WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1654 - Jordan Klepper

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Jordan Klepper and his Daily Show colleagues find themselves in the position of calling fascism out for what it is while also still finding comedy in an increasingly unstable world. But one way Jordan deals with the firehose of information is by going out into the field, like he did for his most recent special report, MAGA: The Next Generation. Jordan and Marc talk about his findings, but they get into his upbringing in Kalamazoo, his transition from math major to improv comic, and the understanding of show business he learned from family cousin Tim Allen. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers. Except with Fizz. Switching to Fizz is quick and easy. Mobile plans start at $17 a month. Certain conditions apply.

Details at fizz.ca. I'm Joshua Jackson, and I'm returning for the audible original series Oracle Season 3, Murder at the Grandview. Six 40-somethings took a boat out a few days ago. One of them was found dead. The hotel, the island, something wasn't right about it. Psychic agent Nate Russo is back on the case, and you know when Nate's killer instincts

are required, anything's possible. This world's gonna eat you alive. Listen to Oracle Season 3, Murder at the Grandview, now on Audible. What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's called WTF. What's happening out there? How you holding up? Freaking out? Are you freaking out? Or are you like, yup. Yup. This is what happens. What are you doing? Are you just fucking spiraling into fucking panic and fucking despair? Yeah, that's reasonable, but on another level, this is what happens. This is what

happens. This is a rite of passage for authoritarian leaders to just go bomb shit. I mean look There's no nukes in Iran But if you remember Leading up to the Iraq war another unjust war at least there was a process Months and months of a congressional process to get Approval despite it being a bullshit undertaking and a bloody one, there was a process. This one, the process was, oh look, he posted on his thing.

That's what authoritarians do. This is what it is. It's funny that a lot of the articles and stuff, you know, they don't talk about a constitutional crisis anymore because we've been in one since the beginning of his presidency. Pretty straightforward, authoritarian action. This is the country's baptism into real authoritarianism. I mean, I've been saying this for months, but it's pretty clear now for you people hanging on to the idea of a democratic hope that that's not where we're at.

And that window is closing because with an action like this, I look, I don't know if there will be reprisals. I don't know what the consequences are. All I know is that we have an authoritarian leader who's just going to bomb shit when he wants to. I would argue that sending the troops into Los Angeles was more upsetting and more foretelling and in plain sight what we're headed towards as a country. Yeah, you know, just call the troops in to any American city

without congressional approval, without the functioning of one of the three branches of government, without any checks or balances, just fucking send the troops in. Bomb. Bomb the shit out of somebody Send the troops in. Bomb. Bomb the shit out of somebody. With no process. Just a guy and his impulses and the fucking idiots he's surrounded by. The sycophants, the collaborators, the straight up fascists.

I mean that's, I don't want to fuck up anyone's Monday morning but this is it and for all the people that Voted for him just because I don't know I get a good feeling. I like his I like his spunk Yeah, that's a double entendre but you know All these people that were just sort of like fighting for their free speech to say the R word to shit on disabilities.

Yeah, well, I hope this works out for you. All you people there like, yeah, just he's got a good good. I like his moxie. I like that guy. Well, welcome to the new military dictatorship that puts a fucking nail in the coffin of democracy for good. Yeah, I hope that's what you were hoping for. And all these anti-wo comics are still doing,

you know, like I don't, I see them around, still doing trans jokes. It's like like you won. The trans people have no right to live the life they want. In some states it's legislated. In others it's just based in fear. Same with women. Anti-woke policy has crumbled any destroyed, any sort of pathway to try to give the vulnerable and the marginalized a leg up in the world under this umbrella of anti-woke, which was the big to do with all the comics.

I'm anti-woke. Well, now it's policy and thousands of people are living in pain and fear and unable to live a free life in America and get the care that they need. Hope those jokes were worth it. I mean, when do you stop doing the jokes? I mean, you won, you broke it. You broke a lot of people. When do we stop doing the jokes?

Yeah, all that DEI stuff, that threatening, horrible sort of idea of trying to make democracy work. It's all gone. You did it. You did it, fellas. You did it with your...you helped out with those jokes. It's good, right? It's great. Here we are on the cusp of a military dictatorship with a rabid fascist culture war. Those jokes were worth it though. It's gonna be great, right? That you can say those things

and so many people are compromised and in pain. Yeah, and all of those jokes about immigrants. Yeah, it's awesome, right, you guys? Just seeing people ripped apart, seeing all that pain cause it feels good for you guys, right? This is what you wanted, half the population in fear and in pain and unable to live a free life in America, just so you guys aren't uncomfortable with people that are different from you. Awesome. Anyway, good morning. Good morning. Today on the show, I talked to

Jordan Klepper. He's the co-host and contributor on The Daily Show. He's known for his Finger on the Pulse segments where he goes out in the field. He's done several TDS Presents specials for Comedy Central and his latest is called Jordan Klepper Fingers the Pulse, MAGA, the next generation. He does a good job with it, and I kind of got into a little bit of a deeper conversation with him about what's happening. And you know, certainly in light of this unconstitutional act of war by our authoritarian leader, I don't know if it'll play the same way, but We talked about it. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. When you run your own website like we do, life is easier Thanks to Squarespace. We never have to worry about updating the site or dealing with bugs. Squarespace handles all of that plus

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trial. And then when you're all set to launch your new site, use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash WTF offer code WTF. Oh my God. And then you got this whole Christian nation business. Can you think of something more boring than that? Oh my God.

Christian rock, Christian jazz, Christian movies. Oh, all the amazing things about the creativity of the human spirit shut down all the beautiful woke stuff that made culture and creativity interesting and and enlightening being just shut down and again I just really want to reach out to those anti-woke comics who are at the forefront of pushing this new culture through. Hope it was worth it. Now everybody's got to be boring like you so you're comfortable Next week

Monday's guest is Mariska Hargitay. She directed a new HBO documentary called my mom Jane, which is awesome It's a spectacular documentary. You can watch it on Mac starting this Friday, June 27th, and I highly recommend you do. Then you can hear me and Mariska talk about it next week. Okay, that's happening. I went to a screening of the film that I am the star of last night in memoriam. I think I've talked a bit about that here. Sharon Stone was there sitting next to me. Kit was on the other side.

That was exciting. But I gotta be honest with you. I hope the film finds a home because it's a very touching film. And I'm not like the kind of guy, the projects I'm involved with oddly, because you know who I am in terms of how I think and how I feel and the intensity of it. And sometimes it's heavy.

And I just seem to be involved with the intensity of it, and sometimes it's heavy. And I just seem to be involved with a couple of projects, three actually, maybe four. Huh, and my special too, five, you know? A lot of things going on for me at the end of democracy. Not gonna personalize it though, you know? Comes when it comes, right? Your moment and the end of freedom.

But the movie in memoriam, I get very focused on watching myself and I think I did a pretty good job with this thing, but it's incredibly moving. I mean, it's a real, it's funny, but there's that balance of humor and sort of, I wouldn't say tragedy, but yeah, I mean, it's a real, it's funny, but there's that balance of humor and sort of, I wouldn't say tragedy, but yeah, I mean, but no life. You know, the painful side of life.

You know, it's a guy who has cancer, who decides that he's gonna not get treatment so he can try to get into the memoriam montage at the Oscars. He's an actor that might not have the resume for it, but through the course of that, he develops a relationship with a daughter that he had no relationship with. And I gotta be honest, the story itself

and the fact that I did okay really delivers this very weighty but beautiful story about being human, about surrendering to love, finding something to live for. And it's a... I'm not a guy who talks about storytelling a lot, when people sort of say storytelling is what we have, and it's what makes us human. And it turns out it's kind of true.

