WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1626 - Jane Marie

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Jane Marie’s early life in Michigan didn’t necessarily put her on the glide path to the future world of podcasting, but an internship at This American Life gave her a crash course in the type of journalism that allowed her to create The Dream podcast. Jane talks with Marc about the subject matter of The Dream’s past seasons, including pyramid schemes, the wellness industry, and life coaching, and why these topics are truly representative of modern day America.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash WTF, offer code WTF. All right, let's do the show. Lock the gates! ["What the Fuck?" by Mark Maron plays over music playing over speakers.]

All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nick? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it.

How's it going? What's happening? Are you all right? I hope you're holding up. I got nothing but worry, man. I have nothing but worry in my head about all things. And you know, I'm very tired of this idea of Trump derangement syndrome. Oh, you mean the normal rational reaction by caring people who are

concerned about the future of democracy and the safety of themselves and their loved ones and people that are at a profound disadvantage, that that concern and empathy and the panic ensuing from the situation is somehow mentally inappropriate. Go fuck yourself if you think that. Hold on to your brain. It's not Trump Derangement Syndrome. It's the normal reaction to the collapse of everything we know and understand. And look, you know, you're up against people that really believe in this process. But just know that your heart's in the right place. Can you dig it? Okay. Durham, North Carolina. I'll be at the Carolina Theatre of Durham on Friday,

March 21st. Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm at the Knight Theatre on Saturday, March 22nd. And I'll be in Charleston, South Carolina at the Charleston Music Hall on Sunday, March 23rd. Then Skokie, Illinois. I'm coming to the North Shore Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, March 28th. And Joliet, Illinois. I'm at the Rialto Square Theater on Saturday, March 29th.

Then I'm coming to Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and tickets are now available for my special taping in Brooklyn, New York at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets, okay? Do that. Today I'm talking to Jane Marie. Now, she's, I've known her for years. She's a journalist and podcast creator. She used to work on This American

Life and then she launched her own podcast called The Dream. The first season focused on pyramid schemes and then she did seasons looking at the wellness industry and life coaches. The Dream is now in its fourth season with new episodes weekly. Ah yes, the future of medicine. The future of medicine, of treatment falls within the realms of the wellness industry. Yoga teachers, life coaches,

and guys with big ideas about what to eat. That's the future of treatment. Don't worry, you can beat a virus if you just kind of focus and breathe and and come from your core. Fight the virus from your core. Yeah, do that in a downward dog. Sure man, just jack yourself up on vitamin A. That'll knock out hundreds of years of scientific research into how to maintain health up against the environmental pollutants and the evolution of viral bodies. Yeah, just just think your way out of it. Take some

vitamins, suckers. Yeah, great, great dealing with the shittiest Kennedy. So yeah, I've been kind of obsessed with this idea. What do I fester about on a daily basis other than the future of the world? But it's just sort of like this notion of comedians who fought for free speech. And I'll say it again, it's always been free. Sometimes you get a little reaction, but sometimes that's what you're looking for. And if it's negative reaction, that doesn't mean you can't say it. So after all this kind of, you know, kind of whining about censorship, from the left,

quote unquote, I mean, what do we have, you know, you get these comics that compare themselves to Lenny Bruce, that it's the same fight that Lenny Bruce, that it's the same fight that Lenny Bruce was fighting. And it really isn't. You know, he was definitely fighting for free speech, but a lot of the stuff that he would use in terms of, you know, stereotypes was to diminish the stereotypes. That famous bit of him in front of an audience calling out all the different stereotypes of all the different people Was not to marginalize them more but to make people realize that there are you know names for all kinds of people and none

Of them have any meaning because we're all people it's sort of different than you know, the idea of focusing in on two or three stereotypes of marginal or or or minority groups, just because you get a little kick out of saying it. And it's just that I don't know how everything has been inverted, how the idea of Lenny Bruce has been absorbed by exactly the people that he would have criticized, or the idea of comedy in terms of being aggressive, like Bill Hicks has been appropriated by the people he would criticize, or people like Hunter S. Thompson or whatever.

The point is, the idea of speaking truth to power is exactly that. You speak truth to power, even if there's a risk to it, in order to get that truth out there. It seems we're entering a phase where the the the sort of angle of free speech is to speak power to truth. Because ideologically, so many of these people that are, you know, yammering about free speech is their freedom to speak louder

than those they are indicting with their free speech that they're insisting take a joke even though the language Marginalizes them even more and ideologically. There's a lot behind it in terms of wanting to Quell their voices to shut them up to not give them a position the entire politics of this nation at this point in time through the attack on DEI is about diminishing the voices of those who may not have them in the public sphere. So when you start calling them names because it feels good and then you feel free to do that in the particular room you're doing that in, All you're doing is insulating yourself in an ideology that is the current ideology of

this country. So in essence, you are speaking power to truth because you represent that ideology and there's really no courage in that, just divisiveness. It's not inclusive because inclusiveness has been deemed bad by this administration and by the current political climate. It's really about go fuck yourself, but wait, I'm just trying to shut the fuck up, take a joke. It's something I fester about.

It's definitely something I fester about along with soy milk and which boots I'm wearing or whether or not this belt is wrong. Oh there's always a lot going on in my mind and also just why hasn't this person texted me back? That's ongoing. That is ongoing. Hopefully that will resolve itself soon without me spiraling into a panic about where that person is. All right. Well that's where I'm at. How you doing? So look, Jane Marie, very interesting, interesting life, but also the work she's doing on The

Dream is, it's great. The Dream podcast is now in its fourth season with new episodes weekly. You can get it wherever you get podcasts. And this is me talking to Jay Marie. With Robinhood Gold, you can now enjoy the VIP treatment, receiving a 3% IRA match on retirement contributions. The privileges of the very privileged are no longer exclusive. With Robinhood Gold, your annual IRA contributions are boosted by 3% plus you also get 4% APY

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audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that will inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. You'll find titles on staying healthy including personal fitness, nutrition and relaxation, hear ways to improve your relationships both in your work and your personal life, or find out how to embark on a new career strategy. If you want to overhaul your financial life or hear smart talk about investing for your future, you'll find that too. Ultimately it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the

best resolution you can make for yourself and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30- day trial at audible.ca. ["The Time Is Now"] You and I have hung out before at different times, different points in your life. Yeah. I know you, kinda.

Yeah. I guess when I met you you were at this American life Is that one it was yeah, and then I met you again When you had a studio yeah here and like you were running a studio over here in Glendale I still have it. Oh you do at water Glendale. Yeah, yeah that water. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that's your place Yeah, and deep reduce shows out of there. Yeah lots of shows. I really I've done Recently I made Michelle Obama's book tour podcast, won a bunch of awards for that.

I worked with the Royals, we can get into that. You did? I'm the only person, there was like a recent article about them and I was the only person that was like, they're fine, whatever. Right. And it like went on the daily mail. Yeah. As like, what's up with this lady?

Right. Like why does she not see all the problems? And I was like, they're rich people who live in Montecito. Like, what are you guys expecting? Right. They were perfectly nice. It's very charming, she's so gorgeous. And you produced her show?

I produced, I was working there before they were figuring out what to do before they left Netflix. He had so many good ideas. You were working where? At their house in Montecito. Oh, so you went out there? Mm-hmm. You were the one that they chose

to sit there and shoot ideas at. Well, they had another team, and then that team couldn't get anything done, and then they were like, we need to bring in the big guns. Yeah, and you were the big gun? I was the big gun. Yeah, and you had a nice time out there in Montecito?

It was so sweet. They're so hot for each other, it's crazy. Like, they're like, you know when you see a couple next to each other and they're trying to be composed because there's some stranger in the room or whatever, they're like slapping each other, stop it, you know, like, quick. With the thing that you just did,

don't touch my leg like that, you know. It's, like, quick. With the thing that you just did. Don't touch my leg, you know. It's a weird thing, my, and I have no real sense of who they are, other, you know, as people. Mm-hmm. But, you know, maybe it's just because I'm a man, but like from the beginning, I was like, that guy's in trouble.

