WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1664 - Ari Aster

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

As one of the members of the last generation who grew up without the internet, Ari Aster’s movies all deal with the ways our minds are shaped and influenced by forces outside of ourselves. Ari talks with Marc about how he uses the genre trappings of horror, farcical comedy and the American Western to explore themes of trauma, nostalgia, anxiety and humanity in his films Hereditary, Midsommar, Beau is Afraid and his latest one, Eddington. They also talk about his poet mom, his jazz drummer dad, and why Albert Brooks is one of his biggest influences. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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an accessible playground, a 55-acre sports park, pathways, and a library with enriching programs. Learn more at crossingslethbridge.ca. I'm Maria Postoniak, Consumer Affairs Reporter at The Globe and Mail. From investing scams to overpriced concert tickets, I cover the financial frustrations Canadians face every day to help you stay a step ahead.

If that's journalism you value, head to globeandmail.com slash subscribe. step ahead. If that's journalism you value, head to globeandmail.com slash subscribe. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck? Nick's what's happening? Where you at? How you feeling? I am going to talk to Ari Aster today He's a film director He's the writer and director of hereditary Midsommar and Bo is afraid his new movie Eddington is now in theaters shot in my home state of New Mexico also Ari Aster is home state challenging movie man, but kind of great. It's kind of great to see a movie that is provocative,

challenging, and not seamless in a way, not the narrative of it, the story of it. It hinges on a story, but it's what happens on the peripheries of the story and the characters within the story, and there's sort of sub-stories and psychological character defects and pluses that make it very interesting. It really is about, it's a very sort of isolated small town in New Mexico at the precipice

of the world changing because of COVID. And what that did to people's brains, what it did to politics, where it brought people's brains. And it also deals with the sort of weird humanness at the core of it all. But somehow or another, he tends to mash all the forces

that were upon us during that time. The Trump presidency, the Black Lives Matter protests, police action, masks, no masks, paranoia, radical politics that came out of it, government dubiousness, and just he takes on everything on a very intimate level through people and through small town dynamics. And the sort of broader idea is that this small town at its big story point is whether they should build this data cloud, I guess what, I don't know what you call them, cloud storage facility.

The thing that stores everything that makes us crazy. It was I highly recommend it. You will probably have to see it twice. That said this Thursday, July 31st, I'll be at the 92nd Street Y in New York City in conversation with Jim Gaffigan after a screening of my HBO special, Mark Maron Panicked. Go to WTF pod.com slash tour for links to tickets. Panicked premieres the next day on HBO and streaming on HBO Max. And that's also the release date of the bad guys too.

Also, new cat mugs from Brian R. Jones go on sale today at noon Eastern. These are the handmade mugs I give to my guests. This is the second to last batch he's making, so you only get two more cracks at this. Go to WTFMugs.co at noon Eastern today for the famous Brian Jones mug. Been doing a lot of press for bad guys. Full Junk It went to Comic Con for the first time.

They aired us in. They chartered a plane to take the entire cast in to do, I guess it's the big H room. I don't know, you know, I'm not a comic con. It was the big room. About 5,000 people in there. And me and the rest of the cast were all there doing the thing and doing the talk, got some laughs, showed some trailers. This movie is pretty dynamic for an animated thing, and I'm not an animated guy, but it's a seat rumbler, man. It's gonna be good for the kids, and I think even the grownups will like it.

And I'm not supposed to say that, but I believe it's true. It's a pretty exciting thing. So look, I do want you to know I'm reeling it in, people. I'm reeling it in, all right? Look, I know I've been a lot the last couple of weeks, maybe for the last 16 years. You know, it was a lot for me too. I've had enough of myself as well, believe me.

I'm exhausting, mostly to me. So I empathize with you if you've had enough of my anxiety trajectory in the last couple of weeks. I get it. It just happens sometimes. What can I tell you? I mean, it's just the way my brain is. Everything's coming in hot,

and I couldn't stop any of it from making impact and detonating fires. So be it. That is the way my brain works. Eventually, like today, maybe yesterday, maybe happened the day before, possibly even last Wednesday, eventually I reel it in.

All right? I compartmentalize. I assess what is really happening against what is disastrously speculative. I just try to shut down the shit generator, the psychic shit generator. All right? I'm having some success. As of this speaking, I'm having some success for today. All right, and I'm having some success as of this speaking. I'm having some success for today. All right, I Think it's just my my mind

It's just the way my mind prepares for change prepares for challenges and once the fires settle down I can sort of parse what needs to be done break that shit down into steps to be taken and get a fucking handle on It with the help of a few good friends who understand the dryness of the forest of my mind and at any time there might be a problem and we might need to contain the fires. Gotta have a couple guys for that. Maybe a therapist. I have two guys, a therapist and a girlfriend that is, I think, getting more exhausted as each day goes by, as they all do, understandably.

But look, I imagine that most people have some version of this process. It's just that I yammer about it, and I have a lot of different things going on, and not more than other people. I'm not saying that my problems are more than others. Some people have bigger and more difficult lives than me, certainly, but it's just the way my brain works.

I've always wanted to be a smoother character, folks. Maybe a cowboy of some kind. Maybe I am, actually. Maybe I'm like half bull rider and half rodeo clown. And that means I'm just riding or distracting bulls of my own making. The sort of psychological bulls in the mental rodeo ring of my fucking brain. But look, I think I feel better for a couple reasons. Yeah, I'm making some decisions about Charlie.

You know, I do have to be away a bit and I'm just going to, I was gonna board him. I know there was talk of giving him away, but I'll hang on. I love the guy and it's just too much. Yesterday I came home, there was, you know, tufts of hair everywhere piss blood. He's just he cannot Get past his buster obsession his beat the shit out of buster obsession

So I was I was gonna board him, but I said dude just board him in your house. I Texted Jackson Galaxy and I think it's gonna be okay for a few days and then I'll deal with it more hands-on when I get home and decide whether or not I need to put them on Prozac or how to fucking, you know, deal with the problem more efficiently. But to keep them separated, to keep them occupied, he's got plenty of room in my room and I just want to be away and have peace of mind and not spend the day waiting to hear whether or not my cats are killing each other. That's just, that's part of my life. And I also think I feel better because I think I had a major breakthrough last week. Alright, look, you guys know this. I've been playing guitar for a long time. Mostly alone, alright? Over the last few years, as some of you know, I've started to play with other musicians on stage

because it was something I wanted to do like my whole life. But I never pursued it like that. But I wanted to do it confidently. I think I'm an okay guitar player, but the confidence just never, it never came, you know, when I play with other people, I would feel okay about the gigs and the playing and the singing, which is not great and not really relaxed.

I would be very hard on myself after the show and during the show. Look, I mean, I know, I believe that I have a lane that I can be in as a singer and player. And again, I'm not trying to be a professional musician. Okay. And I don't expect to be like as good as professional musicians, although I do play with professional musicians. But I'm very hard on myself, primarily because I want to feel like I do it well for me. And these are things like as you get older, to try new things and to take the next step with things that you've been doing all your life or try to take a hobby or even a whole new thing, just try it. I'm not take a hobby or even a whole new thing.

Just try it. You know, I'm not talking about jumping off mountains or hang gliding. Maybe that's something that you can, you know, get better at. But I'm talking about creative endeavors. It's scary. It's scary. And as a player and a singer, I just, I fucking choke on stage all the time. I lose my place. I lose the words, I screw up the chords,

my throat tightens up and I don't sing well. It's fucking annoying. And I just want to be good at something immediately. Who doesn't want to just be good at something immediately? I mean, I play all the time. Why can't I just be good at something with other people and in front of people? Why can't I just do it immediately?