You know, the same thing with Stick, you know, whatever you think of that show, it's got a lot of heart, and it's about, you know, whatever you think of that show, it's got a lot of heart and it's about, you know, a found family of people that have their own problems and their problems together overcoming obstacles and, you know, through, you know, struggle and kindness and moving through, you know, heavy feelings and sadness and trauma and whatever. But these are, they're probably kind of needed now. I find myself watching a lot more movies

that sort of elevate the human spirit, even if they're dark. I just rewatched Succession, but there's something to it, because we're certainly not getting reconnected with our humanity by looking at our phone or seeing what's going on in the world. And many of us don't spend time with other people

in terms of really kind of locking in and feeling that. So sometimes storytelling, if it's done well, is a way to reconnect with your humanness and humanity in general. And I'm doing the bad guys, you know, that's a cartoon. And that's, you know, fun for the kids and the Bruce Springsteen movie, which is about an artistic journey

through personal darkness. And then my special in August which runs the full spectrum of political, personal elevation of the human spirit from over trauma and grief. Yeah, I mean, this is what I have and this is what I'm taking in and I guess it's okay. Well I hope you're hanging in there and I think you'll enjoy this talk with Jordan. I mean it's a pretty upbeat but pretty heavy. His latest TDS Presents special MAGA the Next Generation is available on Paramount Plus, Comedy Central and on YouTube and this is me talking and meeting for the first time, Jordan Klepper.

Hey Canada, especially all you fans of thrillers, supernatural mysteries, and immersive storytelling. There's an all-new installment of the hit Oracle series, Oracle III, Murder at the Grand View, available now exclusively on Audible. Once again featuring Joshua Jackson as the narrator, the suspense-filled plot follows agent Nate Russo as he investigates a deadly mystery in a haunting abandoned island hotel. And if you're new to the Oracle series, now's the perfect time to start. Binge all three parts back to back. If you're a fan of shows that give you chills and keep you guessing, this one's for you. Suspense, intrigue, thrills, all for your ears. Start listening to Oracle 3 now, only on Audible. You know, I'm getting a lot of congrats on, you know, good run. Right.

But we live in a culture where nobody quits anything if they can keep going. Mm-hmm. Because I have to wrestle with this thing. I mean, I think we've done great work, but there is something about stopping that's rather dramatic. Yeah. But it's a genuine congrats on a good run. It's a genuine congrats.

Yeah. It is, it is funny even walking up here. Yes. It's like, I don't want to treat this like it's a funeral. Yeah, no, exactly. Like there's something that's dying. I heard you say like it's okay to end things. Yeah.

When you announced it. I come from the Chicago world and one of the wisest Chicago improvisers, Noah Gregoropoulos, used to talk about in terms of relationships. He was like, there's too much drama put on the end of a relationship, and it being seen in a negative light. And he refused to look at those. He was like, these things end,

they're beautiful parts of your life, why can't we celebrate those elements within that? Sure, and that's the pitch you have for the person you've just hurt. Exactly, yeah, so this is, I'm trying to be kind to you here Mark. You end in failure the fact that you don't have a podcast means you're no longer culturally relevant and so congratulations on your death in the industry. I appreciate that and all those thousands and thousands of people that

relied on me twice a week to keep them afloat are now gonna resent me. Yeah. And and and think I'm an asshole. Yeah. For walking out are now going to resent me. Yeah. And, and, and think I'm an asshole for walking out on them. You left them. Where will they get content now, Mark? Well, that is the, the, that is the primary burden of it is that, you know, 80%, you know, look, I'm, I'm okay. We've interviewed everybody, everybody. And also there's, we live in a, a culture of yammering and there's just, it's just non-stop fucking talking everywhere. It's just crazy. It's crazy. Like, I don't know what my algorithm does, but you know, within a few reels,

it's like three to four white dudes behind mics talking about, you know, shitting their pants as adults. You know, and laughing about, you know, come and this that and the other thing. Yeah. Well, that's where we live. It's just an entire country full of amateur afternoon drive time radio jocks. Yeah. Do you feel responsible for making it look so easy? Actually, if I'm being even more,

I don't want to be probing. This is your world as you slowly die in this industry. Yeah, I trust your instincts. So you go ahead and probe. Well, I feel like a lot of people are talking about you ending, and they are pointing out like your natural curiosity that by all accounts, you're not going into this. You didn't go into this as a way, as a platform.

You went into it as a curiosity to find out things about people. And also to kind of reintroduce myself into the world or maybe even for the first time. Yeah, it was a personal kind of desperation even to connect, there was no way to make money. So, but yeah, I mean, and then the follow-up question is where are you gonna put that curiosity now?

Well, that and also how do you see, how do you see that, did that evolve? Did it devolve? For me? For the medium? For the industry. Well, I mean, yeah, I think it obviously evolved, but not unlike anything.

It's almost like, what's a good analogy? It's like, how do you, like the introduction of photography, you know, at the beginning of photography, it was clunky, you know, the exposure took a long time and, you know, a lot of, but there was only a few people doing it, right? And then at some point, it's declared, and it's arguable, an art, right?

So you have art photography and you have documentary photography and there are, there's a criteria and a context to which to appreciate that in art history. So at the point where everyone can own a fucking camera, how do you maintain the context of what is good and what is art? If everyone can fucking do it. And on that level, how do you protect the bar from lowering to a point where everyone just gets used

to a certain thing that kind of goes in and triggers a little feeling or this, that, and the other thing. So in a world where everyone's got a fucking camera and everyone's got a fucking microphone, the argument there would be like, we did this great work. There's no reason, you know, we can go on. I mean, the medium has shifted, the finances have shifted,

but you know, I possess what I possess. My producer possesses what he possesses. But there comes a point where there's diminishing returns in terms of, you know, relevance, uniqueness. I think it'll always be unique. And also the fact that, you fact that it's not easy. And we put a lot into it and my producer works in a very specific way and we do audio and

we really craft these things. And at some point after 16 years is a good example, someone's going to go like, I think I'm done. Yeah. There's a big chunk of life here. Yeah. And we've got this great catalog, and we did some amazing things, and we spawned.

I think what became my major contribution is a certain style of honest engagement. On the other side of that, we've unleashed an evil on the world. Yeah, I think if I look at this like social media, you're sort of the Arab Spring social media. You came along at the point where it's like, oh, this can be used for good as a way to further humanity. And now we have whatever X has become as a way to take down and topple government. That's right.

And also like arguably, Arab Spring, not a success really. I guess, yeah. If we're gonna take the metaphor all the way like Congratulations You did what you could It's interesting. We'll talk about the history books. Perhaps not kindly. That's the other thing I mean, what is it? You know when all these people, you know, especially progressives who talk about that? Well history will show it's like not if it gets hijacked and rewritten. You gotta talk to the people writing the history.

That's right. Yeah, and there's only, some people are really talking about changing the books and figuring out how to morph that mystery. Exactly, every time I hear that, like the history books, well, I'm like, which books are you talking about? The ones that are gonna be rewritten or diminished or disappeared?

Yeah. The new history. Yeah, the new history. Yeah, the new history. Talk to the Native Americans. Yeah. How has that history been so well articulated over the course of the last 100 years? Well, yeah, just the fact that you're not teaching black history in schools.

Yeah. But on the argument of DEI. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's too crazy in terms of all of it happening at once. Like, I did a bit in my special, it's like, how do you even protest? Do you just make a sign that says, please just stop?

This is crazy. Slow down, please. I just woke up. Can we all just take a breather, please? Count to 10 and then have a response? Oh my God. But I guess that's part of the whole plan. But I don't know what's going on at The Daily Show

in terms of how this is discussed. At what point do we stop talking about this as sort of a two-party democratic problem and just address the fact that there's an authoritarian coup happening and culture is becoming fascist? When does that language change? Like, when do we call it what we say as we say it?

