WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1623 - Will Oldham

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Prolific singer-songwriter Will Oldham has been able to maintain what Marc calls “a haunting and elated tone” over the course of his career, whether in his collaborations with other artists or under the name Bonnie “Prince” Billy. Will talks with Marc about how his music stems from the example of his artist mother, records checked out of the library, and his Kentucky roots. They also talk about his recent album The Purple Bird as well as Will’s acting career, which launched when he was a teenager and John Sayles cast him in the film Matewan. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey folks, I need your questions. I'm getting ready for another Ask Mark Anything bonus episode on the Full Marin, so fire away. Just click on the link in the episode description and send me a question. Then subscribe to the Full Marin so you can get every Ask Mark Anything bonus episode. Alright, let's do the show. losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today, starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected, be Zen. I travel a lot, especially lately during this tour. I mean, I've been to Boulder, Colorado,

Fort Collins, Colorado, Missouri, Kansas City, heading out more in the days to come. And if you've got any travel coming up, an Airbnb co-host can take care of everything. So you can host your place on Airbnb while you're away. They'll create the listing for you, manage your reservations, and stay in touch with your guests.

So your co-host does all the work and you still make some cash while you're away. Find a co-host at air at airbnb.ca slash host. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Nick's? How's it going?

I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. WTF. Welcome to it. Are you alright out there? Wow, right? Every day. Holy shit. I'm dealing. I'm doing okay today. I try to stay engaged, entertained, self-aware. I try to allot myself about, not even intentionally, about, I don't know, two to three hours of relentless catastrophic thinking and panic a day.

And then I actually exhaust myself and it frees me up to do other things. I don't know if that's a healthy process or spiritual or practical. It just seems to be something that happens, that exhausted peace of mind. But look, today on the show, I talked to Will Oldham. Now this guy, he's been on my periphery for a long time, and you may know him as Bonnie Prince Billy. He records under that name for most of his stuff. He's

put out more than two dozen studio albums, and the latest is called Purple Bird. He's also an actor who's been in movies like The Bike Riders, Wendy and Lucy, and Old Joy, but also Matewan. Remember John Sayles? And Will Oldham, as a kid, actually played the child preacher in that.

And it's a performance that before I never, I found out that he was that guy years later after I knew about or I'd heard about or listened to Bonnie Prince Billy, because that role when he was a kid as that preacher kid was haunting and intense and menacing. He's a fundamental part of that movie and he's like I don't know I talked to him about it I can't remember how old he said he was but probably under 20 you know and it was it

was it was memorable but now Bonnie Prince Billy is one of those guys not unlike some of the other drag city artists that label Who just are very prolific put out a lot of work and a lot of it is great I don't even know how you'd really classify will I guess there's a folk element but he's not beyond doing kind of rock ish records and he's not beyond collaborating with people from other types of music, and he's quite the artist, this guy. And I was a little, I don't know if I was nervous

talking to him, but I'd met him once before, and I felt like there was a tension there. But I can create that with anybody, and not even in the moment. I am totally in my head. But I didn't know if we would get along. He had done some musical work with a guy I know. Him and Matt Sweeney did that amazing record, Super Wolf.

And that's where I sort of, I'd gotten the Bonnie Prince Billy records before, and I'd listened to them here and there, but the Super Wolf record really kind of blew my mind and I talked to Sweeney about that. But then I just started getting into Will and into Bonnie Prince Billy, and there's a lot of really lyrically and musically beautiful work

with a lot of different types of musicians. And so when the opportunity came up to talk to him, I did. I had this conversation that you'll hear today, and it's a very, it's pro-art. It's pro-self-expression. It's pro-poetry. It's pro-finding your voice in what you do. It's pro-community. It's all those things that are, that we still have to believe are important to maintain humanity and civilization the best we can. Communicating

through expression and art and engagement. Can you dig it? Can you dig it? It's a good conversation. I'm glad we met. He actually came out to see me down in Louisville when I was there, because that's where he lives, him and his wife and some friends. And they're kind of like rural groovy. You know what I mean? Tonight, I'm in Oklahoma City at the Tower Theater. Tomorrow night, I'm in Dallas at the Majestic Theater.

Saturday, I'm in Houston at the White Oak Music Hall. And Sunday, I'm in San at the Majestic Theater. Saturday I'm in Houston at the White Oak Music Hall. And Sunday I'm in San Antonio at the Empire Theater. Then Durham, North Carolina. I'll be at the Carolina Theater of Durham on Friday, March 21st. Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm at the Knight Theater on Saturday, March 22nd. And I'll be in Charleston, South Carolina at the Charleston Music Hall on Sunday, March 23rd. Then I'm coming to Illinois, Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York City

for my special taping. Go to WTFPod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Alright? In uncertain times, folks, people look for peace of mind and a sense of security wherever they can find them. With SimpliSafe, millions of Americans enjoy greater security and peace of mind every time they arm their system. When they head out each morning or when they lock up each night.

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listeners get 50% off their new simply safe system with professional monitoring and their first month free at simply safe.com slash WTF that's simply safe.com slash WTF for 50% off. There's no safe like simply safe. So what's going on? You guys watching the shows? Are you watching the shows? Are you watching the white lotus? Are you watching the severance or my kind of a pigeonholing myself into a bubble of people that watch those shows? I don't know what everybody watches

But I also rewatched a face in the crowd if you got criterion again Is this a bubble mine a bubble of people that do this a face in the crowd is on criterion channel Now this is a I believe it it's a Bud Schulberg script. It's Ilya Kazan directing and it's Andy Griffith from the Andy Griffith Show. You know, if you've ever watched reruns of that, I don't know how old you are. I mean, I never saw it originally, it's really old,

but he was just sort of a aw shucks guy, you know, on the sheriff and Don Knotts was on there and a little Ron Howard. And it was kind of a nice simple life, kind of, you know, kind of goofy, but not menacing. But A Face in the Crowd is one of the best movies about show business ever. And specifically about the sort of megalomaniacal celebrity and the impact of that. It was a different culture and a different,

certainly a different business in the way it operated back then. But the movie, it's menacing Griffith, it's evil Griffith, it's Griffith, Andy Griffith, the human monster that you understand and get. The character is genius. You got to watch it. I told Nate Barghetti to watch it because I think he'd enjoy it.

It's funny because I was talking to Nate and I was like, you like Andy Griffith? He's like, of course, I love Andy Griffith. I'm like, you ever seen Evil Andy Griffith? Well, I want Nate to watch it just because there's a moral lesson in it about show business. Look at where this can go when you get huge. I guess it was a little passive aggressive, but it was a I think it was a a friendly and uh, honest thing to do.

But I would recommend that movie to anybody while it's out because it's not one of those movies you can find easily. I guess you can if you're looking for it, but it's right there on Criterion. And it's about a guy, just kind of a, is the word itinerant? He was just a drifter, a drunky drifter with a guitar in a jail cell. And some local reporter in Arkansas, Patricia Neal, is doing a radio show of people telling their stories about their lives. She goes into this jail and interviews Andy Griffith's character. He's called Lonesome Rhodes.

I think his name's Larry. He's just such a charming, yarn spinning, you know, kind of a rural character. And it's just about from that moment where they talk in that jail cell and people respond to him on the radio, his kind of journey through stardom to becoming the biggest star seemingly in the country. And then one of his sponsors wants to maneuver him and his charm into helping a politician get elected president. And then it's just sort of the megalomaniacal character versus his new power and what he does with it and can he handle it. And there's a genius kind of, I think might be the first performance of of Lee Remick and Walter Mathau plays a writer. And it is such an amazing and thorough examination

of fame and demagoguery through celebrity that exists, it might be the best one. So I recommend watching that fucking thing, but then again I'm in show business and I feel like I have to watch it every few years just to make sure I understand the world I run in. Alright, so look, Will Oldham is Bonnie Prince Billy. There's a new Bonnie Prince Billy album, The Purple Bird. It's now available wherever you get music. This is me talking to Will Oldham. This new year, why not expand your life by listening on Audible?

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I'm just like getting over a minor trauma that happened just minutes before you got here. I was putting some honey on a cracker with peanut butter on it and I just cleaned out the top of Dr. Bronner's All-in-One soap to get the, you know, when it solidifies on the top. I guess some of that was on my finger and I assumed it was honey. And I took a nice hit of lavender, Dr. Bronner's all in one.

