WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1651 - Mike Birbiglia

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

Perhaps a reason there’s always tension between Mike Birbiglia and Marc is they have a lot in common. That’s also probably the reason that, despite this tension, Mike has made multiple trips to the garage. This time, Mike and Marc talk about the job of making people laugh about things that make them sad or angry, the benefits and risks of centering your comedy around your personal life, and how they’ve both made peace with their doctor dads, with Mike dealing with it in his new Netflix special, The Good Life. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Find your getaway. Contact a travel expert or visit. Selloffvacations.com. Your door to big deals is on DoorDash right now. Sign up for DoorDash and enjoy a free Big Mac on your first McDonald's order of $20 or more. Only on DoorDash now until June 15th. Terms apply. Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. If you're just getting on board here, welcome. I know some people are curious.

They've been reading about it. It's sort of still amazing to me, but not really. Just how we all create our own little bubbles. And I know for a fact that most people don't know who I am. Most people in the world. But that's okay, it's really okay. I'd rather be a little below the radar. I'd like to just cruise at my own altitude

and I don't wanna be something everybody looks up in the sky and says, oh shit, look at that thing. No, I just kinda wanna zip by my by my own lane my own frequency and my own Altitude and and live the life, but if you are just checking in For the first time welcome. You've got a lot of catching up to do. It's only about 1600 and and and change episodes, but they're all pretty good I can vouch for them because I was there when they happened. I hope you're well, I hope that thing cleared up,

and I hope that everything was okay with that meeting you had, and I also hope that you don't hurt yourself, because you're not paying attention to the road right now. Wake up! Hey, hey, don't ride the brake. I was in a car the other day, and, don't ride the brake. I was in a car the other day and the guy was riding the brake.

There is nothing I cannot stand more than that. It makes me furious. I'm sure there's deeper issues that are probably being brought up, but the riding the brake thing, I can't take it. I don't know how to ride the brake in anything. Well, that's not true. Maybe not ride the brake, but I'll hang out in the lower gear sometimes.

So look, you guys, I know a lot of you are watching and reading and hearing and freaking out about what is really martial law here in some parts of the Los Angeles area. This is an authoritarian shit show of a political theater put on by our sociopathic huckster clown king to kind of flex his dick and show us what the future holds. But it is happening. But I do want you to know that even people that know better, that when it's sort of, you know, presented as the state of California is burning this state of California is in chaos the state of California is Crumbling just know that the state of California is fucking huge

I mean is it what is it is it the biggest state or is Texas is the second biggest state? I mean there is shit going down and it's horrible shit. There are peaceful protests that have been instigated into something maybe more than that by the Marine presence, by the National Guard presence. The cops here were doing fine, but I'm telling you this is a flex and this is the country we're living in now. And anybody who watches this shit, watches this horrible reality of innocent people being ripped out of their homes with no due process and taken away and Watches clips of that and thinks yeah, this is the way America should be you're a shitty person

You're just a shitty person and there's a lot more shitty people than I ever imagined You know, I used to think people were fundamentally or innately decent or cared about other people, but something's broken the brains of many. There's a mania, there's a doubling down, there's a honoring one's worst and most primitive instincts in relation to other human beings. There's a loss of decency, a loss of tolerance, and most primitive instincts in relation to other human beings.

There's a loss of decency, a loss of tolerance, a loss of basic love and respect, and it's just being fanned. These flames are being fanned, and this is the shit show we live in. I'm grateful to the people that stood up and got out there and tried to have a peaceful protest like we're allowed to do,

to speak our minds and show what we believe in as Americans. And it takes a tremendous amount of courage to do that. But I just want you to know that not unlike most other states, probably all other states, California is a huge place with lots of different kinds of people in it, lots of good people, lots of iffy it, lots of good people, lots of

iffy people, lots of shitty people, lots of people that are struggling, but it's massive. And this idea that this state is crumbling because that's how it's being contextualized or presented to you on your phone or in the clips you're watching is not true. There are people standing up, there are people out in the streets, there are people engaging in their democratic right to a peaceful protest, there are people like me talking on microphones, and there are people just kind of, you know, herding horses and, you know, doing some farming and, you know, trying to have a life. But I don't think you should be blind to it, But I don't think you should be blind to it, but just know that this is political theater on behalf of an authoritarian government in what's becoming more and more a fascist culture in order to terrify and frighten the average person.

And it's probably working. That said, so I got Mike Birbiglia on the show. And look, I go way back with this guy, and I've talked about our history together on episode 94, then he was on again for episode 300 when he was the interviewer of me. I was in his film, Sleepwalk, with me. He's also the director of Don't Think Twice. He's had four Netflix specials including his latest called The Good Life. And silly problems between me and him. They're not even problems. They're just

feelings. Persist mostly in me. And look, I know it's me and it's one of these weird kind of things I have to deconstruct and live in and figure out why these feelings exist and what I need to act on, probably none. And you know, why I have this thing with him, I don't know. But he keeps coming back, folks. He keeps coming back because, you know, I think on some level we like each other on another level he's got a special coming out so so when we get when we get to it we we get on it you know what I mean we get into it a bit but it's I would say it's better than it has been in the past the documentary are we good is screening at

the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City. Come see it this Saturday, June 14th at 5 p.m. That's at the OKX Theater on Chambers Street. I'll be doing a Q&A with Tracey Letts after the screening. Then Sunday, June 15th at 5 30 p.m. It's a screening at the Village East on 2nd Avenue and 12th Street. Also, there are now four episodes of Stick on Apple TV+. New episodes premiere every Wednesday. I gotta watch that new one I'm watching them as they happen with you It's a good show me and Owen or I think we're doing a good everyone in the cast is doing a great job a great job so look it's time to Take home security seriously, okay

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It's by a woman named Diana Moskovitz. And it's a beautiful, beautiful article. And look, I'm not tooting my own horn, but you know, when you read about yourself and your achievements and what you do, like me and Brendan and, and you do, like me and Brendan, and there is insights there that I couldn't have because I barely know how many people listen to this.

I don't check numbers, I don't know. I just do these talks and I'll look at social media sometimes, but I'm never, it's been years and years since I've worried about who's taking it in or what they think about it necessarily. But this woman has had a long relationship with this show and she's a great writer and her assessment of it and her experience with it was just beautiful. I got choked up at the end and she really got something and it's something, there's a whole section in this piece that I wouldn't have never really thought of about whatever it is I do in my monologues,

my particular tone, my particular sense of myself but more than that my particular position or emotional disposition as a man in a society where men are thought of in a certain way. And much of that is toxic and much of it is predictable. But she was able to really kind of oddly compare my emotional output and how I handle my tone on this show as fundamentally the domain of women writers and presenters in terms of what I talk about

and how open I am about my particular problems or vulnerabilities or cats or whatever. And I was very moved by that, not insulted or felt it was off. It made perfect sense. Yes, I do all I can to be a good woman. Damn, I got a serious yin and yang thing going on there, but both the yin and the yang is,

in terms of male, female, are pretty well represented. But she also took in the way she framed her favorite interviews, which were outliers, or ones that I don't hear much with Sir Ian McKellen and Sir Patrick Stewart and why she liked them and how they represented the show. And also just sort of assessing my relationship with Brendan, who has been my production partner and business partner from day one in a very equal relationship, 50-50 all the way down the line and it's always been our game. It's always been our thing We've never sold it out, you know We've done ads but we've always maintained control and this is the only thing we do and the way she framed it is being not unlike A a punk rock band who you love but you know eventually will will not be a band anymore was kind of beautiful and very touching.

I recommend that you read this thing not because again that I'm tooting my own horn but I thought it was a kind of brilliant and deep and personal and honest and on the money assessment of what Brendan and I have done here over the last 16 years. Look if you're looking to buy or rent a place to live, or you just want to have fun scrolling through dream homes, you should start using the Redfin app, whether it's for fun or for your next place to live. Search all the homes for sale

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an appreciation of the appreciation, and also just my life. Cats are okay, a little nervous. They seem to know too much when I'm preparing to travel. So look, Mike Brabiglia is here. I think we had a relatively pleasant interaction. We got past whatever dumb stuff I have maintained in terms of tension between us

and got to talk about jokes and his new special and about life and death. It was good. His new Netflix special, The Good Life, is streaming now and this is me talking to Mike. Mike. Your door to big deals is on DoorDash right now. Sign up for DoorDash and enjoy a free Big Mac on your first McDonald's order of $20 or more.

Only on DoorDash now until June 15th. Terms apply. Okay. Yeah, the notion of having to be aware of a bit and how it can be disassembled and re- Yeah, you were considering, you were cutting a bit from your special you're shooting. Well, yeah, it wasn't supposed to be in there. I'd made the decision not to do it

because it was always provocative and it's a difficult situation. And what ultimately, and then we shot it after the second show just to have it. And I talked to Brendan, I talked to my director, and I talked to my girlfriend just about the, it's not so much, there's no cowardice in not doing it. All that I'm saving myself from is the bit being cut up

and then me being trolled for the rest of my life. No, that's, whenever people ask me, can you not say anything anymore, which is a real trope now whenever people ask me, can you not say anything anymore, which is a real trope now. It's like, you can't say anything anymore. Okay, you have to have an answer for that. You can, except people can cut it up into a 10 second version, a three second version,

a 60 second version, and so then it's completely out of your hands. That's right. And then like you're saying, people can use it against you for the rest of the time. So then when you're releasing a comedy special, you gotta go like, okay, how could they use this? But like, do you, like you, like I know exactly what my concern is because it's political.