From, with her? Yeah. Oh, they're, he's so, he is so into her. Is he a sweet guy? He's so sweet. Oh, good. He's so sweet, he's flippin' weird. I mean, like look.

Well yeah, he's a prince. Oh, I put my foot in my mouth once. We were talking about some story ideas. Yeah. And everything, every person that he wanted to talk to for this one show we were maybe gonna work on. Yeah. What? It was. Yeah. What?

It was so bad. Good point. What'd you do? They all had dead moms. Yeah. And I said, well maybe it's cause they all have dead moms. And then I was like. Oops.

Oh no, I forgot, you're also someone with a dead mom. He was totally gracious about it. Yeah, he's very charming, he's a complete weirdo. Who is, you know, who is a prince? And also who, you know, the monarchy believes that they were like anointed by God. Right. So to grow up as a little, cute little boy

with a dead mom and then be the most famous person or one of the three most famous people Yeah, people are so fucking fascinated with them with the Royals like it's like it was I was actually in England on You know after college or maybe after high school For a month on some exchange program. I was there for the Lady Di Charles wedding. It was crazy. Whoa, you're old. The entire world was crazy. Yeah, I'm old. I remember watching that wedding in a mall in Tokyo,

live on a bunch of- Why were you there? How old were you? Seven. Okay, what were you doing in Tokyo? I think so. At seven. My dad's best friend lived there. In Tokyo?

And we went and visited. The one time? Did you go there a lot? I've been there a couple of times, but that was my first time. So, and the Michelle Obama thing, what was that? We went on a book tour and we recorded an episode in every city and put that out.

How'd that do? It was wonderful, like great numbers. How'd that do? It was wonderful. Like great numbers. Yeah. We won a bunch of awards and stuff. Oh, oh, but my most, okay. So I'm back doing the dream again. Yeah.

Which is like. Your thing. A whole story. Yeah. Um, that's my show. But most recently before the dream relaunched, um, we paired up with, up with Bradley Cooper's production company, Leah Pictures, and we had signed on to produce

someone else's show and then they dropped out at the last minute, but I was like, we already signed the contract and I need money. You know, so now I'm gonna save this. And I pulled this idea out of my ass and like, they went for it. Like, he was like, yeah, that sounds great. It is a non-narrated, fully like documentary style show

where we feature one woman kind of audio diary style. Okay. Each episode. So she kind of functions as the narrator. That's it, yeah. And it's like all kinds of weird ladies that I love. And it's called finally a show about women that isn't just a thinly veiled aspirational nightmare. Yeah. of weird ladies that I love. And it's called, finally, a show about women

that isn't just a thinly veiled aspirational nightmare. Yeah, it's a long title, but maybe you can make the, what do you call it, the letters? I'm not worried about that. I was just happy that they let us get away with it. It's great. And you recorded a bunch of those? Bunch of those.

And they're out? Yep. Wow, so you're a big mover and shaker in the podcast world. I don't know how to do anything else, Mark. That's not true, I know how to do a lot of stuff. But this is what, I feel, are you feeling, as far as podcasting goes, I keep thinking, I feel like a harpsichord player

around the time Pianos came out. I don't know, well, you might get that. chord player around the time pianos came out. I don't know. I might get that. Like I've spent 25 years honing this skill and making documentary audio projects. Yeah. And now everyone has these pianos

and I'm like so grateful anytime someone lets me still make my weird harpsichord music, you know? Like what what do you mean piano? Like, you're still audio only, right? Yeah. So that's what we do too. But Brendan and I... I mean, I don't do like chat shows, you know, like I... But also we're not doing video. I mean, I think the bigger shift was to video. Yeah. That's the piano, not just the content, right? Because there was a lot of podcasts around,

they came and went. But now people putting together full television studios, that becomes, that's the thing. And everyone can have one. And you're like, what? Why did I learn the harpsichord? This is like not an easy thing. I don't know, I think people, we've decided that people are kind of tiring of that and coming back to analog.

So I think we are OGs and also a little easier to deal with. We are certainly OGs, yes. But you started at, like how do you get here? I mean, I listen to a good chunk of the dream, at least the first season, and the way you weave your life in and out of these stories about the first season was multi-level marketing and then we go into the supplement racket. But through the course of these shows, you're able to kind of have an autobiographical personal engagement with the material and then also explore the material that is foundational to the world we live in now politically and in a corporate way.

Yeah. And also what's interesting to me is I had read and talked to Kurt Anderson about the book Fantasyland. And the very nature of what you're exploring in the dream is literally foundational to the beginning of this country. Right. That the idea that a bunch of religious whack jobs came over here to escape tyranny and perhaps persecution and then just created

this world of religious- Where they're tyrannizing and persecuting everyone? Sure, but also, but just the nature of preaching and snake oil is really the foundation of America. It is. And capitalism to some degree. Well, it's like making a dollar at any cost. I've interviewed-

For nothing. For nothing. I know, I interviewed, I remember in 2008, I did this piece with Adam Davidson for This American Life. Right after the crash in 2008, we went down to Wall Street and to this bar, Pound and Pence, I think was the name of it. Anyway, like a douchey.

It's one of those bars where I walk in and I cannot tell the difference between any of the men there. Like they all like. And you were living in New York. Yeah, I was living in New York at the time. And I got into a screaming match with these guys who were bankers who'd just gotten bailed out

and were like, you're stupid if this whole thing like ruined your life in any way. Like I figured out. Mentally. Just, yeah. Right. Like you're dumb. It's like the idea of Trump derangement syndrome.

If you're not trying to be a billionaire, you must be an idiot. And the reason I still have a job, even though really the truth was they got bailed out, but they said to me the reason I still have a job is because I'm smarter than you. Like I learned the system. I learned how to game the system.

Well, that's the system. It's all about winning means likes and money. Yep, yeah. And Ira Glass, my old boss, said to me, there was a story about our show in the New York Times last year. And he was like, I forget the exact quote, but it was something like,

Jane has this real, like, axe to grind or something. Like she feels like life is very unfair and that this country is very, like things are unfair. But she's funny about it. Yeah. Yeah. That's her saving grace.

She has a sense of humor about the end. He said that it was like he just feels, or she feels like the world's unjust. And I was like, well, no shit. But the argument is- Am I being manic right now? Like I feel like I'm all over the place. That's okay. And I was like, well, no shit. But the argument is- Am I being manic right now? No. I feel like I'm all over the place.

That's okay. Because I haven't seen you in so long, and we're being those old friends. Yeah, no, that's what we do here. What about this, what about this, what about this? Yeah, yeah. Okay. How's your kid?

Perfect. Good. I mean, literally, and maybe I should write a book about how to make a perfect child, because my child is perfect. And you're okay with Julian? No. Okay. He left.

I never wanna shit talk my daughter's father because, and I learned this when I was becoming a foster mom. I have an adult foster daughter. You do? Yeah. Yeah. But when I was in training to do all of that in classes and stuff, like there's very little

a father especially can do to make their child not want a connection. You know, very little. Oh, interesting, yeah. Yeah, like they can do the worst stuff you can imagine. And they're still craving. And the kid will still love their father. And I know that.

And I know, yeah, that fostering a relationship between them is way healthier for her than me coming on some podcast and like... Sure, trashing them. Not some, your podcast. Hopefully I'm raising a kid who's smart enough to figure everyone out. Yeah.

And also like... And it's not my job to step in the middle of that, especially with someone who is her other closest relative. Like of her is this person and I want her to love him Yeah, and know him and I want him to love her because yeah, that's very important for her health and and the whole thing's kind of a kind of a crap shoot in terms of like, you know, once you I guess I don't have kids because I Didn't you know stupid? Yeah, kind of and then, I guess, I don't have kids, because I just didn't. Because you're not stupid.

