WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1624 - W. Kamau Bell

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

W. Kamau Bell and Marc are similar comedians in that neither of them will ignore the current political environment in their acts. Kamau and Marc talk about how that’s shaping up today versus how it was during the first Trump administration and what they each feel about the balance between civic responsibility and entertainment. They also talk about Kamau’s decision to play the Kennedy Center despite the Trump takeover, his five year break from comedy, and what happened after he released his documentary about Bill Cosby. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. I travel a lot, especially lately during this tour. I mean, I've been to Boulder, Colorado, Fort Collins, Colorado, Missouri, Kansas City, heading out more in the days to come. And if you've got any travel coming

up, an Airbnb co-host can take care of everything. So you can host your place on Airbnb while you're away. They'll create the listing for you, manage your reservations and stay in touch with your guests. So your co-host does all the work and you still make some cash while you're away. Find a cohost at airbmb.ca slash host. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. All right, let's do this. All right, let's do this.

How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast WTF. Welcome to it. We're still going. We're still going.

We're still going. We're still going. We're still going. We're still going. We're still going. We're still going. We're still going. We're still going. Let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck? Nick's. I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast WTF welcome to it. We're still going we're still happening so many years so many episodes into this thing I'm in a hotel room. I'm in a weird old kind of it's not musty, but I would say it's Complicated it's a strangely complicated hotel here in San Antonio, Texas, right on the River Walk. I can open up my window, step out onto a balcony, and see just

parades of tourists just trudging along down the River Walk. And it's weird to be back in San Antonio. I don't feel like I've been here for a while, and I've got some memory. It's an odd thing when you've been doing comedy as long as I have that, uh, every town you go to that you've been to more than once in your life, doing comedy over the arc of your comedy career is somewhat of a trauma trigger because at different points in your life, you have a different set of fears and panic and, uh, professionalism. And there's definitely some major trauma triggers

here in San Antonio, Texas for me. There's a couple of good times. I think if you go back in the catalog, I don't remember which episode it was. It might be the Lucas Melandes episode. We were out in the world wandering around San Antonio. I think we went to the Alamo, and then we ended up at some Con Junto music festival.

That was one of the the better times. But really early on, man, they used to have this club here called the River Center Comedy Club. And I remember when it opened, I can't even put a year on it. Must be mid 90s. I don't know. But when they opened it, everything was high end, man. It was like this is a hot new club, and we got you a hot new modern condo to stay in,

and it was just the best. And then years later, I went back, and no one was coming to the club anymore, and the condo was garbage. It wasn't even the same condo. Comedy condos are, someone should do a documentary about that experience, because once a condo has been around for a while and enough Monsters and comics and weirdos have come through over the years, you know

You might not want to sit on that leather couch Certainly don't want to open anything in the refrigerator and what the fuck when was the last time those blankets were cleaned? Yeah, and it's all your dirty peers that are coming into that joint. So that makes it even more disturbing. But, but I remember one time doing the River Center Comedy Club here in San Antonio and the place was huge. It was like the size of a, of like a airplane hanger in my memory. And I drew like 15 people spread out in a room that's seated like 400 and you don't forget that kind of stuff. I don't know where you catalog it or where you repress it to but not a great feeling just waiting and realizing well this is it this is gonna be the number of people that I'm going to perform for

tonight in this large place and there's no way it's not gonna be fucking pathetic. Yeah and I remember it was in the mall it was in the River river center mall. And one time I saw that kid. Who was it? It was the weirdest thing. Cause I've never met the guy. And I, you know, I've always wanted to ask him. You know, it was the guy from, from ET, Henry Thomas. It was here in San Antonio. It was at the mall. It must've been in the mid-90s or mid to late 90s. And he was just like crouched on the side in the mall, watching people, observing.

I don't know. I'd really like to get it verified because maybe I was just hallucinating. Because I'm the guy who thought he saw General Flynn in Glendale on my hike. So I wouldn't trust my eyes on this one, but I do think it's possible that the guy from ET was at the River Center Mall at some point in his life.

Perhaps maybe it was just a character he played in ET and that's where he went up and came back down and ended up there. I don't know, I don't know. Look, today on the show I talked to W. Kamau Bell. He's been on the show quite a few times. He was on pretty regularly, right from the start. The first time he was on was episode 46.

And he was also interviewed for the documentary about me, Are We Good? And I'm doing a live conversation with him at South by Southwest this week. He's also out on tour now and he's a smart guy and I thought we'd catch up. And also, also, tour dates. Durham, North Carolina. I'll be at the Carolina Theatre of Durham on Friday, March 21st. Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm at the Knight Theatre on Saturday, March 22nd, and I'll be in Charleston, South Carolina at the Charleston Music Hall on Sunday, March 23rd.

Then Skokie, Illinois. I'm coming to the North Shore Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, March 28th. And Juliet, Illinois. I'm at the Rialto Square Theater on Saturday, March 29th. Then I'm coming to Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York City for my special taping. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all of my dates and links to tickets.

Do it there, don't go to scalper sites. Again, do not search Mark Maron tour tickets, your city, because you will be taken to a number of scalper sites. Go to the links at WTFpod.com slash tour, or go to the venues links. So you don't get ripped off or wonder why I'm charging so much money for tickets because I don't really I still think I'm on the lower end of that spectrum of ticket price this podcast is

brought to you by Squarespace and Squarespace has been through a lot with us they've sponsored us for more than a decade. Then we redesigned WTFpod.com with Squarespace and we launched a special site with them when I had President Obama in the garage. Now it's your turn to get started on your Squarespace journey and make the best website possible using everything Squarespace has to offer. The features you need to create your site are all in one place with Squarespace. Showcase everything about you and your personal brand with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional invoices

and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Squarespace also makes it easy to include video content on your website. Check out squarespace.com slash WTF for a free trial and when you're all set to put your new site out in the world use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's

squarespace.com slash WTF offer code WTF. I will tell you right now and I mean it Houston is my favorite city in Texas. I can't exactly explain why, but there's something about the vibe in Houston that I like, the way the city is laid out in the surrounding areas of downtown. But also, at some point in time, someone with a lot of money put a lot of it into art,

and into making great museums, into a lot of public art. And it was just, every time I go there, I'm like, this is like a well-rounded city. It's huge. I think it's one of the most diverse cities, certainly in Texas, but maybe in the country. You can get all kinds of great food there, Indian food, Asian food, Middle Eastern food.

It's just a very densely populated and very diverse city. But the art, the art always gets me man. And I, and I always go back when I'm there to the Rothko chapel, which is a very special place. It was something that Mark Rothko did. I don't know. I could have, I wish I had the brochure in front of me or the information, but he was contracted or was in alignment with this non-denominational group who built this chapel that he had done. There's probably about ten huge Rothko paintings in there, huge panels that are the

basically surrounding you in this small chapel that is almost a place for meditation and I'd read about it years ago and I know that there was a problem with it earlier on where because of the quality of paints he used, they were starting to fade. But all the paintings have been restored. And the last time I was there, it was just mind-blowing for me because I'm a huge Rothko guy. Nobody got right up against the big empty like Rothko and his abstractions for me are the real portal into true abstraction, into true sort of like a kind of mind-altering experience with pure painting. And the first time I went to the Rothko Chapel, I was kind of stunned and a bit overwhelmed. And this time I went back,

and it was really a different experience. I took Blair there, she had not been there. And we sat with the paintings for quite a while, probably 20 minutes, half hour. And you could just spend the whole day in there really, because as you sit there, something seems to happen with your brain and the paintings. At first you go in and they're not quite defined in any way because they all,

they all are very dark and some of them almost appear to be one color, but there is some geometric elements in a couple of the panels, but you have to sit there for a while until they kind of come into focus and start doing their magic of transporting you to a place just outside of regular consciousness and maybe pretty far outside regular consciousness or normal consciousness or your consciousness, depending on what you let your brain do with them.

But there was something about this time that I had not done last time is that you know I know Rothko was a depressive. I know he's a heavy cat. You got to be pretty heavy to have the confidence and skill set to do the type of painting he did. But I started to realize this time that I visited the chapel that these were very dark and the place it takes you is, is not, it's a spiritual space. And I wouldn't say that you're kind of looking into the abyss, but it's close. There is something about the tone of the work where it does take you out of yourself and into a kind of transcendent zone.

But I started to realize, I don't know if this is spiritual light. I don't know if we're heading into the light. I think he's creating a space at the edge of darkness. And it's not a uplifting space. It is maybe a meditative space. But then I realized like he committed suicide and I was curious this time,

but these were some of the last paintings he did before he just crumbled. And I'm like, I don't know if this is, if you look at it that way, if you frame it contextually, historically in relation to Mark Rothko, if this is really an uplifting experience. I think these panels are not necessarily a cry for help,

but certainly a hello to the darkness. So my experience there, though spiritual, was I wouldn't say uplifting, if you know what I'm saying. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp, folks. Good transition. We're at the edge of the abyss. Spiritually at the edge of the abyss, this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What stock numbers, folks?

Traditional in-person therapy can cost anywhere from $100 to $250 per session, which adds up fast. And a lot of times, that can be enough to stand in the way of people getting the help they need through therapy. With BetterHelp, you can save on average up to 50% per session. You pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, and it's all done online. You get quality care at a price that makes sense and on a platform where you can do it from anywhere.