I mean, after every gig that are supposed to be fun, you know, I generally feel like I don't really need to do it again. Like I'm lying to myself. What's the point of it? I can't really play well enough. I'm not a good enough singer. I fucking choke. It's fucking annoying. But I did have, I made some progress. but I'll tell you about it in a minute. Today's episode is sponsored by Squarespace. And by now you know the deal. Squarespace is the best way to showcase your stuff online, your art, your podcast, your crafts, you, by helping you make a customizable website.

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and then use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash WTF, offer code WTF. Alright, so look. My friend Paige Stark, who I've played with and sung with in the past, we did a song together for that Love L.A. compilation, and she kept bugging me. She kept saying,

I got these guys that I play with that, you know, will get you, they get you. I know that, you know, I get where you're coming from, you know, as a musician, and maybe we should put these guys together. And I play with guys who are good, you know, Ned and Brandon, Jason, sometimes Jimmy Vivino, and we have a good time, but I always felt like, okay, so we kind of crammed together a couple of rehearsals,

pick a bunch of songs, just do our versions of it. I think the most time we spent on a song was probably Warfrap by The Grateful Dead. But you know, it's like, I want to feel like I'm really doing the work. It's like me in acting. These are new things for me really in the big picture of my life. And I want to feel like I'm doing the work so I can get better, you know, and be more consistent with it So I relented and I and I told the the other guys that I'm gonna play with this other group of musicians was Luke

Pac-1 Dan Horn Jerry Borges and We rehearsed like we really rehearsed, you know before I was just kind of jamming out loose versions of covers that I just wanted To do my way, you know Just sloppy and easier and we would rehearse like I said a couple of times a few days before the gig. Basically, it was good enough for rock and roll. I just never felt like I was really like doing the work to become better. Like, you know, really kind of doing the rehearsing and the practicing. You know, I always had the lyrics on paper in front of me and I knew the guys would carry me and I had fun kinda But I wanted to really rehearse and learn the process of making choices about songs and working them and getting the hours in to nail

Something that sounded like well rehearsed I mean, that's that's how you get good and I and I know I have to suck to get good But I'm kind of tired of sucking You know in my mind. People appreciate the effort, and I'm very self-effacing when I do these music shows on stage, and I'm kind of taking the piss out of it because I'll fuck up and stuff,

and then have a monologue around that, and I'll fuck up the lyrics, and I'll have the lyrics in front of me, whatever. So I started practicing with this new group of musicians, and we did it, and I think I broke through So I started practicing with this new group of musicians, and we did it, and I think I broke through to some other place, some higher place for me as a musician and singer. I learned all the words to all the songs we covered.

That's a first. I learned and rehearsed the structures of the songs, honoring originals a bit more than I usually do, and it just all paid off. I didn't choke. I didn't have the lyrics in front of me. I didn't make myself crazy. And I had fun and I did pretty well, I think,

all around the band was great. But the real fucking doozy of the night, I don't know, you know, I'm not a normal person. And sometimes I look back at the choices I make and I'm like, why would you even try to do that? What would you do? Why would you do that? I decided to cover the Taylor Swift song

that had a profound impact on me in terms of sitting with grief. I do a whole big bit on it in my special, which I told you premieres this Friday, August 1st on HBO. The song is bigger than the whole sky. And I wanted to cover it. And we decided the arrangement would be kind of like Mazzy Star-ish.

And it just fucking broke me. But my throat was open. Like I was singing from my gut. And it was kind of amazing. Like I made it through the last verse You know almost and then I I choked up. I didn't choke I choked up It was pretty raw and though on the last you know chorus You know it was pretty raw is very emotional, but but it landed and I felt I felt pretty good about it and

There's actually a reel of it on Largo at the Coronet's IG page. If you wanna watch me kind of do something that is the most terrifying thing in the world to me. And I actually think that that breakthrough, just the creative one might've helped, you know, lighten the load of all the other anxiety I was feeling. And I think that may be the cross to bear of the creative person, is that you need it to live. You know what I'm saying? So Ari Aster is here and I watched all his movies and all of them are unique, all of them are challenging, all of them are kind of provocative, and he's a real auteur, a real artist,

a guy with a vision that will, you know, he'll manifest his vision as he sees it, and that's a rare gift, and he's got the gravitas to do it after his first couple movies, and he's doing it, and this new movie, Eddington, is now playing in theaters, and it's not a horror movie. He's done a couple horror movies.

He's done sort of a three-hour lyrical ode to panic. That's pretty challenging in and of itself, but challenging movies are where it's at. That's the problem with this movement towards a Christian nation, is that Christian nation is that the type of Christians that want to take over this country are myopic and fucking boring, and anything that's different to them that doesn't fit into their purview deserves punishment or just complete disappearance. And it's movies like these,

and also things like the new South Park episode, or things like people speaking out through art or through their platforms that is much needed. In the big picture, it may not stop the authoritarianism we're living in, but it does keep the human voice alive and human creativity alive. It was a pleasure talking to Ari, and now you can listen to it as well. Looking for a community that has it all?

Welcome to Crossings, the urban hub of West Lethbridge. At Crossings, you'll find a vibrant village designed for living, working and connecting with top notch schools, a state of the art rec center, retail spaces and parks. It's morenotch schools, a state-of-the-art rec center, retail spaces and parks, it's more than a neighborhood, it's a lifestyle. Enjoy NHL-sized arenas and aquatic center, an accessible playground, a 55-acre sports park, pathways and a library with enriching programs.

Learn more at crossingslethbridge.ca. Slip into a deep restful sleep on a luxurious feeling mattress you can afford. Logan & Cove is named Canada's best luxury hybrid mattress. Designed and handcrafted in Canada, it starts at just $7.99. Melt into its plush top cover. Stay comfortable with cooling gel foam

and let supportive coils cradle you to sleep. Try Logan & Cove at home risk-free for 365 nights. And if you're a listener in Canada, we have an exclusive offer for you. Get a free bedding bundle when you buy now at loganandcove.ca slash podcast. Are you nervous? No. I'm always nervous to be recorded. Are you? Yeah, what am I going to say that's going to haunt me forever?

Oh, really? So you've got that paranoia. I mean, I do too. And now that I'm finishing the podcast, you know, I'm out in the wild. I have a producer generally that protects me from myself because he edits. So he'll say like, you know, maybe you shouldn't say that. But now I'm just out in the wild talking shit

and it makes me nervous. How long have you been unprotected? Well, no, I mean, the podcast, we're wrapping up in a couple months, but I've been doing a lot of promotion for my HBO special and I'm doing podcasts and I'm talking about the state of comedy I'm talking about politics and but the truth of matter is is that Only a few people really at a certain level are gonna give a shit and it'll probably disappear in three days Whatever that that is true, especially with the nature of just, I mean, everything. It just goes away eventually, unless it really sticks.

But people also love to go digging. Yeah, right. So whenever, you know, like whenever there's something new by somebody, it's always, it's a nice pastime to dig through their archives and see what pisses you off. Well, right, but I mean, but you just made a movie that was designed to piss people off in a very specific way on some level. Maybe not designed to piss people off, but at least to be provocative on all fronts.

So you're fortunate in that it succeeds in that so everybody can kind of pick and choose what they like or what they're pissed about. That's right. To see it as a whole, I think, is a daunting but exciting task. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I grew up really loving

just art, art that was provocative, but I didn't have the internet. And so it's a very different world. Well, yeah, because things can be taken apart and recontextualized immediately. Yeah. And so- And now it's all about just like casting your own,

like finding your stance. That's right. I feel like there's like, you know, how would I say this? The responsibility of like the audience or the viewer or the reader is different now than it used to be. I think it, it, it, it should be, I think. And I, and I feel this way when I walk into a theater. Yeah.

It's like, I, I want to submit. Yeah. To whatever the thing is. Yeah. But now it's so much about, you know, you're, you sit there and you have to find your take, and then you have to cast it, because you're also, everybody's just, you know. Yeah, I think that's true, but it's self-serving.