I mean, I think at The Daily Show, we'd like to think we're doing that. I mean, we're always struggling with the fact that our job is to find whatever comedy we can around that. Sure. And it's a fire hose of information. Right. I think the struggle I sometimes have when we approach it

is like the game plan, the authoritarian game plan is the firehose of Bullshit the let's do all this to distract you from the dark shit that's happening Yeah, right. Yeah, like we can have an Elon fight that's happening and not talk about the big beautiful build and what it's pulling away And also but like why doesn't why don't you have a segment every you know? Week on what Russ Vaught is doing? Well, we gotta sell Pepsi, you know, Mark? Let me tell you, as much as people love good Russ Vaught content,

it's cable TV and- You got advertisers. But I mean, I do think from a creative standpoint, that is, beyond the advertising element, is a question we have every frickin' week. Like, we can put together the saddest, darkest fucking show you could possibly imagine. Almost every single day. And it's curious now because the setup we have,

we have like John on Monday, and then one of us takes the rest of the week. You kind of are working in concert with like, you know, curating the vibe of a week. It's not all just about the yucks or the darkness, but it's like John can make an argument on Monday. Let's have like an editorial argument. And then let's go more news of the day,

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, with some potential second acts that have deeper dives and arguments. But also sometimes we've had two big days that have gone way in on Elon, that's talked about USAID and how they've ripped and people are dying. And that's hard on an audience.

We still got an audience there who's telling us how they feel. And this audience feels, they're raw. No, I know. I was performing on the road for a year and a half and I went out of my way because it did feel like community service after a certain point,

because all you can do is contextualize. There's no, you know, you can't be up there going, well, here are the solutions. I mean, you can blame the Democrats, you can blame whatever, but this is a full court press of authoritarian bullshit that's very well orchestrated. And it's being done very intentionally, and so little of it has to do with Trump Because he said dumb shit Like there's never a bulldozer and they're just walking that's right But he's like, you know, he's a new kind of puppet He's a puppet in the sense that like he all he wants to do

I think ultimately is be the only important person in the world and have all the money Mm-hmm, and they're just gonna let him do that and then give him, here, say this, these are the executive orders. Like there's hundreds of executive orders. You think he even knows? No. No. When you're dealing with a situation

where you can't provide a solution, you can't provide a way of looking at it that is educational and enlightening and funny, but it really becomes this sort of, that is educational and enlightening and funny. But it really becomes this sort of, this thing where it's sort of like, like there are moments where I'm like, I don't think these snark bullets

are gonna really pierce the problem. Right. You know, it doesn't normalize it. It does give people a little breathing room and enforces a point of view. But but ultimately we've got to get them out in the streets. Well, yeah, I don't... I think, yeah, like people approaching it like is this the solution? Do you have the solution? Right. The answer to that is no, we do not. It's not an activist show. Yeah. We don't provide solutions. Yeah. We

provide comedy and context through our own outrage and bullshit detectives. And information. And information, right? Ways in which to like draw attention towards stuff. I got to do specials on like Russian interference in the election, what was happening in Estonia. In a world where you're like, not a lot of people talking about Estonian politics or Hungarian politics. I don't think they're talking about much of anything. And I think they're totally reactive day to day

on this or that. And like what was interesting about the new special, I think it's the newest one, the MAGA Next Generation. Well, you know, like I really wasn't hip to Charlie Kirk. I mean, I kind of knew the name, but after I watched it, my phone must have been listening. So now I'm getting a lot of Charlie Kirk. Yeah, you're welcome.

Yeah. But I mean, when you see that side's youth, you know, versus whatever the left youth movement is, which is, you know, mostly focused on Palestine, but do you, because my girlfriend was like, you know, eventually they'll grow out of it. Like when you see, when you're watching these two young women who are sort of shallowly kind of regurgitating talking points, do you think that like maybe it's a phase

or that the fix is in? Well, I think there's a potential for it to be a phase. I think I have true empathy for those 22-year-olds, those 18-year-olds. I see myself in that. I think there's a potential for it to be a phase. I think I have true empathy for those 22-year-olds, those 18-year-olds, I see myself in that. I think they are shallowly just repeating the things they've heard. Now, where I get worried is the 30-year-olds

who are praying on the 20-year-olds. It is the Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk comes to a campus, and you remember what it's like on a campus. People are excited, they're looking for energy, for vibes. Community and community. They want community and purpose. It's what I still want,

I still fucking searching for every single day. On a campus, Charlie Kirk shows up and it's a scene. What he has beyond it being a scene and a community and purpose, he's got free shit that he's handing out to people. He's got hats and suddenly you put that on and you control somebody or at least look like you're part of a group.

He's online. These kids have seen him constantly. He's in their feed. His bid is fighting, debating. His bid is debating kids on campus. He gets plenty of clicks for that. People are showing up to his events because one, they want to see this thing they've seen online or they want to engage with him. Yeah. I think a little

bit of the trick that he pulled is you have a lot of conservatives showing up you have a lot of moderates who just want to show up and see what the thing is. Yeah. Then you have a handful of liberals who show up who want to fight him. Yeah. Now what I got is a lot of young somewhat naive conservative kids who were shocked at what they saw. They were like, I've heard about the illogical, angry, hysterical left, and I didn't believe it until I saw it here.

Oh, this is part of the trick. It's not only Charlie Kirk trying to sell you the Maga spirit. He's also trying to put on a show and sucker young, left-wing kids to come up, yell at him, where he can calmly act like the adult in the room, and put on a show of left-wing hysteria for these other minds who are watching that

and walk away thinking, I don't know, that seems like the more rational, level-headed person is this 30-year-old who's being funded by a bunch of old millionaires to give these talking points. To radicalize college campuses. Yeah, and I think that's where I see that taking hold, because these kids, I don't see them drawn inherently to a MAGA ideology or a right-wing idea

I see them drawn to whatever fucking works in the attention economy. They're giving a pathway Yeah, it's it's a it's a devious one and I'm pretty cynical about what it is But it's effective in this space sure the left is a harder time Negotiating that space and not that they should come at it from a point of like propaganda or winning over these minds, but they should be able to articulate what is compelling about a vision. Because inherently, Charlie Kirk ain't the coolest thing on a fucking college campus. Well, no, it's like, you know, I see all these people like, Republican youth or the new punk rock or we're going to make it hot.

I'm like, good luck. You know, I mean, while you've got all these 30 year old right wing guys, you know, doing jaw exercises and getting Turkish hair surgery or shaving their eyebrows off like that's hot. That'll give you a game. Yeah, there's such an insecure masculinity that's on the right that has been lifted up. It's completely wild in that it is insecure and the solution that they're providing for

to, you know, lifestyle solutions they're providing to sort of ease that insecurity makes them, you know, bigger clowns. Yeah. And it's not going to serve them unless they really are able to brainwash all women completely. Yes, exactly. And they're working on that. I mean, I don't know how the trad wife business is selling. Do you?

Have you looked into that? I don't. If you have any, I mean, I would invest in it right now. It feels like I'd put money on it right now. Really? Because I went to Texas A&M and there definitely was a, there's a Christian element to that school and they talk about traditional values. The thing that I find that I can relate to from it, if not traditional values, like there

was a study about what algorithms were feeding kids and a lot of it was Ander Tate and far right uber-masculinity stuff. This Dublin study that like, what if we create a generic 16 year old? What do we sell him? And they sell all this toxic masculinity. But the other thing that they were selling were things like neo-stoicism. Oh yeah, I know a guy that's into that.

See, I'm one of the guys who are somewhat into stoicism. Ryan Holiday, smart guy in stoicism, he articulates Seneca, Marcus Aurelius. And at its core, what he's articulating is like a pretty moral blueprint for how to succeed, self-improvement, if you will. And I think like selling self-improvement to young kids is something that they will fucking buy.

Now, some of that is tied to these old, weird traditional values. Well, that's interesting because it used to be, you know, I think there was a time where youth culture did not need self-improvement, that it was like music exploration, you know, finding things that were kind of would turn you on in terms of like literature or art or, you know, there was a freedom of mind. But now I guess they're all floating and, you know, all the music is kind of the same. And now these guys come on campus with an ideology.