Gross. Yeah, but I felt like it was gonna be healthy in the long run. I didn't feel like it was gonna hurt me. I think it'll be good for you. Because of Bronner's. Do you use Bronner's? I've used it forever.

Forever, right? Yeah. I learned it about a camp in Southern Indiana in the 80s, and we would go out in the woods, and that's what everybody brought with them to bathe in the rivers. Yeah, we were kids. Yeah, and it stays with you forever.

Yeah, that's the only thing I like to use. But lavender, I have a thing with lavender like some people have with cilantro. Oh really? Where I don't find it a pleasant flavor, I don't find it a pleasant smell, I don't find it a pleasant smell, and I'm sure that it has some weird genetic thing. It's not, I don't think it's a bad smell,

it just doesn't work for me. Like some people can't stand cilantro and I think it's wonderful. Yeah, cilantro, coriander, great. But some people repelled. Yeah, I have that with lavender. Well, I don't think you should eat lavender generally. Yeah, but they put it in cupcakes,

cookies, and things like that. In your fancy town? They put some lavender in the cookie? Everywhere, yeah. My wife likes to cook with it sometimes. Oh, yeah? In sweets, mostly sweets, yeah. Yeah, I guess it's a nice hint of this or that.

It can be, but. So, dude, you know, we met once, and somehow in my mind, I decided we have problems, but we don't. Yeah. We'll see at the end of this conversation or halfway through it. We do, do you think maybe we do? Who knows? I, are you guys?

There's a class divide, there's a continental divide. Is there? Yeah, there's big rocky mountains in the middle of the United States of America. Where do you come from? Arizona, is that right? I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico. New Mexico. And, uh, but, uh, I'm Jersey, genetically.

Oh. New Jersey. Righteously. Sure. I mean, you got, like, it's something to be proud of. I think so. Jersey. It wasn't always. But now I own it pretty heavy. Yeah.

I own the, cause I, uh, you Springsteen fan? Some. Some? Yeah. Like, like, well, this is a good question. I liked his interview. With me? Was I a East Spring scene fan? Some. Some? Yeah. Like, well this is a good question. I liked his interview. With me?

Yeah. That was pretty intense. It was great. But Nebraska, have an impact? It seemed like a natural thing to pick up when I was a kid and it never hit me, but have you ever heard, I'm sure they, if they haven't put a box out of it, they will,

but there's maybe 30, 40 songs recorded around the same time. Those really, really do it to me, but the Nebraska record, it doesn't do a thing, except for My Father's House. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it just seems like that model. I mean, you were a kid still? When I heard it, I was probably 14 or 15,

something like that, and it had come out maybe five years before. But it was one of those things where it's like, he's just doing it in his bedroom. Yeah. It's a big deal. Well, I get, wait, wait, is that a big deal? No.

Yeah, I mean. I know what the big deal was, because I just appeared in the movie as Chuck Plotnik. All right. And I read the book. I read the 33 and a Third Born in the USA, which covers a lot of that stuff. Did Warren Zanes write that one?

I don't remember who wrote it. Warren Zanes wrote the book on the making of Nebraska. Deliver Me From Nowhere. And I think the issue at that time was that after he recorded those things that were supposed to be demos-ish, he didn't know what he wanted to do with them, that they tried it every which way to do it with the band,

to do it this way or that way, and he decided that they tried to record the songs in the studio, which is him on the guitar, but they wanted the recordings that he did on that T-AC four-track, but they couldn't figure out a way to transfer it onto vinyl with the quality necessary to make. Necessary to make... Yeah.

To make millions of dollars or what? Well, I don't think that was... I think that was the big problem is that, you know, he was poised to be... He'd already started at Boyam in the USA. Yeah. And they were like, this is it, Bruce. And he's like, I don't want to do that. Yeah.

I'm going to do these songs. I don't want my face on the cover. I don't want an ad campaign. I would have picked different songs out of the repertoire that I've heard from Bootlegs. I would have picked different songs out of the repertoire that I've heard from bootlegs. I would have chosen different songs. The song Nebraska always bothered me, because it's a song about what's it about. Yeah, isn't it about the killers?

No, it's about the movie Badlands. Right. Masquerading is a song about the killers, which I don't, I mean, it's like, I don't want to hear Bruce Springsteen sitting in a movie theater. If he wants to write a song about Charles Starkweather, I want to hear that. But I don't really mean it's like I don't want to hear Bruce Springsteen sitting in a movie theater If he wants to write a song about Charles Stark weather I want to hear that but I don't really care what his experience sitting in a movie theater watching Sissy Spacek twirling a baton is you know what I'm saying? I do know what you're saying

It's like a not a song about what it's what people say It's about it's a song about Terrence Malick's vision of Charles Stark whether with Martin Sheen and Sissy Spacek Right and that in that gave him the vibe. Gave him the vibe. That drove the whole record. But it's not an earnest vibe. It's not an authentic vibe. Except there is on all those other songs,

there's a lot of pretty intense stuff, and My Father's House is pretty intense. Maybe just that selection for me just didn't necessarily do it. And at the time, if you're listening to, as he was, like Suicide, he was listening to Suicide, if you're listening to certain records at that time, it's not a very intense record.

Nebraska is not an intense record compared to the things that he was even listening to or that we might have been listening to. Right, yeah, to that first Suicide record. He gives them credit. He doesn't owe back. Oh my gosh, yeah, no. Jersey boy friend of mine, Alan Licht,

sent me from like a live acoustic tour in the 90s maybe. And he does, what did he do? He does Dream Baby Dream. Dream Baby Dream, yeah. And he does it at the end of his, and now he talks about Alan Vega, and he plays this long, beautiful harmonium version. It's so gorgeous.

Yeah, well that's good that he gives the credit. I once, cause I was in a movie in my teens called Mate One, Jersey movie. I mean, mate, I just. Your performance in that teens called Mate One, Jersey movie, I mean made by just a play. Your performance in that, it like haunts me still. So John Sayles made it and he'd also made like The Gory Days at least video for Springsteen. After?

Around that time. Oh really, yeah. So yeah, so a woman who worked with Springsteen was around and eventually became his manager, Barbara Carr. Yeah, maybe, yeah. I think that's right. And once I was on a plane coming to Australia from Melbourne to Sydney,

and then Sydney I was going back to the States, and Springsteen was on the plane. Oh yeah. And he had played the night before in Melbourne and I had played the night before. Yeah, different venues. He was walking with this woman that I had met in West Virginia, and I'd played the night before. So, and he was walking with this woman that I'd met in West Virginia,

and I was like, hello, Barbara. And she said, hey, Will. She's like, Bruce, you know, this is this guy that I had told you about. And then she introduced me to Bruce. She peeled off, we're walking through the airport and Springsteen's like, heard you made a pretty good record.

You know, I was like, yeah. I was like, yeah, we competed last night in Melbourne. Talked for a minute, he was so sweet. He was, and he was on the set of the movie the whole time. So anytime they- Oh, wow. I didn't have a big part, but anytime they said cut, I could just go talk to Bruce. How will it be as a motion picture?

Good question. My question about it is really, I mean, the story's compelling about trying to get this sound and his tortured nature at that time, trying to get that sound, his tortured nature at that time, trying to get that sound, and then eventually getting that sound. But is that a, you know, is that gonna,

is that story something regular people are going to be engaged with? And I guess enough people love Springsteen that maybe they will. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Your new record's fucking great, buddy.

I appreciate you saying that. I really love it. Like, there's a couple of songs on there. The breathing song. Oh yeah, sometimes it's hard of songs on there. The breathing song. Oh, yeah. Sometimes it's hard to breathe. Yeah. Love that one. Thank you.

And I like the gun song. Yeah, right on. Do you feel like elated or destroyed? Yeah. Exalted. Exalted or destroyed. Exalted or destroyed. Yeah.

So when you're writing that, do you feel like, are you like, yes, exalted or destroyed? Because the poetry, I have to assume you're writing constantly. In periods of time. There's like periods that are writing periods, and then periods that are revision periods. Right.

Yeah. And the revision periods are longer than the writing period. But how does it work for you? Because it's all, you know, you've sort of maintained this relatively haunting, but elated tone for a long time. And they must all come from the same place, which is your heart and mind.