But like for you, what would an example of pre-thinking- Well, I have that joke in the special, you know, basically eight-year-olds are insufferable. Oh yeah. When I spend time with my daughter's friends. Oh, the pedophilia joke. you know, basically eight-year-olds are insufferable. When I spend time with my daughter's friends, I think like this makes me really not understand pedophilia. Right, that's a tricky joke. It's a tricky joke, but it's like a good joke.

Sure. You know what I mean? I'm like, no, no, I stand behind this joke. This is a provocative, insane joke, but I'm on the right side of it. Sure, well that's the thing is that, you know, if you, especially if you've been doing it as long as we have, and you work on these jokes,

and you know when you're doing the jokes that like, this is a button pusher in a way, it's not even a button pusher, what it is, it's a take on something that puts you in the center of it, and then people have to, you know, kind of go through the shocking element of it. Yeah, and that's actually the fun of this whole special. That's exactly right.

Is like, I like, I have a joke about my dad. I go, the stroke, my dad had a stroke. It's been devastating, but I will say it has calmed him down. And it's like. Yeah, I used to do stuff about my dad, his manic depression and dementia. Like he's not depressed anymore.

Right. No, no, it's crazy. I just heard you on the phone with your dad. It's actually very sweet. Like you say, I love you. I've never had that. Oh really? We don't say, I love you.

We say, take care. Yeah, yeah. No, you know, they soften up and my dad was always, they would say, I love you, but I didn't believe it. Right. So, but in terms of those jokes, is that that is the great thrill of doing a dark joke. Is that like, you managed to transcend the darkness.

That is the trick of the whole thing. Is you have this horrendous thing at the core of it, and then you can lift it up to, and it's not even shed light on it, but to disarm it through comedy, right? That's the thing. Yeah. And that's the thing I was like, we should talk about that because

Bleak to Dark does that. And, and I think that life does that. But it takes work, dude. Yeah, it takes work. It's a lot of work. Because you have to, you have to find the tone. It's so hard. It's, it's through repetition

and getting comfortable with it yourself. And then like it really, it's different. It's interesting. Cause you know, you craft jokes, you know, I think we're similar in how we go about putting stuff together. I think you are actually the person that made me do callbacks.

And it was driven by resentment. And Perfect. Cause I, it's true though. I don't know. I never's true though. I don't know, I never told you that. I watched one of your older specials. It was probably before, more later or something,

and I saw the way you structured them. And at that point, I wasn't really looking for through lines and there wasn't really a thread connecting them together. And then I watched you and I'm like, oh, it's a trick, it's callbacks. I can fucking do that. And at spite you move me forward creatively, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's like I don't think of it as callbacks, I think of it as for momentum. So in other words, instead of and then, and then, and then, it's so then, so then, so

then. So that you have to, sometimes you have to remind people, oh yeah, that was my girlfriend in college. You know what I mean? So it's a callback, technically, in stand up comedy terms, but actually you're reminding them of the story that you're in. Yeah, but the thing that it,

the illusion it creates is a story that threads the whole thing together. But this, your special, your new one, is basically a story. It's a story, yeah. Yeah, but like when you don't necessarily have a through line for the whole set, if you can drop a reference to an earlier bit later on,

there's a connection that kinda holds the whole thing together. Yeah. It's an illusion though, because it's not a story, but it's just sort of like, oh, I remember that from the other, sure. Yeah, and I try to find them all the time now. That's cool.

But the thrill. I'm glad I've taught you about comedy. Yeah, I appreciate it. Well, I mean, I've never denied your abilities. That's nice. I've never denied your abilities. Yeah, you can use that as a blurb. I'm really good at blurbs.

I tried to be so diplomatic with Nick Kroll about his new movie that he kept saying that's a good tag, what is it? You're blurb for it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were all kind of horrible. Like, it feels complete. Oh my gosh.

Like that kind of stuff. Wow. But yeah, it's interesting. Like, yeah, the thing we're talking about of like turning something sad like you did with Lin into something funny. I think that's the job. I actually think that's the job of being a comic,

is you make people laugh. Making people laugh is baseline, right? Making people laugh at something they're sad about, that's the real stuff. Well, it's essential or angry about or whatever. Like I think I'm one, for me comedy will work to look at things differently. I think that's another thing.

You know, outside the sadness is to sort of like turn the lens, like I never thought about it like that. Yeah. But the elevation to actually provide some sort of humanity and relief to things that are really not discussed. Like I think the whole, like, you know, approaching grief, which is something everybody deals with. Nobody likes to talk about it and nobody wants it in their life, but it's an inevitable, right?

It's going to happen. Sure. So to get into that zone and to disarm it and to open up a conversation about it, I think is definitely proactive. And it's good. And it should be a purpose of comedy. I think that, like, Prior used to do that, like, in the sense of, you know, talking about his, you know, volunteering your insane life.

Yeah, that's right. And struggle, you know, to put it out for the world. Because like, whatever he did about race, his personal upbringing was fucking nuts. Horrible. Yeah, but like, but he- He was groping a brothel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All that stuff, peoria.

But you know, but all the things he got out of it were amazing. It's the determination of the human spirit. It's important. Agree. Agree. But the whole not being able to say anything, it's interesting because I feel that, But the whole not being able to say anything,

it's interesting because I feel that, like what I talked about on some interview with politics is that people are going to self-center, that the power of terror and propaganda makes people afraid to talk. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so I think that's the bigger concern of a certain type of thinking that is more dangerous and like you can't say that.

If you're saying that to yourself, that to me is the real threat. Yeah, and that's out there. Totally. Yeah, yeah, for sure. With your fucking neighbors, people at work. Sure. You know, they can't even talk about the world

cause they don't know if it's like, they can't even talk about the world because they don't know if it's like, they're gonna open up some fucking shit box of anger on someone in their life. But with this special, and to like, I was gonna tell you, I had this realization about, you know, some of our attention that's all driven by me,

is that for me, cause I have it with a couple other people, is that like, I think I'm a pretty decent guy with people, but if somebody like annoys me for whatever reason, it's not their problem, eventually I get stuck in something and then I'll get, you know, I'll say some shitty stuff, but I realized, you know, I was talking,

cause I wanna make a joke out of it, if you're that kind of person where you kind of blow up at somebody or say something hurtful, as soon as you do that with me, I'm like, oh, fuck, what am I? Why would I do that? And then for me, it's over.

But whatever you've done to the other person, who knows how long that'll go on. So there's that idea that I'm a pretty good guy, but sometimes I blow up, but right after, I'm fine. As long as I hurt your feelings for a second, then I'm good. That's like my dad, but I think that's like, you're a little bit like my dad. Like, it's a rage, but isn't that rage-aholic behavior? I used to rage, and it's more precise than that. I think, you know, what happens is, for me, is I feel like that I have a justified problem with somebody.

But the, so I guess it's Rachel Hawke in the sense that like, well yeah, but you can choose not to, you know, act on it or don't deal with that person. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's not your job to dump your problems with, like what are they gonna do? Like, let me fix that for you. Right.

That's an unreasonable expectation. That's right. I think it has to do with anger and insecurity, but rage is rage. Yeah, it's funny, like, you know, like my last special, the Old Man in the Pool, the ending of it is this thing where I talk a lot about how my dad and I never said I love you.

And I've never said I love you. I think never, I think, actually. And at the end of the special, I go, because the special's all about death and all this thematically about death. And at the end of it, I go, what I want to say to my parents, and then it cuts to black, you know, which is what happens. We don't choose that our life is in the first act

or the second act or the third act. It just ends when it ends. Yeah. And I feel like that was true with Lynn Shelton, where it's like she died. I love Lynn Shelton. Yeah. I considered her a friend, and I was in one of her movies.

Yeah, she loved you. She was one of the great people. Yeah. And you don't think she's going to fuck. What the fuck? Like, when I heard she died. Like, one of the great people. Yeah. And like, you don't think she's gonna fuck, what the fuck, like when I heard she died. Like you can't believe it. And it's like, and then you think back like, oh, what was my last interaction with her?

My last interaction was, she did a movie with you. She asked me to host the Q and A. And you said Mark doesn't like me. Mark doesn't like me, I don't wanna do it. I would do anything for you, Lin, but Mark doesn't like me. I don't want to do it. I Would do anything for you Lin, but Mark doesn't like me. I don't want it just feels toxic weird You know in hindsight. I should have just gone Lin wants this. I love Lin. I'm gonna put this behind I love when I get I know how to deal with Mark

Yeah, so anyway, but that's the thing is like you know when you whenever Whenever you know you've expressed resentment towards me or for whatever reason, it doesn't really make sense to me. I want to put it to rest and I try to put it to rest and I've spent my whole life in relationship with you trying to put it to rest. And when we do hang out, it's perfectly fine. We're both real comics and we talk about real stuff and everything is good.

