WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1643 - Carol Leifer

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Carol Leifer has been a standup comic for almost 50 years, but the knowledge she can impart from her lifetime of experience isn’t limited to the standup stage. That’s why Carol co-wrote the new book How to Write a Funny Speech, applying the building blocks of comedy to weddings, graduations and anywhere else one might speak in public. Carol and Marc talk about how to be funny at a memorial, her experience writing for the recent Oscars, and how she’s tapped into the current zeitgeist thanks to her teenage son. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Looking for your perfect place to call home? Lethbridge Land is shaping the future of our city with incredible communities like crossings, river stone and watermark. Each neighbourhood is designed with innovation, passion and responsibility to enrich your life today and strengthen Lethbridge for tomorrow. From vibrant urban hubs to serene, coolie views, there's a community waiting for you. Discover the lifestyle you've been dreaming of in a Lethbridge Land community. Visit lethbridgeland.ca and take the first step

towards your new home today. You sailed beyond the horizon in search of an island scrubbed from every map. You battled crackens and navigated through storms. Your spades struck the lid of a long lost treasure chest. While you cooked a lasagna. There's more to imagine when you listen. Discover best-selling adventure stories on Audible. All right, let's do this.

How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nick? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. I'm sitting here in my studio amongst random garbage detritus of my life,

a life's worth of detritus. I'm sorry, I just, I've only been home a few days and I've been through a lot over the last couple of years, kind of burning into that special that I taped on Saturday. And now right away, it just picks up. Like, all right, what are we gonna do for the marketing? What are we gonna do for the ads? What do you like?

Let's look at some pictures. What are we doing? Still coming down, man. But you know, I don't, I'm making some progress, folks. And it's progress in a mental health kind of way, I don't, I'm making some progress, folks. And it's progress in a mental health kind of way. I think, you know, I've talked to you about it.

I've been on that, uh, busporin' for a bit. And I can't really tell if it works. I can kind of tell because something's happening, like I can see the zone of my anxiety is somewhere in between who I am and the things I do to make myself crazy. Some of those things are legit. There's no reason not to feel anxiety about certain things if they should cause anxiety, but there is reason to perhaps not make it your life's work, which my life, it kind of is on some level, part of it.

But I think the Beast-Born has given me a little space within who I really am now and what I've become and whatever journey I've been on and the things I've overcome to make me who I am and the part of my brain that's just sort of like, nope, you're not him. And hey, how come we haven't done anything today to feel shitty about ourselves? We don't have to. I can still beat the shit out of you for no reason. You want to get hyper critical about how about your special? You remember that one line that you don't think went that well,

even though they got two shows of it from nine different cameras And maybe if you have to do ADR you can do it, but that doesn't matter because you fucked it up You fucked it up you fuck All right, let's move through the move. Let's move through that one. Let's let that go, but you know, it's always right there for you There are some things that I shouldn't feel anxious about that I do, food, my looks, my looks. It's just, there is, what I'm realizing is that there's a whole world of my brain that is constructed a certain way because of things kind of psychic detritus that just stacks

up and then I'm like, how do I even clean this? How do we get rid of this? I've got a neural pathway full of psychic detritus in all types of forms and shapes, memories, moments, patterns. So, I guess what I'm saying is, it's kind of working. I went to the shrink, made him get out of his house, not going to do Zoom for things that don't, that, you know, where human interaction is possible. And I made him sit across from me

and he gave me this sort of anxiety test, you know, and compared it to, I guess, the first time I was there. And he said, I'm about 30% better. He's, he'd like 50. So I don't know. And I also think that I'm getting some side effects, but I'm not obsessed with them because I don't know if there are side effects From the medicine or just side effects for the fact that my life has been fucking stressful

For the last year or so every day Three jobs always thinking never a free moment You know, but but I, I wanted to explore with you that zone between like, you gotta be grateful, give yourself credit for what you've overcome and who you are today. Like there's a lot of things like that I'm not anxious about. I wasn't anxious about the special.

I wasn't anxious about the material. I was a little, you know, on the fence about my shirt and I was hoping my hair would work out all right. But in terms of feeling fear going into it, zero, zero anxiety. But then I realized that that is who I am now, that I no longer have those fears. But my brain was sort of like, yeah, but we're pretty used to, you know, kind of making it difficult for you and having fears, you know, in general. So I'm glad that you're not fearing the thing you've worked on for two years and that you're ready to go. But let's do these other ones.

There's all kinds of dread we can muster up. And I know I've talked about this before before but I think that if anything is working it's that The medicine is giving me a little more space between who I am Where my brain's at now in terms of I'm okay. You know, i'm doing good work. I'm you know, i've learned a lot of it just all the stuff

that represents You know, I'm doing good work. I've learned a lot of, just all the stuff that represents the whole person, but I've still got this fucking garbage factory in my head. A goddamn detritus generator. Yeah, psychic detritus generator. Right? Huh? Today on the show, I'm talking to Carol leifer

She's she's been on a show a while back and I like her a lot She's on like back in 2011. So it's been a long time. That was episode 203 But she's a stand-up of the generation of Seinfeld and Larry David and you know a little you know younger than Richard Lewis, but from that crew She just recently won an Emmy for her writing on the show hacks and she's got a new book out called how to write a funny speech How to write a funny speech that's helpful for you people I Guess you know I don't know if it's still number one But it used to be the biggest fear people have is public speaking. But now it seems like

not enough people are afraid of it. I guess public speaking, when you do it alone in a room with your phone and you're speaking into it, is different than actually getting out there amongst the people. putting it on the fucking line man where you can't fucking do another take Doing a delete it do another take delete it do another take man. You got one shot at this fucker. Maybe two Yeah, I'm talking about my special Which should be out in July. I think the date is July 26 also That show I did with Owen Wilson, Stick, that trailer's getting around.

I guess that's premiering on June 4th, I think. I should be more on top of these things. I should promote myself more, or at least the things I'm involved with, right? The bad guys is coming. But anyways, fear of public speaking. Not enough of that going around. I think some, maybe some people should just turn it off. Shut it down. All right. You know, I know you're

charismatically engaging in whatever it is you do for 30 seconds at a time. But are you adding anything? Or are you just some content detritus? Yeah. Is that it? So look, it's time to take home security seriously. Okay? I have home security because I want my place to be safe, whether I'm home or not. And we've recommended Simply Safe for almost a decade as home security you can trust. From the start, we liked Simply Safe

because it was easy to set up and the representatives were great to deal with. But since then, Simply Safe has only gotten better. The current system has Simply Safe Active Guard outdoor protection, which prevents crime before it happens. Stop break-ins, package theft, and vandalism with live monitoring agents who can see, speak to, and deter suspicious individuals outside your home before they can do anything. Get away from the box! Right now, WTF listeners can get the same peace of mind we get by

using SimpliSafe and we wanted to make sure you get the best deal possible. 50% off a new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring, and the first month is free. Go to simplisafe.com slash WTF. That's simplisafe.com slash WTF for 50% off, and the first month is free. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. So now that I'm opening up this space in between who I am currently and all the things that have made me who I am, you know, it's time to figure out what do

I enjoy that isn't immediate gratification? What do I enjoy? What things would you like to be doing, Mark? Would you like to sit down and read more books? I don't think so. Would you like to maybe take in more films and art. Only if it's good and it's well-referred, you know, thoroughly vetted by people I respect who can tell me that it's great. Would you like to travel more?

I don't know. I don't love it. You know, pitch me some places. This is the other part of my brain, by the way. Would you like to buy some other things, like a new car? Why? Why? Why, just because I can?

