WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1634 - Ryan Coogler

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

As a writer and director, Ryan Coogler is drawn to stories about identity. He made Fruitvale Station to confront his own thoughts and fears about being a Black man in America. He made Creed as an extension of the dynamic he has with his dad. He made Black Panther while conscious of the impact it would have on a global community. Ryan and Marc talk about these films as well as Ryan's latest movie Sinners, which also explores Ryan's preferred topic of identity, but this time through the lens of Delta Blues, doppelgangers, and vampires. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies?

What the fuck? Nick's what's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. What is happening? How's it going? How's it?

How's it feeling? I just want to check in tough times, times Tough times in the world tough times if you think a certain way tough times in your head if they're already tough already Already tough already. Yeah, I just said that sentence Look, I'm sitting in a hotel room in Traverse City, Michigan. I did two shows here last night and they went they went really nice They were they went well as a nice little theater It's a comedy festival up here. I've I've never been up to Traverse City on some level in my immediate world right now I'm in a I'm in a room. I'm looking out on what I imagine is Lake Michigan, correct? And

It's it's pretty it's a little overcast. It's quiet because this is a summer town. So it's got that summer town off season vibe. I guess it's similar to like a, an, an Island, like Island people. I mean, there are definitely locals who spend the summer accommodating, uh, tourists who are there to have a good time. And then here we are in the sort of off season time where the locals kind of can relax and sort of fortify their spirits in preparation

to hide the resentment for the demanding tourists of the summer season. So it's kind of got a nice vibe. So look folks today on the show I talked to Ryan Coogler. He's the writer and director of Fruitville Station, Creed and the two Black Panther movies. His new film is called Sinners which he made with his frequent collaborator Michael B. Jordan and it's a pretty trippy movie. I didn't know what to expect. A lot of times I get guests and I get screeners But this movie is definitely a horror movie. I think it's

Jordan Peele does he's his thing but there seems to be sort of a world of black centric Horror that's coming out. That's pretty pretty intense and pretty engaging and and I had no idea what this movie was about But it's sort of focused in the story of the blues and it's very grounded in in music and mysticism and vampires

So there's a lot to be liked about this movie and it was very interesting to talk to Ryan because I also watched Fruitville station, which I hadn't seen, which is a devastating movie about a police officer killing a black young man. And it's based on a true story. And you know, all this stuff still happens and continues to happen and continues to continues to get worse. But it was good to talk about where Ryan came from and what you know, what his vision for films are. I'm in Los Angeles at Dynasty Typewriters starting this Monday,

April 14th, then on Saturday, April 26th, and again on Tuesday, April 29th. Those are all 7.30 p.m. shows. I'm at Largo, 8 p.m. show on Tuesday, April 29th, those are all 7.30 PM shows. I'm at Largo, 8 PM show on Tuesday, April 22nd. Toronto, I'm at the Winter Garden on Saturday, May 3rd for two shows. Burlington, Vermont, I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5th, and one show on Tuesday, May 6th. Portsmouth, New Hampshire, I'll be at the Music Hall

on Wednesday, May 7th. Then I'm in Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the BAM Harvey Theater, May 7th. Then I'm in Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the BAM Harvey Theater on May 10th. Two shows there. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Yeah, so I've been away a lot and I'm a bit untethered out here.

But again, out here in the world, a lot of good people, a lot of nice people, a lot of people that come out and enjoy the relief. It's a very strange thing though after a show that that I know that you know I'm doing a show and I know that you know my audience mostly, you know, they are grateful for the show and they get some laughs but then you know you leave and you walk out into the world of What's happening politically and what's happening in your own mind and your concerns about your own life had some federal workers? You know come up to me after the show who are on the edge of losing their jobs or have already lost their jobs And there's just not there's not a lot of places to go in the mind

in terms of and in reality in terms of of hope or or knowing what to do next with with one's life and one's purpose and it's just it's fucking brutal but but it's happening and I am appreciative or relieved that some people in the broader cultural media universe are starting to acknowledge what's happening and acknowledge that what we're seeing here is a very aggressive authoritarian coup of sorts. And I know that the sort of response to that

on the other side and a sort of limited information side is that well he was elected democratically elected yeah by a small margin but you know that is one of the blind sides of democracy is you may elect a monster and I don't know I honestly don't know in my mind in terms of what people are really like, you know, how people still see strength or hope or a benefit to the country in the future with what's going on. But it is happening.

It is happening. It is happening. And at some point you gotta stand up and be counted somehow. Probably through some database that some techno overlord is pilfering, but maybe from your own place and from your own point of view. I don't mean to be heavy, but Jesus Christ, I'm out here doing nothing but thinking

and wandering around. And look, I can appreciate, I'm out here doing nothing but thinking and wandering around. And look, I can appreciate, you know, where I'm at, but still the mind is churning, the information on the phone is churning, and it's hard not to personalize it and crumble, but try not to crumble people, try. Oh man, this is, I'm sorry. Hey, I can tell you about Grand Rapids,

about, you know, I was surprised about Grand Rapids, Michigan. What a pleasant city. What a pleasant city. And I can talk about why that'll be nice. And again, very nice people, meeting a lot of nice people, and they're still out there,

and they're not, you know, people aren't hiding yet. Let's talk about home security for a minute, folks. I have home security because I want my place to be safe whether I'm at home or whether I'm not and we've recommended SimplySafe for almost a decade as home security you can trust During that time simply safe has only gotten better and right now the simply safe system is the best it's ever been Thanks to simply safe active guard outdoor, which prevents crime before it happens. Stop break-ins, package theft and vandalism with live monitoring agents who can see, speak to and deter suspicious individuals outside your home before they can do anything. And SimpliSafe is not only effective, it's affordable.

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Go to simplisafe.com slash WTF. That's simplisafe.com slash WTF that simply safe dot com slash WTF for 50% off and the first month free. There's no safe like simply safe. One thing that always moves me which I don't I don't quite know why but I'm always fascinated and there's a great examples of this in Grand Rapids, is when you have these older buildings, either built at the turn of the century, these old kind of buildings that were once businesses,

some cities that do some kind of renovation or urban renewal of whatever kind, kind of treat these museums with a certain amount of respect. Sometimes they leave the ghost of the old signs of the business that once occupied the building on the building. And they usually kind of clean up the bricks and put new windows in. And it becomes sort of a, a, a kind of a museum piece, uh, with respect for some other time that has gone by, or at least a structure.

And grand rapids is full of these buildings in certain sections right near downtown. And I just, I love looking at them. I love looking at brick and I love looking at old buildings from the early 1900s that have been renovated with new windows, cleaned up bricks. And for some reason I get a real sort of poetic and moving vibe from them. cleaned up bricks and for some reason I get a real sort of poetic and Moving vibe from them. I just love seeing when they're when they're treated nicely and and and taking care of and there's a lot of that in in Grand Rapids and

There's also some of the best coffee I ever had in my life in Grand Rapids, Michigan And that's weird and sometimes I don't know what that means since I've, God knows how much coffee I've drank in my life, but sometimes you go to a place and you're like, oh my God, this coffee is amazing. I'm sure I've had that experience many times in my life at different points and in different places, but this Lantern Coffee in Grand Rapids was just fucking amazing.

Outside of that, the show was great. There's a venue there that is kind of astounding. And I noticed sound. I'm very sort of sensitive to sound. And this venue, GLC Live at 20 Monroe in Grand Rapids, is not an old theater. It's a newly built structure for live music and live events. And sometimes if they're designed well,

you don't know where they're gonna happen or how they happen or who designed it, but this is primarily a rock venue. But in terms of sight lines and in terms of the stage, it's just fucking perfect. And because of the way the structure was designed, the room is dead, which I'm a big fan of. When you do audio recording, a dead room means that you'll, you won't get any noise,

you won't hear cars in the background, you won't hear bounce. But to be in a venue where the entire place is like that, it was just, it was so, it was kind of like a privilege to work in a place where the sound is so honest. And that venue is amazing. So I don't know if you live in Grand Rapids or you live close to Grand Rapids, but I imagine if you have an opportunity to go see a show at that place, GLC Live at 20 Monroe, I would do that.

I would do that. Again, I'm sorry about the heaviness at the beginning. I'm just trying to manage. I can only take so much of the world before I refocus on my cats at home. And apparently, even though I've been trying to medicate Charlie and trying to get that thing under control, that little monster,

I'm not sure it's working from the reports I'm getting from the woman babysitting my cats. And I don't know. So Charlie's medicated, I'm getting from the woman babysitting my cats and I don't know so Charlie's medicated I'm medicated and this Bussporin though I was optimistic and excited at the beginning I'm not sure that it's doing what I wanted to do hence the opening of this particular podcast but again that's reasonable but how much time during the day do I need to obsess and panic about it? I mean right now nothing's happening out my window. Lake Michigan is,

is calm. Uh, there's a nice overcast. There seems to be some Hills in the distance. That's what's happening right now in my real time life. What's happening in my mind, that's layers. All I'm thinking about is, you know, Charlie beaten up on the other cats, authoritarianism happening in my country, you know, the future, what's going to happen, you know, when I go to New York, when I go to Toronto, when I go here, there, I'm happy I'll be home for a few hours for a few weeks before all these shows to kind of tighten up the hour.