I really think it's really just petty. It started in petty jealousy and then it just becomes, there's certain people that, I completely think you're a great comic and I think you're a nice guy, but there's just certain things about it. I can name all three of the people. Well, I know you have it with Jon Stewart.

Well, that's different. Oh, okay. No, it would be, it's probably you and Pete. Pete Holmes, who I love. Right, and probably Edelman's on the list, so he's a new entry. Yeah, he's great too, yeah. Well, yeah, we'll see, like I could argue, but.

We'll see, okay. But what my vibe, what my feelings are, because I'm sort of a volatile, like emotional, you know. Rageaholic. I'm not rageaholic. I'm not. You're dispelling that? No, only because I know what that looks like with me.

I have been an abusive, angry person. Yeah. I think with- You feel like that's behind you? The abusive and raging part, yes. Yes. Yeah, and one of the ways that I do that is if I can't manage those kind of emotions, I will detach from the person.

I know it's my problem, but I don't have to have the certain people in my life. I don't think I rage at you. I don't rage at my girlfriend. I don't really rage anymore. There's certain things that trigger a certain resentment in me, and I'll get mean for a few minutes, but I'm not going to... I used to scream. Oh, wow. So there's none of that. So if you're putting me on the spectrum of rageaholic, I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna, like I used to scream. Oh wow. So there's no, there's none of that. So if I'm, if you're putting me on the spectrum of rageaholic, I'm very like, I'm way, just at the, low end.

Low end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that. But in terms of like, you know, stepping up and doing things and doing things with Lynn and making those moments, having regrets about the moments. Of course, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It actually harkened to something, I don't know,

I've been working on myself in the last 10 years, which is just realizing, oh yeah, it could just go away. Yeah. You can just die at any moment. How old are you? 46. Yeah, I'm 61. Yeah.

I think about it all the time. Yeah. And then there's the other thing that I conflict with is it could go at any time. And then there's the other part of it, which is maybe at my hand. Oh my God. That's a funny joke you have in here. Blink too dark or that you're not going to kill yourself with a bat. Yeah.

It took so long to orchestrate that bit. Yeah. To figure out the physicality of it and how many times I should get myself in the head. That was one of the great moments. You know when a joke comes to you and you're like, oh my God. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That line, you're not gonna look at it bad and think,

I'm gonna kill myself. Totally. I had that with, it's funny with this special, people have said that to me about my urban air bit. Oh yeah, I wish I knew more about that place. Oh okay, like trampoline parks and how they're so fucking dangerous and crazy. And I've had a bunch of comics be like, I can't believe you got to that first. Yeah, oh yeah.

You know what I mean? You hit something and you just go, like, wait, no one's done this? Great. No one's touched trampoline parks for kids? Fantastic. Did you do research? Oh yeah, I did research. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'd been to so many

of these fucking birthday parties, so I'd been there multiple times. Well, you realize that the pool of comics is gonna be dads who talk about their kids. That's right. So that limits it. Yeah, that limits it. Yeah.

No, I can't stand that. I had an issue with, I told them I wouldn't talk about, but now that we're talking about anger, I got angry yesterday at someone we both know for very specific reason. And the issue with jokes being out there forever, on your Instagram and everywhere else,

is that there are people that don't know that they've glommed it. Right, sure. And it's just out there. And now there's a whole generation of comics that watched me when they were kids. Yeah. And so all of a sudden I see one of my jokes surface.

Yeah. Partially or all of it. And I have to be like, well, you know, that's your joke, but you haven't done it in 15 years. Right. But now this guy's doing it. So what do I do? What do you do?

You know, if it's- Yeah, I had someone come up to me at the cellar recently and they're like, oh, I'm a huge fan. You know, they're a comic. Yeah. Yeah, I came up on your stuff or whatever and then I looked on their Instagram

and I saw like one of my jokes. Yeah. It was like one of my early jokes. And it was almost word for word. And I said to my wife, Jenny, I go like, that's the flow of this whole thing. At a certain point, you become the person who people came up on. And even, I'm not saying that guy stole a joke, but it's in there. It's in the brain. But that's it. But like, so like, how do you, it's not even the act of forgiving that. And

we understand it because I've seen it over and over again. And there are some areas of observation that are pretty commonplace. Yeah. And it's like, but if you have a unique twist on it that you know is yours. Yeah. But some jokes are like, you know, there are some things you talk about. And that's one of the reasons why I decided to talk about myself exclusively, is that no one can take that. Like if you're looking at the world, then you're at risk.

That's what Lucian Hold, that's what Lucian Hold, you know, who used to run the comic show, taught me. Oh really? He was one of the first people, I was like, probably in my early 20s, and he, I was talking, doing observational comedy about the Teletubbies, Mr. T and A-Team, all the big topics. And then he goes, he goes, if you talk about yourself, no one can steal your jokes.

And I started talking about myself. And he's a great piece of advice. The best. I don't really have. You know what happens when you get older and you do a few specials, though, you tap yourself out. You're like, the well. Then all of a sudden, the well's all filled up.

Well, Sedera said that on my podcast. He goes, you go, when you're starting writing, you have the most stories, because you have your whole life, but you're not that good at telling stories. So then as your life goes on, you have less stories, but you're way better at telling the stories. Sure, oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. But do you find, like, how'd you handle that guy doing your joke? I was actually fine with it. I was just so weird. You didn't do nothing. I didn't do nothing. No, I didn't do anything. No, I don't, to me, it's like, I don't think of it as,

things are from from things for me I'm like this is great. I'm doing great. Okay in college not in life in comedy Yeah, yeah, I mean like I have the struggles that everyone has of being alive, but your stories Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I but my comedy it's like I Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I, but my comedy, it's like, I, I write these shows, they're really specific. Yeah. And people show up live to see them. Yeah. And then I'm able to make comedy specials from them. That's amazing.

Yeah. Like, what else could you want as a kid? So you're grateful. I'm grateful. That's good. So I don't, when I see someone crib a joke, or maybe they don't realize they crib a joke, I go, yeah. Well, I get, here's what happened in the two cases for me is someone brought it to my attention

that there was this kid doing a joke I did literally in 1989. That's really funny. And it's out there. And this kid, maybe he could have seen it when he was a kid, I don't know. And it was the same setup. And someone sent me a clip of him

doing it from Instagram. So I DMed him, I said, look, I did that joke, but I don't care, but I'm just telling you because it might be brought to your attention. So like, if someone's gonna be like, yeah, it's a Mark Maron joke or whatever, that might happen, but I'm okay with it. Yeah, that's nice.

Yeah, so I think I handled that well. Yeah. But the other thing, yesterday I did not handle well. And it was sort of the same thing, but if somebody has a pattern of taking jokes from different people, that becomes a more difficult situation. It's funny, I remember when you had Robin Williams on years ago. That was a great conversation.

And you talked to him about it. And it was very clear that he had not, in my opinion, that he had not intended to lift jokes, but that he, in some ways, was a sponge of comedy. I saw how it happened. Yeah. Because he saw me at the Throckm of comedy. I saw how it happened. Yeah. Because I did it, he saw me at the Throckmorton once

and I did this bit, it was a big bit about the demon, you know, the sober demon bit. It was like, you know, it used to be like, you know, let's go out, get some blows, some pussy and some booze. And then it's like, how about some ice cream? You know, so, and he, you know, he came up to me after the show, he goes, Ooh, that demon

is a way. And he starts riffing on my version. Yeah. And he's riffing on it. I'm like, that's how it happens. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. That's like one step away from, you know, it's mine. No, I get it. Yeah. I mean, I guess there's nothing we can do about it. Yeah. I remember one time Mulaney when he was writing on SNL, Yeah. Texted me, Hey, did you ever do the polar bear drinking Coca-Cola as a bit on an album? Yeah. It was a tag he had written for me on tour with me, like years before. Oh, interesting.

I was like, yeah, it's on To Drink Mike and it's on this special, whatever. He's like, oh, I won't do it. But he had written it. He had written it, right? So like, I said to him, you can use it if you want. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care. But like, I do think like there is a degree

where we're doing all these brain exercises as comedians and trying to put out more and more and more stuff to figure out what's funny to us. And you do come across the same ideas. Of course, parallel thinking's real. And like, when I did this special, I had this one joke, it's pretty much a one-liner, funny to us and you do come across the same ideas. Of course, parallel thinking is real. And like when I did this special, I had this one joke, it's pretty much a one-liner, but I had a sense

that not that I took it from somebody, but that someone else was doing a lot. It might be out there. Yeah, so I was like, fuck it, and I didn't do it. Yeah. And then it's funny, because Rock gave me a tag for a joke that really worked well. And then I ended up, it was part of the joke that I took out of the special.