Would you like to get better at guitar? Yes, but I never seem to do it. I don't, you know, I practice and I play, but it's still within my comfort zone. And sometimes I add new notes from new scales I learned, but I guess that's progress. Would you like to do more music in your life, maybe with other people?

Yes, yes, I would, but then you have to make plans and arrange things. Would you like to get rid of some of the books and pieces of things that you've collected over many years, either on purpose or not, and get rid of them? God damn it, yes I would! God damn it! But would that bring you joy? Maybe. Maybe some relief. But I've got to get beyond relief and into the joy thing. And I, you know, I'm back home and I'm just doing stuff. I'm cooking.

I, you know, I'm trying to isolate. Like what do you like to do? You know, I get up, you know, and I drink a lot of coffee. That guy, John, from Lantern Coffee, Grand Rapids, Michigan sent me some coffee and some chocolates. Fuck, dude. That shit is so good. I don't even know if you can get it online.

Lantern Coffee. Nice of him to send it, because it's weird because when you have an experience on the road and you're like Is this really the best I've had? Is this really amazing coffee? And you mention it on your podcast and then the guy sends you some and you're like, god damn it, it is.

But anyways, so I do the coffee. I do, I have several options of nicotine right now, which I could probably get off of. And then I exercise. But I like cooking. I started cooking. I like to have a full fridge of things I cook so I can have things to eat all week. Because then, but what about, how about that? Maybe you should enjoy more food out.

Why? I cook better at home. There's a lot of ways. Maybe you should spend more time with other people. But I do kind of, well, and do what? I gotta figure it out. Cause I like, I just made some Indian food yesterday from scratch and I just, I'm gonna make some more. I look forward to it.

But is that immediate gratification? because like I take time making things and I eat it like really fucking fast look if I can widen that zone between who I am and the psychic garbage manufacturing plant in my head, maybe I can, you know, kind of stop, slow the plant down, you know, go through the garbage a little bit and then figure out some things I like to do. The problem is, it's just like, is this it? Is this it?

And you know what? It kind of is. Even if you say like, is this it? And I know what? It kinda is. Even if you say like, is this it? And I'm like, I'm not gonna do it this way. I'm gonna do it another way. Eventually you're gonna hit, is this it? You know, when does that sentence, when is that question answered?

Is this it? Yes. And it's amazing. Is this it? I hope so. Wow, so good. Cause as soon as like, you know, you do that so good and then like a couple of days later you're like,

ah, it's okay. And you're just, then you're back to is this it? God damn it. Just standing on a pile of fucking psychic detritus psychic detritus dump I'm alright though the good part I think that the the part of me that you know feels proud of himself feels like he's doing good work enjoys things he's gonna win man he's I'm rooting for him I'm rooting for him. I'm rooting for him. Ooh, I found this- this coconut yogurt. Look, I'm a plant-based motherfucker right now,

who no longer says vegan because of annoying vegans. But um, Coco June coconut yogurt. Holy fuck. I was doing Coco- Yo for a while cuz like I like yogurt But you want to get that probiotic stuff because you know it's supposed to be the answer to everything Is this it is a probiotic it is then yes, it is But this cocoa June stuff is fucking great Isn't exciting when you find something you love to fucking just stick in your fucking mouth and eat it? Isn't it the best thing when you're like, man, I'm just going to keep eating

this until I don't like it anymore. It's great. See, I know joy. It's finding something that you just want to fucking shove into your mouth and keep eating until you're just like, you're beyond full, you're beyond happy, and you're just sort of in a world of fuck. How's that for an ad for a coconut yogurt? Eat until you're in a world of fuck.

Coco June yogurt. It's very good though. It's hard to do the non-dairy stuff, and they just fucking nail it. Okay, look, Carol Leifer is here. Her new book that she co-authored with Rick Mitchell is called How to Write a Funny Speech for a Wedding Bar Mitzvah Graduation and Every Other Event You Didn't Want to go to in the first place. It's available now wherever you get books and this is me and Carol talking.

Puthoria. That feeling you get once you've finally pooped. Using the power of natural Senna from the Senna plant to promote bowel movement, Senocot laxative gently relieves Imagine waking up to breathtaking landscapes, vibrant culture, and a welcoming community. New Zealand is calling. If you are a passionate early childhood, primary or secondary school teacher, New Zealand says, come teach us. With up to $10,000 New Zealand dollars

in relocation support, now's the time. Make your move. Find out more about moving to New Zealand dollars in relocation support, now's the time. Make your move. Find out more about moving to New Zealand to teach at workforce.education.govt.nz. Open to existing qualified primary, secondary and ECE teachers. Note that this grant is only disbursed after a teacher has arrived in New Zealand and meets the other accompanying criteria. So, Kathy Ladman is opening for me. That is so great. For the special.

Fantastic. And, you know, I knew her when I was a door guy at the Comedy Store, when I was 22. I used to see her. I didn't know you were a door guy at the Comedy Store. Yeah, it was a brief period. It was almost a year. I got very fucked up on drugs and I had to leave. But I was a door guy in, I guess it would be 86, 87.

Okay. So I used to see Cathy, like, you know, when she was like young. Yeah. And I always liked her. I never thought she liked me, but I think she has one of those personalities where anyone could assume that about her.

Yeah. I don't think she's got a look. She likes me. She's just very, you know. But I decided I'm going to have her open for me, because for one, as we were talking about before we turned the mics on, there's this like this Jewish thing that doesn't, you know, Jews sort of dictated what comedy was for decades.

Yes. And it's just gone. I know. And, you know, it was the sort of through line of American stand-up, American comedy, writing, everything. It was all that rhythm. It was all from that. Yes.

And it's gone, the people that do it are gone, but she's still here. She is. And you're still here. Yes. And she's got a very specific kind of delivery that is very nostalgic for me, but also very true to what I grew up with.

Yes. And I just thought like, well, that would be nice to have that. Oh, she's a great opener for you. And I've been working with her a lot, me, her, and Wendy Liebman. Oh, really? Yeah. We're going to Mother's Day.

We're going to be at Flappers and Burbank. Really? Yes. Do you tour with it out in the world? I do. And what do you call it? Is there a name for the tour? Is it like Three Jewish Ladies or something like that?

Her-larious. Of course. It has to be that name. Why didn't I figure that out? Come on. Why didn't I guess that? Her-larious. And what do you guys do, like 20 each, half hour each?

We do a half hour each. We just headline the Comedy and Magic Club. We have a great, great time. Yeah? Yeah, I bet This is not an insult that dear. Have you thought about like playing Jewish things? Of course we have yeah. Yes Yeah, we did Tarzana we did a country club in Tarzana. That was about 99%

Jewish and it's fantastic, but I do a lot of speaking at temples, at JCCs. You do? Federation, oh yeah. That's very big on my docket. What do you mean? Like this is a speaking engagement, so you're like writer, comedian, producer, whatever,

we'll discuss her life and show business. Exactly. Okay. Judaism is in show business. Exactly. Okay. Judaism is in my DNA. Right. Yeah. Okay. So that means what?

So I talk a lot about, Marc, my Jewish upbringing. You know, how it's impacted me through my life. And then people love my story in show business because I've been around for so long. Right, and like I know we covered probably a lot of it way back, but it's been a long time. But I mean, like you were a standup, like I remember you from being around when I was younger.

And then you were a writer forever. Yes. But what was the first writing gig again? My first writing job was on SNL. Oh. Yeah, in 85. Was that the weird year when Lauren was gone? Yes, yes, the weird year.