Because, I mean, the finding the take thing, and then you've got these sort of amateur or relatively popular critics or political pundits who are gonna use your work, you know, fragmented in order to make their point and generate attention for themselves. So the whole idea of functional art criticism or film criticism doesn't exist that much anymore. And I know you grew up in New Mexico, right?

Yeah. I was born in New Jersey, in Princeton, New Jersey, but I spent like a week there. Yeah. And then I was a baby in New York. Yeah. And then my parents moved to England for a few years, to Chester, which is near Wales.

Why? My dad wanted to start a jazz club. Did he do it? It didn't happen, no. But then we all moved when I think I was, which is near Wales. Why? My dad wanted to start a jazz club. Did he do it? It didn't happen, no. But then we all moved when I think I was seven. Yeah. I must've been seven.

And then we all moved to New Mexico, to Santa Fe, and then he started a jazz festival that lasted for a few years. I was just there. I just bought this ring. Oh yeah, yeah. I grew up in Albuquerque, and I too was born in New Jersey.

When, I know that, I know that. And you, and is that turquoise? Of course. Oh man, you fell for it, I can't believe it. It's a big one. Well this one I've had for a year, this is a Zuni ring. As I got older, for some reason,

because I grew up there, you know, I felt that I wanted to have something attached to it, it's not really, I mean, I felt that I wanted to have something attached to it. It's not really, I mean, I dig this shit. And the truth of the matter is, as far as jewelry goes, turquoise silver, kind of a native jewelry, is relatively inexpensive to get kind of a big chunky piece. I'm not sure if this is too big or not, but I'm going to try to rock it.

Oh, yeah. It's funny, turquoise is like, I had to really restrain myself from using it in Eddington It felt like just to it's kind of back it. Oh, no, of course. Yeah, it never left I don't think you didn't want to put one squash blossom on somebody's chest. You know, just another dangling you of turquoise I'm realizing I probably should have relented because it is just important. Like how do you do it without it? It's the only place it really exists. Sometimes it moves to Texas and then occasionally it shows up out here when there's a southwestern trend

going on, but it is definitely part of New Mexico. A huge part of it, especially Santa Fe. Oh yeah, I got it right on the plaza too. And it's got a kind of an exciting backstory this ring. The artist, you know, who is Zuni, has passed away, and the stone is from a mine that's been closed. So this is. Oh wow.

Yeah, it's got a whole bag. It's beautiful. Well, thank you. And I know you're from Albuquerque, that's where my family lives now. Oh really? I was a kid when I was an adolescent, I grew up in Santa Fe, but in Corrales.

Oh, of course they do. Yeah. Like have they been there a long time? They've been there since, you know, the year before I went to college, which is the College of Santa Fe, they moved to Corrales. So they've been there for 20 years now.

I grew up down the street. I grew up off of Rio Grande, you know, like right in Northwest Valley. Wow. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I know. Do you remember, I don't know of Rio Grande, you know, like, right, Northwest Valley. Wow. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I know. Do you remember, I don't know how long ago, were the buffaloes there when you were growing up?

On Rio Grande, there was a guy that owned a herd of buffaloes. You know, right past Los Poblanos, where the big curve is on Rio Grande, if you're coming west, there used to be an actual herd of buffalo there, that a guy owned. They're gone now. Wasn't there when you missed that, huh?

They must be, yeah. They still got the balloons. Sure, the balloons are there, yeah. Do you feel a connection to New Mexico? You know, when I was there, as a kid, I resented the place and I did not like it. And I think that has to do with having, you know, had like New York in my system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn't like it. Yeah. But now when I go to visit family, when I go home, I really appreciate it in a new way.

And shooting the film, I mean, the entire process of making the film was really, it brought me back to it and I really enjoyed it. Well it's beautiful. And I think you did a good job capturing New Mexico. But so, Thank you. Your folks were both in the art? Yeah, my mom is a visual artist who is a poet.

She moved from printmaking to painting and visual art. Printing at home or doing like high end printing, of moved from printmaking to painting and visual art. Printing at home or doing like high-end printing, like going down to Albuquerque to do prints at Tamarind or something? Well, it was in New York that she was a printmaker. And then she became a poet. And she's been a poet for a long time. How's she doing with that?

Good, she has had a book published and she's published several books and I think she's a great poet. You do? Yeah, yeah, she's great. She's really, I would say her work can be like punishing. Oh, really? In a great, in a good way.

I mean, you know, I'm her son. Punishing. I'm a guy who, you know, in my past, if anyone went digging has written some poetry. And, you know, I was, you know, I thought myself a poet in college. And, you know, what is punishing? Oh, well, let me amend that

because I didn't have the time to really find the words. I think her stuff is very honest and unvarnished and painful. And I find it funny, too, very funny. In terms of personal vulnerability, and the honesty and the pain, when you read her poems, you can see parts of her that

You're like wow that's happening inside my mom. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and I just recognized my mom in the writing. Yeah, and I Yeah, I think she's I think her her work is great and your dad's a jazz guy My dad is a jazz drummer. Yeah. Great. And when he was younger, he was on the road with, for a period he was with the OJs. Okay. Playing the drums. So he's a touring musician.

He was, yeah. So you had that element in your house, the lounge act element. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think he tried to make me a musician and I probably, I guess I rebelled. But I think what's amazing,

cause you know, in watching the movies, which I crammed a lot of them in, you know, and I've seen all the feature films of yours. Cause I don't like, first of all, I'm not generally a horror guy. Me neither. No, I know. I'm starting to understand that.

But I got it all in there, and it strikes me that your sense of freedom in terms of doing the movie you want to do, you had to come from some confidence in what art is. And it seems that you grew up with that. In a house full of artists, certainly a drummer who was maybe not a free jazz drummer, but the power of improvisation and honoring your own vision was kind of ingrained, I would assume. Yeah, yeah, I have to give my parents and especially my mother credit that you know, I I it's

You know when I was a baby, she yeah, she she would give me You know crayons and put me on like butcher paper and but I seem like you were like educated in like You know, my mom was kind of a painter at one point and there was a lot of going to the Museum of Modern Art And seeing the stuff and having your mind blown by art that was so ingrained in the family fabric, or at least my mom's desire to paint, you know, it gave me a sort of wonder and awe of art. Yeah. Did you have that?

Yeah, I definitely had that. And, you know, my mother is a tough critic, and she gave me that too. Yeah. You know, like I would, as a kid, like take her to a movie that I thought was good. Yeah. And she would, you know, if she didn't think it was good,

she'd be like, you thought that was good? Really? That was bullshit. And do you find that she's right, or do you argue with? Oh yeah, no, I think that was really hugely useful because it just, from a very young age made me, I think maybe at a certain point I was probably too censorious for my own good.

Yeah. Just like not really, you know, just like that thing I was talking about, right? Where it's like, are you submitting to the work and are you really giving yourself to it and giving it a chance to come into you? And that there was probably a period at which, you know, I wasn't allowing the work in, but I, I, I would say, you know, uh, a lot of my taste was, was, uh, was adopted from adopted from hers.

And from being critical and understanding the depth of any sort of final piece. Because you can be jacked around by art and you can be stunned whether it's a film or a poem or a painting, right? So a lot of times when you're younger, you're like, that's amazing. And they're like, no, this is garbage. And then you have to be like, why?

And then all of a sudden the depth of your kind of aesthetic understanding grows. And you realize like, okay, all right, this is the context of how I have to see art. And you were given that by your mother. Yeah, yeah. But you know, I have a lot of memories of seeing certain films with her in theaters

that were like, you know, formative. Right, like what? I would say the big ones, the big memories I have where like we were both kind of blown away. And it was really nice to kind of share that experience. Would be songs from the second floor by Roy Anderson. That was huge. The Piano Teacher.