But you don't carry a little notebook around? I do, I mean, I carry a tiny notebook around, like a little memo pad. Yeah, like this, yeah. And you just scribble things? No, most of it is like if I'm away from my real notebook, which is the like whatever six inches by nine inches one is the like whatever, six inches by nine inches one or whatever, six inches by eight inches,

something like that. That's usually at home. I don't trust most things that happen when I'm traveling in terms of my brain. Really? Yeah. You have that? Musically, like when we're performing, I trust that,

but I don't trust like trying to write something. But things don't just all of a sudden come, little noodle, little riff, little turn of phrase, and you write it down on the plane and you're like, can't trust that. I just don't, yeah, I think I wouldn't put my mind to that, in that position, I guess. Like it's got so much to do when we're like out on the road

playing music, my brain has way too much to do already. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So only sometimes there'll be a song that we're playing and I'll stumble on a line and I keep stumbling on it night after night and think, oh, I guess that means I have to rewrite that line and then rewrite that line. And it, oh, something happens organically

and you change it? It happens organically that it's screwed up and I can't, like I can't remember a line, even though I've tried to sing it 70 times or something like that. Just stumble every time. I even write it on the set list. I'll write the line down and think, why am I doing that?

Obviously that line doesn't want to be in the song. So I gotta listen to it. Gotta listen to it, yeah. I gotta listen to whatever delivered me that line to begin with. And then it's fun because you're in shape anyway. You're in fighting shape, but you just don't have the time to sit down.

But one line, I can work on one line with the idea that I'm gonna throw it in the song tomorrow night. Sure. Yeah. And do people notice or just you? I have no idea what anybody notices or thinks. I mean, it's been really fun talking about this Purple Bird record,

because people are, I don't, the songs are really easy to get into. And so people are talking about so many specifics about specific songs. It's really exciting. Well, it's like an interesting record because like the production on it, and like, you know, you have probably like 40 records.

You know, you drag city guys put out a record every few months. I try to think of it as one a year. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it feels like a legit country record. Is that wrong? Well, I mean, it's funny because it's a legitimate Nashville record. And it's made within the system, the Nashville system, in a way that has been in practice

for decades. Okay. So, you know, in terms of engineering and the guys you use? Engineering, the musicians, and then the style of, like the way we did it, Ferg, the producer, he calls his team of guys, and we all get in the studio, and there's 12 songs, we're gonna do them in two days,

and I sit in the corner, play the song on a guitar for the keyboard player, Mike Rojas, he writes down the progression, and Xerox hands it to everybody, and then we play it. And then we might do up to, if we're doing four takes, we're in trouble, four to five takes is we're in trouble. So we just, we do six songs roughly one day

and six songs the next day. And that's a Nashville kind of style of recording. And that's pre-pop country, old school Nashville. Yeah, I mean, it was people that thought it was pop country, you know, at the time. We think of Conway Twitty as hardcore and people would have laughed at that idea. Yeah, they were making pop country,

but as opposed to the layers of sound, three or four producers, let's bring a R&B guy in to lay down a beat, no. But Ferg has made a lot of country music. He's probably started his professional career maybe in the late 70s, I think, and as a producer and as an engineer and as a player sometimes.

And to him, you know, he announced to me, he said, Willie, let's not. I don't want to make a country record. And I said, that's fine with me. So to Fergs ears and probably to mine, we did not make a country record. But I know that to the rest of the world, just like I knew when I left Louisville, Kentucky as a teenager and moved to the Northeast for a country record, but I know that to the rest of the world, just like I knew when I left Louisville,

Kentucky as a teenager and moved to the Northeast for a little bit, everybody said I had a really strong accent. I never thought I had an accent. I don't even know if I have one anymore. But at the time, they kept making fun of me. It's like, oh, I guess this is country music. It's just the music that we played, even with the conscious directive from Ferg to not make a country record

But I still recognize it as a well. I think I like I it must have been the production I mean, there's a couple of songs that he didn't want to make a country record No, but I mean like I think it's a couple of the songs structurally are kind of country and then there's other stuff there's like I think the gun song almost sounds like it's got a kind of a I think the Gunn song almost sounds like it's got kind of a Leonard Cohen gypsy groove to it almost. That's interesting. Ferg said polka. He said he wanted to say when he heard the lyrics, he said, we have to do this as a polka.

Really? Yeah. And I think it was just a production thing because even with those later Steve Earle records, he's not necessarily playing country music, but you know, he's a country guy. I suppose, yeah. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. But your decision to do it that way was you wanted to do the Nashville thing?

No, this record was kind of 110% just wanting to do something with Ferg. Okay. And sort of play by Ferg's rules. Right. And almost, I mean, almost every idea about making the record, including the writing of the bulk of the songs,

came from ideas that Ferg had about how we should do things. So when you're doing this, there's a whole discovery process that happens outside of your song. A whole discovery process, yeah. Because your control is limited to like, well, this is outside of your song. A whole discovery process, yeah. Absolutely. Because your control is limited to like, well, this is how I play it, this is the words, and then these guys, they get their charts done and they pass them out and you're like, what's going to happen?

Yeah. What was dreamy about this, it was kind of, I would imagine many people's, it was my fantasy and I didn't even know it was my fantasy because I've been doing this for a living for 30 years and I haven't ever quite had this experience. But the fantasy of, you know, we put the songs together, we started putting the songs together, writing them without the intention of necessarily making a record and then decided to.

So then there's these songs, I practice them at home, revise, practice, revise, and then we get in there and at that point, all I am is the featured vocalist. I'm the singer, whatever you call it, the artist on the session whose name goes on it. But that's my job and everybody else's job is to sort of buoy the things that my voice does. And that's how it played out.

Virg said, get up there, get on that mic and sing and everybody will be there and they're gonna go where your voice goes. Was it amazing? It was so amazing. It was just so amazing. First time experience? I had done a thing.

So the first time I went to Nashville was in the early 2000s. I was trying to make a record in Shelbyville, Kentucky with my younger brother where we used to make records out there. And it wasn't working. I called the late David Berman to say, what should I do?

And he said, you should go to Nashville and work with this fellow, Mark Nevers. I went down and worked with Mark Nevers. We made a very simple, we were making a very simple record with me playing guitar, singing, my brother Paul playing bass. And then I said, well, what if we wanted to have a woman singing on this record?

Mark said, well, I'll just call the singer's union and what do you want? I said, somewhere between Sandy Denny and Dolly Parton. So he calls and describes it. They send over this woman named Marty Slayton and she's just the most fluent, efficient, amazing, expressive musician that I'd ever worked with in a studio, because that's her job.

That's like how Nashville people work. You know, in Louisville or other places where I'd been, the artists are, you know, all strappy. You all know each other, yeah. And you go to the coffee shop, and you're like, you want to do this cut? Exactly. Nobody's, nobody, it's never, it's not that urgent. Everybody has other jobs.

Yeah. But she, this is what she did. And Mark saw my jaw drop, and he said, we can make a whole record like this if you know. But she, this is what she did. And Mark saw my jaw drop and he said, we can make a whole record like this if you want. Just this kind of, and so maybe a year later I went back and he put together an A team of Nashville Session guys cause Nevers had been in the industry in the 80s. And so that was the first, but I brought a bunch of songs

that we'd already recorded as like palace songs in the 1990s. And it's just like, I'm gonna make these Bonnie Prince Billy songs with this Nashville team of folks. And I witnessed the insanity of Nashville session musicians and their influence in the magic. Oh, so that's interesting because that's why people go there.

I mean, it had to be the same when Dylan went down there. I'm sure, I'm sure, yeah. I mean, if you listen... Yeah, he goes in with his interesting songs, right? At that time, his whatever... Was it Nashville Skyline or maybe... Was it Blonde on Blonde? Might have been first because I think that was a Nashville record. Mix a mix of some of his, some of like the Hawks, the band,

and the Nashville people. But just the idea that, you know,. Mix of some of his, some of like the Hawks, the band and the Nashville people. But just the idea that you're in a music city, like that has its own history and legacy. It's not like LA where they're doing everything. I mean, Nashville is doing Nashville. And there's these people like, yeah, I can get you exactly what you're picturing or hearing in your head.