Uh-huh, and who brought you in? What happened was I auditioned. There was a showcase at the comic strip, and Al Franken saw me with Jim Downey, who was the head writer for many of yours. And right after they approached me and said, sat at the comic strip and Al Franken saw me with Jim Downey, who was the head writer for many years. Yeah. And right after they approached me and said,

we really love for you to be on the writing staff, if you're into it, am I into it. You just have to meet Lauren. So I was ready to move from LA back to New York to do this. And I got ready for my meeting with Lauren and had everything planned and my outfit and the whole thing. And I went to this rehearsal hall to meet him where he was auditioning cast members for that season.

And he came out and he said hello. And then he said, I don't do a good Lauren. He said, Jim and Alf said you'd be great for a writing job. You know that it's a lot of late nights. And I said, yeah. And he said, okay. And he went back to the room, and that was my meeting with Lauren Michaels.

And then he was gone though? Like, did he leave? Was that the year he wasn't around? No, no, that was the year he was around. It's just a story of my you know, my 32nd meeting with Lorne Michaels to get a writing job on SNL. Oh, you had met him many times before? No.

Never. No, that was it. And how long were you there? I was there that season. That was it? Yeah. What happened? They, you know, they got rid of most of the cast

and most of the writers after that season. But I was part of a murderer's row of writers that year. Who was there? Smigel, Don Novello, John Swartzlander, George Meyer, Jack Handy. Yeah. Yeah, it was a pretty great crew. It's so wild, man,

because I'm just starting to feel this sort of, I'm 61, so I'm just starting to feel like, holy shit. And because of COVID, I theoretically should be 58. You know, like it happened to, all of a sudden I'm like, what happened? It's like, well, we lost three years. But now I'm looking around and I imagine it happened for you. Like it just happens where

all your peers were like older people. Yes. And it's bizarre. I know. Because you hold them in your memory as so like you're young people. And now all of a sudden I'm looking at my contemporaries like David Cross or you know, Todd Barry is some of the guys I started out with at Tell. And I'm like, we're the old guys now. Yeah. The fuck happened? It's crazy. Right? It is crazy, absolutely. Yeah. And the other thing we were talking about before,

which like I realized, you know, after Richard, you know, passed away, like I don't know what exactly happened. Why, you know, like everything else, comedy became non-Jewish. Yeah. It frightens me, but I also understand it. I used to have a theory that once anti-depressants were introduced, the tolerance for Jewish complaining

was diminished, right? Like you'd see Richard Lewis, I'm like, you know they have medicine. You know? We can solve this. Yeah, screw your act. Yeah, we solved this problem. There's meds.

Exactly. Yeah. But I don't really know what happened, but I guess like lately, I've been, you know, kind of nostalgic for it. Cause I don't see, anytime I see somebody who is fundamentally Jewish, like have you seen Robbie Hoffman?

She's on Haxus season. Yes, yes, yes. That is crazy. Mm-hmm. You're like, she grew up. She's so funny. She's so Yes, yes, yes. That is crazy. Mm-hmm. Like, she grew up... She's so funny. She's so funny, but she grew up Orthodox in this community where they still speak Yiddish. So she's actually like predates, you know, modern comedy Jews.

Yeah. And she has this delivery that's genuine, but it's like just post-Yiddish. It's crazy. Wow. Yeah So what this public speaking things? I know you wrote this book. Yeah, and when I looked at it I was sort of like I'm not even sure I know How to do public speak really well, I mean I'm like any time I've done it. Yeah, it's always off It's I'm kind of I'll write things down Uh-huh, but I don't think in terms of the structure

or who I'm talking to, like, there was a brief period where I would go out and make myself available for keynote type of things. But eventually I just get too personal, and I do, it's not that I'm doing my act, I just get too honest, and they're sort of like, it doesn't fall within the expectation of what public speaking is.

Yeah, but I would think, because Rick Mitchell, who I wrote this book with, who is a comedian and wrote on Ellen's talk show for many seasons, usually comedians, I love speaking at events, and he does too. I would think that you would love, not specifically keynotes for corporations or groups, but that I would think people would go to you right away for

a wedding or a memorial. No, I've never done either of those. Wow, I'm very surprised. But so do you have a chapter for memorials? Yes, yes, absolutely, because you know what I've found, and especially at our age, going to more memorials? I know. I really enjoy speaking at them because I find it to be very cathartic for me personally. But also in the book, we talk about, you know, people are afraid to be funny at

celebrations of life. Actually people kill. Right? Kevin Newell in a Gary Shanweig memorial was the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. I saw that. I was there. Oh my God. Amazing. I was there too. It was crazy. Yes. So funny. But to bring up certain stories about someone, people love it.

Like, I just spoke at my cousin's memorial. He passed away of cancer at 55. Oh, God, that's too young. Yeah. And the thing that everybody loved about him, he was a great people person, social butterfly, just so much fun. So I told this story about how we had gone to see the Beach Boys together, him and his wife and me and my wife at the Greek. And I said afterwards, we were invited to the little after party.

And I said, I really want to go over to my glove of the Beach Boys and say hello because I opened for them in 1982 at Harris in Lake Tahoe. I want to see if he remembers me. He's out of his mind though, right? Mike Love? Yeah. I don't know if he's out of his... yeah. I just know him as a Beach Boy. He's just a Beach Boy. Yeah, but anyway, so we're at the little after-party and I'm trying to work my way over to Mike. I can't do it, I don't see my opportunity. I go to get a drink at the bar. I turn around, my cousin Jay is talking to my glove

like he's known him for 40 years. So much so that when I walk over, Jay is like, oh hey, Carol, come here. Hey, Mike, do you remember my cousin Carol? She opened for you a million years ago. And people love, I loved telling that story and people loved it because it really encapsulated who my cousin was. So yeah, we do talk about.

Did he remember you? No. No, not for a second. Did he even politely say that he did? He just kind of nodded, you know, the vague nod. Yeah, because they don't pay attention who's the opener. No, and it turned out to be the worst gig of my life. Really?

Yes. It's that memorable. Ugh. But you still wanted to see if he remembered you. I just wanted to see. What if he had said, like, oh, you had a tough night that night? I would have appreciated that, because they used to tune up while I was still on stage and I had to go backstage.

I had no manager agent with me and go like, Beach Boys, can you please not tune up while I'm out there? So I thought maybe, he'd even maybe apologize this many years later. But none of that's important to the piece from the memorial. Yes. See, I would bring that stuff up.

Right? See, that's my instinct. Yes. It's like you do the funny thing about the guy and then you go, yeah, but I'm a little pissed off. That would make it about me somehow. But that's fine. I mean, people would, if I had added that into the story,

they would have still enjoyed it, I think. Well, that's one thing about that audience. You know, the worst that can happen is they walk out going, it's a little weird to part with that. No, but I love giving speeches and that's why we... But like, when you break it down though, like, let's say for a memorial, what are the points? The points are to reminisce about equalities, about the person that you remember, that people remember stories, stories in any speech are the

gold of the speech. And also, you know, being heartfelt, it's always important. I feel at the end of speech to not be, you know, Joe comedian and wrap it up with something heartfelt. Yeah. And certainly with my cousin Jay, it was easy because his death was really hard and such

a great person and to lose his life at such an early age as you know, it's difficult. Yeah, for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And acknowledge that, acknowledge your own feelings about the loss. Don't be afraid to have to emote. You don't have to be funny necessarily.

Though I would imagine as a comic and writing this with a comic, you have to sort of try to give advice how to balance that out. Yes. Like I just said, it's like, you can make it about yourself if it's appropriate for the event.