Yeah. I think I was 15 when I went to see that. And that was huge. Yeah. Mulholland Drive. Her favorite movie is Defending Your Life, and that has, you know, that's for me, just a perfect movie.

I love it. Really? The Albert Brooks movie. Yeah, I love Albert Brooks so much. Comedically, oh, me too. Comedically, there are beats in that movie that if I think about them right now, I'll laugh. Oh, yeah. There are, because Brooks, like, you know, he'll put together, like, each scene is going to be a comedic scene.

And sometimes they string together well, and sometimes it doesn't matter. You know, but there are beats in that movie that are just spectacular. There's Shirley MacLaine in the past lives pavilion where she goes, Hi, I'm Shirley MacLaine, and you hear the woman in the back going Oh my god She's like so scandalized It's so funny Just yeah, he's I mean, yeah, he's he he's like a

master of like the the Prolonged like extended scene like a scene that goes for like 10, 15 minutes, but doesn't die. Yeah, well that's true. And all of it's sort of founded in his ability to stretch out a comedic beat. Yeah. The sort of, it's not even a tension he creates, but there's a kind of like, you know,

going back and forth with him that, you know, he can just keep going and really deliver all the way through. But that beat in Defending Your Life, where, you know He's like whether showing him his his shortcomings. Oh, yeah, and the scene where he's gonna you know ask for the raise Yeah, I'll give you a twenty-two. I'll take yeah, I'll take it Right away the first thing and even the guy is disappointed even the guy was like getting ready to that's it

Yeah, ten negotiate. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Oh, it's so funny. That's so funny, he was such a big influence, but not just comedically, but filmically. Oh, I think he's just, I think he's one of the great directors. Yeah, I love those scenes. Oh my God, have you told him? Yeah, oh no, no.

I have told him, and I wrote a bunch of stuff for, I wrote two big pieces for a criterion about his work. And so he read those and then reached out to me. And he liked those pieces and that meant a lot to me. Yeah, I'm sure it means a lot to him, you know, that you did that. Oh my God. Because I think he does feel a bit underappreciated.

Does he still? Because I feel like the reassessment has, I mean, I hope he feels appreciated. I know so many filmmakers that, you know, just worship at the altar. That's great, because it's surprising. I wouldn't have assumed that. Well, I mean, if you watch that doc on him with Rob Reiner, there are, at every turn, the movies do not do as well Yeah, so that's Rob Reiner. You know I mean there's this is spinal tap right which comes like I don't know five years after Or more yeah real life. Yeah, yeah in real life was the was the first of those the best That's that beat in where you know where you clearly see

Grote and you know asked for this extra shot. And he goes, can we not put that in the movie where he kills the horse? And Brooks is like, no, I think it's gonna be, yeah. Right, where he's a veterinarian. I mean, it's too much anesthesia, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he asked for it twice or something. It's so good.

But so, but what seems to be happening in terms of independent filmmakers in a real sense or people with a vision that for some reason right now, horror seems like a decent kind of genre to really figure out whatever you want in terms of how you want to make a movie. That the horror thing is just sort of a framework, but you can go a lot deeper with a lot more freedom as opposed to just, you know, do a movie that's not a genre film. Yeah. Yeah, I think if you, I think if your sensibility is on the darker side, it's a very good genre

to be working in. I might have even taken it a little bit for granted because these last two films that I've made, you know, have left the genre. And that right. And have not reached the same audience. Well, I mean, the way they build hereditary, like this is gonna be the scariest movie ever.

So, and a lot of horror people, you know, really took to it. So, I mean, that's a built-in audience of very specific people. Yeah, and I say that I'm not like a horror guy, but that's not necessarily true. I love horror films. I just, it's not, you know, I feel like there are certain people who like, you know,

almost exclusively watch horror movies. Like that's all they're interested in, and that's not me. I love a good horror movie. I think when those films are working, they're thrilling. And they can feel dangerous in a really exciting way. But I would say, I just find that it's, because it's a genre that kind of traditionally does do well, or right it can I

Find that it attracts a lot of like cynical people Yeah, and a lot of those films just feel cynical to me and just feel kind of like I I get bored easily Well, that's the interesting thing about hereditary is that you have this story You know the story of a cult, you know that you don't know is a cult until later in the movie But that's that ultimately is not what the movie is essentially about. Yeah, right So so you use this template to kind of explore whatever you want in a good horror movie You know may do that, you know, not necessarily on purpose. They're provocative in a certain way But it seems like with all the movies, there's a layering of

the frailty of humans, but also family issues, tragedy issues. So the backstories of the characters are much more in depth than just putting horror out there to sort of time fear. Yeah, I hope so. I tend to believe that the more invested you are in the story or the people, especially when you're making a horror film, which is kind of essentially, I think at its best, like kind of based on betrayal

and kind of like it's like, what's gonna happen to these people? And if the people are just ciphers, like who gives a shit? But if you are invested, then suddenly it can become a really complicated, like upsetting experience. And so that's the that I'm interested in that. But then I realized when I leave the genre, it's like I'm still kind of doing that. Even when I'm not there. But it really, like, the through line,

all the way to this film, like even at the core of Eddington, in the middle or at the heart of all this, you know, political conflict and, you know, sort of social conflict is trauma. Yeah. On some level. I mean, do you read that? Yeah, I'm some level. I mean, do you do you read that? Yeah, I do and I think in some ways

It's like quicksand that people get stuck in yeah opposed to like, you know, I I think especially at this moment Yeah, like the present is so Unpleasant and it's how it's so it's so it's so difficult to even think about the future. And also there's so many forces at hand that are destroying people's minds. The mind is very vulnerable. Exactly. I think it's very plastic and I would say at this moment it feels like people are really retreating into either nostalgia or trauma. But it's always the but it's the past, right? To make sense of the president.

Yeah, no, of course. I said president, to make sense of the present. Yeah. But the past is mythic. But like in Hereditary, you're dealing with this, psychological trauma that is not, the turn doesn't happen till like almost what, a third, halfway through the movie.

And so you're just dealing with this family that is strained beyond understanding because of the mother's experience with her own mother and her mother's passing. And also, like I was talking to my producer yesterday, you know, the decision to make her art, some sort of strange kind of attempt at control by creating these miniature lives and houses and everything was sort of interesting.

I mean, and when you make a decision like that to like, all right, this character is an artist and this is the art she does, do you have intention there or you just thought it was cool? Oh, no, of course. I mean, yeah, there's intention there. There's a character in Eddington played by Emma Stone who's doing kind of the same thing.

With the little dolls. With the little dolls who can't, there's something that she doesn't even really have access to because it's so painful. So it's coming out in these distorted ways. And so, you know, I find those dolls are, you know, the most access we have to her inner life. Yeah.

And then the rest is suggestion. Yeah, the rest is suggestion. And I think my hope is that there's enough there that you can kind of put it together, but you're with her husband who doesn't really understand her and who's kind of afraid to understand her. I think he senses the depth of maybe what has happened to her, but he doesn't wanna face it.

And so because he's our surrogate, she's kept at a remove. And so I wanted her to be kind of ghostly, but I wanted there to be enough that was evident to us that even just on a strictly emotional level that we have a strong sense of her. And I think that's a really hard thing for an actor to work with. What to play the damage and not let on. Yeah, not do something that's obvious and not like telegraph anything.

