WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1639 - David Harbour

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

David Harbour and Marc met in the garage seven years ago at the height of Stranger Things and the beginning of a new phase in David’s career. Now with the Marvel movie Thunderbolts coming out, David and Marc have both had surprising success in their careers, which leaves them both searching for things they can’t quite pin down. They’ll try to help each other out, while also discussing meditation, mortality, and the future of art and entertainment in a world of shorter attention spans. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nick? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's called WTF.

I imagine some of you have been here before. Nice to have you back. Today, I have David Harbour back, which is always exciting. I love that guy. I love him. We talked years ago and it was it was it was like a ride. I'm like I can get on this I can get on this roller coaster. I grew up with a similar Roller coaster and in a slightly different theme park. Let's do it. Let's get in it I was just fucking thrilled to have him back and You know, you know him he's uh, you know, he's the the guy the sheriff or stranger things and the guy the sheriff or on Stranger Things and

You know he's he did the show a while back. It was episode 921 in the archives He's been part of the Marvel Universe since the Black Widow movie and now he's in the new the new Marvel movie Thunderbolts I like them get a kick out of them. So look you guys You know we live in an age, this will be known as the when is everyone gonna shut the fuck up era. Just people blathering everywhere. I get overwhelmed and I don't know if I've talked about this specifically. Because look, we do almost an analog thing here.

Here at WTF Central, me and Brendan do this thing. This is what we do. We do an audio podcast, have from the beginning, we're audio guys, but in the world we live in now, it's almost like analog. And I always felt that, as did Brendan, that this was the most intimate and most engaging format and remains so. That's why we still do it this way

because audio is kind of magic. There's an intimacy to it that you live with it in your head and the way you engage with audio, especially talking is very different than video. But it's also, we are not on the big battlefield of, you know, memes and clips and everything else. And there's a certain insulation in that, but it's sort of a freedom.

It's a freedom that, you know, we don't care about being clipped, you know, and having reels and bits and pieces of content, as they call it, to go up online so people can flip through it or engage with the 30 seconds, a minute or two. We're not even on that playing field at all. And it's a fucking gift. It's a fucking gift.

Because I believe that long form interaction, long form conversation, and long form comedy, which is what I do, is still the most human sort of pastime. It's something that the brain has to settle into. It's something that you have to take in. It's something you have to follow and engage with in a full way, you know, all the way through, you know? And there's this idea that I push back against.

You know, I talked to a lot of young comics who come in here and they do specials, but they're doing specials that are a half hour long, 40 minutes long, 33 minutes long, 38 minutes long. And when I got into the game, you know, you did an hour, that was your job, you know, you were a headliner, you do an hour, 50 minutes to an hour to close the show. When you do a special, it's an hour, that was your job, you know, you were a headliner, you do an hour, 50 minutes to an hour to close the show. When you do a special, it's an hour.

And as time goes on, because of this idea that we don't have the attention span anymore to watch long form anything, that the attention span of people, because of data accumulated through algorithms, then made into a generalization about human beings ability to pay attention, to engage with something for more than a certain number of minutes, is sort of like the precedent set. And I think it's bullshit. And I have a really hard time knowing that this is the adjustment artists are making. Comics, whoever, musicians,

people who talk for a living, that it's been drilled into our head that people just can't do it anymore. they can't do it. They're distracted their attention span is is has been truncated shortened and the truth is is that it is those delivery systems those platforms the way that that that business is Structured that has caused that and and I don't think it's an ability for people to pay attention to things.

It's a matter of them wanting to or being engaged with it. But because everyone's accommodating this idea that you gotta keep going shorter and shorter, that's become the requirement. And I had this realization, I may have talked about it in conversation with somebody But I don't think I explored it on the show and I it came up in my thinking when I was talking to an NPR host In I don't know, Illinois or somewhere

That look, you know when we talk about crowd work comics or when you flip through your phone and you see all these bits and pieces of comics intentionally doing crowd work for the reason to be recorded at a club so they can post their clips to show people what they do Which is you know, basically Be in the moment to make fun of audience members. And again, I've said this before I look it's a skill set that you should have If that's you Like if if that is what you do, is like this is my mode of expression, this is me expressing myself.

So what do you guys do? How long you been together? What is that hat? Are you guys married? Where do you come from? Like if that is, and reacting to those questions, to strangers, if that's your expressive thing, that's your talent, that's what you want to say

to the world, then fine. I don't have a problem with it, I get it, it's comedy. And one of the great things about being a solo artist or an artist at all is that you create the space for yourself to do what you do, to get what you, how you express yourself out there and whatever it may be. You know, that is part of the freedom of it.

I mean, that's why I did it. Like, you know, I can, it doesn't matter what I do up there. It's my stage. And as long as I get laughs occasionally, then I'm doing the right thing. But anything outside of that, I can do whatever the fuck I want to do. You know, in terms of that stage.

It's a rare stage. You can sing, you can dance, you can act out, you can do whatever you want. The only basic requirement is that you get laughs, but if that's what you choose to do to express yourself, it should be yourself that you're expressing. And the idea that comics, you know, I would think get into it for that,

but now are beholden, like the idea that they, you know think, get into it for that, but now are beholden, like the idea that they have a freedom to express themselves, but yet they have to figure out how to do it quickly and in a way that will pop on a reel, in a way that honors the speed and pace and delivery system of TikTok or Instagram or any of these platforms, there's a context there that is a huge corporate endeavor

that primarily is to keep people on that thing, on that platform, and you're just serving those masters to do that so they can do that. Yet you're bending your entire will and creative sense of self to that format, which is short and has to grab people. And the more people you grab for your short little thing or you shitting on that guy who's got a weird haircut is what determines whether or not you are successful or that you may

possibly make a living. But there's no freedom of mind in that. There's no real expression in that, other than maybe being quick witted and having a spontaneous moment that is, who cares? But the idea that you can do whatever you want, and that some of these folks of any type of art form thinks they're doing that, but yet you're bending yourself to this context to fit the expectations of the platform delivering it. And with these platforms, it's quick and it just goes by.

And all you're looking for is people to go, ha, ha, ha, and click and get a follower. So you are just an appendage in a way. You are just part of this, the advertising effort, the sort of onslaught of these bits and pieces to keep people engaged with this larger corporate interest. And so whatever you think is the freedom of being expressive and all this freedom you have to do whatever you want and put it out into the world becomes very relative

to the world of those platforms. And it is innately not a long form world, not a storytelling world, not a world in terms of comedy at this point in time that really kind of shows people who you are, what your ideas are, where you're coming from. I mean, there's other people that that really kind of shows people, you know, who you are, what your ideas are, you know, where you're coming from. I mean, there's other people that do that kind of stuff,

but arguably they're doing it in a very limited format too, and everybody is now a broadcaster, and everybody is sort of operating in this zone of mania that is required to focus on broadcasting, whether it's sort of a hypothetical vulnerability or aggressive cultural criticism, there is a zone that people have to get in to be on broadcasting, whether it's sort of a hypothetical vulnerability or aggressive cultural criticism, there is a zone that people have to get in to be on a mic. I'm in it now in my own way.

But I just think that the cultural conversation is just this kind of sort of never-ending, infinite manic babbling that comes through you in little bits and pieces in order to grab your attention for corporate interests. And I think I've kind of discussed this a bit with Chris Hayes when I talked to him about his book is that people are perfectly capable of maintaining an attention span for as long as the thing that they are interested in continues to engage me. So any generalization based on millions of people, you know, watching one thing that they are interested in continues to engage me. So any generalization based on millions of people,

you know, watching one thing that gives data through an algorithm about how many people tuned out or didn't watch all the way through, it's not relative to what people can really pay attention to or how they can engage. But if we keep just operating at the behest of that, you know, we will just become these kind of reactive monkeys in a cage looking for dopamine hits off of short bursts of bullshit. And I just think that it is the enemy,

and it is a very specific corporate enemy in the form of platforms designed to maintain your attention to personal creativity Diminishes your depth Diminishes your ability to express yourself honestly or the way you want to anyway. I don't know it was on my mind So look, it's the final leg of my tour leading up to my HBO special taping I'm in Toronto at the Winter Garden this Saturday, May 3rd for two shows. Burlington, Vermont. I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5th and one show on Tuesday, May 6th. Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I'll be

at the Music Hall on Wednesday, May 7th. Then it's my HBO special taping at the BAM Harvey Theatre in Brooklyn on May 10th for two shows. Two shows there. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Most of those shows are pretty close to sold out. I think there's still imports some tickets in Portsmouth. Maybe a couple tickets for the taping, but but I don't know, but go check it out if you're interested in coming. Okay look, David Harbour and I have done this sort of deep deep word jam before. Deep thought jam, deep talk jam, and it was a thrill to have him back. Thunderbolts opens in theaters including IMAX tomorrow, May 2nd. This is me reconnecting with David Harbour.