I think of therapy as something necessary for my life, not a thing I need in an emergency, just something that helps me stay grounded. And BetterHelp can become a regular option for you, helping you keep your mental health in good shape. With more than 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, plus switch therapists at any time. Your wellbeing is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com slash WTF to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash WTF. Also in Houston, I reached out to Mo Amher.

Mo Amher, who I had on recently, he's got the show Mo, Palestinian American comic, lives in Houston. And what a great guy. Mo Amher, there's something about people that were brought up in a close-knit community, close to their family, where they just have a certain, you know, they put a premium on hospitality and also just being decent people. I mean, Mo showed up at my house with a bottle of Palestinian olive oil that is really the best olive oil I've ever had in my life. He brought a gift which is so nice and I've noticed this from certain ethnic

groups that people are part of who have come on my show. Koreans, Egyptians, they bring gifts and it's something that I'm not good at and it's something you should do. Like if you show up at someone's house, you know, if you're invited somewhere, you should bring a little something. I guess it's common knowledge. I don't always register it and I always, you know, a lot of times I make excuses. Like for instance, I texted Mo in Houston and he's like, he had things to do, man. I mean, him and his wife are going to go out and celebrate her birthday that night and I was only in town for one day and he was and I just I Just texted him to ask him for some food racks, you know an Indian restaurant Maybe a Middle Eastern restaurant and Moe just texted back like come over come over. We'll make some falafel

You'll hang out. You'll meet you can meet my wife and my son and I'm like, yeah, man. I'm gonna do that I'm coming over and I and my son. And I'm like, yeah, man, I'm gonna do that. I'm coming over. And I went over there and I brought nothing because I didn't have any time. But I feel bad about it now because his wife made these amazing falafels from Moe's mom's recipe or his grandmother's recipe. Best falafel I ever had.

They got a beautiful garden. There was vegetables from the garden. There was, they whipped up some tahini sauce. And and it was and we just sat and talked and laughed told some comic stories He showed me around the garden around the house. I met his young son and his wife was just Amazing and they were going out in a couple hours. I just couldn't believe the hospitality of it It was so warm and it definitely made me feel Connected not just to my community but to a city and to comedy and to you know friends I I just can't speak highly enough about being human and treating other humans with respect and love and you know just I don't know. I've been really kind of hung up on this lately and just getting out in the world with the people

and talking to people and spending time with your friends in real time, having real conversations and eating good food and just, you know, focus on that. Stay in touch with your humanity, will ya? All right, so Kamau Bell is, as I said, he's a regular guest on this show. If there are regular guests, he's one of them. And he's touring right now.

He'll be in San Diego this Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at Mic Drop Comedy. You can go to wkamaubell.com for the rest of his tour dates and locations, and I'll be doing a conversation with him at South by Southwest on Wednesday at 4 p.m. at the Austin Convention Center, and it was good to catch up with Kamau, and you can listen to that now.

Looking for your perfect place to call home? Lethbridge Land is shaping the future of our city with incredible communities like Crossings, riverstone and watermark. Each neighbourhood is designed with innovation, passion and responsibility to enrich your life today and strengthen Lethbridge for tomorrow. From vibrant urban hubs to serene, coolie views, there's a community waiting for you. Discover the lifestyle you've been dreaming of in a Lethbridge Land community. Visit lethbridgeland.ca and take the first step towards your new home today.

The fact that we don't do video, it's a different game. But oddly, we've noticed that some people are coming back around to audio. The fact that we don't do video. Oh, yeah, it's a different game, but oddly We've noticed that some people are coming back around to audio. Yeah, so we're like we're part of the new analog craze Which makes sense for you that you'd be like you're the I'll take it. You're the vinyl of podcast. I'll take it Yeah, it's fine with me. Yeah, I think I never wanted to be at the I didn't want to be in the gladiator arena I'm fine on the second stage for sure and I see you're doing there where you put photos in and stuff and like what like when you promote the thing You put likes somebody sometimes on Instagram when they do that. Yeah, that's that's a guy. I'm not I'm not I know it's not you on your phone like we find a good picture of Conan O'Brien as a baby

Yeah, I'm not I can't do that shit. No, you shouldn't it just it takes too much time and I don't know how to use time anyways Yeah, I mean the weird thing that people don't realize about self-employment is that you never stop no and It's impossible. I mean, but you got a bunch of kids. So I mean they demand attention. Yeah, so I imagine it's here There's a tough choice between the phone and the kid, but I usually go with the kid I imagine well, no one of the saddest things I can hear from my kid is, Dad, can you put the phone down? And I'd like to say I've never heard that, but I've heard that. You know, I know.

Can you look at me? Can you look at me? Yeah. Oh, really? He says that? It's been, it's been, I got, on occasion, you know, big news story breaks and you're like, whoa, I gotta keep up with this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I'll be right there. I gotta. But yeah, that's a good question, though. Do we have to keep up with this. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'll be right there. I got it. But yeah, that's a good question though Do we have to keep up with it? No No, we don't have to so I feel compelled I guess my wife says it all the time I was like I feel compelled to keep up with no I do too Yeah, you know and and there is a you know once you're you've been in the political racket for a while in terms of

Covering it one way or the other and once you're locked into the narrative and you kind of know the players and you've got a basic sense of how it works which which I only have a basic sense I couldn't tell you how Congress works and you know in depth well it's funny like that's I feel like there's always somebody on TV who's a congressperson who I've never seen before and you're like I feel like I know who these people are well there's a lot of there's just a lot of them So they're just yeah, but just in terms of the politics of Congress the politics of the Senate that going back and forth you know the the sort of nuances of the

The relationship between the three branches, which is all being disrupted now and probably never going to be the same I don't know that stuff, but I can follow a narrative Yeah I don't know that stuff, but I can follow a narrative Yeah, and the truth of the matter is is that the depth at which I'm following it It doesn't matter if I'm seeing it as breaking news. Yeah It's not gonna come back to you. It's not you missed it Yeah, and it's not gonna change my life now other than whatever I'm gonna do with my head. Yeah, which is not good Yeah, well, this is it. This is it a lot of that. It's over. Yep And then that just fucks up your day and then then your kids like you know you put the phone down

He's like why are you crying? Or why yeah, why are you yelling at your phone? Yeah, right? Yeah? I mean, I think that I just suffer from the Because I'm sort of trying to be you know in that instant response thing to keep the algorithm fed That like you feel like I got to get a thing out about a thing that just happened. So I can keep the... Yeah, yeah. Again, you've reached a velocity that is in a different place.

Not really. I just do this on the mic. I don't engage with the trolls or on Twitter or even on Blue Sky. It's just because for me, there's a futility to it, number one. It's relatively self-serving. And then, you know, the 100 to 200, even the 5,000 replies you get, all you did was make them feel better or pissed off at you. But ultimately, in terms of traction or having an impact, you know, the best you can do,

I guess, is make people feel better for a second. Exactly, yeah. Make people feel seen. And, you know, and I know that the, there is value in that because it's because of the way this all this stuff nonsense works is that the More you can sort of the more I can be out there sort of like making people feel seen or hurt or whatever Then when I go hey guys, can you watch this thing that I just made so that my kids can keep eating? That they go. Oh, yeah, he's he's been around. Yeah, can you watch this thing for money? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I need you to watch this for money. Can you buy tickets to my tour? Can you buy tickets? Well, I've been having some, there was a big shift in my approach to, I think, performing in whatever is happening now versus the first Trump administration. And in terms of, you know, what's required of me, you know, in relation to my audience.

Because you get to a certain age where you're like, all right, this is my audience, you know, for better, for worse. You know, there are grownups, there are thinking people, they're terrified. And there is that element of not just feeling seen, but when you do a show, and I imagine you feel the same way, this is a community service. Mm-hmm, yes, yeah, yeah.

People expect more than just the laughs. Well, it's not even a matter of expectation. They're literally in a room with like-minded people, depending on what your audience is, let's say 500 or more, which never happens, laughing at things that they understand and want to laugh at and need relief from, because you have to assume that no one's out there doing the civil actions every day. They're on their phones or freaking out with their loved ones or freaking out on their

phones with other people, and all of a sudden there's 500 to 1 to a thousand of them in a room together and I think it's That's the important part Yeah, and I think the thing that I feel especially now is a responsibility like but yeah, we're all here Let's let's laugh. I have a way of saying things that way make you feel better about things or enlightening you whatever blah blah blah But also then my job is be like also here's some things you need to go do once you leave here Oh, you do that. I do that, yeah. Do you hand out pamphlets? Just QR codes, Mark. It's QR codes.

You don't do... He holds up a board with a QR code on it. I think I'm going to get a tattoo just so I can like, yeah, right? This is the link to all the things that you can... The actions that can be taken. Yeah, all the things. I literally have that in a link tree and have a friend who yeah who put it together for me Cuz I feel like I have to encourage you to do like what are those things?

so List maybe I should have it It's just a list of subjects that if you should that if you're interested in like you can you can always find in your area If you find if your immigrant rights organizations always your help There's an organization called donor shoes that I'm on the board of that just supports public schools. And you can just give them $25 and feel like you did something. If you Google mutual aid in your area,

you can always find organizations that will just take stuff. It will just take your things. And so I feel like those three areas, I feel like are the areas at which, especially living in California, that are the most impactful immediately. Maybe go to a protest, maybe, but that's not actually the thing. And then figure like go to maybe go to a protest maybe but that's not actually the thing and then and then figure out what do you do for a living

this is why I tell about time where and figure out what you can do from your job so you don't actually have it's not always about going somewhere what are you doing at your job but but what's you know yeah I I can understand all those things and those seem to be things that would you know help and and make people feel like they were doing something. And I don't, in terms of protests, they sort of have to be organized, and there is a leadership around, and they seem to happen.

