WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1641 - Samantha Crain

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

Singer-songwriter Samantha Crain wasn’t sure if she’d ever be able to make music again after a car accident left her without the ability to play instruments or physically write songs. Samantha talks with Marc about her recovery and how her physical improvement coincided with the evolution of her artistic confidence. Samantha also explains her family’s storied history of powerlifting, the influence of Jason Molina, and why she feels it’s important to write and perform songs in the Choctaw language. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Broadcasting from a room in a building that was built in the 1700s in what was once an attic a building with a very colorful history That I'm not entirely sure I could do some reading but it's sort of it's not a bed-and-breakfast exactly It's a it's an inn. I'm entirely sure of, I could do some reading, but it's sort of, it's not a bed and breakfast exactly, it's an inn. I'm in Portsmouth, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and apparently this used to be the house of the ship captain, and then it was owned by a woman who made clothing, and then some other stuff,

YWCA for a while, I don't know, but it was built a long time ago in the 1700s and renovated and now I'm in it and it's beautiful. There's a lot of history here and I kind of feel it. You get into these old buildings and you feel something. I don't know if it's a real feeling or if it's just something your brain manufactures because you know something about the place,

but I definitely have real feelings about New England that always resurface when I'm here. But anyway, look, couple of things. I just wanna make a correction because, you know, Canadians are a little bit sensitive right now, and that correction is that, I mentioned I was at the Elgin Theater, but I was actually at the Elgin Winter Garden Theater,

which is the Winter Garden Theater at the Elgin, which is a very specific and very special venue. I think I might have described it the last time I was talking about it with the leaves all over the place. There's literally the entire walls and ceiling are just covered with a fake ivy that apparently represents real ivy

that was there when they unearthed the place behind a wall. But a Canadian, and I'll honor their request, was like, you know, that's a very special place that apparently represents real Ivy that was there when they unearthed the place behind a wall. But a Canadian, and I'll honor their request, was like, you know, that's a very special place and the Elgin is really a different theater. And I'm like, all right, man, I'll clear it up. They're very touchy right now. And I get it. Even my joke about the 51st state saying that now that the liberal one up there that we

could use it because of the votes, they got a little touchy about that too. They're like, you can't be joking about that now. It's a delicate time, it's a scary time. I know, I know, I'm living through it myself, but know that it was a joke. I don't want Canada to be the 51st state because I might need to live there.

But look, you guys, I'm out in it. I've been doing it. I've been hammering this set. I've been tightening it up. I've been overthinking it. My special taping is this Saturday, day after tomorrow, doing two shows. And it's just incredible how much second guessing

I am doing. But it's also kind of incredible how I've locked into this set and I'm just running it. I did three shows up in Vermont at a small comedy club, Vermont Comedy Club, which is a great place, and they were nice enough to let me run it there, and I just locked into this set, man. And I'm touring now, Kathy Ladman, who's very funny,

she's been on this show, she's opening for me on these dates, and we were talking about just a whole life of doing these, doing stand-up, doing different places, doing stand-up, doing, you know, she's been around a long time, I've been around a long time. And just that, the idea of preparing for even like a five minute stand-up spot on a TV show,

just kind of rendering down whatever it is you do to kind of make sense for five minutes is separate things from other bits and mashing them together. There's this weird part of the job that is not just doing standup. And I'm not the tightest act in the world, but when I gotta tighten it up, I tighten it up.

Anyway, how are you guys doing? You all right? Nothing's getting better, but we're still in it. Today on the show, I have an interesting guest. I'm not sure how I got hip to her. I think it might've been through Lily Gladstone, but I got a record by a native singer-songwriter named Samantha Crane.

She is from the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. And it was a very interesting record in the way that she sings and the lyrics. Some of them were actually in native language. But she's also done a lot of work in film and television. She's been used in shows like Reservation Dogs and she composed the score for the Lily Gladstone film Fancy Dance and it was interesting and I knew there'd be an

interesting story there so we had a nice conversation her latest album is called Gum Shoe but I like talking to to people that come from an entirely different background than I do. So it's a good opportunity to sort of talk about that experience and experience outside of myself and understand and engage. That's what we do. I'm finding as I get older, and I guess I always knew it, that look, I'm not great left to my own devices or left alone for too long. I definitely need to engage with people. You know, you give me four or five hours alone and you know, look, I can occupy myself, but there's no telling what will go on in my brain.

And then sometimes it just kind of, you know, kind of starts chipping away at my very sense of self. And sometimes I don't know who I am until I'm seen and engaged with another person. And then I'm like, oh, here I am. Thank God I was drifting. So as I said, we're coming up on the end of the tour here. There's only two more shows, and that's for my HBO special taping this Saturday in Brooklyn, New York at the Bam

Harvey Theater. Two shows, 7 p.m. and 9 30. I don't know if there are tickets, but there may be. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour or Bam B-A-M dot org for tickets and see if you, there might be some singles. I don't know really what's going on with that, but if you're a last minute kind of person and you wanna do that thing, come to one of those shows, it might still be possible. Oh my God, folks. What a long journey this has been, my whole fucking life. And I swear to God, when I start talking about my past

personally and my past professionally, I've got to learn how to sit in the gratitude a bit. Because honestly, it's a fucking miracle that not only did I land on my feet, but I'm doing OK. And I've kind of made the arc of whatever success was given to me because yes, certainly I kept pushing and I kept trying, but it was elusive for many years

and then somehow or another cosmic timing sort of occurred and things shifted and I did all right. I feel like I'm on the other side of it. I'm still doing all right, but I feel like, you know, whatever my journey was to get to whatever peak I was supposed to get to, I might've hit it. I mean, hopefully I can stay on this plateau that the peak is at for a little while,

but even if I don't, I have to acknowledge that what a long, strange, fucked up trip it's been, for real. I mean, you know, talking to Kathy in the car about comedy and about my life, I'm like, what the fuck? It's like I've lived four, five, six lives. Maybe I'm like a cat. Maybe I've only got a few more. I don't know which life I'm in, maybe my seventh.

But man, just even being up in this area, it's crazy. It's crazy having been a touring one nighter comic and God knows I've talked about this before up in this area, you know, just even in Vermont, in Vermont, just walking around Burlington. It's beautiful in Vermont. We're right on that lake. What is the Champlain? Gorgeous, but it's so drenched in weird, traumatic, early comedy memories that there's always a slight edge to it. There's always a slight darkness to it that is generated

from within me. From my strange injured core comes these tainted memories. It's wild to be looking at something beautiful and have this slight nag of darkness and you're like, oh yeah, oh yeah, I remember. There used to be a, used to come up to Vermont, there was a couple of dates, like a series, a string of dates at the ski areas.

And just, I remember traveling up there with my girlfriend who became my first wife. I think it was probably before we were married and doing a show at a place called Mother Shapiro's in Killington. And the guy who owned the place was kind of crazy. There was a bunch of locals at the bar that were looking at my girlfriend, all weird and creepy. And I don't even remember the show or how I got through it And then I think there was another gig called it was at a place called maybe be made Denny's I might be completely wrong about that

I remember doing that show with Steve Baliga who used to do a Walter Brennan impression And this was I can't even tell you what year it was. It must been 89 Is that possible? And this was, I can't even tell you what year it was. It must have been 89. Is that possible? Even then I didn't know who Walter Brennan was enough to even get the impression. I don't know what happened to Steve Baliga, nice guy. But I remember Kim and I, my girlfriend at the time,

was we used to kind of do one of Steve's lines driving through Vermont on the road. Cause he used to do this thing like in between jokes, like he'd just go, drive and drive and drive and drive and drive and drive. And it was just this repetition. It didn't really, I don't even know if it was what it was attached to initially,

but I just remember we used to do that. And I remember stopping at a state liquor store and buying a large bottle of Jägermeister that came with glasses. A gift box. Because that's who I was. I was like, hey baby, let's stop at the state liquor store and get some juice.

And I think that brought us closer. I think so. And I used to, I was sort of obsessed with Jägermeister for a minute. Nasty stuff. But it took you somewhere. And it was like it had 900 ingredients and it was from a monastery. Just thought it was mystical floor sweepings

that made this liquor. And yeah, memorable stuff. And Burlington, Vermont, the front, that was a big college bar. I remember working there with Dave Cross and just drunk and whatever. I can't even remember where they put us up. I feel like it, I almost feel like it was in the back of the venue if that's even possible. And then there was that place, Nectar, where you get the turkey sandwiches. I talked to Trey Anastacio

about that because they came from there. But none of those experiences really stand out of my mind as great. It was just part of this miserable process that's gotten me here to this place. I'm definitely less miserable. I'm grateful I'm still alive. I feel like my brain is turning into mush. I think it's just because I'm kind of stuffing down the stress of what has to happen in the next couple days. Got one more show tonight

here at the music hall. And, you know, there's part of my brain that's sort of like, no problem, but the other part somewhere inside of me is just, it's just making my brain kind of, kind of mushy, I think. Or maybe something worse worse is happening but I imagine it's just the stress manifesting in other ways. Yes. So look it's getting nice outside that means you'll want to spend some more time out of your home which means you should have some home security in place for all the times you're not there. That's why we recommend SimpliSafe which is setting the new standard and home security.