Or I'm gonna actually get you something that's better than what you hear in your head. Yeah, yeah. Because you didn't even realize like what's possible. That we had these people on call. Yeah, that we had these people on call. Yeah. That's fucking amazing. Yeah.

But when you start, like let's go through a little history because like I know that, you know, you don't do much acting anymore. No. And at some point you just turned on it. Well, also music schedules and acting schedules don't do much acting anymore. No. And at some point, you just turned on it. Well, also, music schedules and acting schedules don't really line up. I don't know.

If someone casts you, I don't know how much notice they give you. Sure, sure. Yeah. It might be weeks. It might be. Yeah. And playing music, usually someone will say, hey, can you do three days on this movie in two weeks?

And I'll say no. No. Yeah. But in 14 months, I can. Right. And they're like, oh, we'll be done. Yeah, we'll be, it'll be out by then. Yeah, the movie will be, you can go see it,

and the part you would've played. But early on, where'd you grow up, in Kentucky? In Louisville, Kentucky. I'm gonna be there, do you live there? Yeah, are you doing a movie? No, I'm doing a comedy. Cool, where at? Good question, is that where the Baumhard Theater is?

Yes, yes. I'm at the Baumheart Theater is? Yes, yes. I'm at the Baumheart. Oh, that's a beautiful room. That's a pretty decent hip city. It's, I know, like an octopus asked about the ocean. There's not much I know how to say about Louisville. But what was your experience growing up there? I mean, what's your, you can do that.

No, it squeaks. Oh, yeah, there are, was your family in the arts? My family wasn't necessarily, my mom was a, you know, had a classic woman's transitional role of, you know, growing up, she had a really crazy childhood, but then ultimately she was brought up in a kind of a conservative family, and she married someone that she knew from Louisville,

and then she stopped working in order to raise kids. Yeah. But it turned out that she knew from Louisville and then she stopped working in order to raise kids. But it turned out that she wanted to, that she was an artist. Yeah. Oh really? She just did her art at home. Like what medium? She drew, the first thing she started doing when I was, I don't know, 10 or so was waking

up and drawing her dreams. Oh wow. With markers. Yeah. waking up and drawing her dreams with markers. And she created kind of a scary avatar for herself. So she would just draw one scene, usually, from each dream. And she was represented always by this certain avatar. And then other people might be. And those are very intense drawings.

Did she do any of your covers? Yes, she did, yeah. Because then she got into collage. So yeah, the I See a Darkness is a skull that she made. That's like a classic cover. And she did, there's one called Lie Down in the Light, where she did, I had, she was obsessed kind of with, there's a little bit, little image of Jacob wrestling the angel in a Gauguin painting.

Yeah, yeah. And I was excited about Gustave Courbet, kind of with, there's a little bit, little image of Jacob wrestling the angel in a Gauguin painting. Yeah, yeah. And I was excited about Gustav Courbet and he had this wrestler painting. And so I said, mom, would you do Jacob and the angel wrestling each other in sort of Gauguin crazy colors, but use the Courbet pairing, like the choreography. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's what the lie down and the lie is. So she did, yeah, throughout, and then I saw the Wondershow of the World. I love that one. That's the last thing, she ultimately got Alzheimer's and that's the last thing I was able to, that's the last piece of art she made, is the front cover of that record.

You know what's amazing about that record, is like I gotta give that a listen again, and the color of that record, you can find it immediately. You know, it stands out, that turquoise color. Well, that's amazing. So you had this relationship with your mom that was creative. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, it's interesting witnessing somebody who was a very committed artist with a practice who didn't, she never showed. She didn't, it wasn't about showing. It was just, she did it at home. About getting it out. Getting it out, but it was beautiful, very intense, and inspired, and she did it every day.

And so that was a weird thing. Like, I guess maybe my brain thought, is this something that we're supposed to hide? Is this supposed to be our private thing? But also it seems like one way to sort of combat either darkness or depression is to enter it into the world in a creative way. Yes, well, see, I guess that's, she maybe on some level had a little bit

of a feedback loop going because she wouldn't, you know, that's what I find is you put something into the music in order to share it. But she wasn't really, she was sharing it with those of us who lived in the same house as she did and certain friends of hers, but she wasn't actually getting out. So she was maybe identifying something that needed to come out, but it didn't go very far. You know, it didn't go very far.

Well, that's interesting because it's almost like, I need you to know this is happening. I think ideally maybe she would have wanted to put it out in the world, but she didn't have a careerist mind in terms of that stuff. But then you did, as covers. Yeah, and then with the covers. Was she thrilled? I think so. I mean, she would always agree when I would ask her to delete things.

Oh, so she did it specifically for the cover. I See a Darkness had been, she had made the skull and then superimposed like a degraded Xerox photograph of her as a baby. And so I said, you know, could I put this on a record cover without you as the baby over there? And she said, yeah. And then I would ask her, you know, sometimes I would,

yeah, I've used collages of hers. Like the sort of, the symbiosis of your vision for your music and then your mom's art, it just makes perfect sense. Yeah. And at the time, my father was an amateur photographer and almost every image, photographic image on most of the records were pictures that he took. Like any picture of me would have been a picture of my dad.

Close up of you that looks like a Nietzsche. That's Steve Gawlick, who's like for years, he's a British photographer. And for years I would say the only two people I really liked to take my picture, my dad and Steve Gawlick. Okay, yeah. And my dad's gone, so it's just Steve now.

No, but there's other people. Yeah, so when you start playing, is music the first thing? I mean, I know- Acting was the first thing. It was, yeah know, because- Acting was the first thing. It was. Yeah. Because I don't know where sales found you, but you must've been, what were you, 15 or something?

I think I was maybe 13 when he first, when they first contacted me, and then they lost the money from 8-1, and they made Brother From Another Planet, then they got the money. Oh, so it's like his second movie. And they called and said like, do you still have that script we sent you

a couple years ago? And how did you get on his radar? Because there's a theater in Louisville, it's in a interesting place right now since COVID. It hasn't, but there's a theater in Louisville called Actors Theater of Louisville, which was in the 70s. In the 70s, Louisville was kind of an important cultural center for the United States.

We had a really strong newspaper. We had a really strong orchestra from decades. And this theater, Actors Theater of Louisville, which had annually a new play festival that kind of the theatrical world would come to. Oh, really? From around the country? From around the country, sometimes even

around the world, to see a group of maybe 15, 16 plays. And so one year, I think I was 13, I was in a play, a really strange and interesting play called Food from Trash by a playwright named Gary Leon Hill. It was an original play? It was an original, because they would commission new plays. And a lot of the play, you know, there were a lot of plays, a lot of actors, a lot of the play, you know, a lot of, there were a lot of plays, a lot of actors,

a lot of plays that turned into bigger runs in, in, uh, on Broadway, maybe, or off Broadway, or turned into movies or, and then actors. I saw so many actors there who later went on to be, you know. Is that how you learned? Did you take lessons? I took lessons.

I started taking lessons when I was about eight because I just, I loved going to that theater. Yeah. And I loved watching movies. Theater. Yeah, yeah. The loved going to that theater. Yeah. And I loved watching movies. Theaters. The theater. Oh, so movies too. The theater was so good, though. Yeah, and movies.

And yeah, like my dad got one of the first VCRs from a local camera store. And they had 10 movies you could rent. We started renting. And then the library had them. Yeah. But that's what I, so I just assumed because of the fulfillment that I got

from witnessing theater and witnessing movies, cinema, I thought, this is what I'm gonna do with my life. You know, like these actors are helping me live the life, and that's what I wanna do. I wanna help people live the life that they have inside of them, right? That's what actors are supposed to be doing. Well, you know, I mean, like I've learned recently

that I had a big switch in terms of how I approach it or what my understanding of it. Because when you start to think about craft or this or that, that you just think in terms of like, how do I do this? And for some reason, it wasn't until I talked to Pacino, and this was like a couple months ago. Yeah, that'd be fun. It was great. And I read his book and like, you know, he's you know, he's a he's a kooky guy and a very shy guy And you know, you know life is you know gets away from him But but the idea of acting was really for him. It was an artistic pursuit of truth Uh-huh, and I don't know that I really thoroughly looked at it like that Oh that what you're honoring whatever you think you okay you can like, I know I can be in the moment and listen.