But I guess my concern, as time goes on here, is that we're being terrorized. And in terms of speaking up or making a stand at work, I mean, and this is gonna happen at all levels of liberal intention, that people are going to be afraid for whatever reason, whether it's physically or that they're gonna lose their job. But I don't think it's always about speaking up at work.

It's also just about there are people at your work who could use your support that you maybe aren't thinking about right now I don't mean in like a like stand on the table and flip stuff over but like you may work with people who are Undocumented or status and there may be a way you can go. Hey, what what do you need? What can I do? I need a casserole. I think that I think that we get too caught up in like the casserole with a passport exactly Like I think that I think that we get too caught up in like the casserole with a passport exactly Exactly, I think we get too caught up in the big giant things It's like most of it is like like for example Okay, like there's all this boycott talk about boycotting target and boycotting Walmart because they diverse they divested out of DEI they throw other deis definitely and and

People like boycott and people think boycott is just a magical like Harry Potter. I'm cynical about it I've been publicly cynical about boycott. Well, I think I've sort of been like well if it's a boycott, you know It has to be organized So like I think I was I with the Montgomery bus boycott like they boycott of the bus systems But they also made sure people had rides to work in school, right? Because you can't just say boycott the bus system and also if you're gonna boycott Target and Walmart. So what are your options?

Amazon. Well, for a lot of people who live in parts of the country, that's the thing is like, that's the store. They killed all the mom and pop stores. So a lot of black activists are like, we can't just say boycott like it's the same. And we can't say boycott without, how do you make sure people get what they need

if they don't go to those places? Yeah, you've got to find some alternative shopping situation. For sure. And also when you go to stores that aren't those stores, it's hard to get what you want sometimes. It's a little more. They're always telling you like, oh just order it online.

Exactly. Well, and I think for me, like, it's just like, I'm gonna try to like, you know, I'm in the position where like, I can shop at bookstores in my neighborhood that I'm paying more than I would at Amazon, but it just feels better, you know, I'm in the position where like, I can shop at bookstores in my neighborhood that I'm paying more than I would at Amazon, but it just feels better, you know what I mean? But I can do that, but not everybody can do that.

You know what else you can do? Just ask the publisher for the book. You're at that level now. Do you know who I am? Yeah, you don't even need that. They know who you are. I like to say that for like Disneyland and amusement parks. Oh, that's where you can use the hook Oh, that's where you use the hookups?

That's where I use the hookup because that's a lot. I get a lot of books. I get books sent to me though. I'll buy books. I bought that How Fascism Works book. And the joke I made about it was I'm about halfway through, but I can just read the news now and get together. Exactly.

It's constantly updated. It's happening. They're adding new chapters. I'll see you in the second half. But let's talk about this. I know that there was some press lately, and I don't know where you, what happened or what the follow through was. I mean, but you chose to honor your dates at the Kennedy Center? I had one day at the Kennedy Center on February 13.

And you did it? I did it, yeah. And this was after everyone pulled out? Well, no. This is why I think the algorithm is so funny, because I have people approaching me now on the street, literally saying, like, are you gonna do that date still? Are you gonna?

I did it, it was two weeks ago, you know? So like, the algorithm has confused people at what the details are. Oh, so it hadn't happened yet. So the date has happened, but like, what happened was like, I was on the flight headed to DC as Trump announced he was taking it over. So it was like nobody had pulled out, because it had just happened.

But you were able to speak about it. Yeah, so I was like, the Kennedy Center reached out to me because they were like, they would have understood if I was canceling. But the whole premise of Trump saying, I don't want woke stuff in there, I was like, well, he doesn't want me. Right. So I'm going to go be as woke as I can be right to me that felt like there's different ways to do this There's the way of like I don't want to give you my services or there's a way of like I'm gonna go in there and be Is and be the thing you don't want me to be and in the space you don't want me to be at sure that yeah

Yeah, yeah, but it hadn't really set in yet. It wasn't a revolutionary act no relative to no You know things that had already unfolded. No. So when I was headed there, Shonda Rhimes had pulled out, Ben Folds, and they're on the board. They didn't have dates there. And then Issa Rae had an event that was sold out that was later in March and she canceled. And so when Issa Rae canceled, there was a little bit of people coming in like, why aren't you supporting, Issa Rae canceled. Why aren't you supporting? Like, you know, when I read about your take on it, it seems to me that the thing would be

to go into those spaces and do your thing. And then if they pull you off stage, then you've done some sort of act of, not even civil disobedience, but protest against the dominating cultural ideology. And there's a sense of like, I was like, I'm going to go and they're going to have to lock me out. If they don't lock me out, then I'm going to really make sure I do, that I really sort

of pay it, like, sort of like channel the spirits of Lenny Bruce and Dick Gregory and do it the way I did it. And there's also like, there's 1500 people who came to the thing, who live in DC who are being like, who are experiencing whatever we're experiencing about DC, they're on the front lines of it. Sure, trauma every day. And the people who work there the same,

they needed a, like they like needed what I do, and I'm not trying to make it a big deal. Well, that's the interesting thing, man, and is that people do need it because, you know, there's not a ton of, I just don't think that, you know, monologue jokes by and large are enough to kind of take the air out of this thing in a show. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

Like, I have found that going up there and saying, look, you know, at least spend 15 minutes saying, look, I'm in the same place you are mentally. I'm experiencing the same powerlessness and hopelessness and fear. This is my reaction to it, which generally is funny. And you know, I've got a couple of bits. And then the shift in my presentation as a comic has become like, now I'm going to entertain.

Yes, yeah. And I've never really been that guy. Oh yeah. But like, I've really kind of has become like, now I'm going to entertain. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've never really been that guy. Oh yeah. But like, I've really kind of focused on like, we'll get this out of the way, we're all on the same page, and now like, I've got some entertaining things to do. I never looked at myself as an entertainer.

I know. I don't think that I necessarily changed my material, but I, you know, I tell a 20 minute story about evacuating with my cat, so that's pretty funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think, for me, like that night, and I didn't know what the plan, I about evacuating with my cat, so that's pretty funny And I think I for me like that night And I didn't know what the plan I'm like writing backstage like trying to think of like maybe say this because there's all this stuff It's happening And then later it was like as it was as it was written up like the first 20 minutes was basically just like hey guys

We're here. Yeah, the Kennedy Center. Give it up for the people in the back. I made jokes about I say you know after United States I say thank you to my sir Thank you for your service to everybody like not just not just military right So thank you for your service if you're working here right now Sure And and had been a protest out front of a dance protest of drag queens and I went out there hung out with them And I gave it up for them and and sort of like just said we're here in this now doing this and had jokes But some of them were just sort of at that point just ill-formed statements here

But it made everybody sort of like settle and realize that I'm with I'm in this with you right now I'm gonna tell you about my kids That's right. That's exactly right now. I'll do the bits now I'll do the thing that I came here to do that Yeah, and I was a little bit afraid that they people be like get back to how democracy is falling But they actually want to hear about the kids. They don't want to just stay in that well Yeah, they want to know that you're on board, but like, you know, that sort of thing. I wonder about that too, man, you know, because after doing

Air America and kind of plowing through the first Trump era, that when you're a public person who they assume has a voice, and I tried to keep my politics pretty personal, you know I in the sense that I will speak up against fascism because we're living in it and We were we've almost been in it many times and now it's here But you know, I'm not gonna you know sit there and deconstruct the fucking news. I'd rather put a gun in my mouth You're not more tall with the newspaper. Well, no, I mean you can do that. But like what newspaper, you know, like I mean It's not even that it's just that you know with somebody who has a microphone That you know, it's a it's a different it's a different show and different set of chops to be into the news cycle every day Yeah, and and what are you then?