Yeah, kind of. I know, seriously. Yeah. I don't recommend it. Yeah, but they are their own people, and they will work stuff out. And I guess the trick is to make that struggle as easy as possible with the power that you can.

And also, don't protect them from the harsh parts. Like, self-confidence is built by like overcoming shittiness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? So I can't. That never worked for me. The, the, the, the- Do you want me to try right now?

The overcoming shittiness, giving me confidence never worked for me. It just made me realize- We can start today. We can start today. Made me realize that there's more shittiness coming. But you can stand up to it enough to have a home. Yes, I don't know how that all happened,

but I'm grateful. But I'm saying, you have a shelter, you have a job. Yes, yes, yes. You have pets. Well, how did you grow up? Whoa, okay, how did I grow up? Where do you wanna start? Well, I mean, I listened to like the incentive

or the inspiration for doing this show, this series, The Dream, was personal. Yeah. But how did that happen? So, my folks met when they were, my mom was in eighth grade and my daughter was in ninth grade and she got elected to student council and moving into high school she had to go over there

and take a class from the student council in ninth grade. And my mom was like a boobless dork. Like really short hair, buck teeth, flat chested. And this is where? Nerd. Michigan? Yeah, in the middle of nowhere. Like outside of Flint, Michigan in a rural area.

Small, small town. Yeah. And my dad was also on student council. Also a dork, but also like became like the superlative king in senior year. You know, like, smartest, hottest, greatest athlete, all of this stuff. My mom blossomed also later, but she wrote in her diary in eighth grade, I'm gonna marry Jeff.

You know, and they got married when she was 17. Okay. And moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan, where my dad played football for Beauchamp-Boechler. And then I was born a couple years later, and he was like, this is the lore. Who knows if our parents are ever telling us, you know what I mean? You know, you gotta wait till they get to mention

to fish out the truth. Seriously. It's coming soon. Well, no, it's not actually, because they're like not that old, but. I'm doing a whole bit about that. Are you? The poetry of kind of trying to excavate,

you know, information. What really happened. Yeah, things are going awry lately with both my parents where like they've rewritten everything at the moment. Oh really? So what's the lore? So I think we're gonna swing back. Well, so the lore is that my mom got pregnant

and she was working at a pizza place and my dad was playing football and just like going to school. And then he decided that if he was gonna have a kid, he didn't want to go into the NFL and like have his knees broken and not be able to take care of me. So then he went to his counselor and took a test and it said, bleep, bleep, lore, you should be a dentist.

A dentist. And then he became a dentist. Wow. But we lived in like subsidized housing and stuff that whole time. So he was a rural dentist? Yes, he still is. Yeah.

He was, I wanna say, I mean, they were children, but we lived in Ann Arbor until I was seven or something. And then we moved back to the country. And he's got a practice there now. And he has a practice there now. And he doesn't really make money. I mean, he makes money. He's doing okay.

Why, because he's a charitable guy? He is. Yeah, he does like the prison dentistry and he doesn't want people to be ripped off and he doesn't like yanking teeth, but he also doesn't wanna charge people for root canal. Oh yeah, good guy. He's a good guy.

Yeah, well that's nice, they're still together? Oh no. No, no, that's a whole other thing. No, no, when I was, so we lived there until I was 14 and then when around that time, oh my god, this is so, no, when I was 10 actually, that's when it started. My dad had an emotional affair with my aunt.

With your aunt, or your mom's sister. Stepsister. Stepsister. And then when he told my mom, my mom was like, oh, oh, that reminds me, I was not a virgin when we got married. Okay, so this is the deep lore. Yeah. Okay. So that was the one thing she had in her quill.

Yeah, and then both of them were like, do we both have bipolar disorder? Like what's going on now? Because we're like 30 years old and like everything's going awry. Yeah. And so eventually my mom left and we moved back to Ann Arbor and she went to school there

and then she started dating like this guy from a punk band that was like close to my age. And then my mom then had an affair with the court appointed psychologist for my parents divorce. Well smart people, interesting people. Sure. Yeah. And then they got married.

To the psychologist. Yeah. And you're like what 16 or something? Yeah. No, I was, it was, it went on for five years with like his wife barging into my mom's house and stuff. Like grabbing her husband. Full drama. Yeah.

A lot of stuff. But you know, I mean. Do you have sisters, brothers? I do. I'm the oldest. Of? Obviously. Of five now.

So there was me and my brother, two years younger. From your dad. From my mom and dad. Yeah. And then my sister, eight years younger than me from my mom and dad. Huh. And then my. They were trying to keep it going? They were. Yeah. And then my sister, eight years younger than me from my mom and dad. Huh. And then. They're trying to keep it going. They were.

Yeah. And then once the divorce happened, I have a couple steps from my mom's second marriage, who I love very much. And then my dad, okay. So my dad is young and we had that kind of like father daughter thing where we would go out and people would think we were on a date. Sure, how old is he?

He would be 66 or so. Wow. Yeah. Not much older than me. How old are you? 61. Yeah, you're, okay. In the zone.

But my dad was also like, even though he's a dentist and everything, he was also like a very early adopter of rap music and like he liked going out to shows and surfing and you know, like he was a fun person and I was his fun playmate, you know, growing up. But then when I became an adult and he wasn't remarried, it became like he would like show up at This American Life sometimes. Because he lived in Michigan, it was like a few at this American life sometimes. Cause he lived in Michigan. It was like a few hours away when we were in Chicago.

He'd show up and start hitting on Ira's wife and stuff. Anyway, and call me all the time and I would have to say like, get a life. So then I was working on this story. We were working on a story at the show about Russian brides and, um, doing fact checking around like the legit Russian bride websites. Yeah. I sent one to him and I was like, just get a move on here, dude.

And he found a Russian bride. Come on. They're still married. So this was like 20 years ago. Yeah. Really? And she's younger than me. Wow. She's also a dentist from Siberia.

It. It's crazy. I know. This is all. Have you done this show? No. I don't know. I do get into this vibe sometimes with my family's story because it is really remarkable. And I'm only telling you like 10% of these people. But the interesting thing about this particular part of the story as opposed to the part that you explore in the dream is that that this is a fairly irresponsible,

but relatively progressive story. You're not submerged in some sort of grievance-ridden, townie culture. I mean, these people seem like... It's only recently that any one of them have ever started looking at Fox News or something. Like, we don't, that's not the world that I'm from. It sounded like they were both,

not unlike my parents of a different generation, growing up with you. Yep, yes. Because they were so young when they had us. Which made me the parentified child. Yeah, of course, and also there's no boundaries. No boundaries. There's no, everything's a manipulation.

My mom borrowed my clothes for dates. Oh really? Yeah, like that kind of level. Sure. And again, my dad, we hung out, we went to raves in Detroit together. That's just crazy. It is crazy.

I mean, I guess it's fun. Well, until I got caught with cocaine and then he was like, maybe the rave thing isn't the best. For you? Yeah. So is that how you rebelled? You just got all fucked up and did your thing.

I actually moved out when I was 16 in Ann Arbor. Because it was too boundary-less and fucked up? I lived with my mom at the time, and it was, I really felt like, I did have this thing as a girl, and like... How do I say this? I was definitely sexualized by the men in my family. Like not assaulted or anything. There was often like talk of, well, you're gonna get knocked up. You know, like that kind of thing. And at a certain point, that just like got to be so much that I felt like,

well, if I'm being, if fingers are being pointed at me, meanwhile I'm a straight A student, like I'm doing everything I possibly can to like not screw up my life in that way. I was just like, why do I have these people, like why do I have bosses in my life who like don't understand me at all, think I'm irresponsible? I had a job since I was like 13, like I didn't.

So, so yeah, I moved out at 16. But then I got into drugs, which was a blast. But only for like a year. And I had to get rescued. You did? Yeah, by my dad. Oh really? Yeah.