Uh, yeah, my, in my health, my mind, my body, my body, my mind, my body, my I'm happy I'll be home for a few hours for a few weeks before all these shows to kind of tighten up the hour Yeah, my health, my mind, my physical fitness, like it just is ongoing at all times And the only way to counter that is like maybe I can lock into my phone and just completely have single singleness of focus on bullshit that I can hold in my hand or I can just panic and I thought that the medicine would kind of temper that but it doesn't seem to be doing it and clearly Charlie is shitting outside the box and beating the fuck out of the other cat so I guess Charlie and I together are gonna have to move through this medication trial you you know, and figure out what's happening for both of us. Well, I'll get home and we'll reconnect on that and see what we can do.

I don't fucking know, man. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Yeah, who doesn't need it? And yes, it's true. Traditional in-person therapy can be expensive with average costs between $100 to $250 per session, which adds up pretty fast, folks, and a lot of times, that can be enough to stand in the way of people getting the help they need through therapy. With better help, you can save on average up to 50% per session.

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You can join a session with the click of a button Helping you fit therapy into your busy life plus switch therapists at any time your well-being is worth it Visit better help comm slash WTF to get 10% off your first month. That's better help h elp comm slash WTF man That's better help, help.com slash WTF. Man, first couple days of this trip, sometimes that three hour time difference, I was just fucked up and beside myself, a little loopy. But again, the shows have been good. Focusing on the work has been helpful.

Trying to get exercise and eat right has been helpful. Talking to like-minded people and talking to close friends about what I'm going through and what they're going through has been helpful. Kind of figuring out a path to sort of take action in ways that I can speak my mind in ways that I can is helpful and important, uh, stressful time. And there's some two levels of, of, of concern or, or, or care. You do have to take care of yourself and your vessel and your mind, but you also have to stay engaged and take action in any way you can to, to push back on what is happening.

way you can to push back on what is happening. Okay, okay look so Ryan Coogler very interesting guy, interesting story, great filmmaker. The movie Sinners opens in theaters this Friday April 18th. It's showing in IMAX which is the format Ryan encourages you to see it in. It is a horror movie. It is a vampire centric horror movie but in a very unique way. It is a horror movie. It is a vampire centric horror movie, but in a very unique way. It's framed around music and around the blues and around the black experience from the Delta to Chicago back to the Delta. And, uh, and in the different sort of ways he approaches music in the movie are interesting. And it look, I'll let it speak for itself. This is me talking to Ryan Coogler. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz.

Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at Fizz.ca. My wife was a sign language interpreter before I convinced her to make movies with me. Really? Yeah. So you can do it? I can fingerspell. Yeah, yeah.

I can't, I can't, I can't. Do the word, the phrases? I'm not like her, bro. Yeah, she's a different level. Did she use to, what did she do it for? She did it, her first job, she got hired by a non-profit called Decora. Yeah. So she would help, basically help deaf people find work

and get them acclimated on their job. Oh wow. And then when I did Creed 1, she decided that she wanted to come, cause she was always there for me whenever I made movies, even when I was in film school. She was always basically producing. Right.

Though it wasn't like an official thing cause I was in film school where everybody on the crew had to kind of be part of the school. You know what I'm saying? And I'm at Fruitville, she was working her nine to five, but she would come, you know, because you know, she working eight hour days. We working 12s.

And she would get off work, come straight to set. When I got Creed going, she decided that she wanted to come with me to Philadelphia to be there for me. She got a leave of absence from her job. But then she, you know, basically became an independent contractor, like an independent sign language interpreter, and got hired by an agency in Philadelphia while we were there.

So she was working there. Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. Helping a student at school this day, and helping somebody on job training another day. And then she would come to set. So she was part of, like, she got part of, like, job placement, temporary job placement place that needed interpreters for whatever.

Exactly. Exactly. So she just stayed busy and do service. Yep, and then did the same thing in LA when I was in post. And then when I did Panther, she did the same thing. You know, like, was working in LA. And then I convinced her after that movie to start same thing. You know, like was working in LA and then I convinced her after that movie to start making films full time with me.

Oh yeah? Yeah. Well, cause that's an interesting thing in that, I mean, she didn't have to work, right? I mean, back then we did, she did, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, back then, bro.

Yeah, I wasn't making no money. Yeah. Even on Creed, though? I mean, she must, she must. I mean, I was 200 grand in debt from film school. So, like. Maybe she had a, So, yeah, it was bad.

Like, you know, we wasn't married yet, neither. Like, we was engaged. Yeah. But she, like, she was, you know, we don't come from no money, bro. Yeah. So, like, it was, you know, we didn't get to the place where, you know, you could argue she didn't have to work

till like after. I just wondered if she, it was a, you know, it was part of a feeling of service to do the work she did. 100%, bro. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. 100%, but she also come from like, you know, salt of the earth people.

Like her pop is, her pop is 93 right now. 93. And her mom is from the Philippines, moved to the Bay Area when she was like 20, 21. So she first generation on our mom's side, and then she's silent generation on our dad's side. You know what I mean? And it came up without a lot.

So she always was a worker. She was always gonna get hers, you know what it came up a lot. So she always was a worker. She was always gonna get hers, you know what I'm saying? But it's rare that I think you find people, and they're very important, that do work that helps people. 100%, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, yeah, like real work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like that builds people up. Yeah, no, 100%.

Most people are out for themselves. Yeah, not her. Yeah, and you grew up in that as well, right? Yeah, my mom worked for a nonprofit founded by a Jesuit priest in Oakland, and they did community organization. Right. So the nonprofit itself would employ in Oakland and they did community organization. So the nonprofit itself would employ and train

community organizers that would then go out and train communities, it was an international organization. My mom was an executive though. She started off as the founders secretary and then eventually worked her way up to being like the CFO of the organization before she left it. Like in those situations though, like what is the job

of a community organizer? To be honest with you, bro, like I don't know. Like my mom's job was what I knew and she worked in the office. Yeah. In Oakland, not far from my school, she did a lot of paperwork, like she had like a copy machine, a computer.

Yeah, you knew that. And upstairs and and downstairs. And upstairs was where our boss was. He ran the organization. And he had a lot of, like I was a kid, bro. He had a lot of papers and people would come in and meet. You know what I'm saying? Well, I mean, it's weird because I ask,

because I've had a lot of Oakland around me lately, because I had Delroy in here a couple days ago. Yeah, Delroy lives, he's from somewhere else, but he lives in Oakland, he's lived in Oakland for like, I don't know, what, 40 years? Yeah, and then like last week I was with Kamau, you know Kamau? I'm not Kamau, I will.

Yeah, yeah, and then I ran, just last night I ran into Boots. Boots is from Oakland. Yeah. Yeah, Boots is from Oakland. I just went to a restaurant and I saw that hat. See that hat, the red hat, yeah. I'm like, you know what's funny?

Last time I saw Boots, I was in a restaurant and saw the red hat. It was like a year and a half ago. It was actually just a year and some change. It was before we both made our movies. Oh yeah. Because he's finishing his right now too. Right, right.

Well this must be his like second or third movie, right? It's his second movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. finishing his right now, too. Right right there. Well, this must be his like second or third movie, right? It's his second. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he did that TV show. Yeah, and he did that the the weird movie Crazy movie. Yes, incredible. It's sorry to bother you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah with the horse headed guys. Yeah I loved it man. I love books. Yeah. Yeah, he said whenever I talked to him I almost brought my notebook in here. Yeah, I feel he's a- Whenever I talk to him, I almost brought my notebook in here because I feel the same way about, when I listen to your podcast, you're gonna say something, it's a strong chance you're gonna say something

I should write down, you know? I doubt it. Like Boots is like that, man. Sometimes I bring my notebook when he's talking to me because he'll talk to me about history and he got such a unique perspective, you know what I'm saying? Like being a musician and a filmmaker. So like, I had a good conversation with Delroy.