Because I know you can get into a certain mania with that stuff to where you're not even humanizing No, and I think that for me this is where I sort of had this idea of like, I'm not actually, like these are the parts of it I care about and have jokes for, I'm not gonna go through the news with you. Right, yeah. Because I don't think I have takes that are like, somehow, like here's where, here's where I don't have like takes like that. I mean we don't have time, you know, even if you're touring a lot to go like, do you

guys see Jim Jordan today? Unless something really funny happened with Jim Jordan, yeah, maybe half the crowd side Yeah, that's the other thing that like, you know all these people that are and I talk about this my producer a lot that are still sort of speaking about this as if it's a Presidency. Yes. Yeah, it's sort of like when are you guys gonna? Yeah, that's my way to fuck up That's my main thing to be like, you know after the Elon Musk Nazi salute I'm like, okay, we have if we can't be clear about this we're doomed Yeah, you're sitting there going like, you know, you can be like Bill Maher. It's like well, I'm gonna agree with some of the I'm not it's like dude. You're a bitch. Yeah

You know, we you, I like Kid Rock. Yeah, I like that one song. Yeah, and now you're gonna blow him with a slightly disdainful look on your face, and that's who you are? There's a whole generation of comedians who have been confused about the fact that they're smart for comedians,

and thinking that means that they're smart generally. And I think that there's just a whole bunch of comedians who have been heralded for their hot takes and political, and they're not, there's just, yeah, for a comedian you're doing a good job, but you're not doing a good job for a person who thinks about this stuff. But there's this spectrum of comedian,

like comedians, sure, this or that, but early on, I think you responded to that post I did about, again, you know, if you're a useful idiot, and you know, it's like, you gotta own that. Exactly. And either you know you are and you're in it for the grift, or you don't, or you just believe that shit, which is fine, but even believing that shit at this point. It's like well

This is fundamentally anti-democratic Yeah, and then I'm working on this bit about how like these bold Freedom of speech warriors who have now finally got the right to speak power to truth What courageous yeah freedom of speech warriors. Perhaps they can make truth just run away. I believe the winners are correct. Yes. Oh yeah.

So that's yeah. And I would be, I was so, I know not, you know, the whole Rogan's fear of comedians and under him who were like proud to show up and sit at the inauguration and like, dude, you've just been bought and I don't think you even sold yourself for that much. Well, I don't, yeah, it's very hard for me to understand it you know, with like, first of all, with sociopaths, I talked about this with Brendan that, you know, I'm like, do they believe it or do they know it's a grift?

And he said, sociopaths believe what they're saying, you know, which is disturbing. I'd rather them be just, you know, pitch men. Yeah, yeah. Or else they know politics enough to know what they're angling know, pitchmen. Yeah, yeah. Or I'll say no politics enough to know what they're angling for, even if it's about money. But, you know, but some of these comics, the guys that, you know, are apparatchiks,

there's only like three or four of them, but there is a bunch of people beneath them who use their juice... Yes, yes, yes. ...for their audience. Now, for me, it's sort of like, I couldn't even imagine performing for that audience. I could do it.

I've done it before. I go out into the regular rooms. I, you know, but I assume that they all think, you know, I'm some sort of woke fuck, which I am mostly, but- But you're also, nobody can question your comedy bona fides either. No, I know that, but like I don't necessarily even even if I

If I if I feel like, you know, well fuck it. I'm gonna see it as a challenge And i'm gonna make these animals laugh. It's like what's the victory there? That's that's my whole point. That's my whole point I like in my return to comedy at this point like I didn't do it for five years You didn't I was out for five years five years. Yeah. Yeah So like when covid hit I thought maybe I'm really out because I was like, I'd been out for a couple of years at that point. Yeah.

Because I started doing like docu, like. Well, I remember the documentary, the Cosby documentary, then you had the CNN show, right? Yeah, yeah, so I was like working and like, but just, but when, and so when I was home, I'd be like, I don't want to go out and do standup because I'm not home that often anyway. And so I thought I was retired, but then when I came back,

part of what sort of like I had to wrestle with was like I don't want to go to the punchline on Sunday nights and stand in the back like I don't want to like do it that way Why would you have to do it that way because that's what I think that's what I comedy you have to go to the club And you know but I mean, but why would you stand in the back you could get your spot? No, but you know what I mean like yeah, but I just I didn't want to do it I didn't want to write my house Yeah, yeah for the 15 minutes 15 minutes to like and you spent all the like I think I'm glad I did that Yeah, I just was like then I had to go well

You're not doing that and now I'm what 50 or 45 50 52 that like and I don't I want to be if I'm out of my House I want to be really productive. I don't be hanging out, right? So I had to sort of decide like it's okay to not do it that way Sure, and and so I just started booking Like this an hour the Berkeley rep had like a small 60 seat theater. That's what I used to do with Dynasty Yeah, you want put together the hour and so I would do I do like an eight week Yeah, yeah, eight week pregnancy. I didn't even make money. I just wanted to like have a place to go Yeah, and then I that went okay, and then I went back and did two shows on Saturday

And it was four and seven because I'm because I'm civilized Yeah, and like that's where I sort of got the hour back was like okay because I was doing it my way I wasn't like I still haven't like gone to the club to do a small set I just like I just it's not for me. You know well. I do that for a very specific reason Yeah, well you're like you're again you you you've done all the like you've done that work. You know yeah Well, I mean that's why I do it, is it's like keeping shape. You know, like I can go out and do my hour and a half or whatever with my people,

but I wanna go hammer it out with the general public. Yeah. You know, to get my reps in. So when I do go out to my people, I'm like, I'm sharp. It's funny, I think I feel the opposite. I'm like, let me go mess around with my people and then I'll get it sharper there for the general public. Like I will sort of like, I'll do all the exploring here

and then I'll be like, oh, that piece can work for the general public. Let me go take that. Yeah. And maybe not. And that's why I have nine jobs. That's why I have not put all my chips on standup comedy. Yeah.

It's weird to take, and I recall this from, the first Trump administration when you're doing general crowds, whether it's in your head or not, it takes another set of balls to fucking plow through some of that stuff. Well, I'm playing the next club I'm playing. I'm doing mostly theaters, but about to do a regular weekend at a club in San Diego, the Mic Drop Comedy Club. I don't even know what that is. Yeah, no, I didn't know what it is either. Yeah. Comedy Club. I mean regular. Yeah, no, I didn't know what it is either Yeah, but I was like a regular club with a Friday night second show and ten o'clock

Diego like I'm gonna find out some things you can do the hour Maybe I'll do the 45 minutes. Maybe you know, maybe that's what I bust out some of the old stuff You guys remember? Yeah, maybe they will bell with a little dog I remember, Toggle Bell with the little dog. Yeah, that dog. That was kind of racist. So I'm actually more nervous about that than I was at the Kennedy Center. Of course you are.

It's like the trenches. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, when I'm working on an hour, there's some markets I don't do theaters in. And there's a couple markets that I shouldn't be now, but I'm doing it. But I go do all the clubs. And that kind of two shows Friday, two shows Saturday, show Thursday.

You know, that second show Saturday where I get kind of like... Loose? Yeah, you get loose and a little weird. But there's still a thrill to that. No, I think I came up in that world, but I think for me, I wouldn't have been able to build up, I wouldn't have been able to, if I was just going out and doing showcases,

I couldn't build the hour. I couldn't build the hour. Yeah, because you can't do it in pieces. No, you can't sort of like, I know I'm lost here, but I gotta be lost to find out where I'm trying to get to. Yeah, I find that a lot of times you do the hour and you're outside of being older, you're basically, you run in the same circles,

you know, in terms of your thought. Yeah, yeah. That you're kind of restating things you've said before with today's spin. Yeah, well, that's the great thing about having taken such a break is that I have a lot of stories that have happened in the last five years. Oh, good.

So I don't feel like I'm like scraping the barrel. I'm like, no, there's a little bit. Well, with three kids, you're, you know, and how old old is the oldest 13? Oh, so you got stories for another? She's about to go to high school. So it's just getting started the good bits are on their way. Yeah. Yeah, it's all gonna happen Who is this guy? Yeah Get your angle on that. Yeah I got to tell her when she was 12 She told me some something on one of the boys in her class done that was stupid and I was like hey

From the ages of 12 to 30 boys are just trash. Yeah, you should just know that And then I told other people another woman like it's older than 30 I was like, yeah, I know but I didn't want to bum her out for always. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, maybe maybe they will always be trash Yeah, but uh, but like what the why me who the fuck is the Kennedy Center gonna book? How many times could they booked him out and kid rock? That's the question and the people who work or doesn't even care if it stands empty Well, no, they know they definitely believe I know from people who were there Who's that they have been called to by the people who are running it like they want more Christian acts and more?

Country acts right which is funny because it's like I know it's the Kennedy Center to you But it's actually really just a venue in DC. No of course. And DC is not you know if you want to move the Kennedy Center to Branson, Missouri you can do that. Yeah. But you're not but DC is a place where there are more dragged queens that are probably gonna perform there a year than Country Music Acts you know. Not that they don't do country music. Yeah. You know. Yeah the Christian Acts it's interesting is I guess people have been telling me there's these rock stations that fool you. You're like, what is this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And all of a sudden it's a, it's a worship song. It's often like you when, when you were like, why are

they saying you like that? I love you. Like it's very like not just a girl. It's not a girl at all. It's not a girl at all. It's, it's, it's the big, it's the big you. Yeah big you yeah capital Y value. Yeah The holy thou but yeah like Rihanna and Giddens cancelled and I get it Like if you're I think a comic is in a unique position where you can speak directly to what's going on Yeah, where if you're a musician you can but it's not really what you do And especially if you're a comic like us you can literally go I'm just gonna talk and we'll get to the jokes later Yeah, and so I think that I was in a unique position I'm just gonna talk and we'll get to the jokes later. And so I think that I was in a unique position,

but people wanna put you on one side or the other. And I'm like, no, I'm old enough to remember and to have learned the Civil Rights Movement, sometimes it was about boycotts and sometimes it was about sit-ins and sometimes it was about spontaneous action. It's like, it's not just one thing. Yeah, but maybe I have gone off the edge

with my cynicism around civil disobedience and protest, but I'm having a hard time sort of fathoming how we can have an impact on this juggernaut other than state politics and working class people who are fed up. Well, I think one way, first of all, every time I see a group of white, old white people yelling at their congressmen at the town hall meeting. That's the only ones who are left to do it because they grew up with that.