They're like, I can talk these things. Yeah. And, you know, I just, every day I think about what made me what I was in terms of what my brain is and what was appealing to me. And I was coming, I was growing up in sort of the crashing wave of the 60s and mid 70s. And it was all about like, you know, kind of blow your mind with shit that is given to us by You know inspired weirdos. Yeah And now they're just trying to you know diminish all the weirdos and make freaks. Yeah

I mean you've got those are better than freaks weirdos are definitely better than freaks Yeah, you probably also had the invitation to spend more time with your own thoughts and other folks I think like these kids- You didn't have phones. You didn't have phones, and I hate to be that guy, but I remember when I was doing a show, when I was hosting a show, I got so caught up in waking up

and immediately looking at my phone, looking at the news, and I was like, I'm letting somebody else's opinion get in before I even have my own. And I'm like, I know better. I'm smart enough not to do this. Yeah. If I'm 18, like to not have a moment of silence to figure out what the fuck I care about.

Yeah. That's a dangerous space. It is. And so this is good. So there's no hope really. There's really no hope. There's... Come on, find the weirdos. You know what I'm saying? You bring up, I mean, I know how much you love music. Like, there's this conversation around, like,

where are these folks on the left? Who are these masculine men on the left that kids can look up to? And I think there are compelling, interesting figures there. I think, do you know the band Idols? The band Idols. Like, I think there's a punk rock element that still exists that is still progressive, kind, masculine, violent, sincere, like, uh, gender all over the place in a way that is compelling, young, I think it on stage to a degree, there is no organized

left. Yes. There's no foundational ideology. There is, but Bernie speaks it. That's it. I mean, if you can teach kids how to care about other people and create a living wage and healthcare for everyone, that is the practical left. All the other stuff around the left are boutique issues that make people feel better about themselves.

Yeah. Right? Spot on. So without the organization, there's no, you know, people, not sadly, I mean, people who are, you know, lefty or Democrats or whatever, a lot of us are just sort of like, we kind of just want to live our lives. We're okay, we can make decisions for ourselves and we care about other people.

We take care of what we can. We send some money to whoever. And we hope it doesn't get too shitty because then our grandpas are gonna have to go protest like they did in the 60s. Yeah. Because I'm not going out there. I'm too fucking tired.

So when we talk about this idea that there is some answer to them, I mean, we tried that with Air America, you can't, you know, there should be a whole series of jokes around like, okay, there are three leftists sitting in a room and there's one problem, you know? Like, right? So you can't wrangle that shit because, you know, within seconds it just becomes an

insulated arguing culture. Yeah. But debate is supposed to be part of it. Debate is supposed to be a part of it. But whatever Charlie Kirk's do on campus is not the nature of debate. That's a trick. And all these kids are, I see, I saw Cedar go at him and he did a good job because they're relatively uninformed and if they are informed, it's with, you know, completely ideologically bent, mostly

with enough information that is correct, but the core of it is usually not. Yes. But debate is a part of it, but the problem is the way we ingest this debate is all performance. Yeah, like and it's what I'm doing out there. I'm not trying to change people's minds I'm trying to find hypocrisy and comedy and right bullshit that is out there But I think like what you see what Charlie Kirk is doing what even some of the podcasts that are attempting to put two sides against one another like Inherently the medium is performance and the only way that you get engagement is to win, not to find some...

I did a podcast with Governor John Kasich where we tried to find middle ground. Nobody gave a shit about that podcast. There's nothing there that works within that medium. And so I think debate has always been a part of what the Democrats want. It's what healthy discourse has. But there's no place for that in an online

world that I think... But also in a black and white world. Yes. That there's winners and losers and that's it. The public discourse is broken down and what determines what a winning is and what it isn't is a whole other thing. But the more we talk about it, I just realized that, you know, if you can convince enough kids that weirdos are not to be tolerated,

then, you know, where do you go from there? And I just feel like we're on the precipice of, you know, stifling, you know, immigrant voices, marginalized voices, you know, art in general, as being relevant, that, you know, it just, we're gonna end up in this very sort of narrow space, this very myopic, you know, it just feels like whatever freedom of speech

that all these fucking, you know, libertarian douchebags were yelling about was just the ability to tell everyone else to shut the fuck up and scare them into doing it. They don't even know they're servicing that. Anyway, it's good. I would say where I do find a little bit of hope is all of these things scare me and we joke about there being no hope and I am not a hopeful person

but with these kids that I talked to, the cruelty wasn't there. My prejudice mind walked into a college campus thinking like all of these talking points from the right will be there as well as the Cruelest elements of the the MAGA talking points. Yeah, and that wasn't there. I would ask them about gay rights I'd ask them about Immigration immigration and what-have-you and they never took the bait That doesn't mean they won't take the bait That doesn't mean they're a year and a half from taking the bait, right? I was like, oh, this is such a learned behavior that isn't there in that 18-year-old

kid. There is a sweetness and a kindness who's drawn towards the attention and the talking points right now, but they're not necessarily drawn to the cruelty yet. And that gave me a tiny, tiny glimmer of hope that cruelty is not embedded into these kids. Yeah, I was working on this joke that it's not, it can never, I don't even know how to say it about, you know, the, when you have this division that there's, it's a small leap from fuck all of them to kill all of them. Yeah.

All it requires is permission. Yeah. And, you know, and a presidential pardon is pretty good incentive. Sorry. See, it's not funny. It's not, but it's real, Mark. It's important. This is why. So you're quitting podcasting to go back into comedy? Is that right? Jesus.

No, I never left comedy. Well, it feels like maybe stick this, maybe keep this podcast thing for a little longer. Well, we'll see where I show up. You know, it's just a, it's a matter of, there is part of me that feels that there is an essential part of the conversation that I could fill, but to be responsible for that and also then to, you know, we've been very careful to keep it, you know, emotional and personal and about, you know, people striving

to do creative things and trying to sort of figure out how to live and react in this world. But, you know, once you enter the political conversation, then you can't get out. And I don't know if it really means enough to just become that, because that's even more limiting. The one thing I can say about the way we did it was that there was, it was all a possibility, but once you start, there's no way, and I did political talk for, you know, a year and a half, two years, there's no way that you can not be a

puppet to the talking points. There's just no way, you know, whatever you think you're thinking on your own, you're not, it's, it's part of whatever that agenda is. And you can't get out from under it, no matter how much of an independent thinker you are, because you're servicing that. And I'm not saying it's not righteous, but is it what you wanna sacrifice your life for?

You're saying I have no opportunities outside of this political space. Is that what you, you brought me all the way out here to tell me that? I thought you didn't, weren't you into clowning or something? Improv, improv, Mark, improv. You didn't go to the Barnum and Bailey School for clowning?

It's close, it's called the Improv Olympic and we pretend to ride elephants. There's no actual elephants there. But wait, where'd you come from? What is Klepper? What is it? What is that? Well, like that far back?

Yeah, it's an interesting name. I think it's Dutch. Look at you, Dutch. I know, right? A big, a Lakey Dutch. I got some Dutch, I got some Irish, I got some German in there. So it's all that, so you're real Midwest?

Yeah, I'm a Michigan kid and then goes through Chicago and then moves to New York about 15 years ago. So you come from the Scandinavian farmers that they tried to get to farm that horrible land up there? Yeah, basically. Yeah. Yeah, it's the land of farmers and carpenters. Yeah.

I got some Quakers all the way down. Oh, wow. I thought I was a direct descendant of the guy who started the Quakers, George Fox. Yeah, are you? There's a lot. Well, there's a lot of George Foxes in my family, and that's what I was always told. And I did some research and he never had kids.

Oh. So that kind of snips it in the butt. See, the religious leader with no kids, that's a guy with vision. Yeah. If only they all thought that way. It stops here. I can get behind that.