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Discover bestselling adventure stories on Audible. ["Best Selling Adventure Stories"] All right, so it's been a long time since our last appointment. Seven years or something, right? I know, I can't believe it. How's your progress? I mean, aren't you going to like ask me to cough and you put the rubber glove on? No, no, no, it's a different kind of doctor. Sorry, sorry.

I'm doing the... We gotta make some sense of some shit, man. Oh man. What? Good luck to us. Well, here's what I was gonna tell you about the cat. Can we hire a professional? Oh yeah.

The professionals, do they really know? I don't know anymore. I can't... Yeah, that's a great question. How long have you been in therapy for? Well, I wasn't know anymore. Like I can't. Yeah, that's a great question. How long you been in therapy for? Well, I wasn't in therapy. You know, I've been in and out because as I get older, I realized like if I'm going to go, I got to know exactly why I'm going.

I'm not going to fuck around. That's an interesting concept. I'm the opposite. Really? Yeah. I'm just like, keep me in. Just keep me in the whole time. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just found that after a while, if you're a smart person, what are you really using them for? You know, they're just like... Well, I guess it's some kind of self-exploration, right? It's an hour of your day where you're going into these recesses of your psyche

where you don't really wanna go alone. But don't you do that anyways? Oh, don't wanna go alone. Yeah, yeah. And you wanna have at least someone Intelligent who's navigated? Okay waters sure. Okay. Okay. Let's say you do that, right? and then you know you find something out and With the idea is that that's proactive. It's gonna help you

How is it not just like when I when I make discoveries that imply something about my behavior? The the next step should be like long well, I'm going to try to change that. And then it just becomes like, oh, yeah, I had that memory. That was good. I mean, theoretically, there are different types. There's like the CBT version, which is the cognitive behavioral thing, which is where you're actually going in to fix a problem. And then there's what I like, which is like deep Freudian psychoanal which is where you're actually going in to fix a problem. And then there's what I like, which

is like deep Freudian psychoanalysis, where you're just going into weird Eddie's and whirlpools of the psyche. What, is there one guy left doing that in New York? Are you with the one guy? What is he, 90? Yes. And he has me lie on the couch, and he's behind the whole thing,

man. It's like I'm back in 1920s Vienna. Like it's just like, that's just nostalgic, Dave. I... I... Hard disagree. I mean, if we're going to do something, which we both agree might be worthless,

you might as well do it in the most worthless way possible. The classic, the classic. Yes, like let's go to the hard... Yeah. All right, so you're doing that and you're doing like, you know He doesn't talk much. Yes, exactly. But I mean, it's really the mystery, right? Yeah, that's what you're getting into is that the unconscious or the subconscious which isn't conscious Do you feel like you get there? Do you feel like you really get there?

I mean like I know that's the idea. My life improved in the eight years I've been with this new guy. Weekly? My life has improved, yes. No Zooms with the old man. When we are out of town, we do phone calls. Oh yeah, you don't want him on the FaceTime. I've barely seen his face. Like, yes, you walk in the room.

You lay down. I try not to look at him. We do have a momentary interaction of, how are you doing? Good, how are you? Which is completely meaningless and insane. Because I'm going to get into the fact that I'm not okay. And then you lie on the couch with him behind you and you just go into it. And hopefully the idea is that you are unpacking or uncovering things that you

don't understand in ways that you don't understand. So it's not the literal of what you're saying, it's how you're saying it or what you're focused on. Or you know what I mean? This is the mystery where hopefully it becomes more impressive than just some guy on the street that you're telling your problems to and he says go do this. Yeah, but ultimately that's a 50-50 proposition. Okay.

I mean, it is true. And the training is archaic and it is from Vienna in the 30s. We don't exactly know what the training is. There's a lot of disagreement. But don't you already know what's wrong with you? I mean, how old are you? No, that's the sad thing. That is the sad thing.

I'm turning 50 and yes, at this point I should, but I still look to someone slightly older to tell me what's wrong with me. Well, okay. Well, here's what I was, because I, you know, I, I avoided medication, you know, for years. Yeah. Oh, okay. So you're, okay, but wait, here's the story. Oh, I can't wait. Here's the story.

Does it relate to the cat at all or no? Yes. Oh my God, I can't wait for this. And this was profound, because like, okay, for me, I know I'm not a depressive, and I'm not really, I have anxiety problems that are debilitating it on some level to the point of obsessiveness, right? So that's the trip for me, and I've lived with it because I've always been like,

well, you know, I mean, there's a lot of reasons to feel this way. And then if no one else is, then they're the dummies. Of course, you're just alive. Yeah, yeah. And it's just sort of like, so what if I, if what the bit I'm doing about it is like, you know, I don't know what resting mind is.

Cause if my brain rests even for a second, it goes like, so you want some things to worry about? I got some stuff. Let's pop open the folder. None of them could, you know, they could all happen, but they probably won't, but we could work them out, you know. So, so it's catastrophic. Okay. Fine. Yes. But I've always been against the SSRIs only because, amen. You know, I feel, I feel them and I feel what they do. And, and what I've been saying lately is that like, I'm not sure that all of my creativity might come from this. Like mining for gold in a river of panic. So, but here's what I'm saying.

You're aware of getting rid of your demons? You may be getting rid of the best things about you. Yeah, but the big, a bit of what you used to do is like, you don't get rid of them, they're just inside you. And you, they've been taken hostage. So, you know, people are going like, how you feeling? You're like, great. And there are going like, how you feeling? You're like, great.

And there's some guy inside you go, get me out of here. Anyway, so here's what happens with the cat. And it spoke to me. All right, so I go away and my cat has anxiety. He freaks out apparently. Like to the point where like it was just, first it was just vomiting and now then he gets colitis and he has diarrhea all over the house when I'm gone.

And now it's escalated to him beating the shit out of the other cats. Like I came home from being away for like three days and all the cats were hissing at each other. This little fucker had fucked everything up. He's shitting everywhere. You know, it's a disaster. You know, there's piss everywhere.

And he's just fucking lost his mind. And my vet says, well, we should put him on the Prozac because that'll help his behavior. Yes, right? So I project all of my feelings about Prozac onto the cat. But I think the moment of profundity is that my struggle is like, okay, so this cat shits all over everything and fucks with all the other cats

to the point where there's total chaos. But don't I want him to be his authentic self? And how is that not relatable? I mean, cause it's the same thing with me, right? It's like, you know, like, why would I want to taper or temper? Well, I mean, okay. I mean, this is where I actually do have a really interesting rabbit hole,

worm hole bone to pick with you. You talk a lot about the search for the self, right? Yeah. I mean, that's so interesting to me because I've been on this kick too for like 50 years, right? 50. I'm sorry, I guess not when I was like two. But the- Well, that's where it got lost.

What about the idea of no self? I mean, how about the, have you ever traveled down that path of the Buddhist path of no Atman? Sure. Sure. Sure. I'm kneeling with it right now. Just abandon it. Well, I put my cat on Prozac and I now see that he has no self. He's lost. He's untethered in a way. But he's not happy. He's not blissfully sort of wandering around filled with interbeing. That's not what I'm projecting. No, no. What I'm projecting is like, who am I?

Why did you do this to me? Before I had purpose, I could beat up on that guy, I could shit on your head. Who am I without shitting on the bed and beating up on the older guy? Yeah. Okay, well, okay, fine. So let's say there's no self.

Okay. Fine. I'll indulge this. Yeah. Fantastic. This ancient philosophy for like tens of thousands of years you'll indulge. Yes. Yeah. Well, what makes them right?

They're just trying to deal with problems too. I mean, like the approach is like, well, there's no self. Well, that makes this suffering easier. Correct. And isn't that the point? Is it? I don't know. I mean, is that what you want on your, you know, your gravestone?

Like, well, you know, he didn't believe he was anybody and that helped him God bless I mean I guess it's less I guess it's more about the attachment to this idea of self okay that starts to become punishing and neurotic and you're shitting and beating up all the other cats. Like, isn't there some way to realize that the other cats are you as well? Yes. Okay. When I go down the rabbit hole of no self,

what I usually come up with is like, I have one, he just happens to be seven. But you really wanna keep him around. You don't want him to grow up and be- Well, no, I'm protecting him and it's gone too far. Right, right. Okay, then I think we're in the same boat. Yeah, so like- My therapy may work in a sense to do that as well.