Mm-hmm. And it includes, you know, and it's part of the story. Yes, but to veer away from yourself and focus on the person. So like, what other, so there's weddings? So that would be some more thing you focus on? Well, look, there are basics that people don't know that we could not believe. Like keep it five minutes and under your speech. Do a type five. Oh my God, how many times

have you gone to a wedding, an event? There's booze involved, so you don't know what you're going to get. Exactly. Do you say don't drink too much before you talk? We say have a drink. Have one drink. Right, yeah, yeah. But then people have seven more. And then they're hammered up there. And how uncomfortable is that? It's memorable, but uncomfortable.

And people are recording it. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So this is important now more than ever. Sure. Yeah. And what are the other chapters for? Like a business or like what?

I guess I could look in the table of contents. Yeah, well, there are a lot of basics, Marc. Yeah. Because, as I mentioned, a lot of people are not aware of them. Were you at Richard Lewis' memorial? No. Oh, okay. I was out of them. Were you at Richard Lewis's memorial? No. I was out of town. Well, it was a really nice memorial.

Oh, this just happened a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. But people get up and they start talking about the person and they don't say who they are to the person. So you're up there, they're up there, and you're sitting there thinking, is this a relative? Is this a roommate? Went to camp with it? It becomes like an episode of- And that's distracting your brain. Yeah, NCIS.

Who? What? So for people to go up and say who they are to the person. Yeah, right, right. You know, that's important too. But we do go into how to make something funny with steps, but even if you're not, you don't feel like doing the work, we have a whole section at the end of what we call jokes to steal. Oh good. For any occasion. Right. Take the jokes.

Oh good. Put them in your speech. No one will know. That's good, that's helpful. Yeah, and templates, Mark, we have templates where you just kind of fill in the blanks. Really? Like mad libs. Oh yeah.

Yeah, wanted to make it easy. Oh, that's good. Easy for people. That's very helpful. Because it's one of those things I would think this book would sell because it is the most terrifying, the scariest thing.

It's the top of the list most of the time. Right, most people's greatest fear is talking in front of large groups of people. But comedians' greatest fear is not talking in front of large groups of people. Or bombing in front of large groups of people. That's the greatest fear. It's like, I can talk in front of people,

but there's that moment where you're like, I don't know if this is gonna go too well. Because we know what we're there to do. And you see the challenge of it and you're like, oh fuck. It's odd that no matter how long you do this, there's that sixth sense that happens when you're backstage and you're just like listening or assessing an audience, you're like, that table.

That's gonna be a problem. You can tell. You can. Yeah. It's crazy. It is really. Like there's an energy in the room, you're like, there's something wrong over stage right. Yep.

What is it? And then you're like, that's that guy. You can't, it's like a radar that we have. It's crazy. That's very strange. You know what's so funny? I just did Pete Holmes podcast and he said something that I've never heard before but is so true.

He said, you ever find you have a bad set and the next set after that is good. Kind of almost guaranteed. Oh yeah. Yeah. You find that too? Well, yeah, because, you know, whatever you put out, like it happens, like if you do a spot at the Comedy Store in the main room and then you got an original room spot, the main room can kind of go either way,

because it's a big room, and no matter how many people in there, it can be less than satisfying, and you might have a hard time connecting. But when you're two in a night and you've already put yourself out like that, and you have to put that like little bit of armor on that you used to do all the time,

you know, the next set you're gonna be like, fuck you. You can't hurt me. I just was pummeled down the hall. And it's like, it is like a self-preservation thing. Sure. Like, I'm not gonna go home tonight upset. Yeah. Over my dead body.

You don't want to. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I've said that on stage at the Comedy Store before. Like, you know, whatever happens here, I'm not gonna drive home thinking I made the wrong decision with my life. So, you're not gonna do that to me. Yeah. Or I'm not gonna do that to myself.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but there is that idea where you're excited to do it to me, or I'm not gonna do that to myself. Yeah, but there is that idea where you're excited to do it and you know you're good at it, and then it's just part of the job. You go out there and it wasn't good, and then you're like, oh, fuck. And then you gotta go at the next one a little harder. Absolutely.

You know, until you find the zone where you can let it down a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, our life is crazy. And I've gotten very, you get spoiled too when you have an audience. Like I make sure I go do the store just so I can perform for people that don't know me. You know, like if I go out to the theater. Well, I'm surprised.

I would think when you go out on stage, people know you. No, no, I'm not, I'm not like, my profile is not that big. Like they're not, I'm not a household name or anything. So like it's gonna be people that kind of know me or don't know me, but people do know me. But if I go do my audience, they all know me. It's almost like cheating. So I'm-

Right, but it's good for you. Yeah, it's nice, you know, to, but like that spoils you in a couple of ways. Cause like then, like sometimes I'll do clubs where, you know, I know that they didn't necessarily all come for me cause I'm working it out at a couple ways, because like then, like sometimes I'll do clubs where, you know, I know that they didn't necessarily all come from me because I'm working it out at a comedy club, not a theater. No, there's no walk-ups at theaters.

Like, I wonder what's going on tonight. Yeah. But like sometimes if like, if I get to, I talked about last night on stage, I had a bridal party, you know, a bachelorette party at ComedyWorks. Uh-oh. Yeah, but like I knew most of them were my audience,

now I gotta babysit these fucking idiots? Yeah. And I was like, how can, it was a long story. But I mean, the point is, is like, I forced myself to go do the regular work just to stay tough. That's good, right. You know what I mean?

Just to, you know, see if the shit works with an unsympathetic bunch. Yes. In a 15-minute slot. And also following, I'm sure, some heavy hitters. I still get mad about that. I have not been able, because I know when you have 15 minutes

and you're after somebody that's a killer, you're like, well shit, now the first five is fucked. Exactly, you gotta work your way out of the hole. I've got tricks that I can do with certain performers, because you end up following some of the same people. Ah. Can you tell me one of your tricks? Well, like, Pauly doesn't kill necessarily,

but he's Pauly. Yeah. And he's one of these guys, there's a couple of, there's a tradition at the Comedy Zone, some performers bring the comedy show, some performers bring the lights in, like they'll have the spotlight as opposed to the full stage lighting.

He's one of those guys, him and Argus, they do this thing, Alan Stevens used to do it, but where they have a choice, so they get the spotlight as opposed to full stage lighting. So like he does his thing, and people are excited, he was a big star. And then the lights come back out, and then he brings me up.

And generally, just to clear the slate, I'll say, Paulie Shore, ladies and gentlemen, I'll go, yep, that's what he looks like now. I use the same line for Spade, too. Well, there you go. Now you're off to a good start. You're in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Or you're off to a good start. You're in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Or if I have to follow Whitney, Cummings or Eliza Schlesinger, I always get up and go like, okay, let's just take it down a notch. Or I'll say, let's shift from whatever, whatever to cranky Jew. Like anything that'll get me, you know. Yeah. Oh, that's really smart. Yeah, because you only got 15 minutes.

Yeah. See, I can't, I don't work at the store. I can't get on there. Really? Yeah. I don't know, they just changed bookers. I don't know what's going on there. Where do you work?

Improv? I work a lot at Comedy and Magic Club. Do you live over there? No. Well, I live on the west side. Well, that's good. Yeah. For me, I'm like, I don't,

that's like a different state to me. I'm like, do you ever work there? I'm like, I don't even know how to get there. Well, it's in Hermosa Beach. I know. Yes. It's like an hour from here. And I do the Laugh Factory a lot.

You know what I love to do is Kevin Nealon's new material night. Have you done that? Oh really, where's that? At Laugh Factory? At the Laugh Factory, but you have to go up and it has to be all new material. How great is that for us comics?