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And there's no snow. I'm just, I can't like get my brain around, you know, not thinking the worst. Oh, you didn't know this, did you? I left my computer at TSA, at Border Security, in Toronto. Fucking unbelievable. I don't know what's going on. I don't do this stuff.

I don't lose shit. I don't leave shit. I can't explain it other than usually with TSA, if you have TSA, they never make you take your computer out anymore. That's one of the big perks. But in Canada, coming back into the States, they made me take the computer out and put it in a tray.

And I just grabbed my bags and I didn't put the computer back in. So it's just sitting there at, uh, security in Toronto at Pearson airport. And, you know, I didn't notice until, you know, I was on the plane from Detroit to Burlington. I had flown to Detroit, didn't need my computer, didn't notice it gone. Then I'm on the plane. I reach in and I'm like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. God damn it. And that feeling of losing either a phone or a computer is just so crazy because it's almost like, it's like half your brain. It's like your whole life.

It's like, you know, everything that makes you, you is somehow in that thing and there's a half your brain. It's like your whole life. It's like, you know, everything that makes you you is somehow in that thing and There's a panic to it and I just was like you got to be kidding me How am I gonna get that back? Am I ever gonna get it back? What's on there? And you know, what how do I even proceed with this? Do I call do I have to be on the phone with somebody? Because it's just a MacBook. Am I gonna have to tell some random? Security border guy in Toronto my password so we can prove that it's just a MacBook, am I going to have to tell some random security border guy in Toronto my password so we can prove that it's mine? I mean, just the spiraling. And then I texted my computer guy and he's like, yeah, don't worry about it. It's just, let's just get a new one in New

York. I'm like, what? And it's like, yeah, you backed it up, right? So it's all in the cloud. You'll get it all back. And I remember this being the case when I spilled some, a soda on my last one, but there is something about it just floating out there, just a hard drive or whatever they are now, just out there. But I guess there's the same feeling of it being up in the cloud or down in the cloud, in a cloud mill somewhere, a data mill.

But nonetheless, it feels like an appendage. You feel like you've lost something, you know, that contains a good part of you. And over the time I, I was on the plane and by the time I got to Burlington, I kind of let it go, I'm like, well, fuck it. Is there even a point to try to get that thing back if it's even possible? And, and I kind of let it go, but I'm like, well, dude, do some due diligence. I mean, you know, why not try? So I go and I look up lost and found at Toronto airport and I'm taken to a site

and there's a form you fill out and I filled out the form. Then I remembered I had this sticker on the thing of the, the titty sphinx from the Pittsburgh cemetery, very unique and specific sticker. And I'm like, well, that, that makes it mine. I won't have to have anybody open it up. And then they asked for the serial number of the computer and I looked that up and you realize well all that stuff is on your phone, you know, what other machines you have and I got the serial number then I talked to my Mac guy and he's like, I'm like, is the serial number on the computer? Yeah, it's

on the outside. It's very small but it's on there and I'm like, oh so they don't have to open it. It's like no dude and your names right above the login Place on the on the home page You know, I'm like, oh so all that panic about Whether or not I had to let my computer go because I didn't want an anonymous border agent to open it with my password Was was made up. It was never a reality and that's what I had to process in order to let it go like then there's like it's not open It is it's just a fear of having your entire life it seems you know just

available to strangers And it's not even a it's not even a browser history I'm not you know, I'm not doing the porn on the computer or anything like that But it's just like, you know pictures, writings, recordings, it's all on there you know. I mean I do a little porn on the phone but but not on the computer. But anyway what I guess I wanted to say and not that they need publicity but I do want to give a shout out to whatever the the kind of structure at Pearson International Airport in Toronto is that,

you know, I filed that claim and I found a picture of the sticker. I put that on there and the serial number and I emailed it. I never called anybody and within hours, like the next morning, they're like, we think we got it. We got it. I just got an email saying this is your thing. And I'm like, great. And then they give you options of how to have it mailed to you, and now the computer is at home, it's at my house,

before I even get there. And it's so amazing when shit like that works out, where you just think like, well this is gonna be lost in the machinery of whatever the lost and found situation. I've got to stop thinking the worst all the time. The computer made it to my house. And then I was like, well, watch, the only way this can end in a fitting fashion is if it gets stolen off my porch.

It did not. Anyway, look, Samantha Crane is here. Her new album is Gum Shoe and it's available wherever you get music. And I thought we had a pretty lovely conversation and I listen to the music a lot and it really kind of grew on me in a way I didn't anticipate. But this is me talking to Samantha Crane.

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There's no, in the language? Oh, whoa. I actually don't know. We just call it stick ball whenever we're down at the cultural center. The, I think they say it's indigenous stick ball because stick ball is also like what you play in like a playground in New York with like, you know.

That's like baseball though. This looks more like a lacrosse situation. I wonder if lacrosse evolved out of this. I don't. It must have. I think it did. And I think like a lot of the Northern Muskegon tribes, they just play lacrosse now. And then a lot of the Southern,

like Southeastern Muskegon tribes, they play indigenous stickball. Old school. Old school. Well, I mean, it seems like this would be more challenging. So I imagine the people that play the old school one are like lacrosses for babies. Cause look how small these catchers are. That's crazy. Yeah.

So what, do you live here? No, I live in Oklahoma. You do, where? I live in a town called Norman, which is like- I? No, I live in Oklahoma. You do, where? I live in a town called Norman, which is like- I know her, I've heard of that. Yeah, it's, you know her. Yeah, I know Norman. You know her.

Yeah, it's just like a college town. I was just there, you know. I know, I was at your show. You were? Yeah. Did I meet you after, briefly? I think I did. And I'm so glad I didn't know that I was gonna do this whenever we went to the show,

because I have a real bad habit of like two glasses of wine and saying something really stupid to someone. Like if I would have known I was gonna do this, I would have been like, oh, I'm gonna do you. Yeah, so I'm glad I just- No, I kind of remember after when I came out. That was kind of a good show. It was great.

And how far is Oklahoma City from where you are? It's like 20. Oh, that's it? 20 minutes, yeah. Yeah, I always, I've had a good time in Oklahoma. Yeah, we got good people. I mean, when I went to Tulsa, I was like, oh my God, this place is great.

And then I think like, I could live here, I'll just move here. And then you realize like, it's like four blocks, dude. You know, it's like. Yeah. It's like one street. Yeah, yeah, I think you're gonna move here. And then you realize like, it's like four blocks, dude. You know, it's like. Yeah. It's like one street. Yeah, yeah.

You're like, move here for the street. Exactly. That's actually, that's so right. It's a hundred percent right. Every time I have people come visit me, they're like, oh, I should move here. And it's like, you're gonna get over it real quick. You have to be like from here, I think,

to really like appreciate it. I think that's true. You know, I grew up in New Mexico and you have, there's a connection to, if you grew up somewhere, it seems to become, it's part of your heart that you can't explain. So no matter what other people say about it, or what, you know, how people see the city,

you're like, well, this is, I live, it lives in me. Exactly. Where'd you grow up? I grew up in a town called Shawnee, which is also not that far from Oklahoma City. It's like 45 minutes. And lived there until I got out of high school. And then I just sort of bit bopped around the whole world

and lived in various cities for a year. Well, when you were growing up, what was the community? You were Choctaw? I'm Choctaw. Now, the tribe were growing up, what was the community? It's a, you were Choctaw? I'm Choctaw. Now, the tribe is based in Southeastern Oklahoma, which is where most of my, the rest of my family live, like my grandparents, my cousins, my aunts and uncles. But the town that I lived in

was not, is not part of that reservation. It was just where- An outlier? Yeah, outlier. They don't, they want you part of it. No, no, it's not. It's just a land thing? It's just a land thing, yeah.

It's just where the boundaries are. So I wasn't, I would only kind of get to be like around my culture like in the summers, whenever we would go and we would go down there for like the entire summer. For onto the reservation. Yeah, my great grandparents and my great aunt uncle and my grandparents and a bunch of other uncles and aunts had like a sort of a farm down there

that we would just spend a whole summer down there. You know, it's like, it bothers me and I always feel bad about it that I had until like I watched Reservation Dogs, you know, and I talked to Sterling. I had no sense of what that life was like. And I think like, and I'm always kind of fascinated, but it seems like a great injustice that we don't know in general, that there are these communities that live in almost like a different time zone. And it's like, and it's so the traditions

and the sort of way of thinking about spirituality and stuff are so ancient and unique, but like, I didn't know anything about it, and I'm an old man. KS Well, that's actually surprising because you're from New Mexico and you never had any like... DF Sure, we knew, you know, people, indigenous people were around,

but it was like they were, the reservations aren't in Albuquerque and the ones, and the Navajo nation is a little far away. And then there was, you know, Acoma and there's Pecos, but it wasn't, there was no way to learn the life, you know? Yeah. Unless you were like invited in. Yeah. And then you could see what's going on. You just end up going to ruins. Yeah, no, I understand that. I think, yeah, because the reservation system

is a little bit different in Oklahoma where it's just like, it's all together. It's like mixed in with city borders. And so everybody just lives in the same cities. You're just like technically on reservation. So you get a lot more. It seems a little more dug in in Oklahoma. It seems like it's like that's the place.