And I just think what she does in the film is really special and very subtle. Oh yeah, no, it's great. It just seems to me, first of all, in hereditary, the way you, there were definitely horror tropes that were identifiable. It always seems that when a cult, the cult members always look like your neighbors

or the guy who works at the hardware store. I like that element, because I said that to my girlfriend, who's a horror freak. I'm like, they always like, Lynch does that too. It's not that they're normal people, but they're almost like an amplified normal. Like, you know Just these regular kind of school teacher looking right in a way. Yeah

But it's like it seems like you have to do that They have to be that way. Yeah. Well, you know, I think the more that you bring the mundane into it the more disturbing It gets yeah because the mundane be mustached hard Horrifying, but I but I like the way you played all that with the corpses and everything else. You know, but I just want to, like, the way I read that final scene, you know, because it was brutal that you, you know, decapitate the daughter before you know what's going on. But I enjoyed that. Me too, me too.

And then when you had the mother kind of using that in her artwork, you know, that was a moment of honesty for her to try to grapple with her life. But it seems to me that the torment of the teenage kid and the relationship with his mother and her sort of overbearingness and then borderline abuse, I really felt that the final shot of the movie, that there was something I read into that moment

where he becomes possessed by the movie, that there was something I read into that moment where he becomes possessed by the demon, where he has this look in a very kind of a sweet way, like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. Like, there's confusion, there was a little bit of like, you know, this is fucked up, but there was also like, wow, this is quite, this is a high point of my teenage life. Oh, I like that. I like that I I Feel like he's almost like been lobotomized Wiped wiped out but yeah But the arc of the character in the struggles that he's had like you're like is it gonna work out for this teenage kid?

Who's had a hard time with girls and he's trying to have friends and he's like the weed guy and then all this shit starts Happening, but there was just this moment where he's like the weed guy and then all this shit starts happening But there was just this moment where it's like, oh man, this is fucking cool. Yeah, it's been it Yeah, it was a bumpy road for him. Yeah, right, but you know He's king now. Yeah, did you feel that? you know, well, I definitely like the idea of Having an ending that almost feels triumphant and where the

catharsis is, there's like an emotional catharsis where it feels like something has come to fruition. And where the horror of what that thing is, is sort of underneath the tone, which is telling you something else. Right. I do like a complicated tonal. Ending? Yeah.

Well, it's the same with Midsommar, because after all you go through with that film, you kind of feel good for her. Yeah. Like, she's arrived. She's where she needs to be. That's right. And it's gonna. Like, she's arrived, you know, she's where she needs to be. That's right. And it's going to be okay.

She's the May Queen. That's right. She's, she's, she's another person who's been utterly wiped out. But you know, but it's a, but it is a triumph. And that was a clear path, you know, because you went into the horror of her tragedy, you know, was, was graphic in the film, you know, to lose your family like that. Yeah.

And then the sort of being shattered by grief and detachment like that and almost disassociating, you know, that is a prime candidate for any sort of, you know, comforting support or to feel included. But I like that in that movie, you know, outside of the cult thing, that you did have that sort of horror trope of like, these kids are going to die. Yeah. And that is just something that we take for granted.

And that's something that I wanted the movie to take for granted. Right. Okay, this is a horror movie about like, American kids in another, you know, who are going to an exotic country. We know how this works. They're all gonna die, they have to die. Okay, fine, so I'm gonna do that. But I'm gonna like, barely pay attention to that

because we know that that's happening. So it was about somehow making that be done, like doing that so casually. Right. That that starts to get under your skin where it's like, well. How's it gonna go? Yeah, and then it's all about like aftermath, right?

Like, well, there are the bodies, like who cares? Right. This is gonna happen. And also like the, but you played those characters, you know, when confronted, but you play those characters, when confronted, because you played the horror, so I don't wanna say realistically, but in a kind of almost beautiful and poetic way,

that the humanity of these characters, when they're faced with that first turn, not unlike the decapitation and hereditary where that older couple jumps off the cliff because it's part of the ritual of this community. And that woman's face just blows apart. The reactions of all these, you know, they're sort of like, oh, we own one of them.

Well, I guess this is what they do and, you know, we have to respect that. And then there's the other sort of like, are you out of your fucking mind? Those are human responses that we're not kind of hacking anyway. I feel like you really let them play those for real. Oh good, well that's, yeah, I feel like that's important. I feel like, you know, that's sort of the fun of, well, it's the fun of genre filmmaking, but I find that the more I believe the behavior of, well, it's the fun of genre filmmaking, but I find that the more I believe the behavior of people,

the more immersed I am in the experience of the film. Like, you know, the minute that somebody is taking something in a way that I don't buy, like, you know, it's like, well, it's just like, okay, so this is bullshit, I don't care. Yeah, yeah, and the funny kid was really funny in that the Poulter yeah, yeah, well and wills a great a really great guy. I love it's just like that you didn't tell me We're going to Waco

I got I laughed out loud at that one yeah, and then when he pisses on the sacred tree Oh, yes, yeah, and then he just knew it was over. You know like he did tree. Oh yes. And then he just knew it was over. You know like he doesn't quite know. He's just like he doesn't know right up into it. And you kept a lot of the killing out of the frame. And then I guess a lot of people compare Midsommar to to Wicker Man. But I didn't I didn't find that the association bothersome or necessarily relevant. Well again, that was just one of the things that was like, okay, I'm making this film in this genre. I was approached by people to do that.

It's like, okay, that's an inescapable film in the folk horror genre. And so you nod to it and then you keep going. But I find the films to be, at their heart, very different animals. And then I, and Wicker Man's an interesting one, because I think it's just one of the best scripts ever. It's just a perfect script. Some of the execution is kind of goofy. Especially the musical stuff.

But I mean, I love that film. Yeah, yeah. But no, I thought it was beautiful. And I really do think it's interesting at the end of both of those, specifically genre horror movies, like you're kind of like, oh, they're gonna, good for them.

You know, like there is that, that in contrast to the horror, like you said, there is this element of deliverance for these characters that is not horrible somehow. Yeah, I want the feeling to be really complicated. I want you to come out with something that you have to kind of wrestle with. Sure.

Because I- I may be being too surface about it, but it was just that vibe of like- Well, no, I don't think you are. I think that's the, it's the, that I'm really interested in what, it's a very manipulative medium. Yeah.

Because, I mean, anything where there's music involved, because music is so emotional. Yeah. Like the minute you start using music, you're manipulating, whether it's for suspense or to make somebody, whatever it is, that alone. And then you have certain filmmakers who kind of

devoted themselves to avoiding manipulation, which you can't do. Even people like Brassone. Right, you can't really, because the nature of the construction is manipulative. Yeah, and I think the way that Brisson went about it was essentially to just alienate you as much as possible. Those films are really fucking strange.

Yeah, so when you do these movies, like, Correditary, and then moving into Bo, I mean, do you find yourself resolving, you know, there's a, and I've done this with singers, I've done it with writers. I mean, how much, you know, of you is in that in terms of, you know, dealing with your mother? I mean, obviously, with Bo is afraid, you know, this is like, I was thinking about it yesterday, where if you have an anxious mind,

you know, to the point of paralysis, you know, what your mind will generate as possibilities for anything that you're afraid of, is it's almost infinite. And it seems like this is sort of an experiment in following all those trajectories to their most extreme, you know, arc or conclusion. Like, it's really, it may be a comedy, but it's the horror of anxiety that you're really

living in to the point where, you know, what's in his head, what isn't, right? Now, are you that person? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very anxious, and I'm given to, you know, catastrophic thinking. Me too. I just got diagnosed with obsessional anxiety.

I'm full on catastrophic thinking. It's paralyzing. Yeah, it is. I would say that I, you know, I'm avoiding that diagnosis, but I could self-diagnose right now. I didn't want it, but as I get older, it's gotten sort of worse. And I was sort of like, well, I need to figure this out because it's sort of like, I wish my imagination, I had more control over it so I could just make puppets or whatever, or at least get out of myself,

but it's all driven by catastrophic thinking, a lot of it. And you just, did you exercise anything with Bo? Well, no, I mean, maybe to a point, I probably did exercise some stuff. In some ways, you don't even notice these things. Like sometimes things just like, you know, kind of drift off your shoulder and you don't ever see them go. Right, that's true. It happens when you get older too. You give less fucks. Yeah, it's just too exhausting.