So that's gone. Melania had a great tag in my special The Good Life, which is, my wife is a poet, I'm a comedian, together we're a sculptor. Such a simple joke. That's a good joke. Isn't it great? It kills. And does it like like when someone gives you a tag and it really works well,

don't you ever get that moment where you're like, fuck, why didn't I? Totally. How is he just so good at that? Totally. Yeah. But that's what, next time you're in New York, you gotta come on Working It Out, my podcast,

we just work out jokes. But I think you'd like it, because I think you love jokes. Well, I do. But you work out jokes in real time. Yeah, I do. But they become jokes. You real time. Yeah, I do. But they become jokes. Oh, I know. I get it. When I did the special, I had a really simple, everyone-can-love joke. It's a cat joke.

And I had a tag, but it wasn't quite right, and I knew it. It worked good enough. It basically has two punch lines. There's the turn and that gets the laugh, but then there's another beat there that was required to kind of close it up. And the thing I had there was okay, but literally three days before the special I was on stage and it was delivered to me. And that's how, that's the way I work. That's what makes it interesting. That's nice. I don't know where it comes from. It's from the gods.

Yeah. Most of my stuff is. That's like the Bob Dylan documentary Scorsese did years ago where he goes, I didn't write these songs, God wrote these songs. And it's like, it's kind of nuts through a certain lens, but through another lens you're like, yeah. Where does it come from? I know it specifically with me

because I work through talking. I don't write it. Yeah, yeah. And don't write it. And I believe that it's like if you're a funny person and you put yourself in a position where you have to be funny, which is a comics job, but literally corner yourself. I've got a funny enough idea that'll get a few laughs,

but I'm hoping that by doing it, it'll evolve. And where the hell does that come from? Yeah, yeah. That's right. I mean, it comes from your brain at the moment, but it didn that come from? Yeah, yeah. That's right. I mean, it comes from your brain in a moment, but it didn't come from your brain sitting there going, hmm. Well, it's fight or flight meets jokes.

That's right. Yeah, so we're doing your podcast now. Yeah. Yeah. Do you come to New York a lot? I'm gonna be there. I saw you there at the cellar. I was there to shoot the special.

Oh, is that what it was? No, you were there. A couple of weeks ago. Yeah, I saw you and then before that, I saw you at the cellar. I was there to shoot the special. Oh, is that what it was? No, you were there a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, I saw you, and then before that, I saw you at the cellar. Yeah, I'll be there for Tribeca in a couple of weeks. Oh, that's cool. You're gonna movie?

Yeah, there's a documentary about me. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it's all right. I mean, it's good. It's a little much from, it's a lot of me. It's a lot of you. It's almost too much me for me. But it talks about the Lynn and the COVID and building an act after that.

And then it became more expansive. You can come see it if you want. I'll come see it. If you can do it. What do you mean if I can do it? Well, I don't know how much you are that interested in me. I am interested in you. So the one thing I didn't know about watching this special, and I don't know why I didn't know it, than you. Ha ha ha.

So the one thing I didn't know about watching this special, and I don't know why I didn't know it, I probably knew it because we've done, you've done this show like more than anybody for a guy that doesn't get along with me or I don't get along with. Um, but like we grew up with Dr. Dads. Yeah. And it's a very specific weird thing.

Oh, it's a very specific type of dad. Yeah, but my dad was similar to yours, really. And Conan did, too. What kind of doctor was his dad? You know, I'm not sure. My dad is a retired neurologist. Yeah, that's a big one. It's, no pun intended, it's a heady profession. It really is like, it's a smart group of people.

Oh, yeah. My dad was more of the kind of a, I guess the working class doctor in a way. He was an orthopedic surgeon. So it's like hammers and saws, screws. Yeah, yeah. Cutting people open, chopping away. Totally. Yeah. It's weird, like only as I get older, and I feel like you probably had this with your dad, although I did hear you say I love you to your dad a second ago

So yeah, but I do feel like there is a degree of the emotional withholding is not unrelated to the job Where he's compartmentalizing what is really extreme and he's dealing at work my dad. Yeah people with Parkinson's Oh, yeah people with you's, people with MS. Really, brain disorders is a fucking hell. And so then he comes home and he's just trying to sit there and read his war novels. And meanwhile, I'm projecting on him that he's this mythological creature of perfection in my life. And it's like, he's just a guy. He's saving lives and being a good dad and being a good doctor. And like, you know, it's funny, people would come up to me, you know, as a kid, they'd

go, your dad's a great doctor. And I go, oh, thanks, you know. And then he'd be like, no, for real, like, I've gone to a lot of doctors. He's a really special, you know, and it's like, I just didn't see that side of my dad. Like, it's just not what I saw. And like, I had a lot of anger about that for a lot of years. And it's, I talk about this in the special, but it was really only in the last few years where I got to understand like, you gotta ask questions.

You gotta be open to that these people are flawed, that your parents are flawed and just ask questions. And also you don't know them. Right. You don't know them. You fucking just don't know them. I do a bit in my special about that, about like, you don't know these people

Yeah, I mean they had whole lives before you they had lives outside of you That's right, and have they have people in their lives. Yeah, you'll fucking know them. Yeah. Well my joke about dementia, which is pretty funny I say like, you know If you can let go of who they were and just sort of deal with what is, there's a lot to be gained. And I say, like, you know, the filter goes away eventually. And the statute of limitations on what they should and shouldn't tell their kid, that's gone. So.

That's very funny. So if you have unresolved issues or questions, just reach into that bingo cage of memories and see if you can pull out the missing piece that'll make you a whole person. That's right. That's a great one. I talked to my mom and dad yesterday,

because they haven't seen the special, special drops. How is he? On Monday. He's in rough shape. I mean, he's like a tank. His constitution. How old? 84.

Yeah, my dad's 86. Yeah. It's up there. And it's like, he had a stroke, you know, 15 months ago, it was really extreme. He's almost died about six or seven times, you know, where we took him. Like, he was in the hospital last week, wasn't eating, you know, was throwing up,

all this awful stuff, awful. And so I was talking to them yesterday, and they haven't seen the special, you know. And, but then their neighbors started telling them, oh, we saw Mike's special and it's beautiful and it's a love letter, Vince, to you. And they're like, but it's also challenging. You know what I mean?

So they kind of have the- You're a good doctor. Right, right, right. They had a, my parents had a vibe of what the special was yesterday when it was on the phone. And I go, Vince, I call my grandparents Vince and MJ. My parents had a vibe of what the special was yesterday when I was on the phone. I go, Vince, I call my grandparents Vince and MJ. You do?

Yeah. I go, Vince, I think you'll like it, but it is challenging. Some of it's about your stroke and my dad on speakerphone goes, I don't like the personal stuff. Yeah. And I go, Vince, I go, you can't choose what your child's gift is. Oh, that's interesting.

And he goes, that's true. And he laughed. And I was like, for me, that was peace. Yeah, oh, that's good. Cause my dad, you know, when I wrote about him in my book, now he gets a kick out of it, but I went to the mats with my dad. Like I pushed him as far as he could go.

And you know, I saw what was at the core of him, which oddly is fuck you. Oh, interesting. Yeah. It was a hostility. Yeah. Yeah. It was just something.

And so I think that's at the core of every narcissistic personality. Sure. Because they can't totally narcissistic personality here. Sure. Because they can't totally reveal themselves to themselves. Right. So you're going to get the fuck you. You know? But...

What's the correlation though? They can't reveal themselves to themselves. Well, because I think... They're not open to themselves about who they are at their core, which is a narcissist. If you push them to go there, they're gonna hold out all the way to the end. It's gonna come at you. Yeah. But look, as people get older,

and I think you, I don't know if you're seeing it, cause it's not necessarily in the special, is that they are half your brain. And whatever their shortcomings or flaws were, that wired you. Half of it at least. So at some point you have to reckon with the good parts and the bad parts about your dad that you possess.

Right? And then you have to say like, all right, well these are good things from him, and these are the bad things, and a lot of times those bad things will kind of be a struggle and they'll take you down and they're built to fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you had that same experience.

Oh, but anyway, my dad, when I wrote about him in my book, he, he was furious and it was graphic and it was, you know, and, you know, he was like, um, very angry and, and I didn't do the same thing you did, which was more, it was a better way to phrase it. I said, well, look, it's my story too. This is my story. Yeah. That like I own this story, my side of it as much as you do and you're part of my story.

Now you can choose and I'm not sure if I was as careful as I could have been at a respect. But fundamentally, I didn't respect him at that point. So we had this fight on the phone. And I said, well, he was worried that some of the stuff I said would have implications for him professionally and that his family was mad and this or that. I'm like, what do you want?

You want money? Yeah. And he goes, yeah. And I go, how much? He goes, $100,000. Yeah. And I said, I'll give you five. That's good. Have you done that on stage?

Probably. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good bit. Yeah. Malaney saw me do some shit about my mother that never made it special, you know. But as they get older, you know, and he's softened and and the love you thing, when I told my mom,

and they're not together, that I think dad's got the beginning of dementia, she said, how can you tell? That's funny. Because he was always- He's the same. Well, he's detached. Yeah, yeah. That was always the joke. I get that.