It's great. And how's the crowd? They're great. Yeah? They're great. And just, you know, normally where we have to go up and shoehorn in a new bid here, shoe, you know, between two.

So you can bring your notebook if you want? Absolutely. Yeah, someone does that in the belly room at the store sometimes. Morning in a new bed here, shoe hook, you know, between two. So you can bring your notebook if you want? Absolutely. Yeah, someone does that in the belly room at the store sometimes. I think Fahim does it, where you can just work out shit. It's fantastic. It's a great world we live in now

because of podcasts and everything else is that people like to be part of the process. That was unheard of before. Yeah. You know, I used to bring notebooks up and people were like, no, what the fuck, is he? He doesn't have this- Is he going to school? Yeah, he doesn't have this shit worked out already.

We paid for a pro show. Does he do that every week? He does it once a month. Oh, yeah. Never asked me. He asked me to go on his hiking show, but he doesn't ask me to do his new material. Well, you know what?

But that's the thing. I reach out to him and say, can I come on? Do it and work it out? Yeah. Yeah. And you got a bunch of new jokes and you do it I and I love it because as you know ten new bits maybe

Two or three will work, but they're there to hear even the clunker ones Yeah, and you know when you have a new bit that works. Yeah, there is no better feeling Oh, yeah But I imagine like I think we probably work differently structurally. Like I go up with an idea and hope that the punch line comes. I imagine and then I'm sort of like ah it happened again. The gift. But I think that you're probably more structured and you write the joke. Yes.

It's good. Like I always regret. Whenever I write whenever I come up with a well structured joke off the cuff I'm like, I know how to do that. Why don't I do it more often? That's what I got to do. But you have a new hour that you're doing. Yeah, it's like an hour and a half. Yeah, hour and a half. So that takes a lot of working out.

Yeah, it works out, but it's all sort of oral tradition with me. Like, you know, I have premises and I have bits and pieces, and they all kind of become fluid over repetition, and it just naturally kind of forms itself, you know, it's all in my head though, which is, you know, that can go either way, you lose a lot of stuff. Like if you work with solid jokes, you have them, you're like, what was that one?

Oh, I have it written down, with me, I just have like cats. You know, and then, what the fuck, which one, you know? So it's not the most efficient way, but it all keeps me on my toes, which I think is part of it. But you never went through a period where you stopped doing standup? I did a little bit during writing for Seinfeld.

I stopped, but I learned my lesson the hard way. Then I went back up on stage after a couple of years of not going on stage, and then it was like, oh, holy shit, I'm losing, I'm losing my, all the experience that I had before. It's interesting, right? You know, it's like a muscle. It's like the gym, that's why you gotta, like.

Yeah, use it or lose it. Yeah. So, since then, I always? You know, it's like a muscle. It's like the gym, that's why you got like- Yeah, use it or lose it. So since then, I always- Keep it, keep it. Yeah, go back on. It's like going to the gym, just to stay in that relationship. Completely.

Yeah, and that's great. But also you're doing like real show, you're doing working. Yeah. And you're still, and you wrote, I mean, I can't, you wrote that, you were on the staff of that last Oscars? Yes. With Conan?

Mm-hmm. So funny. And you've written for him. Wasn't he amazing? Well, you know, I've known him forever. Like I was a recurring guest on his show. He used to do panel. I always wanted to be-

Oh, on the NBC show? Yeah, I always wanted to be the Richard Lewis to him. Like I wanted to, like I did two stand-up sets early on, 96 probably. and then from there on out, I'm like, can I just do panel? I wanna be the panel guy. I wanna be the guy that come sits down and they're like, uh-oh, what's going on with Mark, you know?

So we built that relationship. So I've known him a long time and I know how he works. And it was a very funny thing watching it. Cause I saw him at Largo like two nights before, you know, kind of working shit out. I'm so surprised that nobody taped it and leaked it. Yeah, I don't know There's only certain people that do that, you know and at Largo, that's not really the audience that would do that Yeah, that's true You know no one ever does that to me ever and if they did it's like it's not gonna be like a viral thing

You know they'll they'll achieve the disappointment I do when I post a reel on Instagram. They think they got some hot item with my bit that I haven't done on a special yet, and it's got 200 views. I'm like, you really got me. I guess I can't do that on the special. But, so I'm watching Conan and like, and I turn on the Oscars, because I love the Oscars. I always have. I like, I felt over the last few years,

there was a sense of what I grew up with in terms of the community of Hollywood showing up. It's not that it's no longer there, they're just old or they're gone. So, you know, you're not gonna see Jack sitting up front anymore because he's a hundred and I'm not sure how well he is. But I miss him, you know, you're not going to see Jack sitting up front anymore because he's 100 and I'm not sure how well he is. But I miss him, you know, so there's this changing of the dynamic.

Exactly. It's still the greatest show on earth. I love it. I love the spectacle of it. But I didn't know how Conan would do and I know Conan and like I'm watching it and I watch him come out and he does the first joke and then he started to do that thing he does where he, you know, he has a moment of insecurity and he buries the joke. You know, like, I know, I got it, whatever.

Like it's an insecure thing and I'm like, don't do it. And then like after the first two jokes, he was like, oh. Yeah. Oh, like he just killed so hard and the confidence was so, it was like, it was beyond anything I've seen from him. Yeah, but you know what? I knew he was gonna do great

because right before the show, I went backstage to wish him luck. Yeah. And he was, you could see it in somebody's, just the way they are, he was cool as a cucumber. And he was like, thanks, Carol. You know, I just wanna go out there and I wanna have fun.

And that's what he did. Yeah. But I've seen that look of panic before House goes out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he just was in the zone. And he brought it back to what I thought the set was tasteful, like, you know, the way it looked, you know, and I thought the way they handled the audience was good. And I just thought it came because I asked him the night I saw him,

I said, you're gonna do musical number? He's like, I don't know. And then he fucking did one. And it was just like, it was totally his own thing. Conan musical number, but he brought back the sort of weird celebration of the structure of the show. Yeah, he did. And it was great.

So what were the conversations about that in the writer's room? Well, Conan had his own team of writers, and I'm part of the team that handles the show. Okay, yeah. So we talk with the presenters and go over the things that were not Conan related. Oh, so you're writing the bits for the people that present? Yes. Yeah. And I'm usually on the show team. Conan related. Oh, so you're writing the bits for the people that present? Yes.

Yeah. And I'm usually on the show team. I've worked on it, this is my 11th time. In a row? No, not in a row. Over a number of years. But I've written for some of the great hosts, like Billy Crystal and Steve Martin and Alec Baldwin

and Whoopi and- Alec Baldwin hosted? Yeah, yeah, with Steve Martin. Alec Baldwin and Whoopi and- Alec Baldwin hosted? Yeah, yeah, with Steve Martin. Okay. Yeah. I don't remember that one. I missed a couple. I remember it because Steve Martin wanted to have a writer's session up at his house.

And you know, from when I came up, Steve Martin was like everything to me. I'm such a fan. And it was totally one of those moments of like, oh my God, I'm in Steve Martin's living room writing jokes with him. Like it was really like, yeah, if I go now, I got that moment. Yeah, completely, completely.

I feel like I've lost some of those moments having done this show for so long and kind of talking to people for long periods of time. Yeah. Like I just see people as people, but there are certain people that I'm like, oh my God, what am I gonna do with this guy? How am I gonna keep it together?

Yeah, like who? Albert Brooks. Like it took me years for him to finally do it. And of course he's like, he didn't wanna do it at his house. He didn't wanna come here. Yeah of course he's like, he didn't want to do it at his house. He didn't want to come here. So he got a room at that, what's that little beautiful hotel on Santa Monica? It's like a kind of old school kind of deco.