Which drugs? Mostly cocaine. Yeah, yeah, so you're up a lot, running around. Getting like staph infections is basically what was happening. So not a great party. Not a great party. Letting older men like, bick my head and stuff. Like, it was not, it was raving in Detroit in the early 90s. So the dentist came to the rescue?

Dentist came to the rescue, took me home, said I have three rules, no boys overnight, call me every three days, and I forget what the third one was. Oh, no drugs in the house. So you cleaned up a little bit? I cleaned up a lot. Yeah. So how do you end up at This American Life?

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, the Lord, no, I'm kidding. No, so I graduate high school through the mail. Like a GED? I don't even know what it was exactly. But it's legit, you think? I still have nightmares about it.

Like, I'm not actually a high school graduate. You know, like, I have those dreams of like, I have three more credits I have to do. No, it was, there was this thing in the back of teen magazines that was like, cut this thing out and send it in and then we'll send you textbooks. And then it was proctored by the local high school, the tests. And so that's how I graduated.

And then I went to some local community colleges and my dad and I opened a cafe and a weird rundown bank. Okay. Wow,down bank. Okay. Wow. Full life. Yeah. And then I moved to Chicago and went to school there. And I was putting myself through school,

so I had like five jobs. Like I was working at a bar and somehow got into the honors college, which was very weird, and working there. And then I started working at my college radio station. And this was right when Pro Tools, okay guys, listen audience, this is where we're gonna get real inside baseball.

Yeah. The Pro Tools time. Yeah, whoa. Yeah, Pro Tools happened, and I went to a convention and met with the people from Pro Tools, and was like, can we have a system for our school? And they said, sure. So I learned Pro Tools.

And then one day I was driving home from Chicago to Michigan and I heard this radio story about a guy who was a tequila man, did you ever? Is it one of the Irish? It's John Hodgman's. It's Hodgman, okay, tequila man? Yeah, he was like friends from college with this guy that became a Tequila mascot. I don't know that one, yeah. And like traveled around letting people like take shots off of his body and stuff.

And he was like hired by resorts to be like the Tequila Man. Sure. But this, I never heard this show before. I knew a guy who was the dancing guy, but he didn't make a living at it. He was just like a local character who would show up at punk shows and dance. Good for everyone around him. Yeah, I don't know what happened to that guy. It wasn't looking like it was gonna go well.

What town? He was here, but I think he was elsewhere too. And I've seen it, like he ended up in Utah, I think. I don't know what happened to him. I'll text him after the show. I hope he's doing great. See how dancing man is faring. This was Tequila, Tequila and I.

And I heard this story and I was like, is this pirate rate? Like I was excited actually, because I was like, is this pirate rate? Did I just like accidentally stumble upon pirate radio? And my first thought was, I gotta get to know these people. And nothing I was doing in college or work.

I was a bartender, I was dating rappers, I was studying history, getting good grades. That was my life. Yeah. But I heard this story and I was like, I getting good grades. That was my life. Yeah. But I heard this story, and I was like, I must look into this. And then I listened all the way through the credits, and it said it was this American life.

So the next day, I went to school and got on the early internet and looked up the show, and they had an internship. OK. And I applied. And then I didn't hear anything at all, which is fine, because what was I expecting? Sure.

But then it turned out the hiring manager was late hiring a new intern, and I lived right down the street. I wasn't someone from an Ivy League school that had to move or anything. Yeah, right. I was just, plus I was like older because I went to school late. Yeah.

I was, I think 24 or something. Uh-huh. It was starly kind. She called me, we stayed on the phone for an hour and then I was like, okay, so did you want me to come in for an interview? And she was like, that was your interview. And I said, no, no, no.

I thought we were just talking. And then, and then she called me an hour later, her and Jonathan Goldstein, and they said, do you want to come be our intern? And I said, yes. And then, and then I just hit it off with everybody. I don't, I, since then, Ira has said very complimentary things about my skills, but like, I didn't go in there

knowing anything about that world really, or, you know, especially culturally the world. Like I, I don't, like I, again, as a high school dropout, I opted out of understanding these sorts of things, but like the schools that everybody there went to or like the world, the towns are from. It's not like these aren't party people. But they're also not poor people. And they're not rural people.

And they're not from the middle of nowhere in Michigan. Like, it was a bit of a culture shock for me to have, or like a learning curve basically, to know what people were talking about when they were talking about graduate school, or like going to journalism, like studying. I just went in there with technical skills, like I can cut tape really fast, like really fucking fast. The tops of the shows, like the beginning of the shows,

I used to cut those five minutes before air. Wow. Like I would record and I would mix it with the music like on the spot and we would go live on Fridays. That was thrilling. Yeah, the live radio is thrilling. It was so much fun. Yeah.

But yeah, I just had like, oh, he says he paid me for my taste and that I was a really natural editor, which I took as an offensive when he first said it to me. Like, oh, you're just like, you're not trained. It's hard not to feel like you're being condescended to. You know, I love him.

I think he's a genius. But I mean, but there is that moment sort of like, are you like- Are you fucking with me? Yeah. My relationship with Ira, I mean, outside of the interview I did with him, but, and seeing him socially here and there,

my greatest accomplishment, one of them on the podcast, was to do a live show in Brooklyn at Union, which, what's the big place out there? The Bell House. The Bell House. And on that panel I had Artie Lang and Ira. He loves Artie Lang. Yeah.

To me it was the greatest thing I'd ever achieved, was bringing those two together. Oh my gosh, I wish I would have been there. Yeah. No, he's like a, yeah, he's a Howard Stern freak. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. So then, so eventually you just start producing segments. Well, I was an intern.

Yeah. And then I was the intern again, because they needed, because it happened again. So I got to do two terms as an intern. And then at the end of my internship, and I was like producing things, but mostly learning. Yeah. And following everyone around and working working 70, 80 hours a week

and just staying until 11 o'clock at night and hope, keeping my fingers crossed that I would order dinner, because it was just a poor, they did, I will say they had a paid internship, they still do, that's the only reason I ever applied, because I didn't have the money. To just not do anything else.

Or to have an internship. I'm not, I. Gotta work. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. And I was still bartending. Right. But on the weekends, but I needed the cash. So that was great that I got like $2,000 a month or something.

Sure. But I lived in Chicago. It was like 500 for my rent and I lived. Yeah. But I worked a lot of hours and at the end of my internship Ira was like, all right kiddo, he still calls me kiddo. Yeah. that I worked a lot of hours. And at the end of my internship, Ira was like, all right, kiddo, he still calls me kiddo. Yeah.

What do you wanna do? And I was like, I wanna work here. And he was like, I'm not hiring. And I was like, you will be eventually. And he was like, maybe not. Why don't you wanna go to like all things? I could like put a word in for you on all these places. And I was like, no, I'm fine.

I'll just hang out here. Wait? Yeah. So I kept bartending. I'll just hang out here. Yeah. So I kept bartending, I kept volunteering at the studio. Like at WBZ at the radio station and doing some like really sketchy actually, stringer work. A stringer is like someone that goes out

with a tape recorder to record someone on the other end of a phone interview. I did some stuff with like recently released death row inmates and things like that in my car. Right. But eventually someone got pregnant and needed to go on maternity leave. Yeah.

And you got in. And I got stuck right in there. But that's interesting. So this whole arc of this is you're getting an education in a specific type of journalism. Yeah, yes, exactly. And I love that type of journalism. I mean, I learned directly from the best person at it.

Yeah. As far as like audio journalism goes, I got very lucky that I sat right next to that person for 10 years. Yeah. You know? And he even told me when I was an intern, like at the very beginning, he said like, if you wanna learn how to do this stuff, you gotta find the things that you like,

like the people that you like who are doing this, and just copy them. Right. Until you figure out what your thing is. Yeah. I listen to my old pieces, oh my God, I sound like so bad. So inept.