No, no, I'm sure it does. But, but what, what then, what then what it requires of you, um, like I, I used to, I had this line where I said, you know, the monster I created to protect the kid inside is sometimes hard to manage. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, but so, so the challenge is, and I'm there too. It's ego, right?

I guess it's ego. I mean, I, you know, they're. I mean, the definition kind of works. But for me, if you're aware of that, so the challenge becomes, well, how do I live in that kid long enough for him not to be afraid at this age? Yes. So, cause I feel it. I can be vulnerable in certain situations,

usually with strangers for an hour, people I respect, and then they go away. I don't check in with you tomorrow. I'm not going to be like, I might have tried the first time. It's like, hey, what are you doing? What do you mean, what am I doing? I think there was a text or something seven years ago, maybe. Hey, I'm in New York.

Yeah, and that was it. What's up? Yeah, nothing. What do you mean, what's up? I'm not going to get back to that. I'm not gonna get back to that. I'm not gonna respond to that. My god, they're terrifying What do you mean? It's terrifying you heterosexual older men trying to get a cup of coffee together. Oh god It would we're doing it. This is what would happen. Yeah, but this is for the public privately for posterity privately I don't know. What do you want from me? What a nightmare. Yeah, Jesus, what are we gonna talk about?

I'm glad we nipped that friendship in the bud. Thank God. I was carrying that for fucking seven years. That fucker doesn't like me, can you? Now you know. Yeah, finally. So the challenge is like, how do you live in that vulnerability? And I think that, you know, when you're an actor,

you know, you at least are afforded the exploration of utilizing it or sort of viewing creative ways to sort of stay away from it. But you can, when you're in a situation where the risk is only failure in front of people, right? That you can risk that vulnerability in a way. What do you mean? Well, I mean, like, if you're in an intimate relationship Yes.

and you get to that place where you're like, I'm finally comfortable and I'm vulnerable, then you know what, how are you gonna trust that person anymore? Do you? Sure, okay. I mean, I'll have to go over that next Thursday with, uh, with the therapist. Exactly. With the old Freudian. That's all I'm here to do. That's perfect. I'm going

to start with that one. How are you, David? I'm okay. How are you? Okay. Sit on the couch. I got one from Marin. If you finally get vulnerable to somebody, how can you trust them? How can you possibly trust them? I mean, it's an interesting conundrum for sure. Yeah, but the self thing, like if we even just take it to like seven years old, it's like that is the real situation is whatever reason you stopped letting that thing develop is because you were afraid of being hurt, right? Or you didn't want to get hurt, right? Too sensitive, we're too sensitive, no?

I guess so. Wait, what do you mean? You're saying that you stopped developing the self because of that? You stopped maturing? Well, I'm saying that the emotional vulnerability of whatever, it's my belief that at some point, your sensitivity or your lack of proper parenting

left you too terrified to sort of like exist in the world. So you build this other thing that gets you through other periods of your life or whatever the fuck it is. Yes, for sure. Yeah, so what I'm saying is that like, how do you make that kid not afraid? And the only way is to sort of like, well, come on out, let's just hang out for a little while.

And then one thing happens, like if my cat looks at me wrong, I'm like, well, that fucking thing doesn't like me. You know, like there's a sensitivity to it. So I don't know about the whole no self thing, because I'm still stuck in this zone of like, a very immature self, to go back to no self, Jesus Christ. I mean, that's like.

I mean, you said it's going back, it should be going forward, right? Like you're letting go, you're letting go of this idea that you have to protect this kid or that this kid is anything at all. Well, it's just an idea, but like when I feel the struggles that I have as an adult,

you have to define them somewhere, right? I have to like, well, this is because of this. I have to do that before I go like, well, all of this is bullshit. Okay, yes, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. I mean. What happened?

You started the rabbit hole. I know, now I'm like so swimming in it. I mean, it's such a wormhole of now we get into like consciousness itself, right? And like sort of meaning and what we're doing in time, like what we're doing with our time. And that's really the only thing. So I guess the idea of no self allows you theoretically, this is what I've occasionally had glimpses of, to be alive in the present moment without, and to exist in a full way without the definition of these things where, oh, I have to be a certain thing.

I can just be truly an authentic non-self in the present moment. And so if somebody sees you on the screen and goes, hey, David Harbour, you're like, but not today. Yeah, exactly. It's true. And so if somebody sees you on the screen goes, hey, David Harbour, you're like, but not today. Exactly. I'm shitting on the other cats. You'll excuse me.

Oh man. Not today. Not today. Well, I mean, but that is like why it's perfect to act because then you can just do that. You can like, you know, but there's- It is what I love, yeah. But that, because it's present.

Yes. And it allows you the mask of, you know, you can be your authentic vulnerability, all that stuff. That's right. Without having to own this is me. Right, or to either be judged or think you're being judged. Correct. You can be as embarrassing as you want to be.

Sure, and people are like, that was cringy. I know that guy that I'm playing. He's... Exactly. Exactly. Not a comfortable fellow, that guy. I mean, I think that's the thing about personality, though, where I see that people feel pretty rigid in terms

of defining personality, personality of others. And I feel like we have all kinds of creatures within us. Absolutely. And all kinds of selves or all kinds of, you know, we're. Look, when you're needy, you'll do anything to accommodate just about anybody. So. Amen. Amen.

So all of a sudden you're in something, you're like, who is this guy? Yeah, exactly. Well, it's working for them. Exactly. Yeah. Or any sort of, you know, oh, you're like, who is this guy? Well, it's working for them. Exactly. Or any sort of, you know, oh, I never thought I would do that or I never thought I would be that.

It's like, just put yourself in the right situation and of course you can do anything. It's like Sidney Pollack and Michael Clayton, people were fucking incomprehensible. Exactly. Yeah. And it's totally true. And it's why they can't treat anything effectively

or anything, because no one knows. Yeah. I think it's also an effective way that we distance ourselves from each other. Yeah. It feels very, like, you know, we call each other monsters or you're this or you're that. Yeah, yeah.

It's just because of the fears of our own potentialities. Well, I think, right, and then I think there's a thing with me because I do like, you know, my main performance is being me. Correct, that must be extremely difficult. Well, it's pretty broad, you know, because like I'm doing standup, right?

So, you know, that's a context. Right. And the only requirement is theoretically to do the job you should get laughs here a context. Right. And the only requirement is theoretically to do the job, you should get laughs here and there. Right. Right. But like I got, you know, my thinking and feelings go much beyond it. Right.

So for me to kind of wrestle it into that and then kind of put it into that mode, it's pretty specific because I'm broad. You know, most guys, you like, that guy does the thing with the thing, right? I don't do the thing with the thing, right? I don't do the thing with the thing. Maybe in a...

You have the neurotic. Kind of, but I'm more cranky. I think, I have a problem with the word neurotic because I overthink, but I'm not, I am self-aware. So what I'm exploring... And you say neurosis doesn't have self-awareness? Well, I'm saying that as a character, neurosis is a guy that's sort of like,

oh, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. I'm not that guy. I'm like, all right, so this is what's happening and I think it's this. Right, okay. So I'm gonna go all the way through. I think people would rather just have the neurotic thing because then they could put me in a box. I think as I get older, I'm just in all the way through. I think people would rather just have the neurotic thing because then they could put me in a box.

I think as I get older, I'm just in the cranky box. Yeah, that's true. It's true, I put you in that box. Yeah, yeah. So it's not neurotic. I think about things, but you know, I'm angry. I feel like neurotic is a sort of like illuminated, annoying vulnerability.

Illuminated annoying vulnerability is neurotic. Yeah, okay, I get you. You prefer crank. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, okay. It's easier for people to, it's more palatable. Cranky just comes off as like, wow, this guy does have problems.

Right, it's less pretentious, it's more grounded, It's more real. Yeah. I got you. I got you. I like cranky. Yeah. But so the success of, well, this is a Buddhist problem, right? Is that what we're talking about? I guess so. Yeah. I mean, this is where it's taken me. Really? Kind of. Yeah. I mean- Like what? Are you going to things? I mean, a little bit, yeah. I mean... Like what, are you going to things?

I mean, a little bit, yeah. Which ones? Going to things. I got guys, you know, there's like various monasteries and things with people. Oh yeah? Yeah, oh God, yeah. Oh, so you're doing that. I got a buddy from college who became a monk with Thich Nhat Hanh down in Escondido.