He's an amazing guy, amazing actor. But when I went to see the movie, I went to see Sinners, and I didn't really know anything about it. Right? So I go over there, and I had no idea it was a music movie. I'm kind of like a blues person. I all the guitar yeah you know I got how and wolf up here on the on the wall wow yeah that's Chuck Berry and then this picture

oh that's a man they got a wolf yeah yeah yeah amazing that's a good one right it's beautiful doing the thing yeah I see Chuck now yep yep yeah and that's Mick that's Mick yeah yeah but uh but so like I get in there right right out of the gate. I'm like, oh shit. It's a blues movie That's awesome, you know, I'm like, all right I had no idea where we were starting but we start right at the right at the at the Delta You know, what is it probably that 20 30s 20 32 is 72. Yeah. Yeah, so it's after the the the old old guys Yeah, you just just just right you're getting into the guys that knew them But are the next ones and then they exactly some of them moving up to Chicago

but in terms of like this movie was You know after Creed after the Creed after you know, Black Panther like what what makes you want makes you want to kind of get into this story? Man, that's such a good question, bro. So I tend to make movies, like I'm drawn to stories about identity. And in my identity as an American, as an African American, a black man,

what some folks would call a foundational black American, as an African American, a black man, what some folks would call a foundational black American, meaning my ancestors have been here a very long time. You know what I'm saying? Have you traced it? I mean, it's an interesting name. I never heard your last name before. Oh, yeah, it's a German name. It's German, okay.

A German name, yeah. So it means somebody German owned one of my ancestors at that point. Right, yeah. Right, and, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it means somebody German owned one of my ancestors at some point. Right, right, yeah. Right, and it's something that I'm always, it affects everything, my identity, culturally, my identity, personally. Yeah.

And the older I get, the more I'm interested in the question, you know what I'm saying? Sure. Like I was interested in this question when I was a kid, and now I have kids, you know what I'm saying? Yeah was interested in this question when I was a kid, and now I have kids, you know what I'm saying? And I'm even more interested in it, and getting to the root of why I am who I am now, but also why the world is the way it is,

and what's my place in that? So with Fruitville, I was telling a story about a place that I know. It's a- That was like down the street. Down the street, exactly. It's a devastating film. The way you shoot it, it's kind of intimate and menacing.

And the decision to include the real footage at the beginning, because you know what's gonna happen. And then it's a process of humanization. Yes, yes sir, yes sir. Which is what the camera is capable of doing. And we know this in the ages, everybody's gotta hide that camera in their pocket. You know what I mean?

And the world has been changed by that, but also reinforced in some ways. But you know, for me, you know, each film I like to start with a question. And for Fruville, the question was, you know, initially it was like, how could this happen here? Cause I had a view of the Bay Area, and I think everybody did,

had their own personal view of the Bay Area. And the question of how a man could be, you know, essentially executed You know, this is where the Panthers were founded. Yes Where we from and they were founded for this for this very reason because these things were happening Yeah, I mean so in studying that film, you know, I got to I got to dig in but also like discover things about myself You know me on that movie. I realized I wanted children Yeah, you know like I didn't I didn't think also discover things about myself. On that movie, I realized I wanted children. I didn't think I wanted kids before I made that movie, but through the process of making it, of many things, it was also a story about a father,

a young father. And I was like, oh man, I wanna see what that's like. And for Creed, I got the idea for that, because my father had gotten sick. In a way, I didn't understand. Is he still around? Yeah, he's good. Oh, good.

Yeah, he's good. But, you know, it was touch and go for a while while I came up with that idea. Yeah, now, when you like, to go back to Fruitville for a minute, like... So you heard that story and something about that story and it's a sadly common story is that, you know, there was no way for you not to identify with the possibility and the reality of that. Yes. And so when you start to decide to create a story

around that guy, do you talk to his wife or his girlfriend? Yeah, I talk to everybody. You talk to all his girlfriend? Yeah, I talk to everybody. You talk to all of them. Yeah, I talk to everybody. Because what unfolds there is interesting is that to honor that guy's memory, the honesty that you took to that story, which is like he's a flawed guy, he's got problems. Yeah, totally.

But he's not different than anybody else. He's just trying to get by. Yeah. And then, you know, this horrendous thing happens to him specifically because of racism, really. And that, and then, you know, it's weird every time you see a movie like that, or you hear a story like that, you're like, well, did that fucker have to pay that cop?

Yeah. And it's never enough. Nah. But, you're like, well, did that fucker have to pay that cop? And it's never enough. Nah. But, so you learned about yourself, even approaching the guy as a father, that by telling that story, you're able to create a full picture of, of not just the tragedy,

but bringing the real human, the humanism to it. This is a guy just trying to get by. Yeah, totally, totally. And a guy from a community, a guy who had people who he loved, a guy who had people who was counting on him. Was he from Oakland? He's from Hayward, actually.

Oh, okay, okay, yeah. It's a couple cities over. And what did you, when you finish that, you know, being with that story for so long like the the fear doesn't go away, right? No No, nah, you know, nah man, like I mean, well usually follows me finishing a movie and putting it all as a depression That must have been depression on a few levels a lot of levels. Yeah. Yeah, cuz we released it That was when I'm George Zimmerman already came down. Oh, yeah.

So he walked, basically, while we were in theaters. Yeah. A part of me was very naive, when I was in my mid-20s making that movie, yeah, thinking, hey man, this'll maybe make a difference. Maybe this'll, you know, and it was very clear that, to me at the time, it was very clear that, to me at the time, I was like, yeah, probably not. You know what I mean?

I mean, the powerlessness of it is, it almost seems, and now, like, with this government, you know, anybody who thinks differently, who has, you know, who believes in tolerance and empathy, you know, has all of a sudden been othered as well. So there's a sort of a trauma vibration happening now, but the black community has known forever since they've been here. Oh yeah. So, but the powerlessness, it seems to me that what you land on, even with Sinners to some degree is that the only power you have is community. Yes, sir

Right. Yes, and and and and what you have in that is you have, you know extended Family and people who understand the struggle but also just want to live their fucking lives. Yep Yep, and you know and and and beauty, and the epic beauty in that. Yeah. Yeah, the epic beauty in seeing each other, having people who see you understand your position in society, or the superhuman pressures that's on you.

Yeah. But also simultaneously understand that you're just a person, like that wants to have a good time for a night, or wants to dream, or wants to spend time with you, wants to make a home to your kid, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of those things, I thought, you know, was, um,

you know, that was what I realized that I wanted to make movies about, you know what I'm sayin'? When you started making movies, was that on your mind? I mean, that idea, I think, like, was imprinted on me just circumstantially, like how my family gets down and how my neighborhood got down, like what it was like to be from Oakland at the time.

What'd your old man do? Yeah, my dad worked as a youth guidance counselor in Juvenile Hall, so like, essentially, man, he hasn't had that job for a long time now, but it was essentially like a cross between a childcare provider in a group home and a prison guard. You know what I'm saying? It was where kids who got incarcerated would go.

And this job of a youth guidance counselor, you kind of had to be the adult there that made sure the kid was good and kind of helped guide the kid into adulthood in the time that they're there. But you also have to, you know what I'm saying, like make sure that they not leaving this place, they're escaping, have to make sure they're not harming

themselves or the other young people that should cross-righted with them. That was his job. Did he see the movie? Did he see all the movies? My dad, he watched all my movies, yeah. And when he, like there must be something after watching Fruitvale that,

again, that powerlessness that, you know, no matter what he does or how good he does it, and no matter how good these kids are when they leave or what they try to do, it's not safe. Yeah, and in reality, you know, cause I had a chance to work with my dad for like, I wanna say, maybe five years, I would work with my dad part time, for like, I wanna say, for like maybe five years,

I would work with my dad part time. And I would see people at the job, because the job, you were like a blend of these two things. You know what I'm saying? Like, I would see people that lean more towards, like treat the job like they were a prison guard. Disciplinary. Yeah, like, I mean, this is like,

you know, this is like law enforcement adjacent. You know what I'm saying? Like, and they would kind of bleed over into, you know, like damn, they're being cops. And then you had people who had the same job who was way more on the childcare provider side. Social worker. Yeah, like, you know, really like trying to raise the kids.

My pop was maybe too far that way. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Never really got promoted. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, kind of. Care too much. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like I tried to be right? You know, I'm saying like I kind of too much. Yeah exactly You know, like I tried to I tried to be like my dad while I was there It was a really tough job to have bro like like like um, and my dad lost a lot of kids man

Like like so many so many of the kids my dad was close with would get released and get and get murdered You know I'm saying I get released and got a yeah prison for a long time Yeah, you know I mean and you know. Even before I knew what my dad did, we would walk around in the Bay Area in the 90s, and it would be grown men who would run up to my father and hug him, sometimes break down crying. I would realize later that these were guys that my dad had at a place where not everybody looked after him.

Right, could have gone either way. And they are alright. Yeah, yeah for sure. And grateful. For sure. His career maybe wasn't the greatest at that place though for all the reasons. But he looked out for the kids. But that's the impact.

You can change someone's life. So how did you get into the movie making after the, so you were doing that when you were, was that your first job with your old man? No, no, hell no. No, no, I didn't work there until I was 21. I've been working probably since I was like 13, maybe younger, bro.