And I don't, we don't need to talk about it the whole time. I just kind of find it interesting. Cause I talked to Lily too, you know, Gladstone, she's a friend of mine and you did her movie. Yeah, I scored Fancy Dance, yeah. That was great. The score was great, the movie was great. The movie's amazing.

I love it. She's so good in it. I love it, but like it's a weird habit when you talk to people from that, your culture, where, you know, I put people in the position where you're like, well, you're representative and I need some information. But she seems to deal with it pretty well.

She sort of. She deals with it better than anybody that I know. She's like the perfect example of giving you just the right amount of information that you can like digest. Yeah. Me, I am like, the minute I start feeling like half comfortable with someone,

I become like the oversharer or like- Oh yeah? And I start saying things that I'm just like, this person has no idea what I'm talking about. So- About your life? Yeah, I'm just like, this person has no idea what I'm talking about. So... About, about your life? Yeah, I'm just like, oh, they want to know. And then all of a sudden I'm telling them about like when I was five years old doing

something with my uncle, you know, and they're just like, oh, that's okay. I just want to... Well, that's exciting. What did your uncle do? Oh, I don't know. That was just like a made-up thing. I mean, what was the family business out there? Were they, you know? Where you come from?

So, well, okay, so in Shawnee, where I kind of grew up, my dad owned a powerlifting gym. Really? Yes. And he did a mail order business through that and also traveled a lot for that. And also, do you know what the power team is, from a Christian? Pete No. Anna Okay. So, in Oklahoma, the Southern Baptists had this thing called the power team, which was a group of big buff men that would go around and do things at revivals and they

would preach and show feats of strength. Pete Really? Anna Like they'd tear phone books in half or like… Pete Just big dudes. and do things at revivals, and they would preach and show feats of strength. Really? Like they'd tear phone books in half or like. Just big dudes. Just big dudes being like, I can do all things through Christ. At tent revivals.

Yeah, tent revivals or in an actual church. And my dad kind of did a version of that too, where he would go around and preach and play songs and then rip phone books in half. In a Christian angle? Anna Winkler Yeah, it was like very much part of the Southern Baptist thing. Pete Slauson It's so funny, I had a t-shirt that someone

got me, I don't know where it's, years ago, it must have been some Christian gift shop. It was Christ, like almost like in a push-up position with the cross on his back, like with muscles. Anna Winkler Was it a Lord's Gym t-shirt? Pete Slaus? Maybe. It said like, His pain, your gain. I think that's a Lord's Gym T-shirt. That was a very big like deal in the 90s, especially around Oklahoma.

Really? Yeah, it became like a very popular T-shirt. I really want another one. I just thought it was so cool. I was wearing it ironically, but I did like the shirt. Does this rip Jesus, cross on His back, pushing up? Danielle Pletka I'm pretty sure that we had one of those t-shirts cycling around my house when I was growing up. That's so funny. Pete Slauson So, you brought up Southern Baptist?

Danielle Pletka Yeah. Pete Slauson Was there an element of traditional spirituality always? So that was weirdly no, because the Choctaws, especially in Oklahoma, are very ingrained in like the Southern Baptist just through- They got you guys, huh? Yeah, yeah, they got us. They got us.

We even have like this thing, I mean, part of the reason why I started writing songs in the Choctaw language is because the only songs that really exist on recording in the language now are basically translations of Southern Baptist hymns. So we have like a big hymn tradition in the tribe where they sing the hymns. The Jesus songs in the Choctaw language. And I was just kind of like, I would like there to be something else for us to sing about in our language. But so, no, it was all pretty Southern Baptist.

Yeah. And so, like, a song like, which one was it? When We Remain? Mm-hmm. That's a Choctaw language song that you just, but that, because I couldn't, I didn't know what you were saying, so. You don't know how to, you don't know the language? I really wish I did.

But that's just one of your original songs. And now how does that land with people in the community? Is it exciting to them? Yes, because I think they all feel the same way where they're just like, they wish that there was, they wish that they could sing in their language, but maybe not about Jesus. Because there's so much baggage attached to that.

To the Jesus? Yeah, with the boarding schools and the, Oh yeah, yeah. Colonialism and all of that. So I think they wanna be able to connect to something that's like further back. Yeah, and do you speak it fluently? No, I'm still like in the learning process.

Really? Yeah, I mean, I am dedicated to that, like as a practice to learn the language. That's something that takes pretty high priority in my life other than music stuff. But it's kind of like the further in that you get, the harder it gets because it's not just about learning words and vocabulary. You're basically like changing how you think about things because that's what language does. Sometimes there's not like side by side comparisons of like

English way of thinking and Choctaw way of thinking. What do you feel is the theme, the main difference in terms of how it, like is it more picture oriented kind of like? It's very verb heavy. Okay. So everything is about like movement and change and doing. Yeah. My thing that I'm kind of obsessed with right now is there's no word for is or are in the language. So for instance, like if I was gonna describe you,

I could describe you, but because I'm not connecting you and a description with the word is or are, it's basically like a value saying, you are only how I can describe you right now, or at that moment. That doesn't mean that how I'm describing you is who you are, and I find that incredibly freeing, and like kind of Buddhist, you know?

It's like you are multitudes, you know? You contain all sorts of things. And you're not locked into, because your perception of me is not me. Exactly, yeah. So there's sort of a nice boundary there. And a respect almost. Yeah, it's great.

And just being able to think about things like that, think about people that way, think about how you're perceiving the world around you. Right. I think it's very freeing. It unlocks you from a lot of this idea of how I'm perceiving my life is how it's like very freeing. It like unlocks you from a lot of this idea of how I'm perceiving my life is how it's going. Right, that like what is, you know,

is relative to your perception of it and then you can separate yourself from that and kind of be. Yeah, yeah. That's good. They had it figured out, man, I think. Yeah, it's interesting to think about like, what the sort of roots of that is, because it sort of like, it innately respects autonomy,

right, of people. That's kind of great. And when you're working in the language to write songs, you know, it must give you a whole other poetic sort of tool almost. Yeah, because when I'm writing in English, my go-to is like, me, me, me, me, emo, me, me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is how I feel. This is who I am.

Yeah. And then when I write in that language, it sort of like unlocks this whole other thing, which is like, this is what I'm perceiving. So, it's very much like a more observational way of writing, which I find just like unlocking like a whole different aspect of like writing and creating. Yeah. And there's something about like just I think the folk tradition in terms of like that's a perception thing, but you are sort of documenting experience or journeys of hardship and stuff

that is not necessarily self-referential at all. Yeah. You know? So wait, now I wanna go back to this, the Empowered Gym, the power lifting gym. So did you like, did the whole family work there kind of deal? Yeah, it was very much a family business.

Yeah, so we had the gym and then my dad also competed in powerlifting, but there's no money in powerlifting, so it's like you do it for the love of it. And so we would travel in this van to different competitions so he could- They just had power lifting competitions around? Yes, yeah. Like states?

You went to different states to do it? Different states, even different countries. And he would, basically my, we had like our own jobs so he would set up, in order to like pay for these trips that he would be going on, he would set up like a little table with like vitamins or like protein protein bars or equipment so he could sell them to other lifters. He was very resourceful, honestly.

And so I would usually head that up. And that was back whenever they had the credit card things that was the big clunky. That had to make the imprint. Yeah, so I had one of those that I would operate at age eight where I'm just taking people's credit card imprints. And then my brother would work this little video camera. My dad would set up a video camera because he found out that all of these lifters wanted

to watch their competition, but people didn't like really own video cameras. So like a VHS camera? Yeah, so my brother would set up a VHS camera and film the whole meat. And then my dad would sell copies of the tapes. Oh, that's smart. To people. And we just traveled around and did that like a lot.

It's almost like, it's not quite like, I don't know why I associate it with wrestling because it's not really like that, but it seems like the culture is kind of like that. It is. Did you see Iron Claw? Yeah. It's like that like that, but it seems like the culture is kinda like that. It is. Did you see Iron Claw? Yeah. It's like that kinda underground wrestling world

where it's like very family oriented because you have to have people that will like work for free for your dream basically. Right, yeah. So that's what we were doing. We were like- The whole family. Working for free for my dad's dream.