My scripts are horrible. I sound like I'm trying to be on This American Life. But I'm already working there. Well, there is a tone to it. Yeah, it's very flat. Yeah, is that taught? Yes, yeah. I can teach it to you if you wanna get a script up.

I can manufacture it. I think I can get it. Well, you're doing 25% less mark right now. You just lock it down a little bit flatter. Okay, so what happens next? I don't think you're thinking about what you're saying, so can we start that one again? Sure.

I want you to think about the words. Okay, okay. Oh, well that's interesting. So where do you go from there? You're almost there. Just... But we know you're a funny person, so we have to inject a little bit of that,

but keep it flat. Okay, okay. Okay? Okay, so that's a great story. But I mean, what happens next? Boom! You're hired, where's the check? No, I spent 10 years doing that with people.

But so all this kind of leads into, I mean, I think the dream is you really doing it. Yeah. Like this must be your masterwork at this point, this series in terms of the approach and how you absorbed it and then, you know, learned how to make it your own? No, that type of journalism is awesome.

Yeah. And that's what I wanna do. I wanna just be myself without inserting myself in every single part of the story. I also don't wanna be navel-gazy all the time. Like, I wanna be able to tell personal parts of the story without- And engage people.

Yeah, and engage people. So what- As a normal person. That's another thing that happens in the audio documentary world is people come in to tell stories and you're just like, I cannot relate to this person at all. That's when I just keep interjecting

until I get them around to something that I can relate. That's my style. It's not really an MPR approach. I like your style. Well, thank you. So what drives you to do this thing? What about this multi-level marketing scam? That's the first season that we did.

I think- No, I know, but that was the entry point. Yeah. You made a decision. Yeah. Are you telling me you had the full arc of all the seasons? No, no, no, no, no. No.

So I got a call from Stitcher saying, from Laura Mayer saying, we want to make a show about MLMs. And then I kept her on the phone forever. And I was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, everyone I know. What do you think compelled her to do that? Just the thing we were all experiencing at that time of like Facebook posts from our friends

trying to sell stuff. Okay, 2018, 20. It was like a very, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like 2017, 2018. Sure. And so we just started talking about it and talking about it.

And I was like, oh, my grandma did it. My great grandma did it, blah, blah, blah. I said, are you sure I just should produce? Like, can I, who's hosting this? They were like, we don't know yet. I was like, oh, I'm available to just talk about my family and myself and look into this. And it was a fascinating world.

And then it opened the show up to this whole like grand scale institutional American style, trickery essentially is what the show's about. But what's interesting about the arc at least of that first season is whether it was trickery or not, there was a good side to it. Oh my God. On a community level.

Yes, my family is all involved. I grew up going to Avon parties, Tupperware parties. Yeah. Like I still have, one of my friends that was on the show who sells bags, although that company just shuttered and now she's selling, I think she's selling diet shakes. Anyway, like I went to a couple of her parties for the reporting and it was so fun.

And if I was in Owasso still, or Corona, or like any of that part of Michigan, I don't, maybe I would, I don't know that I wouldn't be doing something like selling makeup to my friends. It's fun. But the implications and the sort of foundation of the racket, it's really like, you know,

we're, this is the final turn of that particular American way of thinking with this presidency and fascism. Like fascism in its most basic form is a huge grift. It's this faux meritocracy that I have a big problem with, which is being sold to people by the people stealing the money from people who think this is a meritocracy. Right. You know, it's not. Yeah.

It's like Donald Trump is definitely not the top one percent smartest or most capable person. No, he likes making money for nothing. He's running a, it's like a giant protection racket now. But he's telling you and everyone else, he's telling the whole world right now, like what this Doge thing is. No, just that we're our best and brightest, like what this Doge thing is. How genius he is.

No, just that we're our best and brightest. We only want our best and brightest. And whitest. But if it weren't for what you were talking about in your book and also in the podcast, if it weren't for the evolution of this, people might not have believed it. But they've been believing this bullshit forever. Yes. Because it sounds great. Of course, like Nate, you know, I watched an old clip in Nate's about why he voted for

Trump, basically. Oh, yeah. You know, which was like, well, you know, he's talking about winning. I want to win. No, I mean, I do too. I didn't vote for Trump, but we all want to win. Right. And if the story is, which is the story of America, that like, those who try hardest, you know, keep your nose to the grindstone. It's also so like the bootstrap thinking thing. I spent a lot of time thinking about this, which I think is just one of the most racist

ideas out there. It came out after, it came like about after the Civil War, where it was just like a way for white people to tell black people that it's on them now. And now it's like on everybody. Yeah, now it's on everybody, right. But it was this idea of like, we let you go free, now it's all on you. Right. You know, there's no social safety nets

and we're not gonna help you do anything, you gotta just pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Right. Even though we didn't let you have any. No boots. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And now it's literally everybody. And there are, but there's been studies done,

we talked about this on the show, about like personality types when it comes to this sort of thing. There are personalities who look at the potential of making money on a pyramid scheme or something else. Yeah. And then they see that it's 0.1% of people and that's also just making money in America. And they go, oh, that sounds stupid.

I'm not, how would I ever, there's no chance. And then there's other people that are like, well, if anyone can do it with me. Right, interesting. And sometimes they're selling nothing but an idea. Yeah. And so the second season nothing but an idea. Yeah. And so the second season was all about the health supplement. Wellness and supplements and all of that, yeah.

Because again, this is prophetic. Yeah. But it's very interesting, the mindset of it, that a person can easily turn on science and medicine because of suspicion and the amount of money it may cost. And then just throw all of their belief into stuff science and medicine because of suspicion and the amount of money it may cost, and then just throw all of their belief into stuff that is proven to be useless or not effective or just it's, I don't quite understand it though, I take vitamins.

I get it on a fundamental level, like why you wouldn't want to get vaccinated. I'm not sure I quite understand it, but I know myself, like, well, I should be able to do that, fight that on my own. Yeah. We just did an episode about RFK Jr. and his thoughts about vaccines and all that stuff. For the dream? Yeah. And we did for, in the wellness season too,

we did an episode about this. I can say just coming from like poor people, I mean, health care is expensive. Right. And vitamins are also expensive, but not as expensive. And also you feel like you have more control over vitamins. It's not like what is this and the doc can't explain it to you. Right, well it's also there's no elitist person

in the middle of you and the vitamin. Yeah, it's just your neighbor. Exactly, but that really means a lot to people. And even within my family, there's talk sometimes about my dad being like, because he has like a quote unquote medical degree, like he's a dentist. Oh, I see, yeah.

And so, you know, he thinks he knows everything, like that kind of thinking, which you hear from Trump and all of his buddies all the time. Like, well, what makes you so smart? Yeah. Okay, like science, studies, like doing the scientific method,

whatever. And we have let people down in the healthcare world a lot in this country in particular. And I totally get the impulse to like want to find some alternative to, you know, waiting in line at Cedars for some asshole to come in and tell you there's nothing that can be done. Right. And that we're not going to do the next test because you don't have the right insurance.

I can understand that completely. Right. Where I get bothered is just that there is science out there, you know? Like. Yeah. Some things don't work. Some things don't work. Yeah.

And some, and also some, in some places, well, not in you. Some industries are not regulated at all. Like, there's no regulation on vitamins and supplements. Like, none. There's no, you don't have to get anything tested by the FDA. There doesn't have to be consistency between bottles. And that type of pitch is the same as the MLM thing.

Exactly. Like, you can be your own boss, you can set your own hours. Why do you have this boss above you? He thinks he knows everything. We have a better way, we have a shortcut. We have a shortcut to money, we have a shortcut to. Right, but they're also on the take from the company that's making the product, right? They don't have a piece of that.

No. It all tracks back up to these people that are doing nothing, but pulling money in from from people who spend what maybe a month to six months in the maybe a year Trying money right of their own of their own to do this thing That's not possible and an endless line of people behind them and one of the women that I interviewed described it as a And she she's one of the higher-ups out of one of these companies. Yeah, but she's like well We have a bathtub with the drain open. Sure.