It's very kind of a boutique. I can't remember the name of it. But he gets a room there and it was hilarious. It was just hilarious to talk to him. He was like, we were at Shanling's memorial and I'd been trying to get him for years on the show. I remember we were at Shanling's memorial, everyone's waving, he comes up to me,

puts his hands on my back, he goes, let's do it now. Oh my God. And Larry was another one who would never come on the show. He never came on. And, but he eventually did. How'd you get him? Well, he was doing those, he was gonna do those conversation,

moderated conversations with him, that he did a few of them. Yes. And he wanted me to do the first one. So I did the first one. I didn't know it was gonna be a thing, and he didn't either. of them. Yes. And he wanted me to do the first one. So I did the first one. I didn't know it was going to be a thing and he didn't either. But like, oh my God.

And you worked with him a lot. Yes. Seinfeld and Curb. I have to assume, and I love them, that you don't know what's going to happen. Like leading up to it, like, you know, the agreement we had was I could use it as a podcast and we do it, it was live in DC, a few thousand people. And I was gonna structure it, you know, like,

like I do here to have a, like, kind of a life arc conversation. And, you know, and his assistant had sent me all these, you know, this screen, this montage of him through different years. And I'm putting together this whole interview and he goes, what are we talking about? He's telling me, well, I'm like, well, I got the thing from your assistant

where I thought we'd go through the whole life. He's like, what? What are you talking about? What are you talking about? What are you, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm like, you know, you're Bar Mitzvah and everything. He's like, no, no, no, no. So like by the time, a few days before, he's like, I don't wanna talk you're talking about. I'm like, you know, you're Bar Mitzvah and everything. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. So like by the time, you know, a few days before,

he's like, I don't wanna talk about any of that. I'm like, all right. So what are we gonna do? He's like, I don't wanna talk about politics. Let's just, I wanna just be entertaining and I don't wanna talk about my life. And I'm like, oh fuck. And it was driving me crazy, you know?

And then like, you know, like the night before, you know, he calls me up, he's like, do whatever you want. I'm like, fuck. And then like the day of, I'm in D.C. for the show, and he calls me over in the day, and I literally thought like, he doesn't want to do it anymore.

That'd be great. I mean, maybe he won't want to do it. And he- Add phone call, right. It'd be a relief. But he's like, okay, you good? You ready? And it went great. You know, I just really, I learned a big. Yeah. But he's like, okay, you're good, you ready? And it went great.

I learned a big lesson though, to just be gracious. It wasn't about me and just throw to him the things that he's gonna get laughs with that I know and that I know he wants to talk about. And then just shut up and then like wait till he Peters out and then do another one. Yeah. And that's it.

See? Yeah. Yeah. But when you go to Steve Martin's house, so were you able to keep it together to pitch jokes and stuff? Yeah. I mean, after the initial shock of zooming out and, oh my God, I'm sitting here writing jokes with my idol, Steve Martin. Yeah. Then you get back into it. And Larry David I know literally since my first day

in show business, Mark, because he was the MC at Catch, Catch, Rising Star, when I did my open mic night, who put me through. So I do, I know him forever. So you know how he works. Yeah, especially because working at Seinfeld and knowing how to pitch to him and Jerry, you know, was a great training ground also

because, you know, Larry's very cut and dried. And I think that's really one of his greatest qualities because you can pitch something to him and they're like, no, you know, Larry's very cut and dry. And I think that's really one of his greatest qualities because you can pitch something to him and they're like, no, you know, the biggest put down at Seinfeld was like, no, I could see that on another show. Right. But if he was excited about an idea,

he would get genuinely excited, you know. Well, the funny thing that involved like with me engaging with him was I can make him laugh. Mm-hmm. You know so that is good. Yeah. You know because it's a rare thing sometimes especially with funny people but like he's got a great laugh and you can get him. Yes you can. Yeah. I know that from Curb because he would break up all the time. Yeah. Yeah so that that was easy but like did you have have you had trouble with like,

hosts to live, like, with non-comedic hosts? And I imagine presenters, that's gotta, you write these jokes and everyone's on board, but you don't know if they're gonna dump them or not, or like, if they're gonna get, pull them off. Yeah, you don't, but the beauty of working with people is they really do want to be good. They don't want to go, you know, it's really tough for them because they're mostly actors

so they don't know how to go out and be themselves. Or be funny necessarily. Yeah, but we really work with them to make sure that they're 100% down with what they want to do and they give a lot of feedback and of course we take it and, you know, come up with something. I think people also know that as a stand-up also, they know when they work with me that I'm going to give, I know the feeling of going out there and being unsure or not knowing what you're going to do.

So I think they have a sense of confidence that I'm going to give them something that they, because most of it is confidence going out. And also the reason it doesn't work sometimes is that when you're a comic or you're used to being funny in front of people, your instinct is to get the audience without even saying it.

Like there's, you know what I mean? All you're thinking about is if the thing's gonna land. But you know how to do it. So like, I think if you don't know how to do that, you're just kind of flying blind a little bit. Yeah. Right? And you've got the thing on paper and you don't know how to maybe put the twist on it.

Yeah. To make it funny. Exactly. But yeah, it worked. Yeah. To make it funny. Exactly. But it worked. I remember there was some funny stuff in this last one. And I just liked that it came back to a host driven thing as opposed to like who's the host.

Yes. It worked out better. Yeah, and the times, I think there have been a couple of times there's no host. I don't like that kind of show and I don't think the audience does, because it feels rudderless. Totally.

Yeah. You want someone, and when someone does it great, like Conan did, you know, who you look to as the host. It's his party, and he's running the ship, and people like that. Totally. So, now, did you, you've been on Hacks all four seasons? No, no, I was just on the last season.

Really? Yes. Huh, because I've been watching it. Mm-hmm. And I like it because I think it gets something right about stand-up that they don't usually get right. Mm-hmm, and especially with Gene Smart. That's what I mean, yeah.

Yeah, I've never seen an actor play a stand-up comic and do it convincingly, and she does. I mean, you totally buy, don't you? 100% that she's a comic. Well, yeah, but I buy the life more. Like, you know, I talked to Paul Downs about it. That's his name, right? Yes, and I listened to the audio.

Yeah, that they're, you know, having known, you know, like I talked to Paul Downs about it. That's his name, right? Yes, and I listened to the audio. Yeah, that they're, you know, having known, you know, people that from the 80s who were relatively big, get shots, end up in Vegas, like I know that is an arc. Yes. That is a trajectory of a type of comic that came up in that time. And they were very specific about that backstory. So that gave it all this kind of real,

like it was authentic. And whether or not when they shoot her doing standup, I completely buy it, it didn't matter. Cause there is some element of it that, it's almost impossible to capture what it is that a standup is able to do. But if you get all the trappings right, it works. Yes, that's so true.

And I think a big reason why they brought me on was having come up in the 80s. I know a lot about that world and what it was like. So I hope that I added to her authenticity as being a comic and also as someone, and then she's still around. Exactly. And like me.

Yeah. And but like, what was the pitch? Why this season? Like, was there a specific stuff that they wanted for you that they thought like, well, we need Carol to do this because we're gonna be doing this? No, it wasn't that specific as much as, they have a thing called the Blue Sky Room

that they do before each season where they get people together and just spitball ideas. And I think I had pitched a lot of ideas that seemed interesting to them. Also being of Deborah Vance's generation. Yeah. That I think that they found that they could find that helpful.