Where did your dad get this obsession? From his dad. His dad was like one of these like Muscle Beach people. Out here? Yeah. They lived a lot of places whenever he was growing up, but he was out here and then up in Oakland for a while and stuff.

And he was a power lifter. Yeah, he was like just really into the whole Jack LaLanne fitness sort of thing. And so I think that trickled down to my dad and his brothers and sisters. They're all power lifters? They, so yes, they were. My dad was the one that kind of was like

rose to the top of the pile though. Is he a champion of some kind? He was like, he was one of the best to ever live honestly for his weight. Yeah, like if you mention his name to anybody that's in power lifting, they'll know who he is. What's his name? Ricky Dale Crane.

Such a great name for it, right? It's a powerlifting name. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So wait, so were you powerlifting? Yeah, when I was a little, yeah. Well, up until I was like 16, I competed. How were you, were you ranked? I was, I got like records and stuff.

But the thing was, is like, I didn't really like, I didn't like it. I just liked being good at something, I think. And because- Well, sure, it seems like a fairly limited scope. I mean, it's like, it's not even a sport necessarily. It's a, what would you call it?

It's a competitive thing, but you're doing one thing. You're not playing, there's not a team element. No, it's an individual sport, yeah. That's right, yeah, yeah. So you were good, huh? I was, but just purely like genetically. Low center of gravity, like kind of. Right, but like, are you still ripped?

No. No, it's gone. When was the last time you put some weights on your shoulders? I mean, probably like a year ago and it was like very little, I'm sure. It's like my- But I bet you muscle memory, you still have got the form and everything. Oh yeah, I'm sure. It's like my. But I bet you muscle memory, you still got the form and everything.

Oh yeah, I do actually. One time I was like at the YMCA and I was just doing like a squat, and some guy was like, you have great form. And you're like, let me tell you. Let me tell you. This was hammered into my head from a very young age. So when does, your dad's not around anymore?

He passed away in October. It was very sudden. Oh, sorry. So you have just one brother or how many? One brother, yeah. And is he still in the power lifting racket? He runs my dad's gym now. It's still there?

Yeah. Where you grew up? Well, it moved around a couple of times, but it is still in Shawnee. Like he had it like in a garage and then he had it in like another like shopping center building and now it's like in a building that's kind of near his house, so.

I wonder, he just chose that because of his dad, huh? And he focused on that one thing. I think he just saw that he was really good at it. Yeah, yeah. And he just wanted to be the best at something, I guess. Yeah, that makes sense. And I imagine your brother kind of expanded the gym to include more things.

No, I mean, like I said, my brother is just now gotten this handed to him because my dad passed away in October. So my brother worked there. But he's just now gotten it. And it's still for power lifting? It's very much like the, it's not like walking into a Planet Fitness,

it's like the same eight guys who spend three hours there every day and go take a smoke break in between their sets. And it's that kind of very gritty social. You walk in and you're like, oh, this isn't right for me this is yeah no if you're like a woman that's trying to like tone up this is not where you go like they probably call it the scary gym so at what point do you gravitate towards music I think probably like 15, 16.

I just. You're starting to realize power lifting is not. Yeah, I'm realizing. Your life. That's not for me. Yeah. I was, I mean a couple of things like converged where I was realizing that I was more of like a creative person.

I mean I always like wrote and stuff growing up. Oh you did? Yeah. Like poetry, stories and stuff. Yeah, poetry, stories, things like that. But I didn't have an example of that in my life. I mean, being in a small town, you were either doing FFA, like agriculture stuff,

or you were doing sports. And that was kind of it. So I think I was just starting to listen to music more and there was guitars at our house because my dad played. Oh, he did. But I'm very stubborn and I don't like people teaching me things.

So I'm like, I didn't at the time. What was the music in the house? Like 60s folk, Simon and Garfunkel, Bob Dylan. Well, those are good. Yeah, Joan Baez. Yeah, my dad was like a huge folky. Really? So that worked?

Yeah. Could have been Bob Seeger. It could have been Bob Seeger. It could have been, I mean, it could have been anything. Yeah, but like he was specifically a folk guy. Yeah, he was a folk guy. Like stories. Yeah.

Yeah, and did you find that, like, was there any influence from Native community that seeped in or were you distant from that? Well, I mean, like I said, I was culturally a part of that, especially during the summers. But the music element of our tribe, like what we have contact with, is mainly just like social dances. Sure. Yeah, right. So there's not a lot of... It's interesting though, that there was not that many contemporary kind of rock bands and stuff.

There's like two or three. Yeah, there is this like, I'm kind of just now discovering this, but there's this guy that does a radio show called, I think it's called Wateka Radio out of Minnesota. And he's Lakota, I think. But he has a radio show where all he plays are contemporary native musicians

that were doing stuff between the, I guess, the 50s and 70s-ish. So there's all of these undiscovered records and tapes and stuff that he just finds and he plays these on his radio show and it's very cool. Well, there's a collection, I think it was put out by maybe Numero or Light in the Attic that is all kind of contemporary native music from like the 60s.

Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. And I'm kind of obsessed with this guy, Jesse Ed Davis. Yeah, he's from Norman, where I live. That guy, man. Amazing. What a fucking great guitar player. Yeah.

There's like two solo albums of his that are really good. Yeah. He kind of hit the wall kind of guitar player. Yeah. He's got, there's like two solo albums of his that are really good. Yeah. He kind of hit the wall kind of hard though. Yeah. But he did that solo on Doctor My Eyes, the Jackson Brown, he's good. I was just listening to an interview with him

the other day where he- Where was that? It was on this Watt That Go Radio. Oh wow. They like played it. Yeah. And he was talking about how he was hanging out with George Harrison. He needed one extra song for his solo record.

Yeah. So George played him this song and he was like, I could tell he didn't really want to give it to me because he wanted to do it himself, but I talked him into it and I cut it. So he got one of George Harrison's songs. He played with everybody, Leon Russell, he played with Lenin, I think, Harry Nelson. I mean, he was like one of George Harrison's songs. He played with everybody, Leon Russell, he played with Lennon, I think, Harry Nelson. I mean, he was like a real studio guy.

They just released a biography of him. But, all right, so you listened to folk music and you figured out how to play on your own? Yeah, I think I just went and bought like a guitar chord book from like the local music store. Yeah, all you need is four chords really. Yeah, and that's really what I started out with. It was like G, C, E, minor, D,

and I just started writing poetry to music basically, I guess. Yeah, and when do you like, and so your influences are primarily the folk records? They, I mean, that was sort of my, that was the easiest like entry level. I was definitely listening to a lot more pop, like, or whatever was on the radio at that point.

But the folk thing seemed like low barrier entry, you know? Like you could listen to that and be like, oh, all I need is a guitar. And then I can like write a song. You can make it your own rule. Yeah, because you don't need anyone else. Yeah, you can visualize that as a teenager a little bit easier than like,

oh, I need four people and amps and like, and like a drummer and a bass player. Like that feels very difficult when you're like 15 or 16. So how long did you just play solo? When did you start playing out? So there was like a little coffee shop in Shawnee that had an open mic, and I did that for a couple years while I was still learning, and I'm sure it was very bad.

I think I was playing like radiohead covers or like Bob Dylan covers or something. Bob Dylan covers. Like which ones? The Times They Are a-Changin. Oh, of course, yeah, you gotta do that. You gotta do that one. You weren't gonna? The times they are changing. Of course. You gotta do that. You aren't gonna tackle like visions of Johanna. No, no. Or like what's the one that like the hurricane that's like seven minutes long or something. I tried like I play sometimes I'm you know I play

with some guys sometimes but we play out and I decided I'm an okay player but I decided like let's do ISIS. And like about like midway through the song, I'm like, I'm not that confident in playing and singing. And I'm like, we've still got like half of this. Yeah, I'm so over it. Well, it's just like, if you lose your kind of, like, you know, mojo in the middle and you start to second guess yourself,

you're like, I can't get out. I'm trapped. Trapped in ISIS. It's a good song, but oh my God. you're like, I can't get out. We can't. We can't. We can't. I'm trapped. Trapped in ISIS. It's a good song, but oh my God. So, but are you building any sort of following at any point? Not until, I was really just doing like open mics and then I'd drive to the city,

to Oklahoma City and do open mics. Yeah. You could like find, there was like a classified section in like the local arts paper that just like listed all the open mics. Sure, and, there was a classified section in the local arts paper that just listed all the open mics. What years of this, in the early 2000s? Yeah, it would have been 2002, three, four. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at what point does someone say, let's make a record?

I think how that kind of moved into me doing this for more of a job thing was that right after I, well, after I graduated from high school, I tried college for like a semester. Right. And at Oklahoma Baptist University. Oh, okay. Yes. It was in Shawnee.

