mean, that's my incredibly perverse sense of humor that you've sat there for three and a half hours and then you actually never see them turn the lights on. Um, but... But that is the creative process. The creative process is generally disappointing. So I think it was sort of...

It really is. It's like, you have, like... You know, you're constantly, you're like... Is it... Is it worth it? Like, I don't... After a certain point. Like, I don't know. I don't know that it was worth it. Like, I don't... After a certain point. Like, I don't know. I don't know that it was worth it. I'm not sure.

Like, so I suffer, the film made seven, you know, was made over the course of seven years. By the time I'm done with this promotional campaign, it will have been eight years. I'm definitely, like, you know, years of my life have been eroded as a result of the stress of making the film, of protecting the flame of the film. And, you know, I can't...

Even though the film was like, you know, has been... so impactful and ultimately even commercially viable, which is kind of amazing. It's doing all right. Yeah, it made $25 million. I mean, it cost 10, so it's done. You're good. Yeah, I'm good.

I cleared the hurdle. And now you're just waiting for your check? God, I wish. I wish that's how it worked. This is not how it works. The waterfalls are so fucked up. Everyone gets paid back 17 times over before you make a dollar as its creator.

It's amazing. But no, I'm, I just, I do really wonder. Like, my daughter's ten and a half years old and I missed out on a lot in the last few years to make the film. And fortunately, you know, we have an amazing relationship and we FaceTime constantly, even when I'm away and stuff, but it's not the same. And I can't, I don't know if eight years of torment is worth, you know, four months of success.

Like, it's hard, I don't know that that, it's, that's a very difficult thing to qualify. Now- But at least the time, like, you know, as, having done the small amount of acting I've done, on a set, it becomes like that too, is the four hours in the trailer worth the five minutes? Because what are you gonna do with your time?

I mean, at the very least, you can say you were actively engaged with a process you had control over for a long amount of time. No, no, no. I mean, look, I also, I posed the question almost rhetorically. There's a possibility, you know, I don't think I would do things a different way. Cinema for me is like a cathedral and it's something that I very much worship at the altar of for whatever fucked up reason.

But I do, as I get older, as I, you know, as you get older, you start saying goodbye to people, you know? I mean, people drop dead. And I think that you value your time differently, and I think that you have different priorities, and I definitely think that there's certain sacrifices that I made a decade ago that I couldn't make today. You know, as you get older,

you can't sleep on people's couches anymore. It's like that weird thing. Well, it's like a funny, I used to be the most flux, I was like, oh, I'll just sit down. Oh no. Now I'm like. Where's the hotel? Yeah, oh yeah, like where's the nicest hotel in town?

Yes. Like, like, like, it is like, it's very funny because I really, I slum it at home, but I'm on the road and I'm just like, I get pretty fucking fancy. Well, yeah, fancy, but I'm on the road and I'm just like, I get pretty fucking fancy. Well, yeah, fancy, but also it protects your, it's a boundary in a way, that you only have these small bits of life that you can

kind of insulate yourself. I wanna take a bath. Yeah, exactly. No, I wanna take a bath, a comfortable bath. Yeah, you don't wanna worry about like, what time, are you gonna need the living room? You know? Yeah, but totally.

I mean, that's exactly right. I mean, I've made, like, when I had my daughter, you know, my partner and I, we were like, we were like a circus family. Like, we slept on so many couches and so many spare bedrooms. And, you know, I think the three of us slept in twin beds and stuff.

Yeah, yeah. And then, and now, it's just fucked us up. And now we're, we can't do it anymore. Yeah, you can't do it anymore. Well, I appreciate that you are a worshipper in the cathedral of cinema. Thank you. And despite the length of time it took you to make this,

I assume you're, you know, whatever you're saying now will shift a little bit as soon as you immerse yourself in the next thing. Yeah, I think that as soon as I get a little bit of sleep, honestly, like I just, I've been on a world tour for so long and I think that, you know, the Oscars are on March 2nd and- You excited?

I'm excited for it all to be over. Okay. I really am. I don't have, I'm really also excited about the foundation that it has helped my team and I build to make our work more sustainable. Like you are freelance for life and I don't expect this

to completely change my whole world, because the reality is that most people don't remember who won something a year ago or two years ago, like literally. And, but- Until the lists come out. Yeah, but what's cool is that for the next 365 days, What's cool is that for the next 365 days, especially,

we can use this sort of boost, this jolt of energy and attention to build a stronger foundation for the next project. And I think that ultimately you're always just, you know, like looking towards the next gig and- Do you know what it is? I do, yeah, I do. And, uh. Do you know what it is? I do. Yeah, I do. And, and I've, I've been working on it for a long time

and, and I'm, and I'm excited about it. So I feel really like, um, I'm just, I'm excited to do something very different and, uh, and it's also a very different period of world history. And I just, you know, I'm, I'm, it'll, it'll be nice to. What period? Spans 150 years, so... That's a pretty big arc.

Yeah. It's not, it... The majority, I would say, of the film is, it takes place in the 70s. Oh, that's a good time. Yeah, yeah, it is. It'll... It's, I've worked in it before, but, but this, it's sort of about American mysticism

and a lot of things that I'm sort of fascinated by. Oh, that sounds exciting. Thanks for talking, man. Thanks, pal. I appreciate it. That was a great conversation. The Brutalist is nominated for Best Director, Best Original Screenplay, and Best Picture at the Oscars. It's still in theaters. Go see it! And now you're all loaded up with what we talked about.

Hang out for a minute, folks. Do you have business insurance? If not, how would you pay to recover from a cyber attack, fire damage, theft, or a lawsuit? No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. At Algoma University, your future has no limits.

Here, you can go further, in the classroom, in the field, and well beyond. We provide personalized education, cultural fluency, and training for in-demand careers. We don't just prepare you for the future. We prepare you to change it. Plus, Algoma has the most affordable tuition in Ontario. Make the most of your university experience. Go further. Apply to Algoma University today. Hey people, on Thursday, you'll hear a great talk I had with comedian Moe Ammer.

We talked about comedy, his Netflix show, and his life as a Palestinian American. I will tell you, after watching the last special and both seasons of the show, my appreciation for hummus and olive oil has taken, it's in new depth. I have new depth. Well, you know, I always liked it, but like, you know, it's so omnipresent in both the special and the shows. I'm like, holy fuck, I've really got to consider this in a real way now. Yes, please do. Please do, because it's wildly irritating when people don't.

Like you just walk into a fucking restaurant and they're like, here's your hummus. I'm like, it's grainy, it's like in a South Side, and it's like carrots and fucking, what is this? Yeah, well I'm relatively, I understand the purist approach to it, because when I was in Astoria, you go to the Egyptian place and they give you hummus. And you're like, I can't, no matter what kind of food processor I have, I can't,

I can't get it to this texture. There's like no way I can get it this smooth. And then like, and I get obsessed with it. And even watching your show, I'm like, what is the special grinder that's gonna get it this smooth? That episode with Mo Amher is coming up on Thursday. To get every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for WTF+. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Here's a pretty simple pass at some guitar work here. I know, my confidence waffles with everything. So I'm gonna be a good boy. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.