Honestly, the Quakers got a lot of good ideas. Yeah, that's what I hear. They do. Most of their ideas is you figure out your own ideas. Yeah, well that's good. That's a good idea. I think Quakerism, it's sort of like Western Buddhism. You just go into a room and you sit there for a while

and if you have something important to say, you share it. Yeah, and see how that goes. Good luck. Maybe we show up for a protest every now and then. But that all, even that concept's gone sour with social media. Oh yeah. It's just a never ending sharing and looking for a fight.

Looking for a fight. But do you have actual Dutch relatives? Not that I have a connection to. I think we've been here for a couple hundred years. And so I have a little bit of Irish and English folks who are there. Oh, they came through Michigan or Chicago? They came through, yeah.

I think they all, basically they all ended up in Southwest Michigan, which is sort of where the Klepper Klan has existed. So you got some Dutch out there. Are they still there? Yeah, most of them are there. So how's Michigan doing when you go? Michigan, I still got a lot of love.

I'm from Kalamazoo. I mean, Michigan has an interesting, weird purple state. Guitars. There's guitars. Gibson. Gibson, Kalamazoo, man. Oh my gosh. Guitars. Derrick guitars, Gibson. Gibson's by Kalamazoo, man. Oh my gosh, guitars.

Derek Jeter. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, good. They got a Gibson factory downtown. Still? Well, they still have the old, there's an old pillar.

That they're trying, I think they're trying to turn into a hard rock cafe. So I think that most of the acoustics were made in Kalamazoo. And then I think the electrics, I know there's a Nashville factory. Yes. Yeah.

I think a company came in, maybe Heritage Guitars, came into Kalamazoo to try to kind of bring some of that energy back. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. There's a lot of Gibson pride in Kalamazoo. Well, there should be.

Like, there's not a lot of music culture in Kalamazoo anymore. No? Outside the verve pipe. We still talk about the Verve Pipe. Oh, they were good. They were good. I grew up working the taste of Kalamazoo

because my uncle ran it, and we had always had bands come through, and the Verve Pipe came through every year, and they played that song freshman every year, every year, every year. This before it even became a hit, and then it became a hit, then they came back and kept playing it every year.

But you felt part of it. I'm part of it. Yeah, they were nice enough to come. They were nice enough a hit. Then it came back and kept playing it every year. But you felt part of it. I'm part of it. Yeah. They were nice enough to come. They were nice enough to come. They're one of me. I grew up. And then I listened to that song as an adult, I realized it's about abortion, I believe.

Really? Yeah. So who knew? I thought I had a catchy hook. Which side of it? I think, oh boy. I think a fairly nuanced college perspective around abortion. Like abortion, my girl went through some tragedy,

but I'm here to support her, and I look back on that with a little bit of malaise and melancholy. Oh, okay. So they stayed out of the fray. I think so. There's not a lot of money. If you're writing songs, if you're just writing abortion songs as a Kalamazoo band,

that's a real tight walk. No pro-abortion anthems out of Kalamazoo. It's hard. It's good work if you can get it. But did you, were you aware of politics growing up? Somewhat. I was, you know, parents are like, I would say moderate to right growing up. What do they do? My dad's a brick salesman. Bricks. Bricks. Like all kinds? Like all kinds. Like he was essentially, he was on the road,

traveling all throughout the Midwest. Selling bricks. Selling bricks. Selling bricks. So he had a few samples in the truck? Always had some samples in the back. You gotta have a hat, right? A truck, right? Oh, you got it.

Well, he had, he would always, he's a car guy. Yeah. He would get the company car. Yeah. He would take care of it like nobody's business. Yeah. And then like buy it back from the company because it was better than it was when they gave him because he got attached to it

Oh, yeah, he was always like working that ankle. That's Michigan. That's Michigan for you. We drove around selling bricks Like what but like like do you know the difference between bricks? Do I know? Yeah barely I know cheap bricks and expensive bricks. What makes a difference? Well, I think like you go to big cities now and they're just fronts, essentially. Sure, well that's right. There's no real masonry. The Masonic Brotherhood that actually built buildings, not as many anymore. Not at all.

It's kind of crazy when you see brick buildings and you're like, wow, that took some work. They're incredible. Yeah, it's the best. They stick around. And now they build stuff and they put just these fronts up and they don't stick around. Yeah, stones or bricks. Yeah. Because it's just like shitty drywall behind that. Yeah. Or whatever. But your dad was working with the real bricks. My dad was a brick man, traveled all around. I remember that we had bad bricks in my house for the floor and the way that you can tell a bad brick is when they yellow

in the center after you treat them. Yeah. Yeah. So you just knew it was like, oh, this is a shitty floor right now. This is shitty bricks. We went cheap on the bricks and now we got these yellow centers. You always, pay money, it'll stick around. So he's a brick guy.

He was a brick guy, he retired. He worked that for many, many years. And like all businesses, they get smaller and smaller and get sold up the ladder to some big corporations. They start pushing people out. And then the bricks start coming from China and it's over. That's something you got China bricks and what are you gonna do with that?

Yeah, well, you gotta do it. Yeah. Nothing like my mother's boyfriend was like in the textile business. Is that right? Yeah, like, but he was an old man, but he still was in the game kind of, but you know, you can't get can't get, when you can't pitch

like the cotton mill here in the States, and this is coming from New Hampshire or whatever, and he just kind of got disillusioned with all Chinese fabrics. I mean, I watched my dad sort of, as he aged into the brick building, just in the last few years, I mean, it's the story all across America,

is like everybody's, they sell to a foreign entity, everybody's spending less, they want cheaper answers, and then the brick salesman who like, my dad is a charismatic, thoughtful, smart guy, sold bricks because he could drive six hours to the middle of Wisconsin, knew the distributors, and they were friends with Mark and they would buy brick from Mark. And then the company eventually is like, well, what if we get a 22-year-old, pay him nothing but give him a car, and then he doesn't have to make connections with these other people, he could all do it online.

Just drop it off, right. And you're just like, yeah, this is sort of how every industry is evolving. Well, that's what we lose. And I think that's why people are upset I'm quitting the podcast because we lose the human connection. 100%. And that's the big problem with everybody. Even when I was touring, you get these room full

of like-minded people, but they're not a community. They're just at home on their phones, freaking out with the rest of them. And then all of a sudden there's 900 of them in a room and they're like, oh, there's more of us. It's a big... Have you noticed, I feel like I've noticed a shift in audiences feeling just surprised to be around

so many other people who are excited in the same way. Yeah, no, it's the best. Yeah. And I'm also finding that, like, you know, staying true to the sort of like, you know, like what is happening is a fucking shit show nightmare that most people are aware of that. Yeah.

You know what I mean? They get the premise. Well, no, they laugh nervously. Because that's my biggest fear is that regular people, maybe many who didn't even vote, who don't even have a horse in the game, are just on a base level scared to fucking even engage in, get into the conversation. So when you say something that lets a little steam out, they're like, oh shit, you're like, it's a great thing.

But it's also a bad indicator. It's interesting, my shows, I kind of shifted, I got into the standup game late. I sort of shifted from doing a more traditional standup set to just, I would have such a split audience of people who are like, we are just here to talk politics, we're so fucking scared and nervous. Other people are like, don't fucking talk politics,

just give us standup stuff. And I found it really hard to sort of navigate like what this material was or where to start. I just presented as sections. Yeah, I feel like I'm not, I don't think I'm fluid enough with or have as many sections. So I just sort of was like, I'm gonna weave together a, this show is like weaving together essentially

just a narrative political show Yeah, people who are who are in it to be like, let's give this audience the most full show we could do that Sure, like I try like it was a for me in doing the politics that'll be on my my new special Like I realized what I realized is that there it's hard to to talk truthfully about politics in a non-snarky way within the right amount of menace and intensity without it being slightly self-righteous. So I really, in the couple weeks before I shot my special, I'm like, you gotta try to do this material

from a human place, as opposed to like, this is it, man. Like try to just take it down a notch so, you know, you're showing you don't have answers. And it was very helpful observation. I opened up on tour a little bit last year, like just, I was like, let's do less crowd work, more like Q&A.