Yeah. I didn't know what I wanted to do, so that just was like, well, it's here. Yeah. I didn't know what I wanted to do, so that just was like, well, it's here. And then I heard about a musician's like commune colony thing on Martha's Vineyard. Really? Yeah. Huh. Where you could like apply, you could send in a tape

and if you got picked then you'd go live there for like eight months. And they would teach you how to like record your own music on Pro Tools. Where'd you find that? I just heard about it through friend of a friend. And you got in? Yeah, I applied and I think I sent in a cassette tape

recording of me doing the times they are changing, I'm pretty sure, if I remember correctly. And I got selected to do that, so I just went out to Martha's Vineyard and lived there for like eight months. And- Was that the first time you were out of Oklahoma? No, I mean, we were traveling a lot for like the power. But this was the first time that I felt like I was like

doing something attached to music. And on your own. Yeah. And you got to take the ferry out there. Yeah. And you're stuck on that island for a while. Yeah, yeah, you're stuck. Yeah, oh yeah. And you got to deal with the island people a while. Yeah, yeah, you're stuck. Yeah, oh yeah.

And you gotta deal with the island people. Right, well I'd rather deal with the island people than the rich people that come in for a month or two in the summer. Yeah, Martha, I used to do a gig out there because I lived in Boston for years. And you gotta take that, what's that, something bluff where you take the boat out

and go across and then you're just on the island. But it's pretty. Yeah, it is. Isn't that, I might be thinking of Nantucket. Martha's Vineyard or Nantucket where they have to, they're not allowed to paint their houses any different colors. Yeah, they have a lot of weird rules.

Like no chain restaurants are allowed. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they all have to be like gray houses. The gray like, shingle. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they all have to be gray houses, the gray shingle. Yeah, gray, exactly, yeah. So where is, how many people are in this thing? There was like 20. So we all lived in this big barn in bunk rooms

and we just like- Played guitar? Yeah, we just jammed, honestly. Jammed and learned how to use Pro Tools and we put on fake variety shows once a week. We'd all form bands with different people. So that's the first time you're playing with other people? Yeah, that was the first time that I did a lot of,

any sort of collaboration or learning how to, I learned a lot about song structure, I think, just from seeing how other people did. And electric, were you guys playing real bands? Was there drummers and stuff? Yeah, real bands. Real full bands. So that must have been exciting.

Yeah, it was exciting. It was good. And after that, you felt more confident? Yeah, I think I felt like, well, I've come out here and I've like done music with other people. And so that sort of, and I met this girl named Beth out there who we sort of just decided we would start like touring. This was the days of MySpace when you could basically

message venues on MySpace and send them like a song and if they liked you, they would just, they book you. And so we just did that for like two years. We just got a, I think it was like a Bonneville, like an old Bonneville, which had a massive trunk and we put our guitars in there and we just booked ourselves tours for like two years. Did you play together or just wanted your-

Like a duo. Oh really? Yeah. What's she up to? She still does this, yeah. She lives in St. Louis and she does like singer songwriter stuff. What's her name? Beth Bombara.

Oh. You guys still friends? Yeah, I mean we're acquaintances. Like we've kind of like, we've gone our own separate ways a little bit, but like we're still friendly. Were you doing all original stuff? Yeah.

Wow. Yeah, we were. And like, so that got you kind of like, that toughened you up I imagine. Yeah, I mean that was like the true road dog days where you're like, you know, getting change off the ground and putting it in a sock so you can like buy your coffee the next morning and like staying with the craziest people,

you know, because you can't, you're not like at a level where you can like get a hotel or anything. So like fans or people that- Just people that were at the bar, not even fans, like, you know, we're like playing on stage and we're just like, if anyone's got a place for us to stay. Oh my God. How am I still alive?

I don't know. I don't know. Did it get weird? Oh yeah, so many, so many weird things. There was like one time where we were in Nebraska and this guy was like, we like went back to this guy's apartment. And he asked us if we wanted anything to drink

and I think Beth was like, I'll take like a gin and tonic if you have it. He came back with like a Walmart tumbler, like a giant 16 ounce glass full of gin and tonic, heavy on the gin, you know? And we were like, we're gonna go, we're gonna sleep in the car. Like we were just like, this isn't good, this is not.

That's so scary, man. I know. You would never think to do that now. No, I don't. I mean, oh my God. I think you have to be just totally naive and like feel invincible as a kid. Oh, you're so lucky it didn't get too fucked up.

I know, yeah. So after that, what leads to the studio? How does it, like how, what leads to the studio? What brings you the attention to do a record? We just traveled around for two years, just touring a ton. And then there was this guy that, oh, that's what it was. Beth's boyfriend was in a band called Barry, which was like, I think they were based out of Chicago at the time.

Yeah. Very like Midwest, part of that whole like Midwest post rock, like Captain Jazz sort of. Yeah. I'm trying to, I wasn't very. Classified. I wasn't very like into all of that music. It was like very much the Midwestern like emo post punk.

Yeah. Scene that was going on at the time. And they were sort of part of that and they let us come open for them on a tour. And the lead singer Joey, he had like a little studio. And so between tours we recorded like my first EP. And then from there I started doing what everyone tells you you shouldn't do, which is like send an unsolicited demo

to like record labels. And that's what I was doing. I was literally just like mailing my EP to different record labels. And one of them ended up liking it and re-releasing it. It was kind of funny how it came about. It was, the label was called Ramzer Records. They're based out of North Carolina.

And their big band is the Ava brothers. Yeah. And. Yeah, people love those guys. They do. Yeah. They love them. It's like, there's so many chunks of music that I miss.

You know, I know Judd Apatow did like a big documentary on them, right? I think so. Yeah, and I'm like, I don I know Judd Apatow did like a big documentary on them, right? Yeah, yeah, and I'm like, I don't know these guys at all. They have a very like insular, like fan base. But it's sort of like of the Americana ilk? Yeah. Yeah. Cause that like, it seems like, cause it feels like you kind of came up

in that world a little bit. I did, and it was like not the right world for me to come up in. You don't think so? No. I and it was like not the right world for me to come up in. You don't think so? No, I think it was so stilted for me. Like I think it really affected like how long it's taken me to get to the point where I'm like making the records that I wanna make.

I think I put out a lot of records where I was like trying, because the label that I was on was very much like both feet in that world. And that was how I was being like marketed. Well, it probably made sense to them, you know, like aside from being a female artist, but being a native artist and having that representation in that type of music was probably,

they were like, how this fits. Yeah, and I wore like a planal shirt. Yeah, so you're good. So they were like, you're good, come on. I wore like a planal shirt. Yeah, so you're good. So they were like, you're good, come on. But I mean, I thought that first album was good. It sounds good, but you didn't feel like the songs in the night. Oh wow, okay.

But as I listened to the arc of your stuff, I could tell that you were kind of fighting to find your own groove, but I mean, that band sounded pretty good to me. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, the band was great. Yeah. And I mean, I think we always put out stuff that sounded good enough. But it just wasn't like what I-

Right. It wasn't like- Wasn't matching. Wasn't matching. I was giving up a lot of myself to try to fit into this world that I actually didn't know much about. I didn't even know what Americana was, what they were like. It's kind of hard to define, isn't it? Yeah, I think it's actually more of a fashion sense

than it is like a music, honestly. I think it's more like a scene than it is like a type of music. Well, that happens with music. I mean, I guess there's a roots element to it, and it must all come from like, it almost feels like some sort of, I'm sure people have thought about this, because I know the Americana world,

and it seems to come from almost like the band, that sensibility of integrating all these kind of fundamentally American sounds and styles into this one thing that is kind of blues, kind of country, kind of whatever. But there are artists that kind of fall into that, but you're right, they might not call themselves Americana, but certain artists are like, well, if there's momentum

behind this idea, this brand, why not be in it? But so when do you, but you're still doing all your own songs. Yes, yeah. So, you know, so that was being represented. Yeah, it was. But I think I was, because I was young and very unsure of myself,

I was maybe trying to write songs that maybe I am not the best at writing, you know? Like trying to kind of make something fit into like a genre or something. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it seems like by kid face, you're in you. I think I'm like getting in there, yeah. I really don't feel like I'm fully

getting into like finishing a record and being like, that was what I wanted to make until I started like producing my own records. And that wasn't until a small death, which is like just the last record and then the EP. That record's beautiful. Thank you. Because the sound is like, you know Jason Molina?

He's my like. Really? He's my, excuse me, all natives. He's my spirit animal. Yeah. I love him, yeah. Because when I listen to that, I mean, in some of the other records, I can hear a through line of folks' structure and style

and some of the ways you write, but on that one, it was, cause I'm, he kills me. He's amazing. It's the best. But I definitely heard that in that record. Well, good. I would love to channel anything about him. He was a true, like, just like a true poet,

a true, like honest, open, raw nerve of like human. The vulnerability of it. Yeah, so vulnerable. Like I got choked up when you got excited about him because there's something about what he makes present and available that at times it's almost hard to take. Yeah. And so when did, did you ever meet him?

