WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1648 - John Mulaney

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

John Mulaney has been through a lot since the last time he was on the show, so it’s nice he can identify the present as, in his words, a happy time that he can appreciate. John offers Marc his reflections on the first run of his Netflix talk show Everybody’s Live, reflections on his sobriety five years after everything fell apart, and reflections on the history of WTF, a show he was listening to right from the beginning. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maronron this is my podcast WTF welcome to it welcome to all you people that have been here for a long time some of you new people that

have a lot of catching up to do look you guys I don't know if you you know this or why would you maybe some of you would but WTF this podcast Will turn 16 16 years old on September 1st that's a couple months away 16 years it's a long time a long time and it's a long time to do anything and it's certainly I've said recently that I know when I'm living it, I don't feel like time is passing by quickly.

But yeah, all of a sudden, you know, you're old and you realize you've been doing something a long time. And this started, you know, the old garage, the, you know, just no one knew what a podcast was. I was coming out of a horrendous divorce. I was wanting to figure out how to continue living my life. Things were not looking good for me. Brendan McDonald, my producer who I'd worked with for years

on other things, radio and streaming related. And when Brandon and I started this thing, all we knew is we were gonna do it every Monday and Thursday and there was no way to make money, there was no way that we knew how to build an audience or anything and it was crazy. We were doing it in a garage at the beginning that was just a garage. It was filled

with junk and it slowly evolved into the show that became what you listen to twice a week. 16 years we've been doing this and we've decided that we had a great run. And now basically it's time, folks. It's time. WTF is coming to an end. And it's our decision. We'll have our final episode sometime in the fall. It was not some kind of difficult decision necessarily.

Neither me nor Brendan, who are the only people in charge of this operation, on every level, I record it here in my garage studio. Brendan produces it in his chair in Brooklyn and it's always been a two man operation and we always said well how do we know when we're done and and I always said well whenever Brendan says so and and he always said well it you know if Mark you know is finished and we're finished. And thankfully, we both realized together that we were done and there was no convincing or pushback or arguing.

We were done, you know, and it's okay. It's okay for things to end. 16 years and we have been through a lot. And I'm talking about me and you, the audience, me and Brendan, me and my life, me and my cats, me with my guests, me with my equipment, me with moving and things change. But you've been through the entire arc of my life

and everything that's happened in it for the last 16 years. And a lot of it was not easy. A lot of it was amazing. A lot of monumental things really happened on this show. And this was a show that was started when there were no podcasts. And now there are nothing but podcasts.

It's been an incredible time in my life and Brendan's life. We've done things that we never thought we would be able to do. Because of the podcast, my life changed dramatically. All the things that I set out to do before I did the podcast as sort of a Hail Mary pass, to be a stand-up with an audience, to try my hand at acting,

to have experiences with other people that were one of a kind and completely exciting and unique, and engaging, and revealing. To talk to a president in my garage. completely exciting and unique and engaging and revealing to talk to a president in my garage. So many things happened because of just this setting up a mic in my garage with Brendan, you know, on the knobs producing it, discussing with him how we do it all.

It was a real creative partnership. And you, the audience, have been here through all of it. And I shared everything I could with you because that's the way I do it and with my guests. And there've been so many amazing guests. And it really comes down to the fact that we have put up a new show every Monday and Thursday for almost 16 years and we're tired, we're burnt out.

And we are utterly satisfied with the work we've done. We've done great work. And this doesn't mean I'm never going to do something like this again, doesn't mean I'll never, have talks like I do here or some kind of podcast at some point in time. But for now, we're just wrapping things up. It's okay.

It's okay to end things. It's okay to try to start some other chapter in your life. And I'm talking to myself. This podcast has been my connection to you people. It's been my connection socially to people in my business, people I never thought I'd meet before, creative people, interesting people. It's a very big part of my spiritual,

social and psychological life. But I'll be honest with you, it's nice to be able to end things on our terms. And we've always had that power to do that, and that's what we're going to do. We started the show on our terms, we grew it on our terms, and we'll end it on our terms.

Look, we've had great partners who have helped us do the show over the years. A-Cast has been our partner for the past three years, and we've been able to do things on our terms with them. We always had that, and it's always been the way we've done it, and that's been great. And we've been very fortunate to be able to do things the way we want to do them. And now this is part of it, is ending it the way we want it to end. And look, the thing about

burnout, about being tired, and about the way me and Brendan are, is that we are very focused and very particular and very hardworking in this endeavor and the quality of the work we've done. Every fucking episode is its own greatness because we're crazy dedicated guys who really want this to be the best show that it can be. I bring what I bring to the table, Brendan brings what he brings to the table. And, you know, God forbid we just keep plowing along

and something diminishes. And we wouldn't want to just keep plugging along because we can at the risk of our burnout or our sort of like, you know, passion, you know, starts to drift or it starts to get sloppy. We're just not those kinds of people. And look, I mean, look, I've got a lot of stuff going on.

I've got a lot of projects going on and we're still gonna be doing this for the next several months and we'll try to have as many people on as possible, many people that maybe wanna do it, never did do it, or people that maybe will do it now, that this is the sort of like home stretch. But I do want to sincerely thank all you people

for being along on this journey with me and with Brendan and with all the guests, because we really did something here. And I wanna thank you all for that. This isn't a sign off, but that's the big news. And I'm sure we'll talk about it more in the weeks to come. I'm sure that you guys will wanna chime in, but just for now, thank you for being here as always.

And it's gonna be, there's probably gonna be some ups and downs over the next few months with me emotionally around the reality of this. But it's done with, you know, this is a fullhearted decision. It's the right decision for me. It's the right decision for me. It's the right decision for Brendan. It's okay.

It's okay for things to end. It's just time, folks. But again, we'll have a few more months. So don't get all bummed out. Let's just enjoy it. The world is on fire. I have people I want to talk to. We'll find a little joy.

We'll find a little connection. We'll find a little solace in each other's company. We'll learn some things. We'll get some laughs. We'll cry a little bit. And you know, we'll move on. That being said, the first guy to hear about it was my guest on the show today, who's a good guest

for this particular episode, John Mulaney is here. And he's been listening to this show since the very beginning. He was also on episode 551 and episode 743. He's been through a lot since then, I would say. He's currently hosting the Netflix talk show, Everybody's Live with John Mulaney, which had its season finale last week. So yeah, I get to break the news to John. Also, I wanted to mention this, the documentary Are We

Good?, the screening at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City next month. That's the documentary about me. There are two screenings, Saturday June 14th at 5 p.m. that's at the OKX theater on Chamber Street, then Sunday June 15th at 5 30 p.m. It's screening at the Village East on 2nd Avenue and 12th Street. go to WTF pod.com slash tour to get tickets for that and oddly in the current cut of the documentary it is not brought up that that we are retiring the show but I'm excited I'm excited there are things going on I mean I just went to the premiere of stick that's the show I'm in with Owen Wilson. I will tell you about that.

Will I? Yes, I will. First though, I was just talking last week about the great heroes of art and culture I've encountered in my life. All the things that celebrate freedom of expression and diversity, of creativity, the stuff that expanded my worldview

and helped me see life through other people's eyes. Yeah, like, R. Crumb comics, underground art, weird music like The Residence. So much stuff. I can't imagine where I'd be without all the things that took me to that edge of human expression. And it's a damn shame to see people trying to steamroll and bury the arts. You don't need me to tell you that the arts are experiencing funding cuts that are unprecedented. So it's more important than ever to have places like BAM that are keeping the arts are experiencing funding cuts that are unprecedented. So it's more important than ever to have places like BAM that are keeping the arts thriving and vibrant, just like they've been doing for more than 160 years. I just filmed my comedy special at BAM, so you probably heard me talk about

how great the venue was, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. BAM is a world-renowned hub of theater, music, opera, visual arts, films, literature, and of course, its cutting edge dance programs. This is North America's oldest performing arts center, and when you give to BAM, you invest in the future of a unique artistic community. You help make their iconic spaces accessible to all. You help create a welcoming home for diverse programming, and you ensure that there is always a place for diverse programming and you ensure that there is always a place

for artistic risk and innovation. Give to BAM today. Go to bam.org slash support because this is where we're at. You know it's going to be on us. It's going to be on people that have the the means to donate to places that still represent what a democratic, creative world looks like. It's scary. I think about it every day now. I really think about it every day. Like all the things that were important to me coming up, all the things that built my brain, all the weirdness, and there's no end to it.

To the type of music I was turned on to, the type of writing I was turned on to, some of it's fringe stuff, some of it just, people that really lived on the creative edge, that had personal weird tragedies and lives that were able to document it and talk about it and make it into art. So please, if you can, if you have the means to donate to these places, please do it. Please do it.

Bam.org slash support. As I said, working in that space was amazing to me. So look, in terms of the future, I seem to have a lot of things going on. I did go to the premiere of this new show, this new Apple show that I'm on with Owen Wilson, which premieres June 4th. I think they're gonna drop three episodes and add a nice little red carpet event at the AMC in Century City with all the cast there and the producers and the writers and everybody on the crew.

It was kind of great. Got dressed up in the one suit I have. I have actually two suits. But the thing is, I had never seen it. I didn't watch any of the cuts. I was trying to do what Owen does. You know, Owen doesn't watch anything he's been in, ever. He's never seen anything he's been in.

I talked to him about that. I understand that, but, you know, like I did this independent movie that I wanted to see the rough cut of, in case I had any suggestions. I was a producer on it, and he was also a producer, but I guess of stick. But he explained it to me.