Like my first job was, my first job was I did gardening with my uncle. He had a landscaping company. So I was working with him when I was like eighth grade, ninth grade. That's your dad's brother? No, he's my dad's cousin. Oh, okay.

Technically my cousin. Yeah, yeah. He's older, so we call him my uncle. So you're running around with the mowers and stuff? I was running around with the mowers, bro. Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy, my uncle is like, my uncle is like, you ever watch Breaking Bad?

Yeah. My uncle is like Gus Fring. Oh yeah. In Breaking Bad, like looks like he ain't Carl, you ever watch Breaking Bad? My uncle is like Gus Fring in Breaking Bad. Like looks like Gencarlo, you know, like the whole get down. And he also owned a couple KFCs. Yeah, like him and his wife owned KFCs. So they owned a KFC in Emeryville.

So then as soon as I turned 16, I could work there. You're out of the Moors? Yeah, I was out of the Moors. Into the Grease? Yeah, exactly. Working for Harmon's Corporation. And then I worked in a couple group homes as a childcare provider. And then when I hit 21,

I worked with my pop for a little bit. So the group homes, now that experience is that, how much did that inform your perspective in terms of empathy? Big time, bro, big time. I mean, like incredibly, man. Like, you know, you see how much as human beings, we kind of products of a coin flip.

Yeah. You know, like you'll have kids in there that had no say in how their life went. You know, they're miners, you know what I'm saying? Like maybe their parent made a decision or, or both parents made a decision or an adult neglected them or harmed them, you know what I'm saying? And now the struggle of their life for the rest of their life,

for the rest of their life from that point is to figure out if that action somebody else took against them is gonna define them. You know what I'm saying? And how to fight back from within themselves against taking the wrong path, getting stuck in the wrong situation. Yeah, or harming themselves. You know what I mean?

Like believing that they not, that they deserve punishment, you know what I'm saying? It's complicated. You know, 100% bro. Yeah, well there's a coin flip in Fruitville too, like, you know, I don't know, his poor mother, you know, that moment at the end where she's like, I told him to take the train.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, did you get a sense from talking to her His poor mother, you know that moment at the end where she's like I told him to take the train. Yeah. Yeah I mean, yeah, did you get a sense from talking to her that she told that she told me that yeah like what you know the movie was like what I mean, I would be kind of got in a real interesting way like Um, I was at USC film school, right? So after you work at KFC, how do you get to? USC I mean, it's the whole time I'm playing football. So I'm a football player. And I'm taking a school series. So my whole goal is to get a football scholarship.

My parents was middle class. And you wanted to be what? I wanted to be a professional football player. But I figured, I knew that was, the older I got, the more I understood the odds that I happened in. Sure, that's good. And I always took care of school,

so I figured I'd be a doctor, you know what I'm saying, if I couldn't do that. That's a long haul. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but my parents put me in good schools, man, you know, private schools in Oakland, in Oakland and Berkeley. And they would always like, they would let it be known to me

that it was a sacrifice for them to pay for school. So I had to take the work series. But my whole goal was to make it so that they didn't have to pay for me to go to college. You know what I'm saying? So I went to get a football scholarship. So I got a football scholarship to a school called St. Mary's College, that's in Maraca.

They know it for their basketball program, but they had a football program back then too. And I went and I was majoring in chemistry, and I was getting my ass kicked with it like with the labs like the labs And football practice wasn't working out. I could never get chemistry man. I just could never get the elements I got it's like math. I couldn't do it man. You're a comic bro. You can do it. Yeah You can't but you can't get you can't you can't charm your way through chemistry You're not charming your way through a comedic career

neither, but actually it's scientific. The job is charming. You gotta have the charm to deliver the good. You can't get up there on stage and just be charming, bro. Yeah, you watch a few comics. There's definitely a lot of that going around. Oh, man. Oh, man, that's funny.

But yeah, so OK, so you're doing the chemistry, you're doing the football, and then all of a sudden what? So I'm playing, bro, like I'm playing, I'm 17 years old. I'm playing my freshman year, true freshman year. We getting killed though. Like I think we got one in 11 or something. And then out of nowhere, they dropped the football program. Like the school makes a business decision,

we're not gonna do this no more. But does that mean you can't go there anymore? Well what it meant was, if I stayed there, they would've honored my scholarship, but there's no team. So I'll be going to school for free but not playing football. That's all right.

Well not then for me, at 17 I'm trying to go to the NFL, you know what I'm saying? Or at least I want the option to yeah. You know what I'm saying? So I'm, or at least I want the option to try, you know what I'm saying? Like, in my whole, once again, identity, my whole identity is wrapped up in being a football player. Right.

So I was like, well, I'm gonna walk around on campus and do what? You know what I'm saying? So like. That guy used to play football. Yeah, yeah, so I got a scholarship offer from a couple schools, one of them being Sacramento State.

Took that because I wanted to stay close to home. And I had to switch my majors. Like it was clear to me that chemistry wasn't gonna work out. So I went to finance. And while I was at St. Mary's College, it's a liberal arts school, they make you take English classes.

Sure. I took a creative writing course my spring semester, the semester that they dropped the program, I'm going through all of that. And I was in a class with a teacher named Rosemary Graham, and she read something that I wrote and told me I should write screenplays. Yeah.

So that's how it happened. Like she sat me down and said, I think you should go to Hollywood, write screenplays. So I had that in the back of my head. Started thinking about it, started writing on my own a little bit. And then I told my girlfriend at the time, who's my wife now. Yeah. And then she bought me a screenwriting software. The final page. Final draft.

Final draft, yeah. And then I was when I kinda like, that was when that became like my... Did you love it? Loved it, bro. Yeah, like I found something that, you know, outside of football, that I really loved.

Because like there's the immediacy of creating the moving story. It's beautiful, bro. Still to this day, man, I don't open that app up until I'm ready to go, you know what I'm saying? Because I got that much reverence for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you don't just fuck around with it.

When you get the story in your head, you go. Yeah, I got to get an outline and all type of shit before I go for a drive, yeah. So then you applied to film at USC? Yeah, what happened was I went to Sacramento State. New team, new environment. And I immediately got there, and I think Rosemary might have helped me

find the people who would show me how to make movies at that school. It was a big school, kind of like a commuter school at the time, and they got different departments. She really believed in you. Yeah, she did, man. Yeah. That's great.

Because like it's not like you should write a short story. I mean, you must have written in a very specific way where it was so visceral to her. She's like, this guy, he's got a sense of it. Yeah, maybe. Of telling a story with those bursts of description. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. So she set you up with the film guys over there?

Yeah, she helped me figure it out. And I went there and they had a great professional named Dr. Roberto Palmo, Argentinian American cat. I think he just retired. He was like film theory, critical studies. And then I took production classes with a dude named Steven Busch, who went to USC film school. He kind of ran the production department at Sac State, like the one that he learned from. Okay. So you got a sense of all the sides of it now you watching movies man what?

Yes, I Mean I thought that was that was that was that was learned cultural behavior sure from our but when you get to college You like when you take the the theory class big time, bro, and you're breaking them down breaking them down Which movie was like okay, I get it Probably a movie called within our gaze. Breaking them down. Which movie was like, okay, I get it. Probably a movie called Within Our Gates. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I thought it was- Whose film was that?

It's Oscar Micheaux. Okay. Yeah, yeah, we had to watch, we had to watch Birth of a Nation. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Which was like a fucked up watch as a black person, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, Griffith. Yeah, yeah, D.W. Griffith. And then we watched Within Our Gates the next day. Yeah. I don't know that film. So yeah, it's, Oscar Michaud was, he was our first major notable filmmaker

out of the African-American community. Yeah, yeah. He doesn't have like a counterpart, like I can't name a white cultural counterpart for him. Yeah. Because before Oscar Michaud, there wasn't, we didn't have it, counterpart like I can't name a white cultural counterpart for him. Yeah Because before Oscar Michelle there wasn't there what we didn't have it. Yeah I think I might have learned something about him at some point, but I don't I never saw the movie Yeah, he was a beautiful filmmaker. Yeah, and kind of like the first filmmaker to crowdfund Okay, you know like like when he would go around to folks in the African American community to have money and kind of piece together his budget

Yeah, you know and kind of recognized the value of having, telling your own stories, especially in a time, like I think it was made in, and it was made immediately after Birth of a Nation. It was a lot of- A reaction? Yeah, yeah, a lot of his movies have been lost. And he had a whole era of contemporaries.

Man, it's a beautiful non-fiction series called Hollywood in Black, Justin Simeon did. It talks about Oscar Michonne and some of his contemporaries and folks that came after him. But that experience was magical. We also watched a film called Long and Star. We watched. The John Sails movie.

Yeah, we watched Zoot Suit. I remember them experiences, man, like the back of my hand. Well, those are, and also independent, like, you know, sales independent, you know, making his own movies. But it sounds like Oscar was, you saw the possibility, even historically, to move, you know, within the community and from the community. Yes, sir.