I didn't. There's actually a song on Kidface that is written for him. It's called For the Minor. I wrote that song for him. That's a great song. I wrote that down. Yeah. I was actually, we were supposed to be like

playing some shows with them later that year. So I was gonna get to meet him, but he passed away before that happened. And so I wrote this song just like kind of commiserating that, but like he, I had a lot of friends that knew him. And so I kind of got the down-low about him through that. But I had this moment when I was, it was very early on when I started writing songs.

I was probably 16 or 17. And I used to drive up to Oklahoma City a lot to go to this venue called the Conservatory, which was just like a DIY sort of punk club. I used to drive up to Oklahoma City a lot to go to this venue called the Conservatory, which was just like a DIY punk club. Yeah. There was a record store right next to it called Size Records. Yeah.

This was back when you would browse a CD shelf and buy a CD just because you like the cover. Yeah, sure. I bought a Songs Ohia CD. I think it was The Lioness, just because I like to cover. And I was driving home after the show that night, and I put the CD in my car and was listening to it on my drive back.

And I was just like full, like crying more than I've ever cried in my life, like at age 16, not having felt anything that this guy has gone through, because he's, you know, older than me, I haven't experienced that in my life at this point, and just, like, I'm getting, like, emotional thinking about it, just, like, losing my mind at, like, how in touch it seemed like he was

with his thoughts and his, like, emotions, and I was just like, I wanna do that. Like that's what I wanna do. Yeah, and sort of elevating his struggle. Yeah. You know, on all levels. It's hard to even explain it because I don't know that a lot of people know him.

They should, but yeah. Well, I mean, he wasn't that much older than you. No, he was, yeah, I think he's like maybe. I mean, he died in his 30s, I mean, he wasn't that much older than you. No, he was, yeah, I think he's like, maybe... I mean, he died in his 30s, I think. Yeah? I don't know off the top of my head. Yeah, well, no, yeah. Maybe seven, eight years after he died?

Yeah, yeah. And I don't know, like, I came to him later, you know, I didn't know his stuff, because that label, which label was it? Secretly Canadian? Yeah, Secretly Canadian used to send me records. Oh, cool. And they sent me that Magnolia Electric Company record with Farewell Transmission, and I was like, what the fuck is this?

And then you gotta go back and you're like, oh, and then you're in that guy's spirit, which is so heavy and beautiful. And it's not just the words, there's just something, there's certain performers that have something in their voice where you can feel the weight of it, of whatever they're going through. And you know, Towns Van Zandt has that to a degree

where you listen to it and you're like, this is, there's a sadness here that is like unfathomable in a way. And with those kind of performers, I like, I have to, I can only listen to it because you got to prepare yourself. Yeah. Yeah. You can only listen to it at certain times. Yeah. You know, I mean, oddly, I can't even listen to Brian Wilson. And that's pretty upbeat stuff, but he's so troubled, and I can feel that.

I don't know what that resonates, why that resonates. I tend to think that it's because I have a slightly depressive father. So there's a neural pathway in my mind that lives there. And then when someone can be in it, but kind of bring it up, it hits me very hard. Same. I think mine comes from mine comes from like, uh, the idea of like loneliness.

Mm-hmm. Like, any time I'm, I grew up with a very, like insula, I spent a lot of time alone. Yeah. And so, I have a very, uh, introspective, like lonely thing that I can get into. And it gets real dark and real sad real fast. And that's, I think, when I hear someone like Jason Molina singing in that way, I can just imagine that he's like all alone. And it's like, and navigating that.

And it's like hitting something really deep in me. Yeah. I guess that's it, you know, and it's so specific. And I think that's an interesting thing about art in general that, you know, so many of us, and even, because I, you know, the way I do what I do, it's pretty specific and it has to resonate with the person, people that are gonna, you know, connect with that, but it's hard to sort of realize,

like, well, it's not everybody. And, and, cause there's part of you that's sort of like, I want my stuff to be for everybody. And then at a certain point, you gotta just like, well, I'm helping these people. Because there is a help element to it, right? Do you feel that about your audience? Yeah, I think, you know, I mean,

just from the perspective of being like a songwriter who's trying to pay their bills, there is that element that always pops up where you're like, I wish more people got this or something. But honestly, I think the way that you just put it is perfect, which is just like, not everyone serves the same purpose, like within art. Yeah. I was just up in Alaska, in Sitka, Alaska

at the end of January, and I was helping out, I was doing like a fundraiser for a tribe up there called the Klingits, the Kiksadi clan of Klingit Indians. And they gave me an honor name called Shikai Kliksa, which is, I don't think I'm saying that completely right. Yeah. But what it means is it comes from a story that means, like, uh, due to colonialism and how

things have gone, all of their culture and traditions have been put in this box. And there's like a lid on top of the box. Yeah. And there are people that come along that push the lid just a little bit off, so more of the traditions and more of the culture, more of the language can come out.

And the verb, the action of pushing that lid off is the word shekaikliksa. So my name means to push a little bit off the edge. And that's how I feel like my position as an artist or a musician is. It's not to be the one that brings everything to the masses. It's the one that just pushes like,

pushes music or art or songwriting or whatever, just a little bit forward. So that way somebody else down the line can like grab something there and utilize it in their practice. So I think, yeah, what I'm doing is not necessarily for the masses. It's for me, it's for my community, it's for the people that come to the shows

that connect really deeply with it. Yeah. But it's just sort of like another addition to what we need, which is just human vulnerability and connection. Right. That's literally all I'm trying to, and that's what you do in your shows. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's kind of a weighty, there's a heaviness to it, but I'm 61 and to really accept that there is a, not limitations, but once you get to that place where you are who you are, if you're not happy there because of the reaction to you or how many people react to you, it's just a recipe for unhappiness. You have to accept it. Yeah, and it's not bad. But for years I was just sort of like,

and you saw what I do, I was sort of like, why doesn't everybody love this? I mean, doesn't everybody experience what I'm experiencing and they don't? why doesn't everybody love this? I mean, doesn't everybody experience what I'm experiencing? And they don't. They don't. And the people that do kind of lock in in a way where it hits them differently than the people

that are like looking at you like some totally different thing. They don't understand it, but they're like, all right, they're getting laughs, but the angle is just sort of like, oh, she's a little sad or he's got some problems, but it was entertaining. But then there are other people that are like,

oh, thank God, I'm not alone in this stuff. Yeah. So, but when you talk about the community, like what is the reaction in generally your experience with all the different tribes that you deal with in terms of performing and whatever? I mean, I think... They must be excited.

Yeah, because in general, the sign of a living language is that, not that people are just speaking it or that it's still around or that there are speakers of it. It's that if people are making, like writing books in the language or if they're writing songs or, you know, doing something with the language. And so I think like, I wish I could do more, but because I'm like kind of what I explained earlier, where the further in that you get, the harder it gets

because it's more about like a mind change than just learning the language. Right. And so I'm in that situation now where I'm having to be more serious about like the mental capacity of writing in the language now. But I think everybody that I've come across, they're like really starved for wanting new contemporary songs in an indigenous language.

And so, I feel like it's just been great to see people respond to that. Yeah. But in general. But you still gotta play to the masses a little bit. Well, yeah, I gotta play to English speakers. But that's what, I mean, I'm a little bit. Well, yeah, I mean, I gotta play to like English speakers. But that's what, I mean, I'm an English speaker. So it's like, I've got feelings inside.

I've gotta get out, you know, now. I can't wait to learn the Choctaw language in full. Right, but I just, I imagine not unlike, just having a voice from that community is representation in a way where, like where we're still moving forward. We still have who we are, whether it's English or not. I think I talked about that with Sterling and stuff. I read somewhere that he had said something to you about activism.

Do you remember? Oh yeah. It might have been, it might have been, like he had a podcast for a little bit, like before he got, before he got and turned into real big Sterling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That we did like a conversation on there once. And he did say something really interesting to me once,

which was about, And he did say something really interesting to me once, which was about, um... There's always this feeling like you're not doing enough, I guess, in quote-unquote activism of, like, pushing forward the, like... Agenda's not the right word, but, you know, pushing forward, like, the identity of Native peoples or something. And I think I was expressing that to him, but, you know, pushing forward, like, the identity of Native peoples or something.

And I think I was expressing that to him, just feeling like, I'm not going to these, like, protests, and I'm not going, because, like, I've got a job, and I've got to, like, do this. And he was like, you just being an active, like, Choctaw artist, that's activism. It's activism to be living, doing what you're doing at this moment. Something to that extent.

Well, he said, because we weren't supposed to be alive. Right, exactly. So that was just, I mean, I was like, oh yeah, okay. That makes sense. Good job. Good. Well, so like coming into like, so with Small Death,

that you feel was the sort of portal to you in exactly the way you wanted it to be, you know, why that record? What do you think got you to that place? Well, that record was really interesting because I was at a really dark time personally because I had just gotten into a pretty severe car wreck that really affected my, I couldn't use my hands at all.