But the other side of it is, you honor the truth of that moment. And what you're going for is the truth of a story or the truth of a character. And it just blew my brain open. I don't even know why I didn't think that way. With ideally, right, the hope that that energy gets translated to the audience's experience

and then they are able to, they are witnessing the conveyance of truth, right? So then they can convey truth either just to themselves or to other people. Right, see things differently. See things differently, yeah. You know, like, but you know, ultimately, like you said earlier about the music,

you have no control over that part. All you can do is be, you know, engaged and authentic in your work and then you've done your job. I mean, you can't, there's nothing you're gonna do that's gonna make the audience, you can't think in terms of them all the time. Maybe.

You might, I mean, well, they're always a part of it. They're always a part of it. No, no, they're a part of the experience, but I mean, do you find yourself over the arc of 30 records or however many you've done, knowing you're playing to your audience always? But I mean, do you find yourself over the arc of 30 records or however many you've done, you know, playing, knowing you're playing to your audience always? Well, except, I mean, it's not a specific,

it's not a specific, it's an audience that is evolving always. And maybe, so kind of, also because maybe the opposite of my mom, I've always thought like, well, I'm going to make a song so that I can... Connect. Yeah. That's the like, well, I'm going to make a song so that I can connect. Connect, yeah. That's the reason, because I'm already connected to by watching great performers or listening to great records or going, you know.

And I guess what I'm saying is kind of false in the sense that like over time, you know, if you're authentically you, your audience kind of knows what to expect and knows you, and they want to engage in that. You don't have to're they want to engage in that you don't have to honor like You can't you don't have to think like I gotta do the record exactly like the last record Yeah, but after a certain point your voice is what brings them I'm still learning what brings them or doesn't bring them. But yeah, what brings what brings the audience? I mean, yeah, I think so

Yeah, I mean like now like I know that over time, somehow or another, my audience, they're grownups, they're sensitive, they're probably aggravated, they're politically like-minded, and they find some sort of relief or release or comfort in what I do. And that's within the last five years, because I'm an old man, and that's the other thing about doing art is that you don't really feel like you're old.

And at some point you're like, God, my audience is all over 40. And it's okay. Yeah. Because there's some ideas like, where are the kids? How come I'm not cool? Right. I mean- As an old man.

Well, you want also, I mean, I guess I do crave, I love the idea of maybe having the goal of having the bulk of the audience that comes to the show be people that you would like to spend time with on an individual level. Because you're going to be. But even if for some reason, yeah, if some reason you were invited to their house that you would look forward to going to their house. I don't look forward to going to anyone's house,

but I understand where you're from. Yeah, I mean, it's. I get, do you get a lot of that where you get emails through whatever the outlet is and they're like, oh, you're gonna be in my town. Do you wanna, you need a place to sleep? And I'm like, what? No.

Yeah. Well, you have to read between the lines a little bit. I remember there was, I got to meet, you know, one of my heroes, Jonathan Richmond, maybe a decade ago or something like that. How long ago? Maybe we met a decade ago. Was he making pizza ovens in Davis?

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah. But he came to a show in Grass Valley. Oh my God. And I knew, I mean, I had studied him since I was a child, you know. He was the guy. He was one of my big guys, you know, pictures on my wall and, and having different

conversations with him then about life and work and things like that. I, you know, I said, which I knew because of what you're talking about, I had these invitations and, but I said, I'm gonna tell you that when next time you come to Louisville, you should stay at our house because you would like to stay at our house, because you would like to stay at our house more than you would like to stay at anybody else's house

or in any hotels. Just trust me. And that's where he stays. He stayed at your house? Yeah. How is he? He's just... He's a hero.

I mean, he's... As a performing artist as well now, he just played here I think in December, so if you didn't see it, yeah. But he's... as a performing artist as well now, and he just played here I think in December, so if you didn't see it. Yeah, I didn't see it. But he's, I can't imagine, I can't think of a better and more fulfilling performance that I've seen in my life really than seeing him in the last two or three years.

Oh my God, I'm so mad that I don't go to more live shows. And to spend time with, he called maybe a month ago and said, I'm gonna, we're just driving through because we're playing, I don't know, Nashville or Lexington or something like that, or Cincinnati. I said, well, come stay, you know?

And he came and we were already with some neighbors having a fire in the backyard and Jonathan Richmond comes up and he's got his guitar and he sings a serenade to the moon before going to bed. How can you not love that? It's amazing. It's just- So earnest, right? And then first thing in the morning,

he comes over at 730 in the morning to the back door and knocks. And he's got a guitar. He said, you wanna spend some time? Yeah. And play? Play, chant. Sure.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And that for you, the arc of that, of having loved him as a kid, They chant. Sure. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And that for you, the arc of that, of having loved him as a kid and then to have that relationship with him is just beautiful. And there's something about him that is so specific and unique and honest and earnest. And so, like, there's a childlike engagement with the world

that like no one really has. No, yeah, nobody has. And he seems to hold onto it. And nobody has, especially because he get, then when you see him on stage, it's still, you know, it has, it's maturing now in a really complicated and beautiful way. Is it like a little- In a kind of spiritual way.

Is there a little flamenco involved too? There's definitely some flamenco in there. But what he's doing with his performance and changing it night for night and changing songs around and just, he's engaging in whatever, a 70-minute improvisational performance that he anchors with certain song structures. But those structures can change night to night.

And so you are witnessing... It feels like, you know, it feels like what we've understood to be, say, maybe a great 1965 Miles Davis kind of experience. Or almost like a raga. Like a raga, exactly, yes. That's more precise, actually. Yeah, like I was just listening to someone like Shankar the other day, Ravi, because I was turning someone on to Ravi Shankar. And it was the first record from 58 where he explains the music and the structure of

the music. And I hadn't listened to that in forever. And it really sets you up to be like, we're okay, here we go. So that's the kind of night you spend with John from Richmond. Yeah, he might even talk about, yeah, the ragas are essentially kind of scales, right? Is that right?

Well, they're scales, but there's also a very specific structure that you're going to build to this thing. Yeah, the scales are the scales, but- So that's what his sets are like. The destination is this thing, and then you come down a little bit, and then you end roughly on the same notes you started with.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you structure like that? Maybe, I'm still learning. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think so, yeah. So at the same time you're doing theater, you're listening to Jonathan Richmond and the Modern Lovers at first record? I'm listening, you know, I was, yeah, I think so. So at the same time you're doing theater, you're listening to Jonathan Richmond

and the Modern Lovers, that first record? I'm listening, you know, I was turned on by an article in Spin that probably was from 1984 and 1985. So that's already late. Oh, it's very late. I think the record that came out when I started listening to him was called It's Time for Jonathan Richmond and the Modern Lovers.

Yeah. Has Corner Store, Double Chocolate Molten. So this is after he's almost exercised some of that velvet underground from him. Fully, fully, fully. Which he did very early on, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Then when you're doing the acting, when do you start playing? So all of my, you know, my older brother was a musician, is a musician, he's a great musician, and he started getting in somehow to the Louisville punk art music scene. And bringing back records, you know, to the house and playing lots of really amazing records.

And then aligning himself with some pretty amazing creatives in Louisville. Well, that's interesting, because people like now they hear that, and you know, the way one thinks about punk, you gotta be specific at the time, because it really was an umbrella term for anything artistic. Yeah.

You know, Mike Watt kind of set me straight on that. That whatever punk has become, or what people think it is, is not what it really started out as. Yeah. So like what you're talking about is what, like the late 70s? Now this would have been 82, 83. So you've got a lot of people, some people doing performance art, some people are doing

body art, some people are doing soundscapes, other people are doing audio visual things, that kind of stuff. That kind of stuff. As well as just, yeah, the spectrum of music is broad. Even in a given all ages show on a Sunday afternoon, you might see things that are very abstract, along with things that are kind of hardcore. Right.

Isn't that amazing that there was a time, cause I'm a little older than you, but there was a time when we were kids where you could go get your mind blown by something totally new. Yes. And something that you would never see even again. Exactly. Yeah. And to see it in person and made by people that might call you by your first name. Right. Yes.