Yeah. Yes, sir. And then, like, you know, in terms of your chops as a director, like when you start doing shorts and stuff, who, you know who who are your influences because you got you know It's a rare thing where people got a vibe with a camera. Yeah, you can be No, you can be efficient. Yeah, but to have you know the control that allows you to also express yourself You know with the camera as opposed to just with the story. That's something different. Yeah.

Yeah. You work with the same DP? No, no. I've worked with several. I think I've worked with three professionally, but my last two movies have been with Autumn Arquipa. Uh-huh. But it seems like with Rupert Vail, you knew the effect you wanted was going to come from

how you moved that camera. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it comes from everything. But the camera is the main vehicle. You know what I mean? Like, it's essentially like the canvas to the painter. What I liked about filmmaking, the itch that it scratches, like what I liked about writing

was that it was different from football in that it was just me. You know what I mean? Football is like almost like, it almost moves beyond being a team sport. It's almost like paramilitary. You know what I'm saying? And I play wide receiver. For me to even have a chance to catch a pass,

so many things have to go right. You know, that are completely outside of my control. They got to do it, my teammates and they individual battles and the play call coming from the coach. And not getting hit. And not getting hit, yeah. So so many things have to go right for me to even have the opportunity to touch the ball.

And you gotta be so in it that you can't second guess it. 100%, and I gotta be right once it gets to me. You know what I'm saying? And it can be a couple hundred snaps in a game. You know, and if a wide receiver has 15 catches, that's like a career day. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, a good day is like five or six touches.

You know what I'm saying? And that's a lot of football for five or six touches. You know what I'm saying? And, you know, your number gotta get called like 10 times. And don't let the guy guard you be good. You know what I'm saying? Too many obstacles. Exactly, but when I had that final driver,

it's just like, oh shit, it's just me. Yeah. All the choices. I gotta show up, but also if this shit sucks, it's on me. You know what I'm saying? But then, I am a community guy. I do like the team aspect. You know what I mean?

I do like the- Once you get on set. Yeah, cause it's nice on a day where like, maybe you injured, but you can go out there and help a little bit and your team still wins and you contribute it. You know what I'm saying? It's not on you every day.

Or if you have a great teammate. You know what I'm saying? And you get to be there and watch somebody great be great. or if you have a great teammate, you know what I'm saying? And you get to be there and watch somebody great be great and you're all along with them. You know what I'm saying? It's a fully collaborative effort. Yeah, or those moments where everybody is on the same page.

Everything goes right, you didn't even think about it. Everybody's in rhythm, you know what I mean? The guy walks in the end zone, all of you being touched. You know what I'm saying? It's like, oh shit, you know like that feeling. So that being on a set with a production team scratched that itch. So it was like I got the itch scratched

I didn't even know I had. And then I got the itch scratched that I knew. You know what I'm saying? So it was a big thing for me to learn like what everybody's job was, how everybody's job worked so I could respect them and communicate with them. And that camera, the job of the cinematographer, it's a very important job.

And it's also a thing, like when you learn, if you say, hey, I wanna make movies, you usually end up picking up a camera soon and learning really quickly that you better know what you're doing with that thing. Yo, yo, yo, yo, movies gonna suck. You know what I'm saying? And that for me was super important.

I learned that in film school. At USC. Yeah. So you were shooting on your own so you could at least know what you want from the DP. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's an ongoing conversation, right?

With the DP on set. Oh yeah, man I was always on the phone with her today. I was on the phone all of them today I had to ask her something for press Cuz I was trying to cuz we shot film and we shot two very unique formats and sinners mm-hmm film You saw him film. Yeah, oh my god 70 millimeter. Well you might how'd you get? How'd you get two of? You know he's he's two characters? Yeah, Mike. Yeah How do you get

What you think of you bro? Like like did you did you enjoy it was funny? Because I was driving back with my girlfriend and I was talking about what a you know, great actor That guy is what a movie star is and she was like, yeah, he's so handsome. I'm like, yeah, and you got two of them. Oh, man. Man, it's funny, bro. I was just looking at these standees that they made in theater, and there's two of them.

And people can go in and take a picture. And I'm like, oh, man, I wonder what kind of pictures finna come out of this. Kinda laughing to myself, man. You shoot that on film, but you still had to use the technology to make that seamless, right? Yeah, yeah, I had a great visual effects team. I had a guy named Michael Rolla, who's my visual effects supervisor.

He's born in Germany, grew up out there, he lives here now. And another guy named James Alexander, who's my visual effects producer. You know, we did a lot of research and planning, and we were able to achieve some cool techniques. Yeah, it was a great effect. Before we get to that though,

well, you kinda put Michael Jordan on the map, right? Well, Mike B? Yeah. I mean, I knew who Mike was when I was coming out of film school. I was looking for somebody to play Oscar Grant. And I knew him from his work, from his television career and his film career.

Sure. He did a film called Chronicle and a film called Red Tails. They both kind of came out in theaters at the same time. He was not the lead at all those movies. But he popped enough, you know what I mean? And then before that, he was in a lot of really great television shows.

He was in The Wire as a kid. And he was in a couple of Jason Kadem shows. He was in Parenthood and Friday Night Lights. So people knew him. like he was bubbling. You know what I'm saying? What I did do was come to him with what ended up being his first chance to lead a movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

To be the leading man, you know what I mean? Leading person, I should say. Sure, and where we started with this before we move on, so you talked to Oscar's mother, and we were talking about that coin flip and about the weight of that. Did you find that that was something she couldn't let go of? I mean, she mentioned it to me.

You know, like so it's clear. That's why you put it in there. And being a parent now. Yeah. You know, like I've been in situations where my kids like bump their heads or twist their ankle and my mind is like racking it, racking my brain up, hey, what could you have done better?

You know what I mean? You should have been better, you know what I mean? So brutal. And you know, so for that situation, like I know, like you know, she brought that up, she told me for a reason. You know, like. It's a powerful moment in the movie. Because you've already seen the arc of what happened.

And she's got to live with that. And it came from her thinking, telling her to do it, she thought it would be safer. Yeah, right, of course, yeah. Because her fear was him getting arrested. Yeah, yeah. In the car. He was on paperwork. So like, you get in the the car one of your homies got a gun on him

And one of your homies drinking, you know, you got it. You got a you going to big jail. You're gonna prison Yeah, you know, they're gonna violate your parole. So far. It was like man, you know, let's alleviate that. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, you know take public transportation, you know, it's so heavy. Yeah, so I didn't realize that Creed was you know your idea entirely in terms Yeah, so I didn't realize that Creed was uh, you know your idea entirely in terms That you found that story within the rocky franchise and yeah, and he had a little juice From the from fruitvale. It was crazy. I pitched I pitched sly Before I made fruitville. Yeah, I pitched him while we were while we were

While we were a couple weeks out from production, we might have been like one week out. And I flew out in LA and pitched him and Kevin King and his agent at the time, dude named Adam Vinny. I was pitching them while I was getting ready to make Fruitville. And it's the long, rightfully so, he was like, man, he heard me out and signed a couple autographs for me and sent me on my way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But after we met at Fruitvale, it was great that Vinny kept pushing and Estelone came around and met with me again and was open to working with me. And Irwin Winkler, too? Irwin Winkler, yep. I had to go see Irwin in New York. I talked to that guy. Yeah, you did?

How'd you find him? Well, you know, it's quite a career. Yeah. I mean, it seems like those guys, when he's made some good movies, but when it comes to business, he holds a line. You know, I knew there was some tension

for a while with some people. Yeah. Yeah. But he was good to work with Our yard was cool with me. Yeah. Yeah, like like both of them were cool with me You know what I'm saying when you told Jordan that you wanted him to do that was he like hell yeah? Yeah, he was yeah Yeah, I mean it's tough man cuz like cuz like we don't mean the reality is like I'm stepping in when it comes to Erwin And in and sly like I'm stepping into a you know like a 40 year old relationship Yeah, you know I'm you know I'm saying and and I'm stepping in, when it comes to Irwin and Sly, like I'm stepping into a 40 year old relationship. You know what I'm saying? And it was my job to be respectful to everybody

and stand up and to perform for them. I didn't want to let anybody down. I want to make them feel like they made a bad decision betting on me. You know what I'm saying? That's a big movie. Yeah, big movie. And then like Black Panther, I mean that movie changed the world

But I mean certainly a lot of people went to go see it And yeah, I'm incredibly proud of that movie, you know, I'm a part of all of them, bro Thank thankfully well, like is he said when you go into each film you have something in your mind about it What was what was it with Creed? And with Creed, the question was, it was very much wrapped up in my relationship with my father. Yeah. Because his illness was the first time

that I saw him truly vulnerable. Right. And I had to reckon with the idea that the strongest man that I know could possibly die. You know what I'm saying? And I was watching him lose his physical strength in the struggles he was having with that. And that concept of, it's a line in the movie,

but that concept of time taking everybody out. You know what I'm saying? It'd be undefeated, like whatever you, time will make the strongest person weak. You know what I'm saying? They'd be undefeated like whatever you, time will make the strongest person weak. You know what I'm saying? And like is that person, what is their value when they in that kind of state? You know, but Rocky was my dad's like movie hero.