He said, look, you know, that's fight scene that you and I had. I remember it as, like, the greatest fight scene ever, because it was not a real, like, stunt-driven fight scene. It was an emotional explosion between two old friends he says i just remember that as great why not just hold on to that and i respect that so he actually went out during the screening itself he went out with his brother luke to get something to eat and uh you know i it and I got to say it's gonna be a touching

series. I feel like I did pretty well in it. I feel like I did the character, I represented myself, I was doing some new things for me in terms of acting and how I was approaching it. But I got to be honest with you, this series is a heartfelt, heart-wrenching experience and the comedy balances out the emotions pretty well. I think people are gonna enjoy it. I think you're gonna enjoy it. And it doesn't matter if you don't know anything about golf

because I didn't and I'm in it. And sometimes when they're interviewing me on the junket, all these outlets are interviewing me about my relationship with golf, I almost feel like I should lie. But I don't. I did learn enough, I think, to portray the guy that I portrayed. I didn't need to step up and look like a real golfer, but I think I could look like a real caddy if necessary. But mostly in this show, I was an emotional caddy. I think for a lot of the characters.

But all that said, I do recommend you watch it because I think it is a very human and a very moving series in a rare turn. All the characters kind of transform. All the characters change. And that's really what you want from an arc of a story about any character is that they do change. And this is a kind of found family.

Is that what you call it? A kind of makeshift family of underdogs who are kind of moving towards self-realization and trying to let go of some things. who are kind of moving towards self-realization and trying to let go of some things. And it's kind of a beautiful thing. Feeding yourself is hard enough sometimes, but what about when you have a whole family

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and you must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. Free dessert. 16 years, you guys. Wow. It's gonna be fun though. I do think we're gonna have, I think we're gonna have a little, as much as I'm capable of this will be a bit of a party.

Is that possible? Is that overselling it? Is that? Yeah. It's gonna be good. And John Mulaney, I did his show. I did that. Everybody's live with John Mulaney.

Had a nice time. And it's always nice to talk to him. I haven't talked to him. I think everybody else has about what he went through with getting sober. I imagine we're going to get into that a bit. Everybody's alive with John Mulaney. Just rapped last week.

I couldn't make the wrap party because I was doing a press junket for Stick. I don't know if it's clear whether he's gonna do more, but they're all there if you wanna watch him and they're pretty fucking unique and odd. This is me talking to John Mulaney and breaking the news. This is an ad by BetterHelp. And BetterHelp is trying to do something that I've been trying to do on this show for a long time.

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Jacques Derrida. Yeah. I mean. I felt like I took a crack at Derrida and Foucault and those writers in college. Yeah. And all I can do is say their names. And I'm like, you know, we're pretty smart people. No, I know we tried.

We tried. So what were they doing is the real question. Well, I think you have to be sort of, it's part of a evolving language of philosophy. So if you're not gonna read the Heidegger and you're not gonna read the Kant, it's hard to make the jump right into the Derridaas and the Foucaults.

Yes, they have deceptive introductions, I feel like. I often lulled into things. Like, I'm gonna be able to handle this one. It's literally a different language. Yes, it is. And I think the most accessible one was that Baudrillard. I think you can... Don't note it at all?

You can read that guy. Okay. He's of the same ilk, but he was a little more poetic and he dealt with things that you can kind of see in life as opposed to think. Yeah, what was his first name? Jean Baudrillard. You know, they actually made one of his coffee table book.

Yeah, I was kind of obsessed with knowing that stuff, but not unlike you, I possess the books. And that's the end of it. I possess the books, I possess the desire, and I carry myself as if I've read them. I think that's your great trick, John. Yeah, thank you very much. I would like to give off that I have read those

and thought about those. I think the more I see of your show, the more I realize we're similar. It's like it only takes one album to make people believe that you know all of it. 100%. So we have to open in a very specific way and you're the first person,

I think I've said this out loud too, but this episode, I will have said in the intro before I talk to you that we are ending the podcast. Whoa. I know. Mark. I know, I know. I'm shocked.

It's, we've got some time, it's in the fall. Okay. But my producer and partner in this endeavor, Brendan, and I have agreed on the decision to put it to rest. Congratulations. Thanks, buddy. That's awesome. It's 16 years, man.

It's 16 years. And look at the, I feel like I've, you know, partially done an amazing thing for culture, but on the other side of that, I feel like I've released the Kraken. Oh, that's interesting. Well. It was bound to happen.

I think it was bound. I think, yeah, I think the Kraken just, you know. Is gonna come out no matter what. Yeah, was out, gonna come out no matter what, and you sort of, it's no longer AM radio. Well, it's always twofold when you're at the beginning of a new medium. You know, there's a lot of like,

wow, this is the freedom of it. And you know, I think those words are said before anything turns into a horrendous malevolent force. The freedom of it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so you- Yeah, the freedom of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so you- Yeah, before you build a commune in Idaho, you remark upon-

Isn't this amazing? The wide open land. Oh yeah. We could start a neo-Nazi commune here. Or even any kind. We are free to think and feel the way we feel. Yeah, finally. And now that's over and you have to drink.

Everyone must drink this at the same time. Ha ha ha ha ha. Our ambitions have exceeded our space in San Francisco. Guiana looks nice. It's beautiful down there. Yeah. Plus no meddling relatives. So finally, that's like what we thought of. Out of the reach of Congress.

Out of the reach of notes and network. Yeah. Oh, that's exactly right. But yeah, so you're the first to kind of know. You're the first guest host. Congratulations, Dan. Well, that's a nice way to frame it. I appreciate that.

I think we've done an amazing thing. I don't think we live in a time where people of my generation and slightly older know how to move on from anything or stop. Do you feel like you're kind of making yourself stop for the exercise of it? No, I feel like we've done our bit, we've done all right, you know, it worked out okay for us in terms of, we've always done a great show,

we've always, the quality and the audience has remained steady and high. And I just think there's no shame in saying like, all right, well, we did it. And we did a great bunch of work. And I don't really know what this means for me. I do have a few months, but I do have to try to wrap my brain around what it means

in terms of like, this is most of my social life. Like you wouldn't be here If it isn't if you didn't I'm sure sure I mean, maybe I say hey John, you know I got some I need you to talk about it's vague and I just Could you come over? Let's just look at each other and talk for yeah. Yeah, we could do that I mean and I like doing that but it is a big part of my life and has been for a long time And I don't really know what it feels like to not have it. I know because you have been so consistent.

It's the longest stretch you ever took off. Well, we don't take any off because we do two new shows every week and we have for 16 years. So no matter, even if, you know, Brendan takes a vacation, I don't vacation much, but I'm on the road. I'm recording the things. There was a period there

where I was interviewing people out there and, but I'm on the road. I'm recording the things. There was a period there where I was interviewing people out there and doing the intro. So this job and this passion of these conversations was a big part of my life. And I don't know what you're like with a resting mind. Has it ever happened, to be honest? Had a resting mind? Yes.

I have had, yes, I had full, I had, I think I had a pretty full period of, you can't talk your way out of this, you have to sit in this. But you know, looking back, That's different. It might've been a few months only. Yeah, but it's a little-

Oh, resting mind, like a peaceful resting mind? Well, just sort of like, okay, I've decided to, like, you know, in relation to like, yeah, the post bottom hitting, now we've got to rebuild, own up and try not to do any more damage. Yeah, I don't know why I answered like that because clearly, yeah, you're talking about a more... We've done this amazing amount of work.

Culture has changed. We've gotten older. We've done all we can. We're satisfied. We're okay. But it's been a primary part of my life, you know, for this amount of time, and now that's going to be gone. 100%. And I know, even if I just do stand-up, you know, like working towards this special I just shot, that's two years, a year and a half of pounding that shit out. Yeah. And now like, you know, I did it and there's that moment where I'm like, well, you know

what, I'm going to just take a break in three days, I'm fucking at the store. Of course. So but this is going to be different because after we stop this, I'm like, I don't have a producer. I don't have the bookers. I guess I could still sit here on the mics, but I'm not gonna do that without my creative partner. And I don't know that I need to, but it's gonna be interesting, because I guess the point was,

if I sit with myself for very long, it's not good upstairs. I mean, I start, what does your brain do? I'm trying to think the longest amount of time I've... Does it go to somewhere in the zone of like I'm a piece of shit? I forget what I do and I go like do I, what is my job? I go to the gym sometimes. Yeah, yeah. I make coffee. I'm yeah I make coffee and like... Now you got the kids so there's always that. There's that too, but in front of them,

when I've had a month or two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why is daddy sitting on the couch so long? Yeah, why does he have so much time for us? Why? Yeah. Oh, he really thought about building this city out of blocks.

This is troubling. It's much better than the one you did. I was actually more dialed into building a city out of phone blocks the other day than my son. And he moved on and I was like, well, why don't we, why don't we make a walkway? Cause I can't get this building higher, but we can make a walkway to a different building.

He was like, nah, yeah, let's go to Discovery Cube. How old's that kid now? He's three. Getting back to you for a second, did you have, well, did you have, was there an interview or an episode or a jag of interviews where you started to go, oh, I'm gonna hang this up.

And if so, who were they? Yeah, no, not really. Everything is, like, I don't know from one interview to the next what's really gonna happen. So there's always that element of surprise. And I do get anxious and somewhat dreading everyone because I really don't know what's gonna happen.