Oh, yeah. Go down there and hang out with the monks, do some mind-filling in Escondido. I don't know if that's a globally acknowledged place of spiritual retreat, Escondido. Is it, where is that? Just above. Is it north? Yeah, south of here. So it's like, you know, just above San Diego.

Sure, very popular with spiritualists. Mecca. Do they all wear sandals and Hawaiian shirts? They walk up the mountain barefoot. No, it's crazy though. I mean, they do have a, you know, it's a little monster. What's the discipline? It's Zen. Uh-huh.

You know, they got rattlesnakes and black widow spiders. On purpose? Yeah. They ship them in from South Texas. It's part of the process. Just to murder people. These are the obstacles you have to overcome. Here's your no self.

Yeah, here you go. But like when you get there, all the monks must be like, oh, this is going to be a lot. Absolutely. Just roll their eyes. It's part of the compassion response. It's just like, oh, I didn't have time for this. I do tend to show up on, it's funny, because I have an inn with the monks. They have the days where everyone can come for the wine.

What a braggart. I know, name drop all day. And I'll show up on something called lazy days, which the monks have lazy days where they sit around and they just jerk off and eat or drink. I guess. I didn't see much of it. I saw the eating portion.

But it is, you know, I do show up and I'm like, you guys don't have to do the spiel for me. It's all right, I've read the books. We can just like, hang out and, you know, look at the Black Widows. Yeah, and the sky. But yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, it is sort of a journey because I've been on,

I mean, I've been on the ancient Indian sort of philosophical tip. I started with the whole Vedanta, which is all about realization of self. And then, you know, meditation on the Upanishads and the ancient Vedas and these things about Brahman and about the fundamental reality and it's almost like I imagine like the Lynch Transcendental Meditation. So you're tapping into this field and this world that is self, that they define as self. Well yeah, I mean some people, like Lynn, my late girlfriend, she did it twice a day.

The T.M.? No matter what. Yeah. Really? No matter what. no matter what. Yeah. Like if she's on set, I gotta go. 20 minutes. Wow, no way. Yep.

Amazing, and did it, and it was just a practice that she loved. That's it. But I think she- You think it helped her more than the therapy? Oh, totally. I think it was- Really? Because she wasn't really that kind of person,

but these people who really do that thing, I think it is foundational. And enabled, well, I mean, she was very charismatic and open and caring, but she had a thing. I think it grounds you in something that is, it's hard to even define, but if it works, you're grounded, dude. Yes.

Was hers visualization? I don't know exactly what her process was, but she could go right in. I'd wake up and she'd already be in it, and part of me is sort of like, but we just slept. I mean, what do you need to wake up and do this? Right. But she was-

Different kind of concentration. That's right, but she was so good at it, it was like, she was really in. Like I'd look at her and be like, that's a little creepy. Because she locked right in. Can you do that? I mean, yeah. Well, I mean, I started doing some of that stuff.

And then you know what I got into was you ever go back and listen to Ram Dass? I haven't really. Oh, man. I don't know if I'm a searcher enough. Really? Really? Yeah. See, I thought that I think't really. I don't know if I'm a searcher enough. Really? Really? See, I thought that I think you are. I mean, that would be... Yeah, but I'm more of like, you know, there's part of me that is, but there's part of me that wants to work it out in my own way. I see. Not listen to gurus or...

Yeah, right. And sometimes I get there and it's surprising, you know, for me, you know, and then somebody like you would go like, yeah, but they've been talking about that for 10,000 years and like, yeah, but I just discovered it on my own without medicine. Part of the fun. Yeah. But so I'm more, in terms of spiritual searching, I'm dismissive of process. Dismissive of process? Yes. Like, if you're gonna give me a dogma of any. You know, cause I- Dismissive of process? Yes.

Like, like if you're going to give me a dogma of any kind. Oh, I see. You know, even if it's just sitting for 15 minutes, you know, I'm going to be like, there's got to be another way, but I don't know that there is. Well, I mean, I mean the interesting concept of like what you get to, I think, and again, this is all my, you know, armchair book. Just in case you're taking David Marber as a guru or a meditation master. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But theoretically, I mean, the idea of Zen at its nth form is that it's all individual, right? Is that it's all just sort of like your own meditative path through this world. It doesn't have form. Right. Well, like my biggest, my newest revelation was like, you know, I'm a, well, you know, I'm a recovering addict. Yeah, yeah. And I have that thing on all levels. And, you know, right now I'm like, you know, I'm

doing these nicotine pouches. Is this a sponsor? No, no. Okay. No. But like they're so good. You look like you're just chewing that. No, I just put them in the thing. No, no, okay. No, but like they're so good What you look like you're just chewing that no, I just put them in the thing and you get a little nicotine So but but this is a manageable park it right? Yeah addiction. Why you need come on when I mean I do I Can't believe I've come to my dealer in a garage Investigated yeah, that's right. You park it, right? You've investigated this.

Yeah, that's right, you park it. That's a- I know all about this. I used to do, I did the Nicorette for like two weeks. I've done, I did that for years. I can't get a, but what I said on stage was one night, it's like, you know, it's like, this is manageable. I'm a fucking addict.

And if this is what it's gonna take, if this is all it takes for me on a daily basis to hold back the big empty, I'll do it. Yes, but if I was spiritual, I'd embrace the big empty. There you go. And see, that's the thing. It's like we're all running away from our suffering in all these various ways and we just need to sit.

Or maybe not just suffer anything, but existential terror. Yes. So I guess that's suffering. I mean, you sound like you're suffering even when you say it. That the, the, the awareness of mortality will work. And then the mundane, you know, issues of shame.

I mean, of course, I mean, but you know, the interesting thing about the Zen stuff is that's like basic level entry level, like you talk about figuring it out. That's entry level. I know. They sit around and meditate on their bodies dying. Like they sit around and meditate on the rotting of their bodies. Yeah.

And how this body will die for, you know, it's like the first meditation that you do. And do they do that until they die? No, you sort of figure it out, I guess. And at a certain point you're like, yeah, it's like the first meditation that you do. And do they do that until they die? No, you sort of figure it out, I guess. And at a certain point you're like, yeah, that's cool. Oh, how you can let it go. You let go of that. Yeah. I mean, there's a-

How you doing with that one? I mean, terrible. Absolutely awful. Uh, it's, I don't know. Well, I mean, it's the only really thing to talk about is death, right? There is an incredible, you know, I do love the Vietnamese Buddhist sort of thing. It's a little different than the Tibetan thing. There's a video of Thich Nhat Hanh with a child and the child is like, is asking about

death. He's like, does death really exist? And this, you know, the old monk is just like, absolutely. There is no life without death. It's like, does death really exist? And this, you know, the old monk is just like, absolutely. Like there is no life without death. Right. And the kid is just looking for the reincarnation answer or whatever. But it's, I mean, I guess it's a little more complex. Where's that kid now? He's got those backs, those nicotine backs, just covered, he's soaking in a tub of them,

trying to push away the suffering of that moment. I guess the, you know. Well, that's interesting. So that is, the existential terror is the suffering of every moment. So unless you really deal with that at the beginning or at a core level, you're kind of locked in. You have to transcend that fear.

Well, you have to understand that the body dies and something called impermanence and emptiness. So the fact of the matter is like, nothing's permanent. I've been fucking with that. And I think the grasping of the permanence, and then even the idea of emptiness. There is no real Mark Maron, there's no real David Harbour. It's like there's a voice box, there's a this, there's that,

there's a body that's gonna die, it's all gonna move. But it's making its mark. Especially when it's shitting on all the other cats. Exactly. I'm sorry, it wasn't, it was beating up the other cats, shitting on the floor, yeah. But yeah, so that's like, you know, where you begin with this stuff is that,

you know, it's funny, there is a paradox, there's a paradox too though in this where they believe that the body dies for sure, but they say that there's no birth and no death. Okay. And so there's just something called, like even when it's your birthday in Buddhism, it's just your continuance day.

Yeah, right. Because something continues. Yeah, it's just a live day. Now I, in my egotistical, uh, you know, nature, my desire for self transcendence or whatever, like you go into reincarnation, I went into a big kick a couple months ago with a, with a past lives. That's why I can't be as bare- No, but it's not real.

I mean, it's my bullshit. It's, you know, the real people will laugh at you for this. Right, yeah. But no, but I went down the road to make sure that my quote unquote soul was preserved. And I was met the, you know, little kid from Egypt that I was and the spider. Oh, Egypt. was and the spider. Yeah, the spider. That was a...