You know what I'm saying? So like that idea for me was to, let me make a movie where Rocky's gotta overcome something. To like, I think my dad would enjoy that right now. You know what I'm saying? That's how I started. You know what I mean? Like, you know.

I want my dad to watch this movie so he feels better. Exactly, exactly. It was usually that simple for me, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, but then it gets complex. Sure, but that was the emotional heart of it. Yes, sir. And what about Black Panther? How'd that come to you? Yeah, for that was the emotional heart of it. Yes, sir. And what about Black Panther?

How'd that come to you? Yeah, for that one, man. So that was a different ballgame. That was an open assignment, essentially. MCU had been gone for a little while. I think that was like the 18th movie they made. Did you have to pitch it I? Didn't have to pitch it so much is like I mean kind of like like

the thing the thing was was like um Everyone in town knew they were making it and they were talking to one of my friends about about doing it you know um As a writer as a director director. Oh, okay. Her name's Ava Duvernay, incredible filmmaker, incredible friend, we met, and she instantly became a big sister for me in the industry. Kind of like would look out for me and advise me in situations.

And she let me know she was being considered for this job. You know what I'm saying? And they mutually came to the decision And she let me know she was being considered for this job. You know what I'm saying? And they mutually came to the decision that they weren't gonna do it together. But then she was like, hey, why don't you do it? Like she asked me and I was like, oh, I was like, on the spot I was like, I don't know if I can do that.

Like I was finishing up creating, I didn't think they would ever call me. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but it's also like a big responsibility. I guess they all are, but Jesus, Marvel. It's expensive. You know what I'm saying? Big expensive movie, and you don't want to fuck it up.

You don't want to do it wrong. And there was also a lot of anxiety around making a movie at a place that was that powerful. You know what I'm saying? Like, uh. What do you mean? I mean, like, they got a way of doing things. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a system, they're churning out that blockbuster.

It's just, like, from the outside looking in, they had, you know, they had a, you know, it seemed like a narrative could be built that, you know, that directors might be disposable. Yeah narrative could be built that you know, you know, they did that Directors might be disposable. Yeah I guess in a procession You know, I had a chance to meet with them and I and I found like they were you know It didn't it didn't fit the narrative. I was outside, you know, I mean they felt like they were like they could think they would be

People who I could work with you know, you know like with that but also, you you know you had to bring a narrative that hadn't been done I mean, I mean it's interesting like like because because um I Mean it's yes, and no right like like like the other thing that they may that may not Marvel so successful Was that they were working with they would they would they had at their disposal You know just like decades of intellectual property Yeah, you know like like decades of a built audience and awareness of who these characters are. Maybe not in the cinematic space,

but in the narrative space, you know what I mean? Like people with the comics. Yeah, people know who Iron Man is and what happens to him and what his story is and who he fights, you know what I'm saying? You know, and that's such a, I mean, we've come to learn in the last, you know, last 10, 15 years since 2008. I would say which is like the big,

I would say the big kind of watershed year of comic book movies. And it's kind of like the realization that these things were gonna be a force. You know, they have a gold mine at their disposal of stories and creative contributions from really smart people. You know what I'm saying?

And you can draw from all that. You can draw from all of that. That was the thing that was so interesting about when I agreed to start considering making a movie with them, I said, hey, let me get every Black Panther comic that was ever written. And it was like, yo, we'll be right with you.

And then boom, you know what I mean? It's just like mountains of, you know? Like they literally, they literally were like, yeah, no problem, you know what I'm saying? How many was that? Oh man, it was a bit, because I don't like reading things digitally. Because they're first gonna send it to me as a PDF,

you know what I'm saying? And I end up checking my email or it to me as a PDF. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I end up checking my email or some shit like on a tablet or whatever. So I'm like, oh, give me the physical thing so I can feel the weight of it, so I can read it like I would have read a comic book when I was a kid. Yeah. No problem. Yeah.

Boom, big ass binder. Like from 1960s. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Wow. To yesterday. Okay. Yeah. And seeing who was writing what and yeah, how they drew the pictures and right what appearance he was Yeah, you're active with you know, and so so so you not

It wasn't sinners. Yeah, you know, I'm saying well, I'm starting from well, I'm starting from the complete blank page, man Who are these people? What are they names? You know, right? None of that like it was like do you want that character? Yeah, this was an established mythology. 100%. Whereas like Sinners is a, it's kind of a real mythology. It's a folk mythology. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, 100%, bro. Like, so, and with that built in knowledge of fan base, comes expectations. Sure. You know what I'm saying? And then what's crazy is, in the success of that company. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, now you got expectations of the comics and now you got expectations of the movies, you know, so it's like it's like exponential Sure expect to expectation, but you knew you're making a different movie Yeah, because like, you know all those expectations are there but you're making a black movie. Yeah, how's it seen? So, you know there there there's, there's goodwill in an audience that hasn't even been tapped for that other shit. That's correct, yeah. And that's kinda what happened, I think. Yeah.

You know, like, which is good on them, bro, like for being open to it. Yeah. And honestly, like, same thing with Irwin and Slaw, you know what I'm saying? Being open to a take that might open it up to like untapped folks, you know what I'm saying? Being open to a take that might open it up to like untapped folks, you know what I mean? And that's international.

Yes, sir. And then it becomes sort of, again, there's a community incentive. Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You're not wrong, bro. Like, you know what I'm saying? That's also what happened.

Like, you know, and that's stuff that I can't take responsibility for as a filmmaker when people say, hey man, we gonna sight unseen on a movie. Hey, we gonna buy a theater for a bunch of kids to come see this. You know what I'm saying? Like, hey, have you seen the trailer maybe?

You know what I'm saying? But what's interesting is because, you know, it is a mythical space. These, you know, this is a superhero. Yeah. But because of the nature of, that it is essentially a black film, that no matter what the experience of black people globally in terms of their history,

this is something for them. 100%. And I would imagine that that was probably at least 80% a new audience. I mean, man, I don't know the numbers, man. Yeah, but I'm just saying. But shit, like I think, but it's just so interesting, bro,

because I just left, like I say, bro, I just left lunch with Director Bong. We were talking, and like, The Odyssey. Yeah. Howlin' Wolf. Yeah. You know, Smoke Stack Lightning. Yeah.

Who's that for? Yeah. Who's that for? Who's that for? It's a good question with the blues. You know what I'm saying? But the thing is, the thing is. Sadly, it's like 70 to 80 year old white guys. Yeah, but I mean, the thing is, it's for who it's for. But it's also for everybody.

That's right. You know what I'm saying? And that for me was what I realized. Look, my daddy will watch Rocky II and root for me was like that for me was what I realized like look my daddy will watch Rocky 2 and Root for Rocky. Yeah. Yeah, my daddy like a black man from from California sure, right? Yeah Something was happening in the magic of this movie. Yeah that that he's oh, yeah For the tie-in dude. Yeah, you know I'm saying like like boxing. Yeah, exactly

But but but I don't know the history of Rocky. Yeah, and I'm a kid. Yeah, and know I'm saying like like like boxing movie exactly, but but but but I don't know the history of Rocky Yeah, and I'm a kid and I'm like pop why you rooting for him? You know, you know, I'm asking this guy looks like you You know, you're like, you know, like why he's an all-man Apollo's the villain. Yeah, you know, you know, I'm saying I'm gonna heal and I'm like, I'm like, I'm like You know, what is he doing? That's that's that's You know what I'm saying? I'm like, you know, what is he doing? That's, that's, that's, you know? And I watched the movie, you know what I'm saying?

And I'm realizing, okay, yeah, he's, he's, he's, he's, you know, the camera is with Rocky. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I'm saying? Your dad grew up in a history of movies. 100%. When there was established. He understood the language, you sure?

Yeah, he understood. He understood the language. Like, when Apollo Creed is calling Rocky out and saying all these things about him, it's like, you're not even thinking about who's white and who's black, you know what I'm saying? It's like, man, you gotta go get this dude, you know what I'm saying?

Well, yeah, but when you open it up and you do Black Panther with the mythological universe, you know, the good guys and the bad guys, everybody's black. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, 100%, bro. So in that sense

It makes sense on a community level 100% wrong. Yeah, yeah, no totally man totally So like that because that's that's that's also what I grew up with. Yeah, you know, that's also what I grew up with the movies for everybody obviously, but but the The sort of uh, you know the world of it was completely unique to a lot of people. Yeah. You know, I think both, you know, all kinds of audiences. Like, for the black community, they're like, we've never seen this ship before. And then the same thing for the white kids.