So there's been moments where it's been a job, but it wasn't interview specific. It was just sort of like, we're kind of short on interviews, we're gonna have to do five this week. Right, right, right. Yeah. And then, you know, and there have been ones that have been disappointing in that. I couldn't get through or whatever, but, but not,

it was never, there was a sort of point where, like how many actors do we have to do? A hundred percent. But it was fortunate that that kind of coincided with me becoming an actor. So there was that interest at least, but to the average person, you know, are they going to talk about craft again? That's very funny. It's like the guy who's just listening in his car, it's like, I'm going to listen to

Paul Dano talk about animal work. A penguin, huh? Now they're just doing Alexander Technique on here. Exactly. Exactly. There's been, there's been jags like that, where it's like. Yeah, for sure. But fortunately, because Brendan, my producer,

you know, like sometimes he comes up with ideas and I learn things, you know, there was a period of professional wrestling, which was not totally my thing, but it was his thing. But I can engage with that. Generally I can engage. But we've also talked to almost everybody. Yeah, probably.

No show has had the quantity and quality you've had. Crazy. Like I've dipped in and out over the years, like not out that often You were an early adapter. I was an early adapter I was on the show for that first time live at comics I think back before it before you even before we did the one-on-one. Yeah, maybe yeah There's definitely a live one different episodes had different formats. Well, that was only try to make money

Yeah, 100%. The live ones were, you know, we had created a pay site so people would buy them because we were stuffing envelopes and doing tiered donations. I had a house full of envelopes with T-shirts and stickers for the high tier donors. It's been you and Brendan since 2009?

Always. Oh, wow. He was always, it's just me and him, period. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just mean he and you started it. I've been with Brendan since 2004. Wow. I met him when he was 24 years old at Air America. He was an associate producer, just coming out at WNYC.

He was on Morning Sedition? Yeah, oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, I've known him since he was a kid. That's amazing. And for the first like five years of doing this, he couldn't say he was the producer because he was working somewhere else

with what, a no-compete or something, a non-disclosure or whatever. five years of doing this, he couldn't say he was the producer because he was working somewhere else with, and on what, a no-compete or something, a non-disclosure or whatever. But he couldn't own it, he used to drive me nuts. That's so funny. Because he was just like, he was the mastermind, you know, he was the wizard. And I'm like, no, no, no, I got this guy.

Yeah, I got this guy helping me out. Yeah. This is the worst. That's so funny. Yeah. Are you going to miss the, or I'll volunteer this. I would certainly miss the, hey, good show this week from a passerby or a friend or an-

Yeah, I don't know. I have a lot of people that have been sort of, because outside of the interviews, the narrative of me, you know, has been, has really made me very close to some people on their side. And I appreciate that. And I don't know, that's the big question. Will, whatever small amount of relevance

I have in this culture, and we all sort of worry about relevance on some level, when that goes away, part of it is delusional in my head anyways. But I always think like, you know, I'm not quite relevant enough or, you know, am I relevant? But with this out of the picture, I'm sort of like, I could close my social media accounts and be okay.

Interesting. I don't know, dude. Why did that give us both a start? I don't know. To close our social media. Can you imagine? We stared at each other like, whoa, now Mark's slow down. I know, I know. But really, I think it would be helpful and healthy.

I'm gonna be 62. Yeah. There was a time in this country where people were like, I'm winding it up. Yeah, but not show people. I guess not. They just keep going. And sometimes you look at them and you're like, why?

Why? Because why not? Because like to me- It's still fun. To do it. Yeah. But sometimes you may not know when you go out there, people are like, well, geez, he's a-

That's where a little bit of our, when we're in that groove of inflated self-esteem versus crushing low self-esteem, That's why it's helpful. I don't know, man, I just saw some- You hear that pop when I walked up there? Which one? No, you tell yourself that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

When you're 75. Sure, sure. They were pretty surprised I was there, yeah. As you're looking out at an audience of 75 year olds. And still asking them at the cellar to act like you're a special guest. Hey, anything can happen here. Even this old ass man can walk up here.

Well, they can, dude. And they do. I just saw footage of Angus Young. And for the first time in my life, I'm like, oh, he's this fucking little old man. And it's like hard. And I did a whole bit about the stones on that level. And it's just, there's something about your heroes

pounding on that level. And it's just, you know, there's something about your heroes pounding on that makes, you want them to be immortal, God damn it. You do, but I guess I'm one that always wants people to either reunite or go back out on tour. Seriously? Oh yeah, I always want people to come out of retirement and do something. Really?

And then I think as a fan, it's never enough. Like I'm always, yeah, I always wonder. What are you expecting? Keep going, keep going. What am I expecting? I guess it's something to do with my own sense of mortality that I get kind of squirrely when they get old. OK.

Do you know what I mean? Where I'm like, oh, it's like that bit I did about when, you know, the day that Mick falls down, when he's in the middle of it, and then you have a room full of Baby Boomers going like, that's over. Yeah, yeah. He's down. He's down, yeah. Everyone fanning him with menus.

Yeah. You okay, buddy? You okay? Yeah. But the frailty of it all, look, I don't know, man. How's your standup? Well, it was sort of

slightly neglected when I was busy with some other things. And then I've been doing a ton of spots because I've been doing longer monologues on this Netflix channel. And that, like, I appreciate that. So I started kind of working at it like they're... I appreciate the effort of that. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Because... It's been fun to do. You know, there was a period there where I thought, you know, I had a pilot for a talk show many years ago at Comedy Central. Back before, back when it was still half run by HBO. I did a pilot for Comedy Central and probably 2000 and... Fuck, I don't know. Whenever, well, it was before The Daily Show started.

They went with The Daily Show. And I did something called the Mark Maron Project. This was after? Short Attention. Short Attention. Right, and Chappelle was my guest and Steven Weber. There was a big, yeah. But Chappelle was still like a kid almost. And I was going to the Museum of Broadcasting

and watching Jack Parr shows because I wanted to figure out how to do the long monologue. And if you could hold it, like if you could keep it compelling, enough for people to wanna go for the whole arc. Yeah. Was that your feeling? A little bit.

Yeah. Could you hold them and could you relax out of having a monologue cadence and would they follow it? Right. And that's not groundbreaking. Other people have done that. But it was, I just wanted to see, you know, Richard Kind announces me, just had the titles, Energy, Energy, Energy, And you wanna go, welcome to my show. Yes, this is the only show on Netflix where punchline, punchline. And then kind of.

Tell a story. Yeah, tell a story, get out of that. And yeah, again, and tell it to the camera too. As well as the folks in the room. And just feel like, yeah, we all have a bit of patience right now. As we go somewhere. As we enter this this we don't know where it's gonna go No, not totally and I don't know if it's related to that night's themes

We know it's not related to the news how is now in the conception of this thing how many of you done now? As of today, we've done 11. We're doing the 12th on Wednesday, and that's it. That's it. Have they said we're doing more yet We yes, there was a plan to do more and we're figuring it out. Yeah? Yeah. Are you gonna? I never know what to say to that.

Well, I mean, well, here's the question. I'm just thinking about, here's the- You're thinking about Wednesday. Yeah, I'm thinking about Wednesday, yeah. Well, I mean, here's the question though. It's been very enjoyable and it's been, it's been very enjoyable and I, I have really felt the 12 weeks in a row.

It's a lot. Imagine if you're doing it every day. Yes, though, we would scale back what we were doing if we were doing it every day. Right, but I guess my question is like- 60 minutes of all, it's all us. No commercials, no- That's true, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So- But I guess my thought is, like at some point in the career of a comic, you realize the jobs that are available to you. Like you do stand up and that usually means, well, if you're not gonna be a writer, you're available to host things. Yes.

That's a job a standup does. Yes. You can have a show centered around you. Yes. All right, now you've done all of this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you've done all of the things available. All two of them.

All available. Yeah. Three. Three. Writing. Writing. Oh, some acting, I guess. Hosting, being center of a show. Yeah, that would be the acting. Three. Writing? Writing. Oh, some acting, I guess. Hosting, being center of a show. Yeah, that would be the acting.

Yeah. And then just your standup. So there's really four things. Wow, hey. You, well, I think Brian Regan, for a lot of us, Yeah. had a different path of like, you can be an industry out on the road.

And then you, Mark Maron, Can be an industry in my house. Created a fifth one, yeah. The fifth estate. Yeah, I, No, you can be an industry out on the road. And then you, Mark Maron. Can be an industry in my house. Created a fifth one, yeah. The fifth estate. Yeah, I- No, you really did. Yeah, I've created an entire culture, culture of entertainment fueled by aspiring afternoon drive time radio personalities.

It is amazing. It's just like every you flip on your phone and depending who you're following, you'll see three or four white guys sitting behind mics talking about the first time they shit their pants as an adult Well, I'm glad you never got a couch a lot of these shows Started having a couch with Mike. Well, we're just audio still a desk, but we're just audio. Oh, that's right. There's no fucking you know This that's so relaxing. Yeah, and there's no we didn't do it was not what we do. We're audio guys. Yeah. Yeah, so How do you feel?

You did with this format. Oh I love doing this for me I mean it felt like making 12 specials using the talk show as a format Yeah, I once did this children's musical special and it felt like I'm taking something like that. You and me. It was really fun Yeah, I once did this children's musical special and it felt like I'm taking something like that You and me it was really fun. Yeah I'm doing a comedy special of my Stuff yeah channeled through like, you know free to be you and me with Marlo Thomas. Yeah, and this felt like Some kind of evergreen weird not quite any era talk show

that also is trying to be you know that's also a variety show in some ways that's also trying to be like Jules Holland or David Sandborn Jules Holland night music you know and trying to feel very loose and then trying to feel very loose and then trying to feel very produced. And we just got to like, try every speed too. It was more than just that we got to try a lot of bits and jokes and have guests on.