And how did that work for you? It was a hypnotist, hypnotherapist. And you go under... Another clinician. PhD, MD, DDS, nurse practitioner. Yeah, he had the gold label. And yeah, we're going to count you down from, you know, you're walking down a staircase and now you're in a corridor.

What's the door in front of you? What color is it? Red. Yeah. Because there's a door to your right. What color is that? It's red. Yeah. Because there's a door to your right. What color is that? It's green. Okay, we're going to open that door.

Five. Do you have a choice of doors? Like, let's make a deal. I don't know. I mean, I guess she determined the door. Oh, interesting. Yeah. She hit my tits.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it was based on my color or not. Because, you know, I thought it was at first. I was like, oh yeah, you don't want to go in the red door. Sure. You want to go in the green door. Red's bad. Yeah, sure. It's clearly traffic lights. Yeah, yeah. Your psyche go in the red door. You want to go in the green door. Red's bad. Yeah, sure. Clearly traffic lights.

Your psyche works in traffic light terminology. But yeah, but you know, go in this door. And then every time I did it with her, I did it several times, and every time I did it with her, she'd always make me turn to the right and go in that door, no matter what color the door was. So I think it was sort of a shtick.

Really? But yeah, you go into the room, it's a room of your subconscious, room of your understanding and you, and you know, what's in the, what's the room? It's like, oh, it's a, you know, cathedral, there's windows, there's ivy on the wall. Oh, okay, let's go check out the ivy.

Oh yeah, it doesn't look so good. It's a little like murky blue. Oh, let's get a garbage can. Let's take all the ivy, let's put it, let's ask the ivy who it is. Yeah. And you know, then the spider walks in the room. And you're like, that's me.

Yeah. When we go back to the spider's life, we go back through the spider's life. Okay. And he bit somebody. Oh, that fucker. He fell. You can't get through life.

He felt terrible about it. Oh, he did, the spider felt bad about it. I mean, this is again where it sort of breaks down because it becomes like, so then he was forced out of the forest. The spider was. And died in some desert. I think you're right at the precipice of writing a children's book. I think you just pitched me a children's book. I've really achieved. I've really got somewhere with all this therapy

and all this searching. You can write a children's book. Amazing. It's like, well, that's why, you know, who was it? Bruno Bettelheim, you know, wrote an entire book of psychoanalysis of fairy tales. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's sort of like, I think these kind of archetypes

or whatever they are, they are historical and mythological. And I will say like therapeutically, there's no, it doesn't matter if the past life thing is real or not, it's happening imaginatively in your psyche for some reason, for some narrative. Yeah, I guess, I don't know if I'd go there. If you learn something from that narrative, who cares? Well, and I think that's how you're approaching

the Freudian therapy too, is that you're, you know. That's exactly right. Right, you're filling yourself up with possibilities and different ways to interpret things, right? Yeah, and sort of carving out your own narrative reality. And I do find that like for me personally, because we've talked on the previous podcast about the problem with, I've been through like medications

and I've been through the rigmarole and that side of the equation. No more? No, I still am. I still do go through it, but I go through it a lot less. You know, partially it's age, but partially it's because you carve out and craft a narrative. Right, right, right. That works.

A reality that works for you. Yeah, yeah. And where you have some self-understanding and some compassion. So that, I think the better word then is for all the exercises of exploration is it's informing your narrative. Yes, that's correct, yes. Right, I get that. And then, but like.

And I mean, the interest in acting comes from a, an interest in the same thing of carving narratives, but it's a little more chaotic because you're doing it for in service of something else that you may not have chosen. Yeah, but the more you inform your own narrative, the more possibilities you have in creating narratives, I would think. Why not? Yes.

Right? I mean, but you don't fuck with Young? Sure, I fuck with Young. I fucking, you know what I, I'll tell you how much I fuck with young. Yeah, I fucking you know what I don't say how how how much I fucked with you Yeah, I ordered on Amazon not like four months ago a red book. Have you ever seen this book of young? I don't know. Okay. It's about like this big. It's the size of a Bible Yeah, it's like 300 bucks or something and you put it out. It's the illuminated red book manuscripts of, it's basically just a rant. Like it's just him on a rant.

I started reading it and it's insane. And I was bored to tears. I put it down, but I do like, I do like some of his, some of his stuff. It's good that you can acknowledge boredom and you don't force yourself to like, I gotta, I gotta get this. I couldn't do it.

I can't do it anymore. I could when I was younger, I mean with Thomas Pynch and all that stuff. But I think with Young, it's like, if you're gonna look at the cockfight, I think, between Young and Freud, you know, as Freud was attaching everything to either mythology or transference and mother issues,

and Young was like, I'm gonna take it all on in a vague way. Yeah, that's true. That's true. You pussy. We're talking mandalas, baby. I like them as gunfighters. That'd be a good movie. Alchemy.

Yeah, yeah. Fuck with that. Do a little more blows, Sigi. That'll help you out. Yeah, I mean, I suppose you take it on in a more imaginative way and you sort of open it up. Yeah, I wish I was more, like, I think my struggle for the self that lives in the world has been so hard that that's been my primary focus,

is how do I accept me as opposed to like, why not get rid of it all? You know, like it's been such, it's like I'm 61 and I'm finally comfortable in my skin most of the time. Oh, okay. Yeah. Congrats.

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, but if I gain five pounds, it's all good. Right. I'm glad it's still that tenuous. Oh, of course. It's like every day's fucking tenuous. It's like, yeah. You know, like, yeah.

Oh, man, I don't like to hear you say that. It's from 61. Yeah, but is this the thing? Yes, I guess it is. And I guess, well, I guess that's the search is to get real comfortable living in that present moment. Yeah, well, I mean.

And to be like, this is what we have. Well, that's the interesting thing about the type of stage work I do, because I can make it present. Like, you know, crowd work is a big thing now, and that's not really, you know, that requires immediacy. But when you're on stage, and I'm sure you've had the experience too,

even in a character where you're sort of like, oh, what's that thing on the floor? Oh, for sure. So, and that is, those are the best moments. Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. I think I told you, I tell you about that time I saw Bury Child.

I feel like I told you. It's like it was one of the greatest pieces of theater I ever saw because it was Terry Kenny played the brother. Was he the vet? I think so. The guy comes in at the end with all the corn. So it's like, it's Gary Sinise's production. And there's that scene, it's towards the end.

I think it might be the last bit where he walks in with all the shit fucked up corn. And one of the corn cobs falls in that moment and it just starts rolling down the stage. And I'm like, this is the best thing that ever happened in theater. Because the corn rolling upstaged the entire moment and they all had a sit in it.

You know? Yeah, it's fantastic. It's the best. I love that stuff too. I love that stuff. But yeah, the present, you know, oh fuck man. I had that with Chris Walken and I saw a fellow in the park when I was like 14 years old.

Chris Walken as Iago and like he's on stage in Central Park doing this monologue about Iago and hating the moor and a little squirrel just came up on stage at him and he just stopped and looked at him and went, bah, this is the greatest moment. Really? That's the best moment. like just came up on stage at him, and he just stopped and looked at him and went, bah! It was the greatest moment. Really? That's the best moment.

It was incredible. That's the best moment in the history of Shakespeare. Yeah, it was incredible. Probably. Yeah, but those are those moments that, like, and I just was watching a documentary on Andy Kaufman, who, Kaufman, Andy Kaufman, it's a new documentary.

Okay. It's called Thank You Very Much. Now, like, youman, Andy Kaufman. It's a new documentary. It's called Thank You Very Much. Now, like, you know, I appreciate him, and I have him in the proper amount of respect and awe, but I can't say as myself that I necessarily got laughs or enjoyed it that much. It was more of a sort of like, I get it. An intellectual thing, yeah.

Yeah, but after watching this documentary, I'm like, oh, right, well, this is deeper than I anticipated. Because, you know, the director really went after his, you know, youth, like, what made this guy? And he was a big TM guy. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and, you know, and he, there's a piece of film on there,

I gotta watch it again, because I want to write it down, where he asks the Maharishi a question at one of those big conferences where he says, well, what's the point of entertainment? Wow. You know, and I can't remember what the Maharishi said, but he was talking about there's a space in between the jokes that that's what it's all about.