Right. So of last season, the episode that I wrote was, you know, it was called One Day. And the theme of it was... On the season we're in now? No, and season three was last season. Oh, One Day, which one was that? That was when they, she and Ava go hiking,

and they get lost. And I had been talking in the room about how, when you get to be Deborah's age, my age, and you think about things that you want to do, like I still think about, oh, I'd love to have a little part in a Broadway show. And I'd love to do this. And you think one day. Well, you know, one day is now.

Right. Yeah. If it doesn't happen soon, maybe it's never gonna happen. Right. So that also became something that, you know, she talked about in that episode. And I think that is something that only an older person, someone of our generation thinks about. Yeah. So not necessarily someone who's 30 years younger than me on the staff is going to think about it.

So I was happy to contribute. Oh, that's great. Well, I mean, that whole world, it's not like I don't know that world, the Vegas residency world, but I know it's a real thing and that you're afforded this lifestyle because you're overpaid and you're given a place to live and they'll give you all the money in the world

if you can bring people into the casino. Absolutely. And there's like so many acts, certainly people from your generation that have done those, and I know that like, who do I think about when I think, there's just people like every time I go to the Burbank airport and I see the signs, I'm like, oh my God, they're gonna be there for two months mm-hmm have you ever done those I haven't but you know I have played Vegas a lot throughout my I never

do it career no it's not my thing um but you know right for it well it depends on the act that you're opening for but But I certainly know, you know, from doing those gigs, the clock in the stage, and if they tell you to do 20 minutes, do 20 minutes, because if you go over a minute, that's a million dollars they're losing in the casino. So they're strict about that. And, you know, all these little things.

I mean, you know that I opened for Frank Sinatra in Las Vegas. So- You and Driesen. That's right. And Larry Miller, who I had called beforehand to get some advice about the gig. How's he doing?

I think he's doing okay. Okay. Yeah. He was so funny. The funniest, the funniest. But each of these gigs has their own roadmap that you have to kind of figure out. Yeah, I just don't... Yeah, you in Vegas doesn't really seem like it.

It doesn't, and I'm okay with that. You know what I mean? Like the idea of just thinking about doing it, because there's part of me that thinks like, well, I can do a casino, but it would not be good for me necessarily. Right, but like when I've done an opening for Seinfeld, that's a certain crowd.

Well, that's different. Yes. You know, because like, yeah, I mean, and I never really opened for anybody, but I remember seeing Alan King in Vegas when I was there in high school or something. Oh, how great. When I met my opened for anybody. But I remember seeing Alan King in Vegas when I was there in high school or something. Oh, how great. When I met my grandparents out there.

But it was weird because it was like a smaller showroom. It looked like it could have been a banquet hall on another day. Oh, so it wasn't one of the big showrooms. Not in my recollection. And he come out and he kind of, he kind of autopiloted through 45 minutes, no opener and left.

And I was like, wow, that's the job. It's kind of weird when you see certain, like comics, like where they just get to a point where they're just filling a time slot. Yeah. You know, they're not going out there to kill. And I mean, he was already an older guy, so I don't know. Yeah, and I think that's also the trap too

of doing your act for so long where you don't add any new material because it becomes like, you know, being in Oklahoma every night. You just kind of feel like doing your lines, scripted. So that's why I think it's always important to do new material because it keeps you vibrant

and into it. Yeah. So what happens now? What are you doing now? Just comedy? How's the family? Your kids must be older now. Yeah, my son is 18.

He's a senior in high school. How crazy is that? It's crazy. Yeah, my son is 18. He's a senior in high school. How crazy is that? It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. It happens. Yeah, the cliche is completely true. Yeah? It flies by.

Really? Yeah. You have two or just? Just the one. Oh, just him? The one son. Oh yeah. He's doing all right?

He's doing great. He's doing great. Yeah, he's a good kid. He's, you know, my wife, of course, got him into golf. Oh, really? Lesbian requirement. Is it? Yes.

Do you play? I gotta get back into it, but yeah. Is he good at it? He is good, yeah. I've got this whole set of clubs I've never taken out. Like I did a show for Apple that is a golf show. But I just played a caddy, an old caddy, so I didn't have to golf. But like it's Owen Wilson.

It's all about golf. And I don't know anything about golf. Oh, you're doing that. I was in it. Oh, you're in it. Yeah. Oh, I thought they were, I didn't know they had done it already. Yeah, yeah.

No, it's going gonna be on in June, but I play his old caddy, so it's not on me to golf. But like they sent me, you know, one of the companies, TaylorMade, sent me all this stuff, and I'm like, I don't know if I have the patience, man. Yeah, it does take a lot of patience. To suck forever? No, it's a lot like stand up.

You gotta really suck to get good. Yeah, but. Does not sound appealing. Yeah, I got over the stand up hurdle. Yeah, no thank you. No, but he's into it, he's good, but you know, he's a sports fan. He's into like the Bills and Josh Allen.

It's just very cool when you have a kid and they develop their own world. They become their own people. Yeah. And he loves soccer and he drives downtown and sees these games. Oh, wow. That's great. Yeah.

It's very cool. I'm hearing this sort of like, I don't know how he just became this person. He became his own person. How did that happen? Oh, and he't know how he just became this person. He became his own person. How did that happen? Oh, and he's funny. Oh, good. Yeah, which is, but I knew that kind of early on

that he was funny. And like, but having a teenager around, that means you're kind of privy to this other world and other language of whatever is happening on their phones and on their platforms and on everything. Like, I can't keep up with stuff and I don't have a kid. Yeah. But you have to deal with it all the time. Like, I mean, I have somebody doing my TikTok,

but I don't ever go on it. Yeah. And right, he's on it all the time. Yeah. And all his friends are on it all the time. Are you on it? No. No. No one's putting their clips up? are on the top. Do you, are you on it? No. No.

No one's putting their clips up? Uh-uh. But I should because to, you know, I'm focusing now on selling my book. So it's important. And also stand up. Yeah. Like I got a guy doing it, he's just like,

there's an entire history of me in stand up spots. And he just clips things. Oh, how great. And he says, what about this one? I'm like, all right. And then they just go up there. And I don't have a tremendous amount of followers, but I do know, to speak to like, you know, whether people know me or not, that there's definitely more people don't know me than

do. And when these clips come up, they're like, who's that guy? You know, it's still discoverable. Yeah, I'm so surprised. Well, maybe I should get his name. Yeah, the guy. Yeah, there's that guy? You know, it's still discoverable. Yeah, I'm so surprised. Well, maybe I should get his name. Yeah, the guy? Yeah, there's a few guys that do it. Put my stuff up there.

Why not? Yeah. Are you, do you, what, we're a show business now for you. Do you, is there still a world where you pitch shows and stuff? Oh, absolutely. Oh, really? Yeah.

So you're doing that? I am. In fact, I'm creating a comedy for Valerie Bertinelli. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Yeah. She's so funny. She is. I haven't seen her in a long time, but I interviewed her son, and he was great. Oh, right. I heard that one. Yes. It's great. Their relationship is great.

I know. I would interview Valerie in a minute. I don't know why I haven't. Oh, you should. Because she was like, I mean, haven't oh you should because she was like I mean when I was a kid it like she was like great. Yeah, what was it one day at a time? Yep, and she's fantastic, you know I totally had her in mind for this idea and then you never know when you meet the person Fingers crossed. Yeah, she's incredible. She's so sweet and they they're going to do it? Yeah. Yeah.

And what is it about? Can you tell me? It's an older romantic comedy. It's a romantic comedy about people in their 50s, which I've never seen before, and I thought would be interesting when you've kind of established yourself, your personality. Yeah. Been through some personality. Yeah. And- Been through some shit. Yeah.