More we just got to try whole episodes where it felt very shoestring and episodes where we were blowing it out production wise. Right. Now, hypothetically, you say, all right, I'll do 12 more, but these are, like, this is what I've learned. This is how we're going to move forward. Yeah. You know what's great about that? What? I don't have to know. No learning. The first six we did last May during the Netflix Festival.

We, it was a joke, but it also just became true. There's no time to learn. We were just doing the show that was in front of us. And there was, in a way that I really am proud of, there was like little things we learned worked, we didn't do again. Uh-huh. That's always good. In large part.

Yeah. Why do what works? Exactly. Yeah. But because other people are offering that if you want to see that. And that's great. Go, oh, this type of bit worked. We'll just do tonight.

Next week's episode will look like all the most refined parts of the first five weeks of episodes. Well, there was a lot of talk about how, you know, or a couple people I said, well, they're fine in their, you know, their legs. They're fine in their legs, yeah. It's sort of like what Conan did for four years. They seem to be finding a rhythm and yeah. Yeah, yeah, and I kept watching and I'm like,

they're not though. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you very much. I really do. Cause two reasons. One, we weren't appreciate that. Thank you very much I really do because two reasons one we weren't two Anytime you say they're figuring it out a bad not a bad side a side of me comes out You know like they've found their groove fuck you know we haven't yeah

I'll do it blindfolded and also when they say things like they're figuring out. It's just a diplomatic way of saying it's not good Oh, I think they just say it's not good when they don't like. Yeah, I think we're no longer living in the decent era of, well, they're figuring it out. I think people want the best for you, John. Oh, that's nice. They want you to, you know, you got fans and they're like, yeah, he'll get, he'll figure it out.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that kind of thing. Yeah. I thought you meant, well, sometimes critics like to say to say they found a groove and it's almost them saying because they took our notes. Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What has been? And that's the most exciting thing to them.

Yeah, what? It's habitat. Yeah, didn't listen to you at all. Didn't even read it. Yeah, no, no, read it, thought about it, rejected it. I hate when there's- Advice read, advice rejected. Well, I don't like when critics are correct. It bothers me, because it feels like I have a blind spot.

Oh, but do you find when they're correct that it's something you already had thought of? Well, no, I think sometimes if I trust the critic and they assess my work, even if it's a good review, there's usually that one paragraph. There has to be. Just to keep their edge where they take a shot. And they need to show their face at whatever, wherever critics hang out, they need to keep

it held high. Right, right. That's right. There's the three critics that really exist. But I often think about the one thing that they're sort of critical of in a real way. And I kind of mull it over. And sometimes I've learned things from critics that I think in retrospect were probably correct. I don't think I listened to them at the time,

but eventually it turned out to be kind of right. Yeah. Yeah. What has the critical response been? We've had some really, really dead on excellent pieces written about the show that I think have captured that there's something intensely personal about it, even though I'm working with eight amazing writer-producers who are the voice of lots of pieces. That a couple of people, my favorite thing, my favorite pieces were zeroing in on,

well, two favorite types, zeroing in on, they're just kind of, this show is just kind of going where it wants. Yeah. And they, you know, in a mature way go for better or worse. Right. They're just going, he wants to talk to John Cale and Maggie Rogers, he's going to. Yeah, yeah.

You were there that night. Yeah, give that a try. Give that a try. I got my own show. I'm gonna, there's no way I'm not gonna talk to John Cale. Yeah. It's funny though, because like, you know, for the most part it seems, you forego segment producers when it comes down to guests.

Like, you know, I'm pretty reliable. You know what I mean? You didn't have to, but I know how to work with a segment producer. For sure. But I think that on another show, if someone was gonna talk to John Cale, they would be like, well, let me just see what he's got.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no. You didn't do this? No. No pre-interview. Yeah. No social media ask. Right.

We try to make it a very light lift for guests. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also, it's a talk show designed by someone that's been on a lot of them. So we did without some of the things I find inconvenient, such as preparation. But do you think that works out when you don't have a pre-interview? For me, it really does. And I'm not trying to be naive that a meandering conversation. Oh, so it keeps you engaged. It keeps me engaged.

It's also, I just had to look at it like, there are five guys out there who do that so well. They do it really well. Throw the stories, basically basically and then make jokes. Are just excellent at knowing I'm going to get this guest to do this, not just tell the story or do this bit or go over this piece of, you know, go through this news item about them, but we're going to do it in three and a half minutes or four and a half minutes. It's a real art. Yeah. But there's a lot of people doing that. Yeah. And I wanted to, one of my favorite moments

in the whole series was Tina Fey was on and spur of the moment I went, do you collect anything? And she went, now. And I went, neither do I. And then there was like a one, 1000. And then we moved on to the next topic. And there's something about, you know, there's something about what Larry King used to feel like.

Sure. Where he'd be talking to a caller, he'd have on Andy Rooney. Yeah. And Andy would go, what are you talking about? He would go, no, am I wrong? And he'd go, yeah, you're wrong. And then they'd move on. Yeah, did you ever do an interview with Larry King?

I did his, what was the internet show? Yeah, I did that too, yeah. Yeah, it was fun to meet him. Yeah, it was fun to meet him. And then I also interviewed him at his house, which was not a great day, because I walked in and he goes, you're late! Oh, interesting.

And I was, because I had the wrong time, and it was a tough opening 10. I know, I've had those in my life. I've had a healthy amount of that. Sorry I'm late to traffic. Yeah, well, that's why? Sorry I'm late to traffic. Yeah? Well, yeah, well, that's why we leave early. Okay.

Shit. I'm a grown up. Come on. Yeah. Traffic is no excuse in Los Angeles. Yeah, exactly. That's why you map it. If you got to go down to Culver City, you better leave the night before. It was always, it's always been more fun to be as surprised

by a guest as I am by a caller. But Larry pressed. You're not a presser. Larry pressed with a lot of incorrect information. Of course. Yeah. No, you don't think? Yeah.

He had on Andy Rooney once and he goes, there was just another high profile kidnapping, let's say Elizabeth Smart. He goes, Andy, why are there so many kidnappings? And Andy goes, what are you talking about? He goes, there's more kidnappings now than there used to be. He goes, no, there's not, there were always kidnappings. He goes, aren't there more?

And he goes, no. And then without missing a beat, he changes topics. He goes, should the Pope resign? Yeah. Yeah. That was it. Just one question after another. It was not-

Aren't there more kidnappings? No, there's always been kidnappings. And that's cause he was with a peer and they actually had a moment of conversation. Yeah. As opposed to Larry just going, what do you think? Exactly. No, yeah.

I just rewatched, I just realized a good analogy for your show in a way. There was a, if you, no, I just realized a good analogy for your show in a way. There was a, if you, no because there. A good analogy. Well, you know, look, if you watch the old Dick Cavett shows, there's a lot of awkwardness. In the sitcom? No, the Dick Cavett talk shows.

Oh, Dick Cavett, I thought I meant Dick Vance. No, Dick Cavett. Dick Cavett, oh for sure. And the audience was rarely laughing, you didn't get the feeling they were there half the time. You didn't get the feeling they were there half the time. You didn't get the feeling that anyone felt the role of a studio audience is to be laughing on steroids the whole time. No. No, it was all very- And applauding every beat.

Yeah, and some of those British shows and, yeah, and there's a bit of that in your show. Those are very comforting to me. If something of note happens and it's very funny, there's a big studio laugh. There's applause when something, you know, Robbie Hoffman climbing over the couch in two seats. It was a very funny, spontaneous moment. But you did feel like it's engaging to have this audience here.

It adds electricity. But we're not here to make sure everything is. Well, that's interesting because that's almost rebellious at this point. I don't know if it's rebellious, but it was something I thought, I know this melody in my head and I'm not seeing it right now. And I also, they gave me the keys to this studio. So that's what we'll do. But I watched that. There's one of my favorite moments in show business

was Bob Dylan being presented with the lifetime achievement Grammy by Jack Nicholson. Oh, yes, of course. The best. The best. And then when Chandlin comes back out. Yeah. What is it? Bob and Jack are talking backstage

about how they're gonna to do more TV? It's really, it's great because Dylan seems to not, he tells that, you know. We does that thing about, well, you know, my father said, I said a lot of things. And even was it like everyone will forsake you? Even your parents will? Yeah, I think he? Something like that. Yeah, they said that before that. Yeah.

But there was that beat of like, you know, well, it's like my father always told me. And he waits like 15 seconds. Yeah, he said a lot of things. He told me a lot of things. And then there's that whole weirdness where Jack doesn't really know where to stand while Dylan's getting the award and he's moving around.

It's great. Yeah, it's great because what used to be just human, just the human timeframe is now kind of in the cringe column. It's why I love the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction. Yeah, because none of them are used to talking. None of them are used to talking. As you move down the line, also start with some of the fringe members

and end with who we consider the frontman. Yeah, yeah. Don't go the opposite way. But they always go the opposite way. And then they get into someone who didn't get royalties, like, come on, Debbie, come on. Let me play. All right, fine.