So. So he just extended that space. That's right. Yeah, he kept pushing it. And the space that he would create through discomfort or challenge or things that had no definition, that he could create a space

where an audience would be like, what is happening? You know, and is this, what do we, how are we supposed to, and that is bringing somebody into a present because you transcend all their expectations and you subvert them, whether it's intentional or not. So they don't, like the present is like, this is completely out of the context of anything we expected and I don't know what to do with this. Yes.

And that, that, that is the present. Yes. So, that's kind of brilliant. I like that that is the present. Yes. So yes, that's that's kind of brilliant. I like that. I like that. You know, what story of yours I quote all the fucking time. Jesus, here we go. All the time. It's like one of the best stories about acting I ever heard. And I talk I told the story a million times. It's just about it was you talking about how you're you know, you're in a play like it's on Broadway and you're about to go on. That moment where you're like, you're hearing the guy saying the line

that's gonna get you on stage and you go, somebody give me a script. Yeah. That is the best thing ever. It was like six months into the run too. The best fucking thing ever. How much more present do you need to be? Yeah.

And then you just go out and your body just remembers it. Oh my god, that moment. Absolutely terrifying. But the fact that like there's nothing's going to help you. I'm just completely. You're going to start rifling. Trying to land the plane. There's nothing.

Yeah. So do you now at this point, do you have a daily practice then? Of the meditation and stuff? I mean, I'm kind of going through trying to find something, to be honest. And I guess when I'm in it, I do feel, when I'm able to do it, I do feel better. I did it a bit during COVID with the Headspace app.

Oh, okay. You know, like just 15 minutes sitting and breathing. Yeah, I just do this thing. I mean, you know, some of the most effective ones from this Tignahongi are like, breathe in, present moment, breathe out, wonderful moment. And it's just like, or breathe in, I am home,

or I have arrived. It's that simple. I am home. And you's just like, or breathe in, I am home or I have arrived. It's that simple. I am home. And you just got to surrender to it. It's that simple. I think it's deceptively, yeah, unintellectual. I mean, it's deceptively simple. Because I can see the thoughts coming and going. I can do that part. But that's what you're not supposed to, like the whole idea is training. Just let it go by. Yes. Yeah, I can do that part. It's training to be alive in the present moment.

Yeah, I can do that. Oh, shit, well then. Yeah, but I wanna get to the big payoff. Get you to Escondido. But where's the big sort of like. Well, that's a great question. The bliss of everything. I want the everything bliss.

I don't know that that's where it goes. I think, I don't know that it's a drug. Oh, well that's disappointing. Exactly. I was like, ah, it's a problem. I have the same problem with it. Like. How is the day you realized that?

I mean, I guess what it does is it does allow you non-suffering, is theoretically you explore the origin of suffering and then you have non-suffering. Well, all the sort of like ego-driven, compulsive attempts to alleviate suffering, they just wear out. They just wear out and it's disappointing. You know, like, you know, when, you know,

one day you're just sort of like, I don't even want to jerk off. I'm kidding. It's like, it's kind of a terrible moment. I know. And food stops working, you're just sitting there like, it's a kind of a terrible moment. And food stops working. You're just sitting there like, well, so that's the question. Like where do you go from there?

That's right. That's where I am. Because, well, okay. I'm kind of with you. Yeah. Because like the pleasure driven life or like the escape from suffering just into pleasurable experiences doesn't really at a certain point, it's like how much you only eat lunch once a day it's like who cares yeah yeah and you just like you know this is kind of like trying to get you know just existential relief out

of a pint of ice cream so where do you go what have you what's your practice been your well well the idea that a lot of a lot of lip service to the idea of vulnerability, right? Okay. So if what you're trying to escape is rooted in discomfort or the fear of exposure or vulnerability or whatnot, and then from there you go like, well, am I capable of intimacy? And then from there I go, it's like,

why is that even important? What's the answer? Because I, yeah. Yeah. Well, the next thing is like, I'm all right by myself. You know, I can, you know, I got records and, you know, talk to the cats, you know. this way of attaining some sense of humanity and wholeness maybe through intimate relationships. And I just don't know how it's satisfying.

I don't know how it's not just sort of like redundant. Great, we're both sitting here, you're knitting a thing, and I'm over here with the book. What? Well, I don't know that it necessarily just has to relate to that one intimate relationship, right? No, yeah, I'm capable of it with other. It's like everybody from the barista at the thing, whatever, it's just a constant sense

of vulnerability and as they talk about in this stuff, like interbeing, right? The fact that I make you as much a piece of me as I am to myself. And I think that... Do you say that to the barista? Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. It's the opener. And then it's like, I would like a latte.

Or it's you would like a latte. And then eventually, you know, the word is spread throughout the coffee shop. It's like, here he comes again. And then eventually- They freak out here. They start locking the doors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You eventually wake up to what you've been doing, and you're like, they start locking the doors.

You eventually wake up to what you've been doing and you're like, I can't go to that coffee shop. I love that the goal is intimacy and all you do is push people away with your oversharing hippie bullshit. Yeah, yeah. My brother's like that. So I get it. I get it.

I get it. What's going on with the pickleball? You know? It's so true. Oh God. But how's work? I mean, great. What?

Yeah? Great. I mean, and that really is the, that's the only thing that I really do understand, right? Yeah. Like you do something, I just intrinsically have loved doing it since I was five years old. Yeah. I've never stopped loving doing it.

Yeah. And you know that it brings joy to other people. Yeah. Like there's nothing, it's purely like if I could do it just 24-7, I think that'd be great. I'm not sure that my work always brings joy. Oh, come on. There's a few people out there.

I mean, what- I think they feel seen and relieved. Yeah, that's joy. Yeah, yeah. That's a feeling of- Like last night- How about this? It's useful.

Your work is useful? No, that's right. It brings community. There's a point of view I share that is not the standard one, but it's not alien. And to the people that feel the way I feel, and there are a lot of them, they feel seen. And in this political climate, my shows have become like support spaces,

like safe spaces, where, you know, they know how I think. So, and these are people that are terrified and nervous and, you know, rightfully so. But they know I'll speak to it and speak to, you know, the sources of my own kind of struggle. And it really does have this feeling of community service in the sense that, like, everyone's pretty isolated, everyone's locked into their phones, they're breaking, they're just destroying their brains every day with this kind of like, you know, hopeless nonsense. And, you know, just to get them in a room with other people. And I think that's the power of theater and film. If people go to the movie

theater, you know. So, but like I'm on stage last night in a comedy set and I had this idea yesterday about, you know, the nature of, well, the thing I was meditating on, you know, I don't know if you, you kind of get little phrases or mantras or whatever, but what I, the last two days, it's been a quote from Hannah Arendt.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that says, the last two days it's been a quote from Hannah Arendt. Yeah, that says, the death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism. Wow. Yeah, so that's what, and then I breathe. That's incredible, Jesus. And it's so like, so like last night I'm doing a comedy set.

Wonderful moment. Yeah, yeah. So I'm doing a comedy set and I said, I was just kind of playing with this idea, informed a bit by later Carlin, where the idea was like, hey, the leap from fuck them to kill them is a pretty short leap. All it requires is permission and incentive and a presidential pardon, it's a pretty short leap. All it requires is permission and incentive

and a presidential pardon. It's pretty big incentive. Right, so I wanted that laugh. But what I got was, what's happening? People were not wanting to go down that road. Well, I don't think people think like that. Oh, really? Not most people. Most people are like that. Oh, really? Not most people.

Most people are just sort of like, what? What? I guess. That seems really clear to me. I know. But I don't think just on their side. I think on our side. I mean, I don't think there are sides anymore.

No, no, no, no. I just think we're, all of us with this device and with the, are just continually beating at this thing of like, we're, and this is what I say about interbeing. We're different. This person is different. This person is separate.

This person is other and I'm going to either dominate this person or feel worse about myself in relation to this person or whatever. And as you say, like building community, building empathy is the antithesis of what that phone is meant to do. Yeah, it's an empathy killer. And it happens. And in that way, a civilization killer.

Exactly. And it happens so subtly because we adapted so immediately to it. Like I'm doing a bit now about how I think my phone is my primary emotional partner. Of course. And it is. Of course, you get everything you need. You get you learn things. You get joy.

And look at the way people hold it, and the way they look at it, and the way they cradle it, the way they put cases on it. I mean, myself included. It's just, there is a fetish to it as like, you know, not even a dog or a cat, like as a primary partner. Yeah, it's a panic when you lose it.