Yeah, of course. Because they're the last ones to believe. They're the ones who always think the system's on their side, even though there's evidence to show them that the town hall meeting's right. But they're also the ones that were at the old protests. And at the January 6th Yeah, but I think the fact that those people are so clearly angry this early about what's going on is a sign of like a

Sign that things could get better, but we need to like invite those people in and not freeze them out because they're you talking about Conservatives. Yeah Okay You're talking about conservatives. Yeah, I'm talking about conservative, I'm talking about regular white folks. Oh, the working conservatives, okay, I get you. Regular white folks. Because I thought you were talking about the old hippies that show up. No, no, no, they're gonna show up, I'm not talking about, I went to that protest on week seven in Berkeley,

it's great, but it's not the one that moves the needle. The one that moves the needle is these white, MAGA-headed people. Who are getting fucked. Who are like, you're fucking my social security up. Well, I think they just bought into the grievance buzz and assumed that he was talking shit. Or assumed that the shit he was talking didn't have an impact on them. Well, I think everybody has a thing about, you're not talking about me.

If you're saying something bad, you're not talking about me. And I think that's what it was. And now they realize, no, they were talking. He is coming after your, not coming after woke Social Security, he's coming after your Social Security. Well, if they can figure out how to come after woke social security They will they will but they but also they really don't care about the though those those white people now and those white people are Finding out so for me the fact that those people have turned so early is a good sign

Well, yeah, and also they don't care if they die You know for sure and there's gonna come a point which we're gonna have a number to point to that's like this many people died Because of this thing that they did like so if they if they screw up somebody's social security, there's people who will miss one check and die. You know what I mean? Sure. I mean, there's already people dying all around the world because of the denial of aid. I mean, how is it not going to happen here through Medicare, social security, government

funding, farm subsidies? I mean, people are gonna fucking die. Yeah, so I just think that like, those, the more we have people like these white MAGA people who realize they're getting screwed over, the more that these, all these Trumpers start to see that like, wait, like you've seen this happen, wait, Elon can do a Nazi salute, but if I do it,

I get fired, the more you start to learn, you're not like them, They're not like you. And they're not gonna help you get your job back when you get fired from trying to be like them. I got a good joke on that. I think you'll like it. I just, I put my hand up with the Hale Hitler, and I go, this is right wing virtue signaling.

It's exactly what it is. It's exactly what it is. It's exactly what it is. Steve Bannon did it. You can tell he just did it because he's like, I guess we're doing this now. I guess we're doing this now. You gotta throw one in. Little nervous about it.

Yeah, I don't really feel great about it, but I'm trying to get daddy's attention. And also I'm half responsible for it. Yeah, I didn't know it would go this far this quickly. And also I thought I'd be more in the seat of power. I'm outside the house trying to get back in. Oh, he'll get back in. I think, don't you? I mean, I think Trump goes through people.

Yeah. What is your personal level of fear on a day-to-day basis? So I'm super happy that I live in Oakland. I just want to be clear about that. And talking to my kids the night that Trump won, there was a whole talk about, well, while this is bad for the country, we are fortunate that we both live in, we live in California, we live in the Bay Area, and we live in Oakland. It feels like it just gets more and more protected as we get there. So, what's Oakland like now?

I mean, Oakland, like every city is going through it, but it's, it has been really used as a way to like the doom loop stuff out of San Francisco has been sort of the idea that like the city is falling apart. It is definitely going through it, but it is not, it is a great city. The doom loop? The doom loop. Has it hit Oakland? Yeah, yeah, the tales of the doom loop.

Well, what is the doom loop is essentially? Just the idea that like there is no opportunity. The vacuum of tech money. The vacuum, like people left in the pandemic. Yeah. Like basically people left the Bay Area after the pandemic, but the housing prices didn't come down. Yeah, and there's a lot of empty real estate. Like basically people left the Bay Area after the pandemic, but the housing prices didn't come down.

Yeah, and there's a lot of empty real estate. And there's a ton of homeless people. Like it just every, you know, like there's a ton of encampments all over the city. Right. So it's like, you can see the poverty in a way that like people who grew up in Oakland their whole lives were like, yeah, it was, maybe it was more violent when I was a kid,

but it wasn't this desperate. It's almost like the, the, the the tenderloin spread, like a cancer. Yep, yeah, yeah. So throughout the whole city. So like, I mean, Oakland's mayor was just recalled. So we're just, Oakland's going through some, Barbara Lee, who was our congressperson, is running for mayor.

So it's definitely going through some transitions, but it's still a great place for me to raise my family. I wouldn't go anywhere else. Yeah, and do you get involved in city politics? Yeah, actually just, in a way that like I'm trying I was helping a group where I'm with a group of a Activist and filmmakers boots Riley's one of them where we're trying to that guy doing he's doing exactly the same He's he's working. He's making a new TV show I don't know how he sells these weird projects to people and makes them and he butots has not, he has new hats every now and again.

I think, but he's- Literally. Yeah, he literally has new hats, but he's never, I've never been like, man, Boots seems to be going through a rough time. It's like, our kids both dance at the same dance place, so we see each other on the dance. Yeah, he's a hustler.

He's a absolute hustler. And so yeah, we're on board of a group called Cinnamama, he invited me to be on the board, of local artists who are trying to figure out how to make Oakland a more Livable place for artists and filmmakers and so yeah So I had to work with some people in the city to get Oakland to pass The same sort of tax incentives that you get in like Toronto so that so that it's affordable to film in Oakland Oh really? Yeah, so we got him passed. It's just the city's too broke to really do anything with it

but yes, I'm for the first time in my life, I'm actually like Done the kind of organizing I always wasn't doing, like the let's go to meetings and let's go shake hands. And you've picked a specific area. Yeah, like this thing about picking the area, I'm not gonna solve the crime problem, but if we could get Hollywood,

if we can make it easier for people to film here, that's jobs. Yeah. So it's like, and it also gives people who live here a way to stay. Yeah. Yeah. And what about just like in terms of your being? The fear level in terms of going out on the road or any of that shit. I mean there is definitely like

Like the before even Trump dropped out of the before he even took over the Kennedy Center They called me at one point and we're like we're gonna hire security And I know whenever I get that call, that like something has happened. So I know that we live in a time where a guy like me who's out here calling Nazis Nazis, just has to be more aware of what I'm doing. And so I am aware. Luckily, like I said, because I live in Oakland,

I feel safe wherever I go in Oakland. I feel like the city's got my back. But I don't travel with a team of people. Which in some sense, I think it's helped because people don't expect me to be walking around places but like yeah it's definitely a thing where I'm aware that like you know me and my wife talk all the time about like sometimes I'll say things and she'll see the internet get upset and like this Kennedy Center thing and it's like she's just like whoo like there's a sense of like this could come home to us right I mean yeah and we've gotten a hate mail not in

the not in a while but there's times we've gotten hate mail, not in a while, but there's times we've gotten hate mail and stuff. And so it's just the thing. When you were on CNN? Yeah, when I was on CNN, yeah, because I was just lumped in with the whole crew. So, you know, I'm aware that like, I could turn down the volume on some things

just to make things easier for myself, but I just don't have it in me to, I wouldn't know what I would be doing otherwise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get nervous and In scared because of that that once you walk out of the venue. You're kind of on your own Yeah, yeah after the show you sort of like and the thing that I also have is like I can feel like there's a lot of Especially because a lot of security people are black often and they will be like they will take extra care I feel like I'm getting extra care because they know what I'm going through what I'm out there doing you know yeah

Yeah, so it's like it's a thing sometimes. I can feel people like no no no like really like watching out for me in ways Just oh, that's good. Yeah, no I Who knew I would be considered? I'm also in my as as a grey-haired 52-year-old man I'm in my unki years, so people see me as like the old guy who like We got to take it, we gotta protect him, you know what I mean? So yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a pillar of the community. Yeah, I'm a pillar of the community though.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, I always said it's funny, I was never a G, but I get to be an OG. Yeah, sure. Just because I didn't die. Sure, yeah, yeah. I was never cool enough to be a G. He's got the stories. Yeah, I got the stories, now I got some stories.

So, but yeah, I mean, I got three kids and, we, you know, we did a doc that they were in, and me and my wife talked a lot about, is this, should we do this? And it's just, it's a constant negotiation of like, what should I be doing? How much should we be doing? How much should I be putting them out there?

It's a constant negotiation about how to move through the world. Right, but do you ever get to that point where you're like, look, I'm just gonna worry about my life Fuck this other shit Now Like I wouldn't I for yeah, I wouldn't I don't mean to be like that's how I was raised

But I just the career that I've chosen is it that there's not a just worry about my life version of this Yeah, like the way that I've chosen to do my career, I could have, it would have been much easier on me as a human to not make a four hour documentary about Bill Cosby. It would have been much easier. What was the pushback on that? I mean, I knew going in, a lot of black people,

like I will run into black people on the streets, like black dudes especially who are around my age who are like, brother, I liked everything you did except for that, and will like sort of like Want to read me the riot act about that thing? Oh, why? Why'd you have to throw them under the bus? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean like what about that dude You know that guy who did the OJ doc. Oh, yeah, he's good. Yeah, he's great Yeah, I mean must have taken a lot too, but he's Ezra's like a ghost. You don't see him

Like I'm out there in the streets like I'm out there like shake I'm running for king of show business where Ezra's like a ghost, you don't see him. I know. Like, I'm out there in the streets, like I'm out there like, shaking, I'm running for king of show business, where Ezra's just like, I don't know where he is. Yeah, yeah, it was the work. Yeah, yeah, he just, and he- I think he's in New York. Well yeah, and he just did that, he just did that nine hour Prince doc that's never gonna come out.