It is. I can't care about this anymore. Well, I've been saying on stage recently that like, you know, the sort of connection between depression and anxiety from my observation is that Like if you're really anxious eventually your brain will peak with it and then your brain will be like, well, let's just be sad So it's sort of like the resting plateau between anxiety Episodes is just sadness. It's kind of comforting, you know, once you've depleted yourself with your catastrophic thinking. Yeah, yeah, which is, yeah, yeah, yeah.

At a certain point, you just get exhausted. Yeah, and you're sort of like, oh, this is kind of sad, I guess. Yeah, it all ends in depression. A little bit, but it's not, it's not only categorically like depression, depression. It's really just the the final stage of anxiety You know in in its movement. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, I'd say yeah, I

Talk I toggle back and forth. Yeah, but with Bo you knew like this is the thing about all the movies and why I sense From the horror movies that you know You were you were executing a vision that you were going to free eventually from genre. And with Bo, right, you just sort of like, fuck it. Which is, you had to write that thing and then look at it and go like, this is it. This is the movie.

Well, and it's a comedy. I want it to be funny. Yeah, well, no, there's definitely very funny parts in it, but there is that element I want it all to be funny for like to be honest. It's just that it's it's got this weird structure Okay, yeah begins in like this like 40 minute like Rube Goldberg kind of like climactic Yeah, quick thing right and it does this thing that you know anybody would would talk you out of which is if you're

Like you don't make the movie slow down. Yeah, like movies are supposed to speed up Yeah, and and Bo is a movie that kind of begins in like a frenzy Yeah, like manic way and then just like slowly grinds to This like, you know, but then it elevates into it, you know, it starts in a very sort of like, you know Frantic but very city driven Vibe. Yeah, and then it kind of like it moves into you know a type of almost theatrical You know props and it almost starts and then there's actually a play at the, like, it moves into this other zone where you're not even sure where you are or why you're

there, but it may start in a frantic thing that doesn't really have resolution, but then when it does arc into resolution, it becomes this sort of like, you know, crazy theatrical piece. Yeah. So it does have a build. Yeah, I hope so. And you know, it like... You have the giant balls.

If the giant balls, those are important. Yeah. It could be a play. I talked to my producer, Brendan, I said, because he thought that a lot of your stuff feels like you're kind of a playwright in a way. Interesting. Yeah, I guess that one, I don't know, maybe like Ionesco. Yeah, but still that sucks.

But I thought I talked about the balls would be great on stage. You know, the big balls. Oh, yeah. And he goes, yeah, like Little Shelf of Horrors. Oh, that's right. That's, yeah. And Bo is sort of like Seymour in that case. Yeah. Yeah, I love the Little Shelf of Horrors.

And that's a film, yeah, that's a film that, you know, kind of is supposed to have an Uroboros quality where it begins to eat itself. Well, yeah, it's like he, it begins with him like emerging from the womb as a baby, and it ends with him going back into the womb, you know. Right, but there's also that sense of wiring at that moment that, like, you know, he was doomed from the get-go Yeah, do you feel that way? Well, I think we all are in a sense. Yeah, it's all about it's all about you know, how you look at it But you seem pretty well adjusted. Maybe it's just you on the mic. No, it's just it's what we were talking about

I'm just tired now. Yeah. Yeah I'm in that I'm in the sadness. But did you know, I mean, you have to know that these films are going, like, there's an element of what you're doing that is specific and it's going to be kind of a challenge and that's being diplomatic to most people. Well, I guess I... I... I was surprised that Bo was... Was not a blockbuster? Was considered, well, in a way, I didn't think it was gonna be a blockbuster.

I knew that it was very specific, and I knew that it was like, kind of deliberately alienating in certain ways. But I still, you know, the whole time I was making it, it was like, everything here is designed to be funny in one way or another. And so for me, it was just like, I'm making like, it was like, everything here is designed to be funny in one way or another. Right. And so for me, it was just like this, I'm making like a giant epic comedy.

Comedy. Yeah. And like, I want one of those. So for me, it was like, I can't believe I'm providing this thing that I am so hungry for, like that's so exciting. Yeah, yeah. So this was your homage to Albert Brooks. Well, I mean, you know, I think I became aware of,

of like, you know, for instance, the influence of like defending your life on like the very last scene, like, like pretty late in the game, like while we were, you know, cutting it together. I was like, oh yeah, like this is sort of, this is sort of nodding to that. I mean, of course that's like so in my system.

But you know, it's sort of, as far as comedy goes, you know, I'm a comedy guy. Like I love, I love comedy. So you know, I was thinking about Chris Morris and I was thinking about, I don't know, I was thinking about Naked Gun and I was, you know I don't know, I was thinking about Naked Gun, and I was, you know, the Zuckers, you know, I was thinking, I was just thinking like, you know, I wanna make something that is like a gag machine, and I want it to go for as long as possible,

and a lot of these jokes are very different, and they kind of belong in different worlds, you know, so it's almost like we're jumping subgenres, which if you're in the city, okay, this is like, again, it's like Rube Gold worlds, you know? So it's almost like we're jumping subgenres, which if you're in the city, okay, this is like, again, it's like Rube Goldberg, you know? And then you go into this, the... The country? Well, next you go into the suburbs, right?

With Nathan Lane. And my first idea for that was, I mean, the first script was much wackier, and that was supposed to just have the terms of endearment like soundtrack playing, and it was just supposed to be like this bizarre parody of like a suburban. For some reason I'm getting, like do you remember Natural Born Killers?

Of course, yeah. There's a lot of comedy in that. Yeah, a lot of like really rough comedy. Yeah, like the laugh lot of like really rough comedy. Yeah, like you know the... The laugh track while Rodney Bejterfield like beats his family. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's a really interesting film.

I think Oliver Stone for like ten years, starting with probably talk radio, and then like peaking with JFK and Nixon. Yeah. He was doing really interesting stuff. He definitely did what he wanted to do. Yeah. Yeah.

And there's definitely elements of the insanity of natural born killers that heightened that genre. You know? Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely like everything in the kitchen sink. Yeah, that's right. That thing is.

Same with Bo, right? Yeah. I mean, very different films. Right, of course. I find, I hope that there's like sort of a sweetness to Beau. Yeah. Well, I think Joaquin brings that, like you can't help it. Yeah.

You know, like the way he plays, and even in Eddington. But ultimately, how did you feel about the reaction to Bo? Well, I was pretty sad that it was kind of so maligned. And there were a lot of people who kind of reached out to tell me that they loved it. And I really, that helped. But yeah, no, it was a bummer. Because it was a huge, it lost money. And critically, I wouldn't say it was reviled,

but it was definitely like, there is no consensus whatsoever. And then I would say, now it feels like I hear about it more and more from people, like, you know, and that it's like sort of being reassessed, which is nice, because I love the film. I'm really proud of it. There are things that I might do differently if I did it now. Yeah? Like what?

Oh. How do you correct a movie that's three hours for us? Three hours long. I think I, while I was making it, I was really excited about how exhausting it was. It was supposed to be exhausting, and that last hour is meant to be like a real gauntlet. And there are jokes where basically the joke is like

How long it's taking how long it's taking and like you thought this was gonna be something and it's a dick in an attic Like it's not it's like I'm gonna just completely do you deflate this whole thing? Which in some ways was there was like an aspect of like parody there It's like, you know, I I've already become kind of like known for a certain thing and I'm gonna like completely in the attic. I'm gonna upend it. Exactly. The attic. We're gonna go up into the attic. What's gonna be there is gonna be like, like just stupendously disappointing. You know what I mean? Just like, um, and I think, uh, like I would say I might, I would probably tighten the last hour in a certain way that I was not willing to in the edit there.