But they also, they couldn't have had more notice that they're gonna get an award. I know. And they couldn't have had more notice that they're gonna get an award. I know. And they couldn't have prepared less. Well, they don't think to hire a writer. People who are shocked, shocked, ingenues, that win awards and are shocked, still, once they get over the hyperventilating,

they dial into a tight, good speech that we all agree on is a good way to get it. And these people just get up year after year and blow it. So did you wait, now wait, did you turn down the Oscars? Hosting it? Yeah. I did, yes.

What was the thinking? Well, I was very flattered. They came to me, Must've been last summer. And I knew Jimmy Kimmel wasn't gonna do it and they offered it. And it was honestly that I had a lot going on and it's months and months of work. I think Conan did a great job.

The best job he's done on anything. Two totally different tops. Then he came out and he not only was so funny But he elevated the show. Yeah to the point that I almost convinced myself I had seen these movies and I'd seen not a one of them right. I was like, yeah, this was a great year It was a great year. It was a great year Yeah, but but he also did that thing where like cuz I know him for so long And I was really worried that he'd start sort of,

you know, self-erasing, which he does. You know, like he'll do a joke and be like, he'll kind of, you know, take it apart. Oh, interesting, yeah. You know, it's an insecurity, it's a habit he does. And he'll start playing with his nipples and dancing around or whatever. So, like, you know, the first, you know, fucking,

the first couple of jokes, I noticed him starting to go that way, and then I'm like, come on, the first, you know, fucking, the first couple of jokes, I noticed him starting to go that way. And then I'm like, come on, don't do it, dude. And then he just kind of like, just locked in and owned the fucking thing. Like I'd never seen it. Well, it's the same thing I thought at his Mark Twain Awards.

I went, oh, you have, he has stature. Yeah. When he's out there. Yeah. It's just this thing that has come to some of those in our business where you go, that's Conan O'Brien and he's in control and it's an amazing thing. It took a long time.

Yeah, it wasn't always natural for him. But it was to me as a fan, I was like, you know. Yeah, he's the guy. Honestly, there was no point where I thought Conan's show wasn't great. I sort of knew later through Rolling Stone or Bill Carter or something that he was struggling, but as someone watching it.

Well, just as a comic, like, as you were a kid, but we were comics and we were sort of like, why this writer? Who is this guy? Uh-huh. It's a comics job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, but whatever.

It felt like it was a time where it's like, that's generally a comics job. So there was, yeah. But you know, but whatever, it felt like it was a time where it's like, that's generally a comics job. So there was actually this envy of like our job being taken. That's very funny. It's true though. It's a different time, buddy. Different time.

So you're going to do stand up. I like it very much. But I'm in a bit like, after your last HBO special, did you forget in between specials how to... It was two weeks ago. How to what? The one before the one you just taped. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I'm talking about what's been released to the public. Yes. Yes, sir. Did you forget how to do stand-up in between? I'm afraid that I forget it after two weeks, but it's all pretty mental. I think all you forget... It's not forgetting, it's a rustiness. Because after a certain point, there's some part of you that lives up there and

he'll generally show up yeah but you know sometimes it's he's not in the same he's not jiving quite right if you get a little out of practice yeah like I believe you have to keep that channel open to talking to an audience yeah but if that goes away then there's a little bit of like all right so you guys are waiting for me to do something yeah but then the other guy steps in and goes I got it Yeah, there's always this solid He's not a trick pilot, but he can land a plane and he comes I'm just we're not breaking new ground tonight, right?

This isn't a memorable set. Yeah, but we're isn't ticket Largo. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna land the plane. It's gonna be okay It's gonna be we got to take the hit. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. We gotta take the hit. That's the hardest thing, really. And fortunately, when you come out of the special, your confidence is pretty high. So you can take a few hits after that. Well, then you schedule that first show

that where you'll have to do an hour. And you just keep thinking about the special going, wait, that's in there too. Yeah Yeah, well here's I added some stuff to it since then. Oh, I know the worst The worst. Where you find a tag later? I do it every time. Yeah. Yes, I record it Yeah, then I have a few more dates. Yeah, and suddenly the burden of the special is off Yeah, so I have this like more fertile mind. Yeah, come up with some great tags Yeah, sometimes I figure out how to finish a story that I recorded. Totally fertile mind, come up with some great tags.

Sometimes I figure out how to finish a story that I recorded. Totally, totally. Yeah, I found a couple of things the other night and I was like, god damn it, that would have been a nice callback. At the store? Was it at the store or was it, yeah, I think it was at the store,

it's all I've been doing since I got back. Yeah, I was able to put a couple of things together and it was, the thing was, I was adding shit right up until the special the week before. Like there were a couple of pieces that just kind of like, there was a joke that was funny enough the way it was, but I knew the tag wasn't right, but it was good enough.

And then like three days before the special, it was delivered to me. Oh, that's amazing. Where it's sort of like, oh, it was right there. Yeah. And it's perfect. And even if you hadn't found the perfect one, it's great to just throw something in

so that your brain is on line. Oh, totally. Yeah, I can't, yeah. We did Largo right before you went to Brooklyn to do it. Yeah. Right? And I remember you saying like, I'm not gonna run the hour.

I thought that's a good idea. Yeah. You don't wanna be too. I didn't,'t I don't think I don't think you did. Yeah But I did do I did three club shows in Vermont You know the week before okay, and because I had a whole week and I'm like, what am I doing? I got to shoot a special that Saturday. I'm just what sit on my ass in New York for a week Yeah, so I did three shows at Vermont Comedy Club and then I did one theater show in Portsmouth. But it was so funny because I'm like, this is where just do it. Do it at a comedy club. Don't like, you know, riff around with the audience. Just stand before them with that detachment one has when they have

a completed thing and fucking do it. Which is not my habit. My habit is always to sort of like, well, I'm gonna feel them. For sure, for sure. And I was like, be a professional, fuck them, do what you've prepared, and that's that. Isn't that what you said about your first half hour, HBO half hour, is that you were like, I'm just going in, I'm not preparing, I'm not going in.

Well, that was that, yeah, and it feels like that. Yeah, and it was like, but I don't know if it's this medicine I'm on, but I was not frantic at all and I knew the shit like top to bottom and I had no fears of the material at all. And because I had done those four shows before I went with that focus of like, you know, just, you know, did make some decisions.

Like I knew going in that the political stuff upfront that it's my nature to become sort of swaggery and self-righteous with that type of material. And I made a decision, I'm like my nature to become sort of swaggery and self-righteous with that type of material. And I made a decision, I'm like, try to just do it like casually. Right. And see how that works,

because then you won't have to switch gears so hard. Yeah. And I made that note a week, in that week before, and I did it that way. That's amazing. Whatever, I'm just tootin' my own horn. Well, you would also already run it and run it, so you could do it. Sure, yeah, yeah.

I could move it, I could play with it a little bit. Yeah. So what else is going on in terms of, like, how's your fucking head, dude? Pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah? Yeah. Not squirrely? Not squirrely.

How long you got sober now? Um... Well, December will be five years. Oh! Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what they say. You get your marbles back? That thing?

Or what? No. I have a darker one of those. Go ahead. Don't kill yourself in the first five years because you'd be killing the wrong person. Oh yeah, I've heard that. That's a good one, right?

That's a great one. That's not in the book. No, I don't think it is. That one might be in the end of the NA book when it's like, you know, different people who wrote in. Yeah, right. Right, right, right. The stories.

Yeah, the stories. Yeah. The stories at the end of the new NA book. That one always got me. And then there was one I heard, God doesn't wake up and think he's you. That's a good one. That's very funny. You like that one?

That's very funny. Yeah. There's a lot of good one. That's very funny. You like that one? That's very funny. Yeah. There's a lot of good ones. Yeah. But are you actively doing the thing? Yeah, I'd say I'm in a good amount of- Recovery talk? Recovery talk and work, yeah.

With the dudes? You got some dudes? Well, the biggest thing is I see a great psychiatrist once a week. Oh yeah, like a psychiatrist, full doctor. Full doctor. Oh, look at that. Addiction specialty.

Oh yeah. Which can cover many other things. Sure. And yeah, it's like, no, squirrely no. The obsession's gone. Thank God. Yeah, that should go by five, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a fucking gift. I don't exist in a lack of drugs, you know? Blow. Or just like a- Yeah, any of it, yeah. Yeah, a clonopin to fly home from- Yeah, can't do it. From penguins in Cedar Rapids, or landing

and having to finish a draft of something. So I need 60 milligrams of Adderall. Right. You just do coffee? All of that. You do coffee? I do lots of, lots of, lots of caffeine. Yeah, lots of it.

And I'm like, I'm eating these nicotines again. A lot of nicotines. Did you ever stop? I did, I stopped for like three years. Really? Yeah, now I'm on a mixture of lozenges and the zins. Yeah, I stopped totally. And it was fine though.

It was fine. Yeah. But you know what's not fine about it? It's that sort of like, you know, how do I reward myself? Yeah, for sure. It's really just- I have one non-alcoholic beer after each episode of the Doctor Who.

I've been drinking those. Yeah. And I never used to. No. But now they're better. They're better and it just feels, for some reason, for like- Yeah. I could never handle like a virgin anything.

No. It somehow feels more grown up. Well, the beers now, like there's people putting a lot of thought and heart- Yes. Into the non-alcoholic beer beverages. They taste like fucking beer. They don't taste like almost beer. They're not lacking.

No, they go through the process. I believe they actually go almost up to the fermenting process and stop. Versus creating a fake drink that tastes like beer. Yeah, I just like, cause I've been thinking about it like drugs lately, cause I think I saw some on TV or whatever, but it really is about that knowledge

that has to be drilled pretty far into you that you know you can't even do one, one thing with any safety at all. Not at all. Yeah. I don't think, there was never a point in the past five years where I deluded myself at all. That I could do one.