Brought up a couple of kids. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And falling in love with someone at that age, and the challenges that go along. But still- That's funny. Wanting, finding, love.

Yeah. And I don't know if there is a show like that, is there? There isn't. So that gave me- It's kind of interesting. Yes, thank you. It gave me a leg up in pitching because now whatever you pitch is like, it has to be something nobody's ever seen before

because they're so ready, the suits. Is it a network? Oh, that's like this, that's like this. Yeah. It's with CBS Studios. See, that's what's interesting is that there are these shows that are basically boomer shows. And I think that generation still watches

network driven stuff. Yeah. Like the kids don't. They're just watching YouTube or clips or whatever, but there's still a whole generation of people that are like, I don't even know where to watch it. Yeah. You know, and like you have stuff like the Kaminsky method or any of the

Laurie shows like, like those are all for a generation of people that grew up watching television and they're still there. Exactly. But look, the Kaminsky method was on Netflix. So there's still- Well, Netflix is an exception. People know about Netflix. Yeah.

I guess people, maybe I'm not giving them enough credit. Yeah. They can figure out where to watch something, but it is know about Netflix. Yeah. I guess people, maybe I'm not giving them enough credit. Yeah. They can figure out where to watch something. But it is sort of challenging. Yeah, and she also has such a big fan base. You know, she is very open on social media. About who?

About Valerie. Okay, yeah. She's very out there. And people know her. And people know her and they love her. So what'd you write? You got a pilot or you got a whole season written? No, we just have the-

The pitch. Yeah, yeah. The pitch that we sold. But you know, she's great. A lot of celebs that you write for don't want to come to the pitch. They're like, oh, you do it and whenever we sell it, I'll show up. She came to every pitch, participates. You know, she's-

But it feels to me that she, you know, with the, you know, with the death of her ex-husband and bringing up the kid, like it feels like she had other priorities for a while. Mm-hmm. And now like she must be ready to go. She is. And, you know, I don't know if you saw or watched Hot in Cleveland, you know, and one day at a time, she's a pro. She knows how to get her laughs. And you know, that's another great thing. When you develop for someone who knows comedy,

it just makes it that much easier. Yeah, like TV pros. Yes. And there's not a ton of them of that generation anymore that know how to do like situation comedy. Yeah. It's a like situation comedy. Yeah. It's a very specific thing. Yeah, especially in front of a live audience.

Well, it's an interesting thing because, like you know on some level it's a conceit, right? That the situation comedy, half hour situation comedy, is a joke delivery system, right? That has to have this story. But the characters have to be so defined that they seem natural. And it's tricky to pull that off. It's a real balance.

Absolutely. But, you know, they're looking for, I wanted to write a multicam because coming up from Seinfeld and, you know, that era, I am a big lover of the format still, so they're looking for that. But it's great because I don't know if you've seen Mid-Century Modern. Oh, no, I hear it. People love it. Yeah.

It's so funny. And it's in front of a live audience. And I mean, Nathan know getting his laughs. It's the best yeah it's just the king of hams yeah. The whole ensemble is great so to work with someone like that is such a joy. That's great. Yeah. I don't know that I've watched one I want you know what I just watched that I was like I just don I just don't even know why I avoided it for so long, but someone somewhere Yeah with Bridget Everett. Oh my god. Great Joe. It's crazy good. Yeah. Yeah, and she's so good It's unreal that character. It's like it's so fucking funny. Yeah, and it's not it's not a

Three camera thing. It's like, you know, I don't know what you call that Single cam, but it is so full of like deep humor. And just so funny. So good. And I really want to see her live show because- I knew nothing about her. I hear she's just like a powerhouse. Yeah.

She's, I have so many friends that have gone to see her and blown away by her. It's like a cabaret show? Yeah. Oh my God. So, you know. Do you ever write for anybody for that stuff? Like for Bette Midler or anybody?

No, I haven't. Yeah. I haven't. Cause that was sort of a thing for a while. Yeah. That kind of performing and they're kind of funny. Yeah. You know, I know that Bette Midler

would use Bruce the Lanch a lot to write her stuff. Oh yeah, talk to him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So people always have their kind of favorite people. Now what's the next step for this, Valerie, Natalie? Are you going to hammer out a pilot and then see what happens and then hire writers? Are you going to work with people?

You know, I think what we're going to do, the next step is selling it to one of the, through the studio, selling it to one of the outlets. As a pitch. Get the money, the development money to write a script. Yes. Yeah, so we'll see where we land. Right. I hope somebody listening.

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, you know, to find the best outlet for this kind of multicam comedy. Yeah. But certainly there is a lot of interest. You're finding people want to do them again because they're cost effective. Yeah. And not only that, you know, it's multicams, but also I wouldn't go in to pitch something now without a piece of real talent,

because they want that too. Right. If you just go in to pitch something and here's the multicam idea and we'll get somebody to get it. Yeah, it's too hard. Okay. So to go in with a multicam and a proven talent, like a Valerie Bertinelli,

right. that made it very, very saleable. That's great. Congratulations. Thank you. It's great talking to you again. Love talking to you, Mark. All right, well I hope you do well with the book

and the comedy and everything. Thanks. There you go. That was nice. I like seeing Carol. She's great. Her book, How to Write a Funny Speech, is available now. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hang out.

You sailed beyond the horizon in search of an island scrubbed from every map. Imagine waking up to breathtaking landscapes, vibrant culture and a welcoming community. New Zealand is calling. If you are a passionate early childhood primary or secondary school teacher, New Zealand says come teach us. With up to $10,000 New Zealand dollars in relocation support, now's the time! Make your move! Find out more about moving to New Zealand to teach at workforce.education.govt.nz. Open to existing qualified primary, secondary and ECE teachers. Note that this grant is only dispersed after teachers arrive in New Zealand and meets the other accompanying criteria.

to New Zealand and meets the other accompanying criteria. Hey, this week for full Marin listeners, I went even further into the behind the scenes details of my HBO special taping. And heading into it, I had no stress about the material. I knew I was loaded up. I knew the shit worked. You know, like there was nothing that I was like, this might not land, you know.

But I found from you in the past, you've been stressed out at cutting it down. Like, that was definitely the case for the last two specials, at least. Yeah, but oddly, when it comes down to the wire, I fucking land on the fucking mark. Yeah, and you didn't fret about it at all. Like, I didn't hear you once say like, oh, I don't know how I'm gonna do this. I don't know how I'm gonna get this in at 70 minutes. And you said that a lot, like during,

especially the last one from Bleak to Dark, I remember you saying that a lot, that you were concerned you just had too much and you weren't gonna get it down. Right, but you know, oddly, maybe it's from radio experience, maybe it's just from me, because know, because I choose, you know, to do a full hour that's loaded up, you know, it's, you know,

there's, the last three have been, you know, very full, you know, almost too full. Like, you know, I could cut 20 minutes off of this thing and do an hour. I knew from the last week or so of shows, like the ones I did in Toronto and then the three at the club in Vermont, which is a smaller room, like I definitely was like, just do the shit.

Just do what you're gonna do with the special. Don't, you know, don't go off so you can say to yourself afterwards, well, I don't know, because I decided to riff or whatever. I was like, just do it. Even if the response is stilted because you're locked in, just fucking do the work and take the hit so you know going in that you're within the timeframe.

So I wasn't worried about that. You can hear that bonus episode along with other bonus episodes we post twice a week as part of the full Marin. To sign up go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus and a reminder before we go this podcast is hosted by a cast and I slow down a classic kind of I've rethunk a classic for me it's a classic I took the edge off it. So So So So So So So So Boomer lives, Monkey and La Fonda, Cat Angels everywhere.