What? Yeah, I had gotten into a bad car wreck and there was a lot of skeletal and nervous system damage. What happened? Were you on a highway? I was just going through busy like four-way intersection and like I got like T-bound. You got T-bound?

Yeah. That's my biggest fear in life. Yeah. It's, I still flinch going through like four ways. Yeah. It never happened to me, but I'm always scared of it. Yeah. And it kind of messed up my, it did a lot of damage to like my shoulders and my neck,

which affected my arms and my hands. And so I got really depressed because I couldn't do, I couldn't play guitar, I couldn't sit down and write. I didn't think that I could sit down and write songs. I couldn't even hold a cup. Oh my God. And I got really depressed. I was just laying in bed for six months, seven months,

just not in a good spot. And I finally started reaching out to like different therapists, physical therapists and stuff. And I started working through a lot of the stuff. But in the meantime, I just had like a voice recorder that I would just lay in bed and hum songs into. Oh yeah. And not thinking I would ever get to play them or anything.

I just thought this thing that I've spent my whole life doing, which is being a musician, I'm not gonna be that anymore. And now I have to figure out what I am now. I mean, that's the danger of is and are, if you're thinking about like really attaching like a caricature to yourself. The minute that that gets taken away, who the fuck are you, you know?

That's dangerous, which they had that figured out, right? They were like, we're not going to attach one thing to a person. You are a lot of things. I was attaching one thing and it got taken away from me and I lost it. Right, but the voice you found within that to save your brain is what that record is?

Yeah. Wow. So that became, when I finally got sort of, well, the other weird thing about that is that's when I started using open tunings too, because as I couldn't do like bar chords or things, as I started getting use of my hands, a friend of mine suggested,

just tune it to where you just have to hold down like one string or something at a time, it'll be easier on your hands. And that's when I started kind of going in that direction too. So that, like, you used open tunings on that record? Yeah, well that's kind of when I started using them, yeah. Well, that, well, because that creates a whole other vibe. Yeah, it's a different vibe.

And there's more space for other things to be doing stuff that you normally wouldn't hear. Right, because, you know, Keith Richards talks about that open G tuning as being kind of magical. Because when you have those open strings, the vibe is totally different, right? Well, it just gives you, it lets your brain go, oh, I've never noticed that space being open before.

So what can I put there? It just opens up the arrangements and everything too. But that was, yeah. So eventually I got, I could use my hands again and I went back to these little voice recordings and I started making demos and I was just like, I've got to turn, this is a record, so I've got to make the record.

But that's so amazing because like, if you write like that, as opposed to like, writing on paper or sitting with a guitar and trying to, or if you already have a melody or some chords, I don't know how you do it generally, but the connection to yourself when you're just sort of like, it's just like, this is, you know. Do you do that like with comedy?

Do you just ever like walk around or like- Talking to myself? Talking to yourself? No, what I usually do is I think and then. Step one. Is I think and then like if I make a connection in my head or I have a different way of looking at something, you know, I'll just, I'll make note of it.

And it's not a joke per se, but I know there's a turn there if it's not a story. You know, things, for me, usually I'll have an idea, but most of it evolves in real time on stage. Because it's almost like I corner myself. Like I have a place I wanna go, and then I'll just start going, and I'll hope the part of my brain that makes things funny

will step in and save me from embarrassment. Nice. I love that. That's so, I mean, that's, I feel like that's how I live my life. I'm just hoping that like I'll make, I'll make up the like punchline before I get caught with my pants down. Exactly. Yeah, that's that, that's the whole thing. And that's like that, that is the edge of it, you know? And then over time they kind of evolve, you know, like with this bunch of stuff, you know, in dealing with the political situation and my particular audiences and having to address that to sort

of bring the people together and then kind of this idea, I don't know if I was kind of doing it in Oklahoma yet. Did I do the evacuating with my cats story? Yeah. Yeah, well, that's sort of built into something because I had this, because I'm pretty heavy, you know, I can be pretty, it can be pretty heavy, a lot of that stuff, and I'm riding this edge. But I knew I had to address the political situation and that has a different tone to it. And then I got it in my head. It's like, all right, dude, you've established that.

So now, can you just be entertaining? Can you just, these people just like, let's just go. I mean, you've been doing this a long time. Nothing has to be, it doesn't have to all be so heavy. So that cat thing was just sort of this gift. And the way it kind of built out, you know, people, it's just hilarious. And then I get into trauma and stuff. That's what, that's kind of like what I do at my shows.

I tend to be, have little like quippy jokes and stories in between, which is someone has, well, a lot of people have noted to me like, that what I do and say between songs is very different from the songs. And it's like, yeah, because I know that like, this shit is heavy. Yeah, we're going in. And I'm not trying to like,

make y'all wanna kill yourself by the end of the night. Like, I would like you to understand that like, you can hold both things at the same time. And not only can you hold it, but- You have to. You have to, but it also shows this sort of, that you as a person, you know, it's a broad spectrum.

You know, like, and sometimes I think that's a liability for me because I have a fairly, it's not just a big personality, but like I, you know, I have a lot of different wavelengths that I go on and anytime you can engage as many of those as possible, I think it's a good thing as an expressive person. Because when you get locked into that thing that you said you were fighting with, you know, that there no are or is, that when you see yourself a certain way and then you kind of get locked into

that, it becomes a box and you don't acknowledge, you don't take chances. Do you know? Yeah. And when you do songs, if you wanna lighten things up with your personality, I think it's the best thing. But some people just wanna lock into the like, just do that thing, just make me sad.

Yeah, well, I mean, honestly, it's like probably easier to like market. Yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. So like it's a lot easier when someone has like a specific persona. Oh, totally. Yeah, she does this. Yeah.

He does that. And then you get in and then when you meet these people and you're like, well, I don't even know what you're talking about. Yeah. Like, because, oh, Marin's a cranky guy. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Had a cranky moment maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Or that's some part of me. Yeah. But you know, like I I'm not. I'm not, you know, that kind of stuff. Had a cranky moment, maybe. Yeah, yeah, or that's some part of me. Yeah. But you know, like I'm pretty expansive. Yeah, but that's, if they can't fit you into a box or you don't box yourself, it becomes sort of trickier to sell.

And then you've got to just do it on your own. Yeah. So once you, when you put out Small Death, and you got your hands back after? Yeah, I mean, I still have like some issues, but I can still, I can play again. But how did that inform the new record, Gumshoe? How did that, like what you did with Small Death?

Cause like, I just, I did a movie and there's a book, it's about Bruce Springsteen making Nebraska. And you know, he was in the middle of kind of doing the songs for Born in the USA. And then he had this kind of existential crisis. And he holed himself up in some rented house in New Jersey with a guitar and a four-track. And he did Nebraska. Do you know the record? Yeah. So, and he became obsessed with the sound that he got on the cassette.

And after they tried to do the songs in the studio, he's like, no, I need the cassette. I want that to be it. And there was no way to transfer the cassette. But the journey of him having this, he needed to make that record and it's a dark record, you know? And he comes out of that and he does born in the USA but he almost had to exercise himself.

But, and eventually I think it did inform some of his other stuff or it gave him a whole other range of ways to express himself. Did you find that with it? Yeah, I think, I mean, it's like what you were talking about earlier about like not trying to put yourself in a box, you know? I think that record, A Small Death, allowed,

that was the first time I like produced a record myself. And it was the first time I just fully trusted like every decision and every feeling that I had. And that opened up a whole new, and then I saw like how well it was received. And so that opened up like a whole new world of just trusting myself. Confidence. Yeah, confidence.

And also just like not trusting myself, but also when you trust yourself, it's not like your opinion is the end all be all, it's that you actually feel more comfortable receiving ideas and criticisms from other people because you know that you have a trust that it's gonna end up where it needs to be as long as you're present.

Right, right, you can collaborate, but you're not out of control. Yeah. Yeah, Ariana Grande talked about that, that she always sort of knew what she wanted, and she's working with big kind of pop machines, but it always comes back to her. It comes down to her.

Did she sit in this very seat? She did, yeah. And I'm like, I want some of her good vibes to rub off on me. Yeah, yeah, she's something. Yeah, but that confidence, like collaboration is a beautiful thing and you can find things

that you wouldn't have found on your own. It's so necessary for growth because you have to be able to like accept, like receive, not accept, but receive like how other people do their work, or else you're never going to learn anything new about yourself. And also trust their art.

Yeah. You know, so how did you make Gum Shoe? Who was it? Well, so Gum Shoe, even though it has ended up being about collaboration when we got to making the record, when I was writing the songs, it really was about opening myself up to collaborating with like

people. Like, and I'm talking about collaborating on like an interpersonal level, like collaborating in relationships, collaborating in friendships, romantic relationships, family relationships. And I've, I had always been such a lone wolf, so like, unsure of myself, so like I put up this really big like wall to protect myself from like what other people might have to say about what I was doing. And I kind of got to this point where I was like, I'm only understanding a very small

percentage of what the human experience is if I don't let other people into this like life. a very small percentage of what the human experience is if I don't let other people into this life. And I ended up in this, ended up, that sounds like, sorry. I was in this relationship for three years with somebody who was an addict. And I was struggling a lot with what the right thing to do there was.