Why? Because the Prince people don't like it. Oh really? It's nine hours, it's a Netflix nine hour doc about Prince, and in classic Ezra fashion, it was supposed to be like a five hour doc, and he made a nine hour doc. Yeah. And they don't fashion it was supposed to be like a five hour doc and he made a nine hour doc and they don't like

all the things he went into so it's apparently not gonna see the light of day and it's finished. Wow. Yeah. Nothing he can do, not willing to change it. Not willing to change it, I think he could do a lot. He could cut it down to what they want, he could take all their notes but he's not doing that. And what do you make of that,

that you get pushback on Cosby? I understood it, I mean like I said as a as a dude who grew up in that era I know what people are investment in Cosby and I know that like I get the black perspective of like we have to stick together Yeah, like I get it But it's also like but not if one of us is hurting us, right? You know, so I didn't it wasn't surprising and I sort of imagined all the worst things that could happen Like I think it's great things I've been a comedian is having an active imagination So I knew somebody's gonna put out a thing that we need to talk about W

Come out Bell because that was we need to talk about Cosby and that happened on YouTube So we need to talk about W come out Bell and and I saw all the comedy things all the black comedy things that I watch On YouTube watching about black comedy. They they didn't agree with me like I said, oh, yeah for that reason What do you got hit one of our own for yeah or you know the white man sets you up blah blah blah blah blah you know so but one of the great things about being older is like I stand by the work I know it's good and unless you help me raise my kids I don't give a shit like I just don't I don't have I used to really care about other is that weird to develop that callous

yeah like I just don't have time to yeah but then every once in a while you have moments of regression and you're for. What did I do? Well, no, sometimes you get caught up in a thread Oh good, but like generally like it's like I just if I don't see it if I just like like YouTube was like You want to see this who needs to talk we talk about WK mobile video. I don't want to see that No, like but yeah, I just and you know, there's still over time It's been a net plus because I think more people are happy that we had the conversation Also with like Diddy going down. It's just very clear that show is is ugly and we need to get rid of the ugly parts Yeah, and what do you make of the black MAGA?

Yeah, I think they're the tails of the black MAGA are highly exaggerated I think there it's there's way more talk about them than there actually is them, you know They get one guy Yeah, who's out of his mind anyway? Yeah Yeah, and those guys don't last very long like they don't so yeah I think that like still black men voted for Kamala Harris and like it's like 87% or something Yeah, it's just which is way higher than white women sure right men So I think it's like it is a talking point that people like to use because we like to try to figure out how to

Blame it on black people somehow and it's a good way to shame black people or is it blame or is it like look we got some Yeah, we well, they also they need to have some yeah, they need to have they need to have that guy the black friend Yeah, I was on instagram and this guy came after me talking about something. I said never as he was the black gay guy Who was at a maga event and got kicked out and called to the N-word. And he was a MAGA guy at a MAGA event, and they bullied him out of the event. And he's still a MAGA guy. And I'm like, aren't you that guy who got,

he's like, yeah, all right, man, take care. He's like, we don't need to debate anything. You've shown me who you are. Yeah, and it's a pathology that's beyond politics. No, no, it's definitely about like something with your family Yeah, there's something broken. I and I'm not gonna be mad at you, but I'm not gonna you know I'm I'm well beyond like debate me bro. Like I'm not gonna debate you on the that's another line at you on stage No, it's so look. I know, you know what my you're my audience. We're all broken, but we broke left

We're not douchebags or empathy whores, exactly. That's all I want is empathy. Yeah, so I don't, you know, I think black magas are a convenient way to not really attract the problem of like, it's actually white people. It's just white people. But also when it comes right down to a black or white, you realize that a lot of these guys are in it for the money, man. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, like I'm above this shit.

Yeah. You know, sure. I'll play for these people. I'll play to them. I'll play of them. That's the questionable one. But that's the funny thing is that, but it never, the grift doesn't ever last that long. No, I know.

But does any grift? No, some grifts. I mean, I guess, yeah, the supplement grift. There's some grifts that are like, you know, like, eternal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eternal grift know some grips? I mean, I guess yeah the supplement there's some grips that are like, you know, like eternal Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah eternal grip and New Testament I say the white grifters get a longer grift window That's all I would say like, you know, Bill O'Reilly got a real long grift window Tucker Carlson got a long grift window Glenn Beck but but the black grifters generally don't get that long of window

I don't get that they don't get they don't get ten long of a window. They don't get 10 years of grift. It's interesting about the grift because I think at the core of it is that they don't give a fuck about people, about anything but their ability to stay in that zone of wealth and privilege. Yeah. And you got to fake it till you make it. There's a lot of like, if I pretend I'm on this side, I will somehow, my net worth will come up to be on this side. And I think they're relying on the fact that most people, the people who pay close attention

to politics are a small percentage of people. So you don't actually have to have facts and figures to convince anybody. You just gotta have vibes. So like, I think they just rely on the fact that, especially now that so much of the MAGA movement is tied into manhood and masculinity and the Andrew Tate thing. So it's all tied into being a man and being a provider. And so it's not even tied into politics. Yeah, but it's also about exploiting

the sort of fundamentally male frustration of a lot of young guys that have no game and you know whatever they're aspiring to is mostly just you know fuck you. I'm gonna make you pay for this. Yeah but these guys have no game and speaking as a person who did not have a lot of game you're de-gaming yourself. Well I didn't have a lot of game but with a certain part of the culture I had some game. Yeah no for sure.

I wouldn't say it was a game applicable to any situation. It wasn't a broad game. It wasn't soccer, it was highline. Yeah, exactly. It was a very specific game. Very specific game area. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, my game didn't travel well. So yeah, I just think that like, you have like been, you know, like there's been all, like Andrew Tate is the greatest example of this Like you are pretending to be a person that you're not you're also a sex trafficker And you're telling guys if you pay me thousand dollars a month You will just that's will help you be more like me But really all I want is thousands of dollars a month, and there's no being like me because I'm not real I

Asked somebody about an audience for Jordan Peterson oh yeah, and they said it was the weirdest audience they ever saw. They characterized it as being like nerdy guys with clearly escorts. And I'm like, yeah. When you see the distance between the two people, it's like this is somebody's, this is a credit card exchange. Yeah. You're gonna get a receipt at the end of the evening.

That's right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what are you telling your kids, the ones that can understand? Well, no, at 13, 10, and 6, they all can understand on some level. What are the principles that you're imbuing? Is that the word? No, that's good. Yeah, because it's funny, I was thinking about, we don't, like, we didn't, my wife grew up Catholic, I grew up just black Christian, whatever that meant. But we both did a lot of church and mass and stuff, but our kids don't do that. We just didn't do that with them

because my wife didn't feel like we have to take them to Catholic mass because she's a sensitive, thoughtful person. And that's why it's scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but like we certainly, one of the big things we talk about is just gratitude. Because I think my kids get to see and do a lot of things

that they wouldn't get to do if not for my career. And it's really important to me to sort of actually be like, just to be clear, you don't deserve this. Like I said, I use my celebrity status to get us into Universal Studios, just because it was like, but then at the end of the day, this was a great thing we did,

we got these people are nice, da-da-da-da-da, don't walk around like a jerk because you got to go to Universal Studios. And so for me, gratitude is a big part of it and also that we talk about it literally It's our family job to try to make the world a better place Yeah, like you know that that's a because we have is there a checklist. Yeah starts with cleaning your room Like making your bed making your bed Yeah, yeah, not that I'm even great that but it does start with like like doing well in your area and then going out in the world and like

You know one of the best things as a dad you can see is when your kid helps somebody out in the world without you Say anything to them like so for me. It's like seeing my kids do that and seeing like Sammy like you know any I got mixed-race kids, so I feel like some stuff I can't like let go on said sounds like look you can see a black woman in the street, you smile at her. Doesn't matter if you know her or not. You smile at her, you nod at her, because she's going to see you, and she wants to know that you see her back. And you say hello.