I had like 45 minutes of stuff and I was like, people wanna talk afterwards. And I was shocked by the questions that were out. I was sort of expecting like, you know, politics questions mixed with like entertainment fun questions. No, they're going right for policy? Right for policy, specific policy. Like people wanted answers, they wanted help,

they wanted strategy, like across the board. I was like, I got stories about meeting Paul McCartney. You wanna know what Hotel John Stewart is? I got stuff to chat about. They didn't want any of that. There's no NDA on Stewart's height. No, I mean, he has, guy is so fucking short. I mean, he's so tiny.

He's like, what is he, 5'7"? Yeah, boy, on a really, really good day. Yeah. So, but yeah, well, that's interesting because that means that there is a lack of representation. Yeah. So, but yeah, well, that's interesting because that means that there is a lack of representation. Yeah. That, you know, that's a congressman's job. It 100% is.

And that's interesting that they're like, you know, this guy's on TV, he seems to know. Yeah. You know, they don't have the connection to their representatives. Mm-hmm. No, there's no place for them to dump this outrage and or ask those questions. Or to get their representatives to take a stand. Yeah. I mean, that's sort there's no place for them to dump this outrage and or ask those questions or to get their Representatives to take a stand. Yeah, I mean that's sort of the way it was supposed to work No, it's like let's get the clown to do it again improv mark. It's an improviser

Not a clown. It's a very different thing clowns use props. We pretend to use okay, very different. Okay, I get it I get it. I think we're all I include myself in the clown. Oh, okay. Okay, I get it. I get it. I think we're all, I include myself in the clown. Oh, okay, okay. The metaphorical clown. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like Neil Brennan did that great joke about what, just about politics and where we're at now. It's like, let's see what the clown has to say.

When did that happen? Oh no, it was a mass shooting. Let's turn on the clown. See if they have a perspective on this. A perspective on this. So you went to college for theater? No. I went to college, I got a math scholarship.

And this was the Texas A&M? No, this is, oh, for, no, I went to college in Kalamazoo. Oh, okay, okay. Texas A&M is where I traveled to for the special. Oh, okay, right, that's where it was. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you didn't go there. I didn't go there, no, God bless.

I didn't even know Texas existed when I was 18. Well, that's the interesting thing in relating to what you said earlier, just before I forget it is that the Christian element of the right is still, it's relatively subversive in a way. Like, I think there's not as many kids on board with the full Christian push as they are with the thrill of being able to shut down a liberal. Yes.

Right. So, but there is the people that are guiding the authoritarian momentum is a Christian, their Christian ideal. Well, and that was interesting with the Charlie Kirk of it all. Again, Texas A&M, take it with a grain of salt to a very specific school. Yeah. Probably one of the most Christian schools in America, right? Well when you talk to the people who were coming from that perspective

Yeah, they were not MAGA folks They were Charlie Kirk folks, right and they saw him as a good Christian boy who can articulate the Lord's words And so that's where Trump has those folks out there. It was like oh you can I Can bring up all of the things that Trump does that are un-Christian in nature. What's the flawed messenger framing? Yes. I think they've finally gotten behind like that as like, oh, but it's what he gets done. Right. And what he enables us to do. Yes.

Oddly, that was the same relationship they had with Satan. You just make a deal. We make a simple deal and everything's fine, right? There's no repercussions. We can get what we want to get done if we make a deal with this make a simple deal and everything's fine, right? There's no repercussions. We want to get done if we make a deal with this guy who's gonna destroy everything, but kind of fits our story. The guy's gotta come back. I think they maybe skipped over that part.

Yeah, I don't know. So, okay, so you go to Kalamazoo. I go to Kalamazoo. I go as a math kid and I find improv comedy and become kind of obsessed with that. Are you good math? Yeah, I was a- Like what level?

Oh, level seven. Oh wow. Yeah, pretty good. Yeah, I'm a level seven math wizard. You're like physics? I did physics, but like when I, essentially I got a scholarship to go to Kalamazoo College for math and realized like-

Really? I'm the kind of kid who is, who's really good at math in high school. Yeah. Cause I could put in the work yeah and I was smart kid and then I go to college and there's like eight math majors yeah and I just saw the difference between like a real person who's good at math who it comes to them like like a savant is good at music yeah it happens with math and I was like oh I'm a kid who worked really hard at math yeah and that's not gonna

care I'm like I could be I could get a B-minus here right and but these kids they ace it with the A And that's cuz you're in theoretical math once you get into college and everything is theory and I'm like weeping looking at this Like I can't learn this. Yeah, if you don't have the gift you'd have the gift. I didn't have it Yeah, and then they're like, oh, do you want to you want to do improv comedy that thing you saw in whose line is it? Anyway, like yeah, I think let me try this this I couldn't get through algebra is where I stopped really Oh, yeah I mean I somehow or another I pulled it out for geometry because there were pictures But the numbers and letters no good for me and when I'd see like, you know guys with physics textbooks

I would just look at those textbooks and be like what the fuck is in there It's dark the deeper you go there? It's dark. The deeper you go there it's dark, it's not sexy. They brought in, they could sense at my college that like people weren't super excited about their mathematical future so they they knew that the like everybody who was studying math was like we know that people say when you have a math major all you can do is teach math and that's not true. There's one other profession and they brought in an actuarial scientist, which is somebody who like figures out when you're gonna die and then bases

your insurance rates off of that. There you go. That was their sexy sell right there. You could have been a member of the dark side early on. Right off the bat. I could have been making cash at 22, figured out when my parents were gonna pass away. And denying them coverage.

Exactly. That was their big sell. It was was like ah, it's not just teaching It's this guy and you can imagine that guy not the most compelling human not an improv guy not an improv guy Yeah, they're probably like hey, whatever you want to fucking do. That's cool, man. Like this is great. You're not gonna judge me There's no wrong answer. Did you do in college? I did like they had a group They had a group? They had a group called Munkapult and I... Yeah, I fucking loved it.

A long-standing group? At that point, like four or five years. I feel like improv is kind of becoming cool on college campuses. Maybe cool is a stretch. But from my mindset, it is true. Like I was a nerd who, you know, was all about what are the seven things I need to do to be successful to get into college to do these things, to be a math major, and then suddenly this improv world is like,

use it in part of your brain, man, be creative. What do you feel? What do you care about? Go after that. It was great. Kalamazoo is right by Chicago where Improv Olympic is, Second City, and so I started going there on weekends. Just to watch? Checking that out to watch, started to perform a little bit,

and then as I graduated I'm like, I like this more than anything else. And how the brick salesman take it. You know what? Fucking great. Yeah. I mean, I look back on it and I am judgmental of how unjudgmental my parents were about it.

What did your mom do? My mom, she was a stay at home mom. Yeah. She worked in a prison to begin with, then stayed at home with us, and then she worked in multiple high schools as a secretary. And she was also a salesman. She sold baskets. She's a jack of all trades.

So fucking funny. I get my, any sense of humor, I get from her and my sarcasm from my dad. And as soon as I was like, I'm gonna go to Chicago and I'm gonna do improv and I'm gonna be a public school substitute teacher. And I got this math major there, they loved it. They would drive to see shows. And I wish I had like stories

of fighting against my parents support. But you don't. I don't, I don't. They were remarkably supportive. What is the, you know, sometimes I do't. I don't. They were remarkably supportive. What is the, you know, sometimes I do a little research. What's the Tim Allen connection? Oh, great.

So just a little here. Tim is my mom's cousin and my dad's college roommate. First cousin? First cousin. Really? Yeah, dad's college roommate in Central Michigan University. No kidding. So like, my dad would come home with Tim and met my mom. And a bag of blow.

And a bag of blow. I mean, those stories came out after I became a full adult. It was just fun. Fun Uncle Tim was on home improvement. Then you're like, wait a minute, what did he get arrested for? That was after college, I think. That was after college.