But you know, but these are, you know, I think these are all, all these things you take away after you release a film and you're just like, okay, it's out of my hands now. I can't really avoid people's reactions, responses. It's like, you, it's out of my hands now. I can't really avoid people's reactions, responses. It's like, you kind of learn something and you find like what you, decisions you made that you look like, no matter what the response

you're proud of, you're sticking with. And then certain things where you're like, I'm not sure if it was like worth losing that much of the audience for that decision. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like how, you know. Yeah, yeah, the balance.

Yeah, like I think I ejected a number of people from the theater that maybe, you know, I could have used them. With the balls in the attic, maybe? With the big dick in the attic, which I think that that's a good example of something where it's like that's, I think that's something I really wanted to do when I was like a teenager and I'm like maybe my early twenties. It's like something I really would have found funny then. And it was like, I was sort of doing it for him.

Oh good. Yeah. But then I think there's a point where I was like, you know, I'm not, I think that's more for him than even for me at this point where it's like I like need to do something to Yeah, that's a bit of an exorcism. You know it's like sure I I Always compulsively like drew these like dick monsters. I don't know what I don't know what that would you know says about me? Yeah, that I like I What's fine? I've hundreds or thousands of them of dick monsters. Yeah, it's just something that I just like went to.

Oh, she's like, I'm gonna do this again. And so it felt like, you know, okay, I gotta... This is the conclusion. This is where we land. This is the last dick monster. It's almost for my friends, you know? It's just like, alright, here it is, guys. Yeah, the guy who drew the dicks, he made a big one! Yeah.

Yeah, well that's good. I gotta watch it again now. Good, please, yeah. Get some friends in there. But Eddington, I watched, and what compelled you? You know, what was the seed of it? I mean, just like living in this country and living in this world and just feeling, I don't know.

Well, it's kind of an exploration of when and where it broke the country and the brains of the people in it in a lot of ways, where something was all of a sudden humans were taken out of the community of humans and sort of thrown into this kind of whirlwind of bullshit and politics and all the sort of fear and anger that was residing in the human community had now had a place to sort of go with the propagandized bullshit.

And it was elevated into this kind of divisive shit show, right? And this was sort of the cauldron of that. And you picked, you know, a small town to kind of explore all of what was happening in early COVID that now defines the end of civilization as we know it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, I don't think it started,

I don't think anything started with COVID. I think COVID just felt like the moment at which the door kind of slammed shut behind us. And it's like, oh shit, we're stuck here now. Something broke. Something absolutely broke. I think it was a huge inflection point. And I think we're still living through it. Right, that's what point, and I think we're still living through it.

That's what I mean, yeah. We're still living through it, and it's, I think, the moment where we were, like, stranded for good, you know? Yes. It's just like, well, now we're stuck, and how do we ever get out of this? Right, but the real demon, or the real sort of villain of the film is essentially propaganda. Yes. And people's inability to protect their minds or think rationally in a cauldron of fear and anger

and what they grab onto, right? Well, and we're living in this hyper individual individualized, like, you know, achievement society. Right, everybody's their own brand. Yeah, and we're self exploiting. Yeah. And so we also have an identity is so important to us. And so, you know, we these ideas we hold, these convictions we hold, like they're like, that's ourself.

That's our but it's also like, but where where are these? Are these are they really coming from us? Like but also are we really the source of those convictions? You know, like are we being fed these things but there are there markers of virtue on some level Oh, yeah, and they're they're not rooted in in principle necessarily that I just read a book about this It was a very difficult book But but what you know his basic idea was that communities don't really function or exist anymore, that people are unto themselves and what they are is just a series of markers that are identifiable

as a part of a point of view that really have nothing connected to it. And so that's an interesting idea that, you know, who are we serving? You know, I've noticed that with comedy too. I mean, if you're trying to get a clip to go viral, you know, you're not, your freedom of voice is really not part of it. It's how do I design this to be symbiotic with the corporate platform that's going to enable me to get this part of myself out there or how I want to be seen, right? Yeah But I thought it was I saw a little bit of a review that that yeah

I watched the movie and I found it, you know I had to really think about it and think about the humanity at the core of it and you brought in everything You mean you brought in? You know kind of a leftist young protesters you brought in, you know, conspiracy theorists. You had, you know, you had a character in there played by Austin Butler that was definitely Russell Brand-like. And I don't know if that was the starting point for him. He was, Russell Brand-like was one of several people that we were talking about. And you had, you know, the mother who was a conspiracy freak.

And then you had this fairly impotent legacy sheriff who's married to the old sheriff's daughter, who is indecisive, relatively mundane, and not that principled, right? Who evolves into, you see the brain break. Yeah. And it's easy to forget, I think, because everything is so politicized immediately.

It's easy to forget how much of the landscape we are projecting our petty shit onto, onto the architecture of reality. And that's a very important part of the film is that everybody is fighting on what seem to be ideological grounds, like really important ideological grounds. But just beneath that is just a bunch of-

Broken people. Yeah, people living in a small town who have personal histories. Yeah. And they get infected. Yeah, and histories. Yeah. And that... And they get infected. Yeah, and they, and they, and they're, you know, they're projecting. Projecting, but they're infected with information that's, you know, you know, quelling their anger and quelling their fear and giving them definition.

Yeah. But it's ultimately shallow. And I think that to play it in a small community was kind of great because, you know, it, it, it, it eventually infects them to the point where the community is impossible. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And I just, I thought like,

well, the framing was that it's a Western. Yeah. Were you conscious of that? Oh, 100%, yeah. And you know, and yeah, it's about a community, as you're saying, that is not a community. Right. They're living in the same rooms, and in the same, like on the same streets, but they're not living on

the same plane. Yeah. Because their plane is social media, or it's information. Wherever the... Yeah. And ultimately, the film is really about a data center being built just outside of town. That's right. And so these people are killing each other based on a lot of the signals they're kind of receiving in this, like, feedback system.

Yeah. Uh, meanwhile, big things are happening right over their heads. Uh, like, they're being changed. The world is being changed. And, uh, and, you know, and they're... And I, I hope that somewhere inherent in the film has this idea, like that there is big power out there.

And you know, and there's a big problem and it's not necessarily between ourselves. Of course. But in the end. It's dividing us. Yeah. Well, that's interesting because the basic, you know basic premise of the political conflict is it's about masks on a surface, but then it's really about corporate investment in a state that will bring jobs, bring money, but the devil's bargain is that you're creating a generator for the thing

that's destroying the fabric of community. That's right. And these corporations benefit from constant engagement in these ideological arguments. Anything that'll hold the eyes. It could be cats. Yeah. And I'm, you know, like, look, I'm left and I, you know, like, I've heard some accusations that the film is, like, centrist and I think that know like I've heard some accusations that the film is like Centrist and I think that's I just that what else is the left? What else is the left gonna say? Yeah That that that for me it feels like a pretty bad faith reading of the film and I and I I would say

you know for me it was important to It was an exploration of all sides yes, and I, it was important to, uh, it was an exploration of all sides. Yeah. And, and I think it's important to like question ourselves and also look, try to find the humanity and the people that, you know, we see as against us and that we, you know, abhor, you know, it's, it's, um, and that, and that, and that, that was part of the exercise for me was like was like, I'm gonna try to pull back as far as I can out of myself and take as sociological a stance as possible.

Again, as possible, right? Cause I only have my subjective point of view. And part of this was also like, when I decided to start writing this in 2020, in June 2020, I was like, you know, in Twitter. I was like, I wasn't posting, but I was retweeting. I was being, you know, in some cases, pressured to retweet.