That's what I was thinking. Yeah. He'd be at dinner, but he wouldn't be there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I don't know what that was. It was a joke at the table. Like, we'd be talking and he'd be like off in space. Yeah, my feeling about my dad was always,

he was, I was the youngest of four. Oh yeah. And so, and I was the oops baby. And so I don't think he wanted to be a dad much anymore. Like the way my sisters describe it is like, they would go on trips to Boston and they'd buy raincoats and they'd have a day out in the town.

I was like, I didn't get shit. I got nothing. I was just alone. I was off what they call now a free range kid. I was just out with my friends. Yeah. It's kind of, I don't know. It was done.

But at the same time, as I get older I just go like You know, oh my dad was a tough dad, but also like compared to what yeah He didn't beat the shit out of me, right? You know what I mean? Like there's people who have a real heart you know sure but that but detachment and emotional neglect is is You know not as traumatizing in events as physical abuse but in the big picture is Is pretty mind fucking true, you know, like I think that the you know comparing trauma and the effects of it

You know some some trauma is easily identified. The other stuff is a little more insidious. I know what you mean, I just feel like it was never. Sure, you had money, you had good, you know, you had good, you had everything you wanted. You valued education. Yes, yes, yes. There were things like that where, you know, my dad doesn't have, you know, he'll die when he dies, today, tomorrow, in a year.

Yeah. He's like, he'll die with no money. He spent all his money on educating his kids. Really? Yeah, for real. Like he always- That's funny, cause my dad's broke too. Yeah, he really valued that. Like he, cause he grew up in Bushwick

in an Italian neighborhood in the forties. And he had, he had nothing. And then he got a scholarship to a Catholic school, Xavier in high school in Manhattan. I sent him to my dad, yeah. Really? Well, he grew up with, Catholic school, Xavier High School in Manhattan. That's the same with my dad, yeah. Really? Well, he grew up with, you know, his mom was a teacher. Yeah.

His dad was like a bookkeeper. Yeah. And he was a valedictorian. My dad's dad worked in the subway tunnels. Yeah. He was an electrician. He'd go into those dark tunnels after they dynamite the tunnels.

Yeah. And then he'd rig wires into darkness. It was crazy. And so the idea that my dad ended up being like a doctor and had a lot of green all this stuff, it's bananas. And so I don't, weirdly like at this age, I don't begrudge him any of that stuff because he wasn't, when my dad would rage,

it would be like I say, you know, in the show, he'd be like, where are my goddamn keys? You know, and it'd be like, we gotta find dad's keys. Yeah, I know that one, yeah. He gave me that, like I was on edge. The whole family has to snap into it. Yeah. Where's that ski hat?

Oh, here we go. Yeah, and so, but it wasn't at me, it was like, it wasn't like, goddamn you, Mike! Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It wasn't at me, so I don't know. But it definitely scrambled the family into action.

And then you never knew what you're gonna be dealing with when he got home. Oh yeah. It's like dealing with somebody with anger issues or self-centered kind of the megalomaniacal thing of a doctor in general, is that it's as erratic as an alcoholic. Yeah, you're right.

You know what I mean? And my dad was bipolar, I guess, but you just didn't know, and you barely saw him, so you wanted to engage one way or the other. And it was always before family trips or something, where the fuck is, you know? Yeah, sure. So you always enter these family experiences just afraid.

Well, it's funny, I think the way I started writing a special two years ago was, what can I teach my daughter? My daughter's eight. She's starting to ask questions that are hard. That's the way I started it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And about a year into it, dad had a stroke. I was like, okay, now it's about how do I relate to my dad, how do I relate to my daughter? Yeah. But in, but you know, in some ways the irony of it is this way that I look at my dad as like this

mythological all-knowing creature, that's me now, right? Yeah, for her. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like I... We hope. Well, no, but you know that that's what it is. You are, yeah.

At least for a period of time. Yeah, sure. And then, and so I had to explain jokes to her the other day. Because I was like, this special is going to come out, millions of people are going to see it, and I talk about you and mom and grandma and grandpa. And like, so the way that I write jokes is like there's something real that's true and then there's something silly and then something real and then something silly. So I explained to her like the ballet joke.

I'm like, we went to your ballet recital and mom and I are crying and crying because she doesn't have it, you know. And then I was like, no, we're crying and we're hugging her. And I go, you were so fantastic. And then you said, dad, you would say I was fantastic, even if I wasn't fantastic. And I was like, you are so much better at logic than you are at ballet.

And I go like, so it's a joke. Did she see it? I showed her some clips. So I was like, she took it pretty well. She took it pretty well. She goes, I like the true jokes better. And I go, well, the good thing is the special ends on true. And I go, it's silly, true, silly, true, but it ends on true.

Yeah. And I think that that's the important part. And I think the audience knows which parts are silly and which parts are true. Right. And so I'm hoping that that reads. She's 10. It's like, I'm hoping that reads, but I'm also like,

you know, I'm concerned. Well, concerned in the sense that, like, she's 10. It's like, I'm hoping that reads, but I'm also like, you know, I'm concerned. Well, concerned in the sense that like, at this age, when you showed her that joke, did it hurt her feelings? Yeah, I think she didn't love it, but I also think like, she loves the joke where, for example, she goes, someone comes up to me on the street

when I'm with her and goes, your dad's a great comedian. She's like, all right. And I go, Una, what do you think when people say stuff like that? And she goes, it's a waste of my time. I go, that's the meanest thing anyone's ever said to me. And I know Bill Burr.

And she's like, she loves that. Cause she's like, cause she gets the joke. She is the, she tells the joke. It's a waste of my time. She gets to do a shot at you. She takes a shot at me. And like, and like, she, and in, you know, truly,

she really does love that and gets why, what's funny about that. Well, I guess the question is that, does it, is there the possibility that implants in her that like, I am not good enough? Well, that's the concern, but I think, fortunately, I wouldn't have done it about, like, for example, like she's really good at swimming.

Yeah. And like- So she gave up ballet. Ballet's behind it. Yeah, that's like, yeah, I don't even think she remembers it barely. Oh, that's good. You know what I mean?

It's like she was seven. Oh, okay. It doesn't really feel present. Sure, sure. Like I wouldn't have done it about a thing that she does now. That she really cares about now. So I didn't do anything about swimming or whatever.

Oh, good, good. And, but I'm not doing anything about her for her teenage years. I'm literally, and I told her that, I go, I'm not talking about you for the next 10 years because you have your own journey and growth and like this is your story to tell. Well, that's the tricky thing. And that's the lesson with my dad and also the lessons that I've done jokes about women I've been involved with. Is that when they say to you like, could you maybe not do that?

Yeah, yeah. And then depending on what's more important to you, which is a real question, comedy or this, you kind of navigate that. But to what, and also I had a girlfriend who I wrote about and she said, her thing was, it's like, well, I don't get a public rebuttal. That's right.

So that's another thing you gotta take into consideration. That taught me a lot. Oh, completely. And because we want, you know, we're selfish. We're like, but this is my story. You're in it, but it's my story. And they're like, yeah, but I don't agree with it. Right, sure.

So then what? Yeah, which is why I'm taking some time off from autobiographical storytelling. Are you? Because it is loaded. Yeah, no, I'm taking a few years off from it and I'm writing, the thing I'm writing right now is my next movie I'm gonna direct.

It'll be another small indie, like Sleep Walk With Me or Don't Think Twice. It's actually a lot like Don't Think Twice. It's about a group of friends. Oh, okay. And it's at a wedding and it's just that kind of. So you can live in other people a little bit. That's right.

And no one's one for one. So like, Don't Think Twice, for example, a lot of times people will be like, this is about Mike doing improv. And it's like, no, it's not. I wasn't really an improviser. I did it in college or whatever. But it was funny, because yeah, you ever see Don't Think Twice? About the sketch group. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, it was funny, because yeah, did you ever see Don't Think Twice?

About the sketch group. Yeah, the improv group, yeah. It was Keegan-Michael Key and Gillian Jacobs. Yeah, I think so. I thought you would like it, because it is about jealousy. It's about like what happens when someone gets, in this case, like a fake Siren Live Keegan-Michael Key got, and then everyone else doesn't.

It's about like what happens in life when we realize it's not fair. Yeah. It's actually one of the best things my mom told me when I was a kid. She, I remember saying to my mom, "'It's not fair.'" Someone got something.

She goes, "'Nothing's fair. Life isn't fair.'" I think that's one of the best things you can teach a kid. Totally. Nothing's fair. Yeah, but also the other side of it is, is that we feel that because we feel we deserve something, but we don't really know if we're right for the job or what they're looking for.

Are you talking about like the SNL scenario? Sure. Yeah, yeah, sure. Or any scenario. It's like, yeah, like somebody guy gets elevated because of you and you think like you deserve that, but perhaps the person that was giving that job to somebody had a reason. Oh, 100%.