People who just blew your mind. Yeah. They're like, hey, Will, how are you doing? Thank God. What? You're on the plane with the gods already. Well, I remember like,, because, you know, I worked at a restaurant across from the university, so I was tapped into all that age group,

and this would have been in the early 80s, right? And this guy that worked at the record store next door, he played in a band that played two times a year, called Jungle Red, and it was just him and this other guy. And they're on stage, you know, in operating scrubs. And he's got a, you know, he wanted to borrow this Ibanez West Paul copy I had. And I said, sure, if you need a guitar, but then he ended up just taping a doll's arm to it and, you know, hitting it occasionally.

And in the middle of the show, he just took his collection of original McCoy fiesta ware and started smashing it with a hammer on the mics. And I just remember like half the audience was like gay men and they were like, oh my they were just, they really hurt him. The Fiesta Wear part, but I'm like, what the fuck is this? Right, right, yeah. But it blew my mind. It was a causing pain, yeah. It introduces you to possibilities.

Yes, precisely. Yeah, it's just, it's, yeah. It introduces you to possibilities. Yes, precisely. Yeah, it's just, it introduces you, well, it kind of sets you up for an expectation that boundaries, you know, the pushing and, you know, destruction of boundaries is a norm. And then you realize, oh, this is not a norm at all. Almost nowhere is this a norm, but it became part of your formation. That's right. So you're a little lost also then. You know, you can...

Lost, but also you know you, you, if, if that's what you gravitate towards, you know that the challenge is upon you. You know the challenge is always available to you as well, yeah. Yeah. And, but also you're being pummeled by mainstream music, which you like, but you do realize like, well, there's something else out there. I mean, I got turned on to like Fred Frith and the residents and I'm like, what the fuck?

No one's playing this. What is this? Oh, Reinhard, I think there was certain, because we weren't, we have University of Louisville, but for some reason, college culture wasn't a part of Louisville culture in that way. The record stores and things like that were nowhere near the university.

The university was in a part of town and kind of still is that people don't go to unless they're part of the university. So it's a campus? It's not even a campus. It's just in southern downtown Louisville. It's kind of an urban area. So we didn't have this college culture,

which can be so valuable to certain communities. So those of us who were hungry for things tended more towards the Moor Underground, because the residents had, for example, probably better record distribution than some of the things that we would end up listening to because, I don't know, because we managed it ourselves, I guess, because it was all mail order catalogs and things like that.

So when you start playing, what are you playing? Well, everybody I'm spending time with is music, except for when I'm doing my theater classes and my theater performances. So I'm spending time with all these music people. Your brother's friends. My brother's friends. Eventually, he sort of moves away from that scene

and I get into it and I'm fully in it. And so I'm spending all my time going to shows or in my friend's basement practice spaces, watching them practice. And it never occurred, and taking pictures. Because my dad taught me to take pictures. Not playing anything. I couldn't play anything.

Didn't think I had any, I didn't have any thought about playing anything. Oh wow, no inclination. No. Huh. And then when I, I remember when I was going to do Mate One, three of my best friends said, how about we start a band?

Because we were spending all of our time together. Yeah. And listening to music together. And I said, okay. And what do you want me to do? And they said, you could play guitar. Okay. So I think I borrowed a guitar and took it with me

maybe to the shoot in West Virginia for a couple months. But, and they sent, they're giving me demos and I don't, I don't know what, you know. And finally, after a few months, they say, we're gonna move on with this concept with somebody else because you're not doing anything. I'm like, yeah, I don't know what to, I think that's a good idea.

Yeah. Yeah. But did you learn how to play? Well, so then those were the, those guys then were Slint, the group Slint. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. No, so then I- That's a heavy band.

I went, you know, I moved out here for a little bit to try, you know, I got an agent out here. Oh, because of May One. Yeah, exactly. When I graduated high school. That was a crazy role, dude. It was a crazy role. I mean, what, The Child Preacher? Yeah.

It was like it was jarring. Like, I remember seeing that movie, and I kind of remember what it was about, but I remember you. Yeah. I just watched it again, because there's a new, like, 4K print. I watched it for the first time since the 80s. And you're like what, 17?

16, yeah. It's unbelievable. It's a good movie. Yeah. And sales was great. Sales was so great. Yeah. I mean, I really got set up in my teens to think that the world was this amazing,

wonderful, generous, collaborative, cooperative, inspiring place. And when I really left home, I realized that's not the case because that's how the sales production was. And that's how our community, our music community in Louisville was and theater community. And I thought, and you go out in the world, that's not how our community, our music community in Louisville was, and theater community, and I thought, you go out in the world, that's not how the world is. So you got to LA and you were just hitting the head?

Yeah, yeah. And then I said, maybe I'll try in New York, and then realized that none of that was for, that acting wasn't, it would be impossible for me to do what I thought I was, you know, wanted to do in that. And then someone had given me a guitar it would be impossible for me to do what I thought I was, you know, wanted to do in that. And then someone had given me a guitar

when I was about 19. And here and there people would, you know, I would just write little songs for no, you know, like my mom. Just writing songs. Why? I wasn't gonna, yeah, exactly. And then,

Just writing songs, why? Clinking around on the guitar. And then I sort of started to apply discipline to it, even though again, I had no, what was I going for? I was listening to the weirdest music at that point, lots of just records checked out of the library. Like what? Because the covers looked interesting. I mean, just, I don't know, records from other countries

or going to church on Sundays to like gospel churches. So I didn't know what one did with music once you recorded it, for example. Like I lived for a summer with my friend Todd Brashear, who was in this audio program at University of Indiana, Indiana University. In Bloomington? In Bloomington.

And so we had access to recording equipment, recorded some of these songs and I thought, well, all I know from my growing up is that you make a seven inch once you've recorded songs. Yeah. Then I'm like, I'm going to send this. Your single? Yeah, send these demos out to record labels to see if they

would be interested in releasing a seven inch record. So it's just you and your buddy? Yeah, me and Todd, yeah. And then other people, we roped other people in to play on the sessions of whatever these things were. And that became a record? And then, yeah, but I sent it to, you know, I sent it to Interscope Records

because I didn't know anything about anything. You know, I wrote them a letter saying, would you put a seven inch out of this music? Yeah. And, but then also to Drag City because I had seen a Silver Jews seven inch that, uh, a girl named Tanya Small had given me cause she plays on the first Silver Jews EP. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I was like, this looks great.

This sounds great. You know, maybe these people would be interested. And they said, we like these songs. Yeah. Yeah. And you said, we like these songs. Yeah. Yeah. And you've been with him ever since. Pretty much, you know, hiccups here and there, but yeah. That's crazy.

Yeah. But Berman moved you? Of course, I mean, yeah. Did you ever spend any time with him? Dude, I had one of the weirdest nights in my life in Nashville. With him? Yeah.

Yeah. Because I had about 50 of the weirdest nights in my life with him, just because that's what it is. I came to him later and I read the poems and I listened to the records and I found him brilliant and interesting. And I wanted to do a conversation with him. And we had reached out a couple times.

And then he comes to my show in Nashville with his then girlfriend or wife. Wife, Cassie probably. Yeah, Cassie. And then afterwards we go to this this restaurant, and I swear to God, we're the only people in it. And it's like 1130 at night, and he fucking tells me his life story. We were there for like two hours about this almost... It was heartbreaking because it was all about this almost... What he saw is a mythic battle with his father. Yeah, my gosh. Yeah, and and how that you know crippled him and

You he didn't want to talk on the mics. Yeah, but it was the story was like Mind-blowing and tragic. Yeah that he was like this this guy who can couldn't get out from under it and Obviously, you know it ended very badly. Yeah, and. And we had emailed right before he passed. And I had no idea. And then I saw Sweeney in New York, and it was sad because it didn't seem to surprise anybody that he took his own life. That he struggled like that. No, yeah, oh my gosh.

The struggle was on his, was evident. Yeah, the struggle was evident. And that Purple Mountains record is crazy. It's too much for me. Right? Yeah. I know that it's a great record, but I think I've listened to it two times and I just say, well, I know that it's there.

Yeah, because it's too sad. It's too sad. Yeah. But, okay, so when you start with Drag City, I mean, obviously we're not gonna get through every record, but- Oh, and the new record is on no quarter. Oh, it is?