And I started a bunch of like burner profiles. I started a bunch of just separate profiles. Like I started a bunch of just separate profiles and I got myself into different algorithms. And I just took like a lot of screenshots so that I wouldn't forget anything about the moment. But I also found like these algorithms I got myself into, I could not for the life of me get myself out of. And I tried, that was part of the experiment.

Okay, now that I'm here and now that I've I've kind of identified myself to this This feedback sis, yeah this feedback system. Yeah, sorry. I have a stutter that I'm In this case, I got Nazi. Yeah, right. Like right. Can I get out of that? No, I could not It just keeps coming for your brain. Yeah, it's just, once you're there, you're stuck. Yeah. Well, I just thought that the humanness at the core of it, the raw humanness, which is a guy that is supposedly the guy who's going to save the town if we're going to talk about the Western, an utterly impotent cowboy finds his moxie and his strength in, you know, in slander

to kind of turn the tables and, you know, as a like, fuck you, fuck all of it. You know, I'm gonna be this guy. You know, he crossed the Rubicon of self or whatever that is and became this, you know, doubling down monster. But he still plays it with a certain amount of sensitivity that is kind of crazy. Yeah, well that's important. I think, you know, and I want the film to sort of function as like a roller coaster ride of like sympathy, right?

Oh yeah, trick you around, yeah. Yeah, where, you know. Everybody's complicated. And maybe you understand them in a way you don't, based on whatever your politics are, right? Like maybe in the beginning, you don't wanna be this close to this guy. So it might be a relief when things turn.

Yeah, but I think that the miracle of the movie is that all of them, you can find empathy with all of them. Yeah. Really. You know, all the major players in the community system, you can empathize with. Some of them are obviously empathetic characters, but even the ones that aren't.

I wanted it to be a film that was empathic in multiple directions. And some of those are oppositional. And they're hard. Well, good job. And hopefully it's funny. I hope it's funny. Did you laugh?

I did it a couple of times. Okay. But again, it's not horror. It may be structurally a couple times. Okay. You know, but I mean, but again, you know, it's not horror, it may be structurally Western on some levels, it's not a comedy, but I do like when you, the ending is funny, but it's horrifying. Yeah.

But yeah, so I, you know, I, yeah, I'm gonna have to rewatch all your movies as comedy. Yeah. Just out of respect for you. I think you'll be able to find it. No, I'm not saying it's not there, but I get very consumed with the humanity of something. No, me too. Well, me too, you know. And then, yeah, comedy is relief.

If the humanity is profoundly dark, you may not come up to the point of like laugh out loud, but the relief is there. No, you laugh so you don't have to cry. Right, yeah, yeah. Believe me, yeah. The laughter that should be crying is my favorite. Hey, and you know, I,

and that's what's tricky is that the film is satire, but I never wanted any of the characters to be like objects of derision or, you, I I want to reduce I you know, I You know certain characters are more cynical than others But even but even they but even the most cynical bad actors in the film are all looking for community I mean sure, you know, yeah, yeah, some of them are you know, pretty bad But yeah, it's like satire in the on the level of you remember that movie Walker Of course by Alex Cox. Yeah, I love Walker that you know

Anachronisms of that film are so interesting and that's sort of like in that world of of horror satire You know, there's a lot of movies that ride a line with that. I'm a big fan of the movie ravenous I think I I love ravenous. Yeah. One of my favorite scores to the music. That is a genius title. It's brilliant. Yeah. That's Antonia Byrd, right? Antonia Byrd.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She also made that film Priest. Oh yeah, yeah. But Ravenous is a masterpiece. I love that film. I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm always talking about especially that score, which is Michael Niman and Damon Albarn

It's just one of the great that was some that was something of a reference for The music in this film. Oh really? Yeah, I'm sure yeah. Well, yeah, because that is a satire on manifest destiny I mean it is like straight up, you know, there's nothing it's framed as a horror movie But I think a lot of horror movies are satire. But that thing can only be read like that, and it's funny. Oh, it's really funny. Yeah. It's really bleak, it's really funny, it's really exciting.

It's hard to find. It is hard to find. I remember seeing that in theaters in Santa Fe with my friend, Zach, and we were just like giddy coming out of our theater. So much fun. So in closing, how's your mom feel about your movies? She's proud of me and she likes the movies. And she...

She's very supportive. I think, you know, certain things she likes more than others. Of course. You're never gonna get all... You're not gonna get everything you need. No. No, but no, I'm lucky in that sense. When Bo was afraid of flopped, my dad did tell me, maybe you shouldn't write the next one. But.

But. But. But. Get back on your feet. You might've been right. I, I, I, I also just a little shout to my, well, one of my best friends is Dan Clowes and he was telling me before I came over here,

like, oh yeah, Mark, that Mark, that's my best conversation. That's the best one. Oh good, yeah, he's great. He's the best. He's great. I love him so much. Oh yeah, all that stuff had a profound impact on me too. Yeah, his work.

Huge, Eight Ball. Oh, the best, yeah. Eight Ball was like, as big to me, like for me as a kid, as like, you know, Kubrick or any of those guys. Totally. Just, oh yeah, some of those stories are just fucking great.

Just so great. Yeah. And my humor just like, you know, that's just. It's there? Well, it's just, I mean, so much of it, I like kind of like found in his work. Oh yeah, yeah, me too. Okay, this is what I find funny.

This is what I love. Yeah, yeah. The underground comics in general are a savior to me. Absolutely. Well, say hi to him for me. I will. Great talking to you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. He was great, right? Yeah. Go see that movie, Eddington. It's now playing in theaters. Hang out for a minute. Hey folks, let's talk about OCD for a minute. If you watch a lot of movies and TV you might think OCD is all about being clean or being organized all the

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Try Logan & Cove at home risk-free for 365 nights. And if you're a listener in Canada, we have an exclusive offer for you. Get a free bedding bundle when you buy now at loganandcove.ca slash podcast. Folks, on Thursday's episode, I talk with my Bad Guys co-star, Awkwafina. Before that happens, you can check out my talk with another bad guy, Mr. Piranha, Anthony Ramos. I thought about quitting because I was like, yo, this shit is too hard, man.

What part of it was too hard? Just the auditions and being like, awkwafina. I can't be in South Pacific. I can't be in like, Ain't Misbehavin', I ain't gonna be in, you know, I'm not gonna be in Carousel. It feels like they've opened that up more now. Now, for sure.

Yeah, like now, I mean, I don't feel, I mean, I'm excited about, you know. But then it was still kind of like, you know, they're not gonna cast you. They only started doing that shit in the last, I would say five years, maybe. You know, where they really started to be like, oh yeah, let's open it up.

Cast him, he's good. But it wasn't, they weren't really doing that shit for a while. You were frustrated? I was super frustrated, man. I was like, yo, first three years of auditioning, I was like, yo, like, you know, first three years of auditioning, I was like, yo, like, what the, what do I have to do?

Like. Well, did they tell you to act differently? I mean, I had, I mean, you know, one of my teachers, and this was, you know, the teacher was just trying to help, but, you know, but I was just like, yo, they were like, yo, maybe if you grow your hair out, you might be a little ethnically ambiguous, you know,

people won't really know your race, and then you can audition for different roles. You can audition for white, and maybe Arabic and Latina. So many Arabic parts. Right. Good idea. You're right, I'm really missing out on, what to go from Latino to Arabic a lot more opportunity

Thanks for that advice That's episode 1441 with Anthony Ramos. You can listen to that for free wherever you listen to podcasts. To get every episode of WTF Add Free, sign up for WTF+. You can go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go,

this podcast is hosted by A-Cast. Here's some rock. ["Acast's Rock Song"] So I'm gonna be a rock star So So So So Boomer lives, Monkey and La Fonda, cat angels everywhere.