You know, and then you could say like, well that's fucked up. It's like, yeah, but it doesn't matter. So that's the unfairness, but it's not a meritocracy issue. Not at all. It's funny, like doing that movie cured me of jealousy because I fucking wrote this movie for two years,

three years. I directed it, I edited it. Like it just was, and then at a certain point I was like, these characters are fucking insufferable. They need to get over themselves. Because the same thing you're saying, it has nothing to do with them in a certain way. Who gets what has kind of nothing to do with you.

And everybody, the jealousy is driven by your own insecurities and what you think you're entitled to based on your sense of justice or self-righteousness that could be, you might be talentless. Yeah. You might not deserve that job at all. Yeah. But you can't see that.

Yeah. So like, and it's hard to learn that lesson. Yeah. You know, like to just go like, well, it wasn't for me. Totally. Yeah, it wasn't my opportunity to get Yeah, it's and that's that takes that takes some real humility because like if you're if you're ambitious and you want something and

You know you believe you deserve it. How can you like when someone else gets it go like well? He's probably the better choice Totally and it's interesting, I was watching, I was on a show the other day with this guy, Arthur Brooks, he's like a Harvard professor who wrote this book on like number one bestseller on happiness. Oh good.

And he has this really basic, super smart guy, really basic thing that I'm like, I'm gonna teach my daughter this, which is when something challenging happens, write down two things, and one of them is write down what happened and how it made you feel. And the second thing is write down what you learned. And then go back to it six months later.

And usually the first thing you actually don't care about and the second thing you learned. Yeah, oh, interesting. Well, that kind of happens when you get older where you think like, well, how did I give so much of a fuck about that? It's crazy. Like, it consumed me for years.

Oh, for sure. And then it's like not even there anymore. It's not even that it was stupid. It's just like, it was kind of like nothing. Right. Well, you know what's funny about, you know, you're 61, 60, yeah. Chris Rock said to me recently,

he goes, you get to 60, because he's 60 also, I think. He goes, you get to 60. He's like, there's not many of us comics left, like who are doing it. Yes. You know, and- Who aren't huge.

Like the guys who like can, you know, go out just on a whim and make $50 million, they seem to never go away. But the guys who, who like, you know, like what happened to that guy? Just on a whim and make 50 million dollars. They seem to never go away, but they got But the guys who who like, you know, like what happened to that guy? I don't know. No, there's a lot of that Totally. There's a lot of that even now in my 40s. Yeah, where the other guy is gone. I don't know. Yeah It's a weird field in that way. I think a lot of people die I mean, that's the thing that's painful is like Geraldo died Hedberg died. I mean like in their prime. Yeah, Patrice died

I mean, they have so many people die. Well, yeah, but like that's not different than any other world I don't know. I don't I Grown to argue this sort of like well comics are all fucked up or there's more drugs and alcohol and like really more than cops More than firemen. More than plumbers? I don't know, show me the numbers. Yeah, I do want to see the numbers. And also show me the ratio of comics versus how many working comics there are versus the ones that died

young, I think tragically, is something. But that happens too. But yeah, people go. And then there are those comics where you're like, whatever happened to that guy? And then out of nowhere you'll be like, oh, he's working down the street. Yeah, but yeah, people go, and then there are those comics where you're like, whatever happened to that guy? And then out of nowhere you'll be like, oh, he's working down the street. Yeah, yeah, totally.

That's insane. Also, sometimes people get really good later. Oh yeah, me. Well, you're a good example. Yeah, that's true. You were good in the 90s, you're great now. I'm better now. I think you're better now.

Well, I wasn't formed, I was just angry. I was the rageaholic. Yeah, you're a rageaholic. And I used to think like, well, this is what everybody wants. But you know, true rage versus funny rage, different thing. True rage versus funny rage, okay, sure. Yeah, if you're really an angry person and you don't have control of it, that's not great. You know, even if you watch old Hicks stuff, I mean, his anger was utterly alienating,

totally justified, but not entertaining for most people. Whereas somebody like Burr is a cranky, angry fuck, but he's got a populist slant on it, and he's got a slant on, you know, the dynamic between him and his wife and he's softening up a little bit. But that the funny cranky guy or the funny angry guy is a rare bird. Yeah, the ones that are good at it. It's great.

That's right. Yeah. But yeah, but honest rage, not great. It's a little disconcerting. Yeah, I get that. But no, I feel like I am better now. I think you're better now. Thanks.

I think you've become less of a caricature of yourself. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think one of the things that annoyed me early on was that you were kind of leaning on this character that was part of you. Our characters are always part of us. But it didn't have a lot of depth necessarily. Yeah, I think when we're starting out,

we're emulating the people we admire. I remember even talking to Geraldo one time I was opening for him, and he goes, dude, when I was starting out- It was a tell. Yeah, he goes, I was doing a tell. Totally. He goes, I have TV spots where I'm doing a tell,

and it pains me so much Yeah, you know because he admired a tell there's a fucking generation of people who admire to tell a lot of a tells There's a lot of a tells running around and then even now I would say that There are people who are influenced by him, but I would say Sam Morell is definitely in the teller Mattel Yeah, yeah, and then like and then there was tons tons of headbergs for a while, much headbergs. And that was a little more specific and it was always annoying. Cause you know, a tell, like what you learn from a tell

is like incredible joke structure. Oh, amazing. And he said, by the way, talk about someone who's better. I see him, when I see him at the cellar, he's on fire. He's always been on fire. I mean, it's just one night's different. I mean, this guy's got a fucking brain. Yeah, yeah, it's like a, it's like an abacus.

It's like an abacus that's on fire in his brain all the time. A joke abacus. That's right. He's constantly putting it together. That's what it is. But Hedberg was a disposition. So when people took Hedberg, they had to do his kind of- An escalator can never be broken.

It can only become stairs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, but see, I think you've, in the last few specials, I guess probably since Sleepwalk with me, you kind of came into yourself more. Thanks, man.

Yeah. I think it's like, I think everyone's doing that though, right? I think the thing that I have in common with Geraldo is that It was filmed early You know, I mean like I got a few things on TV and then so people can see me as a collection of my influences Yeah, before I find myself. Yeah, I found myself Yeah, I wonder if that's I find that I'm more aware of my influences now and I when I watch old stuff of mine It's weird because it's not I never I'm always kind of myself

except when in my first year or two yeah then I was I had an attitude that wasn't really mine yeah but like most of the time I'm like well you know you're not there yet but I can see me in it yeah I don't really know exactly who my influences are because they happen in moments. I know if I do, there have been beats where I'm like, oh, it's just like a Gaffigan beat. Oh, interesting. Or there's a way, I've become more clear about my homages

or where, I track where they come from when I see them. Like that bit at the end of End Times Fun, which was this operatic bit where Mike Pence is blowing Jesus, I knew in my mind, like this is to honor Hicks. Yeah, yeah, sure. Because it's structurally not exactly what I do anymore,

but there was a time where that kind of, that type of anger flow, and I'm like, this is for him. That's nice. Only I know it, but there was a time where that kind of, that type of anger flow. Yeah. And I'm like, this is for him. That's nice. Only I know it, but. Yeah. But why?

Who do you think your influence was? Early it was Hedberg. Yeah. I had the like, um, boom ba boom ba boom. Yeah. But where does it, like, cause I talked to this guy and I, you know, and I, I don't, I put it together before, but where does Andy Blitz factor it? With me?

Yeah. Oh, I never saw Andy Blitz. Oh, because you're- Other than like every now and then at Luna Lounge I'd run into him. But I didn't know, we just look alike. No, he does a thing. It's a lot slower than you. But I think that like, you know, the kind of like, well, you know, like there was a

thing but you never absorbed- No, I think he's funny but I don't know his work at all. Oh, you know, the kind of like, well, you know, like there was a thing, but you never absorbed it. No, I think he's funny, but I don't know his work at all. Oh, you didn't absorb it? No, no. He was a writer at Conan. I was an intern maybe. Like I think we crossed over.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we have a similar talking style. That's what we have. And we have similar like hairline, we have a look similar. But yeah, no, no. So was Hedberg mostly? Hedberg, I would say was my biggest influence.

Steven Wright was a huge influence. Really? That was the first one. So Steven Wright was, I saw when I was 16 at the Cape Cod Melody Temp. My brother Joe took me and it changed my life. But neither of those are really the style of jokes you do. No.

And then what happened was I did The Moth 2003. Oh, right, yeah. And I was like, and it was interesting. You talk about like finding yourself. It's like, at The Moth, you have to be yourself. Yeah, that's what Luna was for me. Yeah, you have to. There's no version of The Moth

where you see someone's story and it's not them. Like they direct you, they drama-clurricate. It was the first time where like I truly had like, Catherine Burns was my director and she kind of taught me how to teach, tell an eight minute story. And it was- Oh, so that introduced you to long form.

Yeah. And then I did that. And then that introduced me to Ira Glass, This American Life. And then he did a bunch of stories with me. And he really taught me how to tell story like and then how to You know find Bob and Tom stuff too, right? Yeah, Bob and Tom was huge because they let me do my journal Yeah, which was like this piece I wrote which is like a travelogue and I would call in and so yeah

There were a lot of there were a lot of people that moved you towards long form long form Yeah, and also like I when I was in college, I wanted to be a screenwriter. I just wanted to write movies and plays. I didn't even want to be a comic. I just wanted that. And then I got out of college, and I was like, oh, then no one wants that job.