We're just, people are gonna filter through this thing really, really quickly. And I'm like, oh, so you really aren't selling anything. Like you're only selling the idea of selling something. Right. Yeah. How did Betsy DeVos get so huge? It's so huge in what way, like get appointed by Trump? No, but I mean, who like? So huge in what way?

Like get appointed by Trump? No, but I mean, like how did Amway make so much fucking money? Well, so they started their company without a product at all. They were vitamin salesmen. They were a lot of different things. They had like a airline and all this nonsense. They were besties from high school

that also would like charge people to- Who was? To Van Andel and DeVos. Yeah. Back in the, back in the day in Grand Rapids. Um, but they worked for this vitamin company doing like door-to-door sales and then decided that they were going to start their own company

like that, but they didn't have a product. Yeah. And, um, so they built the whole framework for what Amway was going to look like in terms of quote unquote hiring and recruiting and all of those things. You can be a distributor. Yeah. And then they went and acquired a bar soap company.

Yeah. Right. I think it was called Frisk or something like that. So it's all hype. It's all hype. It's all- And they made a fortune. Oh my God.

I remember some guy talked me into an Amway starter kit. No. No, when I was in high school. Yeah. Well, some guy talked me into an Amway starter kit. No. No, when I was in high school. Yeah, well that's the other thing. There's no rules. You don't have to be an adult or have a degree or anything. It was another high school student. That's what's just so great about this opportunity, Mark.

Anyone can do it. And you just sign up, you get this package, you get a few products, and I tried to sell two things and it didn't work out and I was out. Yeah, did you do cutco after that? No, I didn't do anything. I'm not driven that way. But when you're in high school,

the guys are like, yeah, try it. And I'm thought like, all right. And then you just like, if you don't have that kind of mindset, it's not gonna stick. I don't remember doing it. I think I sold some cleaner to my friend's mom and that was the end of it.

I talk about this in the book, I fell for one once. It's not an MLM exactly, but it was like infomercial scam where they sold tapes or CDs and books about how to put Chinese manufactured chachkis in the back of magazines. And I was like, that sounds like so much fun.

Yeah, I remember when I was in high school, there was a couple of moments where I'm like, this is the way to do it. Yeah. But like, I didn't have the wherewithal, I didn't have the ambition. No. I just thought like, you know, let's do it,

and then somebody talk you out of it. Yeah. If you're smart, you're like, oh yeah, that makes sense. I'm not gonna do it. Well, also just like, if you're a business person, just make your own business, like what? Yeah, but like, you gotta also find something you believe in. I don't think that ambition is a point of view.

It is its own thing and you can apply it to whatever, but it seems like now it is sort of a point of view. Yeah, like I am ambitious, I am empowered. I'm gonna figure it out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No matter what, it doesn't matter what it is. Virtuous, quote unquote, personality trait. What was the third season about?

Life coaching. Oh my God. I'm sorry. I apologize. Oh my God. Yeah, it was about life coaching, which was like a real trip. But it's just so sad, man. It's like so sad that like this idea of suckers

is that we're all kind of half suckers. Yeah. And you have to be vigilant. I married a man. I know. I actually married two. Like I had all the hope in the world about this thing that was clearly if I read it

even one piece of paper about this. About what, marriage? To like a Cishet, supposedly male, you know? Yeah. What was I think like that? I did it twice. I did it twice. That's how hopeful I was at achieving a certain version

of the American dream. Yeah, sure. Oopsie daisy, but like, this is our folklore. Well, I always think of that, the scene at the end of Wolf of Wall Street, when that guy comes back and Scorsese really focuses on that audience of people, and they really played it well, that bunch of extras.

Just that sort of like, tell us what we need to do to be you, or to have what you have. I feel like there's cracks forming most recently. I mean, I've been complaining about the one presenters for years now, but I do feel like we're kind of seeing finally out loud these multi, multi, multi, billion and trillionaires wealth hoarding in a way that there's no shame at all left in it. And like I said- in trillionaires, wealth hoarding in a way

that there's no shame at all left in it. And like I said. And it becomes aspirational to a lot of people. That's what I was saying, that there's people that earlier there's been those studies about people, they look at that and go, I could be an Elon. I could be a Jeff Bezos, like, or I could be a loser who doesn't care about that sort of thing. And again, when I've spoken to very wealthy people,

they don't understand why I don't want to be a billionaire. Like, there's no, they can't comprehend why I wouldn't want to hoard all of my neighbor's wealth. And I'm like, I'm too lazy for that, first of all. But I've just always wanted to be. Like I just don't want to. But I just always wanted to be okay. I just want to be fine. And I want to be nice. And I want to help people.

And I want to raise a normal person. Oh, you're so woke. Pfft. That's what that was all about. I do listen to almost exclusively like rap music. So I'm not that woke. No, but I mean, that was the, that was, that was the weak point,

that was the Achilles heel of being able to render it all down to something that sounded bad. But you know, because when you really, if you are a person that believes in liberal democracy or empathy or helping people or that people who need help should get help, you know, those are decent things. And somehow through the word of woke, it became an attack word. Yeah.

It's kind of fucking amazing. But it goes right into this sort of like, why wouldn't you want a billion dollars? Yeah. What's wrong with you? What are you an idiot? Like, and also that idea of wanting a billion dollars is like what this whole place was built onto, you know? And having it come through nepotism and- Right.

So what is the, like, well, life coaching, it's just so hilarious in terms, for me- It's so funny. That like, you know, like you can glean things from people that have a handle on things that you might not and just move through it. So this was a point of, this was something I brought up early in that season

was like, I want, if I'm gonna have a life coach that isn't like a certified therapist or something, or a doctor, I want their life to be perfect. Like I want it to be- But perfect to you. To me, yeah. I want it, but that doesn't exist. So yeah, that season was really interesting.

Because my brother, who is kind of moved through a lot of different jobs and is very sort of hyper self-aware and very sort of always has been kind of a searcher and really prone to systems that offer self-actualization, but struggles. And I remember there was a brief period there where he was like, and he was just trying to keep his own fucking life together. He's like, I'm looking into getting into life coaching.

We did a whole episode about how many unemployed life coaches there are, like life coaches that have been recently fired from their jobs, and they're like, no, what I'm gonna do, teach other people how to get jobs. Right. Yeah. Because it's a racket,

and even if they can't apply it to themselves, they can get a pitch going that is uplifting. For them, too. Though, you know, it's like validating for themselves. Like, it's like, you're saying, I have purpose, I have some expertise. Well, that might be the okay thing about it, I guess. That's what I could see in it when I was talking to people.

Like, yeah, it was affirming for the life coach themselves to say, I have something to offer the world. Because the world, the way it's set up, which we've been talking about, isn't being kind to very many people. And so- Or valuing their gifts, you know? Right.

Everything's getting so distorted in terms of what we care about, you know? We don't care about science anymore, like, as of this last month. There's no more science. There's no more value in, like, you know, having capable, intelligent people running the country. There's no more value in taking care of one another. And so it is, I mean, becoming a life coach is a way to say, I have a gift to share with the world.

That's what my great-grandma did when she was selling Avon. Like, she felt like I'm showing, I'm being part of my community, and I'm like helping women feel good about themselves. Like, and that's, I think that's just as important as what the sucker is getting out of it. Sure. You know?

Yeah, well, it's interesting that, you know, in one of the seasons, there was, seasons there was two kinds of, they weren't necessarily suckers, but people that came to a realization about what they were involved in. Yeah. And one was sort of like, yeah, I got out and, you know, oh well, you know, fuck the suckers on some level. I don't do it anymore.

Yeah. But it wasn't really empathetic. And then there was the other guy that was like, oh my God, what am I involved with? Yeah. So what's this new season about? Anything I want because I bought the show away from the giant corporations that were run by people who've never done anything in journalism or podcasting. Yeah.