Yeah, my dad, that timeline is hazy when you talk to my father about what he knew post-colonial. But that, I think that arrest was in Kalamazoo. It was in the airport in my hometown. Oh really? Yeah, so Tim, Tim went through some shit. Yeah, yeah. But he was, that's how my parents got connected.

So he was around the family, you knew him? I would see Tim at Thanksgiving. Yeah. We'd see him at Lions games, he'd come back to Detroit, and then he got home improvement in the Santa Claus, and I was a kid at that point, and it was amazing seeing somebody you knew on TV. Oh yeah, that must have been like somewhat inspiring in terms of...

For sure, it's interesting thinking but like I don't think I... Still the idea of being finding any success or being on TV was very far away from me. Yeah. But like to see Tim do that, I think improv, I went into a totally, improv is such a different world than Tim's standup world. Sure. Like I was- He was a real road dog for a long time.

He was. Yeah. Yeah, and so like when I would talk to him about it, when I was getting into it, we just had a, we had a different vocabulary. Sure. Like I, he was like, you can come out and watch what it's like on a film set.

And so I did that for like a weekend, on one of his movies and it was amazing. But he was sort of like, hey, you know, I can tell you how to do it in the stand-up world. He was like, if you want to maybe be like an assistant, like you can come out and do this. And I was like, you know what? I want to be an improv guy.

This is the thing that I love. What do you say to that? I don't think he was like, all right. I don't think he got it. Well, it was a different generation. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't until after that generation where people started being delivered into the comedy industry from Chicago and from UCB and stuff. Well, I guess that's not true. Groundlings and then there was the original bunch from SNL were definitely improv people.

Yeah. It's always been there. But stand-ups are just these lone wolf weirdos that don't fit in with other people. So the last thing they want to do is collaborate on something funny until they until they need writers. Well that's what is funny. I like you know I love my Chicago time. I was there for nine years and I like we like crafted a I crafted a two-person sketch show with a writing partner of mine who's still working a bunch Steve Waltine and we brought it out to LA.

It had like nine sketches that wove some themes into it, very Chicago, but better or worse. Like Harold? Like Harold-y stuff. But it was like a thematic sketch show that we came out, we did it here at the Improv Olympic when it was here. And Tim came out to it it really grateful that he did and talking to him afterwards He saw it as almost like each sketch as like a pitch for a TV idea Yeah, and I think we were so confused by that I look back and I'm like I totally get it now Yeah, the time is a Chicago guy was like did you understand the theme? Masculinity and all this kind of stuff. He's like, oh here's out of these nine pitches. I like these two

There's something here and something there and that that was just totally like a different language. Well, that's helpful, though. It very much was. I look back, I'm like, Tim was spot on. He knew how to work in LA. Chicago, nobody in Chicago had any idea how to get jobs out here. Well, that's the funny thing about Chicago is that because improv as an art form exists primarily in that city. Yeah. So you've got these holdouts who are like, you know, don't sell out, the real art is here. It's the discovery, right?

Yeah, it's all about the process. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think at that time, like the only jobs you could see people getting were on SNL. Yeah, yeah, right. And that didn't, I mean, I feel, you know, old here in that there weren't videos online,

people weren't uploading sketches there, so it was all about whether Lorne Michaels came through once. Once a year, he'd check out one show, and then he might pick one of those people to be on stage. Did you audition? I auditioned in Chicago, I never got the New York call. Right, right. So you're there for nine years?

Nine years. And then you go to New York? Yeah. But by that time, you're a pretty proficient improviser, but did you, you know, what do you take from improv, like, in retrospect? Like, I mean, I sell a couple little things that get me to New York, and then, I mean, as far as what I take from it.

What was the lesson? I mean, I think the lesson, the stuff I do on the street is all improv. Sure. I think, and when I get to The Daily Show, I realize there's two types of comedy writers at The Daily Show. There's the improvisers and the stand-ups. Yeah, but for the Daily Show when you're writing the show the first half of the day is improv Mind second half is stand-up mind. Yeah, like it's all brainstorm. Yes to everything

It's don't judge as many ideas as we can. Yeah, and then the second half is like, all right, let's get this fucking good Yeah, polish. Yeah, let's play it off of each tag it up Yeah, and so I think like that was really helpful for me from a creative perspective. But in taking hits, you know, like, you know, as a comic, you kind of know, like, you're gonna, you're gonna tank. Yeah. But at least when you tank an improv,

there's someone's gonna pick up the slack. I mean, I think that's, I think, yeah, improvisers are much more social folks. Yeah. It's like, oh, I got four other people I'm bombing up here. Like we sync together. So you have, in Chicago got four other people I'm bombing up here with. Like we sink together. So you have, in Chicago, you're up 15 times a week just sinking. Sinking and loving and thinking and brainstorming and...

I guess it's easier to take the hit when you got a bunch of other people. Oh, 100%. Except for the one guy who's going, you fucked us, Jordan. Yeah, I mean that guy. But then you kick that guy out and it's just all love. He didn't understand us, he didn't understand. No, you create your own cocoon. That guy went into standup. He did, he did very well, much faster.

Now, do you and Tim talk politics now? We do a little bit. I don't see Tim a ton, but yeah. That must be interesting. It's fascinating, yeah. I mean, Tim is a great guy. I love Tim. You know, I see him. He's like a libertarian contrarian who loves to give you shit, loves to stir up things. So we will get into it. We don't see eye to eye,

but I've talked to a lot of folks like cousin Tim. Well, that's the weird thing about these, you know, he may not have been one, but there's a lot of these sort of old Democrats who became more libertarian once they got money, and then they just liked to shit talk. But there's a, what's the problem with that though? You know, like, cause Mammoth's a good example. Sure.

You know, where you're like, is this a performance piece, you fuck? Or is this like who you are? But what you start to realize about a lot of these people, especially the ones who are in politics, especially the ones like Mark Rubio or any of these senators who once had some sort of integrity, is that I guess once you make the change to feel empowered with the ideological point of view that's gonna enable you to survive, that out of shame, you literally kill the old voice

that you once had, and you no longer know that that was foundational to you. I mean, I think that's beautifully said. Yeah, I mean, I think you craft your own narrative out of the thing that you found that works for you. Yeah, and the other thing is just so I get it, but it also speaks to, you know, what are the, and I think there was a, that was the jarring thing

about the magnificent, horrendous defeat, was that there was no real guiding principles that were being maintained by these civic employees or elected officials. It was just really survival and shifting blame and trying to figure out how to stay in power. So there's no real democratic principles anymore. There's a couple of guys in the Senate that are still I think believe it Mm-hmm, and I think that's one of the things to to to credit and not completely diminish, you know people who are still

Looking to it a two-party solution for what's happening Is that I think that if they and I think John is this I think if you believe in it in democracy That you need to keep speaking the language of it as a means to finding a solution. And I guess it's good that there's still a few people with principles out there. I think they're there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sorry, I got back into the not fun part. No, there's hope in there. That's what I hear a little bit. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I've got to meet a lot of governors. Well, they're usually the best ones. That's it.

And I think that was something that finally hit me where I'm like, oh, the senators and the Congress folks, and there's some thoughtful, interesting ones who really are fighting. It's not their job to run a city. Exactly. Yeah. They can be, they can politic.

Yeah. In fact, if you're not in power, you better just fucking politic, because that's all you got. Yeah. But if you're a governor, you gotta make a fucking state work. You gotta listen to both sides. You gotta make sure the roads work.

Mayors and governors. Mayors and governors. And that's why I was like, oh, like Westmore, Gretchen Whitmer, like I was like, oh yeah, you have to get shit done. And there's such a disconnect with like, with politics and governing. And I think governing is such a different thing

than politics. Yeah, because it's like, this is where you gotta put, you know, boots on the ground and fucking, you know, talk to people who don't have the same political ideology as you, but have needs and are in trouble and go like, well, let's see if we can make this work. And they're grateful and then they go back and vote for the monster go like, well, let's see if we can make this work. And they're grateful and then they go back and vote for the monster.