No one has that job. No one's offering that job. It's a weird thing when you realize from your college naiveté that, like, no one's waiting for you. Oh, yeah, no. If you decide like, no one's waiting for you. Oh yeah, no, if you decide this world, it's all on you. Oh yeah. To push it out there.

So let me ask you, like earlier on we talked about the parts of your father that you're infected with. You don't really address that in the show. It's interesting, it's sort of, and I'm not sure I do either. Yeah. Because like it's sort of, and I'm not sure I do either. Yeah. Because like it's this whole other zone of possibility. Yeah, sometimes my brother Joe calls me Vince Jr.

Really? Yeah. In what situations? I think because of my intensity. Yeah. You know, I think that the thing that's confusing to people sometimes when they know me versus they see me on stage is that on stage I seem relaxed

and off stage I'm pretty intense. I'm not mean, but I'm intense. Yeah, I think maybe that was one of the reasons that I sort of was resentful. I'm like, this guy's not being honest. But I can explain why. It actually makes sense. Because I've thought about it a lot.

Ira Glass brought it up on my podcast recently. He's like, in real life you're super intense, and on stage you're really relaxed. And I go, Ira, it's because on stage I'm relaxed. Because it makes sense. I'm in charge. You have complete control. So in my life I'm like fucking flipping out of control.

And I'm like, I gotta hold on to something. And then I'm intense. On stage, it's just me talking. If there's a heckler, I have a line, I can handle it. I've been doing this a long time. So it's like on stage, I'm pretty happy. Yeah, cause you decide.

Yeah, I find this sometimes like at parties, people go like, oh, comedians, like I met this comedian at a party, he wasn't that funny or whatever. Yeah, but we this sometimes like at parties, people go like, oh comedians, I met this comedian at a party, wasn't that funny or whatever. Yeah, but we suck at parties. Yeah. Comedians suck at parties because it's a bunch of people talking to each other, and I'm like, no, no, shut the fuck up, I have the best story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not about me enough. Yeah, but not even that, it's like, it's not about, you know, someone being like, you-

You amateurs. Yeah, you amateurs, it's like, oh, one time I sleepwalked through a second story window and they're like, oh, let me tell you my sleepwalk, sorry, no, no, no, mine's better. No, it's gonna be better. I've worked on it for years. Yeah, exactly.

No, that's interesting, so, cause I feel that too, but it wasn't always that way. I mean, I think I got comfortable on stage where you have that moment where you realize like, oh, I live up here. Yeah, yeah, I live up here. And, you know, when you're about to go on stage, at some point you're like, I'm not nervous at all.

That's why I always tell young comics, I go like, get on stage anywhere, anyone will let you be on stage. You were in Sleepwalk with me, you played like the mentor comic in Sleepwalk with me, but it's like, I performed, I hosted a Lipsyn contest at a college, I did open mics, I did coffee houses. I would show up at bars when I was in college in DC, where it was an open mic where they didn't want comedy. And I would sign up and then I'd fucking go up.

People would be like, what? Yeah. Like that's how you get okay. Overcoming those fears. Yeah. And like, but God at the beginning, you're just like for weeks, you're like, I gotta do five minutes. Oh yeah.

For weeks. Oh yeah. I'm freaking out. But what, so intensity, but are you an angry guy? I don't think so. Okay. I don't know. You didn't get that from your dad? You don't blast off? I don't think so. Okay. I don't know. You didn't get that from your dad? You don't blast off?

I don't know, no. That was the thing that when I was a kid, I was like, I'm never gonna do that. I remember my dad flying off the handle. I was like, I'm never gonna do that. I never yell. You get asked, like, you know, all the people who work on the producers of my podcast and my wife and my daughter are like, I do not yell. It is baked into me. It's possible it's all staying inside and feeding into

a tumor that's forming in real time, but it doesn't come out. Yeah, I used to do a bit about that. When you stifle anger, where you're like, God damn. Then it goes inside you and it creates tumors with your parents' faces on them. Oh my God, that's fucking funny.

It's funny because I had a joke about my anger going inside and forming into tumors until I die. And Ira was like, take that joke out. And I go, why? And he goes, I don't think it's true. I think it's like an old wives' tale. Like, I think it's like, it's like. Oh, he had a problem with the science of the joke?

Yeah, with the science of the joke. I was like, all right, I did take it out though. It's funny how similar that joke, that's a good parallel development example. You and I basically had the same joke. So yours is funnier. It's a joke. The pictures of your family.

I took it one step into joke land. Well, no, mine had a joke too. I just forget what it was. But it was like, yeah, you had a funny one years ago that I loved, which was the chain reaction of anger. It's like this guy cuts you off, and this and this, and it all somehow ends up in the Middle East.

People remember that joke. That joke's great, that's a classic. I talk about my first jokes. That's a classic joke. Yeah, it's good. Why are you going, ugh? Yeah, yeah. Just take it as a compliment, thank you.

Oh, thank you. You're welcome. No, I like the joke, but it's funny that there are people to this day remember that joke. It's great, yeah. I don't know if I even did it on Letterman, maybe I did it on Conan, maybe I did it on my first Letterman.

Well, you were like a stand-up comic when stand-up comedy was in mono, before it was in stereo. Sure. You know, when there was 10 comics. Yeah, yeah. And then, oh, I was in, there was ten comics. Yeah. Yeah, and then yeah Oh, I was in there was ten comics at the top and then 20 in the middle and then 50 at the bottom And I'm somewhere in the lower tiers, but yeah, I was around. I don't think there was still only a hundred guys

Yeah, yeah, totally, you know now there's like a thousand. I don't even know how many yeah, it's a lot Yeah, so do you do you find yourself? What about your mom? What'd you get from her? Well, like I said, like my mom was like nothing's fair, you know that yeah, she had this practical She has a really good Catholic Very Catholic. Yeah, so she and and when I you know, I talked in the special, but I went to see the Pope last year Oh, yeah, yeah, a bunch of comedians. Yeah, it was like rock and Colbert and kind of weird wasn't it? It's interesting But like you have that group get chosen Pope Francis. of weird, wasn't it? It was interesting.

But like how'd that group get chosen? Pope Francis. I wasn't expecting to be on that list. I have no resentment about that. Oh, good. Good, good. I think that it was some version of Colbert and the Vatican. Yeah. Like emailing back and forth a group of people's names. That's how I understand it. Cause he's a very out Catholic. He's a very out Catholic.

Yeah. So the Pope says that guy, he's on board. Yeah, but my mom was very Catholic. I was very Catholic. I talk about it in the special, I was an altar boy. I was just full, full in. And you know, my mom, I think the biggest thing I learned from my mom is to laugh at yourself. My mom is like always willing to lean into the character of herself. And I just love that. I just think that's a good attitude. Well, I guess if you lean into, you know, if you're a believer and you know you're flawed

and you're imperfect and you use Jesus to relieve you of that, that there must be some acceptance of who you are if you have that relationship with Jesus. Yeah, that's an optimistic take. I hope that's true. You don't wanna overuse Jesus. No, you don't wanna overuse Jesus. To continue being a bad, but.

My mom is one of these people, and I think in some way, I see this in my daughter sometimes. It's like, my mom will be friends with anyone who wants friends. Yeah. You know what I mean? She's of service. She's of service.

It's astonishing. That's real churchy? She's of service. She's of service. It's astonishing. That's real churchy shit. Yeah, she'd be like, my friend Ellen was saying blah, blah, blah. I was like, Ellen who? Like, this person I met at the grocery store, you met someone at the grocery store? You know what I mean?

But like that's what my mom is like and I'd like to think I picked up a little bit of that from her. She's kind. Oh, that's nice. And that's what the end of the special ends on, is all we have is these small acts of kindness. Yeah, I think that's probably true.

I try to be kind, sometimes it's a little late. Like now, this conversation? We do fine. Yeah, we're fine. We are. I don't have any, you know, like whenever we do it, I have to reckon with the fact like, you know, like, hey, Marco, what are you so hard on this guy for?

What the fuck is it really? But, you know, I find that like my struggle in relation to other people or how I see it, it's just sort of the same thing as nothing's fair. That there was a time where literally you were doing one of the shows at the Bleaker Theater. Right, and you were in the basement, yeah. Yeah, and to me that was like, what the fuck?

How does, like how, you know, and you're younger than me. Well, I knew how it happened, I'm out of my mind. And you weren't. And if you were. Or it's controlled. And if you were, that's right. But it was all based on this sort of like, he's this palatable person that's able to wrangle this thing into these shows and get all this attention. And I'm down there yelling. Yeah, I get it.

So it was really all rooted in that. Yeah, I get that. So it was really all rooted in that. Yeah, I get that. But I'm letting it go. I let it go every time we hang out. Every time we talk. You keep coming here. True, it's been a while though. Yeah, well I think we went through,

I mean there was that thing with Lynn that was kind of upsetting to me. And I don't know why I hold onto things really. But I'm always good with you. Yeah. You all right? Yeah, I'm good. Yeah?