It's one of the diversion hiccups. But you're still okay with Drag City? I think so, yes, yes. I got mad at them because they wouldn't put out my comedy record. Yeah, they can have interesting stances on it. Yeah, they said they put me out on their other label, whatever that one is. Uh-huh.

Could be C-Note maybe? I don't know. And I was like, no, I want to be... Yeah. But look, I listen to their artists. So that's where you start the career. You wanted to do a seven inch and the music is just stuff you're putting together without any real guidance.

Yeah. And then so the seven inch and then a few months later, Dan from Drag City says, well, when's the full length? And I'm thinking, full length, right? You want full, full, full, uh, sure, I'll get to it right now. Yeah. And you did it.

Did it, yeah. And you released that under Palace? Palace Brothers, yeah. And you did what, three records, Palace Brothers? It was, the first record was, see, at the time I was still coming from this film world. And, you know, that's what I understood about, like, if you're gonna be in a play,

you get a group of people together, prepare for it, make it, do it, it's this entity, and then it's over. You move on. And so I was thinking like, well that's, I wanna try to make records that way. So you put people together, you make this thing, and then you move on and try to make something else. How do you connect them so that maybe

an audience could follow it? Well, that's why I thought, well, I'll keep this palace word, but let people understand that we're moving on into different territory with each record. Right. So I didn't even know. Like the first record was a palace. I just thought I don't want to have a band, but I don't want it to be a solo artist thing

because it should be about the record and about the song. So it was a collaborative effort with some people that you gelled with and when it was done, it was done. Yeah. And then like eventually you decided, you know, still not to really record under your own name because you wanted to have that anonymity? Well, also eventually, it's not necessarily even anonymity

as much as it is like when you see a record and it's credited to somebody, are you expected, you know, a Neil Young record? Does that mean Neil Young did everything? No. No. So I think to just be a little more transparent about that, so I'll say Bonnie Prince Billie,

because that's just an entity through which all these thing forces can be brought together to make something. Whatever it's gonna be. And then the audience will, because that's just an entity through which all these thing forces can be brought together to make something. And then the audience will, because that's our tendency, to look at it as an individual, but I can look at it too and say, yeah, that's Bonnie Prince Billy, whatever. Whatever you need to say, but it isn't, there's not a single artist on this record. There are however many artists on this record.

And you work with many. So many. Yeah, almost like, it's an interesting thing because there's not a lot of people that do that. I mean, Dylan does that. And that everything is a collaborative effort with new voices and new artists. Yeah.

And that was sort of the goal. Yeah. You honor that goal. I mean, you get yourself in a position where you get to spend time, creative time time with people that you really, you know, like I wanna, it's a way of getting intimate with people, you know, right? Yeah, for sure, yeah. Yeah, and have kind of an urgent community, urgent collaboration, yeah.

And also learning. Learning, absolutely. And evolving all different things. You get something new out of yourself when you're in relation with other people. Every time. Every time. Yeah. But ultimately, what's interesting is that because a lot of it is your writing,

there is a through line to your point of view and your vision. Yeah. And wherever that comes from, well, that's your business, but you do honor a sort of taking it up to the edge of sort of almost heartbreaking poetry a lot of times, but then you get goofy. And propriety.

Yeah. Oh, in terms of, yeah. But like, you will get goofy. Yeah. But the idea was always to create structures for the purpose of gathering people around, rather than the other way around. Like, it wasn't gathering of people

to put the songs forward, it was getting the putting, you have to write songs so that you have something to share with people that you can then make a record out of or make shows out of. And the first record that got significant critical attention was I See a Darkness? I don't even know what that means. Well, I mean- I mean, I really don't. I guess maybe not critical attention was I See a Darkness? I don't even know what that means. Well, I mean, I really don't.

I guess maybe not critical attention, but it was out there enough to where, you know, people cover your songs. Yeah. So within the community, and I guess that's another benefit of working with all different artists is that people were like, do you know this guy?

Or you should work with this guy and have you heard this song by this guy? Right. And then other people cover the stuff to me outside of critical recognition if somebody plays your fucking song. That's a big deal. Big deal, yeah. Like you're like, oh my God.

And then you get to hear that interpretation. I mean, not everybody gets Johnny Cash to cover a song. I don't even- It's the truth. I don't even know how that happened. Do you? I know vaguely how it happened. Was it Rick? Yes, I think it was Rick. I think he was talking to the music journalist

slash sex writer, Neil Strauss. Sure, I know him, yeah. And I think Neil Strauss... Said, this is the song. Yeah, played him. I think he played him a few records, song. Yeah, played him, played him. I think he played him a few records, a few records that I'd been involved with.

And yeah, and then I think Sweeney ran into Rubin on the street. Well, they have Rubin. I think Neil Strauss had told Sweeney that he'd been with Rick Rubin and Rick Rubin was listening to all these records. Super Wolf. Something like that, yeah.

Or before Super Wolf, because that's Super Wolf. Yeah, right, but that's what got Sweeney into the Rubin circle, right? Or Superwolf. Sweeney got into the, yeah. I mean, essentially, yeah, even because Sweeney and I were playing together

when the I See a Darkness cover was going down. So I think Sweeney at one point saw Rubin and said, "'Hey, I heard you've been listening to these records. "'We're playing a show at the Bowery Ballroom in two weeks, you wanna come. And then, and I think at that point, you know, they then recognized each other and that was the beginning of their relationship, yeah.

But it's so wild that like, because, you know, whatever you started as, which was, I guess, kind of qualified as lo-fi to a degree, but then, like, because of your need to collaborate, you know, that Sweeney record that you, who you did, I don't know how much you were working before Super Wolf with him, it's this whole other thing. But it's not that different than what you always do, but there was something infused in that,

primarily because of whatever you two were doing. Yeah, I mean, I think we'd probably played together for four or five years, something like that, primarily because of whatever you two were doing. Yeah, I mean, we'd been, I think we'd probably played together for four or five years, something like that. And then, and in the middle of that four or five years, though, was the kind of Zwan debacle. What happened? Well, that was when the band Zwan formed and ultimately dissolved,

you know, self imploded. That was the Billy Corgan. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Sweeney was in that. Oh, he was, I didn't realize that. And so he was sort of lost to us for a couple years. Probably lost to everybody. Yeah, exactly.

And then when that was over, you know, I had missed playing with him and just said, how about if we try to make some songs up together? When you do that experience, I don't know how most of your records go, but obviously the Nashville experience is very different. But when you settle in with a group of people, is it just like all day,

every day for weeks, days to come upon something? No. One of the things that thrilled me so much about the Nashville experience and the speed of it is that I've always, I've understood that many of the great records that are the great records are records that were oftentimes recorded in one, two days or five days or something like that.

And that's also a necessity. If you're going to a recording studio in your 20s and you're on an independent label playing relatively underground music, you have budget and time constrictions. And so going into the studio, no one was throwing us, you know, 10, 20, 30 grand. It's just you go in and you say, we've got this amount of time. We have to make a record.

Yeah. And I like the Nashville people because there everyone's prepared to do that. it's just you go in and you say, we've got this amount of time, we have to make a record. And I like the Nashville people because everyone's prepared to do that. And this was like sort of, we were always just forcing everybody to work harder than they're comfortable working. So even with Super Wolf, we wrote for a period of time, long distance mostly,

and would get together every once in a while and try to work out the songs. But then when we went into the recording studio, which was my brother's studio in Shelbyville, Kentucky, we just, I don't know, five days or something like that. He still got the studio? He doesn't, no. Yeah, he moved to, he decided he wanted to become a luthier

and he moved out to Mesa, Arizona, and then was on the West Coast for a while, now he's in North Carolina. And when in this sort of arc of the music career do you start working with Kelly Reichardt? I think so, again, Alan Licht, who gave me that Bruce Springsteen, Dream Baby Dream bootleg song,

and is one of my favorite musical artists as well. He was working, I think, at Keno, and Kelly was working at Keno, I think, and they were friends, and she was working on, she had made a movie called Rivers of Grass in her native Florida. Had a little bit of recognition, but not much. And she was in New York.