I never for a second thought, maybe I'll just do this this time. But even when I think about like- The question was early, early, early 2020. Yeah. Like, well, do I just dive back into oblivion? But it wasn't like, I could probably, you know, boot some Adderall every day,

then come down with a Xanax. It was never that. No, no, you always knew like, yeah, am I willing to commit my life to this again? It was like, am I becoming Batman? Yeah. Because I'll have to get all this stuff. Yeah, the lights in the sky. Yeah, I'll be spending money, I'll be out late,

and I'll be- Lying. I'll make mistakes and people will be like, that bad night, and I'll be like, trust me, it's all part of a plan. Yeah, yeah. Well, the one thing I think about, with not regularity, but like, I think like,

well, when I get old and my responsibilities change, couldn't I just smoke weed all the time? I don't know. I know. I don't know. Because there's that slippery slope, hey, it's legal and it doesn't ruin your, but-

Oh, legal never. Yeah, but- Most things I did were legal. That's right, booze is legal too. Just needed a prescription. But even, but like the I did were legal. That's right. That's booze is legal just needed a prescription But even but like the weed now and like and just knowing that if I did it, I get it's always like Like it's not like maybe I'll just do a hit. It's like I know That if I do that that's gonna be my life for sure that within two days

I'll be like I gotta go to the weed store. Oh, 100%? Yeah, yeah. It's like buying sunglasses. Yeah, exactly. I just can't stop. And I freak out when I don't, one of the greatest gifts is, now I have a phone and car keys and, I guess, a wallet. And that's it.

The lack of having to make sure I have something on me. Oh, yeah. It's also quite a chore. Yeah, I got that with the, I get that fix with the zins. The panic of like, and now. You get the panic and the reward of I remembered them. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and well the phone gives you that too. I mean if you don't know where your phone is, that's pretty, that's a rough few minutes. I guess so, yeah. Where you're like, oh shit, did I leave it at that? But uh... Actually, I have this weird thrill now where I hope I've lost it.

The phone forever? Yeah. With the Zinzo, now because it's illegal, the self-flavored ones in California because of the kids, I had to find a guy that's got them. So now I got the two layers of drug. Right, right, right, yeah. They're like, where'd you get the peppermint ones?

I got a guy. I got a guy, yeah. That's, okay, right, yeah. They're like, where'd you get the peppermint once? I got a guy. I got a guy, yeah. Okay, so that, it probably feels good to have a guy. Yeah. And like, he's got rules like, no, come on, man, it's nine p.m., you know, like he's got hours and standards, you know?

It's a little early in the day, isn't it? Yeah, well, yeah, it's a little early. No, they just gotta know you. You know, you go through the first two, like, yeah? And they give them to got to know you You know you go through the first two like yeah And they give me and then they know you and then they they don't look weird when they're going under the counter Yeah, it's not a street corner thing. No. No, it's a store. Yeah, it's a store And by the way, if I know you talk about in your special what medication are you taking or do you? Oh, I just took I'm just taking the busporin. Oh, which one's that? It's sort of a small net dopamine thing

that's like for anxiety. It's not like a full SSRI. Oh, interesting. But it just works on this one area. And I think it's very, the joke I had about it, being adverse to SSRIs is that Doc says, well, there's this other stuff I can give you that generally doesn't work for people

And like that that sounds like the right drug for me doc Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I know because I didn't want to have any of the brain fog or any of that stuff And but I do it's funny. There's also these things like MAO inhibitors that were sort of the precursor of antidepressants, but you can't be on, you can't, I think, you can't eat certain cheeses. Oh, right. Certain foods would like have a terrible chemical reaction with them. It's like grapefruit and statins.

Yeah. But my doctor was like, oh, they're probably the best drug. People just couldn't handle not eating the cheese. Oh, really? I was like, wow, people really. Do you do a thing couldn't handle not eating the cheese. Oh, really? I was like, wow, people really. Do you do a thing? You got one? Yeah, I take Welbutrin and Zoloft.

Wow. So that balances it out because Welbutrin will jack you up a little bit. So I can't recall if I ever had that, but maybe it was- It used to be marketed to help people quit smoking under a different name. What was it called? It started with a Z, I think. And then you learned that it was just Welbutrin. Was it Chantix?

Chantix, maybe, yeah. And I remember I was on that, and it definitely jacked me up. But everyone's going to respond differently. You know, I started Welbutrin at a time when I still used a lot of amphetamines. Yeah? Oh my God. And so I don't recall. Right, right.

And it's working for you, this combination? It has been, yeah. No side effects. You're not gonna get fat. It's been a while. So if there's a side effect, I'm so used to it. I think I had some stomach issues with Zoloft, but they went away.

And I might reduce Zoloft. In fact, I am currently reducing Zoloft a little. Yeah? And I haven't noticed anything yet. You know I'm interviewing your wife tomorrow. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Isn't that wild?

That's wild. Yeah. How's that going? Great. Okay. Good. Oh, so good. All right, take it easy.

No, you asked. I'm telling you. Okay, well I'm good, I'm glad. Yeah. Yeah, I just don't want you to overkill it. I know. And so people go like, I don't know. I know. All right.

I know how the public works. I understand perception of things. I'll tell you one thing and I'll tell her tomorrow, she's fucking great in this show, dude. She's great on that show. Great. Really, and on that show. Great. Really, and just wait. Just wait.

Till the last one? Well, you'll see. Well, no, I've watched all of them. Oh, till the last one. Oh yeah, you're in the media, yeah. I mean, cause I gotta talk to her. I'm talking to your listeners. And I haven't seen,

well, by the time we put this up, it'll all have been aired, but I haven't seen her in a long time. Do stuff. After we had our son and then she was diagnosed with cancer, she was not working for three or four years. And she's all good for now? She's still on a course of treatment

that will be a few years. Oh really? But they did catch it, though it was aggressive, they did catch it at a good, I don't know if there's any good, but the short answer is she's got, you know, you just don't say in the clear yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. But she's so fucking good in this show.

She's great on the show. It's like, it's not even like, cause I don't know her, it's not like, oh, it's a perfect role for her, she just acts the good in this show. She's great on the show. It's like, it's not even like, cause I don't know her, it's not like, oh, it's a perfect role for her, she just acts the fuck out of it. Yeah, she makes, I mean, I talk to her in between, you know, she come home, how was it, I sort of was vaguely aware of what the show was about,

but like, she makes the most interesting choices. And when I've talked to her about running lines for something I'm doing, the thing I always think to do is change the words. I go, well, I know how to get the emotion across. I'll just change every word you have here. I'll put it in a different one. It's really interesting to watch a real actor who can-

Work within the words you've given. Yeah, work within the words. I only realized that recently. I thought, oh, you're figuring it out with what they wrote. That within the words. Yeah, I think I only realized that recently I thought oh you're figuring it out with what they wrote That's the dress. I'm like I'll show up early. I'll show up ten minutes early and go hey right here Can I say this yeah? Yeah, I wrote some pretty good lines for you. Yeah. Yeah, I know you guys are writers, but I'm also a writer. You know, I did a little sketch comedy And the kids how is that treating you?

How's it changing you? I just, I don't know if I changed, I doubled. Like I expanded where I can do, I almost feel like I can do more, less of a trade-off and more like I've just become. You integrated it. Yeah, but also I genuinely feel like my brain doubled in size, like we knocked a wall down.

Well, it's the kid wall. And there was all this space. Well, also like, you know, I think that you're wired for the emotional connection if you're a normal human being. Yeah. Like you have kids and the party that goes, oh, you're supposed to love them, should kick in pretty quick.

Immediate. It wasn't even that, it was, oh, oh, hi again. That was the real feeling. Oh, yeah, yeah. Especially with my daughter. Yeah. Oh, okay, I know you. Yeah, and you're gonna be here a while.

Yeah, and we have the sweetest, funniest, nicest kids. I tell you this, like, yeah, you can't oversell it because it sounds disingenuous. No, no, no. I'm in a very, very happy time. Yeah? I'm in a really happy time.

Aren't you glad you can appreciate it? Yeah, I totally can. And I find I can be more of a psychopath in my work because I go home and I go, oh, these people really like me. Show's over, I can just be myself. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everyone here really likes me. You don't believe everybody else though? Whatever it. It's just different relationships. This is a different relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, cause they're my children's wife. Yeah, yeah.

I guess you gotta suck, you know, kind of take it in while you can. Cause I, from what I understand, there are periods where they might not like you as much. Yeah, there are times. Yeah. Can you think, do you think yourself as a teenager, like I put my parents to hell at some, at certain points.

Yeah, I had a, I had a slightly different relationship where I was trying to keep my parents separate from whatever I was doing. Yeah. That was a problem. And I really felt like, I felt quite noble in this pursuit. You figured it out. And when I would get caught, when the two would meet,

I would get mad at my parents because they weren't giving me credit for how much I tried to keep this away from them. I was like the head of the CIA talking to the president, like, do you know what the fuck I do over here? It's not for you to know about. Yeah. Get out of my personal life.

Yeah. I remember thinking as a kid, I'm gonna try to keep my personal life separate from my family. Yeah. Yeah. And you're pretty successful at it apparently. Well.