Yeah, I feel like, yeah, I'm good. What? No, I got nothing, I got nothing. You don't, there's nothing to process? No, I just feel like whenever you talk about me on the show, like people texted me last week and you talked about me on the show, like people texted me last week, you talked about me during the Nick Kroll episode. Did I?

Yeah. Oh. You're like, I have a thing with him or whatever. Yeah. And you were like, do you guys all hang out with each other? Yeah. You know, that kind of thing.

Yeah, jealousy. Yeah. And there's, I got all this text messages just being like, Mark's talking about you again in the show, and then we talk on the phone and it's nice, and then it's like, there's a premium episode where it called, Mike Verbiglia called me, and then we, you talk for 45 minutes about a 20-minute phone call we had. Yeah, I felt bad. And the phone call was nice.

But no, but I felt bad because the whole thrust of that was like, I'm mad, and then like, I say a thing, I don't feel great about it, and then you text me, and like oh fuck now I got to really deal with it and by the time that happens I feel bad about what I've done. And that's it's just this dumb thing that I got from my father is like you focus, you get angry, you say some shit and then like it's out of you but the component of it that's missing is that well you hurt someone's feelings and you know but the component of it that's missing is that, well, you hurt someone's feelings, and that was the arc of that. So now you're fine, but it also puts me in a position

to where like, yeah, dude, I'm sorry, to defy you to accept me. And I think that was my whole dynamic with my old man. And I used to do that joke on stage. I do this little thing where I push the audience away, push them away and then pull them back and pull them back, then I push them away just to see if I can pull them back. It's a little dynamic I call dad.

Well, my version of that actually, and this circles back to your question, are you angry? It's like I have this joke from Old Man in the Pool, not a joke, it's just a piece of writing from Old Man in the Pool, where I go, I write my journal every few nights because I find if you write down what you're saddest about or angriest about, you can,

I forget what the line is, like, if you're saddest about, or you're angriest about, oh, you can start to see your own life as a story. And at a certain point, hopefully you can encourage the main character to make better decisions. And that is why I journal. The things in my journal are fucking wild. Like they're fucking angry, they're spun out.

But I don't. You don't have to live in it. Well no, I live in it. No, I do live in it. But it becomes a story once you write it down. It becomes a story. So a lot of, like a few years ago I did a special called The New One and it was all about how I never wanted to have a child

and then all the reasons you should never have a child and then how I had a child and how I was right and then how I was wrong, and that's kind of the emotional landing point of the show. And it's a lot, like, a lot of that show is me fucking writing in my journal for all those years of feeling like I'm completely left out

of the mother-daughter relationship. I'm the fucking third person who no one gives a shit about. I'm not really part of this thing. And a lot of that stuff ended up being really good jokes. But at the time, I was angry as fuck. I was furious. Well, yeah, so even with the dynamic, and Nick's another guy. Dude, I had to stop following him on Instagram.

Yeah. Like, I mean like- Nick Kroll? Yeah. Wow. Because I, and I've, you know, he's different. I think he's got a thicker skin than you really. Oh, okay.

I don't know about that, but sure. Yeah? Well maybe it's a funnier, thicker skin. Nick is funny. Yeah, I've known Nick since he was 20 years old. I know, he told me that. I don't know about that, but sure yeah, well, maybe it's a funnier thicker Nick is funny. Yeah, I've known Nick's is 20 years old and I know he told me he's so fucking he was always funny Yeah, that's the thing about yeah, he's funny his bones totally gifted comedian Yeah, yeah, so I had to stop following him on Instagram because I got tired just looking at his gilded childhood I like it so far like you know it's just like so much love around him. And they're all- He really does have a lot of love.

I know. And it just kept coming up. I'm like, I just can't fucking take this anymore. Yeah, yeah, too much love. This guy's got everything. And I think if I can be honest with you in terms of like why I, it's all me, dude. You know, whatever this thing is with me and you.

It's all me and I know that. But I have a total inability to see my place in the world. And I'm not very good at gratitude. So the phantom limb that I live with is that I feel that people are doing better than me or they're being treated better than me. They're being received better than me. It's fundamental insecurity.

But we're sitting in my house. I'm doing OK. I'm feeling good. I'm doing everything we should be doing. I'm doing a special. I'm acting in movies, but there's still part of me that's sort of like, well, fuck Burbiglia and the show, that one man show. I'm like, I don't even know what that is,

but it's not real. And I'm sorry that I act on it. I appreciate it. And I won't talk shit about it. It's always like, and I know it doesn't make me look good. And I know it's just, it doesn't read as anything other than what it is. Mark is at times a resentful, insecure, jealous cunt,

and I don't know why he is that, because he's doing fine, and it doesn't serve me. I get it. Maybe this will be the episode that finally buries it. Yeah, could be. For me. It's my own fucking problem. You know what cured me from jealousy

when I wrote Don't Think Twice? Was realizing, I started to analyze jealousy. I was like, I had this realization. You can't be jealous of something someone has. Or that's not you. You can only be jealous of, you can only truly be jealous if you would trade your life

one for one with that person. And if you think about the person you're jealous of, you're like, no, I would never fucking do that. Never trade my life one for one with that person. That's interesting. Yeah, I find that like a lot of times I'm jealous of things that I wouldn't even be right for. They have nothing to do with me.

It's really a fundamental insecurity that I guess I wrestle with a lot. Still, I don't talk about it as much. But yeah, it's not attractive. How's your sister, Gina? Gina's good, Patty's good, Joe's good. I've been very blessed with like, hashtag blessed, siblings that are cool.

Yeah. And like taught me a lot about life, art and comedy. Gina, it's so funny because like I knew Gina when she was Nina Rosenstein's assistant. Yeah, in the 90s. Right, and I was doing, I was at Comedy Central doing short attention span theater. And this whole arc of, Nina is the person, she's my person at HBO, she's the one that pushed through my last two specials.

She's really cool. But like I knew her when I was a kid, and there's been this whole life and all of a sudden I land back with her and it's so amazing, it's so good. I love doing the special at HBO, because when I was coming up, that's all there was. That's all there was, yeah, that was the big thing. And also it's like a curated place, you know?

You're not gonna, your special's not gonna drop and then three days later you're like, I can't find it. Is it on the homepage still? Totally. Yeah, yeah. I feel like I've been given, I feel like the media universe has been evolved in a period of time where my comedy went from not having a home, like it never quite fit with HBO,

because HBO was probably more edgy, and it never quite fit with Comedy Central, because what I do is more theatrical. And grown up. Right. And so I never really had a home until Netflix came along, and now I'm just like, oh, this is perfect because there's no commercials, thank God,

and it reaches everybody and the people who need to find it, find it. And then those people are fucking super fans because it's like, so what I'm doing is really specific. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I find that too, specific differently. But yeah, and then when you start to, it's interesting when you start to build a fan base

and you see them out there, and like I look at them and I'm like, how are you people, the people, like, you're gonna manifest what you honestly are. Yeah, of course. And mine are all, they're all grown up people, they're good people. Yeah, yeah.

But some of them look much more well adjusted than me. But I'm glad I entertain them. Yeah, I always have that when people come up to me in Brooklyn and there's always, whenever someone comes up, it's always like this pear-shaped middle-aged ogre who's just like, I totally relate to everything you're saying. I'm like, oh great, I look like that guy?

Yeah, yeah. It's good. Inside. Inside. All right, good talking to you, man. Thanks, man. This is good, thanks for having me. There you go, we did good, thanks for having me.

There you go, we did okay me and Mike. Again, his special, The Good Life is now on Netflix. Hang out for a minute folks. You failed beyond the horizon in search of an island scrubbed from every map. You battled Krakens and navigated through storms. Your spade struck the lid of a long lost treasure chest. While you cooked a lasagna. There's more to imagine when you listen. Discover best-selling adventure stories on Audible. Time to check on the skies!

It's another sunny day in Calgary. Forecast calls for high levels of economic activity. Late afternoon we've got a burst of potential in a place ranked North America's most livable city. Tomorrow, blue sky thinking in the blue sky city should hold steady. And the outlook remains optimistic throughout the week. Hey people, for Father's Day we posted a new WTF collection for Full Marin listeners, this one featuring dads. It's got stories about fatherhood from Matt Damon, Bill Burr, Jack Gallagher, John Glazer,

Hank Azaria, Ron Funches, and a recent visit with Barry Marin. Do you remember this dog? Yep. You do? Penny. When did you have that dog? Yep. You do? Penny. When'd you have that dog? Oh, I don't know.

But I remember him. Penny, Penny, Penny. Look at this. Eleanor. That's your mom, right? Yep. How about this one? That's grandma. Hida. Do you remember her? Yeah. Was she a nice lady? Yeah. Did she talk much? I don't remember her talking. Was Barney her husband? Yeah. Was he a character? I didn't know him. You didn't? He was dead already? I don't know him. You didn't use dead already. I don't know I remember I love this picture. It's been

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