You nod. You call a ma'am. So to be like, this is a part of what it is to be in our community. So we went to Alabama last year. And that had been in Alabama in years because of COVID, and I was like, look, every black woman you meet is gonna think that you're, they're gonna think they've known you since you were a baby

and you've never met them before. And you just gotta like understand, they're gonna hug you and kiss you, like this is what it is. I can't let things go unsaid that I might if they were black kids growing up with two black parents in a black neighborhood. You know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, so do you have family in Alabama? My dad lives in mobile, Alabama

Really? Yeah forever. It was yeah born and raised there has lived other places But it's always he really likes being a big fish in a small town. He really likes what kind of fish is he? He was an insurance guy. So he like he was the insurance commissioner for the state of Alabama at one point So he's like a really like he's a guy that people go. What do you run for mayor? But he's like he's a really big fish in that down really. Yeah. Yeah, Walter Bell. Oh, wow, Walter Bell. Yeah, there you go Yeah, so he's that so only in the last ten years have I caught him in that town Like now people say I saw your son like now he's my dad but for years I was his son. Oh, yeah Yeah, so you're kind of like, you got an extended family

of people who know who you are there. Oh yeah, for sure. Like if I go there, it's not about, it's I saw you on TV, but I also saw you in your diapers and I know your grandmother and I know, and people who are like, come on, good to see you again. And I'm like, I have no idea who this person is. Yeah!

Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's good to see you again too. How are they all holding up down there? I mean, Alabama is such a funny place because they don't expect much because it's Alabama. That's an interesting idea in terms of what is scary in terms of community, right? Yeah. Yeah, I imagine because like, you know, panicky white liberals are are different than you know dug in black communities Yeah, the governor always hates us

It's not like it's not new for the governor. It's like occasionally get a nice a nicer Republican governor right now They have a bad one. Yeah, okay Ivy Yeah, who they call me ma but yeah, like the governor always is against us. They're always taking from us. So we always have to figure it out on our own. Right, right. And it's more like, here we go again. Here we go again, yeah. So it's like, it's not like a big,

and I have to get along with MAGA people, because I wouldn't be able to talk to people if I didn't talk to MAGA people. Right, but in some ways, not to be stereotyping, but that dynamic has been there forever, in one form or another. In the South, for sure, for sure. And I'm not even sure that the people

that they're dealing with, however you wanna label them, are fundamentally any more racist. No, it's just a different style. It's just like, it's just like, it's just. Different hat. I always say it's like every place in America is racist. It's just you gotta, if you're lucky, you get in the place where you where you fit with the style of racism If you get to pick yeah, you get to pick like I couldn't do Boston racism

I know because you're gonna live in another part of the city exactly Yeah, you don't even know where they live. They still call black people slurs I don't know like they still got the old ones the real old what yeah the Irish one yeah the Irish would so I you know in Alabama I like to go down I love going to Alabama feeling comfortable down there but I wouldn't live done it fucking interesting though that that in what are stereotypically the more racist regions of the country they're much more integrated places yeah because they had to get along because they were like yeah working they were working together I'm putting in air quotes. They had to like-

Not everybody could go to Chicago. Yeah, exactly. You couldn't be so racist as a white person that you didn't want to talk to black people. You had to talk to them because you needed to tell them what to do that day. And also- Or fulfill their order or whatever.

Yeah, you had to know how to be around. So there's much more closeness weirdly more closeness weirdly sure how yeah? Yeah, like New York City where everybody goes into their apartment and looks down. What was your experience in Boston? I was I lived in Boston when I was a little kid. Oh, yes. I lived there for years Yeah, no, I I Boston was places where I like I can go but it's not it's like a childhood memory of a place But right right, but it's funny But like I I lived there enough enough that people from Boston feel like, ah, I knew you were one of us.

Yeah, I met Matt and Ben Affleck. Oh yeah, yeah, sure. And they were like, ah, you're a Boston guy. Sure. Not that Boston. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those Affleck guys can really turn on the Boston. They sure can.

They sure can. They're funny, man. Yeah, no. So yeah, but again, moving around a lot as a kid I'm that's why I think I sort of feel like I understand this country in a way a lot of people don't cuz I sure A lot of it sure yeah, and are you taking your kids out in the world for sure? Yeah I just I took him to DC last summer. I took him to show them all the things I showed him all the things what's he gonna fuck with the museums to you

Yeah, I, he's gonna fuck with the museums. Yeah. I think he's gonna, I think he's gonna, I think he's only gonna not fuck with things if they don't come across his desk, but I absolutely think, like the national, the African American museum there is this incredible. Unbelievable.

It's just this incredible, I took my kids there and it was like, I saw it when it first opened and I was like, I gotta bring my kids here. And I'm so happy I waited because they all appreciated it on different levels and we like, they would have stayed. And when I was a kid, I would have opened and I was like, I gotta bring my kids here. And I'm so happy I waited, because they all appreciated it on different levels and they would have stayed. And when I was a kid, museums were different too.

But yeah, so I sort of wonder what happened to that museum. He theoretically, on a policy level, he could close the whole place down because it's too woke. Yeah, no, for sure. Or just make it harder to deal with. We're gonna change the hours or we're gonna charge money. Because they're all free, but they could just or just make it harder to deal with like we're gonna like, you know change the hours We could charge money because they're all free, but they could just decide now it's gonna be $50 how are they not saying that is the capital of DEI? Well that that's I know the guy who runs that museum and I I sort of want to reach out be like hey man

What's it? Yeah, how you handling if you need? You think I can do for you? Leave me to send out a tweet or whatever something yeah, cuz I just feel like what the fuck was their email with the email to that place stops your your DEI We need more white we need more. Well, they'll just tell the slavery story differently They live together, you know, they got slaves got free room and board you gotta do that as a bit They'll just change because the lower level now is super do that as a bit. Yeah, that's true. They'll just change, because the lower level now is super intense and depressing. Just switch it. Oh yeah.

Yeah, just switch it to make it the white person's point of view. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hi, I'm Kid Rock, here to tell you about slavery. Yeah. That's a funny fit, dude. That's funny.

No, I think that like, but yeah, like the funny thing, the cool thing is my middle kid is 10, and so she's at the age now where I took her on the road with me one time I had a gig in and like at Colorado State University and like I think it's in Fort Collins And then I gig in Portland at a podcast and I just took her with me on the road Yeah, and it's like a ten-year-old on the road with you and it was great Yeah, like it was it was just learning thing Yeah

learning things and figuring out airports and how to like it also like know we have to stay here because we got to go here and Yeah, yeah, you'll be on stage. You'll sit here and like it was it was just learning thing. Yeah learning things and figuring out airports and how to like it also like no We have to stay here because we got to go here. Yeah. Yeah, you'll be on stage You'll sit here and like it was it was really like fun in a way that it's not fun If I go by myself by the third night was she like yeah, can we do the same thing? She gives notes she does give notes last night. You said it funnier. Yeah Which actually appreciate it's like well, thank you. You're right, I did say it funnier last night. There's that moment where you tell whoever your girlfriend is, like, you don't have to come tonight.

You don't have to, you've seen it, I don't have any new stuff. Or when they ask, do you have any new stuff? You're like, oh no. Maybe one thing. Yeah, maybe it's a- Why can't I stay home? Yeah, no, but yeah, so it's, yeah,

my kids have traveled a lot, which is great, because I think, again, it's just the benefit of out of the country to a little bit But not as much as you know COVID hit pretty early in their life So now what how do you see the effect of it on them now? Do so my six-year-old I think it's just very clear that she was not socialized at the age where her sisters were So I talked about my act my joke is that she's feral. But she's really like, she just didn't, there's a whole generation of kids,

like when you go to her first grade class, it's just a little bit chaos and it's not the teacher's fault, but it's a whole generation of kids who at two years old weren't mixing up with other kids. So I think that there's- Oh, you can really see it, huh? You can totally see it, you can totally see it. I have all my friends who had kids

who were making transitions like kids Who went from like who were going to middle school right when COVID hit her kids? Yeah high school right or a little bit like tweaked because their new level experience wasn't the thing They thought it was gonna be well. They didn't evolve into it They didn't they didn't get to have the like yeah, they're you know preteen years like Yeah My goddaughter who actually write about in the book was like going to college and had a whole plan to go

To DC and and then couldn't do all that stuff So yeah, I think there's a whole we're gonna see the effects of these kids forever Well, I think it had a profound effect on our politics too for sure. I mean come on, you know, like you know I mean, that's really where the sides were divided. I think yeah I think that like that's when they really dug it. It's so weird that you would think Trump wasn't the president as much as they've talked about, as much as they've talked about how badly COVID was handled.

Like, you know, that was you, right? Right. Like, that was like, you know, you did that. And you know, the vaccine that you hate, you developed. That was under your administration. So, but yeah, that's when they really dug into the- But also like they dug into the government intrusion. I think the- Don't trust the government. Well well the vaccine mandates really fucking sealed it for those people yeah

Yeah, and I think that like and what I don't know what the other get it through my head It's like it like I just don't see any other way to spin it sure okay pharmaceutical companies make money But the idea was you know people were dying and this is what we got mm-hmm And we're trying to you know, maybe help people not die of this. Yeah, whether you would or not is not the issue No, it's it's about the fact that like and also we as a culture have been through that not that we remember But we've been through this before it's not like this is the first time a pandemic is hit Yeah but because we don't know our history and we don't trust the history books even if we read them and because the because we

We love for some reason The coolest thing to be is somebody who knows nothing and asks questions. Like, I don't know anything, but I still have questions. So I think that allowing that person's voice to be as loud as the expert's voice, and that person's always going to be louder because the- Yeah, but the problem is, is I don't know anything, I have questions, and then someone goes, well, I'll show you what's really happening. Who the fuck knows what that guy's gonna show

It's just the internet. Well, it doesn't go a good point or somebody goes I'm a doctor in that thing you have questions about and here's all the answers and you go, but how would you know? Yeah, who told you? Yeah. Yeah, why are you smarter than me? Yeah, I mean we have your eyes There's a ray there's a rise and people sort of openly talking about how they don't believe the earth is round Yeah, that's like it's like really like people feel sort of openly talking about how they don't believe the earth is round. Yeah. It's like people feel more comfortable in talking about something like, well, how would you know?