They're like, we've never seen this ship before. It was a perfect storm. Oh, man. No one had ever seen that chippy. Oh shit. So were you scared? Terrified. Yeah. Yeah, bro.

Yeah, I had a nervous breakdown making that movie, man. Maybe several. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you keep it to yourself? My wife knew. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yourself My wife knew oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah coming home I'm a fuck am I doing my little brother was my little brother was my sister. He knew yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, they didn't they knew they helped me they helped me up though Just those crisis of confidence every day, bro. Yeah, I had one of those I had one of those every day. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I have some really intense ones, man. Like it was brutal, bro.

Yeah. It was brutal. Yeah. Yeah. And so in the new film, getting back to what we started with, this world of, you know, blues music and black culture at that time,

I thought like, cause like, you know, it's a story that, you know, if you have a certain type of mind, you kind of know the story a little bit of some kind. Like, you know, if you're a blues fan, you're gonna know the Crossroads story. Yes, sir. And, you know, but you took it a little further up in the history.

So now we're, you know, maybe a decade and a half away from Robert Johnson, Charlie Patton. Yeah. And you know, that hasn't really been explored, but the people in this movie knew that story. Yes, sir. Where Charlie Patton's guitar becomes an important thing. Yes, sir. And and then, you know, the sort of mystery of these twins coming back from Chicago and whatever the fuck they did up there to get this money. And then like, so like, you know, structuring that story, if it came all out of your head, right? You know, to make it compelling to not reveal why they were there or how, what they did

in Chicago. But then the big decision is like, who's the devil gonna be? How are we gonna do the devil part? Yep, yep. And it was kind of interesting because it wasn't really a devil movie, and it's not really necessarily a vampire movie. You know, it's a movie about the power of the magical power of music and how that can transcend or interpret or give a voice to pain. Yeah, sure. But then the human component is the good and evil of it all becomes sort of the through

line of it. This guy's got to preach your debt and then he's going to ultimately choose... I don't want to spoil it for anybody. But that was some serious shit he had to go through to still make the choice he made. Yeah, 100%, 100%, bro, 100%. We found that structure too, man. Bro, I loved making this movie, man.

Like I love- Well, period piece, it's great. I love making this movie. Like I love- Well, the period piece, like it's great. I love this movie, bro. Close everything, dancing. Yeah, 100%. And I felt like I had to earn it. You know what I mean? I felt like I had to go through what I went through

with my other movies to be able to have the ability to do this, you know? Well, it's interesting now because there is a world of black horror that, you know, is, it gives a lot of freedom to however you want to do it. 100%, bro. You know, like Jordan, you know, he does his thing. Yeah, beautiful movies.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and weird. Oh yeah, 100%. He's like an abstract thinker, and he's willing to take risks. So you've got that, there's an audience for it. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So what were you saying about loving it? What were the challenges? Because it did give you an opportunity too to explore, not necessarily characters that we've known a bit before. And so, I guess on some level, when you said you were piecing together the story, that the idea of music had to go all the way through it.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, like, so, back to family, man, I had an uncle who was from Mississippi. He was like the oldest Man in my family that I was around consistently. Yeah His name is Uncle James James Edmonds Blues music was all he would listen to yeah, you know, like I thought was just I was just get down Yeah, I mean like like and he would he would come on from work. He put a Giants game on Yeah, San Francisco Giants baseball game on on TV or on the radio,

and have a Blues record going. You know what I mean? Like which ones? All of them, man. All of them. I mean, his guy was Albert King. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. You know, like, but he listened to all of them, man.

Like, and I associated these songs with him. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like it wasn't, Blues wasn't my cup of tea. Yeah. And I associated these songs with him. You know what I'm saying? Like it wasn't my blues, it wasn't my cup of tea. And that word has like a connotation that kind of became associated with old things. And also like it didn't feel like it was mine. You know what I mean? It also got, I think there was a period there where

in some ways it became white. In terms of, once I think the black community moved away from it for whatever, because it represented something old, then all the white guys took it. Well yeah, like I mean this movie bro, we could talk for hours, but I didn't realize how deep you are into it, but, you know, like,

in my research, I discovered that, you know, and people talk about this all the time, it's not like my discovery, you know what I'm saying? People would speak to this often yeah, but but but you could make the argument that that genre is a Is an invention of racism. Yeah, you're saying you can make like the like the like the the Categorization of different types of music. Yeah, it is essentially like a form of segregation Oh interesting like like like, you know, it was at the time music was commodified, interesting. You know, like, you know, it was, at the time, music was commodified. Right.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it was a time where it was built on segregation. You know, so how do I tell people that this music is made by black people? Well, I call it a race record. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You know I'm saying yeah, you know, you know and I like that and like that that that that kind of like, you know race records became

you know Blues or soul or rhythm in blues, you know sound and you know in these categorizations And then they were eventually appropriated by by the white culture appropriated or you know, and or re and re appropriated you know, like it's really that's interesting because yeah because you, you know, the main vampire, the devil vampire, he's appropriating the souls of black people in a way. Yeah, in a way, but also, like, they also appropriating him once they become, you know, like souls. Sure, the eternal life racket. Yeah exactly. Yeah

Exactly exactly, but but you know, it's like no spoilers, but it's also a scene Where they sing in his music? Yeah, you know, you know, you know, I mean and and well, okay half of it comes from there exactly I thought was that was the whole like like like for me when I realized like Exactly. I thought was that was the whole like like like for me when I realized like You know even the narrative even a narrative which is which is which is true in part like, you know I'm saying that that blues came from the continent of Africa. Sure, you know, I'm saying totally accurate But what we recognize as as Delta blues in American blues, you know Also, it was contributions from the Choctaw community and contributions from the Irish community, you know what I mean? Contributions from, you know, like it had all of these

contributions. The rhythms changed. Yes, and all of these people had a thing in common. Yeah. That they had been stepped on. Right. You know what I mean? And made to feel less than and come off,

you know what I'm saying? And like that idea, for me, when I delve into the research of this music that my uncle loved, you know what I'm saying? And like that idea for me, when I delve into the research of this music that my uncle loved, you know what I'm saying? I was like, oh shit, like this is so profound. And also like everything that I ever loved that came out of popular culture came from this directly. Like I could draw a straight line back to,

you know, there's a reason I heard Nirvana and liked it. Yeah, immediately. You know what I'm saying? Like it's because it's what my uncle would play for me. Yeah, well you know what- Just saying it by white people, you know what I'm saying? But- It all comes to, yeah, the same source point.

Yeah. Yeah, I had Taj Mahal in the hair once. Ooh. And you know, like, cause I, you know, there is a, you know, there's a through line. He's a, you know, he's a historian, you know, really. And I had this old guitar that it was just an old Sears guitar that I used to have just to, as a, you know, something to look at. It was strung up, it played right.

And we were talking about Skip James. Oh, you're talking about hard time killer for yeah Yeah, well, I'm talking about like the I don't remember what song was but skip James You know he had like some sort of there was a certain guys in in that had a direct sort of you know Rhythmic and tonal from the continent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, maybe Senegal or some way Yes, it's all of that. Yeah. Yeah, so like I'm talking to I'm talking to Taj I call it Senegal. Yeah. Yeah, it's very specific. Yes, sir. They made it all the way through Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean it was it was not

You know in a in a in a in a curve of human history, but I was yesterday. That's right You know Sam, but I just picks up he picks up that old guitar. Yeah. Three seconds, right away. It's like, go all the way back. All the way back to the continent. 100%. And I was like, oh my God. 100%. It's a magic, man.

Yeah, 100%. So you were aware of all that. I was not. I mean, you became aware. I had to do, yeah, I dug into history. And so that was all informing how you were gonna handle it. But why twins though? Why'd you? Oh, that's such a great question. So so so so oh man, bro. All right, so so

It's somewhat of an inside joke with people who know me. Yeah, because I have my only phobia Yeah, is doppelgangers. Yeah, it's the only phobia. I have a weird one super weird one, bro Like like someone that looks like you? It's the concept of the doppelganger, like the double that is a harbinger of doom. Okay, yeah, yeah, sure. It was extra crazy about this years. My family has a ton of twins.

My mom has identical twin older sisters. One of them is my godmother. Yeah, right, identical twin. They live right next door to each other to this day. And I got cousins, my Uncle James, his granddaughters are fraternal twins. You know what I mean? And one of them just gave birth to fraternal twins this year.