So it's weekly now, it's not seasonal. Okay. We're just, I'm doing interviews and reporting on whatever I feel like. What have some of that been? Well, today's episode was about a case where a woman was, a young woman was put on a suicide hold, arrested, and taken to a hospital for considering having an abortion. That's happening.

Like, thinking about having an abortion. So who ratted her out? Her former friends that she had been a pro-life activist with when she was 15 years old. Okay. Called the, went to the courthouse, called the cops, got her arrested. What state?

North Carolina. I just finished producing a show about abortion called Outlawed that's all about like what abortion actually is and why it's so wild that it's illegal. Because it's not about birth control. That's a whole racist, classist argument. But rich white ladies are always going to have abortions. Because they're going to have the doctor that tells them that their kid doesn't have a brain. At six months pregnant. Because they can going to have the doctor that tells them that their kid doesn't have a brain at six months pregnant.

Because they can afford that. You know what I mean? But that's the actual sequence of events that happens often. But that's also another thing that's sort of the blind spot of people who are aspiring to be billionaires or whatever is that their conditions in their life are of a kind where they don't have any entitlement at all, right? They're just struggling. And rich people are always gonna be able

to get whatever they need somehow. Well, because they deserve it. Well, I mean- That's what they, you know what I mean? That's what they believe though, is that they, you know, why wouldn't they have the very best doctors? They need to keep their kind alive. Right, well, I get that. But I guess like I'm always sort of stuck Why wouldn't they have the very best doctors? They need to keep their kind alive. Right. Their people.

No, I get that. But I guess I'm always sort of stuck on the profound lack of empathy in any way for the people that they're taking advantage of. I don't quite. I don't get it either. I can't make that leap to understand that part of the human. I spoke about it today on this episode. That's how I closed the episode.

I was just like, when you let your politics like completely impact and erase your morals, what are you even doing? Like, why do you have an idea about who should be president if you, if, if like the, at the end of the day, you don't care if children are getting hurt. Right. Like actual alive children, you know?

Well, I think what happens, the only analogy I get is that like I know when I was doing morning radio that you get into a sort of manic brain and you start churning out your version of talking points or your version of your beliefs, but there's a mania to it. And I think because of technology and because of, you know, so many people creating content, that that mania, which is not what, it does not possess empathy really. It's really just about, you know, intensity and getting out whatever your beliefs are,

whether they're even actually yours. But that zone of engagement Makes no real room for other people right, you know until you know until you have to talk with other people you but so If you're living in that if you're isolated and just churning that that's coming in and that's going out You're you're literally, you know putting some sort of wall Between you and and having actual human feelings. Well, you're commodifying yourself. Well, there's that.

But there's also- A content creator or whatever. Sure, but I'm just talking about that weird mania of opinion that doesn't even, is not thoughtful. It's just sort of attack or intensity. And if you live in that, how are you gonna be a functioning human? I go on TikTok and sell one of those slicer things,

the cheese grinder. Sure, sure. Those are the only things I almost buy. Is like bullshit kitchen stuff. So like that would be a good thing just to clip on my faucet for the sponge. For real. Like the ideological thing I don't get,

but like, oh my God, so you can just squeeze the lemon without it, you know, like. But that is what folks are doing, you know? And they're thinking my outrage and my creating conflict all over the place is creating engagement, engagement is creating opportunities to make money. I'm so not in that loop. Oh, I thought you were gonna say old.

No, I'm just not, like, I don't feed in that loop. Oh, I thought you were gonna say old. No, I'm just not. I don't feed on that stuff. I've never been about money, which is my shortcoming, but also just- You're doing fine. Well, yeah. You're doing fine. It worked out.

Yeah. But it was never, like, my drive has never been to make money. It's been to understand and communicate. Same, and I want to have a, I mean, and I don't mind having a job. Like, I don't mind working. I like working. I don't mind working and I want to have a, I mean, and I don't mind having a job. Like I don't mind working. I like working.

I don't mind working if I want to, if I can find value in the work other than money, because that's not enough for me. Well, that's why I like bartending. Sure. I loved bartending. I was really good at it. You're with the people.

Yeah, I'm talking to people. You're watching people like, you know, have a good time or destroy their lives. You get the full arc. And then I get to show off how I can like do one thing with my foot and one thing with my, you Yeah, yeah, yeah, performative, yeah. Yeah, it was fun. What are some of the other episodes this season?

So this season we also did some follow-ups about the former people that were on about MLMs, folks who had been scammed. I'm talking to this woman, Dory, tomorrow, who she's the best kind of maniac. She believes that she's solved what Stonehenge was for. Oh sure. And the Voynich manuscript.

Yeah. So. I'm glad they're out there doing their own research. I know. We're gonna answer all the questions. She's really smart though. I think she has a great idea, like how I would sum up the research she's done.

And she's a lay person, like she's a historian or anything, or an archeologist. But I think she gives credit to how smart people have been since people have been people, instead of being like, oh, it must've been hocus pocus and weird stuff. She was like, no, I think it was a meat processing plant.

Literally. Oh yeah? Yeah, and she has drawings and everything of like, this is how it worked. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, it's really good. So kind of whatever I'm curious about. But your curiosity is in the spectrum

of revealing certain truths that are simple and subversive somehow in a way now. Weirdly. Yeah. Like it's weird that they are at all. But I like- They're only gonna become more so. I like talking about the, we live in a fantasy. Yeah.

And I'm not talking about like online or something, but we live in this pretend world that we were all raised in like I was raised to believe if I worked hard and put effort in and whatever, like my life would be okay. I could maybe have a home that I own or a child who isn't fucked up. Or, you know, and all it really took was my mindset. Like me putting my mind towards something.

And the stories that I'm really drawn to are where that shows not to be true at all. Like that the powers that be have a lot more influence on what happens to each and every one of us. Yeah. And I know the Stonehenge thing seems like an outlier, but I do think it's important to recognize, like, people have always been...

s-s-smart and thoughtful and, like... Trying to figure something out that will sustain either them or a community. Exactly. And so that interests me. The thing that I, I always have had an easier time saying what I'm not into, and that's also an IRA thing. He's like, if you can't figure out what you really wanna do, you can totally, totally figure out

what you don't wanna do. And I know that I don't wanna do true crime, I don't wanna talk exclusively about cults, although I have a few times. And this season we did get into one of these AA cults. Yeah, well tell me about that one. It's called Midtown. Just, it's kind of your typical sex cult, but the AA.

But it's an offshoot of AA. We used to deal, we had a reckoning with one of those cults once when I was in New York AA. There was this infusion of Bay Area weirdos that were called, I think they called them, it was called, I can't remember, they had a name for it. But it was definitely a cult within the cult. And generally AA distances themselves from that shit pretty quickly. Just by community reaction.

Yeah, by a bunch of normal people sitting in a room and being like, that's weird. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and that was kind of interesting that it worked like that. It's like, you're not doing the thing. That's how the internet used to work,

and I miss it so much. Like when I was a lady blogger, when I was working at the Hairpin and Jezebel and stuff, like our internet community, like people talking in the comments and stuff, it wasn it so much. Like when I was a lady blogger, when I was working at the Hairpin in Jezebel and stuff, like our internet community, like people talking in the comments and stuff, it wasn't so nasty, like, you know, or contentious all the time. People kind of sorted themselves out

and kicked out the jerks. Well, mail trolls ruined the internet. Yeah, yeah. But we, you know, just engaging and being like, ugh, this is not, we don't want hair. That still happens, I think, on Reddit threads and stuff. Sometimes, yeah. Where they're like, no, you're crazy, and don't want to hear it. That still happens, I think, on Reddit threads and stuff. Sometimes, yeah. Where they're like, no, you're crazy,

and why are you posting this? Yeah, yeah. But no, but the cult thing, there are so many podcasts about cults now. There's more podcasts about cults than there are cults. Yeah, sure. So I know I don't really wanna do that full-time. Right.