Confidently stupid. Confidently stupid, yeah. And I think that because we sort of allowed this, we turn free speech into something that it's not, we feel as a society, we feel like somehow it's limiting somebody's free speech to say, stop saying things that aren't true. Yeah, or that's wrong Yeah, that's what you said is wrong

Yeah, and so we should we should turn your volume down because it's just wrong But there's no pushback because of this separate worlds. Yeah, you know, so like they their big argument is like, I don't know Well, that's the thing even if but if you put the person like I like, you know, I like, you know, this flat earth guy Rogan had some flat earth guy on was like told Neil deGrasse Tyson But if you put the person, like this Flat Earth guy, Rogan had some Flat Earth guy on, was like, told Neil deGrasse Tyson, I want you to talk to him and debate him. And Neil deGrasse Tyson was like, no, I'm not doing that. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Like, why would I waste my time? But somehow we, and then people go, he's afraid. All right, well, I think we're doomed. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna be good. He's afraid to engage with somebody All right. Well, I think I think we're doomed. Yeah He's afraid to To to engage with somebody who will never believe what he has to say, even though it's based on empirical evidence He's afraid of wasting his time for no good reason. Yeah, I'm afraid of like life is only long this long

And you know that guy Neil. Yeah, man. Oh a couple times. Yeah, he's not like he's not in my he's not my phone Not in your world. Not in my own. No, no, no, I'm a very small world. He's not in there I mean, you know, so what's the plan now? You're just touring I'm touring through the like we're adding more dates So I just actually added some southern dates in South Carolina, North Carolina With the hope of like eventually figured out Charleston Charleston. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah theater there. Yeah Charleston music hall. Yeah, I'm doing that. Oh, yeah. Oh cool yeah, yeah. That theater there? Yeah, the Charleston Music Hall. Yeah, I'm doing that. Oh yeah, oh cool.

I don't sound great there. We'll see, I mean it's very black, so I think I should do okay. Oh yeah, I'm not getting the blacks. I'll promote your Charleston show, you promote my San Diego show. I do okay in San Diego. Okay, yeah, I figured you would.

I didn't even know I did, it was crazy. I'll let people in Charleston know you're coming, because I have a hook up there. Yeah, I don't know, I don, it was crazy. I'll let people in Charleston know you're coming. I have a hook up there. I don't know, I don't have a lot of black fans. Well that's, and we'll work on that. I'm gonna actually invest some time into getting you some, because you would do well with the blacks. I think so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you keep it real. Yeah, I definitely keep it real. You keep it real? But I think for some blacks, it's a little too real. No, no, I think that, but the blacks in Charleston are cosmopolitan blacks. Oh, yeah? They would like your... Yeah, I've been doing a lot of red states, man.

I went to Lexington, Kentucky. I went to Louisville, Kentucky. I went to Asheville. That's not... Oh, yeah. But I went to Nashville. That was great. And the other places were great.

I think the most southern I did was Lexington. And, you know, it's again, even- You do Atlanta though, right? Yeah, I do. Okay. But no places in Florida, no- I don't go to Florida. Okay.

Fair enough. I just don't go. Okay. I don't know why, I mean, I don't go to Arkansas. Okay. You know, I don't- Arkansas, yeah. I haven't been to Alabama in a while.

You know, I don't tour, I'm not one of these guys that has to hit all the states. Yeah, you're not trying to hit all the markets. Yeah, and some people will travel to see me. And it's not because I'm afraid or anything else, I just don't want the stress of wondering why I'm not selling tickets in mobile. No, you'd rather book a bigger venue in Atlanta

and tell people in Alabama, you better drive. Sure, yeah, come up, yeah, or Florida. And they're used to that, they're used to that. Sure, yeah, come up, yeah, yeah. Or Florida. And they're used to that, they're used to that. I think so, I think they are. I mean, I could do smaller venues and I don't even mind doing that. But there's just the idea that like,

because no matter what city you go to for the most part, if it's a bigger town or city, you got like-minded people there. Yeah, no, it's, Jackson, Mississippi, which I did years ago, which I was worried about. It ended up being like I became the meetup for every progressive in the 500-mile area. It was like mostly about them meeting up with each other and like, we'll watch Kamau's show.

But it was like, I thought it was like, that's a great way to get people to come together. Sure, that's what I was saying at the top. Exactly, let's get some, let's start to flyer, write some flyers down. Sure. And yeah, so it was. I do this a bit sometimes on stage, I say,

I'm not an arena act Uh, and I say, uh, I think I could do one arena if it was centrally located and I can bus people in And I go I say buses leaving out of whole foods parking lots from there in these cities That's exactly yeah, we'll all go to one arena in nebraska exactly it'll work out but no so I'm doing that I have this my sub stack which is also called who's with me. I've been a lot of time in there I've sort of turned away from like for now from traditional showbiz and just sort of like doing what I have to sub stack do It's gonna great really really great. Yeah I was like I sort of put half effort into it last year and looked up I was like wait, this is actually doing really well. And so this year really like sort of pushing down

Yeah, you're right every week every week, you know, three times a week, three times a month basically, but yeah, every week. And I have somebody help me with it, so he helps me like proofread stuff. Oh good. I'm not saying the wrong thing. But yeah, I actually love it a lot, because it's like a way to keep my brain working

and bits come out of it. Yeah, of course. My latest one, I just was like, how many different insults can I think of for Steve Bannon? And it's like, you know, it's just sort of, so it's like a fun challenge Sure, sure and you can interact with the community and you own the audience in a way that you don't on these social media platforms Because they sign up for you and you have their email addresses

Yeah, yeah, yeah like this so it feels more it's a better way to spend your time online than yeah I'm a big you should come to sub stack. Let me I know a guy I write my thing every week But you all you gotta do is put it on subs that you don't have to change anything You just put it on subs like they're gonna be people who come to you who wouldn't know other than that You just put this just put it on sub stack. Oh, yeah, just put it on sub stack. Okay thing You don't do anything different just a couple pages. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't have some people Post like some people like tweet it like Twitter where she's a few long tweets

You know what I mean, but like you already you're writing a thing every week. Just put it on sub stack Yeah, like a lot of them. Yeah. Yeah. You got to work on that bit about the anti-woke black history. About the new exhibits at the at the African American Museum. Yeah, that's a good one. I'm glad I got a bit out of this. All right. Good seeing you.

Good seeing you. There you go, Kamau Bell. Again, you can find his tour dates at WKamauBell.com and he'll be in San Diego at Mic Drop Comedy this weekend. Hang out for a minute. Dining out is nice, but it can really break the bank. And while grocery shopping can save you some money, you've got to squeeze shopping and meal planning into your busy schedule. So that's why we're sponsored by Home Chef.

Home Chef conveniently delivers fresh ingredients and chef designed recipes to your doorstep. Users of leading meal kits have rated Home Chef number one in quality, convenience, value, taste, and recipe ease. Home Chef has over 30 options a week and serves a variety of dietary needs. Like for me, I know that there's always something I can get. This week they're offering things like garlic ginger tofu tacos or the chickpea rice pilaf bowl. Those are perfect for me, but there's a lot of meats and cheeses and fish for whatever

type of diet you keep. And for a limited time, Home Chef is offering WTF listeners 18 free meals plus free dessert for life. And of course, free shipping on your first box. Go to homechef.com slash WTF. That's homechef.com slash WTF for 18 free meals and free dessert for life. Stop trying to figure out what to make for dinner and open the door for Home Chef. Again, that's homechef.com slash WTF

and you must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan. You're not with Fizz. Switch today, conditions apply, details at fizz.ca. For more of me and Kamau, he's been on five other WTF episodes, some live ones, a couple short ones, ones from very early on, but he also came on three years ago to talk about the documentary he made, We Need to Talk About Cosby,

and go check that out too. I don't think that anybody in one sort of lump or one sort of context has heard any of those survivors go at length unless you were in the courtroom or wherever those things were. Or you were their lawyer. Yeah, a deposition of some kind. So, and I thought too that the natural thing,

the natural humanization that happens when you know you can sit there and watch somebody talk or tell a story and the nuances of those things yeah I found that to be it yeah I don't even want to use the word damning but but because this isn't a trial but it was sort of like there's no reason any of these women would make any of this shit up and especially there all a lot of this happened to them 30 40 years ago Like why would you still be riding on a lie like this? well

yeah, and a lot of them didn't even want to talk about it didn't want to talk and and to be fair like a lot of them were like The only reason they thought they would talk about it now is because they were like they they believed in they'd seen my work before And they're like well if anybody can pull this thing off It's you is what I would be like so they were like, I'm gonna trust you, which is why even though I often wanted to quit, I was like, I can't do it because these women have trusted me.

That's me and Kamau on episode 1308. You can listen to that for free on all podcast apps. To get every episode of WTF ad free, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted be a man, I'm gonna be a man. So So Boomer lives! Monkey La Fonda Cat Angels everywhere.