And trying to be vulnerable and let this person in, but also trying to like protect myself, it was just like kind of an impossible situation. Well, yeah, it's like the co-dependency thing. Yeah, co-dependent no more. Yeah, that's a good one. Pia Melody's book? Yes, yeah.

The amount of NA meetings that I've been to over the past three years. Did you go to Al-Anon and stuff? Yeah, Al-Anon, yeah. A lot of this stuff. Oh my God, yeah. Co-dependon, yeah. Oh my god, yeah. Codependency's a fucker. Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, I'm still, I still learned so much from that, just in terms of like taking a chance on letting people just accept me for me and letting me accept people for who they are. But at the same time, it was just like, I was also trying to apply that to my friendships and my family relationships. Well, yeah, not let yourself be erased, you know, have boundaries and, you know, show up for stuff and not just be taken advantage of all that stuff.

Yeah. But you don't even get to that point of learning how to do that unless you kind of let yourself get taken advantage of. Does that make sense? Well, yeah, but you... Do you have to be vulnerable and like make those mistakes before you can get to that point? Right, but you don't choose to do that. It just happens. Yeah, it just happens. Yeah, and then you're like, I need to figure this out.

Reel this in. Yes, exactly. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But I mean, once you learn how to have some of those boundaries and let those vulnerabilities out in a way that you can handle it. But I mean, once you learn how to have some of those boundaries and let those vulnerabilities out in In a way that you know, you can handle it What you do learn is like you've taken a lot of shit and so you can kind of get a boundary, you know It's hard. Yeah, so that's what gum shoes sort of comes from

Yeah, and it comes from that whole process of like realizing that you have to open yourself up and be vulnerable Maybe not doing that in the most smart or productive or safe way. And then doing that process of finding your boundaries, finding, trusting yourself, trusting your own voice in a situation and your own feelings, and then being able to utilize that in a more confident way, I think. Yeah, yeah.

And it ended up kind of informing how we recorded the record too, which was just like me letting in a couple of co-producers with me and also recording the whole record like in a room together. No good. And we're not like separate and doing stuff separately, we're just like trusting each other in that moment in that room together and we're not like separate and doing stuff separately, we're just like trusting each other in that moment in that room.

And just sort of like, yeah, trusting that you can say, that's not really what I was thinking. Or like, what do you think about this? And just knowing that it's gonna end up how it needs to without putting this like very angry like walls of like, of like rules into a recording situation. Yeah. You have time to play it out. That was the biggest thing for me is because I've always worked on

such a tight budget that everything has to be planned and you've got a certain amount of days to do this. But with this one, we purposely went to this recording studio in Indiana because I could afford to just get it for 12 days. So we could have time and the luxury of letting ourselves sit in a environment and gel. That's great. I think the one that popped out at me was

that the bee attitudes one. Because that seems like you, kind of like I'm ready to find a life. Yeah, yeah. It's like, I need to, yeah. I want a piece of property. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm here, I'm a grownup and there's things I kind of want.

Yeah. And I have to be ashamed of that. Yeah, I mean, honestly, at the wrong time though, it's like, who wants to buy a piece of property right now? I don of want. And I have to be ashamed of that. Yeah, I mean, honestly, at the wrong time though, it's like, who wants to buy a piece of property right now? I don't know. Maybe are they cheaper or more expensive? I mean, sometimes when these horrible times happen. It's still more expensive, but maybe it'll get cheaper.

Do you want to stay in Oklahoma? I don't really have a, I don't know that I have a preference. I know that Oklahoma will stay like a massive part of my life and my future, just because it is just part of me so much. I don't know that I really fit in anywhere else, which is funny, because I don't even feel like I fit in in Oklahoma,

but I feel the most myself there. Like when I'm out here, I just feel like everyone's looking at me like, who is that? Like that person. Nobody's thinking that, I know that. But's looking at me like, who is that? Like that person. But nobody's thinking that, I know that. But that's me in my, I'm always viewing everything from up in the air.

Projecting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's like no one could, yeah, that's a weird thing that project. Because you know what, no one's thinking about you that much. I know, I know that. I used to, I had a drummer named Ann, I love her so much, but she was,

and she's so beautiful, and she would always spend so much time on her hair and makeup, and every time we would walk by like a storefront window, I'd catch her kind of like looking, because she wanted to make sure that like, she was always like presentable, and I remember saying once, I was like, nobody's looking at you.

That was probably not right though, because she was so beautiful, like, nobody's looking at you. Yeah. That was probably not right though, because she was so beautiful. So maybe everyone was looking at her. Well, it's what you think they're thinking. Yeah. And what you think they're judging. You know, most of the time, when you think somebody's thinking about you,

they're just like in their own world. Yeah. Because we all are. Yes, exactly. So, but the record's great, and I'm glad you brought me a vinyl. Yeah. And, but like before we wrap it up,

like how did you get involved with Fancy Dance? So I, how did I get it? Erica, the director, just reached out to me, and I'm assuming, so she was one of the writers on Reservation Dogs. Yeah. And the indigenous arts community is pretty like, Tight. Tight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've done music for Sterling's like older movies. And I did some music for some various indigenous like podcasts and stuff through the years. And I'm assuming, yeah, Erica just kind of like knew who I was through that. And we had a talk about doing this. I had never scored something that big.

You know, I'd never done like a feature. And we just. Scoring is different than just writing songs. Of course. You've got to engage with the vibe. It is collaborative in its nature. You know, you're trying to like make somebody else's vision happen more or less, not your own. And I think she just wanted to have somebody trying to like make somebody else's vision happen,

more or less, not your own. And I think she just wanted to have somebody that knew what that world was. I mean, it's shot in Oklahoma, you know, it's dealing with indigenous people, and I think I'm very comfortable with what that environment is like physically on screen. I mean, it looks like where I live.

So it's like, I know what that environment sounds like and feels like. I know those people. And we just had like a conversation. I think she had mentioned wanting it to feel very like organic. I think, I don't know if I had the idea or shoot it, but we were just saying, like, it's,

the majority of the movie is, like, two people. Yeah. And they're moving around a lot. And so, I wanted to make it feel like the only instruments that were being used were things that you could literally just stuff in a backpack and take with you. Yeah.

So, I really was utilizing the human voice a lot and like a tiny keyboard. So it was stuff that I knew that I could just put in a backpack and take with me. I was trying to keep it very small the whole time I was doing that. That's smart. You had a whole vision for it.

Yeah. Good for you. Well, it's good talking to you. Step one, think, think. Exactly. I'm glad we did this. Yeah, thank you for it. Nice to see you again. Nice to see you.

["Gum Shoe"] There you go. Samantha's new album, Gum Shoe, is available now. Hang out for a minute, folks. Gumshoe is available now. Hang out for a minute, folks. Calgary, also known as the blue sky city. We get more sunny days than anywhere in the country, but more importantly, we're the Canadian capital of blue sky thinking. This is where bold ideas meet big opportunity, where dreams become reality.

Whether you're building your career or scaling your business, Calgary is where what if turns into what's next. It's possible here in Calgary, the blue sky city. Learn more at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. You searched for your informant who disappeared without a trace. who disappeared without a trace. You knew there were witnesses, but lips were sealed. You swept the city, driving closer to the truth, while curled up on the couch with your cat. There's more to imagine when you listen.

Discover heart-pounding thrillers on Audible. People, just ahead of Mother's Day, we posted a special bonus episode on the Full Marin. It's a collection of some moms talking with me about mom stuff. Amy Poehler, Paula Poundstone, Allie Wong, Elizabeth Banks, Wanda Sykes, Brooke Shields, and my very own mommy, Toby Marron. All right, but so you're happy then, you're relaxed and I'm finally doing okay. Yes. Well, I love you, Mom. Is that it? I'm done?

Well, what do you want to talk about? I don't know, I just want you to know that I do love you. Okay. And I'm super proud of you, and I really, I can honestly tell you, Mark, that when I hear your interviews, I'm in awe. I just can't imagine how you come about bringing all these people out like you do. I think it's totally amazing.

Oh, all right. And I'm in awe, what can I tell you? That's totally amazing. Oh, all right. And I'm in awe. What can I tell you? That's the truth. Well, that makes me happy to hear. I'm glad that, you know, I've impressed you and that you're proud of me. And I'm glad you found this niche that is so great for you.

All right. I'm a little choked up now. Thank you, Mom. I love you more. I love you too. Bye. Bye. To get bonus episodes twice a week choked up now. Thank you, Mom. I love you more. I love you too. Bye. Bye. To get bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's a classic guitar riff from the Marin Vault. ["Marin Vault"] I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.