I really want to, I mean, my goal really is to try to figure out if I can make money doing a thing I'm good at because I have been told my entire adult life that I cannot. Mostly because of my vagina and my boobs. Yeah. Like we can't sell ads. Right.

On a podcast hosted by a woman. Not a good podcast. But also I imagine part of it was also being taught that this type of work is a pipe dream. And that there's more secure avenues. Absolutely, absolutely. And I don't have a safety net. So I don't get to take the risks that a lot of people

in my industry do. So when someone comes to me with a contract and it's like the lowest amount of money, I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I have poor kid brain, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm just like, oh, you want to pay me half of what I'm worth? That sounds great. Yeah, yeah. Can I work twice as much? It's something, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I do that every time. And so I have to get out of that habit. But this new format for the show is really kind of an experiment of like, can I just be myself and use my skills and be good at mixing and editing and talking to people? And exploring these ideas. Yeah, yeah. And the book, so this is basically based

on the first three seasons? There's the first season, it's all MLM. This is kind of like a character study of the people that it's all MLM. This is kind of a character study of the people that start and promote MLMs. So it's a lot about what kind of a person wants to start MLM. Oh, interesting. Well, I'm glad you brought it to me. Yeah, you're gonna like it, I think.

And then there's a lot of weird stuff about my life and childhood and everything. A little bit more-ish. A little bit, here and there. Because when you write a book, they're like, zhuzh it up with more Jane. People want more Jane. Yeah.

Are you sure? I know. Yeah, I mean, some guy just made a documentary about me that took four years and it's premiering at Sundance. I'm like, how much of me do people really want? Isn't that a weird thing? I'm, this is like, this last like six months

is the first time I've ever thought about that. Cause I didn't think I was part of the story really. You know, or like the, but that parasocial desire. I don't keep up with it enough to like understand that that's what's happening, but the more people that listen to my show or read things I've done, it is happening, like they really are feeling. Yeah, it's a little scary sometimes.

It is scary. Depending on what your boundaries are like. Yeah, I have pretty strict boundaries, but I also, look, I'm lonely. Yeah, but yeah, and there's also the point, there's that part of you that's sort of like, well, they do kind of know me. They do.

You know, I mean, I'm putting myself up. I know the parts I told them, and they were fine with that, so I'll- Sure. But I also get like so much hate and stuff. It's just funny. The hate that the chicks get on. That's crazy, dude.

Her voice is so annoying. It's crazy. I can't stand her laugh. It's crazy. Why does she think she's so smart? We had a comment board on WTF back in the day and we took it down because any female guests would just get just garbage.

Yeah. And it's like, again, it's one of those things like, I don't get it. What is wrong with these dudes? I don't like, I mean, I can sort of... They're nagging everyone in the world. They think that that's how it works. I guess, but there's also this disconnect, which is scary, that most people don't get to fuck.

And even with dating apps. But there's just this part of me where I can try to empathize, or not necessarily empathize, but at least kind of because of my boundaryless nature, engage with in almost a symbiotic way, an immediately codependent way, enough to understand kind of where they're coming from.

Like I can understand a lot of what's going on today because there's part of me that it speaks to and I manage that part because that's the bad part. And we all have those parts. But there are certain behaviors where I'm like, what the fuck? Her A's are so flat. What the fuck is wrong with that person? That person wrote that on purpose. Yeah.

I mean, what is that? I don't, I think it's, well, it is mostly men. Yeah, I know. I think, I saw this one, because I have a daughter, and she was little, and this came actually out of the mouths of a couple of people you know. Yeah. When like my kid would get clocked in the head by a giant John Deere toy by a little boy. Yeah.

And the dads would be like, boys will be boys, you know, like that kind of thing. Right. Lots of boys will be boys stuff. Yeah. To date, like still. Yeah. Like a couple of years ago,

no one would let her play soccer on the playground. And she's not like wearing a dress or anything like, you know. Right, sure. years ago, no one would let her play soccer on the playground. And she's not wearing a dress or anything. She's good at soccer. But parents are still doing that to these little ones. I mean, they're eight years old and they're being taught by their moms and dads that, well, what are we going to do? And they put their hands up like, they're just probably gonna rape somebody.

Yeah, kinda. I mean, seriously. That's where this is going. And that was really the intention. It's a boy. Of, you know, DEI was to solve some of these problems on a societal level. Yeah. And now all that shit's gone.

But you're saying the word problems as if everyone agrees on what those problems are. No, I know. I get that. And we don't. No. We don't anymore. Some people really, that's the thing.

Some people think that, I had my girlfriend in high school, like my literal girlfriend in high school, her father wrote a book when we were in high school called The Natural History of Rape. Like, you know, see, it's just something that happens. And yeah. called the natural history of rape. Like, you see, it's just something that happens. Yeah, and like, to confront that at 16 years old, that like, this is what this person is actually really interested in,

is like, how does it just keep happening? Yeah. You know, and like, what can we do about it? Nothing, it's just nature. Yeah. And any initiatives like DEI to change any of this stuff. Or just civilization. Civilization.

Right, but civilization was also built on that sort of thing. No, I get stuff. Or just civilization. Civilization. Right, but civilization was also built on that sort of thing. No, I get it. Our quote unquote civilization, right? Was built on raping and pillaging. Sure, and God knows that's something we need to get back to. Because that's when things were great again.

Make it great again. Yeah. All right, well, it was good talking to you. Was it? Yes. Was it okay? Totally. I don't go on shows very much.

No, it was great. Okay. Don't you feel good? I feel good. Okay. I feel like I had fun. All right. There you go.

That was great. I want to mention again that new episodes of the dream are published weekly. You can also listen to past seasons on all podcast platforms. Hang out for a minute. Hey folks, another week, another trip for me. My tour is taking me all over the country this year and if you travel for work,

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in a Lethbridge Land community. Visit lethbridgeland.ca and take the first step towards your new home today. Hey folks, two years ago, I talked with another podcaster who has a long running and beloved show, Karina Longworth. We talked about old Hollywood, new show business, and the forgotten history of entertainment. When I think about what you're doing,

and I know the podcast is popular, but I wonder how much people know anymore, or how much people care anymore. I mean, that's what's crazy is that I'm only 42. I mean, obviously that's older than a lot of people. Right. But it's like, I, it feels like it was so present not that long ago to me,

and now it just feels like it's gone. But isn't that weird? Can you track that as an intellectual when that happened? I'm actually kind of trying to do that right now because the season that I'm working on is about the 90s. Yeah. And so I'm really trying to figure out like what is the end of this thing? That you're involved in? Yeah. And so I'm really trying to figure out what is the end of this thing.

That you're involved in? Yeah. The romantic, seedy, but glamorous world of Hollywood. Yeah, and it's, you know, I always thought, the tagline of the podcast is that it's Hollywood's first century, which could mean a lot of things based on when you define the start of Hollywood.

When do you define it? Around 1908. With which film? That's basically when they start making movies in the start of Hollywood. When do you define it? Around 1908. With which film? That's basically when they start making movies in the city of Hollywood. Like over in Echo Park, where was the Keystone? That's like Louisville is. Louisville is, yeah.

But then you could say that the Hollywood business of making feature films doesn't really start until around 1915. But I've just kind of always thought of it as the 20th century. And, you know, not being- So you're out of it. You're out of the first,

we're out of the first century by a few years. I would say so, yeah. That's episode 1421 with Karina Longworth of You Must Remember This. You can listen to that for free on all podcast platforms. To get every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for WTF+. Go to the link in the episode description To get every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for WTF plus.

Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's some guitar like I play. Okay. So I'm gonna be a man. So So So So I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star

I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a rock star I'm gonna be a good boy. Boomer lives! Monkey in the Fonda! Cat Angels everywhere!