I mean, as you got older, it seems like the amount of surprise that everyone had, you know, when you were kind of, when you hit the wall. Because, you know, like a lot of people- Oh, some surprise, yeah. No, no, totally. I mean, outside of your inner circle, who were probably just concerned.

And you I had talked to months earlier, remember that? When you're trying to get it. Early pandemic when I was like, hey, hey, you know about, you know, have you ever heard of relapse? Yeah, yeah. I don't know if I gave you good advice. I mentioned I did. Yeah, you did. But like it's so funny because for somebody like me, I don't know if I told you this,

you know, when you went through all that shit, my response was like, well good for him. That makes him much more interesting. Like he's a real deal. This guy's the real deal. That was the first thing Lauren said to me when I saw him after all that. He went, oh, you finally became interested. That demon. People were surprised and also there is something about going through something very human in front of people where it, I mean, certainly I don't need to tell you that, but like there's also, rather than feel like,

oh, are you all disappointed in me? There's this great like, great extra familiarity with the audience from it. Totally, because like it's like, it's, you know, you float in this ether when you're not being candid on any level. Yeah. In your art, where, you know, you're just,

you're boxed in and you're an entertainer. But then when all this human shit happens, you're gonna get people that are like, fuck him. But most of the people are gonna be like, nah, I had a brother who had, I've been through that, or whatever they did. Yeah, whatever it people are gonna be like, nah, I had a brother who had, I've been through that, or whatever they did. Yeah, whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

How'd you handle all that fucking pushback when you got divorced? So- You disappointed a lot of girls, I think. Or something. I don't recall exactly. I was focused on a couple things at that time. One, I'm in like month three or four.

Of sobriety? Of sobriety. And I wouldn't even say I had to shut it all out because it all got back to me. But the crisis at hand was, you know, like I'll keep the boy alive. And then, um, and then we are into the summer and, uh, my son's born in November. Oh, yes.

So what was happening in my life was not... It didn't really rhyme with what was being said out there. Which is, like, almost always the case. Yeah. Like what's being said out there is just this weird kind of, you know, beast of its own. Yeah.

It feeds itself. Yeah. Well, sometimes you're going through the thing everyone's talking about. And sometimes you go, no, that's in the past actually. Yeah. You guys are gonna have to let this go. I have a whole other thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like I, yeah, I have a whole other thing. Yeah, yeah, you know like I yeah I have a whole other thing where I'm yeah trying to chain Smoking and yeah and trying to keep a kid alive. Yeah and trying to figure out how to do that Yeah, yeah, and these people are like what an asshole my hand be like wow Wow without coke. I've gained a lot of weight. Did you? Yeah. Oh yeah. You never got fat. I'll tell you this. Yeah.

A critic saw me at City Winery. Yeah. And he wrote, as if, it's so funny with everything I went through that I still zeroed in on this. Yeah. He wrote, he looks healthier. He looks heavier. And I was like, just the first part. We don't need the second part.

His suit doesn't fit. Yeah, his suit, the buttons are pulling. Just say he looks healthier. Well, you get that kind of like weird rehab puffiness. Oh my God. I mean, I was kind of a- Plates of carbs. I was quite a cigarette and amphetamine person.

What, you were smoking? All the time. Really? I quit a cigarette and amphetamine person. What you, you were smoking? All the time. Really? I quit a couple weeks. I quit in early November, 2021. But was that something you did as a kid too? Yeah, I- Oh, you smoked your whole life.

Yeah, I smoked my whole life. Yeah, I got a chest X-ray recently and they said, how long did you smoke? And I thought, let's see, I was 13 and I quit when I was 39. Me too, dude. And they were like, oh, 26 years. And I'm like, yeah, when you say it like that.

Yeah. And I said, do you count the teen years? Yeah. And they go, yeah. Yeah. It's fucking crazy, dude. 14, I started when I was 14. Yeah.

And I can't like- Did your parents smoke? My mom smoked occasionally. But it wasn't like a house where the kids are allowed to smoke. No, but like my high school we could smoke. That's so interesting. Well, there was like 3,400 kids in my high school.

It was a public high school. What are they gonna do? You could smoke because it was just unmanaged. Oh yeah, no. They couldn't stop them. You would get Saturday jug, they called it, if you went to high school. No, they couldn't contain it.

It's not like you could do it in the school, but you could definitely smoke. Yeah. I went to a camp where you could smoke. That's so funny. Music and arts camp when I was 15. I remember my aunt bought me a cart and a Marlboro Red. Pfft.

Ha ha ha ha. Just smoking it up. Just smoking at camp. Yeah. And playing guitar. It was like the perfect thing. I was always fascinated by those kids where you go to their house and they'd just be smoking and their mom would come in and ask for a lighter and everyone was smoking. Yeah, it was a rare thing, but it was kind of amazing, wasn't it?

It was kind of amazing and I couldn't have envied it was a rare thing, but it was kind of amazing, wasn't it? It was kind of amazing, and I couldn't have envied it more. That they were normalized that much. Yeah. No, I mean, I guess I really quit in 2000, and just when I got sober, I think, 99, by 2001, I was done, 63, 73, 83, 93. Yeah, like-

Do you look at it, sorry. Do you have two periods? Is it like Comedy Store Sam Kinnison, then did you actually stop everything or were you not really, really sober till the early 2000s? Dude, it took me, the first time I got sober was 1987. And that was like total abstinence for you? I went to rehab.

How did you do that? I left LA after that Kinnison thing, and I was psychotic. I had coached myself into psychosis. And I was hearing voices in my head, and I had to leave because a voice told me. And all I could, all I... Did it name the place you should go to?

I just away. Go to Tucson. I did go to Tucson. Oh, very nice. Oddly. Very nice. Cause my brother was in school there. Oh, funny. And I didn't know what to do.

I packed up everything I had in my car and I just left in a panic. And all I knew was like, I gotta get a new passport cause I'm gonna have to get out. Yeah. And I didn't even know why. Yeah. But then I got home and I'd gotten a month

or a space from the store. And I said, I gotta check in because I'm like you know I'm you know I'm at this weird point where if I don't have silver pinky rings on and a skull on my shirt I'm gonna be in trouble. I was out of my mind. Yeah yeah yeah. So then I went to uh I thought I was seeing the other signs man. Yeah yeah yeah.

And uh but then. The skulls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But then- Skulls. Yeah, well, they were protecting me. And you'll see in all those early pictures, there had to be some representation. Of the skull. Yeah, I had a little skull pinky ring,

I had a skull on my shirt. But then I would stay sober for, I never got the program. So I would stay sober for like a year and a half max. So I got out of rehab, went back to New York, started over again. Within a year and a half, I was using again, went to California, kind of like sober up here and there.

And then again, I get totally sober for like a year and a half. It wasn't until I met Mishna in 99 where she kind of walked me through the basic stuff about the program. Okay. Like I did not get the program. Right, right.

So it took me whatever, like I've got what, 25 years this year? 26? Congratulations. 26 years this year. So that would have been 99, but the first time I got sober was in 87. Wow, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of-

Just periods of abstinence then, falling back then. Yeah, but falling back, you know, by the time I met her, I was on the, you know, I was bloated and sweaty and I had kind of resigned myself to the marriage I was in and I thought like, my thinking was I was hosting a local TV show in New York for, I can't even remember the station. I'm like, all right, well, if I can just get jobs like this, I'll be okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just wanted to be dead. Yeah. And then Mishna just like appeared out of the clouds. And I'm like, I want to be with her. And it just so happened she was sober. I looked out. Wow.

So all the basic ideas of, we're going to meetings two, three times a day. I had nothing to do. Yeah. So when I first got sober, you know, you get that crew running around New York, doing two or three meetings a day, totally locked in, sponsored. Yeah, no, I left the second rehab I was in

and my counselor was like, a minimum 180 and 90 days. You have to do two a day, 490 days. He was like, there's no world where you're gonna be fine occasionally going to a, he's like, it's the pandemic, they're all on Zoom, you're gonna go to a minimum of two a day. Did you? Yeah. Yeah

I mean like I it was you well, that was the thing that stuck with me. It's like you got to put it your first Now and like you're lucky the pandemic was happening in a way Cuz you to put your sobriety first above and beyond everything else And the and the belief that everything will fall in place after that is a solid thing. Though with my ego, it was weird because it felt like everything shut down because I had a drug problem. I can't get hold of my guy anymore. Yeah, I was like, everyone's taking this hard and we're all just pausing. No one's going to work. Everyone's getting their food delivered.

And you're like, but wait, if I come over with a mask, can I still get the drugs? Oh, please. I didn't even know that the nasal tests hurt until well after getting so. Oh, really? Because people used to complain. Like, oh, they stick it up there. And I was so numb that I'd go to get different COVID tests

for things in the early pandemic. I was like, what are people talking about? Yeah, it took a long time and sadly, or maybe not, I don't go to many meetings. One of my best friends is very sober saying I talk to him often. There's people I call, but I don't go to many meetings and it probably wouldn't kill me.

But I find that there's other issues. Like, I'm not worried about drinking or using drugs. But there are some weird, you know, Alan-Annie, you know, graduate-level recovery that I could probably engage in. Then I don't quite do it. But I'm back in therapy. We'll see what happens.

Yeah. And I'm old, dude. But you're young. Yeah. Some people are not. Young, old. You're just you. Right, thank God.

And that probably has something to do with my commitment to boots and no kids. And do you wear any skulls now? I don't, dude. I don't have any skulls. So you're really vulnerable. Very vulnerable. The constant reminder of death

is firmly planted in my head now. So I don't need to stave it off with my skull shirts. So are you gonna go on a vacation come this fall when you're done? I don't know if I know how. I know, but are you gonna try? You think I should? Yeah.