So it's a constant in my family. But yeah, I wanted to deal with the archetypes with this movie. You know what I mean? I wanted it to feel like a blues song, like something that you heard before, even though you heard it for the first time. So I put a lot of archetypes in

and I was kind of obsessed with this idea of the gangster identical twins, cause that's like a theme. Yeah, you know, you know, I can that exists in a lot of different cultures, you know, okay Like so you got in a mythology but also in real in life. Yeah, I think there was Irish Gangsters in Chicago was a Moran's yeah, they were brothers. It's a thing bro. Yeah, like like, you know, like like that They sometimes they just siblings. Yeah, you know I'm saying yeah, like like um, bro. Sometimes they're just siblings. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Like the Kray brothers. The Krays. The Krays, they were twins. Yeah. But you got like Big Meach and Southwest T and BMF out of Detroit. Or in Long Beach, they had some guys called the twins. Yeah.

That came up with Snoop and Warrangy. You would hear about them in songs. It's a line in this DJ, a Wren G song. And that's G-Funk, right? It's like G-Funk is super bluesy, what's called hip hop, right? His song ends where he says, I still know how to make them ends.

And if you don't believe me, ask the twins like that's how it ends You know I'm saying like we basically saying like I'm still in the streets Yeah, and if you if you don't believe me go ask the twins like they they even more gangster than me I don't check my story out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah And like I got to know people from from other neighborhoods and if you bring up the twins every neighborhood has them Yeah, Sam where it's like, oh, yeah the twins I did You know, like it's like literally it's a thing in black cultures thing in white culture, you know, it's like, oh yeah, the twins I did. It's like literally, it's a thing in black culture, it's a thing in white culture, you know what I'm saying?

It's a thing, like if you're in a neighborhood and somebody is lucky enough to be born with a sibling that looks just like them, they're gonna automatically have an advantage, become local celebrities, you know what I'm saying? They're gonna run tricks on people and get over, you know? So then you decide to balance the morality. Exactly.

Yeah, and for that part, I did a lot of research in identical twins and the psychology of it. And I have two filmmaker friends that are from Northern California. These white dudes that came up in the North Bay. Noah and Logan Miller. They filmmakers came up as the North Bay. You know, Noah and Logan Miller, they filmmakers came up as baseball players first, you know, hard-scrabble guys, you know what I'm saying? Like, broke their way into Hollywood

with no nepotism, none of that, just all grind. You know what I mean? And they, kind of like, you know, I would talk to them, and eventually I was like, I gotta bring y'all on board officially with this, you know, like, and they became our twin consultants. Oh, interesting. And they worked with me and Mike,

specifically on, you know, what these guys would be like. Yeah. You know what I mean? They look at the time that they came up, you know, like their backstory, and just the concept of, like, you know, how Nolan and Logan describe it, is to them, everybody's weird.

Yeah. Because, like, they look at everybody, everybody's selfish, you know what because like they look at everybody everybody selfish You know say everybody's kind of like out to get them You know I mean like he was saying like when you have a identical twin relationship It automatically makes you like hyper conspiratorial Oh, yeah, you know I mean like you used to people staring at you. Yeah strangers coming up to you talking to you You know what I mean? Yeah asking you weird questions, right?

And it was also it was a funny time when when I was talking to you, you know what I mean? People asking you weird questions. Right. And it was also, it was a funny time when, when I was talking to them, and I realized, whenever I'm with them and in their presence, they always sit right next to each other, or they stand side by side. Yeah. And I asked them one day, I said, hey man, do you guys always do that with people?

And they say, yeah. And I said, is that for you guys, or is that for us? They said, it's for you. You know, they said, as soon as I got a problem with you, we'll split up, you know what I mean? So you can, and get in a position where you can only look at one of us, you know what I'm saying? So I thought that was so interesting.

You know what I'm saying? They know the effect. That they know the effect if they're not next to each other, it freaks people out, you know what I'm saying? What is the other guy? Exactly. Yeah. Which one am I talking to?

You know what I'm saying? Isn't that interesting? Yeah. But the concept of growing up like that and what that does to the psyche. It's funny because it was pretty seamless because very quickly I wasn't registering to Michael Jordan's. It worked.

It's just performance, man. It's the subtleties. Because it's not, you could go overboard quick, you know. But, and that's the thing about identical twins, if you know them, nine times out of ten, they have completely different personalities, but the differences between them are very subtle, you know what I mean?

Like they're around each other all the fucking time. So like they basically are the same person, but like subtly off, you know what I mean? But if you ever were to get them alone, different, then the differences really come out. And you did that through women. And just through structure, like I knew. But in terms of the acting.

Oh yeah, 100%. Knowing who they fell in love with, really differentiates the type of person that they are. And also a lot of pussy eating talk. Like who they fell in love with. Really differentiates the type of person that you are. You know what I'm saying? And also a lot of pussy eating talk. You know what I'm saying? I didn't realize that would be a through line. Yeah it is in the movie.

I mean we were having fun man. Like it's a lot of. It's a lot of. It's sexy man. Yeah a lot of talk about all that stuff. But that idea of, cause what I was trying to figure out is like why are vampires so sexy?

You know what I'm saying? Like why are they synonymous with sexuality? Yeah, why are they the sexy monsters? Why are they the sexy monsters? You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, you don't gotta say a sexy vampire. You just say vampire. Well there's an intimacy to it.

Exactly. And there's also, it's like a marriage. Yes sir. Right? Yeah, that, there's an intimacy to it. Exactly. And there's also, it's like a marriage. Yes, sir. Right? Yeah, yeah. That's what's so great about it. And the thing is, is like, you know, the vampire is synonymous with choice for some reason.

You know, like you have to have to be invited in. You know, where do they bite? They bite the neck. You know what I'm saying? Like it's a sexual situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? You gotta be close to somebody to the neck. You know what I'm saying? Like it's a sexual situation. You know what I mean? You gotta be close to somebody to do that.

With just a weird question, now the pussy eating thing, did you lean on that because, is it culturally stigmatized? No man, like honestly bro, where that came from, I had big cousins. I was like the twins. And that's the type of things they would talk about. And the whole thing was like,

he's out, his dad's a preacher. You know what I'm saying? He's the oldest. He got a bunch of little sisters. So what are his cousins, what's the kind of shit his older cousins are gonna tell him about? Like, sure, you know what I'm saying? And Smoke, the whole idea behind him and his performance

was that he's like a grandpa, you know what I'm saying? Like he's the caretaking twin. The other twin is a pimp, He's hyper-sexualized. If you ever meet those guys, what makes those guys those guys is they kind of have a hyper understanding of what the world is like from a female perspective. That's how they are able to convince women to do crazy shit for you. You know what I'm saying? So the whole idea was he would give him very usable accurate advice for that type of situation. That's where the idea came from. Well, I think the whole thing works really, really well. And I thought that the vampires

were sufficiently creepy. That's good. And I don't want to spoil the beat at the end, even during the credits, but okay. So it's, well, because people who like the blues are going to be excited by it. But did he play that last bit? He did. That's him on the guitar?

That's him. On that last song? The very end? guitar? That's him on that last song the very end Yeah, holy shit because you know, I've seen him a few times. I've had him in here I was just playing with his fucking pick yesterday Right there. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, that's him acoustic. Yeah. Oh my god No, he's on that electric lead. Um on a credit on an electric. Okay, so so that so that that is that is Eric Gills Yeah, and also Kingfish. Oh, yeah, I just I just met Kingfish Kingfish in the movies

Yeah, I saw him. Yeah scene but but that's Eric Gills you listen to there. Yeah. Oh, but that that last scene That's who you asking it about. Yeah. Yeah. Oh good adjustments. That's that's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah He's great. It's weird. It's weird seeing him play that right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you good. No adjustments, that's him a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's great. It's weird seeing him play that, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, they all started there. 100%. Yeah.

You know, but like he, you know, as he's gotten older, he's become more of a showman. His licks are different, you know what I mean? He'll just pop a couple off and then he'll just smile. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, it's great talking to you, man. It's a good movie. And likewise, bro, thank you, bro. I hope it does well for you. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, it's great talking to you, man. It's a good movie.

And likewise, bro, thank you, bro. I hope it does well for you. I appreciate that, man. There you go, folks. Again, Sinners opens in theaters this Friday. Hang out for a minute. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. minute. All right, people. We've got another Ask Mark Anything episode for full Marin subscribers

dropping tomorrow. These are bonus episodes where I answer the questions sent in by you like this one. As you prepare to direct your film, what personal challenges do you anticipate facing? How do you plan to tackle them? Anxiety and impatience. I think the biggest challenge is going to be to afford myself the confidence and space to know when a take is done, to know when a set is set up, to know what I'm looking for and not to be freaked out all the

time. Just to to realize that I've put a good team together and hopefully I will to afford me the space necessary to just focus on directing the film. Get the new Ask Mark Anything episode tomorrow. Sign up for the full Marin. Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.

Here's some classic Mark Marin guitar noodling. guitar noodling. I'm gonna be a rock star Boomer lives. Monkey, Lafonda, cat angels everywhere. And that was fucking take two, man.