Yeah, exactly. They don't learn, but that's what fucking governing is. And now you don't have a job and then you have to turn on the politicking again. But then you do have a job, you have to get shit done. Yeah, it's crazy. So your manager is Kirsten Ames? Yes, you know Kirsten back in the day.

We started together. I think that she got her footing. She produced my first big one-man show. She was at the Westbeth Theater, and then she got into management. Yeah, I think she gives me some love for getting her into the game a bit, but it's way back, man.

She's great, and she still runs her own shop. She totally does. That's the best. She's added Fred Hashigan on it, who's another manager of mine. But yeah, Kirsten came through Chicago back in the day. I've been working with her for, I mean, God, what? 17 years now?

No kidding. Yeah, so she, doing my improv shows, I was doing a parody late night show back in the day in Chicago where we'd get people come in, I would play a character, I would host a show. It got weird, it was fun, it was a bit experimental. And she was like, all right, I can work with this. So we're like, oh my God, how do we make this happen?

She's like, well, you gotta get out of Chicago. But I can point you in some directions. Right, and that's when you went to New York? I went to, I got cast in a little pilot, didn't go anywhere. Then I sold a pilot, wasn't very good, didn't go anywhere, then I sold a pilot, wasn't very good, didn't go anywhere, but then I was out there just hustling

to get a host apparel. To network or Comedy Central? Comedy Central. Okay. I sold a pilot, a scripted pilot to them right when I moved there. So what was the evolution? So you were working out at UCB in New York? Yeah, that was sort of my home base. I was teaching and I was doing shows there.

Okay. And then I was getting little writing, there was like little writing jobs for like VH1, MTV, reality TV, little acting jobs here and there. Constantly pitching, kind of making your own shit. And then Oliver leaves The Daily Show and that's one of those jobs that comes around every like three years, not very often. And they saw some of the pieces I was doing,

some of the videos I put out. I did some stuff with my wife who also we met in Chicago, also a comedian and we were doing web series together. Yeah. And they saw that and they invited me and my wife to, to put some stuff on tape. Okay. And enter into that process.

Okay. Um, when we do that, that becomes its own thing too. They goes through many rounds. They asked for my wife and me to go on tape. We get to the final round and they invite myself and my wife to come in and audition with John. With Nate Bregazzi as well was there. And audition with John.

It was one of those things that like, at that point I've been doing it for 15 years, and I never feel good at those things. That one I did. I walked away, I was like, oh, you know what? That one I did. You did the best you could. You did the best you could, you're like,

that was all right, that was all right. Also like what you feel, and I look back in retrospect with it, it's like that audition is, can you do this job, but also are you not an asshole? Are you easy to work with? Can you generate? That's where improv comes in.

Because what John does is you meet him and we go in cold and we just start playing around with the script. Which for me is like, thank God, I permission to like, I'm not funny with a script, I'm funny off a script. I can find it elsewhere. And that was my sweet spot. And so it works. My wife gets the phone call from Kirsten Ames.

Yeah. Who says, you didn't get the job, Jordan didn't. Yeah. She hands me the phone, I'm ecstatic, she's brokenhearted. And that becomes the struggle of marriage. That is exactly what. Yeah.

For the rest of your life. So that day. That will define you. 100%. At least for the next three or four years, that becomes the thing that is difficult to deal with day in and day out about work. It's okay now? It's okay now.

You got kids? One kid. Oh, okay. Yeah, a little four and a half year old. And now like the, so you get in, you're a correspondent. Yeah. And now like when John leaves, which was, that happened after.

Yeah, so I was with John for about a year and a half when he leaves. And so the scramble to man the ship happens. Yeah, yeah. And you're in the running. At that point I'm, I'd love to think I'm in the running, but I know I'm a pretty young guy and low on that totem pole. Yeah, but where's it at now?

What's, what is the plan? I think the plan, we, we, the plan as far as we know, is this rotation. And it works. I fucking like it. And is the, how's the audience? How are the numbers? The numbers are great.

Yeah? Numbers are great. Oh good. That's what they tell us, I think. Yeah. I would say from a work standpoint. In cable and in network, you can still get numbers. Exactly.

So I think like, the only, you know, for what it's worth, like all of the weird change, we've had the strike, COVID, Trevor leaving, the hunt for new hosts, John coming back, this rotation. Like what that sort of built out in the Daily Show was like, we now know how to work different hosts and keep sort of a similar point of view for the show, but with different host perspectives.

The digital stuff kind of exploded. So it's like, all right, you can, if you're not doing the stuff on the show here, you can kind of do this stuff. You can do long form specials. And you're not getting burned out. I think of it now like, John comes in one beautiful day a week.

I think he likes that workload. And I love hosting, but it's exhausting. So to do it for a week and to take a couple weeks off, go on the road, travel a little bit and come back is, I think it's keeping people fresh and keeping the show kind of able to surprise each other a little bit. Well, that's good. It actually makes sense where, you know, to be sort of, what's the word I want? Like, you know, when you have one host that all the weight's on, they're afraid to even take time off. Yeah.

You know, because, you know, the ship will sink or whatever. So if you can get something like this where, you know, people, either they get to like different guys or they like that it switches up or they like everybody. Yeah.

Yeah, it's definitely a way to avoid burnout. I think that's- And keep variety going. I think that's- And keep variety going. I think that's helpful for us. Yeah. Also, I like being in the field. Yeah. Like I hosted a show before this run here

and it wore me out and I could barely get out in the field and so like the ability to do a little bit of both keeps, it keeps you sharp. Yeah. Well, you're doing good work. I like the new one. That's the MAGA next generation. I appreciate it It was enlightening now. I got a fucking wrecking with Charlie Kirk. I'm sorry. I fucked up your algorithm

Well, what is what is that guy's background? Is he a true believer or is he a grifter? He's a he dropped out of college I think he is a believer in the MAGA movement, but I think in all things Trump he has found a blueprint for success, financially. Personal success. Personal success. And he stayed on it. He provided some cover for Don Jr.

helping bring a lot of this MAGA to campuses. And it was a small operation for a while. And then the bigwigs gave him a ton of money, hundreds of millions of bucks. And that's his thing now. And I think he's... Youth outreach. Youth outreach. He's willing to go to those campuses and talk to those guys and play the internet game. So I think he has found a lot of success. And I mean, you see this on all levels when you go to a rally, when you go to these events, like all the different people who have figured out ways

to financially make this work for them. Even at the lowest level, it's the people who are showing up again and again, selling T-shirts or again and again, getting 150 likes on the little Twitch stream that they're doing. But there's an ecosystem around the whole MAGA universe sure man where everybody knows how to get there You got a you got a grifter king. You got a grifter. There's your model exactly all right good talking to you, man

You too. Thanks Mark. Yeah Well there you go you can watch MAGA the next generation on Paramount Plus Comedy Central and YouTube hang out for a minute, will you people? and navigated through storms. Your spade struck the lid of a long lost treasure chest. While you cooked a lasagna. There's more to imagine when you listen. Discover bestselling adventure stories on Audible. Some things just take too long.

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Go check out ones from our early years like episode 358 with Mel Brooks from 2013. The producers get with the play that was big. That was surprising, huh? For you? Yeah. You had no idea, right? No, I was having fun. I was really just having, I didn't, I had no idea it would be a hit.

I thought, well, maybe it'll run for, you know, it'll be fun, it'll be fun. You know, what do you live for? You know, you live, occasionally you live for a grilled cheese sandwich and fun, you know? That's a good one, that's Mel Brooks from episode 358. To sign up for WTF+, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and

click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. I seem to be doing my interpretations of songs that I feel appropriate for the moment. So So So So So So So So Boomer lives, Monkey and Lafond the cat angels everywhere.