Yeah, you're always holding on to it, making sure you have it. I do this thing where I'm like, you're on it, you know, and you're getting everything you need, you know, emotionally, and then you're always holding on to it. Yeah, making sure you have it this thing where I'm like you're on it You know and you know, you're getting everything you need. Yeah And then you're sitting across from your human partner who's on her phone Yeah, and occasionally she'll laugh and you'll go what would it well it is and she'll go I'll text it to you and that's the nature Right, but there's also no way a human I mean this is maybe an AI discussion too But there's no way a human can compete with the attention, uh, smorgasbord

on that phone. So the idea of like human relationships, I'm just going to fundamentally be more boring than that phone. So you're going to have to accept that and want that to a certain degree. Well, we got to figure out, I guess we got to figure out why we need to get back to that on some kind of visceral level. I feel like I do know, but I feel like it goes into this very meditative, simplistic thing that I'm talking about with the no self thing, as opposed to, because if we just want

stimulation, titillation, entertainment, the AI and the phone, that's the way to go. Because there's no way a human being is gonna be able to compete with that. I even think about it in terms of the movie business. We're training audiences to like, from when they're young, to like really quick snippet things and even to like things that are somewhat false. I don't know if we're training audiences

to like the ickiness of being a human. And so what place does film have anymore? What place does television have anymore? What place does theater have anymore? Especially if they're just accommodating a content marketplace that is attention driven. Like this idea that you can't do anything longer than a half hour, because people just can't pay attention.

I'm like, yes they can. They can. I mean, you're just supporting that equation because of a content-driven marketplace. But people are perfectly capable. I mean, I sat through the brutalist. And it was great. So that's a false premise

Well, I think it you know it's funny to me what I'm noticing and again. This is like I think What I like about films because I really I sit down every time I watch a movie now Yeah, I think why do we need this yeah as opposed to my give me an AI? do we need this? Yeah. As opposed to, give me an AI, give me a, no, like give me something that's colorful, that's gonna have like some jokes that the computer can come up with.

Why do I need something that's gonna be rich and weird like this? And I think it has something to do with the slower dreamlike quality of being a human that consciousness provides. That there is something that isn't quite real. And there's something very technically specific about the silicon-based life form that really wants data, information, quantifiable specificity that I think is,

as human beings, we don't want so much of it. And I think that's gonna be the divide. We're gonna like blurriness. Well, there's also just the basic drug model, where it's like these quick beats are endorphin jackers. I mean, when you scroll, you're getting a hit one way or the other, whether it's down or up, and it's quick.

You know, like years ago, the one of the only things Dennis Miller ever said that, and I don't know who wrote the joke, but it never left me. It was like in the early days of the internet. Dennis Miller said, the internet is gonna make crack look like Senka. It's true. But I think for me,

because I find a tremendous amount of solace at this particular point in history from watching good films. And it's only because there's a humanity to it. And if the story is told well and authentically, there is something nourishing about it. Do you think that a 20-year-old audience member understands that concept?

Well, is it my job to make them understand? I mean, I don't know if it's your job, but it's somebody's job. Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, where are we going? Well, yeah, well, I mean, I'm almost done. Okay. Ah! So, how is that my problem? You really are no self.

I know, I love, okay, we figured out that, yeah, I don't know. I mean I think it's kind of our, I think it's kind of humanity's problem though. Maybe not. Sure, sure. But I've, you know, why are we, I think certainly it's an industry problem for, for Hollywood movies like. Well, but, but if you, if you create a generation that is really, for most practical purposes,

just an extension of the technology, because they've surrendered to it or have been given the opportunity to engage with it at such a young age, where does an elder even begin to talk? Well, where's the fight? Like, how do you, where's the fight? I don't know that they see it as something to fight.

It just is. You know, you're saying the fight is- So you think 50 years from now films won't be made? Well, I don't know. I imagine that you could probably go to bed at night and tell your phone to make a movie for you the next day and tell you what, tell it what length you want it and what you want it to be about and it'll come up with something.

I know. I know. But I think even when you talk about Shakespeare, which is not my bag, I mean, the reason why it remains and persists and is engaged with is somehow or another that fucking genius was able to encompass, you know, all the sort of foibles and manifestations of the human spirit, you know, in these dramas and comedies. That there was something about... And you think the more we get invested in the technology and the phone and the more we get attached to it, we still remain those remain with those human foibles and qualities?

I don't know. Right. See, the thing is like, I really, it turns out that the brain is much softer and easy to manipulate than we ever assumed. Yeah. I mean, the way that people adapt, even to tragedies, is baffling to me.

That, you know, you kind of move past it very quickly and you adapt. So the thing was is that, you know, this was some great convenience and it made our life easier, but the adaptation to it was so quick and the relationship with it is so immediately deep that I think it rewires all of it. I don't know what humanity looks like.

I had an interesting experience where I was very curious about this perspective on what it is to be human, where I did a Twitch stream with some streamers and we were, you know, and they asked me a question about roles I choose, like whether or not I wanted to be romantic in my roles, basically. And I said, like, I didn't need to, I can play various roles and it doesn't necessarily attach to me like it would with someone like Tom Cruise where it's like you have a brand that you push.

Right, sure, sure. Um, but I said something along the lines of like, you know, you guys are performing when you're on this Twitch stream, like you're presenting a version of them, of yourself. And they all were like, no, we're not. This is us. Um, and I was like, that's a really interesting

perspective. Yeah. Because it's, to me, are we training younger audiences and younger people to not even acknowledge the fact that they might have darker or weirder or things that they don't wanna reveal? Yeah. Because of the panopticon,

are we just actually eliminating that part of our personality or pushing it so far down in the subconscious that we actually believe that the panopticon, what people see is what we are. Yeah, and that was scary for the future film for me because I was like, okay, then you don't need us to reveal ourselves on film anymore.

You do just need. I don't know. I still think that no matter how repressed it becomes or suppressed or. It still exists. Well, I think that, you know, those moments, there are moments that you can have in well-written theater or film or anything.

Yes. That will find it. Pierce, yeah, pierce the veil. Yeah. Yes. And then all of a sudden you gotta deal with like, what's happening to me? Yes, exactly. And you just, instead of crying,

you're just shaking your leg and you don't know why your body's, yeah, yeah, I love that, I love that. That is like the function of great art. I would think that that. When it just works on you in a certain way. That's like me and my therapist. Yeah.

Just coming out, you know, on Thursdays, yeah. Where all of a sudden a connection is made. Yes Like that scene I think of like for some reason that the one that keeps coming up because I watch black mass a lot Really? Yeah. God you watch black mass a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's become one of those hold up It's it gets better every time I want really. Yeah, I've only seen it once, I think. Because I think initially I was like, well, the depth makeup was an obstacle for me. Yeah, overpowering, yeah. But then once I got past that,

and I looked at the other performances in the script actually, in terms of, this is a gangster movie, based on a real story, and it's fucking great. And it's just great. Like, you're great in it, Joel's great. Those performances, specifically, you know. That's depressing when he's in that place

and he's gotta kill the dude. But even in the, all the guys, when they're being, when they cut to the interrogation interviews, you know, there's those moments where, you know, they're interrogating Plemons and then the big guy who was also great, where, you know, having lived in Boston and met real mobsters, guys who have killed people,

there's something they're missing that is, it's tangible, but you couldn't, you know, it only comes from that. And for some reason, Rory, you know, got it. Yeah. And so did the other guy, the big guy, you know, I forget his name. He's such an interesting dude, that guy too.

I remember Rory. Who, Rory? I really liked him. You know, I interviewed him, it was not easy going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's in a deep place. Yeah, but he was so, I remember like loving him, and do you remember the movie Empire Records?

Uh-uh. It's like a weird little comedy movie. I remember him in Dazed and Confused, where he was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, same kind of character. But the moment that I was talking about with you, is when you know you're fucked, and Joel's like, no, no, we got this, we can get,

you know what, you remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're fucked. He's like killing kids, no, we got this. We can get, you know what, you remember? You're like, no, we're fucked. He's like killing kids or something. Yeah, yeah. Where, you know, they're on to you and to the scam with Whitey, where Kevin Bacon is. And you know that the jig is up. And this is before you do the TV interview

or the newspaper interview where you decide to talk. But, you know, but Joel's sort of like, ah, we get out of this thing. And you're like, dude, what are you talking about? Yeah. That moment, like it'd be impossible for someone to watch that and be like, I don't get it.

You know, like it's like. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And everyone has experienced that moment at some point in their life where it's like, no, it's over. It's like, what are you even thinking? And I think that ultimately is the moment you want from humanity in relationship. In relationship to the technology.