Were you doing, you were doing the podcast into the IFC show, into the podcast. I did the podcast no matter what I was doing, dude. That's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. Well, I mean, I might spend time in New Mexico, but I don't know where it was one time.

Somewhere else, how about somewhere else? How about going somewhere else? Well, we might have to leave. Wait, do you mean like to see family or yeah Family yeah a vacation. I used to go to Hawaii frequently. Hey, I used to go to kawaii like once I brought We yeah exactly. But once I brought the fourth girlfriend to kawaii And I was saying I've been here. Yeah, yeah. That's so funny.

Yeah, yeah. This land's very healing. I told that to my last three girlfriends. Yeah, or wives. Yeah. I don't know, where have you gone? Um, I do, Hawaii is great. What do I really like?

Oh, you could go to Ireland. I like Ireland. I went to Ireland with Lynn and I go there to work. I didn't go this year. I'm kind of sad about it. I was at the Kilkenny Festival the same time as you, I think. I was fucking nightmare. You was?

Yeah. You were going on runs. I remember you're the first person I knew that ran without music playing. Oh, interesting memory. I just thought it sounded that, you know what? That when you were asking about taking time off and being at peace with yourself, I have noticed that I cannot do most things in life without music playing or some audio playing.

I just find with exercise, running specifically, I mean, I understand the music thing and I've done that a lot. I remember you told me now you just listen to your breath and I was like, that sounds like- But also time goes by quicker when you don't listen to your breath and I was like, that's kind of- But also time goes by quicker when you don't listen to music. Because yeah, there's something about songs

that measure time. I just find that if I'm running without music, my brain wanders like it does in real life, then all of a sudden time goes by. But like with songs, I'm like, all right, I know this next time. Oh, right, right, here's the bridge. Right, or whatever, or whatever your song list is, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's just crazy. That's weird that I have been exercising for a long time. Yeah, Ireland is fucking great, dude. Yeah. Do you journey, do you take trips with friends? I always picture you guys are, I talked to Kroll the other day,

I'm like, are you guys spending family time together? Yeah. You do, you bring the kids and all that stuff? Yeah, well, our kids are close enough in age and then Dan Levy. He's got what, nine kids? He has nine now. Yeah. Wow. And they live in an ultra-orthodox community on Beverly and the Breast. He's got three and his daughter Penny was born across the hall from my son. Oh, wow. Same night. Isn't that nice though?

So you guys do the whole, are you like traveling like Newhart and Rickles? Yes. And then I'll get some terrible New Year's Eve show, and he'll open the show and we'll bring our families and... Make a vacation out of it? Yeah, and we always think this will be great. We'll get adjoining suites and then it's just, we're all in one living room with kids running around. Yeah, and we always think, this'll be great. We'll get adjoining suites and you know, then it's just, we're all in one living room

with kids running around. Yeah, not great. Different kind of thing. But have you gone to Europe and stuff? I have gone to Europe with Dan Levy, but it was for a standup. Oh, but never like, let's bring the families. Skiing?

But we would, no, I won't ski. I'm not gonna do that. Have you ever? Yeah, when I was younger, and now I think about it. Comes right back. But. It's a little exhausting. You gotta get way down the line.

Look what happened to Tony Danza and that awful Michael Smith Kennedy or whatever. Oh, the tree thing? Sonny Bono? Doesn't it seem, it seems too wild. Dangerous? Yeah, it seems too dangerous. All right, I get it.

Also, like if, I will say this, we're talking about being in a great place in life, I do sometimes think like, yeah, but what if you blew out your knee and you couldn't, you know, work out and go do stand-up and do all these things? And you had to pay medication prescription. For sure.

That's the- But I do think about that in terms of like, any injury that would lay me up, I'm like, you'd be okay, you have a wonderful family and support system and a wonderful wife, but let's not pursue it. Yeah, let's not push it. Let's not strap it on skis at the Aspen Comedy Fair. I had some dental work done.

They gave me an oxycodone prescription. It was one of those things where I know well enough about stuff. Oddly, I only took one the day of, and then I'm like, and then they sat in my cabinet for a long time, and then I didn't feel any craving or anything, but I'm like, dude, just throw them away. Yeah, yeah, why are they still here? And I threw them down the toilet,

and I got two emails from fucking concerned, progressive, sensitive people that said, you really shouldn't throw them down the toilet because it goes into the water supply. I'm like, I don't give a fuck. We're gonna throw them away. Like it's like people that, you know, take the batteries and you know, paint.

The water supply. Yeah. It's gonna get into the water supply. Yeah, the oxycodone, not the, you know, tens of thousands of gallons of Prozac and people's piss. It's my oxycodone. It's your oxycodone that will get the world,

that will get all the LA tap water drinkers. All the LA tap water drinkers. Well, I think they were primarily worried about it, fucking up the almond groves. Oh, we do need more almonds. No, I don't know what they were worried about and I understand their sentiment. But that's so interesting that you just said,

and then I threw them down the toilet and people got mad at me and you left out the part where you told everyone on your podcast. Yeah. So it's an interesting that you just said, and then I threw him down the toilet and people got mad at me. And you left out the part where you told everyone on your podcast. Yeah. So it's an interesting piece of your life where you do an action and then there's- I talk about it, gentlemen. You even missed the, yeah.

Yeah, well, that's all gonna be gone. Yeah. And I'm not gonna know what people know anymore. Hey, listen, if you miss it, and you wanna come back and do it, just come back and do it. Don't think, cause you did a, I assume, big farewell and countdown and everything. Well, just come back and do it. Don't think, cause you did a, I assume,

big farewell and countdown and everything. Well, here's the thing. That you can't. I sometimes feel bad for people that Oh, that farewell. feel trapped by their finale. Yeah, well, I mean, I don't like, I don't, like I just don't want to do this without Brendan.

Cause this guy is a genius and he's been watching my back forever. Yeah. You know, and you know, just me talking without someone then taking the talking and making decisions after the fact. It's not always great, you know, in terms of like, you know, sometimes I'm too candid.

And I'm not always aware of what's going to cause trouble. Oh, I see. Yeah. And to have a good producer, like I would say things on here, and while I'm doing my monologues, I'll say like, you're probably gonna take that out, but all right. Man, I have to say he is quite good

because the flow of it, I would never guess things are out. Yeah, he's the best. So I don't think I'll do this without him. And then the other thing is like, well, you're an interviewer, there's jobs, you could do that. I'm like, why?

How am I gonna do it as good as this? You know, like on a TV? Yeah, what format and why, yeah. Yeah, what's the point of it? Like I can't, what am I gonna do? Yeah, I don't know. But I'm just gonna, I'll do the standup and maybe I'll get better as an actor and do that.

And then if you ever wanna interview someone, there's always terrible Paley Center panels and 92Y. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Whenever you feel like I'd like to host an evening. Yeah, get me into the live moderating game. The symphony space, 92Y, Paley Center. I've done those.

FYC events. The future is bright, my friend. Well, maybe I'll just kind of figure out a TED talk. Do people still do those? I don't know. Yeah. All right, buddy. Good talking to you.

Hey man, congrats. Thanks for having me again. Yeah. There you go, folks. John Mulaney. I like that guy and I feel like we're friends. Everybody's live with John Mulaney. The episodes are available on Netflix.

I think as he said, we're not sure if there's going to be new ones, but go check out what they were up to. All right. Hang out for a minute. Watch Red Ash now until June 15th. Terms apply. You searched for your informant who disappeared without a trace. You knew there were witnesses, but lips were sealed. You swept the city, driving closer to the truth

while curled up on the couch with your cat, there's more to imagine when you listen. Discover heart-pounding thrillers on Audible. Hey, folks, Full Marin listeners, get a bonus episode tomorrow where Brendan and I go into more detail about our decision to end the show, we'll give you the whole story. Like, I don't really have any apprehension about our decision. No, it's so funny because I walked over here and I was like, you know, I was pretty sure

that we were on the same page, but I didn't know 100% that if I said the way I felt about it, like, you might have a different feeling or you might be like, wait, but end it entirely? Shouldn't we keep it going somehow? But right away, I was like, I think the smartest thing to do is for us to end this.

And you were like, yep. Well, people have always said to both of us, in my mind, it was always gonna, if anyone said how long you do for, I'm like, as long as Brendan wants. Yeah, and I said the same thing, right. But so that then becomes a thing where we actually do have to figure it out.

And oddly, I think we're both on the same page. Well, it was that thing, what it was, it was really, I think, cause we have pretty good boundaries with each other. And to our credit, nothing has ever really polluted our professional or personal relationship, whether it was ego or wanting to do other things.

But I think that conversation we had a few months ago about just the level of burnout we were operating at and acknowledging it, because I won't acknowledge that. That's right, that's right. And I think that you were sort of ahead of me in identifying it. And how could it not be that? That's right. That's right. And I think that you were sort of ahead of me in identifying it. Yeah. And how could it not be that?

That's right. Because because of the nature of my work and how I work and being self-employed, I never even factor that in. Right. That it's even a real thing. That bonus episode posts tomorrow for full-merin subscribers. To sign up, go to the link in the episode description

or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast. Here's some guitar that after I came up with it, I realized it's pretty close to a cat power song, but that's, that's good. I'm gonna be a good boy So So So So So So So Boomer lives, Monkey and Lafonda, cat angels everywhere.