And then she was in New York. And she was working on, she wanted to remake the movie owed to Billy Joe, which had been a Robbie Benson-made maybe even TV movie, based on the song. And so she wanted to remake it on Super 16, maybe? Might have been Super 8, and asked Alan, because we were friends, if he thought

I would be interested in making some music for her. And so I was. Sure. Were you gonna do a cover of that song? No, just the score. I was like, score music for it. So she sent me an edit with temp music. Was that ever released?

I have a VHS copy of it. I mean, it's pretty, it was very low-budge. And everything about it is super raw. So it was the grass one, the rivers of grass. Yeah, yeah. And so then we just, we had a communication going on from that point on, yeah. Cause that role in Old Joy.

Old Joy, yeah. It was great. Yeah, it was a great experience. Like, your character was a slightly disturbing character. Yes. But the weird thing is, is that if you run in the circles that we run in at that time, you know that guy. Yeah.

I mean, in their own ways, both characters were kind of disturbing. The one with at the fire, what was the other guy? There's the two guys, the friends, you know? He's great, that guy. Yeah, Daniel London, he's great. But originally she had asked me to play that part, and I was deeply... Both parts are so intimidating because they're...

One of them is somebody who has kind of yielded to Normie world. And the other one completely hasn't. And neither one is in a place where nobody aspires to be where either of these people are. So if you're thinking like, as an actor, oh, I'm gonna enter in and find the sympathetic aspects of this character and think like,

but what if I become either one of these? I don't wanna become either of these people, you know? And so she couldn't find somebody for the part Kurt that I ended up playing and ultimately she's like, would you just do it? Because I can get, I think I can get Daniel London and he's gonna be great as Mark. Well, the part of Kurt is like, would you just do it? Because I can get, I think I can get Daniel London and he's going to be great as Mark. Well, the part of Kurt is like, you know,

that guy who's just a little too old to be in that mindset. Yeah. It's a tragic but very specific character. And, you know, if you are in art worlds or around those people, everyone knows that, one of those guys. Yeah.

And it just doesn't end well for them. No. And, you know, end well for them. No. And you know, I, you know, whatever age I was was something, I don't know, 33, 34. Still thinking like, could I be this guy? You know, I mean, you know, anything, I don't know what is happening in this world. I don't know what I do in my, you know,

I'm, you know, I don't have a, you know, a retirement plan or anything like that. Is this potential, you know, I, it's, it's unrealistic, but I was, you know, I was paranoid that. Oh yeah. You might be, you could, yeah. Not only do I know this guy, but I could be becoming this guy.

Yeah, yeah. So when does that change? When do you realize that you're not that guy? What record? Yeah. I think probably around, probably after, maybe it was cathartic, you know? And I think when Old Joy came out, I think it was around the same time that, yeah, I made this record, The Letting Go, in Iceland with Valgier Sigurdsson,

who I'd met because I'd opened for Bjork when he was, like, doing a lot of production and arrangement things with her. And worked with this woman, Dawn McCarthy, who's got a group called Fawn Fables that are based in, like, Kotadi, California now. And first time I worked with Emmett Kelly, and Jim White was on

that record, my brother, and yeah, we just, we took this thing. There's a guy named David Tibet who has a musical project called Current 93. And at the time he was kind of collecting, he was in this period in the early 2000s of collecting the wildest ensembles that at one point Sweeney was a part of, but, and Baby D, and so it was just like, all of a sudden I knew every day that I wasn't desperately trying to figure out how to find a place for my songs. Brain, no my brain, my consciousness to grow.

Instead, thanks to people like David Tabatt or being able to make, or Kelly Reichardt, or getting to go to Iceland and make this letting go record that every day I could wake up and get in right away, just jump in all the way. And then it was like, well, if I can hold on to this for the rest of my life. So you learned to sort of discipline for yourself.

Exactly. And it was because of other artists. Because of other artists, yeah. It's great. I mean, you can't go to college, I mean, maybe Black Mountain College in the mid-century of the 20th century, but where can you go and really learn to do this work, right?

Yeah. It's only by somehow kind of getting past your insecurities and entering that moment where you're like, I gotta fucking show up for this and be who I am. I mean, that's the trickiest part. And surround yourself with people who are further along in figuring things out or at least appear that way. And not that everyone, or they figured something out

so that you can think, okay, well, they're doing it, you know, this is what Jim White puts in his suitcase. Right, yeah, which album was that? The one that- The Letting Go. Oh my God. So in terms of, because I think it's important, because I can't speak to it, but maybe you can if you are willing.

Because you have such a significant catalog, and I imagine a lot of people listening to this may not know much of it, outside of getting the new record and maybe that, I see a darkness record, in between, what would you think are the significant records for you to introduce people? I like the blueberry song, but I don't think people should start that.

That was fun. That was so much fun. Oh my gosh. Oh my God. I was like, look at him lighting up. He's lightening up. Yeah. Look at him, thinking about blueberries.

Yeah. But what do you think? Well, also thank you so much for, I'm really grateful to be here with you. Thank you so much for... I'm really grateful to be here with you. Thank you so much. Yeah. The...

Well, so between I See a Darkness and the new record kind of... It's like 30 records. I, you know... Super... Well, the Greatest Palace music is a big deal. It was a really big deal to me, and I know it's effective. You know, I hear the kind of feedback I hear from people. I think, oh, that record works.

The first record? The first one I did in Nashville with the full... Oh yeah, yeah, right, right, right. So that's called Bonnie Prince Billy Sings Greatest Palace Music. So it's all these insane pros, one of whom is actually on the new record as well, a guy named Stuart Duncan, who's a fiddle player, mandolin player, just brilliant musician. Yeah. who's a fiddle player, mandolin player, just brilliant musician. And... And then, and, and, and, yeah, that was me just saying, like, I'm gonna own this Bonnie Prince Billy life,

you know, and, and bring it to Nashville, but then also I took the tapes around the United States to have different friends, family, colleagues that I'd worked with over the years at that point and asked them to overdub on it so that it was this, you know, new... A fully realized thing. Yeah, a quilt of a quilt or something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's good. And then the, yeah, the Super Wolf record. Great. He just did another Super Wolf record. And then we did another one, which is, I have full respect for that first one that we did. I think it's a one of a kind and I know that people get something out of it. But there's something that happened for me musically

just since COVID, kind of, where... I think that's Super Wolves' record, the second one. And that's post-Moktar, too, right? Well, Moktar's on it. They're on it. Yeah. On three or on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're on it, yeah. On three or four songs. And that, yeah, I think that's one of the, I mean, you know, I think it's a really good record.

Oh, good, good. Yeah. I'm glad you can say that. I am too. You know, when we had finished it, I remember like listening to The Master at home and just, because it was, I think that we mixed, we were tracked in February of 2020,

November of 19 and then February of 20. So we mixed in lockdown. So we were listening to The Master in lockdown and I remember just, yeah, just laying, sort of laughing helplessly on the floor of my kitchen, listening to this record because I'm thinking, this is a really good record that we've made. Like this is a record that is good in ways

that I have never been able to put into a record before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I feel like, and then there was this series of singles with Bill Callahan where we did these 19 singles also during lockdown, each with a different guest artist, all covers. Yeah, yeah. He's a genius, right? Indeed, yeah. And yeah, and there's...

The urgency of lockdown is not nothing. Oh, no. I mean, I'm so grateful to lockdown for many things. Yeah. to lockdown for many things. I'm kind of globally and societally grateful that it seemed to put many, if not all, Americans closer to an understanding of the urgency of our existence, right? And making, I mean, more so than in 2019.

Sure, and now there's this fascistic pushback, which oddly I think the new record speaks to in its way. I believe it does. And as we were coming up with songs for it, I was also getting giddy thinking, because some of the songs that most directly and indirectly addressed the new reality. The new order.

We were aware that it was encroaching, and we're sitting around making up these, I'm making up these songs with these older, amazing songwriters, and thinking, and I'm getting giddy because of the subtext of some of the songs, I'm like, this is cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely felt it, and I definitely heard it.

Yeah. Well, it was great talking to you, man. Good talking to you. I think we did all right. We did all right. We did good. Yeah. There you go.

Great talk. Enjoyed it. Enjoyed it. The new Bonnie Prince Billy album, The Purple Bird is out now. Hang out for a minute, folks. Looking for a community that has it all? Welcome to Crossings, the urban hub of West Lethbridge. At Crossings, you'll find a vibrant village designed for living, working, and connecting.

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