And it's just that moment where you're like, holy shit, this is done. We've been found out. Yeah, I don't know, does that ever come? I don't know. I mean, how does that come? My demented dad said something very interesting to me and I can't get it out of my head because when they have dementia, there's a poetry to it.

You know? Yes. And it was not really, it wasn't in context with anything. I mean, I talked to him and he's still, you know, a good part of him is there. But it's also a Zen thing too. And I don't really know what to do with it, but it wasn't really connected to anything,

but he said, you know, you gotta take the consequences or create your own. Create your own consequences. Right. What does that mean? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Cause it's like, that's all we do. That's what like the weird sort of shame driven compulsive person who like, you know, who, who can't stop himself. All you're doing is generating possible consequences or you're acknowledging that, you know, it's just, to me, it was such a weird, I don't know what to do with the poetry of it, but I like it. Wow.

He's got dementia. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And he comes out with bangers like that. Sometimes sometimes Wow, sometimes he'll come out with a banger It does explain a lot about him You know where you know if you've got a guy who's you know living a secret life and getting away with it But knows that it's not right, right, you know

The challenge is to create your own consequences enough to where you stop, you know, to where, you know, you are the guy saying it's over. Right. We're done. So you think humanity is going to be able to do this one day? I didn't say that. Oh, sorry. I'm saying-

I thought that's how we were going to wake up from the phone nightmare. It is, but I don't know if it's going to happen. Okay. I'd like to think that. were gonna wake up from the phone nightmare. It is, but I don't know if it's gonna happen. I'd like to think that. It depends if the technocrats win and we're all just giving numbers instead of names. Yeah, yeah. But you and I, coming out of,

like I grew up primarily in the 70s. So what we were dealing with was the sort of wave crashing of the 60s, but everything that the 60s had to offer was there for us and it was fairly close by. And so the arc of, you know, once computers happen and you know, there was a time where, you know, you didn't know if anyone called you until you got home and checked your fucking machine.

Yeah, God, I love that time. Right, but there was a time where you didn't know if anyone called you until you got home and checked your fucking machine. Yeah. God, I love that time. Right. But there was a time of organic analog existence. Yes. Locality. Yeah. And we have that foundationally.

Yes. And that's all gone. So in some ways, we are the keeper of a, you know, we were there for that. But it's very easy for the phone and for technology to erase even that part of our history because everything is available without context anytime. Right. And, you know, I don't know, I tried to hold on to a bit of that in terms of, you know, what inspired me and what creative freedom looked like at a different time.

Yeah, I talked to Pacino. Really? Yeah. How recently? Right before the book. You went for the book. Oh, wow. And it was one of the-

How was he doing? It was great because it was really kind of life-changing for me in approaching acting. Because I was about to do a lead in a movie. And, you know, I don't have an actor's confidence, really. And it's not my, it's not ingrained in me how to do it. You know, but the thing that was most interesting about him is that I didn't know him. And I know his work. And a lot of that work is very intense and very controlled

and has a certain amount of swagger and confidence to it. And I thought that's what I was going to be dealing with. No. No. No. He's a sweetie. He's a sweetie. He's a mess.

Yeah. And he's like still chasing it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Loves acting. Yeah, he's very aware. But the thing that blew my mind away, that blew me away was that he never looked at it

until he had to make compromises because you're not great with money, but he never looked at it as anything other than a pursuit of truth. Yes, yes. And I think that in light of what we're talking about, like whether film is gonna be important or what we do is important or all this stuff,

that the artist's mind and that he was so clear on it from an early age when he was hanging around the living theater, cleaning up with Martin Sheen, that what he saw was that this is a, it's a finding truth in the craft and in the art, and that he still has that. It's not a job. I think that-

I mean, that's what I was raised on too. Right. That's what I'm saying about what we came up with and how that... It's very easy to sort of generalize about, I don't know if kids are watching movies, but the truth is, is that- Yeah, what are kids drawn to? But our job, well, they're drawn to truth, whether they can identify it for real or not, I don't know. That's what's becoming a problem, both in terms of just basic news, but I think also

on the level of one's individual humanity. When you have a kid that says, you know- I mean, truth also, truth is, is truth empathy or is it survival of the fittest? Like, you know, when you're saying being drawn to something, I mean, I think Al is a very sort of big, big-hearted, empathetic person. That's why he's acting in the things he does.

And even when he's playing gangsters and killers, he's searching for that humanity within them. That's right. He's searching for this love, right? Yeah. But you could look at the world and say like, oh, it's a shit show of capitalist swagger on who's gonna be on top at the end of the day. And as a kid, you're like, that's what I wanna be.

I wanna be the dominant. I wanna win. I wanna win. And I think that the fight is not only technological, but the fight is for truth itself, right? Truth itself, right, and also what is foundational to civilization, I mean, I get- Correct, and like, do we wanna be civilized anymore?

That's the question. Yeah, do we wanna be civilized? Well, that's the hand I aren't, that's why I'm festering on that, that once a culture loses empathy, it's at the precipice of barbarism. Pete Slauson For sure.

You're saying that people don't have that knowing laugh. Peter Fisk No. Pete Slauson See, and that to me, I mean, now we bring it back, that's scary. Because if you're not even aware that there's this battle going on, then they really have one. there's this battle going on. Yes, because- Then they really have won. Well, fundamentally authoritarianism is not, it's not civilized. The idea of civilization and certainly democracy

is that it's about diversity and equality and tolerance and respect for marginalized or vulnerable people that we all kind of rise together. And that's fueled by empathy, right? And that seems to be historically challenging, but nonetheless, idealistically, the best way. And so once that goes, once that starts to tip towards people being able to other, you know, like it's not just

You know blacks or gays or Jews, but this sort of catch-all phrase of woke Well, that's that's you know, that's that those are all the good people So once you be careful because you you don't want to other the other side as well. Yes, I do Well, the you're you're playing a zero-sum game that because you're not am I well, what am I fighting for? Are we fighting for truth? No, we're fighting for community. Okay, and so I think that like You you have to I don't know. I mean I I think that Look when I talk to him one-on-one. I'm fine and we're fine Well, that's the thing. I know I get people are people and I think that the thing the fight we're fighting is the technology

I mean the fight we're fighting the brain fuckness. Yeah, but it's it's the it's the the thing itself. It's the form itself It's not the people no, I get it like the people are being manipulated to a point where they lose their humanity So how do you like, you know, I don't know how you get that back. And certainly some of them, you know, I'm sure a lot of the Nazis were like, you know, what do you need a donut? You know, so I mean, it's a tough one to bring up because it's impossible to like challenge that once you bring a Nazi into it. It's impossible to like, it's impossible to argue.

It's impossible to argue anything. No, no, no. All I'm saying is I knew some Nazis. Great guys. into it's impossible to like, it's impossible to argue. It's impossible to argue anything other than- No, no, no, all I'm saying is I knew some Nazis, great guys. You know, we used to go- I mean, you're right. You sort of lay down your Trump card with that one. And you're like- The Trump card.

To double entendre. Sorry, I didn't mean to, yeah. But I guess what I'm landing on here in terms of our question about, you know, what is the significance or relevance of what we do is that that pursuit of humanity community through truth in art or performance is all we can do on some level.

Is all we can do. Yes. Agreed. And all we, at this point, I'm thinking all we should do. Yeah. Like I can't. Is it gonna work? I don't know.

Right, but it's the only place where I have a gun in the fight. Right. It's the only place where I can be effective. Right. I've realized it's really the only place, you know. Yeah. If I can show something beautiful,

if I can embarrass myself in a certain way to make you realize that it's okay to live another day with more of an open heart and to see someone as human as opposed to a monster, then yeah, that's the, to me that is the battlefront and it's the skillset that I have too. So yeah. Great.

Well, I think we did it. Did we do it? Did we even start? Is this thing on? Oh fuck, I think we did it. Did we do it? Did we even start? Is this thing on? Oh fuck, I didn't turn it on. Jesus Christ. Wow. We did it. We picked up right where we left off. Elves in the corners. Yeah, elves in the corners. And here we are. Yeah, we got rid of the elves. We moved past the elves. Yeah, we moved past the elves. Thank God. We're into Zen now. I'm still, I'm back in the self though. I don't know where I'm gonna go from here.

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's a long day. It's a long day. I got plenty of time. It's early. I got plenty of time. Give me a cup of coffee, we'll see where I head. Good to talk to you again. Yeah, you as well. There you go. Thunderbolts opens in theaters everywhere tomorrow. Hang out for a minute, folks.

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